I'm posting this here because I think the root of the problem stems from an emotional issue. Not sex.

I've been with my wife for six years. Married for one. We each have a child from a previous marriage and have a 1 year old together. She's been home with that child for the year or so and tells me she's feeling caged. She's 34. I'm 38. I can see how she needs to get outside of the house for some non-crying baby time for herself to be her. I get that.

Recently, she has been persued by a man (35) at one of our local night spots.She wasn't out looking for trouble. It kinda found her. She regected it for some time over several nights or months. She's very good at telling guys she's married. And that's why I trust her. I've never doubted her.

She was out four nights last week. She says he's the only man that she's ever been attraced to in the past seven years in a lustful way to want to sleep with. Generally, the guys are kinda creepy at clubs. She kissed him last Tuesday and then asked me for one get out of jail free card to sleep with him while explaining she loves me and wants to be with me when I'm old and gray. That's cool. Nice to have the reassurance. But it's also hard to hear the first part for the first time. It was a shocker at first. But I'm getting used the idea now. I've had mixed emotions throughout the past week about how to react. And I think I've experience the entire range of emotions. Rage, anger, jealously. Loss, etc. Then once I came down from all that, I began to look at this differently.

She also pronounced that monogomy isn't natural and I'd have permission to sleep with somebody if I wanted with us both agreeing on a set of rules. Yet she doesn't want to be swingers or even be considered in an open marriage because she's not sure she's planning on doing it again. Just now. Just once to feel alive, etc. To feel young perhaps. It's just something she needs to do! The sex with a stranger has to be some deep-rooted need that's going unmet. Thoughts? Or it's just a release... :-)

Sure, our relationship isn't without issues. Too many to count. Like most couples I'm sure. I know our issues and my involvement has contributed to this in some way. I'm happy that she's honest enough to come to me. That meant the world. Really.... who does that anymore?

My choice is simple. Do I allow it and it makes us stronger but not without the risk of divorce? Do I put my foot down and say no. Then she could do it anyway and not tell me? Or some combination? My gut says set her free. She'll come back stronger. People should be who they want to be in life.

I'm here searching for advice as to both our emotional state of minds.

I've encouraged her to go back to work. Take-up a hobby, Put our son in daycare more days to have more time for herself.

She's bottled-up, caged-in and anxious. I need to find a way to help her before she does this... or not... Everybody gets old. Everybody has desire to do this stuff here and there. Perhaps there's a combination of me helping her and she helping herself. We're looking for a shrink now to get outside help

BTW, her first hubby cheated on her with her best friend. I met her while cheating on my wife.I've cheated on my first wife four times. I've also been way guilty of questionable actions but never crossed the line. Nor did I really want to... otherwise, I may have already I think. I guess I have it coming :-) I should examine why I did what I did. But this is different, because she's being open and not running around behind my back. Sounds bad I know. But I felt we both learned from our first failed marriages and we made a promise not to cheat on each other six years ago. Well, here we are, and she's popped the question. And this could just be a case of needing an open relationship of sorts. While I'm open. I'm also scared of what I might feel before, during and afterwards. But if I remain open and come around to a new way of thinking, perhaps, we'll be happier than ever. And that is music to my ears.


++++++ New

Since posting this, I've told my wife about posting this. She said she may get on this thread to put it in her words. That will be interesting to have both perspectives if that happens.

Thoughts? Questions?

Spanx:

Welcome ...

Have you read "Coping with infidelity: How do affairs begin?" on this site? That may be a good starting point for you both to talk about. She is spending time away from you at clubs and getting attention. Sleeping with someone else will not turn back the clock for her but will cause problems for you both IMHO. Taking the EN questionnaire together would identify a host of needs listed in your post.

How could that be? For example if I have hunger for food, I may be hungry for french toast, but if oatmeal is all I have, I can eat that and it will satisfy my need. I may have wanted french toast, but I don't think anyone would call that a need. (Can you tell I'm dieting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) Your W is very fortunate to have such an understanding husband, but you know you will regret this if you allow it. Brainstorm with her how you can meet her need for SF within your marriage.

this sounds like the root problem, why she's going to clubs and where this value system reigns. Brainstorm how she can uncage herself without going to the clubs where men are persuing her. Perhaps going to a gym that has child care and taking an dance aerobics class will allow her to get her energy out and make friends in a better environment? You've heard the expression, "If you play with fire, you're going to get burned."

Welcome. I am fairly new also. I have posted my issues here and rec'd lots of valuable and insightful advice and suggestions.

I am currently in the process of listening to His Needs, Her Needs on CD. It is awesome! One of the things Dr. Harley says is that couples must spend recreational activities together, not apart. This solidifies their connection and gives the couple other things for talking instead of just the normal 'bills, and children', which keeps the connection also.

IMHO I would not allow my H to do that. Sorry, just not in my personality. I would have great difficulty w/my H kissing another woman. I don't think sleeping with another person outside of your marriage and spouse is the way to heal issues or bring you closer to each other.

Be careful, but follow your heart. Can you allow her to do this in "an effort to help your marriage" without it causing YOU hurt and pain???

Have you thought about marriage counseling to discuss WHY your W feels a need to do this? Why also is she going out four times in one week without you? The HNHN CD also addresses Emotional Needs of men and women...also great info. It's as if Dr. Harley is TEACHING men & women HOW to interact in a positive and continually loving manner - thus bringing them closer to each other than ever before. I wish I had known about this group and this book/CD BEFORE my H went wacky, I could have saved a lot of hurt...but I am still hopeful that I can do that. I have learned a lot from this CD set and I've just began listening to CD#4 in a 5-disc set.

I am NOT chastising or criticising you or your W; I guess I am just asking the "hard questions"; questions I would ask myself or a close friend with the same issue.

Good Luck to you.

Stay tapped in to this group, read everything you can here, there are lots of wise people in this forum and I assume on the infidelity forum as well.

I will say a prayer for you and your W, if you are OK with that.




<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you were to say yes, ask her to video tape it and play it every morning when you wake up, after all it would play in your mind for the rest of your life so you mise well have all the details right. My first of many many major concerns is that she is trying to save her conscience from an action that she's already done. Having affairs will not provide positively to your marriage. You may tell her

"I cannot stop you from having an affair, however, I have set up marital councelling for us with Dr. So and So to work on the problems in our marriage that have led us to this place, I, personally, would like to work on building a strong marriage not tearing apart a family."

Then she has a choice and it's hers to make. If she agrees to working on the marriage then you are going to have to ask her to temporarily suspend her nights out and have absolutely no contact with this man she's already had an affair with.

Not sure yet. I think so. But you never know until it's done. I can honestly say that I trust her and her need to communicate about this means something positive. I like the advice above about finding-out the root of this issue. And somehow channeling the need elsewhere. But , if she needs this, I don't want to stand in her way. It would only cage her more and make her recent me perhaps.

I agree that you should take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire together. I'm guessing that your wife has unmet emotional needs and that sex isn't at the top of the list. Just maybe recreational companionship, affection and admiration are.

Are you familiar with the Policy of Undivided Attention? Is your marriage getting 15 hours per week or are you spending too much time apart?

Remember that your most favourite moments should be spent together. If your wife is having more fun outside of the marriage that in it, you're in for some trouble.


Just maybe this is a cry for help. What does your wife say she needs from you?


Mrs. W8ing

Different strokes for different strokes but are you sure that you're really ok with this? Are you sure she hasn't worn you down and you feel like you've lost your core and self respect and are willing to say ok to anything she wants? (sort of like a male version of battered woman's syndrome?)

You say you trust her. Yet she kissed this guy of her own will and without permission from you, right? She was approached by this guy and was tempted. Yet she choose to go back to that same place where he'd be 4 nights in a row, right? At that point it's not trouble looking for her, it's her playing with trouble/fire. I think you should really review if she is trust-worthy or not.

Her thinking is very loose if you ask me. I mean... you really have to ask yourself what IS your marriage? You are going to look outside of sexual satisfaction, possibly emotional satisfaction, obviously comittment has been weakened. Past promises (wedding vows) broken. I mean... what is it that your wife or you are going to stand for? What is your identity as a couple?

If I were in your shoes I'd do one of two things. Divorce her for not possessing the values and common sense that would have allowed for you to have a marriage. Or, give up on your marriage totally, tell her you are only staying married for the sake of the children. That you will no longer sleep with her or rely on her for emotional support or love and go find women (an affair) that will fill that need and then divorce her just as soon as your youngest kid graduated from highschool.

Spanx, these particular quotes stood out to me, and I found them very disturbing.

I must agree with everyone else that adultery will not help your marriage in any way. She's kissed this man, and has been seeing him at the club for some time now. Obviously, they have a relationship already, tho perhaps without sex. You already have a problem -- aside from deciding how to answer her selfish request. Don't be fooled that once she does it "just this one time" that her itch will go away. It'll just open up the flood gates, bro. That it will.

I really, really feel for you, Spanx. You've been put in a terribly unfair and difficult situation. Personally, I think you should request that you both visit a good pro-marriage MC for X months before you will consider making a decision on her request. Likely she'll balk at that, but that'll show you where her interests really are at this point.

I concur that His Needs/Her Needs would be very helpful to you. As would a call to Steve Harley or Jennifer.

Good luck to you, Spanx. Don't give in to this just because you think it'll make her happy. It won't, and you shouldn't. Giving away the integrity and sanctity of your marriage for a cheap thrill is a bad idea.

Lori

From what I understand, she's always been the kind of girl that gets her social and fun release from clubbing. It's in her make-up. It's not like she's looking for sex out at the clubs. It's her way of escaping and being part of subculture. Why was she out four nights in one week? Prolly because the pressures of our household are getting out of control. Why without me? Because we can't always get a sitter and she needs non-me time too. And I'm not exactly a ball of fun at the clubs anyway. I spend the whole night looking at the ceiling. Perhaps, my disengagement emotionally needs some addressing.

Over the time I've been here, I've seen several similar requests really blow up. Unfortunately, the only one who's name I can recall was probably the least similar to your situation. YourW seems to have an attachment to a particular man, vs a more general interest in exploring...and your W is instigating it...still, you might find some of his posts interesting...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...true#Post276041

My wife says she needs me to be more emotional present and involved with our household. I need to laugh, cry and get angry. Express myself more.

I do fear her going out too much without me. I love the comment about I should be spending time with her when she's engaged with fun stuff. the stuff she loves most. We need to experience that stuff together (and apart).

There's a balancing act. I can't control her. I can't let things get too lose and out of control. That's how I drifted away from my first marriage. While I trust her when she says she'll come home to me always. I can't help think I should be inserting myself into some of these moments so too much doesn't pass without enough shared experiences outside of our child-care and household needs that we drift apart. A strong marriage and relationship should be able to make things work.

You say several things that bother me. For one, you say "you never know till it's done" but I'm sure you also realize this is one of those things that once it's done, you can't undo. You buy a car and decide it's a gas guzzler, you can always take it back with little or no harm. But your wife sleeping with another man and it turns out you can't handle it... you can never undo it. Is that seriously something you're willing to risk?!! Is your marriage not more precious and fragile than to treat it soo cavalierly?

People feel caged all the time. There's a correct way and incorrect way to feel free and let off steam. If your wife didn't have sex with you for a year, you have the choice to go have an affair, or to masterbate. One may not be as good as the other but at least with masterbation you take care of the need in a way that doesn't hurt your wife, compromise your integrity or comittment to her, etc etc.

There are 1,000 ways for your wife to feel less caged including going out to dinner with female friends, taking up a sport/hobbie, spending some time at her parents or brother/sister's house, getting a part time job... and if the need IS sexual, there's the option of her viewing porn or even some much kinkier things where she could dabble in that world but not physically get involved herself. Going out to nightclubs and sleeping with someone besides her husband is not the correct way to do it.

I hear ya all. Thanks so far for the advice. There are some open people here. I would like to explore the issues with her before she does anything. It could just be a case of her needing something I can't give her. That doesn't mean we should divorce. Considering my past, I shouldn't be shocked to the reasons she's needing this. I've been there and then gone home to my wife. Granted, I had issues and I finaly got divorced... in this case, I'd much rather challenge this head-on and see what can be done to resolve some deep-rooted issues between us. Perhaps, the kiss was my wake-up call to fix my end of stuff? I just hope we can work through the core issues before something stupid happens... And I'm not saying her need is stupid.. I'm just expressing that there's an unknown with the topic and nobody can really predict how it would turn-out. REALLY. Because life and people are unpredictable.

I've had multiple conversations about this with friends and my wife. We speak every day about it. Over the course of the week since, I've gained a better understanding of what's what. I don't know everything. But I know this one thing. This has caused me to open my eyes to what's wrong. I can't solve every issue overnight. But I can finally see things clearly and I care enough to seek solutions to come out on top.... ohh wait... I like her on top :-)

It's said that the only people sicker than a sick person is the people living with that person. (((Spank))) Enabling her self demand will never promote a good marriage. The core of the issue is rotten and nothing good can come of it however bad can seep from it at all cracks.

Your marriage has issues, no doubt. A symptom of that is your wife clubbing. Another symptom is her kissing another dude (which I would probably choose not to believe). Another symptom is her withing to bump uglies with this other dude. You'll notice those are all symptoms. Where is the problem, that is what needs treatment.

I think you are going to have to look at some basic facts right now real fast and in a hurry. Your wife is in a physical affair (whether or not they've done it or not is not really relivant) that spawned from an emotional affair. She has taken from the marriage that what was intended for the marriage, her emotions. If in any way you allow this to continue than you add to her abandonment of the marriage and become a willing partner in the destruction of the instituation of marriage.

To me that she's expressed this desire tells me that she's already done it and is looking to ease her guilt or that she is on the verge. Either way it has to be stopped RIGHT NOW, probided you wish to save your marriage and salvage any chance of a recovery.

There are various means to stopping affairs. An obvious effort should be on getting her and yourself into counselling. Another route could be to expose their affair, especially if he's a married dude. But no matter what, DO NOT ENABLE BAD BEHAVIOR and expect good results......

A bunch of you keep saying don't allow it.
What can I do? I can tell her what to do and what not to do. My stance is to give her permission and let her make up her own mind. I won't be the typical male [censored] that controls women. She needs to decide what's important. She needs to make the final call. It will mean 1000x more if she decides not to do this and come home to me. And the fact that she's open about it and communicating means even more.

I plan on talking more to her about this. I'll do whatever I can to understand the root and help her through it in any way I can. The rest is all her.

I agree that once it's done you can't take it back. Quite honestly, I don't know exactly how I'll feel. It's very hard to think about. But other times, I'm cool with it.

We're seeking marriage counciling now. It would be my request that nothing happens until we get some issues resolved to know exactly what's going on. Maybe then, we'll have more answers and be able to make informed decisions.

Excellent choice.

Show her this, too:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Borrowing from the other thread
--------------
1. 3 years ago I noticed my W seemed to be distant and I noticed a lack of affection and this really started to bother me. I couldnt get her to talk.

2. Shortly after I found out that she was searching for an old BF and answered a Classmates.com profile with "looking to hook up with an old flame" before her HS reunion. I looked the other way thinking it would blow over and then had an angry outburst after the reunion. BTW he didnt show. Trust became a big issue after this because I snooped and she did this behind my back.

3. Arguments escalated over the next couple of years with us bringing up a lot of old stuff. She said once in anger that she called a lawyer.

4. Lack of affection continued until I suggested we open the marriage up to her. I sensed she was feeling "middle aged" at 38. The open marriage really brought us closer and we had a lot of fun...for awhile.
------------------------------------------
This goes deeper into the point I was making earlier. This unhealthy way of "feeling free" worked for them for a while. At first, it even seemed good. Let's say you have a back injury and you take heroine to kill the pain. In the early stages, it might even seem like a good thing! The pain is gone!! But soon, all the side-effects of doing the wrong thing to solve a problem emerges. I strongly suspect it will be the same with your wife and you. She will be happy for a short while. But when you see all the additional problem that stem from the situation, it'll be too big of a mess to know how to fix it.

I'm sorry brother. You've got it all turned around in your head. There's a difference between telling someone exactly what it is that you want and are not comfortable with, not giving your blessing or permission, and FORCING someone to do what you want. Strapping a chastedy belt on her or following her around or taking away her car or things like that.... that's her wanting to go against your will and you controlling things around her to keep her from excersising her own will. But to say "NO, I am not ok with you sleeping with another man; I can not stay married to you if that's what you do".... that may conflict with what she wants to do... but it's not forcing her to do anything. She is free to excersise whatever will she wants; however that choice will have a consequence in terms of you being willing to have a relatioinship with her.

I ask you to really think about this and form a crystal clean idea about this because if you don't, everything is this hazy foggy area where each of you are allowed to do whatever it is you please and the other has no right to be opposed. It's the "everything goes" mentality and we all know that doesn't work. Even the hippies abandonded those ideas as they got older and had families and realized it simply doesn't work for a marriage/raising good cildren.

First, don't enable bad behavior.


Definately your choice however if you say "Honey, it's ok for you to screw so and so" and she does it then she is only doing what you said was OK to do. You have taken your power away. You can't say "How could you?" because you've told her how. Be honest. Hey, maybe your into letting your wife do her thang as long as she throws you a crumb every now and then, that's your choice. BUT if you're not 100% OK with it then if nothing else BE HONEST. I was only 1/2 joking about having her video tape it. PS. If you've screwed up in the past, that doesn't write the check for her to screw up now, two wrongs don't make a right.


Many people see various similarities between affairs and addiction. She may not possess the power to decide and it would be easier to stay in her addiction rather than deal with the problems. If you enable her to do so, I would pretty much bet on it. No different than buying a alcoholic a drink hoping he won't drink it.....

i feel like you are setting her up to fail you.

i think you want to avoid conflict by telling her the choice is hers.

but, why not be honest and tell her how it makes you FEEL to think of her having sex with another man?
maybe that's what she needs to hear from you to feel loved and treasured BY YOU.
she is craving excitement and attention. you could be the one to give her both.
if you tell her to make her own choice she may feel like you are not passionate enough about her to fight for her.

It's not controlling or unresonable to want your spouce to be faithful. It's controlling and unresonable for her to demand her 'freedom' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />. Dont agree to anything that insane, you'd be hurting yourself. Take care of yourself the way you'd want your children protected. Dont give her the gun, point it at you, and beg her to pull the trigger! That's insane, really. You'll regret it, always.

I'm sure she wouldnt be happy if you started sleeping around. If that's how the relationship is going to be, get the D, first! At least it will keep the STD's to a minimum. Yikes! I hope the MC goes well. Please take care of yourself!! - Dru

Curious...From all the advice that says don't do it... how many of you are religious are movitated by religion? The reason I bring this up. I think conservative folks will base decisions on religous beliefs. We're not religious.. Doesn't mean we can't aphold standards and morals... just food for thought.

Also, I hope she gets on this forum to speak her side of things. And if she does, please be open. Don't jump down her throat. We're doing what we can to work through this openly and constructively.

One time about three years ago. I was faced with an issue. I was out of town on business and a female co-worker and I took in a hot tub in a LA hotel. Outdoor, public place with other people. After a while, I felt she was hinting around for you know what.. I thought about it for a bit. And decided not to do anything. Went to bed. I never told my wife about that until recently. How is her meeting somebody recently any different than my actions? We both were faced with the decision to do or not do something. She choose to tell me about it and now we've had five days of emotional craziness. Wouldn't she had been better off not saying anything while she worked this out for herself?? LIke I did? Isn't she the better of the two of us for telling me?

I read that thread:
The Policy of Joint Agreement

Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse

Interesting. She told me she won't do anything until I'm on board with her way of thinking. And that's what I intend to do. Get on 100% the same page so I get it. I'm close to getting there. It's black and white for her. and a little gray for me.. But, if she can get me in her mind and we have an agreement, what's wrong with anything we decide?

I'm with LostHusband. She may have already done it.

I don't think so. I know her enough to know she's not-guilty. I don't think a kiss is cheating either. At the end of the day, because she's so open, I can do nothing but have faith in her words. And that my friends, is good enough for me. If she says she hasn't she hasn't. If she did and lied about it. That's just a lie. And it will come-out in the wash.

I'm going to be honest with you...I didn't read on the posts on here but I just can't believe you are even TRYING to get yourself to a place to give the stamp of approval for your W to sleep with someone else...it crazy, just crazy.
Relationships and intimacy are built on trust. If this happens it's going to be a blow to trust and intimacy.
I'm a Christian, but this really has nothing to do with that for me. Where would your trust be? How would you feel...it's reminiscent of "indecent proposal" if you caught that movie.
If you want to start all over with trust issues...
But if you want to start all over and just rebuild what is missing/lost, than do that.
I think it is selfish for her to even ask. It's appalling...why be married? What she wants is a single life! It would break my heart if this were my H...just not good, no good can come from it!

Hmmm, at the risk of my advice coming off as too Judeo-Christian and closed minded to you, I'd like to ask, how did you feel when she told you she kissed a man at the bar? Happy for her that she's not going to feel so caged any more? That's what enthusiastic means. If you're looking for approval, dude, the site is called marriage builders. The advice is based on what builds strong marriages. I don't think I ever read a study that says marriages with affairs last longer because it helps the partners avoid that caged feeling. Read around some more, and you will find how to make your marriage together the opposite of a cage. There aren't any needs your W has that she wouldn't rather you meet than some stranger, maybe she doesn't know how to ask? I think you came to this website because that's what you want.

Yes, I'm here for help. I'm here. I'm talking openly with my W about it. I'm planning on professional help. I'll pull out all the stops to save my marriage. And one thing in a lot of ways has nothing to do with another.Perhaps, there's a forum that's about being in a semi-open relationship and building marriages? If that exists :-) And what if I have temptation in the future? I'm human. Why can't I act on it now? Not about getting even. But just experiencing life, pleasure and emotion. I'm not looking for it as she says she's not. Sometimes, life presents opportunities. And life is about living. Perhaps, I'm looking at this wrong. Perhaps, I'm messed-up.

I just have to look at not just this issue, but our marriage and everything in life as something to be considered. Until now, I haven't really thought about what and if I'd do anything if she did. I wouldn't do it out of revenge. And it would be that if we had an agreement.

I'm an open person. I've experiemented with lots of things. At the end of the day, we have to make-up our own minds about what makes us happy.

“””Doesn't mean we can't uphold standards and morals... just food for thought.”””

So in the standards and morals you uphold, do you believe that it is a good thing for your wife to jump on another dude? I’m further presuming that y’all modified your wedding vows say something like “Forsaking all others, unless she feels caged”. No, y’all made a promise, religious or not, to be only with each other, right? Oh, and if she does this dude and gets pregnant, what then? Or if she catches a case, what then?

”””Isn't she the better of the two of us for telling me?”””

Well I ain’t usually the one to keep score and would usually say neither is better, just different. But unless you made out with the hot tub chic, then there really was nothing to tell. Your wife, on the other hand, has been meeting with and AT LEAST kissing another dude.

“””Interesting. She told me she won't do anything until I'm on board with her way of thinking.”””

She told you this before or after she had already breeched your trust by at least making out with the dude? In my humble opinion she’s already shown the capacity to hide, manipulate, and cheat. So now she’s looking for a permission slip to do it out in the open where there will be no guilt.

Believe it or not, I’ve hung around these boards several years and have seen this scenario in the early stages and after it’s happened many many times and have never ever seen it come to a positive outcome after the deed was done. Heck one guy let his wife bone another and then clammed up on his turn and was tormented by thoughts of another man penetrating his wife, when it was he who was the one who wanted to screw around.

Let me ask you something else since y’all seem so open. What are you going to think if she comes back amazed at the size of his member? What if she comes back telling you that you stink in the sack compared to this dude? Are you OK with all that?

If you could tell this audience of educated marriage building people who this could possibly provide positively to your marriage, I’d say we are all ears. Thus far, I can see absolutely no positives what so ever.

Quote

She also pronounced that monogomy isn't natural and I'd have permission to sleep with somebody if I wanted with us both agreeing on a set of rules. Yet she doesn't want to be swingers or even be considered in an open marriage because she's not sure she's planning on doing it again.

This doesn't make much sense--if she feels monogamy is unnatural, why did she get married at all?

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BTW, her first hubby cheated on her with her best friend.

So, I'm guessing something OTHER than the affair caused her to divorce him? Just assuming that monogamy is unnatural and all, you'd think she would have been okay with that.

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I've encouraged her to go back to work. Take-up a hobby, Put our son in daycare more days to have more time for herself.

Right--these are normal and healthy ways to keep up your morale after having cared for a baby for one year. Strange though, her way of fixing the problem is having sex with a man she met in a club. I'm having trouble understanding why the "normal" solutions for her problem aren't working for her. I have to say, I don't know very many women who want to have sex with another man after having to stay home and care for their child.

Quote

Curious...From all the advice that says don't do it... how many of you are religious are movitated by religion? The reason I bring this up. I think conservative folks will base decisions on religous beliefs. We're not religious.. Doesn't mean we can't aphold standards and morals... just food for thought.

My Husband and I don't subscribe to any kind of religion, but when we married, we promised to remain faithful to each other. That's part of the contract and that's something that we wouldn't have committed to if we felt that we might want to have sex with other people in the future.

I understand that you're trying to be open-minded and see her point, but there may not be a very good reason for her wanting to have sex with another man except that she WANTS to. Have you asked yourself if her having sex with another man will HELP your relationship or HINDER it? I'm guessing that if she goes through with this, the next argument you have will involve someone bringing up the the "scheduled" affair that she had. How could it NOT enter into your relationship? You're brining another man into the picture who gets to bang your Wife, without having any responsibility toward HER or your household. Why should HE have that luxury?

I have a huge problem with her allowing YOU to have an affair, as well. Have you considered that she's using that as "bait" so you'll give your blessing for HER affair? Beware--if this affair doesn't turn out the way SHE wants it to, your affair could easily turn into a nightmare. Surely, the rules will change if her fling goes sour.

Have you considered your child in all of this? When a couple swings or chooses to bring other people into their relationship, it's their choice, but when a child is involved, it becomes a very selfish act. You have no way of knowing whether your Wife will even stay with you after she experiments with another man. You're questioning whether she wants to do this for "emotional" reasons...if that's true, then it seems that you can't be sure HOW she'll react once she begins having sex with him. You're sacrificing a stable home for your child by even considering this!

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Wouldn't she had been better off not saying anything while she worked this out for herself?? LIke I did? Isn't she the better of the two of us for telling me?

She might have been better off not saying anything about it, but she knew very well that if she decided to have sex with another man and got CAUGHT, things would be very hairy. Some people, faced with this scenario, would rather come "clean". It helps them feel less deceitful.

Is she the better one for having told you? Perhaps. I don't know...if disclosing possible affairs is your yardstick for measuring your personal worth, then I suppose you have yourself a pretty good wife. Personally, I'd rather have my Husband discuss problems with me so we can come to a mutally acceptable solution that doesn't involve loveless sex with some bar fly...but that's just me. You have to ask yourself how her actions will HELP your marriage in the future. I see no positive benefits in this.

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I'm an open person. I've experiemented with lots of things. At the end of the day, we have to make-up our own minds about what makes us happy.

I think you assumed your Wife would be faithful when you married or you wouldn't have married at all. Try not to delude yourself...

It's not about penis size. This issue is not about that. That's silly.

OK I'm here for my stoning.

First of all, I appreciate my husband fairly representing the current situation. If there is one thing we can both agree on it's that am being truthful. So discussing whether or not I have already done it is not productive.

The other thing I would like to clear up is that I was not out with this guy for 4 nights last week! Not even once.

And here's where I am at. I love my husband very much. I want to grow old with him. Our relationship is anything but traditional and I thrive best this way. We both come from a long line of failed marriages (family, friends, colleages and personally) due to infidlity and dishonesty. I have always been the cheatee and never the cheater. The dishonesty would be more than I could handle.

So my unorthodox ideas are that I would communicate this situation with my husband. I have since learned in the past week, that my husband has already been tempted in this way and chose to say nothing about his night. Kudos for my honesty.

A good read, though not exactly down my alley...
"It is known that everyone is attracted to, or has sexual thoughts, about someone else when they're in a long term relationship. Yet the deceit and dishonesty that goes hand-in-hand with infidelity is still one of the biggest causes of heartbreak and failure within a relationship. So does the open relationship answer this age old dilemma, do they work in the long term and what are the benefits and drawbacks?

The issues surrounding polygamy are unresolved. Has modern life evolved to a level that's too complex for an open relationship to work, or do we simply not have the emotional strength to commit to one? But given that most of us are cheating and lying anyway, is the alternative any more palatable?"

What do you mean by "religious"? I ask b/c I am spiritual, I believe in God, Son , & Holy Ghost. I also respect others for their beliefs, even if different. I have NOT read the entire Bible...just a few stories/books here & there. I am not a 'Bible-thumper" nor can I be found in prayer at all times of the day & night and I cannot quote scriptures. I speak to The Man and I know in MY heart that ultimately it is HE who is in real control. "Organized religion" doesn't mean much to me....you can be Christian and someone else Jewish and both be "Spiritual". IMHO The Creator wishes us to love & respect each other & get along together while on this Earth.

I base my advice/opinion to your situation on my heart. There is NO WAY in H*LL that I could stand for my H sleeping with another woman...NO WAY! This is not Christian-based, religious-based, or morally-based...this is ME-based.

It cannot bring anything good. Sure there have been sitcoms that depict "swingers" as connected, full of love for each other, etc...I don't buy that! Marriage is a commitment based on trust and integrity...meant to be shared between 2 people - and 2 people only. Your spouse is supposed to be THE ONE AND ONLY person whom you can be totally yourself & honest with. This is the one person who TRULY KNOWS the real YOU. Marriage is not something one-sided to be used for selfish fulfillment...it is a shared-intimacy and a TRUE relationship in every sense of the word.

I am sorry if I sound harsh...this just bugs me. We are such an instant gratification and disposable society - it flippin drives me nuts!!! What happened to our wedding vows, whether religious-based, said in a church or written by yourselves, said to each other from your hearts while standing in the middle of a flippin horse barn? These are words of commitment said to each other...not to also include the occasional visitor! Give me a break!


Yes, you were faced with an issue - should I or shouldn't I and you decided NOT to and didn't feel a need to tell your W. Not a problem, to me. She has gone BEYOND being faced with a situation to acting on that situation. I am not sure why she is even talking to you about this - maybe it's b/c either (1) she wants help from you to save her from doing the unthinkable (to her) - or (2) b/c she already has done it and wants to cover her tracks. Heck, I have NO CLUE. I do know that NO, b/c she is telling you what HAS occured and is ASKING permission to go further...this DOES NOT make her the better of the two of you.

Sorry, I just cannot fathom asking my H (or my H asking me) persmission to sleep with another man (woman). I am shocked. Maybe I am naive and simple and somewhat sheltered, but married people are not supposed to do this to each other.

Whew, Dude! Where is your self-worth? Do you love this woman so much that you are willing to sacrafice yourself for her or do you NOT love yourself therefore whatever she does is fine with you? That is what my IC and possibly my MC would probably ask. Think about what people are saying here.

Sorry, guess your situation and your replies to advice you have rec'd is just too much for me.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide.

LH, I love your posts! Tell it like it is!!!!
I've since read the rest of this thread and I'm telling ya, this is just nonsense!!!
WHY not just get divorced now?!
That's where you're heading.
I'd like to find out what it is in you that would even CONSIDER this? Is it because you get a "free pass" too? What kind of jargon is that...free pass to screw someone else???!!! Are you afraid of conflict? Is that what it is? When you were listing out your feelings...anger, rage, jealousy...where were the positive ones? NOTHING good can come from this!!! I don't care if you are married, or just dating and have a commitment... the bottom line is trust, and she's broke that already kissing some dude. You just aren't going to have anything without it!!
What do you want your kids growing up thinking? You have his hers and ours in the kid section now...isn't that enough?
Work on your marriage-YOUR issues. She's going to do what she wants! If she feels guilty, she should. You both made a commitment to each other... if she can't hold up her end of the bargain then she needs to step off! If you work on your issues and what you can do, then maybe you will be better in your next relationship and learn that you deserve to have that commitment made to you...
This site IS called Marriage Builders. So far in this thread I've not seen anyone real hip on this idea. You won't find it anywhere on here, and I hope no one that agrees to this.
I am on here to learn how to build a strong, healthy marriage that will involve love and respect. These people here have good advice. I hope you listen to it...affairs (and let's call a spade a spade here-that's what this would be!) do nothing but tear a marriage down and there are hundreds of people on here trying to get their marriage back on track. You have the power to say what you feel and perhaps stop it if it hasn't already happened. You have, right now some preventative things.... get to counseling now!!!

Well Honestly, I think y'all ought to start by reading His Needs/Her Needs and the Basic Concepts on this site. Further, I think y'all ought to shelf any idea of any others for an indefinite period and work at building a strong satisfying marriage.

I think y'all ought to take the emotional needs survey on this site and begin meeting each others emotional needs. I think y'all ought to eliminate all Love Busters, Disrespectful Judgements, Angry Outbursts, and Independent Behaviors. If you read through the stuff on this site you'll find the 3 States of Mind in Marriage. From y'alls description it sounds like the Misses is in "Conflict", why not see if y'all can both get back to the "Intimacy" stage.

Then a year down the line when you have a healthy fulfilling marriage if'n one of you still wants to step outside the marriage then entertain it honestly then. From what little description y'all have presented, it truly doesn't sound like this marriage is in a healthy enough state that it could withstand a lot more turmoil....

And Dude, I wasn't saying this was about size or anything like that but find it amusing that out of everything I posted you picked up on that. What it is about is the unknown, the pandora's box this opens. If you true are truly open and honest then you're probably going to think you want some details and those details may be the thing that honestly sinks this ship....

Do you believe that you have experienced everything you can in your marriage? Do you know your wife's top emotional needs? Does she know yours? Are you willing to step outside of your comfort zone to meet your wife's needs -- as opposed to being uncomfortable with her having them met elsewhere? Are you providing a Love Buster-free zone? "Be all that you can be" doesn't just apply to the Army. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W8ing

Why hasn't anyone responded to my wife's post. This is the most interesting aspect of it all. We're both here searching for answers yet nobody has addressed her thoughts so far.

I'm in an airport 1000 miles from home. I'd love to hear what you all think and perhaps you can respond directly to my wife's words and see if together, the two of us and this group/forum can offer some help. We truly are here for help to build on our marriage. Really.

I can relate to what your wife says. i'll cast no stones!
it stinks to play by all the rules and then find out you have been lied to and cheated on.
i am social and always enjoyed clubbing and dancing etc....and i am very open and honest and do not get off on the excitement of cheating and hiding.
i understand feeling caged in and the need to feel excited and i think you are looking to feel swept off your feet so you can really enjoy sex again..........w/o all the burdens of a relationship. i can relate to that.

if i were you (spanxs wife) i think i'd be wondering what i missed on and i might even be alittle afraid of never having that feeling again.....and i think that you show a real honest and open nature by bringing this up with your husband.
my question would be to your H.......how does it make you FEEL? to think of your wife with another man?
and can you be honest with her about that?

I hadn't responded a second time because I thought I had shared what I have to offer. But, okay, I'll aanother stab.

We're not here to 'stone' anyone, just offer perspective that we think can help when people ask.

How do you think your H would feel if you were to go through with this? How do you feel about causing him discomfort?

Do you think this enticing guy at the bar is the only one who can meet your need for SF? How could your H provide this? What could you do with this guy that wouldn't be more incredible and memorable done with your H? Is there something you could do with your H to create a memory that would make you feel so happy every time you thought of it? Is there anything you'd like to ask him to try, but not sure how to ask him?

In what way do you think an affair would lead to a stronger marriage?

How is the rest of your M (marriage)? MB offers skills that will help you meet each other's needs, negotiate conflict, and eliminate LBs (love busters). How does this sound to you?

Have you read the posts your H got on affairs? There's a lot of wisdom there IMO. What did you think?

I will throw in my two cents to Mr. and Mrs. Spank and whoever wants to read it....
Infidelity is infidelity...Don't matter who asked permission or not. If you want to believe that the reason for all the heartbreak is all the cheating and lying then why the heck did you get married if you don't plan to stay true and honest to what you vowed when you got married? It does not matter to me one way or another if you cheated or were cheated on, or if you were lied to, or was honest, marriage is between a husband and a wife. As far as I am concerned, kissing this guy is just about as bad. It don't matter if you were with this guy 20 nights in a row or 15 minutes. You kissed him and want to have sex with him as a "temporaroy high". Sometimes people want to try a drug for this same reason with bad results or even death. Knowing that is enough to make me steer clear of trying it. Same with an affair.

Sounds like you two have your minds made up and both think it is ok...So why did you come here to ask and then get mad when people don't see things your way...Go screw the guy. Maybe your third marriage will be the charm.
Seems like you are asking for honest opinions and not liking anyone who does not say what you want to hear. You surely don't have to listen to anyone hear, you are grown adulterers......have it your way....

nia17 Thanks for trying to understand and casting no stones. Even better thanks for being a fellow clubber. I can't expect that much of the population to understand this lifestyle. It is my livelyhood and has been since I was 14 years old. SpankMix is a DJ name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I never said I was OK and this was alright.

The Mr. and Mrs. Spank address makes me laugh.

SpankMixs Delusional Wife

"If the grass is always greener on the other side" for someone, it will take more than an affair for them to be happy. If you like you're attracted to your neighbor's car, do you steal it? No, we do without lots of stuff that we are attracted to, and it doesn't bother most of us one bit.

I don't see how this would fix anything. Nope, don't see any benefits, only drawbacks. Do you know of any societies that promote open marriage? Why do you think this is? Do you know of any happy open relationships?

Emotional strength? A loaded term, huh?

That would be a strange reason for open marriage. Would child abuse hurt less if everyone talked about it? You know from your own experience how infidelity hurts. Have you looked at the infidelity forum?

Anyway, the point is, if you gave 100 reasons, and I couldn't find a fault with any of them, would that convince me that you and your husband would have gotten more out of life if you indulged in this? No, it wouldn't change my mind at all. What if we gave you 100 ways giving MB a shot would grow your marriage, would it change your mind?

Hi Spank and Mrs Spank. I can relate to this situation. My H and I were together for 12 years when I found myself falling for another man. I struggled with it for months before telling him about it. I was in two minds about the situation - on one hand I was extremely physically attracted to the OM and all my hormones were voting for an affair. On the other hand, I did love my H and wanted to spend the rest of my life with him, just like you two. I was a complete mess with the conflict, never having been in the situation before. (I'll add too that we are not at all religious.)

So, while one part of me wanted the opportunity to experience a sexual relationship with OM, another part of me just wanted to be anchored back in reality by H. I expected him to be upset and angry and swear not to let me go in a million years. To cut a long story short, he told me to "go get out of my system". I cannot describe the feeling of abandonment I experienced. I was lost in a sea of emotion and hormonal urgings, and the one thing I thought I could rely on to keep me afloat had cast me adrift.

So my hormones won that argument, much to my everlasting regret. It turned our whole life upside down, and the focus went to the affair, rather than the problems that *led* to the affair.

We are divorced now. While we did get past the affair, other issues finally became identifiable and we were unable to resolve them. I don't say the affair caused the divorce, because I believe the issues would have eventually become apparent on their own, but it made for pure ****** for 3 years for H and I and our family.

I know now that my falling for OM was a *symptom* of our issues, and I believe that had they been properly addressed earlier things would have been resolved. They may still have ended in divorce, but at least the three years of ****** could have been avoided.

I really hope you two work on things. I know too well the feeling of being stuck at home with the kids, with a H who is not meeting my emotional needs. Mr Spank, you said earlier that Mrs Spank wanted you to be more emotional. She is expressing her NEEDS. And if you focus on meeting those needs it is much less likely that outside attractions will occur. A woman whose emotional needs are being met is usually a happy, horny (for whoever is filling the needs) woman!

I'm glad that your relationship is open enough for you to talk about this before anything goes awry, but this is a wake up call for both of you. Ignore meeting each other's emotional needs, entertain the notion of allowing affairs, and things can only get worse in the long run. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't let yourselves end up the same way as H and I.

I wish you all the best ((((((Mr and Mrs Spank))))))

LSNE

(Edited to say: Have you guys checked out the Emotional Needs questionnaire? It's well worth doing so you know what each other needs the most.)

We understand all about it. Been there, done that. Then we had kids. LOL

Go with your H for a date night. It'll be much more fun.

Good post Shock! I agree with it all!

Okay, I'll bite again for the W in this situation...
I don't see where H did anything to cause any dishonesty. He was hit on in a hot tub. He retired to his room and showed some maturity, self control, and I assume respect for you... Where is your respect, self control and maturity? You sound like a child who can't get what they want! Well, why can't I (insert whiney voice), what am I hurting? I want what I want and I want it now! You want to grow old with someone, but don't have the ability to keep your legs closed to do it?! Why are you married?
Then you come to a forum that is called MARRIAGE BUILDERS and want us to tell ya, hey, sure go ahead!!!
What we (I guess I should stick with I here...) What *I* am doing here is trying to recover from a marriage that went bad due to an affair, I want my next marriage to work. I want my next relationship to work. But I know it doesn't just come automatically. If I'm going to be happy with someone (and them me), I have to work at it. I have to be in some ways selfless, I have to put their best interest before myselfish needs if there is a chance it will hurt them. They, in turn, will need to be able to identify their needs so I can attempt to meet them. I can't meet them if I don't know what they are and I may not be able to meet ALL of them, but I certainly wouldn't BLATENLY hurt them!!! If I make that vow, to say, hey baby, I'm in this with you... 6 years ago, 6 years from now, heck 60 if that's how long we are around. I'm going to give you my heart, me, who I am, and in turn, I'm going to accept you.
Do you REALLY think you aren't hurting your H??
Even by asking, I would be crushed!
Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back there...you aren't getting any kudos from me by ASKING for permission to cheat.
This almost feels like a RAT to me... anyone else???
What do you want us to tell you? And then like Shock said, you get upset when all of us are here to be better and you want our blessings on something that does not sit well with us? You ask how to build your marriage and then walk away and do it anyway?
Now that I've got my anger out of the way...
Let's say you don't do this...
Let's say that you TRULY love your husband, therefore, want what's best for him and your relationship and you get a little self control and maturity about you and DON'T do what the heck you want...
Let's say then, that you make a fresh commitment to each other and decide that you DO want a better relationship...
Go to counseling, read what's on here, agree (POJA) that this isn't an option in your marriage. Re-connect. Check out each other's needs... work on yourselves... Let's say in a year from now W, you are getting all that excitement from your H because you BOTH took the chance on EACH OTHER to do what you set out to do, I pressume, initially when you got married. Let's say you do grow old together, and you're still in love and you are sitting on your front porch and you one day say... Remember when I was thinking about screwing around on you? Gosh, I'm SO glad I didn't, because I love you so much, that would have hurt you so bad...
As opposed to being single because neither of you did anything to make anything better in your lives?
Listen, it's easy to cheat, it's easy to justify it all... or so I understand...
is that what you want? Or do you want to work for something good?

I am not trying to be a jerk or anything, but let me add this...
My wife and I got married 18 years ago. We said our vows to each other, we meant them. My wife is going through some very very rough emotional things right now. I would bet my life she has not cheated now or ever. She has told me time and time again that she wants no other man. With my LB in full swing and her emotional state, we have been sparated for about 4 months now. She has told me she could not blame me for seeking another woman and she even gave me permission to date. My love bank has had almost no deposits from her for almost a year (not talking about sex only, my top EN is probably companionship) My wife is concentrating on our boys, working and just enjoying some space.

Having a conversation of questionable content or even holding another womans hand is OUT OF THE QUESTION. That would constitute an affair IMO. My ring will not come off of my finger and I will not seek another woman, date another woman or be involved in ANY way with another woman as long as we are MARRIED. She is my wife and I am her husband. I know in her heart she would not want me to even look into another womans eyes and smile. Even if she had an affair, it would not change my stance. I meant what I said 18 years ago. She has made many LB towards me and deposited nothing...I would still take a bullet for her..She is my wife.....PERIOD!!!!

If you don't think I am hurting...Please refer to my poem I posted earlier today....

Bill

Ms Spanx,

Dishonesty is indeed one of the biggest hurdles to overcome when recovering from infidelity....so I really do think that your willingness to be open about your feelings is a good thing. Research shows that there are some huge gender differences in how folks view infidelity though. Women in general are more upset about the lies. Men, more upset about the sex. Honesty is always better....but is it enough to help your husband deal with the aftermath of knowing you've shared yourself this intimately with someone else? My guess is no....and the reason is because I've mentored so many husband's who could never get the pictures out of their heads.

Truth is....I've had some experience mentoring folks with open marriages and I don't know any of them that would recommend the step you two are thinking of taking. They have huge regrets. All of them thought that if it was honest, it would be okay. It wasn't okay....it created more chaos and heartbreak than you can possibly imagine. Everyone thinks they can predict how they will act and feel....and you can't. It may seem possible for instance, to compartmentalize emotions and sex....and find out later you can't. I know so many spouses who said "okay" only to find out that the emotional connection created by that intimacy was not easy to break....and instead the marriage broke.

I have plenty more to add....but have to go cook dinner. I'm going to try and get a couple of husbands I know who were in similar situations to answer you guys if I can. It would mean more coming from them I think....but please wait a while, work on the marriage in the meantime.

I have done a great deal of research on this stuff....and I've yet to find anything that shows this as "good" for a marriage....or good for person. Open marriage, polyamory, swinging....have the basis in the idea that monogamy is not natural and so if we can come up with an ethical way to have more lovers....that would be more really cool. But it's just an illusion...it falls apart when put into practice.

I too see nothing wrong or dishonest about your husband in the hot tub. Some would argue it was a risky thing to be doing in the first place (hot tub with co-worker) but he did the right thing and turned it down. If a similar thing happened to me, I MAY choose not to tell my wife. Maybe my wife would demand that I quit my job or call the woman up angry. It wouldn't be the most open thing to do not to tell her but it wouldn't be dishonest or wrong if I thought I wasn't putting myself at continued risk for an affair by not telling her.

You on the other hand KISSED a guy and told your husband after the fact! Tell me what's soo open and great about that! Your husband has the upper hand in morality by a long shot!!

Well, kudos to her for asking for permission, and thats about all the kudos I am giving her. If you want to take a shaky relationship and ROCK IT TO THE GROUND, then go ahead. have some dumb sex with some guy. Your wife is 34 and going to clubs? Why? It soudns to me like she lacks attention and wants affection. She wants to sleep with another man even though she committed to marraige and monogomy, but some guy comes along and that's it, she wants to break all that and you tell her to FIND A JOB?!
She wants to feel single, without techinically being single. Been there, done that.
You know, looking back at my past mistakes, thinknig and trying to convince myself of the same garbage led me to the emotional mess I am in.
I would recommend that she doesn't complicate her life anymore, and use this man as a fantasy in the bedroom with you, and stay away from clubs...34 is kind of OLD to be bar hopping...I am 29 and stopped a few years back...and even then it wasnt really bar hopping because I have a family.
I jsut dont think you are going to get anything out of this that is beneficial, bottom line..I say that from experience.

I just want to state that:

1. A married person is going to have moments where they find someone besides their spouse attractive. There will be moments of temptation no matter how good your relationship or how wonderful your spouse is. The real difference comes with what you do about it. Do you play with those ideas for fun? Or do you get them out of your head or create barriers so that an affair could never happen?

2. It is all but guaranteed that a person who puts themself in high risk situations is going to eventually fall into having an affair. I could have the best intentions. I could be madly in love with my wife. But if I do not protect myself from bad situations, it's easy to form connections and bonds and attractions that grow beyond our control. That's why it's good that married couples set rules for themselves such as "no lunches alone with co-workers of the opposite sex". Lunch in itself is harmless; but it can be the garden for a deeper connection to be made.

---
One of the things you mentioned was that "everybody seems to be having affairs" so why fight it and get your heart broken if your spouse cheats.... Rather, just embrace it and "take care of it up front" so there is no sting of a hidden affair.

The world is the way it is today with divorce and affairs because people aren't valuing morals and committment that extends beyond "a happy, fun life". The life I speak of is not an easy one. It's not one of "temporary highs" and "the next best thing" or the easiest path. It's much more of a marathon. Where each of you grow and learn slowly. You build one little joy on top of another and over time you have a mountain of treasures stored up for yourselves. This is how sucessful marriages or built-- not by each of you doing whatever you please.

I see you've gotten lots of replys here. I hope, for your sake, that what you say isn't true.

Let me qualify what I'm going to say with telling you that we are ex-swingers.

When you're wife tells you that she only wants to sleep with this one man once...boy...if you believe that I seriously want to sell you some water front property! She doesn't want to have an open marriage?!?!?! Come on....you're opening up the door!

You and your wife have problems. You may be in love with her...but she's not in love with you. I would not, in a million years, give her your permission to sleep with another man.

My wife and I found this site and read Dr. Harleys books. We both realized that swinging was not and would not ever be good for our relationship and love for one another. We stopped at that point. There is practically no way that either of you could carry on a sexual relationship with another person and be fully and completely in love with one another. We're talking about romantic love here! She will develop, if she hasn't already, a lot of romantic love for that man.

I really wish you good luck here. If I can be of help, email me off of the list.

God bless you!

bNc_78

I totally understand why W is sad about H in the hot tub with the coworker out of town on a business trip, considering it before turning it down, and then not saying anything until this mess came up. Come on, who'd be happy to hear that, especially someone who had been cheated on before.

Dear Mr & Mrs Spank,

Isn't MB great? Look at all these people typing out their thoughts and effort to help you. And both of you here, looking your own thoughts and hearts. Sorry, I'm just moved.

Mrs Spank? What follows comes from being in part, you. I did this exact thing a couple of years ago. My questions are not attacking, I promise. I'm asking you for even more honesty--utmost.

By telling your H about your desire, did you feel intimate with him? Like sharing a problem? Do you feel like he shares that intimacy with you? How do you feel knowing that the kiss, the question for permission, that he felt rage, jealousy, anger, fear?

This caged feeling--middle-aged thingie maybe--does it have to do with your H's lack of intimacy? You're willing to share your wayward thoughts and he doesn't share his laughter, tears, fears or a thought from a hot tub? Do you fear his secrets? You married someone who cheated, both times. How do you feel about it? Any part of payback, wanting to be the one that has the power to harm, to have someone know how you felt when your first husband ripped out your guts?

You remember that, right? In all your honesty, do you want to do that to your beloved H? You do love him. I know you do. I know you want decades being with him. Do you want solid evidence (his saying "No, it would break me to pieces") that he loves you and won't abuse your love by cheating on you? How far will he go to keep you? How much disrespect of himself will you ask him for?

I wanted attention from my H. I wanted the attention of his thoughts and his heart. He has a fear of intimacy. Most men who have cheated do. I am the one who cheated in my marriage in this very fashion--upfront and honest, pushing for permission and overflowing with selfish demands. Couldn't figure out how that wasn't working for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Has Mr Spank been betrayed before? If he doesn't know that path, are you really willing to put him through it, knowing full well how destructive it is? Unerasable?

If I didn't know this journey so well, I wouldn't be here telling you. From mine to yours, human to human. I was in that WS fog. I wasn't thinking straight, yet I swear, it felt like life was suddenly crystal clear. I had power, choices and it was my darn life. I rewrote history and who I was and looked intensely at the negative until all that I cherished got lost.

I don't wish this for you. You're already here. You have the awesome, amazing choice of reading up and side-stepping ths terrorizing lesson that many of us didn't. Take advantage of it.

Mr. Spank? Get intimate. Use the counseling to find out your need to cheat on your first wife. Not the reasons you may think. Your fear of intimacy and Mrs Spank fear of abandonment are a harrowing mix. Please don't add others into it. You've got a life-time shot right now and I think you know it. Get a great counselor--not just a good one. Be as honest as your wife. Lay it out, from your heart, all the past secrets you've been keeping, and the withdrawal, and the disengaging and find where it feeds you--by starving her. You guys can have an incredible marriage.

Because you're already here.

LA

I arrived home tonight from being out of town for three days. I could tell my wife was sad or upset. When we went to bed, she told me she was sad... and tired from being up so late so many nights.. as I had been too.

I couldn't sleep and decided to go downstairs to play the piano. My way of releasing stress. Before that, I gave her an hour back rub and told her I forgave her for the kiss.

I'm not without fault. I've given her plenty of reasons to distrust me. Nothing concrete. But more of a string of unfortunate mistakes, misunderstandings and basic immaturity. She has told me she knows I've never cheated. That was comforting. As far as the emotional side, I need some work. I know I feel lots of emotion. I fail to express it. I must be a time bomb ready to explode. And yes, I need some council. She's going Friday alone and I plan on joining. I'm feeling very excited and anxious to get this going. It's our last best hope. And if we both meet halfway and do this thing seriously, I feel we're going to be ok. Nomatter what has happened. I'm going to forgive and forget this one time as she has overlooked some of my misgivings. Whatever happened, how it happened. Not my concern. The focus now is to reclaim the love that once flourished. She is my solemate and mother of of my children.

I'm going to extend the benefit of the doubt. Give-in to whatever is holding me back. Be more fun when we go out. Cry when I feel like it. Laugh as often as I find humor... Change for me. Change for her.

My emotions. My sharing them. I hope in some way, the notion of me coming here to share is one small way to illustrating were my emotions are. At least the serious side of them. Perhaps, I communicate better with words when I can watch them unfold. Just need to work on the verbal end of things.

Tomorrow, I'm lighting a fire. Opening some wine and hope to rediscover the miraculous discovery of my wife. Mrs. Spank, if you're reading this on Tuesday, rest-up. We're going to have a wonderfull night of self-discovery, worthy conversation and warmth. I love you. Let's make this work. Shut-out all outside influence. Make this happen. I'll meet you at the fireplace at 9:15. If you need me to mapquest directions, let me know :-)

Love Mr. Spank

Thank you all for your support through this.. whoever you are!

Mr. Spank,

It sounds good. I do hope it works out for you. I do believe you love your W and I don't believe her having this fling is ok with you. I think it will catch up with you in the end.

Mrs. Spank,

You talk of how honesty is so important. I challenge you to be honest with yourself. What is it you are really missing and what is it you really need? Can you be honest with yourself and find a long term solution to your problems rather than a quick fix that has the potential to be devastating to your marriage? Can you be honest with your H and let him know what it is you really need from him?

He had alot of good ideas about ways to relieve your "caged" feelings and those were productive, long term fixes to your problem.

It sounds like you are missing some of the excitment of being young and single. I also was an avid clubber but at 31 I started looking around and everyone else were kids. That's when I realized I didn't belong anymore. I miss it myself BUT there is more to life than JUST that lifestyle. This is not meant to be a slam at all but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if you are just starting to feel your age and are grasping to hang onto the last shred of your youth and party days.

That said, you may trade in the adrenaline rush you get from the pumping beat and the raw youthful feeling as you are freely moving on the dance floor BUT there is life beyond that. There are other ways to feel that rush. There are other things that aren't so exciting but offer the same basic filling of emotional and physical needs. You sound like a bright woman. Expand your mind.

You can't be feeling good about what's going on and if this is causing you stress and sadness then you may want to see it for what it is. A poor choice which you will pay for someday.

Wish you the best.

Symphony

Dear Spankies:
H&W, thanks for posting this morning. I've thought about some of the things that I said in my previous post, and I spoke out of anger, and probably a little harsh about the "keeping your legs closed". For that, I apologize...(UNLESS it got to you and made you think!!!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
H, I think your idea of the fireplace, wine, and time for the two of you is the best thing I've seen either of you say. THIS is where you start!!! You can't change what you have done in the past, either of you...but you CAN start today-BOTH of you.
H, you can start working on your feelings...I think W might like it even if you wrote them down at first-if that's all you can do right now, then go for it...she has some needs that aren't being met by you. But again, it's impossible for you to meet them if you don't know what they are...
Maybe you could print out the EN questionairres for your trist tonight? It would be a GREAT place for you to start...
W, I'm both sorry and glad you are sad. Sometimes that sadness can put our butts into action. I'm THRILLED that you have made a counseling appt. I DO give you kudos for that! Sometimes, it's at our lowest points when a profound decision will set the course of the rest of our lives... maybe you are there! And you will make the RIGHT decision to save your marriage.

To BOTH: TODAY is what matters now... Begin...
Get real with yourselves and each other. I want to see you here in a year posting to other couples about your success and how much in love you are after a very tremulous time in your lives!!! Pass it along. Keep us posted!
I'm moved when I think of two people I don't know sitting by a fire and renewing their commitment to each other and their family, beginning on a journey talking about their feelings and sharing what they need from each other and both promising to try...I'm hopeful that the thoughts and words of others around the world via this board can save a marriage. I'm grateful to know about this board and am anxious to hear how things go...
I don't think you have irreparable harm to your relationship, and I really am glad that you came here and really listened to what we have to say...
Won't you both let us know how things are going with you? and how your evening tonight goes...
I'll be thinking and wishing the best for you....

Blessings to you both!

I really wish you guys luck. I believe that it really boils down to how you guys will conquer love busters and how you will go about meeting one anothers needs.

POJA - never do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement. Simplistic but hard to put into practice. You have to start thinking with one another in mind. The POJA will bring on new things for you both to do that you mutually enjoy.

It's so easy to give in and continue to do things they way you do now. It will require hard work to undo those habits. Your goal is to build a romantic love where you both consider each other irresistable. It doesn't sound to me that Mrs. Spank liason has to be inevitible.

My W and I recently came out of swinging. Probably as close to the life style you are considering as you can get. I saw the couples and singles involved in swinging. I didnt' care for what I saw. Did I see lots of romantic love? I don't think so. I talked to some of the couples about how they got into swinging. By and large, in my opinion, they weren't meeting one anothers needs when they got involved.

Also, keep in mind that I saw people continue in swinging because most of the needs were being met in their marriages with the exception of affection, admiration, sexual fulfilment, admiration. Did they have their cake and eat it too? No...I don't think so because I never saw people madly in love with one another. Just a life style that allowed them to, again, have some of their needs met outside of their marriage.


It's good you are seeking marriage counseling. If you don't get anywhere with that person then seek another. Buy the books Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs and read them together. Discuss the things you feel are relevant as you read, fill out the questionairres, and formulate a plan.

I think you'll find yourself on the road to recovery. Again, it won't be easy. It hasn't been for my wife and I. But I think we are steadily making progress.

Good luck,

bNc_78

Mr. & Mrs. Spank,

Excellent decision both of you to come here. I just read your posts and the thread and I'm rooting for your marriage. For your monogomous, faithful, one-to-one marriage.

Someone above asked Mrs. Spank if she has told me her emotional needs. I'd have to say yes. Repeatedly. Some were black and white. Others I should have known. I've been a ripe-old-******. Asleep at the wheel. No wonder it's come down to this. I just hope it's not too late to try again to listen. I've got a lot of listening to do.

So, do you believe that your wife's request was, in fact, her wanting you to fight for her?

I'm recalling a story about a man I dated briefly. He was divorced with three kids. He believed that his marriage ended when he discovered his wife was having an online emotional affair. I believe, however, that their marriage broke down earlier, that he was not meeting her emotional needs, and that she reached out to a man on the internet who made her feel loved. When the husband discovered the EA, he insisted that his wife "get it out of her system". He bought his wife a plane ticket so she could go and meet her OM. The husband thought that, just maybe, the OM wouldn't measure up and that the W would come home ready to work on their marriage. Instead, the W came home pregnant. Its just a guess on my part that the W would have preferred to have her H fight for her. W moved many miles away to be with the OM, taking the three kids with her.

When I heard this story I was turned off. If he wouldn't fight for his wife and kids, what would make me think he'd fight for me? He wouldn't.

Chivalry can be a good thing.


Mrs. W8ing

Yes, I'd like to think so. She's been wanting change for some time. It's time.

I have close friends who did/are doing something on the same order as this but only with a little twist...The H asked the wife to sleep with someone else and come back and tell him about it. Somehow, someway he would get his rocks off from this so the W tells me. It eventually turned into them both sleeping with other people and telling details to one another about their conquests. NOW the W is still sleeping with others and rarely telling her husband about them because NOW it upsets him to hear about it while he isn't sleeping with anyone else at all anymore. And the W can't understand why their 12 year marriage is falling apart! UGH! Drives me insane...I have tried sooo hard to get her to come here and see what this is all about and hopefully mend their marriage but she keeps making excuses.

You are both playing with fire...I wish you well

Spankmix,

Just wanted to apologize for blasting you last week. Your question and then your apparent position on the advice you rec'd from others on the forum hit a nerve with me. I am against extra-marital activities completely and have been all my life. Affairs were the death of my parents' marriage, thus my happy childhood.

I wanted to take this time to sincerely apologize for lashing my hurt onto you in your time of need.

I do stand by my earlier statement to continue asking people here...they seem to know their stuff.

Again, sorry. Please forgive? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted to let you all know, that I am still reading your posts. I would like to thank 4 or 5 of you for sticking to the topic, listening to and believing the facts and for your thoughtful, supportive and non-judgmental advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

As Mrs Spank said, Thanks. We both have appointments for Friday to speak to a professional (separately)... Then together. It's hard to undo so many mistakes from the past.. Certainly. With some guidance, I believe we can overcome the past and look forward to the future. It will take some tackling of difficult subjects, understanding of what we don't understand now and most of all, willingness to meet halfway. Not out of the woods by any means but on the path...

Mr. Spank

The wedding is over. The honeymoon is over. She has her home. She even has her child. Perhaps she picked you because you are a dependable provider—and good father material. These needs are met. Now she wants a lover. And she has let you know that she has a live one on the hook. Will you give her permission to reel him in?

Mothers who feel 'caged in' shop for shoes not extramarital lovers. Women shop for lovers when they are trying to recapture the excitement and perhaps the romance of their pre-lactating selves.

Woe is the husband who does not know how to fill the void. Doomed is the husband who was never really much of an exciting lover to begin with.

Do not mistake her alleged honesty for real intimacy. It is a desperate cry for help. She is begging for the thrill and exhilaration, the ecstasy and adventure of a lover for a husband. You need to find a way to give her some in your marriage.

great post pieta!
boy, do i remember feeling caged in and longing for excitement. i wish someone had given my husband advice like yours.

Hi Mrs. SpankMix...

I commented earlier, so I wanted to follow up.

It's really a short term solution to a long term problem. It wont solve anything, really. You had sex with others before your H... been there, done that, right? Can you see yourself doing this every 5 years to get a fix? See, it really doesnt solve anything, it's just a feel-good band-aid.

As others have said, horrible pain and consequences are about guarenteed. I'm sure you'd both agree afterwards that is really wasnt worth it. An hour vs. a lifetime.

I'm not sure anyone has regretted being faithful. Most regret infidelity. Have you thought about the shoe being on the other foot? What if you (or Mr.S) fell in love with the OP? There's so much more going on here than a sexual fling. I guess that's my real point.

I hope you two find peace with your marriage - Dru

Pieta... that was near poetic.

Mrs. Spank

Have you told your husband what you need? How does he respond?


Mrs. W8ing

she doesn't need to now, thanks to pieta! lol

Quote...
As Mrs Spank said, Thanks. We both have appointments for Friday to speak to a professional (separately)... Then together. It's hard to undo so many mistakes from the past.. Certainly. With some guidance, I believe we can overcome the past and look forward to the future


Good for both of you...This is definitely a step in the right direction. My apology for accusing you of not listening....Down the road when things are resolved and you are back on track, you will feel so much better (both of you) that this affair was not followed through with....

Bill

While it seems everyone is busy persecuting Mr. Spankyman let us not forget one important fact, Mrs. Spanky owns her actions and what she did goes against building a marriage, regardless of circumstances. Clubbing 4 nights a week and making out with another dude is not the answer and shows character defects in itself. Bottom line is you both got issues, neither greater than the other, just different.

I do hope that y’all dedicate yourselves to each other with all you heart, mind, body, and soul.

I don't think either of came here to be persecuted and judged. Only a few posts were without insult and offered friendly and helpful advice. I have personal accountability, hence my choice to come to my husband with this. But you still don't know me and be assured, I don't lack in character.

USA Today article...
Stay honest with your partner. "Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs," says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. "Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations."

Hi Mrs SM,

I suspected your honesty was an effort to prevent this affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - Dru

Interesting read...

One of the most damaging effects of believing that most marriages are monogamous is that if an affair happens, it's seen strictly as a personal failure of you, your spouse, and your marriage. This belief (myth) is particularly damaging because it leads to personal blame, personal shame, wounded pride, and almost universal feelings of devastation. (Understanding the prevalence of affairs does not excuse those who have affairs; it just helps relieve the sense of shame and inadequacy felt by their mates.) Since they keep their experience hidden, they seldom get enough perspective to completely recover from these feelings, regardless of whether they stay married or get a divorce. Surviving this experience if it has happened (or avoiding it if it hasn't) is best accomplished by dealing with reality.

Awesome and I never implied otherwise just a friendly reminder to all those posting and yourself that your hubby does take responsibility along with you for letting the marriage to get to the place it got, however, the bar hopping and kissing the other guy is 100% on you.


Again, I never implied you lacked character, I did however state that you have a character flaw unless it is normal for you to make out with men other than your husband and get so carried away with things that you ask your hubby to have sex without another. Now if those things are typically within your character then you have no issues, however if they are not, then there are some things you need to work through, like why were you willing to compromise you standards. I'm not attacking you, we all have defects of character, unless we're dead.


I whole heartidly agree. Obviously how one shares is important. There's a huge difference between saying "He has a cute butt" and "Honey, may I have sex with him". And IMVHO that honesty is best yielded prior to acting out in any manner. Again, not dogging you just stating my opinion.

As I said, I wish the best for y'all.......

But you posted the quote about being honest to prevent affairs. It's not about being honest and doing it, anyway.

And no, many I've know were quite confident in characterizing the A as a weakness or flaw on the WS's part. Sure, it's a blow, and you re-evaluate how you may have contributed, but the blame usually ends up where it belongs.

But the one message stays clear: having an A does not fix or help a marriage. That's all. Please take care - Dru

And just to clarify things, I do not go to the clubs 4 nights a week. I went 4 times in that one week, for the first time in years.

So be honest, can you ever imagine the situation where your H HONESTLY feels good about your sleeping with someone else? Really?

Can you imagine a time in your relationship (maybe around the time the kids were born), when you would have HONESTLY been happy with your H sleeping with someone else? It's no different for him, it's hurtful to see our loved ones with someone else. You know this.

He's being honest, he honestly doesnt want this. If nothing else, please also respect his honesty.

Affairs also lead to divorce in many, many cases. And it not just because they werent honest, it's because one partner valued a faithful partner. If these are his values, how will this marriage survive? - Dru

Dear Spankies

As much as you may feel that you are stuggling now, let me tell you how lucky -- hate that word, but too lazy to think of another one right now -- that you are here together . If you read other threads you will see that its quite rare for both husband and wife to choose to follow Marriage Building principles. Granted, I don't know that you've both made that choice, that its been POJA'd between you, but I'm guessing that, because you're both still here, that you feel that it just might help. That's awesome! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let me tell you that, eventhough you are both here, the only one you can really work on is YOU. For me, that has been the toughest thing to do, to acknowledge that I actually did contribute to my ex-husband's multiple affairs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and that there are things I can change about myself in my new marriage that can make it even better. So as you read, let me suggest that, although you may talk about it together, you need to focus on how you will change. What will you do better?

Starting with the elimination of Love Busters is always a good first step. If you're still with us, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Its good to have you here. It really is. I'm cheering you on because we need another success story. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Hugs from

Mrs. W8ing

Mrs SpankMix,

I don't see many of those posts as an insult to you, but an expression of the consequences that may occur if you do as you have expressed to your H.

However, be that as it may I have a thought to offer you.

It is the fact that monogamy is NOT easy or perhaps not natural that makes monogamous marriages special and different from going steady with someone. It is this willingness to commit (and yes it is a major commitment, hence the necessity to make VOWS) that separates a marriage from a just a relationship.

I would like to offer for your consideration that when you have grown old and grey with your H, you will look back on the fact that you AND your H were monogamous with great pride. The fact you have slept with yet another man will never attain the level of an event you take pride in. You both have been married before, your H has admitted to affairs, I don't know your history, but adding another person to those you have slept with will NOT be a special thing.

What will be special is if you two build and maintain a marriage that endures, the supports each of you, and that you can look back on with pride, and being monogamous is something to take pride in BECAUSE it is not so natural.

I am sure you don't see it now, but I would second others advice to you and your H, to work on your marriage and improve it. There is ample time to get rid of the monogamy "myth" if you two decide that the marriage does NOT meet your needs. If you decide to go with this guy, no matter what you do, no matter what your H does, you will NEVER be in a monogamous marriage with him. You cannot turn back time, and there are no "do overs".

Please consider this and talk with your H about it.

God Bless,

JL

My Dearest B

I can make ONE very important guarantee. I will remain faithfull to you till the day I die. Let's not live in a life filled with Fear and Regret. You have my unconditional love and respect. I will NEVER hurt you in the way that your X did you. The way I did to my X. You have my trust and your freedom back. Starting today, act as you normally would. We'll continue our dialogue from last night/early this morning. Look forward to the future. Together, (to quote RENT) THERE"S ONLY US.

I love you

R

((MrSpank))

It truly sounds as if you have an attitude of open-mindedness, honesty, and willingness. That is awesome and will carry YOU far into recovery.

“””I've felt anger, betrayal, jealously, denial, excitement, sadness, etc. etc.”””

To feel those is perfectly normal and I do hope that through counseling you are able to deal with those in an appropriate and constructive manner.

”””I've booked her every evening moment as to give her an alternative to going out. But, what I've actually done is cage her even more. It only compounded the issue.”””

You are correct, you can’t control her. She has to choose to do the right thing which you truly have no control over. You can simply sweep your side of the street. Work on meeting her emotional needs and eliminate Love Busters, the choice is hers as to whether she’ll add or take from the marriage. I encourage you both to read the Policy of Undivided Attention and work towards spending time together. I would encourage you both further to do the Recreational Activities Survey, and find some healthy alternatives that you can do together. Mrs. Spank as you read through the info on this site your going to find in the Love Busters section, that Independent Behavior (such as bar hopping) is a Love Busters, Love Busters do harm, do no harm to your marriage.

“””I will trust her 100% to make the right decisions as it pertains to us, marriage and life.”””

Can you do that? I don’t think so. Trust like Love, has conditions applied to it when we are dealing with our mate. Thus, I encourage the Mrs. to earn that trust and it truly sounds like you are willing to afford it.

“””For the record, she is correct, she not out four nights a week every night. It was a special occasion where she finally had some breathing room.”””

Whether it was 4 nights in a row or in a week, is of little value. This is where you simply have to own your stuff and let her own hers. There is no reason to defend, for no one is attacking, we are all working to help you as others have helped us. I encourage you both to focus on yourselves and if your spouse has unacceptable behavior, then do not enable it by justifying it for them.

“””Just happened to get a little out of control on the last night.”””

Again, let her own her stuff. It didn’t ‘just happen’, it was a choice she made.

“””Do I agree with what she did and requested. No.”””

OK, so that’s a boundary, awesome stick with it.

“””But, I'll remain open to her needs as bad as it sounds and let her make that decision.”””

This confuses me. In the tons of marriage books I’ve read and literally thousands of people I’ve talked to, I’ve never ever seen nor heard that having sex with someone outside your marriage is a ‘valid’ need. If you take the time to read through this site you’ll see what Dr. Harley promotes as the ‘Needs’ of a marriage that are to be met within the marriage. It’s when these things are met outside the marriage that problems occur.

“””she's in a bad position in life now.”””

That’s understandable, I’ve been in bad positions in my life as well, however, it still does not release me from accountability or responsibility.

“””You have my unconditional love and respect.”””

Really! Again, I believe there is love without condition between a parent and child but that’s it. All other love has conditions upon it. That’s a fact of life. If one party does unloving behaviors then that love the other party has will diminish. If one party displays extraordinary loving behaviors then that love will grow.

Ms Spank,

As I mentioned earlier, I've had the opportunity to work with couples who have embraced polyamory, open marriage, swinging etc. There are some important differences in philosophy vs. opportunity. Folks who truly embrace this lifestyle go into their marriages honestly from the beginning (This is what I believe...what do you believe...how can we organize our life around these beliefs) They all agree that they don't want to enter into a sexually exclusive relationship. They marry someone who is of like mind and they set up a different kind of marriage contract than people who intend to have a monogamous marriage. While it is not a lifestyle I would embrace because it contains such great risk and instability (which I think is unconsionable for children)....it is from the onset honest and open and all parties agree about what to expect. It is their mutual philosophy and as adults they are quite obviously free to choose.

The other situation....is one of opportunity....it arises AFTER the vows of monogamy are taken....usually, as a result of an affair or strong attraction. Suddenly, now that one partner is attracted to someone else....their philosophy about marriage changes to accomodate their feelings and desires. Monogamy gets scrutinized and criticized for being inadequate....not because monogamy has changed...but because one partner now finds those vows inconvenient and restrictive. These changes are not the product of a philosophy that was mutually agreed upon....but the product of the biochemistry associated with attraction to someone else. Honesty becomes a tool to justify the change....the means to an end.

Timing....is essential in deciding how ethical as well as truly honest this situation is. If you believe that monogamy is not for you....then it's a contract you shouldn't have entered into. To expect honesty to be enough to circumvent the contract now is unethical. You're not using honesty to protect your marriage....but to manipulate it now that you've met someone attractive. If you've read any of the work of Helen Fisher about the biochemistry of early attration...you would understand how easy it is to use this kind of faulty logic when your own chemistry is fogging up your ability to see this situation clearly. However, given where you are....I also don't expect you to believe me because believe it or not....while your in the throes of early attraction, the dopamine, norephenephrine and low serotonin levels are going to make it impossible for you to understand how compromised your logic really is.

The first situation....where all parties agree on the type of marriage they are entering is somewhat more stable than the second situation where the rules change when they are no longer convenient. You may succeed in convincing your husband that by being honest, you've protected your marriage. He may even think he's capable of withstanding an open marriage....but I've seen the results of these kinds of agreements and they defy prediction and almost always end up in shambles and hearache. These are the kinds of things I've seen:

*Outside sex is supposed to be recreational and becomes emotional. No one predicts the attachment that sexual contact can produce and the spouse finds they can't "give up" this extra partner as they thought they would. Their emotional attachment to the new partner becomes increasingly stronger until it's the marriage that breaks....not the affair.

*One spouse thinks they can handle their partner being with someone else....logically they can....but when it happens they are emotionally devastated and humiliated. They thought they could....and turns out...they can't...but they don't find out until it's too late. They can't stop seeing the pictures. They start to get paranoid, possesive, jealous. Even though they said yes, they find themselves full of resentment and anger...and they overtly or covertly punish their partner.

*The partner who wanted the open marriage, thinks they will be okay when the other spouse also becomes sexually involved with someone else....and finds they can't. While they understand their own attraction to someone else, it hurts deeply when their spouse reciprocates and brings someone else into the marriage. When this happens, they almost always want to end the agreement....and sometimes, the other spouse who's now had a new opportunity is the one who doesn't want it to end. I have repeated seen situations where a spouse will coerce his partner into entering swinging or open marriage....and find that his reluctant partner becomes more interested in the lifestyle than he was. Efforts to shut things down meet resistance because this is heady stuff.

*Even if both or either partner is able to compartmentalize the sex and emotions....the other people involved are not able to. Extra sexual encounters turn into situations where the extra partners are attached and don't want to let go. They become emotionally involved and it can lead to stalking, suicide attempts, and other complete craziness.

These are just a few of the complications that arise....there are so much more.

It's interesting that you mentioned and quoted Peggy Vaughn. Not only have I been to her lectures, but I've met the lady in person. You pulled out one isolated quote: "Honesty is the trump card for preventing affairs," says Peggy Vaughan, who has studied affairs for more than two decades. Her Web site is dearpeggy.com. "Make a commitment to sharing your attractions and temptations."

But you didn't put it into context. Peggy Vaughn wrote "The Monogamny Myth" and she recognizes that it's extremely hard to remain faithful to each other when we live in a society that says it's supports monogamy when it really doesn't. Instead, it glorifies and facilitates affairs. She most certainly DOES recommend honesty about temptations and fantasies both before and after affairs, because before an affair....it can help couples PREVENT them from destroying their marriages....and after affairs...it is one of the building blocks for recovery. Peggy Vaughn is one of the most respected researchers in marriage advocacy today....and she stanchly supports monogamy and helps people to navigate the challenges that living in an unsupportive society creates.

Dealing with reality is absolutely better than dealing with lies. I would like to commend you again for being up front about all of this....but please....look at ALL of reality, not just those parts that support your stance. Recognize that right now you're probably not at your most logical because of what's happening internally. Look at the timing of your thoughts about monogamy. Look beyond the idealism of sexual exploration without limits....and the possible consequences that are impossible to predict or prevent. Look at the ethics of more than just honesty....and make an informed decision about whether sexual restraint has a place in marriage...and why. Look honestly at more than just the challenge of monogamy, but the risks that opening your marriage creates. Fidelity has many many layers that protect marriage....honesty is one of them....but only one of them.

Ms. Spank....I am not a judgemental person. I understand that the world is full of people who march to the beat of a different drummer. I respect people's right to choose. But I will tell you this....that I would be far less worried about your choice if the timing were not so suspect. This kind of change in philosophy timed around the attraction to someone else is honesty designed around convenience and affair biochemistry....not philosophy or belief. Wrapping it up NOW around a philosophy that facilitates sexual exploration is untimely and by my estimation...unethical.

If this is truly something you'd like to explore (polyamory, open marriage)....are you willing to separate it from this particular man???? If not....it's about the man and not the philosophy. If you truly think monogamy is too restrictive....then sit down with your husband and renegotiate your marriage....make new vows....and mutually agree to what the future will hold. But this man....remains off limits. If you can't do that....then you're not really interested in an open marriage....you're just interested in the man. And if you're really interested in the man....then honesty has no hope of protecting your marriage...and your marriage is at great risk and vulnerable to your desire for this particular man.

Good Luck

Lost Husband. Can you delete your post above. You commented on a post I edited. I felt after posting I didn't want to dwell or explain anymore but just offer a solution. I'd much rather just keep it as pure as it is now. Thanks.

S

Mr. Spank,

I want to hear it all. Please don't spend too much time figuring out what and how to say things. I certinaly have been rather blunt and painfully honest. I could stand to spend some time tailoring my words better.

I will see and write to you on MS.

All,

Thanks all. I have read the entire website. Read and internalized many of your advice. We have printed the questionaires. I have a near understanding of M.B. and all it's concepts.

As always there is a lot more to our lives, too much to write it all down here!

Nobody is a saint in this marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Spanks wife

If sainthood were a requirement for marriage....we'd all be outta luck!! Neither of you is being condemned or maligned....we really are only seeking to help and explore the challenges. Thanks for sharing your situation....hope that some of the replies were helpful and that you'll let us know how things work out in the future. Blessings to you both.

Sure I can, if you'd like me too, but that doesn't change the thoughts or feelings. Your feelings and thoughts are what they are, they are true and valid. Just like in this situation, there are things that are less than ideal but that is where we are at and that's what we have to work with. So rather than try to create a false world, let's tackle things head on. Either you or MrsSpanky can create an awesome environment but if in creating that you also damage yourself, then what's been created?

Through this process you are going to be mad, you are going to feel hurt, you are going to have frustration, a key for y'all is creating a safe environment where y'all can share this, receive support, and work through it. Otherwise, the marriage killer will move in, and in my humble opinion that killer is typically named "Resentments".

Another thing to remember and this goes for both of you. Every action has a reaction and there are natural consequences whether they be the feelings of another or whatever. While one shouldn’t express these in a disrespectful manner, it would be equally as damaging not to express them at all. By not making these known one would be enabling the other’s damaging behavior while at the same time likely building resentments.

This is one of CarolynsFingers' husband's early threads.

Wow - the board was very different in 2005. Posters spent quite some time discussing whether the open marriage they had was a good idea.

Yes this was an old post. And the thing I find most interesting is that my husband had been guilty of all the above but behind my back... and I was handing it back to him on a silver platter. He has always had some female friend on the side. I have never been able to tell how far it went. He always said he wouldn't know how it felt because it hadn't happened to him. So I posed that what if I did the same... And I had known a guy then that was aware of my husband... and his ways. And so I thought lets make a run and see what he thinks... And he came here. The most interesting thing is that I never defended myself.

He to this day tries to get me to agree to a threesome and then some. I have never and would not. I invited him to re read this recently.

And on to Sugar Cane... a forum moderator I would guess. Be careful people.

What I thought was really astonishing from reading the posts is that the other posters were acting like it was a VIRTUE to be "honest" about being bad. So many of the people were very morally confused apparently. Being "honest" about being bad does not make it a good thing.


Be careful? Can you explain?

Yep I think my honesty is stand up compared to the hundreds of people already in the middle of or recovering from an affair. As there sure are a crap load of posts on the Infidelity forum compared to the Builders 101 . I can say... I didn't have an affair.

How many spouses are on here right this minute trying to understand why their partner had an affair? 59 people are in that forum right now. If only their spouse had said... You have met none of my needs, And I am considering an affair. And it was prevented before it happened.

I am glad you didn't have an affair, however, honesty does not mitigate adultery or any other crime. I can be "honest" about robbing the bank, but it does not mitigate my crime or make bank robbery virtuous. There is nothing wrong with telling your spouse you are unhappy; but there is no excuse for an affair. Adultery is disgusting and vile.


There is no excuse for an affair. We know why 99% of people have affairs: they have poor boundaries around the opposite sex. The other 1% are the rare birds who are actually trolling for action. All the "need meeting" in the world will make no difference if a spouse has poor boundaries.

So the proposed adultery was a threat to get him in line?

As far as SugarCane pulling up this old thread, you realize that Dr Harley is a fan of being complete open and transparent, especially about infidelity? That applies to forum posting as well.

She did nothing wrong.

Did you mean this to be a dig on SugarCane or the moderators? Maybe I am misunderstanding your point, but it seemed like she was being helpful. And even if she were a moderator then isn't that better for you, knowing that she was trusted to be a moderator by Dr. H? Everyone here is supposed to give advice according to MB principles.

By the way, I've been here over 5 years but I'm not a moderator. I don't know SugarCane personally, but I've been impressed by her insight and your statement rubbed me the wrong way- kind of like biting the hand that feeds.

Adding to my previous post:

Reading again, and seeing that you are posting now under a different name now, you probably meant this statement to mean:

On to Sugar Cane, ( who makes such a good point that she is probably ) a forum moderator I would guess. Be careful people (and make sure that you understand and stick to Dr. Harley's principles. Otherwise you'll waste years with no progress. )

I know that I am speculating, but in speculating, trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

Only there was never infidelity... which is a lot more than most of the people on this site can say.

I wouldn't suggest taking cheap shots at people who have experienced infidelity. That is inappropriate and callous.

From CF's description of her husband's behavior, there has most certainly been infidelity. What else would you call having female friends on the side, or wanting to engage in threesomes?

I don't think I have ever seen anything like this on the MarriageBuilders forum before, a person who posts and returns years later and proceeds to:

~get frustrated that old thread/s were pulled up (something that posters have a right to no matter what)
~argue that old thread about her wanting an open marriage is somehow OK since it was a lie to get her serial cheating husband in line (you wasted posters' time)
~brag about her "truthfulness" since she didn't ACTUALLY cheat (huh?? You lied to your H and the forum), and then taking shots at others on the forum since they have cheated and you didn't.

Do you realize how insensitive comments regarding wanting an open marriage (it doesn't matter if you say you had an agenda to trick your husband - I would say that makes it worse) all the way to the proclamation that you haven't cheated somehow making you better than others (we have amazing FWS posters here!) on a marriage building forum is?

This forum is filled with people fighting for their marriages or in different stages of recovery for whatever reason and stick around to "pay it forward" and being tricked, manipulated or having digs thrown at them regarding infidelity is just plain mean. If you are familiar with Dr Harley's works, then you should know that just because a person has had an affair doesn't make them "bad" or you "better" because you haven't. We are ALL wired for affairs and need to take precautions to avoid one. All of us.

I'm in shock, over here.

There was no infidelity on my part. Which evidently is worthy of "inappropriate and callous" comments from scorned by others posters.

It's been 10 years since those posts. Do you all browbeat and berate yourselves and your spouses for things that happened over 10 years ago? How unfortunate for you. Where is that "virtue" on the MarriageBulders website?

The bickering will stop now.

CarolynsFingers, you are free to post on this forum to seek guidance in your marriage. However, you are not free to hide your past posts from the posters who are trying to help you. You are not free to berate posters for wanting to know about your past posts.

We value honesty here.

Any questions, shoot me an email.

Carolyn the advice I gave 11 years ago remains the same. We can help you get from where you are to the marriage you want. Are you in? Ready to get to work? What do you see as your first steps?