I have a female friend who was in "engaged" to a real winner. A con artist, narcissistic, mentally abusive type, and as it turns out he was actually married to someone else the whole time. He was with my friend for over 3 years.

She finally gathered the courage to dump him when she received a pocket call that revealed he was still married to his so-called ex.

Since then she has made great strides towards getting over him...until last week. He showed up at her door and she spoke to him. He revealed that he had been watching her. He is a full-on stalker. He is also very manipulative. Combine that with her meek nature, and the conversation crushed her. I know the easy answer is "She should enforce no contact", but she simply doesn't have the will...even though she says she doesn't want him to contact her.

Here's where I come in. She doesn't have the courage to stand up for herself and nobody else seems to care, so I'm going to stand up for her. He works in a profession that can be easily impacted by poor behavior outside the workplace, and I can contact the vast majority of his coworkers (and his wife) via email. I stand poised to nuke his [censored] via exposure, describing how he's an adulterer and a stalker. I've heard about this guy for a long time, and it's time someone stuck a fork in him. He's the type who causes the nightmare cheating stories you can read on this site, plus he's potentially dangerous.

I'm looking for input in general. Advice, how to compose the email, opinions, etc.

Avoid name calling.
Avoid the work 'stalker'.
State facts only.


I am writing this at the bequest of (friend).
On (date) (creep's name) became engaged to (friend).
They had dated for (amount of months).
They made plans to (whatever).
They went (places) and did (name things they did together).
They stayed at (motel).
On (date) (friend) discovered (creep) is already married to (wife).
(Friend) told (creep) on (date) that she discovered his marital status and broke off the relationship.
(Creep) showed up at (friend's) door on (date) and informed her that he has been "watching her".
(Friend) is very upset because she does not want anything to do with (creep).
(Friend) is very uneasy about being "watched" by a married man.
This letter is written in the hopes that exposing (creeps) behaviors and actions he will stop bothering (friend) and allow her to heal from this traumatic event.



How's that?
You can't be sued for libel if you state factual events only.

Edit to add:

(Friend) asked me to send this letter for her, because she is afraid of (creep's) reaction if she sent it herself.

PS

She should save all her texts/emails/letters/receipts/etc, that relate to this relationship/affair.
She should also copy these things and give copies to you for safe keeping.

I wouldn't do it. This guy could go ballistic and hurt both you and your friend. Instead I would expose to the guy's wife and ask her to keep her husband away from your friend. Let the man's wife decide if she wants to expose at his workplace.

If you feel that you MUST do it, consult a lawyer first to see what your potential liability would be.

Good points !

Exposure to wife is really paramount.

Thank you both! You bring up good points. I agree that exposing to the wife is priority #1.

I'm not scared of what he might do to me, only what he might do to her. Honestly, if I wasn't afraid of prison I'd beat him to a pulp instead of sending emails.

If you are not afraid, include your cell phone # in the wife's exposure letter.
Tell her to call you if she wants to see the proof. Tell her you have emails/texts/etc.

If wife calls you, you then have her phone #.
You can call wife and re-expose immediately if creep attempts more contact. Which, I'm afraid, he will.

Maybe have this friend stay with you right after exposure?

I would only expose him to his wife and let her decide what to do.

I know you mean well trying to help your friend, but she really needs to stand up to this guy.

How does your friend feel about you doing this?

I think I would talk to the wife in person rather than through email.

Please let us know how this goes. I worry. Thankfully you have given me something that is not in my life to worry about. lol

My friend begged me not to contact his wife, which leaves me with a decision to make: Do I nuke him in spite of her? I think it would be best for her in the long run, but she's not a child, and I'm not her father.

As far as fear for myself, there is none. I can still tap into my D-day inspired bubbling cauldron of rage when I want.

No.

She's a very common female 'type'.
She wants to whine and complain but take no actions.
She's looking to dump on you.
She does not really want things to change.
Why?
Because drama is exciting.
Do not be her dump.

I think Pep is right.

I think I might consider exposing to OMW to help OMW, and end the friendship, to help me.

You both make interesting points, and I'm now putting myself into a Spock-like non-emotional state to make a decision. Thank you.

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Awww ... Pep! All women are NOT like that. But I agree that Krazy should probably stay out of it if his friend doesn't want him to get involved.

I've decided...to do nothing, for now. If my help isn't welcome, fine.

Good thinking. Sometimes we have to learn from our own mistakes - especially if we don't want help.

This is just a nosey question - are you interested in this chic are are you just a bud?

She's the type I would've been interested in, before multiple cheating scumbags ruined her. Now she has more baggage than a 747.

You aren't going to expose to the OMW? Why not? She doesn't know about the affair and your friend doesn't want her to know and is still talking to the OM?

This BW needs to know about this!

Krazy, you are making a lot of excuses for your OW friend (meek personality, baggage, he's a "full-on stalker" etc) but she had an affair with a married man and still has contact with him. There is no excuse for her now that she knows he is married.

If she is begging you not to tell the BW, well, that most likely means she doesn't want the affair/contact to completely end.

I have to be honest, I am shocked that you need to be told that this needs to be exposed to this BW? What am I missing here?

The cold hard facts: she is still allowing him into her life, over and over again, and using you as a soundboard. She is still engaged in an affair and you are rationalizing it by her "meek" nature.

If you really want to help your friend, help her block his phone number with the phone company (she didn't know how?) and assist her at the police station to take out a restraining order against this "stalker" - I suspect you'll find that she hesitates not out of fear but because she's a lot less innocent in this continued contact than she makes out to be.

Have you been a witness to all these so-called one-sided interactions? Were you there when she opened the door to him? Remember, "my husband is dangerous" is a common bluff tactic from wayward wives - but is also a useful tool for the other woman too.

When a dangerous psycho crazy stalker rings your doorbell, you call 911 because he wants to kill you.

When you open the door, chat with him and then complain to a male friend afterwards, you want to get sympathy out of the 'knight with shining armour'.

That may be true. I wasn't clear enough in my original post: When she was dating him, she didn't know he was married. He "had to travel a lot due to his career", etc.

I know it seems stupid. It does to me too...she trusted him blindly. To those us affected by infidelity, not recognizing such a situation seems impossible. When she did finally realize what was going on, she broke it off immediately. He showed up at her door unexpectedly, and she spoke to him for a few minutes in an attempt to get some "whys" answered. It was a futile effort, of course.

I already sent her a link to the county website and the PDF file she needs to file a protection from stalking order. The rest is on her. I'm nobody's knight in shining armor. Not without a healthy salary, anyway. LOL

I don't get the need to expose if she doesn't want you to. It won't keep it from happening again. She has to want it for herself. I don't see the need to destroy someone's marriage (the wife might already know and chooses to be blind) over this. I'm just trying to think how I would have felt if someone had exposed my ex.

I doubt I would do a wide exposure, but the BW has a right to know.

I can tell you how you likely would've felt in the long run: Extraordinarily grateful. I wish someone would've told me long before I found out on my own.

I'm thinking though had I found out like this it would have destroyed me though. And I wouldn't have that precious little boy who has my heart. I'm just weighing it out.

Krazy, are you letting the BW know?

The one exposing wouldn't be the one destroying the M. That would lie solely on the shoulders of the WS. And a marriage ISN'T going to thrive something like an affair being kept secret/with the married man still pursuing the OW anyway.

The off chance that the BW "might know but chooses to blind" shouldn't even be a factor in the decision.

And to further what Susie said, whether or not you would now have your little boy shouldn't be a factor.

The truth should always be told. Those who have knowledge of such a betrayal and keep it silent are complicite in the sin.

What a BS chooses to do with Truth is their business.

We'll have to agree to disagree. :-)

Well, help me understand prissanna. Before you had your child, if your husband was cheating on you, you would have preferred to not be told because of the future child you would have with this cheater (the child whose existance you don't yet know about)?

I'll bet his wife wouldn't mind a little 'help' right now.

Maybe, if someone had had the cojones to expose in your sitch, you wouldn't have had to deal with 17 years worth of a "lying, cheating, womanizing emotional abuser."

This topic is near and dear to my heart. The OWH in my sitch didn't have the balls to man up to his wife because he was afraid of her. So he kept his mouth shut about the affair and let it go from an EA to a PA before I ever found out about it.

I very much resent someone deciding that they know what is best for me and withholding critical knowledge about my life from me.

There is more to it than that actually.

Dr Harley would NEVER agree that keeping the A from a BS is in the best interest of the M or the BS.

Secondly, to suggest that the affair be kept hidden from the BS is going to be offensive, I would gather, to most BSs here on this site [it is to me anyway]. It's the lies & the deception that hurt as much as or more than the actual affair.

Do you understand Dr Harley's views on exposure and radical honesty regarding infidelity?

I find this entire discussion fascinating. The premise that there is some reasonable logic that a person not intimately involved in an affair would force themselves intrusively into another family's life that way just astounds me.

Crushed4X

I think it a bit like watching a crime being committed and not raising an alarm or calling the police.

Would you want someone to warn you that your spouse was sleeping around and exposing you to whatever STDs their affair partner has?

God Bless
Gamma

Reasonably logically premise---someone being harmed by someone they trust. That is reason enough for me.

Gamma/SW...thank you for taking the time to respond to me. We know what we read and the person that wrote it heard it from someone else. It's a story and it's not the writers. Now we may want to assume that what is said is reliable but we are not involved and in the end a story is a story. We have no direct idea what the wife does or does not know nor the validity of what the woman told her friend. Those are just the facts as read. We can believe that what the woman told her friend is accurate but are you ready to counsel someone on a maybe? What if the woman is manipulating her friend. Stories abound on this thread of deception. So, if you want to go down the exposure path, I'd think you'd want to be involved in a definitive way, not guess.

C4X,

While it is true that a story is a story there is often strong correlating evidence, which many people would like to hear about.

If someone were to spot my W at lunch with some guy off in a corner I would like to know about it, and I would not blame the person who told me one bit. I can then do my own investigation and catch them in the act or not. For that matter if my W were at a bar everyday drinking I would like to know about that, or if she were gambling everyday at some casino.

God Bless
Gamma

Understood but in the example you posit there is direct knowledge...not in the thread above and they were thinking of mass exposure. And...this belongs to the woman not her friend...it's her responsibility to do the heavy lifting if there is any to do.

Are we reading the same thread? The OP has been advised over and over to expose to the BW...not to do mass exposure which he has already said he isn't going to do...

No it's this thread. And, for the purpose of clarity and accuracy he absolutely contmplated mass exposure as I said.and you note. Being advised against that action doesn't alter the fact that he was seriously contemplating that action? Regardless it is tangential to the issue in my view which is that it is not his responsibility to expose anything that he has not actually witnessed or been a direct party to.

Interesting...your first argument was not regarding evidence.

Who are you and what is your story?

It is the affair that is the offense. Not the messenger.

I haven't seen you even ask the OP what he has witnessed or what evidence he has?

From looking at the posts he knows that the WH has contacted this OW by email, phone and has come to her apartment on XXX date. This is enough information to the BW to investigate.

SQ...my story is not the issue so let's stay on point. And as a response to your other point, my continuing conversation evolved out of my initial written thoughts.
Prisca...correct but the actions the messenger proposed in my view are not his to take.

Again, how do you know what the OP has for evidence? Why didn't you ask him?

If he knows that the married man was contacting the OW by phone, email and was at her house, again, that is enough evidence. What kind of evidence do you think he needs???

Oh, I think it "on point" to ask who you are and what your story is when you post advice that is not in line with MB.

And you are?

There is no direct knowledge on his part of what occurred based on his story. We have no idea of facilitation other than a story. If in fact it is accurate, then in my view it is the responsibility of the harmed to act. Not a third party with good intentions and no direct knowledge. What I found fascinating was that all the advice that was given was not based on any tangible evidence but a story and the emotion it evoked. Recipe for disaster and harm.

Prisca..."and you are" means what?

I will keep asking you the same darn question - if your concern is what evidence he has...WHY didn't you ask him what his "direct knowledge" is?

So you are refusing to tell us your story? Yes or no will suffice.

Ah, I'm not sure my advice is not in line. Because I advise significant caution prior to an exposure that is out of bounds in your view. My advice of the harmed exposing is within the MB template. I believe you want to act intemperately and that has nothing to do with MB, just my perspective. And, having a story doesn't give someone the bonefides to give advice, just perspective.

Yes or no will suffice.

SQ...the darned answer is you guys already told him to expose. You didn't ask enough...that is the issue.

I am not just referring to this thread, but another where your post was deleted and you were asked to familiarize yourself with MB concepts before posting...

Interesting...I responded with information from nationally recognized organizations and that was not in line with MB concepts...that was my bad and won't happen again. As to this thread, please help me understand what advice I gave that was outside the MB concept. I assumed none as there was no deletion here.thanks.

I think it is likely that crushed4x **EDIT** who opposes exposure, contrary to MB concepts, because he/she wishes to avoid it here for themself. Notice how how he/she refuses to disclose his/her "story" and reason for being here to scrutiny...a tell-tale sign of someone who is defending the indefensibe. I know that tactic well personally from past experience.

Mr/Ms Crushed, if you are not willing to be open & honest with your background and motivations, then please refrain from offering "advice" which your knowledge and experience does not qualify you to give. Unqualified EXPOSURE of infidelity w/o exception is a key and vital MB concept. Thank you for understanding and please proove me wrong if necessary.

Unless I am mistaken, the Policy of Radical Honesty is a Marriage Building concept intended to help couples stay in love with each other.


I have yet to read where Dr Harley has expanded Radical Honesty to the general population of persons known and (perhaps) unknown.

This is not to say that exposure to a third party is wrong or ill-advised. What I am saying is this. I have not read where Dr Harley advises "Radical Honesty" outside romantic relationships. If anyone has read this, please post the link.

This idea of transferring Marriage Builders concepts beyond the bonds of marriage has been discussed before.
In particular, it has been suggested that MB posters avoid "love-busters" when posting to each other.


Unless posters are trying to maintain love for other MB posters, I say this is a misuse of Dr Harley. I will behave independently from all of you, and I certainly hope you do likewise. This is not to say we should act uncivilly towards each other. The rules/guidelines for posting are in the "rules and guidelines".

I think it is ill-advised to tell others try and plug in Harley concepts where they were not intended. Unless YOU want to do that your own self.

As for Krazy's decision. I say to you Krazy, you might apply "How to stay in love" Marriage Building concept such as Radical Honesty toward non romantic relationships IF YOU WANT TO. Not because you think Dr Harley said to. I do not believe he said such a thing.

I respect the concepts too much to misuse them.

Hell, I do not apply "Radical Honesty" with my neighbors. And not with my relatives either. I work the Marriage Builders concept with my dear spouse because I believe Dr Harley's concepts are intended to help us stay in love.

Carry on ...........

I am not a troll.

*** HERE *** is some of my "story".

FYI here is the link to the MB TOS

KZ

Pure conjecture on my part. Intuition maybe?
This gal-pal of yours could be continuing this affair, in one way or another.
She's an OW now.
Insert all the typical OW thinking-babble.
"He's stuck in a bad situation."
"He plans to leave her sometime (soon)."
"If he loved his wife he would never have proposed to me."
"We are soul mates."
......

The usual pile ....



Have you ever met OM/MM?
Have you read the evidence with your own eyes? (be aware: emails & texts can be faked and sent to self)
Have you ever seen photos of them together?
Another possibility is your gal-pal is making stuff up.
She does sound a little screwy.
She may be the stalker.

Just stuff to consider.

Also, KZ ..... you have not witnessed a crime.
You have heard a description of events from a woman who is not entirely believable, and who has a dog in the fight.

I kinda feel like my responses started this mess. I am so sorry. I was just trying to put myself in place of the wife who was cheated on (because I have been in that position more times than I'd like to count even though he denies to this day all but one). I was just trying to figure out if I would have been better off if he had been exposed at the time. I never had proof of even the one affair until I filed divorce and he put it in the discovery papers. (because he couldn't remember which lie he had told. lol)

Someone here said my littlest person shouldn't figure into the factor (that I wouldn't have him had my ex been exposed) but I'm just having a hard time accepting that. Can you give me your reasoning?

I thought they were calling Crushed a troll not you. Priss is so confused. lol

I'm having trouble understand your question.
Could you please restate it more clearly?
Thanks.

Understand this.
I am a HUGE advocate of exposure of adultery.
It is the BETRAYED spouse's most effective tool for ending the affair.

I am saying that I am not aware of Dr Harley recommending his Marriage Building concepts be used outside the marriage. (ie: Radical Honesty)


EXPOSURE 101

Calling a poster a troll could be a violation of TOS.
I was being ironic.

((( Priss )))

I said this: I'm thinking though had I found out like this it would have destroyed me though. And I wouldn't have that precious little boy who has my heart. I'm just weighing it out.

Smiling Woman said this: whether or not you would now have your little boy shouldn't be a factor.

I was just asking clarification on her remark.

Thanks for the {{{HUGS}}} Lawd knows I need them. I thought you thought you were being called a troll. lol Blonde I am not but I act like it at times.

I have absolutely zero interest in what 'nationally recognized' organizations may have to say about this issue. There is enough evidence for exposure on this site alone from betrayed spouses who are stunned to learn of their wayward's betrayal. Salt is poured into their wound when they find out that others knew of the affair and decided not to share this knowledge with them. It is a double betrayal at that point.

Your hard work to use legalese to parse your posts does not impress me. The bottom line on this very emotional issue is made starkly plain in the posts of the betrayed spouses who come here. They ALWAYS feel doubly betrayed by the people who knew and chose to hide that part of the their reality from them. How DARE they make a decision like that!!

Using verbal calisthenics to push for hiding this 'nasty little secret' is disengenuous and lacks any cohesive binding when it is rolled out into a room filled with survivors of adultery. Touting 'nationally recognized organizations' will gain you no traction here. You are talking to the people in the trenches, crushed. We're the ones who've actually been on the battle lines. We don't need to hear fancy jargon and have statistics from the 'experts' quoted to us to tell us how we should feel. Actually, we (sadly) ARE the experts.

I'd like to hear your story, as well. Maybe it will cast some light upon the very old, very dangerous idea of hiding secrets from the very people who should know them.

We can twiddle about this until the cows come home, and the fact will continue to remain: the OP feels, based on his knowledge of his friend, that he has compelling evidence of the affair. He feels (quite rightly) that the innocent spouse deserves to have this knowledge. This isn't rocket science.

Pepperband...thank you for so eloquently and simply making the points I was trying to make so clumsily.
Prissana...I appreciate your sensitivity to the subject
SDCW...there may come a time and place I choose to tell my story,...you created a situational paradigm that is not within the marriage builder concepts because you have created the corralary that I have to earn the right to post by sharing my story...that is incorrect...and unless you are psychic you have no idea what my motivations are...and I see you were edited so should I ask you to refrain from posting.

This is not your thread to make such a request, although you may certainly request that SDCW not post to YOU. If you start your own thread and prefer that certain posters not post to you, you can make your preference known at that point.

Just a little housekeeping note for you

I own my point.
Make your own. TOS

I'm going to t/j this thread long enough to answer this. I didn't see the original comment, but I think I know the point you were attempting to make.

If your WH had been exposed, the path of your marriage may not have ended in divorce. Your little guy would still be here. You are speculating about an outcome that didn't happen.

End t/j.

Maritalblisss...if you have an opportunity please review the thread where you object to my using the term national organizations...it was in a response to a note left to me on this thread that had been deleted from another thread and nothing to do with exposure...and I apologize if the way I write and words I choose make you uncomfortable but as long as I am not impolite or inappropriate...as for housekeeping...I used the incorrect verbiage and should have said offer advice as he said to me...thank you for correcting me.
Pepperband...I did and do but I still allow for the concept of thanks
There is a certain amount of vitriol here that is unfathomable and confuses me. A conversation where I have had a differing position but within the concepts as supported by pepperband's thread has led to significant negative discourse aimed at me and had my motives questioned. And, it seems if I don't share my story my motives are inappropriate and my comments are without merit except fot negative criticism regardless if I am on point. Interesting.

That hit me after I typed it out. Dur! lol However, ex is a compulsive liar and a cheat (I truly feel sorry for his new wife - crazy huh?). But I gave him many chances to change so you are probably right that the littlest person would still be in my life. I don't know how the ending would have turned out had I had PROOF of his infidelity.

KZ - I'm thread-jacking.
Tell me if you want me to stop.


There was a time when MelodyLane was being harangued for "Not following MB principles" because she used DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENTS regarding the affair partner or an active wayward from time to time.

Those finger-wagging posts went something like this:

"You preach MB principles but you don't follow them because you are being DISRESPECTFUL when you say adulterers rut like pigs in the mud."

No kidding.
They were like a posse trying to corral Mel in and get her to stop being DISRESPECTFUL to stupid waywards..... They were relentless. They were on a mission to get Mel to follow anti-love busting rules on the forum.

Me ~~~> "Oy-vey"

Mel finally just used her sense of humor. "I'm sorry I was being disrespectful .... to the pigs."

Harley clearly states why DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENTS are on his love-buster list. If Mel had been courting the MB forum posse in hopes they might fall in love with her .... she missed the mark!

My point:

MB Basic Concepts are intended to build Marriages.

If you or I (anyone) decides to employ those concepts elsewhere outside the marriage relationship, it is a personal decision, not Dr Harley advice.

If I am wrong, link to show me.

You are correct. You do not HAVE to tell your story to post but be prepared for folks to give your posts little weight around here. We don't play games and your lack of openness and honesty is a huge red flag.

What you DO have to do is post "advice" based on MB as you agreed to do when you signed up for membership. Posting is a privilege, not a right. Eleoquent words have no value if the meaning is to do harm. So far, every one of your posts are antagonistic and argumentative. You won't be around for very long if you keep that up. Just sayin.

BTW, you sound very familiar to me.

My thoughts as well.

TOS

Princessmeggy...in one condescending post you've managed to question my integrity, threaten me with potential expulsion and mischacterize my posts. But for purposes of clarity, my point was always temperance before a person outside the marriage exposed...to anyone. That was it. Solely. Completely. Totally. If urging caution was harmful please explain to me how. However, If my pushing back when my words are taken out of context is antagonistic or argumentative, well.......

I wouldn't consider it 'vitriol' so much as a drive to keep these threads real. Of course this is the MB website. Of course we are here to guide posters, using MB concepts.

We are advising this poster to disclose his knowledge of the affair based on a few things: our understanding that affairs can only survive when the wayward begins a secret second life that does not include his spouse. This is the hallmark of dishonesty and is critical for the affair to be able to continue.

This poster has compelling knowledge of the affair. Based on my story alone, I am advising this poster to reveal this affair to the unsuspecting spouse. I would consider it a kindness. Covering up this knowledge and looking the other way isn't consistent with honesty.

Dr. Harley:


I can't agree more. And I'll go you one step further: I have made it clear to everyone around me that I will never help prop up an affair by keeping an adulterer's secret. If I were to find out that an acquaintance was having an affair, I'd be on the phone in a heartbeat. Because I know what it's like to be a betrayed spouse who is being kept in the dark while the dirty little secret continues to grow. To do less would be dishonest of ME.

Now. As far as your story: your background is important for the other posters to know because it gives them a sense of how you are arriving at your position. We have a better sense of where you're coming from when we know what you've dealt with in the way of infidelity. You don't ever need to tell your story, of course. However, you understand that your posts may likely be given less merit because you are an unknown quantity.

Just my two bits.

Maybe radical honesty was the wrong word to use? But I was asking prissana about honesty in marriage regarding infidelity because of this:



We aren't helping this couple's M or the BW in KZ's case by keeping the affair/married man's still pursuing the OW a secret.

I honestly don't know what ought to be done.
I distrust this gal-pal and her rendition of the facts.
I'd hate KZ to expose himself to some legal action if it turns out this is not what he was originally told.

I think it's fine you want KZ to expose.
I'm unconvinced right now. KZ might be played for the fool.

Pepperband...This has been my point from the beginning. There seems to be an overwhelming need from some on the thread to expose at all costs regardless of the strength of the information and I was only asking for the exercise of caution. Also, MB concepts as I understand them is between the spouses, not from an outsider inserting themselves especially one that may have less than completely factual information.

Let me share a brief story from my past.

I was the OW. I was not a WW, I was a single OW. We were exposed to the BW by my friend and the BW did the rest. I was very angry at her. So was he. Exposure killed the affair, and I have no idea what happened with the couple after that.

I said all the same crap that your friend is telling you. I too, did not know he was married (and when I found out, believed the same tripe and kept going). I said the same thing about him showing up at the door. Honestly/ for a single OW, it's practically a script.

So here I am, what, 10 years later? Have no idea what happened to that friend, I guess she felt I was an immoral person to keep in her life. And she was right, at the time. I have grown so much, and have her to thank.

I'm not telling you what to do OP, but I am just showing you a consequence that can happen. I was only 20 at the time and yes, there are girls who are truly that naive but being naive does not mean that you are exempt from the harsh lessons of life and morals - quite the opposite, actually.

Can he get into legal trouble if he tells the BW only what he knows?

I have a friend XXX who told me she was in a three year relationship with your H. She told me she broke it off when she found out he was married. From what she told me he has emailed and called her and was at her place last week on XXX date trying to contact her again.

Something along those lines? Then the BW should pretty easily be able to investigate on her end.

Knowing KZ, I just find it hard to believe that KZ was ready to nuclear expose this including to the guy's workplace if he didn't have direct knowledge of the A?

Krazy, where are you?

I don't know. >shrugs<
If what he "knows" turns out to be false, could he get into trouble?

This is where I am coming from. See below.
My recent FB status update.

Marriage Builders concepts address the marriage; it does not address exposure in other marriages so that is a moot point. It doesn't address it because it has nothing to do with the marriage. It also doesn't address the price of tea in China but that doesn't mean we can't buy Chinese tea bags. ["can't buy tea because it's not one of the MB concepts!"]

A person has a moral obligation to expose an affair when they have concrete evidence, regardless of one's relationship to the victim. For example, if my neighbor's bookkeeper was embezzling his money I could not use the excuse that this was "between the neighbor and his bookkeeper" to avoid telling the truth. That would not fly with my conscience. We have a moral obligation to warn our fellow man when he is being harmed behind his back.

I haven't read this entire thread so I dont' know all the facts, but I would have to be pretty darn sure there was an affair in order to expose. And by sure, I don't mean an unrealistic level of evidence, [a video of them having sex] but compelling enough evidence to reasonably conclude the existence of an affair.

Prolly watching football.

This post made my day!

Not really. You did not ask the OP what evidence/direct knowledge he had and in your first post on this thread you said this:

Forgive me, this is a little off point and for my education but I am confused by your premise. I was under the impression that the information on the threads was a direct reflection of the MB principles which are between spouses as I understand it. The position you describe is that as long as there is some direct tangible evidence to expose regardless of this person being outside the marriage. I may have missed this . Is this Dr.Harley's/Marriage Builders position that there is a moral obligation to expose an affair regardless of the fact exposure comes from outside the spouses. If that is the case, I would appreciate it if you could direct me to the link or radio broadcast so I can follow up. Thanks.

What astounds me is a person who would not "intrude" if he knew someone was being harmed behind his back. What kind of a person does not intervene when he possesses such information? Not a person who has any principles, that is who.

One of the hardest things I have ever done is call a board member's husband in New Zealand to inform him that his wife had resumed her affair with the OM. He was extremely grateful and so was his WW once her fog rolled off.

I am not aware that Dr Harley has ever addressed it. Maybe so, maybe not. And why would he? Like my tea in China analogy, it falls outside of his focus.

It falls into our own arenas of personal responsibility.
Some, like myself, are more cautious.
But, I am not imposing my caution on anyone else .... except offering my caution to my friend KZ. Because, he's been known to go crazy-krazy. But, not recently.

Agree. And this was my point.

You cannot steal this point!

This is MY point !

Dat is my point!!

ML...I get that. You had direct knowledge and followed your path. In this case based on what is written, we don't know if the knowledge shared is accurate. I only cautioned temperance. And, he initially was contemplating nuclear exposure.
SQ...my next thread explains in detail after the one you note why I cautioned patience. As for evidence, there were four pages of conversation prior to my note that included counsel of possible legal action if he was wrong. Regardless, one of his initial responses was nuclear exposure of an event that was based on...what. My point was and continues to be patience and my secondary point is, is this a MB concept to expose if you are not in the marriage. I have been blasted for giving advice outside of the MB concepts and yet I can't find this one. So maybe you can help me with that. Thanks

I completely undstand your point and agree but, the rules of the road for MB speak with clarity about espousing and giving guidance based on those principles. If you give personal advice based on your morals or principles, where is the line. I would think that because this information is not part of the MB concepts it is out of bounds.

Dr. Harley, in principle, does advocate exposure of affairs and addresses it to the people in the marriage.[his audience] He doesnt' ever say "don't expose if it is not your marriage." But then, that is outside of his focus so why would he say that?

In principle, people CAN give non-MB advice here when it doesn't conflict with Dr. Harley's advice. When it does, it goes against the TOS. In this instance, there is nothing against the TOS the prevents folks from discussing exposure of an affair outside their own marriages.

Your feigned innocence of complete MB knowledge is noted. A thorough reading of this thread should make clear that we use Dr. Harley's concepts to build strong marriages. That's his whole goal and we endorse it. However, we do not come to the table as blank robotic slates. We bring our own experiences and personalities, which help to form our moral code. We are responding according to our moral code, which, IMO, more closely aligns to Dr. H's belief in honesty than another person's belief in keeping secrets might.

The impression I came away with regarding your posts is that the OP has no business in 'inserting' himself into someone else's marriage. Even if that were true, I believe the marriage has already been 'inserted into' by a third party who is having sex with one of the spouses. My posts to you have been made to dispute your assertion.

Apparently you didn't read the TOS very carefully - but if you have concerns, you should report the posts to the moderators. Do you have a LINK to the EXACT TOS you believe is being violated? :

here

I would look at this from a different perspective that Dr. Harley's focus is in fact about marriage preservation and enhancement and this falls in that purview. Not to beat a dead horse, but you could make this argument for almost any of the MB concepts. I would have thought if this issue was significant because this seems to be a regular occurrence in the universe of marriage dynamic, that Dr. Harley would be specific otherwise it seems to be to each their own regarding opinions and I thought we wanted to avoid that type of inconsistency. Thanks.

How does this issue have anything to do with "marriage preservation and enhancement?" Please note that Krazy is not married, btw.


But that doesn't address my point so I don't know what you mean. You need to be more specific.


"We?" Who is "we?" Do you run the board?

ML...to address your points one by one...1) if there is in fact an issue within the marriage that Krazy inserts himself into, that could potentially be extremely damaging. Particularly if his information is inaccurate. Again, I only cautioned for temperance and clarity 2) this is your opinion wrapped in MB concepts, not Dr. Harley's. I only wanted to differentiate between the two 3) Gonna pass on this one
As to response on policy question, I interpreted where it said other marriage programs to broadly. My mistake.

Don't disagree here.


WHAT is my "opinion wrapped up in MB concepts?" I don't know what you are talking about. Can you be specific?


Gotcha..

Dr. Harley's concepts focus on the specific marriage and the behaviors of the two spouses within it. I have not read any of his writings that would suggest that he has broadened his focus to include directing the behaviors of friends and acquaintances of the spouses.

Maritalblisss...correct...I didn't think he should and neither do some others on the thread...but folks need to follow their own conscience. What if he exposes and is wrong? I'll always exercise on the side of caution. The exposure bell incorrectly hit never gets unsung.

Maritalblisss...exactly...that's why Krazy should not get directly involved.

huh? Are you saying that Krazy should not do anything unless it is suggested by Dr Harley?

But that's not what I said. Read my post again. I am explaining to you why your attempt to combine the issue of personal responsibility of a human with MB concepts is a distraction to the actual topic.

I think Krazy feels he has compelling evidence of a crime against a human being. I think he should disclose this evidence to the victim and let them make their own decision as to what they should do with it.

And saying that - I'm sorry, but circular arguments become tedious for me. Maybe I have ADHD. I will not be continuing this debate, as it appears that you desire to debate for the sake of debate. That sort of thing is of no value to me.

ML...it is your opinion that even though something is not specifically written on MB that you broaden the concept, (ie: Chinese tea). Regarding the exposure it was your opinion based on the MB concept of exposure to expose infidelity even though a spouse may not be doing the exposing.

ML...I am saying he should not do anything without irrefutable proof and direct knowledge, (it seems you had both from your prior note when you exposed someone so no issue on that from me) and that there is not an MB concept that directs those outside the marriage to expose.

Maritalblisss...my desire is that no one takes precipitous action without direct knowledge and involvement and even then tread carefully. Neither of which seemed apparent in these notes. If you feel that is a distraction we have very different points of view on being responsible. Questioning my motives and integrity because we have differing points of view is counter productive.

No, it is reality. It is a matter of reality that there are things written outside of Marriage Builders that you can do. For example, I just did my work out. I did not need or require a MB concept to do this. In the same vein, my opinion about exposure in other marriages has nothing to do with MB, even though exposure - in GENERAL - is advocated by Dr Harley.

This is my advice, having been in Krazy's "friend" position once.

Give the betrayed wife what evidence he has (considering this was a three year relationship with engagement, surely there is something?).

Allow the friend to cut off the friendship if that is her reaction to the exposure because yes, she'll be upset.

IMO, it is what a true friend does. A true friend does not stand idle and watch their friend do such a horrible thing to another person, by continuing the affair. This girl is continuing it, and using Krazy as a dumping pot because nobody else wants to listen anymore (*"nobody seems to care....").

Again, that is my own perspective as being this FRIEND at once upon a time and who suffered the wrath of exposure from my *own* friend, but I have 10 years of reflection to see it was the right thing to do.

Whether anyone else believes it is right or wrong, that is for them to decide, but I know it was right now.

When your friend is a drug addict, you don't drive them to the street corner for their fix. So you don't allow her to dump on you about her addiction either. Sometimes being a friend means tossing her into a cold harsh reality.

Excellent advice, alis! I agree completely. It harms nothing if he gives the wife his evidence and allows her to investigate herself. I wouldnt' take it beyond the wife, though.

Krazy71,
I would encourage OW to get a restraining order, block his email, texts, FB, phone, etc.

I would encourage her to share her evidence with BW so she can deal with it as she deems best. If she refuses, you could share whatever evidence you have, so long as you can back it with proof so you aren't going to be sued for libel and you aren't harming someone who might be innocent.

I don't know if you ever met the WH or not. I don't know if you have seen anything first hand or not. That would determine the degree to which you expose to BW.

And if OW refused to expose or end A, I would break off contact with her due to moral differences. That's just me, you can do what you see best.

I kinda feel sorry for Krazy. He's got A LOT of catching up to do.

I wanted to give myself the day to reflect on the thread I participated with several of you on the last 24 hours and share what this experience has been like for me.
I have been a member and reading threads for about 4 years. In that time I watched as most of you on this thread gave advice and counsel with best intentions to those in need of help with infidelity or other marriage related issues based on the MB concepts. I chose not to share my story. While others receive comfort in it, that is not my way.
During the course of my participation in this thread, my honesty, integrity and motives were brought into question. Why? Because I wouldn"t share my story. Because I sounded like someone else (I have never been on the threads before). Because I didn't agree with others plan of action. It was as if there is an eliteism of counselers and if you don't follow that template you are villified. I certainly was. Along with being misquoted and mischacterized.
As for the story itself,I went back and reviewed the entire thread again just to ensure my facts are correct. We were informed, a woman was engaged to a man that she ultimately found out was married. This is absolutely horrible and tragic. No person should be treated this way. She informed her friend and they shared that story on the thread seeking counsel. Here's where the story gets confusing. For the first few pages the story comes to light and the immediate response from the storyteller is he is going to expose and considering using the nuclear option. While he was dissuaded from that argument almost all that gave counsel wanted to expose the affair to the wife.
I was dumbfounded. I made a decision, not an easy one for me, to join the conversation because based on what I knew of MB and learned from reading from most of you over the years this action seemed percipitous and intemperate on several levels:
1) we don't know if the story is accurate
2) we don't know what the wife and husband relationship is
3) we don"t know if there was a motivation on the woman's part
4) the woman did not want to expose
Seems like a lot we don't know. Regardless, several of the posters wanted immediately to expose to the wife. I was beat up for not asking questions, well, I was a little late to the game. My counsel which got lost in the noise was:
1)temperance
2)patience
3)verification
Clearly, I take responsibility for allowing myself to get off track and not sticking to the point and allowing myself to respond to the off kilter posts from some of you the way I did. Regardless, in my view we have no idea what was going on so we should not give any counsel regarding exposure at that point and we don't even know if our poster knows the wife and he was counseled to expose to her.
Lastly, I was informed by some of you that it was our moral imperative and responsibility to expose a relationship we were aware of. So my questions are, at all costs? To a stranger? Without direct knowledge? Really?
I was under the impression, mistakenly as several of you were kind enough to point out so rigorously, that we stuck to the MB concepts with zeal. In attempting to follow those principles I was informed that we can expand on the concepts even though they are not endorsed specifically by Dr. Harley. The analogy I was given and I am paraphrasing was even though Dr. Harley doesn't specify exercise as one of his concepts it doesn't prevent us from exercising. But Dr. Harley does specify exposure within the bounds of marriage and does not mention a word of exposing infidelity to a betrayed spouse by a stranger.. In my view it is here the analogy unravels.
In the end, I became the issue instead of poster and that is my bad.
Just a part of my story, for several years I have been responsible for investigating sexual harrassment and hostile work environment cases. I have significant backgound in these types of deceptive issues as a professional. I don't state this to be condescending, I say it because I look at things dispassionately so I can make decisions without emotion or jumping to conclusions regardless how reprehensible the situations I investigate appear. My sense is that is a challenge for some here. In some cases some of the information you shared has been invaluable in helping me. Yesterday I saw posts that were going down a horrible path with hardly any definitive knowledge and making decisions based on air.
So I posted, based on some of your reactions, not so good.
I will continue to read the counsel you give and use it as I can, but to be attacked and villified because I haven't shared my scars, don't agree, won't expose out of hand and immediately without thought and put peoples marriages in jeopardy for no good reason. I think I'll pass on that one.
I wish you all the best.

I've been wondering why this thread has been going on in the "After Divorce: Dating and Relationships" thread.

From my reading, Krazy71 has already resolved the issue to his own satisfaction.

Wow! It looks like I should clarify some things:

The only evidence I have is what my friend told me, but I have no reason to think she's being dishonest. I've known about the man in question for a long time, and what he did to her. When she found out he was married, she did contact his wife. It had little effect, likely because she is a weak-willed doormat as I once was.

Her reasoning for not wanting me to contact the wife is that she thinks he will stay away for good this time, and exposing him will only make him more likely to seek further contact. She has a bit of a weak will too, obviously.

This isn't a case of an OW desiring to continue an affair, I assure you. This is a case of an unwilling participant in a past affair who was/is being stalked by the guy.

I understand it is easy to see red flags all over the place. Once you get caught up in "affairism", everything is seen through infidelity-colored glasses.

((( KZ )))

Thanks for the clarification.
Have a great Monday.

Pepperband...Thanks for the clarification??? That's it??? Really???
The OW already exposed to the wife and KZ never mentions it....not once...he is counseled by several folks on the first few pages of this thread to expose to the wife, including you and he responds to each post and never once says the OW already exposed.
Where is the outrage? Where are the questions of why he never shared that critical piece of information.
I counseled patience and temperance before giving counsel and this is why. I also counseled that KZ not get involved. this is why.
And...I would counsel that the only advice posters ever give to someone not directly involved in a MB type situation is to get the person directly involved on the board. If they choose not to that's their decision.
I would hope that the folks who were originally on this thread go back and review what they wrote and allow for a certain amount of introspection on what was written and how someone that has a differing point of view than theirs was treated.
Thanks.

Outrage? Come on, it's an internet message board, not life and death.

Yes, you already told us how you feel about a third party exposing to a BS:

This has been gone over...extensively. Many don't agree and told you why and under what circumstances they would expose. *sheesh*

Who are you, crushed?
It's not that your views are different.
It's that you won't tell us who you are.
You don't have to.
But why should we listen to someone who refuses to be anything more than a stranger?

And I would counsel people to ignore comments from dodgy posters who don't want to explain why they are here or give us any way of judging how familiar they are with Marriage Builders concepts and who argue against key parts of Marriage Builders on other threads.

Especially since we've had a lot of problems with that on the past.

I would also counsel people to hit "notify" on posts that conflict with Marriage Builders concepts.

Outrage...absolutely...there was a critical piece of information that was omitted...and counsel was given without all the facts that were in your possession that would have impacted that counsel...and when you talk about exposing to anyone...that is life and death...of a marriage...relationship...self respect...yes life and death...
SusieQ...and I reiterated that point based on what has transpired in an effort to perhaps have some of those folks reflect on their positions and maybe change their mind..."sheesh"

My advice to Krazy remains the same.

Good advice that I am going to follow!

heh ... whatever.

I think crushed said she worked on sexual harassment cases. My observation is that professionals don't really 'get' this forum. Argumentative thread jacking seems to be their standard operating procedure.

You have it backwards. NOT exposing is often a matter of life and death. Spouses are routinely exposed to STDs, wiped out financially, etc, etc, so the greatest risk is in NOT KNOWING. It wouldn't hurt a BS to be told of an affair and then discover it was not true, but it would hurt a BS to not be told when it IS true.

When a betrayed spouse is being destroyed behind her back that is critical information about her own life. It would be immoral and irresponsible to NOT inform such a person. Krazy has every reason to believe the affair is true, and even if it was not, the BS could be given all the necessary information so she could investigate for herself.

The evidence that Krazy possesses is plenty enough evidence to be warranted in exposing to this BS, however, he seems to believe that the OW herself has already informed the BS.

crushed, you have very irrational, fuzzy views about adultery that are obviously influenced by society. I would suggest you put those aside and use your thinking cap instead. People like you are dangerous.

I don't know.
I looked and looked for my outrage, but it seems to have gone missing.
I imagine it will return when outrage is obliged by dire circumstances.

And I will demonstrate why your judgment is impaired by addressing some of your "reasons" for advocating against exposure:


Krazy has first person testimony. That is legitimate evidence of an affair.


Utterly irrelevant. The status of their relationship means nothing.


Irrelevant. Her motivation means nothing. What matters is if it is true.


Again irrelevant. The BS's need and right to know supercede the perp's desires.

If you are going to step in and lecture others on the advice they give, you should make sure your own advice makes sense. What you listed here makes no sense and reflects a lack of thinking on your part.

**edit**

This topic has gone astray from its original purpose and is being locked.

Let's please confine ourselves to marriage building and Marriage Builders topics.