I have read several of the MB books, and let me say that if I could have a relationship that encapsulated all of the teachings, I think I could be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately that isn’t the way it is, and that is why I am reaching out. My other half thinks the Policy of Joint Agreement is stupid and unachievable. She has read The Basics per my request as well as starting “His needs her needs for parents” but she feels most of it is unrealistic.

I am in a situation and I am not certain what to do, I am hoping that I can get some advice.

For anonymity reasons I will call myself John and I will call my significant other Jane.

Although it may seem strange, yes I am the male half and I am the one looking for relationship advice. Throughout our relationship I have generally taken the typical female role and she has taken the stereotypical male role.

We met at work, became co-workers, friends and eventually became romantically involved. We were both in bad marriages (mine life-less and love-less where we hardly spoke, and hers angry disrespectful and resentful). We became a sounding board for each other and then became each other’s support system. I had asked for a divorce long before I met Jane, but for a variety of reasons mostly around guilt, I stayed and the rut continued. We eventually had a beautiful child, but as you would suspect, that didn’t fix anything. I asked for a divorce again, but this time I had enough conviction to stop the insanity and salvage the rest of my life.

Jane has 3 girls (14, 13 and 11) and I have 1 girl (5).

Jane’s marriage (as I am told, and what I witnessed at the very end), was full of torment. I believe after their second child, the marriage and the relationship focused away from the couple and 100% of the energy focused on the children. It became a competition on who could attain the most “love” from the children. The competition made them resentful of each other. It was if each tried to out-do each other. The girls were treated like princesses. There was no discipline, there was no disappointment. Every pleasure was fulfilled by one parent or the other. There were no rules. Even at a very young age (8, 7 and 5) each child had a TV, VCR, computer… in their own room. At dinner, each child was allowed to pick what they wanted to eat, so dinner could consist of 3 or 4 different meals, and no one had to eat anything they didn’t want including milk or veggies. Anyway, I think you get the picture.

When Jane’s Ex, finally moved out, Jane and I had many discussions. We talked about what we wanted out of relationship, what we wanted out of a family, and what we wanted out of life. We seemed to have a lot in common, we seemed to have many shared values. As Jane was in the house now with her three young girls, she told me how it was her opportunity to start fresh. She admitted how unhealthy the past had been. She started with small changes, which seemed huge to the girls; drinking milk with dinner, one meal for everyone, pick-up your stuff in family spaces, etc. The girls would complain, complain to her and complain to her ex, which caused her a lot of grief.

The competition was still on, but now more than ever. While Jane was trying to find her bearings in the new world of accountability, her ex was becoming the epitomy of the “Disney Dad”. Lavish gifts, expensive trips, and absolutely no boundaries. At first she was strong and resolute. Although it was difficult I felt like she was supporting us and our shared sense of right. She would call me at night and tell me about that evening battles, the disrespect from them and their hurtful actions and words. I hurt with her, as I couldn’t stand the thought of anyone hurting the person I loved so much.

Eventually I was introduced to the kids and started showing up more. Although we had a lot of fun, played games and did stuff together, it didn’t take long for the girls to start blaming me for the new change in mom. I saw how they treated her (and me). When she was giving them stuff or allowing them to get away with stuff they were happy, but as soon as the giving stopped they had no use for her. It killed me.

Not wanted to bore you too much, fast forward a while. Lots of ups and downs. But a pattern was emerging, although I seemed to be the only one to recognize it. Jane would easily slip back into old habbits. Things we agreed to would go by the wayside, promises broken, support wained; all to support the pleasures of the girls. Jane and I would fight, I would try to describe my hurt but she would be so defensive as to justify why giving into the girls despite our agreements. I tried to describe how I felt so much in second place and how all I yearned for was to be her priority and her mine, and in that we would become the foundation of our new blended family. At some point, Jane would put down her defenses, and see the love I wanted to share with her. She would affirm her love for me and we would mediate to a new set of shared values, just a little less than the previous.

This happened in repetitive cycles. One would guess months, but no, it was every three weeks. One week good, one week where the wheels started to fall off, and one week of me being on the outside of her family looking in. Then back to week one. I got so tired of it, I decided that I couldn’t take it anymore. I told her that this was terrible unhealthy for me, for her, for all of us. I told her we either go to counseling or we are done. So we started going. At first things started to get a little better. We were more like a couple. At home there was more balance, less stress and less fighting. Everyone seemed to know what was expected of each other. The girls were resentful (of both of us), but at least their outward attitude was less hurtful. We did family things together and had fun, but it was with moderation and balance. Accountability was beginning to take hold, and there was peace in the house.

But not for long. The girls started to rebel and use their dad’s as a comparison. The competition was back on, and everything we outlined went by the wayside. We went back to the three week cycles. Each time renegotiating from the last position. Each time moving farther away from our original shared values. Over a several year period, we had hundreds of counseling sessions. When ever the counselor broached why Jane felt compelled to please the girls to such an extent, Jane had angry outbursts. Whenever there was talk about balance and partnership, there was defensiveness. So the counselor started to take a different approach. She started to ask me to change; “why do you care what happens?”, “why do you think it is any of your business what Jane does with her girls?” I felt like since the relationship counselor couldn’t get us to be a couple of equals who shared everything, she then was trying the approach of getting us to be two individuals co-habitating and getting together when it was convenient. Well I wasn’t up for that too much, but I stuck with counseling anyway.

More and more the house became Jane’s house. Her house, her rules, her kids, her way. I admittedly became resentful of feeling like I was in second place, like I was always on the outside. She would tell me that it was my choice to be on the outside, but the only way to be inside was to do it her way. To watch her kids treat her like crap when they weren’t getting their way. To watch her try and try to compete, to please them.

Eventually, going to counseling was dreaded. I would say to the counselor that the reason why Jane hated to go to counseling is that “dictators don’t like mediators, because they have everything too loose.”

Over the years, Jane would tell me “if you would only spend more time here, I might feel more commitment from you and thus would be more committed to us”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only give up your apartment…”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only be done with the divorce proceedings…” (it was a multi-year event), and it ended. But each time, it didn’t change. It would change for a short time, but then it went back to the hurtful ways.

Ok, I hope you haven’t fallen asleep yet.

Finally it came down to “if we were married…”. And I struggled with this one. But I searched my soul and despite everything, I still felt like she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So I started planning, and I devised a very elaborate engagement, one fitting of the princess she was. Towards the end of my secretive planning, a new issue arose. Her oldest child, whom we had dealt with stealing from the kitchen change drawer multiple times in the past (dealing with it the way Jane wanted to), finally riffled through our bedroom and stole a significant amount of money from my bedside table. I let Jane know, but all Jane could do was blame the missing money on me, calling me irresponsible and unleashing her anger on me cutting me to the core.

We separated for a while, but then Jane reached out in a very loving and uncharacteristic way. She apologized, she apologized for not believing in me, not trusting me. She apologized for treating me so hatefully. But the most meaningful thing is she admitted that she had not let me into her life as a partner, that she had put the girls first, that she did not share and allow herself to be vulnerable. This was the most beautiful note, and one that I cherish. Although I had called off the engagement plans, I worked feverishly to reinstate them. I felt with all my being that she was my soulmate. The engagement was awesome.

For the first time, we went several months being in sync. It was give and take. It was a blend of both of us and we were good. Neither one of us got everything we wanted, but that was the beauty of it, neither one of us lost everything either. I thought we had found our partnership because we were just that good together. But now I know that it was because he hadn’t stumbled into the hard stuff yet. It was a lazy summer, but just before school started we were faced with our first big decisions. I lost the first one, I lost the second one, and now my radar was up. I shared my disappointment that the unilateral decisions were back. She made it clear that she didn’t agree with my positions and that she was the one that needed to make the decision. Things escalated to the point where she was telling her kids “forget what he told you, I am telling you that it is ok”.

I was hurt. I decided to go into work for the evening. She decided to give the ring back. I decided to move out. Giving back the ring hurt me deep. I couldn’t stand being hated by everyone in the house.
We had been engaged for two months, but upon moving out, I was gone for two months. We occasionally tried to get together when the girls weren’t around. We stopped going to counseling all together because I was tired of hearing how we should be together living separate lives and Jane was tired of being questioned at all. While I was gone, things in the house became more and more like the way it was years ago. It was a free-for-all. All pleasure. Occassionally Jane would confide in me the hurtful things the girls would do, the disrespect, the callousness, the lack of appreciation, the taking for granted. I stuggled to not blow up, because as those girls sit there getting everything they want and expecting more, as they complained and showed hatefulness, they had no idea how lucky they were to have what I wanted so desperately. They had what seemed to be so out of reach for me, no matter what I sacrificed. For the first time I admitted to myself how much resentment I had for those kids. I felt ashamed of being so jealous, but at the same time I couldn’t help myself. They were Jane’s number one and no matter how much of myself I was willing to give and no matter how hateful they were towards her, I was never going to get what they got.

After two months, Jane and I tried to give it a go again. She said she realized how putting the girls before me was unfair. She admitted that she was desperate for affirmation and the easiest way to get what she desired was to give into the girls wants. She realized that the affirmation only lasted as long as she was being a friend and not a parent. She admitted that she has been anything but consistent and that she has put little value on rules and lessons. And she acknowledged how hurtful all of that must have been to me.

And although those were all wonderful things to say, things didn’t seem quite right. Within a month, things were worse than ever. This time she exclaimed what I had felt all along “this is my house and these are my kids, and I decide what happens, not you. I am in charge.” These words cut the largest part of my heart out. I became numb. I stopped calling it our house, it is now her house. I stopped calling it home. I stopped calling us a family. I feel so lost.

She now flagrantly focuses on the girls, and my only choice is to be around or not. We are not a couple, we don’t have a partnership, we are room-mates in her house. She has affirmed multiple times that she wants to be a couple, but it has to be on our terms which means that her girls are off limits. The rules and guidelines that we agreed to and built so long ago are all but non-existent. Every day we become more distant. Her with her kids and me alone.

I should also mention when it comes to my daughter, Jane and I do share the same values. I find that the approaches she refuses to use with her own daughters, she is quite comfortable with when it comes to mine. The difference is, I don’t have an issue with her actions towards my daughter because I think they are reasonable and appropriate. When looking at other peoples parenting and the results through their children, once again, Jane shares the values we once agreed upon. It is only when it hits close to home that she believes those values are needless and over-bearing.

Oh and I forgot to mention that way back, about 8 months into our relationship, despite all the sentiments of deep love and everlasting commitment, Jane had an affair on me. I found out. I found out about all the lies and sneakiness. And she denied it, and denied it. But when she could not hide it anymore, she told me a partial truth, and then after more probing, another partial truth, until I finally gave up on probing. She told me that she was under stress because her and I were disagreeing on boundaries and how partners should treat and value each other. She told me that she was looking for an escape. She had also been exercising and she liked the feeling of being attractive and wanted. She told me she knew it was wrong, but she couldn’t seem to stop it. It hurt me beyond words. But this is another issue that never gets resolved, because every time I tried to get through some healing some other crisis would suddenly occur, and it was never the right time. And on the few occasions that I got the courage to bring it up, it was met with disdain for me for bringing it up. And ever since, when we fall into trouble and she starts acting secretive and like a single person, my fears and my radar go up. Do I think she is cheating, no (at least I hope not), but my emotions get the best of me. And would I bet my life that she has only cheated on me once, again I pray so, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. So not only am I faced with feeling like I am in second place, I secretly fear that I may be in third. I am a mess.
If I could resolve the hurt of the infidelity in my heart, I think we could put that behind us. But the hurt of being second, to not have a home, to constantly feel unimportant… I can’t get that behind me because it happens every day.

So this is way longer than I ever expected, but at the same time there are so many details missing.

If you have any advise, please don’t hold back.

Best,

John

John,
If I'm reading this correctly, you and Jane are an adultery-based marriage, correct?


And now Jane, an adulteror, is doing what adulteror's do. She is cheating.

When a person meets and marries a person by way of cheating (an adulteror), it seems odd to me they are surprised or complain when they cheat.

Jo

Sort of I guess.

For me, I asked for a divorce about a year before Jane and I got together. I was dying on the vine, I was in the marriage way to long and everyday it was killing me emotionally. It wasn't that we fought, we just didn't talk at all. But my ex nearly had a melt-down when I told her I wanted a divorce and so guilt kept me around. Every day I hoped that God would just take me away (I was suicidal, but if it was God's will...). For a variety of complex (health, not age) reasons I agreed to have a child with my Ex. The result was a beautify girl who I am now very close to (although primary physical custody is with her mom). My decisions have been questioned by lots of people including myself, but they have been made and I am trying to make the best of it.

When I agreed to have a child with my Ex, my soul knew that I couldn't be with this woman but at the same time I couldn't leave her without a child (too complex to get into). I talked with her doctor, and the advice was to wait to tell her after the pregnancy but don't wait too long because the longer it goes the worse it will be. Don't think that all of this came easy to me, there were many hours and many days I spent at the edge of the ocean asking God for guidance.

So did I have an affair? I don't no. My heart tells me know, but the courts say yes.

As far as Jane, she was in a terrible marriage (abuse / disrespect / resentment), but she was in it. I asked her one day if it wasn't for me would she stay in the marriage, she said probably because being miserable was better than being alone. I asked her another time and she said she wasn't sure, inevitably it would probably end because a person can only take so much abuse, but it probably wouldn't have been as soon. So yes, it would be defined as an affair.

Sometimes I wonder if that is why I am still with Jane. Is being miserable better than being alone. In my first marriage I knew the answer was no. But with Jane it is different. Many things are different with Jane. I know love like I have never known it before. With Jane I have emotions that I have never felt before. With hundreds of relationship counselling sessions behind me, I know because of Jane I am a different and better person because of her.

Since I am seeking advice, I am answering the question honestly. I am not sure what the difference is, but I guess my lack of knowledge is what brought me here in the first place.

I would duck if I were you, John.

Thanks for the judgement.

Although I probably deserve some amount of judging, I am not sure it is by you. It seems to be very easy for you to jump to conclusions. I am not a perfect person, nor do I profess to be. I have flaws but I am honest about them. And I try to be a good person. I live the motto "random acts of kindness" and I live it very often. My charity and good deeds are only seen by God and sometimes for the person/people I am doing it for. Does that make up for everything, no, but I have a good heart and I think God (who is the ultimate judge) knows that.

I have read every word on the MB site, and I have read multiple books of his. And I have to say I am a bit shocked and disappointed that the first piece of feedback that I get after pouring my heart onto this board is some cheap-shot judgement from you.

I have no idea what your story is, but your response is about you. Maybe you have been hurt, and for that I am sorry, but I had nothing to do with it. If you need a shoulder or an ear, I am happy to lend one.

But please know I came to this board for solid advice on how to save this relationship, if it is even possible. I know that I have something special here, and although I feel like it is slipping away, I care enough to fight for it. I would think Dr. Harley would acknowedge the importance of that.

Jane and I both say that outside of the kid issues, our relationship and love for each other is as near perfect as we could hope for. But as soon as the kid issues enter the mix, the wheels fall off. That is why I came here. That is the topic I need advice on.

So if you need to vent, feel free if it makes you feel better. But if you have something constructive to say, I am all ears.

John,

If you're talking to me, I'm not judging.

I said, "duck" because there are many on this forum who do not condone affair marriages (relationships).

They don't work, John.

If you start a relationship by cheating on another, you're going to get cheated on. It's as simple as that.

There's a lot of people here who will explain it a lot better than I can.

If you've read everything on this MB site as you said you have, you would know what I'm talking about.

Could you please make a few things a bit clearer?

When did your EA begin with Jane?
When did each of you divorce?
Are you now living with her and her children?
Am I correct that you are NOT married to Jane...yet?

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you rltraveled. I guess that is one downside of a flat message board, it is monotone, you can't direct comments, and sometimes things are lost in translation.

I was referring to Resilent.

What they don't have any knowledge of is the amount of time I spent with my priest going through reconciliation, I am not talking 10 a minute in and out thing here. It was indepth, and they listened and understood. And considering the first response and your thoughtful warning, I think they showed much more humanity than what I may be about to receive. In the end, I went through reconciliation. And if someone wants to question whether it was good enough, they they need to take it up with the Pope or maybe just take over for God himself.

And let me clarify, I have read all of Dr. Harleys writings on this site, not the message boards.

And I should further clarify that I read them during my current relationship, not in my previous. So I am referring to my relatively new enlightenment.

And in reading all of that, Dr. Harley and his sentiments and teachings never struck me as judgemental. His focus seems to be on making relationships work. He focuses on love. And of all the books I have read, he is one of the very few "experts" that stike a cord with me. The "love bank", joint decision making, love busters... they are all awesome concepts.

But I thank you rltraveled for the heads up. You are right, people can be mean spirited. Just look at the news and the media, ratings are highest when people can throw rocks at someone elses life. If I get a lot of negative and unconstructive feedback, I will just delete my positing and find a more appropriate place to get advice on relationships. I had high hopes for a sight whos core is centered around "the love bank", but maybe this is just an easy picking site for people with an ax to grind.

John,

BA109's question bolded above is an important one.

If you haven't married Jane, then I'd certainly recommend you enter into individual counseling and sever the relationship with her. From your initial post, it appears your emotional relationship with her started while you were both married. That is an "emotional affair".

Jo

John,

Resiliant is NOT being mean-spirited.

You need to read here, a lot, and you need to know that most of us here have been very much adversely affected by affairs, and the vast majority to not take kindly to affair marriage, myself included.

I would have rolled up in a corner and died, had my husband actually married his OW.

The idea of affair marriage is extremely painful to most people here. Not to mention. as I stated earlier, THEY DON'T WORK!

John,

Aside from Harley's "Marriage Principles", perhaps you should read the "Infidelity" articles by him. I think it would be of benefit considering your circumstance.

Here is what Harley writes about marriages resulting from adultery.

----

[color:"blue"]As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success.

That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. [/color]

----

Source: Click Here

All About Infidelity: Click Here

Jo

1of2,

Glad you found this site. Let me toss a few questions your way.

(1) Your GF/fiance cheated on her former spouse and now on you. This seems like a pattern. If this isn't the kind of relationship you want, maybe you should be distancing yourself from this woman

(2) What does your GF want/get out of the relationship? She doesn't seem to want marriage. And she doesn't seem to want you to be a co-parent. It is not clear to me that you want the same things.

(3) If you put yourself in your GF's daughter's place, wouldn't you think that in their mind, you've busted up the marriage between their mom and dad? I think to hope for a good relationship with these children is optimistic and naive.

(4) Blending families is tough stuff. In dating this woman, you don't seem off to a good start with her kids. In my mind, you can expect disaster if you get married.

- WG

You have got to be kidding me.

I come to this site for advice in helping me save what I feel is the most important thing in my life, and all everyone is focused on is how they were affected by an affair.

Let me give you a bit of a clue (I didn't think it was relavent, nor did I think I needed to but apparently I do)...

The weeks leading up to my wedding day, everyone around me started seeing signs. They would quietly ask me if I was sure I wanted to go through with this. They saw changes in her and in us that I just refused to see. I just said, things will get better. On my wedding day I was in the back of the church crying uncontrollably, my best man begged me to call off the wedding because he knew something was very wrong. I told him it was too late, we had a church full of people, things will get better. For several years I kept saying things will get better. Then I asked for a divorce, but she would have none of it. So I said things would get better. Then she got cancer, and who the heck can leave a person with cancer, so I stayed. You people have no clue the life I have endured.

And for Jane, she underwent episodes of physical abuse, forced sex, and torment. Her Ex would get the kids to talk trash about her, and treat it like it was funny. He would drink and I mean drink alot every night. He got mad at her for several weeks when they conceived their third child because she was took antibiotics for a cold while on the pill, when she didn't even want to have sex that night but he made her.

And that isn't even the half of it, from either of our past lives. You people have no clue what either of us have been through.

I would see Jane in the morning (before the EA) sobbing after a night of him getting drunk and screaming at her till 4am when he passed out, and then she had to get up at 6 exhausted to get the kids ready. This happened quite often. Or she would email me about some new "fat" or "stupid" comment he got the girls to say to her (she isn't fat and she has her MBA). She would be at the bathroom door at work as I came out after throwing up because I just hated my life. This wasn't some saultry relationship spawned from some perverted trist. It was humanity, empathy, listening, and support that brought us together.

Is there hurt in this world, yes. Have you been hurt, oviously yes. Does my heart go out to you, yes. But my God, I had nothing to do with the hurt you feel. Both of us did the best we could in the crappy situation we had. Both of us have gone through the reconciliation process in our church. Both of us are trying to start new lives.

I am very empathetic for all the bad things you and all the people like you have gone through. It is a tremendously painful thing. But I can't do anything more about that other than to say I am sorry that you as a human being had to endure the hurt.

Can you please direct me to the forum that is actually for people looking for constructive (Dr. Harley like) advice for "After Divorce: Dating and Relationship" advice with a twist towards blended families.

I could have easily omited a couple of sentences, changed a few references and none of you would have jumped on adultery. That wasn't why I came here. Had the adultry issue not come up, maybe, just maybe I would have gotten some real advice. I picked this forum specifically. I could have omitted some facts, but I was trying the honesty approach. I wrote 5 pages, and the focus is on 5 sentences.

John,

How you started your relationship with Jane is integral to your problems now. You cannot separate the two.

IMHO, if you're not yet married to Jane and if you two started this relationship while still married to other partners, the right and sane thing to do is to end the relationship and seek individual counseling for your own healing.

Jo

1 of 2,

You are telling us lots of things from both your past to justify the affair, that you have found yourself in.

You did not come here for advice, you came here for validation of your affair.

Sorry we don't give that here.

Dawn

1of2,

I would suggest that you make an appointment for one or two sessions of phone counseling with the Harleys. If you explain your situation they will give you the best advice. This board does not have experts on it. It has people that have been devestated by infidelity. Some have survived and made their marriages better, some have gotten divorced and healed personally. Others who's M didn't recover have their POV.

If you are looking for advice that you believe is sound, you will better off starting with the Harleys. And stay on the boards until you locate some that are willing to discuss your situation in a way that you feel is productive. The holidays don't always have the cream of the crop as far as good veteran posters are concerned.

Stay Pono.

Imi

Some things never change, do they? You've posted enough details already for us to see that you are in a train wreck of a relationship that began as an EA while both of you were still married.


This is why it is called an Emotional Affair, not a Physical Affair.

Sure, you could have left out the info about how the two of you met but then you would have received skewed advice. Is that what you want? You can manipulate the facts any way you like so as to get us to tell you what you want to hear.

1of2,

Even if you had not mention your GF's 8 month ago infidelity, you've posted enough to leave a lot of concerns about whether this relationship is healthy for you. Even if you hadn't mentioned the origins of the relationship, which coincided with the breakup of two marriages, you've still said plenty of things that suggest you are clinging to a relationship that doesn't seem likely to end up in a healthy long-term relationship.

Here's what I mean.

Your GF is not a healthy parent. For some reason, she has trouble identifying, and putting the needs of her children above some need of hers.

Do you today? Or where you possibly influenced by your 'rebound' relationship after your marriage ended.

And it sounds like she hasn't made other than small changes, and not for the long term.

Of course they did. You were what changed and perhaps the only one trying to change. Why are you trying so hard to change these girls and their mom?

Did it kill you, or your dreams of a perfect family. Your GFs ill-behaved children are her responsibility. Why are you trying to interject yourself on them?

Jane has a history of almost perfectly choosing her girls emotions over: (1) you; and (2) their better interest. None of us here at MB can change Jane. You can't change Jane. Only Jane can change Jane. Jane doesn't seem to want to change Jane.

It seems obvious that you will always be in second place. You are getting hurt in this relationship. Why can't you give it up? What need of yours is it filling? Why do you try and rescue her?

This is what you want. I am sorry to be the one to tell you, but Jane does not want this.

I'm not an expert in psychology, but I don't think people can change their values easily, if at all. At best you might have negotiated a set of shared behavior. But she values what she values, and you should look to actions, not her words to find out what those values are.

It was unhealthy for you. And it seems like it still is. What does Jane get from the relationship? Do you support her financially?

Wait until they are teenagers. You have no clue what you are signing yourself up for. Also, you will always lose to their dad.

They were never shared. You just projected yours onto her.

That's interesting and surprising to me. You both seem motivated to keep the relationship.

Did she direct the anger or outburst at you?

This is a good question. You are not their dad. You really shouldn't and don't have any say. You are not even a step father.

Do you share your D5 with Jane equally? (Why would you, with her impaired parental judgment?) Even if you do, you seem to have some idealistic notion of a perfect family. Real step-families have long-term issues that don't go away. You can't be an instant parent to Jane's three girls. They will never want this. You might be able to have a relationship with Jane where you are her BF/husband and not a co-parent. But you don't seem to be able to accept this.

Whose house is it? Since you gave up your apartment I presume it is her house. If you don't like how your GF treats you, why are you sticking? Do you not think you can find a healthier relationship?

That is Jane's issue, not yours.

She has consistently done this for what sounds like > 5 years. Why do you think it will ever change? Because you want it too? That's crazy thinking.

Yes. It will always be like this with Jane.

Keeping secrets isn't 'in-the-Harley' way. Most women I know would rather be involved in wedding planning.

These were her words. What actions since then has she taken to show you the place she has for you in her life?

In my experience, in-love intoxication is really a period of maximal divorce from reality.

You can't even make it out of the honeymoon period without crisis. This is not a relationship with legs.

I agree with you on that. Recall previous comment on teenagers.

Remember my point about her values not being your values. She doesn't share your values.

As is her right, married to your or not. Did you have a very male-centric upbringing, and if so, did Jane also?

How does your D5 handle this crazy family situation? Do you have custody, or visitation? Are you putting your child's welfare first by pursuing this relationship?


Obviously. Her values aren't your values....


They are. They don't want your sacrifice. They don't want you.

With Jane, you never will.

She said. Ignore her words. Listen to her actions.

I am sorry you are in a relationship with so much misery. Really. But you seem to need this relationship in a way that is not good. Even without referring to her affair(s), this relationship is not going to work. You and Jane are not compatible. You are not happy letting her raise her own daughters in her own manner.

It will hurt, but leaving Jane and finding out what neediness drove you to her is the best advice I have. When you are in a healthier, less co-dependent, place, you may find a relationship that is a source of joy for you.

- WG

This seems to be the bottom line. Poor decision making...even when others are waving big red warning flags before you.

As Joss Stone sings:

"I've got a right to be wrong
My mistakes will make me strong
...
Got a right to be wrong
So just leave me alone"

Aside from the fact that the entire family needs to be in intensive counseling - those kids are going to be severely screwed up by the time they hit 15 to 20, except perhaps your D, the big white elephant in the room is you and Jane's disconnect on what your goals are. But the disconnect is there because of Jane's poor life skills.

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that her children are majorly suffering - they are practically guaranteed to grow up into screwed up adults who will continue the cycle with their families.

You need to both learn about raising children, and how what you're doing is affecting them. I'm sure she loves her kids, so if you can get her to see that she is harming them with these bad parenting skills - maybe look up some disaster stories, so she can see the outcome for her kids - she'll be willing to listen to you. At the very least, the two of you need to go to someone who will teach you the basics of raising kids. And teach her that her personal issues - needing strokes, etc. - should not affect her making the right decisions for her kids.

If you could both get on the same page as far as the kids go, I think the other stuff will fall into place.

Well oneoftwo your patterns haven't changed either you married a woman that had red signs flashing all over the place, had a baby with her because? and now in a relationship that has yet again those glaring red signs again , trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I think YOU need to work on you first and ask why YOU keep picking the same type of relationship over and over.

Based on what you said, it's a no brainer. Dump Jane cold turkey. Spend some time alone. Focus on being a father to your daughter. Figure out what you want/need in a HEALTHY partner.

AGG

oneoftwo

None of this will make sense for you until you own up to the mistakes and bad decisions you have made. Stop diminishing them by justifying - you've made a couple of doozies (sp?)

This is not being judgmental - it is simply factual: you did things for the wrong reasons and in the wrong order. No matter how bad, miserable, unfair, loveless, whatever your marriages were, NOTHING excuses or justifies infidelity. NOTHING

If your marriage was dead, then divorce and THEN fall in love with someone else. Can't divorce for some reason? Then protect your heart against falling in love because it is just WRONG to do things in that order. There are moral and religious reasons (I'll skip those because the scripture quoters will be here suffocating you soon enough I'm sure). But there are very practical and ethical reasons too as people have pointed out.

So first thing you need to do before anyone can help you is to take responsibility for the collosal mistakes you have made.

John,

The "Best We Could" would have been to divorce your respective spouses before you ever become involved in another relationship.

Did either of you tell the church that you were having an emotional affair with a married person? A person which you planned to be with once divorced?

Starting a new life would be you completely on your own for a term learning to be single and taking time to be introspective of your part in the demise of your marriage in order to avoid making those same mistakes.

I wish you peace and healing, John.

God Bless.
Jo

Okay John...let's look at this realistically.

First, you need to understand and accept what you have done here. By the legal and moral (religious) definition, you have committed adultery. So has this OW, Jane. If you are a Christian, then you will need to fully understand what you have gotten yourself into and how bad it will get for you as you continue to live in sin.

Second, even if what she has told you about her husband is true...it isnt your business! It is between her and her husband. If he is abusive, she has recourse...which she has yet to take. Except for cheating on him with another man. But no matter how she handles it...or how bad things are at home for her...it is not your business. The most you could do as a co-worker and friend is to point her to the proper authorities, pastor, organizations...to help her do the right thing with regards to her husband. As I said before...it is none of your business.

One of the things the veterans here have learned is that adulterous relationships are built on lies. Lies to spouses. Lies to themselves. And even lies to the affair partner. How do you know ANY of what she has told you about her husband is true? Have you talked to him? Is there a police record? As I said, and Dr. Harley has stated in his writings...affair partners are notorious for saying whatever it is that will keep the affair going. Even lies. Affair partners talk about how bad things are at home. And then comfort each other by saying how good things would be between them, if it werent for their spouses.

We have seen this a thousand times. Your situation is not unique!! These situations never are unique.

You talk about your home life. And I will take your word at it that it is exactly as you spelled out above. So what?? None of what you have said about your marriage entitles you to commit adultery. Society says you can divorce. God says you cant. Now, if you want to go into the religious aspect of it, we can. But let's just take societal norms right now. If your marriage is as bad as you say...then you should have divorced your wife before entering into a relationship with another woman. Secondly, even if you were divorced, you do not have any right having sex and a relationship with another man's wife. And no amount of argument will you be able to make that will change that!

As was posted above, affair relationships have virtually no chance of working out. You have a better chance of working on things with your wife and things getting better...then of you having a long term reltionship with your affair partner. You can think you two are special, unique, whatever...but in the end, the stats dont lie! And as was posted above, Dr. Harley spells out why that is.

You are upset that there are those on here that wont help you make your affair relationship better. But what you are ignoring, or dont know, is that we already know that your relationship has virtually no chance. So, why would we do that? Why wouldnt we help point you in a healthy and moral direction that would lead to success, rather than try to help you patch the Titanic. John, this ship is going down!

We arent being mean. We are being realistic. Neither you nor Jane are being realistic. If you want help in doing the right thing (maybe even repairing your marriage...it is possible), then we are all here for you. If you want help in normalizing the abnormal, or us to help you make sense out of nonsense...well, that just wont happen here.

You may take all of this and just run away, saying we are all full of it. But what we know is that eventually, life wil ltake you to the point where you will remember what we said here...and admit to yourself that we were right.

And it isnt us being right, per se. It is just the facts!

If you were so concerned with the proper upbringing of Jane's children, why would you move in with her? It's hard enough for children to watch their parents separate, but then to have their mother share a bed with someone she is not married to must have finished them off. I hope these kids are in counseling.

These children have a mother and a father. As far as they are concerned you are just the guy shacking up with their mom who wants to boss them around. Will they change their view of you? Not in your lifetime or theirs either. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you want a relationship with this woman, you are going to have to have you own digs and date the way unmarried people are supposed to. Leave the parenting to the parents.

You know, I have been quiet because with all the therapy I have learned that much of what people say is about them and not about yourself. But I have had just about enough.

Are you a total moron? Didn't you actually read what I wrote? I am divorced and so is she. We have both been divorced for several years. You say "maybe even repairing your marriage...it is possible". There is no marriage, we are divorced.

I read commentary after commentary, and it is as if you people already have the answer and you’re just looking for the right question. I see postings that reference things I never even said. Or you just totally ignore what I said and you just make up your own reality. The person that said "Dr. Harley says no secrets, blah blah." I was giving her an engagement ring [color:"blue"] ******Edit******[/color], I don't think it is that unusual to plan it as a surprise. And it wasn't like what I said was complicated or confusing, it is just you read what you wanted to read instead of actually reading the words. There have been at least a half-dozen mis-quotes, but you people don’t care if you’re facts are right, you’re making this about you.

You people are so judgmental. God better look out because there is a new sheriff in town, all of you who think you are better than the Almighty. As I was very clear, I went through the reconciliation process with my priest. Yes I told him everything, yes everything. You know what??? I completed the reconciliation process, and God forgives. Do you? Apparently not because you seemed to think you are better than Jesus Christ himself.

I went back to that same priest a few months later to say I am still having issues dealing with guilt. You know what he said... "you must think you are better than God, because if God has forgiven you where do you come off having a higher standard." But maybe I should introduce him to you, because he said he would be interested in meeting anyone more holy than God himself. I am sure somehow in your [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color] you will find some reason to doubt the validity of the sacrament of reconciliation, as I said before, take it up with the Pope. You like to quote from the bible, well the bible also states that Jesus sent his disciples off to spread the word and to hold account, those that are forgiven are forgiven. But apparently you think you are better than God. Good luck on your judgment day, I hope He is a little easier on you than you are on other people.

And for those of you who want to cut hairs on Seperation Agreements versus Divorce Decree. Well, first if it weren’t for the totally messed up nature of our judicial system, maybe people would get the divorce decree before multiple birthdays went by. It is no one’s fault other than bureaucracy, politians, and inept lawyers as to why it takes so long. Don’t blame a person for trying to move on emotionally because it takes 9 months to get a trial date. It is interesting, that with a separation agreement, finances can be preliminary split, visitation can be setup, but as a person… oh no, you must be held prisoner until some judge and a bunch of lawyers figure out they have the time and inclination to deal with your issue. How many of you got notice from the court for whatever reason your hearing was postponed. I had one where the judge decided to take a vacation day and it cost 3 months. And somehow people are wrong to try to move on as a person because some guy on the bench decides he doesn’t want to come into work on day. Give me a break, get a clue.

I find it interesting how many (albeit not all, thankfully) come out of the woodwork thrusting their perfectness on people. This board is not yours, it is Dr. Harley's, and I believe he set it up for a way for people to seek help and support. Not fulfill a vendetta. Life is not black and white, life has lots of gray. Good gray and bad gray. And to ignore all gray because you are on [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color]. Your absolutist attitudes show your total lack of understanding and tolerance. If some gang-banger in LA shoots someone, I think everyone would agree that is bad, but if one of our honorable men or woman overseas shoots someone, it is unfortunate but necessary. This is the way most people think. Why, because life is about circumstances and nuances, and not every situation can be painted with the same brush. But not you, you are better than most people, for some reason you have ordained yourself to be [color:"blue"]******Edit******[/color].

You are like people sitting in the back of the room at an AA meeting casting stones at all the people that are there after a slip. You know why AA works? Because it doesn't matter whether you are rich or poor, doesn't matter what your drug is, it doesn't matter how bad it was, there is no better or worse problem... everyone is equal, everyone has a problem, and everyone can support. But not you, you are better than anyone else.

Dr. Harley is also quite clear that infidelity doesn't happen in a good marriage where the Love Banks are full. So if your marriage fell apart, what was your part in it? From what I have seen there is a lot of intolerance, a lot of judgment, a lot of projecting, a lot of condescending, and frankly you seem pretty miserable. All of which seem like Love Busters and maybe even Annoying Habits. How about accounting for you own behavior that drove to an empty Love Bank? How about you take some accountability? I bet you are the same type of people that like to sit in the front row at church looking holier than thou, and then nearly run people over rushing out of the parking lot after.

I didn't come here to deal with your issues. I came here to this site and this forum specifically to get some assistance with mine. Go find some victim website to troll on, and let the people that are trying to make a better future get what this forum was setup for.

[color:"blue"] [Edited for TOS Violation][/color]

"Don't think that all of this came easy to me, there were many hours and many days I spent at the edge of the ocean asking God for guidance."

It's not uncommon for adulterers to assure themselves that even God understands why they would betray their spouse/marriage for an OP. There are a few former WS's here at MB's who will tell you they once felt the same way.
But it's all just part of the adultery/addiction/fog.

Adulterers also believe that their new adulterous relationship is somehow special, another common false assumption. I guess that's why it comes as such a shock to them when the cheater they got involved with cheats on them too?

IMHO when two married people leave their spouses to cheat with each other, claiming the marriages/spouses they left behind were too 'dead' or horrible or whatever to salvage, in reality they are taking the problems with them into the next relationship. Because the truth is the adulterers are the ones lacking in integrity, effort, knowledge, etc. to make a marriage work. So you have two adulterers abandoning their marriages to build what together? Neither really has the ablity or intent to do the work needed to build a strong satisfactory marriage.

Adulteries are fantasy based. I'm actually surprised some of them last as long as they do. And the ones that do eventually last are probably only because the adulterers put the effort into the affairage that they should have put into the marriages they destroyed. But apparently most adulterers never realize let alone admit that. They just keep on swapping partners whenever their own failure to work at their relationship causes them to feel bored or disappointed.

This site is for adultery prevention and recovery. The same principles that help marriages recover after adultery aren't really meant to help adulterers somehow magically keep the fantasy alive long after reality sets in.

The reality of your situation is that you naively assumed your adultery partner was a person of integrity, somebody 'special'. She's not - she's just another adulterer who apparently had no more qualms about cheating on you than she did about cheating on her husband.

BTW, there is no valid excuse for adultery. Your marriage was your responsibility to work on. And even if you really did do all you could to improve the marriage, even if you then had grounds for divorce, then adultery still was not an honorable choice. You honestly do your best to build the marriage, then you file for divorce, then you wait until the divorce is final, THEN you get involved with somebody new. No excuses.

I have tried posting here at this divorce/dating part of MB's several times in the past. But each time I soon leave because I've always found it so littered with unrepentant adulterers that it sickens me. IMHO the Harleys should not allow all the adultery-supporting garbage that gets posted here as there is already enough of that filth on the internet already. Surely adulterers have other websites they can post for tips on how to break up marriages and attempt to ressurrect dying affairages?

John,

First of all...you need to stop with the name calling. I certainly have not called you any names! Secondly, I will deal with what you posted below.


Nothing I said here was about me. I was just stating the facts about affair relationships. They are the facts.


Maybe I did miss that. The reason I probably did is that...well, it doesnt matter! Your relationship started as an affair...in adultery. You cant undue that and normalize a relationship. You are with a woman that is willing to ignore her vows and her morals to be with another man. And she is with a man willing to do the same. And in such relationships, they are doomed from the start!


What you do not get is that it matters not what little minor differences are in your relationship between the "normal" affair. Because, the relationship started out as a lie and will continue to be hampered by that lie. You cant undo that!


Well, not sure who misquoted you. I will let them answer for that.


I did not bring up, except in passing, the Christian aspect of this. If you want to go into that, we can. But in short, I will say this...the Bible is VERY clear on adultery. It is VERY clear that God does not condone it. It is also VERY clear that a believer caught in adultery, and continuing adultery, will have a very tough time because of it (again, I can give you the Scripture references). Some denominations get away from Scripture, and make up their own rules...sometimes in conflict with Scripture. Sure, God forgives. But He can only forgive once you stop the sin. In these cases, God just steps out of the way and lets those that want to do it their way, reap the rewards (consequences) of their behavior (read Hebrews 10!!). Want a Biblical example? Please read about David and Bathsheeba and what it cost him to be forgiven!! It was a VERY high price!


Take it up with the Pope? How about take it up with the Bible. The Pope is a man...the Bible is the Word of God. And the Bible says something different than yo uare posting here.


Again, you dont know what you speak of! The Bible is VERY clear about adultery, about forgiveness, etc. And forgiveness isnt something you just say "I'm sorry" for. It requires repentence. And repentence requires turning from your sin. I once counseled a couple on here that had done what you two have done, and they married. And a few years into it, one had committed adultery. And there were a host of other issues. And I told them (they are Christians also) that it appears that much of what continues to happen to them is the consequences of their sin. As I said, Hebrews 10 outlines what God says about believers in rebellion. And the one part you can take away from that is that the believer in rebellion, no longer has a sacrifice for their sin (Jesus). For that sin they are in rebellion of, they get to take on the full consequences of that action. Now, God does have the right to take a repentent believer and take away the consequences of their sins. But He has stated in Hebrews 10 that He wont take away the consequences of rebellion.

Know what the difference between sin and rebellion is? Well, my boys know they arent to throw baseballs in the house. But let's say my 10 year old comes home and does it anyway, breaking a lamp. He has sinned against me and the rules of the house. Now, let's say I am sitting right there on the couch and tell him "dont throw that ball in this house," and he does it anyway and breaks the lamp. That is something ENTIRELY different! That is rebellion. And you can imagine how much more severe things would be for my son.

Same goes with this. If you sin, recognize your sin, repent from it...God can take away the consequences if He wants to. But, with the full knowledge of the truth (Scripture), you go ahead and sin and keep doing that sin...well, God has stated that He will NOT take away the consequences of that sin.

Your rebellion in regards to Jane continues. And thus, God has promised He wont take away the consequences of that rebellion. And what are the consequences? Well, they could be sexual diseases (not saying you two have them...just giving examples!). They could be continued adulterous relationshps by one or both of you (already happened, huh??). There will be mistrust. In my wife's case, even though we have reconciled and she has gotten right with the Lord, her back injury in the middle of all of this still plagues her and we are very sure (as well as our pastor) that God allowed this to happen to get her attention. And unfortunately, He has let it remain.


Oh, I have a clue. My situation went on for over 4 years!! We went to court twice (you can read up on it if you like). Did I break my vows to God and start up a sexual relationship with someone else during that time? Nope. You see, I made a promise...not just to my wife. I made a promise to God. And I meant to be a man of my word

Since you have said you are a Christian, then let's talk about that a second. Did you have the authority, did you have a Biblical reason to divorce your wife? If not, then God did not authorize your divorce. God states in Malachi "I hate divorce." He also goes on to state "I never change." Biblically, if your wife had commiteed adultery on you, you had a Biblical right to divorce. Outside of that, you were in rebellion to God.

God's plan is not first and foremost your happiness. It is first and foremost the ongoingness of the family unit. You two have destroyed two families. God was nowhere in that. He hated what both of you did (His words!).

I am not being judgmental. I am trying to speak the truth as outlined in Scripture, to a brother in Christ. I am not attacking you. My own wife did what you two did. And I dont judge her. But, even today, if we were to talk about all of this, I would stand on truth.


The last I checked, the 10 Commandments werent grey. The last I checked, they werent the "10 Suggestions." I am guilty of many sins. I still sin, it is our nature. I am not condemning you. This board is set up for all to come to, that is true. But, what I said in my first post had to do with the realities of the relationship you are in. Factual studies and evidence, as outlined even by Dr. harley, state that you are hoping against hope that your relationship with this woman will work out. And the odds say "no." And even if you beat the odds, these relationships are plagued with the consequences of the actions taken that started the relationship. Wouldnt it be better to have a relationship that has a chance of really making it AND of honoring God?


Huh? Comparing gang bangers murdering someone with a soldier defending himself and shooting someone in war? That isnt grey. One is murder, the other isnt. God says "Thou shall not murder." The other is allowed. That is as black and white as it gets.

Again, I dont think I am better than anyone. I look at many people and say "there but for the grace of God go I." I am just presenting the facts. The facts of what is shown in society and wit hthe studies. And the Biblical facts as outlined by God in His word.


No, not better. We are the people that get the drunk to the AA meetings. We are the people that try to keep the drunk out of the bars, and keep him sober. We are the people that actually care about the drunk. As we do you.


Very good question. And you can read all about what I did to create a climate in our marriage where infidelity was possible. I didnt meet my wife's needs the way she needed them met. I love busted in many ways. I wont go into all of what I did or didnt do here, unless you want me to. But suffice it to say, I was guilty of not doing what it took to be the husband that my wife deserved. But...get this...Dr. Harley also goes on to say that infidelity is NOT the fault of the BS. it isnt. Infidelity is the fault of the WS and the poor choices they make. You see, I had every reason to move on and find someone else. My wife had moved out on me and the kids. She was in an adulterous relationship with the OM. More than her, I had a right according to society, to just move on and be happy. Right? Wrong!! Because, I was still married! And I would have been committing adultery. So, why did my wife commit adultery, and I didnt...even though I had even more reason to do so? Answer that question, and you will understand all of this. And believe me, it isnt just the BSs on here that will say this. We have some very good FWSs on here, that will tell you the same thing!


Sure, there is misery on here. Adultery causes that! Am I miserable? Nope. I have never been happier! My marriage is the best it has ever been, we have a new child. None of that was possible without the folks here, without the Harleys...and of course, without Jesus. Am I intolerant of sin? Sure. So is God. With me, and with anyone. His punishment for sin is death. That is pretty intolerant.


Huh? Your statement here shows that you dont know what LBs and annoying habits are, in context of what Dr. harely is talking about.


I have! I have laid it all out there, even on this board! The good, bad and ugly. I even make mistakes today. So does my wife. But, there is no more rebellion. We are both get up everyday trying to do as the Lord wants us to. I have posted here many times, my concept of the Christian life. I call it "Begin again." When I stumble and fall, Jesus who is right beside me, picks me up, dusts me off, and we begin again. But, that would mean that I am willing to walk His path, not my own. So far, you want God to ratify a path that He did not choose, had nothing to do with. And has even says He hates.


Cant speak for others...but that aint me. And most people around here that have been here for any length of time, know that! As my pastor says, the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. I am not better than you. But, right now, the difference between you and me is that you are falling forthe big lie...and wanting God to ratify your decisions, instead of you following His. All I want to do is His will. If you felt the same, then you would not be entering into this relationship and would seek His will for your life. Again, the Bible is loaded with all of this, if you care for the references.


Uhhhh, I am not dealing with my issues! I have my marriage back...better than ever. I am here, like many veterans, to help. I am well versed in the MB principles and what they are for. I am also well versed in what Scripture says about marriage, adultery and divorce. I also have much research on marriage, adultery and divorce.

If I asked you if you would bet your entire future on a stock that only has a 2-3% chance of succeeding and makign money, would you do it? of course you wouldnt. But that is what you are trying to do. The odds of you and Jane making it are 3%. And you have bet your lives, the lives of your rightful spouses...and the lives of your kids, on a 3% chance of success.

That is why I am posting. That is why I am saying what I am. Because, I do know. I do know the facts. I do know what the Harelys have here. I do know what God has said through Scripture.

And you sir, are trying to ignore or downplay much of that in order to make the impossible, possible. That has nothing to do with me.

I know you want to make this work. But, again, you are betting everything on something that, no matter how well you try to meet needs and not love bust, will still be tainted and have issues. That is the facts of this.

So, instead of trying to attack the messenger(s), why dont we go thru this and go thru the facts and the word of God, and then make your judgments at the end.

Again, I am not attacking you. I have not called you names (as you have). I have not made false judgments about you, as you have. I have just stated the facts about what you have gotten yourself into.

oneoftwo:

I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.

I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.

I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.

There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.

But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.

I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.

The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.

While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

"You know why AA works?"

Because they don't serve booze at the meetings, they don't glorify or defend drinking, they acknowledge the negative consequences of drinking, they admit the drinking has to stop, and they assign accountability partners.

You basically came to an internet site that is for stopping adultery, and then asked for assistance in trying to keep a dying adultery going.

It's like you came to an AA meeting, while under the influence, saying you have no intention to stop drinking, and then acting all offended when you were told that your drinking problem is a problem AND that no alcohol is being served here.

Sheesh!

Great to hear from the good Dr. himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"But as soon as the kid issues enter the mix, the wheels fall off. That is why I came here. That is the topic I need advice on."

The best thing you and your adultery partner can do for the children is to admit to them that adultery is wrong, to end the adultery, and to do all that is humanly possible to restore the marriage to their other parent.

To do otherwise, while claiming to care about your kids, is in reality whining that the kids are interfering with your adultery. Adultery is like an addiction. And like any addiction it can get so bad that you even start to view your own children as less important than the next fix.

Also, with any addiction there comes a point when the next fix doesn't even give you that same euphoria anymore plus the naturally occurring consequences start to interfere with the high. So the addict increases the dose... or tries a new drug (the OW getting a new OM).

BTW, the excuses the OW is giving you for cheating with a new OM shouldn't be taken too seriously by you anyway. She was probably going to cheat on you no matter what. It's what cheaters do after all. If it wasn't one excuse it would be another. I'm surprised you actually tried to go to counseling with her and to fix the problems. If she were that sort of person she would have worked on her marriage instead of cheating on her husband. Are you starting to catch on that even if one partner genuinely wants to meet the other's EN's and makes efforts to do so, that is still no guarantee? Cheaters cheat. It has far more to do with the cheater than whomever they are cheating on.

Sure, meeting your spouse's EN's helps to protect against adultery, but the flip side of that is to NEVER allow any OP to meet your EN's, even if your spouse isn't perfect and doesn't always meet them. It was YOUR responsibility to inform your BW what your most important EN's were, to make sure she had ample opportunity to meet your EN's, AND to NOT allow the OW to meet them, PLUS to do your best to meet your BW's EN's. Your wife's failure to meet your EN's was just as much your failure too because you allowed an OW to meet your EN's.

It's about integrity. People with integrity don't cheat; people without integrity do cheat. And that is just as much a factor as meeting EN's. EN's is a MB principle because it is something that the BS can control to some extent, can help prevent adultery. But even doing your best to meet EN's doesn't trump a serial cheater's general lack of integrity.

I TOTALLY agree with Pieta!:

"If you were so concerned with the proper upbringing of Jane's children, why would you move in with her? It's hard enough for children to watch their parents separate, but then to have their mother share a bed with someone she is not married to must have finished them off. I hope these kids are in counseling.
These children have a mother and a father. As far as they are concerned you are just the guy shacking up with their mom who wants to boss them around. Will they change their view of you? Not in your lifetime or theirs either. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. If you want a relationship with this woman, you are going to have to have you own digs and date the way unmarried people are supposed to. Leave the parenting to the parents."

You are NOT the parent of your adultery partner's kids - PERIOD! You are not even their step-parent. You are just one of the guys she's cheated on her husband with. IMHO it is very difficult for children to respect the authority of an adulterous parent, let alone the inappropriately presumed authority of one of her OM. Why should they respect you two (or three counting newest OM)? Did you honestly expect her kids to welcome your interference in their lives? LOL

Also, it seems your motive for wanting her kids to be raised differently are selfish. You want her to make changes in her parenting so that your adultery with her can continue with less friction. Has it never occurred to you that just maybe her kids do not want their mother cheating on their father with OM? Maybe the best chance of those kids being raised with reasonable limits is for you to stop cheating with their mother and allow their parents the best chance of recovering their marriage?

Her kids already have a father. Her marriage to her husband was none of your business and the parenting of THEIR kids is none of your business.

You had your own wife, marriage, and child that you have responsibilities to. Why would anyone take your concerns for an OW's kids seriously when you have allowed adultery to distract you from your own wife/marriage/child?

A genuine concern for her kids could be exhibited by refusing to be one of her adultery partners. I'm willing to bet that if you went to her kids and apologized for playing a role in the destruction of their family, admit to them it was wrong for you to help her cheat on their father, AND that you will stay out of their home and business, that you will stop the adultery with their mother, THEN they will gain some respect for you.

Again, they already have a father. Why would his children show respect for an OM who showed so little respect for their father?

Whatever parenting problems exist are none of your business and IMHO far less damaging anyway than seeing their mother cheat with OM!

Wonderful to hear from you, Dr. Harley.

Very inspiring post.

Jo

oneoftwo - just to put things in perspective, it is EXTREMELY rare for Dr. Harley to personally jump into these threads, so try to appreciate the fact that he chose to address your situation directly.

Howdy, Dr Harley! Good to see you over here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


AA does not support anyone in DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR. AA helps people STOP DRINKING, it does not help people devise clever rationalizations to continue drinking. And that is what you are seeking, a way to continue drinking along with some folks who will support your downfall. You won't find that in AA and you won't find it here.

You didn't have a "slip," you are on a BINGE and don't want to stop.


Well, of course they are. Decent, civilized people are supposed to judge right from wrong. Our prisons are full of those who CAN'T and that is exactly where they belong. Your problem is that you haven't been judging right from wrong and you can see where that has led.

Wake up, friend, you are making decisions that will wreck your life. Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

My question to you now, John...

Now that you know what Dr. Harley believes on the issue, will you just pack up and leave since you didnt hear what you wanted? Or will you stay to explore this more with us and maybe find out what is what?

Dr. Harley is THE expert on marriage, adultery and how to repair marriages. He has a better success rate than anyone out there. So, he has proven himself as the expert in this. You can ignore him (and us) and go find someone to validate what you want. That is your option.

Hopefully, there is still something inside you that will tell you to stay and to work thru this. And that thru that effort, you can end up righting your life for you, for your kids...and even for Jane.

I know some on here will bet that you will just leave. I am praying the Lord convicts you enough that you will stay and seek the truth.

Oh, and ItIsWhatItIs is correct! It is a rare occasion that the good Dr. comes onto these threads. So, he must see something in here.

Maybe you should explore that a little.

"I have read several of the MB books, and let me say that if I could have a relationship that encapsulated all of the teachings, I think I could be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately that isn’t the way it is, and that is why I am reaching out. My other half thinks the Policy of Joint Agreement is stupid and unachievable. She has read The Basics per my request as well as starting “His needs her needs for parents” but she feels most of it is unrealistic."

I'm curious as to how your wife responded to MB principles?
When you discussed the Policy of Joint Agreement with your wife did she think it was stupid and unachieveable?

'John' -

I don't remember EVER seeing a post here from Dr. Harley himself (and i've posted off and on here for years)!

I hope you don't just go away because you aren't being todl what you want to hear...

Most likely your marriage to your wife could have been saved using MB principles. But it's highly unlikely that your relationship with 'Jane' can be saved.

My guess is that like most, your adultery had more to do with not knowing MB principles to apply to your marriage, and like ALL marriages things started getting stale after a while... Then along came OW and you experienced the thrill of being 'in love' so you naturally assumed that she was 'the one' - not your wife.

However, the OW sounds like she might be a serial adulterer. She is already cheating on you with an OM before the two of you are even married, right? I was married to a serial cheater for 25 years. You've already been warned about the extremely low odds of success with a relationship that started out as adultery... But are you also aware of the extremely low success rate with a serial adulterer? The odds are really stacked against you for two reasons now!

Aren't you wondering yet what lies she's telling the new OM about you in order to justify her cheating on you too? She's probably telling him the same stuff she told you about her husband...

IMHO you owe it to your X-wife, your daughter, the OW's children, the OW's father, and to yourself, to stop the adultery and to work at recovering your marriage using MB principles. Regardless of how dead you felt your marriage was, or how long you were separated while waiting for the divorce to be final, the facts remain that you are involved in adultery, possibly with a serial cheater, and you did not employ MB principles to really give your wife/marriage the best chance to succeed.

Why not end the adultery, offer to reconcile with your wife using MB principles, and then if it doesn't work, spend some time being alone before dating somebody new? Oh, and BTW don't date somebody who is married... that IS adultery and is unlikely to result in a successful relationship no matter how strong your desire or feelings (addictive craving) are initially.

John,

If you think about it, the above bolded could have been written by your ex-wife or your GF's ex-husband. They too have experienced betrayal by way of adultery.

Jo

John,

I'm not even going to talk about the adultery issue. So please read on.

You are already in a relationship in which your intended wife completely disrespects your needs.

She disrespects your desires.

She undermines your authority.

She makes you second to others in a home which should feel as though it is your own.

All of these are your own statements.


Despite your many and repeated attempts to correct these problems, they have not changed - not only that, they have escalated.

You have even attempted counseling.

So, where in this, do you find YOUR best interests?

Your ability to feel loved?

You do deserve that, John.

While it is noble to try to stick with someone, it is also correct and honorable to leave when the person is abusive or disrespectful to you, and I believe this woman is very disrespectful to you.

Before you go off choosing another woman, ask yourself why you chose her.

And examine yourself - because you brought the problems from your first marriage right along with you into this relationship. And you will carry them along with you into your next relationship as well.

Unless you figure out what role YOU are playing in this.

Take a very hard look at your first marriage, and answer yourself honestly, about what YOU DID WRONG there.

Knowing about the marriage builders concepts, what should you have done?

Is there any hope that you might walk away from this really bad relationship you are in right now, and do things right elsewhere?

Because frankly, this thing your in,

was a mess from day one.

SB

Like Schoolbus, I am also not focusing on the affair aspect of this relationship. I am only looking at the misery you are dealing with, and I have a very simple question - "why?".

Why do you feel a need to be with someone to whom you have not made a lifelong commitment, but whom you are so desperately hoping to change into what you want her to be?

Why do you not see how wrong you two are for each other?

Why are you arguing with all the replies to you (and wow, I also have never seen a response from Dr. Harley before!), instead of listening and perhaps considering the possibility that when 10 people tell you "A" and you are thinking "B", that perhaps, just perhaps, the answer may in fact be "A"?

I dunno, you do sound like you came here for validation rather than for advice. I can certainly validate that your situation sounds miserable and sad - and if you do want advice, it is what I said earlier - end the miserable relationship and find a woman with whom you can build a healthy and loving relationship.

AGG

"And examine yourself - because you brought the problems from your first marriage right along with you into this relationship. And you will carry them along with you into your next relationship as well.
Unless you figure out what role YOU are playing in this.
Take a very hard look at your first marriage, and answer yourself honestly, about what YOU DID WRONG there.
Knowing about the marriage builders concepts, what should you have done?"

I think the above suggestions are very relevent 'John'.

You seem to believe ALL the responsibility for the failure of your marriage was your wife's alone. Basically, it sounds as if your marriage got stale... as all marriages tend to do eventually... so you sought excitement elsewhere.

Then you found out about the MB concepts and 'realized' how your 'dead' marriage was ALL your wife's fault because she failed to meet your EN's...

What is missing from your account IMHO is how you were also responsible for your marriage. Do you know what your wife's most important EN's were? Do you know if she felt you were meeting her most important EN's adequately? Did she allow an OM to meet the needs you didn't?

The odds that your marriage could have improved if you had applied MB principles to it were much higher than the odds that a marriage spawned by adultery (an affairage) will succeed. In fact, the odds of successfully reconciling with your BW are even a lot higher than turning an adulterous relationship into a healthy/happy marriage!

WHY are you so determined to work on this doomed adulterous relationship anyway?

Are you aware of the addictive nature of adultery? Do you feel as if you HAVE TO have the OW in your life? Just how much humiliation are you willing to put up with just to try to keep the relationship with this adulterous OW going?

Just like any addiction you will have a tough time giving her up. You will actually go through a withdrawal phase complete with craving and caving. But if you can manage to avoid all contact with the OW for at least 3 weeks, the worst part of the withdrawal can be overcome. Then after 6 months of continued no contact with the OW, you will start to see her through de-fogged eyes and most likely will wonder what you ever saw in her!

This was my mistake. The original post didn't use the word proposal, and I misunderstood the engagement planning to refer to some formal, public ceremony. (Some cultures do this where gifts are exchanged and in-laws on both sides meet; a marriage ceremony happens months later.) I am sorry I created confusion on this.

I doubt Dr. Harley is opposed to romantic proposals.

- WG

Unfortunately, the odds are that he wont be back. Very few WSs that come on here and are confronted with the truth....man up and stay and find out how they can change their life around.

I might be wrong. But history shows most dont.

Oneoftwo,

I read your post and can see so much of my situation in yours.

How? Well, my WW left me, divorced me as quickly as possible, and is now shacked up with another man. Was he an affair partner? No. They met after, or so I think.

I could see him in your words. I'm sure my ex has told her I was a horrible husband. I'm sure he desires to have a say in the kid's lives.

Well, here's the reality. He won't and neither will you. Why? Because I'm a father that is very much involved, loved by his kids, and present in their lives.

My ex wants to move away and start a new life with this man in another state. Guess what? I'm not letting it happen without contesting it. Why? I could care less about her and her life with this guy, but I want to preserve my relationship with my kids.

So, I am posting here about myself in the hopes you may understand.

Forget all the affair stuff others have mentioned. Let's assume "Ok, so the divorces were underway and it simply wasn't official." I'm guessing, as my ex wife stated while I was deployed and she was cheating, "I had already decided the marriage was over."

So let's assume there if value to that way of thinking. Let me give you that and not judge you or call you an adulterer or use words of that type. Let's concede your point that your marriage and her marriage were over for all intents and purposes.

You have a ton of things here stacked against you despite that stuff. You're in a mixed family situation. You will NEVER be first over the kids. Your views on how they should be treated/raised/disciplined are quite frankly, none of your business at all. You have a child with this woman. That's who you need to focus on. What happens and how it's handled with your current W's kids are the business of your W and her ex. The sooner you accept this, the sooner this will stop being an issue.

The kids will never, ever, accept you or your role in any way shape or form. You're not their parent nor will they every see you that way, ever. Right or wrong, they will blame you for how your W behaves or their difficulties.

My father married his mistress (and cheated on her too, years later). Guess what? We, his three childen, never ever accepted her. She could have started floating in air, performing miracles and healing lepers and we would still see her as a demon spawn that contributed to the breakup of my parent's marriage. That will NEVER change. Judgement on you? No. But a perspective on how their girls likely see things, spoken or not.

The next thing you need to see, and I'll I'm asking you is to please step back and listen and ingest what you're hearing, is that you're not in love with the reality of your W so much as the POTENTIAL of your W. You're in love with who you think she is or can be versus who she really is.

Brother, you're suffering from White Night syndrome. I had it as well. You two rushed into each other's arms after bad marriages, if what you say is true. Rather than take a break from dating/relationships to find yourself, heal, and learn from your mistakes, you rushed into each other's arms.

Judgement? No. It's what you did.

Hormones and fantasy about what "you could have" guided you and they still feed you and you're still hoping that things will change.

They won't.

Your W cheated on you. She cheated on her previous husband. Justified or not, there is a pattern here.

Finally, I'm assuming you're Catholic, from what you posted. Reconciliation doesn't undo what has been done. Please stop hiding behind the sacraments. Before reconciliation, there was the sacrament of marriage. You hung in there for as long as you could, but did your ex cheat on you? Outside of that, then you should still be hanging in there and working with your ex to fix that marriage and live up to the promise you made before God that "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse" you would be with her till you died.

Is that a judgement? Perhaps. I'll openly say so.

You're married to the Titanic. You want us to give you opinions on how to arrange the furniture when we're telling you you need to find a lifeboat. You don't want to hear us and insist that the ship isn't sinking and that your really need to get this furniture in the right order.

We're screaming to you to get on a lifeboat. You're angry with us for saying to you that the ship is sinking.

You need to end this relationship, focus on your daughter, and find out why you have White Night syndrome and see how you can stop that.

Accept that you'll never be a father or have a say in your W's kids.

You have even less of a say if you're not married.

The worst lies ahead for you with the fact that they will be teens soon.

Save your daughter. Your W is a mess and you cannot fix her and no amount of talking or pleading will change her. SHE needs to want that change.

I really hope you don't run off after getting these posts. I didn't want to listen either when I first started posting.

The people here speak from experience and because we've seen your exact same story a million times. A relationship develops immediately after a marriage ends whether out of an affair or not and neither person fixes the things which led to the demise of their first marriage.

You're like an amputee trying to run a marathon before the wounds have healed.

It can be done eventually, but you need to let your stump heal and go through the training before you can do it.

So end this relationship and focus on your DD5. No one is telling you it is easy and doesn't hurt.

Come back in a year or two and reread your posts and the advice you're getting and you will see things much more clearly. You're enveloped in a very deep fog of your own. All of us have had that fog too.

What we're saying to you is from experience and knowledge learned over much much pain and suffering.

I do wish you the best of luck.

great post Pompbd3!

I hope he reads it.

John, some of your writing is less than clear. YOU know to whom you’re referring in any number of places but the pronouns sometimes confuse, rather than explain the issue. In some places, I think you've been referring to your first marriage but the text is being interpreted as speaking about your current marriage. From what I’ve tried to interpret, I believe you are now divorced from your first wife and have been for several years, and you are now in a relationship that may have begun under less than advantageous conditions. It's not clear from your words when the boundaries were overstepped in your separate marriages. In one place I thought I saw a reference to bcoming "romantically involved" AFTER your and Jane's separate marriages had ended, but I'm not sure. You might clear that up if you're still around.

However poorly your marriage began, Dr. Harley will help you fight to keep your marriage together. Please ignore all advice on this thread that is contrary to Dr. Harley's professional advice.

Here are Dr. Harley's words from above:


In short, John, Dr. Harley doesn't see much hope for marriages such as yours, BUT he won't stop trying to keep them together either. Keep that idea firmly fixed in the forefront of your mind, John.

Now...Dr. Harley has put his finger on a big, big problem in your marriage (the one you came here for help and advice), and that is the concept of the "blended family." There are things about such families that must be clearly understood and I think Dr. Harley's professional counselors (available through his telephone counseling service) can help you with this concept. Please call them if you can and set up a session as soon as you can.

John, please also understand you have not recovered from Jane's infidelity. You need help getting over that also. The sheer magnitude of your several problems is truly daunting, the stress and emotional impact of everything happening at once is disheartening. John, I really understand why you've been venting in this thread, but...please don't call folks names, okay? It just isn't going to do anything for you and it encourages people who simply do NOT like Dr. Harley posting sympathetically to you at all to be even more vitriolic. If you'll take a more moderate tone and just learn to disregard the advice that is contrary to what Dr. Harley says, you can get a long way down the road to recovery.

Hang in there, John. And come back to talk to us, okay?

Longhorn,

John is not married to Jane. Never was. They just shack up together. They were 'engaged' for a time. John feels second to Janes kids. Wants to be first.

His GF did not have an affair. They were not married. It is not even clear if they were 'engaged' at the time. It was 8 months into their "relationship".

"For anonymity reasons I will call myself John and I will call my significant other Jane."




Perhaps (for John's benefit) you could be more specific. He is new to the boards afterall.

I think John is getting pretty consistent advice on this thread, probably more so than I have seen on most any other thread.


I don't think John is married.


I dunno, I don't think that John loses any sleep over Jane's "infidelity" . The big elephant in the room is that John and Jane have totally different values, parenting styles, goals, priorities, etc. I don't see any compatibility between them, and the fact that John came here complaining how badly Jane treats them confirms for me that the relationships is flawed.

Since they are only dating, I keep saying the same thing I say to others in that situation - why not go out and find a better match. Oh, BTW, I don't think that John and Jane share a child, as some have inferred.

AGG

jane did cheat on john

Right. But he wasn't married to Jane. Besides, he did say that he can get past the affair (well, I sure hope so, since that is what he and Jane had to begin with), but that the real issue for him is this:

.

Why he wants to stay with someone who treats him like this is an answer we will probably never get.

AGG

yeah i know that they weren't married but ba stated that jane didn't have an affair on john but she did. i was just putting in my un-needed two cents...lol

i'm sure he's lurking somewhere but his ego won't let him come back and get the real help he needs. which is quite sad...and you know it's bad when Dr. Harley feels the need to try to reach out to him on the boards.

oh well...can't save everyone i guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Allurin,

I didn't say that GF did not cheat...I said GF did not have an AFFAIR.

To me, an AFFAIR is a shortening of Extra Marital Affair. They were not married.

I'd like to see the original poster return, and I don't want to TJ, but here goes...

I don't think many people like 1of2 (aka 'John') are going to get saved around here.

The analogy that comes to mind is someone showing up in an emergency room after an automobile accident and getting peppered with questions instead of being treated. Questions like "Why weren't you wearing a seatbelt? Don't you know they save lives? It is the law. Can't you see what a bad example you set for your children when they don't see you wearing one?" Meanwhile, the victim bleeds to death.

Of course affairs and affair marriages are bad (for everyone, the BS, 'John', the kids). No debate there. But the original poster asked for help and got pummeled here -- and he didn't hurt any of us -- his offense is against another. I don't see what point it served. Can't we be a little kinder?

- WG

oy vey...this is why i sit back and never say much.

Ya know what analogy comes to mind for me?

John says "Doc, it hurts when I do this."
Doc says "John, don't do that."

John doesn't want to hear "Don't do that".

exactly ba!!!

I think 'John' might not want to hear "I shouldn't have done that 5 years ago". At least not more than once or twice.

- WG

This would be correct, if all we did was pepper him about the affair nature of his relationship. But many of us here (me, schoolbus), decided to ignore the affair, and focused entirely on his relationship as he described it.

And guess what? The relationship is a complete and utter disaster. He knows it. We know it. And it is not a marriage. So I told him what I tell everyone who is in a terrible dating relationship - "end it!". Dating is all about finding a suitable partner. His parnter is completely unsuitable for him. Case closed. We can sit here an sing "kumbaya" and make him feel good, but it won't change the things he said in his first post. Have you read it? Every time I read it, I shudder at the awful red flags in their relationship (and that is without including the cheating by his GF).

So I agree with ba109 - the analogy is not one of us questioning "why" he ended up in the hospital. A much better analogy is of someone bleeding to death but refusing to accept treatment. The treatment here is simple - end the unhealthy relationship.

AGG

Did I read his posts? Yes (NB my responses: 3367760 and 3367885 ); I believe you and I are in essential agreement about 'Jane'.

But I'd say only 'a few' here focused on the current relationship vs. the long ago affair.

- WG

OK, we are in vehement agreement then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I sure hope that "John" takes note of the advice, though I think he is long gone by now.

AGG

WoundedGentleman,

One thing you are ignoring though, is the fact that the problems that the current relationship are having are BECAUSE OF the adultery and the way the relationship started.

I believe that the fact it started in adultery is KEY to what is going on here. You see, if we completely ignore how it started, then we might think there would be hope to save this relationship. but, it is fatally flawed from the beginning.

Thus, all the things that are happening would have been predicted right from the beginning, had John come on here then.

So, I dont believe you can separate the current situation from the way it started. They are linked. It is a causal relationship between the two.

And as I said above...that unfortunately for John...I doubt he comes back.

I doubt it too.

It is one thing to point out where he failed (his EA with Jane). It is quite another to be rude. Rather than offer him advice on how to fix this, many of you just wanted to chastize him--repeatedly. It took on such a snarky, rude tone. Capitalizing "YOUR AFFAIR" at every opportunity.
Can we not be firm, yet kind? I know that I would tend to listen and take to heart advice given freely and honestly, rather than angrily and bitterly.
Even Dr. Harley, in his last paragraph to John, gave him advice (POJA with Jane etc...) to fix what is happening NOW.
I realize the signifigance of his EA...but it that the only thing some of you can focus on?
I am pretty sure I wouldn't be seeking advice here if I were him. I am all against sugar coating....but this was not very constructive.

From what I understand, John's 'current relationship' is with a MARRIED woman, that he started dating when he was still married too, AND this married woman, Jane, is cheating on her husband with another OM besides John.

Now even if you completely ignore (for some reason?) the part about John cheating on his wife with Jane before his divorce was final, that still leaves:

John's current relationship is with a MARRIED woman, Jane, who is cheating on her husband with another OM besides John.

Also, John seems obsessed (inapporpriately IMHO) with wanting to have authority over Jane & her husband's kids, and with wanting to be first in Jane's life, in front of her kids, her husband, her other OM...

Imagine John writing to Ann Landers:

Hi Ann, I am involved with a married woman (that I started cheating with while I was still married to my X-wife). She has also cheated on her husband with another man besides me since I got involved with her. Now here's my problem: Her kids don't respect me and won't obey me as if I am their father - instead of her husband, their real father. Whatever should I do?

Even if you totally leave out the part in parentheses (about him still being married when he started cheating with Jane) I doubt seriously he would be advised to continue this relationship.

MM: I think you are mistaken -- 1of2 clearly states that they are now both divorced.

I don't share your perspective about the causality of the former affair and the current relationship. (Though I agree infidelity is a significant 'factor'.) I believe that I understand your perspective much better now. But I think your message (i.e., a relationship started in adultery has zero chance of working) is a tough sell. I was trying to help the original poster understand why the current relationship is not in his best interest with a more approachable tactic.

As bluerskies points out, even Dr. Harley's post offered some small hope for his working on this relationship. But you are entitled to disagree.

- WG

"I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today."

The above statement was from Dr. Harley's post in this thread. Note that he says he did read our responses to John. Also note that he did not state that he found our responses to John to be inappropriate, offensive, or 'snarky'. IMHO it's safe to assume that if Dr.Harley believed our responses to John to be harmful or even the 'wrong' approach, he certainly has both the authority and the power to have them deleted and/or to state his objections. So perhaps the posting-police need not worry?

The fact that WS's typically post & run has less to do with how they are responded to than it does with the fact that they (usually) don't find much support for their adultery here at MB's. They come here mistakenly thinking that if they just tell us how dead, boring, or horrible their marriage was... how it was 'over' long before the divorce was final... how their adultery partner is their special soulmate... then SURELY we will asure them that it's not really adultery, that they were meant to be together.

IMHO they are so fogged and delusional, they have gotten so much 'support' from perhaps well-meaning but uninformed folks/society, that they honestly don't realize that an internet site for STOPPING adultery is not exactly the best place to seek support FOR adultery! AND, as Dr. Harley himself stated, that even with the best of resources for saving relationships, it DOES decrease the odds of success tremendously when it is adultery-based.

I like the analogy that somebody posted about the Titanic: How we're trying to tell John the ship is sinking, that it has a fatal flaw that makes it extremely doubtful it can float, but John's insisting the only problem is the furniture needs to be rearranged.

Now maybe some here perceive it is 'snarky' to tell John to abandon ship? That no matter how much he rearranges the furniture, that even if he hires THE best furniture rearranger in the business, that the ship is going to sink anyway... So the chastisers of the chastisers hop onto the thread to tut-tut those who tut-tut the adultery.

SHEESH - has this place really gotten so bad that we can no longer oppose adultery here?!?!? REALLY - what exactly is so wrong with informing new posters of the FACT that adultery is wrong? Is it against the posting rules here to admit that adultery has tons of negative consequences - including the BC's (Betrayed Children) not respecting the 'authority' of their adulterous parent's adultery partner? Is it such a bad thing to do, apparently even worse than adultery itself, to call adultery by it's true name?

^^ Exactly. They are both divorced, for several years.
This is a prime example of people not wanting to help him, but to focus on the past EA and ONLY the EA. Some of you saw only what you wanted to see and angrily latched onto it. Not constructive at all.

In addition to genuinely trying to help a man in a great deal of pain, I think it likely that Dr. Harley wrote his response to model a post that is truthful of the painful reality, and also gracious.

I'm not one of those -- I did counsel ending the relationship with 'Jane'.

What is less wise about telling 'John' this is: (1) he isn't likely to be receptive; (2) once he was told by one or two, that ought to be enough; (3) it got so bad, that he essentially pled for responses that would help with 'Jane' and not get into a debate about his past sins (he knows about his past sins, he even sought spiritual guidance afterwards); and (4) by helping him in his present crisis without focusing on thie past, you might then be in a better position to convince him of the full ramifications of affairs.

- WG

I am completely agreeing that we should never support adultery. It's as bad as drugs. However, I also agree that I don't blame him for disappearing, considering the tone that many posters took. We would have had a better chance of helping him if we had said, politely, look, you've made some bad choices. You've got yourself and others in a mess, but here is how we think you can get out of it.

If you guys would have banged me over the head, repeatedly, for enabling my husband the way John was banged over the head, I would have left here for good, running and crying, humiliated. Just sayin', if you want to convince someone of something, you don't humiliate them first, and you use compassion. People are welcome to disregard that, of course, but this thread is proof of what happens when they do. What good did it do to treat him this way? He's now not here and not listening to any advice.

I would like to commment on this, though:
Regardless of the background of their situation, IMO John saw a devastatingly bad familial situation in front of him regarding how Jane was raising her kids. I don't give a flip about him or her, but it horrified me to hear how Jane was raising her kids. If I came into a situation where my partner or roommate or whomever was doing that to their kids, you can bet that I'd be 'obsessing' over what was going on under my roof with those kids; it takes a village, and all. He saw (rightly so, IMHO) that they were being emotionally abused through poor parenting, and tried to make his point. She repeatedly agreed/lied/ignored all over the parenting issue, and the kids suffered. I'm surprised they're not committed somewhere or in jail already. I don't agree that, just because you aren't a kid's biological parent, you don't have a right to have input into how they're being raised under your roof - especially if they're being raised so poorly. JMO

Bluerskies,

John was seeking validation for that which cannot be validated. He was seeking help for that which, as Dr. harley noted in the odds, is statistically improbable. John wanted to take a relationship that is flawed at its core, and which cant be made whole because of those flaws (which will be with the relationship for as long as it stays around) and he wanted us to help make it like a normal marriage.

That isnt possible! Sure, things can be made better. But they can never be as what he wants MB principles to make them. It is not only improbable, in my book, it is impossible.

I didnt attack him. Maybe some did. But, what I wanted to point out is the fact that he is betting his life, Jane's life and the lives of those kids...on a "one chance in a hundred."

If he was trying to bet all of his life savings o na stock that had one chance in a hundred, would I be loving and caring by helping him do so? Or would it be loving and caring of me and others to try to get him to get a little smarter, and not risk everything on a losing proposition?

"We met at work, became co-workers, friends and eventually became romantically involved. We were both in bad marriages (mine life-less and love-less where we hardly spoke, and hers angry disrespectful and resentful). We became a sounding board for each other and then became each other’s support system."

From what I can tell John is now divorced from his X-wife, I may have missed the part in his posts where he states that Jane is also divorced now too?

But even so, the fact still remains that their relationship is adultery-based.

And whether or not one approves of adultery-based relationships, whether or not one chooses to support such an adultery-based relationship, the fact remains the odds of an adultery-based relationship succeeding are extremely slim.

IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out that fact to a new poster.

IMHO there is also nothing wrong with opposing adultery-based relationships and challenging those involved in them to end the adultery-based relationship.

IF/when the rules are changed here so that:

adultery cannot be called adultery,

adultery cannot be challenged or opposed,

the problems caused by the adultery can't be directly linkled to the adultery,

posters here can ONLY post to adulterers IF they are trying to help the adulterers resurrect their dying adultery,

then I will stop posting here!

Why? Why is it a tough sell. It is the facts! Please re-read what Dr. Harley posted. Those numbers are the facts. We can debate WHY these relationships dont work, as there is much conjecture out there. but debate on whether they work or not has been settled.


He offered a small hope that the relationship could be made better than it currently is. But nowhere in there did he state the possibility of that relationship finding what we all have been seeking here. As a matter of fact, he very accurately spelled out the fact that the odds of John having a successful, loving relationship as defined by MB and what it is about...is one in a hundred.

Those are terrible odds!

Who was angry?

If it's 1 in 100 it's his choice. The affair was pointed out repeatedly, and we were beating a dead horse. Dr. Harley recognized that too, and gave him the tools to work with Jane. It isn't something "I" would want...but it's not for us to say what relationships are worth saving. I agree that it is loving and caring to help him see that it is an unhealthy losing proposition...unfortunately that's not the tone it was addressed with <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

"they were being emotionally abused through poor parenting"

Their adulterous mother allowing her adultery partner to move into their home was emotional abuse too. IF the situation with her kids is truly as John describes, that is a discipline problem for the mother and father of those kids to address, with counseling, parenting classes, etc. Again, IF it is even true than those kids are lacking in limits and discipline - in other words spoiled. However, it is not appropriate for one of their mother's adultery partners to try to exert obviously unwelcomed authority over those kids. He should not have been living under the same roof with those kids in the first place. THAT displays so much disregard for the emotional well-being of those kids that one has to wonder what John's true motive for wanting control over those kids might be. IMHO he is in a power struggle and maybe even resents Jane's relationship with her children period. Why should his claim for the welfare of those children even be believed when he so obviously didn't mind damaging their emotional health by exposing them to adultery? Even if Jane has spoiled her kids, are we to pretend that the break up of their family, divorce, and being exposed to adultery, AND having some OM hang around demanding daddy-authority over them, has NOT been a danger to their emotional health?!?!?

Sheesh! Oh, yea, let's just totally ignore all that and pretend the ONLY, or the WORST problem in those kids' lives is that they are spoiled.

What I got from John's complaints about Jane's kids is that he wants Jane to put him first before her kids, he wants Jane to parent her kids the way HE sees fit, he blames Jane's kids for the adultery-based realtionship crumbling (even thogh that's what MOST adultery-based relationships eventually do)...

IMHO that sounds very little like genuine concern for her kids but more like selfishly wanting her kids to not interfere with his relationship with their mother. In fact, it even sort of sounds scary to me, like he's maybe thinking if the kids were totally out of the picture he and Jane could somehow recapture how fun the adultery was before reality set in?

It is VERY COMMON for adulterers to get hooked on the romantic fantasy-based phase of adultery and then to not like it so much when that part ends and they have to start dealing with real-life issues such as finances, kids, POJA, etc. It is also VERY COMMON for spouses in blended families to disagree so much on how their respective kids are parented, each thinking the other is favoring or spoiling their own kids. A wanna-be step-dad claiming that her kids need stricter discipline... that if it wasn't for her kids everything would be perfect... YIKES says I!

I am not sure what you mean by "tone". At least in my case.

But, it is in fact what we are trying to do in helping someone understand if a relationship is worth saving. We do that all of the time. many BSs wonder if they can save their marriages...or if they want to. And we wholeheartedly help them understand that, yes...it can be saved with work and with using MB principles.

And the flip side is true. When a WS comes on here and wants help with leaving their spouse and making their relationship with the OP work, we tell them that they are barking up the wrong tree. That they really have no chance of making it work. Because, the reality is...they dont work!

Well, what I got from his complaints was that he walked into a nightmare of bad parenting and tried to make the best of a bad situation. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but IMO, your disapproval of him is filtering what you see.

I think many are missing the point. Forget the genesis of his relationship. She was broken entering into this relationship and so was he.

They both made a classic mistake. They jumped from one relationship right into another, without fixing or analyzing what led them down the path to that bad relationship in the first place. They didn't fix themselves before getting into it with someone else.

They tried to escape their marriages in each other, but fell into the trap of the love illusion which covers up, temporarily, the real problems that caused the problems in their own marriages.

Again, the Titanic comes to mind. She's the Titanic here and he's the passanger on board regretting the design of the thing and wishing it was just a little different so that it wouldn't sink. He can wish all he wants, but it's still a flawed ship and is sinking regardless and he's still thinking he can fix it somehow so it doesn't happen.

Forget the adultery. This ship was doomed from the start even if they had been fully divorced when they met, the fact is they are two broken people. He has, based on his post, White Knight Syndrome and she has, based on his post, maturity/personality/baggage issues.

He needs to see that the "princess" he thinks she is is not the reality of who she really is. She needs to fix the issues that led to settling for marrying a man with a chemical abuse problem (if true).

They escaped into each other's arms when the they themselves were broken. This is why second and third marriages have high failure rates. People blame their ex spouse for the breakup of their marriage and seldom fix or address their own role in the failure, instead finding someone else to cover their insecurities or who overlook their problems which only resurface after the hormones and scre*ing stops.

Waywards are broken people. So are BSes. Both BS and WS need to make changes to restore the existing marriage or to make future marriages work.

That's my twocents. I'm sure he still reads our exchanges but is holding back on responding. Hopefully he'll see that ultimately, regardless of the opinions on the genesis of his marriage/relationship, there's issues he's blind to because of his "love" for this woman.

He's in love with being in love and really believes in the potential of "Jane". Reality keeps slamming him in the face that "Jane" is not the princess he thinks she is, but he continues to ignore it because his feelings are getting in the way of logic.

He really needs to back up, listen to the logic, and take a good hard look at the reality versus the fantasy of his head.

That's hard to do when hormones and feelings cloud logic.

I'm a BS who understands how intensely others feel about affairs. But we'll never get through to someone operating in an emotional state. They need to back up, listen to logic, and really absorb what is being said.

That's hard to do for a wayward looking for validation or emotionally involved.

I should know. I've loved very broken women in my past who suffered from all kinds of problems. I thought I could save them. They can only save themselves just as he can only save himself.

The Titanic is sinking and he's going to drown no matter how badly he wishes it wouldn't sink.

1of2, if you're still reading, and I hope you are, post. Listen to what we're saying. Love is not enough and you are ignoring realities of your situation that are never going to be fixed. I'm sorry, my friend, but you are on the Titanic. Jane can only fix herself and you can't do it and you will never be accepted by her children and you don't have a right to say anything about how she and her ex raise them. You're an outsider wanting to join a club that you're simply never going to get into.

We're 2x4s here that want you to see the logic. Some of us present it with emotion, having suffered from the betrayal of infidelity that you and Jane inflicted on your spouses.

No one ever cheats on a spouse when they're happy in their marriage (except philanderers). They obviously cheat because they're unhappy. Is it justified? Absolutely not. But human beings are imperfect people and logic doesn't trump feelings. We gravitate to what makes us feel good instead of dealing with the painful process of fixing the problems in the existing marriage.

Please continue posting.

"If it's 1 in 100 it's his choice. The affair was pointed out repeatedly, and we were beating a dead horse. Dr. Harley recognized that too, and gave him the tools to work with Jane. It isn't something "I" would want...but it's not for us to say what relationships are worth saving. I agree that it is loving and caring to help him see that it is an unhealthy losing proposition...unfortunately that's not the tone it was addressed with"

It is however for each of us to decide AND SAY, whether or not WE will support OR challenge adultery. That is not for you to decide for any other poster here. If you choose to support or defend an adultery-based relationship, or to ignore it, that is your choice. But your choice does not extend to me and other posters here. It is well within the posting rules and purpose of this site to speak up against adultery. Nobody here is required to either help adulterers keep their adulteries alive or else just keep quiet about it.

My WXH could have very easily come here at some point saying many of the same things John is saying, or my WXH's latest OW could have posted here in a very similar fashion. And they for sure would have been telling you how 'dead' and 'horrible' the marriage they destroyed was. They would even have told you that if it weren't for the kids, and the kids' reaction to their adultery, that everything would be perfect...

It absolutely appalls me to realize that if that had happened, if my WH or the OW had come here seeking help in keeping their dying adultery alive, there are posters here who would have chastised anyone who tried to tell them to stop the adultery and for my WH to make a genuine reconciliation effort with me! If somebody had tried to tell my WH that what he was doing was wrong, that the right thing to do (and BTW the option with the far greater odds of success than trying CPR on his adultery-based relationship), then they would have been criticized and shushed!

Absolutely revolting IMHO!!!!!

IMHO there are far too many posting here at MB's who are willing to either condone or ignore adultery when offered the opportunity to challenge it. Very few people (besides the BS's and BC) in an adulterer's life will have the sense or courage to speak up against the adultery. Unfortunately most of what people think they know about marriage and adultery is not factual or effective. That is one of the reasons the existence of this site is so important. But even here, there is an infestation of adultery-promoting, adultery-prolonging, marriage-destroying mindset and myths that serves to enable adulteries while destroying legitimate marriages...

And while it may be your choice to fail to confront adultery, to either assist the adulterers or 'stay out of it', you undoubtedly are leaving out consideration for the BS's and the BC. Do you presume that the BS's and BC John and Jane have harmed with their marriage-destroying, family-fracturing adultery, ALSO agree that whatever John wants, John should get, and THAT is ALL that matters?

John came here seeking support for trying to salvage his disintegrating adultery. We got that.

John didn't/doesn't want to put the same effort into saving his marriage. We got that too.

You personally don't mind him seeking and getting help to save his adultery (you might not feel comfortable helping him yourself - but have no problem with others helping him).
We got that part too.

Now here's the part you don't seem to get:
It is NOT up to you to decide what I and other posters decide to do. And it is perfectly OK for us to tell John that what he is doing is wrong and that he has a better chance of turning his abandoned marriage into a healthy marriage than he does of turning his adultery into one. And it's even OK for us to tell him that even if it's something he doesn't want to hear. AND as a matter of fact it also happens to be the best way to respond to a person deep in the addiction and fog of adultery!

It is a GOOD THING to confront an adulterer with the truth and to challenge them to stop the adultery.

And while some who post here seem to not get it that adultery is indeed wrong, that it needs to be challenged, that a 'stay out of it' attitude (let alone a 'hey everybody else you stay out of it too' attitude!) does nothing but further enable the adultery, I assure you that the adulterers themselves usually do realize that confronting them with the truth is a very effective way to stop adultery. Why do you think adulterers are so secretive and object to exposure? They KNOW that exposure may result in opposition to the adultery and that will in turn endanger the adultery.

Now it is important to realize that opposing the adultery is a good thing, it HELPS the adulterers. Of course it does not help the adulterers to continue the adultery as easily as before... But just because the person deep in the adultery addiction WANTS to continue the adultery, even if that is what they came here to MB to try to do, that does not mean that openly opposing their agenda, confronting them with the consequences of their addiction, and challenging them to end the adultery, is therefore a bad or mean thing to do.

Again consider the AA anology. An active adulterer coming here to seek help with saving his adultery is akin to an alcoholic showing up at an AA meeting seeking booze... or asking for help in keeping his access to the local bar going... or complaining that if it weren't for the kids being such brats and/or the consequences his drinking has on the kids, he could continue to drink with no problems.

But for some odd reason, unlike an AA meeting, there are some people here who not only think it's a good idea to try to help this addict get what he wants, but also feel it is their duty to prevent all other posters here from giving him what he really needs.

I have to wonder if some of you posters would show up at an AA meeting to hand out beers and complain about the 'judgementalism' of those at the meeting who try to tell the alcoholic they have to stop drinking?

Catperson,

True. He may have walked into a nightmare of bad parenting. But, he had as much right to interject himself into that as I do in interjecting myself into the parenting styles of the parents of the kids I coach in baseball.

Of course, if I saw abuse, I would inform the authorities. But outside of that, it is none of my business.

John is Jane's affair partner. That entitles him to nothing when it comes to the kids. And as pointed out by meremortal, his presence is also probably adding to the bad environment with those kids.

Again, he has no right to interject himself into their lives.

My kids told my wife that if she ended up with the OM, they would not welcome him. They would not treat him as a parent or with much respect. Why? Because he was one of two people responsible for destroying their family. He did not deserve their respect, nor love.

On the other hand, when questioned, they asked that if we divorced and my wife and I remarried, would they accept the new step-parents. And they said yes.

You see, it has nothing to do with being a step-parent. It has EVERYTHING to do with the adultery and the break-up of the family!

Hi MortarMan -

The answer to "who was angry" is (IMHO) John was.

John had hoped that even though this site is for preventing adultery and helping marriages recover from adultery, that maybe this part of the site labeled "After Divorce: Dating & Relationships" would perhaps be a safe place to seek help in trying to jump-start the dying adultery that destroyed two marriages (and thereby decrease the odds that the BS's will get a chance to recover their marriages).

When he was told the truth about how his current relationship was adultery-based and therefore not likely to survive, he didn't like what he was being told.

Then after he got angry, it was pretended that his anger at being told the truth was somehow proof that he had been treated poorly by the posters who had responded to him.

Like any addict, when told what he wants is harmful, and while immediately gratifying will not lead to a happy and healthy future, he reacted to the info with defiance.

He did leave because he didn't like what he was told.
But he didn't leave because something that was said to him was wrong to say.
Addicts have to bottom out before they are ready to listen to what they need to hear to get better.
And that does not translate into it was wrong to tell them the truth they aren't ready for yet, or into it's right to tell them what they want to hear, or even into just keep quiet...

Hopefully he is still reading or will come back someday to read the responses.

I sincerely hope he gives up his addiction and his stubborn defense of it sooner vs. later for the sake of all involved.

But some people insist on waiting until much more damage is done before they finally acknowledge the truth and give up their waywardness...

That's your choice to believe that. I choose to believe that if a person puts their children under my roof, I will take on their welfare, whether others feel I'm legally or morally obligated/allowed to do so.

I think the issue here today is the method of delivery. People are more than welcome to posit their beliefs (and I happen to agree with your beliefs). However, I am also a pragmatist and an amateur psychologist, and I will reiterate that you did no good by beating him over the head, over and over and over, about how reprehensible and immoral he was. You can speak about the immorality of adultery til you're blue in the face, but guess what? You now have no audience to hear it, except the other people who already agree with you, because you've chased him off through your method of delivery.

Mermortal, I don't think anybody here disagrees with you regarding adultery. Nobody is saying not to inform John that his relationship is adultery nor that the adulterous nature of his R is at the core of his problems. It is more the delivery of these statements that is being called to task. Yes he needs to know, but if it is not presented in a way that he will actually read it and absorb it, it won't ever sink in. At least that's how I see it.

I don't doubt he'll be back to read this, if he hasn't already. He'll never post again, though, and I can't blame him. I'm not defending him, just that why would he come back after he has been raked across the coals the way he was, whether it was justified or not?

Is this going to turn into one of those "My posting approach is better that yours" debate?

What's the point? No one is going to change the way another person posts.

I think John from his very first post is still lost in the FOG, even years after his divorce. Perhaps that's why many kept trying to take him back to the start of the relationship. The EA. He hasn't dealt with the affair yet. He hasn't even admitted that an affair ever occurred.

Resilent asked: "John,
If I'm reading this correctly, you and Jane are an adultery-based marriage, correct?"

John's reply: "Sort of I guess."

and then later he posts this:


I think it would be irresponsible of members of this board to NOT point out the fact that he had an affair to the point that it finally sinks in and he GETS IT. How can anyone help the man in his relationship when he is still lost in FOG?

His first response to Resilient was very civil and then moments later he responded to Resilient again as if a switch had been flipped. He suddenly felt judged and went immediately on the defensive. Did the man have an epiphany? Who knows.

mm, this is not a response to you...i must have clicked on your post to respond to the thread in general.

"Well, what I got from his complaints was that he walked into a nightmare of bad parenting and tried to make the best of a bad situation."

I've had some discipline problems with my daughters resulting from both the fact that my WXH and I had very different approaches to parenting (that WXH wouldn't POJA on), and the fact that they were drastically affected by their WF's (Wayward Father's) midlife crisis and adultery that resulted in their WF insisting on destroying our marriage and their family.

I'm willing to bet big that if you listened to my WXH and his OW all you would get from listening to their complaints would also be all they wanted you to get from it - that the ONLY problem was that the kids were acting up...

My WXH only agreed to meeting with the family counselor three times even though one of our daughters was cutting herself and another was hospitalized for severe depression.
And guess what his reason for meeting with the family counselor was? According to him if we could just get our daughters to behave and accept his adultery and the OW as 'good' than he and the OW would have no problems. He actually told me that it was my JOB to tell our daughters that "their feelings were wrong"! He told me I needed to make it part of my homeschooling to teach them that what he and OW were doing was OK.

(BTW, just in case some participating here might be so 'non-judgemental' as to believe that it really was my duty to tell my daughters adultery is OK - I assure you that my daughters would not have bought that anyway and would have just thought BOTH of their parents had gone insane then LOL)

It sounds as if Jane and her husband, the father of her kids, had not POJA'd on how to discipline her kids. (maybe - heresay from an adulterer - not known to be credible - plus it does have to be taken into consideration that just like my WH his #1 priority is not the welfare of the kids, although he sometimes claimed that, but sheltering his adultery from the naturally occurring consequences - In other words my WXH went to the family counselor becuase he was concerned about how our daughters' behavior was threatening to spoil the fun of his adultery!)

Consistency between the parents is important; inconsistency itself can lead to more behavior problems than either both parents being too strict or both parents being too permissive. It is important for the parents of those kids to POJA to come up with a consistent way for those kids to be parented. And by parents I do NOT include whomever their mother is currently having sex with.

It really is no business of one of the mother's OM how her children are disciplined. It is very damaging and even sometimes dangerous for children to be exposed to adult male sex partners their mother gets involved with. The fact that one of her male sex partners is so obsessed with her kids needing much more strict discipline is sort of a red flag IMHO, regardless of whether it's true that her kids are spoiled and lacking in discipline!

In fact, if it really is true that her kids are that spoiled or rebellious
AND he is so obsessed with wanting to impose much stricter discipline on them
AND he inapporpriately believes he has some sort of right of authority over her kids,
then IMHO this is a not an example of him trying to make the 'best of a bad situation'.

It's more like the ingredients for the worse case scenario IMHO - what could very easily turn into one of those all too common cases of mommy's boyfriend finally giving the kids the 'discipline' he feels they need with tragic results.

"We'll just have to agree to disagree, but IMO, your disapproval of him is filtering what you see."

I haven't seen any "disapproval of him". We disapprove of adultery.

Let's go back to the alcohol anology:

I have a relative who spent several years in prison for killing a man while drunk driving. I don't disapprove of this relative, I love her. She is out of prison now, she drinks, and so does her new husband (and sometimes even drives after drinking). I strongly disapprove of what she does. Her actions are wrong. Expressing disapproval of what she does is not the same as being disapproving of her or disliking her.

It is not mean, rude, or evidence of simply not liking or being 'disapproving' of somebody to tell them what they are doing is wrong and harmful.

And some posters here seem to not realize, or tend to forget, that they are only hearing one side of the story, and the statistically less honest side at that when they are listening to an adulterer.

Don't you at least wonder how different a tale would be told by the John's & Jane's BS's and BC's?

It's entirely possible, and actually VERY PROBABLE that the marriages John and Jane destroyed to be together were nothing like described. It's also quite possible that Jane's kids are not all that bad either. Why pretend, just because John said so, that we know the truth about the situation? It could be that Jane's kids really are as spoiled and disrespectful as John claims... or they could be just normal kids or even angelic ones for all we know. It is even a possibility that John has some jealousy or abuse issue? IMHO it doesn't even sound as if he even likes Jane's kids let alone genuinely cares about their welfare.

(Oh, and BTW if you had talked to my WXH's OW she would have told you all about how much she 'cared' about my daughters, and was worried abotu their problems too... I guess I can assume you would have believed her too.)

What I got from John's posts was that he wanted to find some way to make Jane's kids behave per his standards so that Jane's kids would not be interfering with his relationship with Jane. I believe he even said something about if it weren't for her kids the relationship would be perfect?

I'm sorry but I've just got to say that IMHO Jane is crazy to have anything to do with a man who thnks that way! Even if my kids were the worst little demons on the planet, that would be like waving a HUGE RED FLAG if I ever heard a man who was interested in me saying that!

I think there is a very good reason why the counselor John and Jane went to at some point started trying to tell John to butt out of the parenting of those kids!

I understand what you are saying. If a child is under my roof, I would take responsibility while under my roof. BBBUUTTTTTT....the whole point to the post was the fact that they shouldnt be under his roof. being under his roof is a form of abuse! It is putting those kids face to face with the man responsible for the break up of their family. What he needs to do is get them out from under his roof.


Well, I am not for beating people up. But I am for using 2x4s (virtual) for those that continue to try to push foggy notions. And that was what John did over and over again. he kept trying to push the conversation onto how to fix things with Jane and how to fix things with the kids. He wanted us to help him use MB principles to help him get things right.

And what we kept trying to tell him was that he had a snow balls chance in Hades of getting things fixed with Jane....and he had an even lesser chance of getting things right with those kids. He has caused them much pain (of course, Jane has too!).

So, we continue to try to get him to the point where he understands that the only answer here is to stop the adultery with Jane AND to leave those kids alone and get them out of his house.

He has read this. He most likely has continued to read this.

it will sink in one day!

I'm sorry you've had the trouble you've had, and I hope your children are better, and that you are reading as many books and taking as many courses as you can to learn how to help them through it all, and that you are providing them access to as much help as they will take.

I will stick to my claim that if children are under my roof, I will take steps to take care of them, entitled or not. I don't doubt he had just as big a filter on his situation as you do. However, he did recite specific examples of what I consider dangerous, harmful behavior on Jane's part. Could he have made that up? Certainly. But, as with all posters here, we assume that they are telling at least a modicum of truth about their situation, at the very least the specific examples cited. It was to those examples I was referring.

You have valid fears, and I have valid arguments for the welfare of children. And it is entirely possible that, given the opportunity to turn his vision of sensible bedtimes and meal times and homework and treats into action, those children might have even become grateful that there was at least one nurturing adult in the household, and grown up to be better people for it, no matter how he entered their lives; their own parents certainly didn't seem to be providing it. But I guess we'll never know.

Hey meremortal...I understand what you have been saying!

So, his response should be twofold, if there are serious problems with the way they are being treated:

1. Get them out of his house
2. Call social services, and/or the police, depending on what is needed.

But, continuing to have them live under his roof while he flaunts that relationship in front of the kids...is abuse all of its own!

That may be, but the point is, they are under his roof, no one is leaving, therefore, what would you do for the kids?

I would tell Jane to take them and leave...that the relationship is over. And if he wanst her out, she will have to leave.

And I will contact the appropriate authorities and let them know of the situation.

Outside of that, I would really have no power to do anything for those kids. Added to the fact that they wouldnt want me to do anything for them anyway, because I would be the source of much of their pain!

Ok, I'll reiterate - no one is leaving, apparently, so what do you do for the kids? You can judge all you want, and think that if you are just righteous enough he'll listen to you and leave, but the fact is, there are thousands of households just like this one all over the country, where the parents choose their selfishness over the kids' welfare. If they ARE going to stick together, despite your vehement protests about their immorality, if one of the APs sees the children suffering from poor parenting, he is to stand by the side and observe, simply because he's a sinner or whatever, and doesn't deserve to help? Like I said, I don't give a flip about John and Jane. But those kids are stuck in that situation, and I would welcome some sort of help applied for their sakes.

I wouldnt be able to do anything, if I were in John's shoes...more than reporting jane to social services AND stopping my own abuse of those kids by getting them out of my house. The fact they arent leaving means he doesnt really care about them...because he wants the abuse he is heaping on them to continue!


He doesnt have any legal right to do anything, except report Jane. That's it! He has as much right to do something for those kids as I do!!

The problem is that he doesn't recognize it as such. He doesn't see himself as an abuser, because he hasn't subscribed to your notion of such; if anything, he sees himself as the one hope the kids have. Maybe if he had stuck around through more polite and logical discussion with less finger pointing, he could have come to that conclusion eventually, as people stated their case logically enough for him to see the truth. But since he left, he's back in his situation, on his own, thinking it's his duty to help raise her kids and getting nowhere, just like the kids.

Whatever, I'm done.

Mortarman:

Good for you...advocating for the kids.

That is my view also. The children in these SITs suffer so much. I know this is a marriage builder's forum, but sometimes it seems to me the marital advice and empathy for the BS takes precedence over the children's rights and best interests.

IMO Jane moving her affair partner into her home (it was her marital home, right?) to shack up with her AND her three children is capital abuse in my view too. How can you even BEGIN to compare that to a discussion of parenting issues and common household rules like sensible bedtimes and homework schedules?

If John wants to have a relationship with Jane, and Jane wants to have a relationship with John, why do they need to even do it in front of the children?

My sister divorced and lived alone in her own home with her kids until they were grown. Only after the kids grew up, did she marry her boyfriend and life-partner of fifteen years. She sold her nice home and moved into his nice house and now they have a nice little nest egg to take romantic vacations with. They have been happily married for over five years now. Her children always treated her husband like a favorite uncle and a welcome guest in their home whenever he was there, which, by the way was quite often.

CatPerson,

Dr. Harley himself posted to John. In my nearing 8 years here, I have seen this happen only a few times. We told John how rare it was to receive a post from Dr. Harley. And, I'm sure you agree Dr. Harley's post was LOGICAL. Yes?

So John had the very owner of this site and the principles that John himself was pleading for, post to him. Yet John has chosen to remain quiet.

If John read Dr. Harley's response yet still chooses not to respond that says to me John may not like LOGIC. Or perhaps it could be John contacted Dr. Harley outside of the forum for a much needed counseling session. Even better.

Jo

I agree with this and I'm sure so does everybody else. But the law does not, at least not where I live. My WSTBX is living with his OW and her D6. OWH has taken her to court to no avail - in fact the judge ruled that since she has the "complete" family (i.e. man and woman), she has the more stable home. OWH lost a significant amount of his visitation because she & WSTBX moved away. Nowhere in our legal system do they allow adultery to be brought up in a custody hearing. It makes me sick, but there you have it. So John or any of you could report Jane to whoever and nothing will be done about it. If the kids have food, shelter and clothing and are not being physically or sexually abused, then there is no "legal" abuse.

Like I said, it makes me sick.

Sorry I picked on your quote Pieta but it was the most recent.

"If John read Dr. Harley's response yet still chooses not to respond that says to me John may not like LOGIC."

I agree. And I'm not saying that to be 'snarky' or because I have just decided I don't like John.

I am saying that because addicts, and WS's, don't like it when anyone tries to stop them from getting their next fix. And it doesn't even really matter what method is used to attempt to take the crack pipe away from the addict - logic, 'niceness', whatever...

Until the addict is ready to give up the addiction, which BTW usually translates into the problems caused by the addiction get too tough to ignore or manage, the addict will get angry and defiant with anyone, employing any method (or tone), who tries to tell them the addiction is a problem.

John is experiencing some unpleasant consequences of the adultery. Jane cheated on him, Jane doesn't want to POJA, Jane's kids are rebelling...

Other types of addicts have problems too that interfere with the pleasure of their addiction.

I see nothing logical, let alone compassionate, about trying to help an addict avoid the negative consequences of their addiction so they can continue being addicted.

If an alcoholic gets a hangover, he doesn't really need a hangover cure, he needs to get and stay sober.

If a drunk driver kills somebody she doesn't need her victims to be more careful and stay out of her way so they won't spoil her fun; she needs to stop what she is doing.

If a crack addict loses their job because of their addiction, they don't need a free place to live and a supply of more crack, they need to kick the habit so they can keep a job.

Whether or not Jane's kids really are behaving as John claims, no doubt their mother moving one of her adultery partners into their home is not likely to result in those kids having more respect for their mother. Jane's kids have a very valid reason for not respecting her IMHO. I'm willing to bet that if either John and Jane sat those kids down and told them they realize the adultery was wrong, and apologized for destroying their family, and that they were ending the adultery, those kids would have a lot more respect for their mother.

John's reason for wanting Jane's kids to behave better are about him realizing the adultery is not going to continue to be like it was in the beginning. The puppy love part has ended. Real life plus the consequences of the adultery are starting to surface. NO relationship can really compete with the distortion and delusion of the initial stages of an adultery addiction, let alone an adultery-based relationship. The beginning of adultery is like an extreme and artificial high. It can't be maintained forever. John is desparately hoping that maybe if he can just coerce Jane into coercing her kids to behave better, then maybe he can have as much fun with Jane as he did in the beginning of the adultery. But even if her kids are misbehaving, and even if he can somehow get them to behave up to his standards, the euphoria of the brand new adultery is over and it's not ever coming back.

Why do you think Jane cheated on John with an OM already?
SHE was trying to recapture that high again. At least she realized that it really had nothing to do with John, or her kids' behavior. The addictive high caused by adultery is temporary. Jane knew exactly where to go to find it again.

Meanwhile, while the high fades the fallout starts piling up around the adulterers, further spoiling what little fun was left in the adultery.

Now while some may believe it's a good idea to try to help the addict make the consequences more pleasant so the addiction will last longer... (here honey let me hold your hair back while you puke - and don't you listen to those meanies trying to tell you it's called alcoholism) others will try to get the addict to see how the addiction and it's consequences will only get worse unless they kick it.

Oh yea, and then there's the:

well they're going to keep drinking anyway, it doesn't matter that this is an AA meeting, just give them the hangover cure they asked for...'logic'...

"Oh and I forgot to mention that way back, about 8 months into our relationship, despite all the sentiments of deep love and everlasting commitment, Jane had an affair on me. I found out. I found out about all the lies and sneakiness. And she denied it, and denied it. But when she could not hide it anymore, she told me a partial truth, and then after more probing, another partial truth, until I finally gave up on probing. She told me that she was under stress because her and I were disagreeing on boundaries and how partners should treat and value each other. She told me that she was looking for an escape. She had also been exercising and she liked the feeling of being attractive and wanted. She told me she knew it was wrong, but she couldn’t seem to stop it. It hurt me beyond words."

John, have you ever considered that Jane is just not the faithful type?

It's typical for adulterers to assume that their relationship is somehow special, that even though they know their adultery partner is certainly capable and willing to cheat (because after all they cheated on their spouse to be with the adultery partner), that they only cheated because their spouse/marriage was so horrible and they won't cheat on their new special/soulmate adultery partner.

But as you can see now, that is a false assumption. Jane has already cheated on you at least once. And since you discovered it instead of her confessing it, with her denying and denying it, it would be naive to assume that she only cheated that once and isn't involved with the same or another OM now.

Doesn't this make you wonder if just maybe you aren't so special and a soulmate from her POV? Maybe her reason for cheating on her husband with you has more to do with her obvious lack of morals and integrity than it does with either her husband or you?

She told you all sorts of horror stories to justify cheating with you, right? Aren't you the least bit curious what sort of horror stories she told the new OM about you to justify cheating with him? Surely you don't think she told that OM that you and she were special soulmates but were just having some disputes about how to discipline your kids?

John, you are probably basically a good guy that didn't know how to protect your marriage from adultery, fell for the temptation of an OW, and thought you were helping Jane and her children.

IMHO you should give careful consideration to how Jane villified her husband and worry that she is highly likely to make similar accusations about you.

Observe her patterns of behavior and stop assuring yourself she would never do that to you... because apparently she is nowhere near as invested emotionally as you seem to be.

I think the we're all in agreement here and he's gone. We're arguing with each other about an adulteror who is in a crappy relationship and is now gone and not receptive to the reality that his reltationship, whether based on adultery or not, is dead.

Lets call a truce and see if he comes back. We all agree he's wrong. We disagree in response on his part or how to address him. MM, you are a man of faith and see the world in black and white. He doesn't, however, and sadly, gives Catholics a bad name. The fact that he hides behind the sacrament of reconciliation shows he has no clue what it is. It's not intended to be a "let me sin all week and go talk to the priest and be forgiven so I can go sin some more".

That's a Catholic who doesn't know or understand what it really is and is a lost soul.

If he was truly Catholic, he would understand that his sacrament of marriage was binding for life and that he was obligated to try his best to preserve his marriage due to the covenant made with God.

Even the Catholic church doesn't approve of divorce and rarely grants annulments. An annuled marriage for adultery usually frees the betrayed party to marry again, but not the adulterer. My dad is proof of this. He cannot marry again in the Catholic church, but my mom could because she was the betrayed who tried to preserve the marriage, but he strayed again.

Those are my two cents. No one here condones adultery. I think most are merely encouraging a different approach to someone lost in the fog. We've lost this guy because he got slammed in the face. No one is saying talk to him with open arms and be all lovey dovey and forgiving, but you can be compashionate without being hostile. The fact of the matter is that I think most here approached him logically and compashionately, but he still wouldn't listen or was too defensive to be receptive.

For what it's worth...

The title of this particular message board IS -

AFTER DIVORCE: Dating and Relationships

So IMHO 'tolerance' and 'non-judgementalism' need not be extended to the extreme that adulterous dating & relationships BEFORE divorce shouldn't be challenged.

I guess it just amazes me how easily some posters forget that every time an active unrepentent adulterer comes here seeking 'support' (um for their adultery) they have a BS and maybe even BC (BetrayedChildren) who may be desperately hoping, perhaps even praying, for their WS/WP (Wayward Parent) to somehow see the truth that what they are doing is wrong and harmful.

So while some are motivated to dictate that all responses to active adulterers be 'non-judgemental' (um adultery-enabling) MY main motive in posting to active adulterers is to try to tell them what their BS and BC hope somebody will tell them.

BTW, confronting a WS with the truth and NOT buying into their adultery-justifying fog-talk is in total compliance with both the MB principles and the posting rules here.

There is a lot of reference to Catholicism, I'm not a Catholic.
I believe that the poster is divorced, and is an a relationship BASED on an affair. The poster came here for HELP and got fire and brimstone. The poster previously sought counsel from his clergy.
No one here condones adultery, but at what point do we move on? Never? Seriously...if a person is an adulterer, at what point will they be forgiven, and when do we stop judging and start helping?
Obviously the poster acknowledges his adultery, but years have gone by and divorces have been finalized. What if he truly realizes the ramifications of the affair?? THEN can we move on to his actual plea for advice, his ill fated relationship. Then can we be kind and offer suggestions for moving on?

The problem is for him to be helped and for him to be able to move on, requires him to end his relationship with Jane.

Obviously, he does NOT.


Resilent asked: "John,
If I'm reading this correctly, you and Jane are an adultery-based marriage, correct?"

John's reply: "Sort of I guess."

and then later he posts this:

"So did I have an affair? I don't no. My heart tells me know, but the courts say yes."

This is clearly NOT acknowlegement of anything.

Of course he does. He mentioned it here...

Although I probably deserve some amount of judging, I am not sure it is by you. It seems to be very easy for you to jump to conclusions. I am not a perfect person, nor do I profess to be. I have flaws but I am honest about them. And I try to be a good person. I live the motto "random acts of kindness" and I live it very often. My charity and good deeds are only seen by God and sometimes for the person/people I am doing it for. Does that make up for everything, no, but I have a good heart and I think God (who is the ultimate judge) knows that.

I have read every word on the MB site, and I have read multiple books of his. And I have to say I am a bit shocked and disappointed that the first piece of feedback that I get after pouring my heart onto this board is some cheap-shot judgement from you.


and here...

What they don't have any knowledge of is the amount of time I spent with my priest going through reconciliation, I am not talking 10 a minute in and out thing here. It was indepth, and they listened and understood. And considering the first response and your thoughtful warning, I think they showed much more humanity than what I may be about to receive. In the end, I went through reconciliation. And if someone wants to question whether it was good enough, they they need to take it up with the Pope or maybe just take over for God himself.

Again, Bluerskies...as Dr. Harley was poiting out...he needs to recognize that his relationship with Jane is not going anywhere, due to the start it had and the nature of affairs.

to help him would be to get him to move on and get into a healthy relationship.

But, he didnt want to hear that. he wanted to hear how to fix the unfixable!

All I have to offer is my attempt at some sort of symapthy.......umph.....erm......grp.......*******edit*******!!!!!!!!!!!!

*******edit*******!!!!!!

An adulterer answering:

"I don't no. My heart tells me know"

to a question regarding whether they had an affair is not exactly an indication that they have de-fogged enough to admit anything.

According to the info John himself provided:

He was still married when he began the relationship with Jane.

Jane was still married too (has he said that her divorce is final yet?).

Neither John nor Jane spent any time alone (defined as not in a relationship) after their marriages ended to grow as individuals and truly end that chapter of their lives before jumping into a new relationship.

Apparently neither John nor Jane used MB principles to give their marriages a chance of recovering and being successful.

Neither John nor Jane got any counseling to address their part in their marriage's problems and failure. They are both still very much in blame their spouse 100% mode.

They are having lots of problems already, Jane cheating on John, and John trying to dictate discipline regarding Jane's children, Jane thinking MB principles like POJA are 'stupid', etc.

Even if we weren't already aware of the statistics regarding the very low success rate of adultery-based relationships, the info John provided definitely indicates a failing relationship that even MB principles is not very likely to save.

Even if this wasn't a message board for the discussion of dating and relationships started AFTER divorce, even if this message board wasn't at an internet site dedicated to stopping adultery and saving marriages (vs enabling adulteries), then based on the info John provided, it would be naive and misleading to NOT tell John that he should end the relationship with Jane.

But you know what? I don't see any logical, not even any so-called 'compassionate', reason for ignoring the fact that adultery is indeed immoral, that this internet site is FOR the prevention of adultery, and that successful adultery-based marriages are statistically extremely rare.

BluerSkies:

Trying to understand where you're coming from...
Your info states:

43 y/o
Divorced 2 years
Cheating Spouse
Mom of 2 (14 and 18)
In a relationship

How long ago did your current relationship start?

Meremortal, I was separated for over 2 years AND divorced for about a year and a half, before I met my boyfriend. He has been divorced close to 6 years. My joined date does not reflect my divorce status, btw. I joined this site after my divorce, and after I began dating. I wish I would have known of it during my marriage/infidelity/divorce. I was introduced to MB by my boyfriend and have found it useful.

I realize that John needs to realize the impact of his affair in relation to his relationsip with Jane. But I feel you are ONLY seeing what YOU want to see. Dr. Harley HIMSELF, after giving John the verrrry slim odds, gave John the tools to work on his relationship with Jane using MB principals. That's good enough for me.

Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away. I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach. If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?

"Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away. I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach. If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?"

Nobody forced John to leave. He left for the same reason most WS's leave - because they are not FWS's yet and MOST of the posters here do not give them the adultery condoning 'support' they seek.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think my approach was wrong. Because you are not in a position of authority over me or anyone else on this message board, AND your approach is in fact both ineffective and wrong IMHO. Also, your approach conflicts with the purpose and philosophy of this site - not mine.

ALL unrepentent adulterers will assure you that ALL they want to hear here is support for their adultery. That does not translate to therefore that is all they SHOULD hear here.

BTW, what Dr. Harley told John was a confirmation (not a chastisement) of what we had been trying to tell John. And John himself pointed out that Jane is not interested in MB principles like POJA.

DO you also believe that if an alcoholic shows up at an AA meeting, NOBODY at the meeting should tell him he has a problem? What if the alcoholic says the reason they showed up at the meeting is they ONLY want to learn how to get rid of a hangover? Or what to do about the dry heaves? Would you just say, hey the guy says he wants to keep drinking so we shouldn't tell him to stop drinking, let's all just give him what he wants? Or would you point out to the alcoholic the purpose of AA and acknowledge that he's not ready for AA yet? If the alcoholic left the AA meeting, would you pretend that the others at the meeting were to blame for his leaving, because they didn't give him what he asked for?

This is not a 'come and get whatever you want here: support FOR committing adultery OR support for stopping adultery' site.

Apparently some who post here don't understand that though.

This was Dr. Harley's advice to John:

"While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice."

Note that Dr. Harley didn't pretend that John's likely decision to ignore the advice (and to leave this message board), had anything to do with anything we posted to John being the wrong thing to tell John, or being too judgemental.

Also, Dr. Harley chose to tell John the truth about his chances of turning an adultery into a successful marriage, even though several other posters had already said so. Apparently, Dr. Harley didn't believe it was wrong to keep giving John that message.

I'm confident that Dr. Harley had gotten the point that John doesn't want to reconcile with his BW, that he ONLY wants to somehow try to make his adultery work. Yet Dr. Harley didn't just tell John what he wanted to hear, or offer to just help John with his unlikely agenda.

You are perhaps assuming that if John does contact Dr. Harley for counseling, that Dr. Harley will not continue to point out to John that reconciliation with his BW is still the better option, in terms of both what is right and what is most likely to be successful? No doubt there are plenty of other counselors John can go to who will try to help him keep his dying adultery alive and will refrain from telling John that his adultery is wrong and doomed. There are also other internet sites adulterers can go to for all the support they want in justifying adultery.

But if John really wants to have a healthy, happy marriage, then he at some point will have to face the fact that betraying his wife to cheat with Jane wasn't going to give that result. John has two goals that conflict with each other. He wants a happy marriage but he also wants to continue his adultery. There is an exremely small chance that, even with the best professional help, he can somehow turn the adultery into a somewhat successful marriage (keep in mind that the statistics reflect only what little percentage of adulteries even result in marriage - not necessarily a satisfying marriage)... OR there is a much larger chance that, even without professional help, he can reconcile with his betrayed wife and turn that into a fabulous marriage.

And let's not forget that Jane has already made it quite clear that she is NOT interested in POJA. So according to the POV of those who think it's rude to tell John anything he doesn't want to hear, wouldn't it be therefore equally rdue to tell Jane about POJA? After all, that's not what SHE WANTS is it?

No one is asking you to change your opinions. They are only suggesting that, had many posters not been so determined to so forcefully prove to him the error off his ways, he might have stayed around long enough to be convinced of it. No, no one forced him to leave, but, boy did they make it more inviting for him to do so.

Yeah...I'm pretty much done here. We're just rehashing the same postings over and over and over. I went back and read a few of your posts and they are all pretty much the same theme. I feel like I'm listening to a SNL Dana Carvey/Church Lady skit. Holy cow.............

Then you must have been pretty annoyed when Dr. Harley posted more of the same himself then, huh?

This is silly really.

As far as I know this MB site does not have a special message board just FOR adulterers to be told what they want to hear (for the same reason they don't have a bar at an AA meeting). No doubt if they served alcohol at AA meetings a LOT more drunks would come and STAY. I seriously doubt they'd get the help they need though...

I don't understand why you (1) keep bringing up the AA meetings analogy when no one else is interested in talking about it and (2) feel like you have to keep coming back to this thread and having the last word. Is there someone else out there you think you're going to convince?

fwiw, after Dr. Harley explained the likelihood of failure, he then proceeded to give him advice if he's determined to stay with her. So he took the high road to try to help him whether he would do the 'right thing' or not. If I was going to emulate Dr. Harley, I would choose to copy his tolerance and understanding of human nature.

Not me. I won't tolerate someone justifying the unjustifiable. I have been through my H having an A and no way in he(( will I tolerate that fogbabble.

Dr. H must. There would be no benefit to him to badmouth or run anyone off. He doesn't need to, anyways...he knows that that those of us who have BEEN THROUGH IT will not put up with this fog crap.

FWIW, meremortal is comparing this affair to AA and alcholism because THAT IS WHAT DR. H compares it to...an ADDICTION.

[This became sickening clear to me when my FWH said to me "it was weird...it was like an addiction", long before we ever even heard of MB or Dr. H. It's for real, the comparison between affairs and chemical addiction.

Oh, and my H knows something about this...he's been through a chemcial dependency program].

OMG

Talk about cherry picking what the good Dr said.

The good Dr offered him a 1% (ie ONE in a HUNDRED) chance of his relationship lasting 5 years. And if he doesn't face up to and OWN his previous relational mistakes he has even less than that.

He cannot separate his current problems from either his or his GF's view of marriage that clearly is NOT MONOGAMOUS.

WOW.

Actually, I wouldn't believe a single word this [color:"blue"] ******Edit****** [/color](John) says about the way the children are treated. I wouldn't take his word for anything actually.

[color:"blue"][edited for TOS violation][/color]

That's exactly the point - he hasn't recognised it as adultery and he hasn't "truely realised" ANYTHING

And he likely never will, now, because we kept beating him over the head with how [color:"blue"] ******edit ******[/color] he was that he quit listening and left. At least Dr. Harley used decent language and no yelling with him. THAT is what I would learn from and emulate - that if you want someone to listen to you, you don't yell at the person.

John posted this:



Notice what John focuses on. "Making relationships work", regardless of how they came to be.

In all his reading and his "hundreds" of counseling sessions with Jane and Dr. Harley personally posting the why's and therefore's on Johns very first thread, he fails to recognize WHY his relationship is doomed to fail. John continues to search for SOMEONE to tell him what he wants to hear.


Well, no kidding. But John, you knew this from the start. You were infatuated with Jane, not her kids. You just could not SEE this through the FOG.

Here's the thing, by looking at the Who's Online section of this board, I was able to see that 'John' DID return and was reading this thread right after Dr. Harley posted...He chose not to post...Why? I would guess because no one told him what he wanted to hear...Including Dr. Harley!!! Dr. Harley predicted that 'John' would not listen...

This argument that 'John' was "run off" due to tone is just plain tired and ridiculous...'John' was NOT "beaten" with anything...He was told the truth and that is NOT what he wanted to hear...When and if he ever wants to hear the truth, he will remember that he heard it here and come back...Or he may choose to remain fogbound...People that truly want help will remain and get it, those that don't, will not...It really is that simple...

Mrs. W

"I realize that John needs to realize the impact of his affair in relation to his relationsip with Jane."

I agree.

"But I feel you are ONLY seeing what YOU want to see."

Like most unrepentent WS's John came here wanting only to hear how to keep his dying adultery alive. He is ONLY hearing what HE wants to hear. The difference of opinion is that you therefore think the posters here should either tell him what he wants to hear or keep quiet. But it doesn't matter what you think because you have no authority over the other posters here (and BTW your approach will not help John anyway).

"Dr. Harley HIMSELF, after giving John the verrrry slim odds, gave John the tools to work on his relationship with Jane using MB principals."

Dr. Harley did not object to what was being posted to John. In fact Dr. Harley stressed that we were telling him the truth that he needed to accept. Dr. Harley did not tell anyone to change their approach or to ONLY tell John what he wanted to hear.

John said he'd already read the concepts here, had already tried to get Jane interested in them (she wasn't). I think it would be a great idea for John to get counseling from Dr. Harley. Because I'm willing to bet that Dr. Harley would continue to try to tell John that his best bet is to try to reconcile with his BW; that the principles John wants to apply to his adultery would be more effectively employed restoring his marriage to his BW.

An assumption has been made that just because Dr. Harley ended his message to John with a brief statement that he would be willing to counsel John in an unlikely attempt to save his dying adultery, that we were not supposed to continue to tell John the truth, that we are supposed to ONLY post adultery-enabling stuff to him now. That assumption is not substantiated.

"That's good enough for me.

Then it's perfectly fine FOR YOU to continue to post adultery-enabling stuff to John I guess. I don't see how it bears any relevence on what others choose to post to John though... unless you imagine you DO have some sort of authority over the other posters here...

"Better to have had him stick around and find out and learn for himself then cast him away."

Nobody cast him away. He came here specifically for adultery-enabling support. But since this is not a pro-adultery site, he didn't get it (not from the majority of the responders anyway). So he left. He's not ready for this yet because he's still an active WS instead of a FWS.

"I AGREE with what you are saying, but I don't think it was the right approach."

Which is why you tried a very different approach I guess. BTW, I don't think your approach is the right one. But it really doesn't matter what we think of each other's apporaches does it. since neither of us has any authority over the other, right?

"If Harley could give him the advice he sought why can you not accept it?"

Dr. Harley certainly has the authority to lock the thread and/or to tell the posters what he thinks we can or cannot say to John. He didn't. MOST of Dr. Harley's post was confirming what we had said to John. That indicates that Dr. Harley didn't find anything wrong with our 'approach'. Why can you not accept that?

Dr. Harley himself said although he was willing to attempt to help John do it his way, it was doubtful it would work AND that the better choice would be to reconcile with his BW. Why can you not accept that?

The posters here are not under your authority and each can choose their own approach as long as the posting rules are not violated. Why can you not accept that?

(BTW, I have never before reported anything to the board administrators, but I will no longer tolerate other posters pretending I need their permission to post as I see fit. The board administrators have never had cause to delete anything I've ever posted, so I suggest those who feel an urge to censor my posts just trust in the administrators judgement. Future attempts to censor my posts by fellow posters who are not in a position of authority here will be reported.)

John - as you can see even here, at an internet site devoted to helping marriages recover from adultery, you will find some people who will condone adultery. But it seems you want two things that are rarely coexist, John:

You want a strong happy marriage

but you also want your adultery to continue

Please consider carefully the extremely low odds that an adultery even results in marriage, then how few of those marriages last more than a few years, and then how likely that those that last are 'good' marriages.

Your adultery is dying. You want/need desperately to get it back to the stage when it was all fun, romance, and excitement. That's a high that has already left the building. As with any addiction all you are left with now is having to get that next fix just to feel OK, let alone happy. You probably can't imagine how you're going to make it if you can't somehow get the adultery back to that beginning stage. You can't. And the sooner you realize that the less torture you'll put yourself through. Withdrawal will be tough for you but there are many folks here who can support you through that. If you can manage to totally stay away from Jane for at least 3 weeks you will be through the worst of it. After another 6 months of withdrawal and no contact with Jane you will be able to see her and the adulterous relationship clearly for the first time. THEN you will be in a position to make a healthy, addiction-free decision.

I sincerely hope you do schedule an appointment with Dr. Harley. The Harley's are experts in dealing with addictions and can help you get through this.

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^^ amen to that.

That is absolutely NOT what has been said. No one has tried to say that adultery should be condoned, you are reading your own message into what others have said. What they have said is that, to get him to be more amenable to your message and to possibly respond to it and accept it and leave Jane, you could have given your message in different, less righteous words. That is all.

That is hardly condoning adultery. That is considering human nature to not want to be yelled at and to refuse to listen when being yelled at. That is suggesting that we can continue to posit the message that his relationship is doomed, but we could do it in a method that tells him we have his best interests at heart for doing so. That is all.

"to get him to be more amenable to your message and to possibly respond to it and accept it and leave Jane, you could have given your message in different, less righteous words. That is all."

That is your belief, which BTW I believe to be a less effective way to deal with an active adulterer than my approach. And ANYWAY (BTW my use of caps is always to signify the importance of key words - not 'yelling') you are not in a position of authority over me or any other poster here, so your opinion is not only inaccurate, but also totally irrelevent AND unwelcome.

"That is hardly condoning adultery."

There were posts that basically said since John doesn't want to stop his adultery, that's not what he wants to hear, then we should tell him how to try to keep his adultery going.

"That is considering human nature to not want to be yelled at and to refuse to listen when being yelled at."

I never 'yelled at' John. Your false accusations against me will be reported to the mods if you keep it up.

"That is suggesting that we can continue to posit the message that his relationship is doomed, but we could do it in a method that tells him we have his best interests at heart for doing so. That is all."

That is untrue.

First of all it is untrue because posters WERE being told that they should not have told John that his adultery was wrong and doomed! Posters have been 'hammered' with unwelcome advice to not mention John's adultery anymore but instead to ONLY give him support in trying to resuscitate his mostly-dead adultery.

Secondly, it's untrue because the posters that were telling John to stop the adultery WERE doing so because they did have John's best interest at heart. Dr. Harley confirmed that BTW.

BTW, your 'hammering' me with your advice on my posting 'approach' is unwelcome. You claim that it's wrong to tell John something he doesn't want to hear, that doing so drove him away; then you persist in posting unwelcome advice to me...

The theory is since John did not specifically ask for advice in how to reconcile with his BW, that his only purpose for posting here was to try to keep his adultery going, then posting anything other than what he wanted to hear was therefore rude, right?

Well, just so you know: MY purpose for coming to MB's was to help stop adultery and to assist the recovery from the effects it's had on my family and others. I did NOT come here asking for advice on my posting style. PLEASE read the preceding sentence over and over again until you finally get it! Therefore, if you go by the theory you seem to subscribe to, offering me UNWANTED advice about my posting style is wrong (and maybe even rude).

If YOU believe telling another poster something they most certainly did not ask to hear will result in that poster leaving the board, then what does that say about your motive for persisting in posting advice to me that I did not ask for?

BTW, since Jane has certainly made it clear that she is not interested in POJA, according to the above theory, wouldn't it also be unwelcome advice, a 'bad' thing to do, for John to persist in trying to teach Jane about POJA? Oh, and it doesn't sound as if Jane's kids have asked John for his advice or opinion about their discipline either. For that matter it's apparent that neither Jane or her X-husband, the actual father of those kids, asked John for parenting advice. So how is it even appropriate, according to the theory you claim to believe in, for John to attempt to impose his parenting beliefs onto those children?

QUOTE:
you are not in a position of authority over me or any other poster here, so your opinion is not only inaccurate, but also totally irrelevent AND unwelcome.



What?!!!?? And who are YOU to say other poster's opinions are innacurate?! You are truly the pot calling the kettle black. Unbelieveable.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

How can an opinion ever be inaccurate?

AGG

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MB Members:

Just a friendly reminder to keep it respectful.

The Harley's thank you.[/color]