Marriage Builders
Posted By: holdingontoit Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 04:07 PM
Last month Mrs. Hold applied to join a local version of a weight loss competition modeled on the tv show The Biggest Loser. She was not selected, but they offered for her to join the "shadow" team which meets once a week rather than 3 times a week. When she went to sign up for the shadow team, they announced that one participant had dropped out and she could be on one of the "real" teams. So she signed up. For 8 weeks she will be competing to see which team can lose the most weight. After 11 years of weight gain and no exercise, I am proud that she has chosen to take this step to try to become more fit.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 04:09 PM
Wow, Hold, just wow. I knew that your changes were contagious!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:02 PM
Good for you Hold for leading the way to a life you want. As long as you're leading because you want it for yourself; and not in hopes she will follow.

Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:13 PM
That's awesome! I agree, she wouldn't have done this without all the work YOU have been doing. Way to go!
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:27 PM
That's really good news! My wife and I are fans of The Biggest Loser tv show, and to do a local version of it takes making a commitment. This is a big step for her.

One thing we like about the TV show is watching people reclaim their lives after years of unhappiness and passivity. I think this is big step for your wife in reclaiming her life and happiness, and even if she doesn't fully realize it yet. She is actually doing something now and not wallowing in passivity as she has been!

I agree with the others that she was most likely inspired by you and your efforts to do this.

I hope it works out really well for her... and by extension for your marriage!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:40 PM
JM:

No worries there. Mrs. Hold's complaints lately are along the lines that I ignore her, spend no time with her, etc. So these days I am not doing anything in the hope "she will follow".

We no longer fight about sex, as I have given up on initiating.

If I had to guess, I think she applied for the contest to get herself into shape for her next relationship. I am happy to accept the "benefits" in the interim.

She complained when she heard me saying "I love you" to my father on New Year's Day. She complained that I never say it to her anymore. I told her I stopped because I felt disrespected whenever I said it. She always reacted in a way that indicated she felt it was immature to be overly romantic. She then mocked the tone of voice I used when I said I love you to my Dad. I replied "see, you mock me for being vulnerable, so I stopped being vulnerable around you".

She said it had been 10 years since I was romantic toward her. I asked her "what about the time I made you the book of shared memories for Valentine's Day? Or the time I wrote I love you in lipstick on the bathroom mirror for our anniversary? Or the time I made you rose petal ice cream from scratch? All of those happened here in CT, which means that happened within the past 7 years. And in none of those cases did you give me any indication that you appreciated the romantic gestures, so I eventually stopped making the effort." That quieted her down.

And yes, at this point I would rather be right than be intimate.

The other thing we fought about lately was vacations. She kept pestering me to sign up for a vacation with the kids in April. Every day she looked up cruises and dude ranches and bugged me to sign up for one. Despite that they each cost thousands of dollars we don't have. I kept telling her that we have outstanding credit card debt and I don't feel comfortable incurring a big expense. Especially since it is S11's Bat Mitzvah next fall, so we will rack up more debt for that. Mrs. Hold was very disappointed. I suggested that if she wants vacations, she needs to pay for them herself. Or help me pay down our debts. She went ballistic. I told her she doesn't have to get a job but I am tired of being treated as a failure because I can't pay for fancy vacations.

Last weekend we went to Home Depot to get some hardware to install a shelf in S14's room. She walked up to the kitchen remodelling department and said "look, new cabinets are only $75 per month, we can afford that". I replied "that is just cabinets. Would you be happy if we only did that, or would you insist we also get new countertops and appliances?" She said of course if we get new cabinets we need to get new everything, which she estimates would cost $250 per month. I told her I can't afford any of it, and certainly not all of it. Needless to say, she was in a pissy mood the rest of the day. Needless to say, I spent much of the day playing PS3 and ignoring her.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:56 PM
Hey, hold, first of all, congrats to your wife for making a change. Whether or not she has an agenda behind it, it's a change for the better in terms of her health and well-being, and hopefully that will have a halo effect for your marriage.

I don't have a whole lot of weight to lose, but I'm not getting any younger and things are shifting around. LOL Plus, all the financial and relationship stress is taking its toll. So I've also embarked on a rigorous weight management and fitness program. I've been active my whole life and in fact, have some fitness training certification, so I can handle this on my own. But I tell you this because, although I am at the end of my rope re: my marriage, I am not doing this in preparation for my next relationship. I *am* doing it so that I can feel better about myself---and hopefully that will serve me well if things do complletely fall apart this year for us. Perhaps your wife has some of the same motivations. But as I said, the halo effect could be good for both of you.

Happy New Year!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 06:05 PM
I can tell that you're making progress for yourself.

I can also detect a lot of the resentment being release. Keep them pouring out because they are toxic if you keep them within.

I also see her complaints and constant testing of the boundaries you're enforcing for yourself. I've read the same patterns: vacations, home remodels, and more spending in general.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 06:25 PM
JM, I hope this is progress. I am certainly holding to my boundaries. She asked me to just tell her if we are not going on a vacation in April, so I told her "we are not going on a vacation in April. I wish I could afford to go. But I can't."

Most of the time I am pleasant and supportive toward Mrs. Hold. I congratulated her about making the team. I bragged to my secretary about her. I then told Mrs. Hold what my secretary said as a way of reflecting. I compliment Mrs. Hold in front of the kids. She is on the parent's board of S11's swim team and I always compliment Mrs. Hold on the work she does there.

Still, the kids see the truth. S14's suitcase did not arrive when the kids flew back from Florida last weekend (it came on the next flight). Before we were told the bag was on its way, I joked that this was a horrible fate since he would have to allow his mother to take him shopping for new clothes (he hates shopping). He replied "why don't you just drop me off at the mall with your credit card, you can probably trust me with the card at the mall more than you can trust Mom".

And when I told D11 how proud I was that Mom made the weight loss team, and that Mom was beautiful in her current perfectly proportioned shape today but would be healthier if she lost some weight, D11 looked at me like I was crazy. She said "yes she is beautiful, but Mom would look even better if she lost weight." Mrs. Hold said "beauty is on the inside". D11 looked at her like she was crazy and said "yes, that is where it starts, but it has to get through more or less layers to get out!"

It doesn't matter why Mrs. Hold decided to do this. It only matters that she did. Let's all hope she follows through. The kids and I have offered to be as supportive as we can be. We agreed to rid the home of all unhealthy foods. We agreed to operate independently in the morning and not rely on her to help us get ready for school when she has fitness classes. And we agreed to accompany her to the gym if she wants company.

I am truly pleased and proud she made this decision. I did not hesitate to give her the money to join. And I hope it works out well for her no matter how it works out for us as a couple.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:40 PM
"She then mocked the tone of voice I used when I said I love you to my Dad."


This says it all. Unbelievable. What an immature, selfish woman to react this way when you are voicing reverence for your father. YOUR FATHER! I am speechless, really.

Let her put her fat a$$ on the line in that program. I hope she finds some self worth. She is a truly loathesome woman.

I am truly glad you see her for what she is.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:44 PM
Also, your kids are awesome!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:53 PM
Well, I would not agree she is loathesome. She is not. She is just hurting and lashed out from her pain. But I will say it pushed a hot button for me when she chose him as the target of her jealousy.

My father had throat cancer late last year. He spent 2 weeks in the hospital and another 2 weeks in a hotel nearby recovering. He is only now getting his voice back. I spent the entire Thanksgiving weekend with him and my Mom at the hospital. Seeing him lying there waiting for the operation was torture. He is 79 and just got over cancer. We don't know how much longer he will be with us. So I want him to hear from me how much I love him while I do have him around. For her to see that as a weakness in me is unfortunate.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 11:07 PM
But my gosh, your father has been through hell with his cancer, and then she mocks you for telling your frail, old, father--a man who deserves all love and respect--that you love him?

She has an incredibly rough personality.



Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 11:10 PM
I would describe her as being extremely insecure.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 04:13 PM
The important thing is that she has decided to take this step. I hope it proves beneficial to Mrs. Hold and a good model to D11.

As for how she treats me, well, I don't think it is surprising she wishes I would treat her as I treated her before and as I still treat others. Not realistic, but not surprising either.
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 04:23 PM
Hold, in my opinion, it seems that Mrs. Hold is very reluctant to take charge of her own life... she seems to be very passive and let events overtake her.

For example, she wants you to cherish her as you used to, but she is unwilling to do anything to make you want to do so. I'm sure her weight has been bothering her, but she has thus far been unwilling to curb her eating habits and engage in any regular exercise to do anything about it. That's why this is such a big step for her, and I hope, too, that she is successful in this arena, because that success would motivate her to make changes in other areas of her life... it has the potential to both motivate her and to give her some confidence in her own ability to do anything.

If indeed she does succeed at this, I think it will have a beneficial effect on your marriage... but first things first, eh? Support her in this effort, here and now, let everything else sort itself out in due time, and you'll see what happens. That seems to me to be the approach you're taking, and I think it's the wise approach to this.

Anyway, good for her, and regardless of everything else between the two of you, I think you're right to be proud of her. smile
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 05:02 PM
Hold,

This is awesome..just be prepared for any built up resentments she might have come out during this time..especially if you begin to show her some form of affection again.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 06:48 PM
Should Mrs. Hold become hot again, this will up her power standing in the relationship. Also, she will receive a large amount of support and attention from this program. Things could get difficult for you, Hold, if her ego kicks in from it all.

I'm glad she is attempting to lose weight, and you love her enough to which a svelte Mrs. Hold would delight you. A small suggestion would be to not give up the huge amount of progress and self-worth you gained in this fight.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 06:52 PM
Why should HOTI's self-worth be tied in any way shape or form to what Mrs. HOTI does? I understand the warning you're giving him Easy. My question is more of a rhetorical one for HOTI.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 07:14 PM
I do not see how her losing weight harms me or affects my self-worth. I would feel better about myself is my wife were thinner.

It will not give her more power over my behavior. If she thinks she can hold her newfound attractiveness over my head as negotiating leverage, she will be disappointed. What is she going to say "if you don't take me on a vacation, I will go back to being fat"? Then she can go ahead and eat all the Oreos she wants. I have lived with an overweight wife for 12 years. I can live with one for another 6.

If she wants to date other guys, or leave me for another guy, that is her business. I am not going to make concessions to keep her around. To the extent that her losing weight gives her more options, good for her. Let her explain to the kids that we are getting divorced because she wants to be with someone else. In a wierd way, I view that as a desirable outcome. Maybe that would be the kick in the pants I need to get my life in gear.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I do not see how her losing weight harms me or affects my self-worth. I would feel better about myself is my wife were thinner.

Contradictory statement alert. You had it right the first time in that your value (self-worth) does not change based upon her weight. You would only feel better about yourself if she was thinner if you're relying on external validation to determine your value. This of course contradicts what you said in your first sentence. I know that you and I have the same book that talks about self-validation as a requirement of becoming a whole person. I strongly suggest you work on self-validation as it will ameliorate at lot of your wife's insecure behaviors.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:06 PM
That is not what I meant.

If/when Mrs. Hold loses her weight, becomes svelte, starts looking good and attractive again, her stock will go way, way up.
She will have guys hitting on her, she will have more opportunities that are available to a good looking woman as compared to a frumpy one.

She will become more enthralled with her own victory and less
so about the issues in the marriage.

Hold has always mentioned his concern in a divorce would be that
Mrs. Hold would lose weight, find some other rich guy, and have a wild time on vacations in the Bahamas. It is a rational thought.

"She treated me like crap, let herself go, and now some other guy is going to walk right in and get the wild, sexy person."

My only point is, this can be a factor in her losing massive amounts of weight.

Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:10 PM
Maybe so, but assuming that all happens, I hope HOTI recognizes that she only treated a symptom (and likely temporarily at that), and that she still hasn't cured the deeper issues of what made her put on the weight and withdraw into her own selfishness in the first place. If she does walk out of the marriage and into a new R with someone else still carrying all of her old baggage, God help that poor b****ard.

I hope HOTI does a victory dance.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Hold has always mentioned his concern in a divorce would be that Mrs. Hold would lose weight, find some other rich guy, and have a wild time on vacations in the Bahamas. It is a rational thought.

Not my concern, my prediction. Although perhaps in prior years it would have been more of a concern.

At this point, I am with Seabird. If she loses weight, finds another guy, and leaves me, I am happy for her. I only hope that they get married so I don't have to worry about alimony.

I am not concerned if other guys want her. Why should I begrudge her happiness if I am free to seek it for myself? And as long as she gets to be the "bad guy" with the kids, well, that cuts down on the pain of divorce considerably. Let's face it, "Dad stuck by you all those years while you were heavy and then as soon as you lost weight you dumped him" is not going to endear her to the kids. Plus, if she takes an eligible guy off the market, that improves my odds with the available women!
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:46 PM
Major transformations can be devastating to a relationship in
unexpected ways.

My ex was/is a very attractive blonde. Her looks were not an issue. It was her behavior--she treated me like dirt, like a human wallet, and after awhile rarely wanted sexual contact. I was going nuts, because I was very attracted to her. But all she cared about was "getting things done". We lived on a ten acre property in the San Dieog area with horses, etc, and a huge house. She never wanted to go to the beach, or go out and have fun, just work, work, work.

I was her workhorse and provider of all monetary means. We would work until dark on a Saturday night, and then she would fall into bed exhausted, always tired, always brooding that things aren't getting done. And on top of that, she volunteered
constantly, taking on other people's challenges and requiring my help and again, moneary support to do so. But there was nothing left for me, as far as she went.

After having enough of being her stooge, we separated and headed for divorce. And what diod she do? She moved to the beach!
Became a beach girl with a bunch of new friends and parties and fun! Something I had wanted for us from the very beginning.

She got pregnant by some guy off the cuff.

Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:50 PM
Hold, you are sounding healthy and good.
Glad to hear it, buddy!
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Major transformations can be devastating to a relationship in
unexpected ways.

My ex was/is a very attractive blonde. Her looks were not an issue. It was her behavior--she treated me like dirt, like a human wallet, and after awhile rarely wanted sexual contact. I was going nuts, because I was very attracted to her. But all she cared about was "getting things done". We lived on a ten acre property in the San Dieog area with horses, etc, and a huge house. She never wanted to go to the beach, or go out and have fun, just work, work, work.

I was her workhorse and provider of all monetary means. We would work until dark on a Saturday night, and then she would fall into bed exhausted, always tired, always brooding that things aren't getting done. And on top of that, she volunteered
constantly, taking on other people's challenges and requiring my help and again, moneary support to do so. But there was nothing left for me, as far as she went.

After having enough of being her stooge, we separated and headed for divorce. And what diod she do? She moved to the beach!
Became a beach girl with a bunch of new friends and parties and fun! Something I had wanted for us from the very beginning.

She got pregnant by some guy off the cuff.

Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.

Yours is a somewhat similar story to mine. It tend to reinforce my theory that the person that we are most attracted to is inevitably our worst choice and that we must work against our natural attractions to find someone who is actually good for us. I'll also add that another of my theories is that while opposites attract, they make lousy partners.

EasyE, the past is dead and cannot be made-up for. The debts of the past cannot be repaid. Your best revenge will be your personal success. This same advice applies to Hold.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by booka
EasyE, the past is dead and cannot be made-up for. The debts of the past cannot be repaid. Your best revenge will be your personal success. This same advice applies to Hold.

Better yet, let go of the grudge for there is no need for revenge.

Know that you made a choice to move on with your life, and the past can no longer hurt your future. Sure the memories can hurt, but you can choose not to recall them every time.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:28 PM
Oh, no no no...

my life is amazing, I have an awesome relationship now with
a very beautiful woman.

My sole point is, things can hurt when people you love change on a dime.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.

Do as I say and not as I do. Let it go. If she found happiness, that is the best you can hope for.

A few weeks ago I called the only guy I still keep in touch with from growing up. He lives a thousand miles away, and I had not heard from him in a while. He is divorced. As soon as the divorce was finalized, his ex married a wealthy doctor. They live it up in a big house, and take his kids on fancy vacations, etc.

He is not wealthy, but he lives in a modest apartment with his girlfriend, who I understand is retired military. They have plenty of sex. She cooks for him. He claims to like her very much.

But all he could do was focus on his ex. How little sex they had while they were married. How she slept with other guys as soon as they separated. How she remarried as soon as they divorced. How she went for a guy with big money.

I told him to let it go. Why should he care how she lives now? If the step-Dad can provide material items to his kids, good for the kids. At least the doc married the ex so my friend is off the hook for alimony.

And most of all, my friend has a dream woman of his own. Treats him well. Not stuck up and materialistic. Has plenty of sex with him. Isn't his life now a whole lot better than back when he was married to someone who belittled him and refused to have sex with him? I told him he is living my dream for what life would be like if I ever got divorced. I wanted to reach through the phone wires and slap him silly for not seeing the obvious. Or for not appreciating it.

As I said, wholeheatedly support Mrs. Hold in this endeavor. I hope she is successful. I hope she loses weight and adopts a healthy lifestyle. I hope she can continue to make better choices long after the competition ends. And if that ends up triggering our divorce, I hope I will wish her well.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:09 PM
I should have worded my posts better. I felt I had been taken advantage of. Like I had been duped. I don't wish her well, but I am ecstatically happy with my life now.

Back to the point, though. Change, even GOOD change, can wreak havoc in unexpected ways.

I used to advise my friends when we were all dating about the "25 year rule", in that if you date someone under 25 years of age, watch out! Because they change so quickly and don't know what they want, you will surely be in a pain if you fall in love with a girl under 25 years of age.

Anyway...carry on. It was a weak point.



Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Anyway...carry on. It was a weak point.

No, it was a valid point. Thank for the warning. It is exactly how my friend feels. And I think in the past the way I would have felt. I would have focused on the unfairness of her behavior.

Today I am more focused on my own role in this. And on my own personal growth. Which is not going well. And needs my effort. More than worrying about Mrs. Hold. Which accomplishes nothing.

I came here to share good news. I thank everyone for their warm wishes for Mrs. Hold.

I also thank everyone for their words of warning. I think they are valid predictors of a reasonably likely outcome.

And frankly I am proud of myself for my reaction. Which I think is a relatively mature and healthy one. I wish the best for Mrs. Hold. Even if that brings major changes to our lives.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:51 PM
Heheh... For most of my M, my XW bounced between being just a little overweight to being very overweight. She'd diet or exercise for a little while and take a few pounds off, but they'd eventually find her again. When we first got together, she didn't maintain much of an appearance. She could wear scrubs to work (she used to be a therapist) or even just really, really casual attire ( stretch pants and oversized shirts). Some weeks she'd wear the same thing two or three times.

Over the last couple of years she moved into hospital administration as the marketing director and started dressing nicer. Then about 6 months before she announced she was leaving me, she started hitting the gym hard and the weight began coming off fast. She also started dressing a bit more provocatively; lower necklines, tighter pants and skirts, and more makeup. She enjoyed the compliments from coworkers and she acknowledged that I was diligent in my compliments and encouragement.

Then she left me. I was bitter that she was taking so much effort in looking good after she left me. I loved her before she was thin. Before she paid attention to her appearance.

Then about 6 months ago I noticed that she has been looking really, really tired. Really heavy lines in her face, dark circles under her eyes, and the makeup is getting caked on. She's smells like she's bathing in perfume. We had a parent teacher conference a few weeks ago, and we were enclosed in the same small office. I was struggling to breathe.

She's been having some health related issues and I just figured that was part of it. The other day, my mom saw her for the first time since the summer I believe. I asked my mom, "I really don't mean to be tacky, but does she look old to you?".

Now please understand, my mom has no animosity toward her and they still communicate. Mom answered me kind of sheepishly, "I wasn't going to say anything, but the word I was thinking was 'harsh'. It's like the years have hit her in a sudden rush.

Then one of my best friends ran into her at their temple. He called me later and said the same thing. He described her as looking VERY middle aged.

I would be lying if I said I didn't get some satisfaction in that. I don't wish it on her, and I'd still be fine if she looked like Ms. America, but I do kind of relish the notion that she's might be disappointed by the reactions she going to get from other men now that she's single.

Not to mention that after two c-sections, and breast feeding two kids, the inside of the book isn't quite as promising as the cover, if you know what I mean.

Imagine a couple of sweatsocks filled with sand.

I know. I'm a terrible man. I sleep just fine at night thank you very much. smile
Posted By: star*fish Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:11 PM
Hold,

Congrats to msHold for taking a step, ANY step, to improve her appearance and confidence....goodness knows you've been punished long enough for her poor opinion of herself. I DO think your reaction was mature and healthy...no small feat given your usual reaction....so feel good about that too. I also think Easy shouldn't apologize for his warning....it IS, as you've acknowledged, a likely and reasonable expectation that she'll use whatever improvements she makes for a future relationship and not for you. People who lose mass quantities of weight, often go just a little bit crazy with the added attention and become very self absorbed. But I get the feeling, and it almost makes me smile, to think you might actually meet that expectation with a little bit of hope, since you wouldn't have to bear the burden/loss of standing with the kids, to end the marriage yourself and seek your own happiness. I think you see this as a way to "get off the hook"...and I can't really blame you for that. I'm not sure how healthy that is....but it sure is handy if you want "out" and are too scared to do it. grin
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:13 PM
Hold, you are showing some growth and I congratulate you. Keep working on yourself and someday you'll be the kind of person that you want to be. But, you will need to work on it every day and be like the shark, constantly moving forward. Okay, I'll let someone else let loose the the lawyer/shark comparisons!

D. Seabird, I am curious now as to why you were attracted to your XW at the beginning?

I have very little feelings of any kind left for my XW. In fact, I'm close to forgiveness. She is still extremely difficult to deal with, but I have some strategies for doing so now and have learned hot to deal with her abundant passive-aggressive tendencies. To this day I feel her continued diagnosis is BPD. Her family elevates dysfunction to a new level. Her backside looked very wide last year the last time I saw her. Her hair has always been thin and takes an extraordinary amount of work and product to produce an acceptable result. She will no doubt be bald before me. I do not miss the bathroom door covered in a thick layer of hairspray and dust. My house is nicer, cleaner, and far more organized.

Think about what I said earlier about my personal success being the best revenge. Just what kind of revenge is my personal success? My idea is the motivation to live better without her than I ever did with her. Our circles don't currently cross but if she heard somehow that I was doing very well in my life without her, would I pause to gloat? Maybe.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:25 PM
Dutch - Don't get me wrong. I still found her very pretty, but I always wanted her to take more care in her appearance. And until a few years ago, I had my own battles with weight. I still have to maintain a regular exercise regime, because anytime I stop, the pounds manage to find me right quick.

I also found her fun, and funny, and generally very, very "cool" and nonjudgmental. I fell in love with her because she once told me while in conversation (while we were still just dating), "I'm not going anywhere. If this ends, it's because you decided to end it."

For a guy who was accustomed to being dumped, this made me feel "safe".
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:37 PM
Dr. Seabird,

Thanks for sharing. One of the books that I have says that we are attracted to people who can fill our unfulfilled needs from childhood. Being slightly privy to yours (and in the midst of a huge thread-jack), I can readily understand why you were attracted to you. If you'd like some amplification of my thoughts, email me. But this does point out that in looking to have out childhood needs fulfilled by a partner, we neglect to consider their personal and psychological defects, as well as they unfulfilled childhood needs, which are often different from our own and often different from what we can provide.

I know now that the women I am innately attracted to are the worst for me and I try hard to address my attractions from a logical, rational, and reasonable to get the big picture.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:49 PM
Wow, you guys are making me feel emotionally mature for the first time ever!

I have 2 kids with Mrs. Hold. So in some ways we are spending the rest of our lives together no matter what happens (God forbid it turns out otherwise). I don't want her to be miserable the entire time. That is not good for my kids. And no fun for me.

Maybe I am being overly optimistic. Maybe I will be jealous of her new life. Maybe I will worry that my kids will like their rich step-dad more than they like me.

But for today, that is not the case. I think my kids love me and always will (especially if Mrs. Hold leaves me for another guy - I only hope he tries to buy his way into their good graces, more for my kids). I think my life will be easier if my ex-wife is happy.

And I think I have the same work to do on myself regardless of how she fares.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 10:09 PM
Maybe we should pare down the speculation--Mrs. Hold just started the program, and there's no telling what the outcome will be. And Hold isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I've got another point to make, though:

Hold, with your education and career, your ability to pull in a tidy income, your proven ability to go the distance with a woman (ie, marriage), you are to women what a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model is to men.

And funny enough, the "going the distance" part is crucial. Women are totally tuned in to what other women find desirable.
The fact that a woman saw fit to marry you proves you have been pre-tested, and thus desirable. Even if you get a divorce this will always be the case.

Add all of that to your trophy case!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 11:41 PM
Quote
And frankly I am proud of myself for my reaction. Which I think is a relatively mature and healthy one. I wish the best for Mrs. Hold. Even if that brings major changes to our lives.

And I am very very proud of you as well! hurray hurray

And also of Mrs. H. Good for her for taking the risk and publicly declaring the goal of losing weight; and major major kudos to you for being supportive! You, my friend, are a good and faithful husband.

And this too:

Quote
Wow, you guys are making me feel emotionally mature for the first time ever!

LOL!!! Yep, you are certainly doing good.

Seabird: inside of the book not as nice as the cover? sweatsocks filled with sand? :MrEEk: for shame! naughty grin
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/09/09 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
Seabird: inside of the book not as nice as the cover? sweatsocks filled with sand? :MrEEk: for shame! naughty grin

blush

I don't wish any ill on her but I do wonder if reality matches the expectations she had about being single again.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/09 12:31 PM
Mrs. Hold has gone to 2 group workouts. She is sore but pleased with the emotional support. She wears her team t-shirt whenever she works out and she says everyone at the community center is very supportive when they see her. She likes it.

As for us, she says she feels I don't love her or even care about her. I told her I do care but whenever I express my feelings I either get ignored or mocked for being to weak / vulnerable - so I stopped expressing my feelings to her. I told her I am not the strong silent type, and not capable of becoming that way, even if that is the kind of man she wants to be with. She agreed she wants that kind of man. But she also wants the overt displays of affection.

I told her she can't have it both ways. She can't ask for sweetness as a means of reassuring herself I am still committed to her but then disrespect me for not being stoic. Perhaps I can learn to express my emotions in a manner that is less off-putting to her. But that will require communication on her part along with more positive reinforcement and less disrespect. If she is going to demand that I read her mind as to what she wants and then insult me when I make a mistake, well, that is a game I am not interested in playing.

The precipitating event behind her complaint was the drive to the airport last Saturday. It was snowing and my car couldn't get out of our driveway. We tied a rope to her truck and pulled my car up the hill. After we disengaged the rope, we discovered that my car's passenger window would not close. Obviously I couldn't drive to the airport and park my car there for a week with the window open, so I asked her to drive me to the airport. She as reluctant but complied. On the way there she started crying. She couldn't believe that I was "making" her drive me to the airport (we called some car services and none could get me there in time). I told her to drive slowly and carefully on the way back and we discussed which route was likely to have the best plowing, least hills and twists, etc. We called the kids and told them what to do if Mom didn't get back before bedtime. We toyed with the idea of her getting a hotel room and driving back the next day but it was supposed to snow all night and turn colder so we thought the next day might be even worse (as it happend it was, the next day there was a 13 car pileup on the road she would have taken). So there didn't seem to be any way for me to catch my flight unless she drove me and then drove herself home that night.

When I called home from here she complained that I failed to protect her. I told her I see any other way to catch my flight, and with a lousy economy and my job in tenuous circumstances I didn't want to mess up this trip. She said her father would never have let her mother drive. I asked her if she wanted me to treat her more like her father treats her mother. She quickly said no, she doesn't like the way he treats her in other ways.

So I think we are back where we started. She is not happy, but not willing to leave. Same as me. Although her doing this weight loss thing is a hopeful sign that maybe one of us is willing to make changes.

Oh, and a divorced guy we know (parent of one of S14's friends) is also in the weight loss challenge, but on a rival team. He asked Mrs. Hold if she wanted to be his workout buddy. She asked me what I thought of that. I told her I would be going to the local firearms store when I got back. She seemed to like that reaction. She said she thinks it was innocent on his part and that he just doesn't know anyone on his own team. I said I am not interested in some divorced guy working out with my wife 3 times a week. She agreed there was a risk. She said "I have never spent that much time with a guy in my life where he did not end up hitting on me. It has never not happened." I told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her. Or at least, I am not interested in her testing the hypothesis.

No, I am not really thinking of getting a gun on his account. Guess I will have to monitor the participants' blog.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 08:06 AM
Cool! She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.

Except I just remembered that sometimes at the very beginning, won't WS's start telling their spouses about "that guy/girl at work" etc? Yes, monitoring is a good idea.

You paid her a huge compliment here:

Quote
told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.

I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?

I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by jayne241
She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.

Yes, it is nice that she told me. She wanted to get a rise out of me. I gave her what she wanted. See, I have learned something from MB.

Originally Posted by jayne241
You paid her a huge compliment here:

told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.

I used to give her these types of compliments all the time. Means nothing positive to her. She knows men want her. She doesn't take that as a compliment. She takes it as an indictment of men.

Originally Posted by jayne241
I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?

No. Negotiating for me to provide more affection and affirmation and conversation and recreational companionship would require her to offer behavior in return that she remains unwilling / unable to offer. Until she is ready to go there, it makes no difference if she intellectually understands why I am not providing what she wants.

Originally Posted by jayne241
I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.

No. The atmosphere in my head is slightly better. But that is based on my withdrawal, not on us getting along better.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
The important thing is that she has decided to take this step. I hope it proves beneficial to Mrs. Hold and a good model to D11.

As for how she treats me, well, I don't think it is surprising she wishes I would treat her as I treated her before and as I still treat others. Not realistic, but not surprising either.
True, but the wonderful thing is that, now that you have your boundaries, however you arrived at them, you are directly connecting your actions to HER actions. She is now seeing for the first time how HER choices are backfiring on her.

There is hope that it will be the impetus for her complete turnaround. Yes, it may be too late for you and you may never recover your love - but you might, and even if you don't, you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.

That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.

That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.

Interesting (but not surprising) that she looked favorably at you defining your boundaries materially/ monetarily.

I guess this is the biggest No Duh! understatement of the year, but it sounds like you discovered her Love Language and communicated effectively with it. Don't know if it's worth it to you anymore to try and frame all of your communications with her like that, but might it might feel nice to think that you've at least figured out a way to talk to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 04:12 PM
Mrs. Hold lost slightly over 2 pounds the first week. Hard to tell if she is happy or disappointed. Since she did not exercise before this, she has plenty of room for fitness improvement. She will probably be gaining muscle mass fairly quickly at first given the huge increase in exercise (she went every day last week, yesterday the team had a 2 hour workout, and she was back there today)). So even though she might not lose so much weight, she will lose size and reallocate from fat to muscle. Much healthier.

Good for her. I am proud of her. And she is right on pace to lose the total amount she hopes to lose over the 8 weeks. She isn't looking to win the contest. Just using the team spirit and accountability to facilitate a changed lifestyle. I hope it works for her.

Funny anecdote: the ladies on her team were discussing which brand of sports bra they use. Mrs. Hold announced what she was wearing, and apparently it was something that one of the women had never heard of. That woman walked up to Mrs. Hold, grabbed the front of her shirt, pulled it forward and took a look down her front. The woman then exclaimed "wow, you have big ones. I guess what you are wearing isn't relevant to me." I am still trying to figure out how she hadn't noticed my wife's chest before looking down her shirt. I am sure every heterosexual guy notices my wife's chest from about 3 blocks away!

Today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. I got her a cashmere scarf and a carry bag, both in her team's color. Tonight the kids and I will take her out to dinner. Not the big celebration (or gift) she wishes for. But more than appropriate for the circumstances.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:23 PM
Did you get my reply from last week? Do you still have my direct email address?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:27 PM
Yes, thank you. Was out of the country. Just got back. Will respond privately.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:43 PM
Good going the "Jabba" is getting less weighty. Perhaps it will change her other bad attitudes. We can only hope it makes a slight change for the better in all your lives.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/09 07:41 PM
Mrs. Hold was pleased with her birthday festivities. She was surprised I made the effort. She is the mother of my children. She deserves recognition on their account. D11 was happy to see I got Mrs. Hold flowers. That makes it worth the cost.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/09 08:26 PM
Hey, and not bad, two pounds is a significant start with her program.

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when she loses
a lot more.

Even twenty pounds will make a heck of a difference.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/21/09 12:18 AM
Weight loss, exercise, and improved eating habits are all welcome. So is a wife who is happier inside her own skin.

As for me, I got a nice ego boost the past few weeks flying back from Geneva. Both in December and January I was fortunate enough to sit next to an attractive middle aged female on the flight back. In December, she was a UK citizen visiting her daughter in NY who suddenly took ill. We chatted a little and at the end she thanked me for helping distract her from her daughter's condition. Last week, the woman sitting next to me had a bad cold. She kept apologizing for sneezing and coughing so we got to talking. At the end of the flight she said I was the most entertaining flight companion she had ever sat next to. No, I did not ask for names or contact information for either woman. But it was nice to be treated as an interesting person.

And no, I did not only talk to the women next to me. On the flight to Geneva in November, I sat next to a guy who works as an economist. We discussed his work over breakfast. I asked for his card, and e-mailed him after we got back to the US to ask for a copy of the report he was working on. So I was just as chatty to the males as the females. The only time I didn't chat to my "neighbor" was the flight where I sat next to a Swiss couple who couldn't be bothered to talk to an American too unsophisticated to speak French.

And as for being "territorial", on New Year's Eve we went to a party thrown by a girlfriend of Mrs. Hold. The friend is Swiss, and she wanted me to pick up a few minor items while I was there. I sent a message to her facebook page asking for the spelling of the name of what she wanted. And then when I got back, I sent her a message that the items were in CT, but she would need to talk to my wife about delivery. When I told Mrs. Hold, she got huffy and wanted to know why I was sending messages to her friend (who is married to a dentist who adores her and treats her well and earns alot more than I do so Mrs. Hold has nothing to worry about even if I had any interest in her friend - which I don't). Anyway, I guess possessiveness runs both ways.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 12:54 AM
Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.) No pageantry, or extravagant courting tactics, or profound protocols based on addressing the opposite sex. It takes the edge off, and makes conversation much
easier. Save the extravagance for the next steps, when there is a mutual interest.

When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.

Instead, I would do as I would with anyone: "Let's grab a beer later on."

Keeping it light and interesting works well in generating interest.

Anyway, the woman on the plane was actually saying that she found you attractive and she would date you in favorable circumstances.
Good job, Hold! A couple of years ago you were fretting that nobody would date you if you were single. You've come a long, long way.





Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 03:56 AM
Quote
Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.)

Me too. But I find that here, especially, if you aren't careful ppl will misunderstand if you mention talking to a member of the opposite sex, even if it's just talking to them same as talking to anybody, not flirting. The fact that you mention it might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify... Unless I'm projecting! (Sorry for speaking for you, Hold!)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
The fact that you mention talking to the opposite sex might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify...

Exactly. I didn't want it to seem like I was only chatting up the females. On one of the flights I was sitting next to an attractive younger woman who wore a tiny top with most of her chest hanging out. I didn't say a single word to her except once I asked to get out to the aisle.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 11:26 PM
Quote
When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.

I think the cringe-worthy part of statement is the "with me" bit. However I also have to admit that part of me misses the old-fashioned courtesies in being asked out. My husband when asking for our first date said "Would you like to go to dinner next Friday?"

I see both Hold and his wife changing dramatically. It is a case of one person changing, and this causing further changes to the relationship. Good work!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 05:04 PM
Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.

That's the best thing I've ever seen you write. smile
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.

I think it's good that you are doing these things for yourself, to be the person you wish to be. And not doing them to try to get something from her in return. That is a step in the right direction for you.

However, nothing says you cannot enjoy the fact that she notices and appreciates what you're doing. In a way, it is like she is noticing and appreciating you being you... Perhaps she is starting to see the you that you are trying to become.

Does that make any sense?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 07:32 PM
CC:
In theory I could do as you say. In practice, for me, it would not be prudent. Even if it is an accurate reflection of the "new me", appreciating her view is too close to caring how she views me. To hard for me to appreciate her Admiration without craving more. Better not to "taste" her Admiration than to develop a taste for it.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:21 PM
hold


Quote
To hard for me to appreciate her Admiration without craving more. Better not to "taste" her Admiration than to develop a taste for it.

You have certainly come a long way, and that is good to see..

However, this comment shows you still have some growing to do, it's not about craving her admiration, but learning to appreciate her comments for what they are..compliments.

Is Mrs Hold drinking a lot of water? if not, she needs to drink more, it will help keep her hunger pangs down some and help her lose any water weight..a friend of mine did that recently and lost like 13 lbs in a week.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by ThornedRose
However, this comment shows you still have some growing to do, it's not about craving her admiration, but learning to appreciate her comments for what they are..compliments.

I know. I have plenty of growing to do. A mature healthy integrated me could appreciate the compliments from her without yearning for more. I am not there yet.

I am getting better at accepting compliments from others. Not yet ready to allow myself to be open to compliments from Mrs. Hold. Too much resentment left. If I let myself "hear" her compliments, my reaction is to think nasty thoughts about what she should be doing instead if she really wants to show her appreciation. From her, verbal compliments feel like scraps and crumbs. I am not interested in scraps and crumbs. I know those thoughts are within me and not part of the content she is transmitting. But they are within me. And I would rather ignore her compliments than deal with the fallout within me.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:48 PM
When I was in my separation, I was in a stage of anger for a long, long time. Absolute hatred unlike I'd ever felt for anyone before. And it kept piling up, one thing after another. It felt like the XW was purposely finding things to make me angry about. Some things I'm sure she was. Some things it was just me.

My mom and my sisters kept telling me, "You really need to get past that." It bothered them a great deal seeing me angry. Yet I knew it for what it was; a stage. I knew I'd get through it. But in order to do that, I had to literally get through it. Like a tunnel.

HOTI - I think you're doing a great job. As long as you keep moving forward like this, you'll get to where you need to be.

I think that ignoring her comments and keeping your walls up makes you feel safe. She has a long way to go before those walls ever come down.

Don't feel rushed. Process it all at your own pace. Just don't quit. Think of it like a long-distance run.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:57 PM
hold,

Quote
I know. I have plenty of growing to do. A mature healthy integrated me could appreciate the compliments from her without yearning for more. I am not there yet.

I am getting better at accepting compliments from others. Not yet ready to allow myself to be open to compliments from Mrs. Hold. Too much resentment left. If I let myself "hear" her compliments, my reaction is to think nasty thoughts about what she should be doing instead if she really wants to show her appreciation. From her, verbal compliments feel like scraps and crumbs. I am not interested in scraps and crumbs. I know those thoughts are within me and not part of the content she is transmitting. But they are within me. And I would rather ignore her compliments than deal with the fallout within me.

It's okay your not there yet, but don't be afraid to face those demons within yourself..even IF she doesn't change..it will help you in long run.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:13 PM
Thanks for the support. I am working on accepting compliments. Didn't you notice how I related the comment by my plane companion. Not the negative undercutting reaction I had in the past.

So I am getting better at accepting compliments, just not those from Mrs. Hold. Too much other stuff mixed in with hers. Opening myself to her makes it harder to accept those from others. It is like all compliments are trainted by association with hers. Whereas the others can come in and feel positive, as long as I compartmentalize and wall off the compliments from Mrs. Hold.

Not healthy. But necessary. For now. Maybe some day I will be able to accept her compliments without the negative reaction. Maybe that day will even come before we get divorced. But in the meantime I am not going to jeopardize my progress on differentiation by backsliding to where I care what she says about me.

Remember, if I allow the good comments in, then the bad ones can hurt me. NOT ready to permit that. Not by a long shot.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:28 PM
Hold,

I wonder if you might be over-analytical about the compliments. Instead of predicting/anticipating/assigning motives to every compliment, why not experiment and take them at face value with no expectation of further reward. A compliment does not always lead to sex. You might practice returning a compliment. What would happen if you took the day-to-day stuff on a lighter note? This precludes relinquishing control over the finances.

On a slightly different note, I sometimes think my marriage ended because the XW reached some kind of resentment threshold. She once told me she had typed them up to give to her quack-of-an-IC and that they numbered in the hundreds and spanned all 25-years of our relationship. How would one overcome that? I view the formation of a resentment as an initial communication failure. You fail to tell someone how you feel when it occurs and instead bank-up your anger for later when it's impossible from an irrational standpoint to communicate them satisfactorily. You give up you power to her by harboring your resentments. Resentments are like you taking poison in an effort to kill the other person. I don't understand building resentments, I'm simply not the kind of person who does so. I don't deny their existence because I know that my experience will differ from others. You will need to get beyond the resentments to work on you. I'm thinking you need to sit around a campfire at night in a loincloth with other similarly clothed men banging on drums and screaming into the night to purge your pain. You pain goes back to your childhood and has been with you all of your life. It's time to start unloading.

With that being said, it had better be a roaring bonfire this time of year! Try to have yourself a good weekend!

Dutch
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by booka
I'm thinking you need to sit around a campfire at night in a loincloth with other similarly clothed men banging on drums and screaming into the night to purge your pain.

You keep your sick and twisted fantasies out of this, Dutch.

stickout

See HOTI, we tease because we care. grin
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:47 PM
Dutch:

I understand I need to let go of the resentment. Can't seem to do so. Obviously, it hits much less hard as regards everything other than Mrs. Hold. So I am basically walling myself off from Mrs. Hold to wall off the resentment. Helps me deal with everyone else without being a seething cauldron of anger, frustration, etc. Won't help my marriage, but I have already written that off. Does help in other areas of my life. Maybe when I get those into better shape I will feel I can afford to go back and revisit how I deal with the resentment. I understand at this point there is probably nothing that Mrs. Hold can do to overcome my resentment. I am not asking her to even try.

I understand that what you are suggesting would be a healthier way to live. I can't do it. Maybe I need to learn biofeedback or something. But right now the chemical reactions inside my body and brain are overwhelming when I deal with Mrs. Hold. I cannot remain calm and lighthearted in the face of them. So I have to avoid the triggers. Which mostly means avoiding interaction with her. Or limiting it to small doses. Preferably with the kids involved.

Did I mention that when the kids were in Florida and we went into NYC and crashed at my sister's apartment, we slept in different rooms? Once we got inside the apartment, she went into the bedroom and I stayed in the living room. We watched tv and fell asleep apart. I could handle the time together out in public. But I could not handle being alone with her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:48 PM
Seabird:

I know you guys care. And I appreciate it.

And I don't think Dutch's fantasy is sick or twisted. I would love to go to one of those guy retreats and paint my face and wear a loincloth and bang drums and shout. I have looked into them before. Maybe this summer.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:52 PM
Darn, I forgot the face paint. Seabird, what was that men's organization that does those crazy all-weekend sessions of running through the woods naked? We had discussed them maybe last summer.

I feel it's hard for a man to act like a man in these confusing times. I have vowed to act more like a man instead of an interested observer.

Dutch
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:07 PM
Hold,

One important point to review. Mrs. Hold cannot really help you with your resentments. You own them and you constructed them. They are just like your feelings, you generate and regulate them. You have to work to dismiss them all by your lonesome. The past is dead and cannot be made-up for. It is totally unreasonable to expect someone to make-up for their past transgressions. Forget the past and don't expect to recover anything form it. We're talking about making the rest of your life something that you'll actually enjoy. That's all you have left, the rest of you life. The past is dead and cannot, repeat cannot be fixed. Eliminate any expectations from the past. Work exclusively with what you have now.

I don't care if you sleep is separate rooms or not. Forget about what that means and work on yourself.

Dutch
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:18 PM
Awe guys, you're ruining my attempts to bust your chops! HOTI - I was teasing Dutch about having homoerotic fantasies about you in a loincloth in the woods...

It's funnier if you don't have to explain it. Describing it out here in the open just sounds disturbing. Ew...

I did email HOTI about a group like that, but I don't think they do the loincloth and drum thing. It's called The Mankind Project. I have a neighbor whom I like very well recommend it to me last year before my divorce was final. I ultimately decided that I didn't need it, but from what he described, I thought it might do him some good. I also work with a woman who did The Woman Within which is affiliated with TMP, and she spoke highly of it.

Caveat: My own research revealed that some people consider these groups cults. I have no idea what they entail or what goes on during their lost weekends. I was just passing along a couple of testimonials. Take all of that for what it's worth.

Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
So I am getting better at accepting compliments, just not those from Mrs. Hold.

That is perfectly understandable. Compliments from strangers are without any emotional baggage... because you have no relationship with them. Compliments from your wife have all the baggage in the world, because - however twisted your relationship with your wife is - it is one of the closest relationship you have with anyone.

So, the stakes are higher accepting her compliments. And if you're not good at accepting compliments at all... well, accepting them from the ladies on the airplanes is a step in the right direction.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by booka
Mrs. Hold cannot really help you with your resentments. Forget about what that means and work on yourself.

I am. It is just alot easier if I wall off the Mrs. Hold part. That will be the hardest part of the resentment to let go. So I am going to tackle it last. Not asking her to help me let go (my prior strategy which we all know is futile). Not even asking her to stay out of my way. Not asking her for anything.

This morning I felt a lesion on my privates. She took a look at it (she has seen many more guy privates than I have, and she knows more about the STD I feared I caught from her). She was concerned and told me to see the doctor. It was entirely clinical. She touched me, and emotionally I pretty much felt nothing. To me, that felt like progress.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/26/09 09:29 PM
Another example of how perspective is everything.

Yesterday was the Week 2 weigh in for Mrs. Hold's contest. She lost 1.8 pounds, for a total of 4.2. Tied for lowest total with another woman she knows fairly well. They are both depressed that they go to the gym every day, watch what they eat, and "only" lost 4 pounds in 2 weeks. They are most depressed that other people lost more.

I told them they are doing great. That they shouldn't compare themselves to other people. Everyone has different body chemistry. They should be happy they lost weight. Imagine how depressing it would be to diet and exercise and gain weight! I am proud of Mrs. Hold and her friend. But they are not proud of themselves. I see them as admirable and successful. They feel like failures.

Of course, this hit me hard given my Eeyore tendencies. Not so hard that I am considering being less of an Eeyore. But enough that I feel bad about being such an Eeyore.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:15 PM
Yesterday was week 3 weigh in. Mrs. Hold lost 1.8 pounds, for 6 pounds total. I congratulated her profusely. So did D and S.

Mrs. Hold is disappointed, because she lost the least (both absolutely and by % of body weight) of anyone on her team. As far as I can tell, she is not eating too much or bad food choices. And she exercises hard every day. So it seems to be a body chemistry thing. She has always been borderline low thyroid. I told her to go to the doctor, bring the list of weight loss contestants and say "I may be only borderline low for the 'average person', but I am clearly low for me - give me something." Thoughts?
Posted By: SeekingWife Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Yesterday was week 3 weigh in. Mrs. Hold lost 1.8 pounds, for 6 pounds total. I congratulated her profusely. So did D and S.

Mrs. Hold is disappointed, because she lost the least (both absolutely and by % of body weight) of anyone on her team. As far as I can tell, she is not eating too much or bad food choices. And she exercises hard every day. So it seems to be a body chemistry thing. She has always been borderline low thyroid. I told her to go to the doctor, bring the list of weight loss contestants and say "I may be only borderline low for the 'average person', but I am clearly low for me - give me something." Thoughts?

How much weight does she need to lose? If she is working out (even minimally) every day, and cutting back on her calories, I am surprised she is not losing more--especially if she has a lot to lose total. I would definitely see the doctor.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:49 PM
Me, too. I had thryoid problems as a child, was up to 130 pounds as 5 ft tall, and I wore a sweater all the time. That's how it got found out, cos my gym teacher called my mom and said I was wearing a sweater during gym class! So I took thryoid medicine for a year and it all went away.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by SeekingWife
How much weight does she need to lose?

She won't tell me exactly. But she started at least 60 pounds over the lowest weight she attained after the birth of S14. So at least that much.

Quote
If she is working out (even minimally) every day, and cutting back on her calories, I am surprised she is not losing more--especially if she has a lot to lose total. I would definitely see the doctor.

Yes, she is both working out 1 or more hours per day and cutting back on calories. She has only lost 6 pounds and no one else on her team has lost less than 10 pounds. Several of the other paricipants have lost as much in 1 week than she has lost in 3.
Posted By: hanora Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:41 PM
Actually 2 lbs per week sounds pretty good to me. And it sounds like a weight loss schedule that is more likely to be maintained and retained than a more rapid one. I think that bouncing up and down on weight is worse than a slow change. That weight wasn't gained in a few weeks and to be successful in the permanent loss of it, it shouldn't go in a few weeks. As a side effect she is less likely to suffer sagging skin if the loss is more gradual.

The thyroid thing might be worth checking into though. It can be sort of a subtle problem. I'm thinking about your daughter too. I wish we had caught it earlier with one of our sons.
Posted By: SeekingWife Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by hanora
Actually 2 lbs per week sounds pretty good to me. And it sounds like a weight loss schedule that is more likely to be maintained and retained than a more rapid one. I think that bouncing up and down on weight is worse than a slow change. That weight wasn't gained in a few weeks and to be successful in the permanent loss of it, it shouldn't go in a few weeks. As a side effect she is less likely to suffer sagging skin if the loss is more gradual.

The thyroid thing might be worth checking into though. It can be sort of a subtle problem. I'm thinking about your daughter too. I wish we had caught it earlier with one of our sons.

I agree that slow weight loss is better in the long run. But usually, when a person has a lot to lose, the first 10-15 pounds comes off quickly. However, I guess everyone is different.

Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 03:03 PM
Everything I've ever read has said that you shouldn't try to lose more than 2 lb per week for health reasons. I'm surprised they're pushing for more than that. Also, a lot of people lose a lot at first because of water weight and such things, so it's not an accurate measure of success, those first 2 or 3 weeks. Two months would be a better measure.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:21 PM
I agree that slow and gradual weight loss is best. I told her that when I congratulated her on losing weight 3 weeks in a row.

However, she is very disappointed and I fear that she may stop following the program if she always comes in "last". I'm not sure her doctor will give her thyroid meds, but the hope that the doctor may do so helps keep Mrs. Hold motivated to continue the exercising. She is meeting a friend at the gym today, so that is a good sign.

There is also the issue of what happens when this program ends on March 1. We hope Mrs. Hold will continue to exercise regularly, albeit not at the same pace as during the contest. If she "only" loses 10-12 pounds during the 8 weeks, she may feel she is so far from her goal and has made such little progress despite enormous effort that exercising isn't worth the effort. Whereas if she loses a little more during the contest she may feel more motivated to continue.

We'll see. Thanks for the response. Will keep you posted.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:25 PM
Maybe you can pick up the slack by coming up with some activities the family can do together. Would be good for the kids to do such things, too.
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:29 PM
I agree that if she doesn't feel she has lost "enough" weight, than she will risk being discouraged enough to stop exercising completely. It is easy to drop back into old habits if you don't see any (or "enough") visible progress.

Maybe the doctor can give her a pep talk, even if he doesn't give her the thyroid meds?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:38 PM
Hold, the first time I called Steve, when I explained the EN that I wasn't meeting was AS, for part of the session, he gave me a weight loss explanation that has carried me through the ups and downs. It was the switch, where now I BELIEVE that I can. Hold, it was great to hear how many people do this every day, and keep it off for good. I used to get discouraged and forget that part. I lost 20 pounds, and while I've plateaued a little, I'm still exercising, still moderating my eating, and feeling really good about it instead of discouraged.

I used to GAIN weight every year, and I feel so free knowing that if nothing else, I don't ever have to go through that again. The lousy feeling of clothes getting tight, and even worse, having to put the clothes in the back of the closet to make room for newer ones. I was so happy to give away my "heavy clothes," because I know I will never need them again. And I look forward to giving away the next set of clothes for good, too. I will be free to do that because I won't ever need them again, either. I encourage you to ask her to set up a call with him. Very motivational.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 05:09 PM
Just wanted to caution that thyroid medications may not help her lose weight. At least, it wasn't the case with me or my sister. What it could do is make her feel less sluggish which could then make her feel more willing to be active,possibly.

Important to know that there is a laundry list of possible issues stemming from a sluggish thyroid, weight gain being only one of them. If she is depressed or approaching her 40's or in her 40's - she has more scenarios that would make weight loss difficult.

In my particular case, the only thing that seems to work for me is to cut out sugar, which can be difficult to stick with.

I think she's doing great, though, and if the doctor doesn't want to put her on thyroid medication, maybe wellbutrin would help her stay focused and less depressed. Sluggish thyroid has often been mistaken for depression and vice versa...

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
If she is depressed or approaching her 40's or in her 40's - she has more scenarios that would make weight loss difficult.

She is depressed, in her 40s, and married to a guy who is also depressed. So yes, there are many complicating factors and obstacles here.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 03:51 PM
It seems I have caught Mrs. Hold's STD. I cannot believe I agreed to have unprotected sex with her. So now, not only have I allowed her to poison the time we have been married, I have allowed her to poison whatever time we may have apart.

What she fears has come to pass. I never judged her for it before. Now I do. Ironic, isn't it. When I was clean, I did not begrudge her. Now that I am not, I feel differently.

The good news is that we no longer have a SF problem. She has succeeded in getting me to stop wanting her.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:29 PM
Wait, what???

I'm sorry HOTI, there's so much from your personal story that I think I've missed some things. What is the story about this STD?

Is it something she contracted years before you guys met? Something kept secret? How did you manage not to contract it when you conceived your children?

I don't understand.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:35 PM
She had it before we met. The only good thing about having sex so rarely was that we managed to dodge that bullet for all these years. Most of the time I insisted on protection - obviously not when we were trying to conceive but my "luck" held and we conceived on the first try all times. Lately we went without protection because she said she preferred it that way. Now I am disgusted with myself for giving in to her request.

So I guess we will have something between us besides the kids forever no matter what.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:41 PM
Sorry man. frown I knew she had a history of abuse and resulting sexual issues, but I wasn't aware of that.

I wonder if she used it as a tactic to keep you around. To try and "ruin" you for any other woman.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:42 PM
Hold, can I ask, what STD it was?

I found out that I had HPV, the virus that causes cervical cancer in women, last year. That was hard to take. There is no test for men, but most partners of an infected person carry it, too, and it can lie dormant for many years. It is in a large percentage of the population. I don't know if I got it from H, or caught it before I met him. He's had many many more partners than I did. I remember how angry I was with H, that I was more likely paying the consequences for all the fun he had years ago, when we had so little "fun" in the present. But I had to accept it, because there was no changing it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
I wonder if she used it as a tactic to keep you around. To try and "ruin" you for any other woman.

Well, we will smoke that out when I ask her to sign the notarized affidavit confirming that I got it from her. She thinks this is going to be "our secret". Only as long as we remain married. If she thinks I am going to stay married BECAUSE of this, she has another think coming.

Quote
But I had to accept it, because there was no changing it.

Yes, and we all know how good I am at accepting what I cannot change. wink grin :RollieEyes:
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
It seems I have caught Mrs. Hold's STD. I cannot believe I agreed to have unprotected sex with her. So now, not only have I allowed her to poison the time we have been married, she has succeeded in poisoning whatever time we may have apart.

Hold, I'm sorry this has happened to you. I know you probably don't want to hear this right now but you're just as responsible as Mrs. Hold. You didn't do enough to protect yourself and therefore you need to be accountable to that.

I understand the whole 'succeeded' part was your anger speaking out seeing it must be recent that you found this out. I hope you can find it within yourself to not cast blame. I'm sure your wife had no intentions of you catching this and I suspect she's going to have tons of guilt seeing you've contracted it. You tell me if I'm wrong.

I'm usually not a big fan of your W and the way she has treated you over the years ... but then you've decided to stay and take it. However, the things I'm hearing from you and other posters is really quite cruel and I would say quite disrespectful.

Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 06:26 PM
Oh and despite catching this I'm sure you can still go on to have an active sex life. You just have to be careful with your sex partner.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by MrAlias
Hold, I'm sorry this has happened to you. I know you probably don't want to hear this right now but you're just as responsible as Mrs. Hold. You didn't do enough to protect yourself and therefore you need to be accountable to that.

I know. I said as much in my post. I am not nearly as angry at her as I am at myself. I permitted this to happen. I must pay the price.

Quote
I hope you can find it within yourself to not cast blame. I'm sure your wife had no intentions of you catching this and I suspect she's going to have tons of guilt seeing you've contracted it.

I can refrain from blaming her. I doubt I will ever forgive myself.

She does appear to have tons of guilt. I have zero sympathy.

Quote
However, the things I'm hearing from you and other posters is really quite cruel and I would say quite disrespectful.

The only person I am disrespecting is me. And in my view, I deserve it.

Thanks for the honesty. I did not come here looking for sympathy. Nor did I come here to trash Mrs. Hold. I came to scream out my pain. And to point out the irony to the few people in the world who might appreciate it. It is not like I am going to tell anyone in person "isn't it ironic that after complaining about the lack of sex and remaining monogamous for 16 years I ended up catching a STD"?
Posted By: hanora Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:44 PM
Well, that is ironic (she says wryly). And I'm sorry that it happened, but I doubt that it was some plot on Mrs. Hold's part.
Also I doubt that it would make much difference to a woman who wanted to be your next wife - not exactly what one would choose, but not a deal breaker either.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:56 PM
Meh... I'm not paranoid by nature, but I'd at least consider that this was somewhat intentional on your W's part HOTI. I understand everyone else giving her the benefit of the doubt, but given her history of lies, and manipulation, is it really all that implausible?

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

-She knows you have poor boundary enforcement.
-She knows that you have been desperate for sex.
-She knows you are unhappy and consider divorce regularly.
-She knows that no man in his right mind, and with a capacity to support her will have her in her present state.

Considering what she did to attract you in the first place, is it too cynical to think she'd pull something like this to keep you?

I can't decide if this is a Blake Edwards bedroom farce, or a Greek tragedy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by hanora
but I doubt that it was some plot on Mrs. Hold's part.

Agreed. I don't think she did it on purpose. Not even unconsciously.

On the other hand, Seabird can rest assured that even if she did, it will not increase the odds of my staying with her. If she thought I would feel "stuck" with her and thus stay longer, she is going to find out that I feel more "stuck" with her and thus more motivated to leave. If anything, this will not lead to less boundary enforcement. It will lead to more vigorous boundary enforcement.

Quote
Also I doubt that it would make much difference to a woman who wanted to be your next wife - not exactly what one would choose, but not a deal breaker either.

Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 01:03 PM
Quote
Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.

You weren't foolish. In the end your choice turned out to be a bad one, not because your W has an STD, but because she simply was so wounded or broken that she was unable to care for you in the least.

I believe there is a woman out there who would be honored to have you for a H ... so long as she didn't allow you to continue to wallow in your own self-pity like you do so often. I'd hope she'd be one to be strong enough to bust your chops and help you get your mind right.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game. For me it has been a long road in which I've had to do some hard work but in the end it is SOOOO worth it because there is NOTHING I cherish more than the love of my W. I wish that for you Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by MrAlias
I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game.

To me it is not worth the risk. If a woman loves me, we can date, or live together. If she wants to get married, I would be terrified that she has an agenda that is not in my interest. There is nothing she could say or do to convince me that she isn't planning to stop meeting my ENs as soon as we get married. The more she pushed for marriage, the more I would resist.

As I have said before, the only way I would marry again is if she made it worth my while to take that risk. Through an enormous up front cash payment combined with a prenuptial that made it clear I owe nothing upon divorce.

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?

I agree it wouldn't be fair.

I'm gonna hold out hope that this won't always be your mantra. I'm gonna hope that love will pervail and you will one day want to trust someone enough to be, yet again, vulnerable and toss both feet and your heart into the relationship.

It doesn't necessarily need to be a marriage but it does need to be a healthy relationship. Who knows what the future holds.

I will agree that you are now better positioned to not let history repeat itself.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?

I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 09:58 PM
I don't know what to say. I guess you've sealed your fate with this woman.

Just when I thought she couldn't do you much more harm.

What a warm, wonderful person, that Mrs. Hold--such a giving soul.

Stephen King couldn't write a better nightmare.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.

No offense man, but when you say stuff like this:

Quote
I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

...it makes me hope that you don't have sex with anyone else again. At least not until you can change your attitude w/re to dealing with someone else.

Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?

Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:55 PM
At this point, it's hard for me to imagine you away from Mrs. Hold. If I were to bet, I'd put my money against that happening.

But if you do, (and how I wish you did long ago), may you find a healthy, happy, kind and wonderful woman. They are out there, I can tell you. My marriage was somewhat similar to yours, and after having gone through the pain, and being reborn into a relationship with a sexy, warm, generous and REASONABLE woman, the difference is like night and day.

I really hope one day you shake the curse that is MRs. Hold.

Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.

Think about what you're saying here HOTI. I know - you probably do think about it quite a bit. Just a figure of speech.

But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?

Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?

Like your W did with you?

That's what I was getting at. The abuse I was referring to is that inherent dishonesty about where your limitations are and just what your potential partner can accept from you.

I mean really, what kind of half decent, non-enabling, non-codependent woman is going to willingly step into an involvement with you while you maintain this attitude? Anyone who will isn't going to be any better for you than your W. She might give up the hoohah a lot more, but you'll just be trading in for a whole new set of problems.

Why am I, the younger guy who barely squeaked through a city college, telling YOU this???

Know something else? I still think we're enabling you here. I think you're getting some ENs filled by this place, and it's holding you back. At some point, MB has become an addiction for you, feeding a need that you should be getting outside.

"I'm your pusher-man, baby." /Isaak Hayes
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by Seabird
But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?

Yes, exactly. Friends but not life partners. No strings. If there aren't any women who want that, then I guess I will do without. I mostly did without for years and years before I got married. I can do that again. Much easier to do without while single than to do without lying next to someone every night.

I am not looking for the "brass ring". I am not looking for deep love or lifetime commitment. FB sounds very appealing at this point.

You are not the first person to suggest I should want more out of life. I am not willing to pay the price for more.

Quote
Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?

No, I won't hide who I am and how I feel. I didn't hide myself from Mrs. Hold before we got married. I told her that I wanted lots of sex and that I have depressive tendencies and that she could expect me to under-perform my educational accomplishments. She just didn't believe me on either count.

I hide my feelings now because I want to stay with the kids. Once that is over, no reason for me to hide anything.

Quote
No woman who is not co-dependent will want to be with you

You are correct. No woman who is "together" is going to want me while I remain so damaged. I realize that now. You may see that as motivation to fix my damaged psyche. I just see it as reason to be on the lookout for something dark inside I haven't seen yet - because if she is willing to date me, it must be down there somewhere.

Ignoring that reality is what happened to Mrs. Hold and me. Neither of us could believe the other person was willing to "settle" for us. We were blind to the reality that something that seems "too good to be true" probably is - and to the dark secrets buried inside both of us.

In the future, I will not be blind to the likelihood that I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg. That will keep me from committing. And from knowing the joy that others report feeling from a truly intimate relationship. But it will also keep me from receiving a gash "below the waterline" that causes my ship to sink.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 12:57 PM
When you talk about how you told all these things to Mrs. Hold, it reminds me of me in my early life I met men who told me, this is all I can give, I can't give any more. And I ignored it, in the hope that my caring would cause them to love me more.

Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way. Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.

Its the reason that women used to go gaga for Mr. Spock. "Oh, but if he only experienced me loving him, he'd change".
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Happy2CU
Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way.

No, Mrs. Hold thought I was being modest as to my career abilities and "bragging" about a sex drive she didn't think I possesed given my lack of experience and generally passive nature. I don't think she believed she could "inspire" me to be different than I proclaimed to be. I think she thought I already was different than I proclaimed to be, and that she was shocked when I turned out to be exactly as I described myself.

Quote
Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.

At this point in my life, I am not prepared to take on responsibility for what someone else believes. Under MB concepts, it is a DJ for me to assume I know what they are thinking or what motivates them. All I can do is be honest and let them choose their behavior. If a woman tells me she believes I will eventually commit to her, all I can do is communicate my feeling of how unlikely that is.

I have spent a lifetime worrying about how other people feel and how my behavior might hurt them. I have been a "nice guy". All it has gotten me is pain. If I am ever single, I am not going to take it upon myself to protect another person from themselves. I am going to ask for what I want. They are free to say no. If they say yes, it is not my responsibility to ensure they are saying yes for the "right" reason. Trying to put myself inside the other person's head is what got me into this mess in the first place.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 02:59 PM
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?

And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?

Nope. Last "win" was getting into law school. And that was purely on grades and scores. Which for me was genetics, not hard work.

Quote
And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.

I would prefer if you didn't. But you can call me tax if you want something with less relationship connotations.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 03:46 PM
Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.

What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?

Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:11 PM
How about "Tex the Tax Man"?

Gives you a sort of cowboy aura. Content to spend nights alone on the range, with just the coyotes for company. Honest and WYSIWYG. A love-em-and-leave-em, no strings attached lone wolf.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:15 PM
I think I would feel ultra-gay calling him that.

Keep your fantasies out of this jayne. stickout
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.

Maybe. Hard to remember. I was disappointed at the time that I did not get elected to be a class representative. My Mom had broken her leg a few days before graduation. And I had the bar exam looming over me. I don't remember being elated. Maybe it is so long since I felt happy that I can't remember what it felt like.

It felt like a "win" when we got married. That feeling lasted literally until about midnight of our wedding day when Mrs. Hold got mad at me for going downstairs to see if there was a bottle of champagne available. I returned to find her in the hallway slumped on the floor crying that I had abandoned her. You know how that story ends.

I was pleased to make partner at my old firm. But we had started MC a few months earlier. Things were really bad with Mrs. Hold. So while I was pleased to make partner. It ended up being a pay cut for the first year. And my life was not happy at the time. I don't remember feeling victorious. Plus it was tainted by the reality that I had been partner with the guy in Florida who kicked me out 6 months later (the week before S14 was born) because he saw how much money we were making and he didn't want to share any of it with me. So partnership didn't feel "real". It always felt like something that could be taken away at a moment's notice.

Quote
What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?

Definitely not. In fact, that is exactly what I was hoping running would feel like: a sense of accomplishment. But coming in so far toward the back. Behind EVERYONE. Even the people decades older than me. And being the only person in my training group who did not reach my fundraising goal. No, I felt no sense of accomplishment. I finished the race in pain and felt like a failure. The process felt like more confirmation that I am a loser who will never accomplish anything.

Quote
Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.

Me too. Esp the hoti. But hold fits. I am holding on tight to all my fear, frustration and resentment.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 05:34 PM
If you were a horse, I'd have to shoot you.

Geez!

So, um... What are you afraid of, really? If you walk out I mean. That Mrs. Hold would... What? Clean you out financially? She's already BTDT. Take you away from your kids? She can't you know. You have rights as a father. They're getting older and spending less time at the house anyway.

I don't get it.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 06:37 PM
You are a good guy, Hold. You've done all of the "right" things, you're a decent family man who loves his kids (great kids, too!), and you've asked for so little out of life. You go to work every day, you give everything you have to your family, your patience with Mrs. Hold is legendary.

I've only heard you yearn for one thing over all of these years, and that's a little attention. You shouldn't have to beg for that, not a man who gives as much as you do.

I tell you, Hold--now this wife of yours has taken your clean bill of health, and that is just amazingly f'ed up (pardon my lack of ability to be more delicate here.) I can see it now, she's baiting you with your monthly sex, but the poor dear feels dirty when you protect yourself with a condom.

I've been thinking about this and you all evening since you wrote that. I've discussed it with L, the light of my life. I can't believe how much damage your wife has done to a good, loyal man. F your depression, F your "dark underside", F all of the bull she's made you feel. You told the truth, and contnue to do so. She has not and does not.

She has taken just about everything you can take from a guy.
I know you forgive her, but that is testament to your big heart.
What she has done to you over the years is egregious, loathesome, and unforgivable. SHE is the bad guy here. I'll never see it any other way, my friend.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:03 PM
Hold, your wife aside, the only person I've ever met more determined to be sad is my brother. He found reasons to be miserable on his wedding day.

This is all in your hands. You've done half-hearted attempts at therapy, half-hearted attempts at getting in shape, doing a fundraiser, fixing your marriage, being a good role model for your kids. Every situation you describe was destroyed by YOUR decision to be miserable, not your wife's, not your job's, YOURS.

Every time, YOU stop yourself. Do you want your kids to be like that? They will, if you don't get off your butt and start making changes. If you won't do it for yourself, sacrifice for your kids.

Go back to the doctor, ask him for mood-altering drugs, sign up for a year-long intensive therapy session, pay for a trainer who won't let go of you, make a conscious goal to save your kids from your fate.

Did you ever hear this story:

Happiness is a Choice

Michael is the kind of guy you love to hate. He is always in a good mood and always has something positive to say. When someone would ask him how he was doing, he would reply, "If I were any better, I would be twins!"

He was a natural motivator. If an employee was having a bad day, Michael was there telling the employee how to look on the positive side of the situation.

Seeing this style really made me curious, so one day I went up to Michael and asked him, "I don't get it! You can't be a positive person all of the time. How do you do it?"

Michael replied, "Each morning I wake up and say to myself, 'Mike, you have two choices today. You can choose to be in a good mood or you can choose to be in a bad mood.' I choose to be in a good mood.

"Each time something bad happens, I can choose to be a victim or I can choose to learn from it. I choose to learn from it.

"Every time someone comes to me complaining, I can choose to accept their complaining or I can point out the positive side of life. I choose the positive side of life."

"Yeah, right, it isn't that easy," I protested.

"Yes, it is," Michael said. "Life is all about choices. When you cut away all the junk, every situation is a choice. You choose how you react to situations. You choose how people will affect your mood. You choose to be in a good mood or bad mood.

"The bottom line is: It's your choice how you live life."

I reflected on what Michael said. Soon thereafter, I left the tower industry to start my own business. We lost touch, but I often thought about him when I made a choice about life instead of reacting to it.

Several years later, I heard that Michael was involved in a serious accident, falling some 60 feet from a communications tower. After 18 hours of surgery and weeks of intensive care, Michael was released from the hospital with rods placed in his back.

I saw Michael about six months after the accident. When I asked him how he was, he replied, "If I were any better, I'd be twins. Wanna see my scars?"

I declined to see his wounds, but did ask him what had gone through his mind as the accident took place.

"The first thing that went through my mind was the well being of my soon-to-be-born daughter," Michael replied. "Then, as I lay on the ground, I remembered that I had two choices: I could choose to live or I could choose to die. I chose to live."

"Weren't you scared? Did you lose consciousness?" I asked.

Michael continued, "...the paramedics were great. They kept telling me I was going to be fine.

"But when they wheeled me into the ER and I saw the expressions on the faces of the doctors and nurses, I got really scared. In their eyes, I read, 'he's a dead man.' I knew I needed to take action."

"What did you do?" I asked.

"Well, there was a big burly nurse shouting questions at me," said Michael. "She asked if I was allergic to anything. 'Yes,' I replied. The doctors and nurses stopped working as they waited for my reply. I took a deep breath and yelled, 'Gravity.' Over their laughter, I told them, 'I am choosing to live. Operate on me as if I am alive, not dead.'"

Michael lived, thanks to the skill of his doctors, but also because of his amazing attitude. I learned from him that every day we have the choice to live fully. Attitude, after all, is everything.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Hold, your wife aside, the only person I've ever met more determined to be sad is my brother. He found reasons to be miserable on his wedding day.

Hey Sis, is that you? I was very sad most of my wedding day. I slept at my parents' house. Late morning my mom and sister left to spend the day with all the ladies getting their hair and nails done, makeup, etc. My dad left too, I think to play golf with his buddies. My guy friends were staying at the hotel where the wedding reception was. I called a couple of them. No answers. So I spent the day alone. I remember feeling very lonely.

Yes, I know that was my choice. I could have made plans with my friends. I could have driven to the hotel and looked for them. Or I could have chosen to be thrilled that it was my wedding day. So yes, I guess I chose to feel sad and lonely.

Thanks for the slap. You are right. I should do something. I will e-mail my buddy who was going to get me a second opinion about my personality disorder. But I doubt it will make any difference. Neither will mood altering drugs. They are like candy for me - they make no difference. I am simply too comfortable and get too much of a payoff from choosing to be miserable for talk therapy or drugs to have any impact.

I am going to push again for ECT. Sooner or later I will find someone to shock me.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:34 PM
Catperson,
That may be so, but he's got one hell of a millstone around his neck with Mrs. Hold. His decision to marry her has been a bane on his existence ever since. Luckily he has his two kids to offset that.

I would be depressed, too. It's more situational than chemical.

Hold's wife is a toxic person. She gives of herself to anyone but her husband, from whom she wrangled and extorted every last cent and shred of self esteem.

To put the icing on the cake, she has now given him her gift of disease from all the wild years of screwing and sucking lowlifes in bulk numbers. Of course, that's all she's given him, because she certainly doesn't provide Hold the benefit of wild sex.

F her weight loss, F her self esteem, F her comfort loving fat a$$, F her, period. She has taken a good man down.

Give the guy a little room to feel miserable. It's not exactly the Sound of Music over there.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:39 PM
Quote
I am simply too comfortable and get too much of a payoff from choosing to be miserable for talk therapy or drugs to have any impact.
Even if it means your kids will grow up just like you? Or worse, just like your wife? Since they don't have a single decent role model in their house to learn to live like?

I repeat. Quit being selfish. Quit enjoying your martyrdom. Quit ruining your kids' lives.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Catperson,
That may be so, but he's got one hell of a millstone around his neck with Mrs. Hold. His decision to marry her has been a bane on his existence ever since. Luckily he has his two kids to offset that.

I would be depressed, too. It's more situational than chemical.

Hold's wife is a toxic person. She gives of herself to anyone but her husband, from whom she wrangled and extorted every last cent and shred of self esteem.

To put the icing on the cake, she has now given him her gift of disease from all the wild years of screwing and sucking lowlifes in bulk numbers. Of course, that's all she's given him, because she certainly doesn't provide Hold the benefit of wild sex.

F her weight loss, F her self esteem, F her comfort loving fat a$$, F her, period. She has taken a good man down.

Give the guy a little room to feel miserable. It's not exactly the Sound of Music over there.
Easy, I call BS. I've been talking to Hold for 1 1/2 years and he has changed absolutely nothing. He keeps popping up once every 3 months or so to say he's done this or that, and then he lets it all fade back into the woodwork so he can keep getting his payoff for being a sadsack. We have all been helpful, generous, concerned, and NOTHING matters to him. Just like my brother, he feeds off of being miserable. His wife treating him like crap is just more gravy.

He CHOOSES not to try. I call BS.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:45 PM
Hold,
Get yourself out of the house. Find a buddy to go and do some skiing for a few days, or to just camp out in the mountains.

If Mrs Hold resists, tell her to shut up.

Take some guy time, get out in the elements, and clear your head.

Use your god given right to find a little freedom.

If it were me I'd take way more than a few days.

If I were closer I'd go with you myself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Get yourself out of the house. Find a buddy to go and do some skiing for a few days, or to just camp out in the mountains.

Easy, take it easy. Cat is right. It is not Mrs. Hold. It is me. My choices. I was like this before I met Mrs. Hold. Taking a vacation from her won't change a thing. I have gone camping with my college buddy several times. Went to my reunion with another buddy. She and the kids have gone away and left me home alone. I went to Switzerland 3 times by myself. She is not the problem. I am.

Originally Posted by catperson
Even if it means your kids will grow up just like you?

Yes.

Now you see why I keep pushing for ECT or TMS. I am addicted to these choices. I am never going to voluntarily change. I don't understand why I can't convince any of the doctors to authorize more drastic treatment. I'm obviously not advocating very well on my own behalf.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:06 PM
Sure Hold, you bet.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:25 PM
You dont need ECT.

You need DTB. (Divorce That B****)
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:26 PM
And she gave you more than a disease, she IS A DISEASE.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:27 PM
Hold,

I don't remember if you read "Healing The Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw or not.

Or if you went to Alanon meetings.

LA
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:31 PM
Which came first?, your low self esteem, or your ruining of your life by marrying the MRS.

But whichever came first, BOTH have to be resolved so you can have a good "rest of your life".

Get to it!



I think that IF YOU START TO IMPROVE YOUR SELF ESTEEM~ YOU WILL THEN HAVE THE STRENGTH TO DIVORCE HER......

OR: IF YOU DIVORCE HER, YOU WILL THEN HAVE THE STRENGTH TO IMPROVE YOUR SELF ESTEEM.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:46 PM
Not sure if I have that book. I have read so many self-help books over the years. I might have gotten it around the same time I got "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "When I Say No I Feel Guilty". And I got so excited by NMMNG that I might have forgotten to read HTSTBU. I have seen many recomendations for it over the years. I'll check downstairs and order it if I don't have it.

Never been to Alanon. Have been to a couple of CODA meetings. Not sure why you think I need Alanon. Are you suggesting that Mrs. Hold's history leads her to behave like an addict? I feel I am the one behaving like an addict here - I am addicted to MB and to navel gazing and the drama and the self pity. On the other hand, maybe I should go back to CODA. Today is D12's birthday, so I can't go tonight. But I think I can go next Friday. Friday the 13th. What an auspicious day to get back on the wagon!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 09:22 PM
Sounds like a perfect date for Mr. Hold's MO.

laugh

Do you think Alanon isn't for addicts, too?

Would you consider that Alanon is for anyone who's been affected by alcohol in their personal history? As they say...that could be a great-grandfather/mother/cousin/sibling/child/spouse...

Or great-great.

Or not so great.

smile

Thank you for checking it out. I truly believe when the pain of not changing outweighs the pain of changing, you will change your choices. You'll find that false payoff and in doing so, you'll see it shrivel up in shame and disappear.

And you'll miss it, a little.

Consider that no addict marries a non-addict.

I want to make you go "hmmmmm". laugh

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 09:47 PM
No addict marries a non-addict. Hmmmmm.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 02:30 AM
Maybe the doctors think that it won't do any good, that even after drastic "re-booting" of your brain, you will still be yourself. Your basic mindset has not changed in many years.

The question is, what will change it?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:32 AM
http://www.oshmanlaw.com/personal_injury/sexually-transmitted-diseases.html

People sue every day for others giving them herpes. You should sue the pants off her. Look at the damages this STD does to people, physically and mentally.

Sue her for all she is worth! (Oh I forgot,, she is not worth much)

Sue her for all her future earnings....or something...

Just sue her!!!!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:34 AM
http://www.drlaurablog.com/2008/11/14/husband-sues-wife-for-std/

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scrip...=/appeals/102000/&invol=1103100_2000
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:58 AM
HOLD, do you see that this herpes she gave you by refusing to let you wear condoms is YOUR TICKET OUT OF THE MARRIAGE?

You can hold it over her like a hammer all through the lawsuit and divorce you serve her papers for. This will control the damage you are afraid she would do during a divorce.
Posted By: kansaskitty Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 03:16 PM
Stella: In most states, spouses cannot sue each other, except for divorce. This goes back to the old common law theory that the wife's identity is subsumed into her husband's when they marry. In the Dr. Laura case, the wife was straying during the marriage. Hold married Mrs. Hold knowing that she had many sexual partners before they met, and from what I infer, knew she had this STD at the time they married. Hold has not indicated that Mrs. Hold has strayed during the marriage. Also, I don't think his wife refused to use condoms-she just preferred not to, and apparently, so did Hold. So I think the likelihood that he could win damages against her are pretty slim, even if he can sue her in Connecticut.

I do think that if he wants to divorce her, he could use the STD as a psychological weapon to get better custody of the children. This would make the divorce a very nasty one - as nasty as his marriage. The children are adolescents now. It is a possibility that they would find out about the STD if its existence was mentioned in any of the legal pleadings. Now I don't think that even Hold hates Mrs. Hold enough to brandish that weapon with the possibility the kids would find out and the resulting harm that would occur to them.

This situation really sucks all the way around.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 03:48 PM
From one cat to another...you are probably right...

I just want the MRS to feel as much or more pain than she has inflicted on her husband all these years. Literally she should be sued! Or put in jail. For all the bad she did to him.

The MRS HOLD MARITAL RESUME:

1. Stole all his savings and lied about it (total around 112K)
2. Ran up all thier cards and lied about it
3. Savings now gone,cards ran up, money gone, then he found out.
4. Would not and will not work to make the money back
5. Demands more and more money and refuses to work
6. Demands $225K of home repairs
7. Demands trips
8. Demands he work more and more hours
9. Forged his checks
10. Continues to runs up cards
11. Demands and gets a large allowance
12. Drives 100 miles a day to spend more money
13. Lousy lover
14. SEX withholder
15. Tells him in detail how she used to LOVE sex with her other boyfriends. Real nice.
16. Makes thier marriage unpleasant every day
17. Brings stress on HOLD and the kids by verbally abusing him
18. Eats too much
19. Refuses to work at all. At home or on a job.
20. Demanded a houskeeper-she will not clean house
21. Insults HOLD in public
22. Demands trips, vacations, and jewelry.
23. Does not care about HOLD ever retiring
24. Gives HOLD an incurable disease
25. She could care less for anyone but herself
26. Treats HOLD bad in front of the kids.

We could go on and on. Had it been my spouse, I would have divorced her years ago but I would not have had children so I dont know that end of it. I think I would have rather married a criminal than a "Mrs Hold".

Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 05:05 PM
There is one good thing about Mrs Hold. She is working out and trying to lose weight. Even if this is for selfish reasons, it is a good thing.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 05:15 PM
Hold- The reason most doctors won't give you shock treatments is because you are not showing signs of severe mental instability. Most of your issue is you do not stay with nor listen to any therapist you go to. You are right your wife is not your issue. Learning to love yourself is the issue. That can't be done with drugs,shock therapy ect. You have to learn the right tools to deal with your issues. Face it Hold your life is not that bad. Come on you have a good job, if you were doing as poorly as you say you are do you think they would keep you on? I highly doubt it not in this economy. Your wife is not perfect but I do believe she loves you. You need to learn to love her for who she is not who you wish she was. However before you can even begin to heal your feelings for your wife you need to heal yourself.
If you don't 1 of 2 things is probably going to happen. Your children will copy you as adults. Or they will become resentful of your issues as adults and back away from you. I am sure you don't want either of those things to happen. Children eed secure role models to follow especially in their teens. Your son especially is watching you it is how kids learn to be adults themselves.

You have health insurance find a good psychiatrist not just a therapist. They can set you up with some good group therapy sessions.

I'm sure I have said these same things to you about 3 or 4 times in the last how many years Hold. You know what to do.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:50 PM
Great post, Jilly. I was going to chime in here with my standard reply to the kids when they start telling me something:

There are 3 sides to every story.

Your side

Their side

And the truth.

And that goes for my own situation and Hold's and pretty much everyone's. Not to say one person is wrong or right or more wrong or more right--that's what all the discussion is for! But if Mrs. Hold were to start posting, what would she say? If my husband were to start posting, what would he say? We all see things through our own filters and that's where communication breaks down.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 09:28 PM
Hold, you should print this out and tape it to your bathroom mirror, you car window, and your computer screen:

Most of your issue is you do not stay with nor listen to any therapist you go to.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 03:39 AM
Not sure why I would listen to this doctor any more than I listened in the past, but I got a name from my buddy the psychiatrist and I will call tomorrow. Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.

This hurts my head.

Hopefully... You're unhappy enough... To finally take some advice.

For what?

Be happy???

In order to be happy, you need to first be even more unhappy before you might take and follow the advice you're given?

Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.

Of course I am flailing. I have been flailing for the past 25 years. Hopefully I am finally ready to stop flailing.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:23 PM
Seabird, that actually makes sense to me. Hold and I are alot alike. The fear is strong enough that we will put up with a LOT until we finally can't any more. Getting to a level of unhappiness that trumps the fear is what it takes for people like us to be willing to face it.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 08:34 PM
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just really struggling to understand this mindset.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 09:03 PM
Good point seabird. Trying to imagine what it would be like to not be able to make my life better or get out from a bad situation.

Change is hard always.
Everybody has fears

What rules your life, FEAR? Fear of change? Fear of making a decision?

How could fear of change keep you in a life of heartache for many years?

Choices:

I choose the abuse rather than choosing to get away from the abuser because___________________.

I choose what I know, even if that is terrible, because in the past every choice I have made is bad and I will be punished for choosing at all.

I am not able to CHOOSE. I must remain STILL and PASSIVE and REFUSE TO BETTER MY LIFE.

I am NOT going to think about all my choices and CHOOSE the best one for me. After all, I am not worthy to have any kind of good life. I refuse to CHOOSE my life's direction.

The direction of my life IS NOT UP TO ME. It is up to _________and _______ and _______________.

I want to have nothing to do with the direction my life takes.

If I be HAPPY or if I be UNHAPPY, I simply REFUSE to make any changes. My happiness is unimportant.

I would rather be unhappy all my life than take a risk or make any changes.

CHANGE = DEATH.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/09 12:57 AM
Change has always opened many doors in my life.

From unexpected breakups to job layoffs, it has always, bar none,
made for a substantial improvement.

The largest pay increases I've ever gotten have come about from first being let go from one company, then being hired by another at marked increase. Upsetting at first; rewarding later.

Breakups, always hard, have moved me to quit jobs (co-workers) and one time, when an engagement soon after college broke off, it caused me to travel across the country aimlessly with friends. I wound up in Seattle working at Microsoft, and experiencing many, many awesome women along the way.

I made a killing in stock options at Microsoft in the 90's. I also had more sex than I could ave possibly imagined.

If I had amrried that devilish girl, I'd be have been bound and gagged forever in Houston, texas.

My marriage,which lasted only three years, was the worst. She was a very beautiful sociopath, and the relationship did a lot of damage. The divorce was very hard for me, as she was the one who left. I implored her to stay and work it out. She was like the trollop in East of Eden. I now see how blind I was, and how I was used.

It ended up being the very best thing, as my relationship now is
amazing beyond words; she is my soulmate.

I hate change, I really do. But it has heralded in the very best things in my life. I'm a believer now!
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/09 04:55 PM
[[color:#99FF99]quote=holdingontoit]
Originally Posted by Seabird
Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.

Of course I am flailing. I have been flailing for the past 25 years. Hopefully I am finally ready to stop flailing. [/quote]
[/color]

I hope you are ready Hold.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/15/09 07:50 PM
Stellakat;

I understand the pain you want her to suffer, but even looking over your list..some of them wouldn't fly in court..


Quote
I just want the MRS to feel as much or more pain than she has inflicted on her husband all these years. Literally she should be sued! Or put in jail. For all the bad she did to him.

The MRS HOLD MARITAL RESUME:

1. Stole all his savings and lied about it (total around 112K)
(they were married..martial assets--unless they had a pre-nup)

2. Ran up all thier cards and lied about it
(again, martial assets--and he chose to give her the cards to use)

3. Savings now gone,cards ran up, money gone, then he found out.
(again..martial assets)

4. Would not and will not work to make the money back
(he can't say she has refused to work, because she could prove she did work..maybe not the entire time of their marriage, but she did work)

5. Demands more and more money and refuses to work
(he does not HAVE to give into her demands)

6. Demands $225K of home repairs
(again, he does not have to give into her demands, just because she want's it doesn't mean he HAS to go into debt to provide it)

7. Demands trips
(again, HE did not and does not have to give into her demands--if he gave in it was his decision)

8. Demands he work more and more hours
(again, if he works more hours, that's on him..HIS decision, no matter what she 'demands')

9. Forged his checks
(this one he probably could have had her prosecuted for, but I don't know what the statue of limitations is)

10. Continues to runs up cards
(if she is continuing to do this..it's on him--He could very well close all the accounts)

11. Demands and gets a large allowance
(again, He doesn't HAVE to give her such a large allowance, HE, alone makes the decision to give that to her)

12. Drives 100 miles a day to spend more money
(if he cut up the cards, and dropped some of the allowance, this might change)

13. Lousy lover
(can't sue for that)

14. SEX withholder
(might be able to divorce for this, as an act of fraud)

15. Tells him in detail how she used to LOVE sex with her other boyfriends. Real nice.
(might be able to divorce for emotional distress)

16. Makes thier marriage unpleasant every day
(he chooses to stay in the unpleasant marriage, so that is on him)

17. Brings stress on HOLD and the kids by verbally abusing him
(again, might be able to divorce for abuse)

18. Eats too much
(he can't control that--but I don't think he can sue her for being a glutton)

19. Refuses to work at all. At home or on a job.
(she could prove otherwise, as she has worked outside the home at various times)

20. Demanded a houskeeper-she will not clean house
(he can refuse to pay for a house-keeper)

21. Insults HOLD in public
(again, he could divorce for abuse)

22. Demands trips, vacations, and jewelry.
(he does not have to give into her demands)

23. Does not care about HOLD ever retiring
(not sure about this one..I think she would love it if he could retire--as long as they could travel)

24. Gives HOLD an incurable disease
(he knew this was a possible consequence of his choice to have unprotected sex with her)

25. She could care less for anyone but herself
(unfortunately, I don't think you can divorce someone because they are selfish)

26. Treats HOLD bad in front of the kids.
(again, a good case towards abuse)

We could go on and on. Had it been my spouse, I would have divorced her years ago but I would not have had children so I dont know that end of it. I think I would have rather married a criminal than a "Mrs Hold".

Had you known the things he did before he married her, like she had an STD, You probably wouldn't have married her to begin with, because you would not have wanted to take that chance..

But the truth of the matter is, he's made choices for counseling, he's made choices to limit her access to credit cards, and has made great strides in certain areas..but even with the area of counseling, he has refused to stick with it, and find out WHY he thinks this is all he deserves..he has refused to look within and make the changes HE needs to inside himself..because like many others..he has the attitude that "I'm not gonna change unless they change first" even IF they are the one who is miserable with their life..

Which sounds pretty stupid to me..If I am miserable I'm the one who needs to change things so that *I* am not miserable anymore..
but the truth is..He finds comfort in being miserable, he thrives on it..and as the saying goes..Misery loves company..so he stays married so he has company in being miserable.

But in all honesty, I don't think Mrs. Hold is all that miserable--I think she's frustrated and acts out in that frustration..

I think she's one of those people who believe tearing someone down will make them want to change..as if tearing someone down will motivate them to want to change..focusing on the negative trying to change those things..instead of focusing on the positive and offering encouragement and building them up..which is what might actually be more helpful in bringing about the change..

That is something he does, instead of tearing her down about not losing more weight fast enough...he tries to encourage her..

Maybe that is something they could discuss sometime..why his encouragement towards her gets her upset..and him asking her if his tearing her down would actually get her more motivated to change (she would probably say it would piss her off) in which case he could ask.."then why, do you think tearing me down is going to motivate me to change to do more??" "Don't you think it pisses me off too to hear nothing but negative things being thrown at me all the time??" "Do you think yelling at me, and criticizing me causes me to want to try harder at work??" "Do you think it makes me want to take you on those fancy trips or buy you that expensive jewelry you love so much??" "Do you think tearing me down in public makes me want to take you out to a nice dinner or even a business trip with those I work with?"
"do you honestly think it makes me want to show you I love you, by doing those things for you??" No, it makes me angry and it hurts, and it makes me resent you, and it makes me wonder why I ever married you to begin with, and at times, it makes me wonder if I want to remain married to you in my old age if this is what it's going to be like for the rest of my life."

They need more openness and honesty in their marriage..but until he's ready to have that conversation..no matter what any of us say..it won't make a bit of difference..until he's ready to take that risk..and speak up for himself and follow through if things don't change..












Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/15/09 07:57 PM
Stellakat;



Quote
Change is hard always.
Everybody has fears

What rules your life, FEAR? Fear of change? Fear of making a decision?

How could fear of change keep you in a life of heartache for many years?

Choices:

I choose the abuse rather than choosing to get away from the abuser because___________________.

I choose what I know, even if that is terrible, because in the past every choice I have made is bad and I will be punished for choosing at all.

I am not able to CHOOSE. I must remain STILL and PASSIVE and REFUSE TO BETTER MY LIFE.

I am NOT going to think about all my choices and CHOOSE the best one for me. After all, I am not worthy to have any kind of good life. I refuse to CHOOSE my life's direction.

The direction of my life IS NOT UP TO ME. It is up to _________and _______ and _______________.

I want to have nothing to do with the direction my life takes.

If I be HAPPY or if I be UNHAPPY, I simply REFUSE to make any changes. My happiness is unimportant.

I would rather be unhappy all my life than take a risk or make any changes.

CHANGE = DEATH.

I love this post...it bears repeating!!!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by ThornedRose
at times, it makes me wonder if I want to remain married to you in my old age if this is what it's going to be like for the rest of my life.

I am long past the wondering stage. Other than that, your post was spot on.

Mrs. Hold gained .6 pounds last week. She "cheated" twice and had pizza for dinner. And it may have something to do with her cycle. Hopefully this week will be better.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 05:33 PM
hold, are you going on walks or anything with MrsHold?
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 05:39 PM
hold


Quote
Mrs. Hold gained .6 pounds last week. She "cheated" twice and had pizza for dinner. And it may have something to do with her cycle. Hopefully this week will be better.

A couple slices of pizza are not the issue..a person can still lose weight even if they eat a couple slices of pizza..however, if she's like many (if not most) women, her being on her cycle may have more to do with it.

Has she gone to the doctor yet to have her thyroid tested to check if that is more the issue?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
hold, are you going on walks or anything with Mrs Hold?

As far as I can remember, Mrs. Hold and I have not spent any UA time since the kids got back from visiting the grandparents over New Years. Nevertheless, she got me risque Valentine's Day cards. She asked for a hug yesterday and 2 hugs this morning. Those are things I asked for and never got while we were working on our marriage. Makes staying with her more pleasant, but I am still unwilling to exit withdrawal.

In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 07:14 PM


[color:#6600CC]In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters. [/quote][/color]

Hold that is just plain stupid! Why does changing yourself and making yours and your families life better = death.

Man go get yourself some help!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 08:06 PM
I will. I guess in these trying economic times everyone feels they need a shrink. I am having a hard time finding one with slots available. But I will.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/18/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Seabird
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.

This hurts my head.

Hopefully... You're unhappy enough... To finally take some advice.

For what?

Be happy???

In order to be happy, you need to first be even more unhappy before you might take and follow the advice you're given?

Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.

Actually it makes perfect sense if you've ever read the book Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. The concept of differentiation is what HOLD is referring to here, which is essentially the idea that within the context of an intimate relationship we will not engage in real change unless and until the pain of remaining the same outweighs the uncertain future that we face by changing. HOLD is undoubtedly capable of absorbing enormous amounts of pain and anxiety, as is Mrs HOLD, before choosing to better differentiate themselves, which is what is required for either of them to move forward at least in my view.

HOLD, been a long time since I've posted. I pray that Mrs HOLD bears fruit while participating in this newest weight loss endeavor. I know her weight gain has always been a real sticking point for you, and while I know resolving the weight issue by itself won't go nearly far enough to permit you to exit withdrawal and re-enter the conflict stage in an effort to get back to intimacy, it's better than the alternative yes?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/18/09 09:53 PM
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.

I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.

The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.

You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 05:22 AM
hold

Quote
Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.

Though you are not looking to go through, I believe you would go through it. Because despite everything you have been through, you still love her.

I think the most difficult part for you, is going to be trusting she's really willing to change and work on the marriage. And you will go through what most people go through at that stage.."why now?? Why after all these years are you willing to do this when you haven't been willing before??"

But its possible all the anger you have been sitting on for so long will come out full force..probably not in a physically violent way but verbally..but I could be wrong, people snap all the time--you hear about these folks on the news when they interview neighbors.."they always seemed like such a nice couple, he was always so nice to her, I never expected anything like this."

So I think it would be best for you, your wife and your kids, if you work on that anger and resentment now..before you snap and either say or do something horrid, if she decides it's time to finally work on the marriage..or even to end it..

I think even then..you might snap, that it's taken her so long to decide she doesn't want to be married to you anymore..
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 04:10 PM
We can agree to disagree whether I would go through it or how much I still love her as a romantic partner rather than as the mother of my children and a fellow human being who I know has good intentions toward most other people.

As for working on our marriage, I am no longer open to that. We both need to work on ourselves first. If we both make major changes, maybe then we could discuss working on our marriage.

I agree with you that anger is my major life problem at this point. I am getting help for my personality disorder. I cannot imagine that my anger will toward Mrs. Hold will dissipate before our divorce.

But all things are possible, so I won't say never.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.

HOLD, thanks for responding. Life is currently going as well as can be expected given the current economic climate. I am simply hoping to stay gainfully employed at this point. Relationally, W and I are on somewhat of a high right now and are really connecting and avoiding LB's consistently. I've also finally had some real victory over my narcissism and have become much more of a servant to her by spending a lot of my waking moments studying my W at every opportunity in an effort to love her in ways that are truly meaningful to her. Don't get me wrong it's oftentimes two steps forward one step back, but overall, I feel like we're in a good place right now and heading in the right direction consistently, PTL.

Quote
I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.

They are good reasons. Glad to hear about D12's success and progress as well. Small victories are worth celebrating! smile I'm actually in the exact opposite situation personally. D14 has recently been diagnosed with ED-NOS or Eating Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified. Closest to anorectic symptom-wise. This was a huge wake up call for us back in December and we are now in a mix of individual, family, and nutritional counseling due to this latest development. The good news is D14 is aware of her need to get better, but it's obviously still quite a large struggle for her, and therefore affects the entire family from many different aspects.

Quote
The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.

HOLD, I don't see these as less good reasons. I don't see your EN for physical attraction as invalid in any way, shape, or form. I hear you on the concerns surrounding infidelity, but whatever her motivation, the result seems encouraging to say the least.

Quote
You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.

I know you feel that way now and you may very well be correct in your assertion that your feelings toward her will not change no matter what kind of success Mrs HOLD experiences. One of the realities that I've come to accept in relationships is that no matter how much one spouse improves, if the other spouse refuses to participate meaningfully, it is difficult for the intimate relationship to improve meaningfully. Yes, the hope is that the one spouse making improvements and changes by definition changes the dynamics of the intimate relationship, but the underlying assumption the the changes to the relationship dynamics are always going to be positive is what I no longer agree with. Positive change individually indeed can lead to negative change relationally. As you alluded to, if you better differentiate yourself, this may eventually mean that you actively choose to no longer be married to Mrs HOLD, not because of your ill will towards Mrs HOLD, but because you come to the realization that you can no longer violate your own integrity as an individual by staying in the marriage due to emotional fusion between the two of you. This is a perfect example of positive individual change leading to negative change relationally. Sure, it's entirely possible that better differentiating yourself could lead to Mrs HOLD responding in a similar fashion. At the very least, if this actually does occur and some type of positive relational change results, then perhaps at some point you may challenge your own assumptions with respect to the marriage. I'd submit that you'll have to cross that bridge if and when you come to it. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 06:52 PM
Anything is possible. Previously, I did not imagine that I could be the partner she needs me to be while she works on her issues. She needs someone who will not pressure her for sex and not mind if it doesn't occur. I never thought I could be that partner. Now that I no longer desire to have sex with her, maybe I CAN be the partner she needs. Right now, I don't want to be that partner. But feelings can change. They changed in this direction. Presumably it is possible for them to turn back.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 10:45 PM
Since when is anger a "personality disorder"? Is that was this liberal, no-fault country is coming to? If you have anger then the problem lies in your head?

I seriously disagree. You have cause to feel anger, and depression too. Living in a situation like yours is not fulfilling, at least not in a lot of ways.

I would wager that if you won the lottery, and Mrs. Hold lost a ton of weight, she got a job and paid back everything she ever swindled, and she started having crazy sex with you, then you would feel quite happy and content and all of this talk about personality disorders would go out the window.

So it is causual. Work on the sources, not the symptoms.

Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/20/09 07:17 AM
Easy said what I have been saying all along.

If you are in a bad marriage, a bad situation and married to a miserable selfish woman, then you are SUPPOSED TO BE UNHAPPY!

Do you know why?

Unhappiness is sometimes a SIGN that tells you to protect yourself by removing yourself from a marriage like that. It is given us.....so that we dodos get the idea that we should NOT REMAIN IN THAT HURTFUL situation.

If you were on drugs, or crazy, or simply for some reason...happy...even with abuse and neglect, then your body would not recognize a bad situation, and therefore you would continue to be blasted with awfulness..

Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/20/09 11:03 PM
At the same time, Hold gets blasted for making resolution to take steps for his own happiness (which probably includes things that would de-stabilize his family), and then falling back to status quo.

I see the situation as perfectly normal. And it has more to do with strength of character than it does mental disorder. The family comes first, no question about it.

My point to Hold is that there IS satisfaction out there, on all different levels. Anything from a nice massage from a hot, young provider to a full-on affair to a discreet one night stand. I'm using sexual examples here, because that seems to be Hold's dearest desire at the moment.

Hold has basically set his boundaries, but those boundaries don't have to be a prison. The world is rife with pleasurable offerings.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/21/09 12:28 AM
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?

Not to worry. It will never happen.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 08:43 PM
I'm saying Hold doesn't have a personality disorder, his anger and depression is largely causual, and nobody shoulod blame him for hedging on making some drastic decision, ie divorce, that is
often talked about.

Perhaps I was out of line issuing those examples, but they are ones I would consider were I to find myself in Hold's situation.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 11:36 PM
I have read posts from Hold where he says that he was sad/depressed before he even met the missus. The situation with MrsHold probably has made this worse, but doesn't change the fact that he feels something wrong within himself.

I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.

That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Happy2CU
I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.

You are correct that if I felt better about myself, the situation with Mrs. Hold would resolve itself. Whether leaving her would be an "improvement" is for each reader to judge.

Quote
That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!

She will not get a job while we are married and I retain my job. She has made that very clear despite my being clear about all the things I have no intention of paying for. Every time she asks "when are we going to _____?", I respond with "whenever you can pay for it yourself." There are even things for the kids that she wants that I have rejected (save the date cards for D12's Bat Mitzvah, another travel basketball team for S14). Nothing seems important enough for her to work to obtain it.

Then again, the same could be said about me. As I have often remarked, we are very well matched.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 05:01 PM
Sad Sad Sad as adults you two can play the games, feel sorry for yourselves all you want. The really horrible fact of your issues is how it will affect your children longterm. They both are old enough to figure out what is going on. If you don't make some changes soon you will have two kids who may grow up with alot of their own issues because they spent their lives dealing with yours.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 07:16 PM
Agreed. That is why I never say I am staying FOR the kids. I am staying with the kids. I am staying with them for ME.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 08:57 PM
So, you , are saying, that you don't care what issues they will have growing up then. That is not important enough for you to seek help and make changes in your life. Hold, you get one chance in life. You get one chance at being these kids father. There is no rewind button. God I wish there was. I wish every day that I would have done things differently when my kids were young. I wish I would have not been an enabler in my ex husbands mental illness and either sought help for him or left but I didn't have the information resources then as I do now. I didn't realize that something was wrong. You however do have the resources and support with this forum. Again this is not about your wife she has to deal with her own demons this is about you. You need to deal with yours so you can raise healthy well adjusted children.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 09:35 PM
Let me add to what Jilly said. Your kids are being affected NOW by the sick relationship you and thier mother have.

1. Your son was suicidal and needs mental health help
2. Your daughter has an eating problem and eats to cover up her confustion and hurt.

So, you still have time to divorce thier mother and become a healthy strong role model for them. But not much time. Those kids are troubled and affected every day by that selfish disrespectful mother and by you, the supreme enabler.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/04/09 10:00 PM
Hold, you've been really effective protecting your family from your W's financial shortcomings once you became aware of the problem. Do you have any advice for Tama or Cat?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:05 PM
Since the program began in January, Mrs. Hold has lost 24 pounds. Including 7 pounds lost since the formal program ended on March 8. She has gone from a size 18 to a size 12. We are going away this weekend to visit family, and she "complained" that most of her outfits are too loose. Except the one she found downstairs that she hasn't been able to get into in years. Kudos to Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Esox Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:16 PM
Hold,

Thanks for posting to me over on my thread.

Have you thought of getting her a new outfit, or some flowers, or? to mark the accomplishment? I know it won't help your marriage, but I think it would show caring for your kid's mother; if not your wife.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:32 PM
Kudos! Has this rubbed off on your daughter, the new food choices, the increased activity?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:35 PM
Esox
At the moment I am not enthusiastic about being demonstrative in terms of material items.

I do tell her frequently how much I respect the progress she has made, how impressed I am with her commitment, and how good she looks. I compliment her in front of friends. Last night I complimented her openly in front of some of our best friends and their family. I tell the kids she is "melting away" and "shrinking before our eyes". I ask her every day about her exercise class. Which one she took. Who lead the class. How it went for her. I encourage her to take the long view and imagine how she will feel in the fall at D12's party if she continues to lose weight slowly but steadily.

At this point, I am not making enough progress in my "stuff" to expend more energy trying to improve our marriage or rebuild my romantic love for her. I have to stay focused on my stuff. Just wanted to pass along the good news about Mrs. Hold. Lord knows I complain about her enough around here. So when she deserves praise, I want to praise her here too.

Originally Posted by ears_only
Kudos! Has this rubbed off on your daughter, the new food choices, the increased activity?

Thank you for asking. Yes, D12 is doing better. The new food choices help. The kids tend to eat for dinner whatever Mrs. Hold makes and these days she cooks healthier. Also, D12 has hit puberty and the resculpting of her body helps. She weighs the same as 6 months ago but she is taller and shaped differently. Less in her belly and more other places. We didn't want to jinx ourselves by hoping for this, but we knew it was possible and are gratified it has occurred.

D12 does not exercise more than before, because Mrs. Hold tends to exercise when the kids are in school. But this is peak competition time for D12's synchro team so she is in the pool alot.
Posted By: Esox Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:38 PM
I understand about the material stuff. I really do.

I have some stuff of my own to sort out.


Have a good weekend.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:28 PM
Mrs. Hold has lost a total of 27 pounds and continues to exercise daily. Often she takes 2 classes per day. She should soon break through the 160 pound barrier.

Today she got tangible proof how far she has progressed. She had her annual mammogram, and each breast fit onto a single film. First time ever, since she only started getting mammograms after she gained the weight with D12. I congratulated her on her progress, and told her I hope that next year they can use one of the smaller size films - but that I will support her even if she continues to require a large film wink grin.

Also, we have basically resolved our sexual mismatch. I can no longer achieve or maintain erections, so I don't bother her for sex. She still hisses at me to stay on my side of the bed, but I no longer mind complying. Not the resolution I was hoping for, but less stressful than before.
Posted By: curious53 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I can no longer achieve or maintain erections

You're on anti-depressants, right? If not, please see a doc to rule out any medical problems (heart disease, prostate stuff).
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:59 PM
Oops, double post.
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:04 PM
Then get you some Viagra. Insurance will only cover so much...and it's not enough. Start stockpiling now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by curious53
You're on anti-depressants, right?

Nope. No medications. Couldn't stay hard with Mrs. Hold last few times we had sex. Difficulty staying hard each time I masturbated since the last time with her. This is not medical. This is inside my head, just like all my other problems.

Anyway, the good news is that Mrs. Hold is making progress. We aren't getting along any better, but right now our lives are more about our own journeys than about relating to one another. So her progress is evidence that our incompatibility need not prevent either of us from achieving life goals.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by dkd
Then get you some Viagra. Insurance will only cover so much...and it's not enough. Start stockpiling now.

?????????????

When you have sex as infrequently as we do, if insurance covers ANY Viagra it is more than enough. I bought a box of condoms in 2004 and we still have several left. Of course a few times we did not use one, but that won't happen again.

Anyway, why would I want Viagra? That would imply I want to have sex with Mrs. Hold. These days I prefer to avoid sex. Not being able to achieve erection means I am less likely to pursue her for sex when I get horny. So Viagra is the last thing I want. I can reach orgasm through masturbation even without the erection, so I don't have to worry about clogging up the plumbing.
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:35 PM
Hey, I'm not having sex either, but I do intend to again, so I've got some pills stored up.

I understand that you don't want to have sex right now, but it seems that getting the pills would be a proactive of telling yourself that the current conditions are not what you want, and that you expect them to change. Also, getting the pills doesn't mean you have to take them, it is a couscious decision still. Even if you do, it doesn't make you sexually attracted to someone, your body still has to react to the stimulous. Your reaction is just...enhanced.

Honestly, your acceptance of the situation seems to be a way at getting back at your W in a way. "Look what you've done to me. The lack of sex has screwed me up to where I can't have sex anymore." Even though she doesn't want to do anything with you, showing that you don't even care about it has to hurt her feelings. I think doing something about it shows that you give a dang about her and about yourself.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by dkd
it seems that getting the pills would be a proactive of telling yourself that the current conditions are not what you want, and that you expect them to change.

Agreed. But I don't expect the conditions to change. And I am choosing to stay with Mrs. Hold anyway. So getting the pills would just drive me crazy. I would feel hurt every time I saw them and realized it was the same number of pills as the last time I saw them. No thanks.

Originally Posted by dkd
Honestly, your acceptance of the situation seems to be a way at getting back at your W in a way.

Perhaps. Or perhaps it is my way of sending the message that she ought to start looking for another guy to meet her needs. My subconscious is so mixed up these days, who knows what message it is trying to send.

Originally Posted by dkd
Even though she doesn't want to do anything with you, showing that you don't even care about it has to hurt her feelings.

Not sure I agree with this one. She is very quick to complain if I move around the bed in a way that she perceives could potentially mean I am moving toward her. Even when I have no intention of going anywhere near her (which is pretty much all the time once we get under the covers). I only move toward her when we are above the covers, and then only to lay my head on her thigh. Sometimes she strokes my back and I find that pleasurable so I admit I seek that out. But I don't make any moves on her. No wandering hands. After a few minutes I go back to my side of the bed. Then when we get under the covers I stay on my side with a wall of pillows between us.

So if it bothers her that I can't get it up anymore, she has given no sign of it. Remember, we are talking 2 or 3 instances over the past 5 months. So it isn't like she keeps putting the moves on me and I reject her. And of course she is completely unaware of my performance problems during masturbation, since that is an activity that dare not state its name in our house.

Nevertheless, I guess it is possible that it bothers her but she hasn't communicated that to me. Would I do anything about it if she did? Hmmmm, that is an excellent question.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 10:59 PM
I am sorry but you married a very difficult woman. You tried everything to get your marriage to be more functional and great. You tried all you could to stop her from spending you blind and have her willing to make love on a regular basis.

Instead, she slams you in bed, disparages you daily in front of the children and alone, spends all the money she can get her paws on, refuses to work, demands trips, dinners, beauty treatments and lunches. She will not abide by the limited spending rules you set down again and again.

She has absolutely NO respect or love for you HOLD and your important private parts know this.

She has also RUINED you SEXUALLY by her 12 years of angry disparagement and overt rejection of you in bed and put downs of you sexually. You are now sexually warped. With another loving woman you may eventually recover, maybe not.

THIS WOMAN SHOULD BE PUT IN PRISON AND TORTURED LIKE SHE TORTURES YOU GLEEFULLY EACH AND EVERY DAY.
Posted By: AverageGuy Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I can no longer achieve or maintain erections, so I don't bother her for sex.

Uh, Hold, how old are you? A couple of months ago I started to notice that I can't pop a woody as easily I I could when I was 20 years old. Well, the benefit is that I no longer embarass myself when I see a cute chick, on the street, but unfortunately it takes me a while to get going in the bedroom. Ouch!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 11:11 AM
AG:

Yes, I understand and agree about the age related changes. And yes, it is welcome that I don't pop wood at the cute young associates. But not being able to achieve erections even during masturbation is an unwelcome change. Not saying it takes longer or takes direct stimulation where mental imagery was sufficient before. Saying that even with continued direct stimulation and potent mental fantasy there is little or no reaction.

I think Bubbles, although over the top and excessively negative toward Mrs. Hold, is on target. I am warped. And unlikely to heal while I stay with Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Wknghrd2LoveEasy Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 12:32 PM
Hold,

I have never posted to you before, but read your posts regularly. Please forgive me for butting into this delicate subject. I may be a woman but I actually know a bit about it.

If you have not had it done, please consider having your testosterone levels checked. Testosterone is important for SO much more than sex in a man. It helps determine his moods, his strength, his ability to sleep and think clearly. Low levels make it difficult to exercise and muscle mass sometimes shrinks even if you are attempting to exercise. It affects the functioning of the thyroid and can affect the heart. Low tstosterone weakens the bones. You have many symptoms of possible low testosterone, including your depression.

Lower testosterone does indeed occur as men get older, but sometimes it just drops too low.

My BIL has been depressed for a number of years. He has become increasingly less motivated, lost weight, can't sleep and had all the accompanying sexual problems. My H and I really believed that low testo was the culprit. My sister was finally able to convince him to get it checked. Low and behold, his testo levels were at the bottom range of what is considered normal(200-900). He began to use testosterone supplements and HIS LIFE WAS TRANSFORMED. I am not kidding.

The impotant thing to remember is that testosterone is not produced by the body merely so a man can have an erection. A male body needs it for countless other reasons.

I have been DISGUSTED by doctors though who laugh when a man wants his levels checked or insist that as long as the level is at 200 or above that things are just fine.

I am condensing this because I only have a few minutes to write, but would SOOOO encourage you to consider this possibility. Not so you can have sex with Mrs. Hold, but so you can feel better than you have maybe felt in years.

Blessings,
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 01:58 PM
1st, Bubbles, I don't think it's fair to Hold to belittle his wife so strongly. By that I mean that Hold allows this to happen and needs to take some control over what happens to him in his life. Not blame, but control. He is not damaged goods and still very capable of some amazing things.

Hold, from my experience, a woman will tell you that she doesn't want any physical attention from you, but still wants to know that you find her attractive. Maybe that sounds insensitive, don't know. I'd get the pills for you, because as you admitted, it bother's how you feel about yourself, which is extremely important. Get your T levels checked if that's what you needed.

Why are you trying to send Ms.Hold a message. If you want her to go get another guy, then tell her that. Be honest with her, be honest with yourself. I understand that you have a no hope for a happy marriage but what to keep the shell in tact. I still don't think that's a good reason to lie to yourself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 05:23 PM
Mrs. Hold knows I find her attractive. I pinch her butt and tell her she is beautiful on a daily basis. I refer to her as the incredible shrinking wife. I tell her how great she looks and how impressed I am with her progress. She does not need sexual attention from me to feel attractive. I think if I never had another erection and never attempted to have sex with her she would be very pleased.

I would agree with you that I should get the pills if I intended to have more sex. Not being able to perform sexually with my wife would be damaging to my self-esteem. But as long as we don't have sex, it doesn't matter. I am not going to pay money for pills so I can perform better during masturbation. To me that feels like some kind of cruel joke I am playing on myself. I would get the pills if I needed to them to achieve orgasm. But as long as I can orgasm, my hand is not going to complain about the state of my erections during masturbation.

I do intend to demand a testosterone check. I'll tell my doctor that I have problems sleeping (I do) as well as loss of muscle tone and erectile dysfunction. That should be enough to get the test authorized. Who knows, maybe they will find something is wrong. If the doctor tells me to take Viagra, I guess I will accept some sample pills.

But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 05:49 PM
Hi Hold,

You're in a tough sitch. ED can by a symptom of something else, so better have the doc check you up.

What are you doing for yourself lately?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 09:01 PM
Quote
But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!


rotflmao

This is becoming the male version of the feminine hygiene products aisle. LOL
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/15/09 01:43 PM
Mrs. Hold broke through another "decade" barrier today. Tens digit went from 6 to 5. Good for her.

She is driving D12 and teammates to Binghamton NY for regional swimming competition. If they place in top 4, they make nationals.

I will be taking S14 to state basketball championships this weekend. Top 3 teams make nationals.

So wish all the kids good luck!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/15/09 02:29 PM
Hold, I agree about the testosterone thing. In fact, many men are diagnosed with depression and put on ADs (which then worsens the sexual issues) when the real issue is the testosterone level. There is a chart somewhere on the web that truly shows what T levels should be according to age and it's not the farcical one that says anything over 200 is fine. That's fine for an 80 year old, maybe.

My H had this issue and I think it happened after he had his gall bladder out and developed some unforseen complications and got very ill. Somehow, his hormones were completely out of whack after that. And he was on ADs at the time. Finally, a doc said to him--let's test your T levels. And though they were well over 200, they were still well shy of where they should be. They kept him on the ADs but also put him on Testosterone. Wow, what a difference. He felt better physically as well as mentally, his sleep problems went away and his sexual issues resolved. And he was eventually able to discontinue. His body just needed a kick-start.

Even though he refuses to consider ADs again now, I wish he'd go back and get his T levels checked again. I think this latest round of stress from his layoff last year has screwed up his hormones again.

And good luck to the kids! My middle son was in US Swimming for about 4 years and made jr.nationals. I wish he hadn't given it up but he prefers the high contact/team sports.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 09:59 AM
D12 made nationals as an 11-12 soloist. Her 13-15 team also made nationals - extremely impressive since (i) one girl dropped out last week so they had 8 days to rechoreograph the entire routine to deal with her absence and (ii) the drop out left them with only 6 girls and there are increasing penalties for each person less than a "full" team of 8. As far as we know, no other team in the region as small as 6 made nationals.

Unfortunately, S14 did not fare as well. They won twice on Saturday (one in double overtime) but then lost twice on Sunday (once by a single point) to be eliminated. No nationals for them. Their biggest guy broke his wrist 2 weeks ago, so he was not at 100%. And their best player tore his ACL a few months ago so they have been less dominant than previous years all season.

As it happens, my uncle from Chicago was in town for business meeting on Friday so he stayed around and joined me to watch the games Saturday. That was a very nice day.

I don't think S14 was as upset as D12 would have been, so in the bigger picture the weekend results were fine. Now we just need to figure out how S14 will be spending his summer since he will not be having daily basketball practice.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 10:22 AM
Congrats on both your kids even being in a position to be doing these things! It really hit my D18 hard this year, when all the people her age are showing their accomplishments (and getting scholarships for them), and she has nothing to show for it. She pushes herself studywise, but wouldn't do sports, dropped out of choir, too clumsy for dance (though she did it for 3 years), just never wanted to belong to anything like that. Now it's hurting her.

That said...
As for S14, why not just let him vegetate, hang out with friends, read books, go hiking, play street ball, whatever he feels like? I truly think that we put too much onus on kids to be always performing and achieving, and that's why kids are so stressed out these days. They never have quiet time. They never spend two hours straight with no music, tv, games, or programmed activity.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 02:19 PM
Congrats hold! That's really cool about D12. It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.

I totally understand feeling torn when one kid wins more than another. Our S7b won his boy scout pack's Pinewood Derby, so he went to the regionals a couple weekends ago. Of course if S7b won, that means S7a didn't. Which really sucked because S7a was totally thrilled and excited for S7b when he won his first heat. It would've been nice if such enthusiasm had been rewarded by S7a also doing well. But we try to encourage them to be supportive of each other's accomplishments, and we try to make it a positive experience for them both.

IMO you've got a great couple of kids there. They are doing wonderfully!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 03:48 PM
Hi Hold,

I read that the book NMMNG got your attention. It's an easy to read book, yet very hard to do the break free exercises.

I think this might sum up what the book tell you. Your marriage will change to how you lead it, or it's been dead and you moving on is over due.

As you say, whatever Mrs Hold accomplishes from this weight loss program, you're on your way to running away.

Even though you know you're miserable, you feel you aren't in the position to make that decision. You're not ready, or there's no perfect time to break off, and you fear the unknown outcomes.

Perhaps you're afraid to be alone. You don't want to gamble the outcome of the custodial arrangements of the kids. I understand those fears.

You want to do the changes, but for some reason, there isn't enough factor to push you in deciding. I wonder, how far Mrs Hold needs to push over your boundaries before you make a decision to end the M?

If she gets another man, would that be enough? I think she might believe that, so she probably won't do that, and still get away with pretty much anything at your cost.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.

Yes, I agree it was a good experience for S14. Several of the dads in attendance complimented him on his play. Including some who are coaches of other age groups associated with the same organization who sponsors his team.

And it was great for him to play with people from a different background. He was the only suburban kid on an inner city team. So the culture was very different than on his local school and town travel teams. Just dealing with the other kids at practice was an education for him. Socially. Culturally. And he had to step up his game to handle the fast pace they use. he wasn't used to being on the receiving end of no look passes. Also, we played many games at inner city gyms. We were in a league based at the rec center of a low income housing project. Very eye opening for him to see the way those kids were basically the same as him but at the same time the way some of their lives differed.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 01:55 PM
Update:

Getting close to D12's party, and the money issues are causing nightly friction. I stay calm and "just say no" no matter how unreasonable I view the requests. After all, it is a DJ to think I know better than Mrs. Hold what is reasonable and unreasonable.

As for the rest of the relationship, there basically isn't one.

Mrs. Hold feels I have emotionally withdrawn. Which is true. She feels pain over that. Which is understandable. She wants me to comfort her in her pain. Which is not going to happen. Well, not anytime soon or without huge behavioral changes on her part.

As for sex, pretty much status quo. Except that I have communicated to her my current views. No sex unless and until we are able to talk about it outside the bedroom.

If I am convinced that she is an unrecovered rape victim, then I am obliged to refrain from sex until she seeks treatment. That she argues otherwise is not conclusive. If she can talk to me about what she likes and doesn't like sexually, then I can at least rationalize that she is sufficiently recovered to have sexual relations. If she cannot bring herself to discuss sex at all, then I have to stick with my gut feeling that she is not.

This is not about me and her. This is about me and me. Having the self-respect not to have sex with an unrecovered victim.

People have often asked me over the years why I still desired to have sex with her. Easy. I was wrong. Weak. Damaged. And sought to put a band-aid on my wounds. Hopefully I will now do what is needed to heal myself. Rather than trying to use my wife's body as first aid.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:31 PM
Hold...for what it's worth, I think personal integrity, especially in difficult living situations, is imperative. Intent is something that I would review frequently in your situation, just to make sure this is about integrity and not revenge of any sort, kwim? No offense intended.

Anyway, also wanted to mention that there are likely plenty of women out there who are not super comfortable discussing sex and aren't victims. Just saying...? Think we discussed this before.

Go with what feels right. Hang in there.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:50 PM
Soolee:

I admit it is possible that Mrs. Hold "just" be uncomfortable talking about sex, as many other women are. And that it might not be PTSD / trauma at work. But at this point, I can't think of anything else that operates as a "test" to see whether she is recovered - as she says she is. All aspects of her behavior other than verbal protestations say she is not.

My motivation is not revenge. It is self-preservation. I need something that helps me feel comfortable with my decision not to have sex with her. This seems to work. Whenever I get an urge, I think about what happened to her, and what it says about me that I desire to have sex with her, and I am able to control the urge and not act on it.

I agree that the "test" is in part designed to prevent sex occurring. Not to punish Mrs. Hold. Frankly, I don't think she will mind except as so far as it reduces her ability to control me through rationing access. Rather because having sex with her sporadically drives me nuts so I prefer not having it at all.

The talking is mostly about getting me comfortable that sporadic sex is OK. Like any other RC that we do only occassionally rather than regularly. If we can discuss her likes and dislikes and set some ground rules for what is OK and not OK for me to suggest during a session, then maybe I can get comfortable with going back to having sporadic sex. Otherwise, I am not enthusiastic. wink

See, unlike everything else I do, this is very MB-ish. No sex without a POJA first. And I don't see how we can POJA without talking about it! stickout
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:52 PM
Hey Hold? It might just work - who knows. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 04:01 PM
Hold I only came back on here to help YOU. I am busy with my own life and my marriage is really great now because of two things. I asked my husband to help with the kitchen and he not only took over that area of maintenance of the home but does the vacuming and cleaning of the house (between monthly HK visits) that we need to do. He watches the same amount of TV but watches some shows I like so we can watch those together.

Also, we were falling back into bad sex patterns like "forgetting" to have it for a month or more. I brought it up to him and suggested maybe we jump on the once weekly sex to improve it. I told him I loved him so much that when we have regular frequent sex, MY BODY feels like it loves him even more.

And I feel content and in love if we have sex about once a week. So he has made an effort to hold to that and it has been great. When you aim for once a week, yet if you get too busy for sex on a certain night, you can postpone it for a day or two and still make up for it.

If you do not plan the once weekly sex, then there is "nothing to make up for" and no REGULAR pattern to develop that you can both "divert from occasionally".

Enough about me. HOLD, I feel certain that you can have conversations about sex with your wife if you approach them the right way.

If you ask her to have a conversation about sex, then you are putting too much of the responsibility of that on her. Rather, you need to just START TALKING about one aspect of sex and catch her off guard.

Do not ask her to TALK ABOUT SEX. She will say NO. Instead, just start talking about it. Smile, touch her hand, and ask a few minor sexual things...starting with one little thing a day, to get her used to talking about it. She used to talk to you about her other sex partners when you went for drinks, etc that proves to me that she can talk openly about sex and that accidently and sadly now, you are maybe the one turning her off of talking about it with you.

To get the conversation moving, you could ask her:

Hi there, when you had sex,, did you ever do_________?

Hey, honey.... did you ever do _________?

(see what she says, do not go into a long conversation just bring up the question)

I like it when you do ______________in bed with me. Do you like that too?

Sometimes I like it when you do ___________, what do you think about that?

Do you prefer ___________ or _____________?

I know you used to really like sex from past conversations......(let her respond, do not say anymore)

Remember when we used to talk about sex while having drinks at that bar? That was cool wasnt it. (or, I think that was cool we used to talk about it)

I like talking about sex, maybe sometime you can I can speak about it. (look her in the eye, smile and walk calmly and happily out of the room)

(HOLD, REMEMBER YOU WANT TO toss out one question, keep it light and walk away. you do not want to try and trap her into some long conversation. you want to use these simple statements and happy questions as BAIT for keeping her coming back for more sex conversations. YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO SET UP A DRAMA AND MAKE HER CRAVE MORE AND MORE TALK ABOUT SEX. YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY SMART TO DRAW HER IN TO A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS. YOU HAVE TO MAKE HER WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT. OFFER REWARDS FOR HER DOING THIS. REWARDS COULD BE A LOOK OR A SMILE, A TOUCH OR A HUG.


Anyhow I do not have time to think up 100 sex conversation starters for you, you can think them up and write them out for yourself. But you get the general idea. If you make conversations with sex both pleasant and fulfilling you will gradually draw her toward you in that area and increase her comfort in talking about sex. More and more she will be comfortable talking about sex. This should translate over into improvements in the bedroom.

But not all at once, it will take months to break both your bad neglectful frozen conversation techniques regarding talking about sex.

At this time, the sex talk is fraught with bad feelings so it is no wonder she does not want to talk about it. There are failed expectations between you two revolving around sex issues in the marriage. Probably even conversing with sex brings up a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hurt, hostility and dissapoinment. If talking about sex makes you feel bad for any reason, you will want to avoid talking about it.

There are many categories and levels of "feeling bad about sex" which would freeze out any conversations about it. Yet all these could be overcome by good (in fact, perfect) conversation techniques.

Here are some things that could be affecting or blocking or getting in the way of good conversations about sex.

1. Her (bad or good) feelings about sex
2. Your feelings about sex and rejection
3. Her rejection of you sexually
4. Unexpressed hostility
5. Low self esteem
6. Bad coping devices like ignoring things
7. Her past sexual experiances
8. Your past sexual experiances
9. How neither one feels like there is any posibility of sucess
10. How the other parts of your lives fit (her overspending, etc)
11. The trust factors
12. How close your hearts are to one another
13. How openly you converse about other things
14. Bad general dynamics of your marriage
15. The lack of positives in your marriage
16. The weakness or strength of your love for one another
17. The lack of respect for one another
18. The personal fortitude, or lack of,that you have to persist with this
19. The desire, or lack of....to learn to express your needs to one another
20. The desire or lack of.... to have better conversations
21. The lack of time you spend learning how to properly converse
22. The X factor in your marriage
23. Underlying feelings/thoughts that are unexpressed
24. Actually how good or bad the sex really is....


There is so much more, I should write a book. I hope you can try this approach HOLD, you need to have a PLAN and start to approach this from a larger point of view.

The other way I have thought of is if you would FIRST learn to converse WELL ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE besides sex. You could then lay the groundwork or BRIDGE between you two and increase your abilities to simply converse. Once you have laid enough of that good groundwork which includes great conversation in other areas of your marriage, then you could introduce the sex talk. That is yet another of the 100 ways to approach this.

If you think BY SIMPLY asking her to talk about sex,,,,that this will ever work, you are wrong.

You have to be so much more skilled and sophistocated and know what is "actually going on" in your marriage, with your and her feelings, and with your lives, that prevent good conversations NOW ....before you will even be able to approach this delicate sophistocated and complex issue..... properly.

Sexual conversations are both "the touchiest" and yet the "most wonderful" of any conversations in marriage. You have to work up slowly and carefully to these. You have to learn good approaches to all your marital conversing but especially in this area.

YOU CAN DO THIS, but it is way more complex than you think.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:03 PM
Thanks for the advice. Sounds like it has a chance of working. I will try it and let you know. If I am staying, I might as well try to make the best of it. No problem with rejection, because I have no expectation of any response. I will not DJ and predict negative reaction on her part. Who kows, maybe she will surprise me!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:07 PM
Hold,

I hope you allow yourself to be surprised.

And to really not predict, expect, assume she will reject...to be right.

Just my own experience talking. smile

Hey, you gotta tell me the date of the big day for your DD...it's been in my mind for over a year and a half, I think, on your behalf, and I think it's significant when it's over. Something new on it's way...more clarity...if only we can reach that darn date.

If you don't want to say the date, then at least say a date it will have happened by...'k? Something...anything...just beggin' here...

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:27 PM
LA:

The date will have passed by Thanksgiving. The day of the religious ceremony is also my parents' 50th wedding anniversary and S14's birthday. So it is a big celebration.

Mrs. Hold got off the phone today with the entertainment and the caterer. We are "importing" the entertainment from Long Island. So it should be a novel treat for our guests from the "boonies" where we live in CT. And the caterer is more reasonably priced than the one we used for S14's. So Mrs. Hold is getting the "wow factor" she wants from the entertainment and I am getting the "cost factor" I want from the caterer.

We had a "dress emergency" last night. D12 HATES the custom made dress they picked up yesterday. Then she pulls out a black sequin dress from her closet. I think it is perfect. Mrs. Hold thinks it is too short. No budget left for a new dress. Dad tried to save it by buying a silver motorcycle jacket on Ebay that matches D12's shoes and allows her to "punk" her dress. Or maybe we will buy a 2" strip of fabric from JoAnne's and have the seamstress sew it onto the bottom of the black dress. We shall see how this is resolved.

D12 has learned all her prayers. I am almost done learning my reading from the Torah. I sent the brochure explaining the week's Torah reading to the rabbi for approval. So we have all the religious duties taken care of.

Now we just to "speciate" all the stuffed animals that D12 is donating to Ronald McDonald House as her mitzvah project.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 12:03 AM
Speciate? That's a new one for me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 11:50 AM
Far as I know we made the word up. Divide up the animals by species. So all the cats in one pile. Frogs in another. Etc. The centerpiece of each table will be a pile of animals from a single species. So there will be a puppy table, a bear table, etc.

Did a "drive by" comment about sex last night. Mrs. Hold smiled and nodded but said nothing. As bubbles said, this will take time and require skill on my part.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 02:24 PM
As long as you don't speciate in public, Hold.

smile

I like your creativity, and was thinking of something fun to lengthen the dress...like soft pink netting, only a couple inches longer. smile

You're the coolest father on earth to look up a way to punk her dress a bit. IMO.

I think you make tons of love deposits with the way you meet the FC EN. I wonder if you do the same for MrsHold, too...where your verve shines to make whatever she is frustrated with less frustrating through humor, creativity and loyalty.

Did you consider my idea years and years ago to make a statement box for her as a gift? Where you type up in single sentences each thing you love liking about her...where you appreciate, celebrate, admire...and you cut them into little slips and put them in a fancy box, so she can pull one out whenever she wants?

You'd have to curb your humor impulse, though...I just flashed on you writing "I like your species."

laugh

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:39 PM
LA: Thanks for hanging in with me. I know I am not always the most cooperative "patient". My problem has never been making deposits. It is the fact that I make even bigger withdrawals by (i) desiring sex, (ii) wanting her to control her spending, and (iii) being angry - and letting it show - when she doesn't. I have the funny, smart, entertaining part down pat. It is the strong, tough, dependable, self-reliant part I need help with.

Bubbles: Did another drive by today. Mrs. Hold called to ask about party stuff. At the end I said "I was thinking reverse cowgirl, what do you think?" She replied "you'll have to educate me." I explained. She said "that is easier when one is slightly lighter." I said "well you are more than slightly lighter, you are lots lighter." Left it at that. I view that as a positive exchange. Keep it short and sweet.

Of course, I don't have any expectation of DOING reverse cowgirl anytime soon (I don't expect any sex at all anytime soon). But it seems your idea about drive by comments is working. Thanks sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. smile
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:50 PM
HOW VERY COOL of you to do these drive-bys! I was imagining how this would work in my house because I'd *love* to have had something like this during the periods of time we seemed out of touch with each other. And I can imagine H saying short, witty things like this and I can imagine myself saying almost exactly what Mrs. H said (the self-depreciating comment about being lighter, etc.)., except that I'm pretty sure H would have gotten angry, accused me of taking the fun out of what he was trying to do, missing the point of what he was trying to do and then slamming me with "I'm just trying to lighten things up a little which is what you SAY you want. But with that kind of reaction, I'll never do that again."

This is not an assumptive DJ. This type of things happens all the time when my response is not what he wanted.

So, kudos to you, Hold. I think you made a sizeable lovebank deposit and perhaps, since you weren't expecting any specific type of comment or reaction in return, her reply didn't make any withdrawal for you!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:57 PM
No withdrawal at all. Limitation of this medium. Written words don't convey Mrs. Hold's tone. She wasn't complaining that it wouldn't work until she gets lighter. She was happily noting that it would be easier now that she IS lighter. Or at least, that is how I chose to interpret the words.

So it was in fact a huge deposit. grin
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 06:06 PM
Hold,

I wasn't thinking of you meeting her ENs more...or that you don't do sufficiently...

I was thinking this would be for you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I wasn't thinking of you meeting her ENs more...or that you don't do sufficiently...I was thinking this would be for you.

You mean she would give ME compliments? Oh, well, she does that from time to time. Problem is, I don't care. I don't want compliments. I want sex. And I want her to get a job and help pay down the credit card balances.

Compliments from her are not "rocks in the river" to me. They are grains of sand in the river. They don't pile up to make a bridge. They get washed down stream.

I understand that is partly about my internal dialogue. When she gives me a compliment, my internal reaction is "yeah right". Or maybe "so what". I don't feel thankful for the compliment. I feel like it is either a lie. Or besides the point. If she really thinks I am smart or funny or a good father, then she should show her appreciation by jumping my bones. If she doesn't want to jump my bones, I don't care whether she thinks I am smart or funny or a good father.

After all, plenty of people here and at work think I am smart and funny, but that still leaves me watching Cinemax in the living room at 1:00 am.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/30/09 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
You mean she would give ME compliments? Oh, well, she does that from time to time. Problem is, I don't care. I don't want compliments. I want sex. And I want her to get a job and help pay down the credit card balances.

I'm rewriting the rest of your reply (and no, wasn't about her giving you compliments, btw) as if your W were saying what you said about sex:

Quote
Sex from him are not "rocks in the river" to me. They are grains of sand in the river. They don't pile up to make a bridge. They get washed down stream.

I understand that is partly about my internal dialogue. When he says he wants sex from me, my internal reaction is "yeah right". Or maybe "so what". I don't feel thankful for the sex. I feel like it is either a lie. Or besides the point. If he really thinks I'm sexy, desirable, acting out his love by making love to me, then he should show his appreciation by telling me, talking to me, giving me the feeling we are allies instead of enemies...and because of this, I see sex with Hold like sleeping with the enemy. If he doesn't want to share his thoughts and opinions with me, honestly, I don't care whether he thinks I am sexy, desirable.

After all, plenty of people I've run into in my weight loss group, at the gym and the store think I'm sexy, look terrific...others do want to jump my bones, too--but that still leaves me feeling used and an object to Hold...since that is what I'm used to telling myself in my internal dialogue.

LA
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/01/09 12:57 AM
Wow, LA, that "flip" of Hold's comments makes a lot of sense... at least to me...
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 12:37 AM
Hold...question for you...have you figured out how much it might cost you if your wife DID work? Just wondering. I'm speaking in terms of actual cost. I'm not saying she shouldn't, but it was often a topic of conversation when I was working at a place with a lot of young women, many quitting after they had their first child.

For instance:

1) Would it possibly put you in a different tax bracket?
2) Would she need to keep her wardrobe updated?
3) Would she be brown bagging it or not?
4) Gas and car maintenance?
5) Childcare?
6) Would she be expected to take time off work if one of the children got sick, or would you be willing to share that duty? What would you do with your children during the summer?
7) Would it end up where you did all of the housework versus what you're doing now?
8) After all of that is subtracted from her paycheck, would what is left be worth not being home with the kids?

Just some things to consider. Like I said, I realize she has a lot that she needs to do to redeem herself, but wondering if you've thought it through completely.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:04 PM
LA:

I can easily see how this might be Mrs. Hold's internal dialogue.

That is why we are stuck. The implication of your rewrite is that I "should show his appreciation by telling me, talking to me, giving me the feeling we are allies instead of enemies". No way I am going to do that. BTDT. Tried to be her ally for 8 years. Got nothing out of it. Felt like a chump. A doormat. A fool. I am not going back there. Even if it means there is no chance of our marriage improving (which is what I think / feel / predict).

We are not allies. Each of us wants what the other cannot or will not give. Neither of us considers the other person's discomfort is sufficient motivation to stop asking for what we want.

This is why I am twisting myself into a pretzel. This is what I continue to search for. A way to convince myself that I do NOT want to have sex with her. Because she feels used and like an object. I am searching for a way to justify to myself that I can stop asking for sex. Stop even wanting to ask for sex. Without feeling like I have abandoned my personal integrity. Without feeling like a chump and a doormat and a fool.

So I convince myself she is an unrecovered victim. And that I should not have sex with her until we can talk about it. Knowing she won't talk about it. HOPING she won't talk about it. Because that gets me to a place where I can do the right thing. Maybe for the wrong reasons (mental game playing with myself rather than out of love and concern for her feelings). But the right thing nonetheless.

If I cannot be her ally. If I cannot be safe. If I do use her and objectify her. Then however I can get myself to a place where I stop asking for sex. Is a good thing. Not good for our marriage - because I will never be happy with our marriage while the lack of sex continues. But good for not using her. Good for not pressuring her. Good for not allowing my objectification of her to drive my behavior.

I am afraid. I do not have the courage to become a man she would be attracted to. That would be the best answer. Talk honestly. Share our feelings. Use her lack of attraction to motivate me to become a better man. I am never going to do that. I am too afraid / pessimistic. I am always going to choose to stay how I am. Weak. Fearful. I am never going to get to the place where we could share our true selves and she would find me sexually attractive. Given that. We cannot aim for a satisfying marriage. We can only aim for the least amount of pain.

Which is why I am still in the same place 12 years after starting MC and 7 years after arriving here. I know what I would have to do to actually resolve our problem. Become a man. And I am not going to do it. Because I fear I can't. And trying and failing would be even more crushing than rationalizing to myself that she should appreciate what I have to offer anyway. Even though deep down I know she shouldn't.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:17 PM
Soolee:

You make good points. I am sure that her working full time would require changes in our lifestyle. Not all of them welcome.

I also know that she did work part time for a year or 2 and she did clear more money than she spent on clothes / gas / lunch. And that our latest round of debt happened when she stopped working and she kept spending despite the lack of income.

So if she worked, it would lead to a positive cash flow after taxes and expenses. Which would take some of the pressure off me financially.

Am I as confident that she would be happier working for a little money than staying home with slightly less money? No. I assume she prefers to stay home. Which is why she is not hitting the pavement looking for a job right now.

Do I care if she is less happy working? No. I understand that is a very un-MB answer. I am supposed to care. I am not supposed to want to gain at her expense. Well, at this point I don't mind if I do. I understand wanting to gain at her expense is not good for our marriage. So what? Our marriage stinks as it is. It is going to stink whether she works or not. So if we are not going to be happily married, she might as well help pay down our debts.

Wow. That is as honest as I have been here at MB in a long while. Lately, I find myself censoring myself because of how my statements would look during our divorce. But really there is no point in posting here if I am not going to be honest.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:37 PM
Would she help pay down the debts, Hold, or would she consider it license or rationale to spend more? What plan would you have in place to insure yourselves that a spending habit isn't perpetuated or worsened by her working? Would whatever allowance she gets now, be then taken from her paycheck? Have you discussed this with her?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 04:25 PM
I have discussed working and how much of her paycheck she would get to keep and how much should be devoted to family needs. We have discussed what would be a fair split, but partly that depends on how much she earns. She has never stated it explicitly, but I imagine part of what de-motivates her from working is that she cannot spend all the money she earns on new stuff. Well, that and the negative impact on her divorce settlement.

As for steps in place, we are back to her not having any credit cards and living on a cash allowance. She gets a deposit every other week, same day my paychecks arrive. If she started working, I would reduce the automatic transfer to her account by whatever amount we agreed.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 02:35 PM
As you know, Mrs. Hold has lost over 40 pounds this year. She looks great. She goes to the gym almost every day and is in great shape.

Funny, I find it much easier to refrain from sex these days. The pull is much less, even though she is more physically attractive. Don't know if I am getting old. Or if I have trained myself not to want sex with her. But I do not find it difficult to resist whatever urges arise.

I still hold it against her that we don't have much sex. But I don't find it as hard to resist her as it used to be. Wierd.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 04:23 PM
That's because you have lost all your love for her. You stayed married too long, and your lovebank is not depleted, it's ripped to shreds and burned in efigy (sp?).

You waited too long to take action, and now you'll probably never get that love back.

She needs to know that.

The ONLY way I see it is if she once again fears you divorcing her, and gets her rear in gear and works on herself.

But she'll never do that unless you tell her you no longer love her and want to leave. (probably a dozen or so times might sink in to her head)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
That's because you have lost all your love for her. You stayed married too long, and your lovebank is not depleted, it's ripped to shreds and burned in efigy (sp?).

Hmm, I think there is a second f.

Well, then I guess I was correct all those years ago when I warned her to be careful about wishing for the day when I would stop wanting her sexually. Somehow, feels like a rather hollow "victory". Seems I would have preferred to be married than to be right.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:06 PM
It means nothing if a spouse improves thier looks or health. It means everything what is inside thier heart.

She still does not love you anymore
She is still overspending after all her problems with that
She is still disrespecting you
She is not sorry for spending you into the poorhouse of debt
Nor is she sorry for wanting to spend even more
She will not even think of working or contributing in any way
She demands a HK even though she has "nothing to do" and could clean house.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:09 PM
It would be hard to live with a woman like that much less have sex with her.

No one could trust her. No one.

Any man's instincts would tell him to protect himself from her and RUN if he knew the true personality of your wife:

These words would come to mind:

Herpes
Lies
Spender
selfish
Needs housekeeper
More money needed
Comfortable with debt
Dislikes sex

You, or anyone else who knew her, would have to be crazy to ever want sex with her again or trust her again with money, getting a job, paying off debt, paying you back the 112K she stole, or your heart.

You got a huge millstone around your neck even though the millstone is about 40 lbs lighter.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:17 PM
Bubbles, you know I love you, but please tone down the attacks on Mrs. Hold. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
No one could live with a woman like that much less have sex with her. No one could trust a liar like Mrs Hold. No one.

You mean no one healthy or sane. I have lived with her for over 18 years. I have had sex with her for 18 years. I trusted her for many years after I found out about the overspending.

You are correct that no one should accept such behavior and expect to be happy. Or to stay sane. Lord knows I haven't been able to. But it is clearly possible to live this way. After all, someone has. MrRollieEyes

Moreover, I don't think it has been a picnic to live with a pessimistic negative non-self-respecting person like me, either.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:19 PM
HOLD you did not push her into stealing, lying, or being disrespectful to you.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:22 PM
Hold...Do you feel threatened by her weight loss? Do you feel, possibly, less desirable in some way?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
HOLD you did not push her into stealing, lying, or being disrespectful to you.

True. It is like an affair. I may have created conditions. But she made the choice to do what she did.

Still, I would appreciate you editing out the most strident portions of your message from 12:09 pm. Thanks.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Hold...Do you feel threatened by her weight loss? Do you feel, possibly, less desirable in some way?

Threatened? No. I dealt with that with the viagra. At this point, if she cheats, that will just help me end the marriage without being the "bad guy".

Less desirable? No. No way for me to feel less desirable than I already feel. I never had a hot bod. There have been times when I was more fit and times when less fit. I have worn my hair longer and shorter. Grew a beard and then shaved it off. My physical appearance and fitness have never made much difference in how Mrs. Hold treats me.

Neither has her looks or fitness. She treated me just as poorly when we first got married and she had a killer bod as she did when she gained weight after the kids. She treats me the same now that she has lost some of the weight and gotten much fitter.

I had hoped that her getting fit and losing weight might affect how she feels about herself and about sex. But I guess we are too far down the road for it to affect how she feels about me. Then again, I always thought it would affect how I think about her, and it hasn't done that either. I feel just as angry and bitter and resentful as before she lost the weight. Which pretty much explains everything.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 09:34 PM
Okay.

Listen Hold...you've got what - 6 years before your youngest is gone? Can't remember.

How about you just concentrating on being civil, respectful, and a great dad, while doing your best to improve the finances. Cancel the credit cards in both your names. Open a checking in your name only.

Then make your departure when the youngest graduates. Try to think ahead, to what your life will be like when you don't have to be married. And stay upbeat about that pending freedom.

I'm at a loss for what else you can do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:09 PM
Soolee:

That is exactly what I am doing. I have remained civil and respectful to Mrs. Hold. I tell her how great she looks and how proud she should be of her consistent effort and improved fitness. I compliment her on her attention to detail on D12's party. I tell her she is a supportive friend.

I do my best at the Dad part. Yesterday D12 had a meltdown about her party. She went into her room. I followed her. She said "Stay away. You are going to say something smart and funny and then I won't be so mad." And then she giggled.

On Monday I am camping out at Gamestop with S14 so that he can get the new Call of Duty game when it goes on sale at 12:01 am. And I promised to open my own account at Xbox Live so my feeble efforts will not affect his score / rankings / reputation / etc. We talk fairly openly so I think things are going well there also.

I am also trying to get a life. I go to services more often. Attend all the temple board meetings. I went to a meeting Monday night to help plan a costume ball in February. Last Wednesday I had lunch with an old college friend and dinner with an old high school friend. So I am trying not to withdraw into my shell and stay isolated from the rest of the world, even if I am quite isolated from Mrs. Hold.

As for finances, our credit card balances after the party will be as high as they have been in 8 years. But mostly a joint decision reflecting the parties for S14 and D12. Since there are no raises available at my level and I am unlikely to ever qualify for a bonus based on my hours worked, I have asked for a % of the business I bring in. That will be small compared to my salary, but it will help pay off the credit cards faster. We should have them paid off by the time S14 gets to college.

So we can hope to make a "clean break" when D12 leaves home. As clean as can be when there is not enough money for either of us to keep the house. She can take her 401(k). I'll take mine. Worth about the same. Sell the house and split whatever equity, if any, there is. She will get whatever alimony the judge decides she deserves.

And then we move on. I do not look forward to that "freedom". All I ever wanted was to be in love with the mother of my children. But everyone has disappointments in life. If this should be the worst thing that happens to me, I am fortunate. Plenty of people survive divorce.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:09 PM
Hold: NED once suggested I work on Plan A-ing the kids since obviously Plan A-ing the spouse wasn't where I wanted to go.

I did that for a while and it really made me feel good. It made the kids feel good. I need to get back to that. Soolee's other advice is great too. I doubt I'll last another (for me) 8 years but applying the advice today, will at least leave me feeling like I'm moving in a forward motion and not in limbo.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:13 PM
Quote
All I ever wanted was to be in love with the mother of my children.

Boy, do I hear you on that one. Between the alcoholism and depression with my husband, I know he is too sick to ever be the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with. And that is not how I envisioned my life turning out.

I have to bring up NED again because she recommended a book to me--it's on the Alanon list of 'conference approved literature'. I just ordered it, in fact. And I can't remember the name of it! ARGH! But it's supposed to be about how to deal with the feelings that fall out of life not turning out as you'd hoped. Hopefully she'll come along soon and supply the title.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:17 PM
I know I sound down sometimes, but I am eeyore. I always sound down. I gave up on our marriage in 2005 when we stopped coaching with cerri. I have made 4.5 years since then and I can make 5.5 more. T-minus, what, 2066? With 6328 down? Wow, so I guess I passed the 3/4 mark. Piece of cake.

And who knows, maybe Mrs. Hold will surprise me. Maybe I will even surprise myself?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 11:44 PM
Call me Pollyanna today, but life could always be worse, right?

In a predicament where I wanted out but couldn't for several years, I would use that time as wisely as I could in all sorts of directions in my life -

Time with the kids, college education possibly, bettering the finances, losing weight, etc. It might help you to figure out the different areas of YOUR life and ask yourself if you're working on all of them, you know...being proactive in all directions.

Perhaps it is time to stop hoping for the marriage to turn around and maybe then your mood will shift in a more realistic direction. You can then start thinking ahead. What do people in jail do while they await freedom? They exercise, learn the system, try to learn a marketable skill or get a college education, own their wrong doings, cherish family visits, try to have some fun. You can do that, surely.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 03:36 PM
Yuppers. Focus on everything else.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 03:59 PM
Sounds like Hold, OH, and Ima are all in the same ocean, treading water.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 04:16 PM
I think if this is the path you have truly decided to take then make the next years the best they can be. With no expectations from your wife or your marriage. Have the best time you can have with your kids and your wife. If you have no expectations and then you are going to end it then maybe just maybe you guys can have a great time over the next couple years. Lots of laughter and memories. Just maybe you will be surprised.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:04 PM
Good suggestion, but sorry, no can do. I can't play with my wife and laugh with my wife and create memories with my wife and not want to have sex with her. Hurts too much. So if we are staying together without sex, we will be staying together without laughter and playfulness. The laughing and playfulness will be separate, or not at all.

No, I am not intending to have an affair. Just intending to somberly slog through this with her. And have the good times with kids and guy friends.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
[quote] it's supposed to be about how to deal with the feelings that fall out of life not turning out as you'd hoped. Hopefully she'll come along soon and supply the title.

I hope so, since that's the area in which I'm struggling right now... (not to t/j- just empathizing).
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:58 PM
Daisy, the book came in the mail today!

Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.

I got it on Amazon for $.50--NEW! (and I bought Buyers Renters & Freeloaders there too...NEW for $.25!)

Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 09:02 PM
Quote
I can't play with my wife and laugh with my wife and create memories with my wife and not want to have sex with her. Hurts too much. So if we are staying together without sex, we will be staying together without laughter and playfulness.
Sounds like an awesome thing to put in a card, and give to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/13/09 08:31 PM
Yesterday we took pictures (they won't let us take pictures at the synagogue tomorrow since it is Shabbat). In a few pictures the photographer had Mrs. Hold and I hold hands. She seemed to enjoy that very much. I felt wierd.

Huge extravanganza all weekend. Then no "togetherness" events on the horizon. My pulling away will be far more pronounced once there is no longer the need to discuss plans for the Bat Mitzvah. Planning for this event over the past few months has disguised how far apart we are.

If the hand holding is any indication, I don't think Mrs. Hold is going to enjoy the distance. I don't either. But I dislike it less than engaging with her emotionally but not having sex.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/13/09 09:29 PM
Gee, I still wonder why you assume she enjoyed holding hands with you...and didn't ask.

That would be connecting, respectful and decent. I believe that is what you truly want to be and won't hold yourself to acting from in your marriage. Would NOT open you up to more pain...you're already in it...Marge, you're soaking in it, anyway.

Lemme know when you truly want to stop soaking in it. Stop using your W as justification to stay in pain.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 02:39 PM
Weekend was great. D12 did a great job at the religious part. All the social events came off without a hitch. The DJ Saturday night was fabulous. During the party Saturday, all the kids yelled "I love you D12". She was queen for a day. So glad we could make that happen for her.

Now back to "real life".
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 02:57 PM
Oh, I'm happy for you Hold. And for your daughter.

There is little that feels so good as seeing your child grow up, affirmed, validated, and prized--and to know that you provided that for her.

Congrats, and good luck in the days/weeks ahead on the home front with W.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 03:21 PM
Mazel tov, hold! I'm very happy for you and your family. Congratulations to your daughter.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 06:31 PM
Memo from the silver linings department:

1. Mrs. Hold came down with flu yesterday. Better yesterday than getting the flu the day before D12's big weekend.

2. Since Mrs. Hold and I are so withdrawn, we slept far apart over the weekend despite the emotionally bonding event. If we were not so withdrawn, we probably would have hugged and kissed. Then I would have caught the flu from her.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 06:56 PM
lol - Oh Hold, you are something else. I hope she feels better.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 08:27 PM
Hold, you are such an optimist, always looking on the bright side! smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 06:38 PM
Today Mrs. Hold went to the clinic and was told she has pneumonia. Not surprising given how awful she sounds (which is why I strongly suggested she go to the clinic today). They gave her a prescription. She asked me to pick it up on the way home. I refused. She got very upset, until I explained I wasn't refusing to help her, I was not enthusiastic about her waiting the many hours until I will get home to start taking her medicine. So she is going to drop the prescription off on her way home (she was adamant about not waiting in the pharmacy for the prescription to be filled - my first suggestion), and then pick it up when she picks up D12 from school in an hour. Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!

I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks. Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while longer (I have been there since Monday). We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:02 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!

hurray

Wow, the world must be ending and h.e.double.toothpicks must be freezing over! Maybe the Aztecs and Nostradamus are right about 2012! (j/k)

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I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks.

Again, YAY!!!

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Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while. We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.

Ah, but wouldn't it make it more obvious to her how serious you are?

Is there a way you can avoid sleeping in the same bed as her without the kids knowing? (Dishonest to the kids, yes, but still...)
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:32 PM
Personally, I think it would be healthier for the kids to realize you ARE setting boundaries for a healthy marriage and abiding by those boundaries, than continuing to lie to them. If you think they don't know you have problems, you're being naive. And by not talking to them about your problems, you're teaching them it is normal.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:46 PM
No way to know what is best for the kids. It is one thing to say "your mother and I are having difficulty but we are committed to working things out." I could have said that honestly 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. It is different to say "I no longer love your mother the way I used to, and I am not sure how much longer we will stay together". That may shatter their world even if you also say "I will always love YOU and that will never change". Sometimes hard for them to believe your love for them will endure when you say your love for their mother has died.

As I have said before, I don't want to get divorced while the kids live home. I don't want to pay child support while living somewhere else. I don't want Mrs. Hold living with some other guy while DD is living with her. I care more about all those things than about telling my kids the truth about their parents' marriage.

Healthy boundaries? Healthy marriage? Not in our house. You need healthy people to have a healthy marriage. Neither I nor Mrs. Hold is healthy. No way for us to set an example of healthy living. We are choosing from alternate dysfunctions.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 08:52 PM
....
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 06:43 PM
Yesterday Mrs. Hold asked me when I was moving back into the bedroom. I said not until her cough clears up, which the doctor said might be a couple of weeks. Then she is flying to Florida to visit her parents, because her father is scheduled for surgery. So we may sleep apart for what will have been almost a month by the time she gets back home.

She asked for reassurance that I will move back when she recovers. I said something like "I guess we can work something out." She said "be careful before you say something hurtful". Later she asked why I don't want to move back. I said I thought she would appreciate not having to deal with my presence, stinky breath, stinky BO, hairiness, horniness, interrupting her TV shows, etc. She repeated "why don't you want to move back?" I said "it is stressful for me to be in bed with you. I feel uncomfortable when you complain about me." She said something like "I am sorry you focus totally on the negatives. You only feel that way because you have ANTS (automatic negative thoughts) in your head."

I am pleased that we got this out into the open. It is easier to be honest (to a point) now that I am much less invested in the outcome (her reaction). She is often disappointed with the content of my statements. But I do not allow my expectations of her displeasure to control my speech. She may not like what I have to say. That is for her to deal with. Hopefully she won't decide to leave me over it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 07:32 PM
I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.

And I've seen you be cruel before in your marriage and to yourself. I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...

"I'm rejecting you from fear you'll continue to reject me."

Instead, I heard you tell her "I'm going to DJ your response and tell myself I'm not so invested in your reaction."

She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.

How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?

You can get anything you want out in the open when you act O&H. You know that. You're pleased, I believe, because you zinged and rejected her...and were hurtful...you did her thinking for her. You hate it when she does that to you.

You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?

Now that the party is over...has she been spending over her allowance? Has she been LBing you in other ways?

Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?

She asked for what she wanted...what concerned her...and you said no to her. Later, she asked for intimacy, to know your "why" behind the rejection. Sounds like she wasn't ignoring you, didn't assume you'd be moving back into the bedroom, and she chose to act from love, even though she feared. And feared some more.

She wishes you wouldn't say things she takes as hurtful. And later, she came back and asked, anyway.

You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?

Seems to me, she's in a year of massive changes.

I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.

LA

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 09:25 PM
LA:

Let me start by saying that I am confident my wife loves me. She wishes we could be happily married. She wants to grow old together. She feels sad at the thought that our marriage is and has been unsatisfying for me.

The problem is, for me, that is not enough. If she cannot interact with me sexually in a way that is subjectively satisfying to me, then I am unhappy with our marriage no matter what else she does.

I understand that is my issue. My problem. My burden to work through. But if I have no intention of changing, then I have to deal with the reality that my marriage will continue to be unsatisfying for as long as it lasts.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.

I don't experience being a whole person, because I don't refrain from acting on it. When I do, I'll post about it here.

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I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...

No, not more honesty. That might go over the "edge". Hence my statement that I am bring more honest "to a point".

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She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.

Are you saying that I should embrace my ANTS the way I embrace my resentment? I do love my resentment. But the ANTS? I hate the ANTS. They are just about my least favorite part of myself. I am resigned to never doing anything about my ANTS. That doesn't meant I love them. Seems to me if I loved the ANTS I wouldn't feel so much resentment. If I loved myself, I wouldn't mind if Mrs. Hold rejected me. It is only because I have so much self-loathing - that Mrs. Hold was supposed to cure by accepting me unconditionally (and yes, I see the irony as regards what Mrs. Hold expected from me) - that her rejection bothers me so much.

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How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?

But dear LA, I am not staying true to my code. That is why I hate myself so much. I have never been true to my code. Early on I refrained from complaining. Hid my needs. Built up resentment. At myself as much (or more) than at Mrs. Hold. Then I started complaining and being honest. But she continued to reject me. And added other misbehaviors to the mix. Honesty and staying true to my code because too painful / costly (because it would require me to leave her). As long as I prioritize staying over all else, I can NOT be true to my code.

Or to put it differently, my code does not prioritize honesty as much as it prioritizes staying married to Mrs. Hold while the kids live with us. So if I have to jettison honesty to increase the odds (as I perceive them) that Mrs. Hold will choose to remain married to me, so be it. I don't like it. I don't like myself for doing it. But I will continue to do it nonetheless. Hence my discontent. I see my higher goal (stay married for 5.5 years) at odds with lesser goals (honesty, intimacy).

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You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?

I know she wants me there. I just wanted to hear her say it. She knows what I wanted. Which is why she did NOT say it.

The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.

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Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?

But I will move back in without any agreement on her part. We all know that. I do not have the guts to trigger a confrontation. That is why, as you said, this is all game playing. I will not live up to my code. Living up to my code would require me to stay away until she agreed to a contract and performed it. Which she will not do. Which is why my living to my code requires me to leave. Which I will not do. So this is all a game.

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You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?

Yes, of course it is projection. I have given up trying. Have given up hope for improvement. Am making no efforts. Have given up on either of us changing. I am determined to remain unhealthy.

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I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.

I don't really believe she dislikes my being in bed with her. My presence does not interfere with what she wants. My presence IS what she wants. On the other hand, I massively DJ her as to WHY she wants me there. That does not mean I am wrong. Just means I should ask her to confirm it.

Of course, she would never confirm it. That would require honesty. Which neither of us is willing to contribute to our marriage.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 10:32 PM
Then what are you still doing posting here on MB about your "going nowhere marriage"? You aren't marriage building. You are stalling, lying, DJing, and basically separating yourself from your wife. Whether she chooses to MB or not does NOT affect how you make changes in yourself. You are choosing to not change -- and it has nothing to do with remaining with your children. Call a spade a spade.

This continued "update" you give is given for what purpose hold? Any reason at all?

As you've stated, you've no intention of making the journey to a healthy life/marriage. So why continue to post about the exchanges between you and Mrs. Hold? It serves no purpose other than to continue to get people to engage you and then you can tell them how you think this about Mrs. Hold and how you think that about Mrs. Hold. But when called to task, you project -- you deflect. No matter the great insight someone gives you about what YOU are doing in your exchanges with your wife, you dismiss them as "not gonna happen cuz she did...and I won't...". You do this with your wife and you do this with your children.

The two are not mutually exclusive even while you want to believe it. Your children see and hear more than you know. They also are smart and intuitive. Give them credit for knowing more than what little you have told them. Of the parties involved, I feel most for your children because of the lies being "told" to them. What about that are you going to change? They didn't choose to be put in this position, but they sure deserve a parent willing to help them understand it.


Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 10:58 PM
I am here because this is part of how I medicate my angst from continually making stupid choices.

This is going to impact my kids no matter what. No way to insulate them. I am aiming for "by the time you guys divorced, we wished you had done it sooner". From what I have read of the studies of divorce and children, that tends to produce marginally better outcomes than the kids who wished their parents had stayed together. Still, it is a crap shoot no matter what you do. No way to predict how divorce will impact any particular child.

Look, in a tiny corner of me I still hold out hope that Mrs. Hold and I will reconnect. I am not willing to make any effort in that direction today. But maybe tomorrow I will be. Every year my sex drive declines. Maybe at some point it will fall so low that I stop wanting sex. Maybe then I will be able to let go of the resentment. Who knows.

If I were forced to make a move today, it would be to Plan D. Hence I refuse to move off the fence. Maybe some day I will choose to Plan A again. Maybe some day when the kids are closer to leaving I will be willing to have an honest talk with Mrs. Hold about what it would take for me to re-engage. For now, I do not feel safe entering into negotiations because I am unwilling to walk away. I need to be wiling to leave. Otherwise my negotiating position is fatally compromised.

Hopefully, she will put up with my withdrawal until then. If not, I will probably regret not doing more at this time. Then again, I have so many regrets I may not even notice another.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:31 PM
Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?

Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?

Life holds no guarantees.

How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:33 PM
Hold...I'm just wondering because if what we say to you makes no difference in your situation, maybe we are wasting YOUR time.

Maybe we're enabling your stagnation.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:48 PM
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The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.
I dare you to cut and paste this in an email to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?

Have talked to lawyers. My chances of getting primary physical custody are zero if Mrs. Hold also wants it. Financially, I have a pretty good idea where we end up given our relatively minimal assets. Neither of us can live as we desire on a portion of what I make. Either we move outside the school district or big downward mobility or both. Most likely both.

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Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?

I know it could be worse. I know in my present condition I would only be attractive to predators. That is why I stay married. To keep the predators away from my kids.

I am not saying my wife would AIM for someone who would harm our kids. She would not. It is precisely because I fear that other imperatives would push her to strongly desire a relationship with someone who can offer FS that I fear she might be an unsuspecting victim. I am confident Mrs. Hold would dump any guy who made moves on our daughter (if she didn't rend him limb from limb). Not so sure she would detect it before it happened.

As I say, in our current states we are both vulnerable and thus most attractive to predators. Hence prudence dictates we stick together.

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How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?

I would miss it. But not be motivated to take action. I took a break here for a few months. Made no difference in my activity or motivation level. I would just find another way to distract myself. At least this place keeps throwing good advice in my face. Perhaps some day I will be receptive to it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:26 AM
Cat:

I won't cut and paste. But I might have some more "drive by" honesty. Who knows, I might even slip up and have an entire conversation.

I should mention that D12 was in the room when Mrs. Hold asked me when I was moving back in. So I had to be brief in my responses. Especially since I felt somewhat ambushed in that setting.

Perhaps in a few weeks when Mrs. Hold is feeling better, and is able to stay up late enough for us to have a conversation without the kids overhearing, we can discuss this in more detail.

LAs point is the biggest one. I need to live in accordance with my "code". The fact that I feel so much anxiety over honesty shows that I am not doing so. Even as I say that staying married to Mrs. Hold is my highest priority. Obviously, I am lying to myself about that.

I know you are all praying that I find the motivation to stop doing that. Well, at least those of you who are not praying that I just "shut up already".
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:09 AM
I am not praying that you just 'shut up already', Hold. I would just like to see you right with yourself. If that means staying married until your kids are grown, great, but your unhappiness seems pretty clear and is hard to just ignore.

I want to be O&H with you, though, Hold. I sense that even when your kids are grown, you will not divorce your wife. I sense that you two will be so ingrained with each other that change will either seem too problematic and complicated or require too much energy.

I hope when you are deciding what to do with the rest of your life, that you will think about that at some point because I fear that years will turn into decades, and all this time when you could have been strengthening your marriage and willfully chose not to, will be wasted because although the marriage will still be intact, it will not be any happier. We can only expect from our marriages what we put into them. Things just don't improve spontaneously; they don't. They can't. It takes conscious effort.

On your deathbed, will you be saying "I wish I'd spent more time being unhappy"?

Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:14 PM
Maybe some day, Hold, it will not be enough to come here and "medicate your angst" and actual changes will need to take place for you make a move in your favor. I don't think you hope for that but we can. I mean this in the nicest possible way.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 02:58 PM
So last night I asked Mrs. Hold why she wants me to come back to the bed. She said "I like having you here." I asked her what she likes about it, since she constantly complains about my odor, body heat, breathing, talking, trying to touch her, etc. She said "we are married, you are supposed to be here." I said "there are no shoulds, and anyway I don't think you want to get into a discussion about what each of us is supposed to do because we are married."

I asked her whether she wanted me in her bed for appearances, so the children would not see our problems overtly. She said "that is part of it, but not the whole thing. I like having you here." I said "yes, I hear that you say you like me being here, but you don't seem to like me interacting with you. You don't want me right next to you. It appears to me that you want me a few feet away from you, but in the bed. As a matter of security. Kinda like D12 wants her blanket. A security device. A pet. Not a person." She nodded but said nothing.

So I asked her "what is in it for ME to come back to our bed. As you know, our marital bed has been a very stressful place for me. It triggers my anxiety." She said "sometimes it is stressful for me too." I said "yes, but you want me here anyway. I am not sure I want that. What is in it for me to be here?"

She said "I will be here." I said "yes, you and I will be together in bed, but that is what YOU want. What is in it for ME?" She said "you get to be next to your beautiful wife." I said "yes, you are beautiful. But you are my beautiful wife even when I am in the living room. That doesn't change as a result of where I am sitting."

We resolved to discuss this further on Thursday. Should be interesting, as she has so far offered me NOTHING to get me back into bed with her. I'll probably go back anyway. But it is interesting to discuss this with her calmly and watch her reaction. She appears to be VERY uncomfortable having this conversation. I care too, but as I am resigned to getting nothing from her, I am much less invested in her reaction than I otherwise would be.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
I want to be O&H with you, though, Hold. I sense that even when your kids are grown, you will not divorce your wife. I sense that you two will be so ingrained with each other that change will either seem too problematic and complicated or require too much energy.

Yes, I anticipate that as well. Very possible given my fear of change.

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all this time when you could have been strengthening your marriage and willfully chose not to, will be wasted because although the marriage will still be intact, it will not be any happier.

Here is where we disagree. I do not think I could be strengthening my marriage. What I am missing out on is NOT working things out with Mrs. Hold. That will never happen. What I am missing out on is improving myself and my life so that I am better able to attract and relate to a healthy partner in the future. If I don't do the internal work, then I will only be attractive to predators and other wounded persons. Not to anyone healthy.

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On your deathbed, will you be saying "I wish I'd spent more time being unhappy"?

No, on my deathbed I expect to have many regrets. But that won't be one of them. I think I have become quite adept at racking up subjectively unhappy time, and I expect to have continued success in that area.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:26 PM
Thank you for your response, Hold.

I see myself in you, Hold. The questions I ask you have been asked of me...and what I've asked of myself.

I learned I had life-long themes, those poles holding up the spiral staircase I am climbing...the patterns I kept running into in myself, giving me the same experience...

One was debt/gratitude...and another was abandonment/rejection. Would you consider you've carefully, through your meticulous cultivation of resentment, formed a climate of rejection for your marriage?

You're right about the ANTS...they are the entities that plow your fields of resentment, and they are excellent at their job.

Least they were for me...tireless, underpaid and seemingly rejected at every turn. They plowed on, though. They don't stop. Rejection feeds them more...because they think for you...they assume you don't mean it...you really want them to keep going to produce what you've trained your brain to hand you at every turn...more rejection, deeper resentment, an abiding entitlement.

I believe Mrs Hold is your true partner, your real mate in this life...you feed in her for her lines...very similar to your own. And through her, you truly can transcend your patterns...come to peace, joy and happiness. She's your ultimate path.

Believe it or not.

smile

And you are hers.

Living in a climate of rejection is rough...and secure. You can experience rejection moment by moment...and be right, smart, consistent. And miserable. And cause misery.

What woke me up was realizing I was causing misery, crushing pain into other people...which I didn't realize because I was too busy counting the ways I was being rejected (or could be, or had been) to see the pain I was dealing.

I don't know what your wake up point is...only you do. I do know the antidote for ANTS...when you crave freedom from them more than assured resentment through rejection.

Forgiveness and acceptance. Forgiving Mrs Hold for her prior behavior...so huge I think you might panic at the thought of it...accepting she really did hurt you mightily, repeatedly...and you really don't know why she did. No assumptions as to why--you don't know. Until she says why, you really don't know.

Forgiving yourself for doing great harm to her, as well...forgiving yourself for doing great harm, daily, to yourself...she couldn't earn your hurtful words and actions, nor could you, to yourself. You haven't been a child for a very long time, needing pain to learn what not to do...punishment isn't a growth choice, hasn't been. Has no redemption or reality...forgiveness and acceptance do.

And I believe you know these two potent antidotes. I wish you would choose to know them more intimately...within you...so you will see them in your wife, as well.

You didn't hear her ask you back, tell you she wanted you back in your shared bed...she didn't use the words you wanted, when you wanted them, stated in the way you would hear them. Please consider after a lifetime of rejecting others and feeling rejected, you won't hear...and she may be saying it, anyway. You smack her vulnerability down because you've practiced smacking down your own...you disguise a lot of cutting words in humor and mockery, and you feel mocked and rejected.

Reasonable to me...how else could you keep the resentment climate the exact right temperature otherwise? How else could you maintain the perspective that she was rejecting you, that you were only worthy of rejection?

We have weird comfort zones...and as you said, the lies we tell ourselves are the padding, the boundaries of that zone. Self-rejection will give you the life experience of rejection...and it isn't real.

Even though it really, really hurts.

I believe you're in this marriage because Mrs Hold really is the one you want to lead you out of this pattern; if she's the cause, she's the cure...the control of it. We make it into a hidden mandate...which transforms our best chance for growth into our best bet for continued rejection.

She can bring up you coming back to the bedroom in front of DD...and you can say, "I'll answer you privately." Your half is equal to hers...you have to keep judging and blaming to foment the rejection, maintain the diminishing returns of righteousness, besting her...

Or you can begin this minute and live differently. God didn't create you to design and maintain a life of rejection...you know he didn't...for by rejecting others, you reject him, too. Each time you smack down your wife's vulnerability, you do your own...and his presence in you.

And I know you know this. Is it His overwhelming forgiveness and acceptance, even his celebration of you, His fabulous creation, that you fear most?

LA

Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:38 PM
Hold - hoping I didn't offend you.

We had a death in our family last night. Not something any of us expected. A freak accident leads to a few broken bones...you expect to heal from something like that...then you develop internal bleeding and pneumonia, and your time is up...

Mortality and lost chances seem to be weighing heavy on my mind this morning. We take a lot for granted - that there will even be another chance, another tomorrow.

Every Sunday, when I kneel in church...I thank God for all my 'second' chances. I pray for guidance. I thank God for each new day, so that I can try again to be a better wife, a better mother, daughter, etc.

Some morning...I won't wake up - and I'm just hoping all my 'second' chances will amount to some measure of success - that I won't look down and shake my head at myself.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:17 PM
Hold,
sorry to butt in. Someone told me you and I were in a similar situation, staying in a miserable marriage to keep the spouse from remarrying worse. Here is a quote from an email I sent my FWH yesterday:
"We can try to continue to keep this marriage together and I can look the other way at all of your indiscretions, but once it starts to spill over into my day-to-day, I�m not going to be able to react calmly. Given the huge amount of sh-t-sandwich each of us has to swallow, any perceived effort to hand more of the sandwich to me will not be met well.
We can stay together to keep you from remarrying a teenager and to keep me from shacking up with some drunk (since that�s the way we�ll always view each other) but we both have to stay out of each other�s way."
When I read your posts, I get the feeling we are on similar paths. Good luck to you, as I cannot find a path out. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about your situation.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
And through her, you truly can transcend your patterns...come to peace, joy and happiness. She's your ultimate path.
Believe it or not.

I do believe it. As to both of us. We could heal each other.

I simply no longer believe that success is possible. Personal. Professional. Marital. I don't bother trying, so failure is assured. But it is a comforting failure. A chosen failure.

I might some day choose to forgive Mrs. Hold. I will never forgive myself for quitting. At life.

Quote
You didn't hear her ask you back, tell you she wanted you back in your shared bed...

Of course she wants me back. I understand she wants us to be together. ON HER TERMS. Just as I want us back together on my terms. We are the same. As you say, well matched.

Neither of us is willing to POJA. That is why I was so shocked last week when we did POJA on her getting her medicine. We simply do not negotiate. One or the other of us capitulates. I am sure I will capitulate on returning to the bed. And I will resent her. And I will resent me. And stay in my comfort zone.

Quote
I believe you're in this marriage because Mrs Hold really is the one you want to lead you out of this pattern; if she's the cause, she's the cure...the control of it. We make it into a hidden mandate...which transforms our best chance for growth into our best bet for continued rejection.

I agree she could be the cure. As I could be hers. However, neither of us will ever choose to be so gracious to the other. Hence the need for us to split.

I understand that her rejecting me comes from pain and fear. And that her life experience makes it difficult for her to leave herself vulnerable to me. And that I should reach beyond the rejection to the part of her that loves me.

It is too late for that. Perhaps if she had been honest sooner I would have been of a mind to try. At this point I am perfectly willing for the scared lonely abused traumatized little girl to continue cowering in the corner. It is what I have been doing my whole life. I am not motivated to help her climb the steps out of the dank cold dark basement. Rather, I am pleased to have some company down here.

I don't think anyone has to worry that I will look down from Heaven with regret or that God is celebrating anything about me. I may have regrets, but I will be looking up from below.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am here because this is part of how I medicate my angst from continually making stupid choices.

This is going to impact my kids no matter what. No way to insulate them. No one said anything about insulting them and you are deflecting from the real problem -- how to tell them the truth AND teach them what they see/hear is not healthy. You are one smart person Hold...law school is not easy and it takes a bright and quick person to make it through AND make a living at it...so I know exactly what you are doing when you start making statements like this one. I am aiming for "by the time you guys divorced, we wished you had done it sooner" Wow, that's setting the bar a little low don't you think? . From what I have read of the studies of divorce and children, that tends to produce marginally better outcomes than the kids who wished their parents had stayed together. From the studies you read, what was the median age of the children involved? As you know, there are many studies and to rely on a study that encompasses children of younger/tender years vs. those that are older would be meaningless to support your argument of withholding the truth from them. Still, it is a crap shoot no matter what you do. No it's not and you know it isn't. No way to predict how divorce will impact any particular child. This is what I call talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to rely on this so you don't have to be truthful with your children. Yet all the while you keep insinuating and stating that you know how staying together will be most beneficial to your kids. Have you asked them? Have you been truthful with them? Have you explained anything to them?

Look, in a tiny corner of me I still hold out hope that Mrs. Hold and I will reconnect. Finally a little truth comes through as to why you still post here. Nothing bad happened by stating that truth did it Hold? Did your world fall apart? Did the internet crash? I am not willing to make any effort in that direction today. More of the "give me what I want, but don't expect me to do a darn thing about it -- it's your turn to make me into a better person. But maybe tomorrow I will be. There is no tomorrow...at least in my world, God didn't call me up and tell me I was guaranteed a tomorrow...did He for you? Every year my sex drive declines. Welcome to reality. Maybe at some point it will fall so low that I stop wanting sex. Your resentment isn't solely about sex, but that's all you want to focus on and hold against Mrs. Hold because you know it's the one thing that she has the toughest time providing. There's plenty more that could be worked on even without getting sex. Plenty more that should be worked on. Maybe then I will be able to let go of the resentment. No, you hold onto it like a security blanket. Getting sex will not "make" you let go of resentment. Who knows. You do.

If I were forced to make a move today, it would be to Plan D. Hence I refuse to move off the fence. Maybe some day I will choose to Plan A again. Maybe some day when the kids are closer to leaving I will be willing to have an honest talk with Mrs. Hold about what it would take for me to re-engage. For now, I do not feel safe entering into negotiations because I am unwilling to walk away. Very narrow minded way of thinking isn't it? There's lots of other things to do besides walk away and you know many of them -- yet you continue to choose only Plan D as your option because it allows you to stay in your coccoon and not do something to improve yourself and your marriage. I need to be wiling to leave. Why? Otherwise my negotiating position is fatally compromised. No it isn't. You may be a tax attorney, but you know there's more than one solution to every negotiation. And just because you may not get everything you want in a negotiation, it in no way fatally compromises your position.

Hopefully, she will put up with my withdrawal until then. Put your fate into her hands again huh? If not, I will probably regret not doing more at this time. Then again, I have so many regrets I may not even notice another. Time to stop the self-pity, don't you think?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 05:11 PM
Diamonds:

I am not staying for the kids. I am staying for me. So that I get to be with them.

I know myself. If we divorce, I will not be as available. I am too weak to continually pick them up from activities and drop them off at their mother's home. Especially if she is not alone there.

To the extent I am lying about the impact on them, it is to justify that it is OK for me to stay married to their mother. Because that is what I want FOR ME. I am not saying it is clearly better for them. I am justifying doing what I want. With the idea that it is not more likely to harm them than is divorce. Which, given the evidence in both directions, is probably true.

Especially given their mother's historic irresponsible behavior. And mine. I predict our divorce would be a train wreck if we do it while the kids are still home. Yes, mature adults should be able to achieve a different result. But we are dealing with me and Mrs. Hold here. I don't think I am wrong to predict that an amicable divorce is unlikely.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 05:41 PM
Quote
I don't think anyone has to worry that I will look down from Heaven with regret or that God is celebrating anything about me. I may have regrets, but I will be looking up from below.

Hold! You do not get to say this!

You are not God, and you do not get to decide who gets to go to Heaven--even when thinking of yourself.

For goodness' sake! Isn't it enough that you've doomed yourself to be miserable in this life. Do you have to live with the belief that you are going to be miserable in the next?

I'm glad God isn't as harsh and judgmental towards us as we are towards ourselves...

(((Hold)))
Posted By: mnguy1200 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 06:36 PM
Hold,

I want to tell you something I did that helped me. Having issues with my marriage, unable to sleep and had the same feelings you did with SF from my wife. Finally one night, after not being able to sleep, prayed.

"God, I dont know what you want me to do. But I need peice and comfort in mylife and I'm tired of trying to control this out come on my own, I am giving my slef to you, I am yours, do with me what you will."

After this prayer I was able to sleep, I was able to have this weight lifted off me. I was able to look at my wife with a difference tone then I had before. I would never have thought this would have worked, but it did.

Now, are we have Sex like rabbits? No, but we are a lot better, she is more open to my advances and treating me kinder.

I just wished I would have asked for help much earlier. Give it a try, you have nothing to lose.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 10:51 PM
So wierd to be loved but not feel loved. I could give Mrs. Hold the "ILYBNILWY" speech. Even though I am not having an affair. Then I realized. I am in love with my resentment. In love with my bitterness and frustration. Hence my heart is walled off from Mrs. Hold. Maybe that is why I keep coming here to declare my love of resentment. Maybe I am "exposing" myself.

I went to morning prayers today. I try to go one weekday morning every week. I have become a "regular" and get smiles and warm words from the others. Thanks to mnguy, I now have something new to pray for during the silent prayer.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 11:25 PM
Hold you could tell her why argue over SF for 10 minutes,a half hour to a hour, over something thats only going to take a few minutes!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 01:02 AM
We no longer argue over sex. No point. Spent 8 years arguing and produced no results other than to drive myself even more crazy. So I stopped fighting. And settled into seething resentment.

This is the dilemma and the corner I have painted myself into. I am not looking for sex. Yes, I am going to resent her for the lack of sex. But I am not going to ask for sex. Or negotiate for more sex.

I don't feel it is appropriate for me to ask her for sex. She is a rape victim. I am compounding her trauma by pressuring her for sex. She has to want it. For herself. She has to want to deal with the issues. Overcome her demons. Otherwise I am just as much of a jerk as the guys who raped her.

Yet how can I ask her to deal with her issued when I refuse to deal with mine? So we both just sit in our corners. Making no progress. Wondering why we are both so miserable. Well, I don't wonder. I know why I am miserable. What I don't know is what it will take for me to do something about it.
Posted By: mamma23 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 04:24 AM
Hi again Hold (my previous username is sexyat35).

You are a good lawyer Hold - and you're good at crafting arguments on this forum too. Anything anyone throws at you, you will counter. Heck sometimes, we're confused about what you need anymore!. Problem though is that your marriage is not a court of law. You don't need to win arguments there or here on these boards Hold.

And yes, we all know you love to hold on to your resentment, hold grudges, dish out passive-aggressive blows to your wife because you get a pay-off from seeing her squirm, suffer,etc. We get it. You admit to everyone that you are cruel and that you like to be cruel, both to yourself and Mrs. Hold.

So your wife still refuses SF with you? Good. IMPO, as long as you think you're entitled to it, I hope she continues to refuse. You need to change. Period.

I know I sound terrible, but the quicker your marriage goes down hill, the closer to happiness you will both be. Why do you wish for your marriage to rot - with both of you in it. How cruel Hold.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 12:16 PM
Hold...I don't know much about divorce, but you certainly would, being a lawyer and all...would your wife be able to divorce you without your consent and force you out of the house?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by mamma23
So your wife still refuses SF with you? Good. IMPO, as long as you think you're entitled to it, I hope she continues to refuse.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Given how I feel about her, it would be wrong for her to have sex with me.

And yes, I see the irony. What she needed from me earlier in our marriage was to remove the pressure for sex. Out of love. To give her time and space to heal. And to show her that I loved her regardless.

Now I have reached the place I needed to reach. No asking for sex. No expecting sex. Only one problem. I am not offering that out of love. I am offering it out of anger and frustration and resentment. And while I have removed the overt pressure for sex, I have also removed the caring and the concern and the love.

We might have thought that I have accomplished the hard part. Removing my expectations of sex. And that, having gotten here, it would be easy to offer the love part. But it isn't. I feel like a wimpy doormat if I offer her loving gestures. Such a shame. So close. And yet so far.

Quote
You need to change. Period.

Agreed.

Quote
I know I sound terrible, but the quicker your marriage goes down hill, the closer to happiness you will both be. Why do you wish for your marriage to rot - with both of you in it. How cruel Hold.

Does not sound terrible. Sounds accurate. I was planning on posting something along these lines today. Was thinking on the drive to work how stupid I am being. Thank you for beating me to it.

Mrs. Hold looked at me very lovingly as I walked out the door to work today. I realized what a tragedy it is that I cannot get over my resentment and bitterness. Then again, the loving looks partly come from newfound respect that I can "resist her charms". So far I have not found a way to resist her OTHER than through resentment and bitterness.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Hold...I don't know much about divorce, but you certainly would, being a lawyer and all...would your wife be able to divorce you without your consent and force you out of the house?

Yes, quite possibly. She can definitely divorce me unilaterally. Takes more time. But available. Getting me out of the house would also take time. But also doable. Especially if she alleges domestic violence. Gets a TRO. Forces me out of the house. Even if the TRO is later lifted, hard to get back in.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:00 PM
Confusing - she can divorce you without your signature? And she can force you out of the house if your name is on the deed?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:07 PM
Hold, sometimes I think we're on opposite sides of the same coin. Not about the SF, but about the anger and resentment.

I'm holding on to so much of it, that even if H capitulated, agreed to talk to Steve and tried to make a go of improving our marriage... well, I'm not sure I'm even interested anymore.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Confusing - she can divorce you without your signature? And she can force you out of the house if your name is on the deed?

She can file for divorce by herself. That gets the process started. Eventually they will serve me with the papers. And eventually the judge will grant her divorce even if I object. That is the whole point of "no-fault" divorce. She doesn't have to prove I did anything wrong to divorce me. She just has to keep saying "I no longer want to be married to him" often enough over a long enough period of time, and the judge will grant her request even if I prefer to remain married to her.

As for the house, doesn't matter whose name is on the deed. It is marital property. It will be divided up as part of the divorce. If the judge gives her the house, she gets the house.

Now, that is oversimplified and there can be details that would make it more or less likely depending on the facts of a particular case. But in this case. Where we bought the house while we were married. With down payment funds that came from a joint account. And have been paying the mortgage with money I earned during the marriage. Then the house will almost certainly be seen as marital property subject to equitable distribution. Even though only my name is on the deed (done not to prevent her from owning a share of the home, but to hide her from the guy who was stalking her at the time we bought this house). And even though the down payment on our first house came entirely from money I earned before we got married, and that was more money than we put down on this house.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:12 PM
Thanks for explaining.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 07:41 PM
Hold you are expecting sex from your wife thats why you are doing the drive by with your conversations with your wife,thats why you post here time again and again about sex. If you was not expecting or wanting sex it would not be a issue for you. Its kind of like someone living on welfare that wants to live in a fancy house but does not want to do anything to achieve it. A little less talk and alot more action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:03 PM
No, I am not expecting sex. I am expecting to stay married to her without sex. Which I hate. So I post here to deal with the reality that I am choosing to remain in an unpleasant situation. I strive to achieve acceptance, which eludes me. I am making the choice to stay despite the drawbacks. But I am not choosing to make the best of the situation.

I post here because I am not pursuing happiness. I am not working toward a positive goal. I am working to maintain a bad situation out of fear the alternative might be worse. I am staying to maintain contact with my children because I fear I would choose to withdraw from them upon divorce. I am staying to prevent particular kinds of harmful experiences to my daughter (while recognizing that the example we are setting is a poor one). And I am staying to prevent the outcome that divorce would result in Mrs. Hold being happy and me being miserable.

That is my essential dilemma. I am not trying to achieve happiness for myself. Hence no actions will avail me. Some here may think that seeking happiness would motivate me to reconnect with Mrs. Hold. But instead it would motivate me to leave her. Of course, that is based on my view of the situation and the odds of various outcomes. Which, given what a messed-up nut-case I am, is probably quite warped.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I hope you all choose actions that pursue happiness for yourselves, your families, and your communities.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:18 PM
OK, but I dont think that many of the posters see it that way.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:40 PM
If the majority of posters here get the impression that I am actively pursuing happiness in my life, then I am doing a very poor job of expressing myself. Or maybe it is just that my fear of saying the truth clearly and concisely (because it would be twisted and used against me during a divorce proceeding) obscures my underlying message.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:08 PM
It is very, very hard, in a limited medium like this, to truly be able to walk in another's shoes. It's hard to completely understand the dynamic and context of that other person's life. We have our own filters and perceptions colored by our own experience. That being said, I understand completely Hold's dynamic because I've been there at one time in my life.

I'll repeat that the past is dead. We can extract value from the past in what was good and what we would want to avoid in the future. Other than that, no debts from the past can ever be repaid in full. Therefore, harboring resentments is self-defeating and dysfunctional and serves no purpose to deliver you from yourself or the unhappy world you've constructed for yourself. One thing I learned from my divorce that the very reason we are here right now is solely by our personal choice and often we choose unwisely. Your fate is your personal choice. You picked a non-complimentary partner, again your choice, and unwise it appears. You can continue to choose unwisely for yourself and this is in turn reflected in your wife choices and the choices made by your children. You'll leave them a legacy of unwise choices as their life-template and they will in turn execute unwise choices based upon the paradigm you've established for them in the practice of your life. Your all in a negative-feedback loop and until you embrace the thought that repeating the same processes and expecting a different result is highly non-production, the negative-feedback loop will remain in place.

I understand you all to well and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will take a total disruption of your life to effect any possibility of positive change. Your fear will make you risk-adverse to that level of change. It was enormously painful for me to undergo that process but it saved my life. It boils down to whether or not you want to live your life. Again, your personal choice.

Free will cuts both ways.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:10 PM
It's a matter of personal choice (shrugging). You aren't the only one posting here, I'm sure, who is choosing to stay in an arrangement that feels so unhealthy.

Frankly, I would pursue other interests while you wait this out, and I think I mentioned these before: Getting the credit cards paid off, staying in good physical health, pursuing your career, and being a model dad. Pretend she's your housekeeper or your sister. (shrugging again)

The thing I wonder, though, is whether your mindset will change to that of leaving after your children are raised and off to college. I suspect you'll stay then...because you won't want to share with or expose your grandchildren to another man either.

I'd feel sorry for you, Hold, but you're a grown man and how you spend the rest of your life is entirely up to you.

Personally, I think your wife deserves to know everything that's going on in your head that effects the marriage, but then again - that could be dangerous, because then she might take you seriously and start changing.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by booka
I understand you all to well and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will take a total disruption of your life to effect any possibility of positive change. Your fear will make you risk-adverse to that level of change.

Correct. You do understand me.

Quote
It boils down to whether or not you want to live your life.

Nope. Life is too scary. I prefer to be anesthetized.

Soolee

I wish your wife knew what you thought, maybe she would change.

Several years ago we had a frequent poster who went to counselling with his wife. Eventually she realized he was serious about not wanting to continue the game playing. I can remember what he said happened next:

I say the light bulb go on in her head. And then she took off so far and so fast, I haven't heard from her since.

I am sure Mrs. Hold would change her behavior if she knew how I felt. She would run so far and so fast I would never catch up to her.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:51 PM
Holding,

I hear you about the fear of withdrawing from your kids if divorce were to happen. I fear the same thing, and that is why I will bare this out until they are out of the house.

Have a good thanks giving.
Posted By: mamma23 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
That is my essential dilemma. I am not trying to achieve happiness for myself.

How come?

Hold, I want to apologize for my unkind post yesterday.Of course I do not wish your marriage to go down-hill faster. You have enough problems and you certainly don't need me bashing you on an internet forum. It's just that we are all finding it very difficult to accept your decision, which is "I know I can - but I will not help myself".
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:38 AM
Hold, I haven't given up on you either. It takes what it takes. I'm grateful y'all didn't give up on me when I went through a stubborn period.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:46 AM
I am sure Mrs. Hold would change her behavior if she knew how I felt. She would run so far and so fast I would never catch up to her.

I am surprised and disappointed that you have such little faith in your ability to get your point across in such a way that wouldn't alienate her. Given your vocation and all the time you've spent here, you've surely learned enough skills to do this effectively? What makes you so sure of your proposed outcome? When did you acquire the ability to read her mind?

Hold...let me ask this too...If you could erase the past and all the hard feelings - and if you were a stranger to your wife and you just met, would you consider yourself worthy to be her husband? Would YOU want to be married to you?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
if you were a stranger to your wife and you just met, would you consider yourself worthy to be her husband? Would YOU want to be married to you?

No, not at this point. Being married to someone who isn't even trying to be happy must be awful.

Had a very interesting weekend psych-wise.

Saturday morning the kids were out and Mrs. Hold and I talked briefly at the kitchen table. I said "to me, there are 2 possibilities. Either you never found me at all attractive but you tolerated me for the money and parenting. That is a soul deadening level of rejection. Or you have issues from the rapes which remain unresolved. I can understand not wanting to deal with them. I have issues I am not dealing with, either. But if you don't, I see no chance for us reconnecting." She said "I have put the rapes behind me. I wanted you back with me even though it would have been easy to just let you stay in the living room. I love you." Then she hugged me.

I realize that was huge on her part. I am so dead inside, I felt nothing.

Saturday night was my 30th high school reunion. I made the 2.5 hour drive to attend. Saw some people I have not seen in ages. The good news is that it confirmed my memory - I was not really friends with anyone. Which in a wierd way felt good. These days I frequently question my grasp on objective reality. I wonder whether perhaps my perceptions are false and reality was different than I remember. But in this case I was right. There wasn't anyone who had stories to tell of our time together in high school. Even the kid who lived down the block and our families took turns making lunch during elementary school (we were "walkers" who went home for lunch) didn't have much to say about me. Except to confirm to a gal who thought she was the biggest nerd in our class "no, Hold was". And this guy teaches high school math, so from him it is high praise!

I am glad I went. Would have been easy to give in to my fear and stay home and "hide". It was not painful. Even being snubbed by some people I went to elementary school with was not bad (although perhaps that is evidence of how depressed I am). And although I am far from handsome, it was good to see how old some of the guys looked. I don't have a huge gut and still have most of my hair so I didn't look that bad.

Sunday morning we got up early and Mrs. Hold "debriefed" me about the reunion. Then she stroked me all over and we had sex. Miserable failure on my part despite the Viagra, but that is what I have come to expect so by now it is probably a self-fulfilling prophesy.

You know how sometimes you perceive something not by its presence but by its absence? That was this weekend. I realize how depressed I am by the absence of feelings.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:16 PM
I said "to me, there are 2 possibilities. Either you never found me at all attractive but you tolerated me for the money and parenting. That is a soul deadening level of rejection. Or you have issues from the rapes which remain unresolved. I can understand not wanting to deal with them. I have issues I am not dealing with, either. But if you don't, I see no chance for us reconnecting." She said "I have put the rapes behind me. I wanted you back with me even though it would have been easy to just let you stay in the living room. I love you." Then she hugged me.

Hold, I'd just like to congratulate you for having this conversation with her. I think it was very important. I'd like to challenge you to take this another step further and ask her how you can know she is past the rapes and that perhaps counseling for her may help you move beyond it? Perhaps suggest that as a couple both of you need to move beyond the rapes and POJA on how to accomplish that.

I think when a person is raped, the rape doesn't just happen to the direct victim, but also to those who love and care about that person. I think your focus on the rapes suggests that you do love and care for her.

I can relate on the reunion thing. I'm 46 and haven't been to one yet. Was thinking the other day how I sort of snubbed someone I went to school with because she wouldn't have anything to do with me in high school and then suddenly when we have kids the same age, we're supposed to be friends. I just didn't have it in me. I have enough friends, you know?

Also can relate on perhaps aging a bit better than some. It's a good feeling.

Hold, can you understand that even if your wife wasn't raped, even if that wasn't part of the issue here, trying to reconnect with you in this state would be difficult for her? We can sit back and say that your state is due to her, but where does your own responsibility fall in this? Hold...how do you feel about going on an AD for a while? Possibly getting some more counseling? No offense intended. Do you think it may benefit you to go perhaps once every month until you are in a better position to decide your future for sure.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:38 PM
Soolee very interesting post!! many thoughts come to my mind about Mr.and Mrs Hold just wondering if Mrs.hold has been connected all this time but withdrew into spending and from sex because thats the only way she could get any attention from Mr.Hold. She saw Mr. hold being a good parent and she tried by going over board with gifts and extra spending thinking that was her way of being a good parent to their children and Mr. Hold loves his children. After readying that post about the reunion just wondering abou Mr. Holds peception in and about life in general. Maybe some anti-dep meds might do the trick. I am on a mild one and it really does help. Hold I think there is more love in both of you than you are able to reconise!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
I have enough friends, you know?

No, I don't know. But I'll take your word on it. stickout

Quote
trying to reconnect with you in this state would be difficult for her?

Not difficult. Impossible. I am not open to her reconnecting.

Quote
We can sit back and say that your state is due to her, but where does your own responsibility fall in this?

My state is not due to her. It predates meeting her by decades. Marrying her just reinforced all my bad tendencies.

Quote
Hold...how do you feel about going on an AD for a while? Possibly getting some more counseling? No offense intended. Do you think it may benefit you to go perhaps once every month until you are in a better position to decide your future for sure.

No offense taken. Been in counseling before. Been on AD meds before. Doubt going back would benefit me. But probably worth getting my files from the various docs so I can recreate the history of what I tried before.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by dsd
just wondering if Mrs.hold has been connected all this time but withdrew into spending and from sex because thats the only way she could get any attention from Mr.Hold.

Nope. She withdrew from sex back when I spent every waking moment outside work kissing her butt. We spent every minute of every night and weekend together. She was never connected once I slid the ring on her finger.

But that is beside the point. As many here have said, at this point the focus should be on me and my life and the problems inside my head and not on Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:50 PM
Hold i would urge you to see a doc. there a many meds that might be able to help you and they all work different for different people. Just because you did nt seem to think it helped before does nt mean it wont help now!!! Just give it a chance and maybe everybody will be glad you did.This has got to be affecting them.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 06:21 PM
Hi Hold.

So I read your "either/or" statement. And, of course, I certainly am of the opinion that your wife's history of sexual abuse affects your sexual relationship today...

I often think in the same way of my husband's disinterest... Either he's simply not attracted to the real-life me (and only was in the early months when it was new), or he doesn't really love me, or living with a violent brother made his guard so thick that it's hard to be vulnerable with sex.

HOWEVER...

It is possible that none of our conclusions are correct... And then what do we do? What if our spouses are simply not really interested in sex? What if it actually has NOTHING TO DO WITH US?! What if it's nothing that can ever be fixed?! What if they really and truly do love us, and are as healthy as they can be--only they do not really care to have sex?

I think that is a far scarier reality to live with. I mean, if it's because of how I look, or something that I'm doing, at least there is a chance that one day, our sex life will improve. If there's something wrong with him, well, there is also a chance that one day he will find peace/healing and be more free to explore a positive sex life.

But if he is simply not interested. I mean, if this is all he's got, and I have no carrot big enough to dangle to interest him in engaging in SF... then what do we do?

That's more painful than whether or not she is rejecting you. SHe is NOT rejecting you, Hold. She knows you want sex, but she simply cannot compute how deeply her disinterest hurts you. She can't relate, because she does not think that way, feel that way, and even if you can communicate in a way so that she DOES understand, she will probably never change.

She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!

I do love my husband. But sometimes I hate him. And sometimes I deeply resent that I am in this kind of marriage--one where an important EN and aspect of our relationship is never going to be fulfilled. One that I was so looking forward to for so long.

However, you and I have a choice, my friend. And it isn't about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It's getting to the point where our life is full enough and happy enough so that we can live well without SF--at least until you (we?) have ended our marriages.

Does this make sense? I think I'm rambling. ANd daughter's bus will be here in a few minutes.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:05 PM
Telly:

Excellent point. I have spent enormous time on another discussion board (that Stella / Baba pointed me to years ago) exploring those issues.

I think it is possible for some people to love intensely but not have much interest in sex. Many people are like that. There is nothing wrong with them. They do not have a "defect" that has to be "cured". They are just different than those of us who desire sex intensely. And it is just as likely that those of us who desire sex intensely have a "defect" that needs to be "cured" (such as low self esteem or depression that we are trying to medicate through sex / orgasms).

As Starfish has pointed out here several times, many people desire sex intensely during the early stages of a relationship while PEA is coursing through their brains. Later, when the PEA is replaced by oxytocin (as occurs naturally in most humans during long term relationships), those people stop desiring sex so intensely. Those people do not consciously pull a "bait and switch". They truly want sex at the beginning and they do not consciously choose to stop wanting sex later. But the change (albeit natural) can cause tremendous pain even if both people understand the mechanism.

There are not always pleasant solutions to a large and persistent mismatch in libido. It can and often does destroy relationships. Doesn't have to. But needs to be handled with grace. Which people involved in mismatches often find difficult to offer each other.

My relationship problems are no longer about sex, although that continues to be a problem in our relationship. My life problem is no longer about my relationship, although that continues to be a problem as well.

My problem is that I am so depressed I don't even want to seek help to stop being depressed. I have accepted that I am going to be unhappy for the rest of my life and am not motivated to do anything to change my trajectory. That problem has is not Mrs. Hold's fault. It is on me. And she can't solve it. Only I can.

But first I have to want to solve it.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:19 PM
I don't know, Hold.

If you can force yourself to turn off the alarm, take a shower, dress, eat, and go to work everyday...then I think you can force yourself to gather your lab results and medical information and make an appointment.

Don't worry about feeling the urge to seek help. I am sure there are plenty of days you don't feel the urge to go to work either. You just do it because you have to.

It occurred to me that the holidays are here, and there are many people who become depressed during those weeks. Could be that for someone who is mildly depressed, the sitch can become even worse.

I know for me, the holidays are always stressful - Could this be compounding your depression as well?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:42 PM
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.

If that thing that you need,, (which most married people need and expect) is SEX, then whatever they believe about it or whatever they hate about it, they must find a way to meet YOUR sexual needs. If they love you they will pleasure you, learn to pleasure you, take care of you in the sex department, and set aside what they want or do not want.

In addition, I know that a grown man who wants or has very little sex MUST KNOW HE IS NOT THE NORM> He must know from teaching marriage classes, or how other men talk about sex....or from being in the WORLD, that HE IS ABNORMAL for wanting sex only once every few years. He has to know this. If he does not know how abnormal he is then he is crazy.

So, this man, who is outside the norm, also HAS TO KNOW THAT HIS WIFE HAS NORMAL MARITAL SEXUAL NEEDS. He has to know it and he HAS TO ACTIVELY IGNORE HER in order to justify his extreme sexual neglect.

Our solution was this. My husband asks to make love whenever he wants "it" (and since we talked about having differing desires) then, he told me to ask WHENEVER I want sex and he will honor my request and respect and love me by giving me the pleasure and physical closeness I want right when I ask or very soon after, like the same day I ask.

I have learned new ways of asking for sex that allow some flexibility:

1. Honey how bout some loving? Tonight or tomorrow morning (gives him a choice)
2. Lets go upstairs and cuddle (can lead to sex or the cuddling is nice too)
3. Want some sex tomorrow morning? (specific time is good sometimes)
4. Feel like some sex? (now)
5. Feel like some sex? (now but could agree to postpone it)
6. We get to bed and sometimes we choose what we want to do there.

There are so many ways to ask for sex, also some non verbal ways. Once you start getting regular sex again, you can relax the schedule and rules and allow flexibility. Getting used to asking for sex is half of it. Having a loving spouse is the main thing.

It is only fair if one partner wants a huge plate of food and the other partner only wants a tiny plate of food, that both get to eat whatever they want. If one wants to paint the room blue and the other one wants to paint it red, then a compromise is in order.

Yet, sex is not food, sex is way more important than who paints what.... a certain color....and it takes a LOVING spouse to help the other spouse have the sex they want. So, both spouses have to determine what is going on and work together to solve the problem.

1. Both spouses, the High libido and Low libido spouse, must sit down and figure out exactly what is happening or not happening in the sexual area.

2. Then, both must tell the other one thier needs.

3. Then, both must sit down and honor the other one's needs

4. Then, a schedule must be worked out or another solution derived in order to meet BOTH PEOPLE"S NEEDS.

5. If one partner is asexual, this can be dealt with but must be faced.

6. IF both people do not face this issue, it will never get better.

7. These steps HAVE TO BE CONTINUED until the PROBLEM IS SOLVED OR A WORKOUT IS COMPLETED.


Can you, will you, be brave and persisitant enough to face this issue head on? Or will you continue to back down and live with constant sexual neglect?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:50 PM
Bubbles:

As always, thank you for the love and for the fire and outrage on my behalf that I find difficult to summon within myself.

Mrs. Hold and I are way beyond where sex is the issue we need to address first. At this point, her offering more sex would be counter-productive. I would not be able to accept her offer as a loving gesture. I cannot achieve or maintain erections, even with viagra. So I now view sex as a negative experience. I need to heal myself before we can heal the sex problem between us.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:55 PM
HOLD this is what we see on the other board. One persons sexual dysfunction is like a bad disease that spreads to the other, previously healthy spouse.

You need to get away from her. She is so bad for you. Being with that user has ruined your already shakey self esteem. Staying with her continues the ruination of it.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:56 PM
Hold, I forget. Does MrsHold know about MB? Is she aware of LBs and ENs? If so, have you ever described to her how she could change so that it would build up your love bank again? As in stop LBing you and meet your ENs? Is she aware that you have stopped loving her and that she could possibly reverse that?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:04 PM
Cat, she was on MB for a while, the coldest poster who was ever here. Also, she has had 12 years counseling about 4 were MB based. She responded to NONE of it. She is one cold woman.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:05 PM
I wish there was some way to REACH the MRS.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:18 PM
I'm only asking because NOW, when Hold is finally being honest with her about leaving her, she is finally saying and doing things that five years ago may have touched him. Tells me that just maybe she really loves and wants him enough to be ready to stop being so spoiled and selfish. Just maybe.

But if he doesn't point out HOW she could change, she might never know what to do. We've all seen people here ready to leave, dead to their spouse, and the spouse changes things up, and the poster is astounded to find out his/her love really was still there, just buried under a lifetime of hurt.

Can't hurt to tell her such things. Even if today he doesn't want her back any more.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:29 PM
These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:36 PM
Oh hold.

You have to get some help.

I have been reading/posting to you now for 9 years. You matter to me (and many others here--and undoubtedly in real life).

Have you ever watched the movie "The Game" with Micheal Douglas? It's a really good movie. I think you should watch it.

(((((Hold))))))
Please get help, dear hold.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:43 PM
Hold, you might have missed my last post. Could you respond please? Thanks.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
If you can force yourself to turn off the alarm, take a shower, dress, eat, and go to work everyday...then I think you can force yourself to gather your lab results and medical information and make an appointment.

Nope. It is about perceived psychological cost, not energy required.

If what you posted were true, then we could tell all the lower libido spouses at MB "if you can force yourself to do the laundry or yard work, then you can take half the time to have sex with your spouse." Doesn't work that way.

Quote
It occurred to me that the holidays are here, and there are many people who become depressed during those weeks. Could be that for someone who is mildly depressed, the sitch can become even worse. I know for me, the holidays are always stressful - Could this be compounding your depression as well?

Yes, seasonal depression tends to occur this time of year. Affects many people. Sorryt o hear it affects you.

Not my issue. I don't get depressed because it is dark. Or because of the holidays. I am depressed because the last "milestone" between now and high school graduation has passed. And I realize where my plans have me headed. And I don't want to go there. But I don't want to change course, either.

Depression is rejection of responsibility. I don't have the guts to take charge of my life. Or to own up to my responsibilities. So I go numb. And refuse to admit they matter. But they do. No matter how firmly I push my fingers into my ears.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:19 PM
Hold,

Who says I am talking about physical energy required? Actually, I was talking about the emotional energy.

You go to work for your family - so that you can provide for them, right? Why would you not see a doctor so that you can be a more productive member of the family and a better father? (shrugging here and not seeing much of a difference).

You're a bit off on the milestone thing - you skipped over first dates, driving, and prom. Anyway...doesn't look to me like I'm helping much here.

I do think you should find someone who will work with you to find the type of medication that will work for your body, and I think you would do well to find an individual counselor. I'm not a professional, but some of the things you've said make me think there could be more to this than mild depression.

Does depression run in your family? Wouldn't you like to get this straightened out in case it does and in case your children may be predisposed? You obviously love them and are concerned about them. Why show love and concern with some issues and not with others?
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:23 PM
I think you need some friends.

I know that requires "work". But my gosh, hold. You are funny, interesting, smart, charming--and you even have a lot of "pluck" regarding certain things (remember the walk in women's shoes?).

You deserve to laugh, and be lighthearted sometimes. To be celebrated and enjoyed by friends, and with friends.

I think that would be the best kind of help you could get.

Does it matter that people here care about you? :-(

I wish I could do something for you.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:39 PM
Hold,

Man we're in the same boat. I feel for you and I can relate to even not wanting SF at times and I'm getting to the point that I am having a harder and harder time getting... well hard.

Yes, too little too late.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:40 PM
Hold,

You nailed your depression really well...disowning yourself. Gotta hurt...cause a lot of anger at the injustice you do to yourself...and self is gonna hurt until it's numb of hurting.

You know this.

Would you act for your own benefit if forced to?

Someone did this for me...radical honesty...when a relative turned to my DH and said, "Are you going to divorce her? Aren't you miserable with her depression?" Then she turned to me and said, "Snap out of it."

I did...I used the fake it til ya make it way of acting and having new feelings follow....because what followed her asking my DH if he were going to divorce me due to misery...really shocked me.

You might get your wish fulfillment...that horrible false payoff you're gunning for...where Mrs Hold decides to divorce you, accept a much lower lifestyle, because your misery cuts her to the bone...which would make you right, wouldn't it?

In a way, don't you hate her loving you, instead of hating you like you hate yourself? She can't even do that for you, can she? You may long for feeling very loved and very comfortable being despised...which is why it's a choice.

Your loving feelings follow your own loving actions. You went to the reunion and validated you weren't nuts...and you matched your self-image with other images and came home to the one woman in the world who knows you all over...all your parts...and she embraced you, listened to you "share" (not debrief) and made love to the real you...

No wonder you don't feel anything...you didn't act and have the feelings follow. You expected them from the outside, again, and they didn't come in.

What if now, Hold, you can look again at all that rejection you saw as coming in from the outside...and see it wasn't...might make you mistaken...and end up being loved, anyway.

Because you are, have been and will be. Get out of your own way. Ask Mrs Hold to HELP you...tell her you've self-injured too long to do it for you...ask her to get you to where you need to be...to take charge, because you're sick of depression...

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:58 PM
I agree that Hold has many qualities that draw us back over and over again. He writes well, describes himself and his situation in a way that is easily comprehended too. Journaling may be a good outlet for someone with such skills.

I also think that despite the things Mrs. Hold may or may not have done to affect Hold's feelings, he still has a responsibility to protect his family from the depression. I don't see that.

Maybe I don't understand depression well enough. That could be it. All I know is that he's perfectly capable of articulating his feelings here, not all without humor. He's a functional human being and father, holding a job, going to Temple, involved in outside activities, etc. etc.

What this seems to boil down to, despite what Hold is saying, is that he's very angry - so angry that it has had a strangle hold on his heart and has cut off the circulation to his feelings. He's coming across at this point as apathetic, but his heart is actually in a state of torsion. jmho.

Hold...if you won't see anyone for ADs, how do you feel about starting to train again for something - getting some real physical exercise - the kind that makes the sweat run in rivulets, and maybe some good Hatha yoga to give it balance? Also, what about foods that help combat depression? Ever look into that?

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 11:30 PM
Hold, what do you think about the idea that your issues now could be related to getting desensitized by too much stimulation in the recent past? Like SW's H, pushing her for more and more "out there" stuff because of his choice of solo activity made the stuff that they were doing not enough anymore?
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 11:33 PM
and or maybe you need a higher dose of viagra. Get some things a working for you and the others may fall into place a little easier.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 06:13 AM
Soolee, I don't mean to chase you away with my eeyore attitude. Then again I don't intend many of the negative consequences my behavior generates.

The reason I am not motivated to get help for my depression is that I have done so many times over the decades and it has made little or no difference. At this point depression has overtaken my motivation to seek help. I am not a try try again fellow. I follow the W C Fields version "if at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a darned fool about it." Was on a poster in my parents' basement for many years.

I do need to get back to the gym. Been intending to for several weeks. Maybe next week. I think the lack of exercise this year may be contributing to my ED problems.

Thanks for all the encouragement. I don't deserve so much support from so many people here.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 01:36 PM
Hold, my husband is in a similar position. He says he's "done" with the ADs, "done" with the counselors, both individual and marriage. Yet he's still clearly miserable with life. I wish I had a quick-and-easy solution to offer!

Steve Harley is working with me to get H on the phone with him. Not sure what will be accomplished once that goal is attained, but I figure, baby steps. Anyway, Steve's opinion of H's situation--not sure if any of this applies to you--is that he's like a rudderless boat in the water. He lacks the right tools to escape his situation. Perhaps some of that applies to you as well?

In any case, getting back to an exercise program can't hurt anything and will most likely help on some level. That sounds like a great idea.

Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 03:04 PM
Hi dear hold.

So I've been thinking about you... Do you think it's possible that you don't feel anything not because you are so sad and miserable that you've become numb, but because you are actually furious?

I've heard it said that depression is anger turned inward. What if you are so angry that it takes every ounce of energy to keep that anger surpressed?

You really do need to work out. Forget focusing on anything else extra, but get back to working out. Maybe you can take a boxing/kickboxing class--or something that includes releasing explosive bouts of energy... maybe then it would help release some of what you cannot allow yourself to feel right now.

You need a release valve. Get out there and excercise. Punch some bags. Kick some bags. Pound it out.

ANd don't wait until next week. Do it a couple of times before this week is out.

Can you at do that at least?

(((Hold)))
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 04:56 PM
I agree with Telly. If you have not learned to show, feel, or properly express anger it can come out on your inner self and mask as depression or sadness.

HOLD If I were you, married to that woman and what she did and how she neglects you yet demands "everything", I would be sooooooooo terribly angry day and night. Could be part of the sex issues also, who could have sex with a person they were terribly angry at. I have never heard you get angry at your user wife. After all she did, you SHOULD be terribly angry and you SHOULD be venting it out somewhere.

And Telly, the same is true for you. After all your husband did to do, the hyprocacy of his teaching "marriage classes" and the terrible neglect to your needs your emotions, your personhood, your very spirit, and total 100% neglect of your sexual self, I would be TERRIBLY AND DAILY ENRAGED! Constantly angry. And justifiably so!!!!

But instead of feeling that anger, due to what he is doing to you, and the terrible neglect, you have to hide that and gulp down handfuls of antidepressants. Telly how can you stand to walk with your husband down to the store? How can you stand to be in the same house with such a man????? I am so angry for what he did to you. He is ruining your life every single day. You could have married a normal loving, easy going man and had a great life. This man you married is cruel and self centered.

IF BUT I COULD BE ANGRY FOR YOU BOTH SO YOU DID NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LEARNING ALL ABOUT ANGER, HOW TO FEEL YOUR ANGER, HOW TO EXPRESS IT, THAT IT IS A VALID EMOTION LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, ETC, ETC.

Please learn about anger so you do not accidently take that anger out on your precious selves. Learn how to FEEL anger. Learn how to EXPRESS anger. Learn why you are angry. Learn why you have a right to be angry. Please learn that your inner anger is OK.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 06:37 PM
I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.

During marriage counselling, I sometimes expressed my anger. The rest of that session, and frequently the bulk of the next session, was then devoted to my expressions of anger. Not the lack of sex. Not the overspending. My anger. My anger was seen as justification for Mrs. Hold not having sex with me. This occurred with several different MCs over several years. So I learned not to express my anger.

No wonder I am so depressed! Now, what do I do about it? I think Telly's idea of kick boxing is a good start. I think Mrs. Hold has a Tae Bo tape stashed somewhere.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 07:00 PM
Hold -

See if there's a Krav Maga studio anywhere in your area. There was nothing like it for venting my aggression before my knee wouldn't let me do it anymore.

I also have battled depression for a long time, and can relate to many of your statements. I add my voice to the chorus encouraging you to seek help. The new AD's work so much better than what I was on 10 years ago, combined with IC, it's made a world of difference for me and my outlook.

Best of luck to you!
TAC
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 08:04 PM
HOld, let me know how the tae bo thing goes--and then you should check out a real kickboxing class at your gum.

Well, I don't actually take anti-depressants, and I am learning to deal with my anger.

On Sunday, my H and I had an iI did have an interaction that left me very angry. I walked away from the situation, and left him with the girls while I tried to calm down. I journalled, and tried to give voice to the feelings I had inside.

I was getting close, talking about how angry I was, but I couldn't get the anger to ebb. Finally, I tapped into what I really wanted to say in that moment... It was "Ignore this, A-h--e" with a big punch at the end of it.

As I imagined that exchange, the anger actually faded.

I think we have to acknowledge our anger in the deepest, and most REAL place possible. We can't let of our anger unless we give it a voice, a place, and let it breathe. Then it can quiet again.

Anyway, I was able to completely calm down, the anger ebbed, I went back and we worked through the issue.

There are other ways to get it out--that's why I think the kickboxing is a good option.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:08 PM
Telly, I really do agree with you on this. I think that part of Hold's problem is that in the process of keeping his anger under wraps, maybe he never found a healthy way to get rid of it and maybe even thought it wasn't necessary. So he buried it, and it developed into depression.

I think it's important to note that it simply is not enough to hold it in, just because it seems like the easiest and most noble thing to do to avoid outside problems with others. We avoid or eat certain foods to keep our bodies from suffering. Why, then, don't we treat our emotional health with equal care?

Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!

Telly, Hold said this didn't apply to his situation, but I'm SO glad you posted it, because I think it applies to mine. Thank you.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.

Wow, Bubbles, thank you. As I just commented on Telly's post, I really benefitted from what you wrote, even though it was directed to Hold.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.

Hello Hold,

It's been a while since I visited the board, and I see this thread is still quite active.

So, wow, she offered sex -- how often is that?
And you pretty much are not into it with her anymore, I can understand that since you've pretty much convinced yourself you're stuck in a sexless marriage and actually accepting that life for the kids.

As for me, I've been in Hormone Replacement Therapy since my T-levels are quite low. It's helping a bit as far me not being in that depressive mood / mode of thinking.

I just had my doze up'ped yesterday because my last blood test was still low. I've been doing diligent strength building in the gym, but need to do more cardio to lose weight. I actually stopped going to the gym for the past 3 weeks due to flu and upper respiratory infection. So I got my work cut out ahead in this area.

As for sex, the feelings are not as bad as before, and I can handle it fine. I've been doing the No More Mr Nice Guy approach ever since I got a hold of the book.

I've pretty much eliminated my passive-aggressive behaviors. I express how I feel more directly without fear, be that I am sad, angry, or mad.

Good luck and take care of yourself.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 08:17 AM
Sorry, I have nothing helpful to add; just a question:

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.

Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 10:29 AM
Hold...is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?

Just wondering...because here's a counselor who couldn't help you as a couple - Are you so sure that their advice to you as an individual wouldn't be off the mark as well?

Can you recall that conversation? Just wondering.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 02:27 PM
Hold, I want to recommend to you a book.

I don't remember the author, but it's called "I know I'm in there somewhere".

I read it, and it's been really helping me to deal with my anger. It isn't enough just to say in your head "fyb" and to KNOW that you are angry.

Your anger has to have a place. Otherwise, all you are doing is holding back the dam. Sure, you know there is anger behind the dam, and some of it spills over on you--but the energy it takes to hold that dam back can prevent you from having any other emotion.

I would venture that you have anger not just towards your wife, but towards your parents and other situations in your life. It's a lot easier to say "Oh I'm JUST angry at myself and my wife", while holding up the dam.

That isn't enough. You have to let it out. You have to let it have a voice... I don't mean unleashing it on your wife. I mean, letting it have a voice within YOU. Letting it teach you about yourself and your needs...

In any case, the book is really good--it isn't just about anger. It's kind of about finding yourself. It was very helpful for me, and I am still doing some of the things I learned about in there.

Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 04:16 PM
Hi Hold . . . it has been a while.

I don't have a lot to say that you haven�t heard, as we have both been at this for a long time. It does occur to me that perhaps you are reaching a new stage in the marriage . . . indifference.

I see others think you have suppressed anger and you agree to a certain extent: but really, who doesn't have some anger and resentment about their partner, the state of the marriage, where they are in their career, etc. ad nauseam? Anger is just an emotion.

I think indifference may bring you a new perspective. Detachment isn�t a four-letter word. Sometimes it is the smartest way to be. You certainly aren't begging for crumbs as you once were; that is progress of a sort. You aren�t looking to your wife for happiness and that is a good thing. Happiness has to come from an internal source and I can�t tell you how to find it . . . just where not to look. But you really should keep looking. Life is short and none of us are getting any younger. Life doesn�t have to be misery.

If nothing else, I can say that you have endurance . . . you are not a quitter and you know how to suffer. For some reason what pops into mind is something Hermann Hesse wrote in Siddhartha. A merchant asked Siddhartha what is his worth, what he can do? And Siddhartha said �I can think, I can wait, I can fast.� Perhaps that is enough sometimes, just to be able to think and wait. There will be a time for doing. You will know when that time is ripe.


As Always,

Comfortably Numb
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 04:56 PM
Took me nearly 24 hours to figure out what "fyb" means (I think I figured it out)...

was stuck on "for your buttons" for awhile

for your benefit

for your benevolence

I felt really slow and left out...

Then it hit me what it may well mean and I shocked myself.

No biggee...happens a lot.

smile

I think your belief you failed is the core of your anger.

You failed today to change someone else...to change their choices, their past choices, their future choices.

To me, that's an awesome, wonderful thing to fail at...and to realize you failed at it...because it wasn't real to begin with.

You can only fail today...one day at a time. God is looking out for you, insuring you fail at what wasn't within your power to begin with...that's how he doesn't fail you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?

No, and I don't think it would be a good idea to do it even if I could.

I can behave this way because I am sufficiently broken. Have sufficiently low self-esteem. Sufficiently little pride. That I am willing simply to TAKE IT. Even when I know I shouldn't. I can be pleasant because I do not respect myself enough to act upon my anger.

I don't think you want me to teach you how to be this way.

Originally Posted by Soolee
is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?

No, was fairly clear. Message was "we cannot work on her sexual rejection until you stop expressing so much anger." Nothing along the lines of "it is understandable that you may BE angry but you need to learn to express that anger in a more productive manner". None of the MCs turned to Mrs. Hold and said anything like "I know it hurts to have Hold express such anger toward you, but can you understand how much it hurts him when you reject him sexually? Can you understand how hard it is for him to control his anger in the face of continual rejection?" I got the message loud and clear. Do not overtly express any anger toward your wife if you hope to ever have sex again. Back then, I did hope for more sex. So I stopped expressing anger. I didn't stop FEELING the anger. I just stopped expressing it.

Well, except for the one session where the sex therapist asked me if I should rethink my goals in life and stop aiming for sex as an objective. I told her it is my life and I get to pick what I want and what I aim for and what I want is more sex. Her job was to help me get it. If she was not comfortable helping me to have a better sex life with my wife (she was, after all, a licensed AASECT sex therapist), then we were done.

Telly
Thanks for the book suggestion. Sounds like something I should look into.

CN
Thanks for checking in. I think you understand me very well. I am quite good at enduring my self-imposed abuse.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:00 PM
HOLD and Telly, it may help to literally BEND OVER.

When I was getting flack from my abusive boss years ago and some of the other gossipy co workers, I started to become depressed because I needed that job and was losing what little self esteem I had left to leave the bad job and get another better one.

I went home one day and "bent over" and yelled for them to #@$@%me one more time! Then I began yelling, "One more time and I am outta here!" Etc.

I yelled and screamed for a while in my empty house,, and then something changed within me and I was able to hold it together and apply for another job. I got the position (because I ASSUMED the position) and was better off.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:02 PM
Oh.

I thought maybe it was a useful coping skill. I mean, if I *am* saying "IHY IHY IHY" in my mind, as a mantra, I think I *do* need to not have that show on my face.

I've already tried the route of telling him. Didn't work. Now I don't wanna walk around with a snarl on my face every time I look at him.

As a somewhat related skill, it seems some folks have this ability to smile and appear quite nice and pleasant, all the while telling you something you don't want to hear.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:04 PM
Jayne, try smiling and BENDING OVER. Say; "Go ahead and $#%# me AGAIN!!!!!!"
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:16 PM
Jayne,

Is IHY "I hate you"?

If so, that mantra would be a repetitive lie, IMO.

You don't hate him. You hate what he didn't do.

And if that isn't correct, then you hate yourself...for what you didn't do, either.

Could be I'm in acronymic distress. Could be like an Alana Morrisette "IHEE" you mean, instead.

LA
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:19 PM
lol to Bubbles and LA!

LA, you are correct in what IHY means. I think it is a sign of how extremely caring and loving you are, that it took you so long to figure out what FYB meant.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:38 PM
These new acrynoms going to be added to 'The List'?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:52 PM
lol, Lil...

good one.

Jayners...I'm no more caring and loving than you are...

When I promised myself (first, to keep my own darn promises) to get rid of the DJs, that included name-calling...because that's not allowed in my code...not at others and not at myself.

I had the IHY mantra in my head for most of my life...I love myself more for freeing myself from it...I experience my love so much more.

And here I am, wanting that for you, too. 'Cuz I love you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 09:24 PM
LA
I have failed at changing me. And will continue to fail. Until my desire for change outweighs my fear of change.

I understand that God is providing for me. He is giving me ED. So I stop wanting sex. Stop pressuring my wife for sex. So maybe I can focus on something else besides sex. We shall see.

And I realize I only say FYB inside my head to distract myself from my real thought. Which is IHM. And please do not condescend to tell me that is a lie.

Some day, I may choose to forgive myself. And then perhaps IHM will not be true. But for now. It is.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 10:30 PM
:-(

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 01:55 AM
I remember the expression I used to say to myself over and over again in my head, "My life is being run by idiots!" Not even realizing that it was for me to Mind My Own Business, to run my own life, and competently at that. Like Stella switching jobs to one she wanted. Good thing we get do-overs!
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 03:56 PM
Hold, I don't know if I have ever posted to you before. I don't have great vastness of wisdom or anything. But I do feel for you. I have fits and spurts of your same feelings at times, or lack of feeling. I'd give you some of my lithium, but I need it smile

Like I said, I don't have any great comments that you haven't already heard from these people. I just envy your ability to be so honest sometimes. No, my life isn't like yours at this time, but there was a time I thought it was. And I actively tried to give up, not care, so it would quit hurting. I couldn't do it -- the eternal optimist, or more likely just stubborn. Now the areas of my life where I feel like you are not marriage. But I know that it still hurts, so I know you hurt, even if you don't feel it right now.

Anyway, that's enough rambling. I just wanted you to know I care.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 05:16 PM
Hold,

I hear you are hurt when I say I see you lie to yourself and that you don't want me saying that again.

It was figuring out all my lies to myself which enabled me to change...freed me to change my actions, my choices, form my code.

I'm limited to the only way I know.

And the lie is that you failed to change your choices today. That's it. Truly, that is reality. Today is all we have as humans...and no matter how broken, bad or unacceptable you view yourself...I believe we still agree you're human.

When we fail to choose differently, we can experience our lives as consistent failure. Becomes our comfort zone, where we achieve success by failing. You know this. You're choosing your perspective for a reason...please share your intent on continuing to make the same choices, "will continue to fail"...

Do you truly "I hate myself" or do you "I hate my choices"?

IHMC...sounds like a military branch to me.

Btw, I caught myself reactive yesterday at work...and discovered I am still keeping score when I believed I'd laid it down...put it away. Resentment is like a pulse to me. Does that mean I failed? Or failed yesterday to act and not react?

I owned my part and amended. Good to know, though I have definitely changed my choices (hence, changed per your post), I can still make old ones again, even when that's not my intent.

Minding my own business through you, Hold. Just like so many others here at MB, still in your corner, even if at times you may see it as being in the ring with me, instead.

smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 08:32 PM
My intention? To continue to make bad choices to punish myself for my past bad choices. To live with my mental illness, rather than to seek a cure. After all, I think we can agree I must have a mental illness if my intention is to spend the rest of my life punishing myself for being a nerd.

Do I hate me, or hate my choices? I think I truly hate me. I am so ashamed of who I am. Not just the choices. I hate my body. Even though I have been blessed (so far) with relatively good health and functionality my entire life. I focus on what I lack rather than what I have been blessed with. I hate that I am short. I hate that my son is short in large part because of the genes he inherited from me. I hate my face. I hate my private parts. I am a walking bundle of hate. Sometimes I wonder how I even get out of bed in the morning. Then I realize that I get out of bed to go to a job I dislike to punish myself further.

I hate how much I hate myself. I hate that I am not prepared to do anything to change that. And I hate that I am so afraid that I prefer to live in misery rather than doing something to work toward happiness.

Do I hate me? Yes, I honestly believe that I do.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 09:02 PM
I believe you, Hold.

Except for hating how much you hate yourself.

I'm guessing you love hating yourself and believe that you're only hurting yourself with your self-hatred.

Do you think hating/punishment is a motivation tool gone awry?

I don't think your habit of hate is a mental illness. I think it's a habit of perspective, as you said, that you've had your whole life.

And the accompanying depression seems reasonable, as well.

I think you nailed it, too, that your hate comes from fear (which you hate, too).

And I have this undying belief in me that you, too, will change in the future, the fruits of your hate are fully visible to you, around you...when you see your children with the same habit of hate for themselves...which shocked me to see it so plainly during crisis in my sons. And they have it, too, Hold. Breaks my heart I passed that on...even though I stopped five years ago.

Seeing just how much my self-hate harmed those I deeply loved (under all my hard-crusted resentment)...and realizing I wanted them to NOT self-hate, to love themselves, even as I loved them...was what did it for me. It hasn't for you, yet.

I believe it will. Now, having shared that with you, I can better grasped how much God needs us to love ourselves, even as he loves us...to do otherwise breaks our relationship, impedes and does harm to it, with him.

Takes a lot of energy to punish yourself, your marriage, your wife...especially when being a nerd is no crime...no transgression. Of course, I prefer being a Geek, myself.

And I look forward to when you change your choice to hate habitually...when you know forgiveness for the unforgivable...

Until then, you know you're loved, anyway.

LA
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 09:07 PM
Hold -

I'm just another faceless bunch of type on the 'net, but I want to offer something to you because whether you believe it or not right now, you deserve better from yourself. Take a chance on this, it's just a book. Go find a copy of The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns -- Half Price Books (if they're in your area) usually has a copy.

Don't just *read* it. Work through it, one section at a time, and *do* the assignments.

You don't have anything to lose except the pain, and the power of your victimhood. Trust me, it's *much* better on this side of things.

TAC
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 10:06 PM
Last night D12 and I went over her science test. She got a 53. Had a 91 average before the test. So this will haunt her all year (or at least all marking period, not sure how that works).

She was careless. Also, she has a hard time dealing with (i) keeping decimal places and orders of magnitude clear in her head (ii) converting dry volume measures to liquid volume measures, and (iii) arithmetic. Especially the latter, since her "granola" elementary school program was very good at building self esteem and OK at teaching reading and writing but completely ignored memorizing the multiplication tables. So she doesn't immediately recognize that 16, 25 and 36 are "perfect squares". Or that 20 * 30 is 600 because 2 * 3 = 6 and you add 2 zeroes.

We spent hours focusing on always converting dry volume to cc or liquid volume to ml (since 1 cc = 1 ml), and then moving the decimal place as required to express the answer in whatever units were requested.

Afterward she was so proud of herself. And so happy to have spent the evening with dad. Even doing science homework. AT the end I got a thank you hug. I know I must rate if she enjoyed doing her science homework! I am loved.

And I am getting what I signed up for.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 12:56 AM
Hi, Hold. We've only corresponded a couple of times, but, I follow your sitch regularly. Just wanted to throw out a couple of ramblings.

I've seen you frequently state how much you hate yourself and for how long. I just have to ask: Why?

It seems to me you're a pretty decent guy. You certainly love your family. You work hard in a vocation where you're unhappy in order to provide for your household. I would say you're loyal to the point of your own detriment. You're not malicious, vengeant, or mean. You practice faith. You have great perseverance.

Personally, I believe you'd rather hurt yourself than hurt someone else. You actually care about others that much. At the very least, you maintain a pleasant demeanor because you don't want to manifest your unhappiness on those who are not the cause of it.

So, I've a notion that all this self-hate you carry is from:

1. Feeling guilty or ashamed that you're angry at someone who you believe you shouldn't have anger for.

2. Having anger that you know is reasonable, but you believe, either from experience or intuition, that expressing it dangerous.

3. Fear that if you start expressing your anger, you'll lose control and it will come out as an uncontrolled torrent, possibly with grave consequences.

Does any of that ring true?

One of my favorite sayings is:
"The definition of stress is having to restrain oneself from beating the crap out of someone who desperately deserves it."

I'm not saying we should go out and start pounding on people. But I am saying that chronically, acutely suppressing our feelings is detrimental to the point of being unhealthy.

I've lived these experiences and still do; I would bet you are, too.

Maybe we shouldn't be asking how to change ourselves, and we know better than to ask how to change others. Maybe the real questions should be:

1. How do we make peace with being angry at those we don't want to be angry with?

2. How can we properly express anger in situations where we believe it is dangerous to do so?

3. How can we express our anger and still maintain control of ourselves and our emotions?

If I can learn the answer to those questions, my life will improve by orders of magnitude. I'd bet yours would, too, Hold.

'Reckon that's about enough out of me for now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 03:16 PM
COTF
Yes! Yes! Yes! That is it exactly! Excellent questions.

When you find the answers, please drop me a line.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 08:53 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 09:33 PM
Shabbat Shalom Mark.

Musical service tonight at our synagogue. Tomorrow night is bingo night. Should have a chance to be surrounded by warm feelings IRL.

Hope everyone has a healthy and fulfilling weekend.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/07/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by chewing.on.tin.foil
So, I've a notion that all this self-hate you carry is from:

1. Feeling guilty or ashamed that you're angry at someone who you believe you shouldn't have anger for.

2. Having anger that you know is reasonable, but you believe, either from experience or intuition, that expressing it dangerous.

3. Fear that if you start expressing your anger, you'll lose control and it will come out as an uncontrolled torrent, possibly with grave consequences.


1. I believe that this behavior roots from childhood. Perhaps he was feeling angry at someone and was made to feel bad about it.

But a child will create coping mechanism and behavior that shapes toward putting toxic shame on himself when he feels that anger, and suppresses that feeling so that he will be likable and lovable.

This coping mechanism prevails throughout his life because he does not know better, nor realize that "feeling angry" is ok, and he has a right to feel anything he wants. That is far different from the "actions" he does when he is feeling angry.

2. The second point pretty much supports that the learned coping mechanism. A child would not know the difference of feeling, expressing feeling, versus acting towards that feeling. An adult would.

3. I think that fear of losing control is a false belief. I think deeper in his psyche, if he expressed his anger, he is thinking that will make him a person not worthy of love and care. I think that psyche is of the child and that fears still lingers despite that fact that the adult logic can assess how he can control himself and not let his emotions run wild just by expressing he is angry.


Originally Posted by chewing.on.tin.foil
1. How do we make peace with being angry at those we don't want to be angry with?

2. How can we properly express anger in situations where we believe it is dangerous to do so?

3. How can we express our anger and still maintain control of ourselves and our emotions?


1. How? By believing that you as a human have the right to "feel" what you are feeling. Feelings come and go. You can feel happy, or sad. And you can certainly feel mad.

Just look at the pre-school TV show "Ni Hao Kailan." My D4 asks, "Daddy are you happy, sad or mad?" It is ok to feel these.

2. The trepidation of losing control is a concern. That's why there is anger management specialists. But this fear should not be the inhibitor of expressing anger. Expressing anger can be done in productive ways. Saying it without really expecting a respond works. Yelling inside a car works. If you need further physical exertion, there's a gym.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 12:30 AM
Nice weekend. Services Friday and Sunday and bingo at the synagogue Saturday night. Mrs. Hold said "they like you there". I asked how she could tell. She said "body language and facial expression when they are near you". I thanked her for sharing since I am not confident in my "reads" of people.

I called several guys to help with a "men club" project next weekend. I was proud of myself for stepping out of my comfort zone to make the "ask" of guys I am not close to.

I had a chart with Mrs. Hold and am trying to feel good about some good things happening at work. Trying to fight my depression pessimism and negativity.

Sunday night we heard a radio advertisement about "adult" gifts. I told her it hurt me to hear the ad since that stuff is not part of our life. I said my head is messed up and I am not prepared to deal with our sex life but it hurts that it is unsatisfying. She got angry and said "but I tried so hard to make the last time good for you". I replied "yes, it was. I liked how you stroked me all over my body. I liked the way you were caring and not cruel about my performance. But I feel we still have issues to resolve." We sat in silence the rest of the car ride.

This morning I did some more drive by honesty: "it hurts me that after all these years you seem prepared to deal with the sex issue now, and I am no longer able to do so." Then walked away.

I am angry with myself for being such a mess and not able to get out of my own way. But I am trying not to let it get me even more depressed.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 12:54 AM
MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 02:43 PM
She is not heinous. She is a complex beautiful and flawed person, as are we all. She has had a traumatic past which makes it difficult for her to relate to me in the way I desire. That doesn't make her heinous. Just makes her human.

In a way, she and I already are in prison. What she and I need is to be released.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 06:51 PM
I don't believe your wife is flawed or heinous, Hold.

I think she's acted despicably, as have I. And I'm still loved. So is she.

And she stopped acting in heinous ways.

I believe we are not flawed because our very weaknesses serve us, as do our strengths...and each other. Again, nothing to an extreme...

Guess that negates my belief, eh? When we choose an extreme perspective or perception, then that's our flaw?

Not a condition...a choice.

I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...

what would that take, Hold? What would you need to think, believe or feel in order to stop doing yourself and others harm?

When I asked myself that question...I had to figure out my boundary through deductive reasoning...

Belief: Good people do not do harm.
Belief: Humans do harm.
Therefore: Good people are not human.

Wasn't really working for me...and after breaking it down, I could see why.

Belief: I was a bad person, hence, I did harm.

Least I was human.

smile

What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do?

To self-hate? To feel and act from hate? Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?

What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?

LA
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.


I disagree. She may be part of those things, but Hold himself has the ultimate control of his life. He let those things happen, or did little to correct them. He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.

The flaw in the MB principles is that it requires both person to build on the marriage at the same time. And when there is no effort or progress from both, there is Plan B and D which requires the person making that decision to make changes and actions take upon for himself/herself.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:03 PM
jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:22 PM
Quote
He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.

Quote
I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important.

I don't see how these two statements disagree.

Quote
To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided.

I don't think this is what JM said. He said he stayed in the M because something was more important, not he stayed because something in the M was more important than sex". Wow, amazing how changing the location of one phrase changes the meaning!

Quote
A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

And, so, that responsible father stays in the M because his role as a father is more important to him. I think that doesn't disagree with what JM said.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...

I too wonder.

Quote
What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do? To self-hate?

Seems to be. I have been this way as far back as I can remember. Certainly back to kindergarten.

Quote
Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?

Interesting. Yes, it certainly does to Mrs. Hold. She sees the self-hating me. The real me. My parents? I think they try to avoid seeing it because it pains them. My kids? Not clear if they allow themselves to admit what they see. Everyone else? Probably does not occur to them that I am so self-hating but it would explain various inconsistencies if someone suggested it to them.

Quote
What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?

No idea. I have been this way as far back as I am conscious. Certainly it was deeply ingrained by age 5. Whether genetics or life experience, no way for me to say. Probably a large helping of both. Genetic predisposition plus nurture in a shame-based culture.

As for the other comments, you guys are correct that this is my choice. My decision to stay married. My decision not to have firmer boundaries. My decision not to Plan B. I am getting what I signed up for.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 10:35 PM
And your decision to self-hate, too.

Agreed.

You describe it as a condition, when it's a choice. A choice continually made, so automatic, you experience it like a condition.

And all the while...in your basement somewhere...is a book...which was written by a man, out of love and care for other humans, and himself, to help you find your way to answers, to solve your reasons for self-hating, and to love your way to thriving.

And you just won't choose to go downstairs and find it.

Makes sense. Which is why the first step in Alanon is to admit one is powerless and their life unmanageable. When you get to that point, you'll find that book in your collection...in a stack to the side, under something else, maybe. And you will change your choices, your marriage, your parenting and your life.

Because you went to the basement and read something someone wrote from love. After all, you read all these posts for these years on MB...also written from one human to another, from love. Just as you have posted to others from love and respect.

Maybe you don't self-hate as much as you choose to believe...you have accepted these hundreds of posts...written with care and consideration.

Hmmm.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 10:58 PM
LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:33 PM
What if the work isn't hard or painful?

What if it's freeing, fulfilling, amazing?

The unknown is just that--unknown. We can manipulate it to seem hard, difficult, painful or leave it in truth--unknown until we get there.

I'm asking you to choose to go there. And you're saying, "No, don't want to experience the unknown."

And yet, you're good at it...you do unknown every day...because in reality, you experience it each and every day...every new day is unknown...and then you live it.

So, Marge, you're soaking in it.

Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...

Thank you for going down those stairs. Would you consider going down and picking it up, carrying it upstairs to your nightstand...so it won't be lonely down there?

smile

Which is an alternative...you can do for others what you aren't willing to do consciously for yourself...do it for the book. The book is lonely, wants to be read, wants to communicate...I know you...you'll listen for the sake of the book.

What if your rage inside, that deep anger turned inward, is because of your severe and continuing mistreatment of yourself? Like anger of injustice?

I don't think you wallow well, btw. To me, more like you try it on like a new suit, wiggle around and take it off.

ROFLMAO on the double entendre. I can't believe you don't deeply love and appreciate your humor---self-amusement is really under-rated, IMO. Your persistence.

Thank you very much, bottom of my heart, for responding to my posts to you. I am still loving myself back from the place you have been in...because I, too, sometimes try on that suit.

(your suit doesn't suit you)

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...

I did not communicate well. I did NOT get good feelings when reading the book. Quite the opposite. The book triggered many negative feelings. That is why I put it down.

The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.

If I am going to pick up the book again, I need to be willing to embrace the good times and the good memories and the good feelings. But I cannot do that. Because doing that would require me to let go of the "inner truth" that I am unloved and unlovable. Doing that would require me to admit that there have been good times and good feelings. It would require me to let the good feelings in. Past my moats and walls. And that I will not do.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by themud
jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.

Oh, believe me, I was in a very similar situation as Hold dating back, what 2002?

I've posted here almost every day, and mainly focused on the lack of sex, or unmet SF.

All I am saying is understand what MB principle is about. It takes 2 to make the marriage work. And if 1 spouse is not willing, then it is up to the other spouse to look at himself/herself and make decisions.

Making a decision, at least for me leads to seeking further knowledge. And one of the very first "a ha" moments I learned here is that "I can only change myself, and I should only change myself for the reason of wanting that change for myself" --not to change for my spouse, not to change "expecting" it will change my spouse. I can change me, and can only hope my spouse choose to change herself.

Hold has thought out and even discussed divorce with his wife. I'm sure I read some of his post on that thought.

In my case, it was around the end of 2006 when we were in IC/MC when we were discussing separation and D. By 2007, I decided / realize / believe that my marriage exist because I still choose to be in the marriage; likewise, she is choosing to be married to me. The talk of D was a waste because we both know that if the marriage dies, it leads to a D.

It was also my own struggle to put weight and value to sex. Believe me, I was at some point in the belief that sex without marriage is not a marriage. I've wandered off MB and found other sources of knowledge along the way.

Here's another fact:
A marriage can exist with sex.
A marriage can exist without sex.
Sex can happen in marriage.
Sex can happen without marriage.

My point is, sex is just ONE factor of the marriage. I thought long about my values and beliefs, and my marriage have many other values I want in my life. Sex is just ONE.

That said, I found another source from No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG) by Glover. One other "a ha" moment for me that took a while to accept was something like this: "I am the only person in the world who is responsible for meeting my needs."

That sounded contradictory to MB. But looking at it this way, if I can meet all my needs, then I am a whole person and do not need anyone in my life.

My Marriage is now shaped by what I put into, plus what she puts into. Likewise, my wife has her own marriage defined by what she puts into.

The NMMNG also covers a few principles that MB has touched upon. Love Buster is the same as passive-aggressive behaviors. The "no expectations" is similar to "hidden contracts."

Anyway, I think one difference in my approach from Hold is that I began to accept myself just the way I am, human, male with needs, where sex is a natural need and it is not shameful, with flaws, and worthy of love and care.

I was in some period of time where I withdraw and spiral into some depressing pit that just generates resentment. I've become more aware when my mind set goes in that thinking pattern, and instead I do things to promote positives in my life be it family, health, diet, and personal growth.

Reading Hold's posts does not seem he had changed in how he thinks of himself, a victim trapped. Hold is intelligent and can find answers, but he needs to take the risk to overcome what trepidations he has to enforce his personal boundaries so that he leads a life he wants.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.


I don't know what book you're referring to.

Curious tho, was there a childhood memory where you were told "bad boy" or some such which the child in you translate that you are a bad person for who you are, therefore not worthy of love, respect, care, etc?

And do you think such child would develop some coping mechanism to want to be loved and change his behavior to conform to get that love, even when that child is doing actions against his personality?

The NMMNG had one section about this, and I remember a question posed to me. You're an adult now, with the power and control of your life, what will you say to the child? Do you think that child should be explained that the his behaviors were not appropriate, and that he is worthy to be loved because he is unique and his person is a gift to the world. And that he is human like everyone that can make mistakes, and it is natural to make mistakes, and he is intelligent to learn from those mistakes. I would tell that child to live a life of his own choosing because he is ok just being himself.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:06 AM
**edit**
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:43 AM
Wow, Bubbles, I'm having a hard time understanding how your words might be helpful.

Agree, disagree with holds' approach to his marriage and life but attacking the kids? I can't imagine that would motivate anyone to listen to you.

Hold appears to be an intelligent man with a very low opinion of himself, the inability to get out of his own way, and his emotional capacity to change at zero. Be that as it may, displaying tact and kindness probably wouldn't hurt you.

Your tough love approach can come of as just meanness.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:59 AM
It is not the kids fault they are this way. It is due to the dysfunctional marriage. I really feel sorry for the kids. they do not deserve any of it. I especially worried about the boy. He was ready to off himself in the past.

I know I said it the wrong way. What I meant was: These kids are hurting and having problems, please get them some help and work out your marriage so the kids will feel better and not act out the tension in the home in various destructive ways.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:16 PM
Bubbles:

Thank you for your concern. I know you care about me and I care about you.

My kids are actually doing great. Puberty has been very kind to D12 and although she is still slightly overweight not nearly so much as several years ago. Basically her weight has stayed the same but moved to different places and she grew a couple of inches. So a much better ratio. She is quite popular socially and beyond her school friends is part of a tight knit community on her swim team.

S15 is also doing very well. He made the freshmen soccer and basketball teams. He has friends and goes to parties. His phone and computer receive a non-stop stream of messages. Yesterday he told Mrs. Hold "I want to do well in high school so I can go to a good college and get a good job so I can afford a nice place to live when I grow up". No more talk of "I wish I never existed".

Both kids do great in school. D12 has slumped slightly from her straight A average last marking period but is still doing very well and seems motivated to work harder going forward. S15 is doing honors level 10th grade math in 9th grade, and both his Mandarin and Spanish teachers say he has a gift for languages.

Mrs. Hold and I are very blessed in our children. And so far our parenting seems to be working for them. I am NOT going to rock this boat. The least likely outcome is that I become significantly more satisfied with my life. The terrifyingly likely outcome is that it throws one or both of my kids off their current successful path.

I appreciate your supportive thoughts on my behalf. Rest assured that I am making a conscious choice here. Might not be the choice that others would make for me. But for now I am determined to remain on this course. Bashing my wife does not motivate me to take different action. It just makes me more depressed about the parts of my situation I have no intention of changing.

The area where I need motivation is around work. I once again through God's grace find myself in a position with some interesting possibilities. I need to take advantage of them. So if you are going to "yell", please don't yell at Mrs. Hold. Yell at me. Because things will be much easier for me and the kids if I succeed at work.

Thanks again for your love. Now show me some tough love and kick my butt to write the memos that need to get out today! wink
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:21 PM
Hold,

Write the d*mn memo's. You can probably have them done by lunch.

Set a timer if you need to (I will work on these for one hour), and then take a break.

Report back here during that break and let us know how it is going.

Don't let yourself get distracted by trying to repress feelings of excitement.

Just focus on it--let other things wait till the end of the day if you have to.

Make the memo's happen!
Posted By: Lucks Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink


Hi Hold! Merry almost Christmas/Happy Hanukkah.

This may seem like a weird comment, and indeed it may be, but...your post above reminds me of a recent novel I read on my Kindle. It was free, I may have passed by it otherwise. It was about a young woman in a town, emotionally and physically abused, thus diseased and perhaps possessed who seemed to be the crux of all the bad things happening. Shot off into the horror genre...but, point I'm trying to make...although the writing was intelligent and laced appropriately with feelings, it went too far into poetic wishy-washiness. "Suddenly, she clearly saw it all. [for the 200th time in the story] She was the beginning. She was the end. It was the same. It was so very different. She really saw. And still, she saw nothing. It had been her all along. It had never been her." Through the entire story, I was like, so make up your mind already!

smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 04:30 PM
Oh how do I recognize the desire to procrastinate writing memos/letters/papers/reports/etc!

For me, the reason for putting it off is because I think I'm still "thinking about it" and I don't have it perfect yet.

But being late/not doing it at all is worse.

Flylady says you can do anything for 15 minutes. Set a timer on your computer, phone, whatever; and spend 15 minutes writing as many rough drafts as possible. They don't have to be perfect. When the 15 minutes is up, take a break; then in an hour, or later today, or whenever you think best, spend another 15 minutes editing the drafts. Then send them, or at least start sending some of them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:12 PM
One memo out the door. Important phone call completed. Meeting scheduled for Friday to pitch decent sized piece of business. Productive morning. Off to lunch meeting!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:15 PM
Yay!

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:17 PM
Glad the kids are doing better!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:20 PM
smile Hold...I do best under a little bit of pressure. I second the whole timer thing. It may seem really silly, but dang, it works. It really does. And then, of course...you need to reward yourself when you've done it a few times each day. LOL Latte, lunch out, brisk walk, or whatever makes you feel good.

Another successful thing I did when working was draw a horizontal line across each day on my desk calendar, with the top being for a.m. and the bottom being for p.m. Then I'd fill each half with a few things that needed to be done before and after lunch. That seemed to help me to some degree.

I personally favor the timer, though. I'd be lost without mine.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/11/09 11:45 PM
Shabbat Shalom and :happyhanukkah: Hold!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/12/09 01:15 PM
Happy Hanukkah, Hold. smile I hope the holiday brings you some peace and happiness with your family.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:07 AM
Lit candles together all 3 nights so far. Went to services this morning with D12. Then got a bunch of guys to serve potato pancakes to the kids at the religious school. So the religious stuff is going well. And I am proud that I pulled together a bunch of guys I don't know that well.

Went shopping with Mrs. Hold yesterday. Tried to assist her in cooking dinner tonight. Both very strained. We never worked well together on same task. Getting worse over time. We now pretty much have to work parallel rather than together because together doesn't work. Still, getting what I signed up for. She wants more verbal and emotional togetherness and interaction. I actively resist that. Can't complain when she is then testy. Not helpful. But not unexpected.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:20 PM
I may have to dial back on the withdrawal. Too much tension with Mrs. Hold. Has to cut into the kids.

I guess I will have to keep telling myself that she is a good person and I love her rather than counting the days.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:35 PM
Hold...gotta tell you that it feels to me that you've taken on a bit of a sadistic role in this. Punishing her, not forgiving her, and hurting yourself in the process. Just saying.

You wanted her to lose the weight. She did. Didn't change your attraction to her, apparently.

You want her to get a job to help with the credit card bills. She hasn't. That continues to be an issue. What changes between you and her if she does this?

Are you a moving target, Hold? Are you one of those people that frustrate your spouse because you're so hard to please?

What incentive would Mrs. H have right now to stay in the marriage if it were just the two of you? You seem to dwell a lot over your own incentives. What are hers? You don't have to answer me. It's just something to think about.



Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:48 PM
I wonder what would happen if Mrs. Hold came up to hold and said "I'm so sorry for having hurt you. I neglected you and made you feel like what you wanted wasn't important. I did not treat you well and I was wrong.

I want to make it up to you. If you can open your heart to me, I want us to be happy together--and that includes your dreams for a loving sexual relationship"

I think Hold might still feel nothing for a good long while, but if she followed it up (consistently and over time) to show him that she meant what she said, and she pursued him for enjoyable SF--as well as doing all the other nice things that are important to each of htem...

Then HOld would open back up to her again, and could be happy with her.

It would take her a lot more time and effort now than it would have, say, 8 years ago! But I think it's doable. Because Hold wants to be loved. He just has stopped letting himself feel that longing because it is more painful than being numb.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Are you a moving target, Hold? Are you one of those people that frustrate your spouse because you're so hard to please?

For many years I was not a moving target. I told her what I needed. She was unable to address my needs.

Now? Who knows? The ED has really shaken me. I used to say "what would it take for me to forgive you? Sex every day for 30 days, or every week for 6 months." Now, I would definitely not be able to have sex every day for 30 days and might not be able to have sex once a week. Heck, these days I can't have intercourse at all. What would it take for me to forgive her now? I am not sure there is anything, since I am not capable of participating in what would help. I am so messed up in my head I am not sure whether her providing more sex would help or would bother me.

Quote
What incentive would Mrs. H have right now to stay in the marriage if it were just the two of you? You seem to dwell a lot over your own incentives. What are hers? You don't have to answer me. It's just something to think about.

If I were her, I would not want to stay married to me except for the finances and the kids. Not a happy place for her to be. If you asked "should she be in love with you, given how you treat her and think about her?" I would have to say "no". Does that bother me? Yes. Am I planning to do anything to change it? No. Am I cutting off my nose to spite my face? Yes, of course I am. And I expect to continue doing so. That is why I am such a mess, and continue posting here to no avail. The only rational part of me is the part that feels bad about knowing that I intend to continue bashing my head against a brick wall.

The question is whether Telly is correct. Suppose Mrs. Hold apologized. Supposed she tried to meet my needs. Would my heart soften? Would I forgive her (and myself)? Would I work to implement the MB system and build a happy marriage (not rebuild - we never had anything that was happy for me after the wedding)? I honestly don't know.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:20 PM
The MRS needs to put her money where her mouth is. She has manipulated you for 14 years now. I would like to see her realize what stealing your retirement money has meant to you. And to get a full time job, give ALL the income to you to pay back debt and restore your retirement account. That would maybe take 7 years. During those 7 years, you could decide to like her again.

Perhaps you love her, but you do not like her much. That always causes a conflict.


1. You love her in a deep way and as mother of your kids
2. You dislike her most days
3. You do not trust her
4. You cannot trust her with your emotions
5. You cannot trust her STILL with finances
6. You cannot trust her to save money
7. You cannot trust her with your sexuality
8. You cannot trust her to support you in any way
9. YOu cannot even trust her not to disparage you in public
10. yOu cannot trust her to respect you
11. you cannot trust her to be a spiritual equal
12. You cannot trust the woman with anything
13. You cannot trust her to get a job and help out.
14. You cannot trust her not to lay demand after demand on you

You are but a convienient meal ticket for her. It is a sad waste. And you think this is YOUR PROBLEM or YOUR FAULT?????

Wow.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:23 PM
HOLD, in your younger years, before you knew what the MRS was truly like, you could have banged her and not worried if you liked her or trusted her or could ever trust her or if she would steal you blind if she got her paws on any money.

But now, it is more crucial to be able to LIKE and TRUST a woman before WANTING to have sex with her. This is more important to you than the act itself.

Having sex with someone you neither like nor trust......is tough. It would be impossible for me to have sex with someone I could not trust and whom I did not like.

It would be impossible for me to have sex with a spouse who uses me over and over and cares very very little about ME.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
14. You cannot trust her not to lay demand after demand on you

Yesterday Mrs. Hold spent the afternoon researching summer enrichment programs for S15. She showed me one from NYU and one from Columbia. I think thay cost about $5000 for 3 weeks of programming. Given what it costs to attend college there, may or may not be a "good deal" based on time spent. But that doesn't matter, because we don't have the $5000. And somehow I feel guilty that I cannot afford to provide this for S15. He is already spending a week at a science camp in Bermuda that is stretching our budget.

WTH is wrong with me that I cannot simply say "I would love to provide that to S15, but we can't afford it. So we will have to find something less expensive." ARGH, I am such a wimpy loser!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:31 PM
Right hold, you are a loser for wanting to provide extras for your son. That makes you a LOSER?!

I would suspect that MOST men feel badly when their wife asks them about something they can't afford.

She shouldn't even be asking. You make a good living and you provide well for your family.

THe rest of what you hear in your head are LIES.

Can you focus on something positive today--something you can take some action on? How did the memo's etc go last week? What's on the agenda for this week?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:34 PM
I think thay cost about $5000 for 3 weeks of programming. Given what it costs to attend college there, may or may not be a "good deal" based on time spent. But that doesn't matter, because we don't have the $5000. And somehow I feel guilty that I cannot afford to provide this for S15. He is already spending a week at a science camp in Bermuda that is stretching our budget.

Your wife was an accountant!!! For goodness sakes does she not know how much money you two have available? There is a little bean game you should get her that shows CHILDREN how much money is available for things in a household.

When she brings this up, show her the budget and ask her if she is willing to work for 1/3 of a year at a job to pay for it. I bet she says NO.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:38 PM
http://extension.usu.edu/utah/files/uploads/Finance/THE%20BEAN%20GAME.pdf

HOLD, I think you need to take the position that "your wife does not understand budgeting and has never learned how to manage money" and you need to teach her at the kitchen table. Use BEANS instead of actual money to show her that MONEY IS LIMITED!!!!

I am so enraged by a woman who sits around and wont work and continues to act as if you have unlimited funds. Do you pretend you have unlimited funds to be more attractive to her or something? How could she be so dense??? Are you hiding the budget from her????? I am enraged.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
HOLD, in your younger years, before you knew what the MRS was truly like, you could have banged her and not worried if you liked her or trusted her

No. I could not have. That is part of the tragedy here. I was never that kind of guy. Once I realized a woman was not "the one", I was uncomfortable having sex with her. That is one aspect of my lack of pre-marital sexual experience.

To that extent, I was similar to someone who was "saving themselves" for marriage. Which makes the lack of sex in our marriage all the more painful.

In a wierd way, I think I could more easily have "no strings" sex today. Today, I feel the younger me was stupid and naive and idealistic. Today, I would grab that guy by the throat and shake him back and forth and scream "you idiot, what are you waiting for? get out there and get some!" I don't like the me I was then. And I don't like the me I am now. What a waste.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:42 PM
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.

It has been a long time since I trusted my spouse. Wow, in February it will be 10 years since "the discovery". That is a long time to sleep next to someone you don't trust.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:58 PM
Hold, I can relate. A university down here emailed us that DD13 qualified from her state testing scores to take the SAT to qualify for a summer program there. She took is and got a great score, and was eligible, but we didn't send her there. She wanted to go to acting camp, so we sent her to that instead. Because we can't afford everything. It was a family decision we were all enthusiastic about.

What do you think about looking at this as a family decision? I used to also ask H if we could afford stuff, instead of talking through the decision together. I made a mistake, but I can make amends by doing it differently today. I think if you as a family looked at this, you would likely come to the same decision, that he'd prefer to do the Bermuda program.

One day's actions don't define you, make you some wimpy loser or something. You are so special, Hold, made with a purpose. When your actions and values don't line up, you felt pain. All that makes you is human, right? What is an action you could take today that would line up with your values? Did you ever read that You Don't Have To Take It Anymore by Steven Stosny? He encourages you to come up with a list, and males some suggestions, and one is to watch your kids sleep, how's that for something to bring you peace, to reconnect you with what you are doing daily that does go with your values?

I know that whole self-flagellation thing is familiar, but I don't think that's the only way to get relief from feeling in pain.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:22 PM
Hold...just a thought, but is there any chance that your son could actually work at the camp but still gain something from it?

You may have to sit your wife down and ask her not to even bring certain things up because you cannot afford it, but also because it makes you feel badly. Tell her that when she gets a job, perhaps these are the sorts of things her salary could go towards after the credit card balance is paid off.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:24 PM
Hold,

Why don't you say...

"MrsHold, I know you researched this and believe it may be something you really want for DS this summer. I know you know our budget cannot affor it and that you can earn the money to pay for it. I support you in achieving this for our family."

Would you consider adding...

"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

And this is me, believing you like MrsHold to feel delighted...that it pleases you when she does. That's what I believe of you. Within moments, I think you resent her feeling happy...doesn't take away the initial pleasure for you.

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:25 PM
From my point of view, without trust, you have no relationship. In order to live with a woman you knew you could not trust....just think what you had to do to YOURSELF and YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT....in order to continue on with her.

I could not live with a man I could not trust. It would emotionally and spiritually kill me little by little. The sad part is, MRS HOLD has had chances to prove she is now trustworthy.

1. She could prove to you she does not look to spend beyond the budget ever.

2. She could get a job and pay your accounts back that she stole from

3. She could save money by cleaning her own house

4. She could refrain from blowing the budget every chance she gets as if it means NOTHING

5. She could use her skills as an accountant to make up a detailed family budget and stick to it.

Any and all of these things could have and would have told you that she was "now trustworthy" and then you could have begun to trust her again. But NO. She did not do ANYTHING that would cause you to deem her trustworthy. She simply...can NOT be trusted. And you KNOW THIS. And you still have to live with her. And it probably kills you inside.

Not being able to trust your spouse would be heinous. A destructive and heinous position to be in. The fact that you are living with an untrustworthy person would make you feel bad about yourself and most everything else. Every day would seem bad. Living with such a person.

She may as well have had an affair on you for as much damage as she has done to your trust.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:44 PM
HOLD things could be tearing you up inside. No wonder you are not very happy.

1. You feel you must stay with an untrustworthy spouse
2. Your wife PRETENDS you have $$$ to spend on expensive stuff
3. Your wife you live with does not care to help support the family.
4. Your wife does not care for you yet you must support her
5. You love the kids and the wife comes with them.
6. You love your wife but cant trust her and do not like her.
7. You cannot enjoy being around a person you cannot trust.
8. She lies to you, to herself, and to others around her.
9. She is an accountant who refuses to stick to a budget
10. She does not help look out for you or the family..financially
11. She is often mean to you
12. She is rude to you
13. She is diseased with herpes
14. She is a human leech
15. She offers nearly nothing to you
16. She does not give anything but expects you to sacrifice everything including your own mental and physical health.

I dislike your wife so much for her selfish behavior. I could not live with such a person.

I would have anxiety attacks since my inner being would be constantly screaming at me to "get away from this person! NOW!"

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 05:28 PM
Last year S15 went to summer school in the mornings from 8 to noon. Then he hung out with his friends in the afternoon. Mrs. Hold does not see that as sufficiently enriching. I have no problem with that sort of schedule for the coming summer. S15 has complained his "college prep track" academic requirements are so extensive he cannot take many electives. If he took an English or history class over the summer, that would open up a couple of slots for him to take culinary arts (the HS has a full commercial kitchen as a classroom), auto shop, etc. during the school year.

Also, our town bought a bankrupt country club last fall to prevent it from falling into disrepair. They are offering town residents family pool and tennis memberships for $1400. If we got that, all 4 of us could use the facilities for the entire summer. Seems to me a much better deal (although much less exotic) than spending $5000 on 3 weeks for S15 and then having done nothing for D12 (or ME - yikes, did I just mention my needs should be considered too?).

Or maybe S15 has ideas of his own. Maybe he could get a job as a CIT or counsellor at a local day camp. It is not easy to sell "hold the hands of a bunch of 8 year olds" when your mother is offering "spend 3 weeks in NYC living in a college dorm".

I am not suggesting the kids sit home and stew in their juices all summer. But I am not enthusiastic about spending $5000 to cover only a portion of the summer for one child. Now the question is, what am I willing to do about my lack of enthusiasm. Wish me luck in the coming argument!

LA, it has been so long since Mrs. Hold felt delighted about anything involving me. I don't know how I would feel if she expressed delight. I used to like it. Now? I might only resent it. Hard to tell. I have given up even trying to prompt her delight. I don't believe I can accomplish that often enough to be worth the effort. Moreover, I would feel bad about prompting her delight if there were no reciprocation. I would not take delight in her delight. I would feel foolish.

I would like to be in a marriage where I did take delight in my wife's delight. I would like to be in a marriage where I was motivated to work toward prompting my wife's delight. I do not believe I will ever be in that kind of marriage with Mrs. Hold. The only question in my mind is whether I am capable of finding someone else who is interested in creating such a marriage with me. Which would rquire me to become a person worthy of such a marriage. I am not that person today. And I do not belive I will attempt to become such a person while I remain married to Mrs. Hold. As Soolee said, I get too much secondary benefit from punishing Mrs. Hold. That "benefit", albeit small and warped, is assured. I don't see myself choosing to pursue the much riskier path of attempting to achieve happiness.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:00 PM
"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

For some reason, I don't think it's that she necessarily wants him to feel like a failure. I think she's really disconnected and not 'getting' the extent of the damage she did with the spending. She doesn't 'get' that he's waiting for her to take steps to help rectify it. She's sort of glossing over it in her mind, almost like she doesn't believe him - doesn't believe that what she did was all that bad...

One thing that could possibly be part of that is if Hold is keeping the bill paying, balance knowledge, cc balances, etc. apart from Mrs. Hold and not showing her the numbers monthly. Could be he isn't explaining to Mrs. Hold just how much they need in the bank before he can retire and how long that will take or before the son starts college, or before a home renovation can take place - things like that.

If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:18 PM
She has seen the numbers. She wishes they were different. She behaves as if her wishes were reality. When she ran our finances, she spent us into oblivion. When I took them over, I shared all information with her as to our income and expenses. She refuses to accept there isn't more money available.

It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Which is only fair. After all, I refuse to accept that I am never going to get to have the sex life I thought I was going to have by marrying her.

See, we are a perfect match!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:24 PM
Hold...I think you need to go over them with her monthly - not just once. I think she needs to see the numbers improving but ever so slowly. She needs to be reminded repeatedly what predicament she put the family in. Sorry to say...

Are the finances improving any since you took them over?

Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:26 PM
It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Yeah...it is a DJ, but it's worth asking her about, Hold. I think this is the kind of negative speak you keep feeding yourself that contributes to your poor self image. I think it's about time you got it out in the open and then put it to rest.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have.

Where did she get this idea?
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.

It has been a long time since I trusted my spouse. Wow, in February it will be 10 years since "the discovery". That is a long time to sleep next to someone you don't trust.


WT? I did not know of that "discovery" you are talking about. Was there OP involved?
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:53 PM
For $5k, you can just set that aside for when you buy a drivable used car when S15 gets his drivers license min a year+.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Yeah...it is a DJ, but it's worth asking her about, Hold. I think this is the kind of negative speak you keep feeding yourself that contributes to your poor self image. I think it's about time you got it out in the open and then put it to rest.


I think that would be a healthy dose of radical honesty.

Actually, it's just "blaming" or "victim puke" without really doing any effort towards whatever goal.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:58 PM
JM HOLD is talking about when he found out his wife, who had been managing their money, (she had that accounting degree after all) blew over 112K of his retirement assets, plus ran up all thier credit cards...in less than a year (BLEW THE MONEY ON NOTHING BUT JUNK) and hid all the reciepts from him.

Then, she kept lying to him until he found out the money was GONE!!!!

I would have divorced her back then. She will do nothing to pay any of it back. In fact, since then, she has forged his checks, stolen money from credit cards, opened her own credit cards that she ran up, and misused (overspending) his debit cards whenever he lets her have one for the day.

She is terrible.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

For some reason, I don't think it's that she necessarily wants him to feel like a failure. I think she's really disconnected and not 'getting' the extent of the damage she did with the spending. She doesn't 'get' that he's waiting for her to take steps to help rectify it. She's sort of glossing over it in her mind, almost like she doesn't believe him - doesn't believe that what she did was all that bad...

One thing that could possibly be part of that is if Hold is keeping the bill paying, balance knowledge, cc balances, etc. apart from Mrs. Hold and not showing her the numbers monthly. Could be he isn't explaining to Mrs. Hold just how much they need in the bank before he can retire and how long that will take or before the son starts college, or before a home renovation can take place - things like that.

If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.

I wrote that from Hold's POV...my way of asking was this close? Could this be a hidden payoff in the way he addresses his life...can't know what MrsHold is really thinking/not thinking...she's not here. She hasn't been in all this time, has she?

But if he feels she does this to reinforce his belief that she wishes she could go back in time, pre-kids and marry a bigger sugar daddy (and I am implying that Hold has played that part at times in their marriage), then that's a false payoff...he likes that she reinforces what he thinks of himself...the self-hatred, proving he's right, he's a loser, not enough...again, a distorted payoff.

Hold, you didn't address if this was how you felt or not...that she will bring these ideas to you as if they are doable, when she knows they are not. My statement was a way to ask her what her pay off was in doing so. You seemed to flip it over onto her in your response.

And in your monthly budget, do you have a slot for each of the kids, to keep expenditures somewhat balanced? To show an annual total, as well, to make sure neither are consuming more than the other to a great degree? Would you consider having a marital slot in the budget, for UA time, marital vacation, separate from family vacation? Anniversaries?

I'm picturing my own spreadsheet; I thought "slot" was better than "cell".

smile

Why not move the boundary, Hold? When she comes to you, before you hear her out, ask her, "I'd love to hear your ideas for our kids education, entertainment, events (insert appropriate one). What I will no longer do is listen to them until you've checked our financials...gone over our current spreadsheet. Once you do that, I'm all ears."

What do you think? Respectful. Healthy. You can do both without even liking yourself.

smile

So, is part of what you experience when she does this feeling like a failure? Or does it just give you a big dose of resentment, where you weren't considered, who was left out, her using you to dash her dreams, again?

False payoffs don't go just one way. Or else we'd stop doing the dance.

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 09:14 PM
HOLD, I just got a thought. Perhaps your wife always asking for expensive things, things that only Millionaires buy, is her way of "keeping you down" and "punishing you for not making the money she wants to spend">

I think it is a little snide way to keep you unhappy since she is unhappy without unlimited spending money. That she thinks she deserves.

The woman is bored and selfish. She should either be put in prison for what she did to you or forced to work at a terrible ditch digging like job for the next 10 years.

She seems pretty heinous to me. She killed you HOLD, and continues to do so....just not physically.

Every time she mentions some thing she wants big money for, she is trying to make you feel bad. She wants to dig that knife in DEEPER.

An ACCOUNTANT surely knows how much money is available and where it goes. Offer to buy her the latest accounting software so she can see the money flow for herself.

And I would not buy that _________ wife...ANYTHING. Rather put the extra money toward your retirement. Also make the kids have stuff that is reasonable, not stuff and programs that extremely wealthy kids go to. That is insane. It does not help the kids get ahead. There are much less expensive programs they can benefit from.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.

I show her the numbers all the time. She is not interested in what is reasonable and what is ridiculous. Were you here when she asked me for more money one month and I laughed at the thought that we had any extra money and she got angry that I laughed?

Quote
Hold, you didn't address if this was how you felt or not...that she will bring these ideas to you as if they are doable, when she knows they are not. My statement was a way to ask her what her pay off was in doing so. You seemed to flip it over onto her in your response.

That is something I can do. Ask her why she makes these requests. What is she hoping to accomplish. I predict she will answer "I want these things for our kids. Don't you?" When I point out I want them too, but we can't afford them, she will deflect / distract. We shall see how close my prediction comes to reality.

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And in your monthly budget, do you have a slot for each of the kids, to keep expenditures somewhat balanced? To show an annual total, as well, to make sure neither are consuming more than the other to a great degree?

Yes, I do. That is why I refuse to spend more on S15. We are already spending on the Bermuda trip. The next "slot" should go to D12.

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Would you consider having a marital slot in the budget, for UA time, marital vacation, separate from family vacation? Anniversaries?

No, I am not enthusiastic about that. I am not interested in more UA time, marital vacations, or costly celebrations of our anniversary. BTDT, and my needs were never addressed. Not going back there. I know our marriage has no chance of happiness without those things. Hence my prediction that our marriage will never be happy.

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Why not move the boundary, Hold? When she comes to you, before you hear her out, ask her, "I'd love to hear your ideas for our kids education, entertainment, events (insert appropriate one). What I will no longer do is listen to them until you've checked our financials...gone over our current spreadsheet. Once you do that, I'm all ears."

This I can do as well.

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So, is part of what you experience when she does this feeling like a failure?

Yes, I feel like a failure when she asks for expensive items.

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Or does it just give you a big dose of resentment, where you weren't considered, who was left out, her using you to dash her dreams, again?

That too. Resentment. Left out. Especially if she mentions things to the kids before checking with me. I have asked her not to do this. She continues to do it anyway. Then I have to be the "bad guy" who says no to Mom's great idea. I hate that.

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False payoffs don't go just one way. Or else we'd stop doing the dance.

I am sure she gets payoffs or she would stop doing it. I have stopped hoping that I can get her to give up the unhealthy payoffs.

After all, I am not willing to give them up, either.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:41 PM
After all the thousnds or millions of words here, the dynamic is very simple.

I was a failure at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I married her in the hope that copious sex with a beautiful woman would provide me with the confidence needed to succeed. It was a stupid idea and it is not surprising that it has failed.

She was supposed to be the cure for my unhappiness. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Happiness must come from within.

Now, she serves as a useful excuse for my failure.

If I were healthy, I would succeed at work. To provide a better future for my children. And our marriage would succeed or fail. But I would be happier either way.

However, I do not believe I can succeed. I was failing before I met her. Now I am older, tired, cynical, depressed and pessimistic. If I could not succeed then, why should I expect to succeed now?

On the other hand, I am confident that I can succeed at failure. So that is what I seek. What I work toward.

She is engaged in the same mechanism from the other side. She uses my lack of success and general wimpiness to excuse her failure to address my needs or do her internal work. Each of us finds it easier to blame the other than to work on ourself.

Both of us are familiar with and tolerant of failure / unhappiness. Hence we prefer the certainty of failure we can blame on our spouse. To trying and failing in a way that is purely personal.

Unless or until one of us is willing to risk more a personal failure. Neither of us has any chance of success.

As J_M said, it is all victim puke.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:55 PM
Hold,

You did the quote thing on my post and inserted Soolee's words into my quote box.

Tricky man.

smile

Just the first one...the rest of the quotes were mine.

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That is something I can do. Ask her why she makes these requests. What is she hoping to accomplish. I predict she will answer "I want these things for our kids. Don't you?" When I point out I want them too, but we can't afford them, she will deflect / distract. We shall see how close my prediction comes to reality.

I think making that boundary, that you won't engage discussion until she's reviewed the financial limitations is reasonable and respectful. As well as saying, "I believe you tell yourself you ask because you want it for one or both of our kids. I choose not to believe you anymore. I know you know we cannot do it all...and we don't sit down and enthusiastically agree ahead of time what we are able to do, equally, for our kids...and I know you won't hold yourself to not asking above and beyond what we agree to, either. I know you can work and make more happen for our kids. I'll believe you really want this for our kids when you make the money to pay for them."

Sturdy, true and loving...owning your own stuff. See, not predicting...focusing on what your real issue is...and one is that she keeps you aghast at her asking for what she knows is not possible. The Daddy-Please syndrome. Keeps you in Daddy form...and I'm asking you to stop it.

Just stop. Because it's what gives you that sin of pride and martyrdom which keeps you in self-hate.

Take away a single part and the whole house of cards fall...and you stop your cycle. Just one part destroys the loop. Think of all that energy you'll save from slaving to keep that loop in play, Hold.

And no lies that she will distract/deflect. She can't. You just stay on target, listen and repeat. She can try to distract/deflect...unless you willingly accompany her, won't work...don't go there.

Like me...

you still did not answer if historically, you felt like a failure when she would bring requests you couldn't afford to provide.

You don't have to answer, Hold...I can't make you. And it's respectful if you want to say, "I choose not to answer how I feel when she does this." I see you deflect/distract with predictions...turning to her instead of looking inward for my question.

Does that snap your suspenders?

smile

I wasn't clear enough in my slots naming...sorry. In the spreadsheet, you have a Row for each thing...Utilities (might have sub-rows for gas, electric, etc. with a subtotal), Car Maintenance...

Similarly, having a Row "Family" with three sub-rows...DS15, DD12, Marriage (not my order). And it's subtotalled (by month (columns) and by annual total...might even have actual versus budgeted.

smile

So at the time you guys booked the Bermuda trip for DS15...did you say, "I'd rather not do this until we figure out how much we're spending on Family for the year (or just those summer months), which includes us and DD12."

And if you didn't, you can now. You can stop now with the "We can't afford" and assert yourself. "I'm not supporting Bermuda, now, either, since I want balanced spending between our children" and find out if DW thinks that's reasonable...

Is it reasonable to spend as much on a 12-year-old (isn't she 13 yet?), as it is a 15-year-old? When she's 16, she'll be the only one at home...usually when the younger sibling rakes it in (in my experience as the younger sibling).

smile

Do you refuse to not do that which you will resent? Or do you refuse to not agree to anything either of you aren't enthusiastic about? Or do you refuse to spend...your quote above. Your choices...every one of them...choices from your intent, your goal...

which was to keep hating yourself and loving your kids...and surviving your wife for another six years.

Can you see where your real goals (the ones you are acting from) are in conflict with reality and your stated goals?

The "Marriage" row (slot) was half you and half her...you were addressed. My belief is that The Union comes first...and we are half that union. Because we're in there, equally, we address the Union first...our children second.

So I hear you definitively saying that you will NOT allow any of your ENs to be met within the Union, doing acts of love for the Union...and that you focus on getting yours addressed separately from The Marriage.

Whoa. You want money spent on you, for you, for IB, to harm the marriage...to feed yourself what you are choosing to deprive yourself of within the marriage. How on earth do you do that emotional math?

Okay, you can snap my suspenders (Ha! Don't wear those!)...I see where you said you do feel like a failure and you will move the boundary up to a healthy requirement. I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post and rather, began addressing bit by bit...

which can bite. smile I'm sorry.

Will you move the boundary up? Really break the daddy act to bits (please) and make it totally equals in your head...she's so capable, amazing and she can choose...and she hasn't yet. She might. Make sure you take a moment to rephrase all responses into choices.

And you cannot be the bad guy...you can be the healthy NO guy (that's part of the father's role, when it's healthy)...and you can say, "Parenting is singular (to your DS and DD). Your mother and I know we can only parent together...and at times, we screw up. We know to talk first, then inform you of our joint decision. She didn't do it this time. It happens."

No bad guys...children love your no's...later. They may hate it at first--and by nightfall, they sleep securely in knowing you're willing to enforce boundaries with "no."

Which is why they are crazy about you.

And saying a healthy "no" to your wife--maybe that's why you won't do it from love and respect...she, too, might become crazy about you.

Sure would screw up your plan to self-hate your way through life, eh?

Congratulations you no finally choosing not to hope she'll give up her unhealthy payoffs.

LA

Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:17 AM
I guess it's a matter of perspective. You say you are a failure at work, yet you have a job. You keep the job. You bring home a steady paycheck. You do not feel entitled to a bigger job without doing the requisite work. You do not belabor tasks that you think are "beneath you". You seem to work and play well with others.

From my corner of the world, I don't see that as a failure. I would have been beyond happy with a spouse who did that. (I would have even been happy with a SAHD spouse--I had the earning potential to support the family.)

So in whose eyes are/were you a failure? Yours? Mrs. Hold's?

Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:36 AM
aHA!!!

She's got you there, hold!!!!!!!
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 01:12 PM
I have been reading this thread, I think, forever. It whenever I get disguested, I get sucked back in...

First HOTI:
Your wife is a compulsive spender. (yeah, I think) She thougth she was marrying an ATM. Just like an alcholoic who thinks they have keys to the bar- Or a gambler who gets "mad money" at a casino- Or a non compliant diabetic in a candy store, You can not give the addict free reign.

You can not say, " How MUCH alcohol should I let my addict have per day?" The answer is ZERO.
The gambler -- NO CARDS
The diabetic -- NO raw sugar.
(believe me, my 49 year old diabetic sister sits there with no teeth in her head gobbeling on candy- all - the - time.)

and the compulsive spender-- NO BUDGET.

Your wife HAS a problem. She has commited theft and fraud, she would have gone to jail if she did these things at work! This is the first indication that she is an addict.

And she is in full swing addictive mode, still.

Sorry, HOTI, but you are the reason she still can.
Someday you will be divorced, or worse not here and she WILL continue the spending habits (why wouldn't she? she got away with it for years and years.?)

I have no idea how compulsive spenders recieve recovery- but I know that they have programs for it. She is not happy spending- tho she looks like it to you-

You are miserable. Your family is in chaos. The best thing you could do for yourself or her is to get her to stop the addiction.

Locate information on rehab for spending. Is there any way that there can be an intervention? Apparently your W thinks there is nothing wrong with her behavior.

There is help.
She can no make up what she has destroyed. Just like an alcohole can not "fix" things they have destroyed. But they can start over.

Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 01:20 PM
Debtors Anonymous

but there are in house treament plans also available.
and IC's who specialise in this disorder.

Good luck to you.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:48 PM
Yikes. I read this thread and I wonder if I have the same problem. Of course, I haven't spent like I have read about Mrs. Hold but I've been known to make a purchase or two that I *know* is not in the budget. And then I beat myself up over it and figure out how to earn the extra $$$ to cover for it.

Example: Last year, I was thinking about buying a flat screen hi def TV for the house for Christmas (a present for everyone). I would have loved to have a 52" really fancy big name brand model (even though I dont' want TV..LOL) but did some research and found a lesser brand, 37" for something far less than $500 (vs the $2500 on the TV I was drooling over...)

Then I did some more research and realized I could purchase it through my employee's program with several different retailers and get a 10% discount. But I had to put it on that card (the only specific credit card I own...I have ONE visa which I use for emergencies, and THIS one retailer card).

So...I did it.

But then I went into my online banking and set up automatic payments over 4 months that fit my budget and allowed me to pay off the TV. I got 90 days interest free so I did wind up paying some interest on the 4th month.

Still, it *was* an impulse purchase and I've been known to do that from time to time.

I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I think making that boundary, that you won't engage discussion until she's reviewed the financial limitations is reasonable and respectful. As well as saying, "I believe you tell yourself you ask because you want it for one or both of our kids. I choose not to believe you anymore. I know you know we cannot do it all...and we don't sit down and enthusiastically agree ahead of time what we are able to do, equally, for our kids...and I know you won't hold yourself to not asking above and beyond what we agree to, either. I know you can work and make more happen for our kids. I'll believe you really want this for our kids when you make the money to pay for them."

Wow. That is golden.

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you still did not answer if historically, you felt like a failure when she would bring requests you couldn't afford to provide.

Yes, I feel like a failure when she ask for things I cannot afford. I feel the same way when my kids express desire for things I can't afford. It is part and parcel of my shame-based existence.

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Do you refuse to not do that which you will resent?
No.

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Or do you refuse to not agree to anything either of you aren't enthusiastic about?

No, I will keep agreeing to things I resent.

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which was to keep hating yourself and loving your kids...and surviving your wife for another six years.

Exactly.

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So I hear you definitively saying that you will NOT allow any of your ENs to be met within the Union, doing acts of love for the Union...and that you focus on getting yours addressed separately from The Marriage.

Well, I don't really expect my needs to get met at all. But to the extent they do get met, then yes, I expect they will get met separately from The Marriage.

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Whoa. You want money spent on you, for you, for IB, to harm the marriage...to feed yourself what you are choosing to deprive yourself of within the marriage. How on earth do you do that emotional math?

It is easy. I was a math major. When things don't seem to add up, just add another dimension. wink

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Which is why they are crazy about you.

S15 had trouble getting up this morning. His Mom said "from now on, you must go to sleep earlier". He replied "but that is when Dad comes to my room (after his homework is done), and I like him coming to my room, and I don't want to kick him out".

So he does love me. And enjoys time with me. But I guess Dad will have to be the mature one and get out of his room earlier on weeknights.

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And saying a healthy "no" to your wife--maybe that's why you won't do it from love and respect...she, too, might become crazy about you.

Nah, no worries there. Our cooktop is dying. Down to 2 working coils. So for Hanukah, I decided to get Mrs. Hold a new cooktop. Found one very reasonably priced on Ebay. Won the auction last night. She was SO THRILLED this morning. She was literally jumping with joy. The only way she is happy with me is when I buy her something expensive. Makes me want to puke.

Which is OK. The only time I was thrilled with her was when she had sex with me. Which made her want to puke. So we are even.

Except that sex with her no longer thrills me. So there is no longer any way for her to motivate me to be thrilled with her. Which eliminates any interest I might have in motivating her to be thrilled with me.

LA, I don't want her to be crazy about me. I don't want her to love me. I want her to lust after me. And if she won't / can't (which seems to be the case), then I want her to hate me. As much as I hate her for not lusting after me. And as much as I hate myself for not being the object of her lust.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
So in whose eyes are/were you a failure? Yours? Mrs. Hold's?

Yes, exactly, both of ours.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:38 PM
Hold, you and your wife have your own crazy version of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe going on. Check that movie with Elizabeth Taylor out. Who knows it might make you laugh, cry, both.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:38 PM
Is assuming you are a failure in her eyes a DJ? Should you just be concentrating on WHY you are a failure in your own eyes?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:42 PM
I don't see the expense in the cooktop...I see you really seeing what she wanted the most and choosing that for your gift. You can DJ it another way...and you said you hadn't seen her delighted with you in a long time...

and she has been...and you refuse to acknowledge. Doesn't make it so, sir. Makes you just hiding it from you.

You can't motivate her delight, her being thrilled...you can be present and aware, and in reality that your choices ripple...that you don't control outcomes...only actions.

I know you don't want her to be crazy about you...so you continue to DJ, to not say "no" or make respectful boundaries...'cuz you don't want to be crazy about yourself, either. You don't want to soar...too scary. You want to keep her making you feel the routine, habitual feelings...failure, inadequate, rejected.

I know, I remember. I swore I wasn't doing it, either.

You don't control her choice to love you...you definitely have a part in her feeling loving feelings. Not all or nothing. And she does. She fears you as much as you fear her. She feels like a failure as often as you do. Rejected...and she sets herself for your rejection, time and time again. Reinforces she's right...

and so you both spin. Only takes one to stop the downward spiral.

Puking is a form of deep rejecting, I believe...it's how our bodies signal us when our emotions cannot be stuffed down anymore, when our minds can no longer justify and distract, and when our spirit, sickened from our self-abuse, finally rejects...because we really hate the spiral, the spin...not what we really want...not really...just what we continually do to self-sabotage.

Often, folks hate what they lust for...feel like slaves to our own lust...so you get a double win that way. If only she would change...

And she gets delighted with the way you love her, anyway. Yeah, she's the monster here...you betcha. She's the one who points out how others see you, like you...she shares. She didn't withhold her joy over your gift...alleviating something she was struggling with.

She meets your ENs for FC, DS...she acts out what you will not...what you dread...?

You were her hero this morning...maybe she thought she was thrilled WITH you. A real H would tell her your truth...that you are not and hate yourself for giving her the gift which gives her joy...and that you hate her and yourself. And you like it that way, want to keep it that way.

But then, to tell her is an act of intimacy...would lessen your feelings of rejection without you hinging telling her on her response. Instead of telling her what you are solely responsible for...your stuff.

You chose to give a loving gift without love. She doesn't know that. She felt loved, cherished, cared for and understood. That's her love language (and mine as well). You can continue to DJ it about money...and miss the symbols. On purpose. Keeps her the villain and you the martyr that way.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:57 PM
I never said she was the monster. Or the villain. For years I have said only that we are incompatible. She is a good person. I used to be a good person.

I understand I am the villain. Because I do what I do knowing it causes pain. To both of us. And I choose to do it anyway.

I am a cutter. Cutting my soul. I don't see myself ever stopping.

What I have stopped is being a real H to her. What I am doing is trying desperately to hide that fact. Makes it pretty stupid of me to admit it on a public forum.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
JM HOLD is talking about when he found out his wife, who had been managing their money, (she had that accounting degree after all) blew over 112K of his retirement assets, plus ran up all thier credit cards...in less than a year (BLEW THE MONEY ON NOTHING BUT JUNK) and hid all the reciepts from him.

Then, she kept lying to him until he found out the money was GONE!!!!

I would have divorced her back then. She will do nothing to pay any of it back. In fact, since then, she has forged his checks, stolen money from credit cards, opened her own credit cards that she ran up, and misused (overspending) his debit cards whenever he lets her have one for the day.

She is terrible.

Ahh, yeah I remember that. Yes, that's one area where trust is broken. BUT, it took a very long time for Hold to assert and put effort on his part in taking control of the money. He felt trapped or stuck or unable to "rock the boat" at the time because the "lack of sex" in his marriage at the time defined it for him.

Or rather gave Mrs Hold all that control. She sure has a lot of the blame, but Hold also has his part. But in the end of it all that effort to find blame, the issue was not immediately handled.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:08 PM
Actually, Hold, what you've done is find a *pseudo*-public forum where you can vent these emotions and to a certain extent, wallow in them. So you're still hiding the fact in your "real" life. That's one of the enticing things -- and thus one of the dangerous things -- about the internet. We can find places to express our "real selves" without any real danger - sure, there are people who will say nasty things to us, deserved or not, but we don't have to engage, we only have to take what we want from the internet experience.

I only hope that you are actually gaining something positive from the interactions here, and working up to some positive action in your life instead of just soaking in it.

I've been reading your thread for some time now, but really haven't had anything constructive to add. I sympathize with your angst, and feel anger on your behalf for the way your wife has apparently used you. I can empathize with your depression, too.

However, I also find myself wanting to give you advice one of my best friends gives me on occasion. An ex-marine, he rarely minces words. Here's what he tells me, verbatim. "You've had your three laps in the pity pool, missy, and you're getting wrinkly. Time to get out, I'll get your towel."

At some point, Hold, you really do have to *decide* you're done living life so negatively, and take a step in the other direction. You'll likely find you have people in your life who care about you and want to help, but they're waiting for you to take a step because they know it's something you have to do for yourself.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
After all the thousnds or millions of words here, the dynamic is very simple.

I was a failure at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I married her in the hope that copious sex with a beautiful woman would provide me with the confidence needed to succeed. It was a stupid idea and it is not surprising that it has failed.

She was supposed to be the cure for my unhappiness. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Happiness must come from within.

Now, she serves as a useful excuse for my failure.

If I were healthy, I would succeed at work. To provide a better future for my children. And our marriage would succeed or fail. But I would be happier either way.

However, I do not believe I can succeed. I was failing before I met her. Now I am older, tired, cynical, depressed and pessimistic. If I could not succeed then, why should I expect to succeed now?

On the other hand, I am confident that I can succeed at failure. So that is what I seek. What I work toward.

She is engaged in the same mechanism from the other side. She uses my lack of success and general wimpiness to excuse her failure to address my needs or do her internal work. Each of us finds it easier to blame the other than to work on ourself.

Both of us are familiar with and tolerant of failure / unhappiness. Hence we prefer the certainty of failure we can blame on our spouse. To trying and failing in a way that is purely personal.

Unless or until one of us is willing to risk more a personal failure. Neither of us has any chance of success.

As J_M said, it is all victim puke.

Part of that is explained in the book, No More Mr Nice Guy. I think you read it before. The Break Free Exercises in the book is VERY hard to do for Nice Guys (NG).

I too have thought that by having a great sex life with my wife, that I would have that magic to propel me to more achievements and successes.

Yet, despite having accomplishments, I still felt not good enough. And the more I want that sex to fix the feeling inside, the more I got frustrated when I was not getting the fulfillment in SF. I spent many years focusing on the lack of sex in my marriage, my unmet SF needs.

I even put less importance to finance because my mindset was that I could always make more. Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income. It also became more of a pressing matter when I realize that my earning potential is finite.

Anyway, many books and forums later, the NMMNG book had a line something about "I am the only person in the world responsible for my needs, no one else." I was totally against this thought in the beginning, especially towards SF. But I eventually come to realize the truth of that, and our sex life now is much better than what it was, but still have plenty of room for improvement.

It's been said many times here in MB that "change from within" and that is something I had to do, and left me with "hope" that wife would want to make changes for herself.

One more important point is that I change for my own reasons. And this lead me to be in the position to "choose" and be in the marriage because I want to; because I evaluate all the values is it, even when sex is one factor that is not near perfect, on the whole, it is acceptable to me.

Likewise, I am able to emotionally "let go" if my wife "chooses" not to be married with me.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:32 PM
Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN???????
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 08:44 PM
You're not the villain, either, Hold. You're two humans in a human marriage...each doing harm and love, working out your stuff.

Still a real H...and she's a real W. Her H. Your W.

I believe you stopped being the H you really liked being before...absolutely. What would you say are the key differences? You didn't have healthy boundaries before...and you aren't enforcing healthy boundaries now...that I can see. I know you see yourself as different, though...before, were you giving to get, to achieve balance, to get her to stop/start?

Incompatible? How very alike your issues are...as you've seen. Consider compatible dysfunction? Like Functional Dysfunction.

smile

You've succeeded every day, Hold, in many ways...and choose to focus on your lack. You know this...part of the choice to emotionally cut and do harm to yourself and others.


BUBBLES...

Do you remember I Love Lucy? One of the situational comedic themes she had going was financial infidelity. Portrayed as cute, entitled, attractive...full of funny justifications and assumptions. Since Shakespeare, most comedies are tragedies with timing.

Modeled wives as treating their husbands as alternately daddies and little boys...and growing up, I decided that was what love was...how women were supposed to act...saw it in my mothers and my father...wives pushing the financial limits like children...and calling their spouse juvenile.

Only my father was portrayed as the spend-thrift, the one always pushing the boundaries...and I married a shopaholic. Quite a mixed bag...certainly one attracts the other...to work it all out, over time, together.

And some do. And some gain forgiveness and live new...make new choices...and others repeat and repeat...until they stop (or don't)...

Gotta tell you...my false payoff was in the superiority of being a miser, better at money, and I got to manage my DH, shame him for his fiscal irresponsibility...what I mess I was and yet, least not that one way, eh?

He bounced checks and I didn't take away his check book. He didn't record atm withdrawals and I didn't take away his atm card...didn't brainstorm POJA with him...I, too, kept that addictive cycle going, playing my part, reaping my own twisted rewards.

I believe this is the sin of pride God speaks about. Not what we really want...very destructive and abusive, blocking our relationship with God in different ways. And with others. And does harm.

Which is why God made no one on this earth in more control of others...even though we can experience life as if they are...that we are done to...when in reality, we don't do what's only our part...eyes on the perp at all times.

So we repeat.

My answer to your question, Bubbles.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Incompatible? How very alike your issues are...as you've seen. Consider compatible dysfunction? Like Functional Dysfunction.

Yes, we are perfectly matched. Perfectly calibrated to push each others' buttons. Capable of tolerating indefinitely what others would find intolerable. Given how little we knew of one another before we got engaged, it is amazing that we found each other. It is as if each of our dysfunctions was screaming out to be joined to a person ideally situated to cause the other person maximum pain.

I imagine God was hoping we would choose to heal each other. That we would choose to stop causing the other pain. I guess God will have to be disappointed.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:28 PM
I wouldn't guess God. He's at work, with purpose and love.

Wouldn't it be terrifying if God wouldn't heal us until we earned his healing? What if he waited until we went first?

Even as you deny yourself joy, intimacy, harmony and fulfillment, so do you deny God. For he weeps when we weep, remember? Feels joy as we feel joy...in our relationship with him, he feels...

Can you imagine your children filled with such self-hatred, these wonderful creations of yours? To me, disappointment doesn't come close.

Old territory...I know. Already shared the impact of my previous self-hatred and how the consequences keep coming...and will come...not in my control.

It's like you both have discovered you have this disease and you stand looking at the other, the cure, and refusing it. You can't choose for her...

what is at the heart of this thread is your choice to not heal, anyway.

Healing enough to see you weren't worthy of hate at any time...all along. Just chose to experience life as if you were.

Unfathomable to me why when you knew better you chose not to do better. To reject joy (as you did this morning with your gift), to reject reality, to suppose it instead...

just so you can keep experiencing rejection with every breath.

I would love MrsHold to be brave and strong right now, come to MB, and hear if she is choosing not to heal, for those same reasons, too.

In the habit of pain...lots of threads here on MB about that habit, breaking it, changing marriages and lives. Different ways. So many choices.

My prayer remains constant...for your marriage to experience a clean slate, a rebirth, when you realize you fulfill your fears and they are still not real.

Inflecting more pain on yourself and your marriage when you fear pain is irrational...just shows you that's not what you really fear.

So rejection isn't what you fear (because you engineer it). So, is it to be loved, accepted and respected? Do you fear that? Because that's out of your control...always has been...others choose...and so many love, accept and respect who you are.

Do you fear loving, accepting and respecting yourself? Like a misstep you might accidentally take?

I'd have to consider Satan's work of tempting you to keep yourself in chains for he has a huge fear of you, if you break free.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
and so you both spin. Only takes one to stop the downward spiral.

There is no longer any way to stop the downward spiral. I cannot imagine ever choosing to stop rejecting her.

Even if she chose to stop rejecting me, I am no longer open to her. I won't allow her to stop rejecting me. I will withdraw so far she cannot reach me, and then blame her for falling short.

She can't win. Neither can I.

Just like I like it.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:54 PM
Wow, Hold. Sometimes I think we are scarily alike.
Posted By: celtic_twilight Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:54 PM
Hold, from what you have posted, your wife is adicted to spending. It doesn't make her a bad person, but she seems to have no control, even when you have POJAd an agreement, even when you don't have the money in the budget, even when she had to commit fraud to get the cheques/credit cards. MB won't work in the presence of an adiction.

Have you talked to your son about money? He is old enough, and at the stage where he should know what finance is available for his college choices. It is also pre-emptive, if Mrs. hold is suggesting something that's just not possible, then he will have the facts at his disposal to make a decision. I am not US based, but does he have an interest in courses where he could start off at a comunity college, and then transfer to a state college, or something like that? If he needs to get scholarships or work through college, then does he need to know that now?? I have a friend who lectures, and the kids who do well are the ones who understand how much this is costing their parents, and how much an education is worth. The ones who get everything handed to them end up with a harder path through life. By absolutely no means do I mean run down Mrs. Hold. Just discuss your sons options, what's available to spend, and what isn't. Sit him down and go through the family budget. Let him know you would love to buy him everything he wants!!! But you can't.

ETA, I have to agree with OH, you have a job! You've kept it for years! You're ahead of the game here. My DH hasn't worked in 9 years, though he is very very good with the children. If he had refused to be a SAHD, I don't know what I'd have done.

Edited again, sorry! I have got the idea from reading your posts over the years that you can't get a job that would keep your wife happy. No matter how much you earn, she seems to be able to waaay outspend it. This is JMO, and doesn't make her a bad person. Though it does make her mentaly ill.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:11 PM
MB worked in my marriage even with active addictions...difference was...we were in MC working to stop the addictions...

and we did. Radical honesty works even in the face of addiction.

I don't believe you, Hold...I don't believe you know what you'd do if your DW stepped up, took hold her power, centered herself in her limits and acted from love for you. I have no doubt she would have an entirely different experience of you...even if you didn't change.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:13 PM
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:29 PM
Quote
Radical honesty works even in the face of addiction.
Many posters here have told me to bag MBers until H gets into treatment for alcoholism. They're probably right but he denies the problem. Yet, I still try to work the program. Is that the definition of insanity? Maybe I have more in common with Mrs. Hold than Hold.

Quote
My DH hasn't worked in 9 years, though he is very very good with the children. If he had refused to be a SAHD, I don't know what I'd have done.

Well if you were really stupid like me, you would have just sucked up your resentment when he started moaning and groaning at 3PM..where are you? I have to get out of the house. You have to leave work early and come home...etc. AND...left me with the bulk of the housework too. And you would have sat on that resentment and let it simmer for years and years and years.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 01:23 AM
http://www.boughtoutandspent.com/

http://www.moneyharmony.com/book.html

A few books I came across while surfing.

Hold...is there any chance she has taken this as far as shoplifting or stealing from anyone other than you?
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 04:17 AM
Wow, HOTI;

That is about as thick of fog babble that I have ever heard on this site. Trust me, if you were rationalising an A (instead of the self hate obsession thingy..on and on) people here would sniff it out in a minute and cook your can about it.

What kind of mother spends her family into the poorhouse, and wants to spend $5k on an non imparative activity for her son? Tens of thousandds of dollars this woman has frauded from her FAMILY fund. For what?
What kind of mom spends her family into the poorhouse?
The kind of mother who is married to a father who enables good ol' ma to put their children's futures at stake.

She is an addict-- hello-- mentally ill. And she has found, obviously her perfect match. Yeah, I know that is harsh- but just go back about a thousand fogspeak rants and see what I and others here can see. People are telling you here YOU have an issue, and you just ignor it and continue on.

So, can you budget an alcoholics booze? No, you insist they get off the sauce. If you love them or your family-- (yeah I know, you hate so and so and yourself..blah blah blah)
If you think your kids are going to love an appreciate you (with this card house of lies, addiction and general dysfunction) you are wrong. I bet your children are smart as whips. The best thing you could do it to
INSIST ON TREATMENT FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR WIFE.


Does your family know what has happened? About all the money, embezeling and debt?
Does hers? Why not?
Why is she allowed to wheel around like "bigshot Molly" and screw her children's futures over (note: I am not even addressing your future- you are an adult and if you want to let her pi$$ it away that is your choice)

I feel sorry for your kids. They will be the ones to suffer in this economy (your kids fafsa is based on YOUR credit ratings) You let this go on for TEN YEARS?

You are older, I believe I read. Why did you not do an intervention before now? sex? fear? you hate X,Y,Z...?

You come here to "vent" and browbeat yourself- but nothing but fog and dust ever really happens. That is not MB. You know that, you write well and I can tell you are smart.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 04:58 AM
I agree with what Barbie said. Why not take control and quit giving your wife money? Then force her into treatment. Barbie is right, your wife wants to prance around like "Big Shot Molly"> but it is all fake. Your wife has damaged the family, the kids, and you. And you sit around and take it. I have asked this 100 times from you HOLD. Why not confront your wife and take full control of the finances.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.

Oh Hold. I'm sorry.

I understand these feelings--I have not lived there as long as you have, but I have certainly been in that place.

You deserve love, hold. You really do.

I still hope your wife is the one to give you love--but I'm quite sure that you need to start giving it to yourself... with believing you deserve it, because you do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 02:57 PM
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.
Posted By: GBH Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Last year, I was thinking about buying a flat screen hi def TV for the house for Christmas (a present for everyone). I would have loved to have a 52" really fancy big name brand model (even though I dont' want TV..LOL) but did some research and found a lesser brand, 37" for something far less than $500 (vs the $2500 on the TV I was drooling over...

Then I did some more research and realized I could purchase it through my employee's program with several different retailers and get a 10% discount.

So...I did it.

But then I went into my online banking and set up automatic payments over 4 months that fit my budget and allowed me to pay off the TV. I got 90 days interest free so I did wind up paying some interest on the 4th month.

Still, it *was* an impulse purchase and I've been known to do that from time to time.

That is hardly an impulse buy from my standards. smile You did the research and got a good value. That is smart shopping. An impulse buy would be buying a big-screen TV, without the wife's knowledge, when you don't have two nickels to rub together, and bringing it home, only to find out that it doesn't fit through the door of your mobile home! That is what my nephew did a few years back. The TV went back to the store that night.

Quote
I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.

It is called separating wants from needs. It is very simple; no rocket science required. My nephew did not need that TV; they had a perfectly functional TV already. He just saw it in the store and thought to himself, "I want that" with no consideration of whether they could really afford it, much less get it through the front door!

Right now, I drive a compact sedan that has 130K miles on it and is low to the ground and as my knees continue to age, it is difficult to get into and out of. I want one of those crossovers like a Toyota Rav 4 or a Honda CRV or maybe a Lexus (one can dream, right?). They're higher off the ground, and the all-wheel drive would be nice in the winter. But I don't need it; my current car gets me around just fine. So I keep driving it, watch enviously as other people drive their fancy new cars, then laugh to myself because my little sedan is paid for.

I also wouldn't mind having an iPhone and getting all those cool apps. But my cell phone, which I can use to make and receive calls, is all I need. A new iPhone would not only be expensive to buy, it would be expensive to keep up as the monthly charge would be far greater than the $32/month plan I have now (limited minutes and no texting).

There is no one on the face of this planet that needs an iPhone. Or an expensive entertainment system. Or a Lexus SUV. Or a McMansion. Or fancy parties for their children. The list goes on. It's all a matter of priorities.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.

Hold,

I so know that feeling and fearing rejection. But I was wrong in my thinking and belief in that regard, and those fears were mostly based on how I was not accepting of myself, including my flaws, and imperfection.

One of the points in NMMNG was being int he mindset of I as an adult person has absolute control of what I want and what I choose to believe in my life. First, it is ok to be me, just the way I am. Be it horny and wanting sex, be it believing in a sexually fulfilling marriage, be it conservative in financial matters, be it heavier in weight to the so called ideal weight. These are all my choices for me.

Now as far as "fearing" rejection in sex with the wife. This was a struggle for me to get off that thinking. I told thw fei how I felt, and her answer was that she was not rejecting me, it is not me, it is her. She don't feel like it, she is tired, etc. Even though I hear her, I still felt and took it as a personal rejection. WHY?

WHY? The answer NMMNG gave to me were Abundance, and Validation. Sex was not in abundance in my thinking, simply because I "let go" of the responsibility of meeting that need by my wife. Healthy Masturbation (HM) solves the "scarcity" of sex.

There was a point where I thought that HM was not right in the M, but that thinking was leading me in the position of entitlement and expectation. I also had feelings of "toxic shame" or some semblance of "failure" when I had to resort to HM to get sex in my marriage. But going back to the original point in NMMNG, "I am the only person in this world responsible for meeting my needs." This was against my belief in marriage, because I "expected" and felt "entitled" that sex will happen in the marriage.

I remove that expectation and entitlement. I introduce abundance via HM. And what sex happens in my marriage, is from my choice, and her choice. It is what makes the marriage. I let her know how I feel, and what I want, but it is her choice to meet my needs. I am no longer dependent on anyone to meet my sexual needs. It removes my effort "to try and fix" and instead focus my effort on improving myself and "let the marriage grow."

That said, there are still times that I fall into the "spiral thinking of withdrawing and brooding and feeling depressed and generating resentment." It is my right to "feel" any of those. And I find ways to express them. And I also know that my feelings change, so I find ways to cope and consciously put my effort to feel something more positive. Or enforce and remind myself that "I am ok just the way I am."

I also had to start believing and living that "I am a likable and lovable" person. I was always my harshest critique, because I was a perfectionist and put higher standards for myself. I felt such a failure despite many accomplishments, and many goals achieved. I was not "content" with myself despite the fact that my kids are thrilled with the time and effort and attention I give to them.

During one of those radical honest conversations I have with my wife, we told each other what we appreciate from our spouse, and my wife said a litany of things that I do and don't think much of them because "I expected them". But she said that those are likable and lovable qualities, and when I do go in that withdrawal and brooding mode, my wife told me it is as she is punishing them (her and the kids).

After that, I realize that I do not need to hear such appreciation and gratitude "to feel good, to feel appreciated." I have the ability to self-gratitude because I know what I do not just for myself, but for my wife and kids. Many call it ego, and I realize that many people can't handle my ego--but I think it is healthy for my sake and my marriage and my family to live in the mindset that I am worthy and those around me are blessed to have me in their life.

I use to have thoughts just as you are now Hold. How much a failure I was, how unlovable and unlikable and unworthy I am. I navel gazed and realizes that those list of expectations I had for myself needed to be re-examined by my adult self. Meaning, that I have the power to choose which values and beliefs I want in my life from today and the rest of my life.

So I chose to "lead" my life as how I defined it. How I chose which values are for me and which beliefs are not for me. And lead I do, and my wife chooses to follow. It's her choice.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 05:44 PM
YAY, HOLD!! dance2

Two steps in one day!

Be proud for taking those steps, and savor how good it feels to have taken them!!

Yes, there are always Eeyore days, but Pooh days are good, too. smile
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 07:38 PM
Yay!!!!

Have a wonderful wonderful day, Hold!

:-)

So happy that today was a good day.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 08:47 PM
Smiling at Hold...:)
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 08:56 PM
Oh, Hold...kudos on choosing differently. My belief is that last night you set up this morning...radical honesty is really sexy...saying no is sexy...

and then saying yes is...

thank you for opening yourself up to that experience. Kudos to your wife, too, for both of her parts.

laugh

And here I would have thought a couple of years ago, that since you said no the night before to her spending idea, that for sure she'd have shut you down harshly this morning.

Even while you experience your wife as not changing...she changes.

As do you. Maybe you're just catching up with yourself.

laugh

LA
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/18/09 11:39 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 04:45 PM
Spent the weekend in Florida. Had to go to a meeting on Friday to help my Dad with a legal problem and then the storm kept me stuck down there until Sunday night.

Friday night we went to a wine tasting event with a bunch of their friends. Saturday I tried and failed to get home, then we went for pizza with another couple they know.

I had a great time with my parents. We have not been alone together in probably 15+ years (since my son was born). It was nice to have time to myself with them. So in the end it wasn't so bad to be stuck in Florida an extra day.

Wishing everyone the best for the coming holidays.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.
faint

hold, I gotta tell ya, I just quit coming to your thread; just wandered in here by accident, not expecting anything but more misery.

Just...wow.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.
faint

hold, I gotta tell ya, I just quit coming to your thread; just wandered in here by accident, not expecting anything but more misery.

Just...wow.

Same here Cat. I would have missed this entirely if you had not quoted it.

Good for you Hold!
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.

OH, most people don't understand budgeting. We have what I view as a severe lack of fiscal conservatism in this country. After all, some 70+ percent of our GDP is derived from our spending habits (problem).

Most folks associate a budget with the negative connotation of limits, or as you said, discipline. Does budgeting require discipline? Yes and no. Yes in that any plan requires a willingness to stick to the fundamentals of the plan. That said, any well designed budget accounts for both wants and needs - it recognizes that we all have real needs, as GBH said, but we all also have wants - and any budget should reflect both realities. A budget that overstates needs and understates wants will never work long term (though budgets can be altered temporarily to reach certain goals). I've read a TON of financial planning books, mostly because one of my hobbies is the study of economics and finance (my major in college was Securities Analysis/Finance within the Business Admin track). I own precious few of these books as most I don't feel do a good enough job to warrant owning. I can recommend a few books if you're interested. One of the best overall books for budgeting is All Your Worth here:

http://www.amazon.com/All-Your-Worth-Ultimate-Lifetime/dp/0743269888/ref=pd_sim_b_1

The key concept is that every budget has to reflect our being human, and therefore every budget has to have a healthy balance of wants and needs. For instance, if too much of the monthly budget is going toward real needs, then the family members will inevitably feel as though they are missing out on certain aspects of life (wants such as vacations, eating out, toys, games, or whatever else the family in question views as their wants/luxuries). The book I've recommended doesn't just talk about budgeting, it also talks about the human component, and how to achieve a good balance of wants and needs financially.

Ever wonder why one family that makes 75k a year seems to live well and really enjoy life while the family that lives right next door and makes 150k a year always seems to be struggling? It's all about balance. High level, All Your Worth will teach you a model that breaks down as follows: 50% needs, 30% wants, 20% savings. I won't say any more than that as what goes into those categories is what the entire book is all about. Can't recommend it highly enough for those struggling with their finances due to being out of balance.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:43 PM
Hope everyone had a great holiday weekend.

After 2 trips to Home Depot, 2 hours with son helping me get the cutout the exact size, and 3 hours of using the dremel tool to widen the punchout in the junction box, Mrs. Hold's new cooktop got installed Saturday. Felt proud since it took me almost 8 hours to finish. But in the end it seems to work fine.

Although will take some getting used to because instead of setting "6" on our old cooktop meaning that the coils were 60% as hot as on "high", for the new cooktop "6" means that the coils are on full blast for 60% of the time (roughly on for 12 seconds then off for 8). Glad I warned Mrs. Hold because I knew it would freak her out when the burner turned itself off while she was cooking. I had trouble judging how long to cook the pancakes Sunday morning (I figured that is the appropriate way to break in a new cooktop). Mrs. Hold had trouble figuring out how long to pan fry the cutlets Sunday night. But I am confident eventually we will get used to how to keep the pan at the appropriate temperature.

Between getting a $1200 cooktop for $300 on Ebay and not paying to have it installed, this was a huge bargain!
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:48 PM
Got to love a bargain. Good work all around, Hold.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:56 PM
Wow, what a bargain Hold. I love bargains!

HH, thanks for that book recommendation. Son is placing his next term's textbook order on Amazon today and if our library doesn't have this book, I will add it to the order.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 04:11 PM
Had a very nice weekend in NYC with Mrs. Hold and the kids. Watching the ball drop from Central Park is much more comfortable than waiting 6 - 8 hours in Times Square. And they do a huge fireworks show in Central Park at midnight (lasted 20 minutes). Amazing to hear the booms bounce back on forth off the tall buildings on both sides of the park.

Took the kids to 2 comedy shows (not standup but humorous). I think they liked being treated like "grown ups".

No sex but that is to be expected given my decisions and behaviors. At least we had good parking Karma - found a free spot Wednesday and a meter spot on Saturday so it only cost $6.50 to park in Manhattan for 4 days!

And the good karma also applied in CT. Got up at 6 am Saturday to drive S15 to 8:00 am basketball practice. We had been complaining for days that the coach scheduled that practice. But thank God he did. I dropped off S15, then went home to get clean socks for Mrs. Hold. House was frigid. Apparently we ran out of oil even though we pay to have them refill monthly. Called the office and they sent someone out right away. Much better to discover the lack of oil at 9:00 am Saturday when everyone is working than at 6:00 pm on Sunday night. Came home to a toasty warm house yesterday afternoon.

Hope everyone had a good weekend and best wishes to all for the New Year.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 06:39 PM
Came home to a toasty warm house yesterday afternoon.

Good! Versus busted pipes, right? Whew - smile

Did you stay in a hotel with your family?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Good! Versus busted pipes, right? Whew - smile

Exactly, thank the Lord for Saturday basketball practice during vacation.

Quote
Did you stay in a hotel with your family?

Nope. Sis and BIL live in NYC, and they typically spend vacation week in Florida. So we typically crash at their place.

That is why the weekend was so great. No rent. Only $6.50 to park. NYE in Central Park is free. The improv show was $15 pp and the Liar's Show was $12 pp. Even the all you can eat buffet was only $20 pp (my buddy is a member of a private club and they put on an amazing spread and he can invite guests so the 8 of us went). Then both families went to a 3rd family who has an apt in NYC and spent the day together and ordered pizza for dinner. So a fairly reasonably priced weekend in NYC with 3 nights "out on the town". We like to take the kids into the city so they get used to buses and subways and traffic and jammed sidewalks. We don't want to raise "bumpkins" even though we live in the woods on a road with no sidewalks or street lights.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 09:04 PM
Parking in NYC: $6.50.

Two shows in NYC: $27 / person.

All-you-can-eat buffet: $20 / person.

Spending NYE with the family and watching the ball drop live from Central Park without maxxing out the credit cards: PRICELESS!!!

Yay for you!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 10:55 PM
I love a good deal! But HOLD I feel badly that you are saving money that your wife gets her paws on and spends!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 02:43 PM
Bubbles:

I always appreciate your concern for me. Thank you. But I am choosing this. I want to be with my children. We had a great weekend together in NYC. I had a nice chat with D12 on the way home from swimming practice yesterday, and we walked inside together. S15 helped me set up the PS3 so he and I do not have to fight over Call of Duty time. Much more fun than setting it up alone in my separate apt while he plays at his Mom's. This is what I want.

And just think how much less money Mrs. Hold gets to spend than if I were not so depressed and motivated to maximize my earning potential. She too is paying a heavy price for what she gets.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 03:02 PM
Hold, I love it when you are the Anti-Eeyore!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:15 PM
hold, I have known a lot of men who were so discouraged by they wives that they earned so much less money than they could have, and sometimes intentionally, just to punish their wives.
Posted By: Nanowritersix Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
hold, I have known a lot of men who were so discouraged by they wives that they earned so much less money than they could have, and sometimes intentionally, just to punish their wives.

rotflmao

Too bad they didn't know about MB so they could have fixed their marriage instead of cutting off their nose to spite their face!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:54 PM
Thanks Jayne. Everything is relative. I understand I am seeking secondary payoffs, which is not healthy. Last night I played Call of Duty until very late. In the kitchen on the new HDTV I got Mrs. Hold for her birthday. Well, at least that is the cover story. We all know I really got it so I could play PS3 on it. wink But Mrs. Hold asked several times for a new tv for the kitchen and the old one made a funny buzzing noise that annoyed her as well as being 30 years old and huge and analog and ugly so she is happy to tell herself I got the tv for her. And I got a combo tv/dvd player so she (who watches hundreds of netflix) can watch her DVDs while cooking for the kids without a separate box and more wires cluttering up the kitchen.

Mrs. Hold spent the evening after the kids went to bed alone in our bedroom. She would prefer me to be there. She would prefer I spend time with her rather than the PS3. She would prefer that I make moves on her when I buy her a present so she can consent to sex and then tell herself she is being a good wife. I prefer that things not be arranged the way she prefers.

So for now I choose PS3 and living in denial to working on myself for a better life and a better marriage. I tell myself there is no possibility for improvement. And I am proved correct. I understand it is unhealthy to take more satisfaction from being "right" about my failure than from trying to be successful. But for now, that is how I choose to behave.

Originally Posted by nanowritersix
Too bad they didn't know about MB so they could have fixed their marriage instead of cutting off their nose to spite their face!

Not everyone who knows about MB fixes their marriages. I find going through life noseless (or more correctly, with less and less nose as I slice parts off) is less painful than what it was like constantly trying and failing to improve my marriage. If anyone is going to cut slivers off my body on a daily basis, I prefer it be me!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 05:36 PM
Hold, it sounds like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Your wife may be in the cycle of punishing you for your limiting her spending, or your income; she may be oblivious.

As I said above, and in other threads, I have seen a fair number of marriages destroyed by wives who thought sex 4 or 5 times a year was normal, and acted amazed when their husbands walked out.

If your wife is pleased with the holidays, the weekend, the new stove, went to the bedroom, and wanted you to be there, it sounds like you blew an opportunity to connect with her. You are rejecting her attempt to connect. You must be living in past resentment, rather than the present.

My concurrent response in another thread today:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2299147#Post2299147
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
I agree with what Barbie said. Why not take control and quit giving your wife money? Then force her into treatment. Barbie is right, your wife wants to prance around like "Big Shot Molly"> but it is all fake. Your wife has damaged the family, the kids, and you. And you sit around and take it. I have asked this 100 times from you HOLD. Why not confront your wife and take full control of the finances.


It is because the effort to confront, the will to overcome what trepidation Hold have has to come from "within" himself.

And despite him wanting such changes, he procrastinates and continues to adhere to the "fear" as a validation for staying in the unhealthy and miserable state of his marriage.

It is up to Hold himself to put effort to such changes. Without that, he will be in the same situation as was since 8 years ago?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
If your wife is pleased with the holidays, the weekend, the new stove, went to the bedroom, and wanted you to be there, it sounds like you blew an opportunity to connect with her. You are rejecting her attempt to connect. You must be living in past resentment, rather than the present.

Yes, exactly. I am living in past resentment. I am comfortable there. I am not comfortable living in the present and trying to connect with her. Too much risk of rejection. She rejected me every night and every morning over the weekend. Maybe she wanted me last night. Maybe not. I don't want to know, because the odds are not in my favor.

If she wanted me last night, most likely it was to lie next to her silent and unmoving. Maybe hold my hand. And then roll over and go to sleep. I do not want that. Without the sex, I find the night together in bed painful rather than pleasant. I am not going to put myself through a painful process just so she can feel connected to me. If she wants me to connect with her, she needs to make that process less painful for me. Which means LOTS more sex. I know it doesn't work that way. I know the SF comes after meeting needs and eliminating love busters. I know I should meet her ENs and hope that motivates her to want to reciprocate. BTDT. Homey don't play that game no mo.

I do not expect my decision to produce a happy marriage or a happy life for me. But it is less painful than back when I was actively trying to meet her needs. I believe that is the best I can hope for. I am aiming to be proved correct. Given all the rejection and failure in my past, I like being able to attain my goals. Even if they are negative ones.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
And just think how much less money Mrs. Hold gets to spend than if I were not so depressed and motivated to maximize my earning potential. She too is paying a heavy price for what she gets.


Isn't that just some passive-aggressiveness on your part. You see the less money you earn as a form of punishment for your wife, instead of you taking absolute control and enforcing boundaries about money and finance?

And as for "depressed and motivated" part, you "let go" of your own free will and control of your happiness based on what your wife does? You put your own happiness 'dependent' on whether you wife meets your needs or not.

I know it's a huge mind hurdle for someone who thinks and values sex as the ultimate validation of love / care / want.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by Still_JM
It is up to Hold himself to put effort to such changes. Without that, he will be in the same situation as was since 8 years ago?

Exactly. I fully expect to be in the same situation 5 years from now. Then we shall see what I choose. I may choose to stay. I may be too old and too tired and too afraid and too set in my ways to summon the effort to change. If so, it will be because I chose this unhealthy and miserable existence. I recognize that. It is on my head.

Originally Posted by Still_JM
Isn't that just some passive-aggressiveness on your part.

Yes, exactly. I am too wimpy to be overtly aggressive. So I am passive-aggressive instead. Undoubtedly that plays a part in my wife not finding me sexually attractive. Still, knowing that is not enough to motivate me to change.

Originally Posted by Still_JM
you "let go" of your own free will and control of your happiness based on what your wife does? You put your own happiness 'dependent' on whether you wife meets your needs or not.

Yes, of course I do. I do not want to take responsibility for my life. I would rather put it on her shoulders. Naturally, she resents that, as she should.

Not saying I am mature. I am a mess. And I have given up hope of ever not being a mess. Which pretty much dooms me to continue being a mess. Yikes, look how quickly I fall back to full eeyore mode.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
She rejected me every night and every morning over the weekend. Maybe she wanted me last night. Maybe not. I don't want to know, because the odds are not in my favor.

So you broke your vow to not ask for SF from MrsHold then, six times over the weekend?

I was going to point out that when you invited her (walked past her naked) she loved SF with you. Is that what you meant by she rejected you Friday, Saturday and Sunday, twice a day?

LA
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:02 PM
I'm still letting myself get rejected Hold. I lay in bed for 30 min. and finally got up and went down to the couch again to read until I could fall asleep. The cycle just repeats itself once again. Of course she woke up and asked where I was going and said I could turn the light on and read while she slept. WTF??? She knew exactly what was goint on and this morning she wouldn't even look at me.

I have the same thoughts Hold. I wonder if by the time the kids are out, am I going to repress my libido for so long that it will vanish and all I'll have is resentment and will not even care to get out of the M, because I really don't care to have SF at that point with anyone from how repulsive I feel about myself in the SF department.

Face it, some women are like this, just like some men will be repeat cheaters or they'll do their own thing forever without thought to their Ws after their W tried and tried and eventually walked out on them.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
So you broke your vow to not ask for SF from MrsHold then, six times over the weekend?

We spent time in bed each night and morning, because my Sis and BIL have a typical NYC apartment and there was no place else to be while the kids were sleeping in the only other 2 rooms than to be together in the master bedroom.

She made it very clear by rolling away from me, placing pillows between us, and other actions that she was not interested in sex despite the very enjoyable weekend. NYE was very cold and we spent 2 hours outside. We all came back freezing. Mrs. Hold made it clear we were not going to "snuggle for warmth".

In the past, I might have "asked" by rolling toward her, placing my arm over her shoulder while lying next to her, etc. Maybe my hand would "wander". Sometimes I would even summon the courage to verbally ask if she was in the mood (although I know most women find that terribly unattractive, Mrs. Hold has made clear that she prefers an "ask" rather than a "take subject to dispossession"). My actions would give her the chance to move my hand where she wanted it.

I don't do that any longer. Mostly I face away from her. If I face toward her, my hands usually stay on my side of the wall of pillows, comforters, etc. If she moves toward me, my hand may go over her shoulder but it no longer wanders.

Her rejections are subtle. But very real. Close to 2 decades of honing the "radar" to determine whether there is any chance that an "ask" might get a yes have taught me to detect the unmistakable sign that asking would be futile. To me, her displaying those signs is rejection. She knows how I react when we spend pleasant time together. She knows how much I want her. She doesn't have to say the word "no" to communicate her message quite clearly.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:37 PM
Seems to me, Hold, that MrsHold meets your EN for Resentment really well...

she works really hard to prove all your assumptions true so you can continue to be right instead of happily married.

She's tenacious, unstoppable, in communicating her rejection to you without words...yours or hers...a rejection artist.

You are so good with words, Hold, probably because you fear hers so much...and she asked for your words, to hear your stuff...and you don't do that because that's where you've been shot down, tormented and denied for years...

and what you fear isn't real in the way that you experience rejection, without words, anyway.

You've perfected your Catch-22, Hold. It's amazing...you are an exceedingly accomplished rejection artist.

And MrsHold holds that mirror for you. She works really hard to ensure you will only see her rejection to protect yourself.

She's very much your ally and accomplice in rejection.

You've mentioned her adroit use of bedclothes to keep and ensure distance...I haven't asked before...does she do this on both sides of herself and at her head, too, like a sleeping nest? Or only delineating your space from hers, period...wide open at the feet, her side of the bed and the head of the bed?

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:00 PM
Hold, I've had a hard time pinpointing what bothers me most about your situation, and I think it's that you don't seem to care about your own mental health. I mean...I get why you feel the need to stay for another 6 years. What I don't get is why you lean towards passive aggressiveness versus O&H. I mean...even if being O&H doesn't improve your marriage, at least you'd be true to yourself and in a better, more 'pure' state of mind when the time comes to decide, 6 years from now.

Choosing to be passive aggressive for the next 6 years makes it seem as though you have already decided that you're mental health is dispensable, disposable, and of little consequence - that your personal integrity is of little matter. It seems like you've already chosen to sabotage your chances of being healthy enough to move on.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:01 PM
Hi Mud,

Let me tell you there were many nights I would approach my H for sex and he would "not want it" and I would STOMP out of the bedroom to sleep in the guest room and cry.

It was about a year at that stage. The stage when I did not know what to do "after that" to find the solution. There is a solution beyond that point. I am here to tell you about it. But only if she loves you enough to help find it.

What turned the corner for us is when I made a Dr appt with our Dr to see what was up with my husband/s libido. I never felt such hatred toward me for doing that. He told me to never never never ever do that again. The Dr was going to prescribe Viagra, other than that my H was fine. He does have high cholesterol though now.

Then the other turning point was me telling H I was stymied to find a solution and could not live like this anymore. I told him to take a couple days, and think about the problem of lack of sex....with me and come up with a good solution to save our marriage and make us both happy.

The next morning he came to me and told me the solution.

This is sort of how he worded it, " I think this will work. Whenever you want sex, ask me, and I will provide it. Every day if you want it. " I asked, "What about if you do not want sex when I ask?"

He says, "If I dont want sex when you ask, I will provide it for you">

I asked, "You mean if I asked you for sex every day, you could come thru for me?"

He said, "YES">

(You have to know that I accept great hand action and sex toy pleasure as sex so that we have flexibility, as long as I get the big O I am fine)

Then, I tested him out for two weeks asking almost every day. (in a nice cute way of course)

He did what he promised. Every time.

I learned to ask and he learned to give.

We worked it out. You can too. Ask your wife what she would suggest to save your marriage and so the marriage does not become sexless.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:20 PM
Bubbles,

Thanks, we've tried just that. We also tried:

If I wear one of these two night gowns. I got excited a couple of days later when she came out of her closet wearing it. Shot down. "I can wear whatever I want and it shouldn't mean a thing."

If I shut the door (we do this maybe 4 nights out the week any way, but what the hell). Shot down the next night. "I shut the door so the light will not bother ds when he's trying to sleep."

If I come to bed naked (only happened 3 nights in the heat of the summer) 3rd night got shot down. "We did it the last two nights." Now she's back to pjs.

THE BIG ONE: "Ask me and I will never refuse again." Bubbles, I got shot down the very first time, got the courage to ask again, shot down. Lol and behold, got the courage to ask again, shot down. The 3rd time I flipped out, she appologized and said yes she was confusing in the past and is still giving me mixed words and actions.

Reading Loving's post woke me up a little. I don't want this resentment people, that's why I came here in the first place. That last THE BIG ONE, was just in the last 3 months, and hurt very bad. She knows I'm vulnerable and yet she does that. It is even more painful than when she went wayward. It's been roughly 8 years and the pain now seems more painful than then, I think mostly because I figured "it happens" and she still wanted the M and so did I. Just the length of time this has gone on has worn me down. Yet again today, I got hit on by an attractive woman- no thankyou!!! I'll deal with it another way. Atleast I've got my looks going for me.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:27 PM
MUD, you are getting so close to the solution! I can tell you from experiance.

(I did not know this witch of yours went wayward, man that is bad, she has sex with others but not you, that is creepy)

Ride it out, the conflict now. Make her put in writing that if you ask for sex in any way she will provide it with hand, mouth, or otherwise.

Accept a hand job when she does not want the whole thing. Teach her how to please you with hands and mouth so she has a "choice".

The little witch probably used hands, mouth and other things on her other lover. I dislike these cheaters so much.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:57 PM
She has done the hand, mouth etc. She's not averse to that. It's the trouble to do it, I think, that gets to her. Mel had said she might love me, but not in love with me. I know what she means, and honestly if how much I've put in she still feels that way she can find someone who she will be in love with. She knows how much I've changed for our M, and acknowledges the pain she's caused, but she is so so reactionary. We'll SF and then she slides b/c she thinks I should be happy for x amount of days or something. I appreciate the effort, but I want my confidence back. Truly if I had what I had for the first 5 years of our M confidence wise, I could handle rejection again, but not at this point.

The writing it down is a fantastic idea and we did it, she scribbled fast and furious and in anger. She said, "Do you want me to write it down?" I called her bluff and said yes. She wigged out and scribbled in huge writing. I threw it away b/c she was so angry when she did it and I felt bad for calling her bluff. I think if we sat down and we talked and wrote it down in love, I could accept it. The only problem is now I'll have back up and she will hate it with the demons of hell if I pulled it out, so I'll ponder that some more thanks.

Yeah, it was tough and very odd. I don't have that puking feeling anymore when I think about it. Vomit would just come, never had such weird feelings before and worked very very hard at putting it out of my head, so don't make me vomit with the, "she probably did it with other men." It was one OM, and it torments her if those years are brought up, and she has never disclosed. I'm ok, just want a great M, not an average normal one. I don't strive for normal.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:25 PM
In one of the other threads about relationship books, I mentioned a book I found at a beach house that we rented in 2008. The author and her husband had rented it not long before, and she had left several copies of her book, "The 10-Minute Sexual Solution" there. I was skeptical, but curious, of such a short book, but it was buy a clinical psychologist who specializes in sexual problems, more than just marriage. It was actually pretty good, a lot like MB: cut through and skip past all the causation, and get to solving the problems by taking a set of steps in a new direction.

I posted this in the Low SF Desire thread, too, since TheMud and HOTI are posting both places.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
You've mentioned her adroit use of bedclothes to keep and ensure distance...I haven't asked before...does she do this on both sides of herself and at her head, too, like a sleeping nest? Or only delineating your space from hers, period...wide open at the feet, her side of the bed and the head of the bed?

How did you know? The covers are all toward me. Generally part of her body remains uncovered (which part varies). No covers on the side toward the edge of the bed. Pillows piled high toward me. Low toward the edge of the bed.

For years she said this was about my breath. I used every technique I could find to deal with this. Brush teeth, tongue and roof of mouth. Floss. Mouthwash (tried many kinds, herbal as well as commerical). Chew gum all day. For several years I avoided any food that contained onions or garlic or scallions or cruciferous vegetables for fear it would taint my breath. Even when the smell was not bad she would complain about the volume of air I expel (I am a mouth breather). We have a ceiling fan that is on every night so she can feel the breeze but she cannot tolerate the feel of my breath on her skin. I sleep with silicone inserts in my nostrils to control snoring. They help reduce the volume of air problem because I breath more through my nostrils and less through my mouth. Still, the pillows are piled up toward me.

Despite my voluminous posting, I no longer come here and document each and every episode of rejection. I mentioned last weekend's rejection only in the context of justifying my conclusion that frequent requests on my part would be met with frequent rejection. The evidence for that is overwhelming, and not only in the distant past but recently as well.

She is generally OK if I move my head toward her thigh while facing the tv so she knows that there is nothing sexual intended and I am just looking for Affection. But if my hand moves toward her from my side of the bed it frequently gets swatted away before I can get near her, even if it is aimed at a non-erogonous zone. Except her elbow. She has a very pointed bony elbow. Unlike the rest of her body which is soft and round and volunptuous. We have a standing joke when she wears a short sleeved nightie that she is flaunting her incredible elbows. And I make a big deal of finding them irresistible - unlike all those soft fleshy parts elsewhere. She is usually pretty good about allowing me to briefly fondle her elbow and verbally sing its praises.

Originally Posted by Soolee
Choosing to be passive aggressive for the next 6 years makes it seem as though you have already decided that you're mental health is dispensable, disposable, and of little consequence - that your personal integrity is of little matter. It seems like you've already chosen to sabotage your chances of being healthy enough to move on.

You describe how I feel perfectly. I have given up on ever being mentally healthy.

I feel like my life is already over and I am just waiting for it to end. Trying to keep my job until the kids graduate college and can live their own lives. I am not preparing myself for the next relationship because I do not expect to have a next relationship. What would be the point? I don't want to have more kids. I will never marry again because I am terrified of the prospect that even if I somehow magically found a woman willing to have sex with me, the sex would stop as soon as I said "I do". What exactly is there to move on TO? The only point of leaving Mrs. Hold is so I don't have to look into the face of the person who rejected me all those years. But we all know that is not a real solution. Because I will still be looking at that face. Every time I look in the mirror.

Thjere is no point in trying to convince me not to be eeyore. I am determined to remain eeyore. I am sorry I responded to jayne with more than "thanks".
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:27 PM
thanks!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 10:26 PM
In the vein of LAs frequent suggestion that I be open to change in Mrs. Hold:

Both D12 and S15 will need oral surgery in the coming few years. Both have impacted wisdom teeth that will need to come out. Upon Mrs. Hold hearing this news, she called me to discuss how we would pay for these procedures and whether finances would affect the timing. I repeat: she called me BEFORE scheduling the procedures or giving consent to the dentists to do the work.

As it happens, we will need to review the procedures with our medical insurer and then decide whether to handle the cost through dental insurance or by increasing our flexible spending account. In any event, the procedures cannot be done before July when our firm's "health year" starts. Which means that the preliminary visits for x-rays etc should not be done before May or June (so the teeth don't move before the procedure).

Mrs. Hold was very pleased with herself that she called me. She said something like "see, I am learning. I did not go ahead and book the appointments for whenever was most convenient for me and leave you the task of paying the bills with no notice they were coming."

So I wanted to give her kudos for changing. Perhaps I too can change. But please do not leave posts encouraging me to do so. That will just get my contrary nature perked up to oppose change. Let us leave this as congratulations to Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 10:35 PM
Congratulations to Mrs. Hold!!!!

<and... that's it. Full Stop. Crickets chirping. lol>

(p.s. - Boy, I'm so talkative, even saying that I'm not gonna say anything more takes about 4 sentence fragments and a p.s.!)
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 11:12 PM
(psssst....Jayne.)

quit while you're ahead.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 11:13 PM
lol

Sorry hold! I really did mean the congratulations. smile
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/10 12:20 AM
Congrats to Mrs. Hold. smile

Impacted teeth...

(I can remember getting mine and husband's done under my dental insurance, and the big deciding factor at that time for some reason, was that if they had to cut into the gum it was covered because it was considered surgery versus mere extraction.)
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/10 01:48 AM
Owie, poor kids. And congrats to Mrs Hold for learning to do the right thing. I think she has been listening to you a little bit Hold. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 02:56 PM
Last night Mrs. Hold said I smelled nice. I tried a new brand of antiperspirant this week because it was on sale. Guess this will be my brand as long as they keep selling it.

Oh, and she joined Weight Watchers. She has gained a few pounds recently, and she is accumulating the minor aches and pains that are an understandable by-product of going to the gym 6 or 7 days a week. Since she cannot reasonably increase her exercise level, she'll have to work on her food intake. Hence the Weight Watchers. Please send positive mental vibrations her way. In any event, she is down 40 pounds from this time last year. Which I think is an incredible accomplishment.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:32 PM
Hey Hold, congrats to the Mrs.

I also have an issue with aches and pains associated with exercise. The older I get, the worse they get! I'm now in the habit of popping Tylenol or an Ibuprofen before I go to the gym and sometimes again before I go to bed so I don't wake up in the middle of the night with my joints on fire. I am afraid to go to the doc to ask, but I wouldn't be surprised if this 52 year old body, even though it's in really good shape--is experiencing some arthritis. So I sympathize with Mrs. Hold. Her aches and pains might not even be weight related but age related. That probably won't make her feel any better either....doesn't do much for me!

My H only wears unscented anti-persperant but I never complained about his smell. In fact, he's always smelled great to me---just him...without the aid of anything. Although I'll let you in in a little secret. Victoria's Secret has this after shave balm for men and the I love, love, love, LOVE the scent...as do most of my female friends who have purchased it for their husbands.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:45 PM
It sounds like she's really trying to improve, which is good. I hope she keeps it up.

And like the others I'll leave it at that.

I also should be getting back on WW (I do online). I had lost a total of about 45 pounds from my top weight over the last couple of years, and 25 down from before my knee surgery Feb '08. Over the holidays, I've put 13 back on. I think I'll follow Mrs. Hold's example, and it just so happens that my start day on WW has always been Friday. I had junk for breakfast, so that's not great, but I'll log my points and get going again anyway! smile
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:50 PM
Hold...so you like being smelled?

You like pleasing her nose?

And she's catching herself reversing a tad on her weight plan and doing something about it. Wow. Incredible isn't an overstatement, IMO.

And she wants your admiration...she likes that she changed her own MO...which is how real change happens.

She likes your smell. And you're going to stock up. Could be, the more she's pleased with herself, the more she'll be pleased with you, too.

I wonder when you'll begin to love your inner rebel instead of use him. Hmmm.

Just a thought.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I wonder when you'll begin to love your inner rebel instead of use him. Hmmm.

????????????? dontknow
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 07:02 PM
Is that post like a dog when he tilts his head to the side and his ears perk up, perplexed but interested?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 08:19 PM
Yes
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 08:33 PM
Shabbat Shalom!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 02:47 PM
I had a nice weekend. Both nights we watched tv together and I fell asleep with my head on her thigh. Not sure how she would rate the weekend, having to shove me off her at the end of the night. But I did purchase ingredients and cook dinner both nights from Weight Watchers approved recipes, and both dishes came out well, so I did create some value for her (I am told marketing and cooking dinner are stressful times for people on diets).
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 04:59 PM
Ooh! Ooh! I have an entire notebook of recipes that I got on the WW website and printed out. Great stuff!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:07 PM
Another pretty good weekend! Yay!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by catperson
Ooh! Ooh! I have an entire notebook of recipes that I got on the WW website and printed out. Great stuff!

Mrs. Hold really likes the stuff from Cooking Light. Their stuff is slightly more "exotic" than the WW recipes. The WW pot roast had potatoes and carrots and green beans. The CL version has zucchini instead of green beans, a dash of red wine and alot of garlic. YMMV.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:34 PM
Are they free recipes?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 06:40 PM
If you go to cookinglight.com, they have a recipe finder on the pull down menu under the "food" tab. I typed provencal into the search box and one of the items halfway down the list was the provencal beef stew recipe I made yesterday. Looks like they are free!

Hmmm, seems like they take you to myrecipes.com, which supports several food magazines and web sites. So be careful. Somehow I doubt that all the recipes from Southern Living are as low fat and low calorie as the ones from Cooking Light!
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 10:36 PM
I absolutely love fat, I eat the fat of everyone's steak. They're all, "yuck, you're going to put that on yourself and have high cholesterol." I must be a freak of nature, b/c I eat fat like there's no tomorrow and my cholesterol is fine and as for being fat, well not even close!

You have to do exactly the opposite of the experts. Look everyone is on low calorie, carbs up the yang diets and yet US is getting bigger and bigger. Why, b/c we spike our insulin by eating carbs and get sick etc. We don't work off those calories even though they say they are easier to burn off. Not true, in my experience, teaching your body to burn fat is way, way more efficient.

Look up mark sissons site. His pictures look photo shopped, but that's him, they guy eats fats and meats. I use bacon grease as much as possible. That's something I never would have done in HS or college/grad. I use to take off cheese on pizza to avoid the fat from the cheese, no I layer it with all the meats... yum!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 12:22 AM
"Somehow I doubt that all the recipes from Southern Living are as low fat and low calorie as the ones from Cooking Light!"

rofl!!!

What is it that Paula Deen says? Something about "Butter makes everything taste better!" I'm trying to think of an exception, and nothing comes to mind...

I tried googling "Paula Deen quote butter" and came across the following:

something about deep-fried butter

OTOH I'm a big fan of the Mediterranean Diet. And French Girls Don't Get Fat. A couple of years ago I was baking tons of sourdough bread, eating bread and olive oil, cooking with olive oil and everything from scratch; also eating a lot of sweets, usually with a sourdough component - pancakes, Amish coffeecake, cinnamon buns, etc.

Now that we've moved into our new house and H claimed the kitchen, he cooks with way less butter, way less olive oil... but more "processed" breads, sauces, sweets.

We've all gained weight. TEEF

Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 12:30 AM
Yep, it happens every time. Processed refined sugars and flours. Just stick to the basics:

Candy
Candy corn
Candy canes
Sugar
and syrup

(from Elf)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 02:49 PM
Did you guys see that Pepsi is now marketing Throwback Pepsi as a healthy alternative because it contains REAL SUGAR?!?!

Can you imagine what that means about the "modern" sweeteners they use instead of sugar?!?!

On a more serious note, we went through an Atkins phase in our household. Twice I believe. Never worked for Mrs. Hold. Then again, nothing else did either until she joined the contest last year. So I imagine if a combination of exercise and Weight Watchers doesn't work, we will probably try something like Atkins or South Beach again.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:12 PM
The problem with diets is that people expect them to work forever...even when they stop following them. A good diet is nothing more than a sensible eating plan that works for your body, your exercise level, your metabolism. A meeting with a good nutrionist, working with a good trainer and adherence to the program will work for everyone.

It's like Marriage Builders. You have to practice it everyday. You might fall off the wagon a bit during periods of high stress, holidays, etc., but then you take an assessment and get back on program.

I've never had a weight problem but needed to drop at least that last 10lbs after each kid, PLUS get back into shape...physically, aerobically and mentally. It took the better part of 8-10 months each time. My weight would go back to pre-pregnancy within 2-3 months...but it was closer to a year before I felt like 'me' again.

After kid #3, my thyroid crapped out on me and even though I still don't have a weight issue, it's a daily battle to keep my body from packing on the pounds and I'm still about 7lbs heavier than I'd like to be...looking at the scale. But I'm the same clothes size I was in my mid-20's. I think all the working out, weight training, aerobic training and nutrition management counter-acts what the scale says. My body fat percentage is lower!

My point is that anything in moderation is ok.

Balance out protein, carbs and fats for your body and you will be fine. Get body fat and BMI measured and go by that over what the scale says.

Have you seen the new food pyramid? It's not really a pyramid anymore and it definitely speaks to a higher level of protein and even fats in our diet than previous pyramids.

BTW carbs? EVIL! I only eat them sparingly and at that, only whole grains and never after 4PM.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:15 PM
funny you should mention that.

Just yesterday me and my H were in costco and picked up a case of limited edition coke. It was in those old fashioned green tinted glass bottles. The sign said "made in mexico with Real cane sugar!"

I supposed they were referring to the "high fructose corn syrup" that they put in everything these days. Some reports I've heard blame the obesity epidemic on the corn syrup. MY FIL was reading some article to me about the evils of it a couple of years ago.

But then you get the ad campaign saying that HFCS is just like any other sugar product - trying to reassure everyone I suppose. So like a lot of things I have no idea what the actual TRUTH is health-wise.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:57 PM
OH:

Yes, my wife views this as a lifestyle and not a diet. However, everyone's case is different. My wife did not need to lose 10 pounds after each pregnancy, she needed to lose over 50. She lost 40 of it after S15. She lost none of it after D12. Then piled on more pounds. Until she did the contest last year. She had about 60 to lose when she started. Not to get back to her pre-baby weight, which we all agree is an unreasonable goal. But to get to where she could reasonably be at this stage of her life.

BMI is not a good measure for her. She is short but broad shouldered and has a solid ribcage and is curvaceous. So she is always going to be high on the BMI scale. We go by percentage of body fat, and even there she will be on the high side because she will never be stick thin. Trust me, even at 129 she will still be more like Salma Hayek than Kate Moss. She is always going to have hips and thighs and buns and boobs. Which is great. That is how I like it! Curvy. But she still has more belly than she wants, and to get rid of the belly some of the hips and thighs and buns and boobs will have to go too. Boo hoo! I kid her when I lay my head on her thigh that she is going to be all skin and bones and no longer be a good pillow.

She already watches what she eats. She exercises every day. She lost 40 pounds. But then she hit a plateau. Has not lost any weight in months. She cannot reasonably exercise more, as she is developing aches and pains from the constant effort. She is going to the doctor tomorrow to address those.

So if she is going to lose more weight, she needs help. She is not going to WW to diet. She is going for the encouragement of weekly weigh ins and a group of people who will support her in trying to make further changes to her lifestyle. The entire family is supporting her as we are all going to be eating healthier along with her. I hope to lose a few pounds as well, as I have gained 5 pounds since I stopped running. My wife finds that the structure and discipline of WW appeals to her. She liked the structure of the contest. She is hoping WW will give her some of that back.

Take what works and leave the rest.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:14 PM
This is where looking at shaking things up can help. WW is great for good tips on that. ONE visit to a sports nutritionist/health nutritionist might also be well worth the $$$ (and even covered by your insurance).

Lots of people plateau. It's the body's response to all that weight loss. The answer is patience...and shaking things up. Things I've done in the past when I've hit a plateau (they don't have to be weight related..mine have come in the form of BMI, body fat percentage, muscle development, and yes, weight), is to change up my eating for a week or two (increase/decrease protein, carbs, fats) and change my workout routine. Cut back on cardio, increase weight training. Switch out what I do...both cardio and weights. If I've been running alot, I switch to the bike. If I've been doing both of those, I get in the pool. If I've been on the elliptical, I get on the stairmaster. Or I mix it all up if I've been doing too much of one thing.

Same with weights. If I've been going for more lbs added to my weight routine, I cut back and increase reps. Try new routines. Free weights vs the machines. Take a class at the gym that I haven't taken before.

How about Pilates? Yoga? Great things to add to a workout routine that won't stress your joints.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:25 PM
OH:

She actually does a nice mix of exercise, not all the same thing. Sometimes spinning. Sometimes yoga. Sometimes cardio-sculpt. I do think she needs to maybe add some time in the pool (now that she is a size 8 she no longer feels so embarrassed to be in a bathing suit) or something else that is more whole-body related than machines in the gym or classes in the yoga / cardio room. But I think that will have to wait until after the visit to the doctor tomorrow to get a better idea why her shoulder is bothering her and what can be done. D12 gets PT on her knee. Maybe Mrs. Hold will need to get some shoulder work done.

As for nutrition, they had a nutritionist talk to the contestants last year. And we have had meetings with nutritionists for D12 who is overweight and has many food allergies. So in our case, it is not a lack of knowledge but a lack of willpower that is the issue. Hence the WW. They do a good job of reinforcing self-discipline.

I also help. I make sure to buy salad greens every trip to the market. Mrs. Hold doesn't love them and rarely buys them herself. But if I buy them and put a bowl of greens on the table with dinner, she usually takes some. She is generally pleased as it helps her feel full and she has some zero calorie dressings she likes. Whereas I have dropped talk of the carrots and celery that are 0 points because I know she doesn't like them and resents my suggesting them. But salad she is open to being "helped" to include. She sees that if she adds salad to dinner she is less likely to need a midnight bowl of mini-wheats.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:34 PM
Hold:

I've had 3 kids; I empathize with your wife on the belly thing. I don't think my stomach will ever be what it was pre-pregnancy.

OTOH, my trainer is 50, also the mother of 3 kids and has a washboard stomach. I will never look like her, but I've had tremendous success with following her plan of 200 ab crunches a day. Yes, I said a day. She's got a variety of various torture...um I mean...exercise techniques that work every muscle there from upper abs to lower abs to obliques. I started with 50 a day and worked my way up to 200.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:18 PM
OH - I'd love to hear what exercises she's doing for her stomach when you have time.

Hold - Are you where it's cold right now? Just wondering because man - my lower back and a few fingers are really bothering me this year since just after Christmas, when the temperatures really dipped, and I'm wondering if this weather has anything to do with the joint pain. This is the first year (that I can remember) where I'm bothered by the freezing temperatures.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:20 PM
Hold...I also wanted to mention that there are some skin tightening lotions (Nivea?) that may help her if she's interested. The smell isn't wonderful, but it isn't horrible, and it may improve the elasticity.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:20 PM
Be very careful of your delivery, though!!!
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:30 PM
To get washboard stomach is not about crunches or a certain exercise, it's fat loss. You can do crunches until the cows come home and not see a thing.

To rev the metabolism and burn tons of calories the best are multijoint movements, ie. the more muscle used over a period of time will burn more than say lifting 20lbs until you can't lift it anymore. That is why I like crossfit. I gives you the routine and challenges you by timing it, so you are taxing yourself when you do it. I literally have an exercise day where the workout lasts 6 minutes and I'm exhausted.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:40 PM
I agree Mud, but it's still different for women. It's not just fat loss. When you have your entire body stretched obscenely out of shape for nine months then rinse and repeat that several times...well muscle tone is just not there.

And it's not really just abs. It's all about having strong back muscles to support those abs, too.

Soolee, I can't explain the various ab crunches here. My trainer has a video on her website and if I can get permission from her (and the mods here) to post a link, I'll do it.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:42 PM
OMG - I just watched a crossfit workout on youtube, and I think I'd probably have a heart attack on the first try. LOL
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:51 PM
My trainer takes a lot from crossfit. And body combat, though sometimes that can be a bit boring.

ETA: When I say "crunches", I'm not talking about just sit-ups or standard crunches, though some of those are cycled through there. It's an entire complex routine of small amounts of intense reps focused on a one group of muscles (not your entire abs) and then rotated around side to side, up, down, back, front, etc. That's where the number '200' comes in.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:54 PM
Soolee,

It is tough, but I started by using less weight, less repetitions, and less sets. If you watched the girl and guy doing the thrusters and pull ups, yeah I can do that now in 6:50, but the first time was 19 minutes with less weight. And I really thought I was in good shape before. It challenged/s me so much I now make it a 2-3x/wk thing. They suggest 3 days on 1 day off, but I tried that and it killed me with all the running I do, so I do less now.

OH,

I agree it's gotta be tough on women, no doubt after having kids. It really has to be a goal, but crossfit is so incredible in it's ability to give you a workout that you can do at home under 1 hour. Imagine the freed up time of not having to get ready, drive wait for a machine or whatever then drive home.

There's been days I get up take water and coffe down to my home gym, listen to news warm up, and be done in a total 25 minutes.

I've done triathlons, ultramarathons, adventure racing and I can tell you that NOTHING has given my metabolism a boost like those workouts. I've gone into races (usually place in atleast the top 20% if not 5%) thinking I was in shape and did well, but I am as fast at a 5k race now as I was in HS. That is all from the strength I gained from xfit. I was quite sure my speed days were behind me, but not anymore. Xfit has given me an edge by helping me crosstrain and drop body fat (extra weight in race) giving me the strength and confidence to push.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:03 PM
So, let's say all I have at home are 2.5 pound weights and 5 pounds weights. Maybe I could get one of those bars to do pull ups and put it in a doorway.

I could just keep repeating those two exercises and build on that, and it would speed up my metabolism and help me burn more fat? Would that be considered a very scaled down version of crossfit exercising? Just wondering.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:03 PM
I also have a treadmill.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:15 PM
I am very very opposed to artificial sweeteners. Yes, I consider the things I make with Real Sugar and Real Butter to be way healthier than less-sweetened, low-fat cookies, and the sugar-free yogurt the in-laws buy. It takes less to fill you up, too.

Fortunately H feels the same way I do about Real Sugar and Real Butter (and Extra Virgin Olive Oil! Can't forget the EVOO!) - except the amounts. He uses way less. but weighs more. wink
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:16 PM
Diet and exercise talk always fascinates me because my dad is an exercise and wellness physiologist. He has seen lots of fads and fashions come and go for decades, but the same ideas always hold true:

Burn more calories than you eat; or eat less calories than you burn
Keep the metabolism going - diet without exercise is asking for more fat after the "diet" is over
Fat content matters
Cardio is king
Weights build strength and endurance - if you want bulk, go for less reps and more weight; if you want linear build - go for less weight and more reps
Never - never - cut out an entire food group
Ant diet that uses a drastic change in body chemistry to give you quick results is asking for trouble

One of the best nutritional diets is the one recommended for diabetics.

I followed the above several years ago, and I lost 35 pounds and kept it off for quite awhile - until I began evil bipolar meds and stopped walking (it was a trigger for H)
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:17 PM
Yes it would be scaled down!!!!!!!! Very good!!!!!!

And it would work!!!!!!!!

If you get on their site and click on the message board then hit (I think exercises or WOD) highlighted on the top will say body weight WOD or work outs of the day. This is body weight exercises using pushups, pullups, dips (chair), body squats, lunges, burpees, jumps, jump rope, sit ups and back extensions.

The whole idea of the crossfit is to never do the same workout with in an 18 day period. It doesn't let your body adapt.

Ex: if you did 15 pushups today then tomorrow and on and on, you would find that eventually you could do 100 in a row with no problem, but your body would adapt and it would be "easy" for your body to do those 15 pushups say 1 year from now.

A typical body weight day:
5 rounds for time of:
25 squats
15 pushups
20 sit ups
20 back extentions

You do this without rest- just keep going as fast as poss from the squats all the way to back ext. then start another round. Doing this with rest would be easy, but for time it kills.

The next day will be:
3 rounds of:
20 pull ups
100 jump ropes
10 lunges each leg

Now if you can't do a pull up, you put a chair under it and jump so your chin goes over it, then lower slowly. After doing this for awhile you'll be able to do pull ups!

I have my sister doing these body weight wod (apparently she's gained a lot) and I'm training my nephew to run faster.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:21 PM
l2,

Your dad is exactly right!

My parents do these ridiculous 90 day plans and they work. My W and I live those 90 day plans yearly though.

It's not rocket science, it has to be turned into a life style.

I'll argue for and against cardio and weights though. I've learned in the last year by experience. Also I eat more fat than I use to and I keep getting leaner.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:21 PM
For those engineers and other techies/science-minded folks, I highly recommend reading The Hacker's Diet.

It's almost as simple as "Burn more calories than you consume." The monkey wrench is that your metabolism can change. The Hacker's Diet discusses the ever-dreaded "plateau" in terms of needing to reset the "set point", the weight which your body tries to maintain through metabolism rates, cravings, etc.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
I am very very opposed to artificial sweeteners. Yes, I consider the things I make with Real Sugar and Real Butter to be way healthier than less-sweetened, low-fat cookies, and the sugar-free yogurt the in-laws buy. It takes less to fill you up, too.

Fortunately H feels the same way I do about Real Sugar and Real Butter (and Extra Virgin Olive Oil! Can't forget the EVOO!) - except the amounts. He uses way less. but weighs more. wink

I'm using agave nectar, and vegan 'butter'. Both natural plant-based foods. Interesting side convo re the Bible: this is my third week of vegan eating, and our pastor read something from Genesis where God said that he gave Adam and Eve all of the plants that bear seed and all of the fruits that bear seed for them to eat. I commented that God meant for us to be vegan. smile H said that he gave us animals to eat, too, so we looked it up and God (finally) gave us animals as food at the time of the flood. I just thought that was interesting.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:48 PM
My biological parents are both Seventh Day adventists. They have both stated that if we held to all the Old Testament rules of eating, we would be healthier. I am not one who does that, but I can see how it could be true. (I confess I can't imagine life without bacon or shrimp!)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:52 PM
All I can say about eating vegan is that I feel AMAZING. Alert, energetic, just great all over. But I had the flu for two weeks prior, so my perspective might be skewed. smile
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 09:57 PM
Another way to do pullups:

Take two folding chairs. Position them about 18" apart. Put a dowel over the chair part. (you need someone to hold the dowel now). Having someone hold the ends of dowel secure, lay on your back, grip the bar in pull-up postion and lift your shoulders and upper back off the floor and your chin over the bar.

It sounds easy but it's very difficult.

Themud: Sometimes I wonder about just ditching the gym. I don't have a home gym but see example above..between all the home-made examples (hurdles, ladders, chairs, dowels, etc.,), I can fashion a pretty good "bowflex"! But I love to spin...I ride my bike outside in the good weather but I love not wearing a helmet and having my bike workout set to music occasionally too...why I love to spin. I enjoy the pool (don't have one of those at home..). And I really like Pilates classes. The 'mat' style Pilates...I know enough to do at home. But my gym has all the big equipment too.

So if I gave up the gym, I'd have to find another place to do those things when the urge hit.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 10:25 PM
Another way to do pullups, too: get a resistance band and sling it over something high and sturdy--placing a hook high on a wall will work, if you don't wish to tempt a drapery rod or ceiling fan. Then you pull DOWN, instead of pulling yourself UP. Works the same. Our routine involves a lot of pull-ups, and I do mine on the bowflex, pulling down.

Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:00 PM
Yes, I just recently heard someone point that out as well - not just the humans, but I think all the animals in the beginning of Genesis were vegetarians/vegans, as in, only eating plants.

Another interesting observation: it was after they ate the forbidden fruit that animals were first killed for clothing.

(ETA: Although I just noticed, "Abel kept flocks." And apparently killed them also.)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
Another interesting observation: it was after they ate the forbidden fruit that animals were first killed for clothing.

I gotta wonder about the first person who said, "Hm, check out that cow. I think I wanna wear that." lol

I also recently read that humans are the only species that drink the milk of other species. And I thought, it's not that we're the only ones who DO, it's that we're the only ones who CAN. laugh
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:09 PM
Actually, that isn't true, about humans being the only species.

Ants "milk" aphids.

For real! laugh

(Also, barn cats won't turn away from a squirt!)

(Although your statement reminds me of a quote I thought was attributed to Mark Twain: "Humans are the only animals who cry... or need to."
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:25 AM
Hold,

Has she looked at that xp90 or whatever? That is based on the crossfit, and is actually crossfit in a box.

I have one friend that felt he had to buy a package. He was really trimming dow, but stubbed his toe and even though it's healed now he hasn't resumed the workouts or diet. His poor W wants him to slim down for attraction and health.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:26 AM
Hi Jayne, I think the Mark Twain quote is "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:28 AM
I'm doing P90X, and it's awesome. Easy to adjust to skill level.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:30 AM
cwm,

THATS CROSSFIT!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:46 AM
*blushes*, that's right!!!

blush
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:48 AM
She wouldn't want to do P90X unless she could find a group to join her. She likes the camaraderie of going to the gym and seeing familiar faces. It is part of her ritual. And helps her motivate. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Might work for me!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 03:33 PM
This is where we are. Look at the following e-mail exchange:

Message #1:
From: Sears <sears@sears.com>
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Message #2:
From: Holdingontoit
To: Mrs. Hold
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Subject: Fwd: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Somehow I think the wrong one of us got this message. Otherwise, I need to go on a strict diet to reduce my man-boobs!

Message #3:
From: Mrs. Hold
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

I LUV your man-boobs smile


If we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Mrs. Hold was pleasant last night when I first came home. But snippy later after I played PS3 in the kitchen. She wants me to come be with her. But doesn't want to have to ask for it. Just like me and sex. We are so well matched to drive each other crazy! Unfortunately, not in a good way.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 03:52 PM
She's tossing stones into the creek. Not enough yet to be visible from the surface...

... but if you don't purposefully kick them away, they may accumulate.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 04:20 PM
I we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Hold...I think if you were in a true state of withdrawal, you might not even feel the regret. How much exclusive time do you spend with your wife - like maybe taking a walk and talking or sitting somewhere quiet with very little other distractions? Can you see yourself just doing this to do it and removing any pressure off yourself to feel anything? Stop analyzing how you feel? Just to see what happens after several attempts?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 04:31 PM
T/J (sorry)

My trainer just told me she uses a lot of the Crossfit program as well as the P90X stuff.

I'm thinking about ordering the P90X.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 05:25 PM
Hold,

I'm there with you. Complements don't go very far.

OH,

Don't waste your money on the p90x. Buy a pull up bar, jump robe and a 10lb kettle ball and you'll be set to do the body weight xfit and you can scale down or up, unless you feel you "need" a program, just hate to see people do that when xfit is free.

If you do buy the p90x, don't just follow it for 90 days, cycle through it again once you are done etc.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 05:54 PM
Mud:

I've got a bunch of questions. I dont' want to hijack Hold's thread. I will post in "Other Topics" in a bit...ok? I'll put your name in the thread title.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:04 PM
OK,

Hold, do you think W would have had SF with you then? I know that exercise can increase ones testosterone even in women, which might increase their libido. Thoughts?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
How much exclusive time do you spend with your wife - like maybe taking a walk and talking or sitting somewhere quiet with very little other distractions? Can you see yourself just doing this to do it and removing any pressure off yourself to feel anything? Stop analyzing how you feel? Just to see what happens after several attempts?

I currently spend almost zero time alone with my wife in recreational activities. Am I willing to spend more time with her? No. Hurts too much when it does not lead to sex. I understand that I am DJing my wife. I am predicting that she has not changed and will not change and that my past experience will be repeated. I understand it is possible we might spend time together and she might react differently than she did in the past. I am not willing to take the risk that she won't. I am confortable in my Withdrawal.

Which is exactly where I am. Unwilling to move to the state of Conflict. If I were willing to spend time with her and then attempt to POJA more sex, that would create Conflict.

I insist that she Plan A me. She meet my needs. With no expectation of immediate reciprocation. In the hope that I will eventually choose to meet her needs in return. Not POJA, where I brainstorm and negotiate ways for both of us to be enthusiastic currently. I am not going to be enthusiastic about having to "earn" SF.

I know that is not how Dr. Harley says it works. Eliminate LBs. Work to meet her needs. And the sex will follow. Not for us. Not after 8 years of counselling and me working to meet her needs and getting nothing in return. Either she shows herself willing to provide SF whether or not her needs are getting met or I continue to play PS3.

The good news is that I am getting older. My sex drive is way down. I don't miss it as much. I still hold it against her that it doesn't happen more often. But the absence is not as debilitating. I used to play computer games and spend much of the time fretting about the lack of sex. The games were not sufficiently distracting. Now I play PS3 for hours and I do not give a single thought to Mrs. Hold or to sex.

In the past I missed her and reached out to her and got rejected. Now, she comes to visit me at the console and I am curt with her. These days, I prefer the "sure thing" of rejecting her to the risky and messy process of negotiating to get my needs met. I still don't get my needs met. But at least I don't get overtly rejected.

My "game plan" is to wait until the kids are grown. Then give our marriage another chance. At that point she could not hold custody of the kids over my head. So I can see myself negotiating on a more level playing field.

I understand by ignoring her I am taking the chance that she will choose to divorce me before the kids leave. I see that as a very low risk. I don't totally ignore her. We talk every day. I bought her the cooktop and the new tv. It is just at night after the kids are asleep that I avoid being alone with her in the bedroom. I don't imagine she will hold that against me enough to divorce over.

Originally Posted by themud
Hold, do you think W would have had SF with you then? I know that exercise can increase ones testosterone even in women, which might increase their libido. Thoughts?

I was at the office and she was home. No opportunity for sex. Do I think she might have more sex with me than in the past because she exercises more? Maybe. Am I willing to "woo" her in the hopes she will? No. I am done with wooing her. BTDT. Have the scars and burn marks to prove it. At this point she needs to woo me.

She gets the paycheck married or divorced. She wants the time and attention, she needs to show that she can reliably meet my need for SF. Otherwise, she can take her ENs and do whatever she wants with them. But don't bring them to me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:55 PM
I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:08 PM
Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??

When she is angry with you??

When she is hurt by something you have said??

When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??

Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:32 PM
Hold,

Yes, I hear you. You see for years I thought we were "working" on it and found out I was the only one working on it. Do you have any F%$^&ing idea what that did to my psyche? That is when I turned into No More Mr. Nice Guy and she could sense it.

bjs,

I completely understand what you are saying, but it was like the chicken and the egg and we (or I) was working on it since she started refusing from the beginning. The chronic refusals and what she said and did crushed me so much that I did not feel safe and secure initiating and eventually I did not feel safe and secure bringing the subject up, so I do understand.

Hold and I are in similar places in that it is now their opportunity to "work" on it. If she wants more safety and security, she's going to have to make it safe and secure for me, that's all, and if she doesn't than I'm ok with it.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:42 PM
I don't blame you. To do otherwise is to be in long-term Plan A-type behavior. Unconditional love, personal sacrifice. Both not recommended, around here.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:50 PM
Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:00 PM
themud

I do understand,

I made it unsafe for my h by refusing sex early in our marriage. He made it unsafe for me by having an EA. He hasn't done much to make me feel safe that another EA will never happen. In fact we just talked the other day about what are boundary crossings for EA's and he could only come up with being secretive. OUCH.

I do understand to some degree what it feels like to be constantly rejected or your need not met. One of mine is conversation not my top but in there. My h know this, knows he isn't meeting it, knows that it can put me in a vulnerable position to have it filled by others, knows that others are filling, yet has no plans to change it.

soooo........what does one do. I don't want it filled by anyone else I want it filled by him. I haven't felt safe in years with him however I keep taking those steps to improve me and to make those steps towards him. I'm not even sure if this is going to work. I'm not sure I will ever fill safe with him.

However I get to a place where I feel strong enough and I take those steps towards him. Sometimes he surprises me sometimes not. However each time I see him make those baby steps to. It gives me hope, encouragement only later to be crushed once again. So I do understand. However I would much rather keep doing positive steps for me and my marriage so that in the end whether it makes it or not I can live with myself and the knowledge that I did everything possible even if my spouse did not.

I understand rejection for a man in the sexual department is one of the cruelest things a wife can do to a man. Your wife's rejection of you should belong in her lap. I wish you and Hold could see that it is not a reflection of the kind of men you guys are. That you could release that hurt and pain to regain your ability to see that you are not defined by your wive's rejection on you. I'm not sure if this makes any sense and its not coming out on here the way I want to say it.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by themud
Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe

I used to believe if I lost enough weight, colored my hair the right color, cut my hair the right way, kept the house as clean as possible, encouraged him enough, admired him enough, wore the right clothes, that he would........... yes it is crazy making sometimes. I do understand.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:09 PM
Yes it is painful. I can only think of my sil who cannot have a child herself and feel like life itself has rejected her. I feel bad for her, but at times think, "why doesn't she adopt?". She doesn't want to adopt and although it's close the fact is she cannot have a child.

For so long I had this feeling wanting SF and knowing I will not get it, although it's so close and that pain was to my core. I have cried alone from the pain. I will never get those year back when I could at the drop of a hat and wanted to at the drop of a hat. Those are gone and stolen by someone who was to protect and to serve, to have and to hold. It's painful to think she didn't care and admits it and admits being selfish. If I would've known I probably would have left then, instead she lied about trying and working at it when all along she wasn't. Safe and Secure? How do I know she is trying her hardest? How do I know this will last? By signing that contract she has given me the ability to see with my own eyes that there's hope and when I'm feeling that pain, I can pull it out of my wallet and read it, unless of course it's another ploy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by bjs
If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you?? When she is angry with you?? When she is hurt by something you have said?? When she feels she has to because its one of your EN?? Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??

I am very torn about those questions.

Part of me says yes. I want sex no matter how she feels. She wanted date nights and vacations and presents even when they were painful for me. She wanted compliments and admiration even when she spent all our savings, ran up huge debts and gained 70 pounds. She didn't stop wanting what she wanted just because I didn't feel like providing it. Now it is her turn to provide no matter how she feels.

Part of me says no. But probably not for the reason you might imagine. Not to spare her feelings. But because I am disgusted that I so often accepted lousy sex. So if she merely offered to lie there and let me do my thing while her mind flies of to "Planet Mrs. Hold". In other words, lousy sex. Because her anger or fear or pain prevents her from offering more than that. Then there is no need for us to bother. But if she could make the sex good for me (I used to want the sex to be good for her, but at this point I figure that is her responsibility), I would accept it and thank her for it.

And hopefully feel good about it. I used to feel bad about having sex when the woman wasn't "into it". Now I feel like a chump for being so "noble". Now I just want to be selfish. And figure if she wants the sex to be good for her then she can ask for what she needs. I am more than willing to use fingers or tongue or toys to make it good for her if she shares with me what she enjoys. Or if she is willing to explore together if she doesn't already know. But I am no longer going to take on the responsibility for making it good for her if she will not share her experience with me.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.

You overlook one of the strong premise of MB, if there is a disease, addiction or abuse, MB will not likely work.

If and when you fix yourself, and if and when she fixes herself, only then MB will have a better change of working.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:00 PM
Hold, what do we tell our kids when they are little and they do something to "get back" at someone who hurt them?

"Two wrongs don't make a right"

(yeah, yeah, I know, but three rights make a left...)

Kudos, BTW for putting responsibility for her own enjoyment of sex squarely where it belongs.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by bjs
Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??

I'm not hold or mud, but I will answer based on my experience.
When I was at a point of feeling complete UNMET SF, any sex was sex and I took it.

It was up to me to determine and differentiate what is "bad sex," "duty devotional," "quickie sex," and "love making."

I could not quite make the distinction on on some of those without regular sex.

Originally Posted by bjs
When she is angry with you??
It depends on how she expresses her anger. If she agrees to say quickie sex, then she starts complaining during, making irritated gestures during, or any overt actions I perceive a turn off means it's "bad sex" and I would stop and refuse to participate further.

Originally Posted by bjs
When she is hurt by something you have said??
It is her responsibility to communicate her feelings. I do not control her feelings.

Originally Posted by bjs
When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??
That is her choice to meet my needs, so long as I express my needs to her. There is nothing wrong with duty or devotion sex, so long as both perceive it as such.

Originally Posted by bjs
Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??
I *was* in that perception, where the lack of SF felt like it was the only thing holding the marriage together, and felt like when SF is never to happen, the M is done.

But when I did proceed to think and discuss D, there were "other important factors" or values for me to consider--such as kids, and financial impact.

Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:22 PM
Still,

Yes there are other responsibilities that override lack of SF, like kids etc.

I use to want sex no matter how I was treated, but no not anymore. If she is mean I don't want it and that is part of the jab, that part of that high libido is gone and will most likely never come back. Those years wasted while she didn't try to work on M. I am trying to get past the fact that she didn't try and I have lost years of SF b/c of her unwillingness and selfishness.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 01:53 PM
Being in Plan A with my H myself I have been reading this thread with interest. I have 2 thoughts to contribute.

First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF. I'm wondering if the MB program fosters a sense of 'entitlement' to SF. But then again that is not what I understand by the MB approach to SF - Husbands are NOT entitled to SF. It's more that SF will naturally 'happen' if the wife's emotional needs are being met and there are no lovebusters.

Second. I thought Plan A was meant to mean a complete erradication of love busters. I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.
It's essential IMHO that the wife has a good long period of time feeling and truly believing that there is absolutely no pressure and no expectation of SF. After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.



Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 02:17 PM
No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.

But if you want your spouse to feel love for you (which is the entire premise of MB) then you will chose to meet your spouses EN in a way you can both feel enthusiastic about.

The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

That stinks. It's not entitlement, but it's certainly not building love, and the like of it undoubtedly withdraws love.

I would also add that SF is slightly different in that there is no way to get that need met (morally) from anyone else once you are married.

It's stupid to ignore this EN, and spouses who do that to the higher libido spouse are relying on the good will and moral character of their spouse not to have an affair... They are not protecting their marriage, they are not ensuring their spouse feels in love with them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by veejay
First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF.

Yes, I am very bitter and resentful about the lack of sex in our marriage.

Quote
I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.

BTDT. We did marriage counselling for 8 years. During parts of that we went months without sex (like 9 months). We saw a sex therapist who said "no sex until I gave you permission". I was fine with that. Went with the program. No asking for sex. Good positive attitude. My wife refused to do any of the "homework" (well, to be fair I think she did it 1 time in 16 weeks). I spent plenty of time eliminating love busters and "stuffing" down my resentment over the lack of sex.

Quote
After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.

Which is where I find myself today. Done the program. Got told to shove it. Waiting for the kids to be out of the house so I can finally take the action that is the natural consequence of knowing this will never work.

Quote
Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.

I think you have a very good understanding of the MB principles and of Plan A. I wish you the best good fortune in resolving whatever marital issues lead you to arrive at this forum.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.

Interesting that you should post this today.

On the way out of the house today, I told Mrs. Hold "have a nice day" (as I do pretty much every day if she is home and awake when I leave). Today she was standing near the door, so she took a step toward me and leaned in for a kiss. I aimed for her cheek but she turned her head and gave me a quick peck on the lips. She seemed quite pleased with herself and said "after all, I am not a friend".

As I have said before, in other circumstaces, I might have felt pleased with her behavior. As it is, I was angry. In my mind, she was basically saying "I am your wife, and I am entitled to a kiss on the lips." My mind was screaming "no, at this point you are not entitled to ANYTHING on account of being my wife!"

She has made it clear that I am not entitled to anything on acocunt of being her husband. Which, as Telly says, is the correct position to take. But it is a 2-way street. Just as I am not entitled to sex just because I am her husband, she is not entitled to kisses on the lips just because she is my wife. She wants to be reassured that she retains the status of wife, and what she sees as the entitlements of that position. But as Telly says, there are no entitlements. Hypocritical. Makes my blood boil.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:01 PM
veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.

Wow. Excellent post!
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

But how would one differentiate between a general 'sexual aversion' that has nothing to do with the H's behavior and a 'sexual aversion' that is a reaction to the H's behavior? It seems that the best shot at getting at the truth is to be a selfless 'Angel' for 3 months and THEN there's at least a fighting chance of seeing what the true problem is. Then and only then has any partner earned the right to declare a possible general 'sexual aversion' (that is completely independent of ANY partner's behavior) as the cause of the SF problems - that's the way I see it anyway.

But then if 'resentment' is an LB for the 'resented' partner it strikes me as enormously difficult to erradicate. I personally don't think it's something that can be 'faked'. The 'resented' partner will still feel it IMO - and therefore still be lovebusted by it. The way I see it, the only way to achive true erradication of the 'resentment' lovebuster is for the Plan A partner to actually and truly not feel resentful. Now that's got to be a hard thing to achieve and I wonder if anyone ever has. It's a classic catch 22.


Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Done the program. Got told to shove it.

Oh so you followed Plan A and your wife confirmed that you were meeting all her EN's and had stopped all LB's? And she still doesn't want any SF? So I assume she's realized in her own mind that her sexual aversion is nothing to do with you and she's confirmed this to you?

I'm so sorry, you must feel awful - I know I would. But at least you now know that her aversion has absolutely nothing to do with you or your behavior.

So now you must be in Plan A 1/2 - like a 'holding period' until you can put plan B into effect? Which raises the question of how is one supposed to behave towards their partner in the period 'between' Plan A and Plan B?

Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:45 PM
Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

Just a comment. Years ago when I was a teenager, I worked with a girl who told me that she purposefully dressed down and did things so as not to attract the opposite sex.

Your comment above got me thinking that perhaps the lack of affection and LBs could be that person's tools to help her not appear desirable to her mate. That way the struggle with SF - that whole issue is less of an issue for her than it would be otherwise, at least in her mind.

Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.

I just think there is no place for resentment in Plan A. And I can't see plan A working if it is present. I thought that if there is anger and resentment over lack of SF then this should be expressed as a thoughtful request. Continuing to walk around emanating bitterness and resentment to my mind is a 'selfish demand'.

What helps me drop the "resentful" mindset is something that I read which goes "Harboring resentment is like ME taking poison every day hoping the other person will die" - LOL - KWIM?

Saying that dropping resentment is an act of 'distancing' ....no. I don't agree with that. If you've expressed your disappointment/anger and asked for the need to be met - that should be it. done. The resentment shouldn't continue. Maybe I'm getting confused but - no, for me, there's something wrong with your logic here Retread. Just can't put my finger on it!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:07 PM
And I do remember Hold saying that he's been round and round with his wife on this issue and doesn't feel the need or the wisdom in reminding her repeatedly why he is in withdrawal due to the fear of divorce and losing custody, but I am always finding myself wondering if it would work...

Maybe I'm too idealistic. Could be. But I think, Hold, that your wife deserves to know how this whole SF issue has affected your view of life and your feelings about yourself, especially. I think she should be told. Perhaps she doesn't truly realize how much her actions have affected your self esteem.

I believe you're relying too much on her ability (or inability) to read into your state of mind. People get used to how others act and stop feeling responsible at a certain point. They learn to forgive themselves so that they can adapt to their surroundings and function adequately in life, so the unhappiness then stops being an accusation to them and evolves into the responsibility of the other.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:18 PM
Soolee:

I know I am DJing her by predicting how she will react. In large part, I am predicting that if I placed my unhappiness squarely in front of her on a continual basis she would divorce me rather than work on the issues between us. I understand that it is possible she would react differently today than she did during 8 years of marriage counselling. But I am not willing to risk my time with my kids on that chance.

She knows how it has affected my self esteem. When we were talking with friends on New Year's Day she said "that is how the rejection affects you and your self esteem, it does not affect all men that way". She knows. She holds it against me. Thinks less of me for it. She does not react with compassion. She reacts with disdain.

I understand why. Understanding why does not make it hurt any less.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:19 PM
Hold, she will NEVER divorce you. She'd have to get a job.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:26 PM
She knows how it has affected my self esteem. When we were talking with friends on New Year's Day she said "that is how the rejection affects you and your self esteem, it does not affect all men that way". She knows. She holds it against me. Thinks less of me for it. She does not react with compassion. She reacts with disdain.

What, exactly, was she referring to? The Noassatol Diet? Did she account for being on said diet for years on end?
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:27 PM
Hold, does your wife blame you for her aversion to SF or does she accept it as her own issue. Or does she even admit she has an aversion to sf?

Sorry, you are going throught this. My heart goes out to you.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:28 PM
Are you saying that your personal sex life was a topic of conversation amongst friends?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by veejay
I just think there is no place for resentment in Plan A. And I can't see plan A working if it is present. I thought that if there is anger and resentment over lack of SF then this should be expressed as a thoughtful request. Continuing to walk around emanating bitterness and resentment to my mind is a 'selfish demand'.

Agreed. That is why I have no hjope for my marriage. My patience and ability to resist resentment has reached its limit.

Quote
If you've expressed your disappointment/anger and asked for the need to be met - that should be it. done. The resentment shouldn't continue.

Maybe that would be the case for other needs. But the requirement of monogamy makes this difficult as regards sex. On other issues, we can agree to disagree. She votes Democrat, I vote Republican. We can go to the sushi place and I can order chicken tempura and not eat raw fish. Or she can go to the sushi restaurant with a friend while I go to Buffalo Wild Wings. But for sex, if we disagree, then my need for sex goes unmet.

For me, for the resentment to end, I would need to end the marriage and be free to seek sex elsewhere. However, that requires me to pay a price as regards time with my children that I am not willing to pay.

I know it is my choice to stay. I know I would be healthier and more mature if I could accept my choice more graciously and not resent her for the lack of sex. But I am not that healthy or mature. I am paying a price for choosing to stay with my kids. A price she does not have to pay because she could choose divorce and keep predominate custody of the kids. I am determined that she pay a price for forcing me to make this choice. No matter what it costs me.

I am taking all the poison I can get my hands on. Unfortunately, I haven't died yet.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:41 PM
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
What, exactly, was she referring to?

One woman who is tall and very thin mentioned that she felt heavy and thought she had a few pounds to lose. I was surprised and asked her if these thoughts had been present throughout her life. She said they had. I was again surprised, since she is, as I said, tall and thin with a flat stomach and a small butt and I could not imagine that she was worried about her weight. In fact, on occassion I have heard her make self-deprecating comments about the small size of her chest, and I would have thought her concerns, if any, would have been in the opposite direction.

I then mentioned an article I read in which an avowedly feminist woman wrote something like "how can women be expected to compete with men at the workplace when women are constantly distracted by worrying about their weight". I suggested this was one of the most anti-feminist statements I had ever read. Not just because of what it says about women's fragility. But also because, no matter how debilitating it is for women to constantly be worried about the size of their butts, men are just as distracted and deterred by thinking about each of the women they pass in the hallway, what she would be like in bed, whether she would consent to having sex with him, and the humbling realization for most men that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the answer would be no.

The women were shocked to think that men are this easily distracted. One of the other husbands confirmed that he was distracted, but not as easily deterred as me. This merely confirmed his wife's opinion that he is a sexist oaf, with an overly inflated sense of his attractiveness to women. The other women asked me if I really found it so hurtful and depressing to think that most women would not want me. I said I did. And Mrs. Hold said what I quoted previously.

Originally Posted by Soolee
Are you saying that your personal sex life was a topic of conversation amongst friends?

No. Are you nuts?!?! Talk about our sex life with friends? We don't even talk about our sex life with each other any more. I got tired of complaining. She got tired of hearing me complain. So now I just take whatever hugs and eag squeezes she offers and keep my disappointment to myself.

Last night she asked why I have seemed so cheerful lately. Do any of you think that my posts over the past few weeks indicate I am FEELING cheerful? I am apparently a VERY good actor. That, and I leveled up and unlocked a new gun and a new perk on Modern Warfare 2 last night.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:52 PM

Hold, I think I'll have to go back and read your description of how you implemented plan A. (maybe I can learn from your experience. From the small amount I've read it looks like your wife is not following the MB program at all?

The way I understood it Plan A is dependent on Plan B - i.e. you leaving. But that's easier said than done. If you choose to live in the same house then I suppose the best you can do is completely and totally mentally 'disengage' from her. A sort of plan b?) i.e. leave her in all aspects except physically removing yourself from the house. This can be achieved - I did it myself the whole of last year (which if I'm wrong and plan A works for me and my H and therefore he is NOT iredeemably abusive - I am going to feel really bad about). But anywho, in my experience complete detachment and disengagement, (whilst still being couteous and respectful)IS possible if you are still living with someone. It's not ideal but sometimes the choices in life are between crap and crappier.

I'm sorry hold. You sound very upset and down.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Soolee:

I know I am DJing her by predicting how she will react. In large part, I am predicting that if I placed my unhappiness squarely in front of her on a continual basis she would divorce me rather than work on the issues between us.

I have the same fear, hold. But I do it anyway. SF isn't our problem (interesting, to me, sidenote: I put on the ENQ that I want sex 3x a week and am happy with the fulfillment of this need, H put that he wants SF 1x a week, and chose the option that when it happens, it is how he likes it, but it is not given as often as he likes...ummm...whiteboard, check-mark time! Or let Steve handle it...), but how can anything be resolved if the problems aren't brought forth???

I don't advocate for taking pity S, but if an advance by you is accepted, MILK IT. Enjoy. Remove the thoughts of the pityF from your head, and LOVE. Love her, with your whole being. This may sound odd to some folk, but I want to tell you this. When H and I got together, I felt a full spiritual connection to him. And I felt it when his spirit pulled away. And I persisted. I'd never felt that before, and I wanted to feel it again. Throw in kids, demands, etc...it's understandable, right? And then, one night well into our marriage, kids, demands, I wasn't really 'feeling it' as far as horndog goes, and we had S.

Not SF, just S, for me, at the start (I get in the mood pretty quickly).

And HE felt it. He finally felt what I'd felt. He said, "I felt you INSIDE me. You inhabited me."

(fwiw, I wasn't physically INSIDE him in any way, lol)

THAT's the sf I wish everyone had every time. But omg, once in a lifetime...I deem that quite special.

Hold, make advances, and TAKE the ones that are accepted. MAKE love. Give of your spirit, not your body.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by veejay
Hold, I think I'll have to go back and read your description of how you implemented plan A. (maybe I can learn from your experience. From the small amount I've read it looks like your wife is not following the MB program at all?

Do not in any way shape or form use me as an example of how to rebuild your marriage. I am probably the poster child for long term failure. I choose to wallow in bitterness and resentment rather than create a happy life for myself, with or without Mrs. Hold.

And don't worry about me sounding down. I am known around here as eeyore. I always sound down here. Funny thing is, last night my wife asked me why I have been so cheerful lately.

Quote
Does she accept that it is her and not you?

No. Because that isn't true. it is partly her. She was raped. More than once. Left scars. She wasn't aware of them until after we got married. She still claims they aren't there. I know it is a huge DJ, but I feel they are there but she refuses to acknowledge them because she is unprepared to deal with the fallout fo admitting they exist.

But that is not the whole truth. There is also the part that I am not physically attractive, not well endowed, not good in bed, so sex with me has probably never been very good for her. She told one of our sex counsellors that sex with me was wonderful, but I find that impossible to believe. To me it indicates how far into self-denial she is.

And then there is the financial issue. My family has much less money than she thougth we had. And I earn much less than she expected I would earn. She is bitterly disappointed by our lack of social and economic statute, and while she would say this has nothing to do with the lack of sex, I know it does.

I know I am speaking for her and that is frowned on at MB. MB would tell me to accept her explanations. But her statements do not line up with the facts. They do not line up with the lack of sex on our honeymoon or during our first year of marriage before the kids arrived. They do not line up with the tremendously irresponsible behavior on her part thaty started PRECISELY when I first seriously complained about the lack of sex after our 5th anniversary.

If the problem was truly my poor behavior from expressing my resentment, then there would have been more sex when I behaved in the ways she requested. Took her on fancy vacations. Behaved cheerfully. Even romantically. But none of that worked. Because the mechanism is not what she claims it to be.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:59 PM
hold, you WERE talking about your sex life with your friends, if you told those women you were fantasizing about every woman you passed in the hallway, and feeling dejected because they have no interest in you.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.

Well I thought that's what Plan A was all about? completely suspending the need for your own EN's to be met and to concentrate on eliminating your own LB's. i.e. temporary unconditional love? Or are we talking at cross purposes?

To me your question seems to be "How is Plan A even possible?". Unless I am totally understanding Plan A wrong?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:08 PM
I'll bet it crossed your mind how satisfying it could have been to clue your friends in on a few things, huh?

I'll bet you would have liked to say: "I think repetition will do that to any man in time."

Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.

Well, that thinking falls in the "entitlement" and I used to think that.

I began living this belief instead: "I am the only person in the world responsible for meeting my needs." When I started going in that reality, I became less "needy" of that ENs I felt entitled to, or expected from my M.

I had to become a whole person, capable of meeting my own needs.

This allows me to be not dependent on my spouse for my needs.

This does not contradict the EN philosophy of MB. Sure I have ENs, and when my W don't meet them, the Marriage and the Relationship suffers; but not my Self because I am capable of meeting my own needs.

So then, it becomes easy to discuss or express what I want from the M or R. But express them without the Love Busters (resentment, angry outburst, demands, judgementals, passive-aggressive behaviors) when the ENs are still not met.

You all know that there is a Plan A, and it leads to Plan B if ENs are not met.

It is when Plan A does not generate the results or positive progress, one needs to decide to proceed to Plan B.

I was at that point by the end of 2006. In my decisions to Plan B or Plan D, I had to work and change myself within to be able to proceed to such decisions.

In the process of changing me, the dynamics of my M also changes--and thus (so called rock the boat) and woke up my wife to the reality of the possibilities.

So she too decided to change. But for how much, depended on how she perceive my own changes are real, or if they are only temporary. So she continues and "tests" me; trigger buttons, provoking my old buttons and see if I revert to my own Love Busters.

Whatever habits / excuses / coping behaviors she used to interact with me, or to ignore my ENs does not work. I managed to improve on detaching myself from the fears of my ENs not being me which removed my dependence from her.

And so I began to "lead" my life the way I want, and I continue to invite her to be with me. But it is still her choice to follow my lead; or to discuss compromises.

However, the same way is true for her. She has her boundaries also, and I encourage her to speak up when there are unknown boundaries I cross. I do try to be more aware of these, and do put effort in accepting them, or disagree. She has flaws that I can learn to accept because it is part of her. Just as I have flaws that I need to learn to accept from myself; and her to accept that it is part of who I am.

My goal to get back to the "in love" feeling is no longer possible. What is possible is to create or change the Marriage to a state of mutual respect and acceptance. I think it is alright to be in the M because I choose to be married to her, and she also chooses to be married to me.

I fear less my emotional strength if she decides that she no longer wants to be married to me. Likewise, I feel emotionally comfortable to choose to not be married to her--but I am not emotionally ready for the risk of damage of such decision affecting my kids.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
hold, you WERE talking about your sex life with your friends, if you told those women you were fantasizing about every woman you passed in the hallway, and feeling dejected because they have no interest in you.

Then I guess I have no problem discussing that aspect of my sex life with friends. I don't discuss what Mrs. Hold and I do or don't do together. To me, that is a joint issue and not my place to disclose without her permission.

On the other hand, Mrs. Hold has made it clear that each of us is in total control of our own minds and our own bodies. Their is no sharing or becoming one between us. In that case, I feel I am free to discuss those aspects of my sex life inside my own head with whomever I choose.

I don't think she was upset that I shared my feelings. I think she wished I felt differently.

However, she did laugh when the guys came back from picking up some takeout food. As a goof, one of the guys counted how often he was distracted by a female on the walk to and from the takeout place 2 blocks away. We joked that he lost count when he ran out of fingers and toes. More confirmation that men are pigs.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:22 PM
No, Still_JM, I do not think SF is an entitlement.
I do not even have an EN for SF. I have an EN to express my affection and love for my wife, which sometimes includes SF both of us. If she isn't interested, I am not interested.

The way I got past resentment and keeping score was by working on myself, for the institution of my marriage, instead of for my wife, or for my own wants and needs. It is like being a team player, or "getting with the program" in the military in that it is a DUTY. I have a duty to do certain things well and cheerfully, like provide financial security and domestic support. Both husband and wife have a duty to meet the SF EN of each other.

I can identify with your experience of changing and having your wife be skeptical, even testing you. That is why I come to this forum, because I am working a plan that my wife thinks is artificial, so she refuses to read HNHN or fill out the ENQ and LBQ. Your wife, like mine, changes only as a reaction, not proactively.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:41 PM
Hold, you say that you don't want to divorce because of what it will do to you to be separated from your kids.

I'm not encouraging divorce by any means.

But have you asked yourself what it might mean to them someday to be products of this environment between you and Mrs. Hold?

Do you worry you are teaching your son how to duplicate what you have achieved (or failed to achieve) in life?

Do you worry that your daughter might be learning poor communication habits and transfer that over to her choice of a husband?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:44 PM
Eh...instinct, I think, Hold. Nature's way of making sure the human race continues.

If nothing else, it was probably good that she was part of the conversation, so that she could appreciate by those close to her that it's very normal for the average male to think this way and not just her husband.

Do you genuinely think she cared that you thought this way? Or was it that you just wanted her to feel that way - responsible for your mindset, perhaps?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Do you genuinely think she cared that you thought this way?

Yes. The tone in her voice when she taked about how I react and how other men react made her view of my reaction quite clear.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Hold, you say that you don't want to divorce because of what it will do to you to be separated from your kids.

Correct. Notice that I say "to be with my kids". Not for them. For me. It may be good for them. Or not. No way to know. All the studies say it can cut either way and no way to predict which way any kid will fall.

Quote
Do you worry you are teaching your son how to duplicate what you have achieved (or failed to achieve) in life?

Yes, we discuss this all the time. If I thought I would set a better example apart, I would leave. I think I would set an even worse example apart. I will not find another relationship, be happy, and flourish. I will sit in a dinky apartment throwing a permanent pity party. Being with my kids helps me be a better me than I would be divorced. Which is a pretty darn sad statement.

Quote
Do you worry that your daughter might be learning poor communication habits and transfer that over to her choice of a husband?

No idea. My D is a very chatty person. She is also into hugs and physical affection. We have discussed not marrying a "not into huggies" person.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
I'll bet it crossed your mind how satisfying it could have been to clue your friends in on a few things, huh?

I'll bet you would have liked to say: "I think repetition will do that to any man in time."

Sorry, you lost me on both statements.

Hmm, OK, I think the second means you think I wanted to tell my wife that repeated rejection will tear down any man? I don't believe this. Many. maybe most. Not all. But I guess you and I can agree that repeated rejection has a high risk of tearing down a man, so if you don't want your man torn down, don't reject him.

Still clueless on the first one.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:13 PM
What I meant, Hold, is that maybe after her disdainful remark about your feelings towards rejection, you wished you could have explained further to your friends why you feel as you do and why you said what you did.

Why would repeated rejection not tear a person down over time? I can't think of any personality type that would not eventually suffer from this. Hold, I think your wife is not comfortable with accountability. That's fine. Just keep that in mind for your own benefit. You give whatever she says and does far too much credence and seem to let it define who you are and how you view yourself. You have to remember her remarks are tinged with refusal to accept her part in it. It is far, far easier to deflect than to reflect, and it's what she's most comfortable doing. jmo.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:41 PM
I think what I'm learning here is that

1. Plan A can fail and one reason for this can be where the 'Temporary Angel' spouse continues operating from stuffed resentment. This makes the following advice I was given on my thread make even more sense- "do these things because you love him not because you hope to get xyz in return. If you do it purely for reciprocation then you are just being manipulative to get something you want and not acting out of love' (I've paraphrased this from memory)- thanks to the person who said this.

2. At some point (irrespective of whether there's been a plan A phase or not) Both partners have to make a sincere and honest effort with the MB program. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Anyway, hold as this is your thread I just have a couple more final comments for you.

A: Would you consider doing just one more Plan A stint to give it another try?

B: If no. Then I'll check in on your thread now and again - I've got some good tips on disengaging and mentally separating if that's the way you want to proceed.

Hold, I wish you all the very best - mainly I hope you get bored with "taking the poison" (LOL) and see the illogicality of it at some point. If not then - all I can say is ....all this self flagellation ...(jeesh) believe me...BTDT.....it's really a kind of dishonorable way of avoiding personal growth by saying "see look how I recognize my faults look how hard I beat myself up. I don't buy it Hold. Not one bit. It's a kind of a way of doing nothing whilst saying "I know I'm doing nothing - but look how guilty and sorry I am that I'm doing nothing! That makes me it all forgiveable right?" Wrong, Hold, it's a kind of cheating. I can say this to you Hold because I used to have exactly the same way of thinking. I learned, that in fact it's a very common defense mechanism (one of the sneakier ones!) and provides a perfect excuse for not changing. And it really isn't an honorable approach (no matter how hard you are on yourself - LOL).I don't know if I'm resonating with you at all. All I do know is that if you don't change your approach then your situation has zero chance of changing. and that's fine s'long as you realize this.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:17 PM
I found this on the Shrink for Men web site. Describes me perfectly.

If you believe the clich�, �You can�t love anyone else until you love yourself,� then there should be no pursuit of a love interest until you learn to love yourself. If you�re attracted to others who can�t love you in return, you�ll begin a futile cycle of pursuit and distancing behaviors. Think of it as �mutually assured unhappiness.�

This pattern of behavior typically reinforces your inner and oftentimes unacknowledged feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy. In other words, you seek intimacy and love from others who either can�t tolerate or aren�t capable of intimacy and love, which confirms your faulty beliefs about being undeserving or having to work for love.

Veejay, you are exactly correct. I am dishonorably avoiding personal growth. And I intend to continue doing so. I don't feel better about feeling guilty about it. I just don't feel like changing.

I have been taking the poison for years. I have been on an all poison, all the time diet since May 2005 when we stopped working on our marriage. I can make another 5 years.

Originally Posted by Veejay
Would you consider doing just one more Plan A stint to give it another try?

Not until the kids leave home. At this point, the playing field for conducting POJA negotiations is tilted in her favor. She can always play the Plan D card and blow me away. When the kids are gone, we can negotiate in a more even-handed manner. Maybe then I will give it one more try before leaving.

And thanks for offering tips on mentally disengaging. So far, I have found what works for me. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:22 PM
Hold,

Not for Plan A, B, S or D...not for saving your marriage...not for any reason but freedom for you...

would you please act from honesty in response to your W?

On the kiss on lips...where you assumed entitlement..."I hear you feel entitled because you're my wife, not a friend." Not even the "did I hear that right?" at the end...just honest.

Same with her statement about not all men...just you. "I hear disdain in your voice and in your words for me. That I don't measure up to other men you're comparing me to."

You're hearing...doesn't mean she's saying. Both have many ways to infer...and you pick one...the one that hurts worse...and you'd be surprised, after the self-stab...that even if she responds with "Yes, I meant to show my contempt"...doesn't hurt twice...

because you protect by picking the worst without honest confirmation or clarification. If it really hurt worse for your worst inference confirmed, you'd be doing that every time...to deepen the pain, solidify the resentment...prove yourself truly right.

And you don't.

So do. And you did a short while back...without your eye on her response...do it now, with your curious nature, your intrigued self...

for wishing you didn't have that constant rejection experience isn't the same as seeing you as inferior for it.

LA

(I cannot imagine your W has the acuity to shred you as you do in your own mind...you service your thirst for rejection non-stop, IMO. Like you're following The Rule of Rejection instead of Protection.)

Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:37 PM

Well, Hold you just have an answer for everything don't you? (that's about the 3rd time your posts have made me smile)

I'm starting to suspect you're quite happy in your unhappiness!

As someone who is NOT married to you I find you play the game in quite a charming and disarming way. I do feel sorry for your wife though - I hope she finds someone who is prepared to at least try and love her.

I have absolutely nothing left to say to you - except enjoy COD!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by veejay
I'm starting to suspect you're quite happy in your unhappiness!

Not happy. Comfortable. Deathly afraid of leaving my comfort zone. And dedicated to justifying my choice to stay here. Same as my wife. We are very well matched in that way.

Quote
I do feel sorry for your wife though - I hope she finds someone who is prepared to at least try and love her.

I feel sorry for both of us. I see her as a scared and lonely girl huddled in the corner. She has been hurt. She desperately wants to be loved and nursed back to health. Unfortunately, I did not come to see this side of her until far too late in the game. After my love bank had been run so deep into the red that I am unwilling to extend further "credit" in the hope that this can be turned around.

I share the same hope for her as you do. I just hope that she waits until after we are divorced to go looking.

And as in many things, we all need to be careful what we wish for. I tried to love her for many years. Tried to eliminate LBs. Tried to meet her ENs. But the more we spent enjoyable time together, the more I wanted sex. Drove me nuts. Which I had to hide. Which was stressful and exhausting. These days I am more at peace. The reality is unhappy. But more consistent. I can behave more in accordance with how I feel (if we aren't going to have much sex, I don't want to spend much time alone with you). Less stressful. Even if less happy.

Trust me, it was not better back when I was trying to love her.

Hmmm, if you mean, trying to love her in the way she prefers to be loved. Then yes, that would be good. But I can't do that. Nor can she do that for me. So eventually we will be better off apart. But not now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Why would repeated rejection not tear a person down over time?

Some would find it a spur to self improvement. They would use the repeated rejection as motivation to become richer, more educated, stronger, fitter, etc. They would TRY to overcome the rejection and achieve success. I gave up the game. Rather quickly and easily. Plenty of men have more cojones than that.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 11:48 PM
I guess there may be some, but I doubt success erases the pain.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:31 PM
This morning Mrs. Hold was very upset. S15 lost his basketball uniform and will be benched today. She has lots of work for D12's swim team. The dryer broke. She felt bad physically and couldn't decide whether to go to the gym. I gave her a hug. I got an erection holding her. She asked what she should do. I told her "take your husband to the bedroom and take advantage of circumstances". So I broke my "rule" not to initiate.

She consented. We tried something different than SOSO. It worked out OK.

Afterward I asked her "so is it more like the sex distracts you from worrying about the broken dryer or does the broken dryer distract you from the sex?" She said "that is a trick question I can't win by answering". I replied "not what I meant. I know your mind was elsewhere, but you consented anyway. Thank you for making such a loving and generous and caring gesture."
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:40 PM
Well, at least she consented, even if she was feeling bad physically. wink
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:41 PM
Wow, hold, if you're not careful you may end up with an improved marriage when you're not looking.

laugh
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:39 PM
So, is the dryer fixed?
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:43 PM
dred,

That's where his wife found the basketball uniform. His ds had stuffed it back through the vent hose and the dryer burnt out not being able to cool down.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:46 PM
We called Sears since it is on repair contract. They will be over Tuesday to fix it. So this weekend we will be at the laundromat.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:48 PM
Fix the basketball uniform? I didn't know sears does that, why not buy a new dryer that way your son will have a new uniform to wear.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:01 PM
I've overheated my dryer before...any chance that after it's cooled down and the vent hose is cleaned of debris/lint it will start again without a repair man?

Just wanted to remind everyone that dryer vent fires are one of the leading causes of house fires, from what I understand. Home Depot, etc., have cleaning kits for this sort of thing that you can do yourselves. We just had a family displaced a week ago in our area because of a fire caused this way.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:03 PM
Never use that flexible piping in back of your dryer, if possible. Also, definitely make sure you use metal flex if you must use flex. The white stuff is paper and it catches fire so quickly.
Laundromats suk, hold. Feel for you and the Mrs.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:30 PM
Dryer vents / piping are a pain. Especially in our house, where there is a long run from the dryer to the outside wall. A couple of years ago I installed a heat activated fan to pull the air through the tubing so the lint would get dry and exit the vent in the back of the house. Cut down on the clumps of wet lint in the tube. I still open it up occasionally and remove the lint. So I don't think lint buildup is the problem.

The problem is all the cheap appliances they build today. Then again, none of us want to pay more up front for better quality, so we don't get what we don't pay for. Hence the service contract. Would I happily pay the $150 the service contract cost toward buying a more expensive dryer that doesn't break? Sure. Now find me a dryer that won't break. At least this way I know Sears will come out within a week and fix it when it does break.

I don't mind laudromats. Slightly inconvenient to get to. But at least they have big machines and lots of dryers so you can get all the laundry done at once. At home you save the car ride and hanging at the 'mat, but you have to run the loads consecutively instead of all at once. So it can take all day to get the laundry done. If you are comfortable leaving your clothes "unguarded" at the 'mat, you can even do the grocery shopping while the stuff is in the washer (especially this time of year when you don't have to worry about finding melted ice cream all over your car's trunk), fold the delicates while the other stuff is drying, and be done with multiple tasks in an hour. No way to get all the laundry clean in an hour at home.

No, the laundromat doesn't bother me much. What bothered me was back when I was single, doing laundry in the laundry room of my apartment building at 10:00 Saturday night because I didn't have anything better to do. The good news was that no one else was doing laundry then so I never had to share machines. And since I was working 80+ hour weeks, that was basically the only time I was both home and awake.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:40 PM
6 year old appliance.

I had a dryer belt broke. I youtube a fix, ordered the part and fixed it myself. Part from Sears was $30, shipping was $20 (wtf?). Repair would have been $300.

The washer broke months later. I youtube a fix, but did not feel I was up to it, so I just called for repair and paid $300.
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:59 PM
Quote
Especially in our house, where there is a long run from the dryer to the outside wall.


Long runs are gonna be bad, move your output closer.
Quote
A couple of years ago I installed a heat activated fan to pull the air through the tubing so the lint would get dry and exit the vent in the back of the house
The fan plugs.
Move your output closer .
Quote
The problem is all the cheap appliances they build today

It has nothing to do with being cheap,.
It does have to do with understanding what you are using, they put load limits on things for a reason.

The average person should never have to run their washer and dryer everyday, "the average person".
Quote
the laundromat

They have comercial duty machines, the average person cannot afford those.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Still_JM
I had a dryer belt broke. I youtube a fix, ordered the part and fixed it myself. Part from Sears was $30, shipping was $20 (wtf?). Repair would have been $300.

The washer broke months later. I youtube a fix, but did not feel I was up to it, so I just called for repair and paid $300.

Yes, there is definitely a balance. As you may remember, I recently installed the new cooktop in the kitchen, which included widening the hole in the circuit box using a dremel tool. In past years I have changed belts, hoses, filters, and spark plugs on my tractor and repaired other home appliances.

However, for some reason, Sears makes the service contracts on kitchen and laundry appliances fairly attractive. I know that we could have paid $100 for one repair call for our dishwasher, or $150 for a service contract that includes both parts and labor. Turned out we needed a new electronic control panel that costs $200, plus the service tech had to come twice, which would have cost $200. So we got $400 of repairs for $150.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:08 PM
I haven't ever had a dryer break... except for the time I was trying to *thoroughly* clean all the lint out from the place where the lint tray? screen? goes. While sticking my hand in there - very tight squeeze! - I broke the plastic "wall".

I fixed it myself, using screws and washers to keep the broken pieces together.

Ended up with holes in all my clothes from where they caught on the screws and pieces of broken plastic.

doh2 rotflmao

When I was single, the most depressing things to do were going grocery shopping, going to the laundrymat, and putting gas in the car. I hated doing those three things alone.

Here's my Public Service Announcement: Apparently, in addition to cleaning the lint trap of lint, one should also *wash* the lint trap occasionally (once/year?). Especially if you use those horrid dryer sheets.

Try it: take your lint screen to the sink and run water "through" it. Does water tend to pool, not run so readily through the holes? Now try using a bit of hand soap to rinse it thoroughly, until the water runs freely through it.

Supposedly this will help your dryer to not overheat/wear out.

ETA: it should also shorten the time it takes for clothes to get dry. If it seems that it's taking longer and longer to dry your clothes, but you've cleaned the lint from all the appropriate places, try washing the lint screen.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:12 PM
Dred:

Thanks for the advice.

Hmmm, closer output. 5 feet of concrete porch around the front of the house where the dryer currently sits so can't punch a vent hole nearby, and anyway I don't think Mrs. Hold wants the lint venting near the front door or onto the front porch. Back of the basement is finished so can't move the dryer in that direction (the vent pipe passes overhead, but hidden in a drop cieling). I guess we could move the dryer to the north side of the basement near the oil tank, then run run the 240 volt and water over in that direction, as well as a discharge pipe to the septic system. I think I'd rather have a vent discharge issue every few years. wink
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:14 PM
jayne

Thanks. Never heard of that trick. Will try it once the dryer is repaired.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:19 PM
Jayne's advice is sound. One thing: most dryers' fine print in the instruction manual actually suggests monthly washing of the dryer lint screen with a soft brush, not just soap and water.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/18/10 04:02 PM
During the Golden Globe "pre-game" last night, I mentioned that Fergie's husband was handsome. Mrs. Hold replied (drumroll please) "not as handsome as you!"

Then she started clapping her hands and giggling and saying "I remembered to be nice! I remembered to be nice!"

I thanked her. Told her I was pleased. That she had finally passed the first class from the "Hold School of Laying It On Thick" and that I am looking forward to her enrolling in the more advanced classes.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 12:58 PM
Mrs. Hold s in Florida visiting her Dad who is having surgery tomorrow. I am Mr Mom this week. Wish me luck with all the juggling!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 01:03 PM
Best wishes hold!
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 01:42 PM
Ah, we all know you'll be fine!

Sending a prayer for her father.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 02:31 PM
A good opportunity to take them to the movies or ice skating or maybe even a short hike and winter picnic with cocoa and sandwiches. Have fun with it, Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
A good opportunity to take them to the movies or ice skating or maybe even a short hike and winter picnic with cocoa and sandwiches. Have fun with it, Hold.

Hmm, yes, well, both have to get to the school bus before 7 am so mornings are out. S15 has basketball practice every evening from 5:30 to 7:30 except the days when he has a game. D12 has swimming practice every night except Friday, generally starting between 5 and 6:30 and ending somewhere between 7:30 and 9:30 pm. Both have practice Saturday morning. D12 has a birthday party Saturday afternoon and she and I need to acquire a gift for the birthday girl before then. Sunday D12 must be dropped off at the pool at 5:30 am so they can drive to Albany (we are in CT) for a regional figures clinic. So I guess we could do a midnight hike with flashlights Friday night if any of us are awake!

Generally Mrs. Hold does the dropping off and I do the picking up on my way home from work. The only problem with doing both is that I have to leave work 3 to 5 hours earlier than I normally do. So I am getting here 2 hours early every day to try and make up for time "lost" at the other end. Hopefully I will learn to be more efficient! Oh my, maybe less time here at MB! wink
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:19 PM
Or...skip simultaneous practices in favor for some family time...

Kind of makes you realize what your wife was talking about with the running around with the kids, huh? Imagine having to leave work 3-5 hours earlier on a regular basis...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:22 PM
I have never doubted that Mrs. Hold makes a very important contribution to our family between 3:00 and 6:00 pm every weekday afternoon.

It is like the commercial for the Boys & Girls Clubs narrated by Denzel Washington. When do most kids get in trouble? Age 13? Age 17? No, between 3 and 6 in the afternoon if they aren't supervised.

I have the utmost respect for single parents. I don't see how they do it on a continual basis.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:41 PM
Me either, Hold. I know 2 women who raised their daughters on their own from the beginning, and I've always wondered how they did it. I think you just do what you have to do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:20 PM
Got through the week. Made dinner from scratch twice. Did all the laundry so Mrs. Hold came back to all clean clothes (except the ones in her suitcase). Updated schedule "on the fly" as several activities arose at the last minute. Could not do this every week because it cut into work time too much. But proud of myself for her absence causing the kids so little change to their schedules.

Mrs. Hold thanked me on her return for the house not being a total disaster. She was even willing to spoon when we got to bed, something she never permitted earlier in our marriage and which I sorely missed. I liked it. Did not feel bitter that it did not lead to sex. But did not feel connected, either.

Over the weekend, I realized how my life is not as I want it in many ways. My fault for not doing better at work. And my fault for giving in too easily to Mrs. Hold's preferences.

We almost never have any adults over for dinner. I would like to entertain more often. But Mrs. Hold refuses. She is embarrassed that our house is not fancier. She is embarrassed that we cannot afford to serve fancy food. I remember during one MC sesison the counsellor said "if you make rack of lamb with doilies on the bones every time, people wont' invite you over because they can't or won't reciprocate. Sometime you need to serve hot dogs or spaghetti or pizza so people can feel comfortable."

Sunday night we went for Indian food because D12 was at the synchro meet. So we went for a cuisine she can't eat (allergies). Of course, Mrs. Hold prefers the most expensive Indian restaurant in town. Yes, the plates and napkins are lovely. But every dish is several dollars more than the other places. I am tired of POJAing what we can and cannot afford. I am sure she is tired of POJAing and not being able to afford what she wants.

I need to live my life. If we cannot reach POJA as to what to do, well, then I guess we will drift further apart. We would probably both be happier with different partners.

We started talking about her parents and how they relate. How her mother reacted to her father having surgery and then having cardiac problems and being in ICU. Apparently her mother withdrew into herself and was not able to be as supportive as Mrs. Hold thought was appropriate. Mrs. Hold said she would be there for me. She said we are going to grow old and wrinkled together. That she is not done with me.

I imagine I will like that when the time comes. I'm just not enthused about having to live through the time between now and then. She is saying everything that I would want my wife to say. But I don't feel good about it. I don't feel loved. Probably because I don't love myself.

Just more rambling eeyore thoughts. Wishing everyone a happy Monday.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:31 PM
Well...one good thing about today, Hold. The temps are up - at least in my region. I hope they are there too.

Maybe for today, you can allow yourself to rest from analyzing how you feel about Mrs. Hold.

Professionally, what more could you be doing, reasonably, to improve things in that arena?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:55 PM
Rainy and dreary here. Matches my mood. Guess I should be glad it isn't snowing. This much rain would be a foot or more of snow. But snow is so much prettier.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 04:03 PM
It is prettier - and quieter. We're also having high winds, and a very large tree came down and landed on top of my neighbor's house a few hours ago. I walked over, and they are fine, but what a mess.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 05:12 PM
Kudos on your single-dad week. Sounds like you really rocked it.

Gotta ask, Hold, though...

Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"

About the Indian restaurant...did you end up at the expensive one? Can you choose the phrase, "I'm sorry, MrsHold...I can't go there because I would resent you for it." And offer a middle choice?

Not about what we can or not afford...the marriage cannot afford adding more resentment to the pile, from either of you.

Which you know.

More kudos on listening to her take on her own parents dynamic during stress. Nice partnering.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"

Can I hold off on the DJs long enough to embark on a conversation where we try to POJA a mutually enthusiastic solution to my desire to entertain more? No, I can't. My bad. I want more entertaining. But not enough to go through another conversation with Mrs. Hold in which every suggestion is shot down as not fancy enough.

I know, huge DJ that this time will be the same as prior times. I once suggested our neighbors come over for drinks on a Sunday afternoon. The neighbor's wife said something like "did you clear it with Mrs. Hold? You know how touchy she is about having people over." So I am not imagining that Mrs. Hold is touchy about it. I know I should have POJAd having them over with Mrs. Hold before inviting the neighbors.

Which is why I find this so depressing. I don't feel comfortable POJAing this with Mrs. Hold. I don't feel comfortable inviting people over without POJAing it. So I just suffer in silence. Feeding my resentment. My choice.

At this point, my "solution" is to seek a social life without Mrs. Hold. Through the Men's Club at temple. Through temple social events. Not events at our home. Does not build our marriage. But at least it gets my EN partially satisfied.

I hate my life. But not enough to change it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 06:15 PM
Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?

What's the worst that can happen? That she does old again? Which makes you right?

I understand you meeting this need safely with Men's Club. Just doesn't really meet it, given you thought about it and wanted to entertain.

Why not link it a tad? Have a Men's Club two-hour get together at your place? Let that be the ask new idea, with specifics...see, I'm not so sure you've asked with specifics before...so that you communicate your vision to MrsHold, instead of it being open-ended asking (old)...

I'm guessing. You know I'm guessing. Seeing where your thoughts dwell, in what isn't right now, gives you the hating your life feeling. Instead of not liking what went before for what it really was. When you ask new, you add dimension to the old...with new information.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?

Yes, exactly. The old is comfortable. The new is terrifying.

The problem is not in my lack of specifics. It is in our not being able to agree on specifics that allow both of us to be enthusiastic.

In years past we tried to brainstorm ideas so we could reach a POJA that was win-win. We pretty much never succeeded. At this point, the process is excruciating. We never get to win-win. And we are both exhausted from brainstorming. I don't want to have to work that hard. There has never been enough payoff to make the effort worthwhile.

Whereas the payoff from nursing my resentment is enormous.

At this point, when we attempt to POJA, it only leaves us feeling even more resentful that the other person has such different values and is so inflexible. It does not build loving feelings. It just fuels the bitterness. I'd rather spend the time playing video games. She'd rather watch tv. When the kids are grown, we can end the charade.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:16 PM
I would love to know if MrsHold's aversion to entertaining is feeling examined, rated, judged, filed.

Just another time I wanted to talk to her, on MB...as many times before. I think we have common ground, which exploring, could really help me in my marriage.

Just as you have, Hold.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:24 PM
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".

Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by lildoggie
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".

Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.

Ditto.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:13 PM
But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).

It has been 5 years since I spent time wondering how I could make the marriage better for Mrs. Hold. I have spent most of my time thinking how I could balance making it worse for her, but not so much worse that she decides to leave. I wish I could STOP thinking about my marriage.

I have reviewed old posts of mine. Asking how I could make our anniversary special. Or Valentine's Day. Or how to set my expectations for a vacation so I don't put too much pressure on her (or on myself). Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.

I wish I could get comfortable with leaving now. Staying under these conditions is ridiculous.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.

Gotta say a "sure" here...like inviting her to SF, spooning, complimenting her on her weight reduction, discussing DS's camps and what you'd be enthusiastic about.

These are not great measures for getting her to leave you alone, IMO. And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.

Were you asking me if how I think you've helped my own marriage? Only from the side?

smile

LA
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:45 PM
Add my name to the list who often think, "Gee I wish my H cared that much... tried that hard... " etc. Many times.

You are a catch. Really.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.

Who said I was trying to have a marriage now different than before? I am trying to maintain the status quo. We remain together but unhappy. I am not trying to change the unhappy part, because I do not believe that part can be changed without changing the together part.

Quote
Were you asking me how I think you've helped my own marriage?

Well, I cannot deny being curious. wink
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:22 PM
Wanna practice asking? You're a slippery one, sir.

laugh

(and I left out a word...not making the marriage better for MrsHold...is what I intended)

I said "seemed to me"...my impression...so that "who says" is answered by...

Me.

If you don't ask MrsHold if she's unhappy right now, and assume it's so...then you'll be sure to have her as a companion in your unhappiness. Still including her, arencha, Hold?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:42 PM
No, I do not want to practice asking. That is what I do NOT want to practice. Asked plenty for many years. Got shot down. I try hard not to ask directly anymore.

I don't assume Mrs. Hold is unhappy overall. I am not bothered if she is. She may be happy. Perhaps truly happy. Perhaps telling herself she is happy to avoid feeling obligated to change things. Because she doesn't want to leave, either. Perhaps she is unhappy. In my view, deservedly so.

However, she feels, I am not doing things to help increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate and meet my needs. There are plenty of times I "hear" her asking for more of my time and attention. I feel bad if I give in to her. I feel good if I reject her. That is a lousy way to feel.

I am the one who is unhappy. And I intend to stay this way. Which is why I am so depressed and distressed. I am making crazy choices. Knowingly. With no intention of stopping.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:55 PM
I wasn't asking you to ask MrsHold in my last post. I was saying that you hadn't really asked me about how you helped my marriage.

Came at it sideways, in my perception, twice.

In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?

You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.

For the recent choices you've made, I don't see you acting to increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate. The times I mentioned, you asked...not based on her possible response. Are ya slipping?

What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.

I'd ask you again, if the words you use in your head to tell your story today, are the original words you've used to tell the story of yourself to yourself. When in reality, the story has changed.

As all our stories do. Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.

LA
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 01:17 AM
Hold: Did you ever consider that your mental attitude could be taking a subtle but definite effect on your physical health? That you could be shaving some time off the end of your life? There have been studies that link happiness to increased health and better chances at longevity.

Don't you want to be around to be at your kids' weddings? Birth of grandchildren? Etc.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).
you could be correct in that the last time he spent a long period thinking about how miserable the M was he had an affair. Still I dont think he thinks about our M at all, and if he was thinking about it nowadays, he might have something more productive to add to the conversation when I say "How can I help make it better" than a shoulder shrug.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?

Asking is hard for me in general. In all areas.

Quote
You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.

When I said "together and unhappy, I meant together and ME unhappy". Whether she is happy or unhappy is only of concern to the extent that she is not sufficiently unhappy to leave.

Quote
Are ya slipping?

Yes, I do slip from time to time. Ask for something I want. Meet one of her needs. I have still not sufficiently purged my "nice guy" tendencies. Every so often I do something she enjoys. I tell myself it is just so she won't divorce me.

Quote
What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.

She may well want to grow old with me. It is one of her goals in life. She may even achieve her goal.

Quote
Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.

I understand that any process of improvement will be a series of slow changes. I am not willing to cooperate in that process. I want either grand gestures and huge breakthroughs or nothing. I would rather be miserable than participate in a process of slow incremental improvement. To me that process was too painful when attempted in the past, and I am not willing to endure that pain again for the chance that the outcome will be different this time. I know it might be. I am not willing to invest in seeing if it is.

I am miserable now. I was even more miserable back when I was trying for improvement. It hurts less to tell myself no improvement is possible. Hope = pain. Any time hope arises, I squash it. I will not allow myself to hope things can get better. It hurts too much when they don't.

Noticing small improvements does not help. It hurts. It creates hope. Which is pain. I know this is in my head. That I could choose a different perspective. I am married to this perspective. As I am married to my bitterness and resentment. Those marriages have been much more rewarding to me than my marriage to Mrs. Hold. They hurt. But they cause me less pain than she does. With them, I get exactly what I expect. With her, I am continually left disappointed. At this point, she cannot do enough to overcome my bitterness. I am not so cruel as to allow her to try.

I understand full well the problem here. To achieve happiness, I would have to admit the truth of how I feel. Which I refuse to do because I fear if we placed the full truth front and center where neither of us can deny it, she would choose to leave. The one choice I fear most of all. Since I cannot tolerate the chance she might leave if I told the truth, I cannot do that which is crucial to change and improvement. I know I am dooming myself. I can't bring myself to make a different choice.

Remember, part of the truth is that I have absolutely no intention of doing what it would take to meet her ENs. Become more confident / successful / attractive. Even if she does meet mine. I don't fear her leaving solely because she will refuse to meet my needs. I fear her leaving because the truth would include that I refuse to meet hers.

Which we all know is the real core truth here. I don't really fear her refusal. I fear her saying "yes I will". I fear myself. That I will fall short.

The reason I am confortable not pushing her to meet my needs is that I feel that justifies my not meeting hers. Which excuses me not even trying to do so. Which means I won't try and fail. I will choose to fail. So I can fail with much less guilt.

THAT is why I don't try to make things better. And until I am willing to change that, all talk of change on her point is irrelevant. In fact, from that perspective, change on her part to do a better job at meeting my needs is bad. Why the heck do you think I work so hard to reject any suggestion that she has changed or is getting better? I don't want her to get better. That would put pressure on me to get better myself. No, I like it exactly how it is. Each giving the other permission to fail.

Cerri did not "fire" us only because Mrs. Hold refused to change. I was just as stubborn and inflexible. I just talk a better game.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 05:55 PM
hope=pain
I totally get what you're saying, Hold.
You know, sometimes I actually DO feel better when I know something I've done makes H unhappy. His actions seem to deliberately make me unhappy, so if I do something to make him happy, I feel like he got the better of it.
Take fighting, for instance.
For the sake of the children, I try to avoid conflicts, which means avoiding conversations, with H. When a few weeks go by, and there have been no "conflicts," H is quite happy. He tells our MC that "things are getting better."
But in fact, from my perspective, they've only gotten worse. I've had to stifle all the things I want to say, just to avoid any fights. (full disclosure: I'm usually the one who loses her cool) So, every day that goes by without a fight makes H happier, and every day that goes by without a fight means another day I've choked down all my anger, so I feel worse.
When we eventually DO have a fight, and that is always inevitable, I think, deep down, I actually feel a sense of relief, that H is finally feeling some of the pain I'm feeling.
What a sick and twisted relationship I have!!!! Dang, it sounds even worse when I write about it smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 06:25 PM
ima, I've BTDT!!!

It's sorta like Dr. Harley says in the article about the WAW (I think)... about how one spouse will eventually stop complaining, and the other will think things are now getting better, when actually the one who stopped complaining feels worse than ever since the reasons they are unhappy are still going on and they are not being addressed or even discussed.

The key is to keep up the complaints... in a respectful way of course. But to keep telling your spouse when you are unhappy about something. And keep saying it. And keep saying it. In a respectful way of course. Just a statement of fact, of how you feel when X happens. State it before it gets to the point of an argument.

Like the article ML just posted.

It kinda goes against some of what we often encourage each other to do here, because we usually try to focus on what the person posting here can do to make their "side of the street" better. But that does *not* mean to "suck it up" or to "shut your mouth", even though it sometimes may sound like it, especially when we here are focusing on encouraging each other to eliminate LBs and meet ENs, to try to get our spouse to feel enough love toward us that they will want to meet our ENs.

But some spouses are just going to be happy that their ENs are being met and that you have stopped complaining.

That's why it's so great when ppl are getting phone counseling with SH. Because he can get a more complete picture, and he applies the entire concept of restoring love and intimacy whereas we each here tend to become focused on our favorite little piece of MB.

It was SH who told me to keep telling my H when I was unhappy. Even if my H called it nagging (as long as I did it respectfully!). Even when ppl here were advising me not to.

It's a fine line. It's best if you are talking to a pro, if you aren't sure how much is not enough and how much is too much.

Sorry for the T/J... it doesn't have to be a T/J, hold, but you probably don't want to try it again in your own M, do you?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 06:47 PM
This is the most relevant part of that article to this type of situation, I think:

Quote
It's very important for both you and your spouse to do a good job meeting each other's emotional needs, and avoiding behavior that causes each other's unhappiness. But when either of you have a complaint, I suggest that you use this procedure:

First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.

Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?

Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems, looking for a plan that would solve your problem, and at the same time take your spouse's feelings into account. Avoid any solution where one of you gains at the other's expense. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them. If you sacrifice for each other, in the end, you won't have the mutual love for each other that you want. But also recognize the importance of eventually finding a solution that solves the problem.

Finally, from your list of possible solutions, choose the one that has the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your spouse. That way, the solution will deposit love units into both of your Love Banks simultaneously. If you can't find one that meets that standard, keep brainstorming.

To guarantee your love for each other, you and your spouse must address each other's complaints as soon as they arise. Don't let your problems build up before you find solutions, because the longer you wait, the more love units you lose. But, if you're not careful, the way you go about presenting your problem and trying to find solutions can also cause you to lose love units.

You will not only deposit love units by solving the problems themselves, but you will also deposit love units in the very way you go about solving the problem, if you do it the right way.

Most couples lose love units whenever they have a conflict because they present their complaints with demands, disrespect and anger. And then they look for solutions that help one spouse but hurt the other. That's no way to resolve conflicts, and it's certainly no way to stay in love.

The better you become at stating your complaints with your spouse's feelings in mind, and then finding solutions with the same thoughtfulness, the more you will feel like getting to each problem immediately. But until you get to the place where you feel like presenting your problems as soon as they occur, do it anyway. Don't try to lower your expectations, and don't try to meet your own emotional needs. Instead, learn to become experts at meeting each other's emotional needs. That way you will have what you have always wanted -- a fulfilling and passionate marriage.
here

Oops, the link didn't cut-and-paste... it's in the thread titled something like "When to Complain".
Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 07:10 PM
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?

I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?

I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!
ZZZackly how I feel.
When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first.
Before me.
Before H.
Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that.
Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by imanotherone
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?

I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!
ZZZackly how I feel.
When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first.
Before me.
Before H.
Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that.


Don't you think that the children notice miserable parents? I remember telling my Mom and Dad when I was 12 that I wished they'd get divorced, because I really wanted to see them happy. When they finally did separate, we ALL sighed in relief. Mom was now happy and our time with Mom was much happier, and Dad was much happier, and our time together was quality as well. Much better than watching a miserable mother and father pretend to go through the motions for the "sake of the children".

I'm jumping in on a thread that has been existing for a long time - so I will just go on back to lurking on this thread.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:03 PM
THB: Thanks for your input. Sometimes it works that way. Glad it did for you. Not always. And hard to predict. There are successful divorces. And train wrecks. Some kids thrive. Some are decimated.

Given how nuts I am, can you reasonably predict that my divorce would be amicable and not a train wreck? Are you willing to bet my kids' futures on that prediction? I am not.

I am sure my unhappiness affects my kids negatively. That does not mean it affects them MORE negatively than divorce. It may be much less. I wish there was a way to know for sure how it would work out.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:04 PM
Ditto.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:16 PM
THB-you're correct, these things have been covered elsewhere, and the discussion about whether to "stay for the children" is as old as divorce.
If you came from a home where your parents "happily" divorced, then great. You're one of the lucky ones.
Most of the divorced couples I know:
1. Deal with a disgusting potential step-parent, or parade of new mommies or daddies before one finally takes.
2. Have the frustration of missing half of their children's milestones. You can't both be there for Christmas, for the dance recital, etc. So you get HALF.
3. Have kids that, whether deservedly or not, blame all their troubles on the divorce, especially in the teen years.
So it comes down to your personal experience, IMO. My personal experience says that I better stick this out, for their sake. When they're old enough, you can be darn sure I'm letting them know that my love for them was so great that I did this.
I don't need the "I just wish you and daddy had divorced" talk from my kids. My H has already shown a weakness for very young women, and I really don't want a near-teen raising my teen. Thank you very much.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:28 PM
ima,

dand, my W loves "discussions" or atleast she use to. I call them arguements, but she loves the back and forth, but hates to be wrong or not getting me to agree. She use to be good at getting me to agree to end the f------ arguement that drove me nuts. Now I just keep up with her and she loses it. I don't know why she does it though, b/c she knows they are opinions that will not change.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 03:15 AM
It sounds like the two of you are performing ritual confrontations. Consider the possibility that it is a safe place for both of you. You enable her and she enables you. You are going to have to get out of playing your game in order to force her to quit playing. Just my $0.02.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 04:47 AM
Does he want her to quit playing? Or does he like using her misbehavior to justify his own? I know I do.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 01:10 PM
So, basically what you guys are saying is that there's a reward for the type of behavior you're using with your spouses? As long as there's some measure of contention in the relationship, what they've put you through doesn't hurt so badly. Is that it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 04:07 PM
For me, it is a combination. One part is the fear that I cannot succeed. Not with my wife. Not with any woman. To the extent I fear I cannot succeed, I am looking for an excuse not to even try. My wife's misbehavior justifies my not even trying. Helps me be more comfortable with my (foolish, unhealthy, shortsighted) choice.

Second, the conflict shows that she is unhappy. If I am going to be unhappy (and I am), at least this way she is unhappy too. I know, not the most loving attitude. But at this point, after trying and failing for 8 years, it hurts less to fight than to cater to her needs with no reciprocation. When I do that, I feel like a wimpy doormat. When I refuse to do what she wants, I feel more powerful.

Dr. Harley would say "don't fight, negotiate to get your own needs met". BTDT. I have given up hope of getting my needs met.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 05:11 PM
It is a self empowering situation, Soolee, so yes it does seem that way. My W is kind of getting it though. She is finally figuring out that in a M there are TWO people, not employer and employee, which is how I was treated for years. Bad employee... demoted, good employee... a pat on the back. What she didn't understand is how that type of relationship was hurting our M, and me. She couldn't grasp that it wasn't working or why it wasn't working.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 01:22 PM
Mrs. Hold and I went to dinner with friends of hers from college Friday night. Saturday night we went to a party for a friend's child. Friday Mrs. Hold had 2 glasses of wine. When we got home, she asid "don't come near me or I'll puke on you." So I went and played PS3.

Saturday when the dj played a song I like I put my hand gently on the small of her back and nudged her toward to dance floor. She snapped "don't push me, I hate that". I replied "of course you don't, God forbid you should ever do anything I want". I know, bad Hold, not a loving response. Should have said "Good to know. I will never nudge you again."

Today I called her from work (got here early and computer froze twice so accomplished nothing from 6 to 8 am - argh) to tell her I sent the fax she asked me to send. Just a quick FYI. She wanted to stay on the phone longer. I cut her off. I got huge pleasure from cutting her off. She was asking for more connection. Emotional connection. More time being the object of my attention. I enjoyed rejecting her. After all the times she rejected me. It is a joy to turn the tables on her.

I know that is a bad secondary payoff. And I should strive to reach a win-win for both of us. But I do not believe a win-win is achievable. I do not believe my needs will ever get met. So I settle for emotional junk food.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 01:36 PM
Good morning Hold:

I'm not going to argue with you about marriagebuilding techniques and applying them, or resentment and its issues or any of that. I understand you are making the choices you are making, though it makes me sad and leaves me to wonder if there are areas of your life where you are getting enjoyment to help counter the misery of your marriage?

But FWIW, I absolutely *hate* being pushed along by my husband, my kids or anyone. I'm barely 5'2", have hovered near 110-115lbs most of my life and I just don't take up a lot of space in this world. It's very upsetting to be moved around like a china doll and I have been known to snap, even when it's inadvertent. I'm not justifying Mrs. Hold's actions--she certainly could have communicated her dislike of that action wtihout snapping...I'm just passing along a female perspective.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 02:33 PM
I know she dislikes being nudged. She has complained before. My bad for thoughtlessly doing it again. I should have verbally asked her if she was interested in dancing with me.

I know I should be all in or all out. Commit to doing whatever it takes to get both of our love banks back to positive balances. Or end it.

I am choosing to do neither. And getting what I signed up for.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 04:24 PM
I know how you feel, hold.
Because my H exerts much of his power over me by withholding information (that there's a babysitter coming over, that he purchased something expensive, etc.,) I like to withhold back, just so he gets a taste.
Yes, we're both engaging in independent behavior almost 24/7, but that's the physics of the relationship. For every action, there's an equal-but-opposite reaction. You play games with me, I play games with you.
Ain't no way I'm going to smile and play nice-wifey when H continues to emotionally torture me.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I know she dislikes being nudged. She has complained before. My bad for thoughtlessly doing it again. I should have verbally asked her if she was interested in dancing with me.

I know I should be all in or all out. Commit to doing whatever it takes to get both of our love banks back to positive balances. Or end it.

I am choosing to do neither. And getting what I signed up for.

Yep, choosing neither puts you in that exact place, either happy or misery.

In choosing to be all out; you can then begin to work on how to be in that place without really burning the bridge right now.

And it starts by looking within on what you want to change in your life; without having any dependence on her (actions, judgement, opinions).
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 03:07 PM
CWMIs thread really hit home today. She said she will not lower her standards and she expects more from her husband. I hope he is willing to accept that challenge.

If my wife told me she expects more from me, I would tell her to go fly. I know that does not make me a "buyer" in MB terms.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
CWMIs thread really hit home today. She said she will not lower her standards and she expects more from her husband. I hope he is willing to accept that challenge.

If my wife told me she expects more from me, I would tell her to go fly. I know that does not make me a "buyer" in MB terms.

Yup, good boundaries. I'm always interested in how it reciprocates though.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Yup, good boundaries. I'm always interested in how it reciprocates though.

I think CWMI has good boundaries. I do not. I should demand more from myself. I should have standards I will not compromise. I don't.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 05:17 PM
Hold,

I don't think you nudged thoughtlessly. I think you believe your wife should not dislike nudging. So you do it, anyway.

And whispering in her ear, hand on the lower back (not pushing at all), saying "I want to dance with you right now, to this particular song" isn't all in...just as not doing it is all out.

It's one moment, one way, with respect to what you want and to what you know she dislikes...so that you do not self-sabotage your wants. Like you know nudging did.

Maybe it's an old movie scene in your head, dashingly masculine, where her going with the nudge would make a big deposit, beyond even the dancing together...don't know. Take a look. Then I dare you to tell her what her choice would mean to you had she chosen differently.

And own up that you did that which you knew she disliked and expected her to not react to her feelings, but to do in spite of them. For you.

Which is exactly what you're often unwilling to do yourself.

And these are just two moments...not a plan to improve your marriage, not a plan to improve you or break or remove your resentment...

just you choosing two times to do differently, for the fun of seeing what's next. You might get to dance. You might not. You might dance right where you were standing.

She didn't get love deposits into your bank for not erping on ya?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 06:54 PM
I did nudge thoughtlessly. The memory that she dislikes nudging was wholly absent from my consciousness when I nudged her. Hopefully, her complaint will burn it more fully into my consciousness so I do not do it thoughtlessly in the future.

So the song starts. And I want to dance. I know she does not want to grab her hand and drag her onto the dance floor. Or nudge her toward it. So I ask her politely. Without nudging. And see what she says. Hmmmm.

Tell her how much it would mean to me for her to say "yes, I would love to dance with you?"

Nah. Too vulnerable. I would rather be quietly and desperately miserable than give her the opportunity to reject me yet again. Next time, I hope I remember that she hates being nudged so I can walk away before I betray my thoughts and give her a chance to reject me again. I'd much rather reject myself than let her do it.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
She didn't get love deposits into your bank for not erping on ya?

Erping???? Throwing up? No, no points for not throwing up on me. I'd rather she attempt sex and throw up than pre-emptively reject me.

I know how hard this is for her. That doesn't help me sympathize. It just convinces me that success is impossible so I might as well play video games and reject her as thoroughly as she rejects me.

She wanted a husband who does not press her for sex. Who is not constantly asking for sex. I told her years ago to be careful what she wished for - she might get it. Now she has it. Somehow I don't think it is as wonderful for her as she expected.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
for the fun of seeing what's next.

Fun? Fun in uncertainty? There is no fun in my life except when I am playing paintball or playing video games. There is certainly no fun that involves Mrs. Hold.

Years ago Starfish told me I need more fun in my life. Still relevant advice. Harley would say that fun should involve Mrs. Hold. Not. Going. To. Happen. Fun leads to desire. Desire leads to pain. Only way to avoid the pain is to forestall desire. There will be no fun involving Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:09 PM
HOLD, there is no way you can properly deal with a RUDE, MEAN, SELFISH, DYSFUNCTIONAL, STUBBORN woman.

NO ONE COULD DEAL WITH HER.

You have the disadvantage of TRYING to deal with her all these years and it has warped you so you are not looking at her with fresh eyes and cannot try new behaviors.

If you were to look at Mrs HOLD with fresh eyes, literally you would go blind. If you are to try and deal with her with new creative ideas, you would be banging your head against a large brick wall.

This woman you married is terribly RUDE, HURTFUL, and does not care about you or your feelings. No decent woman says "I will throw up" in the bedroom to tell you she does not want sex.

No decent woman says "Dont PUSH ME, I HATE THAT!" in public which is meant to DEEPLY HURT YOU, humiliate and control you.

Your wife is even more heinous now....than I remember her to be.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:11 PM
Your wife needs a husband who is either:

1. A RICH BUT SEXLESS PRIEST
2. A DIRTBAG IN A TRAILOR WHO SHE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SEX WITH
3. NO ONE AT ALL -IN OTHER WORDS SHE IS NOT FIT TO HAVE A HUSBAND.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:12 PM
So why don't you dance alone? I know you mean dancing figuratively, but I've done it literally, and it brought my partner to the floor. In my case, it was a convoluted mess of male/female roles, but it got him dancing, eventually, to the beat of dominant male/submissive female roles.

Literally.

And it took a societal message for him to take the role.

Hold, do you need a societal message for you to take the lead here?

I'll start: Hold, the success or failure of your stature as a husband and a man begin and end with you. Are you proud of your behavior today?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:13 PM
She is not heinous. She is wounded. As am I. Neither of us is working to overcome our dysfunction. So we remain dysfunctional. Individually. And most certainly together.

If we had any sense, we would divorce.

I come here every day and pour raw sewage on my open wounds. And then I wonder why they never heal.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:15 PM
Your wounds never heal because your wife dumps more sewage on them. Even though you vent it out here, we cannot make up for the sewage your wife dumps on you. I call it ABUSE.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:16 PM
Why can't your wife learn to speak nicely to you??? Instead of talking to you like the rude shrew that she is?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by canwemakeit
I'll start: Hold, the success or failure of your stature as a husband and a man begin and end with you. Are you proud of your behavior today?

No. And I have no intention of ever being proud of myself.

I sincerely wish that you have a husband who does not respond as I have. If my wife expects more of me, she is going to be disappointed. I don't care if I cut off my nose to spite my face. I get a payoff from her being disappointed that I never got while I was trying to succeed and trying to meet her needs. I am willing to sacrifice the rest of my life if it ensures that she remains as disappointed as I have been.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:26 PM
Hold...do you actually get anything out of MBers and the folks here? Just wondering.

You seem to enjoy eliciting attempts to encourage and/or cajole you, but what is it exactly that you're looking for?

How can we help you? Because I think many of us care about you and would really like to help. But we need to know how to do that in a way that it's actually going to make a positive difference for you.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I have no intention of ever being proud of myself.

I, for one, think you have qualities that you should be proud of. And I also think that your statements of intent are cries for admiration that you are sorely missing at home.

I also think that if you would pull your head outta your butt, you would see the path toward realization of your intent. I don't expect you to hear me, with your ears all blocked by your glutes and the contents of your colon.

GET YOUR HEAD OUTTA YORBUT!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:28 PM
I think you have fun with your kids...listening, being heard...the sharing...not an obvious kind of fun...and yet, if you really look at it, you experience the unknown each time you listen to them...there is a what next in their sharing...you already experience the unknown in that way, a tiny bit, with a precedent of safety, not rejection.

That's acceptable level of uncertainty to you. So is paintball and video games (you don't know what experience you'll have, how far you'll get...you do get the relief from distraction every single time, though, that cushion of distance, making time pass).

I know you had fun with you invited MrsHold to partake in SF twice in recent months...and had let go the response. Not vulnerable and not closed off...in between. I swear you had fun...and you did over the holidays in New York City...oh, and that was with MrsHold.

Your expectations lead to pain; they are premeditated resentments. Your experience varies.

Funny, though, how you forgot what was important to MrsHold (nudging), even though you knew it would ensure her rejection, how much she hates it, and yet, that didn't hit your radar. And you absolutely hated how much pain you felt when she did what you hated (spent anyway, promised and withheld sf, rejected your advances), didn't even hit her radar.

I think you lie to yourself so that fun does not lead to desire...and you have fun anyway (in ways you won't see). So you tell yourself you don't desire fun (in your formula) with MrsHold and assign it another name. You have companionship, a witness to you, who you are, right there by your side...and it's okay that you call her the enemy in your head, and sometimes in your actions...it's just another of many lies to yourself.

The biggest one is when you tell yourself all this is the truth.

LA

PS...what, you don't use "erping" for throwing up in your world? Seems my boys and DH used that..."Wyatt Erping". I missed the part where you told her you wanted sf with her after the wine. Did you?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:41 PM
Yes HOLD, you do lie alot to yourself. You LIE about being able to CHANGE THE MRS into a nice, normal, non shrewlike polite, kind, caring, non hurtful woman.

Here is what you need in a wife that MRS HOLD can never be nor does she ever want to be.

1. Loves lovemaking
2. Expressive in bed
3. Assertive in bed to get what she wants
4. Kind every day
5. Does not hurt feelings of those around her
6. Is not a shrew and expresses herself with class
7. Likes to make you happy
8. Likes to cook
9. Unselfish
10. Saves money
11. Works full time and saves her money
12. Does physical work around the house
13. Does not want a housekeeper, cleans her own home
14. Looks for ways to invest for the family
15. Studies to find a way for HOLD to retire early
16. Makes her home like a quiet pleasant haven
17. Is so nice that HOLD looks forward to coming home
18. Hold loves to be with her since she is so good to him.
19. Is a giver.
20. Loves and respects HOLD and is happy he is her husband.
21. Shows love and respect for HOLD in public and private.
22. Is polite and not shrill


Right now, your wife reminds me of that shrill actress on "Curb Your enthusiasm" you know, JEFF'S wife who yells at him constantly....with the black hair. Except worse. At least that woman does some of her own housework.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 07:59 PM
This post is just sad,very very sad! What is even more sad is that Hold is teaching his children that its ok and normal to live this way! How woud they know any different?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I missed the part where you told her you wanted sf with her after the wine. Did you?

You didn't miss anything. I did not mention sex. We had a nice time out with friends. Something we do only rarely. She knows when I have a good time with her present, I get horny. So she pre-empted any request for sex that I may have been considering. Just like she did on our 5th anniversary. The pre-emptive rejection that lead to me insisting on MC. Which, in hindsight, was a huge mistake. Should have kept my mouth shut. And just left.

Back then, I thought I could not do that to my kids (leaving). Now I see that they probably would have been better off if I had left.

She told me the room is spinning and she felt like puking so I would leave her alone. It worked. I left her alone. All weekend. Except for the nudge.

I don't know why I torture myself this way. Staying with her. Trying to stifle my desire for her. I feel like Sisyphus. I can't help wanting her. I know I can't have her anywhere near as often as I want. So I pretend I don't want her. It hurts so much to not be able to be myself. Just as I know it hurts her that I cannot accept her as she is. So much pain. We should separate so that each can be themselves without hurting the other.

Originally Posted by cwmi
You know what you need to do.

I know. Leave. Won't do it.

Or did you mean get my act together and man up and be the kind of man she would find attractive? No, I won't do that. I don't believe I could. And I wouldn't want to give her the satisfaction of being right. I'd rather be miserable than have her be right.

Like I said, I hope you are not married to someone like me.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by cwmi
You know what you need to do.

I know. Leave. Won't do it.

Or did you mean get my act together and man up and be the kind of man she would find attractive? No, I won't do that. I don't believe I could. And I wouldn't want to give her the satisfaction of being right. I'd rather be miserable than have her be right.

Like I said, I hope you are not married to someone like me.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I think I am married to someone exactly like you, who takes more pleasure in beating someone else than in claiming their own victory. You guys are so sad, and what a waste of time for the rest of us. What kind of pride can you have in being the total waste of someone else's time and emotions?

I'll ask you the Q I pose to my own H: are you proud of the man you are today? Could you die tomorrow, with pride in having done the best with the gifts you were given?

And...do you know that your life is not yet over?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/10 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by canwemakeit
are you proud of the man you are today?

No.

Originally Posted by canwemakeit
Could you die tomorrow, with pride in having done the best with the gifts you were given?

No, I have squandered my gifts. Still, I don't fear death. Death would be a welcome relief. I fear living much more.

Originally Posted by canwemakeit
And...do you know that your life is not yet over?

It is over. I have had all the kids I intend to have. I will never be "married happily ever after" to their mother. I have to choose between happiness and keeping my family together. My life is over either way.

It may be that your H could achieve "win-win". Perhaps he is capable of becoming the man you want him to be. And perhaps at that point you would enthusiastically meet his needs.

My wife has made it clear that she is unable to meet my needs no matter how I behave. I tried to meet her needs regardless. Eventually I felt like a wimpy doormat for behaving that way. So now I am more selfish. Not proud of that. But wouldn't be proud to continue being a doormat either. The only choice I would be proud of would be to leave. And that choice terrifies me. No, no pride here.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:02 AM
Oh Hold.

You are having a bad day, aren't you?

(I know, bad day, week, year, decade, etc...)

I'm sorry.

It's not fair... is it?

Not fair to want and to long and to desire and to ache... and to be rejected... again.

Last night, my husband got back from a 3 day trip. Kids and I were sick recovering from teh stomach flu. He wouldn't touch the tv clicker after me because he didn't want to get sick.

I know it's silly, but it hurt me. I told him, "You don't touch me, and I'm longing to be touched. Now you won't even touch the things that I touch. You may have a good reason, but it still hurts me."

I understand your pain, and I'm so very sorry for it. You deserve more. You convince yourself that you are a terrible person so you can try and believe that you do NOT deserve more.

I don' tknow why that falsely comforts us, but it is FALSE comfort.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:05 AM
Hold, I just read your last post and I wanna say something really quick - if I'm over-reacting, forgive me but after this past couple of weeks...

No matter how much you are hurting, you owe it to your kids to keep breathing. Ok? Just making sure that certain things are definitely not an option.

ETA - that sounds harsh. I don't mean it harsh. Just that my kids are waiting for me to read to them so I gotta hurry... Telly is saying comforting stuff, ITA. I'd offer *hugs* if that's ok between members of the opposite sex here... not sure... I'll be back later.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:08 PM
Good morning hold.

Reading back over yesterday's posts, I see you were mostly just answering questions; you didn't initiate the talk about your life being over. So I prolly was reading more into what you said than was intended. It still doesn't hurt to say, your life is NOT over! If nothing else, your kids still need you. You don't want to leave them alone with your wife, do you? *nudge*

Plus you have been reaching out, making new friends at your synagogue, right? And as your kids get older you can look forward to engaging with them in new ways, as they grow into adults and you can advise them on choices about college, dating, marriage... and then there's grandkids!

(I'm reminded of "That 70s Show" when Mrs. Foreman was feeling depressed over realizing she wouldn't ever have another baby... then Mr. Foreman mentioned grandkids. She beamed, and said "Grandkids! I forgot about grandkids!!!")

I'm sure you can think of other things to look forward to as well... if you wanted to.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:19 PM
Jayne and Telly, thanks for your concern. And Jayne, don't worry about me ending things. I don't have the guts. Plus, that would free Mrs. Hold to find another guy, who would then move in with her and D12 (13 on Saturday). That is the LAST thing I want. So unless God calls me before then, I can't do anything to myself until September 2015 at the earliest.

It has been 5 years since I "gave up" on our marriage. Only 5 years left until the kids are gone. I can handle that. Heck, it is 17.5 years of unhappy marriage and 12.5 since I started complaining seriously. Endure 5 more? Piece of cake.

Wow, just read what you wrote in vj's thread. So sorry to hear about all the negative events in your life recently. Please accept my sincere condolences.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:28 PM
I hear ya, Hold.
Last night, I was at our MC (H and I go separately--how's that for progress? not) and she gets so frustrated. She goes, "All H wants from you is that you be nicer."
I said, "When I'm nice, it makes H happy, but he continues to make me miserable. That makes me a sucker. He has already said he refuses to do the three things I need to feel safe in the M, (transparency, sharing in decisionmaking, sharing in finances). They're pretty simple, but he categorically refuses to budge."
I know your situation is SF, but it seems like whatever the deal breaker is--so be it. If there will be no compromise, then there will be no recovery.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 04:54 PM
Hold...if I'm out of line, please forgive me.

Have you ever done any reading about emotional pain addiction?

No offense intended.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 05:12 PM
Soolee:

I see nothing "out of line" with offering a suggestion or a line of research that I may not be aware of. You are just trying to help. Heck, even CWMI's suggestion to get my head out of my colon was meant to help. wink

Never heard of emotional pain addiction. But I have all the behavioral characteristics of an addict, so maybe that fits me.

Care to suggest resources?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 05:16 PM
Okay. For a while now I've wondered if you fit this sort of profile, but I was concerned about judging or labeling you because that isn't what I want to do. However, as I was reading this particular site (not sure how reliable it is, so please keep that in mind) I sort of thought of you. Maybe you can read it and just see what you think.

About emotional pain addiction...

Again...it's just for your knowledge, k? I'm not presuming to diagnose you or anything idiotic like that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 06:57 PM
Soolee, thank you for the link. That certainly sounds like me!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/10 07:04 PM
Or not...(shrug)

It could be something to discuss with an IC if you choose that route again at some point in the future.

Hang in there...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/10 04:22 PM
Tomorrow is D12's birthday. Parents are flying up from FL. Sis and BIL are driving up for dinner tonight from NYC. D12 is having some friends sleep over tomorrow night and Mrs. Hold is making dinner. Should be a nice weekend.

In prior years I would be stressed because so many visitors means no sex over the weekend. Today I am not upset over the prospect of no sex. More upset that I won't have any time to play video games. Not sure if that is progress or numbness.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/08/10 04:47 PM
Had a great time with the family over the weekend. Went to a "just guys" Super Bowl party last night with S15. Spent a few minutes watching tv with Mrs. Hold last night. She squeezed my ear, which is her way of displaying affection that I have learned to enjoy despite it being physically unpleasant at times. Nice weekend despite the lack of sex.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 02:44 PM
Last night we watched The Bachelor. It was the home visit episode. He meets the families of the last 4 women. I am amazed by the Dads. One Dad gave his blessing for them to get married. I was incredulous. This guy is dating 4 women and he wants the Dad to bless him? I guess I can respect his "player" skills but bless him for marrying my daughter?!?! If he asked me, I would say "come back 6 months after the show is over and tell me you still love her and we'll see".

I spent the hour lying on Mrs. Hold's thigh. She rubbed my ear. We are getting along very well. The only issue between us these days is sex. I am surprised how much hatred I continue to feel toward her over this issue. I have finally gotten used to the lack of sex. Accepted it. Last night I told her to get off the pill because we don't need them any more. We'll just stop having sex entirely. It is hardly a change from where we are now. She said she would talk to her doctor. I do not feel anger over the prospect of no sex. But I feel tremendous anger over the lack of sex in the past. Wierd.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 02:45 PM
Getting off the pill might make a sea change in her libido.
Posted By: Nanowritersix Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Getting off the pill might make a sea change in her libido.

Cue to begin singing "Isn't It Ironic?" in soft plaintive tones . . . .

TEEF

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Nanowritersix
Cue to begin singing "Isn't It Ironic?" in soft plaintive tones . . . .

Yes, it would be. If she starts coming on to me for sex, and I turn her down to play PS3, now THAT would be ironic. Sad. But ironic.

Seriously though, teenage boy across the street has a brain tumor. Neighbor little girl has been taken to the hospital twice this week with seizures. It is counting blessings time. We are very blessed. Lack of sex should be the worst thing that happens to us.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 07:38 PM
From CWMI's thread.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Leave it to you, Hold, to have married a smart lady.

You probably meant that as a compliment.

My uncle always says any man worth his salt wants a high maintenance woman for a wife. I always figured that meant I am not worth my salt, because I regret not having married a more compliant partner.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 08:57 PM
I did...to both of you. However, my statement lost it's context being moved over here.

:::grumbling:::

I never did understand the "worth his salt"...do you know the origin? I ask because I'm not a guy, either. And I believe you're both well-matched in the challenge department. But then, I believe we all are. God does not bring us to what he won't bring us through. All working together for good.

LA
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 09:14 PM
AMEN LA!

As much of an A$$ as I've been over the last year to my poor W, I have to count my blessings... kids are highly intelligent (not from me!), athletic and well liked by other kids AND their parents. We are all healthy and although the economy has thrown in a few wrenches, it hasn't stopped the motor!

God is good.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 09:15 PM
Hold,

That's odd, our friends have a neigboor with brain cancer, and their daughter was been to the hospital with 2 seizures. We think it was the gardesil shot for her.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 10:47 PM
hold, I just wanna say, YOU SO SMART! I truly admire your wit and wisdom. And, I never knew there was a scientific reason behind "Yes Dear."
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 10:55 PM
At one time soldiers in ancient Rome were paid, in part,
with a ration of salt called a solarium, from the Latin word
sal (which means salt). If a soldier's performance was not up to
standard, that soldier was said to be "not worth his salt."

Later, when salt was replaced with an actual money allowance
to buy the salt, the allowance itself was called a solarium.
Eventually, solarium came to mean the wages themselves,
and this led to our calling one's pay a salary.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 10:56 PM
"Worth his salt" is an expression dating to the Roman Empire.
Roman slaves were sent to the salt mines ( another expression we still use). Roman soldiers were paid partly in coin, and partly in salt, as a sort of bonus. They would then sell the salt, which was expensive, as were all spices. A good soldier was worth his salt.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 11:02 PM
Cross post!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 11:03 PM
Awesome Retread and Hold...thank you for that.

Well then, Hold, you've been worth your salt...and now I see how a high maintenance woman would actually be what you'd want...because she would make you earn more salt, be worth more rewards, over time, than you thought possible by yourself?

And I would think a solider worth his salt would require a lot from his wife, too...rather equally. And I think you both do, just not currently in the same way.

Does that mean Hold's spicy, too, Retread?

LA

PS - Themud...Amen right back to you, sir. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I did...to both of you.

I know. But it is misplaced. Neither of us was smart in choosing a partner. Or in reacting to our mistake.

I married a woman I thought was "above my pay grade", but I hoped to move higher on the ladder to deserve her. Mistake. I never did move higher on the ladder. She married me for what she expected I would earn. Mistake.

We both wish we were married to someone else. She wants someone who actually has as much money as she imagined I would have by this time. And I want someone who doesn't need that much money to be satisfied. Neither of us will ever get what we want while we stay together. Yet neither of us is motivated to leave.

Does not seem smart or wise to me.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
now I see how a high maintenance woman would actually be what you'd want...because she would make you earn more salt, be worth more rewards, over time, than you thought possible by yourself?

LA, the virtuous cycle you describe is what my uncle is aiming for. Each spouse encourages the other to greater achievement. Never worked that way for me and Mrs. Hold. We do not inspire the other to achievement. We just grind each other down lower and lower. We reinforce each other's worst tendencies. It has been a disaster from the beginning. Now we are both too stubborn to get out.

And FYI, althoguh I am sure you would predict my response, I do not agree that I have proven "worth my salt". I have been a failure professionally. And since the linch-pin of our marriage is my earning capacity, failure in my career outweighs any other aspect of our life together.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/10 11:55 PM
This thread is truely very sad. Hold has all the answers or reasons for why or why not and all the what ifs.Hold if you put a fraction of the effort in improving your marriage,happiness and your well being, as you put in with the time it takes to ponder all the reasons for not doing what many tell you might help(but you always have a reason for not)You might have a different out look on life,as well as your wife. You cant truely belive that with all your negativity in your respouces on this thread and as well in your life that it does nt effect your children,life, wife,job and ect. If you know that it does why than getting the attention to your thread have you not done anything to help your personal feelings. Writing about your self pitty does nt count! Have you been to the doctor? Why dont you do something for yourself? Do you like living in the self pitty? DO SOMETHIG TO HELP YOUR SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 12:58 AM
I have to agree with DSD: hold, you continually sound like you have given up, so what are you wanting to happen? You you need to talk to your uncle, and your wife needs to talk to your aunt.

If all your problems were removed tonight, where would you be tomorrow? Stuck in neutral. You can't have neutral as your goal in life; maybe for a goal next month, but your life needs positive goals.

Again, I suggest reading, "The Exceptional Seven Percent".
It's what marriage can be after you fix all the problems.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:17 AM
Or better yet, try something that we know works! Marriage Builders. It is an excellent program that really works when you work it. smile

Check into phone coaching with a trained, experienced, certified Marriage Builders coach here or the Marriage Builders weekend seminar March 19th & 20th, 2010
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:33 AM
Melody, the reason I first read HNHN is because I read "The Exceptional Seven Percent". They are not the same thing. They are not competing methods. Dr. Harley has a terrific, complete system for fixing what is broken and missing in your marriage. Dr. Popcak shows what is possible beyond that, and the the Relationship Pathway to get you from one level to the next.

The reason I recommend it is because it is not about the negative things in marriage, so it is not threatening. It is a positive vision of how to make good better. You can't embark on building an exceptional marriage without fixing all the problems first, and Harley's method is unbeatable for that.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:56 AM
Retread, people can and do embark on building exceptional marriages here every day using Marriage Builders concepts. One does not have to fix other problems [other than alcohol addition] in order to put it to work. You CAN embark on exceptional marriage building without fixing other problems. We do it here all the time. In fact, Dr Harley often says that trying to fix other problems is a distraction from fixing the problems in the marriage.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:59 AM
Melody, you don't have to convince me about Marriage Builders.
It is about fixing problems. I don't understand what these "other problems" are that you mention. I am referring to the problems on which Dr. Harley focuses.

I must disagree with you about embarking on an exceptional marriage before you have fixed a bad marriage and have a good marriage. It is impossible. That is the nature of progress.

I see TE7PC as the vision, and HNHN as the mechanics of the details. There is no conflict between the two.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Retread
I must disagree with you about embarking on an exceptional marriage before you have fixed a bad marriage and have a good marriage. It is impossible. That is the nature of progress.

Ok, it makes sense when you put it this way. I agree that one obviously has to repair the bad marriage in order to have a great marriage, which is what Marriage Builders does.

Quote
I see TE7PC as the vision, and HNHN as the mechanics of the details. There is no conflict between the two.

I am not sure what you are saying here, though. One does not have to go read another book to embark on Marriage Builders but it sounds like you are saying that is the case. Can you clarify?
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 05:18 AM
The Exceptional Seven Percent is not about fixing your marriage.
It is for those who already have good marriages to make them exceptional. Because it only marginally addresses bad behaviors, it is a totally positive vision of marriage. The reason I mention it to Hold is that he (and his wife) feel so low, that his goal is to just remove some of the pain. He doesn't even believe he can get back to zero.

Everyone needs a positive vision, a higher goal than survival.

I was discussing this with Mark1952 last year. Many of the people here are under the water. They are dying to just get to the surface to for a breath of fresh air. But once you save yourself from drowning, and look up there is a whole other world out there. You don't have to just kept treading water. There is land to walk on, mountains to climb, maybe even fly up to the clouds, like all these other creatures are doing.

Marriage Builders is tough, not because it is negative, but because it deals with eradicating the negative and developing positive behaviors... in yourself first. It holds up a mirror to you. It's like a physical fitness program that makes you stop drinking, smoking, and eating junk food, with regular exercise that makes you shed fat and tone up. We know how scary that is to people who are badly out of shape. The reason most of them can't even start such a fitness turnaround is that they cannot envision themselves as lean, healthy and full of energy. All they can see is the hard work.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 05:40 AM
Thanks for the explanation, Retread. I agree that hold is under water along with many others here. That is why I IMPLORE them to get coaching directly from the Harleys. MARRIAGE BUILDERS can lead anyone who uses it to an exceptional marriage. With a tried and true track record. Thirty years of demonstrated success is unheard of in this business.

If you read the book we are reading now, Effective Marriage Counseling, Dr Harley outlines the problem of motivation ["creative wilderness] in his book and how they are able to motivate people out of their wilderness. They are able to do remarkable things in marriages in a short period of time that leads them out of this wilderness.

Marriage is a quality of life issue that has a domino effect on the rest of one's life. It has affected every aspect of my life, my friendships, my career, my relationships with my family. When you fix a troubled marriage, the rest of one's life falls in line. And others here can have the same thing too, if they will just USE the program. I sense sometimes that folks don't understand the gold mine they are sitting on. If they would only use it.

I would refer good folks like hold to others on this board who do have exceptional marriages because most of them have something in common: they all used Marriage Builders.

Marriage Builders is the solution.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:13 PM
The first motivational problem is getting someone to even look at Marriage Builders. They have to want, just a enough, to improve their marriage that they will read one of the books or agree to phone counseling, or go to an MB Weekend seminar.

When I first read HNHN a few years ago, I was realized this was a complete package by a hands on counselor, who had failed for years, studied his failures, and developed a new set of methods by listening to his customers, using trial and error, testing and refinement. This is the same approach I use in my business consulting. It works. A systematic approach is the only want to diagnose and solve a system of problems.

But when I showed "His Needs, Her Needs" to my wife, she saw it as a book to change her. I told her, yes, and it is to change me, but only as part of changing marriage for the better. When she started reading it, the first few chapters are about affairs, and she formed the wrong impression that Dr. Harley is blaming the betrayed spouse for the affair. She is also of the mind that a person should follow their feelings, be who they are. She doesn't believe people can really change who they are, but only learn to put on an act. She put down the book and closed her mind.

A friend had noticed that my work habits had changed, and I told him I was making a conscious effort every time endless work commitment popped up, to ask myself if it interfered with my family life. If it did, I moved it. I told him about HNHN, which he borrowed. He did the same thing I had done, and got the same reaction. That is when I found this forum and started reading.

A book like FILSIL might have been a more positive approach, but I did not know about it at the time. "Lovebusters" gets right to the action, and it might be the best introduction. I have not read either one of those, because I understand the program. "The Exceptional Seven Percent" is something I wish my wife would read, but I am not talking about any of it. I just try to do it unilaterally for now. There is too much personal anxiety in her life right now to pay attention to anything else.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
The first motivational problem is getting someone to even look at Marriage Builders. They have to want, just a enough, to improve their marriage that they will read one of the books or agree to phone counseling, or go to an MB Weekend seminar.

I agree. And this is why I have recommended calling Steve Harley to those of you with reluctant spouses. He is often able to motivate them to try Marriage Builders by giving the reporting spouse a plan to attract them. You don't have to get your spouses agreement to coach with Steve, he counsels you ALONE and gives you a plan to attract the spouse. For example, Steve has given spouses word by word talking points to use with reluctant spouses that motivated them to get on phone with him. Once they get on the phone with him, he sells them on the program. He does the work, you don't have to.

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She is also of the mind that a person should follow their feelings, be who they are. She doesn't believe people can really change who they are, but only learn to put on an act. She put down the book and closed her mind.


Because she is what Dr Harley would call a freeloader. From Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.




Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:36 PM
Quote
I agree. And this is why I have recommended calling Steve Harley to those of you with reluctant spouses. He is often able to motivate them to try Marriage Builders by giving the reporting spouse a plan to attract them. You don't have to get your spouses agreement to coach with Steve, he counsels you ALONE and gives you a plan to attract the spouse. For example, Steve has given spouses word by word talking points to use with reluctant spouses that motivated them to get on phone with him. Once they get on the phone with him, he sells them on the program. He does the work, you don't have to.

This is almost exactly how it played out for me. Steve role-played with me to get my husband on the phone. Unfortuantely, I had to go a bit more hard-bore than that and move to the couch and file D papers. But he VERY RELUCTANTLY agreed to call Steve. And spent 1.5 hours on the phone with him. And emerged with a whole different attitude.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
This is almost exactly how it played out for me. Steve role-played with me to get my husband on the phone. Unfortuantely, I had to go a bit more hard-bore than that and move to the couch and file D papers. But he VERY RELUCTANTLY agreed to call Steve. And spent 1.5 hours on the phone with him. And emerged with a whole different attitude.

This is a good point, OH. I think that it is also important for a reluctant spouse to understand that the bar has been RAISED and that the status quo is no longer sufficient. I conveyed this same message to my H, that I was not willing to stay in a bad marriage. Not interested. When a spouse picks the bar up off the ground, things usually start changing for the better.

Harley talks about this in the back of Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders in how to change a freeloader into a buyer. He claims he was a freeloader in his relationship with Joyce and she managed to change him!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:05 PM
I disagree that my wife is a Free-loader or Renter, although she does seem to exhibit some of those traits. Part of the attitude of "just being natural and doing what you feel" is a message drummed into my generation by pop culture, music, movies, TV, books, college, women's lib, etc. The rest of it is external forces of anxiety over the political economy, family illness, and deaths.

I have come to be a bit less impatient with her, because I realize how much things outside her control and my control are causing her worry. Life for her is cloudy and raining, with just a patch of sunshine. That has led to an attitude that, "This is good as it gets."

I was paying close attention to everything she said last night, and when I, or one of the children ( 2 are back home now ) said we would do this or do that chore or errand, her comment was negative.
"Well, you didn't do it last week."
"You didn't do such a great job of cleaning the kitchen today."
"Why bother."

This is not normal for her, but has become normal. But you can't point out to someone that they are letting personal tragedies sour their entire outlook on life, without sounding like you are dismissing or minimalizing the very real fact that things are bad, and they have a right to be sad. Its like the effects of post-partum depression or menopause, or being injured and on pain killers: the person has to know there is a change in their world, but they deny it is inside them.

For myself, or Hold, or OurHouse, there is a right time to get someone to make the move to listen to a Steve Harley or whoever will get them focused on something positive that they can change.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
I disagree that my wife is a Free-loader or Renter, although she does seem to exhibit some of those traits. Part of the attitude of "just being natural and doing what you feel" is a message drummed into my generation by pop culture, music, movies, TV, books, college, women's lib, etc. The rest of it is external forces of anxiety over the political economy, family illness, and deaths. I disagree that my wife is a Free-loader or Renter, although she does seem to exhibit some of those traits. Part of the attitude of "just being natural and doing what you feel" is a message drummed into my generation by pop culture, music, movies, TV, books, college, women's lib, etc. The rest of it is external forces of anxiety over the political economy, family illness, and deaths.

Retread, but she doesn't exhibit any signs of being a buyer. It doesn't matter WHY a person got to be a freeloader, the definition is the same. If there is water coming in the roof, do you care if it is from a monsoon or a hurricane? The leak still has to be plugged. Are you sure you are being objective about this? Because what you described, coupled with her thoughtlessness towards your feelings is the definition of a freeloader, person who only does what comes naturally and won't do anything to maintain their marriage unless the spirit moves them.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
For myself, or Hold, or OurHouse, there is a right time to get someone to make the move to listen to a Steve Harley or whoever will get them focused on something positive that they can change.

I agree there is a "right time." The right time is when the unhappy spouse WANTS something other than the status quo enough to do something about it. [other than complain endlessly]
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:30 PM
Melody, you are right about pushing her, but as of last night, I think we are headed towards another funeral. Even weeks later, unless she is back to her cheerful self, my bringing up MB will sound like, "the unhappy spouse WANTS something". Instead, I am going to talk to one of her good friends, who is a pastor, and a female, and very good at approaching people in the right manner. Anything she says will be received more objectively.

On a side note: Mark1952's program at church got me thinking how I could get some things like that, and unemployment issues, going at our church. I just bought all the MB books for the church library. I was looking at the DVD set. If the books get checked out, I think I will donate the DVD course and free couples' ticket to MB Weekend, and let our pastors use it at their discretion. That should have to get the pastors' attention and make the take a look at MB.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Melody, you are right about pushing her, but as of last night, I think we are headed towards another funeral. Even weeks later, unless she is back to her cheerful self, my bringing up MB will sound like, "the unhappy spouse WANTS something".

Then why bring up MB at all? Instead start coaching with Steve and have him guide you in doing this. The fact that it is a problem in your marriage to bring up your unhappiness is not indicative of a buyers mentality, Retread. A spouse is supposed to tell their spouse when they are unhappy so they can make the necessary changes.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 04:17 PM
Just for the record, Retread, I called Steve on my own twice. I called him last March and again in November. His advice was the same both times (with regard to my husband): "let's talk about how we're going to get him here".

But in the meantime, there was LOTS Steve was able to accomplish with me and SO much I got out of my 2 hours (more like 3+hours...he so often goes over), that it was well worth it.

It was Steve helping me and the posters here who eventually opened my eyes to the fact that I had to make a stand. I was unhappy and like ML, I did NOT want to stay in the marriage I had. I kept that message short and simple to my husband. I even had it as my sig line for a while.

Bummer though..we had to cancel w/ him today. He was running over almost 45 min. And today our schools scheduled early release for the impending snowstorm (have not yet seen ONE snowflake...). So the kids will be home within a half hour and for our setup here at home, it's just not conducive to talking with Steve. Plus H is uncomfortable with it and it would be un-MB-like of me to push it.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Just for the record, Retread, I called Steve on my own twice. I called him last March and again in November. His advice was the same both times (with regard to my husband): "let's talk about how we're going to get him here".

But in the meantime, there was LOTS Steve was able to accomplish with me and SO much I got out of my 2 hours (more like 3+hours...he so often goes over), that it was well worth it.

It was Steve helping me and the posters here who eventually opened my eyes to the fact that I had to make a stand. I was unhappy and like ML, I did NOT want to stay in the marriage I had. I kept that message short and simple to my husband. I even had it as my sig line for a while.

Bummer though..we had to cancel w/ him today. He was running over almost 45 min. And today our schools scheduled early release for the impending snowstorm (have not yet seen ONE snowflake...). So the kids will be home within a half hour and for our setup here at home, it's just not conducive to talking with Steve. Plus H is uncomfortable with it and it would be un-MB-like of me to push it.

ML as in making love?

How often do you want that to happen in your M?
And does your H agree to that frequency?

Do you and your H discuss what involves in the ML?
Does he lead, or do you lead as to how it goes?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 07:16 PM
ML= MelodyLane
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 07:42 PM
I see both sides here rt and ml.

When one S is happy though, and thinks the other is being negative by complaining you end up in a losing situation. That is why many have to find a way to cope in their M, divorce or "When to call it quits". I do agree that complaining is necessary until it gets squashed in your face for years on end by S who doesn't see a problem.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 09:51 PM
When one spouse is satisfied (although not really happy), and the other spouse is unhappy, complaints tend to be seen as betrayal.

"I thought things were going just fine! How could you spring this on me?"

So then the unhappy spouse is suddenly responsible for upsetting the apple cart. They are the troublemaker, the malcontent. That's why, when things are not really bad (no yelling, fighting, affairs, wild spending, addiction, etc), there is a natural reluctance of one spouse to bring up the one thing that is making them unhappy. Of course, it is a powder keg, and eventually some spark will set it off. Withheld affection and sexual relations is the prime example.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/10 10:02 PM
My wife was reading to my son last night. We were all on the bed, and I was reading a Wilbur Smith novel. She stopped while my son was preoccupied with the dog and said real lightly, "I don't want you t leave me." I pretended I didn't hear it, and she went on reading to him.

I think she is starting to get the picture.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
I have to agree with DSD: hold, you continually sound like you have given up, so what are you wanting to happen?

I have given up. I am wanting life to be over. Don't worry, I won't kill myself. Don't have the guts. But I am not trying to live, either.

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If all your problems were removed tonight, where would you be tomorrow?

If I hit the lottery, I would stay home and play video games all day. To distract myself from the pain. Or maybe finally get the ECT. If I didn't need to keep working, no reason not to take the chance of burning my brains out.

Quote
Again, I suggest reading, "The Exceptional Seven Percent". It's what marriage can be after you fix all the problems.

I am not interested in fixing the problems in my marriage. That would require me to do some work. To try. I would have to clean up my side of the street. I am not interested in cleaning up my side of the street. I live in bitterness and resentment and frustration and that is where I am confortable. I am not interested in becoming happy or satisfied. I am only interested in numb.

Melody, that is why I would not try a MB weekend or counselling with the Harleys. They will ask me to improve my behavior. That I refuse to do.

I am cutting off my nose to spite my face. And at this point, the behavior and neural pathways are so deeply embedded that I cannot imagine there is anything anyone, not even Mrs. Hold, could do to get me to stray from this path.

I don't FEEL anything except pain anymore. Had a nice weekend with my family. Felt nothing. Opportunities arise at work. I feel nothing except irritation. I just want everyone to go away and leave me alone. I do not get happy or excited about anything. Not even sex. There are times I sense I could get Mrs. Hold to consent if I "made a move" and I don't bother trying.

Like I said, I have given up.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 09:30 PM
My whole life is a lie. I am afraid of being me. So I hide. I wonder how much of this Mrs. Hold knows. I wonder how far she is willing to go to ignore the truth. We both live in denial. So well matched.
Posted By: Starpony Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 09:35 PM
Hey hoti...

Long, long, time. I found your post so sad and discouraging - how do you do it? Is there ever any light in the tunnel? It's been 10 years or something hasn't it?

hang in there my friend...

Starpony
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 09:38 PM
I was actually very happy to read what she said about not wanting you to leave... I didn't post how excited I was for you though, cus I knew you'd downplay it.

I triple-dog dare you to print out your post from this morning and give it to her.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 09:46 PM
That was mud, not hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/11/10 09:54 PM
Mrs. Hold tells me frequently that she wants to keep me around and she isn't done with me. I smile and say thank you. Because I know she means it as a compliment. That she isn't done sharing events and memories with me.

Then I leave the room and feel like puking. Because our marriage has mostly felt like torture and torment for me. She isn't done torturing and tormenting me? And she wants me to be happy about that?

It is like when someone is in the fog of an affair. And the WS rewrites history to say "I never really loved you. I was never happy in our marriage." That is how I feel. Not sure if it is accurate or a rewrite. But how to make it end? In affairs, the affair ends and the WS implements no contact and the fog lifts and they fall back in love with their spouse. But how do I end my affair? How do I get out of the fog where I keep telling myself I hate my wife and the marriage has been unhappy since our honeymoon?

How do I even know it IS a fog? I have felt this way consistently since I got here in 2002. I consistently told all our MC's I was unhappy starting in 1997. How do I know how much is fog and how much is simply consistently not getting my ENs met? I may not be trying to get my needs met now, but I was trying up until 2005 when we stopped MC. Do I have to go back to trying to get our of this fog? I can't imagine what would motivate me to do that.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 02:17 AM
Hold,

Why don't you print up this page... Page 52, with the 3-4 posts from you, and hand it to your wife.

If she hasn't gotten it before, she might get it when she reads your unfiltered words.

She needs to know how much pain you are in.

I am sad to say that I understand your feelings, sometimes more than I care to admit.

((((Hold))))))

Would you consider giving her the pages? What do you have to lose?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
Why don't you print up this page... Page 52, with the 3-4 posts from you, and hand it to your wife.

Because she might choose to leave me.

Quote
She needs to know how much pain you are in.

No, she would just withdraw. And lose respect for me. I know, DJ to think I can predict how she would react. But we spent 8 years in MC. I opened my heart to her. Told her how much I needed her. And she told me to go fly. I am not opening myself up to that kind of rejection again.

I will tell her in 5 years. I just have to be strong and endure for 5 years. Then I can tell her everything. And if she chooss to leave, good riddance! I have lived with depression for over 30 years (if not my whole life). I can make 5 more no matter how bad they are. I am strong!
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 06:14 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!

Thank you. It will be a good one. Tonight is our firm's Mardi Gras party. Run every year by the estate administration paralegals. They have asked me to serve as "Mayor" this year. Basically master of ceremonies. I have a sash of office as well as a crown and robe and sceptre.

Best wishes to you as well. You are doing a wonderful thing in organizing a study class. I hope it brings much satisfaction to all the participants.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 07:23 PM
So how does a nice Jewish boy ends up as Mayor for a Mardi Gras party?

And on Shabbat?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 08:12 PM
Because I bought the costume for our shul's Purim party early? And it happens to be purple and gold, so it matches Mardi Gras colors?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/12/10 09:23 PM
Bought Mrs. Hold her V-Day gift today. Loose tea. Tea filters. Tea infuser. Not sure why I did that. Appearances? To keep up the charade for the kids? So I could feed my resentment? Hmmm.

Need to get something for D13. She got something for S15 and for me.
Posted By: SunnyDaze Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/13/10 06:34 PM
Why would you buy your wife tea to keep up appearances or a charade for your kids? Do you want your kids to learn to keep up charades?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/13/10 06:37 PM
HOLD, what if anything did your wife get YOU for Valentine's day?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/16/10 02:04 PM
She got me a big jug of Passover wine. It took me 6+ months to finish off the last one. It is super sweet so I like to mix it with tonic water or club soda and make a spritzer.

D13 was especially pleased that we made a big deal of valentine's since she went shopping with her own money and got S15 and I gifts. Candy with nuts - despite her nut allegy. She wanted to show us she loves us enough to let us eat nuts in the house.

Mrs. Hold was very pleased that S15 and I went to such effort. He and I am a buddy of his had dinner at the mall Saturday and then bought D13 a cute t-shirt. The boys picked it out and D13 was thrilled that her brother was willing to walk into a "girly store" to get her something.

Mrs. Hold and I had a very relaxed and (for us) lengthy sex session Monday morning. We are both learning to deal with my far less responsive getting old body. I did not orgasm but I enjoyed the session. This morning on the way to work I explained to Mrs. Hold (snow here and my car could not get out of the driveway so she had to drive me in her SUV) that some of the techniques she learned when having sex with younger men don't work on this old dog. So we are both going to have to learn what works and what doesn't.

Best wishes to all for a fulfilling week.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/16/10 05:11 PM
Sounds like a very pleasant valentines. The day came and went in our house without so much as a mention from anyone. DS9 said this morning, "hey, we missed valentine's day."
Yeah, whatever. Finish your cereal, buddy!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/16/10 07:15 PM
Hold, your story about D13 loving everyone enough to want them to have candy with nuts in teh ouse was very sweet. What a lovely girl she must be.

Happy for you about other events of the weekend, too.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/16/10 07:34 PM
We are so blessed with both our kids. That is why I want to continue living with them. Can you believe that I got S15 to go into Delia and buy a t-shirt for his little sister?!?! They had a wall of t-shirts. At least 50 styles. He knew immediately which one she would like. I would have had no clue how to choose.

Mrs. Hold was also very appreciative when she got home. Half a dozen Moms made the trip to the swim tournament to chaperone. Several of them did nothing for Valentine's. Several of them did not speak to their husbands the entire weekend. Mrs. Hold was shocked. She said she could not imagine being in that kind of marriage. I don't think she realizes how close she has come to that.

She made a silly "kissy face" in my direction last might and again this morning. She used to chastise me for making silly "goo-goo eyes" faces. I have to fight against the desire to have hope.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 03:45 PM
I really think so much of her rejection of you has been a rejection of herself.

Perhaps there IS reason to hope. she may just feel better about herself and therefore more able to engage in her marriage.

It probably helps that you have (inadvertantly) left some of the pacing of closeness be determined by her.

Perhaps by withdrawing, you are seeing what amount of closeness she wants to pursue on her OWN.

I have long thought that if I could leave off my husband for a good long while (what feels like TOO LONG FOR ME), then I might see him swing back towards wanting to initiate all sorts of things.

But for you and me (people who long for closeness/physical intimacy), it can take going into withdrawel to give our spouse the space they need.

I think both our spouses feel smothered VERY EASILY.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 03:46 PM
ANd yes, you are blessed by your children. How beautiful.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
I really think so much of her rejection of you has been a rejection of herself.

Quite possible. She said something interesting yesterday. I complimented her on reaching the milestone of having lost 50 pounds. Quite and accomplishment. She is about to cross another "decade" milestone from the 140s into the 130s. Big kudos to her.

She said "losing this weight is the 2nd hardest thing I have ever done. The hardest thing was getting married. I was not ready to share. I finally feel that I am comfortable being married." I asked her what enabled her to be comfortable. She said "I like you."

I said "you are lucky you married me. If I were any less wonderful, you probably would never have become comfortable being married." She replied "you are probably right."

Ooh, ooh, I am getting better at accepting compliments!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 08:06 PM
OMG, Hold. She just opened up her innards and let them all hang out there for you to see. Wow.

Good job not slicing and dicing them!

I am hopeful for you.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 08:20 PM
You accept compliments when they are sincere and when they actually mean something to you.

You ARE seeing positive changes (albeit small, and I get "being cautious")--and she acknoweledged the things that have come between you... her unwillingness to share herself. Her weight was probably a way to avoid sharing.

Be careful, Hold. Things could improve--and then Eeyore might have to come out from under the raincloud... :-)

Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
OMG, Hold. She just opened up her innards and let them all hang out there for you to see. Wow.

Good job not slicing and dicing them!

I am hopeful for you.

Ditto!
clap

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/10 11:10 PM
So the "I am so great" line wasn't too snarky?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/18/10 12:50 AM
Depends entirely on tone. It's hard to tell tone here on the computer screen. But judging what I've read of your posts, I'm guessing the tone was pretty non-assuming and humble and sort of tongue-in-cheek, which would make it sweet, not snarky. What's most important though, was how SHE responded; we're just reading along here, not married to you. Her response was a good one, so she obviously didn't think you were snarky.

And that's what matters!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/10 03:42 PM
We offered to let one of S15's friends stay over a couple of nights while his parents go visit their daughter at college. They were going to ask several families to help out since they would be away a while. In the end, no one else offered and we got all 5 nights. Mrs. Hold had been planning to run some errands with S15 this week because it is vacation so she has him home during the day. Yesterday she said she would put the errands off because she didn't want to drag the friend around running errands. I told her that we are housing and feeding someone else's teenage son for 5 days. We have already gone above and beyond. So if it is more convenient for her to run the errands today, she should go and drag the friend and not tolerate any complaints he is bored. Imagine how bored he would be if his parents dragged him to visit his sister for 5 days!

Mrs. Hold still feels guilty. Am I being too harsh?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/10 03:58 PM
Hmm... I agree with your reasoning, absolutely. But if *she* feels so guilty that she does not *want* to do the errands, then she has the right to decide to wait to do the errands. Even if you feel it would be ok, she may feel uncomfortable.

If she just needs reassurance from you that it's ok to do the errands now, then give it. But I don't think it would be good to convince her to do something she actually does not *want* to do because her comfort level is different from yours.

What about leaving the 15 year old guest at your house, would y'all be comfortable with that?

ETA: or drop him off somewhere, the mall, a movie, a rec center...?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/10 04:03 PM
I did not force or demand or even encourage her after the first conversation. I said I thought it would be OK but it is up to her. And (Baba forgive me) I gave her a credit card to pay for what S15 needs.

I also suggested that she ask whether he prefers to come along or she could drop him off at the commuity center and he could play basketball while Mrs. Hold and S15 shop. So I agree with your idea of dropping him off.

I am not enthusiastic about leaving someone else's 15 year old son alone with D13. Or alone in our house assuming we find somwhere else for her to go. He is basically a good kid but stuff happens.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/10 04:13 PM
Ok, gotcha. I completely understand about not leaving him alone in your house, I hadn't thought of that, having only sons who are still just babies.

Just babies, I say!!!

So did she decide to drop him off?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 04:06 PM
Got our other "son" returned home yesterday. The other family was a class act and got us a gift certificate to a fancy local restaurant as thanks for "boarding" their son. Unexpected. Welcome.

I told Mrs. Hold that I do not want a big party or event to celebrate my 50th birthday. We had a big party for my 40th and I had a terrible time and fell into a depression from which I have never really recovered. She was sad to hear I am so disappointed in my life but promised she will respect my wishes.

We had good intimacy. No sex. Which is pretty much where my head is these days. I still resent her enormously. In the past that did not interfere with my desire for her. Now it does.

She said I am messed in the head and need help. I said we both are. She said "yes, 2 peas in a pod." I said "it is too bad that we could only hurt one another and not help each other heal. It would have been a beautiful thing to heal each other."

Of course, people do not heal each other. They have to heal themselves first.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 04:18 PM
Kudos to you for telling her how you feel about these things.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 04:51 PM
Hold, how did she do with the credit card? Did she show you receipts when she got home and gave back the card?

And kudos, too, for your O&H. And I think those parents reflect you...you and MrsHold are class acts, too.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 08:49 PM
She never went shopping. She did not want to drag the other kid.

She hasn't given me the card back yet. S15 hurt his ankle at the BB game Friday so he can't try on flippers. Maybe this coming weekend. Guess I should ask Mrs. Hold for the card back so she doesn't get tempted to use it between now and then.

As for me and Mrs. Hold, not sure what we are. Too foolish to stand up for ourselves? How come we were willing to take 5 nights and no other parents were even willing to take 1 night? Hmmmm, or maybe the kid wanted all 5 nights with us? Maybe he figured the family with the Dad who plays video games was the best choice for "hotel"? Hmmmm. Didn't think of that before. In fact, one of the other kids whose family was asked to "host" visiting kid stayed with us Friday night and his parents had to drag him home late Saturday because he was having so much fun playing with S15 and our "adopted" son. And you should have seen the enormous pile of chocolate chip pancakes that D13 made for S15 and his friends Saturday morning. Maybe the kids know we are the best place to crash! Even if we don't have a 4th bedroom and the friends had to crash on double stacked air mattresses in the living room.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 09:13 PM
Yes, asking for it back would be an act of love and protection for your wife. Which means, you might not.

lol

Sorry about S15's ankle...you boys. smile

Yes, you might just be the fun house. You might also be the house about the kids...all about the kids. I dunno. You might also be the adventurous family...or it's your S15 that's the draw.

smile

What did you ask for your 50th bday specifically from your wife?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
What did you ask for your 50th bday specifically from your wife?

Nothing. She had "girls night" on Saturday. They realized that they will all be turning 50 the same year (several years from now). They fantasized about a joint trip or joint party.

My 50th is before theirs. Mrs. Hold said something like "what are we doing for yours?" I said "nothing, and tell my mother too (God willing she will still be with us)". She said "yes, your mother will probably ask, and the kids will expect to do something, so we can't do nothing. But we can be much lower key than for your 40th."

I am not sure I want anything from Mrs. Hold for my 50th. Just not to spend too much between now and then and not make a big deal of it when it arrives. In prior years I would have asked for something sexual. Now I am ashamed to ask because even if she were willing I have no confidence I am able. And I would feel like a jerk for foisting myself on her so I would feel guilty afterward.

The only gift I want for my 50th is not to be so depressed and pessimistic. To feel like I have a reason to continue living. And that is a gift only I can give myself.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 09:57 PM
Tell the wife for your birthday you want "A reason, any reason...NOT TO DIVORCE HER!"

And then secondly, "A reason to live"
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 10:50 PM
I have 2 good reasons not to divorce her.

And I have plenty of reasons to live. If I choose to view them that way.

She cannot give me a reason to live. I have to want that for myself. Right now, I am more comfortable living with frustration and resentment and rage and misery. I am not comfortable living with success and satisfaction and joy. That needs to change. I wish I knew how.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/22/10 11:50 PM
Look at these two sentences:

~WHAT REASON DO I HAVE TO STAY MARRIED TO MRS HOLD

~WHAT REASON COULD MRS HOLD GIVE ME TO HAVE ME WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HER?

These statements have two completely different meanings.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 12:36 AM
Hold,

With all resentment still held onto, and the other M problems I have, all I can say is hang in there.

OMG Bubbles... our SF life has been many fold better since you and cat, and OH helped me write that contract. I can only say that she lost control the other night. I haven't seen her like that since I don't remember! Thanks.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 01:17 AM
I like it MUD!!!!! YAY for our side!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
~WHAT REASON COULD MRS HOLD GIVE ME TO HAVE ME WANT TO STAY MARRIED TO HER?

Understood. I could have my reasons regardless of her behavior. Then there are additional reasons she could provide through her behavior.

But that depends on what "could" means. I don't think she can give me those reasons unless I earn lots more money. I am not prepared to even try to earn more money. So she cannot give me more. And I am partly responsible for that.

Perhaps another woman could give me those reasons without requiring the extra income first. That doesn't mean Mrs. Hold can.

Just as another woman without her history might be able to behave in ways that she cannot. Doesn't mean she can.

The question is what do I do about her inability? Do I let it define me? Bind me? Destroy me? Or do I choose to thrive despite her inability to meet certain of my needs? So far I have chosen to curl up into a ball and throw a temper tanrum and withdraw from life. I could make healthier choices.

Mud So glad to hear about your wife's success. And yours. Kudos to both fo you.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 03:54 PM
Well, mud... I'm happy for you.

AND I'm jealous.

So's Hold (nudge nudge).

We are both smiling at you through gritted teeth.

LOL!

(Actually, hold's probably not doing that. He's a better person than me that way. He's probably not even jealous! :-))
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 04:23 PM
Perhaps another woman could give me those reasons without requiring the extra income first. That doesn't mean Mrs. Hold can.

This is the saddest most heinous thing I have heard in a while. You know HOLD< your wife would not give you what you need EVEN IF YOU HAD MORE MONEY OR MADE MORE MONEY AND GAVE HER A CARTE BLANCH CREDIT CARD WITH NO LIMITS!

She would just continue her spending addictions which she likes so much and forget about what you need...as she is doing now to a smaller scale.

MORE MONEY WOULD NOT HELP YOUR MARRIAGE IF YOUR WIFE IS FUNDAMENTALY SELFISH!!!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 04:24 PM
Telly I have explained 100 times how you can get a good sex life going in your marriage. But you will not make the attempt.

I am sorry your husband is such a butt. He would be a tough nut to crack though you could do it. You could get past your insecurities and lead you two back to a good sex life. I would start with some of his teaching materials on sex.


What he teaches about sex in his classes, he should read and apply at home. Unless what he teaches is HAVE NO SEX IF YOU CAN HELP IT, EVEN IN MARRIAGE AND EVEN IF YOUR WIFE WANTS TO MAKE LOVE< DONT DO IT!
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 04:58 PM
HOLD: I so wish that your wife would come talk to some of us here.

MUD: Awesome news, so great that things are turning around for you. I hope some day they turn around for HOLD too, I still believe they can.

I have a question if you don't mind HOLD

Do you guys find that when you are stressed you have want more sf or less????

My h all of a sudden dropped of the radar the past couple weeks, an unusual drop. Not even a hint of wanting it and he has had the less amount of stress in a long time. Yes I can approach him however that almost always ends in him being unable to. He is healthy no issues there. He was on vacation for awhile during this.

So is this just something guys go through????
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 05:17 PM
Bubbles

I disagree. Mrs. Hold provided lots of sex when she wanted something from me. Marriage. She stopped providing sex when she got what she wanted. If I had more money, I would be more likely to leave. More likely to be able to find another woman who would provide the sex Mrs. Hold is unable to provide (and yes, I realize it would be a mistake to base another committed emotional relationship on the exchange of FS for SF, but the availability would nonethless be increased even if I were wise enough to seek a different kind of relationship - and not every sexual relationship needs to be a committed emotional one). I think if I had enough money to hide most of it beyond the reach of her divorce lawyer, she would make herself available.

Well, her body. Whether she would make her soul available is another story. I am not sure she would trust any man enough to let down those walls. Certainly, in my present state I am not trustworthy in that regard. I would like to think I was back when we got married. Hard to say.

Telly
I am not more gracious than you. I am very jealous that Mud's wife responded. Happy for him. But with a tinge. Not as bad a tinge as years ago, because I am more resigned to my situation never improving. But that is a depressive response, not wisdom or healthy acceptance.

BJS

Mrs. Hold did post here briefly years ago. She did not like the reception, and left soon after.

As for your husband, every person is different. Some react to stress by wanting less sex. Some want more. Some eat more. Some eat less. Some people throw themselves into feverish activity to distract themselves from the stress. Some curl into a ball and withdraw from life.

If your H generally uses sex to cope with high stress, he might want less sex when he is relaxed. Or perhaps the ED bothers him more than you imagine. So when he is alone with you on vacation, and knows you expect (wish?) sex to happen, the anxiety makes it even more difficult for him to perform. Would he tell you if you asked?
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 05:45 PM
Quote
BJS

Mrs. Hold did post here briefly years ago. She did not like the reception, and left soon after.

As for your husband, every person is different. Some react to stress by wanting less sex. Some want more. Some eat more. Some eat less. Some people throw themselves into feverish activity to distract themselves from the stress. Some curl into a ball and withdraw from life.

If your H generally uses sex to cope with high stress, he might want less sex when he is relaxed. Or perhaps the ED bothers him more than you imagine. So when he is alone with you on vacation, and knows you expect (wish?) sex to happen, the anxiety makes it even more difficult for him to perform. Would he tell you if you asked?


HOLD:
Spouses are sooooo......sooooo......frustrating sometimes. Not that I would ever be frustrating to my spouse. grin

Maybe just maybe some day things will turn around for you. I'm not losing hope for you and your wife.

Thanks for the thought on my h. This actually is kind of unusual for him to go this long without initiating. prior to this his need had increased a bit and it was nice. Then all of us sudden it stopped and I don't think we have ever gone this long for no reason.

We have talked about the ED and like I said it occurs more when I initiate. Which just kills me cause it took me a long time to find my sexuality. So I try not to initiate it. He usually has no issues when he initiates.

I could ask again however I think I will get the IDK statement that he usually makes when we discuss us. Also I have kind of taken a hiatus of sorts on pulling our marriage.

UGH
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 06:17 PM
Hi mud, I'm happy for you too!!!

And hold, you can keep impersonating Eeyore if it's what your comfort zone is, but I see little glimmers of hope every now and then.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 06:24 PM
(me too, but shhh...don't tell)
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 07:07 PM
Oh Hold,

I was trying to be funny.

Sorry if that wasn't helpful to you. I always feel better if I can laugh with someone about how sucky something is.

But I'm about as far away from Eeyore as you can get--and not everyone is like me.

R U OK today?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 07:20 PM
Hey Telly:

Just read your response on another thread and wanted to give you a hug too.

(((((Telly)))))

BTW, don't worry about high standards. That's the same as setting the bar high. As long as you are open and fair and honest about it (and it sounds as though you are), then it is probably fair.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 08:52 PM
and a hug for Hold, too!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/10 10:01 PM
I am fine. Had an interesting talk to Mrs. Hold on the drive in today (her car in shop so she drove me to work). Should lead to more interesting talks. Just too busy with work (unfortunately marketing and not billable to clients) to post today.

Thanks, as always, to all for the well wishes. And FYI, the boy with the brain tumor had it successfully removed. Of course, now he has a staph infection from being in the hospital so long. But God willing he will go home this coming weekend.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/25/10 01:14 PM
Mrs. Hold is a good person and deserves to be treated well.

So am I. I do too.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/25/10 02:02 PM
Oh, and she is down 50 pounds and about to cross the second to last "decade change" on her way to her goal. I told her we would take a family vacation if she gets to her goal (she had reached a plateau and I thought she needed a little extra motivation). Now she is well on her way and I am going to have to figure out how to pay for a family vacation! But that is a good problem to have. smile
Posted By: star*fish Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/25/10 02:06 PM
That's fantastic Hold! Go Ms H!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/25/10 02:29 PM
YAY!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/25/10 03:09 PM
Mrs. Hold is very conflicted about being complimented on her achievement. She says that when someone tells her how great she looks, she feels bad that she ever let herself get that heavy. And she fears she will gain it back.

I asked her if she wants me to stop complimenting her, so as to stop triggering the bad feelings and fear. She said "no, keep the compliments coming". A good lesson in meeting your spouse's needs even if it makes no sense why they feel how they feel or why they want what they are asking for. Just do it!

And I gotta say she looks GREAT in the costume she is wearing to the costume party Saturday night. Good thing I am not that interested in sex with her these days, or spending 4 hours staring at her would be torture!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 12:38 PM
Mrs. Hold may be enticing me out of withdrawal. She has been exceedingly pleasant the past few months. Even without access to a credit card. Hmmmm.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 12:41 PM
LOL Hold you give me hope!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 05:12 PM
Of course, just as things with Mrs. Hold turn up a little, things at work crash down. Eeyore back!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 05:20 PM
It feels safer to be Eeyore. You will always find a reason to be Eeyore unless you choose to think differently.

You don't need that electric shock therapy to choose to think differently, Hold.

All you have to tell yourself to day is "Well, at least I still have a job." And get back to work.

Anything you tell yourself that turns you into Eeyore is exactly that--you telling yourself something. You have to figure out how to change your script. You can do that by choosing different thoughts.

Have you ever tried meditation, or T'ai Ch'i or something? Anything that is about surrendering thoughts, and releasing their power?

You can live differently. You can. It's like this part time job I took (one that I had also done years ago). The place is filthy... Because despite all the "training video's", people really don't believe it can be clean. I know it can be clean almost all the time, because I worked somewhere for years where it was always clean.

You have never experienced life differently, so it's hard to lean into it. But it's an option for you, Hold. Eeyore CAN morph into Pooh bear. Or Piglet.

Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 05:46 PM
Hold,

Great news about your w. I still have much hope for you and your marriage.

Sometimes when we get movement in one area of our life another area seems to become the problem area. I'm hoping that you don't allow the difficulties with work to negate was is happening in your marriage.

My h used to say when things are going well at work they are not so good at home, when they are going good at home not so well at work. If that is true not not so sure why it has to be one way or the other.

Things will get better at work, however we can never replace relationships that can be lost when they don't have to be.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 05:47 PM
And I did take your advice and talked to h about the sf issue. He said it was because he sensed I was irritated to him even though I told him I wasn't. Could I carry some blame sure but it wasn't all me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 06:09 PM
Unfortunately, the work stuff involves 3rd parties and I sense I am going to be made the scapegoat. I am working to avoid that outcome. Just need to keep telling myself I can handle this.

BJS, good job talking to your h. Keep talking. This is not a once and done. It is a continuing process. Give him big kudos for opening up and tlaking to you. Even if you wish his answers were different, you enjoy hearing his answers. Right? So give him strokes for participating and then ask more questions. Get him in the habit of talking. Even if at first it is mostly him saying things you wish were different. The important thing is that he gets comfortable stating what he feels. Then you can work on helping him feel differentyl!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 06:14 PM
You CAN handle this.

I've been reading stuff by Cesar Milan (Dog Whisperer) and watching his show, because we were thinking of getting a dog.

The thing I took away with me, that has nothing to do with dogs, is important my energy is. I have the power to live in calm, peaceful, assertive state of mind. And I have the power to live in a meek, nervous, unsettled, unsteady state of mind.

I get to choose.

Lately, I'm choosing Calm Assertive. Because I can. ANd that's who I want to be--and who I can be.

Hold, you are fully capable of demonstrating that the error was not yours. You may have to do some work in order to accomplish that goal, but you can do it, and you will.

The power of positive thinking may sound trite, but if it's something you choose to accept at the deepest core of who you are, then it's powerful and real.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 07:12 PM
Sorry about the work stuff Hold. Hang in there and I hope it all works out for you. It's not fun when someone who didn't do it or that there has to be a scapegoat just to appease someone occurs. I have watched that happen recently and it wasn't fun. I hope that this does not occur to you.

Thanks for the encouragement. A couple weeks ago I had given up on my marriage and just decided to let it ride. I even stayed away from MB. And here I am trying again. Thanks for the reminders.

One of his problems is he gets upset with me for something, doesn't say anything and then builds resentment towards me. When he finally does tell me his perception of why I was or was not doing something was wrong. So all the resentment he felt was built on something false. Where if he had just come to me and said this is what's bothering me we could avoid all this stuff. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I hope the rest of the day brings much better things for your.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 08:36 PM
I've been trying to avoid MB lately, but for you, hold, I'll log on!

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold may be enticing me out of withdrawal. She has been exceedingly pleasant the past few months. Even without access to a credit card. Hmmmm.

I had a feeling this was starting to happen! I think you planted a seed back when you shared with her how you were feeling about your M. I bet she's taking inventory, and is realizing that she's reached her overdraft limit with you. I bet she's realizing that life with you is better than life without you, after all.

I'm sorry to hear that you have probs at work now though. But like someone said, often when one area of your life starts to get a little better, it makes room for you to start worrying about other areas.

Yes, you CAN handle this most recent problem. I'm sure you've handled worse. Hopefully it isn't anything catastrophic, but even if the worst happened (getting fired?) I'm sure you could handle that as well.

At least you have your health and your kids, right?

Ok, so if being Eeyore feels comfortable and safe, how about getting into the habit of grousing about something more innocuous (would that make it "ocuous"?) like the yanks falling to the canucks? Or being outbid on ebay? Or maybe how you were passed over for the Nobel Peace Prize *again*?

smile You *can* handle this!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 08:41 PM
bjs...great to have you back on MB again.

What are some of the things you can ask your H about his statement? Does it sound to you like your feelings are important to him? That he fears your disapproval, fears screwing up, doing bad or wrong? That he fears irritating others, making them annoyed, dislike him?

Not blaming either of you...just knowing more...asking and hearing more...which means resentment can't be built up, can't give him his false comfort zone (those of us living through rejection can often justify rejecting first)...

Do you see some of Hold in your H in some way? In yourself?

LA
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 09:57 PM
Sorry Jayne...being outbid on Ebay falls into my catastrophic category.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 10:11 PM
Jayne:

The wierd thing to me, given how bad I have been at accepting compliments, is the change I have noticed in her. She accepts my compliments now. She smiles and blushes rather than getting annoyed and telling me to be quiet. Perhaps going without them for a while, she now realizes how much she likes it when they are available. wink

Oh, and I have to thank a movie. The Dirty Truth. Mrs. Hold was watching with D13 yesterday. When I got home, they looked at me and said "here he is". I asked "who?" Mrs. Hold explained that Katherine Heigl's character had been listing all the qualities she was looking for in a man. Intelligent. Nice guy. Has a good job. Handsome but doesn't know it. D13 said "Dad, that is you!" Mrs. Hold smiled and allowed me to give her a hug.

Maybe God is giving me some peace at home to make up for the mess at work. I need to choose to be appreciative.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/01/10 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
The wierd thing to me, given how bad I have been at accepting compliments, is the change I have noticed in her. She accepts my compliments now. She smiles and blushes rather than getting annoyed and telling me to be quiet. Perhaps going without them for a while, she now realizes how much she likes it when they are available. wink

Or maybe before, she was embarrassed because she didn't think they could possibly be true, but now that she has lost some weight her self-esteem has improved, so she doesn't think you are just lying to her?

I know if I was feeling ugly and someone told me I was beautiful, I'd feel bad because I'd think they were just lying.

Quote
Oh, and I have to thank a movie. The Dirty Truth. Mrs. Hold was watching with D13 yesterday. When I got home, they looked at me and said "here he is". I asked "who?" Mrs. Hold explained that Katherine Heigl's character had been listing all the qualities she was looking for in a man. Intelligent. Nice guy. Has a good job. Handsome but doesn't know it. D13 said "Dad, that is you!" Mrs. Hold smiled and allowed me to give her a hug.

Coolsies!

One day, the title of this thread is gonna REALLY come true: You're gonna wake up and realize you and Mrs. Hold are on the same team.

Quote
Maybe God is giving me some peace at home to make up for the mess at work. I need to choose to be appreciative.

I double-dog dare you to name three things each day that you are thankful for.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 02:32 PM
This morning Mrs. Hold entered the bathroom as I was getting out of the shower. I said "woo hoo alert". She started getting undressed. So I said "see, I told you it was 'woo hoo' time. My woo hoo radar is infallible!" She smiled.

In the past, she would frown and complain about my immaturity if I gave her a "woo hoo" when she got naked. Now she seems to enjoy it.

LA is always telling me to allow for the possibility that Mrs. Hold might change. And to notice when she does. So today, I noticed. smile
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 02:50 PM
That's what you get for hanging in there.

�Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 03:19 PM
You love your wife's laugh...

and her smile...

and when she gets and loves your humor...

You love a lot of things about your wife.

Just as she does you.

As Retread said, you persist in your marriage...for your own reasons...recalled and recommitted to over and over again...and the key fact is...

you persist.

Which I think makes you irresistible to your wife.

smile

Thank you for sharing a woo hoo moment, Hold.

LA
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 04:01 PM
HI LA:

Thank you. I don't want to t/j Hold's thread so I will take your questions over to my other one if you don't mind responding there for me.

I do want to answer this one here though
Quote
Do you see some of Hold in your H in some way? In yourself?


The answer is yes. I actually see myself in both Hold's and TheMud's wife though not to the degree they have had difficulties. I did not understand the need for SF for a long time and when I finally got it, it is somewhat to late. My h has even made the statement "now I know how he feels." And in some ways maybe his difficulties with SF are my fault.

I think for Hold's wife as is being shown now that some of her SF and inability to accept compliments comes from how she feels about herself. I never believed my h compliments and still struggle with them sometimes. Because I never felt good about myself and I felt he was just saying it because he felt he had to. It is a very difficult hurdle to get over and there are some times when you fall back into the old thinking. I think it depends a lot on how we feel about ourselves is reflected in our SF.


Also Hold continues to come back and chew on things so to speak. So I don't think he is nearly as done with the marriage as he thinks he is. I have felt that way on and off and the more I feel that way the longer I stay there now. However I see him still wanting to make this work with his wife cause somewhere under the protection he has put up to protect himself he still loves his wife. However I think the pain from the constant rejection which he may feel is a rejection of himself became to painful to bear everyday and he had to tuck away those feelings and build up a wall to protect himself.

And now it looks like his wife is working on those bricks one brick at a time and Hold is responding. I don't think he is as done as he tries to tell himself.

And I could be way off.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
This morning Mrs. Hold entered the bathroom as I was getting out of the shower. I said "woo hoo alert". She started getting undressed. So I said "see, I told you it was 'woo hoo' time. My woo hoo radar is infallible!" She smiled.

In the past, she would frown and complain about my immaturity if I gave her a "woo hoo" when she got naked. Now she seems to enjoy it.

LA is always telling me to allow for the possibility that Mrs. Hold might change. And to notice when she does. So today, I noticed. smile

WAHOO MRS HOLD AND MR HOLD

I believe like the others that alot of what Mrs. Hold has been doing has been more of how she feels about herself. And it was actually her rejecting herself and her desirability than about rejecting you Hold.

Enjoy these wonderful steps she is taking towards you and there maybe some setbacks. Try not to take those personally or as a rejection of you.

I truly hope you give her a chance. Sometimes it takes a long while for us to wake up to this stuff. And we do tend to make it diffficult.

I truly hope this takes out some of the sting that is happening at work.

Not all is lost Hold, you and your wife have made my day.





Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by bjs
I believe like the others that alot of what Mrs. Hold has been doing has been more of how she feels about herself. And it was actually her rejecting herself and her desirability than about rejecting you Hold.

Nah. She turned down the compliments back before she gained weight.

More like what you said about not seeing them as sincere. Back when she was young, she got compliments and wolf whistles all day. So she disliked getting them from me. Because it made her feel like I was like just like all the other guys. Only after her for her body. Which wasn't totally wrong. I was (and am) after her for her body. The difference is, I am also after her for other things.

For a while she didn't get as many compliments on her looks. Especially after I stopped giving them. Now I think she appreciates the compliments more. Because she sees that I am sincere. That she is beautiful in my eyes no matter how she looks.

"You look hot" was always my way of saying "I love you". For a long tme, it wasn't a very effective way to communicate that message. But lately, she seems to feel loved when she hears it. Which is good news for both of us.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 05:55 PM
I remember not accepting compliments...it was passed down to me from my mother, who believed to reject compliments was to be modest.

It isn't, wasn't. Compliments is another person sharing their stuff with you...it's about them. So rejecting them rejects the person.

Huge thing to stop doing that...to accept, receive...doesn't mean you believe what they do, see what they do...means you accept someone else.

Another part of the persistent rejection you lived in, Hold. You weren't crazy. And she was rejecting herself and it hurt you.

And now she's stopping that. Carefully, slowly, truly.

Maybe you could do more woo hoo alerts...when you come home and she's made dinner...when you see her enter a room (dressed, even)...when she smiles at something you just said...or when she touches your shoulder or hugs you.

Even if you whisper it in her ear...then you could retrain your brain to love celebration of what is instead of rejection that was...

Slowly...over time.

And for the MB board...woo hoo!

smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/02/10 11:14 PM
Yes, I can woo hoo when she does a good job parenting or saving money or helping in the community. It doesn't just have to be about naked boobies! Not that I don't compliment her about her mind and heart and personality. But adding a woo hoo might help as well.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/08/10 04:11 PM
Had a nice trip for business. Got home after 4 days away. Mrs. Hold was very pleasant. No sex, but this morning we had a long hug. I couldn't remember when we last had such a long hug. I told her that. And that I liked it. She said it is easier for her to hug now that she isn't so heavy.

D13 wanted to clean out her closets. We will donate the decent stuff to charity. Mrs. Hold went "shopping" among D13's discards. Good feeling for Mrs. Hold to be able to fit into some of D13's stuff. Not sure it is so great for D13, but we will continue to deal with issues of diet, nutrition, exercise and health with her as well.

S15 starts lacrosse today. Should be interesting to see how quickly he picks it up.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/08/10 07:19 PM
LAX is great, Hold. For me, I'm glad winter swim season is over. Much less driving involved with LAX!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/09/10 02:33 PM
Had a nice evening and morning. I put foaming cleanser into Mrs. Hold's ears to clean out the waxy buildup. If this doesn't work, I guess we got with floor cleaner next!

I always like it when we can do personal hygiene items together. I know, TMI and wierd. But I feel it is very intimate.

Plus, she let me take off her sweaty socks after the gym today. Some of you may remember the sweaty socks thread from a few years ago. Guess I have a fetish!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/09/10 03:17 PM
I'm impressed. I can barely stand to wash my husband's sweaty socks. And the teenage boy does his own laundry now. Can't go there, at all. YUCK. And TRIPLE YUCK to his bathroom. Thank GAWD he has his own. I make him clean it, too.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/09/10 03:34 PM
If you are a very physical person, then doing physical things together feels great... The more intimate the better...

I get it, and I'm truly happy things are going well, Hold!!!

Don't panic if there is a setback.

BTW, how are things at work, you had hit a crisis a short while ago? someone trying to blame you for something...?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/09/10 05:01 PM
Work problem is still there. Hoping to make it go away quickly and easily. But not optimistic. I know. You are shocked.

Keep telling myself this too shall pass.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 03:14 PM
I complimented Mrs. Hold on her weight loss this monring. She frowned. So I added "but your brain and heart are still big". She said "good catch". I called her later. Told her that it was difficult for me to refrain from complimenting her on her body. I know she doesn't like compliments on her body. So I will restrain myself. But restraining myself motivates me to withdraw. It is hard to be with her and stifle myself.

She says she gets many compliments on her weight loss and she doesn't accept the compliments well from anyone. It is not just mine that make her uncomfortable. I said I understood. And don't take it personally. But it is probably harder for me to refrain than for others. Since her attractiveness fills a huge emotional need for me and fills me with joy and it is hard for me to refrain from sharing that joy with her.

I told her that I would try to find a happy medium between withdrawing and staying engaged and complimenting her sometimes but not too much. And that I needed her help in determining how much was too much.

She said I was digging myself a hole and spiraling down. I said "this is no hole, this is where I live." I hate Radical Honesty.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 03:44 PM
Hi Hold,

I wonder if there are different ways to compliment her that won't feel so much about the weight.

Because whenever I lose weight, I HATE people to make a big deal out of it. I mean, I want you to like me/love me for me--and i hate that the world is so obsessed with looks!!!

Er, ahem.

Anyway, it's obvious she likes some of the stuff... the catcalls, the affirmations about what you like about her body, etc.

I"m sure those are all things you used to do, but stopped doing when she rejected them for so long. KEEP DOING THOSE THINGS.

Just don't compliment her on the weight loss if you can avoid it.

Lavish compliments on her body "I love the color of your skin." "Have I ever told you how much I like [insert a,b,c]". "You are so beautiful." "I love looking at you." Etc.

None of those things feel like they are tied to the weight loss, per se.

And if she says "Oh, that's just because I'm thin." You can say (truthfully) "That's not true. I've always loved your body. The difference is, you let me tell you now."

Come out of the hole. Don't refrain, just do it in a way that feels good for both of you.

You can do it!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 03:45 PM
And if you ARE going to address teh weight thing, do it in the way that seems to work: "I'm really proud of you for setting a goal and sticking with it."

Or something like that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 04:21 PM
Telly:

Your advice is correct. I will try to follow it. I just don't think there IS a way that works for both of us. Either she feels smothered or objectified or I feel stifled. The only thing that seems to work is if I truly do not care how she looks. And I haven't figured out how to not care without withdrawing emotionally.

I know, my typical pessimistic and black / white thinking.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 06:18 PM
I'm sorry, Hold--I can't agree with you... Because I've SEEN you express appreciation for her body in ways she likes.

And even if you DO feel stifled, I strongly suspect her enthusiastic response means a lot to you.

You do care. you love her body. Tell her that. Just tell her "I love your body!" Don't tell her "I love your body now that you're thin!!!" Lol!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 06:59 PM
No no no. It is the love her body part she minds. She doesn't want to be loved for her body at all. Fat. Thin. Or anything in between. She wants to be loved for her brains and personality and heart. Not her body. Loving her for her body dredges up all sorts of sexual connotations she would prefer to ignore.

I do compliment her on her dedication to exercise. I give her kudos every time the alarm rings and she heads out the door to a workout.

The problem is when I see her naked or see her fitting in to clothes and think "wow you look great." I can't say it. I have to stifle. Or at least I can't find a happy medium where I say it sometimes so I feel I can express myself and refrain other times to avoid having it be too much for her.

I am tired of being told. Woah. Settle down. Enough already.

I know this is partly my fault. I don't do moderation well with her. If I can't say how I feel whenever I want, my instinct is to run away and withdraw and not deal with her at all. My weakness. I come across as a gangly teenager rather than as a mature man. I need to learn better self control. I wish I could find a way to not get so excited inside. I feel like a failure for being so immature. Triggers my shame. And again, make me want to run and hide.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 07:23 PM
Would you consider...

"I wish you would take my compliments as being about me, already. I want to share with you what I experience, not make it about you. When I saw you naked just now, I thought "wow, you look great" and then shamed myself into not sharing what I thought. Because I feel shamed by your usual reaction.

I want to break this shame chain. Will you help?"

You don't have to stifle...her self-shame becomes yours...in this anti-intimacy dance. Yet the very act of claiming your own opinion as yours, about you, IS intimate. When you share it with her as yours.

Some women (like me) were taught shame of their bodies and to transfer it to men who looked at their bodies, even their spouses. Because they degrade themselves (disowning humans are all body, spirit, heart and mind), they degrade others. Only seems to relieve the shame pain...

when it really doubles it.

You don't need to learn better shame-in-silence control, Hold...you've got that self-degradation down as an addictive substance...I'll be like Jayners and double-dog dare you to...

Tell her you love her complete being because you can't find a way to love yours...would she help?

When you're truly sick of the shame pain, you'll lay it down...and then you won't allow others to...and you'll thrive.

No more lies like "I have to stifle" to yourself.

"Woah" "Ouch"
"Settle down" "Ouch"
"Enough already" "Ouch"

When you know you're really heard, that you're sharing your experience to share yourself (not to GET her to feel/think/believe anything), then you won't feel the urge to do the extreme...moderation will be easy.

Each time you feel the urge to run away and withdraw, state it right then, even if you're interrupting..."I feel like running away right now and not dealing with you at all." Then you breathe. And stay present. Look at her...she's your real partner. When you let her.

Courage isn't for wimps. However, I think a lot of men were wimps when they taught their sons that avoid conflict and lying were the key ways to stay married and stay a man.

It's the opposite. When you lean on your partner at times, you are demonstrating they are strong, whole, wonderful partners, whom you cherish. When you treat them like glass, you degrade them...enable, pander and lie and manipulate them. Just as instructed.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 08:31 PM
Wow. OMG. To admit I feel ashamed. As a path out of shame. Wow.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/10/10 10:29 PM
What LA said.

Also, maybe you could come up with some ways to express your appreciation of her body/beauty that aren't as open to her perceiving them as "objectifying". Such as:

You smell great!

I love those earrings.

That color looks great on you.

Wow, are those new shoes?

Etc.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/11/10 03:33 AM
Hold, LA recommended to me Between Parent and Child by Hiam Ginott. A parenting book, but it has also helped me with my self talk and relating to grownups. The idea is, instead of telling your kid, "you did great on that test," to say, "I feel so good about how hard you worked. How did you feel about your test?" The idea is that instead of telling kids how to feel about themselves, objectifying them, making them extensions of ourselves, to change that dynamic to a dialogue. What do you think about trying something like this?

Okay, I'm feeling really awkward all of a sudden about hitting Submit here. I know retread was asked not to push another book, that this board is about the MB Concepts. If talking about these ideas I read in another book is offensive to anyone, I apologize in advance.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/11/10 02:17 PM
NED, that is exactly how I talk to my kids. Tell them how I feel. Then ask them how they feel.

I need to keep focusing on "I" statements with Mrs. Hold. Not "you look great". Instead "I am filled with joy when I look at you".
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/11/10 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Instead "I am filled with joy when I look at you".

Wow! Who wouldn't love to hear THAT! I love it!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/12/10 03:05 PM
Mrs. Hold doesn't love it. Makes her feel uncomfortable.

We had a chat this morning. Actually, we started last night while talking to D13. D13 said "Dad gets giddy when he is with you. And that is kinda wierd. But we love him anyway."

This morning we were kissing. She turned her head and I kissed her neck and she pushed me away. She said she just wanted to be playful and not to take it so seriously. I told her that was a valid point. But I need more guidance. I am not enthusiastic about doing trial and error with her to find her boundaries. It is not like there is a broad field of grass for us to play in. It is a maze and the walls are electric fences. I am not willing to stumble forward blindly and find the fences by touch. I need her to tell me where the boundaries are. Not as fun and playful. But for me the pain of running into the fences outweighs whatever fun we have before then.

She said we need more fun. I agreed. I said something like "I get giddy and joyous when I am with you. Until now I have been stifling that. And it is killing me. I am miserable every moment of every day. So I am going to stop stifling myself. I understand that may be uncomfortable for you. But if we can't find a way to work it out that works for both of us, then we'll have to do what needs to be done at that point."

She said something like "have I turned you down often lately?"

I said something like "you don't turn me down often, but I don't ask often. However, you do alot of pre-empting. As soon as I get home you say you are tired or don't feel well or have a headache. Then if I roll over toward you in bed you throw your arms up to ward me off. Or you clench up and pull into yourself. Even if I haven't touched you and was just shifting positions while reading a book. So you do alot of rejecting without saying no explicitly. She nodded her head in agreement. I went on "and on the other side, you almost never welcome me. I never hear anything like 'hey, I am in a good mood tonight, why don't you come closer and maybe you'll get lucky'."

She said that is a valid point. We shall see if anything comes from it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/12/10 07:36 PM
Wow, Hold...

Just wow.

Look what you did...you let her in on your secret.

And she didn't lash out at you, didn't negate you--she confirmed she does what you see as pre-empting...

she validated and acknowledged.

And you got some kissing in, too.

You know you wouldn't feel giddy around her at all if you were in Withdrawal...if she wasn't meeting any of your Top ENs...

Let her be uncomfortable when you share compliments in "I" statements. She's tough. She can handle it.

RESPECT her more. And she has consciously chosen to NOT turn you down as often...stayed aware of her obvious way of rejecting...and now, because you shined a light on it, her unspoken ways of pre-rejecting you.

How are you going to bring more fun? When you guys were first dating, was the fun stuff you two did?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/15/10 02:05 PM
No news. By circumstance we spent the weekend apart, and she had a yeast infection so no ability to be welcoming.

But I did my taxes, and S15 and I pruned one tree and trans-planted another tree in the rain (it rained all weekend). Fun playing in the mud.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/16/10 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold doesn't love it. Makes her feel uncomfortable.
oh. oops.
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I said something like "you don't turn me down often, but I don't ask often. However, you do alot of pre-empting. As soon as I get home you say you are tired or don't feel well or have a headache. Then if I roll over toward you in bed you throw your arms up to ward me off. Or you clench up and pull into yourself. Even if I haven't touched you and was just shifting positions while reading a book. So you do alot of rejecting without saying no explicitly. She nodded her head in agreement. I went on "and on the other side, you almost never welcome me. I never hear anything like 'hey, I am in a good mood tonight, why don't you come closer and maybe you'll get lucky'."

She said that is a valid point.

Wow, this is huge. Hold, I'm so happy for you (even if the weekend didn't pan out for her to be welcoming)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/16/10 08:30 PM
I have to keep my eyes on progress. Mrs. Hold provides many more hugs and kisses than she did before. Especially kisses. She hardly ever let me kiss her before. Now she leans in to kiss me!!!! Just light pecks but puckering up is much better than pulling away from me.

Of course the sex is still nothing like I would prefer, but that is only a piece of the puzzle. Compared to where we were 14 months ago (wife continuing to overspend, wife 70 pounds overweight, no hugs let alone kisses) we have made progress. Some might even say huge progress.

50 pounds lost. Better control over spending. More hugs. Life is good. Need to make sure I let her know that I have noticed.

And I have kept up the compliments on her brains, personality and big heart. When she walks by naked, I do not give her a woo hoo. Instead, I tell her that her full round ample heart is so distractingly impressive that I failed to even notice all these years that she has hooters. Who knew? I asked her to let me know if I went too far over the top. So far, no complaints.

Hmmm, as for the use of the term hooters. Last week Mrs. Hold shared with me and D13 that she was trying to think of plans for S15's birthday (it is not until November). She thought maybe she would take him and some friends to Hooters. She thought they would enjoy that and it would show everyone that she was the fun Mom. She worried if the other parents would be concerned about her taking a bunch of teenage boys to Hooters.

I said that in my view, hard to think of anything more likely to create permanent mental trauma in a teenage boy then going to Hooters with his Mom and his little sister who has started growing boobs (well, past started, she just graduated from a B to a C). D13 was appalled. D13 said she didn't want to think of Mrs. Hold's hooters, her own hooters, or S15 looking at hooters.

I wondered where the heck S15 and his friends are supposed to direct their eyes for an hour while sitting with Mrs. Hold and D13. What if one of the boys notices that Mrs. Hold and D13 have hooters too? shocked So for the past week we have been referring to breasts as hooters in our house.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/16/10 09:55 PM
Hold the Hooters bit was funny! Glad to see things are going better for you and Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 04:31 AM
OH!!! MY!!! GOSH!!!

Laughing out loud to myself! (LMAO)

The whole "full round ample heart so distactingly impressive" was HILARIOUS!!!

And the whole HOOTERS talk cracked me up!

Thank you so much for the great laugh!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 03:59 PM
Last night I told Mrs. Hold that I liked the way her nightie wrapped itself around her personality. She laughed.

Still, this morning I woke up depressed. I have been sleeping alot and gaining weight. Maybe time to get some AD meds.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 04:20 PM
Anyway you can go with MrsHold to work out in the mornings before work?

Btw, you can slip in "good chicken hooters, MrsHold" at dinner...

or when looking out in the yard, "Hey, there's a Robin Redhooter...Woot."

laugh

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 06:25 PM
Working out with Mrs. Hold doesn't work for me. There are some kinds of tasks we get along OK. We do not get along well when trying to accomplish a task, like home improvement. I am concerned that workouts would be more like home improvement than RC.

I could exercise while she is exercising. But not together.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 06:31 PM
Okay...you exercising at the same time, same place, but not together (same treadmill or equipment)?

smile

No laughter for my extended hooters suggestions?

You bum.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 06:51 PM
Not exercising same time same place. Exercising same time different place. I don't want to be in the same room. Triggers all the negative emotions that prevent us from doing home improvement projects together. I feel judged. Whatever I do is not the right way or not good enough. Maybe I could tolerate driving to and from the gym together as long as we work out in different rooms. But I think for now I would prefer to work out at home while she is at the gym.

And yes, your comments were very punny. Lighthearted pun is much appreciated here.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 10:10 PM
Working out is not home improvement.

You have your body and she has her own.

Home improvement is one home, two opinions.

However...I understand you mean you experience feeling judged, found lacking, not good enough.

I see this working out together as Mrs Hold getting an opportunity to lead the way...as you did before she joined the team...in fact, your working out, what, a year and half ago, precipitated her choice, didn't it? Or am I just rewriting your history?

Because partners inspire each other...and allowing her to take the lead a little, show you her regimen, sharing the parts she loves and the parts she struggles through...may just inspire you...allowing yourself to take inspiration...

which is a great way to replace your expectation of fear. You show up for the experience, and may have resulting feelings of closeness without judgment...feeling shared with...really a team of love...you don't know.

And working out is the easiest way to hear how much you judge yourself, tear yourself down, feel not enough from your own internal dialogue...which is honest and loving for yourself to do...

Often, we only hear our super sneaky internal tear downs when our partners, innocent of our harsh mental rhetoric, have some of it come out of their mouths...so we believe they are judging us, putting us down...not us.

And in my experience, when this happens, I don't hear that they are saying about themselves (not me), and that their rhetoric is similar to my own.

A bonding experience, exposing ourselves to our spouses. You can take it slowly. Just thought you recognizing your drooping emotions, you might want to change something up.

Charge something up.

However, she may not feel safe with you at her gym, either. Didn't know...just know sharing and asking are acts of love and intimacy...

Even when you don't feel safe...you can act, anyway.

You know that.

What did you trace your down feelings to, btw?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/17/10 10:26 PM
I frequently feel down. It doesn't take anything to trigger them. I would say it more accurate to say that my set point is to feel down and that it requires an event for me to perk up.

I do need to change. In many ways. Get back to working out. Just not with Mrs. Hold. I still do not feel safe with her. My issue. And I do not trust myself to handle it. Also my issue.

She seems very happy lately. I am fighting against feeling like a doormat again. I have to keep myself focused on the needs she is meeting. And on the work I have to do within myself. And on the time frame within which change can reasonably be expected to occur. And not focus on the one need she is not meeting.

This all goes back to my not foregiving her. Or myself. I am not happy that she is happy. I am not satisfied that she is meeting some of my needs. I am not satisfied that I have taken steps to improve my life.

I am self sabotaging. And I don't know how to stop. I watch myself doing it on a daily basis. I wake up every day and tell myself today is a new day and I can make different choices. And then I don't. I hate myself so much. And I don't know how to stop that either.

Same old same old. Since I got here in 2002. Since I started therapy in 1978. It is getting VERY tiresome. But still I refuse to change.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 04:03 AM
are you still doing the counselling?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 06:14 AM
Hey HOLD, go easy on yourself, I am mad at her too! Look at the number she did on your life. If you were more confident you would have dumped her and got the marriage annuled before she had the children.

Face it, she stole from you ...your money...and your life.

I am glad she is getting thinner and is less miserable a person. At least she will be easier to live with. But your wounds run very deep and it will take a lot of scarring over (her not abusing you) and then the scars healing.

You should be feeling better about her in about three or four years.

What would speed up that healing, is if the "woman" came to you and told you she felt bad for stealing and blowing all the family nest egg you saved up....and that she was really sorry and was going to work full time for as long as it would take to pay that back!!!

HOLD< clearly she is NOT REALLY SORRY for all the money she stole, spent and lied about and SHE IS NOT REALLY SORRY for hurting you, abusing you and all but ruining or quelching (or destroying) your sex abilities, your sex drive, and your sexuality.

She should literally BE IN PRISON for doing those things to you and she did them for YEARS to you. Who could like her after all that? Losing 50 lbs is not going to help the resentment you stuffed for 15 years and became depressed over.

What may help is for you to slowly bring up that stuff to her. As you did that sexual rejection issue ...you did real good there!

If she is any kind of changed human being at all (from the efforts of eating healthy and working out) then she will respond.

I can guarantee it if you do bring up these things and she does respond in a way that proves how remorseful she is and if she makes amends in a way that is hard for her to do....

Then, you will feel a lot better not having that burdon between you causing resentment.

I look at her as a common criminal who ruins everyone's life around her and then...laughing and smiling..... skates free from prison not having to do any hard or easy time and not having to atone for what she did or make up for it or "pay the money back".

What kind of woman does this? She should be working her butt off paying that money back to show you she is remorseful and that she cares about you. Instead, she takes the easy way and keeps on using you again and again.

I really dislike human beings like that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 01:15 PM
lil
No, stopped several years ago. Probably should go back.

baba
I don't think she is a bad person. Just wounded. Like me. I think the movie Bliss pretty much describes our marriage. I told her I thought we should watch it together.

This morning she puckered up as I was getting ready to leave for work. I said "hmmm, have you treated me well enough this morning to deserve a kiss?" I pondered for a few seconds. She said "I guess not." I moved closer. She puckered up. I hung an inch or so away from her face. She leaned in and gave me a peck. She looked at me. I said "we have moved into the you have to lean toward me phase of our marriage." Then I walked out the door.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 05:55 PM
HOLD, your wife wounded? I think not. She did not have an abusive childhood, she pretends she has been date raped but I even doubt that.

Nothing could make her the selfish woman, who is thieving money, and make her character bad like it is now.

She has CHOSEN to use you for money so she does not have to work. She has CHOSEN to withold sex from you and abuse you nearly every day. These are things she has CHOSEN for her life.

i could see it a little if she has had an abuse filled childhood. But even those damaged in childhood...people (even me) can choose to be a good person and a loving wife.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 06:19 PM
LA
I realize the reason I refuse to work out with Mrs. Hold is my shame. And my lack of trust that she will react well if I share my true self with her. Those are within me. I am still not ready to share the "real me" with her in all areas. Working out is too closely tied to sex for me to open myself in that area.

baba
Yes, I am sure that my being a "nice guy" caused her to choose me. Not with the intention to "use" me. Rather because she felt safe with me. When in reality that was the farthest from the truth. I have put intense psychological pressure on her to perform sexually, by conditioning my happiness in life on her sexual availability. I was just less urgent in making my demands. If I had been more overtly "pushy" earlier on, instead of being accommodating on the outside but seething on the inside, then she probably would not have chosen me. Because she would have felt threatened and insecure. Which would have been a more accurate reflection of my true position.

She made the mistake of paying attention to my behavior instead of my words - in most cases the wise choice. But in this case, I behaved as if I were much more willing to tolerate her lack of sexual availability than I actually was. I was just too wimpy to insist on what I wanted. Yes, she could have been more accommodating when became more insistent. But I believe her failure to do so was, at least initially, more about fear and pain than about any desire to take advantage of me. Although at this point she may feel she has no choice but to maintain the status quo regardless of its impact on me, given the passage of time, children, finances, etc.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 06:25 PM
Hold,

I understand. Maybe you can use my post to examine other areas where she can lead...like this morning, leaning into you phase.

Watch for what you cut out, off or don't allow. That's your job.

Question: By hating yourself, you're hating God's art work...doesn't that get in the way of your relationship to the artist?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Watch for what you cut out, off or don't allow. That's your job.

I know. I understand this all comes from my shame. But remember, I am quite willing to hide parts of myself if I judge that makes it more likely my marriage will continue, even if it also makes it likely that the marriage will continue to be unfulfilling.

Quote
Question: By hating yourself, you're hating God's art work...doesn't that get in the way of your relationship to the artist?

No, not at all. I figure God has plenty of justification for punishing me for all the bad choices I have made. I do not believe God created nothing bad or wrong or evil. I believe God created things that are flawed and weak and evil to serve as the landscape on which good people operate. So far, I have not made good choices, and I am reaping what I sow. I see nothing that disrespects God in that analysis.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 09:18 PM
HOLD, your wife has you "well whipped", and buffaloed.

Someday you will wake up and see that you deserve more. You will learn to care for yourself more.

She has trained you to feel bad about yourself. If you had a normal loving wife, she would support you, laugh with you, make love to you and not abuse you. You would feel better about yourself with a good wife.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 09:39 PM
I shouldn't need a wife to feel good about myself. I should feel good about myself by myself. I felt bad before I met her. Before we got married. She has made it worse. She has made it harder to overcome. But she is not the fundamental cause.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/18/10 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
No, not at all. I figure God has plenty of justification for punishing me for all the bad choices I have made. I do not believe God created nothing bad or wrong or evil. I believe God created things that are flawed and weak and evil to serve as the landscape on which good people operate. So far, I have not made good choices, and I am reaping what I sow. I see nothing that disrespects God in that analysis.

Are you saying you believe that God made some people good, some flawed, others weak, and some other evil? They serve as counterpoints, background for the good people he loves to operate?

Are you saying that if we act flawed, then we are flawed? If we act evil, we are evil? If we act good, then we are good? How do evil creations earn God's love? Do they reap what they sow, even if it's good?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 12:35 AM
I guess I am saying that God wishes I were strong and brave, and would make choices from integrity and values. But if I make choices out of fear and laziness, God won't prevent me from reaping what I sow. Regardless of whether I generally wish good or ill to others. Bad things happen to good people. More bad things happen to good people who don't have the guts to do the right thing.

Lets see if I start exercising, get back into therapy, and get serious about my career. Let alone do the tasks my temple hopes for me to do as social chair. I have opportunities. If I squander them, I have no one else (not even Mrs. Hold) to blame for my failures.

It is like someone else posted on another thread. Some people see a path from here to there and they are inspired to get going. Other people see a long path and despair of ever making the journey. When the flood waters rise, do you scramble to find a way to get to higher ground or break open the whiskey and drink yourself to oblivion? Different people make different choices. God does not always rescue those who choose not to help themselves.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 02:17 PM
Mrs. Hold made herself available today. I was unable to perform. Trying to see the glass as half full.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 07:00 PM
So frustrating. I know there are other things we could do together. But since Mrs. Hold is basically refuses to discuss anything, I have no idea what she likes, doesn't like, is willing to try, isn't willing to try. I get no feedback to manual or oral so I have no idea what works for her. Sometimes she lets me. Sometimes she turns down my offer. Even when she accepts I have no idea whether anything I do works for her. Which causes me to assume it does not. It doesn't take long when we are doing something else for her to push my head or hand away and give me the hand signal to "get busy". Now that we can't "get busy", it seems like there is no point to even getting started. I would like for sex to be more playful. But I don't know how to get there when my partner will not provide any feedback.

I know she enjoys the massages she gets at physical therapy much more than any massage I ever gave her. I offered to learn how to massage. Get some books or tapes and try them out on her. But she is not interested in participating.

Argh! I hate feeling so alone. I hate stumbling around in the dark with no guidance. Phuey!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 07:09 PM
Talk about this outside the bedroom. If she refused to talk about it at the kitchen table (no kids of course) or walks away, then tell her you are scheduling an appointment with a sex therapist. Have the name ready.

That usually makes them want to talk...if only to avoid the sex therapy!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 07:16 PM
If you are inexperianced, insecure, or clumsy in bed there may be nothing she likes FROM YOU. You have to put on an act for her in bed:

1. You are totally experianced with many woman
2. You are the stud women want
3. You are totally confident and try various things
4. You DEMAND a response from her with your hands
5. Your face, your hands, your body....ARE ALL TOTALLY CONFIDENT
6. What you do and how you touch her are utterly confident
7 You are the MAN, confident and secure
8. NOTHING she says or does has any effect on your wonderful bedroom confidence
9. You WILL be able to please her and have her begging for more. Tell her this. "You will beg for more after tonight, honey" even if she laughs it will get her mind going.


Besides basic knowledge of female anatomy you have to do and have the above attitudes. No woman wants a man who fumbles around or otherwise displays his bedroom insecurity. It is a real turn off. If you cannot be confident, try lightly restraining her hands or tying them. Then make love to her. That always puts YOU in the driver seat. You WILL do what you want with her! Women love that, maybe she would like it. Maybe not.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 07:21 PM
Here is something you can try at home while you are alone. Try making love with your hands....to a soft fruit.

1. Try it gently
2. Try it lovingly
3. Try it confidently, you WILL pleasure that fruit!
4. Try it roughly, you will force that fruit to enjoy1
5. Try it gently and teasingly
6. Try it with a cute technique, and then confidently and roughly
7. Vary the techniques and end with gently
8. Have your hands exude total confidence
9. Have that fruit begging for more
10. Tell that fruit it will be screaming your name!
11. Manipulate that fruit as if you have done it 1000 times before!
12. Show the fruit you know EXACTLY how to turn it on. (even if you dont)
13. Often a woman gets turned on by a man who acts AS IF he knows how to turn her on.
14. Pretend you are highly experianced in turning women, and fruit on.

Hands alone can show a lot of emotion when touching a partner in bed. You want that emotion to show CONFIDENCE, CARING, AND SKILL>
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 07:48 PM
Pretend the fruit "pushes your hand away" as if it does not like what you are doing. What is your response.

1. You can immediately try another techique
2. You can yell out, "Harder"? (you are asking, do you need it harder)
3. You can yell out, "softer? and keep going
4. "Slower? " (what you are really saying is do you need it slower...)

DO NOT EVER MAKE COMPLETE SENTENCES IN BED! ONLY ONE OR TWO ACTION WORDS. A COMPLETE SENTENCE IS A TURN OFF.

SEVERAL COMMUNICATIONS, some good some bad in bed when using touching:

1. Let me know what you want me to do.
2. Oh, you pushed my hand away... do you want it differently?, tell me what you want.
3. Do you want it harder of softer?
4 HARDER?
5. SOFTER?
6. TOO HARD?
7. No words, just change technique by her responses.(advanced sexuality 101)


Remember all of the above. NEVER break the FLOW of the touching/lovemaking. It should be one continuous motion from the beginning to the end (20 minutes or whatever) DO NOT QUIT TOUCHING THEM EVEN IF YOU SAY A FEW ACTION WORDS. You can back off on the touching or touch a different area, or something different or touch differently...but

DO NOT TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF THAT "TABLE"!!!! NO MATTER IF THEY TRY AND PUSH THEM AWAY. ( YOU CAN ALSO GRAB THIER HANDS gently AND PUT THEM WHERE YOU WANT THEM.) IF YOU STOP YOU WILL BLOW IT. YOU MUST CONTINUE AND CONTINUOUSLY CHANGE TECHNIQUES OR WHATEVER.....EVEN IF YOU SAY AN ACTION WORD OR TWO.

Now, which do you do in bed. Is it 1,2,or 3? Then I can tell you those are BAD. Only 4,5,6 and later 7 are good effective and will bring out the best in the other pwerson. My husband knows me so well he does #7 all the time. Of course I am good at responding with my body, etc. I give him clues by smiles, words like YES... etc.

This is how a confident lover brings out the sexuality in a damaged partner or a partner who does not know (yet) or is unable to express to you what makes them feel good.

YOU have to be firmly in the drivers seat. Forget intercourse, practice on pleasing each other without it. Once you get that down pat, the IC will come.

Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 08:26 PM
I'm so sorry to hear about your situation this morning. My heart goes out to both of you.

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I figure God has plenty of justification for punishing me for all the bad choices I have made. I do not believe God created nothing bad or wrong or evil. I believe God created things that are flawed and weak and evil to serve as the landscape on which good people operate. So far, I have not made good choices, and I am reaping what I sow. I see nothing that disrespects God in that analysis.

I had promised myself to stay away from posting for a few days, and after this I'm going back into lurk mode for the weekend. But this statement and your follow-ups really jumped out at me. Maybe it's because I've just finished reading the story of the Prodigal and the story of the woman caught in adultry. Read them if you get a chance, and notice that "the father" and Jesus do not condemn the "guilty" parties. The father welcomes back his wayward son no questions asked, no demands for changed behavior or atitude. And Jesus does not condemn the woman who was CAUGHT! Rather, he reminds the crowd that all of us are sinners. They thought they were "better than" because the sin appeard worse. Sin is sin, and we all have it. Comparing ourselves to make ourselves feel better is a lie.

If you or I were perfect, then what would we need God for?

"Shame" is a mask for "pride." It is false humility. Knowing that, or believeing it, doesn't make the shame go away, but puts it in perspective, at least for me.

I am sure with every fiber of my being that God isn't laying in wait to punish you for whatever you have or haven't done with your life. We do our best, even when it isn't "the" best, until we know better and can begin to do better. The worst "sin" I can think of is to refuse to let our God love us. He doesn't do it for our sake, or because we earn it or deserve it. He loves us because GOD IS LOVE. All that is required is that we love back, the best we can, even when our best sucks. Because even the loving of Mother Teresa "sucks" when compared to the love that God is capable of.

OK, down from the pulpit.

On a lighter note, I will never look at fruit the same way again!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 08:30 PM
Yes, I am only human but God allows us humans to try and help other human beings. God is a lot more lvoing than you think. HE does not delight in punishment (there is a verse that says just that)
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 08:31 PM
Fruit!!! LOL

But to practice on fruit is better than fumbling around in bed. !!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/19/10 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Forget intercourse, practice on pleasing each other without it. Once you get that down pat, the IC will come.

Good advice. And as it happens, I only do #7. She never responds to verbal questions so I long ago stopped asking.

When she pushes my hand away, how do you feel about my saying "not yet"?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/20/10 12:09 AM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/22/10 12:30 PM
Thank you Mark.

Nice weekend. Much time spent doing yardwork with S15. D13 did very well at her synchro meet, and was very pleased that S15 and I got up early to drive over and watch her. Any time her big brother pays attention to her stuff she is thrilled.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/25/10 09:13 PM
Have been very depressed this week. Mrs. Hold is trying not to add to my burdens. But it is obvious she does not find me very attractive when I am this way (not that I blame her, I am not attractive in this state). So she cannot help in ways that would be meaningful to me.

I feel very alone, despite receiving numerous hugs from D13 and despite S15 asking if I am coming to his team's pot luck dinner tonight. I figure when a teenage boy asks you to join them at an event, that is as close as you can expect them to come to saying they love you. And he seemed pleased that I attended a school event with him Tuesday night as well.

Are you guys sure I can't do ECT to reboot my brain?
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/25/10 09:26 PM
Oh Hold.

Why are you feeling depressed this week?

Can you make time to go in and get a massage or something? Something physical to release those endorphins that are so depleted?

(((((((Hold))))))))))
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/25/10 09:27 PM
Why are you feeling so alone? What WOULD help you feel better?

Do you have any time off left, and do you have good insurance? I would love to see you do an intensive out-patient therapy...Like in treatment all day, and out at night.

I'm so sorry you feel alone and unloved. You ARE loved, and you DO matter.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 12:26 PM
Hold,

How are you doing today?
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 12:41 PM
Hold, this may sound strange at first, but bear with me. I think you are brave. Yes, you are. Because you are not afraid to tell your truth. You say what you do and do not feel...and believe it or not, there are many other people out there who do or do not feel the same thing. When you have written that you do not think things will ever change and you are to afraid to try anymore, I thought, "Yeah, that's how I feel at times...heck, sometimes that's how I feel all the time." You seem to have thrown off the "mold" of the so-called mainstream. The word mainstream makes me laugh because I really don't think there IS a real mainstream, at least not the one most of us think of. I used to look like I fit that mainstream, back when my hair was long and the blond was natural and I wore a size 6 and I smiled all the time. That was then, and I don't relly know many people who actually live that way. And you aren't afraid to challenge that, that idea that EVERYTHING in the universe somehow will make sense if we sing kumbaya and make it make sense.

Yeah, I know that sounds depressing, but here's my point. One thing we talked about in the hospital was honesty - the real kind. That glossing over or stuffing down or saying "oh yeah, that makes sense" when it really doesn't will not help any recovery or coping; it will in fact do this opposite is true. It is the person who is honest enough to say, and keep saying for as long as they need to, "this sucks, and it has sucked so long I don't know how to care about it anymore," who is closer to real recovery. Because they are honest at the most gut level. And that is what you do. When someone says something that - in your world right now - sounds absolutely ludicrous or unattainable, you don't do the luri thing. You don't cave and say, "You're right. I'm just not thinking right." If you think it's ridiculous you hold firm. Someone will have to convince you. Yeah, it's stubborn, but at least you are who you are. I had forgotten how to do that.

So, I think the fact that you are willing to say you are afraid of certain things and that you don't care about certain things or that you don't understand or even buy certain things is brave. Because you are pushing for something real, not something pat. Pat sounds good and makes everyone hold hands and feel comfortable, but in the midst of agaonizing pain, pat is almost insulting.

So, anyway, good for you. If you keep saying exactly what is in your head, I think something has to come of it eventually.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 01:28 PM
Thanks for the words of support. No particular trigger for why I am depressed. I had a great weekend. Then woke up Monday powerfully depressed.

My love language is physical touch. When I am stressed or depressed, I want hugs.

Mrs. Hold is the opposite. When she is stressed, the last thing she wants is to be touched. Last night she bought some sports apparrel for S15 at the team dinner. He said he did not want it or need it. It is not returnable. Mrs. Hold felt bad she overspent (yay, she is finally on board that overspending is bad). I told her it was no big deal. I offered her a hug. She pushed me away. She said "that doesn't help me."

So while I intellectually know that this is partly about her and not 100% about me. I still feel lonely. Because she doesn't have any hugs to offer me.

I remember a long running discussion on another board. About yellow crayons. Along the lines of one spouse asking to borrow the other's yellow crayon. The second spouse responds "I don't have a yellow crayon." The first replies "but you have a box of 64 crayons in your hand, surely one of them is yellow?" Maybe. Maybe not. Sometimes your spouse just doesn't have a yellow crayon in their box. I don't think Mrs. Hold has "hug for spouse to empower him when he feels weak" inside her. She just doesn't.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 01:58 PM
Hold, have you seen Mr. W's posts on the POJA thread. About men's and women's houses and men's "nothing box". Maybe Mrs. Hold has a nothing box too? I don't know...I'm reaching here.

What struck me about your post was that Mrs. Hold gave you some valuable info but it depressed you. She was letting you know something about her needs. She felt bad because she overspent at the team dinner. If you'd felt badly, a hug would have made you feel better. But that's not what Mrs. Hold needed.

What do you think she would have needed and could you have given that to her, putting your own idea for what you needed on hold (no pun intended)?

I'm not sure I would have wanted a hug in that situation either. To me, a hug would have been equivalent of my husband "minimizing" me...like what he does when if he'd said "well the money's spent so there's nothing you can do about it."

Perhaps you could have validated that she felt badly about it and asked her if a hug would help?

ETA: I am TERRIBLE about validating my husband's feelings and I see the damage it does. So I'm sensitive to it. The fact that I could see that here means maybe something is getting through my thick head. Where's the pat-yourself-on-the-back emoticon when you need it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 02:29 PM
I know she doesn't want hugs when she is upset. I didn't expect her to accept the hug. What she wanted was to talk it through. Which I did.

I am not depressed because she refused the hug. I was already depressed. The story about the hugs was meant to illustrate that my wife doesn't want hugs for herself. Which helps explain why she is not able to offer me hugs when I need them. It is my attempt to convince myself that she is not rejecting me when she rejects my request for a hug. She is rejecting the hug.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 02:35 PM
Ok, I see what you are saying.

What does your wife say when you clearly state your need though? You obviously both have different love languages. You need hugs and there's nothing wrong with that and I also think there's nothing wrong with stating that (again) thoughtfully to Mrs. Hold in a calm moment...not at the moment you are desperately needing a hug!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 02:45 PM
She says it is very hard for her. And harder still when I am so withdrawn.

She doesn't find me attractive when I am depressed and needy. Understandable. That makes it even harder for her to offer a hug. I cannot imagine using POJA and brainstorming a way for her to be enthusiastic about giving me a hug when I need one. There aren't any circumstances under which she would be enthusiastic about giving me a hug because I am depressed.

She feels I am a weak person and should be able to overcome the depression on my own. She doesn't want me coming to her with my depression. And at this point, I no longer come to her in the hopes she will help me deal with it. I just notify her of the existence of the depression so she is aware of its presence.

I read what thinkin said on her thread today. That she feels it is possible for her to inspire someone else to love her without her having sex with them. That would not be possible with me. If she asked me to wait until we were married to have sex, I would decline to get married. Maybe that makes me a renter. But if Mrs. Hold says "come back to me when you have overcome the depression", I am much more likely to retreat into distraction (tv, video games, staring at the wall) than to overcome the depression in the hopes of connecting to Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/26/10 02:51 PM
"The story about the hugs was meant to illustrate that my wife doesn't want hugs for herself. Which helps explain why she is not able to offer me hugs when I need them."

This really struck me. Because this happens with H and I and used to happen even more. He doesn't purposely (I don't think) withhold sex/affection from me because he doesn't care about me. He just doesn't need it so he doesn't think about it. I don't purposely (I have at times) right now withhold housework from him because I don't care about him. I just don't like it and it isn't a big deal to me, so I don't always think about it - I forget that there are wet clothes in the washer or that I forgot to scrub that caked on casserole pan....again.

I can see where MB truly applied compensates for this because I don't think in terms of giving him what I would need, but what he would need. Unfortunately, that is a lot harder to really do than it seems for some of us learning-disabled ones like me. And I am impatient and "instant fix" by nature, so putting off my own needs while meeting his without seeing any "return" is not something I seem to be able to do for long. I am ashamed to say that, but it is what it is. It's funny, if I had overspent (which used to be a problem of mine), talking it through would have made me crazy. Cause I don't like to talk too much about blowing it smile But your wife sounds a little more like my DH - he really likes to process things fully. It's good for me to have him though because sometimes things NEED to be processed fully.

Depression sucks, so go to Hawaii. At least then it's a TROPICAL depression - ha! I made that up myself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/29/10 02:32 PM
Still massively depressed. Weekend was good time with the kids. Conversations with Mrs. Hold reinforce that, despite her having crayons of many beuatiful colors in her crayon box, she just doesn't have a yellow one.

That is only fair, as I don't have the blue crayon she yearns for in my crayon box either.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/29/10 02:52 PM
My husband doesn't have the yellow crayon either, Hold.

I love the way you write.

Even when it's sad.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/29/10 03:29 PM
Hold, any chance the two of you can use your yellow and her blue and be happy with green?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/29/10 05:29 PM
Theoretically? Yes. I could be far more successful at work. She would find my increased income attractive. She would provide more sex. I could afford more Viagra. Win - win.

Is that going to happen? No way.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 03:40 PM
How are you doing today, Hold?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 03:47 PM
I am relatively OK. Yesterday afternoon I managed to rouse myself. We had a religious event last night and another tonight with groups of people I enjoy. Helps get me out of my funk. So I was somewhat productive yesterday afternoon and this morning. Perhaps I am turning the corner on this particular descent.

Thanks so much for asking. I know there are people here who care about me. Even if they are at a loss for what to say that might help.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 03:52 PM
Hold, could you please look at the list below and maybe give them a number, between 1 and 10 (1 not intimate at all, 10 being totally intimate)?


Sexual Intimacy


Emotional Intimacy

Intellectual Intimacy
(Closeness in the world)

Aesthetic Intimacy
(Sharing experiences of beauty)

Creative Intimacy
(Sharing in acts of creating together)

Recreational Intimacy
(Relating in experiences of fun and play)

Work Intimacy
(The closeness of sharing common tasks)

Crisis Intimacy
(Closeness in coping with problems and pain)

Conflict Intimacy
(Facing and struggling with differences)

Commitment Intimacy
(Mutuality derived from common self-investment)

Spiritual Intimacy
(The we-ness in sharing ultimate concerns)

Communication Intimacy
(The source of all types of true intimacy)

Thank you,

LA
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 04:16 PM
Quote
I know there are people here who care about me. Even if they are at a loss for what to say that might help.

*nod*
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am relatively OK. Yesterday afternoon I managed to rouse myself. We had a religious event last night and another tonight with groups of people I enjoy. Helps get me out of my funk. So I was somewhat productive yesterday afternoon and this morning. Perhaps I am turning the corner on this particular descent.

Thanks so much for asking. I know there are people here who care about me. Even if they are at a loss for what to say that might help.

Where is your God? You're Jewish, right? (which reminds me of the tee-shirt: I'm not a Jew. I'm Jew-ish. Which I find hilarious given all the I'm-not-THAT-Catholic rhetoric I've heard...or said)

So...do you think that leaning into instead of away from God might help you today?

What are you going to do?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 05:55 PM
Are you are asking me to describe how important each of those is to me, or how well I feel Mrs. Hold and I relate in these areas? I guess I will provide both.

Sexual Intimacy
Importance 10, Implementation 1


Emotional Intimacy
Importance 8, Implementation 8

Intellectual Intimacy (Closeness in the world)
Importance 6, Implementation 7

Aesthetic Intimacy (Sharing experiences of beauty)
Importance 4, Implementation 4

Creative Intimacy (Sharing in acts of creating together)
Importance 4, Implementation 2
Well, except as involves our kids, which I would rate as
Importance 10 and Implementation 9.

Recreational Intimacy (Relating in experiences of fun and play)
Importance 5, Implementation 5

Work Intimacy (The closeness of sharing common tasks)
Importance 3, Implementation 1

Crisis Intimacy (Closeness in coping with problems and pain)
Importance 5, Implementation 2

Conflict Intimacy (Facing and struggling with differences)
Importance 8, Implementation 2

Commitment Intimacy (Mutuality derived from common self-investment)
Importance 7, Implementation 5

Spiritual Intimacy (The we-ness in sharing ultimate concerns)
Importance 5, Implementation 3

Communication Intimacy (The source of all types of true intimacy)
Importance 8, Implementation 1

Note that Communication implementation is where we are today, when we share very little. In the past I was much more open. I feel Mrs. Hold has never been very open, but in her defense I think she is as closed with herself and other people as she is with me.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 05:59 PM
Her openness has nothing at all to do with yours, hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 06:01 PM
Where is my God? Darned if I know. I got more involved with my synagogue over the past year. Go to services more often than I used to. But I still feel isolated. Every year during Kol Nidre (prayer asking to be released from insincere vows) I pray that God will help me get my head out of my hind quarters. Yet to occur.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 06:06 PM
Thank you, Hold.

I left out "rate how intimate you feel in each area with MrsHold today"...a big bunch to leave out. I know.

I'm spacey today.

Think you could rate what you remember while courting MrsHold, and then after marriage (in first five years), and now?

One number, your take, your POV.

LA
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 06:12 PM
Sometimes one must bring ones own prybar. I think if you can't bring your own, God will send reinforcements. *snaps gloves, readies for cranial-rectal inversion*

You know all this, though. That's what saddens me about you, hold. That you know what you do that is wrong, and you choose to do it anyway. That you choose it BECAUSE you know it is wrong, and you do it out of punishment.

I'm all about consequences.

I can't back punishments, not when doled out by laymen.

I can DO them, errantly, but support them intellectually or spiritually? No.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 06:19 PM
My internal ratings before, early and now?

Sexual Intimacy
7, 3, 1

Emotional Intimacy
8, 8, 8

Intellectual Intimacy
7, 7, 7

Aesthetic Intimacy
4, 4, 4

Creative Intimacy
3, 3, 2

Recreational Intimacy
8, 6, 1

Work Intimacy
3, 2, 1

Crisis Intimacy
2, 2, 1

Conflict Intimacy
5, 4, 2

Commitment Intimacy
9, 8, 5

Spiritual Intimacy
6, 5, 3

Communication Intimacy
8, 6, 1
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/30/10 07:54 PM
Recreational Intimacy (Companionship) can hit four or more of the intimacies by accident.

smile

I'm wondering if you would choose to ask MrsHold for 10 hours of UA a week...where you plan on you both seeing something new, doing something new, playing together?

Not to work on your marriage or to get SF or to fix that hole in you...just because you can.

And you can.

It's a choice...think up four things to do in one week together...anything from driving to an unseen neighborhood, parking and taking a walk together...to going to an archery range. Only thing--you aren't allowed for one second to talk yourself out of, talk yourself down, or criticize any part of the plan.

Not before, during or after.

And plan to go ahead and do the four things even if MrsHold says no...ask for her to offer up four things each week for you guys to do together.

Use the resentment to get back at her...in ways of getting back to her.

See if you can trick yourself into having an interesting Spring...because the video games will be there next winter. They wait for ya.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 02:57 AM
Hmmm. I am not interested in getting into fights over how much it costs to do the things she wants to do. And I can't tolerate the contact if it doesn't regularly (not always but frequently) lead to sex. We stopped doing recreation from 2 main points. It never ended in SF. And the things she wants to do cost too much. I would rather stay in misery than go back to when we used to have date nights. That was worse. Spending time with her makes me want sex more. Why the heck do you think I avoid her? Doing things with her "not to get SF" doesn't help me feel better. I end up feeling worse. I may be miserable playing video games by myself. But I am not as frantically dysfunctional as when we spend time together without having sex.

I guess it can't hurt to propose things that are free or nearly free. Then again, we are in synchro meet and AAU basketball season. Our weekends are spoken for until the end of June. Am I prepared to cut back on kid commitments to make time for my marriage? No way. But if we find some Saturday nights when we get back home early enough, maybe we can find some "concerts on the green" to go to without the kids. I predict Mrs. Hold will politely decline. But I will ask.

Just noticed you said 4 per WEEK! I first read that to be month. One per week. 4 things in one week? Not possible. We don't have 4 "slots". I generally don't get home until 8 or 9 at night. Closer to 10 when D13 has synchro practice until 9:30. So weeknights are out. We are lucky to have 1 or 2 slots per weekend max. And none when one or the other kid has an out of town meet or tournament.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 04:41 AM
And I can't tolerate the contact if it doesn't regularly (not always but frequently) lead to sex. We stopped doing recreation from 2 main points

HOLD, you are getting bolder and more assertive in expressing your feelings to MRS HOLD. I bet you can find a good way to tell her this too!

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 12:52 PM
Hold, at my house we were doing the one-income thing for 9 months, and I can tell you there's nothing more of a buzz kill to start brainstorming what we'd like to do, and come up with nothing, because everything was "too expensive." It felt like that power and control thing rearing it's ugly head again, yuck! When we shifted from that all-or-nothing thinking, and gave ourselves a reasonable amount to work with, even like $30, there were lots of things we came up with, and then when it was something free, it was a bonus, something we decided together, not something one was pushing on the other.

In the last year or so I've made a few friends similar to your wife, for whatever reason just don't buy into the "everyone's got to work" thing like the rest of us do. They complain that their Hs don't give them money for one thing or another, and to me the answer would be so obvious, that's what a job is for, so you have enough resources to go around. Or like, if they cooked dinner instead of getting take-out, there would be another $20/day easily. So sometimes we meet for coffee instead of lunch, or at one of our houses, or go for a walk at the park. We're still able to do fun stuff, and it doens't feel like we're doing it "on the cheap."
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 01:36 PM
Crazy, aren't I?

smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 02:16 PM
NED
I would be happy to give my wife a dollar amount to plan events. I am not optimistic that she will be enthusiastic about anything. But I am happy to offer her what little we have available. We have over $40,000 of credit card debt on top of a big mortgage so it truly isn't much.

She occassionally goes walking with a couple of her female friends at a nearby park. I have offered to walk with her on the weekends. She always turns me down. I can ask again. At this point I need the exercise more than she does.

As for the control issue, I realize the "daddy thing" kills romance. But if you ask me whether I would give up financial control to provide more opportunities for RC, no way. We are too deep in the hole. I don't trust myself to keep things manageable once I let go of the off switch.

LA
Not crazy. You are proposing exactly what Dr. Harley requires before he accepts new clients. A commitment to spend 15 hours per week of UA time. I am unwilling to invest that much time. So I don't expect my marriage to improve.

We tried spending more time together in the past. Did not improve our marriage. Just made me more frustrated, bitter and resentful. She was getting more of her needs met and my #1 need was neglected.

I know it is POSSIBLE that Mrs. Hold might react differently now. But I am not interested in testing that possibility at this time. When we get closer to the kids leaving, I expect I will feel differently about spending time with Mrs. Hold. Because at that point I won't mind becoming even more resentful. Because that might give me the motivation I need to leave.

As I have said many times before, staying together for the next 5 years is more important to me than my happiness or than trying to repair our marriage. I know I am the one here at MB. And we typically encourage the person here to "go first". I won't do that at this time. Maybe years from now. But for the moment, either she goes first or I play video games. Even if that pretty much assures that I will remain miserable. Because it also assures I will remain married.

Remember, when I joked Monday about "not getting it", Mrs. Hold started by saying that I am stuck with her forever. She apparently has no intention of leaving. That is how I want it to remain.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 07:32 PM
I understood you weren't interested due to fear. I got that. I was thinking about how you guys regularly have spiritual intimacy...and wondered how that might ripple into other intimacies. To me, it's the most intimate of all...doesn't mean it's that way for you guys.

The past is the past...there are tiny changes...what was may not happen again...you don't know. When was the last time you talked about her getting a part-time job to pay off her share of the debt?

I ask because I know her running the kids around takes a lot of time...didn't know if there were work-from-home things she could do, train for, or something local, 20-hours a week (like 8am to 12noon, M-F)?

She can find a way to bring in an income without costing more to work...she's intelligent, creative and when she sets her mind to it, she can do it. Your job is to state this and to ask...here's what I want most...

So that FS is worked on, and then my hope will be, SF will follow (my optimistic dyslexia speaking, of course).

Inches by inches, Hold. Not too much at once.

Also, I'm thinking your DS15 could be asked, also, to work at the nearest market for 10 hours a week...and I suggest this because my two oldest boys began work at 14 and 15 (got the underage work permit) and have greatly benefited from it...while my youngest, well, didn't. Your DS15's money would be his own to pay for his clothes, extras...which does reduce what you pay for him...and your DD can babysit.

If you and the two kids bring in income, then MrsHold may want to join that club...I can't tell you how different your children's work ethic evolves from this...let's them grow into their own consumer power, understand their limitations, influence. Super important, not perfect...yet without experiencing early, most likely they will struggle long and hard.

What kind of fiscal experience did MrsHold have growing up?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 08:25 PM
Both her parents worked. She was in day care when young. later a latchkey. Got into much trouble. Grounded often. She worked as a teenager to earn spending money. She promised herself at that time she would be home for her kids. And she intends to keep that promise to herself no matter how much it harms her, me or the kids. I understand. I live with many promises I made to myself to my own detriment. Like choosing to stay married "no matter what".

S15 is working as a CIT this summer. I have encouraged D13 to baby sit. Will push that again.

I think me pushing Mrs. Hold to work is counter productive. She will resist my suggestion even if it is in her interest to agree. I am not the only spiteful self-sabotaging person in this marriage. She feels that if I were more productive at my job, she wouldn't need to work, and she is not going to reward me for failure. Last night one of the women mentioned "if you want a job, tell everyone you know you are looking. That is the only way to get a job these days." Mrs. Hold said she needs to be home at 3:00 to watch the kids and drive them around. The woman replied "my job is a 25 hour per week job. I get paid for only half time, but it is what it is." I think her hearing it from 3rd parties is better than hearing it from me.

As you say, Mrs. Hold is very successful in whatever she attempts. I occassionally tell her "we should have done this the other way. You should have worked and I should have stayed home with the kids. You had the drive to succeed full time. I would have found a way to be productive part time. And I would have probably enjoyed the time with the kids when they were small more than you did." Needless to say, she is not amused.

Hmmm. You say we have lots of spiritual intimacy. Not sure it works the way you imagine. We do not share spiritual thoughts or feelings with one another. It is true we share the same religion. But she is basically non-practicing. For the big holidays she occassionally joins me. The "eating" ones at people's homes. Not the religious services at the temple. I go to those alone. Or with the kids. Or with another guy whose wife also generally refuses to attend. To the extent I feel we share spiritual intimacy, it is her support for the kids receiving a religious education. And her support for my being involved at the temple. She does not share my faith. She has serious questions about God's existence. So it is, unlike several other areas, not something that drives us apart. But it does not draw us together personally, either.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 09:23 PM
I wasn't asking you to push her...

Re-opening the dialogue in a new way...one which says, "I am so sorry for standing in the way of your amends. I've been resenting you from my belief that you don't want to repair the damage you did years ago to our marital debt, that you only want me to earn more. I am so sorry that in not speaking up, supporting you more to earn back, feel great about yourself, I wasn't loving you well. I know you can do both, keep your promise for no latch-key kids and bring in an income for our family. Also, I do realize that there is an amount you've already paid back from saving, not spending, which I hope you also count towards your amends."

Way too long and not nearly as funny as you, Hold. Nonetheless, owning your half is important to who you are...and your choices of what you believe and act from count as much as hers.

Not two dire opposites...an inch taken in real support of the marriage. Whether you feel like it or not.

I'm not saying that MrsHold doesn't self-sabotage, self-hate...because she does...and part of what you see is you in her...does it hurt you to know she hates herself, the wife you love?

Do you tell her you believe in her? (That's what I got from your occasional sharing with her in your post.)

Do say you, too, still seek the Lord, have lots of questions, cannot bring yourself to rely, let go (resentments, fears, reactivity)? Just your half...not to get her to think/believe anything...to know and be known.

Tiny bits...not asking you to leap into rejection...to share because that's your responsibility.

She does reward you for your failures...I read you often to see yourself as if failure were a place on earth where you lived...and she stays, listens, shares your life, anyway. She is the reward...

as are you.

Until you can see yourself as the gift God made you...you will not see her as one.

You don't know her today, right now. You choose not to...and she doesn't know you, right now, either. You do not allow her the opportunity.

Yes, I agree about third parties having clean slates where you do not with her. Doesn't mean you don't own your stuff, too. Not to get her to do anything...to inform.

To stay married "no matter what"...even if you discover you are tearing another human soul to pieces? Would you stay married? If you found yourself unfaithful, having a mistress of Resentment and Fear?

And if you share, ask...and she responds "I've told you enough that I won't"...respond truthfully, "I know what you said in the past. You're new today and I want to know you today."

I don't believe you could say that truthfully...I think you examine yourself new today and something cracks open a bit, a dawn breaks...and then you counsel it closed by seeing all that you didn't like in yourself before, there again. Not gone. Not cured. Still you.

She doesn't get in your spiritual way, nor walk alongside you on the path...do you think financially, you get in the way of her path, consequences, redemption, growth?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/31/10 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I'm not saying that MrsHold doesn't self-sabotage, self-hate...because she does...and part of what you see is you in her...does it hurt you to know she hates herself, the wife you love?

I tell Mrs. Hold that all the time. The parts of her mother she hates are the parts of herself she sees in her mother. Does it hurt me that Mrs. Hold hates herself? Hard to say. It did earlier in our marriage. Today?

Quote
Do you tell her you believe in her? (That's what I got from your occasional sharing with her in your post.)

Yes. As to her against the world. I believe it. And I tell her. As to her and her friends. I believe it. And I tell her. As to her with me. I don't believe it. And I doubt I have to tell her.

Quote
Do say you, too, still seek the Lord, have lots of questions, cannot bring yourself to rely, let go (resentments, fears, reactivity)? Just your half...not to get her to think/believe anything...to know and be known.

No. I tell her of course I believe in God. Because he sent her to me. Wow, that must hurt to hear. Just like when she tells me she finds me attractive. Makes me feel like puking. I wonder how she feels when she hears me tell her she is my gift from God.

Quote
She is the reward ... as are you.

I used to feel that way. Before we got married. Now I feel we are each the other's punishment.

Quote
Until you can see yourself as the gift God made you...you will not see her as one.

Correct. See me as a gift to her? Nah.

Quote
You don't know her today, right now. You choose not to...and she doesn't know you, right now, either. You do not allow her the opportunity.

Correct.

Quote
To stay married "no matter what"...even if you discover you are tearing another human soul to pieces? Would you stay married? If you found yourself unfaithful, having a mistress of Resentment and Fear?

Of course. I am tearing both our souls to pieces. As is she. Both knowingly. Both feeling we have no other choice. I can't say I know whether she feels she deserves this. I know I do.

Quote
I don't believe you could say that truthfully...I think you examine yourself new today and something cracks open a bit, a dawn breaks...and then you counsel it closed by seeing all that you didn't like in yourself before, there again. Not gone. Not cured. Still you.

I'm confused. Are you saying I don't want to know her, or myself? I definitely don't want to know me. I am ashamed of me. I want to run and hide form me. Hence the video games. To turn me off and tune me out.

Quote
She doesn't get in your spiritual way, nor walk alongside you on the path...do you think financially, you get in the way of her path, consequences, redemption, growth?

Hmmm. Do I shield her from the consequences of her actions? Yes, I guess I do. Then again, I won't take responsibility for mine. So it would be darn hypocritical of me to hold her accountable for hers.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/01/10 11:36 PM
I am such a drama queen and attention ho. I can't believe no one has commented on my "breeding technique" line in bronterose's thread. We are giving her good advice. But we could lighten up a little!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/02/10 12:34 AM
I didn't read it, but I always like when people comment on my "good lines" too... I mean, I can't believe more people haven't commented on my April Fool's thread!!

I think I'm so funny.

:-)

But I KNOW you are funny.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/02/10 02:08 PM
Had a nice talk with Mrs. Hold today. I made a joke about how skinny she is and how she is now so bony and there is no soft pillow to squeeze anymore. Her thighs are firm from all the spinning she does. She said "you wanted this." I said "I support you in this, I am proud of what you have accomplished, but you signed up for this yourself."

She said "yes, but you always said you wanted a beautiful wife." I replied "yes, and I have one, and you are right that I would not have married you if you had been heavy when we first met." She said "but now that you know me ...". More on that comment later.

I said "Now it is different. Your being thin is not an unadulterated good thing. First of all it gives you more opportunities to find another man." She made a face. I said "I don't think you are looking to cheat. I don't. Even though there are things about sex with someone else that would be emotionally easier for you. Even though the sex would be better than the sex we have. I still don't think you have any intention of cheating." She said that is true, she doesn't.

I continued "nevertheless, your being thin isn't an unadulterated good thing. It was back before we got married. I liked having a beautiful thin partner. But now our sex life is lousy. And you being thin makes you more tempting. And my being hot for you is no longer a good thing. So while I like you being thin. It is not only good. Because it makes me want you more. And that is not a good thing for me."

I left to get ready to shower. She was on her way out to go spinning. I stopped her and said "that part about now that I know you, did you mean now that I know you and realize how wonderful you are I would want you even if you were heavy?" She hesitated to reply. She said "you overanalyze". I said "I just wanted to say that if that is what you meant, that shows healthy self esteem, kudos to you for having good self esteem." She said "oh". And seemed pleased. Then she left.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/05/10 01:18 PM
Had another chat yesterday. Very depressing.

I told her i don't like being so separated. That I would like to be closer together. And that I withdraw out of sefl-protection. Since it hurts to spend alot of time with her.

Mrs. Hold said she is married to someone with a mental illness (me). And that it is hard for her to be with someone so depressed and down all the time. So she withdraws out of self-preservation. Same as I do.

She discussed how she wishes our house were nicer and our kithcen were redone. She said she wishes we could afford jewelry and vacations. That when we got married she expected I would be able to provide a higher standard of living by now. She said she doesn't complain often because "that would be mean, to keep tearing you down". She said she is happy with our life overall. But not the financial / material side.

She agreed our sex life is bad. She said something like "you think that is all because of one thing but it is several". She also said "you think your career and our finances are over but I think there is hope they could get better".

I of course pulled back from being fully honest. I did not want to crush her hope that our finances might some day improve. I know they won't. Because she is not working toward a better sex life. And I know that if our sex life never improves I will never be motivated to give my all to work.

I am torn. I want to tell her the bitter truth. That things will never improve. But I am afraid. That she will leave if I succeed in convincing her.

I am thinking about the following POJA. Every day I go to work and challenge myself "what is one thing I can do today that will improve my job performance". And she wakes up every day and challenges herself "what is one thing I can do today to be more in the mood to have sex with my husband". But I am afraid she will only have more contempt for me if I "remind" her how crucial our sex life is to my mental health and our financial future.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/05/10 04:00 PM
She made it very clear that she intentionally holds back on complaining about my financial shortcomings because that would be mean. I wonder what she is holding back on the sex front. Can't be worse than what I imagine. But I doubt I will be able to convince her of that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 01:10 PM
Well, curious how the world works. I sorta got my answer. Yesterday was her annual gyn exam. Pap smear. Doc says "hmmm, the swab is bloody. That always happens with you. You must have a vein right on the surface of your cervix. I bet you bleed when you have sex." Mrs. Hold replied "no, I married a nice Jewish man, not a porn star, so it is not an issue."

I explained to her that my physical limitations may affect what kind of sex we have, but we still need to work together to make sure sex is physically pleasurable for her. She did not commit to anything. I didn't expect her to.

But at least we got confirmation that my sense of inadequacy is not totally imaginary. Then again, if I were a more optimistic and self-confident person, I would look on this as an advantage. At least I don't make her bleed every time!

Also, last night we saw a commercial for the new Tina Fey / Steve Carrell movie. Tina's character says "I think we are going to get whacked off". He replies "I think we might get bumped off, but I doubt we will get whacked off". I asked her if she whacks off. She said no and blushed and curled her chin into her neck in her "I am embarrassed" body position. I said in a laughing tone of voice "maybe you should". I should have thanked her for sharing.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 02:01 PM
Oh Hold--seriously?

You think because you don't hit her cervix that you are inadequate?

That's nuts. The 8,000 nerve endings a woman has related to arousal are NOT in her cervix.

You know, I really would like to see you get some sort of intensive therapy help. You are SOOOOOO hard on yourself.

And for heaven's sake--her disinterst in sex has NOTHING to do with your performance/size/girth. I strongly suspect that there isn't much you wouldn't do for her, and there isn't any length you wouldn't go to satisfy her (no pun intended).

You are a catch Hold. I think if you started to believe that, it would be easy to be VERY angry, and perhaps it's safer just to feel sh*tty about yourself all the time.

Posted By: WolfDeca Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 02:08 PM
Cosign Telly!

And besides, speaking as a woman with very little real estate in that area, I often wish I could shorten my man by a head or two. If there's anything that can bring you crashing down to earth it's getting hit in the cervix.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by WolfDeca
Cosign Telly!

And besides, speaking as a woman with very little real estate in that area, I often wish I could shorten my man by a head or two. If there's anything that can bring you crashing down to earth it's getting hit in the cervix.

AMEN!!!

I think the "telling" part was the comment about marrying a "nice Jewish man, not a porn star." I have only dated one Jewish man before, and he was definitely the most sexually "kinky" guy I'd ever been involved with! Anyway, perhaps it's not your anatomy or the fact that you don't reach ther cervix that is the issue as much as it is your "style" which is probably a bit more reserved. And God kows you have reasons for that! I know that with my husband I tend to be VERY reserved, but I also know from past experience that with the right partner (or even at times with my husband if the right needs are bieng met) that Ican be very free and open with him.

Can't change anatomy. But can change our attitudes. Yes it would be awkward at first, but myabe a little male fantasy wouldn't be such a bad thing, at least to get the ball rolling.

Then again, I don't know squat about this stuff either. I struggle same as you smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 02:46 PM
Telly is correct. I would be willing to try whatever she would consent to. Some positions wouldn't work because of the physics, but I am more than willing to use tongue, fingers, toys, fruits, food items or props / costumes to enhance the experience. At this point, I'm just too gunshy having been shot down so often in the past.

If she wants me to be more aggressive or take charge, I am willing to do so. But not if it risks major rejection. I am happy to "surprise" her so long as she agrees that she will consent (assuming I stay within certain pre-arranged parameteres and we have a safe word as backup). But I am not interested in starting out by discovering her boundaries by trial and error. She has to tell me "anything within this area is basically OK." So far, there isn't anything, not even intercourse in the missionary position, where she is willing to give me pre-approval.

I have gotten some of those 101 Nights of Great Sex books. She wouldn't choose any entries for the gals. She wouldn't let me choose an entry. She basically rejected any attempt to "spice things up". Heck, she wouldn't do the hugging exercises when we went to a sex therapist. She wants me to do kinky stuff? If so, she hasn't done a very good job of communicating that desire.

I get that she wants a veto. But if she wants total control, she will have to do 100% of the initiating. And if she doesn't initiate, I will continue to resent her.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 02:47 PM
Absolutely what Telly, Wolfie and thinking said! I was thinking MrsH probably was saying that in a thankful way, not a complaining way. Or, before I got to her comment, I was thinking that may explain part of her aversion to sex.

I think it's a good thing that y'all are having more frank discussions about sex. (And I really liked your "kudos on self-esteem" comment to her a few days ago.)
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 03:08 PM
I hear what you're saying Hold. It's a rough cycle to be in, but you two seem like you're talking about it a lot more openly, and that is great.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 06:56 PM
Just had lunch with an old fraternity buddy. His wife drinks heavily and has gained 30+ pounds the past couple of years. She won't sleep with him either, and he is much better looking and much wealthier than me. So things could be worse.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 07:13 PM
a-HA!!!!!!! See, it ISN'T due to your horrible inadequacies!!!

Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 08:19 PM
I don't want this to sound bad, but after a long time and many questions to H, I have realized that his lack of interest in SF has nothing to do with me - not in the physical or "performance" sense. It really is him. It just isn't necessary to him. He could go without and not bat an eye. It has nothing to do with me being good enough or pretty enough or anything. Yes, I can possibly sway him in one direction or the other by meeting EN's and avoiding LB's. But I will never be able to MAKE SF be important to him. He may decide to meet my EN for SF enthusiastically because he wants to be the source of my happiness, but it won't be because he suddenly developed an innately high libido.

If your W is not wired to really really need SF, it may never be something she just thinks about a lot on her own. And I understand why you don't want to put yourself out there. But it might be the only way, at least for awhile.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 09:49 PM
Lurioosi:

I agree. She is never going to want SF as much as I used to. Maybe never as much as I do (although my drive is dropping precipitously). Normally I would not expect her to initiate. I want SF more than her, so I should be the one asking. That would be fine with me if she consented a "reasonable" portion. But when I get shot down repeatedly. And we don't have sex for months. Then it hurts to much for me to keep asking. I know it is not helpful to my marriage, but I would rather refrain from asking and resent her than ask frequently and keep getting shot down. If she expressd more willingness to consent, I would consider going back to being the one who initiates. But as I said, if she wants 100% control over when we have sex, then she nees to take 100% responsibility as well.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/06/10 10:47 PM
Hold, do you do the sex jokes on purpose? I get the feeling that I may be more reserved than most, but to me, knowing that Mrs. H has been gang-raped when she was young, didn't get counseling to cope, and has volunteered for years now at the rape crisis center, it would seem that you've gotta know on some level that those jokes, while they may be funny to others, would be in poor taste telling them to Mrs. Hold. How would you feel about asking her how it makes her feel when you share these jokes with her? I cringe whenever I read this stuff on your thread, like the "hooters" jokes around your daughter.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 04:57 AM
NED:

Will ask Mrs. Hold how she feels about the jokes. You may be correct. She may be touchier than she generally admits.

Told her about lunch with my buddy. Said I was happy in a wierd way to hear that he isn't having much sex. Told her I figured if he, who is better looking and richer than me, can't convince his wife to have sex with him, then I shouldn't feel so bad about not being able to get my wife to have sex with me. First she replied that he doesn't care as much as I do. I informed her that it is the #1 problem in their marriage and he is close to getting divorced over it. She said it is pathetic that I care so much about sex and that I feel good because he feels bad. I said many guys, including my buddy, care alot about sex. And that I don't feel good because he feels bad. I feel good because it can't be completely about my inadequacy if he, who is much less inadequate, also can't make it happen for himself.

I also talked about how my buddy is much more sensitive and less of a selfish jerk than I half expected him to be by this point. How he can't bring himself to pull the trigger on divorcing his wife despite the lack of sex and her weight gain and her heavy drinking. He has questions and doubts and fears. Hmmm, maybe that is why he and I get along?

Anyway, Mrs. Hold make it clear she thinks I am scum for continuing to care about sex. So maybe my sex jokes do bother her more than she communicates at the time. I'll ask her.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:06 AM
I wonder... do you think you joke about it because that's the "only" way you feel it is "safe" to mention sex? Like, using humor to mention something that otherwise would be left unsaid?

She seems to have made some improvements... in spite of her tonight thinking you are scum for wanting/needing sex. Do you think now would be a good time to point out to her (again) that SF is a very valid EN, especially for males? You could mention the hormones that are released that create the emotion of bonding for men, etc.

I'd be real tempted to point out to her the times that you have tried meeting her halfway, and she didn't budge, didn't honor her side.

Not to cause an argument or to dredge up the past, but to let her know *why* you feel the way you do. It seems like she *might* be starting to open up, a little, and it might help her to be reminded of all your attempts in the past. She may still have blinders on there, but maybe she's now at a point where she could start to see, if reminded.

Honestly, not as an argument. I know that I have sometimes started getting all wrapped up in myself, and drowning in self-pity, and it really does help to have someone point out another viewpoint.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 11:49 AM
Hold, I would think, instead of pointing out all the attempts in the past, it would make sense to point out that you're in a different marriage today, one where you two want to and enjoy sharing SF together in ways that are special and meaningful to both of you. I know in my self-talk, it's a lot easier/simpler to think of a clean slate starting fresh today than rethinking old scenarios when I had less tools.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 01:19 PM
I'm going to chime in here because I also find myself cringeing at times when I read Hold's posts. And maybe what I say won't be popular.

SF is different than 'sex'. I think Hold is referring to SF all the times he mentions sex and that to us at least, it seems that SF is a key component in looking for that connection/keeping that connection to his wife. Making him feel like a man because he is validated in his marriage. And so on.

But Hold...is that what Mrs. Hold is hearing? Or is she hearing that if she even tries to meet you partway, you are going to want sex for sex's sake morning, noon and night?

Is there a way to tell her that it's all tied into one big happy marriage bubble for you? Perhaps you have told her this but knowing her past, she might even be more inclined to separate the two in her head. Her comment about marrying a "nice Jewish guy" says a lot, if you think about it. The general consensus is that "nice Jewish guys" respect their wives and their families, are good providers, don't cheat and are not into kinky stuff. Maybe in her mind being a "NJG" went one step further and put you in a category of someone who would love her and protect her and not make her a sex object because she's had enough of that.

Not excusing Mrs Hold or saying you have to take a vow of celibacy. But somehow, if you were able to communicate to Mrs. Hold that she is NOT a sex object to you; she is your wife and you love her dearly. You love her so much, that making love with her (not "having sex") is a natural extension of your feelings.

Hearts and flowers stuff you know? And maybe in little 'drive-bys' rather than a whole heavy discussion.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 01:27 PM
Some of it is style and sense of humor.

Perhaps they are missing the mark with one another, but I wouldn't feel the same if it were me. I have a little bit of a jester side to me, and I would find Hold's jokes HILARIOUS--even considering the sexually inappropriate things that have happened in my life (fortunately not rape, though).

In any case, have never even considered that his wife might be troubled. I thought the Hooters thing was terribly funny.

Then again, I KNOW my sense of humor can be hard for my husband to take at times.

I can be quite irreverent. And I lOVE to laugh.

Good to check with his wife, for sure.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Maybe in her mind being a "NJG" went one step further and put you in a category of someone who would love her and protect her and not make her a sex object because she's had enough of that.

I think that is exactly what she thought. That I was "safe" and would not objectify her. She mistook my being polite (unassertive) as lack of interest. She though because I wasn't as pushy as other guys that I wasn't as interested as other guys. Obviously, she could not have been more wrong.

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But somehow, if you were able to communicate to Mrs. Hold that she is NOT a sex object to you; she is your wife and you love her dearly.

I could not communicate that honestly. She IS a sex object to me. I don't want to have sex with her merely because I have some kind of pure intellectually-based love for her. This is not ONLY about my desiring a merging of our souls. I am a hairy smelly horny guy like all the other hairy smelly horny guys and I think she has a hot bod and I want to have sweaty hot passionate physically-based sex with her. I also love her and want to build a shared life together. But I do in fact objectify her. She has a great butt and a great rack and a curvy hourglass figure and those were among the things that attracted me to her.

That is why we are not compatible. She thought she had found something in me that does not exist. She thought she found a guy who would never objectify her. I am NOT that guy. I do not want to be married to a woman who resents that I objectify her. I want to be with a woman who enjoys that her husband objectifies her. Maybe not 24 / 7 / 365. Maybe not in public. I can compromse on the time, place and manner in which my behavior manifests my desire for her. But I have lust in my heart. And I need my wife to be comfortable with being the object of my desire. And if my wife wishes that I didn't have any desire to focus on her, then we are not right for each other.

I believe my wife wishes I didn't lust at all. I don't believe there is room in her heart for a husband who objectifies her to even the smallest extent. And I am not going to pretend that I never do.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 03:16 PM
"Objectifying" really has a bad connotation to me. Are you sure it isn't more along the lines of, you appreciate your wife's physical characteristics and you wish she were comfortable in her sexuality and her sex appeal?

IMHO to objectify means you completely disregard their status as a person. KWIM?

You gave her kudos for exhibiting self-esteem. IMHO a person comfortable with being objectified would have pretty low self-esteem.

Whereas a person with healthy self-esteem could certainly be comfortable with flaunting her sexuality for her husband.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 03:46 PM
I guess I don't want to get caught up in trying to convince my wife that my sexual desire for her is somehow more pure or noble than the desire that other men have for her. Because I predict that will lead to endless arguments over whether my desire actually is as noble and pure as I assert. And will justify her refusing sex whenever my behavior falls short of the pure and noble ideal. In other words, I reject the assertion that my sexuality is only acceptable when it is pure and noble and motivated by love rather than lust. Sometimes being horny just means you are horny, and I don't want to be married to someone who asserts that I am never allowed to be horny.

Let us translate this into MB terms. It is possible that my wife interprets all of my lust-driven behaviors as AHs. Perhaps she doesn't want me to stare at her chest when she is lying down in a low cut nightie or stare at her butt when she bends over to put dishes into the dishwasher. I understand she gets to define what are AHs to her. And my job is to eliminate all LBs, including all AHs.

My despair comes from my prediction that there is no POJA "deal" under which I would be enthusiastic about spending lots of time with her meeting her needs for RC and Conversation and Admiration while eliminating all external evidence of my lust for her. At least, not with out the application of copious amounts of sex triggerd by frequent initiation on her part. That is, if she wants me to behave as if I don't care about sex or her body or her body parts, then she has to put me in a position where I am far more sexually satisfied than I have ever been while we have been married. Otherwise, it simply isn't worth it to me to exert the enormous effort required to curb my behavior while in her arousing presence. I would much prefer to simply avoid spending time with her.

That is why I say we are incompatible. For another guy, refraining from the AHs that bother her would require far less mental effort and willpower. And the amount of sexual attention required for him to put forth the effort would be lower as well. So he would be truly enthusastic about completely eliminating the objectification-based AHs she dislikes. WHile spending lots of time with her meeting her needs. I don't see myself ever being willing to spend more time with her while eliminating AHs without her providing a level of sexual involvement that she seems vehemently opposed to sharing.

To make it clear just how "far gone" I am, I will share something from my past. I had one serious girlfriend before Mrs. Hold where marriage was discussed. There were several things that caused me to refrain from proposing (including her infamous declaration "you are not allowed to buy yourself any new computer equipment until you buy me my engagement ring".) One thing is that she had a small chest. That was not "fatal" to my finding her attractive. But I must admit thinking it was relevant to my decision. I knew I would always view her breasts as "less than". And I worried that it wasn't fair to her for me to marry her knowing I would find that part of her "less than". Knowing I myself have body parts that are "less than". And I wouldn't want to be married to someone who viewed any part of my body as less than. Ironic, isn't it? Some would say I got what I deserved for having such judgmental thoughts. But I don't want to pretend that isn't inside me. I view my wife as having great breasts. And not merely because they are attached to her. They would be great breasts attached to anyone else.

I am sure my views will not endear me to everyone here. I understand that many (most?) women will find my views unappealing. That is OK. I am sure there are plenty of women for whom I am not the right guy. I am not sure if there are any women for whom I am the right guy. But I am darn sure that I am NOT the right guy for any woman who feels I shouldn't notice her body (or any particular part), or that I should only find her body (or some part) arousing because it is somehow mystically connected to her soul and personality, and not merely because I am hot for her bod (or that part).
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:02 PM
IMO, the reason you are unwilling to put forth effort in meeting her ENs is because she reneged on her commitments to meet your ENs, time and time again.

For you to put more time and effort into meeting her ENs while squelching your EN for SF (and that's what it is - it is neither more nor less pure than any other man's need for SF, and THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT) would be you doing an extended Plan A. Which is NOT advised.

You've done your "Plan A." She didn't reciprocate. You know the next step... and the risks are too great for you right now, you prefer to maintain the marriage while the kids are still at home.

So, I wonder if there are any other options, according to MB? I doubt the MB advice would be for you to keep meeting (or re-start your efforts in meeting) her ENs while denying your own.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
it would make sense to point out that you're in a different marriage today, one where you two want to and enjoy sharing SF together in ways that are special and meaningful to both of you.

In what way shape or form are we in such a "different marriage"? I was always in a marriage in which I wanted to share SF in ways that are meaningful to both of us. She is not and has never been in that marriage. She wants to be in a marriage in which sharing SF together is not meaningful to either of us. There is no shared "you two want". I want SF. She wants to be left alone. So I am leaving her alone.

Except that she only wants to be left alone sexually. Otherwise, she wants interaction. I want a package deal. Interaction and SF. So far, we are not anywhre near being in the same marriage. So I guess you are correct that we are in different marriages. But not in the way you suggested.

Hmmm, that came out harsher than I intended. I guess after all the years of MC and sex therapy, the idea that she is willing to share special and meaningful sex with me is very triggering. To date, after years of conversation, there are NO circumstances in which she has given any indication that she is interested in sharing special and meaningful sex. She says "I need more vacations". But we have gone on vacations, and we hardly ever have any sex. Literally. The number of vacations we have gone on "just the 2 of us" exceeds the total number of times we have had sex while on vacation. On a couple of vacations we had sex once. Most of the time we had sex not at all. So for the sports bettors among you, the "over / under" on how many times we will have sex while on vacation is 0.5. To me, that is pathetic. Just as pathetic as she views my desire for sex.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:22 PM
Quote
Except that she only wants to be left alone sexually. Otherwise, she wants interaction. I want a package deal. Interaction and SF.

And according to MB, you should strive for the package deal.

IOW it is not advised to continue meeting ENs without getting your own met.

IOW sacrifice, martyrdom, is NOT building a healthy marriage.

Letting your spouse know of your complaints IS.

Maybe your humor (which I love, BTW, it seems others are offended, so it just depends on your W's tastes) is your way of trying to broach the subject. Does it seem to be working? Does your W seem like she's hearing you, or does she seem offended? You've posted about some excellent times that you were O&H with her. I encourage you to keep that up. I encourage you to let her know that you've already tried doing your part, and you do not intend to be a martyr to meet her ENs.

YMMV.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:42 PM
Oh, and fwiw, over the years I have changed my view of breasts. As we age, smaller perkier breasts have their own advantages. I have come to view them as different, but all great. In my younger days I was more fixated on size. Perhaps in time I will learn to be less fixated on other things.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:54 PM
I remember trying to coax a student to do somethin in class. He was espcially skeptical of music, being a tough, cool 4th grader. But he had a good voice. He said, "Can I come play the drum set at lunch if I sing?" I said yes. So when the group sang a song, he sang. Then, when we started the next song, he sat with his arms folded. I walked up to him and said aftly (while the others were singing), "Why aren't you singing? We had a deal." He said, "I did sing." I said, "One more song, and I'll have you come and play the drums." No, you won't, Mrs. Luri." "Why do you say that?" "My mom always says just one more thing, but she never does what she says she'll do."

That what I thought of reading one of your earlier posts, hold. And I totally get it. When you have been told - essentially - just once more and I'll do..... and then once more never ends, and the other end of the deal never comes.....It's disheartening. And hearing that you need to do it longer or better or more sincerely is infuriating. Because you already know what will happen...nothing.

I know you have read the When to Call It Quits articles, and I know you want to stay until your kids are grown. It's like a catch 22. I am sorry you are in this position.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 05:59 PM
Please, hold.

There is nothing (NOTHING) wrong with lusting after your wife. there is nothing wrong with loving her physical attributes and being attracted to her simply on the basis of her body.

You ALSO love her (and would love her BETTER if she let you "play with the toys, so to speak) for many other reasons.

As long as a man's desire isn't directed outside the marriage, but he keeps ti reserved for his wife's body, what on earth would be the matter with that?

The ONLY problem is taht you and she are not matched in this way.

She does not enjoy your appreciation and desire for her body--and didn't even enjoy your desire when her body was not the one she had when you first fell in love.

She's not bad, but neither are you!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 06:00 PM
Dr. harley has Physical Attractiveness as an important EN.

Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 06:24 PM
What Telly said.

I'm not sure why you think your EN for SF isn't "pure". It doesn't *have* to be based on... um... you seeing unicorns and rainbows when you think of your W? It can *totally* be a man-thing. It can *totally* be the physical-ness.

Lessee... here's a f'rinstance (although my H *hates* my analogies; maybe this will help, maybe not):

I seem to have a need for someone to take care of paperwork for me. File taxes, pay bills, etc. I wouldn't call it an *E*N, since I don't exactly think it makes me fall in love... it is definitely a *need* though, in the sense that it is good to stay out of jail.

We could hire a personal accountant to do those things, and I could refrain from falling in love with the accountant.

So I can totally appreciate that my H takes care of that paperwork. My appreciation of him doing that isn't all unicorns-and-rainbows, it is more practical. So, in a sense, it isn't "pure" the same way you are claiming your lust for your wife's bodacious bod isn't "pure".

Still, I don't think my benefitting from my H's awesome organizational skills is my "using" him or "objectifying" him.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 06:52 PM
I used the word "pure" in relation to OH's post about explaining to my wife that my desire for sex is not about objectifying her and is wrapped up in my overall love for her. That I should be use more "hearts and flowers" images in describing my feelings. That is what I mean by the concept of "pure" sexual desire. That it is all part of emotional love. And not wrapped up in body parts and physical sensations.

I could not honestly describe my desire that way. It is partly about romantic love. But it is also partly about body parts and friction and physical sensations and my ego in bringing her pleasure and getting her to consent and all sorts of feelings and emotions that are not about my emotional love for her. I reject the idea (not saying OH feels this way) that lust for my wife is only acceptable if it arises totally and completely out of love. I am not going to try and convince my wife that I only have such "pure" thoughts. Nor am I willing to train myself not to have them (if that is even possible). Even if continuing to have them destroys my marriage.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/07/10 11:29 PM
Had dinner with Mrs. Hold and S15. Back at the office. I said it hurt to hear her call me pathetic. She said "I didn't say YOU were pathetic, I said it was pathetic that you feel better because your friend isn't getting any sex." I said "I'm not happy he is suffering, it just is easier to do without knowing that even he can't make it happen. It makes me feel less of a loser." She said "you keep telling me you are a loser. I never thought you were a loser. But you are starting to convince me. Maybe I am married to a loser."

I think we may be nearing a crisis point. Probably long overdue. Maybe it is not best for me or the kids to keep up this charade.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/08/10 04:32 AM
She probably wants you to stop saying you are a loser.

She probably doesn't want to have to convince you that you are not a loser.

STOP SAYING YOU ARE A LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/08/10 02:28 PM
OK, I will stop saying it. Clearly it is de-motivating to her (as it would be to many people). And you are correct, of course she doesn't want to have to convince me I'm not a loser - because that would require her to have sex with me. Which she knows darn well. So I will stop saying I am a loser. But unless and until we have more sex (extremely unlikely to occur), then I will still FEEL like a loser.

If that is the case, I am not sure that my refraining from saying it makes much difference. Except to make it easier for her to live in denial. Which promotes my goal of staying married for 5 more years. Hence my motivation to stop saying it out loud.

Then again, if I am determined to measure my self worth as a person by my partner's willingness to have sex with me (and I am), and I am married to someone who has little or no willingness to do so, then maybe I should question yet again my goal of staying married to that person.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/08/10 02:59 PM
You should question a lot of things, Hold.

It is much easier to hate yourself and stay mired down in the muck of what a loser you are... to be dark and depressed... than it is to untangle the mess and deal with the anger than is most likely seething within you.

Some part of you, deep down inside, (in places "you don't talk about at parties"), some little tiny part KNOWS that you do not deserve to be treated like sh*t. By your family, by your wife, by people at work, by ANYONE.

But if you listen to that part, if you choose to live differently, than your feelings become scary.

They aren't scary now. They are dark and dismal and hard, and wearying, and FAMILIAR.

Anger is scary. Terrifying in fact, if you have never gotten to the other side of it.

So much easier to hate yourself for your wife's rejection, then to deal with your life.

But here's the secret that you don't know, because you've never known it to be much different:

It CAN be different. YOU can be different, without a lobotomy, and without ECT.

If you aren't willing to do intensive therapy, would you be willing to see a LIFE COACH? Someone who will work with you on taking some ACTION with your life? Versus just rehashing all the problems that you have and leaving you there?

I'm sorry I'm mad about this today. I just feel like you're a kid sitting at a picnic. The sun is shining and flowers are growing, and you're wrapped up in a big, dark, itchy blanket, and you keep making a cave out of it. You're saying "I'd be happy if someone would just come in here with me and touch me". But even when someone DOES touch you, you only take the cover off the top of your head for a few minutes. You refuse to come out and cast the blanket off and really play. Then, on the very rare occasions when you have played, you carry the blanket with you, and it makes you hot and sweaty, and sometimes you trip over it because it's so long and awkward and heavy.

No one can pull it off you, you are holding on to it for dear life. Usually you just sit in it hating yourself, thinking mean things, longing to be rescued.

From one blanket dweller to another... GET UP, GET OUT, and GET BUSY PLAYING IN THE SUNSHINE.

You only have one ONE life, my friend. Make the most of it! Find ways to make the most of it.

(Would you consider a life coach?)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/08/10 07:41 PM
Great analogy. Very apt. And you managed to up the quadruple entendre on my username up to a quintuple entendre. Thanks.

Crawling back under blanket now.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/08/10 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Telly
It is much easier to hate yourself and stay mired down in the muck of what a loser you are... to be dark and depressed... than it is to untangle the mess and deal with the anger than is most likely seething within you.

Actually, I believe the exact opposite, at least with respect to the long term. It is much easier to create excuses in our mind as to how difficult or hard something may be in the short term when the truth is that change is not nearly as difficult as we all tend to make it out to be, and we discount how much better our lives will be over the long term in the process. As a result, we live with long term pain and unhappiness, rather than endure short term adversity/uncertainty that most likely results in long term happiness/contentment. IMHO it is really much harder on us to continue to hate ourselves, our choices, than it is to improve ourselves and adapt. Why do something hard when something easy is available right? Trouble is, what we oftentimes think is the easy road is in fact not the easy road long term. We choose what may seem easy in the short term, but with long term adverse consequences that result in depression, anxiety, and bitterness. We must take the road less traveled and change if we want a chance at contentment IMHO.

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It CAN be different. YOU can be different, without a lobotomy, and without ECT.

And I'd add without near as much effort as you believe it will take, if you can adopt a mindset that eliminates the excuses beforehand, i.e. it's hard, it's too expensive, it takes too long, my family won't accept me, etc. Change is difficult because we believe it is difficult, we are our own worst enemies within our our minds (internal dialogue) for the most part IME - at least I know I am when it comes to my own life.
Posted By: JustFigureditout Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/11/10 11:08 AM
The only one who DOESN'T see it as a charade is you Hold.

Unfortunately, from my limited vantage, you are simply teaching your children that your (and ultimately THEIR) needs are not valid and therefore they will feel compelled to relive what they have known. ie YOUR life.

I feel for you, because SF is a huge factor for me and one of the leading reasons I initially LOVED my wife... and one of the biggest reasons we are getting divorced. I make no apology for my desire for her, but you YOURSELF posted links to 2 articles a couple years back on my thread. I read them and broke down, because those articles were stating things exactly how I felt.

However, now you are disregarding those articles, and taking on a victim role. Stating things which make me believe that you have forgotten the essence of the articles. It is that MEN in general, and some men in particular, get a huge amount of LOVE from making love. When that is gone... it is GONE!

IMO... your children would be much better off with a divorced dad who had a spine and could teach them how to have their needs met rather than a doormat who teaches them that their needs are not worthy of being met.

Harsh... I know... but I am talking to MYSELF as much as YOU
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/12/10 04:45 PM
CFIO:

Nice to see you again. Sorry to hear about the divorce. But as you say, it may be the best for all concerned.

What you say is not harsh. It is true. If I have been ignoring reality as much as Mrs. Hold for the past 18 years, I have no one to blame but myself when someone says "open your eyes".
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 02:30 PM
The biggest issue is that I do not love and respect myself enough to insist on what I need and want from life, and to work toward obtaining it. We can disagree on whether my working toward what I need would require me to divorce Mrs. Hold. I think we all agree I need to start working toward something and not just wasting my life sitting around waiting to die.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 02:38 PM
The miserable familiar is less scary than the possible rejection. Yes, I made up that quote myself and know what it is like to live it.

Any ideas or inspiration of what you might could work toward?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 06:26 PM
What's your passion, Hold?

(not sexual passion)

What's your "bliss"?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 06:41 PM
No passion or bliss. Too depressed. I have been depressed so long all I have are distractions / numbing agents, no real passions.

On a more positive note, D13 has been pushing hard for a puppy. Until now we have avoided one because D13 is allergic. Mrs. Hold made an appointment with the allergist to see if D13 can live with one of the less allergen-producing breeds. I think this would be a big help for our family. A dog would give me another outlet for my need for Physical Touch.

As I said to Mrs. Hold today, "a puppy will let me rub behind its ears pretty much whenever I want". She didn't say "ouch", but I could hear a chill in her tone in response. I understand she may feel bad that she does not meet my need for Physical Touch. But hopefully she will be enthusiastic about the idea of doing something that may help me be less depressed. Assuming, of course, that we get the OK from the allergist. D13's health is more important than any pet.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 06:53 PM
I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.

My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/13/10 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.

Quite the opposite. I do and don't do plenty of things I feel sorry about. I know I should be different. But I don't choose to be. That is my bad regardless of whether Mrs. Hold is also doing or not doing things she regrets. Or maybe doesn't regret.

Quote
My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.

Yes, we will clearly need to get a poodle or hairless or some form of "doodle" that is not very allergenic. I had a poodle mix as a kid. She was great. I still have her ashes in my basement (our parents wouldn't let us bury her in the back yard). Poodles tend to be smart and high strung so I like a mix with something a little more - hmmmm, how to say this without a massive canine DJ - relaxed and incurious.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 01:47 PM
Mrs. Hold gave me a "pep talk" this morning in honor of my birthday. That our life is not bad and we have alot to be thankful for. I basically told her every waking moment is agony and I am just putting one foot in front of the other to carry out my responsibilities to her and the children. I have lost all hope for the future and all confidence that I can improve my situation.

And you guys wonder why I fear that if I were Radically Honest with her she would leave me?
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 02:23 PM
Try to look at it another way, Hold:

Be thankful your wife is not as negative as you are. Be thankful that she is still thankful for something. You can be Radically Honest about the fact that things are good for her, and the children, and for you, but things could be a lot better for both of you, and what is missing is largely within her control. She has the power to make things better. You have to think about things better, and recognize the positive when it is there and seize it as an opportunity to Complain Politely.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 02:53 PM
Hold, how did she respond when you told her this?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
You can be Radically Honest about the fact that things are good for her, and the children, and for you, but things could be a lot better for both of you, and what is missing is largely within her control. She has the power to make things better. You have to think about things better, and recognize the positive when it is there and seize it as an opportunity to Complain Politely.

This is where my pessimism really hurts me. I do NOT believe it is within her control. I do NOT believe she has the power to make things better. I do NOT believe that there is any chance Complaining Politely will get her to change.

You see, somewhat perversely, it is only by convincing myself that she is NOT capable of change that I have been able to stay with her. If I thought she WERE capable of changing, but is choosing not to change, I would hate her so much I could not remain in the same room with her.

That is the irony. My coping strategy is to convince myself there is no hope for change on her part. Of course, convincing myself of that dooms me to never be happy (because I know I don't have the guts to leave her). And if I am never going to be happy, why even try? At anything.

Wow, I really need help. Telly suggesting that I do inpatient for a month seems more reasonable lately.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 04:16 PM
Is it your birthday, Hold?

Happy Birthday...

((((Hold)))))

I wish things were better for you...
Posted By: JustFigureditout Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 07:14 PM
Are you taking Antidepressants? I highly recommend this in that not only will it help YOU to feel better, but will diminish the 'sadsack' mood which your presence may bring to your family.

But reality might simply be that your 'depression' is most brought on by the fact that your 'partner' is NOT one.
Posted By: JustFigureditout Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.

Quite the opposite. I do and don't do plenty of things I feel sorry about. I know I should be different. But I don't choose to be. That is my bad regardless of whether Mrs. Hold is also doing or not doing things she regrets. Or maybe doesn't regret.

Quote
My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.

Yes, we will clearly need to get a poodle or hairless or some form of "doodle" that is not very allergenic. I had a poodle mix as a kid. She was great. I still have her ashes in my basement (our parents wouldn't let us bury her in the back yard). Poodles tend to be smart and high strung so I like a mix with something a little more - hmmmm, how to say this without a massive canine DJ - relaxed and incurious.

It is NOT uncommon for our INNER selves to understand more about the situation than our CONSCIOUS selves. Perhaps... your 'choosing' to do things which you know are not the best for your relationship, is merely your inner self's attempt at sabotaging the relationship to the point that it ends. I believe that was what I was doing towards the end. I began 'seeing' more and more of the craziness my wife brought to our relationship. Even with her 'trying' the things she had chosen to do and the way she had acted were not explained. I began seeing that it wasn't just the RELATIONSHIP which was the problem, it was the LIES she told me and the LIES I told myself. I just got to the point that I couldn't 'respect' the person she had chosen to be, and the few changes she was making without actually changing the LIES she was basing herself on, just weren't going to change this fact. I believe that I knew that the marriage was not based on mutual love and respect, but on half-truths and money. When I really began seeing that without my paycheck... we would never have gone on this long, I began realizing that I had been lying to myself. When that broke down... the propping of the marriage upon my shoulders crumbled. I finally felt 'strong enough' in myself, to confront the lies I had been avoiding... and she bolted for the door.

Your choices might be similar. Perhaps your conscious self 'wants' things to be better, however you subconscious self KNOWS that the basis isn't there.

I couldn't NOT get married, because I felt like the 3 years I had dated her had made not only HER, but her daughters MINE. I would have to LEAVE my family if I chose to not marry. So I bucked up and married. My conscious mind wanted to... but I remember telling myself OPENLY, that I WOULDN'T marry her until she got counseling... but I didn't follow through. My subconscious self KNEW... but my conscious self couldn't 'walk away'. That is a hard place to be in. And perhaps you need to delve into those thoughts a bit and see whether you are depressed because of the situation or more because you RECOGNIZE the dissonance between what you KNOW, WANT, and SEE.

IMO this DOG CRAP is just that... CRAP. You are looking for a 'pill' which will fix the problem. Just like people who buy a house or have a baby after an affair, thinking that "IT" will be the thing which 'fixes' everything. I understand it is for your daughter... but read your post again... you are hoping for YOU!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 07:28 PM
CFIO:

I took various anti-depressants over a period of about 14 years. Never made the depression go away. Suffered side effects (sexual, weight gain). So I stopped the ADs. But I am in a deep hole these days, so maybe I should go back on.

You are correct that I am sabotaging in the not-so-subconscious hope that crashing will cause things to end.

You are correct that the dog is intended to be a "pill". I am happy to have the pill. I am not willing to do the work to really heal.

Last night, Mrs. Hold went berzerk about me and D13 talking about the dog. There won't be a dog until after D13 sees the allegist again in May. Mrs. Hold yelled "what about my trip? Why are you researching dogs and not researching my trip?" Remember, I promised to take her and the kids on a trip if she made her goal weight at WW. She has lost 10 - 15 pounds since then so it worked as motivation. She has only a few pounds to go, and she is very excited about the upcoming vacation.

Now of course we are fighting about cost. I never told her how much I was willing to spend (I know, stupid of me). So she is looking for 13 day tours that are hugely expensive. Everything I suggest is, as usual, viewed as a cheap pile of crap. "What, you expect me to endure the indignity of an inside cabin on the cruise ship? What kind of woman do you think I am?" I don't know what I was thinking.
Posted By: JustFigureditout Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
CFIO:

I took various anti-depressants over a period of about 14 years. Never made the depression go away. Suffered side effects (sexual, weight gain). So I stopped the ADs. But I am in a deep hole these days, so maybe I should go back on.

This is telling Hold...

As I tell my patients "If you keep hitting yourself with a hammer... don't expect that any medication is going to make the pain go away."
Posted By: Takola Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 08:08 PM
Hey HOI. I don't know who Cantfigureitout is, b/c I haven't been here in years, but I agree with him/her.

Turns out after lots of expensive therapy, I was never depressed. That's how normal people react to ongoing, unchanging stress.

Hope you are otherwise doing well.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/15/10 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Cantfigureitout
This is telling Hold...

As I tell my patients "If you keep hitting yourself with a hammer... don't expect that any medication is going to make the pain go away."

Boy howdy, do I ever agree with this. A bad marriage is a sure fire cause of depression. I suffered from depression most of my adult life and attribute it to 2 things: a) bad marriage and b) poor nutrition. Some people are very sensitive to bad nutrition and I am one of them. Cleaning up my diet and taking Omega 3 worked wonders for me.

Making those changes changed my life dramatically while taking Paxil and yapping my head off to a counselor made absolutely no difference.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/16/10 02:52 AM
hold..

You were asked what your wife's reaction was to your rejection of her trying to be nice and connect with you. If you answered, I didn't see it.

You have described how you are sabotaging your wife's positive response to the hard work you seemed to be doing to restore your marriage. Several other men here describe themselves doing the same thing.

Dr. David Schnarch describes in his books how many times a couple comes to him with one partner very dissatisfied with their sex life, and the counseling and behavior changes at home quickly reveal that the "less sexual" partner is actually more sexual, and the complaining one is actually afraid of wide open change. They want just a little change, a little more SF, on their terms, but they are afraid of their spouse becoming truly uninhibited and sexual on their own terms.

I am not making that diagnosis of you, but just asking you to think about how much change you are prepared to encounter from your wife. Look at how you are blocking her attempts to connect with you by your rejection of her sharing her intimate thoughts with you. The next time you think you want her to behave a certain way in a situation, try to visualize how you will react in a positive manner to her, and keep the connection going.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/16/10 01:37 PM
My wife teared up when I told her how negative I feel. I called her later to thank her for reaching out to me. She said she was glad I called, because it was very distressing to her to hear how I felt.

I sabotague everything in my life, not just my relationship with my wife. And I am not doing hard work to restore my marriage. I stopped doing that in 2005. I am now just cartaking our roomate status until the kids are out of the house.

It is very possible that my wife is the more sexual of the two of us. She has far more sexual experience than I do. She probably realizes more than I the lousy quality of the sex we have, since she may have experience with good sex with someone else whereas I don't (I have had sex with others but pretty much all of it was bad).

What I am afraid of is not that she will want to be more sexual with me. I am worried that she will want to be sexual with someone else. I am certainly blocking her attempts at intimacy. Not because I don't want us to become more sexual. But because I don't want her to get her ENs met. I don't trust that she will eventually meet my need for SF if I meet her other needs. So I am blocking her out unless and until she provides substantially more sex.

I know it doesn't work that way. I know we have to share Conversation and Undivided Attention before she will be in the mood for sex. I know Dr. Harley would say my behavior is almost guaranteed to NOT produce the outcome I say I desire.

That makes sense. Every day I choose behavior that prevents me from being successful at work. Not surprising that I also choose behavior that prevents my marriage from improving.

I am a mess, and my problems go far beyond what MB addresses. I need professional help.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/16/10 01:54 PM
Does it make sense? Yes, in that it all fits together, and everything you just said is what I suspected.

Does it make sense? No, in that all the reality of what is happening is so filtered through prisms of anger, resentment, self-doubt, conjecture, mindreading, and disrespective judgements about yourself and your wife. Your responses to her changing the way you want her to change are not what they should be, and not what you want them to be, but they are polluted by the same baggage that distort your vision.

Like the posts in other threads said about the importance of SF to men, and how rejection spills over into the rest of their lives, I bet you other attitude and productivity problems at work would vanish right along with the repair of your love life.

You need to decide you want to be happily married, instead of sitting around marking the calendar towards the fantasy exit "when the children are grown". Half-hearted efforts come from lack of commitment, and they are just jerking your wife around.

You laid it all out in black and white for a complete stranger to read. Lay it out for her. You may need some professional help to put the two of you in a room together so you can do that without either one of you losing self control.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/16/10 02:49 PM
Last night Mrs. Hold found a comparatively affordable cruise. Still, with airfare and shore excursions it will cost $5000+. If S15's AAU team makes nationals, it is about $2000 for him and a parent to go to Little Rock for a week. If D13's swim team makes nationals, it is about $1500 for her and a parent to go to Buffalo for a week. We do not have $8000+ for our summer travel budget. We live paycheck to paycheck as it is. She got very snippy at me when I expressed hesitation to sign up for the cruise.

If I were more productive at work, I could afford to do all of this. I can't believe I get more "payoff" from denying her ENs than from creating some great memories with my kids. They will be out of the house soon and I will regret being so self-absorbed.

Originally Posted by retread
Half-hearted efforts come from lack of commitment, and they are just jerking your wife around.

Isn't that the point?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/18/10 01:55 PM
Yesterday Mrs. Hold said "I know we can't afford to go on the kind of vacation I want this year. How about we go away for a long weekend locally this year and do the big trip next summer? You could set aside money from your paycheck each week and have a bunch saved up by next summer."

Doesn't address our credit card debt, but at least she is offering a reality-based solution. I was very happy to hear this. First time I have felt like I had a financial partner rather than an adversary in the past 10 years. Told her so. She was upset to hear I have felt alone and beset for 10 years, but glad to hear I liked her suggestion.

Mrs. Hold is in NY today seeing a movie with MY mom (yesterday was nephew's b-day so we were all together but kids and I drove home last night for S15's b-ball game). My wife stayed over my sister's so she could spend the day with my mom. Good, I guess.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/18/10 10:43 PM
Perhaps the credit card debt seems so insurmountable that she thinks it will never be paid off, so why even try? Not a rational attitude, but one that many people have.

I like the idea of putting money aside each week for holidays. Being able to delay gratification for over a year is indeed a good sign that she is coming closer to understanding what you both need to do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/20/10 03:23 PM
Pleasant sex session this morning. I teased Mrs. Hold afterward "we should not do this again anytime soon". She looked at me curiously and said "why not". I laughed and said "oh, so you don't mind if we do?" She blushed.

She actually has a pretty good record of saying yes the past few months on the rare occassions when I initiate. Maybe I should initiate more often.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/20/10 04:00 PM
YAY!!!!!!!

I'm really happy for you Hold! I think it's great that your wife is stepping up to the plate and attempting to be more of a financial partner with you.



(and you thought I was talking about the sex, didn't you?)

smile



Actually, I would not be surprised if the two things are very interrelated for her. Financial issues and sex issue. Money and sex are both synonomous with power. It's no surprise that as she reached out on the money thing she also became more receptive on the sex side too. As you stopped holding $$ over her head, she stopped holding sex over your head.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/22/10 12:26 PM
Actually, I would not be surprised if the two things are very interrelated for her. Financial issues and sex issue. Money and sex are both synonomous with power. It's no surprise that as she reached out on the money thing she also became more receptive on the sex side too. As you stopped holding $$ over her head, she stopped holding sex over your head.

That's a very interesting observation, and could very well be true.

Hold...have you taken a look lately at the number of views on this thread? lol You're a popular dude around here.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/22/10 02:20 PM
I really need to get back to IC and AD meds. I am dead inside. My wife is happy. Giggling like a school girl. Clapping her hands and jumping up and down. It got so bad S15 told her to calm down and stop acting like an 8 year old at their birthday party.

I don't even have the energy to resent her for being happy. I am not angry. Just empty inside.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/22/10 02:37 PM
Go to the doctor. Very soon. I will go ahead and say that I have worried about you (but not in a weird way). Feeling dead is actually worse than feeling depressed, and you do NOT want to land in a hopsital where they lock up your toothbrush and take all the drawstrings out of your clothing (BTDT).

So, bye. Get off the computer now. Call your doctor.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/26/10 01:24 PM
Mrs. Hold has been very caring lately. Not meeting my ENs. But caring in her way. Verbally gentle instead of complaining harshly. Since I am staying in the marriage, I need to forgive her and myself. Not easy. I don't think she will ever meet my ENs. But I have to let her try. Boy, this is going to hurt.

On a happier note, grades for 3rd marking period arrived last Friday. Of a possible 14 grades in academic subjects, S15 and D13 received 8 A+s, 5 As,and 1 A-. Plus we were watching a tv program in which they were discussing teenage pregnancy, and D13 said "I have no interest in boy spit at this time, and when I do, I will not only make him wear a condom but I will take Daddy's advice and completely dip myself in plastic before I let him touch anything."

So I think our parenting is going well and my choice to stay married these past 10 years has been at least partly for the good. Which is why I really have to get back into the marriage game.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/27/10 01:47 PM
Had a nice evening and morning with Mrs. Hold. She clearly is trying to be pleasant. It cannot be fun to be married to a depressed person who is professionally far less successful than either of us expected. She is trying to show grace. I need to do the same.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/27/10 01:56 PM
The "Boy spit" comment made me laugh. That's how DD14 feels (thank you Lord). DS12 doesn't talk much, but as far as I know he doesn't have a girlfriend. Ugh.

I am glad your W is trying to be sensitive. Have you been to the dr????
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 02:05 PM
I wanted Mrs. Hold to join me in bed this morning. She was planning on going to exercise class. She asid "I will stay with you if you want. I can go to a later class. Not to do that {shrug, sour face, dismissive hand motion}. But lie there and hold your hand for a while."

I called her later to discuss logistics for tonight. After we talked a while I thanked her for the morning's offer. I said "it was not the offer I wished for, but it was an indication of your care and concern."

She said I overanalyze too much and bring our relationship up too often and I am freaking her out. I agreed and thanked her for the information. I told her "you are the primary focus of my attention every waking moment. I realize that is an overwhelming burden to bear. I need to take my focus off you, and focus on other areas of my life."

She remained silent. I wished her a nice day and hung up.

Unless I somehow find a way to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year more than I make now, which is inconceivable while I continue my obsessive navel gazing, she will never be motivated to meet my ENs. While she refrains from meeting my ENs, I remain ineffective at all areas of life. This stinks. But not enough for me to choose differently.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 02:28 PM
Hold, I don't know you or Mrs. Hold personally and I don't know the details of your past being that I've only been here for a little over a year. From what I gather, Mrs. Hold has not been interested in sex for almost the entire marriage, has vastly overspent and lied about it, did not want to go to MC or do the homework necessary, all of which aided in your spiral down into withdrawal and depression.

That's my outsider's view in 25 words or less. LOL

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and make some big [censored] assumptions (which will probably be wrong, but maybe there will be something in there that will allow you to take a new view).

I see Mrs. Hold as someone who has major self esteem issues. How and why they developed, well I don't know and...there's not much you or she can do to change that. How she appears to deal with them is to hide. She used to use food. She avoids sex because it's too much "out there" and leaves her to vulnerable. I guess you could even say that being fat gave her an extra layer of protection.

But now she's dealing with the weight issue. Pardon the pun, but that's huge. She has a new body image, physically. Mentally she is trying to catch up. She still appears to be very uncomfortable with the entire intimate nature of sex...she can't even *say* it; she has to communicate via hand motions and facial expressions.

It would be ideal if she could really get on board the MB program and realize that SF is a huge need for you and she needs to do whatever she can to meet it. She already is meeting other, less important needs of yours quite well...DS, FC, right?

I might get flamed for saying this...especially from the other guys on the board who insist SF is a valid and important need for men. I don't disagree (and I agree it is for women too, just not in the same way, perhaps). But I thought I'd throw it out there....

What if you tried to NOT equate everything back in your life to sex. What if you tried to figure out what other needs SF fills besides the obvious and focus a bit on those? When you have SF you are of course getting sex. But are you not also getting affection and admiration? And perhaps conversation? And recreational companionship?

I'm not suggesting you bury your need for SF. Just realize that there might be other needs of yours that are getting wrapped up in SF and try to figure out other areas of your life where those needs can be met *in addition* to being met in the SF area. Perhaps Mrs. Hold would be more than willing to step up to the plate and ramp up Admiration, Affection, Conversation.

Perhaps you can pull back on the degree of honesty. I'm not suggesting don't be honest with her. But this statement:
Quote
I told her "you are the primary focus of my attention every waking moment. I realize that is an overwhelming burden to bear. I need to take my focus off you, and focus on other areas of my life."
right after she admitted to you that she was freaked out...

probably freaked her out more.

Maybe you could have just told her that she is the major focus of your attention and thoughts and left it at that, without sharing what you think you need to do?

Sometimes I try to put myself in Mrs. Hold's position and I empathize with her because I immediately feel a lot of *pressure*...that the success in your life is totally dependent upon HER. I feel a lot of this in my own marriage, so I might be projecting. I can tell you that I wind up feeling resentful about it.

I wish that my husband could base his self-esteem on well..himself!
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:16 PM
[quote=OurHouse

I wish that my husband could base his self-esteem on well..himself! [/quote]


Here Here
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
I wish that my husband could base his self-esteem on well..himself!

I understand. I am sure Mrs. Hold feels this way. I agree it would be healthier for me to do so.

Still, I don't ever see it happening. Not justifying. Not saying that is OK. Just saying it is.

I see it as a weakness in myself. I accept it is destroying any chance I might otherwise have for happiness. Yet I do not see myself ever choosing to base my happiness on anything else.

Why the heck do you think I am so depressed?!?! I know what I need to do to be happy. And I refuse to do it. THAT is tremendously depressing. And it is not her fault. It is mine.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:39 PM
Hold, have you ever combined AD's with work with a really good CBT therapist? I really believe you can make some serious changes in your outlook and choose to find some happiness, you maybe just need some better tools than what you have right now.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:47 PM
Mr Hold,

Can I admit something to you?

I avoided your thread because I felt you were obsessed with getting sex from your wife and it bugged me because I am female I guess... I felt you were so focused on the sex you weren't getting that you were not willing to fully clean up your side of the street so that there would be a safe environment for your wife to be sexual with you. The way I see it now... I just do not fully comprehend what you are feeling. There has to be more to your experiences. I want to understand.

For example, why are you fixated on your wife in the way you recently described? Do you have activities in your life (apart from your wife and maarige) which you are involved in...which give your days / existence meaning? (Not advocating IB, just asking about you smile ) Also, the word depressed has been used in your thread several times. Are you actually Depressed (300.4)? If you are, what (if anything) are you doing about it?

I apologize if these issues have already been covered, but I haven't been here long enough to know the details.

Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by TheAntiChick
Hold, have you ever combined AD's with work with a really good CBT therapist? I really believe you can make some serious changes in your outlook and choose to find some happiness, you maybe just need some better tools than what you have right now.


mr eek... ((Taking cover))
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 03:51 PM
Why are you taking cover? CBT has its definite pros over other types of therapy IMO. I went through a 10 year period of debilitating panic attacks to the point where I was almost house-bound. The docs wanted to medicate it out of me with Xanax, etc. It was ONLY through CBT that I overcame it.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 04:04 PM
LOL! You missed the situation I got into with ML about CBT yesterday didn't you? Click here if you're bored.

ETA: CBT helped me as I was in the initial stages of implementing MB. It helped me by showing me how to help myself. In my experience CBT is awesome.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 04:12 PM
Chris, I finally just ducked out of that particular conversation rather than lock horns, but I maintain that *properly applied* CBT is *NOT* against MB principles, but actually *enhances* them. I take the approach on the forums here of stating my position, and the reasons why, and then leaving it. I will not lock horns with people who keep repeating themselves and quoting the same material over and over even when it does not address what I've said.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 04:21 PM
Tried CBT. Whether the person was good or not is hard to judge from the inside. Made no difference.

Everyone tells me to choose to view things differently. To stop seeing everything negatively and to stop being so pessimistic. To take action to work toward my goals. To behave differently even if I don't feel differently.

After 30 years of therapy (some of which was CBT) and drugs and posting on internet forums, I don't see myself ever choosing differently. I don't believe I am capable of changing. I don't have any hope that things can get better if I change my behavior. I think I am doomed to failure. And that is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I choose to place all the burden on my wife. To avoid taking responsibility for myself. I don't see myself ever choosing differently. Not even after she leaves.

Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
I felt you were so focused on the sex you weren't getting that you were not willing to fully clean up your side of the street so that there would be a safe environment for your wife to be sexual with you.

This is true. I am not willing to clean up my side of the street. That is why I no longer claim to be applying MB. MB would require me to clean up my stuff.

Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
Do you have activities in your life (apart from your wife and maarige) which you are involved in...which give your days / existence meaning?

I have other activities. My job. On the board of my temple. Nothing that gives my life meaning.

Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
Are you actually Depressed (300.4)? If you are, what (if anything) are you doing about it?

Yes. Nothing.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by TheAntiChick
Chris, I finally just ducked out of that particular conversation rather than lock horns, but I maintain that *properly applied* CBT is *NOT* against MB principles, but actually *enhances* them.

This is my opinion and it has been my personal experience. I do not feel I would have been so successful implementing MB without the CBT.

Quote
I take the approach on the forums here of stating my position, and the reasons why, and then leaving it. I will not lock horns with people who keep repeating themselves and quoting the same material over and over even when it does not address what I've said.

And I need to follow your example. After that experience I have learned a very valuable lesson which I will be using from this point forward.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 04:58 PM
Mr Hold,

Since you know all of these things you also have the power to use that knowldege for a better life and a better marriage...provided that you actually want a better life and a better marriage.

After reading what you wrote, I am not even sure that you want those things.

I'm not a "professional" but after reading what you wrote, I believe that Mrs Hold could have sex with you every day twice a day and you would still be unhappy.


Quote
I am not willing to clean up my side of the street. That is why I no longer claim to be applying MB. MB would require me to clean up my stuff.
I have a more simple question:
If you are not doing MB, then why are you here Mr Hold?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 06:16 PM
This is one of the few things in life that holds the pain at bay for a time.

I am tired. I am afraid. And you are correct. I don't want happiness badly enough to overcome my fear and exhaustion. I have lost hope. I do not believe I am capable of improvement. Or that any possible improvement could result in happiness.

Years ago more sex would have made me happy. It did. On the rare occassions we had sex, I was happy. That was back when I still had hope. Drove Mrs. Hold nuts. Now, I agree with you. No amount of sex would make me happy. I am too far down into the depression. What the sex might do, however, is give me hope. That change is possible. In which case, perhaps I could rouse myself into action.

Many people do not fix their marriage until after an affair. Does not excuse the affair. Still, the marriage always needed fixing. It would have been in each person's own interest to fix the marriage before the affair. Saved both of them much pain. But sometimes people won't take action to build something new until they blow up the old place.

I don't see myself ever choosing to work on my marriage (or my life) until Mrs. Hold provides more sex or one of us leaves. Sometimes I even hope she will have an affair. Anything to get us out of this rut. I cannot climb out. The walls are too steep. So could somebody please throw down a hand grenade? Or set off a C4 charge? If it doesn't kill me, maybe it would blow a hole in the wall or blow me up out of the trench.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 06:51 PM
Chris: Regardless of where Hold is in his personal life, I think he has a great grasp of the MB program and his advice to others on this forum is very good!
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 08:49 PM
I understand that, but my question is still: Why is he here?

knowing what this forum is for...
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/28/10 08:50 PM
Mr Hold, thanks for being honest and sharing your feelings.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 02:26 AM
ITA with what OH just said.

One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned lately is that hold DID do his part, "clean up his side of the street" for quite a long time, IIRC; and Mrs. Hold made promises but didn't follow through. The MB "next step" is Plan B, something that Hold is not willing to do at the moment, because he wants to maintain the marriage for the kids' sake.

I can *totally* see how that would be depressing. Sure there may be a "solution" but at a price that he isn't willing to pay. The old rock and a hard place.

I don't think I'd be willing to go to Plan B just because my spouse doesn't meet my biggest EN (Conversation).

The only other option that I can see is to keep trying to motivate the other person; to be H&O about how you *really* feel, about how much it affects you when your EN isn't met; and about your feelings of resentment, etc.

Hold, I think you are getting much better at that. And I think your W is starting to respond. It may not be as hopeless as it feels right now.

Beware that you haven't gotten so attached to your resentment that you cling to it. I know it's scary to feel vulnerable. It's ok, you can do it. You've already taken some of the hardest steps. You may not see how far you've come, but you have come a long way. IMHO.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
And I think your W is starting to respond. It may not be as hopeless as it feels right now.

This morning we were watching tv and someone said the words "buns" in relation to hot dogs and I said "you know there is only one set of buns I am interested in". She said "yes, I know" and HELD OUT HER HAND FOR ME TO HOLD. Amazing. Instead of chastising me for obsessing about her body, she reached out to me after I complimented her butt!!!!!

I told her to hold that thought until after I get home from work.

Quote
Beware that you haven't gotten so attached to your resentment that you cling to it.

I worry about that all the time. I love my resentment. Resentment is my constant companion. She never rejects me. It will be hard to give her up.

But if Mrs. Hold reaches out to me, I must.
Posted By: ChrisInNOVA Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 02:59 PM
smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
This morning we were watching tv and someone said the words "buns" in relation to hot dogs and I said "you know there is only one set of buns I am interested in". She said "yes, I know" and HELD OUT HER HAND FOR ME TO HOLD. Amazing. Instead of chastising me for obsessing about her body, she reached out to me after I complimented her butt!!!!!

hurray

Quote
Quote
Beware that you haven't gotten so attached to your resentment that you cling to it.

I worry about that all the time. I love my resentment. Resentment is my constant companion. She never rejects me. It will be hard to give her up.

I totally understand. If I don't watch out, I can still fall back into resentment. It feels ... good, in a strange (unhealthy) way... like scratching a mosquito bite until it bleeds and hurts? Well, an imperfect analogy.

Anyway, kudos to you for still being enough "in the game" to be able to say the following:

Quote
But if Mrs. Hold reaches out to me, I must.

I'm very happy for you, that there seems to be such progress!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 03:50 PM
There does seem to be something different in the air. Nothing sexual, but a different attitude on her part. For years I complimented her frequently. She disdained the compliments. And never reciprocated. So I stopped complimenting her. Recently she complained that I never say anything nice anymore. So I have gone back to "sweet talking" her.

Lately she smiles when I say something nice. And sometimes she even says something nice back! The kids have noticed. D13 said something like "Dad is still the king of the sweet talkers, but Mom is definitely upping her game."

I always express appreciation when she says something complimentary. I am trying to accept it at face value and not give in to the resentful thought "yeah, but if you really felt that way, why aren't you jumping my bones?"
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 04:01 PM
I understand about the resentment. I am dealing w/ some health problems. My husband was trying to help me by reviewing a list of specialists I'd found on the web. He was reading out the info. I was running late to work. I was as usual, distracted, preoccupied, feeling lousy, stressed out about work, money and a whole host of other things. I *could* have said something like "honey, I'm so glad you are trying to help me. Can we set aside a time later tonight to talk about this. I just can't concentrate right now; I'm trying to leave before the school bus comes down the street and I get stuck behind it."

(he knew all of this but restating it couldn't have hurt...except that I would have resented it, so I didn't!)

At some point he said to me, "I'm trying to help, please don't push me away" And I replied with an abbreviated version of above. Then I suggested that I call him on my way to work. He replied "don't bother. I don't want to talk about this by phone. Or email."

So I said 'you are pushing away!"

This was after my drive by O&H moment last night when I told him his AOs pushed me away.

I probably could do MY part much better if I just shoved the resentment and anger up on a shelf but I don't.

So in that regard, Hold, I do see where you're coming from.

Hard to change ingrained habits.

sorry to t/j
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 05:32 PM
UGH!!! Hold!! After about a year away from this board I come back to see you in the same spot even the same thread. You only get one chance to live your life there are no do overs. Do you want to spend your one chance of life being so pesimistic that you were unable to enjoy all of the blessings you have been given? (knocking Hold aside his head lol) You have 2 beautiful children who are growing up really fast and you have spent the majority of their childhood feeling sorry for yourself. Not that you are not a good father however your negativity must show to them also. You may not have the perfect wife. Yes she has made mistakes but she has also stood by you. You have a education something many people would die for the chance to get. You live in a nice home, can pay your bills, everyone is healthy in your family. What more do you want?? More sex??? When you get more sex then you over analyze that also. Yes Hold you have been to therapy but you don't stay and do what the therapist want you to. You want it to be a quick magic pill that will take all of your problems away. There is nothing like that. You have to relearn how to be happy. I just wish you could see the good things you have in life and quit wishing for the impossible.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by jillybean43
You have to relearn how to be happy.

Not relearn. Learn. Never been happy. Well, at least since I was 5. Can't remember farther back than that.

Quote
I just wish you could see the good things you have in life and quit wishing for the impossible.

Me too. I wish I could stop wanting what I want and start wanting what I have.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 05:51 PM
So what are your life plans then? To just keep on complaining about how sad you are and watch life slip on past you? Or are you going to do something about it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 06:56 PM
No plans. No goals. Just watching it slip by.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/29/10 07:00 PM
Pretty sad Hold pretty sad. Life has so much to offer but you have to do what you have to do I guess.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 11:55 AM
As I posted earlier, I promised Mrs. Hold a fancy trip if she reached her goal weight. She is getting close, and we can't afford to do what she wants this summer. So we compromsed that this summer we would take a less fancy trip to Maine and save up to take a fancy trip next summer.

Last night at dinner Mrs. Hold started talking about her plans for Maine. We should go sea kayaking and then do a sailboat cruise. Then the boys should play golf while the girls get facials and have lunch by the pool. She had not discussed any of that with me before raising it with the kids at dinner.

I said "I know this sounds fun, but we can't afford all those excursions. This was supposed to be an inexpensive chance for us to get away from home while we save up for next year's trip. If you keep adding on expensive recreation items, then this trip will have to be INSTEAD of next year."

I fell into an even deeper depression. It was a hot day yesterday and we went out for ice cream after dinner. Mrs. Hold could tell I was out of sorts. She asked what was wrong. I told her "I feel like a failure. I can't afford to send my kids to the activities they want to do this summer. I can't afford to buy S15 a car when he turns 16 next fall. I can't afford to take you on the vacation you want. I feel awful."

She said "yes, I can see how all those one on top of the other could bring you down." I thanked her for noticing. She said "yes, well, I do care."

The problem is that I don't care. Not enough to change my behavior so I can afford more. And not enough to leave her.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 12:16 PM
Hold, I checked out from my library the book Alcoholics Anonymous. In AA, it's called the Big book. I work a different 12 step program, but this book has really helped me get an even deeper grasp on the 12 steps. I encourage you to take a look, and see if you think a 12 step fellowship could help you, too. It's a very accessible way to feel a part of something bigger than yourself. I think it would support your efforts that you are making to get more involved at Temple. Do you have a mentor there you can call?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 12:29 PM
Hold, how about instead of a fancy trip or even modest trip to Maine, you and the wife and kids go to a third world country like Haiti for a week.

I want to totally 2x4 your for your comment about feeling like a failure because you can't afford to buy your teenage kid a car.

Because IMHO, actually BUYING your kid a new car when he turns 16 is a total failure in parenting. We are supposed to be raising ADULTS, NOT CHILDREN>>>>> and ADULTS get jobs and buy their OWN vehicles that they can afford. And if they can only afford a $2,000 beater, then they work a bit harder to earn a little bit better car and slowly upgrade, and have along with it a sense of pride and accomplishment.

It seems to me that you are staying in your marriage for the sake of your children. However, with the attitude and chip on your shoulder that you have, you still aren't doing your kids any favors. You may still be causing harm. Don't think you're off the hook just because you stayed married "for their sake." I am the product of a marriage that stayed together primarily because of us kids, and I can tell you there are days when I wish my parents had just been brutally honest with each other and had agreed to go their separate ways instead of pretending that there weren't problems and living in denial. I personally believe that staying for the sake of the kids can be JUST as emotionally damaging as divorce , except no one ever does a study on that.

The reason that you are so depressed, I believe, is because you have an incredibly superficial definition of what it means to be successful. Buying your kids cars? Being able to afford fancy trips and summer activities for the kids? Give me a break, please. No wonder your self-esteem is in the toilet! One way to have healthy self-esteem is to do activities that are WORTHY of esteem. Another way is to know Who you belong to. When I believe that my purpose in life is not simply to live, breathe, procreate, work, and die, but rather, that I am created to play an integral and unique role in the cosmos, that gives me self-esteem. I may not play that role perfectly, but I have a purpose, and it's not to make sure my kids get to live like royalty. It's to teach them, and everyone I know, what love looks like by putting it in action, starting with myself.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 12:31 PM
I have read off and on. Sorry if this info is posted.

What medical interventions (medication and councel) have you taken?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 12:38 PM
Thanks for the 2x4. We had a barbecue for the kids at Sunday School yesterday. I organized it. More Dads than I expected showed up. It was a great time. The religious school director was thrilled. So why was it so hard for me to motivate myself to do the work to make it happen? I had to really push myself just to send the e-mail to invite the Dads to help. From the response, there clearly is a desire among the dads to get more involved. So why don't I feel pleased that the event went well?

You are right, we should be more thankful. My son plays on an inner city team and we see how many of the kids live. We dropped one kid off at his grandma's house after practice. There were no cars parked on the street (and the houses do not have garages). My wife asked where everyone was so late at night. I said "honey, in this neighborhood no one can afford a car." We are very blessed. I wish I could feel that way more often.

You are correct. I shouldn't be angry with Mrs. Hold for asking for fancy things. I should be mad at myself for buying into the view that my value as a person is based on my net worth. After all, everyone knows my value as a person is based on how often my wife has sex with me! wink
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I should be mad at myself for buying into the view that my value as a person is based on my net worth. After all, everyone knows my value as a person is based on how often my wife has sex with me! wink

Hold, I do love your sense of humor.

I know what you mean about having such a hard time making those emails/phone calls. It helps me to examine myself really deeply when I find myself procrastinating. It yields a tremendous amount of self-awareness if I do this with honesty. Usually there is a reason for my feet-dragging. Accepting it, rather than judging it, has been extremely helpful and life-chainging.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/03/10 05:07 PM
Hold,

I'm going to suggest you doing, again, rather than reasoning. Do it without waiting to change your thinking.

Ask your DW if she would help you to not feel like such a failure. Ask her if she would come up with a plan to repay the debt she incurred before, and to do this by her cutting out something(s) slowly, over one year, so that you guys could really take the cool vacation.

And she could be really honest, and write down the amount of her plan for the small vacation (turned large in her mind), write down a daily "not spend" to go towards it.

Sounds inside out...I get that. Yet, her trimming each week could count as payment...and if she sees where she can't come close in doing so for 52 weeks (if she's only saving $50), then she can do part time work to accelerate it.

And if she chooses not to do the part-time or full-time work to pay back that debt, then you guys don't go on the cool vacation next year until she does.

Her way of helping you, helping herself...and you asking and letting go the response.

It won't be about you. Won't mean she doesn't want you to feel like a failure. Won't mean she doesn't care...means she has her own issues...and you love her enough to stop standing in the way of her own redemption.

Love her more, 'k?

You can do this.

LA
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/04/10 12:16 PM
I second everything LA said smile

Quote
We had a barbecue for the kids at Sunday School yesterday. I organized it. More Dads than I expected showed up. It was a great time. The religious school director was thrilled. So why was it so hard for me to motivate myself to do the work to make it happen? I had to really push myself just to send the e-mail to invite the Dads to help. From the response, there clearly is a desire among the dads to get more involved. So why don't I feel pleased that the event went well?

Like that rocks in the river thing, I don't think our rewards for the changes we make in our life accumulate overnight, but in time and consistency. I think you can do for your group what you may not be willing today to do for yourself. Way to Go, Hold, keep it up! How about an asking someone at Temple to be an accountability mentor for you? I think if nothing else, it can help you reframe the time you do spend with your family and in your community, help you see the positive results, connect more with your successes than in the shortcomings.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/05/10 07:06 PM
I need to get my head straight. Mrs. Hold has been trying to show she cares. She complimented me today on something where her natural reaction would have been to chastise me for taking on scut work. She could tell I wanted to see it as a "win" so she praised me for it despite her reservations.

I do listen to people here and try to see glimmers of hope even when I don't feel very hopeful.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/10/10 03:24 PM
Had a nice weekend. No sex but Mrs. Hold was pleasant. During a party Saturday night mostly for kids the DJ said "they just opened the ice cream table, so the kids are busy. This next song is a slow dance for the couples in love." I immediately put down my ice cream (yes, I was 3rd in line ahead of all the kids) and danced with Mrs. Hold. At the end of the song, the DJ said "and now here is another slow dance. I want all the married couples out here on the dance floor." We stayed out there.

We were curious if the DJ had done it in reverse order (married dance followed by in love dance), would any of the couples have left the dance floor? Or at least how many sets of wierd looks between married couples asking each other "do we stay out here for this"?

Oh, and kudos to Mrs. Hold for reaching her goal weight at Weight Watchers. She is down 56 pounds from when she started the contest in January 2009. It is amazing. Even with the party Saturday night and Mother's Day brunch she lost a pound this past week.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 02:17 PM
Interesting incident this morning. We were talking about Obama's nomination to the Supreme Court. I said "another Ivy League educated lawyer. Could have picked someone with a slightly different background." Mrs. Hold said "that is what we want at the Supreme Court. Big brained smarty pants people."

I smiled and with a twinkle in my eye asked "like anyone you know?" She frowned and said "yes, I am surrounded by them here. I am stuck with three of them. How did that happen?"

I leaned toward her still smiling. "Yes, I am sure it is terrible being surrounded by me and the kids." I leaned in slowly and aimed my nose to nuzzle with her neck. I knew not to try and kiss her because I had not yet brushed my teeth. I knew to lean in slowly to not startle her.

She shoved my head away from her quite violently with both of her hands. Not playfully. Not leaving open that I could continue to try and kiss her. But with a disgusted look on her face and hard enough that I almost fell off the bed.

I looked at her quizzically and asked in what I hope was a neutral tone "can you help me to interpret that gesture as something other than rejection? Because it felt like rejection to me." She started giggling nervously and said "you mean a two handed shove to the face?" I replied "yes, I just wanted to point it out so we are clear. Occassionally you ask me why I feel rejected so I wanted to point out that this is an example of you rejecting me." She said something like "yes, well, I guess most people would interpret shoving your head away as rejection."

I asked if she would do that to the kids. If they were discussing whether they got 3 or 4 or 5 A+ grades on their report card. If one of them leaned in for a hug. Could she imagine herself shoving them away with both hands? She said no and kept giggling like it was some kind of joke.

I too was laughing a nervous laugh. I didn't want to make too much of this. It was funny that I caught her in a "gotcha" moment. She was laughing and squirming in a "OK, you got me, I can't talk my way out of this one" moment. But despite the laughing, it still hurt.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 03:02 PM
I hope she does not feel like she doesn't fit into our family. I tell her all the time that she is smart. That she graduated from a private university. That she got promoted to a position without graduate school that typically requires an MBA. That she has common sense and street smarts that some of us brainiac people don't have.

I should explore with her whether sometimes she is intimidated by me and the kids.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 03:08 PM
Hold, sounds to me like she's tired of you rubbing your brainiac ways in her face. What you said about her being surrounded by you and the kids clearly communicated that you think she's the dumbest person in the family.

And you wonder why she rejects you? Really?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 04:03 PM
She only wishes I rub my brainiac ways in her face. I am the most anti-intellectual person she knows. She thought she was going to marry a sophisticated cultured person. I spend my free time playing video games. She was the one who told me during our courtship that "smart is sexy and that she wanted to marry a brainiac." She frequently complains that I don't give myself credit for being smart and successful. I prefer not to make an issue of where I went to law school, because I feel embarrassed. She says she wishes I would trumpet it. She has told me she likes it when I act proud of my intellect, instead of downplaying it.

But maybe that is all an act. Certainly it was during courtship. Years later I found out that while we were dating, she used fishing analogies to describe our relationship. "He is on the hook." "I am reeling him in but I haven't landed him yet." "I am about to hit him with the gaff and drag him onto the boat." Maybe all her statements about liking my braininess were BS designed to lure me in. She has continued to say them while we are married. But maybe they are rote recitations or maybe she is trying to convince herself she truly believes it.

And please note that SHE is the one who said she is surrounded by them. She said she has three of them here, in a tone that made it seem like a bad thing. I am the one who said I wish Obama had NOT nominated an Ivy League lawyer to the Court. I asid I wish he had named someone who might have a different viewpoint. She is the one who said she thinks braininess SHOULD be the primary consideration.

I understand that without saying the words, I deliver the message "you are not enough" whenever I complain about the lack of sex. So I make darn sure to compliment her constantly in every way about her good qualities. Including that I think she is smart. Just as she knows she sends the message that I am inadequate every day by complaining about things we cannot afford. Lately she has been trying to compliment me more frequently to make up for that. And one thing she compliments me on is my braininess. It must be something she admires, because she says she is trying to explain to me why she stays. She says she stays because I am brainy. Go figure!
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 04:26 PM
You baited her into it, Hold, with your fishing (ha!) for a compliment ("Like anyone you know?").

You blew a fantastic chance for a great intellectual conversation on the merits that should be considered when selecting nominees for Supreme Court--and increased intimacy with your W--by showing YET AGAIN that you're only after an ego-stroking.

That gets old, Hold.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 04:43 PM
Hold, I think the situation describes perfectly a basic truth about attraction:

That we are attracted to most what we are most insecure about in ourselves. That would include both strengths and faults. I am attracted to the traits that I feel I most lack. And I a simultaneously attracted to the traits which irritate me the most (because in fact, those are the character defects which I have hidden most carefully, even from myself).

I have come up with my own "solution" to this "problem," which deals solely with MY side of the street. I learn to cultivate the things that I lack and desire from others (like discipline, intellectual honesty, compassion, emotional stability, humility). I become self-supporting in that way, which is not to say that I don't seek help from those who can help me. I still allow myself to be interdependent with my spouse, and others to the degree that I find appropriate as I grow as a person.

At the same time, I do a very hard look at myself, at my character defects, at what motivates them, causes them, etc. And rather than try to change my character defects, I have compassion for myself as I become willing and able to make a commitment to change those defects. Disrespect, dishonesty, self-righteousness, pride. Sometimes it is hard for me to truly know what my character defects are, so it helps for me to make a list of DJs about others who irritate me, since it's so easy to do smile I can take someone else's inventory like nobody's business! Then I say to myself, this is just ME projecting my OWN character defects onto THEM! I take ownership of those defects as my own, maybe talk about them with a trusted friend or pastor to see if I really AM all those things (and sometimes I'm not). By cultivating compassion for my own defects, I begin to have compassion for the irritating behaviors of others, and they bother me less. Like my spouse. Especially my spouse.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Interesting incident this morning. We were talking about Obama's nomination to the Supreme Court. I said "another Ivy League educated lawyer. Could have picked someone with a slightly different background." Mrs. Hold said "that is what we want at the Supreme Court. Big brained smarty pants people."

I smiled and with a twinkle in my eye asked "like anyone you know?" She frowned and said "yes, I am surrounded by them here. I am stuck with three of them. How did that happen?"

I leaned toward her still smiling. "Yes, I am sure it is terrible being surrounded by me and the kids." I leaned in slowly and aimed my nose to nuzzle with her neck. I knew not to try and kiss her because I had not yet brushed my teeth. I knew to lean in slowly to not startle her.

She shoved my head away from her quite violently with both of her hands. Not playfully. Not leaving open that I could continue to try and kiss her. But with a disgusted look on her face and hard enough that I almost fell off the bed.

I looked at her quizzically and asked in what I hope was a neutral tone "can you help me to interpret that gesture as something other than rejection? Because it felt like rejection to me." She started giggling nervously and said "you mean a two handed shove to the face?" I replied "yes, I just wanted to point it out so we are clear. Occassionally you ask me why I feel rejected so I wanted to point out that this is an example of you rejecting me." She said something like "yes, well, I guess most people would interpret shoving your head away as rejection."

I asked if she would do that to the kids. If they were discussing whether they got 3 or 4 or 5 A+ grades on their report card. If one of them leaned in for a hug. Could she imagine herself shoving them away with both hands? She said no and kept giggling like it was some kind of joke.

I too was laughing a nervous laugh. I didn't want to make too much of this. It was funny that I caught her in a "gotcha" moment. She was laughing and squirming in a "OK, you got me, I can't talk my way out of this one" moment. But despite the laughing, it still hurt.

That sucks.

Horrible horrible horrible!

I think you should use this as an opportunity to ask her what the h*ll goes on in her head that she would be abusive to you like that when you were trying to be sweet to her!

I think she was giggling because she knows what she did was insane, and it's hard to deny that something is wrong with you when you grab your husband's face in your hands and shove him violently away.

I'm so mad and disgusted for you right now, Hold!

If YOU had done that to her, you'd undoubtedly have had the police called on you!!!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:15 PM
Ditto Telly!

I think the important thing here is that you have finally pointed out to her one concrete way in which she rejects you. Not that you should feel guilty over admitting that you are smart. (It sounds like you have enough "guilt" or shame over that already.) She's the one who turned the conversation away from a discussion of Supreme Court nominees and on to her being surrounded by brainiacs.

Very interesting that she was giggling (in an embarrassed, uncomfortable way).

Muchos kudos to you for speaking up, letting her know *in that instant* that what she did felt like rejection. This H&O speaking up on your part is leading to more and more hope, IMHO.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by CWMI
You baited her into it, Hold, with your fishing (ha!) for a compliment ("Like anyone you know?").

You blew a fantastic chance for a great intellectual conversation on the merits that should be considered when selecting nominees for Supreme Court--and increased intimacy with your W--by showing YET AGAIN that you're only after an ego-stroking.

That gets old, Hold.

You are right. I was fishing for a compliment. I should be content within myself, and not need compliments. Or ego stroking. Really, that is the primary reason I seek sex. For the ego stroking that arises when she consents. I could take or leave the sex. It is the ego stroking I seek. Not that I get any. But I keep insanely hoping that some day I might. Stupid to keep trying.

I am confident Mrs. Hold sees me the way you see me. And I have no intention of changing. I should get back to the video games and stop trying to interact with Mrs. Hold. No woman wants to be married to, much less have sex with, someone so needy and immature.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:29 PM
Quote
I said "another Ivy League educated lawyer. Could have picked someone with a slightly different background."

Mrs. Hold said "that is what we want at the Supreme Court. Big brained smarty pants people."

I smiled and with a twinkle in my eye asked "like anyone you know?" (FISHING FOR COMPLIMENT)

She frowned and said "yes, I am surrounded by them here. I am stuck with three of them. How did that happen?" (EXPRESSING DISDAIN FOR YOUR FISHING FOR AN EGO-STROKING)

I leaned toward her still smiling. "Yes, I am sure it is terrible being surrounded by me and the kids." (EWWW...)

That's not being sweet. That's something else entirely. Sweet would be saying, in response to her "How did that happen?" would be saying something like, "Because you bring out the best in all of us." What you said only reinforced her apparent belief that it IS terrible being with you. Why not reinforce something else, Hold?



Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:33 PM
Hold, you have a tremendous need for Admiration and Affection (let's just leave SF out of the convo for now...I'm not discounting it..just leaving it off to the side for the moment).

It seems obvious, that Mrs. Hold does not recognize/does not wish to meet this Admiration need. Why? Who knows. Perhaps because she doesn't have a huge need herself and doesn't recognize that is not an excuse for not fulfilling your need.

Maybe instead of focusing on the actual rejection ("aha, you did something wrong and I caught you"), can you turn it around and point it out as you putting your Admiration need out there and her clearly missing a chance to meet it?
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I should get back to the video games and stop trying to interact with Mrs. Hold. No woman wants to be married to, much less have sex with, someone so needy and immature.

Oh, quit with the pity party. No one wants to hear it smile

(I mean that in the absolute friendliest way, from one pity partier to another! LOL)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by jayne241
She's the one who turned the conversation away from a discussion of Supreme Court nominees and on to her being surrounded by brainiacs.

No, she didn't. He did.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:45 PM
FANTASTIC point, OH!!!!!

Hold, maybe drop the whole need for SF right now and see if your wife can start meeting the need for admiration!

This is one of my husband's top needs, and he is MUCH happier when it is met, and it takes so little effort on my part.

You're not needy. Not really. You have EN. That is not the same thing as being needy, and if you keep selling yourself that line, you are going to drive yourself nuts.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 05:57 PM
Hold, have you ever utilized the resources here at MB other than the message board? A chat with Steve, a weekend seminar, the online program?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by thinkinitthru66
Oh, quit with the pity party. No one wants to hear it smile

I know. That is why I post here so much less frequently than I used to.

I meant my post literally. I understand I should work to enhance my self esteem. I would be more likely to get Admiration from Mrs. Hold if I behaved admirably. I don't intend to. Not pity party. Sad tired exhausted acceptance of reality. I am not going to change. I am not going to work on myself to try and "earn" Admiration. Or work on myself to lessen my need for Admiration. I have given up. Literally. I am just going to withdraw.

I think CWMI's posts reflect pretty darn closely how Mrs. Hold feels about me. That does not inspire me to work harder or inform me on how to better relate to my wife. It merely confirms my despair that I will ever get my needs met. And motivates me to withdraw further.

Which I understand fuels CWMI's and Mrs. Hold's disdain for me. If not disgust. Which is why I value CWMI's input so highly. She is showing me the side that Mrs. Hold never admits to. I need to be reminded of those thoughts. Even if I choose not to address them.

I am frustrated not only with Mrs. Hold's constant rejection. But also by my own unwillngness to change. When our MC fired us, it wasn't only over Mrs. Hold's refusal to change. It was over mine too.

People often ask why I continue to post here. Every day I ask myself if I am willing to take up the challenge. To implement the MB principles. To clean up my side of the street. To become a better person. Since 2005, every day the answer has been "no". But I keep hoping that some day I will say "yes".

CWMI

In 2002 I joined MB. My wife and I were seeing a sex therapist at that time (2nd or 3rd time we had tried one, in addition to a number of marriage counsellors we had seen regularly over the previous 5 years). Her "program" claimed she could improve our sex life in 16 weeks. 16 weeks later we had done 1 of the weekly homework assigments because Mrs. Hold refused to do the rest. So I chose to stop seeing the sex therapist. This forum helped me deal with the frustration of the complete lack of participation on my wife's part to that process.

In 2003, after I had been participating in this forum very frequently for about a year, we decided to see a woman who had been trained by the Harleys in an attempt to implement the MB system. We talked to her for 2 years. Made zero progress. In May 2005 she fired us because it was obvious neither of us was willing to change enough to please the other. We can argue over who was more obstinate. But it was clear we were unable to make any progress as a couple.

Since then I have basically given up on improving myself or my marriage. I am just muddling through life. Part of me is waiting for the kids to leave home so I can make decisions free of the legal ramifications of divorcing with minor children living at home. Part of me is just hoping for a "magic wand" like hitting the lottery or getting hit by a bus so I won't have to take responsibility for making changes.

There are some signs within the past few months that Mrs. Hold might be more amenable to implementing the MB system in 2010 than she was 5 - 7 years ago. An MB weekend or counselling with the Harleys might actually work if we both got on board. But at this point I am too apathetic to do my part.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:17 PM
Hold, I think you are fantastic. And I DO admire you for coming back day after day in the hopes that some day your answer will be yes. That takes incredible honesty. When you're ready, you'll be ready. If you try to force it before you're ready, it probably wouldn't last anyway (I may get blasted for that one by the MB vets, but I believe it!).

I've also kept my posting to a minimum because of the pity party thing. Godd for both of us for trying to work on that.

As I said before, right now I'm focusing on giving to MYSELF the things I would desire from a spouse, to the extent I can.

One of the things I've learned in my 12 step work is that it is not ME who does the changing. It is God who changes me. The work I do is simply to make myself ready to be changed. This has been a huge weight off my shoulders. I was putting so much pressure on myself to change myself, which is not something I'm really able to do. That's not my side of the street. That's God's! When I stopped trying to be God and change myself, and instead put my focus on cultivating an attitude of willingness and readiness, I find it much easier to admire myself, even if I'm not yet totally willing today, or ready today.

Honesty is something worth admiring. Even if it's honesty about our less-then-stellar selves. Especially then. Give it to yourself, and accept it from those willing to give it to you. Hard to learn. Practice until it becomes easier. Say thank you and you're welcome until it becomes second nature and you actually mean it smile

((((Hold))))
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:22 PM
I don't have disdain for you. I would never discard you as unworthy of my time or attention. You can discard yourself all you want, but you can't make me do that, too. Unless you notify the mods. laugh
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:36 PM
Just to give you background:

We had problems from day 1 in 1992. I finally insisted on marriage counselling in 1997. We went every other week for years and made no progress. In 2001 I took a new job and moved the family to where we now live.

In 2002 I joined MB. My wife and I were seeing a sex therapist at that time (2nd or 3rd time we had tried one, in addition to a number of marriage counsellors we had seen regularly over the previous 5 years, but we only saw the other STs a couple of times because Mrs. Hold was not comfortable discussing sex). The ST's "program" claimed she could improve our sex life in 16 weeks. 16 weeks later we had done 1 of the weekly homework assigments because Mrs. Hold refused to do the rest. So I chose to stop seeing the ST. This forum helped me deal with the frustration of the complete lack of participation on my wife's part to that process.

In 2003, after I had been participating in this forum very frequently for about a year, we decided to see a woman who had been trained by the Harleys in an attempt to implement the MB system. We talked to her for 2 years. Made zero progress. In May 2005 she fired us because it was obvious neither of us was willing to change enough to please the other. We can argue over who was more obstinate. But it was clear we were unable to make any progress as a couple.

Since then I have basically given up on improving myself or my marriage. I am just muddling through life. Part of me is waiting for the kids to leave home so I can make decisions free of the legal ramifications of divorcing with minor children living at home. Part of me is just hoping for a "magic wand" like hitting the lottery or getting hit by a bus so I won't have to take responsibility for making changes.

There are some signs within the past few months that Mrs. Hold might be more amenable to implementing the MB system in 2010 than she was 5 - 7 years ago. An MB weekend or counselling with the Harleys might actually work if we both got on board. But at this point I am too apathetic to do my part.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:38 PM
I'm assuming you want to be hit by a bus so you can sue, and not so that you can end your life . . . When you can see it coming, duck!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 06:57 PM
I do say thank you. In fact, that was one part of the MB training that stuck. I often thank Mrs. Hold for sharing her views even when they are painful to hear. Initially she was openly sceptical of my sincerity. But over time I think she has accepted that I do want to know how she feels even when she isn't happy. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything differently. But at least I know where she stands and where I stand in her view.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 07:56 PM
Hold, my friend...

Stop using comments today to spiral down again. Ok, this morning was a step backward, so you're on the "three steps forward, one step back" part of your journey. That's ok. It's better than 1 step forward, 10 steps back, right?

"Dum spiro, spero." I won't insult your intelligence by reminding you of all the people who clung to hope, love, life, in the face of unfathomable adversity. I'll just remind you of some of your many blessings:

- You have two beautiful, healthy, intelligent, loving children.
- You have food to eat, clothes to wear, and a roof over your head.
- You are living in a place free from war and natural disasters (I think).
- You have a job, in this shaky economy.
- You are fairly healthy, as is your wife.
- Your wife hasn't forged your name or stolen your credit card or emptied out your retirement savings in quite some time.
- You have had more SF lately.

And reasons you can feel good about yourself:

- You are leading the formation of a men's group.
- You provide for your family. (YES YOU DO!!!)
- You are involved in your kids' lives.
- You have honored your marriage vows.
- You have continued to try to make a decent life with your wife. You may sound discouraged a lot of the time (and find me one person on MB who has tried as long as you have and isn't discouraged!) but you ARE still there, and you ARE still interacting with her, and you are even trying to interact in a positive way.
- You give her compliments and try to give her affection and admiration in whatever way you think she needs it.

Things are better this year than they were last year, right? Stop wishing for bad luck and knocking on wood.

For your amusement:

Just a cover, but it's fun watching the baby too!

Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 08:10 PM
I meant, say thank you when someone compliments you, blockhead smile
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 08:10 PM
That was a DJ, wasn't it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/10 09:04 PM
Jayne:

Yes, I have much to be thankful for. The past 2 nights Mrs. Hold let me apply pressure to tenacious knots in her shoulder!

And I liked the video. Song is only OK but the baby is cute.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 02:00 PM
Last night Mrs. Hold was complaining about how I am dealing with a problem at work. She thinks I am not being sufficiently forceful and proactive. I thanked her for sharing her feelings. After she went on a while, I told her that I was uncomfortable continuing the conversation. That I heard her but I was not going to implement her suggestions. I used the line from the song Jayne forwarded yesterday: "I is what I is and I aint what I aint. I am not the most forceful and aggressive person. I understand that quality holds me back at work. And it makes me less sexually desirable in your eyes. There is a limit on how much I can change myself, and I will have to learn to function in relation to those weaknesses." She agreed that she does not find that characteristic attractive.

I know, more "I can't / won't change" thinking. Which is why my marriage never improves.

I left the room and played video games until way too late. This morning Mrs. Hold woke me up to get ready for work. She apologized for criticizing me so harshly. She said "no one is perfect". I laughed and said "not even you?" She said "not even me".
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 04:14 PM
Hold, I don't think it's more "can't/won't" thinking. It is the beginning of self-acceptance.

I firmly believe that I cannont take action to change what will be until I learn to accept what is, and I can't accept what is unless I am willing to look at what drives me, my motivations.

Awareness first, then acceptance, THEN action.

Seek first to understand (myself), then be understood (by others).

Taking action first is not always the best course, because without awarenes and acceptance, I won't be able to sustain any changes anyway. Just spinning wheels and wasting time.

And our acceptance of ourselves is not conditional on someone else's acceptance of us.

I'm proud of you Hold . . . self-acceptance can be so hard, and you just experienced a little bit of it.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 04:48 PM
HOLD the nerve of her when she is too lazy to work. Tell her (as you have asked her many times) to get a full time job.

She can see what it is like out there. Sometimes people who do not work forget the politics of working for a living.

It is ignorant of her to tell you how to do your job.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 04:51 PM
NOW IS YOUR CHANCE, BECAUSE SHE COMPLAINED ABOUT YOU...TO ASK MRS HOLD TO GET A JOB!!!!

Today, tell her you thought about it and that she was right. You need to be more aggressive at work. Then, you realized that strength starts at home. You realized you need to be firmer at home in your own family. Because you realized that this is where the problem starts. And you realize if you are more powerful at home and work, she will be more attracted to you and this will be a win win for all. Thank her for reminding you of all this.

Ask her if she will support you in this "change" in YOU.

Then, tell her nicely that you would like her to get a full time job by June 15th.

Tell her also that you need to save money to pay off credit card debt by firing her housekeeper temporarily.

Then, ask her how she likes "the new you".

Tell her this will translate into you being braver and more assertive at work.

I think this quiet calm respectful assertiveness you can practice at home will carry over to work situations too.

What do you think, HOLD?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 05:00 PM
HOLD, you can also tell your wife (if she balks at the new job or the lack of a housekeeper) that if you cannot control your own household, if you have no choice in your own home then you definitely will have no control over others at work.

Does she want the courageous strong new you? Or not?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/13/10 05:01 PM
Think, I want to find out how it is going in your marriage? Have you quit yelling at your husband when he tries to communicate with you? I cannot forget that. You wanting communication from hom so badly and then when he does communicate, you shut him down in a hurtful way.

I am hoping you have resolved that. It bothers me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/17/10 02:15 PM
Nice day with Mrs. Hold yesterday. We went bra and bathing suit shopping. She needed new everything because she is so much smaller. She complained about certain body parts but I was thinking how great she looks compared to last summer or the summer before.

Gifts is definitely her love language.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/10 02:52 PM
Today Mrs. Hold came back from exercise class and said "I talked to a psychologist in the class who says I have body dysmorphia if I think I have 20 more pounds to lose because she thinks I look tiny." I agreed she has a warped view of how much she has left to lose. But I understand her fear of gaining it back and her desire to see how low she can go.

Later, Mrs. Hold said she needed a check for the dry cleaner because she only has one pair of nice pants that fit and we are going to services at temple tonight. I wrote out a check to the dry cleaner. In the memo line, I wrote "clean Mrs. Hold's nice pants that fit her tiny butt". She laughed.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/10 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Today Mrs. Hold came back from exercise class saying "I talked to

And she just stopped like that? lol.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/10 05:11 PM
Oops.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/19/10 03:49 PM
Had a nice session with Mrs. Hold this morning. Told her yesterday that I wanted some time with her after she put the kids on the bus this morning. She came back from dropping off S15 and dutifully marched into the bedroom. No scurrying to the kitchen and pretending she forgot. Kudos to her for being available. In the past she would freak out if I ever mentioned future intentions. So this is a welcome and pleasant change. I know I need to be on the lookout for those. And to admit positive change IS possible. So I am memorializing it here.

Also, she spoke during. Mostly, oooh, be careful of my sore neck and shoulder. Side note: she was available despite a sore neck and shoulder!!!!! But a few times she said "thanks" or "nice to hear" when I told her how much I enjoy being with her. This is a big improvement over silent and unmoving.

Hold here, desperately trying to shoo away the dark clouds hanging over eeyore.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/21/10 01:19 PM
Mrs. Hold kissed me on the way out the door this morning. Small gestures of Affection help alot.

I have no idea why things have changed between us. I have not been more attentive to her needs than before. But lately we are far closer to the marriage I always wanted than we ever have been.

I am trying hard to fight back the resentment and thinking "why did it take so long and why did I have to suffer so much and look how it has negatively affected my career and our finances (for which I bear much responsibility too)." We cannot reclaim the past. We can make a better future. Until the past few weeks, I did not believe that was possible. Now it seems it is. Amazing.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/21/10 06:40 PM
Wow. That's awsome. Good updates are wonderful to hear, and especially so when coming from you, Eeyore smile
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/21/10 07:09 PM
"We cannot reclaim the past. We can make a better future." I think I am going to make a little card with that on it and put it on my bathroom mirror. I needed that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/24/10 12:50 PM
We had a nice weekend (as usual mostly fpcused on kid events). D13's synchro team unexpectedly qualified for nationals. Which is a good thing. Even though our schedule and budget assumed they would NOT make it. Oh well, Mrs. Hold will now have to spend a week in Buffalo and see Niagra Falls.

S15 went to an open house for a local rowing club. Not sure how he can row on top of playing several school sports but he will give it a try over the summer and see if he likes it. Mrs. Hold went with him. They are now recruiting her to row (or maybe be a coxswain). I think it would be great if they could do it together. That would be an amazing mother-son experience.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/25/10 01:26 PM
This morning Mrs. Hold came back from dropping the kids at the bus and I was in bed. She looked at me. I said "sorry, Tuesday is not sex day." She looked at me quizzically. I continued "Wednesday is sex day. And Prince spaghetti day if you want that for dinner." She smiled. What a difference.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/25/10 04:24 PM
smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/10 01:12 PM
No session today. A tree fell on the power lines this morning and we had to drive the kids to school. I told Mrs. Hold I am sorry she got short changed today and maybe she can get lucky Friday if she treats me well between now and then.

We bought a new vacuum (got a great deal on Ebay). Mrs. Hold said she needed the extension hose so it would reach father. I said I understand ladies are always interested in having a longer hose available, and I would see what I could do. She looked at me like I was pond scum for making a sexual comment.

A couple of minutes later she came to me with her hand lotion bottle. The pump top was stuck. She said "since you are so good at pumping, I thought maybe you could fix the pumper on this." Wow! A double entendre and a sex-related compliment!

News flash: today's weather report for h3ll is snow showers followed by freezing rain.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/10 01:30 PM
Quote
News flash: today's weather report for h3ll is snow showers followed by freezing rain.

rotflmao

Yay!

Happy day, Hold.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/10 06:01 PM
Seize the moment - open a ski resort!

Get in before the competition. You'll make a killing.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/10 06:15 PM
thanks hold!! I just laughed so loudly that someone came into my room to see if I was okay. I'm supposed to be packing up my classroom.

Maybe that's the secret to me WANTING to do DS...just make it sound like SF
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/10 08:16 PM
ROFLMAO!

Luri, that was my turn for a coworker to peek in to see if I was seizing or something...

and COTF! I think you've planning that for a long time, when the time was right...yet...what, no pig airline planned to go with those resorts?

HOLD brings out the joyous in us, methinks.

LA
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/28/10 04:50 AM
Hmmm...pig airline...

DANG IT!!!

I can't believe I didn't think of that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/28/10 01:52 PM
No session today. I will have to set the alarm tomorrow.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/01/10 11:08 AM
Friday night I gave Mrs. Hold an article titled "Is Your Man Bad In Bed" which had 6 suggestions for helping your partner do a better job. I asked her to let me know if any of it applied to us.

Sunday morning Mrs. Hold admitted that nothing I do works for her. Not fun to hear, but not unexpected. I asked her what worked, and she said she didn't know. I said she should experiment and report back, since she can't teach me what works if she didn't know. She did not seem enthusiastic about experimenting. So I guess we will just continue fumbling in the dark. At least she is willing to allow me to continue fumbling.

And I recognize it was a big accomplishment on her part to admit I don't rock her world. Even more so to consent to sex despite it. Perhaps we can even work on makign it better for her.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/01/10 03:39 PM
Did she say "nothing YOU do works for me?" Did she say something anyone had done in the past HAD worked for her?

I'm glad you guys are making progress, but please realize, Hold--I do not think that it is your ability/inability. My guess is that your wife is turned on only rarely, and that she doesn't enjoy physical intimacy much at all... It's possible that even if she starts out feeling sort of aroused, that she doesn't really know how to ride the wave.

You could have all the techniques in the world, and be the most well-endowed man in the world, but if her head isn't in the right place sexually, it doesn't matter.

Having said that, there is a book that you might enjoy called "A Celebration of Sex". It is written from a Christian Perspective, but I don't think the spirituality aspect would offend you, my Jewish brother. :-)

It actually teaches a lot about sex, and I've bought it for a lot of myf friends. Many have foud it helpful.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 02:05 PM
She said nothing I do works for her. She said sometimes she had felt something in the past. But pretty much only when she was drunk or stoned. She said "there is something physically wrong with me and I need to see the doctor".

I replied "if you feel something when you are drunk, sound to me like the wiring is working to carry signals to your brain. Seems to me more likely that it is psychological. That your brain refuses to listen to the signals because it thinks sex is bad and wrong and not to be enjoyed. Except when you are drunk, and your brain can't clamp down tightly enough, or focus enough, so the signals leak through and you feel them."

She said "but how can it be psychological when I sometimes had sex with guys I didn't like".

I said "that was you trying to take control of your sexuality. To prove you could choose to do it when you chose. That you had a choice."

Amazing that she is finally sharing this with me. Not sure she is ready to do anything about it. But I feel she is finally sharing her true sexuality with me. Hurts to hear that she never feels anything with me. But better to hear the hurtful stuff than to be shut out.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 02:19 PM
Hold, I see this as a great step forward. Yes, the info isn't great and hurts you. But recognizing the problem is about 90% of the work of fixing it, right?

That said, I don't know the answer to her problem, but encourage you to continue listening and being supportive. That will keep the lines of communication open. If she feels you are on her team, then she sees you as part of the solution, NOT part of the problem.

In the past, when I've tried to share with my husband WHY I'm not hot for him 24/7 like it was when we were dating and in the early days of marriage, he has shut me down with things like "that's ridiculous, married people should always be hot for each other" or "that's just an excuse" or "now you're trying to make me feel guilty for not having a job and you being exhausted" or...fill in the blank.

So guess who has stopped talking and started just stewing in resentment over it? And guess which aspect of our life it has continued to affect?

Keep on keeping on Hold. She is LUCKY she's got you as a supportive and loving husband. Even if you don't see yourself that way.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 02:35 PM
Wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, marriage ends up bringing healing to both of you...

(I personally believe this is a big part of the point of marriage).

Does it hurt less to hear that her problems with sex have so little (if anything) to do with you? And don't you think it is really remarkable that she is talking to you about it?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Hold, I see this as a great step forward. Yes, the info isn't great and hurts you. But recognizing the problem is about 90% of the work of fixing it, right?

ME TOO! I am so encouraged by their recent progress in communication. Wow.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 05:17 PM
Thanks ladies. Yes, I realize it is great she feels safe enough to open up to me. I always knew a big part of our problem was not me. Part is me. But a big part would be anyone.

I am trying very hard not to get upset that she lied to the marriage counsellors and sex therapists in the past. That is done and gone, and we can't get those years back. It is good that she is admitting the truth now.

Not sure where that leaves us as far as what we do in future sessions until she discovers how to feel sensation. I do not want to develop bad habits of completely ignoring her. But at least now I can ask her and hope for a somewhat honest answer.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 05:26 PM
I am glad you are finally getting things out in the open. This should have been talked about 15 years ago. I am glad you finally found a creative way to speak to her about it. And that she is willing to start being honest.

I had to do the same with my husband, find creative ways to speak about sex.

Dont quit being open with her. You can bring out her sexual responses. It took a sensitive boyfriend to bring out my responses and show me how to orgasm.

If you could do that, you might be a hero in her eyes.

It would take good technique, experimentation, and being quiet (not wordy) during lovemaking. It is difficult sometimes for women to get to the big O if a man keeps asking them how it is or talks to them. IT really is distracting. Just BE QUIET AND USE GOOD TECHNIQUES and try and guess if she is enjoying it by her responses.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 05:59 PM
Actually, what I need to get her is to have a drink first. Which is difficult for two reasons. One, we almost uniformly have sex early in the morning (before kids get up or right after they get on school bus). I would be willing to change the timing. She not so much. Second, in her current weight loss mode she is not going to want to "waste" calories on this. I can ask.

No technique is going to work while her brain is "turning off the switch". She says she feels nothing. Not nothing good. No sensation at all.

To the extent that the doctor gives her a pill. That may help. Even if the pill does nothing. The placebo effect might get her brain to stop blocking / ignoring the sensations.

And yes, I have learned to be quiet during sex. I don't ask her how it is. Before, during or after. If I talk, I just focus on me. I like being here. This feels wonderful. I love being with you. Nothing about her. Nothing that would require her to form a response. Even that is quite limited because I fear saying something that might cause her to want to stop immediately (as you and other long timers know has happened). I would prefer to be more vocal and interactive. I have curbed my inclinations in respect of her reactions. I have a small penis, not a small brain.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 07:57 PM
This reminds me some of when I FINALLY went to the doctor and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. All those years that I just couldn't (insert wouldn't) do it. It was just too much to think about. The fact that she seems to be lowering her defenses about this is HUGE. I would be willing to bet that part of the problem with ignored response is ignoring it instead of dealing with it. I hope she is able to continue sharing this with you.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 09:39 PM
Baba:

I have given her articles about this before (teaching a guy not to be bad in bed). For some reason the timing now was right for her to respond to it.

I gave her the article Friday morning on my way out the door. "If any of this is relevant, let me know". Sunday we started having sex. I reached down to use my hand. She pushed my hand away and said something like "don't bother, I don't feel anything when you touch me". Part of the article was about not keeping silent and allowing the man to do things that don't work for the woman. I am guessing that this part of the article resonated with her when I reached over.

I am so glad she did.

P.S. I got the article from a listserv aimed at women. They e-mail a newsletter every day. I joined the listserv at the suggestion of someone here on MB. So whoever you are, thank you. It has taken a while but the listserv finally paid big dividends.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 10:26 PM
Well, if you depended on the alcohol in the morning...

you could say that you always thought she was lush...

:::ducking:::

Another idea...might be a repeat from years/months past...

You do non-verbal exercises.

You do touch at night (which you hold yourself to NOT leading to sex...that's for in the morning, 'k?)...

You do 10-minutes of head and neck massage...and she focuses on her breathing. You sit up at the headboard and she lays down on her back with her head in your lap...and you massage her face, head and neck...

You do 20 minutes...10 minutes lightest touch...the kind that gives you shivers...and 10 minutes normal massage.

The lighter the touch, the more she can accept sensation...

And the next night, you do the same, only with back, tummy and collarbone...

She closes her eyes and focuses on her breathing, be okay, safe, in the moment...and says whatever comes to mind...and if there are any questions...you don't answer, 'k?

Next night, feet, calves and thighs...

Rinse and repeat.

Usually this exercise is 10 and switch...you can do 20 and switch with her doing 10...how 'bout it?

She might want to take a pill...a couple of Ibruprofen's...I've heard on some they work nearly as sleep aids...relaxes them.

No calories.

Might also do soft candlelight and some ocean music sounds on the player...

In your own head, as you do this, you recall single snapshots of joyous moments with this woman, your wife, over the last 20 years...you hear her sing and laugh...see her excitement and hear her love for you...so that your light and heavier touch actually IS from love, gratitude and respect.

Don't you be thinkin' about the morning while you're doing this the night before.

smile

You work toward the area she says she can't feel...the don't bother...see if by the end of the week, there's a change. Feather touch...safety...acceptance...relaxing...might just be a substitute for wine.

Retraining our brain receptors through touch...what a way to go, eh?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/02/10 10:46 PM
LA:

Great ideas. I will suggest that. However, it sounds eerily similar to all the exercises the sex therapists assigned that Mrs. Hold refused to do. Things are different now. Perhaps she will consent to engaging in behaviors she previously rejected. I will ask and allow for the possibility of change.

Also, it is not like we currently have no non-sexual touch. We do in fact have substantial physical touch at night which is entirely non-sexual. I rub the knots in her shoulder. I lay my head on her thigh and she squeezes my ear. So we are doing some of this. More is always welcome. I have no trouble separating Affection from sexual touching. Remember, I am the touchy one in our couple. She is the one who more often rejects non-sexual touching. In our house, we refer to D13 and me as the puppies and Mrs. Hold and S15 as the cats because D13 and I like hugs and Mrs. Hold and S15 generally don't.

Just pointing out that this is not something we have never considered or attempted. As with most suggestions, BTDT. But we are new every day, right?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/03/10 01:54 PM
Yep, we are new every day.

smile

And this is more therapeutic than affection.

Has scientific basis to it...because of MrsHold's past experience, learning your body as a whole, as your own (instead of a constant boundary working against itself), and what sensation without agenda feels like, goes a long way to retraining the brain.

Tougher than it sounds for someone to accept non-sexual massage...and yes, it's really different from hugs and ear tugs.

smile

Slow feather touch is great for the capillaries, which helps circulation. Mentally it allows folks who are very sensitive to encroachment discern affection as separate.

And you can stay on one stage...just the head and shoulders...until she gives you the okay on the rest. Don't forget to switch, though...you puppy.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/03/10 03:28 PM
What you describes sounds intentional. That is, she is consciously trying to retrain her mind and body. I fear she is not yet prepared to participate in touching "with an agenda". Even if that agenda is helpful / positive / voluntary.

I don't think she is yet ready to discuss, much less consent to, "let's do some non-sexual touching and see how you feel". I think she wants to take a pill and see if she feels different. Sound like anyone you know?

Despite the way I have described it here, we are still much more in the drive by honesty phase as opposed to the interactive conversation stage. I don't get the feeling we are working together. I will suggest we do so. As you can imagine, I don't expect an affirmative response.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/03/10 03:41 PM
Quote
I don't expect

I'm repeating this because I'm trying to bash my own head in with a 2x4 trying to learn this lesson:

Expectations are just pre-meditated resentments.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 01:13 PM
Discouraging verbal interaction this morning. Then again, progress is not all in one direction. Keep eyes on big picture.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 04:31 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold and Mrs Hold and family!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 07:54 PM
Thanks Mark. Big religious weekend. Saturday is Bnai Mitzvah for twin kids of my wife's good friend from college. Sunday is our synagogue's Annual Meeting at which I, as Men's Club head, provide breakfast.

Then off to watch the US national lacrosse team play a group of college all-stars Sunday afternoon literally right down the street from us. S15 just started playing lacrosse this year so it works out nice that the national team is playing nearby just as the season has ended. Only $5 per ticket! On top of the US national soccer team playing a world cup warmup match 2 weeks ago (another sport S15 took up this year) about 40 minutes away, lots of high level events for us to go see despite living here in the woods!

Wishing everyone the best for the weekend.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 09:00 PM
We're still watching hockey in Chitown...grin
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 10:06 PM
Ah yes, go Hawks! Decades ago my uncle's PR company represented Stan Mikita. Went to some games at the old stadium. Who says it is better without poles blocking the view?
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/10 11:36 PM
Hold,

There was a program on the radio last week and they were discussing the Stadium versus the UC. People always talk about how loud things were in the Stadium, but according to empirical data, via sound pressure meters spread around the UC during the second round of the playoffs, the UC is actually louder than the old stadium.

Either one was a pretty cool place to watch hockey though the UC is much better for B'ball.

The Allstate Arena (Rosemont, IL) is a pretty cool venue for hockey. That is where the Wolves play home games (AHL). Also home of the Chicago Rush (Arena Football League) and the Sky (WNBA).

I attended a lot of concerts at the old Chicago Stadium. The last one was Grand Funk Railroad (later just Grand Funk) and the plaster was literally falling from the walls and ceiling from the level of the bass pounding away.

Folks around here almost forgot we even had a hockey team in the NHL. Games weren't even on TV for about 30 years. Now folks are painting their houses red and black and I saw several golf carts this morning with Indian heads on the fenders.

Watching the Hawks win is certainly a lot more fun than watching the Cubs, Sox, Bears and Bulls lose... This from Walter Jacobson, local TV news legend who admits to knowing nothing at all about hockey till about a month ago.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 02:10 PM
I would question the pressure readings from the old stadium. It was so much smaller, I can't imagine that roughly the same number of people didn't make a louder noise in such a more enclosed space. But I am no engineer.

Also, I can more easily imagine that the sound on he playing floor is louder in the UC (nothing blocks sound from reflecting off the roof back to the floor, and maybe even the round shape reflects more sound back toward the court / rink), but I would imagine in the upper deck of seats it was louder back when the overhang was 6 inches above your head!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 02:11 PM
Weekend was chock full of events, fun but tiring.

No relations between me and Mrs. Hold. She refused all Affection. The key is that life can be good even if things between me and Mrs. Hold are not what I wish they were.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Mark1952
We're still watching hockey in Chitown...grin

where!?!?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 04:10 PM
So your quote is a hockey reference, Hold?

smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 05:58 PM
Mrs. Hold still cringes most times when I reach for her for Affection. She may always do so. If she does, that puts an upper limit on how good our relationship will ever be for me. Serves me right for being a puppy who married a cat.

If I can do a better job of running the Men's Club, and have some additional male social activity, that should go a long way to ameliorating that pain. Getting old and not being as horny has made this significantly easier. I doubt we could have made any progress 10 years ago.

Not that we have really made any progress. She has not changed her behavior much. I have not learned much acceptance. I just can't summon the energy to complain as much.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 06:04 PM
We have a saying in alanon about finding contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. I personally like to apply this to life in general, because I find it so hopeful.

I can find happiness and contentment, regardless of what other people do or don't do. It is mine to find, not someone else's to give.

And having this shift in attitude has gone a long way to helping me become a more pleasant human being to be around. More attractive, too, or so I'm told.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/10 06:12 PM
In this case, I too am the alcoholic who is still drinking. Hard to make progress while you are not yet sober. I guess the analogy is that now that I am older I can't drink as much before I pass out. So I am drinking less. We still don't drink the same amount. But the difference has gone down.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/10/10 04:23 PM
Keep eyes on prize. Sex may be pointless (she claims to feel nothing) and never resolved, but she gave me a hug this morning. So did D13. Things could be much worse.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/11/10 03:09 PM
This morning we had what is for us a very long conversation about sex. Maybe 3 or 4 minutes.

Started by snuggling. I got up to go eat breakfast. As I rose, she thought I was moving in for sex and she threw up her arms to ward me off. I told her not to worry, I have no intention about having sex until we deal with her revelation. She followed me into the kitchen.

She spoke bitterly that she was sorry she admitted it. I said I was honored that she shared her truth with me. And I want to incorporate that truth into our relationship. And I am not yet sure how that works. And until we have a plan, I am not interested in having sex. We can still snuggle, with no risk that it will be "escalated" to sex.

She said she doesn't want to be microanalyzed. I said that is what I have been doing until now. Every movement and every moment during sex was, for me, carefully calculated in an attempt to find something that worked for her. From now on, I don't need to waste time and energy doing that. If nothing works for her, then I can ignore her reactions and just focus on me. She seemed dubious.

I said "for example, how about I pour chocolate sauce on you and lick it off. We previously rejected that because it doesn't do anything for you. But that rejection was based on the assumption that there was something else we could do instead that DOES do something for you. If nothing does anything for you, then maybe we should ressurect all the ideas I suggested in the past that got shot down because they don't turn you on. If they turn ME on, then maybe we should try them."

She still seemed dubious. I asked "what do you think about chocolate sauce?" She replied "I think you would like that."

There is still a cloud of doubt and negativity on her part. But I think this is worth trying. She apparently fears that it won't be successful. I agree, at least in part. At this point nothing we do is going to get us where I really want to go. Which is to have a responsive partner. But if we can't get there, maybe we can get somewhere that is better for both of us than where we are now.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/11/10 03:22 PM
Finding the truth is like gold. Whatever that truth is. Now you can work from there. There are 1000 ways to have sex. Even if at first, only one person enjoys it.

HOLD, I would start to research all about how to bring someone out of sexual stupor. Women need to "find out" what feels good and learn to eliminate the feelings that we are bad if we play with ourselves, etc. Pretend she is a virgin and does not yet know what she likes or what feels good.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/11/10 03:38 PM
Bubbles:

Thanks for the concern. I am not motivated to explore what will make it good for her. She doesn't want to be analyzed. I don't want to be rejected. A process of discovery requires 2 participants to be successful.

I am much more enthusiastic about making it explicit that sex is only for me. Something she does to "humor" me. Even if that means it will be very infrequent. To me, that reduces the performance anxiety for both of us. She doesn't have to pretend she feels something. I don't have to try and fail to please her.

Perhaps if we focus on me for a while, sex can become more fun and playful and less of a slog through a fog bound swamp on a cold rainy day. If it becomes fun and playful, maybe she will eventually be motivated to play too. At that point, I would be happy to indulge her in whatever game she wishes to play. Not that I expect her to feel any sensation even when she plays. But she might find some games more fun than others, even if none of them provide any stimulation.

For now, to the extent we have sex at all, I think it has to be about making it safe for her to have no reaction. Showing that I accept her even if she feels nothing and wants nothing for herself. That doesn't mean I will be pleased if we don't have any sex. But I will be graceful in accepting her consent without asking her to provide any particular response.

Note that my response above depends in large part on my continuing belief that all of her sexual issues stem from PTSD from the rapes. Hence I tend to reject suggestions aimed at helping her enjoy sex other than "she gets therapy to deal with the PTSD". I do not believe that there is ANYTHING we can do sexually that will enable her to enjoy sex unless and until she deals with her PTSD. I don't see her agreeing to do that while we remain married. So I don't see this problem ever being resolved. All of this talking is about me dealing with a chronic condition that will never be "cured". Posting here is how I deal with the fact that it is incurable.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/11/10 06:44 PM
Hold, I think you might be on to something. Take the pressure off of her and you are released from it as well.

As long as you are truly enthusiastic about this (as is she) and there is no hidden agenda, then you might as well try this approach, right?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/12/10 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Hold, I think you might be on to something. Take the pressure off of her and you are released from it as well.

As long as you are truly enthusiastic about this (as is she) and there is no hidden agenda, then you might as well try this approach, right?

I agree with OH. This is a brilliant way to deal with this situation.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 01:42 PM
My fear of rejection remains a huge impediment. Since she threw up her hands to ward me off, I have not made any move toward her. Not for sex. Not for snuggling. Not for anything in the bedroom (I have held my arms out for hugs outside the bedroom). And of course, she would rather die than reach out for me in the bedroom. So if I do not make a move and risk rejection, we don't touch.

Great theory - try and make sex more playful. But that requires us to have sex. Frequently enough that we can try several different things. And one failure is no big deal in the total scheme.

At this point, I am not motivated to attempt to have sex at all. I am too afraid of rejection and failure. So I'll just take care of myself. And seethe inside. At me for being such a scaredy cat. And at her for not making things easier for me by giving me clear "go" signals.

I wish we could talk about this. Plan out what we should try. When would be a good time. I may have to make a move just to get rejected so I can insist we talk about it. She seems more open to talking right after she rejects me. Of course, neither of us is in a calm respectful mood at that time. We do not implement the Policy of Safety. And everyone says not to talk about sex in bed. But if I ask her outside the bedroom at a time when sex is not on the agenda, she says she doesn't want to talk about it.

I will simply have to be less of a wimp and insist we talk about it. I hate not being a wimp almost as much as I hate being a wimp.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 02:03 PM
Why don't you write up a proposal for sex?

Give her some ideas of a schedule for when you would like to have it... make it sort of contractual.

When things were at their worst with me and H, that is how we POJA'd affection--something he did not feel he could offer me at that time.

We literally came up with a list of things that were acceptable and things that were not. How often we expected them to happen, etc.

In your case, perhaps you could propose 2 x per week on such and such a days at such and such a time.

Just an idea.

At the same time, she HAS been more flirtatious with you sexually over the last few months, and has seemed to enjoy that at times.

Do you have to stop that? It seemed fun for both of you...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 02:54 PM
2x per week? On a regular basis? We hardly ever have sex 2x in one week. And there is always a multi-month hiatus after that "event". No, best we get to is 1x per week for 2 or 3 weeks. Then something happens to interrupt. And we fall away for weeks.

I would love to schedule our sessions. I would be thrilled to trade my abilit to initiate at any time for certainty that something will happen at the scheduled time. She adamantly refuses to schedule sex. In her mind, scheduling eliminates her veto power. Or creates additional guilt over saying no. She does not want any encumbrances on her turning me down. Understandable given her history. But makes a solution more difficult to achieve. Unlike some people with low libido, she does not view a schedule as freedom. She doesn't view it as removing pressure (because there is agreement there will be no sex at unscheduled times). She views it only as a restriction on her ability to exercise her veto. And her veto must be inviolate.

"It seemed fun for both of you."
Emphasis on "seemed". Remember, this was the 3 weeks immediately preceeding her pushing my hand away. Somehow, I doubt it was fun for her. After all, she mostly just lies there silent and unmoving. I have no idea how it is for her. And this last time, she stated she doesn't feel anything. So how am I supposed to conclude it was "fun" for her? And I got the "please let me sleep" pre-emption when I climbed into bed last night. So even if I had been in the mood to initiate, it was a no go.

I would love to discuss what might be fun for her. I am willing to explore this even though I believe the only honest answer would be "sex with someone else". I am willing to try pretty much whatever she asks for. Other than "you keep asking and I turn you down often but sometimes I say yes". I am willing to be her plaything. But not her punching bag.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 04:39 PM
I also think it's a good idea to give up on trying to microanalyze and find a way to make it good for her, but this caught my eye:

"After all, she mostly just lies there silent and unmoving."

A long time ago I read in some magazine of my sister's, that sex is really good if both participants are (to some extent at least) a little "selfish". Not that one person gets satisfaction at the other's expense, but that each person takes responsibility for their own satisfaction... takes the pressure off the other person. You don't have to guess at what the other person will like, they are guiding things in the way they like, and vice versa.

I like sex but I doubt I'd enjoy it much if I were just lying there silent and unmoving. When/if y'all are ever trying again to have her enjoy sex, she might want to take some initiative in doing things that will bring her pleasure. I'm not sure why it's all up to you. You've certainly put forth the effort. Not your fault if she's bound* and determined to not enjoy it.

*No pun intended!!! lol
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 04:57 PM
Jayne, we have discussed that she should take more responsibility for her enjoyment. That she should explore what she likes. And communicate that to me. She refuses to embark on that journey. I think I understand why not.

This is where I believe her past experience restricts her. I think she is deathly afraid of enjoying sex. I think it terrifies her to imagine feeling pleasurable sensation. This would call into question her core identity.

If I enjoy it, will I be able to say no? If not, have I given too much power over to my husband? Can I tolerate him knowing how much I like it? How can I be sure I will retain the veto power if I can't resist the pleasant sensations? Will I be able to resist temptation if I allow myself to enjoy sex? I know there are men out there who have better bodies and are larger and last longer than my husband. How will I resist them once I give myself over to the pleasures of the flesh?

I think that these issues terrify her. To avoid dealing with them (and they are admittedly "big" issues), her mind refuses to "listen" to the signals coming from her body. I can't imagine what would motivate her to let those signals through and force herself to face her fears.

For example, my wife has admitted she does feel sensation and does enjoy sex when she is drunk or stoned. Leaving aside the legality, she steadfastly avoids becoming drunk or stoned. Why? Because she fears becoming an addict. She doesn't trust herself to be able to control her use, so she refrains from any use. I think she has the same fear about sex. If she allowed herself to enjoy it, she would do it all the time. Which would be bad (even with her husband), because it reflects a loss of control. And given her past experience, control is paramount.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 05:06 PM
So can you set aside ONE night a week where you get her drunk?

LOL

Seriously though. I know the caloric factor is an issue. What's the fastest way to get there with the least amount of calories. Can she plan for this the way she would if she had an event coming up, like a wedding or big party, where she (like most successful dieters, I assume)would "reserve" some calories for the day or two beforehand to make up for the indulgence during the event?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by OurHouse
Seriously though. I know the caloric factor is an issue. What's the fastest way to get there with the least amount of calories. Can she plan for this the way she would if she had an event coming up, like a wedding or big party, where she (like most successful dieters, I assume)would "reserve" some calories for the day or two beforehand to make up for the indulgence during the event?

Is it theoretically possible? Yes. Will she consider actually doing it? No way. Why not? Because this would merely reinforce the problem with scheduling. She would be giving up even more control. Now, not only has she agreed in advance to have sex at a particular time whether she is in the mood or not, she has changed her eating habits to make "room" for alcohol. Now she is even more obliged to have sex at the scheduled time, not only to me, but to herself. Because otherwise she has denied herself calories / points "for nothing". It is not like she is going to say "well, I turned down the alcohol because I wanted to turn down the sex, so now I am going to have some cookies". That would make it only too clear how averse she is to sex with me.

What, you want her to be open and honest how she feels about sex? And about sex with me? No way. She fears my filing for divorce as much as I fear her doing so. Hence we live in this fantasy-land where she does not admit how much she hates sex with me and I don't admit how much I hate her continued rejection (not that I haven't told her this many times, but I don't remind her every time the feeling arises - which of course is every waking moment). Because if either of us admitted the truth, the other would be hard pressed to justify not divorcing. Which neither of us wants to do.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate all the suggestions. I will suggest scheduling sessions so we can both relax in between. I will suggest she save points for alcohol on schedule days. I will ask her to suggest what works for her. And I will suggest ways for us to be playful and see if there are any she is enthusiastic about. If I am done trying, then I should be done complaining. So I guess I have to keep trying.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 06:50 PM
Thinking, thinking... ... ...

Ok, alcohol has calories, and pot is illegal plus is a gateway to more calories...

I can think of two ways of using Cool-Whip that don't involve consumption of calories on her part. One is for you to put the Cool-Whip on her, and you consume it. The other might generate similar lowered inhibitions as drinking or pot, if she inhales...

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to talk you out of your resolve to stop trying. These suggestions sound fun though, and maybe some day you can use them...
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 06:56 PM
Quote
pot is illegal plus is a gateway to more calories...

rotflmao

And just how would YOU know that, Miss Jayne?

rotflmao
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 06:57 PM
back in the boat with you holding. W yet again pulled the wool over my eyes, back to the drawing board... at this point I'm ok satisfying myself into the forseeable future. M is a joke
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 07:09 PM
Jayne, it is not that I have resolved to stop trying. It is that, as usual, my fear is interfering with my intentions.

As for the Cool-Whip, read back a few pages. My first suggestion in the "playful" category was for me to lick chocolate sauce off of her naked body. Her response "yes, I imagine YOU would enjoy that", said in a disdainful tone, did not auger well for POJAing that behavior. But I will make another Thoughtful Request and not DJ her by assuming a negative response. And yes, I am aware of the multiple uses to which a pressurized can of Reddi-Whip can be put.

I don't think the calories are the main issue. They are a convenient excuse. The main issue is not agreeing in advance. Which places constraint on her veto. She can still say no at the last minute. But she knows she would "owe" me if she did. And she hates the idea of "owing" me sex.

I can remember very early in our marriage. I would do something helpful. And she would resent me for it. Initially I was confused why she reacted that way. Eventually I realized that she hated the idea of giving me credit for anything I did for her. Because she feared if she gave me "chips", I might want to turn them in for sex. And she hated that idea. So she refused to give me "chips" in order to short-circuit what she feared I might do with them. I asked her about that. She thought I was probably correct. I don't remember if we had kids yet when we had that discussion. If not, I should have divorced her that afternoon. Would have saved both of us a boatload of pain.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 07:25 PM
Hold, in all of your analyzing I think you may not have considered fully what an absolute turn off it is for a woman like your W to know her H is CONSTANTLY wanting sex. She knows she falls short and on some level she knows it is her issues that are preventing both of you from having a sex life you like. I believe she is fully aware of your constant desire for sex and it is always in the air between you. There is never a moment where that unspoken need of yours is not part of your interactions with her.

I have not words of wisdom, you guys have serious problems regarding sex and other priorities in your marriage, but oh what a relief it would be for Mrs. H to know that you really and truly don't have sex first and foremost on your mind. Imagine being able to relax with her without having the tension of sex hanging there.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 07:57 PM
I know. Unfortunately: Never. Going. To. Happen.

I feel sorry for both of us. At times I think if I had more compassion I would divorce her. Because I can't see her ever meeting my need. And I can't see myself ever forgiving her if she doesn't.

No, I can't imagine being able to relax with her. The tension is always hanging there. I feel like an insecure teenager. Which in many ways, I have never stopped being. And which I know is an enormous turn off for her.

That is one reason I spend so much less time with her these days. The tension when we are together is too thick. I can hardly breath. Her too. She frequently tells me to back off because she needs air.

This is no way to live. Sorta like democracy. The worst choice. Except for all the alternatives.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by nams
Hold, in all of your analyzing I think you may not have considered fully what an absolute turn off it is for a woman like your W to know her H is CONSTANTLY wanting sex. She knows she falls short and on some level she knows it is her issues that are preventing both of you from having a sex life you like. I believe she is fully aware of your constant desire for sex and it is always in the air between you. There is never a moment where that unspoken need of yours is not part of your interactions with her.

I have not words of wisdom, you guys have serious problems regarding sex and other priorities in your marriage, but oh what a relief it would be for Mrs. H to know that you really and truly don't have sex first and foremost on your mind. Imagine being able to relax with her without having the tension of sex hanging there.

I'm not Mrs. Hold and it sounds as though there are other issues, but if I were Mrs. Hold, and I decided to try to meet my husband's EN for SF, my biggest fear would be this...that he would constantly be after me for SF and if my desire were naturally quite a bit lower...even if 2x/week were ok for Mrs Hold, resentment would creep in for Hold and they'd be back to where they started.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:17 PM
Maybe that was a concern years ago. Lately I have backed waaaayyyyy off. I never initiate more than once a week. If events get in the way so we do not have a morning alone together without the kids, then I don't initiate at all. Mrs. Hold may have any number of fears, but it is not reasonable for her to fear that I would "push things" and ask for more sex than she has agreed to offer. Not that fears are rational.

On the other hand, nams point is well taken. It would be reasonable for Mrs. Hold to fear that the maximum frequency she can sustain would not be "enough", and the tension would still hang in the air between us. That is quite possible. While I suspect that even once a week would be "enough", and that the tension would dissipate once I got comfortable that sex would reliably occur, I cannot promise her that result because we have never been close to that. So I have no idea how I would feel after several months of regular sex. And the absence of certainty might prevent her from being enthusiastic about trying.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:28 PM
Ok, call this a wild and crazy idea then.

Can you put forth a 'deal' of sorts that has a time limit where at the end of such time, she has the opportunity to withdraw and/or renegotiate?

For instance: you agree to sex 1x/week. (or 2...). And you agree that you will have sex 1x/week for....4 weeks? 6 weeks? 8 weeks? whatever time frame you think is reasonable.

At the end of that time frame, if she still feels pressured, as in she thinks you are still judging her for not providing enough sex and that even a reliable 1 or 2/week will NOT be enough for you, then she can elect to go back to the status quo.

You could also throw in that she is not obligated to enjoy it..that it is for you, though if she felt the inclination to enjoy it, you would certainly welcome it.

You could call yourselves the great Holding experiment!

But the two of you would have to agree UP FRONT to be very, very honest in the evaluation. If you feel that enough tension has dissapaited that you are ok with 1 or 2/week then you tell her that. If you honestly feel you are still way deficient and not getting this need met, then she has the right to just go back to her corner.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:32 PM
Great idea. I will propose that. This is similar to what our MB-trained coach tried to get us to agree to years ago. Well, we did agree. Mrs. Hold never complied.

But this is a new decade and new year and new day. So maybe Mrs. Hold is more enthusiastic about such an agreement now. I will ask her.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:34 PM
YAY!

I hope Mrs. Hold agrees.

Present it very gently.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 08:36 PM
Hold, there has to be a living, breathing, loving person somewhere in there with Mrs. Hold. You have said many times that she is a wonderful mother..caring, great with the kids, etc. If she were truly shut down, she'd be a very emotionally distanced mother, too.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 09:19 PM
She is not shut down to them. She is shut down to me. She loves me. She fears intimacy more. We are very alike, she and I. We just fear different things.

I try to think of it as a scared child hiding in the corner. Helps me feel some compassion. Not enough to overcome my resentment. But some. Makes it worth continuing to try.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 09:28 PM
I'm sorry you're having difficulty, hold. It probably would be good in theory if the desire for SF wasn't always in the air. Just like it would be nice if after not eating for weeks the desire for food wasn't on your mind either. Not how it works.

Hold, I am not bashing anything about your W, I do not know her and she seems to have many good qualities. It's really more of a t/j. A general question to whomever.

Is there anyone out there who really honestly though sex WOULDN'T be a regular part of the equation in M? I'm not trying to be insensitive here, but if someone doesn't want to have regular sex....why did they marry? I mean, I know people have love, admiration, companionship, etc. But honestly, I could hug a best friend. I could have deep talks with a sister. If someone doesn't want to actively share a bed with someone, and they know that that someone DOES want to actively share a bed....why did they marry that person? All this I hear about "my spouse just won't keep their hands off me" or "I tried not to wake spouse up when I came to bed so they wouldn't ask for that". Why in the name of heaven do people who don't want to have sex get married? That's like me applying for, interviewing for, and accepting a teaching job and then telling the principal I don't want to go to school.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/14/10 10:07 PM
To defend my wife, I don't think she realized this about herself. Not fully. I get the impression she was somewhat promiscuous before we met. Not as bad as some of her friends. But I think she consented to sex fairly frequently in order to prove to herself that she was "over" her past. That she was in possession of her sexuality.

I think she sorta kinda knew I wasn't that physically attractive to her, but I was smart and funny (which she finds attractive), and she figured I would make lots of money and she would deal with the sex to get what she wanted. What went wrong?

A couple of things. First, she did not expect to have such trouble with emotional intimacy. Although she would not admit this for years, she recently admitted she "freaked out" during our honeymoon. It suddenly hit her that we were married, and I would be there every morning for the rest of our lives, and that I expected sex on a regular basis. Sex began to terrify her in a way it had not before the wedding.

Second, we moved to a different state. So we were away from our long time friends and "alone" together. More freak out from too much intimacy.

Third, as a result of my move I made less money and worked fewer hours. Less money. More time together. Ack, must flee!!!

And of course, the more I pushed for sex, the more she withdrew.

I don't think she consciously planned to deceive me. I think she knew she would have to manufacture desire to some extent, and she thought she could. I think she was surprised when she couldn't. And then all the internal and external pressure to stay married kicked in.

Back then divorce did not seem like a permitted choice. Both our parents are still married after around 50 years. Even 20 years ago we could not conceive of getting divorced. And we were both in our 30s (well, she was 29 when we got married), so we wanted to get started on having kids. We did. And then we both felt even more stuck.

So while I think she knew she wasn't all that hot for me, I don't think she knew how difficult it would be for her to consent again and again and again. Which, when I phrase it that way, makes it hard to understand why I haven't given up yet.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/16/10 02:50 PM
Last night I asked if it was OK for me to touch her elbow when we got in bed. We have a joke about how I am sooo turned on by her bony elbow. Since it is such a contrast to all the soft curvy parts.

She said it was OK. I told her I wanted to do more than touch her elbow. Not sex. But something fun and playful. So that being in our bed was not so boring and serious.

It was very late so I rolled over and went to sleep. I wasn't looking to do anything else last night. I fell asleep touching her elbow. She rarely allows me to fall asleep while touching her (she "needs her space"), so that was a nice treat.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/16/10 03:14 PM
You seem to have a pretty keen insight into your wife's fear of intimacy. Not all men pay that much attention. I know you have said before that your wife couldn't bring herself to honestly work MB. Probably because of that fear. I have to say that that is a lot easier for me to wrap my brain around than the idea of using MB to "legitimately" avoid SF. I have no compassion or understanding when I see that because it is the OPPOSITE of what MB is about.

I do hope that your W's walls come down
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/16/10 03:50 PM
I only have this insight after much reading and pondering. Mrs. Hold first admitted to being raped after 2 years of marriage counselling. To me, this was a huge breakthrough. Finally, a reason why she displays no interest in sex. I read everything I could find about rape and being the partner of a recovering victim. This caused me to be very hopeful, since she seemed to be a textbook case and hence could presumably be helped with "standard" counselling. I foolishly assumed that, having taken the huge step of admitting to what happened in the past, the she would commence to deal with it.

Silly me, why should she do that? Any more than I have dealt with my past hurts. She continues to claim that her past has nothing to do with our sex life. Which caused me to do further reading to confirm that this is also a very typical reaction. Not helpful. But common.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/17/10 02:07 PM
Mrs. Hold looked particularly chisled this morning. Her upper arms look very muscular. I don't like that look. Never have. We have a friend who is very cut and I asked Mrs. Hold months ago please do not end up looking like her. Funny how I didn't like her so heavy in the past but I prefer too heavy to too muscular.

I was not open and honest this morning. I told her she looked good and it was quite an accomplishment and she should be proud of herself.

Inside, I figure it is good if I don't like how she looks. Makes it easier to keep from making moves on her. The more she goes from soft and curvy to hard and bony, the less I like it. For now, I will keep that to myself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 02:16 PM
This morning Mrs. Hold wished me a good day as she was leaving for her workout. I was coming out of the shower. I told her she is beautiful and sexy. And that makes it painful to be near her in the bedroom. So I flee to the kitchen where I can play video games and ignore her. While we were talking, she noticed the tent growing under the towel. Then she left to go to her workout. I guess I don't mind bony and cut as much as I thought.

See, it is best to just stay depressed. I am going to end up there anyway.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 04:40 PM
Again with the sexual expectation...how that must suck for the two of you. You certainly have a loop running through your head don't you, Hold?

I don't often feel sorry for your wife, but to constantly have the idea of sex hanging between you, to know that any move she makes can somehow be related to sex must only intensify her insecurity and unwillingness to deal with her issues.

What an awful treadmill you both ride.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 05:52 PM
Yes, it is.

Mrs. Hold called. She offered to take S15 to basketball practice if that allowed me to leave work in time to relax and have a swim at the pool this evening (it is sunny and warm here today). She mentioned her intention to another woman during her workout. The other woman said "you don't have to be so nice to them, you know". Mrs. Hold replied "I like my lifestyle. He works hard. So I try to do something nice for him when I can. Your husband works hard too. He just paid to renovate your kitchen. He pays for your kids to go to summer camp. You have the summer free to do whatever you want. Doesn't he deserve something?" The woman replied "I don't see it that way".

Mrs. Hold said to me "she is not alone in thinking that way. See how lucky you are to have me?" I replied "I never liked her, and I am well aware of what the women in this area are like, and why I choose to stay with you."

Yes, it stinks. I have a loop. And the treadmill is awful. Which doesn't mean that getting off would be better.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 06:07 PM
I like how you lie to yourself, right out in the open.

The way you try to manage your emotions through deception...chiseled and bony.

When really, your wife, acting from love, turns you on...and you speaking honestly, too, maybe.

Trying to turn yourself off of her and using her to do it...

And her asking for your appreciation and admiration...and you not giving it to her...cutting her off...

just like you see her cutting you off.

Yes, you are lucky.

Yes, she is lucky.

Yes, you lie. Interesting the way you do it, too.

Maybe she's stopped lying. She's asking for you to meet her EN and you refuse. Because she's not meeting yours (though she has).

What do you think? Close? Interesting?

That whole conversation wasn't about other wives...it was her saying how she sees herself loving you, and the way she doesn't want to act towards you...

So remember that when you lie, again, to yourself and say she doesn't think you earn enough, aren't successful, that you suck at life...

because she loves her lifestyle and attributes to you providing it for her...and she appreciates you, as husband and family man.

Even when you tell yourself she doesn't...and sometimes, she doesn't act from appreciation, admiration and awareness...

and sometimes, she's asking for the same and you deny her in the same way you see her denying you...

I think your wife is going first...and you are refusing to follow.

LA

PS--did you ever get the answer of what you did that was so bad to deserve constant, consistent punishment of yourself? I forget...
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 06:41 PM
Chilling, LA.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
and sometimes, she's asking for the same and you deny her in the same way you see her denying you...

Of course. Isn't that the point? To pay her back, in full measure, for my deprivation? What else is there? it is my goal. My God. My life.

Quote
I think your wife is going first...and you are refusing to follow.

Perhaps. My wife has a need for Admiration. Nothing wrong with that. Many / most of us do. I can admire the way she is with the kids. Her friends. Whatever work or volunteer positions she takes on. She has many admirable characteristics. I praise her for them often.

But if she wants Admiration for being a good wife. She will have to seek it elsewhere. I am not going to give her one iota of Admiration for being a good wife. Unless and until our sex life is far better than it is, or has ever been.

In part, this is of course a reaction to my view of my status as a husband. I see myself as an abysmal failure. And hence refuse to give her any credit for being a good wife. How can I? If I admit that she is a good wife, while I am a poor husband, then how can I maintain the fiction that this is all her fault and I am justified in refusing to change?

Quote
PS--did you ever get the answer of what you did that was so bad to deserve constant, consistent punishment of yourself? I forget...

Not what I did. What I am doing. Every day. Being lazy. Unambitious. Giving in to my weakness. Accepting less than my best. The punishment never ends. Because the crime in ongoing.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 09:07 PM
I think what you are doing every day (and not doing) is how you punish yourself for something. I think your weakness is not your weakness. I think that's another lie to self.

And you did the all...the good wife...instead of just that one thing...not going along with the influence of other wives...saying "no" to that wife's point of view and having her own...

and her bravery in sharing it with you...

and then covering up that bravery by asking for you to give her one atta girl...just for that.

Not the all...or nothing.

You are not lazy...you work hard on punishing yourself and others.

I agree about accepting less than your best...rather, I agree you reject your best self a lot.

Her being good doesn't make you bad. Just as you being bad doesn't make her better. Though that is really worth sharing with her, isn't it? Good information she doesn't have.

You know you can stop justifying your refusal to choose differently...when you choose to stop justifying anything.

You already know this...you won't give yourself permission to be great and experiencing yourself as great. So you won't give her permission, either.

Both are criminal...and punishing yourself hasn't been redeeming. You have another payoff at play.

When you haven't determined what you need most for your wife's redemption of her crimes, how can you determine your own?

And yet you punish anyway...in between the bouts of loving statements, intimate sharing, and acts of love which are as constant, Hold.

And you do them. And so does she. Not all or nothing.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 09:16 PM
She just called and asked for another atta boy on being a good wife. She said she enjoys doing the little things to make me happy. I bit my tongue and told her I appreciate her for doing the little things. I swallowed the bile. I resisted the temptation to say "I don't give a flying watusi about the little things. I want more sex!" I resisted the urge to exclaim sarcastically "what alternate universe of denial are you living in that you think giving me the opportunity to go for a swim makes me happy?"

Is that bad or good? Meeting her EN? Not being radically Honest? True? False?

Until I know who I am and what I want, there are no answers.
Posted By: thinkinitthru66 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 09:40 PM
Hold, it sounds like you're in a really bad place today. That sucks. But it passes, if you don't feed it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I think what you are doing every day (and not doing) is how you punish yourself for something.

No. What I am doing and not doing is creating in reality how I think about myself inside my head. I think I am a pathetic loser. So I behave in ways that make that true.

If I thought I were fabulous and admirable, I would behave that way to make that into reality. My subconscious makes sure that my reality reflects my inner beliefs. I am not punishing myself. I am actualizing myself.

My self-image cannot tolerate the stress created when reality fails to match my inner vision. For similar reasons, I am required to reject Mrs. Hold when she reaches out to me in love. I cannot tolerate her being a "good wife". Since my mental image says she is bad and wrong for denying me sex. So I reject her. She naturally reacts negatively to being rejected. And then I use her negative reaction to justify my mental image of her being a bad wife. Thus making my thoughts into reality, and eliminating the stress of inconsistency.

As you say, my wife is "going first". She is asserting that I have value. That I have achieved success in providing her with the lifestyle she wants. Since I do not believe this, I reject her assertions as being false. Instead of welcoming them and using them as evidence that perhaps I should change my view of myself. After all, if someone as demanding as Mrs. Hold is prepared to admit I have not failed at supporting her, who am I to argue with her? Yet, I do.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 10:12 PM
I can't imagine you would be happy no matter how much sex your wife provided, Hold. Forget the analyzing. From what you post here it seems as though you have a negative self image and you cling to it. No amount of good towards you from others seems to mean anything to you.

I'm sure you know that there are many more people in this world and in your small corner who have much less to be happy about in there lives.

Get the shock treatments, maybe it will create new pathways for positive thoughts and actions. I believe you will come back with an analysis of how your path is determined and there is no hope because your reluctance to change. I think you're simply wired for the situation you're in and different circumstances or a fully engaged sex loving partner won't change that.

There are people in this world who love/get off on drama, upset, stirring the pot, pitting one against another, complaining, being put upon, unhappy, blaming others, blaming their parents and upbrining...so many things. You appear to be one of those. The grove is there, the path is set, the donkey with binders, what have you, you're there.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/18/10 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by nams
Get the shock treatments, maybe it will create new pathways for positive thoughts and actions.

See, I knew if I posted here long enough, I could eventually convince someone that I really do need ECT. Thanks nam. Everyone else keeps telling me to just suck it up and choose happiness. I can't do that any more than Mrs. Hold can suck it up and enjoy sex with me.

I tore an ad out of the paper for the local hospital's mood clinic. I will call Monday.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/19/10 01:01 AM
My mom has a saying, and even with all her faults, I believe she was spot on:

Just because it is in your head doesn't mean you HAVE to say it out loud.

So yes, when you bit the bile and appreciated your wife....I think you did exactly the right thing.

I grew up in a "good but" house. "That was good, but..." "You did a good job. Next time why don't you...." "The was almost right." I know there was truth in the but, the next time, and the almost. But it hurt. Wasn't there a time when they could say, That was great. Period. No but. No negative.

I am all for sharing feelings and being "honest." But does my DH really have to know when he is already stressed that while I am glad he did the laundry, that isn't how I usually fold the towels? If I am having a crap day and wondering (just for a nanosecond) if maybe it was dumb to break my engagement to that other guy - which happened BEFORE we started dating - because they other guy seemed more attracted to me? I mean, really. It was a fleeting thought. I am sure that the other day when DH saw me trying valiantly to wear a pair of jeans that no longer fit, he had to have had a thought about my weight gain. I am glad he did not feel compelled by some supposed need for brutal honesty to say something....because I already felt like a fat failure.

So, if there is any objective truth in expressing a positive, I don't think it's always necessary to qualify it with a negative. Psychological studies out the wazoo tell us it takes 10-13 positive comments/expressions to balance out one negative. Yeah, we have to share the painful stuff too....but not every tiny thought that pops into our heads. There's a reason some kinds of honesty are called brutal.

MAN it felt good to type that.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/19/10 01:28 AM
I still think before you shoot your head with electricity, you should try an in-treatment program.

But that's just me. You obviously don't want to do it, because I've been suggesting this to you for years.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/19/10 02:07 AM
I know how unkind my words sound, Hold, but I truly believe you thrive in, or at least feel comfortable inhabiting, the environment you're in. The upset, the tension, looking for all the wrongs and how unsuitable or suitable you and your wife are. Maybe life is dull and the mental games are a way to keep yourself entertained.

You're the guy banging his head against the wall and people expect you to stop and discover it doesn't hurt when you stop repeatedly banging your head against the wall. But if you stop I bet you wonder if there is anything that will keep you occupied quite like the head banging does and the analyzing that goes along with it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/21/10 01:34 PM
Yesterday started bad and ended up good. Mrs. Hold was much of the good part. And no we did not have sex.

S15's team had a basketball game. Why they scheduled an all-day event on Father's Day is beyond me. Anyway, alarm rings at 6:45, we are at the gym at 7:45 for an 8:00 game. Which took place at 11:30. We won. Done at 12:30. I ask when the next game is, and do I have time to take some of the boys (I drove 3 of them to the game) for lunch? Coach says there are 2 games before we play again so yes I have time for lunch. Get lunch. Get back. Is not the same game that was starting when we left, so I figure this is game 2 and we are next. Excellent. As that game is winding down, I turn to kids and say "better get ready, you are next". Coach says to me "I am not sure, I think someone else is next." I ask when our game starts. Coach doesn't know. Other Dads don't know. We go to tournament director (who is associated with the organization that sponsors S15's team, so we know him) to ask when we play. He says he doesn't know. It may depend on who wins the next game. He doesn't have the gym booked for much longer, and there is no one available on Father's Day to extend the hours. Plus we have reached the end of the time we paid for the referees (because we started 3.5 hours late). I tell him that it is Father's Day, we have many fathers here away from their families at a tournament that was supposed to end hours ago. And they need to make a decision. He says "OK, you are not playing any more games today. We will hold the championship game Wednesday night".

I am steaming that we spent 7 hours at the gym to play 1 game, and that we sat around for 2 hours only to be told we were not playing any more games. But there is nothing to be done about it. I drop the other kids off, go home with S15 to our house with no air conditioning (it broke Friday and needs parts that are not available on weekends), fuming. I want to go to pool club to relax. Mrs. Hold and kids are not enthusiastic about joining me. I am torn and frustrated and hot and unhappy.

Mrs. Hold sees this and rallies the troops. Kids, today is Father's Day and Dad needs a lift so get moving we are going to the pool. Gets everyone organized. A frozen drink and dip in the pool later, I am in much better spirits. Kids ended up having a great time. Sshhhh, don't tell anyone that S15 played catch with D13 in and out of the pool for the better part of an hour. She doesn't want him to realize how long it was. She was in heaven.

Then we went out to dinner. Food was good and we stuffed ourselves and brought home leftovers so S15 has dinner for tomorrow when Mrs. Hold will not be there to cook.

Then Mrs. Hold sat with me for an hour watching "my show". Which lasted for another 2 hours but come on we cannot refrain from watching reality tv for the entire night. So after an hour of watching my show and holding hands I watched the rest of my show in another room. Which was fine with me. Nice of her to watch my show at all.

So we salvaged what could have been an ugly day. Did not require sex to do it. Maybe life is not so bad.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/21/10 02:19 PM
You would think you were fabulous and admirable if you acted fab, eh?

See how your belief is real...and not real...only going one way?

Too scary to experience greatness, eh?

By doing great?

Not allowing for one second for you to lie to yourself and believe you're a pathetic loser and keep doing that loop.

You'd do so if it were your DD or DS saying that...and most likely, they do...because they hear you. Well, maybe at times they do.

Chicken and the egg, my friend. Choose the chicken. Or be the egg. Not both...act and your feelings follow.

Have you considered the severe hubris in believing God made you a pathetic loser? This inverted shame as an entitlement?

I don't believe you choose to act to your pathetic loser ideal...you don't with your kids (you spend time with them)...unless...

:::thought germinates:::

you're going to say, "See? I even fail at being a consistently pathetic loser."

LOL

I wouldn't put it past you, Hold. smile

LA
Posted By: 4everhopeful Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/21/10 08:11 PM
This is so wrong of me to post, but I can't get past why you go to the kitchen for video games and what TV show you are referring to.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/22/10 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by 4everhopeful
This is so wrong of me to post, but I can't get past why you go to the kitchen for video games and what TV show you are referring to.

TV program was The Phantom, a made for tv movie on SyFy channel. 3 hours long. No way Mrs. Hold would watch more than 1 hour with me. I was glad she would watch any of it.

Video game is in kitchen because that was where the HD tv lives. We don't yet have one in the living room. Video games work better on 32" hd tv than on the 36" low def analog tv. Kitchen was priority because Mrs. Hold spends much time there. So I got her the HD tv as a present. By the time I get home from work, and help kids with homework (if needed), everyone else is done with the kitchen for the day. So it is my "playroom" at night. Make sense?
Posted By: 4everhopeful Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/22/10 02:22 PM
Is The Phantom based on the old movie serial and 90s movie with Billy Zane (I can't remember which % of milk to buy but I remember things like Billy Zane starred in The Phantom).

Will HD make the 16-bit Sega Genesis system that I still have look better? We do own a Wii (not totally stuck in 1992).
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/24/10 01:08 PM
I find myself making excuses why Mrs. Hold and I have zero UA time. It costs money we don't have. I get horny and she won't consent to sex. If we want to be in love, we have to find ways to make spending time together enjoyable for both of us.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/25/10 01:09 PM
Mrs. Hold and D13 will be at swimming nationals the next 5 days. So obviously no UA time.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/28/10 02:52 PM
S15 played with his friends all weekend. Good for him. So I was alone. Saturday I went to a bar to watch the world cup. OK for one afternoon but I could not see myself enjoying that on a regular basis.

Sunday I intended to go to the pool club but S15 invited some friends over so I stayed home to make sure nothing improper happened. Watched tv and played PS3 most of the day after I finished my gardening, weeding, etc.

Felt lonely without Mrs. Hold. This is what I imagine single life would be. Me sitting alone at home playing PS3. I could not afford to join the pool club after divorce. A big part of why I stay married.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/28/10 03:34 PM
I do think it is good that you felt lonely without Mrs. Hold. If you didn't care one way or the other, that would mean you are completely detached.
Posted By: Old_STIM Re: Hi From STIM - 06/28/10 10:06 PM
Hey man, long time, no post.

For some reason I just got an itch to post.

I guess it was because I was reading about some guy on the vikings fan page whose wife had a fling with a bride's maid and one of his groomsmen BEFORE he was married. This was 10 years ago and he's freaking out! That made me think of all of the 10 page posts I had back in the day.

Here's an update:

1. Still married... happy actually. Had our 16 year anniversary this year.
2. The physical part is on again off again... but I have gotten older and it's simply not that big of a deal any more. When it's on, it's good. When it's off I don't obsess like I used to.
3. It's hard to tell whether she is happy... I think she is. Of course she would say it's because she has resigned herself to being married to me! I think she has gotten past the poor poor pitiful phase and realizes that I have been and still am a pretty good husband. Plus she knows I love her.
4. We're both 42 now. She's still pretty hot and my feelings in that department haven't changed.
5. No affairs... not even close... is there something wrong with me? Just kidding.
6. 3 Girls are now 11, 13, 15... ugggghhhhh. If I hear "I don't care" or "I hate you" or "Why do I have to do your work?" again this week I am going to scream. I mentioned this behavior to my dad and he (in his infinite wisdom) said to ignore them for the next 10 years and then it will be better. He's Dr. Phil without the drawl.
7. Looking back, I realize that I have occassionally been in a bad way. I know I stressed out my MIL as recently as 2 years ago and I think I probably messed up a friendship that my wife had by asking for help in getting through some of the tough times. It makes me realize that when things are tough we should confide in God... he doesn't stop being your spouse's friend and you don't worry that he'll bring it up over a family dinner some time.
8. I am in a pretty good place work wise. I am working for a regional trucking company as a controller. The $$$ are okay but I have been with the company through thick and thin for the past 5 years and have worked my way up to being a key player in the organization. I have a female boss who is buying the company who I respect immensely... and fear more than my wife to be honest. But she gets the best out of me.
9. I was in your next of the woods just recently. We went on a 3 week trip out east and passed through CT on the way from Charlottesville, VA to Boston. I actually thought about how your were doing for the 1st time in a long time.
10.I started working out in January for the 1st time in about 10 years. I am 6'3", but I hit 240 lbs so I figured I had to do something. Unfortunately, I messed up my shoulder in April working with my dad when I was visiting my parents. That caused me to sleep wierd so then I threw my back out 10 days before I was to leave with the family on vacation... I got it fixed and we went on vacation, but my shoulder still hurts a bit and now my siatic nerve is bothering me. Uggghhh... old age. But I was down to 231 when I got back from vacation and I am in a lot better cardio shape and have toned up a bit too... so it's mostly for the good. I recall you were doing that when I dropped off the site a long time ago.
11. Overall, I am at a way different place in my life than when I came on the site 12-13 years ago. Mostly it's better... heck it's all better. I like the patience and wisdom that age brings. Things don't get me as riled up as the used to, which is good.

How are you doing?

STIM
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 06/29/10 10:42 AM
Hey STIM. Great to "hear" from you. Glad to read that you have achieved some peace.

I have not. Age has not brought me wisdom or acceptance. I feel myself becoming a grumpy old man. I still get riled up at my wife. I realize she puts up with plenty from me but I don't care. I feel she owes me anyway. Wish I had better news to report on the marriage side.

Or the work side. I choose not to put in 100% out of spite at my wife. So I get what I deserve. Just treading water instead of flourishing.

The bright side is that the kids are great. I just dropped off S15 at school. He is going to Bermuda for a week on a science / scuba trip. D13 is at Niagara Falls for synchro age group national championships. Mrs. Hold is chaperoning.

I have plenty to be thankful for. I simply don't choose to be thankful. All on me.

Thanks again for stopping by. I have fond memories of hashing things out with you and Star all those years ago. Glad to hear you feel your life is better. I hope that continues. All the best.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/01/10 02:30 PM
Mrs. Hold and D13 arrived back home yesterday. Great hugs from D13. Mrs. Hold actually gave me a short hug. We talked for a while about the trip. I had dinner (the girls had eaten earlier). Then back to the bedroom for more talking and watching reality tv. Then sleep.

Woke up early. Mrs. Hold allowed me to put my arm on her shoulder. But no "receptivity moves". I fell back asleep with my arm over her. That is nice cuddling and intimacy which she often rejects, so I was pleased she allowed me to touch more than her hand. But again no movement or receptivity to taking it further.

When I got ready for work, I said "I was hoping you would put moves on me this morning." Then left.
Posted By: Old_STIM Re: Hi From STIM - 07/01/10 03:22 PM
Hold,

Sorry you haven't found peace...

But it's like I have told my frightfully lazy, know-it-all 15 YOD, the true challenge in life is internal, not external. You can conquer the world and if you haven't mastered your own emotions, you haven't achieved anything.

As you probably recall, your and my situations weren't all that different. Distant wife. Little physical intimacy. Work issues.

I have been there with you. Maybe I didn't fight with depression to the extent you did/do. My wife probably wasn't the spendthrift that your's was/is. But my wife's and my relationship was similar to what you and your's were going through.

I know I have been to the dark places emotionally too. I don't know what brought me back exactly.

As I think about it, I probably am a lot like my stoic father. He isn't much of a conversationalist but we were discussing happiness in life and I said that friends, family and work were like the 3 legged stool with your spirituality/god as the seat that holds it all together. I said that you can survive if you have some of those pieces working and if you have ALL of them working you really shouldn't tell anybody about it. His reply was that's true as long as one of things that is working well is your job.

Yes.

I have been with my current company over 5 years and have worked my way up to being the controller (in all but title). We have been through some horrific times financially during that period, but we pulled together when the economy tanked and are now more profitable than any time in the company's history. Now, I am one of the 3-4 key people in the company, my boss is buying the company from the absentee owner and I am hoping and praying that I can work here and continue to build the company until I can retire (say at the age of 110 or so based upon my current rate of savings). But work is definitely been the recipient of a lot of my energy and has been a source of pride and achievement for me.

Ironically, my boss has pushed all of us to have a work/life balance. This from the person that works 80 hours per week! But she is earnest about it.

So starting in January I started to exercise (as I recall you were doing for a long time). I am down about 10 lbs from 240 to about 230, but I feel way better. I have begun to get home by 5:30 or so at night. We took a 3 week vacation for the 1st time to the east coast in May and June.

In the month of June I think we were intimate about 3 times. But that was after about 5 months of nothing after my wife had her hystorectomy in December. But since I was working on improving me during that time it really wasn't a huge source of stress.

I am sure we will settle back into our old, little SF, grind again. But it really doesn't bother me because I am content, work is good, friends are good, I know I love my wife and I also know she loves me. She may NEVER love me exactly the way I would like. But you know what? I don't know that if I had regular SF that I would appreciate it as much or that I would be any happier than I am now.

In fact, I know that I am the type of person that if I was getting SF regularily, I would complain about the lack of variety or the fact that it had been a week with no contact. It would be more of a physical act/ release than real intimacy.

Yes, I have a lot of things in my life that could be much better but in the grand scheme of things it's really pretty good and I am happy for the most part. I certainly am no longer the person that let's the perfect get in the way of the good.



Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/01/10 03:53 PM
As I said above, I am glad that you have found acceptance. You are making a far wiser choice than I am. Good to hear.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 01:37 PM
Mrs. Hold was curt on the phone all day and was in a pissy mood when I got home last night. I asked if anything was bothering her and she said "I didn't like that you said what you said this morning and then left to go to work". I thanked her for sharing her feelings with me.

We talked a little (not about that topic - gossip about D13's swim team and S15's trip). Then I had dinner and she came in to sit with me and talk more. Then I downloaded the pictures from the camera she and D13 took to Nationals. Made a disk to send to her father. She was still in a pissy mood when I tried to talk to her again, so I played PS3.

I call BS on her not liking the manner in which I presented my message. Yes, I know that is a DJ.

Wedneday night they got home from Nationals. I said to Mrs. Hold "I missed you. I want us to be romantically in love with one another. Can we work on that together?" She rollled her eyes and said "oh no, are we going to talk about that again". So she is seriously saying that she did not want to talk about being romantically in love on Wednesday night, but she wanted an opportunity to discuss my disappointment with the lack of sex on Thursday morning? Not. Bloody. Likely.

We did have something resembling an open and honest discussion of what bothers her about me. My not being strong and confident and a shark at work. I said I know it bothers her. She told me not to put words in her mouth. I agreed that was a DJ. I asked her how she feels. She said it bothers her that I am not strong and confident and a shark at work. I told her I know. I asked her if she was looking for someone safe and gentle in her personal life when she picked me. She said she was. I asked if she regreted not realizing that safe and gentle at home might mean something other than sharky at the office. She said she did.

Look people, I know what I need to do to improve my relationship. Kick butt at work so Mrs. Hold is impressed with me. I refuse to do that. So, as usual, I am getting what I signed up for. If I want to have a good relationship with Mrs. Hold, I need to kick butt at work. If I choose not to even try, then I have no one to blame except myself for her not respecting me. After all, I don't respect myself, either.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 06:02 PM
Hold, you understand that when there are overnight separations, that it can take a day or two for either spouse to feel "warmed up enough" to be willing to attempt SF, correct? I don't think there are any bad guys here.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
I don't think there are any bad guys here.

Nonsense. We are both "bad guys".

And I realize your point is valid for some / many people. However, it is inapplicable to us. My wife basically never warms up enough. She is never in the mood for sex WITH ME. So there is no point saying "maybe in a couple of days of pleasant interaction she will be in the mood, don't rock the boat by being impatient". No amount of patience is sufficient to get us to where she is in the mood.

Or to put it differently, I understand that when spouses are in a State of Intimacy, physical separation can cause them to feel less connected. In that case, they will need time together to re-establish Intimacy. My wife and I are never in a State of Intimacy. So being apart does not cause us to disconnect. And being together does not bring us closer emotionally. In fact, we tend to get along better when we are apart. With sex out of the picture, there is far less tension in our interaction. It is when we are physically together that we have big problems.

I cannot envision us entering the State of Intimacy unless I were far more successful professionally / financially than I expect to ever become. Hence my profound doubt as to whether we will ever be Intimate. Hence my doubt that I will ever experience SF.

I didn't say I expected her to make moves. I know better. I merely said I was hoping she would. Because it would have been nice. Even though I knew it was only the remotest of possibilities.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 08:21 PM
ho2i,

I have not revisited this ongoing thread for a long time, and this just struck me as harsh:
Quote
I cannot envision us entering the State of Intimacy unless I were far more successful professionally / financially than I expect to ever become. Hence my profound doubt as to whether we will ever be Intimate. Hence my doubt that I will ever experience SF.

Why do you think that? What has your wife said to make you think that her lack of interest in sex is tied to money?

Is it FS for herself?
Is it Financial Insecurity?
Is it status?
Is it diminished Admiration for you, which is connected to low interest in SF?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 08:40 PM
All of the above.

She wants more FS. She wants to be able to redo the kitchen and all 3 bathrooms. She wishes we had another bedroom and bathroom so the grandparents could stay in our house when they visit. She wants to go on vacations with the kids far away and stay at fancy hotels and eat at fancy restuaurants. She wants designer clothes and jewelry. She wants to write checks to pay 100% of tuition, room, board, costs and spending money for both our children for as long as they continue in higher education.

She expected based on my job and education when we met that I would be able to provide this for her. She feels cheated that I cannot. Just as cheated as I feel that she can't provide me with more / better sex.

She wants more social status. We are among the least wealthy people in our town. Everyone has fancier houses, cars, clothes, etc.

She has no Respect or Admiration for me. She feels I am weak and spineless. She has zero sexual interest in me.

And she isn't wrong to feel that way. I am weak and spineless.

FWIW, as posted earlier in this thread, we were discussing precisely that last night. And she admitted her disappointment in me. And how it affects her desire for me. So this is not a DJ or me putting words in her mouth. This is how she feels.

This is not rocket science. She has told me what her ENs are. I have told her they are not going to be met while she remains married to me. Just how "in love" with me do you expect her to feel? Same thing in the opposite direction.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/02/10 09:26 PM
I hear what you are saying, HO2I, and I believe it, because I have seen it before, but it makes no sense to me. As long as someone is doing the best they can at work, how can you not have admiration for them? I suppose there is no married man who has not had his wife lose her admiration for his vocational abilities, at least temporarily - even Bill Gates, Thomas Edison, J. Paul Getty.

I have friends who are stockbrokers whose income is down 80%, and others who are only down 60% because they picked up the accounts of the brokers who quit. Real estate salesmen and brokers who have sold one house in the last year - didn't pay for their fuel, tires, cell phone and coffee. Are their wives (or husbands) supposed to punish them for no being able to earn 4 or 5 times as much as the other people in their office, because that's what it would require.

What kind of work do you do, HO2I? Has it been hit hard in this economy? Is it the kind of work where you could move to a cheaper place to live, make the same income, afford a nicer house, or at least not be comparing yourselves to those around you?
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 07/03/10 06:39 AM
Hi Hold. Jut wanted to chew the fat a moment (as opposed to the tin foil doh2). I read your description of why your wife doesn't respect you. I've seen you write similar things in the past. I'm just kinda struck by how it seems like...well, like you're trying to justify her behavior, on her behalf. Does that make any sense?

Your own description makes her sound like a first-rate gold digger. Please don't take that as an insult, as I don't mean it as one. I say that in the most clinical sense.

Perhaps your wife had these expectations/desires with no malicious intent; rather, they were simply what she sought in life, to no one else's detriment.

Still, it seems extreme. Or, at least, a little narcissistic.

But, most importantly, it seems she was not honest nor forthcoming with you before vows were said. Therefore, she sought/does seek to benefit at your detriment.

And, no doubt, you will respond that you did the same to her. And I can see how that is true.

So, what is my point? Eh, no real point, I suppose. Like I said, I'm just chewing the fat. It's just that I don't understand how/why you seem to say how your wife's behavior makes you miserable, yet, almost simultaneously, you're willing to justify her. I don't understand the disconnect, I reckon. But, I do have to respect your willingness to flog yourself and try to protect your wife. Then, again, sometimes I wonder if it's just your way of protecting your own emotions from...your own emotions. IOW, if you let yourself blame her for the things she really is responsible for, you would be so angry you'd wind up hating her. And, if that is true, I understand why you would do what you do. It's safer to turn the hurt and anger inward than outward. IOW, we hurt ourselves in an effort to keep from hurting someone else.

Me? I'm not strong enough to do that anymore. I just blame my W for 80% of the problems I have with our marriage. I'm too angry and hurt to keep turning it inward.

Trouble is, we teach people how to treat us, and I taught her for a long, long time to treat me in a way that I found hurtful. That is my 20%. It might be the more toxic 20%, though...

I suppose the other thing that runs through my mind is wondering how you can stand it. Then, I realize I experience some similar situations to yours, and have to ask myself the same question.

I guess the answer for me has historically been the fear of dealing with the immediate nightmare of ending the current situation in order to have peace in the future. I mean, why is it that if my marital house is uninhabitable, and I can't make the necessary repairs myself, I have to be the one to demolish it - but I have to stand in the basement and push the detonator handle? Seems pretty unfair.

I guess my question is, do you experience any of these same sensations?

Just for reference, you're still not doing as bad as you might believe. You have achieved far greater vocational success than I likely ever will, and have a wife who, though difficult and injured, is still willing to provide you with at least a physical release now and then (which is a long way from affection or intimacy, I know).

For comparison, I just went back to work after struggling for 10 years with a business that never paid me anything. So, now I've finally got a job doing long and stressful hours for mediocre money...but, they were the company that offered me a steady gig, ya know?

My W has similar FS aspirations and ambitions to yours, and has never had much admiration for my easy-going work ethic. But, she is employed and ambitious (and is close to a workaholic, IMO - but that's just my view of her work ethic).

We've been married for 15 years...in total celibacy.

Haven't slept together for about 7 years.

I got a kiss and a hug last year on our anniversary. None since. I long ago stopped initiating. The rejection just wasn't worth it. Besides, the neglect has made it an unattractive prospect, anyway.

You talk about being afraid of spending life alone in a dinky apartment playing video games if you divorced. I dunno, brother, but sometimes that sounds mighty inviting...

Sorry to just drop onto your thread like this and be such a downer. I suppose I'm just trying to say that you're not as alone as you may feel. And to ask if we share some similar emotional experiences.

(Yikes! That sounds a little too touchy-feely, donnit?. Eeeww...sorry.)

OK, OK, I'm just horning in on the group therapy. There, I admit it; are ya satisfied? laugh
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/04/10 02:21 PM
Retread:
What I do is very specialized and pretty much can only be done in big cities. Actually, of our firm's 7 offices, I live in the one with by far the lowest cost of living. Any place I go to will be a big city with higher costs.

COTF:
Yes, it sounds like we are living with similar wives. Not much fun. I feel for you. You mention hating her. We discussed this Friday night.

We were watching a movie: Victoria and Albert. They had sex on their wedding night, and Victoria says to Albert "now it cannot be undone". I turned to Mrs. Hold and said "wow, you are just like Queen Victoria. She asked in what way. I told her she said the same thing after we consummated our marriage. She claimed not to remember. Possible, since I am sure the statement was much more meaningful for me (in hindsight) than it was to her at the time or since.

She admitted she freaked out during our honeymoon. I told her the big problem was not the freak out during the honeymoon. It was the denial afterward. Especially during MC. I understand that admitting she freaked out would have affected the course of our MC. So I understood why she felt she had to deny it. But it basically destroyed any chance we had of reconciliation. Because everything we were discussing was either a lie or a half truth. Not surprising that we never made any progress.

She got quiet. She said "you must hate me". I asked her why she said that. She said "because what I did was so mean to you". I said "yes, it was."

We tried to have sex Saturday morning. I was unable to perform. It may be far too late to fix this.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/04/10 03:22 PM
HOLD, dont give up just when you two are making forward progress. Of course it will be different if she is starting to be honest. Of course things will seem different if you are being honest like you have not been in 12 years.

Of course things feel different!
They ARE different!
And they are getting better!
It will be an adjustment!


Ask your wife to work and pay that money back now!!!!
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 07/04/10 05:13 PM
Thanks for the compassion, Hold. However, much like you, a lot of my sitch is my own doing. Like you, I have my own reasons for doing things as I have. Unfortunately, many of my reasons are actually excuses to avoid the inevitable severe level of conflict. Others are just based in fear. I fully realize that, unlike a trip to the dentist, this IS going to hurt a bit...

I should add to my previous post that my anger at my W really is about me as much as it is her. No one forced me to be a doormat for as long as I was. I tought her that I was OK with what she was doing. I gave her the wrong impression.

Then again, she did the same to me, but I don't control that. And I know her actions are without premeditated malace, usually w/o malace at all. It's just part of her inborn nature.

The strange thing is how we can still intereact quite pleasantly and even share a few laughs now and then - like any reasonably courteous room mates or co-workers. Maybe it's even a little better than that. In fact, I believe my W would say things are far better than what I'm saying.

At the end of the day, I have to wonder:
A) what were we thinking when we married our wives?
B) what were they thinking when they married us?

The simple answer goes back to your sig line, Hold: nobody saw it coming. Nobody ducked. We all got clobbered.

Now, how do we heal all the wounds?
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 07/04/10 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Of course things will seem different if you are being honest like you have not been in 12 years.

So true, Bubbles, for anyone in these circumstances.

Unfortunately, part of that difference is how gut-wrenching the process can be (not that the status quo isn't gut-wrenching). I have to believe that it really shouldn't be this hard...

Only actions produce results, but taking those actions are often difficult and downright scary because of the risks that accompany them. Bubbles, I have to salute you for the courageous way you have handled the difficulties in your marriage and came through it for the better.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 07/05/10 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I told her she said the same thing after we consummated our marriage. She claimed not to remember. Possible, since I am sure the statement was much more meaningful for me (in hindsight) than it was to her at the time or since.

Yup. I've had similar experiences.

Shortly after our 1st anniversary, I inquired if things were alright between us, as the affection had dropped off a lot since getting married.

Her response: "Things are fine. Before we were married I wanted affection because I didn't know when I would see you next. Now, you're here all the time, so it's no big deal..."


Oh, really?


RE - the absence of SF in our relationship:

"I thought you understood - no kids, no sex."


It's true, we have always agreed that we didn't want to have kids; I DID NOT understand that to equal celibacy. But, apparently she didn't understand that I didn't understand...


My next thought may be a little TMI, so I apologize in advance, but it perhaps most accurately expresses our disconnect. When I asked her how she thought SF was supposed to work in our marriage, she said it was my job to pleasure her, and her job to let me.

Uh...wha...???


Anyway, my W doesn't recall any of these conversations, either. Like you said, Hold, her words meant much more to me than they did to her.

My biggest problem has always been how to find a starting point when my w's sensibilities and my own are so vastly removed from each other.

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
It may be far too late to fix this.

I understand your despair. Regrettably. For both of us.
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Hi From STIM - 07/05/10 11:34 PM
Quote
What I do is very specialized


Have you ever thought about venturing out on your own?

I do understand that specializing usually mean limited clientele, so you may need to expand your working field some.

Quote
pretty much can only be done in big cities


Nonsense, most things with the way our transport systems are now, can be done virtually any were. Elictronic media goes everywere, UPS is everywere.

Yes, personal up front and close will require travel, but arent you already doing that?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/06/10 01:34 PM
Had a very nice anniversary. I went to religious services and Mrs. Hold went to exercise class, so no am togetherness. But we got home and had lunch and (thanks to D13 for the idea) we went to Six Flags and had a very nice day. Except for Mrs. Hold getting sun tan lotion in her eye. But we washed it out and she recovered nicely yesterday.

Monday morning we got our togetherness time. Then she dropped off D13 at an activity, I went to services and ran errands. Monday is WW day for Mrs. Hold. I surprised her and stopped by the class. She had gained weight and I knew she was unhappy so I poked my head in and told her I love her whether her week is up, down or sideways. She said after I left the woman next to her remarked what a good husband I am. In the afternoon, I bought groceries and cooked diner while Mrs. Hold picked up D13. Pleasant weekend.

Dred:
Actually, I don't do much travel. That is what I like about this position. High level intellectual stimulation, reasonable commute, small city location.

And what I meant about big cities is the networking. Not that I do much. But the partners who bring in business do. And they are all based in big cities so they can have lunch or dinner with bankers, accountants, etc who refer clients. If I want to make more money, I would have to bring in business. VERY few people in our field do that "virtually". In fact, I can only think of one person in the USA who does what we do and is not located in a large city.

Yes, that is an excuse and shows that I am not willing to "think outside the box" and make an effort to create the job I want. Which is true. I am not. I am too lazy for that. I want more money in a "it would be nice to buy a winning lottery ticket" kind of way. Not in a "go out and make it happen" kind of way.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/06/10 02:37 PM
There's nothing wrong with that, Hold. In fact, it may indicate a level of happiness in your job situation or at least satisfaction regardless of Mrs. Hold's desires.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 01:29 PM
A couple of conversations over the weekend confirmed that I am not misreading Mrs. Hold. For those of you who think I misrepresent her thoughts and feelings, listen up.

Saturday night we dropped D13 at a party. We saw some adults we knew who had been invited to the party. We were not. Mrs. Hold expressed disappointment that we were not invited. I validated that it feels bad not to be invited. I then pointed out that we don't socialize much, and you can't expect to be invited places if you don't socialize much. Mrs. Hold, S15 and I had a long conversation over dinner about socializing and the opportunities it provides to "expand one's circle".

In the end, Mrs. Hold admitted that she would like to socialize more, but she is embarrassed by our house. She thinks people in town (including the ladies at the gym) would think less of us if they saw how small and old and unfashionable our houise is. S15 pointed out that at least one of the couples invited to the party has a house that is even more run down than ours. Mrs. Hold said she didn't care. She thinks many of her friends imagine we are rich since her husband is a well-educated lawyer at a well-known firm, and she does not want them to learn the truth. So she is not comfortable expanding her social circle.

S15 and I confirmed she was correct. Some people would think less of us. So we wouldn't be friends with those people. But others wouldn't care and it would enrich our lives to spend time with them. She said she doesn't want anyone who doesn't know to find out because the women at the gym gossip and once one of them discovered we were not rich she would tell the others and Mrs. Hold's status at the gym would plummet.

So I guess we won't be socializing much in the future.

Yesterday, we visited my sister and nephew. When the kids went out to play, we were discussing our kids (not hers, her son is younger) being teenagers and Mrs. Hold being worried about them doing drugs. We had a nice conversation about the risks and about our kids and that you have to remain on the lookout but you can drive yourself nuts worrying about bad things that might happen.

Mrs. Hold said she worries because "I have an addicitive personality and anything that feels good and I enjoy I can't get enough of. That is how I gained weight, because I could not resist food".

Later we took the kids out to get ice cream cones. Mrs. Hold and I hung back a little. She said "it hurt you to hear what I said, didn't it." I agreed it did. Because it is obvious she doesn't find it difficult to resist me, so it obviously can't feel good. She agreed. It doesn't.

When we got home and the kids were settled elsewhere, we resumed the conversation. I asked her why she lied to the counsellors and therapists about our sex life. At first she claimed it wasn't a lie, she simply told them that she felt safer and less threatened by me than by other guys, and the MCs and therapists assumed that meant the sex was good. I told her she knows what she said was misleading. She admitted it was. I asked her how she could waste all that time and all that money if she had no intention of actually working on our marriage. She said "if we discussed those topics truthfully, the MCs might have drawn the conclusion that we were incompatible, and I (Mrs. Hold) might have agreed with them, and I didn't want anyone putting that on the table, so I refused to go in that direction." She said that if she decided we were incompatible, she might have felt obliged to leave me. So she refused to allow herself to admit the truth to herself, much less the MCs. She said "it was denial, just denial".

I thanked her for finally being honest with me. She said she enjoys our marriage. It is not perfect and it involves disappointments. But it works for her and she wants it to continue. But she is not interested in working on the sex part.

So we know where we stand. It is pretty much where I thought we were. And now she has confirmed that she truly does feel what I have consistently reported were her likely thoughts and feelings.

I don't feel as bad as I expected. I always suspected this is how she feels. And how she behaved during MC. So it is not shocking to learn I was correct. It hurts. But it is not shocking.

I think the ball is now in my court to be more open. To reassure her that I won't be leaving while the kids are living with us. So she can be truthful with me without fearing it would cause me to walk out the door. But also to say that "hiding the ball" won't keep her safe in the long run. Because I can't promise her I will stay after the kids leave.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 02:08 PM
How awful to live at the mercy of others approval of you. Whatever relationships you might have with people who would develop or not develop relationships with your and your children based on your material possessions would be shallow. Why would you want to cultivate relationships with people who would judge you based on what your house is or isn't?

This seems like the perfect time for you to speak openly and honestly with Mrs. Hold about what you want your future to look like. She has told you she doesn't want change and you feel you do. Maybe you can make plans together for what your futures might look like. This would put the future in a realistic light for Mrs. Hold and might give you something to strive for. You may even be able to end things amicably if you both work on plans for the future together.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 03:29 PM
Not sooo awful. Many people live like that. Me among them.

Yes, we should probably speak openly. I told Mrs. Hold on the phone today that we need to continue our conversation. She reacted negatively. Not unexpected.

Hopefully we can agree to stay together until the kids are grown. Last night I told he that a big part of why I stay is the kids, the house, etc. She said for her it is not. That she likes me and she likes our life. I told her that if she likes me being miserable, I can do without being liked. She said I would be miserable no matter how she behaved (or how anyone involved with me behaved) so she does not allow my unhappiness to affect her mood, her decisions, or her behavior. Good to know.

I remain convinced that we are simply incompatible, in that neither of us is willing to change sufficiently for our spouse to be content. She said as much this morning. That she wants to be invited to parties and events. But she wants to stay in her comfort zone of not socializing. I told her she would have to move out of her comfort zone to receive more invitations. She agreed but said she is not willing to change. Last night she said she was never willing to have an honest discussion of where each of us would draw the line at what we could offer / accept, because then it would be clear that neither of us can offer (me money, her sex) enough to satisfy the other person. So if we were open and honest, one or both of us would choose to leave. I think she is correct. In the end we are both Renters, not Buyers.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 08:14 PM
Quick chat with Mrs. Hold. She said she was not upset with me this weekend, she was upset with not being invited to the party. I validated that it stinks to be excluded. And that she has understandable PTSD from being excluded. Since her family moved so many times when she was a child so she was always the new kid and the outsider.

However, I disagreed that it has nothing to do with me. She is being excluded in part because we don't socialize much. And we don't socialize much in part because Mrs. Hold is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house then we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me.

At that point S15 came home and she got off the phone to debrief him about his day.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 08:34 PM
HOLD, I am glad you and the wife are finally trying to be honest with each other after all these years. That honesty alone will free you to some extent. When things are unsaid, and there are lots of lies, that is when you really feel miserable stuck in a marriage with that kind of stress.

However, there are so many options for her if she were willing to change. She wants to be invited to parties, she could:

1. Get a job and raise the family income
2. Support you in every way (emotionally also) so you will want to make more money
3. Change so that she does not care what people think
4. Go to events to "be with the other people" instead of going to events hoping to "impress other people". One is self centered and one is other centered.
5. Learn to care for others rather than just herself.
6. Realize that most people could care less who you are or what you have.
7. Learn to be a nicer more caring person.
8. Learn to socialize in a new and different way
9. Get over the idea that money can buy friends
10. Form some moral and ethical rules around the reasons for socializing
11. Figure out her reasons for going to parties and change those reasons.

There is so much more. She could learn new ways of being if she wants to do so. It is all up to her if she wants to or not.

How would she feel about attending some "low brow" parties just for an experiment or does she tend to "look down" on most people?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 09:06 PM
Hold,

I like you guys continuing this conversation. It's intimate. Oops.

smile

Could you please use "I" statements when talking to your DW, though?

[quote]However, I disagreed that it has nothing to do with me. She is being excluded in part because we don't socialize much. And we don't socialize much in part because Mrs. Hold is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house then we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me./quote]

"She is being excluded in part because she doesn't choose to socialize much (you do the Men's Group at church). I don't choose to urge her to socialize much in part because I believe DW is embarrassed by my lack of career success. If I were more successful and made more money and we lived in a fancier house, I believe we would socialize more. So in part this is about her disappointment in me."

And yet she wouldn't. She has folks on levels, eschelon's...the higher hers, the more rungs up to look down on her. It's a pattern, a personal problem she has and she shared that with you.

Don't try to take even a part of it from her. Be MORE honest...

"I fear you blame me for not being invited. I hear you telling me I'm the problem, that you're really embarrassed of me not impressing those you would like to be friends with."

You can take in shame that isn't yours. She is afraid of being looked down on. Usually means, she's looking down on others. A signal. Not a condemnation.

Don't add to her looking down on for you.

And as for sex...again, your responsibility is to say, "I believe we make ourselves incompatible with our partners. Your issue with sex makes us as incompatible as me not addressing your previous financial infidelity does. We both take do this, and I think we agree to keep doing it (withholding and resenting) knowing it hurts our compatibility. I think we need to help each other to stop hurting our marriage to make it another six years together."

Did you really think you were doubted about what you heard your DW saying previously? Or were you conveying confirmation in yourself, that she really does have issues with people...and that includes you looking down on her and her looking down on you. Again, a commonality, not incompatibility.

Did it hurt inside of you to hear how she views your family home, thinks through the eyes of others? I think you guys probably have a really nice home...is it more, less or about the same you envisioned having someday when you were a teenager?

Are you embarrassed by your DW for the financial infidelity? Do you tell her that you're embarrassed by her?

I'm asking because if you had all of the money which she spent, instead of as marital debt, would she be disappointed?

Financial success is both...career success and controlled spending. You taking it all on as you...well, that's just greedy, isn't it?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 10:25 PM
I do try to use I statements when speaking with her. I realize the you statements are DJs. And she is cingulate and goes berzerk when I "tell her what is inside her head".

Still, as she admits, she often retreats into denial. Makes the locutions complex sometimes. She says how she feels. It rings false. I ask if she is being honest. She repeats the possibly false statement. I express my skepticism. I tell her I fear she is in denial. Many times she accuses me (correctly) of committing a DJ. But more often lately she admits she is in denial. And she admits to lying. I thank her for her honesty. Even when what she expressed is painful to hear.

I have thanked her for admitting to the freak out. I have thanked her for admitting she feels nothing during sex. I have thanked her for admitting she repeatedly lied to the MCs and therapists over the years. I have thanked her for admitting that she is embarrassed by our house. I have thanked her for admitting she is disappointed in my lack of career success. I have made it as safe as I can for her to admit unpleasant truths. I must be doing a decent job, since she has felt comfortable issuing so many of them lately.

Does not cause me to feel closer to her. Does not motivate me to work on the things she wants from me. To meet her ENs. Just confirms my fear that we will never be happy while we remain married. I am going to put the issue of divorce squarely on the table. That I don't want it now. But I see it happening when the kids leave. Unless we change course. Which I don't see either of us choosing to do.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Did it hurt inside of you to hear how she views your family home, thinks through the eyes of others? I think you guys probably have a really nice home...is it more, less or about the same you envisioned having someday when you were a teenager?

Not much. I knew she felt that way. We have discussed her disdain for our house many times.

My house is less than I expected as a teenager. Less than my parents' house. Much less than I expected after law school. And one of the smallest and least updated houses in our town. I am not being eeyore when I say I am disappointed in myself and our house. I am not comparing myself to some other person's achievements or expectations. I have fallen short of mine.

Quote
Are you embarrassed by your DW for the financial infidelity? Do you tell her that you're embarrassed by her?

I am much more embarrassed by my career failure than by her overspending.

I am angry at her for the financial infidelity. I have in no way forgiven her. I hold that anger close to my heart. I feed it. Perhaps I could forgive her if it stopped.

Quote
I'm asking because if you had all of the money which she spent, instead of as marital debt, would she be disappointed?

Yes, she would be disappointed even if she had not overspent. She overspent a large amount of money. But far less than the difference between what I make and what we expected I would be making. Maybe she overspent by $200 K or $300 k over the past dozen years. We expected I would be making that much more PER YEAR. So she overspent $300 k. And I underearned by over $1 million over the same period. Plenty of blame to go around on both sides.

Quote
Financial success is both...career success and controlled spending. You taking it all on as you...well, that's just greedy, isn't it?

I would be happier with her as a life partner if she had not overspent. But I would still view myself as a failure at my career. I would not respect myself. And she would not find me attractive. Her controlling her spending would NOT resolve our FS issues. Or our SF issues. And yes, the two issues are unavoidably intertwined.

It is true that we are not a team. And that she plays a part in that. She is no more of a team layer than I am. Perhaps less. Who is to say? But there is room for me to view myself as a FS failure apart from the arguably unreasonable nature of her expectations or the extent to which her behavior has contributed to our problems.

If we balanced our books today. And she helped to pay off the remaining debt. I don't think either of us would be satisfied with our financial position.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 11:27 PM
You two are a team.

A team that together, is going toward disaster.

You make money, she wants more money, then... she overspends.
She wants more money yet she refuses to work
You want sex, she does not like sex with you
Both of you are in a rut, she more than you.
You are gradually getting closer to the truths in your marriage.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/12/10 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
You are gradually getting closer to the truths in your marriage.

The truth that we should have gotten divorced long ago?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/13/10 12:48 PM
I tried to engage Mrs. Hold last night. I asked her to sit and talk while I ate dinner. She did. We talked about one of the possible trips we might take next year. Logistics for the trip to Maine this summer. Then she raised an issue that surprised and pleased me. She is thinking about going back to school to get a paralegal certificate. She is very organized and I think she would make a great paralegal. Eventually S15 got home from a friend's and we all sat together while he ate.

Then Mrs. Hold and I went into our room to watch The Bachelorette. I tried to talk to her. She was distant. When they got to showing one of the guys, she kept saying "I would never pick him. He is too needy. Too weak." I said "well, you might not pick him now, but you might have 20 years ago. You have learned alot about love and relationships since then." She said something like "you got that right".

Usually she is open to holding hands while we watch tv, but last night she pulled her hand away. Eventually I got tired of the verbal and physical rejection and left the room.

So a frosty night but her discussion of the paralegal idea gives me hope.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/13/10 10:12 PM
You didn't try to engage MrsHold last night, sir.

You invited and she accepted...and you guys engaged.

smile

Power words...language power. Know what you do from what you didn't do...and there really is no try.

She didn't want your hand or to respond to your talk...no try. You spoke. She didn't respond in the way you wanted. What's your agreement about talking during a show? Just during commercials or anytime, or is it on a show-by-show basis?

Sounds like she wanted to exchange opinions about the show.

You felt rejected, felt the frost and distance. Again, you didn't use your words...pausing the show and saying, "MrsHold, I believe you're rejecting me physically and verbally right now...that you're frosty and distancing and I'm hurting. I'm going to remove myself until after your show is over."

Not what you wanted...not even the discussion you wanted...about SF...and yet you have said, astutely IMO, that the FS and the SF are intermingled, entwined. Okay...so you got half of that and you chose hope.

I think removing yourself was healthy...the way you did it, unhealthy.

Just like you asking her to sit and talk with you while you ate...and she did...and sharing ideas, plans and her stuff, your stuff. That's marriage. That's partnering.

Not all right or all wrong...just see where you react "old" and choose NEW (even if you're out the bedroom door when you realize the "old", go back and do "new").

Quote
she kept saying "I would never pick him. He is too needy. Too weak." I said "well, you might not pick him now, but you might have 20 years ago. You have learned alot about love and relationships since then." She said something like "you got that right".

I want to challenge your honesty on your statement. Do you think she has learned a lot about love and healthy relationships in the past 20 years? Or were you implying something, roundabout, rather than sharing honestly?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/14/10 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I want to challenge your honesty on your statement. Do you think she has learned a lot about love and healthy relationships in the past 20 years? Or were you implying something, roundabout, rather than sharing honestly?

I think she has learned that there are downsides to "nice" and "safe" that she did not see 20 years ago. And that what she thought was "safe" is actually not safe at all, just a different kind of problem.

As we say on another forum discussing mismatched libidos, high libido women often find it captivating when they meet a guy who is not "all about sex". They like the idea that he isn't "just after me for my body". Until the 2nd or 3rd time he turns her down for sex. Then they realize that a guy who never initiates sex when she doesn't want it might well turn her down when she asks. Be careful what you wish for and all that.

On the other hand, as your post implies, she hasn't learned much about sex. Since we hardly ever do it, never discuss it, hardly ever try new things and don't share our views or reactions on what we do try. And she hasn't learned that much about healthy relationships, since we haven't been in one. And don't practice the skills we have been told might help.

So she hasn't learned nearly as much as she might have. Especially given how much time, energy and money we have spent working on it. And she isn't that much more honest with herself. Although that may be changing. As she finally admits to herself that we are not compatible and that she may have to leave me to find happiness.

Then again, there are limits to her self-honesty. She keeps saying "I feel nothing down there. Not with you. Not with anyone else". She makes it seems like this is natural and normal and acceptable. And that there is nothing she can do about it. But she has normal urinary function. She got pregnant and carried to term and delivered 2 healthy children vaginally. I guess it is possible that she has some nerve damage that prevents sensation from her sex organs from reaching her brain. Still, it seems far more likely that this is a psychological issue. But no, we can't go in the direction. That simply cannot be the correct analysis.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/14/10 03:54 PM
She does not care about anyone but herself. That is something you cannot change. You accidently married a very selfish woman. She feels entitled to NOT having sex, NOT wanting sex in marriage and NOT making up for her lack of wanting sex and at least helping YOU OUT.

She could help you out in 1000 ways even if she never wants sex herself. But she does not care enough for you. She could care less about you it is all about her. That is the root problem.

1. She could say that she does not enjoy sex but ask what you needed each week
2. She could open up to learning about her own sex drive and how to enjoy sex
3. She could pleasure you each week willingly and regularly
4. She could talk with you about sex until the problems were solved
5. She could do a lot of things but she wont because she is a totally self centered and selfish human being and cannot see beyond her own "importaant" needs.

She only gives you (anything) because she has bargained for you to keep bringing in that paycheck for her to spend. Otherwise she would give NOTHING to you. she gives the very least she can to the marriage and still have it intact.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/15/10 01:48 PM
Tried to engage Mrs. Hold last night. Very chilly reaction. I told her I felt a cold breeze from her side of the bed. She didn't say anything. I told her I don't enjoy sitting next to her when she is so cold. Silence. I told her I was uncomfortable continuing to sit near her, told her where I was going, and left the room.

A few minutes later I needed to get something from the bedroom. She lit into me. "This is not about what you feel. Not everything is about you. Maybe I am sad. Maybe I am unhappy. Do you even care how I feel?" I said I am not happy to hear she is sad. I asked if there is anything I can do to help her feel less sad. Talk to her? Discuss her hopes and dreams? Rub her shoulder? Scrape the calluses off her heels? She said no, there isn't anything I can do.

I told her I am available to her to discuss what is bothering her and what I can do to help. But if she doesn't want to talk about it, and she is going to be rude to me and give me the silent treatment when we are together, then I will be watching tv in another room.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/15/10 01:51 PM
Sounds almost like she read my post...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 02:25 PM
Nice weekend. MIL and FIL visited. Pleasant time with S15 and FIL on Saturday while Mrs. Hold, D13 and MIL went to art show. Sunday I picked berries and made jam. Later all 6 of us went to a movie and dinner. Mrs. Hold was pleasant throughout. Amazing how well we get along when we don't spend any time together just the 2 of us.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 06:56 PM
Likely a show for her parents.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 07:09 PM
No show. What is there to show? She is normally quite pleasant in public or in front of the kids. Since this weekend was spent apart or with others, no UA time. With no UA time, no reason for her to snap at me.

In fact, the only time she did snap at me was when we were alone for 2 minutes. She went to an exercise class in the morning. When she came home around 10:30 am, I went outside to pick berries. She took a nap since she was wiped out from exercise. I came in 2 hours later and the 6 of us had lunch. She went back to napping. I made jam. Around 3:30 pm I brought a spoon of jam in to the bedroom for her to taste. I thought the jam tasted great, and I was excited about sharing my success with her. Plus we had to leave for the movie in 15 minutes so she had to get up soon anyway. I tapped her gently on the toe. She jumped up and started balling me out for interrupting her nap. I apologized and slunk back to the kitchen to make sure the last jar had finished processing. To her credit, she did apologize later for snapping at me.

I don't think she put on a show for her parents. I think she is perfectly happy to spend time with me at a restaurant with the kids. She doesn't have to pretend she enjoys that. And when we are alone together in the bedroom, she doesn't pretend to enjoy that either.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 08:41 PM
I thought the show might be to exhibit kind and sweet behavior toward you so her parents couldn't fault her when they hear the marriage might be in danger. Maybe she's not thinking that far ahead.

I understand your explanation that she doesn't need to put on a show because she enjoys family time just not time alone with you. Does she know she does this?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 08:47 PM
She is a very selfish human being. She is in the top few percentage of selfish humans that exist now in the world. Why do you ever expect anything unselfish or good to come from her...ever?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/19/10 10:38 PM
She is not selfish. Well, not any more than the rest of us. She is simply trying to deal with her pain and fear the best way she knows. I am just "collateral damage".
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 01:59 PM
We had an open and honest talk this morning. Profit numbers came out yesterday. Senior partners at our firm made $900,000 and up. I said "if I were making that much, I would feel differently about myself and you would feel differently about me, and you wouldn't reject me as much." She tried to deny it. I said "we have been married 18 years, please be honest. This is not about blame or condemnation. This is about factual truth." She said "OK, all you said is true. But there are things about you I like that I didn't expect to be important to me. You are warm and funny. And you are a great Dad." I said "yes, I am. But that doesn't make you feel about me the way I need my wife to feel about me." She said "I am sorry we can't work this out." I replied "It is to be expected. Money is the only thing I felt I had to offer and I projected myself that way. It is not surprising that I found a girl for whom that is the most important thing. I have not held up my end of the bargain. It isn't surprising that you haven't held up yours either." She said "please know that to me it is still, on balance, worth it." I said "you are a nice person. You have a big heart. You mean well. I appreciate that. But it doesn't solve our problem."

So at least we are being open and honest. Even if there doesn't seem to be any way short of winning Powerball to resolve it. I make little more than 3rd or 4th year lawyers at our firm. Not where either of us expected me to be after 25 years of practice. I shouldn't blame her for my failure.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 03:28 PM
Hold, do you honestly believe making more money will make your W find you more sexually attractive? Can that even be? Would you truly want that kind of love, one that is only stimulated by money and the things it can buy?

I picture an old man with a young gold digger who lavishes attention on him and provides sex because he can buy her stuff. All the desire is fake. You're talking about the same situation only the age difference isn't so great. I thought you wanted to loved for who your are and desired for who you are.

What is great is the honesty. Keep that up and if you part it might not be such an emotional upheaval.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 04:01 PM
Hold,
If your top partners are dividing up that kind of profits, the lower-paid attorneys have to be making decent money. For there to be a huge discrepancy, it would be a very large firm. At a smaller firm, not so much difference. My point is, whatever you are making is not "failure" compared to the rest of the world, only in your eyes, compared to some top mega-lawyers. That's like a family physician comparing themselves to a heart surgeon in a bypass mill, knocking down $1,000,000 a year but maybe working or on the phone 110 hours a week. It's false to compare such unequal careers.

I know you must be in your late forties, but have you considered moving to a smaller city that lacks your specialty, or looking for a top-notch smaller firm looking to grow a little by adding your specialty? Again, just wearing my consultant hat, looking for a solution that is right in front of you.

The root question is, how much money would it take to make you feel "not a failure", and how much would it take for your wife to treat you with some respect, too? I'll bet neither one of you can really say.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 04:16 PM
Retread reminded me of something. I believe YOU THINK your wife would like you better if you made ___________amount of money.

Even your wife thinks she would be more sexually attracted to you if you made ____________of money.

BUT WHAT IF THIS IS NOT TRUE?

If you were bringing in huge amounts of money and she was spending it like the selfish spender she is....

NOTHING WOULD CHANGE!

You would have to make so much money that she could not easily spend it all!

You each would have to have your lives together enough to WANT SEX!

She hates sex basically, why do you think more money would make her want it suddenly? It would not.

Deep inside I think you know this. That is why you do not try harder at work.

You know this:

1. There is no TOP LIMIT to the money you would have to make to get more sex outta her

2. If you made even one million a year, she would spend close to that.

3. She still would not want sex, because she does not naturally like sex.

4. She still would not like you ANY MORE than she does now.

5. It would change NOTHING, even if you made millions a year.

6. About all that would change is she could impress the rest of the world and seemingly feel better about herself at parties and temporarily.

7. You could literally work yourself to the bone and nothing in your marriage would change.


You know all this deep inside yourself and you are not willing to work that hard only to find your marriage and sex life does not improve.

Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 04:31 PM
I'll bet every one of us knows some man who didn't make enough money to earn the admiration and respect from his wife that a marriage needs, or a woman who was not pretty enough. They end up divorced, remarried to someone with a different perspective, to a wife who thinks he is so much a better provider than other men she has known, and the woman to a man who finds her beautiful.

Someone here said it before: Expectations are a set up for resentment.

Think how many people lost their farms, businesses, and steady union jobs during the Depression, but they still stayed together and built a new life, just like luroosi2 referenced in Jeremiah 29.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 04:36 PM
I maintain that if a woman needs her man to make more money before she can admire him....then she will NEVER TRULY ADMIRE HIM.

If a man needs a woman to be more attractive, then he will NEVER LOVE HER.

But these things are not known until the person divorces the one who does not love them,,,and finds another who truly does love them!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 07:14 PM
Guys, all of this is wonderful in theory. In practice, my wife and I made a deal while we were dating. She would bring her great body and willingness to have sex with me to the table, and I would bring my gigantic earning potential. You can call us both shallow and foolish, but those were our expectations. I didn't think I had anything to offer except my earning capacity. No woman ever paid me any attention until I graduated law school. Few paid me any attention after graduation, and it was very clear to me what attracted the few who showed any interest. Given how I presented myself, it was inevitable that I would attract someone who felt as Mrs. Hold does. Perhaps I was stupid to rely so heavily on my income potential, but at the time it seemed my only choice if I were to avoid being alone.

Bubbles, you know she would have more sex with me if I earned more. Why? Because she would respect me more. She would find me more sexually attractive if I had more self-confidence. And she would know that I could easily find someone else. A big part of our lack of progress in marriage counselling was her refusal to accept that the money mattered to her. She didn't want to think of herself that way. But framed as an issue of respect, I think she is now willing to accept that my inability to create the career and income she expected has dramatically reduced her attraction to me.

No, that doesn't explain why she refused to have sex on our honeymoon or during our first year of marriage. Yes, she would still have some residual PTSD issues to deal with. But she would be much more motivated to work on them if she respected and admired me and feared losing me. At this point, "losing" me would probably feel like relief rathe than loss.

Retread, I have a very unique niche practice. There are very few firms that do what we do. My skillset is more valuable here than just about any other firm I can think of. If I cannot build a practice here, I don't see how I can build a practice at a firm with a lesser reputation in our field. The fault is not primarily that they are shutting me out (although in many ways they are). The fault is primarily that I have lost faith in myself. I don't trust myself not to miss subtle points without the extensive support system I have here. And I find it difficult to even try to make things better. If I leave here, I will likely feel like even more of a failure, and find it that much harder to motivate myself to attempt success. I can easily see my fear of failure becoming paralyzing. As you say, I may not make as much as the mega-lawyers, but I make a decent living, and I am not willing to throw that away for a position that has more upside potential but also much more downside risk and triggers lots more anxiety.

As for how much I would have to earn to not feel like a failure, I would say somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 per year. That is about double what I make. In the past 10 years my salary has increased about $30,000. I don't think it is reasonable to expect it to increase by $200,000 any time soon.

I am simply too risk averse to do what needs to be done. Divorce Mrs. Hold. Get another job. Build up my self-confidence. And then go find a woman who is attracted to the new healthier me. I am too fearful of change. I would rather stay in the misery I know than leap into the unknown. Even though I am convinced that staying with Mrs. Hold and staying in this job almost assures that I will remain miserable, depressed and filled with self-loathing.

I haven't made any major changes in the 8+ years since I arrived here. Tried many therapists. Both individual and marital. I convinced myself 5 years ago that the marriage was doomed but I won't take any action until the kids graduate. D13 has only 5 more years home, so I have already served half of my "sentence". Then we shall see. Although by then it will probably be too late as regards the career. Perhaps not too late for me to find me.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 07:37 PM
Hold,
I know a few very specialized lawyers. My daughter worked for one like your senior partners, in NYC. I know ones in smaller cities who are very specialized in trusts and estates, who moved there from Los Angeles or NYC, where they were the very best. There is so much business in America that no matter how specialized you are in anything, there is more than you can do, and some left over for 10 competitors.

I have known people who forgot where they came from, who divorced their husbands when their incomes fell from $500,000 to $50,000 for a year. A lot of top engineers, managers, Wall Street lawyers, and even doctors, are making half or less than a few year ago, some only 20% or 25%. Some feel like total failures, and some are debt-free, just riding it out, living better than they did when they made that same money on the way up.

Two men, two wives, or two couples, could have the same incomes doing the same jobs, and one be happy, while the other feels like a failure. Success, like sex, is 90% between the ears.

This recession isn't helping. It's like a hurricane. It may take down some of the biggest strongest trees, but it is going to clean out all the dead wood. You've never ridden out a hurricane. When you walk outside the first sunny day, everything is so green, because everything that was weak and brown and not well-rooted is just gone.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 07:52 PM
Retread:

I am weak and brown and not well-rooted. That does not inspire me to imagine I can successfully survive being uprooted and planted elsewhere.

As I said, the key factor is not that this job does not present opportunities. The problem is that I do not have the confidence to attempt them. I sit in my office with my head down, hoping no one realizes how stupid I have become. I am shattered.

To succeed I would need to remake myself. Gather my shards and forge a new me. Impossible to imagine I will summon the courage to do that when every night is another relentless battering of my esteem by the person who shares my bed.

She pre-emptively rejected me verbally and through body language both last night and again this morning. I wasn't trying for sex. But if I rolled toward her she grunted negatively or threw her arms up to ward me off. When we got dressed I said I felt rejected. She said "just because I was feeling icky last night and this morning?" I said "no, because you have felt that was the past 6500 days."

It is easier if I play PS3 until 2 am and then collapse into bed exhausted, and wake at the last possible moment before showering, dressing and heading to work. That way we do not spend a single moment in bed together. But it does not help me feel good about myself.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 08:54 PM
And more sex with a woman who is motivated to consent (not enjoy, just consent or allow)to more sex simply because you make more is going to improve your happiness and sense of worth how?

Your self esteem is truly in the toilet, Hold. How did you become so dependent on others for your sense of worth? If that doesn't bring the self esteem plunging nothing would.

Just the thought that you would feel better about yourself by having more sex with someone who doesn't really want sex with you, just your buying power, is very disturbing.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 08:57 PM
Have you mentioned to her you are contemplating divorce when the kids graduate?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by nams
And more sex with a woman who is motivated to consent (not enjoy, just consent or allow)to more sex simply because you make more is going to improve your happiness and sense of worth how?

Oh no. You are right. It won't. It might have 18 or 15 or 13 years ago. Back before I realized how little enjoyment she gets from it. Now it doesn't help. Which is why I no longer press for it.

I still resent her for not providing more. But I don't feel any better on the relatively infrequent occassions when she does.

Originally Posted by nams
Your self esteem is truly in the toilet, Hold. How did you become so dependent on others for your sense of worth? If that doesn't bring the self esteem plunging nothing would.

I have always felt this way. Been dependent on others for self esteem. I have never had any internally generated sense of self worth.

Originally Posted by nams
Just the thought that you would feel better about yourself by having more sex with someone who doesn't really want sex with you, just your buying power, is very disturbing.

Agreed. But that simply means that at the present time I have no way to feel better about myself. Because I cannot ethically be with someone who truly desires me. And I cannot do well enough at work to avoid feeling like a failure. So I continue to slog along hoping for lightning to strike.

Mrs. Hold got me lottery tickets for Father's Day. Needless to say, we did not win.

Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Have you mentioned to her you are contemplating divorce when the kids graduate?

Yes. I told her several times. That I cannot make any promises about our future after the kids leave. That I am mostly staying to be with the kids and live in the house. That it is tremendously painful for me, on a daily basis, to remain married to her.

She has told me several times lately she feels, on balance, glad she married me. She feels I am a good person and a great father and she wants to stay together despite her disappointment. I never say the same back to her. I tell her she is a good person with a big heart who means well. I am sure it hurts her when I do not mirror her sentiment. Then again, it is not like I did not tell her continuously for 8 years during MC that I was unhappy. Or that I haven't told her numerous times over the past 5 years (since we stopped MC) that I still am.

Lately we have been much more honest with each other. Or more accurately, she has finally been willing to be honest with me (and herself). Perhaps over time this honesty will lead to renewed respect and a willingness on both our parts to make additional changes in our behavior. I am staying for at least the next 5 years regardless. So I continue to hope for change even as I despair of either of us choosing to make any.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 09:13 PM
Been to the basement, lately, to see if you really do have "Healing the Shame that Binds Us", Hold?

You promised.

LA
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 09:44 PM
I don't have the time right now to do justice to what I want to say.

At the moment, I am trying to use Steve Harley to get my wife to move from an attitude that Hold thinks he would envy, so I also feel a bit unqualified to give anyone advice.

This does prompt me to start a new thread, taking up on one from last year, about financial security and domestic support.

Let me say this: How much good do you think you can do the children by setting an example of an arrangement where both of you are always keeping score, and always coming up short in the eyes of each other, and of yourselves? You do realize, don't you, that until you learn to resolve the attitude problems you have now, that neither one of you will be able to find the happiness you want with any other person - so why not start changing now? Neither one of you can give this a fair shot with divorce when the children leave out there as an option, much less a goal. Don't even think about it. Give 100% effort to fixing the problems by focusing on what's good until the children are grown, then see where you are.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/20/10 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Let me say this: How much good do you think you can do the children by setting an example of an arrangement where both of you are always keeping score, and always coming up short in the eyes of each other, and of yourselves?

I don't think I am setting a very good example for the kids. I just think I would set an even worse example divorced. Right now I have a little bit of a life outside my marriage. And Mrs. Hold and I are basically pleasant to one another. After divorce I would be worthless (no life, sit in my apartment staring at the walls) and if the kids are still living with us, Mrs. Hold and I would wage nuclear war. If the kids are gone I don't think we would have much to fight about. No custody issues. No child support issues. Not much property to split up (equity in the house should just about cover our credit card bills, so we equalize 401(k) plans and we're done). Mrs. Hold will get whatever spousal support the court gives her and that is it.

Quote
You do realize, don't you, that until you learn to resolve the attitude problems you have now, that neither one of you will be able to find the happiness you want with any other person - so why not start changing now?

I agree that I would have to become much healthier before I could expect to have a successful relationship with another woman. I don't expect to ever be healthier. Or to find happiness. I think Mrs. Hold probably can find happiness. She claims to have been happy for most of our marriage. I think she could easily be happy with someone else.

Quote
Neither one of you can give this a fair shot with divorce when the children leave out there as an option, much less a goal. Don't even think about it. Give 100% effort to fixing the problems by focusing on what's good until the children are grown, then see where you are.

I do not believe it is possible for me to fix the problem. I gave it my best shot for 8 years. The frustration of trying and making zero progress was overwhelming. The goal is the only thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. 1866 days to go.

If someone is going to fix this problem, it will have to be Mrs. Hold. And she has given zero indication that she wants it fixed. As she said, she is disappointed but on balance is content where she is. Whether she will continue to be content 5 years from now remains to be seen.

I have posted on another board. I want to be in love with my wife. But I am too beaten down to reach out to her. She will have to reach out to me. I would run to her arms if she did. But if she doesn't, I will stay huddled in my corner. Which is where I think she sits. On the other side of the room. Huddled in her corner. Both too afraid to reach out. She rejects me to pre-empt me hurting her. I understand the mechanism. That doesn't mean I am willing to keep getting body parts handed to me on a plate.

She recently said "I hardly ever wake you up when you are sleeping. I think it is rude." I replied "the difference is, when you wake me up, I am glad to see my beautiful wife looking down at me. I am glad to be woken up by you. When I wake you up, you cut me a new orifice."
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 01:35 PM
Last night I walked in the door and said hello. My daughter came running to give me a hug. My wife yelled at me for making noise. That about sums it up.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 05:36 PM
Just got a cold call from a stock broker. He asked if I wanted to buy some bonds. I told him I have no investable assets so I can't help him. He said "come on, you have been a lawyer for 25 years. Don't tell me you don't have any money. Don't lie to me. Lawyers aren't supposed to lie."

It was the truth. Boy am I depressed.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 06:17 PM
Go home and tell your wife about that conversation.

Tell her you really do want her to work and pay back what she stole from the family. How much you'd like to see a separate account for her paychecks to go into, so you guys can buy bonds together, out of it, someday.

She can work and still get the kids where they need to go. You know she can. Believe in her...urge her for this amends...because even if you refuse to stop hating yourself...doesn't mean she has to...

as she does...

Be bigger than you are today and layout some redemption. Maybe then, inside you, you'll choose differently.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
Go home and tell your wife about that conversation.

Happy to. She'll just think I am even more pathetic.

Quote
Tell her you really do want her to work and pay back what she stole from the family. How much you'd like to see a separate account for her paychecks to go into, so you guys can buy bonds together, out of it, someday.

Happy to. I don't have enough orifices. Just got the hemerrhoids to stop bleeding. Guess it is time to open another wound.

Quote
Believe in her...urge her for this amends...because even if you refuse to stop hating yourself...doesn't mean she has to...

as she does...

????? dontknow As she does what? Hmmm. Doesn't mean she has to hate me. As she does? Wait, I thought I was the one who hated me? You mean she hates me too?

Or are you saying she hates herself? And working might help her stop hating herself? Man I am so confused.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 07:40 PM
She hates herself, too, Hold. Not you.

Yep.

What she thinks of you is her business. And I think you lie. You say she'll think you more pathetic when that's what you're thinking of yourself, right after that stock broker's call.

I think you add to the depth and injury she does...you hand her the scapel and guide her hand. You have your part.

You won't nurse your wounds...you won't heal them...so you only see rejection coming from her. When the choice to NOT heal is you rejecting yourself...and she gets the double-blame.

Resentment ties us in knots, poisons our reasoning and uses lies to do so. The payoff is pathetic...

you aren't.

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/21/10 08:12 PM
HOLD, it would be good if you hung out with non toxic friends who would be encouraging and accepting. If you are around people like your wife only, you may get used to having a bad or negative view of yourself.

Around other normal, nice folks, you could see that you are FINE, your income is FINE, higher than most, and it is your WIFE who has the ego problem wanting more and more money that she does not have to work for herself. She does not realize that money, even big money, will not heal inner wounds nor will it make you more accepted and loved in this world by others.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 01:35 PM
We chatted for a few minutes last night on the phone. We agreed that we are better off than 90%+ of the people in the world but neither of us will stop beating the other person up for what they can't provide.

When I got home Mrs. Hold continued to be chilly. I spent an hour with her but then got tired of being rejected so I left to play PS3. Woke up this morning and she rolled over into the "maybe you can snuggle with me if you don't press for sex" position. Usually I find that irresistable. Today I was not even tempted to roll toward her, much less touch her. I am starting to despise myself for wanting to touch her. For settling for crumbs. I could tell after I got up to get ready for work that she was confused by my refusal to roll toward her. She was looking for affirmation that I am still hooked.

I told her she is beautiful and wished her a nice day. She smiled. It never ceases to amaze me how willing she is to live in denial.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 01:46 PM
Hold, you are not even asking for ideas or strategies to break this dance. This sounds like a diary of two people trapped in a snowed-in cabin or on a desert island together, recording the dwindling supply of food and water.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 01:51 PM
Not just her, Hold. You deny that you have any control over you self esteem and continue to find ways in which you are a failure. I'm dangerously close to saying what many here have said which is to find value in yourself, be a more positive thinker. Not that easy or simple even if you did desire that.

Maybe this grove you have going in your head is the equivalent to what people addicted to substances feel. They must have "it" to feel "normal" regardless of the fact that "normal" is killing them. It's all self abuse.

Maybe you need to reach rock bottom in self loathing. Did you chose to value yourself by not seeking crumbs when your W showed she would allow some touch?
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 02:00 PM
Adding to that, you and your wife need to stop for just a while thinking about all that above you that you have not achieved and don't have, and ask yourselves how you would handle what others are experiencing, of your income falling to half what it is today, or one third, or a fourth? Better to examine that now, and the core beliefs behind your attitudes about money, success, self-esteem vs self-respect.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Hold, you are not even asking for ideas or strategies to break this dance. This sounds like a diary of two people trapped in a snowed-in cabin or on a desert island together, recording the dwindling supply of food and water.

Correct. I am not trying to break the dance. I am merely trying to endure the next 5 years. Then I can break the dance permanently.

To break the dance I would have to succeed at work. Then either Mrs. Hold would respect me and be in love with me and happiness would reign. Or I could afford to divorce her and find someone else. In all cases, the path to happiness runs through my career success. Problem is, I do not believe I am capable of career success. I cannot summon the will to even try. If I try and fail, it is on me. If I sit in my cesspool of hatred and self-loathing, and focus on my marital woes, then I can tell myslf my failure is all on her. Since I believe I am going to fail either way, might as well blame it on her.

Nams: How do I feel about not rolling toward her? Hard to say. So conflicted inside. I want the crumbs. I have no hope of getting more than crumbs. I feel a small pride that I said no. But maybe that is not pride. Maybe that is my sick masochistic glee in knowing that my rejection of her will only tear our relationship further apart. I will hate her more. She will not be motivated to provide more than crumbs. She will feel rejected as well. We will further withdraw from one another. Another brick will be placed onto the wall.

I have chronicled our relatively honest talks here the past few days. We both recognize the mechanisms involved. She has not offered to make herself more available physically any more than I have offered to make additional efforts at work. We have both chosen to "stand pat". As Retread says, we are sitting in the cabin watching the supplies dwindle. Waiting for death to arrive. Well, I am. Not sure what she is doing. Sometimes I think she is like me. Sees it but can't bring herself to change. Other times I think she is in denial. Unwilling to accept that the supplies are dwindling.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Adding to that, you and your wife need to stop for just a while thinking about all that above you that you have not achieved and don't have, and ask yourselves how you would handle what others are experiencing, of your income falling to half what it is today, or one third, or a fourth? Better to examine that now, and the core beliefs behind your attitudes about money, success, self-esteem vs self-respect.

If my income fell substantially, that might be welcome. If it continued for a substantial period, at my age, the divorce judge would have to accept that I will never again earn this much. There goes much of Mrs. Hold's support obligation. Plus, if my income dropped significantly, then she would HAVE to get a job. Ca-ching, my support payment just went down again!

Plus, we are at the "sour spot" where we don't qualify for financial aid for college but can't afford to make the payments ourselves. If my income disappeared, the kids would qualify for more financial aid. At half my current income, between the income taxes I don't have to pay and the increased financial aid my kids get, I might actually clear more during the 6 - 10 years of higher education than I will clear at my current income level.

I know. I am fooling myself. It probably won't work out that well. I would probably be miserable. My kids would suffer. Now who is living in a fantasy land?
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 02:28 PM

"I am not trying to break the dance. I am merely trying to endure the next 5 years. Then I can break the dance permanently."

This kind of thinking reminds me of people who are very frugal. They live a life focused on what they will do when can be free of the "need" for frugality. But, years of living a particular life style has ingrained thoughts and behaviors they can't, and don't, want to change.

Will your self loathing disappear the day your possible divorce happens?

You keep coming up with reasons nothing can change until you're away from Mrs. H. Though your jobs plays a part in not allowing yourself to feel pride. This is putting her in charge of your self worth, or your job, or your level of income. There is always some outside source making it impossible for you to find value in yourself.

"In all cases, the path to happiness runs through my career success."

Then perhaps your definition of career success needs to be examined. Less emphasis on earning top money. More emphasis on finding value in what you do and how you do it. If you were complete s..t at your job you'b be out on the street.

"I feel a small pride that I said no."

Stop here. Feel the pride you didn't accept what would not make you feel good. End of story. Stop over analyzing what it might mean and how she might react. This is your choice to be proud of. You don't need to share that with anyone. It was a good choice and you felt pride. Let it go at that.

Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by Retread
Adding to that, you and your wife need to stop for just a while thinking about all that above you that you have not achieved and don't have, and ask yourselves how you would handle what others are experiencing, of your income falling to half what it is today, or one third, or a fourth? Better to examine that now, and the core beliefs behind your attitudes about money, success, self-esteem vs self-respect.

If my income fell substantially, that might be welcome. If it continued for a substantial period, at my age, the divorce judge would have to accept that I will never again earn this much. There goes much of Mrs. Hold's support obligation. Plus, if my income dropped significantly, then she would HAVE to get a job. Ca-ching, my support payment just went down again!

Plus, we are at the "sour spot" where we don't qualify for financial aid for college but can't afford to make the payments ourselves. If my income disappeared, the kids would qualify for more financial aid. At half my current income, between the income taxes I don't have to pay and the increased financial aid my kids get, I might actually clear more during the 6 - 10 years of higher education than I will clear at my current income level.

I know. I am fooling myself. It probably won't work out that well. I would probably be miserable. My kids would suffer. Now who is living in a fantasy land?

Show this to your wife http://www.globalrichlist.com/
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by nams
Will your self loathing disappear the day your possible divorce happens?

No. Certainly not. I don't expect divorce to "fix" me. I don't expect to ever be fixed. I think not living with her will remove one external reminder of how far I fall short of expectations. But I am confident I will find other ways to torture myself after she is gone.

Quote
There is always some outside source making it impossible for you to find value in yourself.

No. It is within me. I hate myself, and I cannot imagine ever stopping that. Divorce is not about freeing me to thrive. I am never going to thrive. Divorce is about not having someone else slice little pieces off every night. I do a sufficiently good job of that all by myself, thank you.

While our kids are home, living with them makes it worthwhile for me to accept her cuts. After the kids are gone, there is much less reason for me to take crap from her. Not that this is all her fault. I am my own worst enemy. I don't fail because I take her crap. I fail on my own. I take her crap because I don't believe I deserve better.

Quote
More emphasis on finding value in what you do and how you do it. If you were complete s..t at your job you'b be out on the street.

As you say, I don't do a complete s**t job. But I make enough mistakes that I cannot afford to go out on my own or take a position where I am the only one at my firm who knows how to do this. Things will fall through the cracks. I need to be here where there are enough colleagues who understand this stuff that someone always catches what I miss.

Do I also catch their mistakes? Yes, sometimes I do. As you say, I am not completely without value. But having something to offer and being fully competent in my own right are 2 entirely different things.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/22/10 03:16 PM
The calculator you linked to is incorrect. There are many more rich people than it indicates.

The IRS Statistics of Income for 2008 says that there were about 4,400,000 returns filed for 2008 showing adjusted gross income in excess of 200,000 (out of 142.5 million returns total). The calculator you linked to reports that a person earning $200,000 per year is the 786,570 richest person in the world. So they are off by a factor of 6, and that is just in the USA. When you take the whole world into account, they are off by at least an order of magnitude.

Not surprising that they would be tempted to "fudge" the numbers. They want people to feel rich and blessed and guilty so they give money. They seem to be devoting the donations to worthy causes. I guess the ends justify the means.

Still, if I tell my wife "there are only about 60 million people in the world richer than us, out of 6 billion", we are right where she and I were yesterday. Consciously aware that we are in the top 1%. But not feeling very appreciative. More conscious of how far we have fallen shorts of our hopes and expectations than of how much farther down we could fall.
Posted By: jhj75 Stuff - 07/22/10 06:17 PM
Hold, I haven't posted to this forum for years, but I've continued to follow your story. Certain aspects of your story always resonated with mine. I was married for 10 years to my ex-wife, with a young child (who's now 11). She destroyed my credit, hid debt from me, got debt in my name, refused to have sex, etc etc. I'm sure if you look up my old posts you can find my story. My ex also cheated on me constantly.

Like you I felt worthless and beat down. Depressed all the time. Wondered if this was what I deserved, etc, etc.

I was honestly at the point where I wondered if I should continue on, if you know what I mean. Then I dug up the courage and finally left my wife. The prospect scared me as much as staying with her, but I knew if I didn't my kid would probably not have a dad for too much longer.

We were already in the red financially every month, so we both had to file bankruptcy. I felt super depressed and bad for a good 6 months, in addition to living in a crappy apartment and eating noodles day in and day out. But you know what?

I got through it.

After the bankruptcy went thru that gave me a little more breathing room. My kid turned out to be just fine after the divorce. I started healing.

I tried dating but ran away from any woman who gave me a red alarm that she was ANYTHING like my ex. So I didn't really date much. But then 3 years into it I met the love of my life. I never knew what love truly was before that. Or what it was like to actually have someone truly care about your feelings and love you. (And yes, sex came with the total package).

It's been a couple years, and we've since married. If you'd have asked me 6 years ago if I thought I'd be financially stable, married to a wonderful woman, and really living the life of my dreams, what do you think I would have said? Hell No.

Don't really know why I'm posting this to you. You won't make a decision until you're willing to make a decision. But I think you owe it to yourself to truly consider getting a divorce. Your kids will be fine. You'll be fine. Do you really want your kids growing up thinking that what you and their mom has is a normal relationship?

I'm going back to lurkdom, but I just want you to know that you're in my prayers and I think you deserve at least a chance of being happy. Or at least to not be so damn sad all the time.

Jason
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 01:24 PM
JHJ, you may be right. We should probably get divorced and both be happier.

Last night I told Mrs. Hold she looked nice in her low cut top. She said it was creepy the way I look at her sometimes. I said "yes, I know it bothers you. I try not to stare. You look so good it is hard to resist." She said it creeped her out sometime. I said "it is an unfortunate interaction between us. You are understandably sensitive. I am particularly needy. It really doesn't work well together." She started to freak out "what, so it is all on me, all my fault?" I said "no, it is our interaction. I want sex and need sex and that puts pressure on you and you cannot tolerate any pressure." She started screaming "so it is all me? All my fault? Nothing on you?" I calmly replied "no, that is not what I said, I said it was a combination of both of us." She said "don't you think you are way out on the far end of the scale?" I said "no, actually, I think on the range of husbands I am probably less demanding than most, but you cannot tolerate any pressure at all so any non-zero pressure from me causes problems." Again she screamed at me about putting all the blame on her. I said "I am not blaming you. I am just describing how it feels to me. Every night I come home and my heart is cut out from my chest and sliced into little pieces and left out in the sun to rot." She said "so I am never entitled to feel icky? Never entitled to not be in the mood?" I said "of course you can be icky sometimes. But you reject me overwhelmingly." She said "I hardly ever turn you down." I said "of course not, because I hardly ever ask. But what about the many nights I come home from work and before I can even say hello you warn me that you feel icky or tired or not well or that I should be quiet because you are trying to rest. You don't think those are pre-emptive rejections? Well they are to me. You reject me all the time."

Then she asked "so what are we going to do about it? Well, what do you want to do?" I said "nothing. This is an irresolvable problem. We have been working on it for 13 years. Neither of us is going to change. All couples have irresovable differences. Some can't agree on whether sushi is edible. It is a shame that our irresolvable difference is about something so important." She asked again what we are going to do about it. I said "nothing. You are a nice person. I am a nice person. We are going to stay married and raise our children together."

She grabbed her nightie and went into the bathroom to change.

If I had any guts or any self-esteem I would have said that we are going to get divorced and each try to find happiness elsewhere.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 01:48 PM
It is not too late to have a second conversation and answer with the truth.

The truth is either things have to change or you are outta there. Why should she change at all, ever, if she knows you wont leave no matter how much bad treatment she dishes out?

Remember, this woman does not care about YOU. But pressure might make her want to change, and in changing to save the marriage, she just may start caring about others instead of just herself.

I feel you have allowed her to be infantile, selfish, ruling with her anger, hostile, all of these and this has not helped you, her, or the kids.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
The truth is either things have to change or you are outta there.

But that is not the truth. The truth is that things have to change or I will be miserable. But I won't leave even if I am miserable. She despises me for not having enough guts to leave. But she likes the status quo so she is perfectly willing to allow me to stay miserable if it keeps her in her house and not having to work.

If I said I was divorcing her, would she provide more sex? Almost certainly not. You should have seen how she freaked out last night when I suggested she was overly sensitive to pressure. No, she would get angry and make the divorce a living h3ll for me.

It is very clear to me that I am being abused. Or at least reacting like a victim of abuse. I see what the other person is doing. I see how they control me through fear. And I continue to allow it. I don't see myself as strong and empowered. I don't feel like I can file for divorce and get a good lawyer and get a decent settlement. I feel powerless. Just like a victim of abuse. And even seeing it, I continue to let it happen.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
The calculator you linked to is incorrect. There are many more rich people than it indicates.

The IRS Statistics of Income for 2008 says that there were about 4,400,000 returns filed for 2008 showing adjusted gross income in excess of 200,000 (out of 142.5 million returns total). The calculator you linked to reports that a person earning $200,000 per year is the 786,570 richest person in the world. So they are off by a factor of 6, and that is just in the USA. When you take the whole world into account, they are off by at least an order of magnitude.

I'll take your word for it Hold. Besides it doesn't matter anyway. Money won't solve your problem.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 02:11 PM
But you are getting closer and closer to the truth. When you finally reach that TRUTH that says that divorce will be hard but you will survive just fine, then you will feel a whole lot better. Why not contact some of your attorney buddies about getting a post nup agreement going? That creep should not be able to abuse you, use you, steal from you, lie to you, and then get a lot of money in the divorce also!!

It is no wonder you dont have more motivation to make more money. I would'nt either with a spouse like that. She is no better than a common criminal.
Posted By: mr_anderson Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
...I am a nice person. We are going to stay married and raise our children together."
...But that is not the truth. The truth is that things have to change or I will be miserable. But I won't leave even if I am miserable. She despises me for not having enough guts to leave. But she likes the status quo so she is perfectly willing to allow me to stay miserable if it keeps her in her house and not having to work.
Mr. Hold...you and me both are in a somewhat similar situations...and we're both "nice guys"...

my I suggest a book for you to read...you can even buy the eBook for about 10 bucks...i read the book in one day (when I should've been working)...

The book is called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert A. Glover...I think you'll find it informative...
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 02:38 PM
Hold, I didn't look at the calculator, just want to say that income has little to do with wealth. If you make $400,000 a year and spend $500,000, you are less wealthy than the guy making $50,000 a year who has $100,000 in savings and $80,000 in home equity.

Income is how much you earn.

Wealth is how much you own vs how much you owe.

Some people 'look' wealthy and are mortgaged out their rear. If you can liquidate your assets and have something left, that's your wealth.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
It is no wonder you dont have more motivation to make more money. I would'nt either with a spouse like that. She is no better than a common criminal.

That is why I am so surprised she hasn't dumped me. I can't believe she hasn't figured out that I long since stopped trying to succeed. She seems to believe I am trying and failing and that if I keep plugging away, some day my efforts will be rewarded. I can't believe that she hasn't figured out the truth.

Mr. Anderson

Own the book. Participate in the web forum under the same screen name as here.

I think NMMNG is wonderful and I often suggest it to guys here. I urge you to do the BFE's and break free. I have decided not to. Hopefully you will choose more wisely.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by CWMI
Some people 'look' wealthy and are mortgaged out their rear. If you can liquidate your assets and have something left, that's your wealth.

Understood. I have zero wealth. Equity in our house would just about balance out our credit card debts. If I liquidated everything, there would be nothing left. That is what was so depressing about the cold call from the broker. He could not imagine that someone who had been a lawyer for 20+ years has no savings. But it is true. I don't.

Bubbles

I don't need a post nup. I have no assets to protect. A post-nup that said "she gets no support" would not be enforceable. A post-nup that said "she gets none of my assets" would be irrelevant. Psot-nups are for people who have enough income and assets that their ex-spouse could live on far less than what they would get under the "default rule". The difference between the minimum a judge would accept under a post-nup and what she would get without one isn't worth paying lawyers to argue over. That is the benefit of my not having made any career progress in 10 years. She isn't going to get much in the divorce, because there isn't much to get.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
That is why I am so surprised she hasn't dumped me. I can't believe she hasn't figured out that I long since stopped trying to succeed. She seems to believe I am trying and failing and that if I keep plugging away, some day my efforts will be rewarded. I can't believe that she hasn't figured out the truth.

Here's an idea---TELL HER!!!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Stuff - 07/23/10 03:02 PM
HOLD, your wife has to live in denial and keep telling herself that someday you will make the big money she wants and expects. After all, she does not love you, this money (actually the hope of the money) is all there is for her. And since she is not willing to work...or help out financially, then she has to continue to lie to herself.

If she told herself the truth, that you would never make a big huge income, then she might be unhappy. She is probably way to lazy to leave you regardless of if she faces the truth occasionally.

Possibly the reason she exudes so much constant inner hostility is because the truth seeps in to her psyche occasionally and she cannot stand it.

She is a real piece of work. It would enhance your life so much if she did leave you.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:07 PM
HEY! I got an idea!!! Instead of a post nup, do a "work slowdown". You know, like slaves used to do with the Plantation Owners.

Start gradually slowing down at work, then curtail her credit cards gradually...so gradually that for a while she does not notice. Curtail or eliminate any "allowance" for that criminal.

Then, develop a plan to make less and less at work over 5 years time.

Since you are like an "abuse victim" you should have a secret bank account or two you can shovel a bit of money into each month. Or, a safe deposit box somewhere that she cannot get her greedy paws on.

See if you can get her to take on a job.

Then, you will have the upper hand in a divorce.

I know you can do this, HOLD!!!!
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
HEY! I got an idea!!! Instead of a post nup, do a "work slowdown". You know, like slaves used to do with the Plantation Owners.

Then, you will have the upper hand in a divorce.

I know you can do this, HOLD!!!!

Bubbles you crack me up. And Bubbles does not fit you at all.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:28 PM
LOL,LOL!!!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:31 PM
Sadly, HOLD is like a slave:

1. He puts up with bad treatment
2. He does not know how to be free
3. He accepts her power over him
4. He nods and shuffles around as she abuses him
5. He works hard daily just like she wants
6. He contributes everything to the household
7. She, like a slave owner lounges around and contributes nothing
8. He keeps that "plantation" going while she lounges.
9. He even cares for the children so she can laze and relax
10. He is now brainwashed into being a CAPTIVE rather than having FREEDOM

Geeze it is more like slavery than I even thought!!!!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:32 PM
Time for the slave to REVOLT!!!! Or, plan a careful future escape to freedom!!!!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:41 PM
Hold,

When she yells/screams/shouts...remove yourself. No matter how much you want to say what you want to say, repeat what you just said or repeat again...

stop.

You don't feel empowered because you stay present for the abuse. You lecture, dissuade, persuade...while she verbally abuses you.

"Yelling is abusive"

and just leave the room.

She continues, leave the house.

Seriously.

For you, no stating beyond that, no respect or decency (because I know you don't choose to do those, like radical honesty).

You remove because that's your most basic, necessary boundary.

See, I think you don't say, and don't say some more, until you just gotta say, provocatively, parentally, and then you lay the yelling at her feet.

No daily boundary of sharing your opinion (in tidy bits).

No "Ouch" when she says to her your stare is disturbing (and think of how she could be setting you up for a restraining order)...

Nope. We know you choose not to free yourself, act from respect, love and honor the marriage...we get it.

Do the minimal because...when you don't (and you don't), you are doing harm, manipulation, dishonesty and disrespect.

I think you have a ton of "got to's" in your head, behind your thoughts, justifying your way...which keeps your self-hatred at a comfortably optimal level.

She isn't the villain...nor are you. You're both partners in crime, IMO. Using the children to justify your patterns as you keep doing harm.

And looking so nice and lovable, tolerant, long-suffering.

Pain is necessary; suffering is optional.

You're addicted.

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 03:57 PM
Pain is necessary; suffering is optional.

You're addicted.


I've told you this before, Hold...

God doesn't want you to be miserable. Why do you want to be miserable? Does being miserable allow you to hold something over your wife's head?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 04:22 PM
I do say ouch. I do leave the room. Why do you think I spend most nights in another room playing PS3?

We even discussed that last night. I mentioned that I leave the room when she is mean to me. She says "that is your only response? To leave the room?"

I should have said "yes, that is the appropriate response when you are yelling at me or continuing to hurt my feelings after I say ouch. I leave when you won't stop hurting me."

And this morning she said she was going out to dinner tonight. I asked "out to dinner?", because I was not aware we had plans. She said "oh, not with you" in a dismissive tone. I said "ouch!" She said "oops, that didn't come out right, I meant that you don't have to leave work early because I am going to dinner with a couple of the ladies from the gym."

But you are correct in the big picture. I am addicted to the pain. To staying with her. To coming here and rolling in the muck. If I weren't addicted, I would leave.

The good news is that I picked more berries and made 2 more pints of jam last night while Mrs. Hold was at a movie with her girlfriends. That makes 6 pints this year. 2 chocolate raspberry with creme de cocoa. 2 orange raspberry with grand marnier. And 2 peach raspberry with peach shnappes. D13 made brownies and we gave the brownies and some jam to our new neighbor who moved in last week. She said it was OK for me to pick berries from the vines on her side of the property line.

Hmmm, Mrs. Hold going out with the gals 2 nights in a row. The other gals are married and their husbands make alot more than me so I don't think they are going cruising for guys. Then again, if Mrs. Hold left me for some other guy, might not be the worst thing for me. Assuming she marries him so I am off the hook for support. Yeah right, like I could get that lucky. Oh well, a boy can dream, can't he? But I know God will not make it that easy on me. Soolee, you have your view of what God has in store for me. I have mine.

Speaking og God, D13 agreed to lead a part of services tomorrow, so we are going together. I am glad that she said yes when the cantor asked her. That she doesn't feel "over and done" with religion now that she has graduated from Sunday school. But I am not sure what I should pray for.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 06:30 PM
You do ouch, but you didn't in the exchange you just told us about.

You do removal, but you didn't in that same exchange.

You do and you do not. That's all there is...

and your "Ouch" DOES NOT MEAN SHE'S HURTING YOU.

How irresponsible and arrogant that is...

You know better than that.

Your wife is hurting and you don't care....you don't do amends for your stuff and you don't ask for them from her...

you keep that hurt cycle going around and around, keeping that rejection coming like a faucet...inside and out.

and you know you're doing harming, causing hurt, and pain...

and you don't do differently.

You have all the tools...God has reached inside your life, again and again, and laid them all out...and I have no doubt he feels rejected by you, again and again...because you are his artwork and you trash what he made by hating yourself.

And you don't think you couldn't make some cool side cash selling your pints? Because they sound dreamy...like worth $20 each in your neighborhood.

LA
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
And you don't think you couldn't make some cool side cash selling your pints? Because they sound dreamy...like worth $20 each in your neighborhood.

LA

I was thinking the same thing! I'd pay a lot for those. Yum.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 08:05 PM
Soolee, you have your view of what God has in store for me. I have mine.

Have you considered taking your troubles to your Rabbi, Hold?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 09:04 PM
MIL sent me an e-mail today. She said the chocolate raspberry jam was amazing. She was surprised that an Ivy League lawyer could be so adept in the kitchen. Trying to hold onto that as a good feeling.

Yeah, I got a lot of shoulds and shouldn'ts rattling around inside my head.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 09:20 PM
I won't elaborate on what the ladies have said today. Read their posts again, Hold.

Your wife is no more happy with this arrangement than you are.

Forget the slow withdrawal from her spending attempts to soothe herself. Cut up the cards. Pay cash for Dave Ramsey's book, Total Money Makeover. With your income, you could be out of debt in a year.

Tell your wife the truth. It will be hard to do without sounding like blaming, but she didn't make you less productive at work. You did that. She just broke your heart, and you were unable to leave that a home.

Don't even discuss SF. Discuss the money problem, the attitude problems you both have. You aren't going to clean up your side of the street for sex. Neither is she. Right now, the two of you have to bring some financial sanity to your arrangement and stop punishing each other. By the time you accomplish that, it will be a whole new playing field for SF.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 09:39 PM
I know she didn't make me unproductive. I know I did that. Am still doing that.

Retread, do you have an e-mail address I could use to contact you off the boards?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 09:51 PM
It is not so much about how you dont make as much as you think you should, it is about HOW MUCH SHE SPENDS!!!!

AND HER ABUSE!

"Keep on shufflin....."
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 09:57 PM
No Bubbles, it isn't. Yes, she overspent by a bunch. But Retread is correct. She broke my heart and I could not leave that home and succeed at work. If I were a senior partner today, I could earn back in 2 or 3 years what she overspent. Now that kind of income is beyond my reach. Which is my fault for allowing her behavior to control mine.

This is about me and my choices. I have given in to revenge rather than rising above her provocations.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/23/10 10:37 PM
Hold,
I have an email just for this forum. You can keep it anonymous, if you like.
mbretread@yahoo.com
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/27/10 01:11 PM
Hold, what's happening?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 04:48 PM
Retread, I wanted to stop hijacking the other thread.

My wife did massively overspend in the past. All our savings. Ran up huge credit card debts. Hid it and lied about it. Then she kept spending after her misbehavior was discovered.

Our current financial problems are not caused by her overspending. Eventually I got separate checking acocunts and she gave up all her credit cards. She now lives on a strict allowance. Every so often she falls off the wagon and buys something that was not authorized. Maybe she takes a credit card out of my wallet and buys something online. Or she uses an online account tied to one of my cards.

But these days the financial problems are my fault as well. I do not insist that we live within our means. I threw big parties for my son and daughter and put them on credit cards. I could not bear to not "keep up with the Joneses" as to my kids. Those 2 parties are half our credit card debt.

Another 1/4 is when I weakened and gave Mrs. Hold back a card for a few months last year when we had finally paid off (10 years later) most of the debt from her first fiasco. My fault for not standing strong and insisting she live without them permanently. Yes, she chose to overspend. But I made it possible.

At this point, I am not willing to cut back on our lifestyle to the point where we can pay off the debt quickly. So I am as much to blame as she is. A big part of this is my guilt over not being as successful as I should be. I feel I should be able to afford to live the way we live.

We live at the low end of our community. I do most of my shopping on Ebay or at Walmart and the Dollar Tree store. I pick berries and make jam. We have cut way back on going out to dinner and cook almost all our meals at home. I make my son buy much of his sports equipment used. I cannot bear to cut back further. But since I don't have enough money to pay the electric bill this month, we may have to. Now I am going to have to tell my wife to turn off the air conditioning in August? And I am not supposed to feel like a failure?
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 05:44 PM
You have too much income to not be able to get out of debt in a hurry. I guarantee you it could be done in a year or something close to it. Things would be different if you were out of work, or unable to work. I've been there, hobbling around the house from one piece of furniture to the next, from an income like yours to zero, and not even knowing when I could start talking to anyone about working again. A lot of people have been there.

You need to think outside the box. I know lawyers who graduated at the top of the best schools and don't practice in NY, LA, or Chicago. They live in nice, smaller cities, in houses that cost 1/4 what the cost in those places, and make as much money as they could make there, because they have national clients who come to them. They live in the first house they bought when they were just married a few years, paid for, fixed up, added onto. They fly to NY on business, take the wife, see a play, and fly home with the money.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by retread
You have too much income to not be able to get out of debt in a hurry. I guarantee you it could be done in a year or something close to it.

Yes, if I were willing to make the required changes in lifestyle. I am not. Dot you realize what you are saying? Suppose my wife agreed to these changes? Then I could not blame her for our problems. Then I would have to take responsibility for our situation. Then I would not be able to feed my resentment and frustration toward her, and I would have to turn my attention inward. What are you trying to do, solve the problem? Who the heck wants to do that?

Originally Posted by retread
They live in nice, smaller cities, in houses that cost 1/4 what the cost in those places, and make as much money as they could make there, because they have national clients who come to them.

I already live in a smaller city in a house that costs 1/4 what it costs closer to NY. I tried to do what you suggest 10 years ago. Move to a smaller city, cheaper cost structure and make the same income. I actually got a substantial raise to come here over what I was making at a firm in a bigger city before (well, they paid me a fixed salary equal to what I made as salary plus bonus at the old place). Helped to pay off the debts from Mrs. Hold's fiasco.

But the years have gone by and I have not increased my income to match inflation, health care and college costs, etc. At this point the key is not to switch jobs, it is to gather clients who view me as their trusted advisor. I have been trying to do that for 10 years with zero success. I seem to lack whatever social skill or salesmanship is needed to close the deal with clients. Without clients of my own, there will be no increased income, whether at this firm or anywhere else.

Look, your advice is generally sound. I need to stop throwing a pity party and get moving on making changes. A rational person would do that. I won't. Hence my contention that you were wrong to say I am not ill or that I am being rational. I am being many things. Rational is far from being one of them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 07:26 PM
This article ( click here to link to article ) describes a guy who felt, years ago after his divorce, exactly how I imagine I would feel after divorce. He found someone who lifted him out of despondency. I can't imagine I ever would.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 09:00 PM
That was a really nice column. I don't know who Andrew Cohen is, nor have read anything else by him. He doesn't say why or how he failed to marry this woman. He doesn't say what went wrong with his marriage.

I do know this: when he met her, he didn't ever imagine he could be lifted out of his despondency, by someone else or himself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 10:02 PM
Exactly. Maybe the best thing I can do is to get divorced and find someone who can lift me out of my despondency. I have always felt that way was cheating the game of life. That is was like hoping for someone to "wave a magic wand and make it all better". Which is what I thought I was doing by marrying Mrs. Hold.

In the past I have suggested undergoing ECT. Because I feel I need to reboot my brain. Many here have warned against doing it. Some have based their objection on potential side effects. But many have said "it is a fools errand, you are looking for a magic wand, you have to do the hard work within yourself."

This article does offer hope. But not of the "put in the work and earn your salvation" variety. For the author, meeting that woman WAS like waving a magic wand. She lifted him out of despondency in a way he could not have done himself through sheer force of will.

The article clearly resonated with me. But I am not sure it offers a MB-approved solution.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/28/10 11:05 PM
Someone with more authority will have to speak to what is the MB Approved Solution. Dr. Harley does have an article on, "When to Call It Quits".

There is no guarantee you will find the woman with a magic wand. Few people do. I just say again, if you are even considering divorce later, at what you think will be a more opportune time, or if you think it is an unavoidable tragedy which you don't want, you owe it to yourself and your wife to start some frank and honest discussions about it now.

I think you make a lot of assumptions about why your wife married you, and why she did and didn't, and why she does and doesn't do this and that. She is probably making the same mind-reading, disrespectful judgements about your thoughts and motives. What do you have to lose by laying it on the table in small enough doses that you can both take the medicine? You can start by the same sort of three-sentence summaries you post here every day, then be stop for night and listen to her, let it sink in, don't dwell on it or drag it out by trying to air it all in one sitting. You can easily do that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 02:00 PM
I have told her everything. We were in marriage counselling for 8 years. We tried to implement the MB system. We failed. I have told her I am staying for the house and the kids, not to be with her. She has not offered to work on the relationship, and she will not tolerate relationship discussions. A couple of times lately I have said "I would really like us to be madly in love with each other. How do you feel about that?" She rolled her eyes and said something like "ugh, we aren't going to talk about us again, are we?"

She has made it clear that "I predict I will want to leave 5 years from now if things stay the same" is not sufficient motivation for her to change. She seems to believe that I don't have the guts to leave, ever. Neither of us will know whether I do or I don't until we get there. Until we confirm I do, discussions are pointless because she has made it clear she is not changing. Neither am I.

Moreover, even if she were willing to implement MB, I do not believe I am capable of meeting her needs. She needs someone who earns way more than I can ever hope to earn. She has openly admitted this recently. She is disappointed in my lack of career success. She may choose to stay with me. At least for now. Because she likes me as a person. But she does not feel romantic love for me. And she won't ever feel that unless and until I triple or quadruple my income.

I am too afraid to even attempt that. My fear. My fault. My problem. But unless I find the "magic wand" that changes that. Similar to what is described in the article. I don't see myself ever overcoming my fear. Eventually it will be too late to even try.

Divorce is not my choice as a path to happiness. I don't believe I will ever attain happiness. I am not willing to even try. Divorce is my path to stop getting my teeth kicked in every night.

Who knows. When the day arrives. Maybe my libido will have waned sufficiently that it won't feel like getting my teeth kicked in. Maybe I will be able to foregive myself for not leaving sooner. And forgive my wife for not being any braver than me. And learn once again to enjoy her company. And I will stay.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 04:09 PM
Quote
She may choose to stay with me. At least for now. Because she likes me as a person. But she does not feel romantic love for me. And she won't ever feel that unless and until I triple or quadruple my income.

News flash!
Tripling your income won't make you or your wife any happier than you are now. You have to be happy before you can become happier.

Happiness is influenced by outside circumstances, but it comes from within, by learning how to accept what you cannot change so much, and CHOOSING to focus on the good things in life instead of the bad.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 04:31 PM
She is currently unwilling to focus on anything other than money. I am currently unwilling to focus on anything other than sex. It is possible one or both of us may choose to change our focus in the future. Focusing on the good things would require me to forgive myself. And forgive her. Even if I were willing to do the latter (unlikely). I know I will never be willing to do the former. I enjoy beating myself up far to much to give that up. Not even for happiness.

And you are correct about the income. I doubled my income between 1996 and 2001. Mrs. Hold was no more interested in meeting my needs at $200,000 per year than she had been at $100,000 per year. In fact, our longest "drought" not associated with pregnancy was fall 2001 into spring of 2002. Right after I got this job and the last big bump in my income. So I am probably fooling myself to think that she would be any more interest at $400,000 than she is at $200,000.

Still more reason not to bother trying to get to $400,000.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 06:54 PM
HOLD, you are starting to sound like a ONE TRICK PONY.

Why not learn about 20 new tricks of how you are going to act and react and run your life?

Then you will not be limited to the same two bad coping devices and can creatively develop a good life for yourself.

Here is your one trick:

I am bad, my wife is bad and I cant change anything and nothing will change.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 07:09 PM
Okay, Mr Hold, now that you have figured out, "I am probably fooling myself to think that she would be any more interest at $400,000 than she is at $200,000", don't you think Mrs Hold could figure that out just as quickly?

Maybe you can't be romantically in love. Maybe you will have to settle for something less. But it doesn't have to be as much less as the two of you are making it by pretending it is about what it isn't. Setting up these extremes of high money are low sex are just a phony construction, and not just all of it by Mrs Hold.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 07:16 PM
Yes, it is sort of not making any logical sense anymore to reduce your marital problems to;

1. She wont give me sex because I dont make enough money for her to blow on junk.

2. I wont make more money due to her out of control spending habits , withholding sex, and verbal abuse.

Life and marriages are way more complex than simple issues of sex and money.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 07:31 PM
HOLD, If you got way down to the roots of things, you may feel better.

1. what is life for?
2. what is our purpose in life?
3. How do we love others?
4. Which people are we to love and which should we avoid?
5. How to best conduct a marriage?
6. What is a marriage for?
7. When is the purpose of marriage wrong?
8

There are 100 other things to look at in order to look deeply at the truths of your situation. Labeling your marriage a certain way without going deeper traps you in a bad situation and eliminates creative improvements you can and should make in your life and your marriage.

If you have given up on your wife and marriage, you may want to talk to yourself and find out why this is. You can encourage yourself not to give up on yourself or your marriage.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 07:47 PM
I have been diagnosed with ADHD. Some people lately have begun to see this condition as an inability to set goals and implements steps to achieve them. AHDH people can't sit still and can't concentrate because they cannot convince themselves that sitting still or concentrating will get them anything worth making the effort to curb their inclinations. Even when an objective observer would say the goal is more than worthwhile.

That seems to fit me. I have read that cognitive behavioral therapy can help with this condition. I have tried that before and it made no difference. Perhaps I should try again. Then again, maybe I should screw my courage to the sticking place and finally get ECT.

Time to call Behavioral Health Services.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 08:28 PM
I can certainly see why a man would not feel like working hard to provide financial support, and even be too depressed and unable to concentrate to do a good job of it, due to a wife who has no interest in affection, sexual relations, and probably comes up short in the Respect & Admiration departments, as well.

But, as several of us have said, there is more to this problem than just sex and money. It seems to me that both of you are comfortable with using this simplistic explanation in order to avoid facing the other, deeper sources of conflict.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 07/29/10 11:50 PM
Hi Hold,

You keep mentioning this magical 5 year mark with your wife. Have you considered that the way things are today (economically) your children may not move out right after high school graduation?

Its getting increasingly common for children to stay living with their parents until 23-25 (due to education costs, etc), so you may be in for a much longer ride than you imagine.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 12:40 AM
But the legal landscape is different. The custody and child support standards are different. Today if we divorce, she gets most of the custody and a hefty child support payment on top of spousal support. When both kids are legal adults, custody and support rules are different. I will still support my kids. But out of my pocket. Not with the sheriff requiring me to give the money to my ex-wife.

Moreover, I am somewhat less concerned about some jerk boyfriend of Mrs. Hold's molesting my daughter if she is 21 compared to if she is 15. At 21, either the kid can handle herself or she is just as much at risk from some jerk she meets on her own.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 12:46 AM
Not to sound rude, Hold, but why would your wife have a boyfriend if she has so little interest in SF? Instead of fantasizing all these scenarios, why not sit down with her and have a polite RH talk?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 02:53 PM
She would have the bf for his money. If she needed to have sex with him to keep him around, she would. After all, she had plenty of sex with me before we got married. I am not intending that as a character slur. I am no better. I would have a gf for the sex. If I had to buy her jewelry to get her to keep having sex with me, and I could afford it, I would buy the jewelry. I bought my wife a very expensive set of custom made earrings for our first anniversary. I stopped buying her jewlery after she pretty much stopped having sex with me. I am no better than her. We are the same.

Look, this is who I am and this is why I am married to my wife. It is not an accident that we are together. We both thought we married "above our heads". We were both tragically mistaken.

I couldn't believe she was willing to marry me. I figured she had low self esteem because she has bad skin (acne) and because she was a nice Jewish girl from New York who didn't quite fit in when her parents moved to South Carolina when she was in high school and she never recovered from being such an outsider. Of course, I did not know about the rapes back then.

She figured I had low self esteem because I was short and also had bad skin. She thought I was low libido because I had such limited sexual experience. She figured I "talked a big game", but if I really cared about sex as much as I claimed verbally, then I would have found a way to get some. She never realized that those traits which led to my failure at attracting women would carry over and produce failure in my career.

We thought we were 2 zit faces who would each overlook the other's flaws and build a wonderful life together. We did not realize that we were 2 deeply scarred human beings unable to break free of our past hurts, whose needs and shortcomings were perfectly aligned to produce heartbreak.

RH talk is not going to help here. We have had RH talk. She won't even try to overcome her anxieties regarding sex. I won't even try to overcome my anxieties regarding work. There is no "deal" available under which we each work on our weaknesses in order to motivate the other to work on theirs. The problem is not that each of us wants the other to "go first". The problem is that neither of us is willing to address our own problems at all. Even if our partner does "go first".

We are far past the point where Dr. H would say it is time to Call It Quits. Neither of us will do that. As you (Retread) pointed out on another thread, neither of us is willing to do the work to make any other relationship successful. So no point in getting out of this one.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 05:22 PM
I'm not buying your logic:
Quote
She would have the bf for his money. If she needed to have sex with him to keep him around, she would. After all, she had plenty of sex with me before we got married.

Then why doesn't she have sex with her husband to keep him around?
Because she needs more money to do that?

Why doesn't she look for a new man with more money?
Because "..neither of us is willing to do the work to make any other relationship successful"???

Like I said before, it isn't about money and sex.

Here's another mind game for the two of you. Have a RH discussion about your problems other than $$ and SF. Those are off limits. Pretend they don't exist. After all, both of you say they are insignificant amounts anyway. See what other issues you come up with.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Then why doesn't she have sex with her husband to keep him around?

Because he is staying whether she provides sex or not.

Originally Posted by Retread
After all, both of you say they are insignificant amounts anyway.

No, EACH of us says the other person's issue is insignficant. We both say our own issue is paramount.

Well, actually, I agree her issue is a biggie, I am just not willing to do anything to address it. She thinks mine is trivial, so she doesn't feel any need to address it.

The key question is "hey Hold, is there ANYTHING you are willing to do to improve the situation?" No. Which is why I expect the current situation to continue. Maybe some day I will feel differently. But given that I stopped trying 5 years ago, absent catastrophe I don't see any reason to believe I will change any time soon. I am very comfortable in my misery, and I intend to stay here. (Hold puts thumbs in ears and wiggles fingers while sticking his tongue out)

Anyone still think Mrs. Hold is wrong to call me immature? Nooo
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 06:34 PM
You are creeping up on the truth;
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Well, actually, I agree her issue is a biggie, I am just not willing to do anything to address it. She thinks mine is trivial, so she doesn't feel any need to address it.

Money is as big of an ego issue with you as it is with your wife. It's something you, and more importantly others, can measure. You want to believe there is some magic number which will make you feel adequate around...who? Other lawyers? Your family? Neighbors? Wife?

You don't know what that number is. It's different for every one of them. So why try, you tell yourself. But you are trying, doing pretty well, but blaming someone else for not trying harder. It's believable, because there is a germ of truth to it.

And your wife doesn't think her lack of interest in/withholding SF is trivial. She knows what a weapon it is, because you permit her and enable her. The core problem is that you both see sex as something she gives and you receive, a 0/100 relationship. She has attacked your masculinity, neutered you, and in the process, given up her own sexual persona.

When she realizes what she is doing to herself, and the two of you only think of giving love to each other, this problem will be gone. Both of you need to stop having any other kind of sexual relationship. If you can't do it the right way but once in the next year, that's a start, and better than you are doing now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 07:42 PM
I know money is a big ego issue with me. Not denying it.

My son turns 16 in the fall. Not only can't I afford to get him a car, I can't afford to add him to our insurance so he can drive our cars. I can't afford to send my kids to camp, where many of their peers go. I won't be able to pay the tuition for my kids to go to college (as both mine and Mrs. Hold's parents paid for ours).

I am living the failure of the American Dream. I have a lower standard of living than my parents. And because they have made many poor investments in recent years, I do not receive current help or have an expectation of a substantial inheritance. Downward mobility is NOT fun. I know I have not been laid off (yet) or lost my house or had to declare bankruptcy, but living less well than your parents is not that far psychologically from living less well than you yourself were once able to do.

My parents provided me with a solid foundation for career success. And I squandered it through laziness and poor choices. I deserve whatever punishment I choose to mete out to myself for those errors. And I choose to punish myself in full measure.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 07:55 PM
Hold,there might not be a point to my post. However, I think I read that you make somewhere in the 200K area. I'm not quite sure how you're doing so badly when my wife and I make less than half of that together and we do just fine. No we don't have a fancy house, we drive middle-of-the-road cars, etc. But I suppose that for the most part, material objects don't interest me greatly.

My grandfather was a petroleum geologist that made a ton of money. He did not buy me a car or pay for my college tuition. He did purchase a car for my mom when she graduated college. I'm not sure why your kids can't get a job and earn money to purchase a car like most of the kids in the US. My grandfather even owned his own petroleum company and we lived in a trailor house most of the time on 5 acres. We did have a house in the city for a bit but my mom wanted horses so back out to the acres we went.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 08:02 PM
Wait! You make good money. Sell your house, downsize, pay off bills.

Did you ever read my post about the friend who made way more than you make, lost his CEO job, went to work as a cook, bought the restaurant, moved back up to $100,000, $50,000 + commission = $150,000, $125,000, now $300,000?

I have clients who lost $70,000,000 businesses in this downturn, went from making $2,000,000 a year to selling their Mercedes 500 for a used Accord, and still happy. Starting over at age 70, already making six figures in real estate in this economy.

Go to Texas. Find me a millionaire over 50 who isn't on his second time around.

When I see someone limping around with a cramp, I think of Bo Jackson, playing with a hip replacement, or Lance Armstrong. Get back on your bike, Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 07/30/10 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by Retread
Wait! You make good money. Sell your house, downsize, pay off bills.

BTDT. Don't have any equity in this house. Used the equity in the last house to pay off Mrs. Hold's earlier excess. Already live in the least expensive house in my town. No way to trade down from where I am without leaving the school district. Not doing that to my kids while they are in high school. Not much chance I will be happier. Guaranteed they will be less happy.

Attic fan in our house died. I will be going to Home Depot to buy a replacement tonight. Tomorrow I will be climbing a ladder to the roof to replace the dead fan. S15 will be helping me, so that rules out jumping off. Wish us luck finding the correct circuit breaker to turn off before we start cutting wires!

Quote
When I see someone limping around with a cramp, I think of Bo Jackson, playing with a hip replacement, or Lance Armstrong. Get back on your bike, Hold.

No thanks. I'll just sit her moping.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I know money is a big ego issue with me. Not denying it.

My son turns 16 in the fall. Not only can't I afford to get him a car, I can't afford to add him to our insurance so he can drive our cars. I can't afford to send my kids to camp, where many of their peers go. I won't be able to pay the tuition for my kids to go to college (as both mine and Mrs. Hold's parents paid for ours).

I think its a huge mistake to buy cars for boys. I gave my son a Ford Explorer when he turned 16 and he destroyed it by driving it through sand dunes and ditches. I just ended up paying mechanics for stupid things like "sand in the brakes" and a broken axle. When he snuck out when he was 17 and got picked up for drinking, that was the end of that. I took his car away and nailed his bedroom window shut.

Fast forward to age 21 and he asked me if I would co-sign a car loan for him, which I did. He is now 28 and has paid off 3 car loans [same bank] and has perfect credit. If I had let him keep that Ford Explorer, he would have never been motivated to learn to pay for his own car.

Your son can get a part time job and save up for his car if he really wants one. And he can also pay for the car insurance. That will be good for him, hold.
Posted By: Retread Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 12:09 AM
Why doesn't Mrs. Hold get a job and help pay down this debt faster?
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 12:32 AM
Quote
Well, actually, I agree her issue is a biggie, I am just not willing to do anything to address it

If you were "willing", what would you have to do, to adress your W's issue?

And if you answer with being more "successful", how would you have to actually do that?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 12:36 AM
You know what I can't figure out?

Why people keep reading and posting to Hold. Seriously. And I ask that question of myself too. Because I keep reading and posting.

Hold, I have zero sympathy for you and your money woes. You make roughly 200K a year. I don't know what you are doing with your money that prevents you from simple things like insurance for your teenager.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 04:57 AM
If a family of 4 cannot live on 100K a year then there is something really really wrong with the family finances and the spending.

Did she run up all the credit cards again on fancy parties for the kids? I know that one party for the boy was 30K.....

When you spend 30K on one party, that is 1/3 of your yearly income. And that would be simply:

C-A-R-A-Z-Y !!!!!!
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 07/31/10 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
If a family of 4 cannot live on 100K a year then there is something really really wrong with the family finances and the spending.

Did she run up all the credit cards again on fancy parties for the kids? I know that one party for the boy was 30K.....

When you spend 30K on one party, that is 1/3 of your yearly income. And that would be simply:

C-A-R-A-Z-Y !!!!!!

I think Hold said recently that HE charged a party for the ds and the dd (2 parties) recently on credit card.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/03/10 12:18 PM
SM: correct.

I see how I posted 8 years ago when I arrived here. My wife is wonderful and I want to be in love with her and she with me. Not doing as well at work as I wish but hope to do better in the future and achieve my goals.

Now I post how I have no hope for my marriage or my career and can't wait to die. Not a good progression. I downloaded the list of psychiatrists covered by our insurance. Hopefully I will find the motivation to call them. Hopefully I am open to making changes in the tape playing in my head. I have never been, despite many courses of therapy over 30+ years. Maybe now I am ready.

Clearly, coming here during the day and playing video games at night to medicate the pain, but making no changes in behavior, is not a productive coping strategy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 01:38 PM
Had a discussion with Mrs. Hold about seeing a psychiatrist. She agreed that it would be pointless to ask for help not seeing myself as a failure in my career, because on paper it doesn't look good. She said "You need to work on where you go from here given that you are a failure at work. You need to focus on other areas of life where you have had success." I said "well, it is not like my wife is happy and we have a good marriage. You wanted the life that my career success would have brought, and you are not going to get it." She said "true". I replied "at least my kids like me." She said "you have to learn to want what you have instead of striving to have what you think you want." I said "yes, that would be the road to contentment."
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Had a discussion with Mrs. Hold about seeing a psychiatrist. She agreed that it would be pointless to ask for help not seeing myself as a failure in my career, because on paper it doesn't look good. She said "You need to work on where you go from here given that you are a failure at work. You need to focus on other areas of life where you have had success." I said "well, it is not like my wife is happy and we have a good marriage. You wanted the life that my career success would have brought, and you are not going to get it." She said "true". I replied "at least my kids like me." She said "you have to learn to want what you have instead of striving to have what you think you want." I said "yes, that would be the road to contentment."

Unbelievable.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 01:43 PM
I don't understand the bit about it not looking good on paper. Am I missing something that wouldn't be covered by patient confidentiality?

Are you paraphrasing or quoting her, Hold, because if you're quoting her, wow...

I replied "at least my kids like me." She said "you have to learn to want what you have instead of striving to have what you think you want." I said "yes, that would be the road to contentment."

This bit above...she might not have been responding to the 'at least my kids like me'. Her thought pattern may have already been in another direction. Clarification with her might prevent that statement from settling in and growing roots.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
I don't understand the bit about it not looking good on paper. Am I missing something that wouldn't be covered by patient confidentiality?

Are you paraphrasing or quoting her, Hold, because if you're quoting her, wow...

I got out of it that no one is going to see him as a 'failure' because he looks good 'on paper' even though Mr. and Mrs. Hold see him as a failure. Ugh.

Hold why don't the two of you take a week of your vacation and go work in a homeless shelter?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 01:46 PM
Hold...remember to mirror and clarify what she's saying before you allow what she's saying to take hold and fester. It's for your own good.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 03:51 PM
Thanks ladies, but you have this backward. I see myself as a failure because I am not as successful as my father despite being provided financial and educational advantages as a child / young adult. I have squandered the opportunity to move beyond where my father was - I will never even get to where he got. And it is not like he founded Microsoft so it isn't even worth trying. It was quite reasonable 20 or 30 years ago to think that I would be even more successful than he was, and I have failed to realize my potential. Combined with being far less financially successful than most of my law school classmates, and no one is going to be able to convince me that I have had a successful career.

So my wife is not sending out a message I disbelive. She is not poisoning my self-image. My wife is merely agreeing with my self-assessment. She expected that I would be able to afford the country club and kids' summer camp and fancy cars and paying for kids' college that my father was able to afford. She is bitterly disappointed that I cannot afford that lifestyle. But no more disappointed than I am.

Smiling, what is "clear on paper" is that I have NOT accomplished what I set out to do. That I have not accomplished what could have reasonably been expected 25 years ago. She agrees that no psychiatrist could say I have done a good job of taking advantage of my talents and education. She wants the psychiatrist to help me deal more productively with my failure.

It is like being a #1 draft choice in the NFL, and then not being able to make the starting team. That is not success relative to what was reasonable to expect on draft day. Sure, it is wonderful to have been drafted. But few people view "draft busts" as successful professional athletes. They have to pick themselves up and reinvent themselves as something else (although the millions of dollars of signing bonus helps).

No one is ever going to convince me that I am not a failure at work. The key, as Mrs. Hold said, is where do I go from here?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 04:55 PM
I have squandered the opportunity to move beyond where my father was - I will never even get to where he got. And it is not like he founded Microsoft so it isn't even worth trying. It was quite reasonable 20 or 30 years ago to think that I would be even more successful than he was, and I have failed to realize my potential. Combined with being far less financially successful than most of my law school classmates, and no one is going to be able to convince me that I have had a successful career.

Maybe it is time to change professions, start over. Maybe you are not doing well because you don't like what you're doing. If you're going to be making, perhaps, half of what you felt you would, perhaps it is time to switch professions and possibly even excel there with the same income. What's the worst that can happen?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 04:57 PM
You've been failing, perhaps, because you've been driven by perceived or real expectations of your father and your wife. Two very influential people in any man's life.

Time to do the things that make you feel like a man in your own right, Hold, not what other people expect of you. I don't know how ANY person could be happy living solely to please others.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 05:00 PM
Maybe it is time to go out on your own and start your own practice. Your wife can begin earning her keep by being your office manager/researcher.

This way she will be part of the success/failure, and you will have a more vested interest in whether it works out or not.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Thanks ladies, but you have this backward. I see myself as a failure because I am not as successful as my father despite being provided financial and educational advantages as a child / young adult. I have squandered the opportunity to move beyond where my father was - I will never even get to where he got. And it is not like he founded Microsoft so it isn't even worth trying. It was quite reasonable 20 or 30 years ago to think that I would be even more successful than he was, and I have failed to realize my potential. Combined with being far less financially successful than most of my law school classmates, and no one is going to be able to convince me that I have had a successful career.

Well, I guess you will have to define success for me. I agree you aren't sucessful, but it has little to do with the 'measley' $200K you make a year. It has to do with YOUR expectations and the way YOU allow others to define you and your happiness by your paycheck.

And whose rule is that that a son must make more money than his father did. That is a ridiculous notion. Good grief.


Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Smiling, what is "clear on paper" is that I have NOT accomplished what I set out to do. That I have not accomplished what could have reasonably been expected 25 years ago. She agrees that no psychiatrist could say I have done a good job of taking advantage of my talents and education. She wants the psychiatrist to help me deal more productively with my failure.

Ok, so I had it backwards....and guess what? It is just as pathetic this way as the other way. You didn't address my suggestion that you two go spend a week working in a homeless shelter. I have an even better idea....sell everything you own, quit your job, move to a small town Anywhere USA and open a small practice. Have Mrs. Hold work in your office. Learn to appreciate the small things and stop this whining nonsense about how much of a failure you are.

(Green Acres keeps playing in my head for some reason)



Originally Posted by holdingontoit
No one is ever going to convince me that I am not a failure at work. The key, as Mrs. Hold said, is where do I go from here?

Green Acres is the place to be
Faaaarm Living is the life for ME!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 05:23 PM
Those guys who say the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" are wrong. The definition of insanity is smashing your head into a brick wall again and again, NOT expecting a different result, and continuing to bang your head against the wall. At least the guy who thinks it may eventually produce a different result doesn't want and expect the bad result he keeps getting. Continuing even when you know darn well all you are doing is compounding the hurt is REALLY nuts.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
She said "You need to work on where you go from here given that you are a failure at work. You need to focus on other areas of life where you have had success." I said "well, it is not like my wife is happy and we have a good marriage. You wanted the life that my career success would have brought, and you are not going to get it." She said "true". I replied "at least my kids like me." She said "you have to learn to want what you have instead of striving to have what you think you want." I said "yes, that would be the road to contentment."

I get that you don't want to really know your wife. I believe you believe the same of her--that she doesn't really want to know you. These conversations are crazy to me...because the come in the guise of knowing one another.

And they aren't. They are a subtle war you wage.

If you wanted to really know her, you would have asked her in that exchange, "Is that what you've begun doing, striving to really want what we have? Can you help me with that?"

She may have been sharing that her expectations of you, which were true, are no longer...and her concern now is very real, for you to stop the self-flogging and deprecation. She may hurt for you. You won't know because you still are erratic with honestly sharing and striving to know and being known.

My DH hurt when I would make fun of myself. Until he told me to stop doing that, I didn't know. I thought it modesty. It wasn't. Wasn't sharing, either. He still, six years later, questions me if he hears it. He asks if I'm being honest or wry.

You're partners. Not about disappointing one another...it's about knowing and being known. Please, Hold, take these posters advice and act on it...and if you won't do it for yourself, then do it for the marriage, instead.

Which is the crux of your stagnancy. Not your wife. To know who she is today, what she's working on, her stuff...is a privilege. Take it.

Not to get her to do/say/believe anything. Be really selfish and do it just to have this experience. So you will stop your self-loathing, horrific manipulation (review your conversation) and self-deception. From practice. Whether you feel like it or not.

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 06:26 PM
Hold...I really want the best for you, but does anything anyone posts to you here inspire you to make a change of any kind? Does it help you in a real and possible way? Just wondering.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
These conversations are crazy to me...because the come in the guise of knowing one another.

And they aren't. They are a subtle war you wage

VERY insightful LA.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/04/10 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
I get that you don't want to really know your wife. I believe you believe the same of her--that she doesn't really want to know you. These conversations are crazy to me...because the come in the guise of knowing one another.

Not quite. I don't want her to know me, because she will realize what a loser I am and not want to be with me. Of course, that makes me the crazy one, since it is long since clear to her what a loser I am and she hasn't left. I figure she doesn't feel she has any good options, and it is my job to make sure she never realizes HOW bad it is to be stuck with me, or she might rethink her conclusion.

The above might have been false when we started marriage counselling 13 years ago or when I arrived here 8 years ago. I wasn't in such a bad state and there was hope things would improve in time, and maybe being with me wasn't as bad as I thought it was. Now that I am so irredeemably depressed and resigned to failure, I have made what were warped thoughts into reality.

I understand that many people think the essence of marriage is to share your true self with your spouse and be accepted. I have long since given up any hope that my true self would be accepted, so I have long since stopped sharing my true self with my spouse. Not that I do a very good job of hiding it. But I use whatever flashing lights and shiny objects are available to distract her. And myself.

The key is that I am not willing to undertake the effort to make myself into a more attractive person, so that my true self would be attractive. I have given up and given in. I am going quietly into the dark night. I am not bothering to put up a fight.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
They are a subtle war you wage

If you think it is subtle, then I must not be doing it right.

Originally Posted by LovingAnyway
My DH hurt when I would make fun of myself. Until he told me to stop doing that, I didn't know. I thought it modesty. It wasn't. Wasn't sharing, either. He still, six years later, questions me if he hears it. He asks if I'm being honest or wry.

I do that to her. Complain when she is self-deprecating and tell her to stop. Tell her that I will not have anyone talking about my wife that way, not even my wife. I think she likes hearing that.

I, on the other hand, don't want to hear that from her. When I complain about myself, I am merely stating the truth. I don't want to hear from anyone else that I am wrong.

This will only change when I want change badly enough. Amazingly, despite all my complaining, I don't.
Posted By: Helianthus Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 12:55 AM
I don't think you're actually a failure at all. I think you're just depressed because the things you believe you'd need to do to be "successful" and which you think you are obligated to do are not the same things that would actually make you happy. You are depressed because you never do what you enjoy, and because you are depressed, you naturally have miserably low self-esteem. Well, lots of people are depressed...it's pretty normal. Question is, are you willing to do anything about it?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by Helianthus
I don't think you're actually a failure at all. I think you're just depressed because the things you believe you'd need to do to be "successful" and which you think you are obligated to do are not the same things that would actually make you happy. You are depressed because you never do what you enjoy, and because you are depressed, you naturally have miserably low self-esteem. Well, lots of people are depressed...it's pretty normal. Question is, are you willing to do anything about it?

No. He isn't.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 12:19 PM
Quote
It is like being a #1 draft choice in the NFL, and then not being able to make the starting team.

Wow, Hold, I could really relate to this. I've had some shake-ups lately at work, was expected to raise my work to a way different level, and have done a few years' growth in a few months. I didn't realize how tied up my self-worth was with how I was perceived at work. Thought I was immune to it. Anyhow, it led me to some introspection. You and I have talked about our superstar kids. I was like that, too, smartest in my class, and was in for a big shock when I got into the work world. Instead of being able to excel with just a reasonable amount of work on my part, like at school, I joined a world where I was *not* the best and brightest. I wasn't the #1 draft pick anymore. There were many others with more smarts and drive and time than I had. I wound up resigning my first job after graduation within a year, and taking jobs that paid less, so I could be the best and brightest again, compared to my peers. I've gone through that cycle a few more years, retraining, going to work somewhere challenging, and then feeling awful about falling short of my peers, so I went to something easier. But this job I'm at now, I was given 3 months to work at a way more challenging level than I signed on for, or I was going to be let go. I met the challenge, Hold, but I was also willing to accept and forgive myself if I fell short and was let go.

I also fell short in my marriage. I married a guy that I thought would be easy to please, but the bar was raised, and I beat myself up for falling so short in meeting these new expectations. I wasn't cut out for the IB in my marriage. But I found a place where I found that this is normal, that lots of folks don't thrive with too-high expectations. That there are solutions that have worked for others, so I could give them a shot, too. I learned about POJA, setting myself up for success instead of failure, by only agreeing to things that I was enthusastic about. And it was okay to ask myself if something was realistic for me before I agreed to it. I can forgive myself, Hold, and stop trying to hold myself to those expectations that were too much for me. I am at peace with accepting defeat. I'm not going to win them all.

What do you feel about self-forgiveness, Hold? I was at a step meeting about Step 8 last night, Made a list of people we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Some of us shared about making amends to ourselves, that our expectations of ourselves were unrealistic, and we were too hard on ourselves. If you think about your son, yes, the boy is brilliant, but if he's not the hard-charger at work, do you want him to beat himself up about that? Or be easy on himself, acknowledge that even the best and brightest may not be enthusiastic about being hard-charging all the time.

I'm not asking you to forgive yourself today, Hold. You mentioned a few times about how no one can convince you that you're not a failure. And I think you may be right, that no one can convince you in one day that you're not a failure. But along with our friends here, I'll keep throwing those rocks, because who knows when that day will come again when you will find the "willingness to be willing" to find and act on self-forgiveness.

And I don't believe it's all-or-nothing. I think there are ways today that you are kind to yourself, finding things that you are enthusiastic about doing.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
If you think about your son, yes, the boy is brilliant, but if he's not the hard-charger at work, do you want him to beat himself up about that? Or be easy on himself, acknowledge that even the best and brightest may not be enthusiastic about being hard-charging all the time.

Wow. Great question. I am honestly not sure. I know I will feel like a failure if he is not a hard charger (which he shows ever sign of NOT being). Do I hope he will find peace within himself? Yikes. I can't honestly say yes. I am sure I will send signals that I feel he is a failure if he isn't motivated to be hard charging. Wow. I would do to him exactly what my parents did to me. Yowzers, that is a scary thought. Scary enough to get me to change? I am not sure. Wooooowwwwww. Much to ponder.

Oh, and for those who keep insisting I am a success at work, sorry, but you are simply wrong. Yesterday I got the reminder card that they are printing the law school alumni directory. They publish every 5 years. I called the 800 number to confirm that they had accurate information. At the end of the call, they asked how much we earn. Not to put it in the directory. For the alumni association confidential use (presumably so they know who to hit up for big donations). The call center lady read off a list of income categories. I refused to answer. But just for reference, there were several categories, and I fall into the next to the bottom. 0 - 100. 100 - 300. And up from there for many more categories. So I can assure you that among my fellow alumni, I am considered a financial failure who is not even worth calling to ask for donations, because I clearly can't afford to give anything that the school would consider meaningful.

Right now I need to get my life insurance switched from annual renewable to 20 year level term. Then maybe we can address some of the other issues.
Posted By: Helianthus Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 05:19 PM
Wow, judging the success or failure of your entire life based on how much money you earn compared to your law school classmates. That's so...arbitrary. Do you know that if I judged my life based on how many rollercoasters I've been on compared to my friends, I'd be an utter failure. I HATE rollercoasters, while most of my friends love them. But if I judged myself based on how many miles I've commuted on a bicycle, I would probably win, because I love riding my bike! Maybe your law school classmates LOVE always competing and pushing to get more money. Does that make them better than you, or does that just mean they are very competitive people, maybe overly so? Maybe it's time to start judging yourself based on something else, something you would ENJOY being the best at.

Also, you're just assuming how much money other people make, just because of what survey categories they happen too give?!? I worked for a lawyer last year. He was very "successful" for a while, then he nearly bankrupted himself with two different divorces and practically ran his firm into the ground due to poor management. Now he has to put his own savings into the firm to keep it afloat and hasn't broken even. Not all lawyers are doing well in this economy. A lot are struggling. Just so you know...
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 05:21 PM
You can always find people who make more or less than you. You can always find people who seem to be happier than you. You can always find people who have a better or worse house or car than you.

So why be foolish enough to judge yourself by other people???
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Hi From STIM - 08/05/10 07:02 PM
One more time.

Everyone in the USA has to look at concepts of success and failure differently now. I live in Detroit. Yup.
Highest job loss per capital in the NATION.

I personally know dozens of people who are in forclosure, lost jobs, hell, lost industry. Everyone's house is worth about 1/2 of what it was 5 years ago. (If you are lucky)

And no, HOTI, I will not ask you to be thankful that you have a job..
or go to Mott's Children's Hospital and see the cancer riddled children who's parents have recently lost health insurance....

Think about your own situation. And what you define as a "successful life".

Everyone is thinking about retirement options in a different lite, now. Everyone I know. Guess what? they are not jumping off bridges here.

You have to redefine your #1. Old expectations with #2. New reality. Here (in Det.) it is NOT their fault. Maybe yours is your own fault. Who knows? Who cares? The path forward does not care about past blame, it is just a path to travel.

That does not change the fact that the change has to occur within your thinking. Yes, see the psychiatrist. This issue runs deep and dark through your mind.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 08/07/10 08:21 AM
Hold, after reading you have been talking to Stockbrokers I

fully understand why you have financial problems. I was

reading recently that 70% of "fund managers" do not met or do

better than the market, in any given year. That really is a

shockingly poor result.

Stockbrokers must be the most overpaid and under performing

people that exist.

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 02:38 AM
Hold, that's interesting what you said about your son, that you would be willing to make him feel worse. What would be your payoff in that? Is the punishment the end result? Or is it that you think withholding your acceptance would motivate him?

LA has told me before, what we crave the most, is what we give the least of. You said Mrs. H says what she is missing most is Words of Affirmation. Does that mean that you are craving Words of Affirmation the most? But you say you don't want to hear that you are doing well, that this feels bad for you. So what is it that you do want? I guess I have lot more questions than answers today.

Have you spoken with the Harleys? When I called Steve, he had amazing insight. I told him my struggles, and he explained to me how it made sense that I was having those struggles, and simple steps to try to get out of the ruts I was in. "No man is an island," we're part of a people, Hold. You're not fighting some unique situation that no one else has ever experienced or come through successful from. How would you feel about calling Steve, and letting him give you a plan of action that you are enthusiastic about? And developing an accountability plan that you're enthusiastic about? Over your time here, I think you've seen other folks in ruts that Steve helped them ease out of.

You have some great momentum going already, it's not an all-or-nothing. You have done a great job of getting out of ruts before, like when you took charge of your health, and aided your wife in taking charge of her health. Many folks would tell you that their health is the most precious asset they have. What do you think?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 01:52 PM
Things with Mrs. Hold are going well. Now that I have stopped pestering her for sex we get along well. I pestered her for sex mostly for the ego stroke - not the sex itself. Now sex is not an ego stroke for me. I know it does nothing for her. And in my present physical condition it doesn't do much for me, either. Much easier to take care of things myself and not bother her. This morning she gave signals she was available, but I decided to go into another room and handle things myself. Much less stress and tension.

Now my job is to do better at my job. Forget about my marriage and focus on work. I need to get my head out of my butt and really try to succeed instead of assuming failure and not making a true effort. I know many of you think that I should change careers and do something I enjoy more but I am never going to make that choice voluntarily.

Oh, and bubbles, you'll never believe what Mrs. Hold and I did on Saturday. We went to an open house at a college about an hour away and looked into Mrs. Hold going back to school to get a certificate so she can qualify to get a JOB! She figures she will be bored in 3 years when S15 is out of the house and D13 can drive, and we could use the money, so she wants to prepare herself for something. Hopefully by then the recession will be ending and she can actually get a job.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 03:34 PM
Hold...could you share with us how MB has helped your marriage over the years? Could you share with us how the forum has helped your marriage?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 04:05 PM
I am not sure it has. I did a fairly good job for a long time on avoiding LBs. I learned to listen to my wife without DJs. I say "thank you for sharing" when she tells me unpleasant truths, and really mean it. I tried to meet her ENs, but of course I failed miserably at her #1 need so my efforts along those lines were mostly wasted.

I learned to express my needs and ask for them to be met. I stopped being only a Giver and allowed my Taker to step up to the table. I doubt I would have separated our bank accounts or asked Mrs. Hold to give up her credit cards without MB.

This forum has helped me get through some difficult times. Whether it has become more of a help or a crutch over time is an open question.

No system, MB or anything else, can get me the results I want if I am not willing to make the required changes in my behavior. There was an interesting article in the NY times magazine this week about a life spent in psychotherapy, and whether it made any difference for the author. She could have been describing my life. decades spent waiting for the magic wand or some amazing doctor to "flip a switch" and change my feelings. Doesn't work. Changing one's behavior eventually changes one's feelings. I am not there yet.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 04:26 PM
Thanks Hold. I can see that MB and the forum have helped you with some significant things.

I had another question...you stated, "I tried to meet her ENs, but of course I failed miserably at her #1 need so my efforts along those lines were mostly wasted."

Why do you say that your efforts along those lines were mostly wasted because you didn't fulfill her #1? What of the others?

I think my understanding is that there is no shame in trying and failing, but in not trying at all. We forfeit hope when we give up, agreed? Isn't the feeling of hope better than the feeling of failure?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/09/10 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Why do you say that your efforts along those lines were mostly wasted because you didn't fulfill her #1? What of the others?

My wife and I are similar in many ways. One way we are similar is that our #1 needs have historically been far and away more important than our #2 - #10 needs. So when need #1 is not being met (as it has not been met for either of us pretty much for the entire marriage), it is not like we are missing on 1/10 or 1/5 of the possible deposits. We are missing out on 90%+ of the potential deposits. So moving from a 2 to a 9 on the love bank scale is still so far from 100 that it hardly registers.

Remember, sex and money are like air. Not such a big deal until you don't get enough of them. Mrs. Hold and I have both felt choked by our marriage. When you are being strangled, you don't notice or give much credit if the person strangling you is telling you how lovely your hair looks today.

Originally Posted by Soolee
I think my understanding is that there is no shame in trying and failing, but in not trying at all. We forfeit hope when we give up, agreed? Isn't the feeling of hope better than the feeling of failure?

Not for me. I hate hope. Hope leads to pain. If I fail, I feel ashamed. More or less than when I simply don't try? Hard to say. Both shames are enormous. Sometimes I feel ashamed when I fail at something when I expect to succeed. Sometimes I feel ashamed when I decide that I can't reasonably expect to succeed. Basically, I feel ashamed all the time. Bet you could not have guessed that from my posts here!
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 10:19 AM
"Changing one's behavior eventually changes one's feelings."

This statement is wrong and most definitely wrong for you.

From reading some of your posts it seems that you think, If I can make a million dollars, everything will be ok and my wife will have sex with me.

This is not how it happens. If you do happen to make a million dollars your wife will probably take her cut and shack up with the gym instructor.

Your real problem Hold, is that you are a glass half empty sort of guy. I understand that you like being this way but unfortunately it is death to all women. They absolutely do not want to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable and insecure. They do not want to be attached to failure.

Your failure is the perception that you portray. You tell your wife that you are a failure and she believes you. Why do you find fault when she believes you? When she believes you she acts accordingly.

The funny thing with women is that so often it takes so little to impress. I know a guy that took a woman to the casino twice. He won $20 and $4 dollars and told her he was �always lucky�. She believed it totally. Built a life around it. She believed that life together with him, would always be lucky. It wasn�t but that�s another story.
I guess nature has made women this way because where else are they going to go?

On the other hand they can always spend twice as much as you could ever earn. Look at Fergy, $10,000,000.00 in debt. That would take you a hundred years to pay off. See how lucky you are you didn�t marry her.

The point is until you begin to see the glass half full, no mater what you do, things will remain the same.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 02:16 PM
Good point. I will never be a glass half full guy. If that means continued failure, I guess there will be continued failure. I agree it turns women off. I guess I'll just have to do without.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 03:28 PM
HOLD, even if you percieve yourself (wrongly) as being a failure, ACT as if you are successful.

Even if you FEEL you are a failure, REALIZE and ACT like you are a success.

ACT successful and as if you feel you have success in front of other people and your wife.

Perhaps you MUST feel that you are a failure since SUCCESS is a fearful thing for you.

There is a book, "The Fear of Success".

If you were successful, you would have to do__________. You would have to be _____________. You would have to have this kind of wife_______________. You would have to live__________.

There could be fearful things attached to SUCCESS in your mind so instead, you not only REFUSE to feel any measure of the dreaded, SUCCESS....but you even go so far as to Try and CAUSE yourself to act like a failure and gently sabatage yourself (not enough to lose your job however) at work so you dont make too much money.

You must have a true, deep, and strong fear of SUCCESS!!!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 03:54 PM
Yes, I fear success. If I were a success I would have to divorce Mrs. Hold. I don't want to do that. So I won't allow myself to be a success. Surely you guys have figured that out after all this time.

The good news is that I am changing. Getting older. At this point I could be more successful and not feel obliged to leave Mrs. Hold. So maybe there is hope for me to stop sabotaging myself.

Bubbles, I can't believe you have no comment on Mrs. Hold wanting to go back to school to get a certificate so she can get a job.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
"Changing one's behavior eventually changes one's feelings."

This statement is wrong and most definitely wrong for you.

Pray tell, what is wrong with this statement? I disagree with your generalization. Feelings oftentimes follow intentional actions, I think that is what HOLD was referring to. When people are depressed, they don't wait for the negative feelings associated with depression to subside, they have to take deliberative actions despite their current feelings in order to eliminate the depression (exercise, eating right, medications, counseling, etc.), as one example.

Quote
From reading some of your posts it seems that you think, If I can make a million dollars, everything will be ok and my wife will have sex with me.

This is not how it happens. If you do happen to make a million dollars your wife will probably take her cut and shack up with the gym instructor.

Yes and no. It is difficult to say whether Mrs HOLD would in fact be more attracted and more open to sex with Mr HOLD were he to be a partner pulling down a seven figure salary at his firm. I'd guess that at least part of the reason that Mrs HOLD is not attracted to Mr HOLD is because of the reasons that HOLD has already said, because he isn't leading the successful life that Mrs HOLD anticipated when she married him.

HOLD's situation is akin to, IMHO, one of the first examples that Harley outlined in the HN/HN book. He wrote of a husband/wife couple who met at the gym after the wife had lost a bunch of weight, after having been overweight most of her life. Physical attraction was a primary EN for the husband. After marrying, the wife gradually went back to her old habits and gained quite a bit of weight, and the husband had major issues with her weight gain. She had never communicated to him her struggles with her weight prior to meeting him. In other words, she was not open and honest, didn't practice the PORH.

I see Mr/Mrs HOLD's situation as similar in many respects. HOLD married thinking that all of the sex he received prior to the marriage would continue into the marriage, and Mrs HOLD married with intentions of living the high life married to a successful attorney who would go on to make partner in a prestigious law firm. Mrs HOLD did not practice the PORH with respect to her true intentions with regard to sex, and HOLD probably wasn't entirely open and honest about his glass half empty approach to life and his struggles with his self worth and so forth and so on that have probably contributed to his struggles with job performance. Both were putting on facades in order to get what they wanted.

Quote
Your real problem Hold, is that you are a glass half empty sort of guy. I understand that you like being this way but unfortunately it is death to all women. They absolutely do not want to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable and insecure. They do not want to be attached to failure.

This is a generalization that I disagree with. I know plenty of glass half empty women. Attorneys are born skeptics. They are highly paid to be glass half empty skeptics. Industry analysis of the legal profession has consistently shown this to be the case (just ask HOLD - he'll tell you the same thing I bet). There are plenty of women married to attorneys that are plenty happy despite the glass half empty skeptical personality.

Don't get me wrong, I hear what you are saying, that some women want their knight in shining armor, to be swept off their feet, but not all women want this.

Quote
Your failure is the perception that you portray. You tell your wife that you are a failure and she believes you. Why do you find fault when she believes you? When she believes you she acts accordingly.

The funny thing with women is that so often it takes so little to impress. I know a guy that took a woman to the casino twice. He won $20 and $4 dollars and told her he was �always lucky�. She believed it totally. Built a life around it. She believed that life together with him, would always be lucky. It wasn�t but that�s another story.
I guess nature has made women this way because where else are they going to go?

On the other hand they can always spend twice as much as you could ever earn. Look at Fergy, $10,000,000.00 in debt. That would take you a hundred years to pay off. See how lucky you are you didn�t marry her.

The point is until you begin to see the glass half full, no mater what you do, things will remain the same.

LOL, IME I have to agree with you on the spending twice as much as you could ever earn. smile But then again, HOLD and I share a mutual struggle of financial well being due to our wives overspending. Sometimes it's truly never enough.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 04:25 PM
These wives who overspend are nothing but criminals hurting themselves, thier husband, thier marriage..... and the family.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 04:26 PM
Bubbles, I can't believe you have no comment on Mrs. Hold wanting to go back to school to get a certificate so she can get a job.

What I really have a hard time with is YOU not making her work. You wait until SHE wants to do it. I will believe it when I see it, her working a job, saving money, and quitting her overspending habits.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by HitchHiker
and HOLD probably wasn't entirely open and honest about his glass half empty approach to life and his struggles with his self worth and so forth and so on that have probably contributed to his struggles with job performance.

Not true. I was quite explicit about this. I had been in individual and group counselling for several years immediately preceding and while I was dating Mrs. Hold. I told her all about my struggles. She simply did not believe me. She thought I was being modest. She simply could not imagine a person as academically gifted as me not being a success at work. Now she knows better.

She definitely could not imagine that her refusing to have sex with me would make the situation worse. Sex, after all, is no big deal. It can't be a big deal. Because if it were a big deal, then being raped would be a big deal. And we all know that the rapes did not affect her at all. Since the rapes were much ado about nothing, then sex must be much ado about nothing. And much ado about nothing can't impact one's work performance or career success, can it?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 05:10 PM
I have this feeling that due to her problems, Mrs Hold WOULD NOT have more sex with a man who made substantially more money than you make now.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 05:37 PM
HOLD, your life is full of "Mirages"...

MIRAGE #1. You work hard and save up a lot of money in a retirement account. You trust your wife to manage the money, since she has an accounting background. You picture nice financial goals, a comfortable lifestyle, college money for both your kids, and early retirement. You are working hard, saving, and doing everything right.

But, alas, it is a MIRAGE!

(Your wife; is allowed to; and simply blows your entire retirement account on junk and spends all the credit cards up to thier limits in one year. There goes your comfortable lifestyle and your possibility of retirement and the kids college fund and you are forced to move to a cheaper house and a town you do not like )


MIRAGE #2. You want great marital sex and lots of it. You feel your wife would want more sex if she was healed from being raped when in college. So you pay for and work for 12 years getting marriage counseling and counseling for your wife's rapes in order to try and get a better sex life. You picture your wife desiring frequent, good sex with you. Your picture is of a sexually normal, sexually willing, wife. You are happily moving toward that goal with the investment in all the counseling.

But, alas...IT IS A MIRAGE!

(She changes nothing from the years of counseling and the truth comes out years later that she is just not into you! Counseling would not, and could not help! She not only does not want sex with you, she comes out and says she is not into you and lied all through the expensive counseling you paid for!)


MIRAGE #3. You think maybe your wife would be more attracted to you if you made twice or three times your current salary! Even perhaps the wife herself thinks this or makes it appear to you she is thinking this. You can keep this financial goal in mind. As the reason she does not want willing, happy sex with you now.

But, alas, it too, will prove to be a MIRAGE.

(Your wife does not like sex nor would she want sex even if you made three times your present salary! She is damaged. And refuses to heal or change. Also she is supremely selfish and you cannot have anything you want with such a selfish woman.)

Posted By: Helianthus Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 09:25 PM
I just have a comment on the "glass half empty" thing. There is a difference between people who are highly skeptical, and people who hate themselves and have no motivation. The former is often attractive while the latter almost never is.

Also, Hold, is there any reason for your performance at work other than the fact that your job doesn't interest you that much? I haven't read the whole thread, but could you have a learning disability or ADD or anything? I know a lot of people with ADD who are your age grew up always feeling like they had fallen short of their potential even if they got good grades and sort of hating themselves without knowing why.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 09:49 PM
I definitely have ADD. Took ADD meds for a while. made no difference.

As you say, there are no meds for people who hate themselves and have no motivation to succeed.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 10:17 PM
HOLD, I almost think that you love drama. It looks to me as if you are "playing the role" of the "sad sack" because YOU ARE VERY GOOD AT PLAYING THAT ROLE.

Why not get more of an "acting range" and try a different role?

And what may I ask is YOUR definition of success?
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 10:38 PM
Bubbles, I don't always agree with you, but I have to applaud the following statement:

Quote
Why not get more of an "acting range" and try a different role?


Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 10:58 PM
Almost think? Almost? How can it be otherwies? I LOVE the drama. I live for the andrenaline rush. I am constantly anxious about something. I wouldn't know how to be relaxed if a swallowed an entire bottle of Valium!

Not that I put that energy to productive use. But I certainly never take any action until the anxiety level has risen to a crescendo.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 11:42 PM
book

book

book

book

book

book

book

book

book

book

book

Have fun...
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 08/10/10 11:53 PM
Hold, I saw a photo of a blobfish today and instantly thought of you. At least you're memorable. smile
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 08/11/10 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by HitchHiker
[quote=Jackblack]"Changing one's behavior eventually changes one's feelings."

This statement is wrong and most definitely wrong for you.

Pray tell, what is wrong with this statement? I disagree with your generalization. Feelings oftentimes follow intentional actions, I think that is what HOLD was referring to. When people are depressed, they don't wait for the negative feelings associated with depression to subside, they have to take deliberative actions despite their current feelings in order to eliminate the depression (exercise, eating right, medications, counseling, etc.), as one example.


Reply
Whats wrong with the statement is. Feelings will come and go, but more to the point Whatever Hold does the mental set from where he derives happiness will remain, therefore nothing will change.




Quote
Your real problem Hold, is that you are a glass half empty sort of guy. I understand that you like being this way but unfortunately it is death to all women. They absolutely do not want to hear it. It makes them uncomfortable and insecure. They do not want to be attached to failure.

This is a generalization that I disagree with. I know plenty of glass half empty women. Attorneys are born skeptics. They are highly paid to be glass half empty skeptics. Industry analysis of the legal profession has consistently shown this to be the case (just ask HOLD - he'll tell you the same thing I bet). There are plenty of women married to attorneys that are plenty happy despite the glass half empty skeptical personality.

Don't get me wrong, I hear what you are saying, that some women want their knight in shining armor, to be swept off their feet, but not all women want this.


Reply
You are right that women can get away with this glass half empty attitude. It is very often viewed by men as �damsel in distress� men love to be the saviour. Unfortunately the reverse does not apply for men.
All women want �Man in shining armour,�
Women are hardwired this way no matter what they do or say. Even if it is just an illusion.

Posted By: MsrHaus Re: Hi From STIM - 08/11/10 05:52 AM
I admire your faithfulness. I agree with this: "When people are depressed, they don't wait for the negative feelings associated with depression to subside, they have to take deliberative actions despite their current feelings in order to eliminate the depression (exercise, eating right, medications, counseling, etc.), as one example."
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/11/10 01:39 PM
It is amazing how well Mrs. Hold and I get along now that I have given up on having sex. Wish I had been as fatalistic as this years ago.

You guys have it all wrong. My sad sack attitude is not the problem. It is the only thing making this bearable. My sad sack attitude allows me to give up. Stop trying. By giving up on having a satisfying sex life, I have created compatibility with Mrs. Hold.

Back when I had hope and I was still trying, I couldn't stand being with her. I gave up on date nights because they were torture. Mrs. Hold and I went out last Thursday and had a great time. I think she would have been amendable to sex if I had initiated. But I was not in the mood.

This being a glass half full pessimistic guy is the best.

Oh, Soolee, thank you. That was alot of effort on my behalf. I appreciate it. I ordered 3 books. Next week is vacation so I should have some reading time.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 08/11/10 06:55 PM
Yes, it is amazing how well I can swim now that I have given up breathing air!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/11/10 10:17 PM
You too?
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 08/12/10 12:13 AM
Bubbles;

Despite the context, that is FREAKING hilarious. I've half a mind to print that statement on a T-shirt. Thank you; I really needed that today.

Hold;

RE: ADD - finally, an area where I might offer something of value...if I can remember what it was...

Sorry. laugh grin

Hey, if I don't make fun of myself, someone else will. Why should they get the credit?

Anyway, I've dealt with it since childhood. I have found some relief from ADD by using a combination of fish oil supplements, an iron supplement (men have to be a little careful with iron supplements, but it's working for me), along with vitamin C to help process the iron. I have also found help using a SAM-E supplement.

Some folks have luck using ginko biloba, but I didn't realize any improvement with it. Still, YMMV.

This may or may not be helpful, especially considering that your condition sounds very situational, but I would be remiss if I didn't pass it along. Admittedly, it won't fix you marriage or career issues, but it might help you feel a little better/think more clearly. What do you have to lose but a trip to the vitamin isle at the drug store?
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 08/12/10 10:34 AM
Hold, the progress with your relationship is very impressive.

Coming to a sense of fatalism about things you can not change is

a major leap forward.
Posted By: Helianthus Re: Hi From STIM - 08/12/10 01:12 PM
I have a comment on the ADD thing as well, as I am very close to a few people that have it. Not everyone benefits from every kind of medication for ADD. I don't know if you've done this yet but another option you have is to find a qualified ADD coach. This is not like therapy but rather to have someone to keep you motivated and find strategies to reach your goals while working around the attention issues. For a lot of people this is the single most helpful part of treatment. A good book that mentions how this should work is called Driven to Distraction, which might be a great read for you.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 08/12/10 01:42 PM
That was funny. I remember hearing something on a record once when I was a kid. One of those live concerts. Might have been a Peter, Paul and Mary concert, and one of them was saying that swimming to them meant staying alive in the water. It always made me laugh.

Carry on...

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 01:21 PM
The 3 ADD books arrived today. Vacation starts tomorrow.

Anyone see a downside to my reading the books in front of my kids?
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 02:32 PM
I don't think so. Hey, if my kids watched me read "The Bipolar Guide" and "Surviving an Affair," a little ADD reading can't hurt. smile
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 04:18 PM
The only downside I see is if your kids want you to play and you've got your nose in an ADD book and won't tear yourself away to play, because then they will think you're reading it because you think it's one of them with ADD, because obviously YOU don't have it if you can't be distracted. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 06:17 PM
Both kids have summer reading for school that they somehow haven't found time to get to yet. So we have built reading time into the week's schedule (at the beach, in an Adirondack chair on the deack at the hotel, etc.). I figured the ADD books would be my reading. I don't see any reason to hide that I am trying to improve myself. Never too late and all that. But I wanted to see if anyone thought I was missing something.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 06:26 PM
I think it's a GREAT thing for kids to see their parents working on self-improvement.

Even better if the kids want to read it when you're done.

I read "How to Think Like Leonardo daVinci" on our vacation, and both H and ds13 are 'reading' it now. I had to turn in the book to the library because it was requested by another patron, but was able to bring it home on CD, so they're listening.

Their request.

Great thing!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 06:47 PM
Well, you can bet that when they get a little older I will get showing my kids the HNHN and LB books. I don't want them to ever need SAA.

FYI, does anyone think it is tacky to give FILSIL as a wedding present to colleagues (I am not invited to the wedding but this is my way of ackowledging their event)?
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 08/13/10 10:50 PM
I used to read all of my parents books after they were through with them. Blame that for my interest in historical romance novels (mom) and black-powder muskets (dad). wink
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 08/14/10 12:35 AM

Hold, I would not worry too much about what the children think.

I am sure they will just see it as more of the same, Dad with another problem. It seems to be one step forward, two steps backward.

You could do youself and children a huge favour and buy yourself any tape by Sean Stephenson. This is someone that bats way ahead of his ability. If you and the kids spent the holidays watching that, you could make a gigantic leap forward.

I am picking you are gaining far too much perverse happiness from consentrating on you problems, than to ever come to a place of wanting to move forward.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/17/10 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
I am picking you are gaining far too much perverse happiness from consentrating on you problems, than to ever come to a place of wanting to move forward.

Exactly.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/23/10 01:25 PM
Great vacation. I slept with S15 and Mrs. Hold with D13 all in one room so no sex. But excellent time. Then Mrs. Hold went home and we camped with my buddy and his kids. Also great time. Mrs. Hold made herself available yesterday morning and great cuddling afterward. My marriage may not be perfect but it is not the big problem in my life at this point. My lack of career success and inner satisfaction is the issue. So hopefully I won't feel the need to spend much time here in the future.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 08/24/10 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
My lack of career success and inner satisfaction is the issue.


I submit that this is the underlying issue for...well...darn near all the issues you (and, maybe, all the rest of us) are dealing with. But the marriage and career issues are so intermingled with our inner satisfaction that I don't understand how they can be seperated. At least I haven't been able to do it.

If you come to a place of enlightenment, and I hope you do, please share how you got there. I'd love to know.

Not much helpful to say; just waxing philosophical, I reckon. Glad you enjoyed your vacation. Sometimes an interruption in routine and habit is the best thing that can happen to us.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 08/24/10 01:05 PM
No enlightenment. I have given up on trying to get what I want as regards my marriage. I don't suggest anyone follow my example.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 08/24/10 09:55 PM
Best wishes, hold, even when you're not posting, I'll still be rooting for you silently!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/01/10 12:30 PM
Getting along well with Mrs. Hold now that sex as a source of conflict is off the table. I guess it took age and decline in desire for me to accept reality. She has applied for school and is looking to get a certificate so she can get a job. Should take her a couple of years since we want to spread out the tuition checks. Plus that gives her plenty of time to do some internships and find out what area she prefers, and to make some contacts in the field.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/01/10 02:30 PM
Good that she is out at college and planning on working. Maybe she will meet another man who would take her off your hands (marry her after she divorces you) and you dont have to make the decision to divorce her. Or, maybe she will turn into a non abusive caring wife for you. Either way, something good will come out of it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/01/10 02:42 PM
I have pretty much given up the idea of divorce and finding someone else. I am too old and too tired. I am no longer physically capable of having the kind of sex I want, so why bother blowing things up to seek more or better sex?

No, as long as she continues to be pleasant and available for affection I am hoping she will choose to stay with me. And I am trying to interact with her more so she will want to.

We have found equilibrium. She has given up her dreams of riches. I have given up my dreams of sexual fulfilment. Both of us realize what the other person is sacrificing to stay together. We both feel it is a "fair deal". As Snarch (sp?) would say "typical marital sadism". Both of us are more concerned with the sadism being "fair and balanced" than with eliminating the pain. So for now, we both seem satisfied that the other person is suffering as much as we are, so we are comfortable being loving and supportive in areas outside of our spouse's primary complaint.

So far it seems to be working for us. Which cannot be said of the long time while we were each trying to get our needs met.

I would not suggest other people aim for where we find ourselves. But for now we are less mutually destructive than we were in the past.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 09/01/10 06:20 PM
Hold, I think you're in a decent place. The concept that everyone can have what they want with proper maneuvering is not in the cards for the majority, IMO.

You both value your family life and now that can continue to be a source of comfort and an area in which you work as a team. Mrs. Hold making a move to prepare for a job is a big step for both of you too.

There are so many other situations in which people find themselves that the redeeming qualities are very hard to find. This all sounds like a positive development.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/07/10 01:14 PM
Mrs. Hold reports that she did not feel close to me and did not enjoy our time spent together this past weekend. Shows how poor a judge I am of her. I thought we have been getting along better lately. I thought we had a nice date night on Saturday. Pleasant conversation over dinner. Clearly it did not work for her. Oh well. At least she was willing to be honest about how she feels.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/07/10 01:40 PM
Mrs. Hold reports that she did not feel close to me and did not enjoy our time spent together this past weekend

Well how did you feel around her? Close? Warm?

She is 50% resonsible for the closeness or not of the marriage. Maybe she could figure out a way to feel closer if she wants to be close.

Or perhaps she was just saying that to lay another stick on you before she abuses you once again or burns you down.

Did she say this statement and imply that it is due to YOUR FAILURES that she did not feel close to you? Or did she say it as just a fact?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/07/10 01:42 PM
She wants to abuse you.
She wants to control you.
She wants to withhold sex from you.
She wants you to make more money to give to her that she can blow and waste on junk.

Yet, she wants you to make her feel close to you on vacation?

FAT CHANCE!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/07/10 03:28 PM
She doesn't get to do those things because I am withdrawn. Mostly she gets to listen to me scream into the microphone while playing video games.

She doesn't withhold sex, since I stopped asking.

She knows I am never going to make more money (self-fulfilling prophesy), so she is going to school to qualify for a job so she can earn some of her own.

I think she doesn't feel close because she realizes that I will never be the financial success she expected. She said yesterday that part of why she overspent is that she always expected I would eventually succeed and that my incom would jump up and we could "pay ourselves back" for the debt. Only recently has she realized that I am never going to get there.

I think she no longer feels close because she has accepted that it is never going to happen. She realizes that if she knew at the beginning what she knows now, she would not have married me.

I do not begrudge her time to process these feelings. Everyone here knows how long it took me to accept that our sex life would never be what I hoped, and how long it took me to mourn its loss (to the extent that I am even done with that process). So I am sure she needs time to deal with her feelings of disappointment.

We discussed that once she starts working, she will meet men who can give her what I cannot. And that some of those men will make offers. She said she expects they will, but she isn't interested. I told her to please tell me if she ever feels differently.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/08/10 01:47 PM
We went to S15's parent night at the high school last night. I thought we got along well. Who knows what Mrs. Hold thought. She said I had a creepy look on my face. Another parent said on the way out "Hold looks like he wanted to take that class". I told her I like to appear interested so the teacher is positively disposed to our family. Mrs. Hold said thought I just looked wierd.

But on a positive note, one woman said my hair looked nice. Mrs. Hold agreed that she liked this hair cut, and that another woman had also commented on it favorably to her. I hated the cut on the way out of the barber shop. Shows you what I know as far as what is appealing to women. But you can be sure I will continue to get my hair cut in this style.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Hi From STIM - 09/09/10 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
We went to S15's parent night at the high school last night. I thought we got along well. Who knows what Mrs. Hold thought. She said I had a creepy look on my face. Another parent said on the way out "Hold looks like he wanted to take that class". I told her I like to appear interested so the teacher is positively disposed to our family. Mrs. Hold said thought I just looked wierd.

But on a positive note, one woman said my hair looked nice. Mrs. Hold agreed that she liked this hair cut, and that another woman had also commented on it favorably to her. I hated the cut on the way out of the barber shop. Shows you what I know as far as what is appealing to women. But you can be sure I will continue to get my hair cut in this style.

So you're still weighing your self worth based on gossip / opinions / approval of others?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 03:26 PM
Well, that is better than basing it on my view of myself, which is the worst view of all.

Look, we know I am totally messed up in the head. More evidence of that this morning.

Today Mrs. Hold offered to have sex. She actually reached over, jiggled me, and asked in a playful tone if I felt like anything. Long time readers might think "Hold's dream come true". Hardly. I pushed her hand away. Thanked her for offering. Told her that I was serious when I said I don't like myself, I am not happy with my sexual performance, and I am not enthusiastic about having sex while I am so down on myself.

So I turned down what used to be my dream. What do I dream of now? Nothing.

My wife has lost weight, she offered to have sex with my completely on her own with no cues from me that I was interested, she is going back to school (first class tomorrow), intends to get a full time job when she gets her certificate in 2 years. So all of my marital complaints are being addressed. And I am more depressed, negative and hopeless than years ago when all of my requests were being summarily rejected. So if you are asking "are you still a nut case", then my answer is "no, I am not the same nut case I was, I am even MORE of a nut case than before".
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 05:17 PM
Yes. You just punished your wife for trying to meet your needs.

Please tell me you did or intend to do a seriously good job of apologising for that?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 06:07 PM
Apologize? Why should I apologize? Am I required to enthusiastically agree to her offers just because she offers?

I did not feel like sex today. I wanted to go to services today and then go to work. I would have felt bad about myself if I had given in to my sexual urges and accepted her offer. I would have felt weak and unprincipled. I would have felt spineless.

I understand that if I want her to continue to offer, I should help her feel good about offering. I did thank her today. Are you saying that I need to do more than that?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 07:10 PM
I can see why you did not want sex at this particular time and it does not have much to do with YOU BEING DYSFUNCTIONAL and DEPRESSED!

BAsically, NOTHING has ever been resolved in your marriage FOR THE LAST 14 YEARS!!! NOTHING!!

I like sex but I would never have sex with a spouse where nothing has been resolved.

YOU TWO HAVE NEVER RESOLVED:

1. Her daily abuse of you for 14 years
2. Her theft of your retirement funds and lying to you about them. ($112K)
3. Her laziness and refusal to work
4. Her pushing you to make more money at work so she could blow that money
5. Her driving 200 miles a day to shop for more unusable junk
6. Her demands for $250K home repairs that she knows you could not pay for
7. Her using her field as an ACCOUNTANT to hide her theft and overspending
8. Her forging your checks
9. Her demands for jewelry, trips, housekeepers, beauty treatments
10. Her opening new credit cards and running them up without telling you
11. her ruining your credit
12. Her ruining your chance at early retirement
13. Her abuse of you affecting your two children, one is fat the other one suicidal
14. Her withholding sex for years and the "rapes".
15, Her bragging about her many one night stands and how great they were
16. Her telling you she liked a very different kind of man than you
17. Her control of you
18. Her meanness toward you
19. Her materialistic attitudes
20. Her lying to her parents about you
21. Her absolute disregard for your feelings, needs, etc.

Hey HOLD, I would be more worried if YOU DID WANT to have sex with such a woman (monster). Until these things all get resolved and you recover from your hurtful marriage you will not want sex with that difficult, unremorseful, mean, selfish, and unapologetic woman.

Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 08:20 PM
hold, have you ever considered yourself to be abusive?

Not just to yourself, but to others.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by CWMI
hold, have you ever considered yourself to be abusive?

Not just to yourself, but to others.

To myself, yes. To others, no. But I assume from the question I appear abusive to you. In what way?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 09:31 PM
Your W, who has a past of sexual abuse, opened herself up to you and ALL you thought of was YOURSELF. And getting EVEN with her.

You did think vengeful thoughts, didn't you?

"You wouldn't give to me when I asked, so I refuse you! Ha! How's that feel!"

You seem quite hateful and vengeful to me, hold. You won't help your wife heal. She's trying, and you're putting up hurdles to trip her. How terrible of you.

You wouldn't have sex because you didn't feel like it. How about all the times your W didn't feel like it? Did she get a pass from you? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You felt abused.

So you do it back.

And you somehow feel justified, and lifted. amiright?
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 10:01 PM
Wow, this is rich.

I can only imagine the reaction if a man had reached over, jiggled his wife's private parts (ANY OF THEM) saying, "do you feel like anything?"

I'm quite sure HER not being in the mood would not be called ABUSIVE--and certainly SHE would not be told to apologize.

Hold, you weren't in the mood. You had other things on your mind/other plans that you wanted to accomplish.

You can choose to make that a problem, or not. I think almost every time you hate yourself, it's because you are angry and you don't want to deal with it.

I would be angry too! You're not a faucet, that you should suddenly be turned on because TODAY she wants it.

Sheesh! Sure, after all these years you should be grateful enough for any time she wants you that you have to beat yourself up and be called ABUSIVE because you don't want to have sex.

Dr. H talks about how things sometimes actually get harder for the spouse who has been waiting for the other one to invest in marriage once they DO invest in marriage/begin meetings needs.

Normal. not abusive
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 10:05 PM
And besides, I think reaching over, jiggling you and asking "do you feel like anything" isn't very inviting or attractive.

It's callous, even if it's "playful".

It's dismissive.

Sometimes men need to be wooed too.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 09/10/10 10:19 PM
So all of my marital complaints are being addressed. And I am more depressed, negative and hopeless than years ago when all of my requests were being summarily rejected. So if you are asking "are you still a nut case", then my answer is "no, I am not the same nut case I was, I am even MORE of a nut case than before".

I think it's because as long as she is lacking in meeting your needs, you have someone else to focus and blame your unhappiness on. Once those needs are met, you will have to stop blaming her, and I can see that as somewhat vexing to a person who has become so used to blaming another person for their unhappiness.

As long as you refuse to allow her to meet your needs, you can continue to fool yourself into thinking she's still the same wife she was.

Hold...I think you intend to stay married. I do. Even after your kids are gone. Continuing to blame your wife just won't serve a purpose. Staying will be your choice, and refusing to allow her to meet your needs will also be your choice. Some people take huge issue with ownership. Maintaining withdrawal and grudges is sort of gratifying, and it could even be pleasurable to someone who has come to rely on it for satisfaction.

When there's no longer a reason to be in withdrawal, you're going to be forced to examine your rationale, and I think it is worrying you that you won't be able to justify it forever.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 09/11/10 02:50 AM
Hold, after the comments your wife made about you date the other night, I would refuse sex too.

Just do not see myself being in the the mood after that.

My guess is that if the date was with anyone else other than your wife, they would have had a good time.
It seems she continually brings past resentments into her judgement, just to knock you off your perch.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/11/10 02:21 PM
I think Soolee and Jack are both right.

This is a big dance / game between me and my wife. She is not blameless or willing to be open either. But I recognize the problem that I am not willing to take responsibility for my life. We can both be at fault. It doesn't have to be only one or the other.

At dinner Thursday several women commented on how nicely I speak to my wife. I am very complimentary to her. They said they never hear those kinds of things from their husbands. Nor from any other men. I said I speak that way to set an example for my daughter, so she knows what to demand in her marriage. The 2 other women said "you are setting her up with false expectations, there are few men who speak that way, and she will have trouble finding one". I said those are the ones she should pick from.

Yesterday morning, Mrs. Hold and I discussed what the other women said at dinner. Mrs. Hold said "that is what they want and don't get in their marriages. You see, everyone has something they want but don't get." I agreed. I went on "I bet a woman who wants that but doesn't get it would find me very intoxicacting." Mrs. Hold agreed. Then I looked at the clock, realized it was time to get moving, and got up to go. That is when she jiggled me.

But Soolee is correct. I don't feel unadulterated joy when Mrs. Hold offers to meet my needs. Because that means I have to clean up my side of the street. And I don't feel capable of doing it.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Hi From STIM - 09/11/10 03:34 PM
"We can both be at fault. It doesn't have to be only one or the other."

Hold, this statement makes you one of the most insightful people I've encountered in some time. And I think that your sitch is proof that - regardless of how it make shake our pleasant little notions - not EVERYTHING fits inside a neat little box.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/11/10 07:17 PM
HOLD, how is this board helping you?
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Hi From STIM - 09/11/10 07:29 PM
O/T

Bubbles, can I just say I appreciate how you have a way of cutting through the crap and, most endearingly, sometimes coloring outside the lines? It means you are YOU. And I like that.....I don't want to live on a Borg ship - haha!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Hi From STIM - 09/13/10 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Well, that is better than basing it on my view of myself, which is the worst view of all.

Look, we know I am totally messed up in the head. More evidence of that this morning.

Today Mrs. Hold offered to have sex. She actually reached over, jiggled me, and asked in a playful tone if I felt like anything. Long time readers might think "Hold's dream come true". Hardly. I pushed her hand away. Thanked her for offering. Told her that I was serious when I said I don't like myself, I am not happy with my sexual performance, and I am not enthusiastic about having sex while I am so down on myself.

So I turned down what used to be my dream. What do I dream of now? Nothing.

My wife has lost weight, she offered to have sex with my completely on her own with no cues from me that I was interested, she is going back to school (first class tomorrow), intends to get a full time job when she gets her certificate in 2 years. So all of my marital complaints are being addressed. And I am more depressed, negative and hopeless than years ago when all of my requests were being summarily rejected. So if you are asking "are you still a nut case", then my answer is "no, I am not the same nut case I was, I am even MORE of a nut case than before".


Nothing wrong with what you chose Hold. I call it lost opportunity.

A Husband has the right to ask his Wife for sex.
A Wife has the right to decide yes or no to sex when asked by her Husband.

At the same time,

A Wife has the right to ask her Husband for sex.
A Husband has the right to decide yes or no to sex when asked by his Wife.

You'e detached or withdrawn. This goal of her to finish school and get a job puts some factors in the works to be closer to some decisions from both of you.

I know how it is to decide something for the present that weight heavily towards the needs of the kids.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Hi From STIM - 09/14/10 04:28 PM
Ok Hold so I would say most of your marriage issues are resolving themselves and now for sure you have know one to blame for your own issues but yourself. You don't need Marriage Builders you need psycho therapy!!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/14/10 04:33 PM
I would say that a few of your marriage issues are getting solved. The wife is thinner and she is willing to have you pay for her schooling so perhaps she can work someday.

Many of your marital issues have not really been resolved. There has been no recovery from her abusive ways for one example.

There has been no restitution or remorse for her blowing your life savings and having to move to a cheaper town and having to get a new job.

Until these other issues are resolved, you will not feel good about yourself. Because you are living with a toxic wife. Who does not love you. That alone would depress anyone.

What I want to know is which comes first?

Did you marry and stay with this toxic wife BECAUSE your self esteem was low?

OR

Did you marry and stay with this toxic abusive wife AND THEN your self esteem became so low you cannot leave her?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/14/10 10:33 PM
Bubbles:

The former.

Jilly:

Nice to "see" you. BTDT on therapy. I need a new brain.
Posted By: Caroleena Re: Hi From STIM - 09/16/10 01:31 AM
Hold: I have been reading Marriagebuilders since 2001. I hardly ever post, because I am not much of a talker.

But I have followed your story since the beginning 8 yrs ago. I liked you, and hoped against hope that things would change for you. But all I can say now is

STOP IT!!!

No matter what happens for the two of you as individuals (and I do feel that one or both of you can change/improve), your relationship is not going to get any better. It has been too long and patterns too ingrained. So maybe just suck it up and deal with it until you are ready to leave?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/16/10 03:25 PM
Actually, our relationship HAS gotten better. She made herself available again today. I turned her down because I wasn't in the mood, but asked her to snuggle and she complied until my morning breath forced her to seek fresh air. We had a pleasant dinner with S15 last night.

I may never leave. We are getting along better and better. My sex drive has substantially declined. She is meeting my need for AS. She is going back to school and "threatens" to get a job when she graduates.

No, the problem now is not my marriage. It is me. it is work. And my community service. My depression. And fatalistic attitude.

You are correct that I don't need to work on my marriage at this point. Not because it has irretrievably failed. But rather because it has gotten good enough that other concerns are more pressing.

And as for why I come here, after telling myself for 15 years (not without justification) that my marriage stinks, I need to keep reminding myself that within the past few months it has gotten better. So that my internal emotions match up with the new and improved reality. Hopefully that will help motivate me to improve other areas of my life.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/20/10 01:30 PM
Had a nice weekend. Mrs. Hold cooked yummy food for us before the fast and more yummy food to help us break the fast.

With sex off the table, we get along much better.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/22/10 01:38 PM
Just wanted to give everyone a head's up. Make peace with your Maker. The end of times has come.

This morning, on her way out to the gym (I was still in bed), Mrs. Hold leaned over, gave me a kiss on the forehead, and said "FYI, the gym is closed tomorrow, so I don't have any exercise class in the morning. Just so you know."

We now have definitive proof that ANYTHING is possible if you wait long enough.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/22/10 09:03 PM
Mrs. Hold just called. She got hired part time by Weight Watchers. I think there were a dozen people or more applying for the job. They said she is their dream come true. She lost over 50 pounds, reached her goal weight, and has kept it off for a while. They offered her as many receptionist shifts as she wants to take. In this economy, I consider it quite an accomplishment to get hired at pretty much any job.

Kudos to her.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 09/22/10 09:08 PM
Fantastic news, hold.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 09/22/10 10:30 PM
Hold, it is an interesting view of relationship behaviour, that when you stopped harrassing your wife for sex she is now initiating it with you.

Be wrong to refuse tomorrow

Good luck
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/22/10 11:33 PM
I do not intend to refuse tomorrow, if she does indeed initiate.

Yes, the relationship dynamic is interesting. And complex. We had "vacations" from sex and mutual celibacy agreements in the past. Some of them lasted many months. None of them motivated her to initiate at any point. So the change in her behavior is not caused solely by the reduced pressure for sex.

It seems that a combination of age, time together, my withdrawing in general, our children getting older and needing her less, the realization that I might choose to leave when the kids do, her coming to accept that I am never going to meet her financial goals, perhaps some unconscious recognition that perhaps her behavior played some role in my lack of motivation, and who knows what else have combined to produce a very favorable result which I do not think would have been available in prior years.

I am trying very hard to let go of the resentment and appreciate what she now offers. That is why I focus on only posting positive interactions. Please call me on it if I slip back into old bad habits.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 09/23/10 01:01 AM
HOLD, I suspect, as you said, it is a combination of timing, aging, personal growth (yes, on both your parts!), and perhaps, the old adage that it is when we finally give up looking for what we truly desire, that we find it. I suspect, that even during the times when there were celibacy agreements, your desire was very much still in place. You as well as I know that we humans, and perhaps especially women, have uncanny sensory abilities, or gut instincts, when it comes to sensing what people really want from us right? I suspect Mrs HOLD sensed your true desire. Is it odd that you would have to die to your desire in order for her to find it for you? Yes, but it's far from the first time I've seen this happen, in both my own life and in the lives of others I've known. The bible puts it similarly, "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." It is when we get the point where we are truly willing to give up, that we oftentimes find what is we were looking for. I pray this string of blessing continues for you HOLD, I really do! smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/23/10 02:07 PM
HitchHiker:

I thnk you are correct.

I also think my wife gave up some magical thinking. I asked her why she used to overspend. She said "I always figured you would eventually start making lots more money, and the debt I ran up wouldn't matter because you would be able to pay it off. So I figured it was OK to overspend." Now she sees that I probably won't ever make more money, so she feels a need to be more frugal, get a job, etc.

Moreover, she had to decide whether she was going to stay with me. Whether she liked me enough apart from the money to stay. She could have taken her hot new (or returned to) body on the road and found someone else. She chose to stay. So to the extent that she was withholding herself physically and emotionally until I made more money, if she was going to stay, that had to end.

I hope that I too can end some of my magical thinking and deal with the world more realistically as well.

Edited to add: and for the curious, yes she came back to bed after dropping the kids at the bus, and yes, we celebrated the festival of Sukkot by making a marital mitzvah.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 09/23/10 02:12 PM
Hold, this seems a hopeful turn. Perhaps you two can finally stop looking at each other through a fog of hopes, dreams and expectations and actually SEE each other for what you are. When you can do that, perhaps you can attempt to create REAL intimacy between you without the pressures of what you each WANT the other to be, by accepting what you are.

Maybe starting from a foundation of truth and reality(as opposed to hopes), THEN you can begin to build and shape yourselves as MB would have you change for one another.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/23/10 08:48 PM
Perhaps you two can finally stop looking at each other through a fog of hopes, dreams and expectations and actually SEE each other for what you are. When you can do that, perhaps you can attempt to create REAL intimacy between you without the pressures of what you each WANT the other to be, by accepting what you are.

Maybe starting from a foundation of truth and reality(as opposed to hopes), THEN you can begin to build and shape yourselves as MB would have you change for one another.

I really like how you put this Vibrissa. It is so true in so many marriages and relationships.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Hi From STIM - 09/24/10 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Perhaps you two can finally stop looking at each other through a fog of hopes, dreams and expectations and actually SEE each other for what you are. When you can do that, perhaps you can attempt to create REAL intimacy between you without the pressures of what you each WANT the other to be, by accepting what you are.

Maybe starting from a foundation of truth and reality(as opposed to hopes), THEN you can begin to build and shape yourselves as MB would have you change for one another.

I really like how you put this Vibrissa. It is so true in so many marriages and relationships.

Good luck with that idea. Sure it can happen at the rate of probability that person A baggages + person B baggages can be handled by each person.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 09/24/10 03:45 PM
But you can't BEGIN to change if you don't accept that THIS is how much baggage there is in your marriage.

Hold's problem is that both went in to the marriage with high expectations and little understanding of WHO it was they married. It has been said that expectations are premeditated resentments. And they are living the truth of that statement.

Neither of them WANT to change because BOTH of them want the other to live up to their HIGH expectations. Expectations that were set so high, the other couldn't reach them. Now were they too high for a typical marriage, who knows. But for these two people, in this marriage they WERE too high.

Why were they too high? Because NEITHER of them actually KNEW the other when they married. They didn't marry one another, they married their HOPES of one another.

This is why radical honesty is so important BEFORE marriage.

If I had gone into my marriage expecting my DH to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 I would be miserable right now, because that is NOT who he is. That is something I discovered about him through dating. If that was important to me, I would have left.

Instead I married someone who has less earning potential than a CEO but to whom family is paramount. That is who he IS, and that is what I like, thus my expectations of him meet what he can reasonably achieve.

Hold's and his wife harbored unattainable expectations for one another, creating this hole of resentment in which they continually stew. They both have high needs for something the other just cannot provide in an acceptable fashion. Because there was no honesty and no acceptance for who they are and thus, what they can achieve.

Maybe they can't accept the baggage they have accumulated between them. That is also a result of their initial dishonesty. (And I'm not saying they lied to each other, but it seems they didn't reveal their true selves to one another before marriage)

When one spouse cannot meet another's needs, a negotiation must ensue. A negotiation requires a Giver along with a Taker. Hold and his wife have never been able to POJA a satisfactory negotiation of their needs in this marriage because their EXPECTATIONS of one another created a fog which kept them from TRULY seeing one another and goals they could conceivably reach. Thus they weren't able to give and find mutual enthusiasm. Each held too tightly to the Dream they had of each other and EXPECTED their needs be met. The couldn't give and thus no negotiation was possible and no POJA was achieved.

Maybe, now that the fog of their expectations is trying to lift, they can see ACHIEVABLE goals, which may not be as high as their expected goals when they entered into this marriage, but may be high enough to provide mutual enjoyment, happiness, and even love.

For so long they've been married to the mirage of one another. Now, maybe, they can see their real spouse and find actual, achievable paths to their happiness.

I see it as a hopeful start.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/24/10 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Vibrissa
And I'm not saying they lied to each other, but it seems they didn't reveal their true selves to one another before marriage

Untrue, at least as to me. I was very explicit as to my earning potential. I told her I had not been as successful as I hoped up to that time, that I was not on track to make partner, and that I would probably never make partner at a top tier firm and never earn the kind of money that many of my classmates would earn. I admitted that I lacked the drive and ambition required to get to the top. I told her I had issues with self esteem that made it unlikely I would turn things around positively, and that the #1 thing she could do to help me with my self esteem was to have lots of sex with me. I revealed EVERYTHING.

In fact, I can distinctly remember going to an out of town wedding with her shortly before we got engaged. Everyone thought we were going to get engaged at the wedding (swept up in the "marriage fever"). I had recently poured out the above in excurciating detail to her, and figured the wedding was our last hurrah together. I figured she was going to dump me when we got back, but was saving me the embarrassment of going to the wedding alone. I remember being surprised when she wanted to stay with me when we got back.

She told me "smart is sexy" and said that meeting my need for SF would not be a problem for her. I think she believed that. But I think she was mistaken as to my statements - she thought I was being modest and did not take my warnings seriously. And I think she was not being honest with herself. In that I think her sexual history has more impact on her behavior than she is ready to admit.

The only part where I think she was intentionally dishonest was in not admitting that she had been raped. She feared I would see her as damaged goods if she told me. And she had convinced herself they didn't affect her, so she thought the omission was no big deal.

In any event, we both have come to learn additional truths about each other. More from experience than from verbal discussion. She has chosen to be more available despite my not meeting her EN for FS. So I have chosen to let go of some of my resentment.

As you say, recent events are a hopeful start.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/24/10 08:46 PM
I am sorry you both married for anything like "earning power". Geeze it sounds so cold. Do human beings look at potental spouses for the fatness of thier wallet's?

It just seems so wrong to me. That would be a marriage based on material things instead of deeper values of love and care and creating a family. And this is not what I think marriage should ba aboue.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 09/25/10 09:00 PM
Bubbles, attractive spouse and finacial security are fundament hardwired drivers in all of nature and especially in our society.

The emotional need of finacial security is not mutually exclusive from love, care and family. It is directly connected.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 12:31 AM
Yes, financial security is important. But why do women need men to be WEALTHY so they can blow all that money on junk asap?

Financial security is good for families but women can work just as well as men to help.

If a person has all they need in life, a house, clothing, food, etc why can't they be happy with that?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
Yes, financial security is important. But why do women need men to be WEALTHY so they can blow all that money on junk asap?

Financial security is good for families but women can work just as well as men to help.

If a person has all they need in life, a house, clothing, food, etc why can't they be happy with that?

THIS is what I'd like to know too. I find it ridiculous that women 'expect' to be able to drive expensive cars and go on expensive vacations and have the latest and greatest of all clothes, houses and gadgets.

What ever happened to the phrase 'in sickness and in health and for richer and for poorer'? Good grief.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 01:37 PM
I never heard women had a monopoly on luxury purchases.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 02:46 PM
Here it would be my husband who has the desire to buy nice things and the expectation that one day he will have a certain standard of living. But then he's the breadwinner, I'm a SAHM (with his complete support) and he's expecting to provide those things out of his own salary.

I am very grateful to him for supporting us and yes it definitely makes deposits in my love bank that he is willing to support us financially and allow me to sah and homeschool the girls but my desired standard of living is much lower than his.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 03:41 PM
Why do MEN need women to be wealthy? Why does anyone NEED luxury purchases.

There is stuff they really NEED
And stuff they THINK THEY NEED that THEY ONLY WANT.

We have way too much stuff to buy in the world. Too much stuff to acquire.

These greedy folks need to quit saying they NEED a spouse who will give them the FINANCIAL carte blanch amount $$$$$$ to spend on useless junk, luxury items, and things to impress the neighbors.

The idea of SHOPPING for a spouse to give us these things is beyond ludicris. It is cruel and insane.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 04:29 PM
Bubbles, that is YOUR opinion. It has little to do with greed and more to do with an emotional response. FS is a VALID need, and we cannot disparage it. If we feel it is unimportant and we don't want to meet that need then we must ensure that we marry a person who doesn't value it. But we cannot minimize the emotional response because we find it irrational or wrong.

ALL emotional needs are irrational. Some are just more accepted than others.

I can't help it. I have a high need for DS. Sometimes I feel guilty about the stuff my husband does to fill that need, but I cannot deny that I feel an overwhelming sense of love when he cleans the dishes. I smile and feel a sense of love and peace when my need is met. I feel my Love Bank surge past the Romantic Love threshold.

It is an emotional reaction.

If someone else feels the same feeling when they are Financially Supported, who are we to judge them? That is what they need to feel loved. It isn't greed but fulfills something deeper.

Like many needs it can become abusive. But to just say THIS is the lifestyle I would like and would make me feel loved is a simple statement of fact.

Would Hold's life be better if his wife's need for FS didn't require a lifestyle he cannot provide? Of course. I would say her need tipped over into abusive behavior when she ran up ridiculous amounts of debt. But simply having a need and wanting it met is not cruel or insane.

Your threshold for what you expect for FS is YOUR threshold. Lets not disparage those with a different threshold. What you may consider a WANT someone else may legitimately consider a NEED. It is not for YOU to determine what is too much, but for the spouses within the marriage to determine what is too much.

Hold has decided that his wife's ideal way to get FS is something he cannot or will not achieve, thus he's made peace with the fact that he will not have a romantic passionate marriage as he cannot fill her love bank.

Right or wrong, her needs exist and are valid. It seems that the need might be shifting. That would be good because then Hold might have a chance of filling it if he so desires.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 04:42 PM
If someone else feels the same feeling when they are Financially Supported, who are we to judge them? That is what they need to feel loved. It isn't greed but fulfills something deeper.

Financially supported is one thing, but having thousands and hundreds of thousands of disposable income to blow on junk is quite another. It becomes a moral choice.

"Someone" might feel the need to beat a child. Does that mean it is a valid need for them? And does that mean they have to search out a situation where they can carry out that need?

Other "needs" could be to fill a house with junk, like on the "Hoarders". Sure, they have a NEED to do this and they FEEL like they want to fill up thier homes with junk. Does this mean that that need is valid for them and should be honored?

Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 09/26/10 05:26 PM
Quote
Other "needs" could be to fill a house with junk, like on the "Hoarders". Sure, they have a NEED to do this and they FEEL like they want to fill up thier homes with junk. Does this mean that that need is valid for them and should be honored?

If you want to be married to them and have a passionate romantic marriage, then yes.

A radio show from a few months ago, DR. Harley was talking about avoiding jealousy in our spouses. He said that we should make our spouses feel safe and if they feel jealous STOP doing whatever triggers that emotion. He then used the extreme example of a paranoid person, who's jealousy is raised through what you and I would consider innocent interactions. What should the spouse of such a person do?

Avoid making their spouse jealous, even though the paranoia is restricting and seems unfounded. If you want a happy marriage, you avoid hurting your spouse. FULL STOP.

Now you may decide that you cannot meet the need to the level the paranoid person wants.

That is fine.

You are free to set your boundaries. But you will not have a happy, passionate marriage with such a person if you cannot fulfill that need.

This isn't a judgement on any party. This is pure fact.

Someone has a need. You can't meet it and you can't successfully negotiate it with POJA, you're not going to have a happy marriage.

Does that make one spouse bad or wrong.

No.

It just is.

Now you may decide to not stay in such a situation. That is completely your choice.

Hold has decided to stay, knowing he cannot have a happy marriage under these conditions.

And as for beating a child that isn't a EN in the MB sense, because it is not a need that will build love and make love unit deposits.

When you encounter a potential mate with needs that you cannot meet, or your spouse develops them during your marriage (see Linus' thread in SAA) then you must decide "Will I continue to live in this situation?" Then you control only what you can: YOURSELF and either stay or go.

The fact of the matter is you cannot change another person, not only is it a DJ it is a futile process. One that only brings pain and misery as you are condemned to fail.

All you can do is determine: Can I meet my spouse's need, if not can we negotiate a middle ground, if not, can I live in a loveless marriage?

Judging your spouse (and that is what you are doing) doesn't solve or fix ANYTHING, it may make you feel better temporarily, but that is fleeting and the judgement actually compounds the problem.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/27/10 01:40 PM
Bubbles, you know I love you. Thanks for the support. Still, listen to Vibrissa. She is correct.

As you well know Bubbles, having suffered with me all these years, no one raged against the unfairness of a spouse's "excessive" need more than I have. And what did that get me? Misery.

Now I have finally accepted that my wife's need is valid, even if I cannot satisfy it. Just as my need for sex was valid, even though Mrs. Hold could not satisfy it. Neither of us is getting what we need. Yet both of us are more content than we were back when we were vainly striving to get the need fulfilled. Wierd, huh?
Posted By: clark_kent Re: Hi From STIM - 09/27/10 02:09 PM
I really don't want to get OT. If I am then say so.

Two questions related to ENs.

One, is it because other ENs are being met that the primary needs have abated to the level of contentment for you? If so, what are the other ENs being met?

Or is it that the ENs that are contented were not really as a high priority as believed and were used as straw-men to control each other, knowing the other person would have a really tough time meeting those needs.

Where does the desire for fulfillment of ENs turn into LBs?
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 09/27/10 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by clark_kent
Where does the desire for fulfillment of ENs turn into LBs?


When the only acceptable method for fulfilling that need requires or results in the pain of your spouse.

MB is an intertwined program that works when all elements in place, this is why it is tricky and difficult at the beginning. It's like watching a quickly turning merry go round and trying to time the best way to get on, at some point you just gotta jump on and hope you don't fall off.

Ideally two spouses care about one another and the thought of hurting each other seems unfathomable, and thus the actions that one spouse requires of the other will not put them in pain or hurt them in any way. There is a little bit of the Giver involved where each spouse does their best and the other cuts a bit of slack until positive, need filling habits are established.

Good example is my husband's need for Affection. He likes cuddles and hugs. Me, I have an aversion to touch that was VERY strong when we first married. I would try and try to snuggle and I'd get anxious and ansy and start poking and tickling him. It drove him crazy and me trying to snuggle drove me crazy.

Now he could have used LBs to get me to lay still and meet his needs: SDs (Just lay quietly for crying out loud!), AOs (YOU NEVER GIVE ME ANY AFFECTION!) and DJs (What kind of woman are you? All women like to cuddle!). At that point, his need would have become an LB.

But since we were in love and had our Givers at the table, I would snuggle him as often as I could for as long as I could stand it and he'd lay with me and enjoy what little I could give at the time, and over time I've become more accustomed to it and am now able to provide the amount of affection he needs, because I've built the habit.

Now if you have two spouses in conflict or withdrawal it will be more difficult to create the atmosphere necessary for a successful negotiation. This is why the first step is to create romantic love by meeting the needs you CAN meet, in order to create the love necessary to negotiate the needs that are more difficult to meet and require negotiation.

Ideally you can meet other needs and table the one that is an issue and still achieve the Romantic Love threshold at which point a safe negotiation guided by the Policy of Joint Agreement is more likely to be successful - because you are working with two people in love and so they DESIRE to meet one another's needs and are ADVERSE to hurting the one they love.

Like the merry-go round, it's easiest for both spouses to get on at the start of the ride, before things start moving. Similarly it is easiest to implement MB early in a marriage when both spouses are riding the high of their first love. It is possible to do it later, but like jumping on the merry-go round spinning ever faster - it is scarier and you stand a good chance of getting knocked on your behind a few times before you actually make it on, and then once you're there you gotta stick out your hand and try to get your spouse on as well.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 09/27/10 04:43 PM
Logical:

Do not base your marriage on mine, or try to understand what has happened to us. It likely won't provide useful information for improving your marriage, or anyone else's. A quick one line summery: we have both given up on gettng our needs met, and have accepted that being "nice" to each other is the most we can hope for. Do not aim for what we have settled for.

Instead, work the MB system in its entirety. Spend liots of UA time together. Avoid LBs. Meet your spouse's ENs. And hopefully you will get to the place where you are both deeply and romantically in love.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 09/28/10 12:55 PM
"being "nice" to each other is the most we can hope for."

Thats a little understated Hold. Your wife has made major progress in many areas of her life. That includes a big change in what she wants from your relationship.
Can I ask what Mrs Hold thinks of MBs? Im guessing she does not post here.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 01:48 PM
Big fight the last few days over insurance. Mrs. Hold gets everything when I die (401k, biggest insurance policy, etc). I am changing smaller life policy, and decided to put it in trust rather than having her be the beneficiary outright. I told myself years ago I would not give her control to where she could spend everything and ruin us again.

I told Mrs. Hold of my plan. She exploded. She thinks she is entitled to everything. I explained how her past overspending worries me, and that I wanted to know that the kids' college was paid for no matter what she did with the rest of the money. I thought she had grudgingly accepted my position (I know, as a good MBer I should push to where she is enthusiastic, but there is not going to be mutual enthusiasm here and we only have until Friday to get the insurance before I become older and the policy becomes more expensive).

Then she apparently discussed this with her father, who got her all worked up again. I remained calm during our next discussion, but I am royally pissed. When I discovered her huge overspending, I asked for his help in talking to her about her spending and lying about it. He told me to leave him out of it and handle it myself. So now I am handling it, and he wants to criticize my choices? He can take his views and shove them.

Also, I doubt Mrs. Hold has explained all the facts to him. Her continued overspending after I discovered the first big problem. Her opening new accounts after she agreed to give up her cards. Her forging my name on checks to pay off the cards she wasn't supposed to have. Her continued overspending whenever we "test the waters" in later years. And her complete lack of remorse over any of this (last night she tried to justify her spending saying "it wasn't a waste, I spent it on our house and the kids"). I expect that if she told him the whole story, he wouldn't be complaining that I am holding back 1 account. He would be suggesting I lock up everything else to protect her from herself. I think his intentions are good (protect my daughter), but his suggested soluition is way off target.

Ayway, just venting because I am getting huge flak and I wuld like to POJA a solution but I can't see that Mrs. Hold is interested in any restrictions on her access to money. We discussed having a bank be the trustee, but she was opposed to that as well. She wants it all for herself, and that is something I am simply unwilling to do, no matter how much she dislikes it.

She said it is bad that I don't trust her. I agreed. But I am not being irrational. She has shown herself to be untrustworthy. And she shows no remorse. So she is getting what she signed up for. As am I.

A big part of me wishes I had not told her about the new policy. If I had never heard of MB, I might have just gone ahead and done it.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 06:09 PM
Given her history with money I don't think you even needed to share your choice with her. Had Mrs. H not continued to over spend and lie to you after the initial discovery then perhaps she would have earned your trust when it comes to money, but that's not the case.

You want to protect your children, so should she. If she can't see this choice as a way to do that she is truly being selfish and greedy.

Make the change and don't bother to discuss it further. If she can take out a life insurance policy on you and make herself beneficiary that's her choice. Ask the father if he will take her back. ;-)
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 06:48 PM
She is terrible. Have you told her parents EVERYTHING about how she ruined you, how you had to move, get a new job, etc? She is a real piece of work.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 08:22 PM
Tell your wife as soon as she pays back all that money she stole (112K) that you will give her EVERYTHING if you die.

1. She does not care about the kids college
2. She cares very little for you, but she would like it if you died and left her the money.
3. She loves money, what it can buy, and how she thinks it can impress other people.

There is NO HARM leaving it in a trust. There is only GOOD in this given what your wife will do with it. If you died, she would have this money gone in less than 6 months.

She has learned nothing.
oleofneouysi
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 09:02 PM
The thing that gets me about this is her complete lack of remorse. When we discussed the overspending, she objected to me describing it as wasteful. She said it was not a waste because she spent it on the house and the kids. I told her it was more than we had budgeted, and that she lied to me about it when I asked, so must have known it was not appropriate.

She said she simply could not bear to live the way we lived then, or live now, and so she felt compelled to spend whatever it took to create an appropriate home for herself and our children. She said that poor people live better than we do. I told her that I am also disappointed in our lifestyle, it is not what I expected it to be when I graduated law schiool, but that does not justify going deeper into debt trying to create a lifestyle we cannot afford.

I suggested that if she is not satisfied with our house in the suburbs on almost 2 acres, and her car, and the spending money I give her every week, then she should leave and find someone else who can support her in the style to which she wants to become accustomed. Not that I want her to, but if she truly finds our house and lifestyle unbearable, then I will understand if she needs to make a change. If she chooses to stay, however, I cannot tolerate spending in excess of our income. Moreover, to the extent that she feels "it is for the house or the kids" justifies unlimited spending, that reinforces my fear that she might justify enormous spending after my death - which makes me even more determined to carve out one piece beyond her reach for the kids' education.

I am simply astonished that she would try to justify her overspending. I can understand explaining why it happened. How she felt at the time. But not asserting that it was OK and I should stop viewing it as excessive or inappropriate. It is one thing to expect that after all this time I wuold forgive her. But it is another to assert that I don't need to forgive her because she didn't do anything wrong!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 10:07 PM
What is really sad is that your wife, with her accounting backround, does not realize this truth:

THAT SHE IS THE CAUSE OF YOU HAVING TO LIVE AS IF YOU WERE POOR! SHE PUT YOU IN THE POORHOUSE! SHE COULD HAVE HELPED YOU TWO BECOME WEALTHY BUT INSTEAD HER HUNGER TO SPEND MONEY ON JUNK THAT DOES NOT LAST LED HER TO STEAL YOUR FUNDS, YOUR SAVINGS, AND RUN UP CREDIT CARDS PUTTING YOU IN THE SITUATION YOU ARE IN.

HOW CAN SHE BE SO DENSE? DO YOU NEED TO WRITE IT OUT FOR HER ON A LARGE PIECE OF PAPER:

1. Here is where we would be financially had you NOT SPENT THAT MONEY. Here is what we would have to spend now. 112K invested well....would AT LEAST double in 7 years. By NOT paying credit card interest, this could save you thousands also. And by her saving money, you could have had 3/4 of a million dollars easily by now. If she would have worked full time for the last 10 years and not had a housekeeper, this could have generated another 400K. Geeze!!!!! How come I see it and I am not even part of your family!!!!!!!But she is BLIND to this!!!

2. Here is where we are NOW BECAUSE YOU BLEW, and continue to blow... OUR MONEY!!!!

112K--LOST
80K --INTEREST ON CREDIT CARDS-LOST!
300K -Moving to new area, loss on equity in other home-LOST!
250K- 10 years of her overspending continually- MONEY LOST!!!! FOREVER
40K- MORE CREDIT CARD INTEREST DUE TO HER- LOST!!!!
100K - Repairs on your home and loss of equity- LOST!!!!
500K- Your ability to make partner due to her lack of support,her theft, and your need to move due to her overspending! LOST!!!
380K- The loss of investment income in 12 years building on the 112K she blew! LOST!
-------------
TOTAL $$$$$$$ THAT HAS BEEN FINANCIALLY LOST BECAUSE OF BEING MARRIED TO HER= $1,762,000.000!!!! LOST!!!
LOST!!!!!!


BECAUSE OF HER FINANCIAL AND EMOTIONAL IGNORANCE!!!!


-I would illustrate it to her with large signs hung up around the house. Make it clear to her. She does not realize that SHE IS THE CAUSE of her own "POORHOUSE" idea! If she is in the POORHOUSE< it is ALL BECAUSE OF HER SPENDING!!!

You two lost the ability to become wealthy in the earning years. BECAUSE OF HER!!!!

But as bad as this two million dollar loss is financially, the emotional loss to you due to her abuse and disrespect is....well.....PRICELESS!!!!

( I forgot to add in the loss of the 400K she would have made all these years working at a job to help the family....this is just what you could have made with her as a SAHM. Who did NOT overspend.)
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 10:26 PM
She needs to know that you could have become multi-millionaires now if she had not "mismanaged" your money from day one.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
She needs to know that you could have become multi-millionaires now if she had not "mismanaged" your money from day one.

Maybe he should scream and stamp his feet too.
We've all said he should stand up for himself. But he has resigned himself not to. So he gets to sleep in the bed that he made.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 10/12/10 10:48 PM
Am I not standing up for myself by placing the life insurance policy into trust? My wife accused me of lying to her. I objected to that description. I told her about the trust before I signed it. I may have been a little vague about my reasons. But I was trying to avoid shoving her face in my doubts about her. When pressed, I readily admitted that I do not trust her and would not agree to name her personally as the beneficiary. She has raised the issue several times since then, often very emotionally, and I have remained calm and firm. What more can I do?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 12:07 AM
Yes. I am glad you are taking that step. There are a few other things you may want to do:

1. Quit giving her a weekly allowance
2. Make her accountable for the money she stole
3. Take away all credit cards (again)...
4. Fire the housekeeper
5. Write out how her overspending has hurt you
6. Write out the monetary figures showing just how she put you both in the poorhouse.
7. Show her how she put her own kids in the poorhouse.
8. Some other assertive things....________

Somehow you have not clearly conveyed, with dollar and cents examples, EXACTLY HOW SHE RUINED YOU AND THE KIDS FINANCIALLY. You need to show her this.

She still does not see it. That is why she is still demanding the life insurance money, because she does not see how SHE ruined you guys financially. you need to show her until she sees it.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 12:12 AM
I think if you put her on your life insurance, she would arrange a hit just to get that money...early.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 01:16 AM
Hold, I applaud you for this change. I also wish I could give you a high five for telling her if she didn't like it she can go find someone that can support her.

I take back what I said about not standing up for yourself. Keep at it.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 02:20 AM
Hold, I think your decision-making here is sound. If her dad keeps hounding you it might be worth taking him out for coffee and explaining a small amount of the situation to him.

Something like "Dad-in-law, I have tried to keep you out of any discussion regarding finance at your request. However, I'd like you to understand why I am doing this. My primary goal is to make sure your grandkids have a safe and secure future. HoldsWife has shown over the years that she isn't capable of sticking to a budget and has run up more debts than I care to elaborate.

I have one life insurance policy which should see her well-supported in case I die, and the other policy is to do the same for the kids.

Thanks for showing an interest. So, how about them [fill in football team here]."
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 12:18 PM
Had a chat with FIL last night. Called him to discuss a DIY project we had worked on together 2 weeks ago and then moved on to the insurance. Needless to say, Mrs. Hold had not told him the full history of her overspending. She had lead him to believe it was a one time thing that ended when we moved here 10 years ago. He was surprised to hear it continues to this day. He sympathized with me for having to deal with it all these years and was unhappy that his daughter mislead him. After I told him the whole story, he changed his tune on the life insurance and now supports my idea of putting the last policy into trust. So it went as well as I could have hoped.

Discussed the call with Mrs. Hold. I had told her lunch time I planned to call him, and she did not object. However, she was very negative last night. She said "this will not be good". I told her I was relieved that her parents were now aware of the full picture, so I do not have to hide and pretend when we talk to them. She said "glad you are happy, this stinks for me". I explained that I wasn't happy, merely relieved. I asked her if she disagreed with my description of history. She said "no, you are not making it up, that is what happened."

I told her to tell her father she is taking classes and then will get a job so she is addressing this going forward. We shall see how it works itself out. I would not have discussed this with him except that he kept egging her on to fight with me and I was sure he did not have the full picture. I am pleased how well he received the message. I expected to get "shot" as the messenger. Instead, FIL thanked me. Wierd.
Posted By: itried Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 01:31 PM
holding,
Wow!!! I commend you for having the guts to stay in this M. Truly amazing! I read up to page 70 of your thread over several days. I finally had to skip to the end to see if your M had somehow recovered and became a happy & healthy union for you 2.

Guess not.

I soooooooooo wish you could take the steps to become a happy person. No one deserves to be miserable for so long. Change is not death.

You asked:
"Am I not standing up for myself by placing the life insurance policy into trust?"

Yes, you are. I think you did not go far enough. I would leave your entire estate in trust. Did your W grow up poor? I do not understand the obcession to acquire things or to try and impress people when they come over for dinner. I thought the purpose of entertaining was to enjoy each other's company, not to try and 1 up each other on who has the most expensive plateware. Sheesh!

I think your W is the most ungrateful person on Earth. How dare she sit around, not work, and complain that she does not feel she is living well enough. Unbelieveable.

I agree w/ the following from Bubbles:
"1. Quit giving her a weekly allowance
2. Make her accountable for the money she stole
3. Take away all credit cards (again)...
4. Fire the housekeeper
5. Write out how her overspending has hurt you
6. Write out the monetary figures showing just how she put you both in the poorhouse.
7. Show her how she put her own kids in the poorhouse.
8. Some other assertive things....________"

Why does she even need a housekeeper???

Holding, life is too short to be so unhappy. You have a career I'd kill for. I hope 1 day to be an attorney also. I actually got accepted into Mercer a few years back. I did well on LSAT. I have done all the paperwork on many divorces, child support, and Contempt petitions. Once my DDs are out of the house I plan to pursue law school.

Has Mrs. Holding kept the weight off?

Your thread just saddens me. I wish there was a way I could come through the pc screen and shake you up so you would want more for yourself and your family.

Best wishes,
stable
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Had a chat with FIL last night. Called him to discuss a DIY project we had worked on together 2 weeks ago and then moved on to the insurance. Needless to say, Mrs. Hold had not told him the full history of her overspending. She had lead him to believe it was a one time thing that ended when we moved here 10 years ago. He was surprised to hear it continues to this day. He sympathized with me for having to deal with it all these years and was unhappy that his daughter mislead him. After I told him the whole story, he changed his tune on the life insurance and now supports my idea of putting the last policy into trust. So it went as well as I could have hoped.

Discussed the call with Mrs. Hold. I had told her lunch time I planned to call him, and she did not object. However, she was very negative last night. She said "this will not be good". I told her I was relieved that her parents were now aware of the full picture, so I do not have to hide and pretend when we talk to them. She said "glad you are happy, this stinks for me". I explained that I wasn't happy, merely relieved. I asked her if she disagreed with my description of history. She said "no, you are not making it up, that is what happened."

I told her to tell her father she is taking classes and then will get a job so she is addressing this going forward. We shall see how it works itself out. I would not have discussed this with him except that he kept egging her on to fight with me and I was sure he did not have the full picture. I am pleased how well he received the message. I expected to get "shot" as the messenger. Instead, FIL thanked me. Wierd.


Great job talking with FIL. AndI'm proud of you for putting that one policy in trust for the kids.Good job.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 05:04 PM
Yes, setting up the insurance this way, and telling her father the truth...are both huge steps in the right direction!
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 08:16 PM

"I am simply astonished that she would try to justify her overspending. I can understand explaining why it happened. How she felt at the time. But not asserting that it was OK and I should stop viewing it as excessive or inappropriate. It is one thing to expect that after all this time I wuold forgive her. But it is another to assert that I don't need to forgive her because she didn't do anything wrong."

And this is exactly why you need move forward with the trust.

I'll bet this issue isn't over for Mrs. H. I expect her to keep after you and this will get uglier than it already is. Has she been diagnosed as a narcissistic personality? I wonder if this will be a big divide that can't be mended.
Posted By: itried Re: Hi From STIM - 10/13/10 11:24 PM
telly Your quote:

"Wow, this is rich.

I can only imagine the reaction if a man had reached over, jiggled his wife's private parts (ANY OF THEM) saying, "do you feel like anything?"

was very much on point. That was exactly what I thought when I read that.

Congrats to Mrs. Hold for getting the job at WW!:)

bubbles,
I also like your style of writing.

And this:
"Yes, it is amazing how well I can swim now that I have given up breathing air!!!"

was too funny:) Not to dismiss the issue behind your statement as being funny though.

holding,
I think your W has shown some effort lately though. At least she is willing, but not exactly enthusiastic. I am sending positive vibes to you both.

Best wishes!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Hi From STIM - 10/14/10 03:05 AM
Hold,

Adding huge kudos for your honesty and bravery with FIL...so much better than telling him to shove it. His reaction wasn't weird at all, IMO.

I caught you saying that she's still overspending to this day.

Is that correct?

Why not first address the past: When she brings it up again, why not choose honesty with W? "You were financially unfaithful to this marriage. You lied to me, you still justify, and you haven't demonstrated remorse. You betrayed our marriage and my trust. It's not okay and it won't be okay until you stop doing it."

The fiscal infidelity continues...and consider you just exposed to her father...and she did say you were honest and that is what happened.

Give her the map to recovery...what you need exactly from her for your forgiveness. Step by step. First is owning what she did, why she did it, and how and why she won't do it again. Second, going to school with the goal of entering the workforce again and paying back the total amount of the fiscal infidelity.

If she takes your steps, you could open a separate savings account, which only has money she saved from the budget right now, going in, each month, so she can see her progress.

She is capable...she can choose to do this...you know she's determined...look at the weight loss...tell her you don't doubt her ability, 'k? You know it's a choice she can make. You do believe in her.

It's no less what as parents you require of your kids if they had stolen that money from you, lying and hiding and continuing. You're not her parent...tell her you know she's chosen not to amend her bad choices all these years. And that continuing them, even in small ways, will no longer be acceptable to you.

Be sure on your policy for her, to reduce it by the amount of debt she ran up without consulting you. Tell her as the savings grows (and she can't be on that account), that in a year, you'll increase the policy for her by that much.

When she does work, one of the final steps will be to set her direct deposit to that same savings account. Still, without her being a signer on it.

Please do this as an act of love for your marriage. Crippling to not do it...continues the harm...for her and for you and for the marriage.

When she says this isn't the status she wants, tell her you know she can obtain that status, you believe in her. You do not fail her at FS...don't confuse financial infidelity with FS, 'k?

She robbed you of your monetary choices, didn't let you in on decisions, and you don't have to speak fogspeak and buy into her justifications. Your job is to point them out...when she rewrites history, you state you know she knew she was cheating.

Calmly...and when you can't speak calmly, take a break.

LA


Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 10/14/10 01:54 PM
Hold...

So glad you discussed the situation with her dad. No parent really wants to hear that their child (adult or not) has issues, but I think now he will be able to see the whole picture and adjust his answers to her in a way that reflects the truth.

I think by disclosing to him, he will be in a better position to be a friend to the marriage, to be supportive of you both. Let's hope that's how it will be.

Your wife has no choice now but to inner reflect. She has to own a little shame here, and that is part of the process, I think. It's not the sort of thing you can skip over and ignore. Accountability is part of the recovery, and parents are good at making sure that is seen through - even when their kids are adults. We can hope.





Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 10/21/10 07:45 PM
Hello Hold,

I've been gone for a couple months but pleased to see you and Mrs Hold are making progress. Even if it feels like one step forward, two steps back, from my perspective it's progress.

take care,

DTC
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 10/22/10 12:02 AM
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

We do not have, and I do not believe we will ever have, the relationship that either of us wanted when we got married. On the other hand, we have a better relationship than we had for many years. If it stays this way, I can imagine being content to stay with her after the kids leave. That is not something I would have said for much of the past 10 years.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 10/22/10 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Vibrissa
Now you may decide that you cannot meet the need to the level the paranoid person wants.

That is fine.

You are free to set your boundaries. But you will not have a happy, passionate marriage with such a person if you cannot fulfill that need.

This isn't a judgement on any party. This is pure fact.

Someone has a need. You can't meet it and you can't successfully negotiate it with POJA, you're not going to have a happy marriage.

Does that make one spouse bad or wrong.

No.

It just is.

Vibressa, thanks, this is so well stated.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 10/22/10 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
If it stays this way, I can imagine being content to stay with her after the kids leave. That is not something I would have said for much of the past 10 years.

WOW Hold, when I first started lurking on this site you would have NEVER said this. I wonder what you'll be saying in 2 more years ;-)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/02/10 02:00 PM
We have gotten our marriage to a much better place.

I still have major problems at work. Years of misguided effort coming home to roost. But I can focus on that better, now that things at home have improved.
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 11/02/10 03:29 PM
Hold,

You might be able to take some small comfort in the fact that many many people are having a hard time with work right now. Even those that have devoted their attention unfailingly to their work are facing difficulties and may find their positions in jeapordy.

The falling economy is a real leveler.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/19/10 03:07 PM
I asked Mrs. Hold if we could have sex this morning. She turned me down. She asked if we could cuddle instead. I said sure. She said she likes to cuddle, but she fears to ask for it. She thinks I will get too frustrated if we "just" cuddle. I told her not to worry about that, I like to cuddle and I would like to be asked. She said "you are beyond being frustrated, aren't you?" I agreed. We cuddled. It was pleasant. I am trying to see this as a good thing. That we know each other well. Even if it has been weeks and my needs go unmet.
Posted By: lostlovinfeeling Re: Hi From STIM - 11/19/10 04:03 PM
hold, I want to make sure that someone says what you did today was a great thing. You made your wife feel safe with you. This is beautiful
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/19/10 07:08 PM
Well, lets not get carried away. I was cleaning some papers off my desl today. Saw the most recent statement for Mrs. Hold's credit card. I knew I had given it to her so she could go to BJs last month, because we were low on paper goods. Turns out she spent $250 at BJs (about what I expected), and then spent $500 at other places that afternoon. So after paying $500 toward her balance the past 2 months, we are back where we started. I know, I know, my fault for giving her the card at all.

I noticed this just as I was about to walk out the door to join her for lunch. We rarely have lunch together, but she had errands to run downtown today so after the cuddling this morning she asked if I was free for lunch. Needless to say, lunch was somewhat subdued after I mentioned the credit card issue to her. I framed it all as "I" statements. How bad I feel when I see the balance. How much stress I feel. We tried to stay pleasant and upbeat, but there was an invisible wall between us.

On the way out from lunch, she said she doesn't want to go to NYC for New Year's this year. Normally my sister and BIL go to Florida, and we crash in their apartment. She said we can't afford to go to shows, so she would rather stay home. I suggested we go, and do low cost things like museums. She said she would rather sleep in her own bed. We'll see how she feels when we get closer to the event.

Darn. Darn. Darn. Should never have given her the card to go to BJs. Should have given her $250 in cash and told her that was all I had. I can't believe I am still making the same mistakes 10 years later.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 11/19/10 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Darn. Darn. Darn. Should never have given her the card to go to BJs. Should have given her $250 in cash and told her that was all I had. I can't believe I am still making the same mistakes 10 years later.

Ugh. Hard to believe SHE is still making the same mistakes 10 years later. What did she buy that cost $500 that you didn't notice was brought into the house?
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 11/20/10 10:53 AM
[quote=holdingontoit]I asked Mrs. Hold if we could have sex this morning.

Hold it was interesting for me reading your post, because I can't remember ever asking a woman for sex. It's true. LOL

I don't know if it was because I grew up in a cupboard or that a flat NO reply would seem to leave me nowhere to go.

I can see the direct question approach could be successful if played right.

I guess we all play to our strengths.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/22/10 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
I guess we all play to our strengths.

In no way could you describe my approach to Mrs. Hold as a "strength". It is simply an accommodation to reality. Mrs. Hold was raped. She rejects me brutally if I try to "put moves on her" with out asking for permission. So I ask for permission. Then I usually get rejected. Sometimes not as brutally, though.

I am just as much as fault as her. At this point the accumulated pain makes it almost impossible for us to deal with the situation.

Last week at parent night one of S16's buddies was waiting in the lobby for his parents. When she saw him, Mrs. Hold literally ran up to him and grabbed him in a huge bear hug. It hurt so bad to watch that, I wanted to die. Later I told her how much it hurt to see that one of S16's buddies gets better hugs than I ever get.

I know, we have so much water under the bridge. Every hug is fraught with meaning. All of it bad. So of course she gives better hugs to someone where there isn't any baggage, and the hug has not sexual overtones, and it simply isn't such a big deal. Except it is. To me.

So I do understand WHY other people get better hugs than I do. Still, it hurts that they do. Just as it hurts to get rejected when I ask. Even if I expect to get rejected most of the time.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 11/23/10 01:33 PM
Ouch Hold, that's gotta be difficult. If I was there, I'd give you a big bear hug. (((Hold)))

My kids are at the age where they don't like hugs anymore either! Are your kids like that, too, now?
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Hi From STIM - 11/23/10 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
My kids are at the age where they don't like hugs anymore either! Are your kids like that, too, now?


Ugh, hate it when they get to that age NED, went through it with the step kiddos who LOVED hugs when STBXW and I got married but didn't after a few years. Makes me appreciate all the more my kiddos now who LOVE hugs in part because they've been hugged constantly from birth... lol. My nine, soon to be ten year old even still loves them. Lucky Dad I guess. smile

hold, just curious I guess, what did she say when you told her how that made you feel?

Travis
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/23/10 03:39 PM
tccoastguard: How did she react?
She said I was wrong. That she gives me lots of hugs. Then she gave me a quick squeeze and when I tried to pull her closer she pulled away. But that was yesterday. Today is a new day.

Interesting development this morning. Mrs. Hold was talking to me about her conversation last night with S16. He has been unhappy lately. Even when he scored 4 goals in 2 jv games and the coach moved him up to varsity, he was sad. So we took him to a counsellor. S16 explained that he puts pressure on himself to "win" at everything. We tell him "just try your best and that is good enough" but he feels he has to be perfect.

S16 mentioned me during his talk with the counsellor last night. S16 said "he went to great schools and he is a great guy and he has a great family but he feels like a total failure because he doesn't make $1 million per year". Which is all true.

After explaining all this to me, Mrs. Hold said "my new plan is to show you a bit of affection every day before you leave for work. Would you like a hug?" Then she gave me a nice hug.

Wow. 18+ years of marriage. 8 years of MC. 5 years of post-MC emptiness. At no point does she show any signs that she accepts that her lack of affection might affect me negatively. But 1 day after S16 admits that my depression is affecting him. Suddenly it is a high priority for her that I not feel like such a failure.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Posted By: xo13 Re: Hi From STIM - 11/23/10 03:49 PM
The power of affection!! If you could only bottle it up and sell it?!?!? I think one could make a million+! Thank you for another insightful post!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/29/10 01:52 PM
Mrs. Hold drove me to work today. As I got out and said "have a nice day", she said "you too". Then she said "oh, I forgot, I said once a day every day". Then she leaned forward and gave me a peck on the cheek. Nice. Guess she was serious.
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 11/29/10 03:02 PM
Oh Hold.

I hate to be a downer, because it is actually a positive developtment.

But what is wrong with you (and ME) that ONE sign of affection a day feels like a big deal?

What did you (we) settle for?!

Sorry. I know that's not helpful.

Please carry on with feeling happy about this... development.

(And I"m sorry your son feels depressed, btw. Good for you guys for getting your children help when they need it).
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 11/29/10 04:41 PM
Telly, you are always welcome on my threads. You think eeyore notices when it gets cloudy?

Mrs. Hold is not getting the FS or RC she expected. I am not getting the SF or Affection. We both could curl up into a ball and stop living (which we have both done in the past).

Or we can try to improve, and focus on any progress. She is making progress. I like it. So I post here. And I tell her. Hoping it will continue. The mere fact that I can hope is progress!
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 11/30/10 01:57 PM
You made me smile, my friend.

Fwiw, when my H and I made up after an argument last night, I felt good. And then I thought, "Hey! I WOULD be happy with one genuine, unsolicited expression of affection each day!" Lol!

I see the sun peeking out now... (but there's still a pretty good chance of rain in this 100 acre wood).

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/06/10 02:55 PM
Saturday night both kids were at parties. Mrs. Hold and I went to dinner late after running some errands. Mrs. Hold was describing how much she enjoyed some cocktail she had when she went out with girlfriends on Thursday. I told her I needed to learn how to make that cocktail. She expresed doubt that I could make the drink properly. Then a song came on the radio. She said that S16 had expressed surprise that she liked this song. I said sonething like "he doesn't understand you, we need to get you back to your party girl roots."

She went ballistic. She said something like "you have no idea how much that hurts me to hear. You are supposed to keep me safe. You are supposed to protect me."

I was surprised she had such a strong reaction to what I intended to be a lighthearted comment. But after giving it some thought I can see her point. She doesn't want to get drunk or high, because back when she used to do that guys took advantage of her. She feels she needs to stay sober so she can remain on alert. I can understand those feelings.

Still, it hurts that she feels she needs to stay on alert from me. And she does. I am not safe for her. I do want sex. I would consider encouraging her to drink more if I thought it would result in more sex for me. I feel that is some ways I am now like the guys who took advantage of her.

It is clear that she does not view sex with me as different from sex with others. It is not something beautiful and special we share as part of our love. It is me taking something from her. It is me getting something off her and her giving it up. Ugh. Makes me feel like puking. Not that this is a surprise by any means. But the vehemence with which she said "you are supposed to keep me SAFE" shows me how averse she is to sex with me. It is so visceral for her. So sad for both of us.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/06/10 10:48 PM
Mrs. Hold called me several times at work today. She was clearly looking for affirmation that our bond is still strong. Despite the lack of sex. And her talking to me in an obnoxious tone.

Her tone has been particularly nasty the past few days. In fact, so bad that S16 complained Saturday night that he didn't appreciate her tone. She tried to excuse it by saying she was not feeling well. He had none of it. Told her he didn't do anything to deserve her tone. She got quiet.

She knows she was no fun to be with this past weekend. She wants me to excuse it. I will not. I was polite and friendly, but not warm and loving. SOSO.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 12/07/10 07:07 AM
Is there some reason that she might be feeling triggered by something outside of your family? Maybe a bit of digging is in order.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/07/10 03:18 PM
H2CU: She was raped several times. She chose me as a husband because I am gentle and passive. She thought my disposition would preclude me from pressuring her for sex. She was wrong. SF is my #1 EN and over time I have pressed very hard for it. So you are correct, she was triggered by her past. And ours.

I am sure her past plays a role in our dynamic, but she denies it so I must respect her wishes and leave that topic off the table. She could not be more clear or consistent in her position that my role is to protect her and keep her safe from sex. I have rejected that role in the past, because I had the naive hope that eventually she wuold relent and permit us to have sex on a regular basis. I now understand my hope is a figment of my imagination. As long as I stay with her, my job is to ensure that she is never called upon to engage in sex. I may not enjoy my job. But I am determined to perform it to the best of my ability. Pretty much dooms any chance for romantic love in our marriage. But I gave that up a long time ago.

Look at my join date. I have been here a long time. With little progress to show for it. In large part my fault for not working to improve myself sufficiently. Not that improving myself would likely result in more sex. But I would feel better about myself and be more open to taking action that would rectify the situation.

That is why, although I laud the MB system and suggest that others implement it, I have given up using it in my marriage. If I am unwilling to do the work to improve myself, I am not implementing the full program. And without the full program, MB will not succeed. As I said, I have given up hope of ever being romantically in love with my spouse. Or she with me. But we parent fairly well, and I am not sure that would continue if we divorced, so I am intent on staying together while the kids are living with us. After that, who knows.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 03:39 PM
Mrs. Hold made a big deal this morning of explaining her schedule and apologizing for being so busy the past few weeks (Weight Watchers rolled out a new program so the meetings are extra busy so they asked her to do extra shifts as receptionist). She said that the rush will be over this week, so she won't have to work on Tuesday mornings in the future. She offered to have Tuesday morning be "our time".

I should be ecstatic. This is what I hoped and prayed for all those years. That she would show some interest in making time for me.

But I do not feel happy or glad or thankful. I feel resentment and spite. That it has taken so long to make time for me. And that it takes such an effort for her to force herself to have sex with me. I am thinking about working from NYC on Tuesdays so I have to leave early and thus would not be available to spend time with her. I know, cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Hopefully I will have the guts to talk with her about how I feel. Talking to her will, undoubtedly, destroy her enthusiasm for spending Tuesday mornings with me. But it is a talk we should have.

I just feel she is so disgusted by the thought of sex with me, how can I feel good about having sex with her? Even if she grants consent, it is clear she gets nothing out of it. It is total pity and obligation. I used to want her to feel obliged. Now I just want it all to go away.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 04:05 PM
Stop that dance. Passive aggressive BS! Tell her how you feel nicely. Don't make a work commitment to get one over on her. She is being honest with you and making time for you. Show her your appreciation.

She is doing the right thing and you punish her.

Go ahead, go to NY...maybe with her extra free time she can go shopping.
Posted By: ItsTemporary Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 04:13 PM
I've been reading your thread for a long time and I know all the work you've put in and I'm familiar with your history. What if all of your effort is just now really sinking in? It must be really frustrating and sad to look at how LONG you've been doing this. I feel for you. I think you owe it to yourself to just show up on Tuesday. Dig deep and find a way to set your resentment aside for just a little while. Maybe you'll give up on Wednesday, and that's okay. But give Tuesday a try.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Stop that dance. Passive aggressive BS! Tell her how you feel nicely.

Yes, you are correct. That is what I should do.

Now how do I tell her "nicely"? Tell her I really appreciate the offer, but I am internally conflicted about whether I want to have sex with her? Part of me wants to. But part of me feels it is selling out my integrity for a "cheap thrill". Hope that she asks what she could do to help me be whole-heartedly enthusiastic about having sex with her? When I expect that she will throw up her hands and say "I can't win" and storm out of the room.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 04:44 PM
Actually, maybe start with that....tell her you are conflicted and concerned about telling her because you are afraid of her response and don't want to hurt her.

Tell her how awesome it feels that she is making time for you and yet how difficult it is to feel that without gearing up for disappointment immediately afterward.

Maybe you can suggest a nice breakfast and a backrub or something instead? My assumption is this will be a weekly thing right? Just tell her you love her and appreciate the thought but you are a bit "gun shy" and would rather just cuddle and spend enjoyable time together.

I'm sorry I jumped on you. You are actually a lot like me. The thing is, my DH started doing nice things and I was completely doubtful...so far he has kept doing them. Sure he falters and I have to resist going back to AH HA! I knew you didn't mean it!

I am trying to enjoy the moment and forget expectations and above all else make decisions from the best part of me, not passive aggressive revenge.

Good luck.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 06:28 PM
She could not be more clear or consistent in her position that my role is to protect her and keep her safe from sex.

Honestly, Hold, I think you're rewriting this to suit your own insecurities. If anything, I would say she's talking about other men, not you. Clarification might be in order, as I could be wrong, but it just seems off to me, the way you're perceiving this. She could also be talking about drunk sex with any man.

And if she proves you right, I would tell her you didn't sign up for that job - that you deserve normalcy in your marriage. That includes a normal friendship and normal sex life with your wife.

Hold...I've seen this before - on another board, where an adult SA survivor was shocked and disappointed when her husband stopped coddling due to the SA like 20 years previous, way before he came along. She was comparing her husband to a previous relationship where the boyfriend basically took on the personae of a white knight or something in her mind. He wanted to save her from her childhood abuse and make her life all right again. She was pining for that sort of special treatment.

I said 'Maybe your husband is giving you the gift of normalcy. Maybe he just wants to allow you the same sort of life as any other woman. Maybe he doesn't see you as just a SA survivor. Maybe he doesn't define you in a primary sense as this VICTIM. Maybe he sees you as a full-blooded, intelligent woman and knows there is a a lot more to you than your past.'

Maybe you could tell your wife these things too, if they're true, and tell her that it's time she allowed herself permission to enjoy sex and whatever else she has been denying herself (providing they don't cross the line.)

I think when a SA survivor reaches adulthood, those around them who know of the abuse can offer special treatment, special allowances, whatever, but doing so may actually perpetuate the abuse and keep it going, keep it harming. It stifles that survivor from reaching their potential in other areas of their life. I think when we focus too strongly on that unfortunate past, we can allow it to define that person and not just to them, but to others too.

Lots of mature couples schedule sex and have good marriages, Hold, but you can bond in other ways on Tuesdays too. Don't revamp your work schedule. Keep yourself free. Take her out for breakfast instead for a while and just see how it goes if you feel the need.



Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 10:25 PM
Of course I will be available Tuesday. I am posting here to purge myself of the spiteful thoughts so I can be open to her advances if she follows through on her "threat" to be available on Tuesday.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 12/08/10 10:30 PM


lol.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 12/09/10 03:16 AM
Hold, I'm familiar with your background, I've been reading your thread for a long time. What I meant, is there some outside incident recently that is making her cranky and belligerent.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/09/10 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Soolee
Clarification might be in order, as I could be wrong, but it just seems off to me, the way you're perceiving this. She could also be talking about drunk sex with any man.

Extremely unlikely. Her point was clear. My memory as to the wording is what is unclear. What I said about her going back to being a party girl had the clear implication that I wanted to get her drunk or high so she would be more inclined to have sex with me. I am not trying to paper over my behavior. That was in fact what I was thinking. She took offense to it. My bad.

Quote
And if she proves you right, I would tell her you didn't sign up for that job - that you deserve normalcy in your marriage. That includes a normal friendship and normal sex life with your wife.

I have told her that during marriage counselling. Her response was basically "then find another wife". Or to be fair, she responded that what we have is normal and that I am messed up to expect that middle aged people with kids continue to have sex. Remember, she does not admit that her past has any impact on her current behavior. She claims she has gotten past it (despite never telling anyone until decades later and never seeking any counselling to deal with it) and it is not relevant to our marriage.

Quote
Hold...I've seen this before - on another board, where an adult SA survivor was shocked and disappointed when her husband stopped coddling due to the SA like 20 years previous, way before he came along. She was comparing her husband to a previous relationship where the boyfriend basically took on the personae of a white knight or something in her mind. He wanted to save her from her childhood abuse and make her life all right again. She was pining for that sort of special treatment.

I am not trying to save her or make it all right. In fact, quite the opposite. I have told her if she wants someone who would back off and remove any pressure for sex, she needs to find someone else because I am not that guy.

Quote
I think when a SA survivor reaches adulthood, those around them who know of the abuse can offer special treatment, special allowances, whatever, but doing so may actually perpetuate the abuse and keep it going, keep it harming. It stifles that survivor from reaching their potential in other areas of their life. I think when we focus too strongly on that unfortunate past, we can allow it to define that person and not just to them, but to others too.

I can see that mechanism being relevant to other cases. In her case, she never told anyone (her parents still do not know) so there isn't anyone to coddle her.

Quote
Lots of mature couples schedule sex and have good marriages, Hold, but you can bond in other ways on Tuesdays too. Don't revamp your work schedule. Keep yourself free. Take her out for breakfast instead for a while and just see how it goes if you feel the need.

I don't know what I want. I don't know what I feel. That aspect of the problem is inside me. Breakfast with my wife is not going to resolve that. Neither is sex. I need to decide whether I want this marriage to heal. Right now I am holding her at arms length and not allowing her into my heart. There is no hope for a return to romantic love until I choose to let down the barriers. I am getting more payoff from denying her and pushing her away than I get from interacting with her. That has to change before we can repair the damage. And it has to change inside me.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/12/10 09:11 AM
Quote from Hold.

"And as for why I come here, after telling myself for 15 years (not without justification) that my marriage stinks, I need to keep reminding myself that within the past few months it has gotten better. So that my internal emotions match up with the new and improved reality. Hopefully that will help motivate me to improve other areas of my life. Had a nice weekend. Mrs. Hold cooked yummy food for us before the fast and more yummy food to help us break the fast.

With sex off the table, we get along much better.

This morning, on her way out to the gym (I was still in bed), Mrs. Hold leaned over, gave me a kiss on the forehead, and said "FYI, the gym is closed tomorrow, so I don't have any exercise class in the morning. Just so you know."

We now have definitive proof that ANYTHING is possible if you wait long enough."




Hold you seemed be doing really well at that point.

Do you know what happened to him?

Do you think you can find him again?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/13/10 12:36 PM
Jack, no idea. He visits very rarely. Mrs. Hold made herself available unexpectedly today. I was unable to perform. I have pills but they take time to work so no use when we only have a small window before the kids wake up. The whole thing stinks.

Was planning to get up early and take a pill tomorrow. Now I am in a dark place so I might pass on the whole thing. Yes, I know, self defeating and only myself to blame.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 10:43 AM
A hero is made in the moment,not from questioning the past or fearing what's to come.

Just read that on a stock trading site
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
A hero is made in the moment,not from questioning the past or fearing what's to come.

Just read that on a stock trading site


Sounds like a good quote to encourage investors to make stupid, impulsive decisions.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 04:13 PM
Took a pill this morning. Mrs. Hold did not make herself available. Pretty much expected, since making herself available 2 days in a row is an exceedingly rare event. The night I found out about the overspending and the next morning was the first time. I believe there may have been 1 or 2 other times catalogued here. So I was expected her to back out, but I took the pill to be ready to hold up my end if called upon. Thank goodness for generics from India. If I had to pay $20 for a pill that was "wasted" on solo sex, I would be angry.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 05:00 PM
Did you ask?
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Did you ask?

No....he wouldn't ask. Too risky.

'make herself available'?

Sometimes you two sound like you are living in the Victorian Age or something.

Strange...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 08:37 PM
I made it clear I had taken a pill. She made it clear she wanted to attend the spin class. I did not insist we have sex because that makes me feel even more like I am foisting myself on her. She dissociates even when she has wholeheartedly consented. If she consented begrudgingly, I don't like to think about how far away her mind would travel. After that kind of session, I feel unclean. Better to smile and say "sure, go ahead and do the class, I know you are worried about your next weigh in, you can make it up to me later."

Anyone care to start the betting pool on when I can collect my "rain check"?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 08:43 PM
Pondering Radical Honesty in this situation. I would in fact be enthusiastic about her going to spinnng class if I thought there was a snowball's chance in heck that she would make it up to me later. Then again, I didn't want her to stay home and have sex, because once she said she would rther spin I was no longer interested in having sex today. Radical Honesty would have required a long conversation about expectations and negotiating ground rules for future interactions. Neither of us was enthusiastic about having that conversation this morning when Mrs. Hold was rushing to get out the door for exercise class.

Guess I should find some time tonight to share my disappointment. I so hate these conversations. There is never any progress and both of us end up feeling like failures.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 09:14 PM
You know, Hold, this all makes me shake my head. She's not really having to give up anything and you're making a ton of sacrifice. Sure she doesn't have the 8000 square foot house but she's running off to spin class and can do some shopping and what not.

Geez, if this wasn't MB, I'd say it's time to get selfish, be brutally honest. Your situation makes me angry.
Posted By: Gdar Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I made it clear I had taken a pill. She made it clear she wanted to attend the spin class. I did not insist we have sex because that makes me feel even more like I am foisting myself on her. She dissociates even when she has wholeheartedly consented. If she consented begrudgingly, I don't like to think about how far away her mind would travel. After that kind of session, I feel unclean. Better to smile and say "sure, go ahead and do the class, I know you are worried about your next weigh in, you can make it up to me later."

Anyone care to start the betting pool on when I can collect my "rain check"?

So, you take the pill and THEN notify her? What about asking if it would make sense for you to take, so you know if the pill will be wasted, or not? That sounds passive aggressive to me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/14/10 09:42 PM
It wasn't the pill. Same dynamic if I ask her "last week you said Tuesday morning would be 'our time'. Are we still 'on' for today?" The look on her face would make it clear she wanted to spin. I know she figures that yesterday's offer excuses today. Hence the need to have a detailed, caring, understanding discussion of why spontaneous doesn't work for me at this point and why I need her to keep to a schedule.

A couple in love and without a history of mismatched libido would be able to navigate this easily. For us, I would rather have various body parts amputated than have this conversation yet again. I know I need to anyway. I will. I will dutifully report back to describe the carnage.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/10 09:45 AM
Hold,
I do wonder if there is purpose in this conversation that you "need" to have?
Is there something that you need to tell your wife that she does not already know?
Do you need to ask her something that you have not yet figured out? I think not.

I an thinking your wife probably would also rather have body parts removed than have the conversation yet again.
To be honest it would probably put me off sex for another month. But we are all different, I don't know your wife.

It seems to me you need to think of a winning plan. Or at least a plan that might even have a small chance of success.
What you have been doing for the last 20 years isn't working so maybe you should try something different.

I think you could come up with a winning plan. Maybe it's time to give it a try?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/10 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by jackblack
Is there something that you need to tell your wife that she does not already know?

Actually, there is. In past years, "performance" was never a problem for me. As you probably gather, she doesn't "help" in any way. But that never mattered before. Now I need some help if I am to perform. Which requires us to venture into areas of behavior we have so far avoided - hence the need for communication. Or we need to restrict her advances to ocassions where we have enough time for me to get my help from a blue pill. Which means she cannot be spontaneous and expect good results.

Also, part of this is clearly psychological. In the past, it didn't bother me that she dissociated and mentally flew off to Planet X when we had sex. She consented and that was enough for me. Now I feel bad when she offers "mere" consent. Not sure she realizes this new perspective. Reducing my anxiety about whether I am taking advantage of her would be much easier if she would share her thoughts and feelings about why she is consenting and how she feels about having sex in these circumstances.

The performance issues on my part are new to both of us. So is my resistance to accepting her consent. So yes, I think there are topics for discussion that are not hackneyed. That doesn't mean it will be a pleasant conversation for either of us.

Quote
How about trying something new?

Come on Jack. You know I am never going to try anything that might actually work. That would either require that I become a big success at work - which terrifies me. Or leave Mrs. Hold - which terrifies me. I would much rather stay comfortably ensconced in my misery than brave the dark waters of change.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Quote
How about trying something new?

Come on Jack. You know I am never going to try anything that might actually work. That would either require that I become a big success at work - which terrifies me. Or leave Mrs. Hold - which terrifies me. I would much rather stay comfortably ensconced in my misery than brave the dark waters of change.


Hold what I was talking about, is you coming up with a plan that might have a chance of creating more interest/ desire in Mrs Hold, for your relationship .
I am yet to be convinced that you leaving is a good winning plan to do that. You need another plan. I'm sure you have got one.

As for riches? They can be a 2 edge sword (She only loves me for my money). HOG.ASX will bring home the bacon so no need to worry.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 01:17 PM
Hold, I have a quick legal question over on my thread, would you please tell me what you think?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
Hold what I was talking about, is you coming up with a plan that might have a chance of creating more interest/ desire in Mrs Hold, for your relationship .[quote]

As for riches? They can be a 2 edge sword (She only loves me for my money).

How can I make this any clearer. There is nothing that will create any more interest or desire in Mrs. Hold other than my earning lots more money, taking her on fancy vacations, buying her a fancy car, jewelry, clothes, etc. She expected that when we got married. She is disappointed that it has not happened. And that disappointment prevents her from having any interest in me sexually. The potential to earn big money was all I thought I had to offer a woman, and so it isn't any surprise that I got a woman who wanted me for my money. The only problem with that is that I don't have any.

Well, that plus my decided lack of physical attractiveness. But she knew all about that before we got married. We each made a deal with the devil. We both got what we deserved.

At least I have to keep telling myself that. Because the only other explanation for our situation is that her sexual history has caused her to separate sex from emotions. So she cannot tolerate sex within the context of an emotionally intimate relationship. If that were true, the solution would be for her to address her anxiety. Which she has steadfastly refused to do.

If the problem is her PTSD and not my lack of wealth, then I am not doomed to failure. I might be able to find another woman who would actually be willing to have sex with me. If I believed that, I would have to leave Mrs. Hold. Which I refuse to do. So I will not allow myself to believe that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 02:56 PM
NED, which thread? I don't see one started by you. In this forum?
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
NED, which thread? I don't see one started by you. In this forum?

It's linked in her sig. smile
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 04:33 PM
I don't think you have to have a conversation about this with her.

I think YOU need to have a plan.

Just because she "makes herself available" or "initiates" does NOT mean you have to take her up on it.

You need a plan for those times, to be direct IN THE MOMENT.

"Wife, I would love to be with you, but it will take about 15 minutes for pill to take effect. I dont' have that kind of time this morning, but I am certainly looking forward to our SCHEDULED time to be together tomorrow". Or something along those lines.

Don't talk to her about it--it only adds pressure to her, and depression to YOU.

She did a good thing by offering (though I suspect she knew she had spin class the next day, and wanted an out). Doesn't let her OUT of the next day's planned session. And if you address it in teh moment, you will both feel more manly, and you will increase your chance of getting what you want.

No more "wah wah wah, this doesn't work for me" talk... (in my opinion). SHe doesn't care!!!! BE direct and honest (radically so) IN THE MOMENT.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/10 08:44 PM
Telly, that is a great idea. I need to be more honest in the moment.

This morning on her way out (after the ritual peck on the cheek to show me Affection) Mrs. Hold said "seeya" in a cheery tone.
I replied "no I won't, that is the problem".
She asked "what do you mean, where are you going?"
I said "no where but you are going to work and I am going to work so I won't see you all day. Bummer."
She said "that is a sweet thought, thank you."
Then she left.

I don't think I have done a good job of communicating how much our relationship dominates my thoughts every waking moment, and in such a negative manner. Most of the time I talk to her in a very loving if co-dependent manner. Exactly what Harley warns against. I repress and resent and then it builds up and I self-sabotage. Deeply embedded pattern that I have not been motivated to change. Maybe as we get closer to the kids leaving, I will be brave enough to be honest more of the time.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/17/10 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I don't think I have done a good job of communicating how much our relationship dominates my thoughts every waking moment, and in such a negative manner. Most of the time I talk to her in a very loving if co-dependent manner. Exactly what Harley warns against. I repress and resent and then it builds up and I self-sabotage. Deeply embedded pattern that I have not been motivated to change. Maybe as we get closer to the kids leaving, I will be brave enough to be honest more of the time.


Hold what Telly wrote is a good example of how to interact with your wife confidently, positively and in the moment.
Waiting 5 or 6 years to tell your wife about about your "negative manner", is neither positive or confident nor in the moment.

How does your wife feel about your down ramping of self?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/17/10 02:37 PM
She hates it. She feels she tied her wagon to the wrong horse. Which, of course, is correct. I have given up on trying to succeed. I am done trying to get my needs met. I just want it all to go away.

I have been treated for depression on and off for the last 30+ years. Nothing makes any difference. I never feel better.

I don't spend much time reminding my wife of this because then she might leave me. But she knows.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/18/10 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
She hates it.
I don't spend much time reminding my wife of this because then she might leave me. But she knows.


Of course she hates it.
The perception of yourself that you build up in a woman�s mind is where her sexual drive comes from.
We have all tried the begging bowl way (poor me), but it doesn't work. The best we can expect is sympathy and sympathy sex. Who wants that?
Ever wonder why so many so many guys that have nothing going for them, end up with attractive women?
The reason is that they think he is a great guy. In surveys it is shown that most women would choose a guy that makes them laugh over a guy that is rich. A woman can marry a guy because he is rich, but that doesn�t mean she really wants to have sex with him.
What causes women to want to have sex is the interaction that leaves them feeling he is a great guy.
A great guy isn�t someone who brings them flowers everyday. That is a desperate person.
Telly gave a great example of the calm, confident, interaction of a great guy.
It's all in the words and more how you say them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/20/10 03:20 PM
Yes, I understand confidence is key. I understand seeing myself as a great guy is key. Why the heck do you think I am so pessimistic?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/21/10 01:55 PM
I got a small raise and a good bonus yesterday. Plus they agreed to get me a dedicated parking slot in the garage, so I guess they aren't planning on getting rid of me anytime soon. Feels really good, especially since I hadn't heard anything in months. I spent 4 months putting together my presentation and nagging my department head and HR to get back to me. So after 2 months of no response, I figured they didn't plan on doing anything but also didn't have the guts to tell me to my face. So when the department head walked in and gave me a sealed envelope yesterday, I was very pleasantly surprised. In this economy, any positive progress is great. I am trying to soak up the good feeling and not let eeyore back in for at least a few days. Mrs. Hold gave me a big hug and told me to go buy something for myself to celebrate. Mostly I want to pay off debt, but I might get myself a new car radio. Right now between the mp3 player and the Sirius radio and the gps unit, my front seat and dashboard are a tangle of wires.

Anyway, had to share the good news with you guys.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 12/21/10 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I got a small raise and a good bonus yesterday. Plus they agreed to get me a dedicated parking slot in the garage, so I guess they aren't planning on getting rid of me anytime soon. Feels really good, especially since I hadn't heard anything in months. I spent 4 months putting together my presentation and nagging my department head and HR to get back to me. So after 2 months of no response, I figured they didn't plan on doing anything but also didn't have the guts to tell me to my face. So when the department head walked in and gave me a sealed envelope yesterday, I was very pleasantly surprised. In this economy, any positive progress is great. I am trying to soak up the good feeling and not let eeyore back in for at least a few days. Mrs. Hold gave me a big hug and told me to go buy something for myself to celebrate. Mostly I want to pay off debt, but I might get myself a new car radio. Right now between the mp3 player and the Sirius radio and the gps unit, my front seat and dashboard are a tangle of wires.

Anyway, had to share the good news with you guys.

That is awesome Hold. Glad you got some positive news.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/23/10 02:19 PM
Mrs. Hold has been incredibly pleasant the past few days. She keeps referring to me as "Big Time". It is crystal clear that FS is the key to her heart. Hopefully I can build upon the positive momentum in that area.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Hi From STIM - 12/23/10 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold has been incredibly pleasant the past few days. She keeps referring to me as "Big Time". It is crystal clear that FS is the key to her heart. Hopefully I can build upon the positive momentum in that area.


hold,

That much seems obvious at this point but do you know where the threshold is? How much do you have to make, how much success do you have to have before you've reached that point of satisifaction with Mrs. Hold? Or is it the forward progress, the continued accomplishments at work that she finds important? Do you know how successful you have to be to meet her needs?

Travis
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/24/10 08:39 AM
Hold,

It is always good being rewarded or recognized for work well done. It is also nice that Mrs Hold shows appreciation. I think it means the most to family and colleges.

My daughter rang a few days ago, all excited, to tell me she had just got a 10% bonus. Naturally I was delighted for her.

The thing is Hold, I don�t expect anything from my daughter and I think it is a little ungracious to again pin FS on to all of Mrs Hold�s motivations. Even if it is true.

Rather, I think Mrs Hold is genuinely happy for you. She seems to have turned a corner some time ago.

Don�t turn the clock back. You can not win her with money. That�s prostitution.
Just how many cars can you give a woman away? It�s a loosing hand.

Enjoy the simple moments as they come and it will be enough.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/28/10 04:20 PM
Just spent several days at home. Lots of snuggling. No sex. I am content. Imagine that.

Thank goodness my sex drive has mostly disappeared. In the end, by waiting me out she "won" our battle of wills. I am trying not to hold that against her, and drop my resentment. I think she sees that, and I think it helps her offer the increased amount of cuddling that is helping me overcome my resentment.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 10:22 AM
Hold, it is a womans job to try and knock the man off his perch.
She doesn't want him to fall off though, because then nobody wins.

Being contented is good.

PS Hope you spent all your bonus on bacon. Jan 2011 the raging boar comes out of the pen.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 02:50 PM
Back on the roller coaster. My fault.

After dinner last night Mrs. Hold said something like "you know me, I jump full force into everything I do". I replied "well, all but one thing". She gave me the death gaze. "Does that mean what I think it means? OMG, I can't believe you said that."

Since then she said she isn't taking to me, and she is rethinking whether I am the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with.

I apologized, but also said she needs to get out of denial. Maybe what I said hurt her feelings, but it is not a shocking, unexpected announcement. It is consistent with countless discussions over the past 15 years. If she is rethinking our entire relationship over that one bad joke, then she hasn't been listening to anything I have been saying for the past 19 years.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 02:53 PM
And is she aware that she may not be the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 03:16 PM
She should be. One of the things she complained about after my statement was her surprise when I said "lately things have been much better between us". She said something like "maybe things have changed for you, but who says they have changed for me?" I told her to please keep me apprised of how she feels about us. I will do the same. As I have. I told her that recently I was content with "us", which was basically the first time I felt that way since day 2 of our honeymoon. I have told her for the past 15+ years that I am unhappy and for the past 6 have said I cannot see past the kids graduation. We had marriage counselling sessions where she said "he just said he is leaving when the kids leave". I replied that I couldn't say one way or the other. My recent statements of contentment would be seen in that context by anyone who was paying attention. My wife is far from stupid. She knows exactly where she stands. If not, it is because she won't allow herself to know. Not because I haven't told her.

Just yesterday she said something like "I never realized that side of our life was such an epic fail for you". Really? Never realized? After 8 years of marriage counselling? After countless private conversations? You thought I was PRETENDING to be unhappy about our sex life? REALLY?!?!?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 03:24 PM
This has prob been asked a million times. Have you guys attempted counceling with the Harleys?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 03:34 PM
Neither of us is willing to make the changes required. Not playing the martyr or the saint here. I am not any more willing to change than she is.
Posted By: lostlovinfeeling Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 04:42 PM
Quote
I am not any more willing to change


Why?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 05:03 PM
I am afraid.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 05:05 PM
Of what?
Posted By: gg615 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Back on the roller coaster. My fault.

After dinner last night Mrs. Hold said something like "you know me, I jump full force into everything I do". I replied "well, all but one thing". She gave me the death gaze. "Does that mean what I think it means? OMG, I can't believe you said that."

Since then she said she isn't taking to me, and she is rethinking whether I am the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with.

I apologized, but also said she needs to get out of denial. Maybe what I said hurt her feelings, but it is not a shocking, unexpected announcement. It is consistent with countless discussions over the past 15 years. If she is rethinking our entire relationship over that one bad joke, then she hasn't been listening to anything I have been saying for the past 19 years.

Your wife sounds controlling and maniupulative (and her methods work). She has not had to listen because what she does works.

Gg
Posted By: lostlovinfeeling Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 05:19 PM
Quote
Of what?


Ditto
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 08:43 PM
Fear of success. Fear of failure. Fear of change. Fear that whatever else I do will be even worse than what I have now.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 08:55 PM
What is worse than what you have now?

And how likely is it?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 01/03/11 08:57 PM
HOLD, find some men friends who are strong and won't put up with woman like your wife...and then emulate them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/04/11 03:46 PM
Warning: victim puke ahead:

Bubbles, men who are strong and won't put up with women like my wife find me contemptible and don't want to spend time with me. Men are just as good at women at sniffing out weakness.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/05/11 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
she is rethinking whether I am the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with.

I apologized, but also said she needs to get out of denial. Maybe what I said hurt her feelings, but it is not a shocking, unexpected announcement. It is consistent with countless discussions over the past 15 years. If she is rethinking our entire relationship over that one bad joke,

Hold, you do need to ask yourself a few questions.

What were you thinking her response would be to your bad joke?

Is your wifes response of "things not being better her lately", a defensive throw away? Or is there more to it and that you are not reading it?

What do you think your wife wants from a relationship (besides 10 million dollars)?

Hold the reality is that your wife chose you/ married you because she liked you. You really did not have to then do anything. All you had to do, is not mess it up.

You need to keep in mind that 19yrs of resentments on both sides will take more than a few weeks to unwind.




Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/05/11 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by jackblack
What were you thinking her response would be to your bad joke?

Frankly, I thought that she would agree with me. I can't imagine that inside her mind she thinks she is working toward having a great sex life FOR HER, or toward having sessions that are more physically pleasurable FOR HER. I cannot remember a single instance in which she asked for anything that would make sex better FOR HER. Except for me to hurry up and finish so it would be over.

Originally Posted by Jackblack
Hold the reality is that your wife chose you/ married you because she liked you. You really did not have to then do anything. All you had to do, is not mess it up.

Jack, my wife married me because she thought she was marrying big money and she thought I was "safe" - meaning I would not pressure her for sex. I am a fairly wimpy guy and it never occurred to her that asking for sex from my wife was going to turn out to be the only area of my life in which I relentlessly press for what I want. What she liked about me was in her head and not real. I have never been the guy she thought she was marrying. I tried to tell her that before we got married. She did not believe me.

Similarly, I thought I was marrying someone who found me sexually attractive. She said "to me, smart is sexy" and I believed her. But it wasn't true. She was never interested in the sexual side of our relationship. The signs were there before we got married, but I ignored them. She made excuses for why we didn't have as much sex as I desired and I accepted the excuses as being temporary conditions. Instead of looking at the bigger picture and realizing the pattern told the true story.

We will never meet each other's needs. I can live with whining and complaining and not getting my needs met. I am trying to see if she agrees that both of us are not getting our needs met. And won't be getting our needs met. But wish to stay together regardless. If she is saying that she is only interested in staying if I meet her needs, we have a problem.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by jackblack
What were you thinking her response would be to your bad joke?

Frankly, I thought that she would agree with me.

Hold we all put our foot in it sometimes, that's life, but I do not know where you get your ideas from.
You can not harrass and embarrass your wife into being enthusiastic about sex. It wont work. It will be fatal. The position becomes almost irretrievable. I'm sure MB does not promote it. I do not know about the "nice guy site" I have not read any of his articles.

The thing is, each time you associate sex in a negative way to your wife, it reinforces that postion. The next time sex is thought of or about to happen your wife will remember the joke and her brain is going to say to her, "I am not enthusiastic about this." The chances of her then enjoying it are nil.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 02:22 PM
I understand exactly the mechanism you are describing. Remember, my wife recently said "I don't feel anything when you touch me down there, no sensation at all". As you say, I cannot get that thought out of my head. Any time we have sex, I am wondering what she is feeling, wondering why I even bother touching her, and it sucks all the enjoyment out of it for me. That is one factor in why I am so much less insistent on having sex with her these days. I don't enjoy it any more.

Jack, I don't expect my wife to ever be enthusiastic about sex. Or to enjoy it. We are already long past irretrievable. That is the point.

I am not trying to get her to have more or "better" sex with me. I am trying to get her to admit and accept she never will. I want her to stop trying to be more available, so I can feel better about not making as much money as she wishes I made.

I am the poster boy for why not doing MB is stupid. You don't have to be a jerk or evil to fail at marriage. You just have to stop meeting each other's needs. We lost it so long ago, and so completely, we cannot get it back. That is why I post to others "do MB, and don't be like me". Because I am living what happens when you don't. Even 2 well-meaning people can ruin each other's lives.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 02:27 PM
hold, what is the saddest about all this to me is that you have been here for YEARS and have never availed yourself of any Marriage Builders services. MB is completely different from any other program. I have seen Steve Harley and Dr Harley motivate spouses that HATED each other and turned it around.

Sex is not the problem. It is a lack of love.

It is so obvious that the basic problem in your marriage is that you and your wife have fallen out of love and therefore, have no motivation to correct the situation. THAT is what the Harleys are good at. Yet you don't avail yourself of one of the best programs in the US.

WHY?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 02:34 PM
ML, we coached for 2 years with someone who helped us implement the MB system. We filled out the questionaires. We worked to reduce LBs. We implemented POJA and tried to negotiate win-win agreements we could both be enthusiastic about. It never worked for us. Neither of us is willing to work toward meeting the other person's #1 EN. Without that commitment, everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The Harleys are not going to motivate me to be more successful at work. Without that, Mrs. Hold will never feel romantic love for me. And without that romantic love, she will never address her issues regarding sex.

This is, at heart, a problem of me not believing in me. No coach or therapist can convince me I can succeed. So none of them can convince me that it is even worth trying. I am convinced that I am doomed to failure, and that the best I can hope for is to just put one foot in front of the other and keep plodding forward until I die. I have no dreams, no ambitions, no goals and no hopes.

So yes, I can understand why my wife does not love me or want to have sex with me. I don't blame her. I wouldn't love me or want to have sex with me, either.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
ML, we coached for 2 years with someone who helped us implement the MB system. It never worked for us. Neither of us is willing to work toward meeting the other person's #1 EN. Without that commitment, everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

You have never coached with a certified Marriage Builders coach. I know who you coached with and she could never pass certification. That should tell you something right there. In order to be certified you have to successfully help a couple fall in love. If you can't do that, you are not certified.

Most couples that show up for the weekend have at least one reluctant spouse. My husband was not "committed" to Marriage Builders until he went to the weekend and was sold by the Harleys. That is often the case. The committment comes AFTERWARDS, not before.

Quote
So yes, I can understand why my wife does not love me or want to have sex with me. I don't blame her. I wouldn't love me or want to have sex with me, either.

But you can learn to be lovable and you can have a happy marriage. You are sitting on a goldmine and just won't go in.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
But you can learn to be lovable and you can have a happy marriage.

No ML, I can't. I am sure the Harleys can and do help couples who hate each other. That is not the problem in my marriage. The problem in my marriage is that I hate ME. Very different problem.

When I said I have no goals, that was a lie. I have one goal I am dedicated toward: making sure that I am never happy.

You know how Harley asks people "don't you want to be happily married? I have a system that enables you to feel romantic love for your spouse and to be happily married. Won't you at least try it?" My answer is "no, if you have the key to happiness, please stay as far away from me as you can get". It is not that I doubt their system can work. It is that I fear it might work. And that is the last thing I want.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
But you can learn to be lovable and you can have a happy marriage.

No ML, I can't. I am sure the Harleys can and do help couples who hate each other. That is not the problem in my marriage. The problem in my marriage is that I hate ME. Very different problem.

What do you hate about yourself?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:10 PM
I am lazy, negative, and gutless. Along with weak, foolish, and small. Combined with sappy, gullible and hopeless. Fearful. Totally convinced I am doomed to failure. And such a wimp that I am willing to go down without a fight. I won't even lift a finger to try to change my fate.

What's there not to hate?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am lazy, negative, and gutless. Along with weak, foolish, and small. Combined with sappy, gullible and hopeless. Fearful. Totally convinced I am doomed to failure. And such a wimp that I am willing to go down without a fight. I won't even lift a finger to try to change my fate.

Then I would knock it off. IF you hate yourself the solution is to stop behaving in ways you loathe. Just knock it off.

I have found that the basic problem with people who don't change is that they allow their emotions to control them. They are waiting for some magic emotion to come along and attack them against their will. That is not how it works, because FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS. Not the other way around.

That means that all a person needs to change is the ability to make a decision and a PLAN. You can do all of those things today whether you feel like it or not. Change your behavior and your feelings will change. '

You can make a decision today to change.

Are you on any kind of narcotics? An alcoholic?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:33 PM
Nope, no drugs or alcohol. I play too many video games, that is about it as far as vices. What I am addicted to is misery.

Yes, I am waiting for someone to wave a magic wand and save me. That is why I long for ECT. I am hoping if someone sends an electric spark through my brain, I will feel differently.

You say "all" a person needs is the ability to make a decision and plan. I am unable to do either. I have trouble deciding at restaurants and ice cream parlors. If you think I can make important decisions about my life, or plan for the future, you are mistaken. As my father in law says "when the going gets tough, Hold gets stupid". And he isn't wrong.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
You say "all" a person needs is the ability to make a decision and plan. I am unable to do either.

What do you mean by "unable?" ARe you mentally ill? Do you have a verified mental illness that prevents you from making decisions?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 04:02 PM
My 2nd to last IC (psychiatrist) said I had a personality disorder. So yes, I think I do.

Oh, I can make good decisions for clients. And for friends. And people here. Anything where my own welfare is not implicated. I just can't make them for myself.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 04:37 PM
Hold, have you ever considered getting a definitive diagnosis from one of these psychiatrists and then taking medication to correct whatever problem you have?

It sounds to me like you're clinically depressed. There are tons of treatments for this sort of thing. What would be the harm in actually trying one?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 05:39 PM
Taken all sorts of meds for depression. Nothing ever helped. Which makes sense if I have a personality disorder or addiction to misery.

Reading a book on misery addiction. Maybe it will have some suggestions.

As for personality disorder, there are no pills. The psychiatrist said I needed daily analysis sessions for several years to have any hope of recovery. After decades of failed IC, I don't have sufficient hope for success to be willing to invest that amount of time or money. I'd rather be miserable and only slightly insolvent than miserable and even more deeply mired in debt.

Of course, that is just my fear and negativity talking. If it worked, and I were more successful at my career, I could raise my income more than enough to pay for the therapy. It would be an investment in my future. But I don't want it badly enough. In fact, I don't want it at all. What I want is to remain unhappy.
Posted By: Helianthus Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 09:05 PM
If what you want is to remain unhappy, you are doing an amazingly good job at it!

I think you might be making some of the rest of us depressed as well just listening to you...
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 09:09 PM
Hold I do not think you are metally ill. I think your self depreciating sence of humour has got the better of you.

You are like a person that checks into hospital and has operations when there is nothing wrong with them. Just in case.

Melody is right. You should just knock it off. You've had all the operations you need.

You now seem to be like a fat person that does not believe there is a skinny person inside. You can not expect to go from a fat person to a skinny person in a day, but it can happen. You only need to look at your wife.

Posted By: W8ing4signs Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 09:19 PM
God loves you. You are his precious child, no matter what.

You may enjoy the book "The Brain that Changes Itself -- Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science" by Norman Doidge. Its an easy and fascinating read for anyone interested in learning, mental health, personality, brain damage, etc.

http://www.amazon.ca/Brain-That-Changes-Itself-Frontiers/dp/1423367995


Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Helianthus
I think you might be making some of the rest of us depressed as well just listening to you...

DJ alert: No, no, no. You should be glad and thankful and grateful you aren't as messed up inside your head as I am!

But that is very un-MB for me to tell you how to react. So you go ahead and be every bit as depressed as you want to be when you read my posts. Who knows, maybe you get as much payoff from your misery as I do.

Jack - anything is possible, but you have to be willing to do the work. I am too lazy. Getting married to Mrs. Hold was the last thing I did to address my situation. I engaged in magical thinking. I figured "she will have lots of sex with me, and I will feel better about myself, and my life will turn itself around - with no effort required on my part!" Of course, life does not work that way. I know that now. If I want improvement, I have to do the work. I don't want it enough to do the work. Sad but true.

W8ing - thanks for the suggestion. Maybe after I finish the Misery Addiction book.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 10:40 PM
Okay, if you don't care about your own happiness, maybe you could pull your head out of your asteroid enough to care about other peoples?

Don't you have kids? Do you really want them being raised by some miserable, sorry excuse for a human being who views himself on the same level as pond scum?

Really, what effect do you think that might have on them?

Do you love your children? Do you want them to be happy? Do you think they deserve to be raised by someone with this outlook on life?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 10:56 PM
Writer, yes, I am sure it hurts my kids to know what a low opinion I have of myself. S16 has mentioned that to his IC. That his Dad is a great guy who feels like a total failure.

Hopefully in time he will come to realize that his Dad is not such a great guy.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Writer, yes, I am sure it hurts my kids to know what a low opinion I have of myself. S16 has mentioned that to his IC. That his Dad is a great guy who feels like a total failure.

Hopefully in time he will come to realize that his Dad is not such a great guy.

This is just really sad.

As someone who was raised by a chronically negative, depressed, overweight, unambitious mother who constantly criticized everyone around her and did absolutely nothing with her life, I can honestly say I feel sorry for your kids.

I don't hate my mother. I don't think she's an awful person. I pity her. And if that's the relationship you're going for with your own kids, then so be it.

I'm sorry, I just can't read anymore of the self-pity threads. There seems to be so many of them these days. I am so done with all the useless negative energy around this place.

Good luck to you.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/06/11 11:09 PM
I don't criticize people around me. I constantly tell everyone in our house how great they are. When my wife says something self-deprecating, I tell her to stop talking about my wife that way. When she shows me her homework, I always compliment her and tell her she has a big brain, just like her kids.

I tell my kids every day they are the best kids, and that their mother and I are blessed to get to be their parents. I tell my daughter she is smart and brave and tough and strong and humorous and artistic and wonderful. I tell my son he is a great kid with a big heart and that he is inspiring because he uses his many talents for the benefit of others.

The only person in my house I regularly criticize is me.

Sorry to be such a downer. I get in these funks fairly often. In 2005, when we stopped doing MC, I convinced myself there was no hope for our marriage to be happy. And gave myself permission to stop trying at life. Now that it looks like Mrs. Hold might be willing to meet me halfway, I don't have the willpower to revoke that permission and hold myself to higher standards. Guess I need some accountability partners. I suspect there will be much talk of that in the second half of the misery addiction book.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 12:05 AM
Hold, I think you may have to try harder at failure, because unless I remember wrong, you just got a nice raise at work. Bosses don't give raises to dufuses (sp? maybe dufus-ai?)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 12:33 AM
Hey, don't underestimate me. When you are as talented as I am, it isn't easy to be this unsuccessful! I have to work hard to prevent this much potential from turning into accomplishment! stickout
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hey, don't underestimate me. When you are as talented as I am, it isn't easy to be this unsuccessful! I have to work hard to prevent this much potential from turning into accomplishment! stickout

Maybe you should consider a career in comedy. There's something definitively Rodney Dangerfield-like about you.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 03:14 AM
What would happen if you pushed yourself for a bit and started to be 'successful' (whatever successful is for you and your wife). And then your wife became enthusiastic about SF? No expectations...just research to see if it works.

The worse that could happen is it doesn't work. And then you can go back to being unhappy.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I don't criticize people around me. I constantly tell everyone in our house how great they are.

Hold This can not be true. Remember your bad joke that started this latest round? The joke was intended to be critical.

Previous qoute:

>>>I have told her for the past 15+ years that I am unhappy and for the past 6 have said I cannot see past the kids graduation. We had marriage counselling sessions where she said "he just said he is leaving when the kids leave".She knows exactly where she stands. If not, it is because she won't allow herself to know. Not because I haven't told her.

Just yesterday she said something like "I never realized that side of our life was such an epic fail for you". Really? Never realized? After 8 years of marriage counselling? After countless private conversations? You thought I was PRETENDING to be unhappy about our sex life? REALLY?!?!?<<<

THIS IS A LIFE TIME OF CRITICISM!!!

Do you really expect to get a different outcome from continuing to do the same thing?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
THIS IS A LIFE TIME OF CRITICISM!!!

Correct. I do criticize her. Point taken.

Quote
Do you really expect to get a different outcome from continuing to do the same thing?

No, I don't. That is the point. I don't expect to ever get a different outcome.

Kilted_thrower said try at work, have some success, see if wife provides more SF. BTDT. Made partner at my last firm. No change. In fact, that is part of why I started actively complaining. I was doing well at work. She was not working outside the home. I was paying for someone to help her with the kids. And we were not having sex. I understood her being tired with a baby at home. But we didn't even have sex when we went on vacation for a week. That was when I insisted we do MC. Result: no sex, weight gain, huge overspending, and lying about it.

I took the job here to make more money. No change in our sex life. She complained we didn't go on vacation enough. So we went on a cruise. No sex (well, we tried once but she made me stop partway through). We went to Europe. No sex.

So no, I don't expect a better outcome. Whether I continue the same things. Or whether I change.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/07/11 09:47 PM
I tend to agree Hold, I do not see any correlation there between how much money you earn and your wifes sex drive.

I am going fishing for a week so you can have a few days peace.
Posted By: JustStopIt Re: Hi From STIM - 01/09/11 04:49 PM
Hi Hold,
I'm new to MB and have been reading Dr. Harley's books and the boards. Noticed you are from Ct...what part? You mentioned having done counseling. Wonder if you have recommendations on that and on lawyers.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/10/11 02:45 PM
Enjoy your trip Jack.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/10/11 02:50 PM
JSI: The Harleys do coaching over the phone. It doesn't matter where you are. Just click the button at the top of the page to get help.

As for lawyers, so far we have not needed a divorce lawyer. I don't do that type of law, so I am not very familiar with who has the best reputation around here. Sorry I can't be of more help in that regard.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/14/11 03:00 PM
Talk to Mrs. Hold about the kids. Helped her with her homework (her teacher hides the ball and hasn't updated some of the questions lately so web links and cites are outdated). Other than that we basically don't speak and don't spend any time together. When she talks to me she is snarky. The kids are starting to notice that she ignores pretty much everything I say.

I know we need UA time. I am trying to summon the courage to get back in the relationship. I am so conflicted. Time together leads to me wanting sex. I don't want to want sex. The sex we have is not bonding for me anymore. I feel worse after than before. I don't know how to raise that with Mrs. Hold without making it even worse. And I don't want to feel like a fool who meets her needs without asking for anything back in return.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/14/11 03:25 PM
Hey, Hold, when was the last time you took your wife out on a date, or for a weekend getaway, just the two of you? I know when things have been strained between me and my H, getting out of the house and doing something fun together without the kids helps tremendously. Do something you both enjoy. Just relax and have fun, no pressure. Don't talk about the relationship. Come on, I dare you to ask your wife out on a date.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Hi From STIM - 01/17/11 03:30 PM
Quote
The sex we have is not bonding for me anymore. I feel worse after than before.


I understand the feeling Hold and for the first time in my marriage I suddenly am feeling much the same way.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 01/17/11 06:09 PM
Both of you married very selfish, manipulative, material money grubbing women who don't want to work very hard in the marriage or at anything else. These women have you wrapped in guilt, shame, and low self esteem and cowering in fear at thier feet as they walk all over you and continually push over your weak personal boundaries.

Time to man up,, be courageous, and start leading your marriages into being better. Both spouses must POJA things, and fill each other's needs. Both must strive for romantic love though one spouse can begin this process.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/18/11 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Bubbles4U
money grubbing women who don't want to work very hard in the marriage or at anything else.

Bubbles, Hold's wife has a job, is studying and has lost 50lb. That gets a big tick from me.

She is also supportive, attractive, outgoing and can not be bought.

Did I mention she lost 50lb?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 12:50 AM
Jack, my wife is a great lady. She has very much gotten her act together. My birthday wish for her was for her to have as good a year next year as she had this past year.

But you are wrong about one thing. She can be bought. She wants to be bought. I simply cannot afford her.
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 01:13 AM
Gawd I hate the term "man up" it's so insulting and degrading.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 08:54 AM
Hold has lost the respect of his wife. Trying to please her by making more money is not the answer for either of them and will not begin to solve thier marriage problems.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 09:44 AM
I totally agree bubbles. Money is not the anwser.

Hold, the impression I have of your wife, I (rightly or wrongly) read from your posts

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
BTDT. Made partner at my last firm. No change. In fact, that is part of why I started actively complaining.

I took the job here to make more money. No change in our sex life. She complained we didn't go on vacation enough. So we went on a cruise. No sex (well, we tried once but she made me stop partway through). We went to Europe. No sex.

It does not seem from your post that a fancy life style makes any difference to your relationship. You have not shown any evidence that money is her sole motivation.
If your wife had run off with an old koot that had $100M then I would agree with you.
It seems from your posts that it has always been your problem rather than your wifes. There has been some reckless spend but plenty of people can do that.
I continue to bang on about this because it is a thought patern that society bangs into us that simply is not true. I have seen the contrary just too many times.
Money is an advantage, sure. But money will never win by itself. It is always a disaster for the man who tries to do it with money.

We all have fairytale dreams when we are young. I think your wife sees the world differently now. I wonder if you can?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 01:14 PM
I agree with you. It is possible she does. But I can't.

I was miserable before I met her. I remain miserable. That is the constant.

Her refusal to have sex with me during our honeymoon did not help matters. It created a dynamic we cannot break out of. But it did not cause my lack of confidence. That already existed. Her behavior merely confirmed, for me, that there is no hope for me. If even the woman I agreed to marry and support and bear and raise children with does not find me attractive, then no woman will. Nothing in my life since then has shaken that core belief. I don't expect anything ever will.

And it goes without saying that if women will never find me sexually attractive, then there is no point in making an effort to succeed at work. You see, despite my verbiage here, I actually live by the perspective you espouse. I don't believe woman will want me even if I had more money, or that anything good would come of it if they did. So I don't bother to make more money. Since women finding me sexually attractive is, after all, the only reason to do anything in life.

I am guessing that last part is where our views diverge.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 01/19/11 04:23 PM
Hold, perhaps it's your total lack of self confidence and your self-deprecating demeanor that your wife does not find attractive. I don't know many women who would be attracted to a man who has such a low opinion of himself. Something for you to consider at least.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 12:34 AM
Writer, that is undoubtedly a big part of the problem. I understand that women are attracted to confident, positive and optimistic men. I have never been that. Never will be that. Hence my despair that any woman will find me attractive. Hence my extreme reluctance to leave Mrs. Hold, and my expectation that she will eventually choose to leave me.

MelodyLane posted on another thread:

Quote
What is your "mental illness" that prevents you from working on your marriage? You seem pretty coherent to me. And what are you doing to resolve it?

I am not doing anything to resolve it. That is why I view any attempt to improve my marriage pointless. I have to work on me first. And I don't want to work on me.

Quote
I see you as person who has a lot of complaints about his marriage but who has not tried the program here.

I don't have many complaints about my marriage these days. My complaints are with myself. MB cannot help me with that. Or put differently, for MB to work, I would have to be willing to change my own behavior. I am not willing to do that. Hence no point in implementing MB. I am only willing to talk, not to negotiate changed behavior.

And as for your comment that it is never too late, I disagree. Perhaps a person can always choose to improve themselves. But there is no guarantee that their spouse will stick around to wait for that. Or will remain open to reciprocating. Years ago I was open to changing if Mrs. Hold also changed (Renter mentality). Now I am not (Freeloader mentality). So it is now too late for Mrs. Hold to choose to work on our marriage. Because I am not open to becoming a Buyer. Much more work than I am willing to invest.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 12:50 AM
Oh, and just so we can put a stake in the "Hold is a good husband" idea, I forgot that today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. Yes, I got her cards and signed them. Yes, I bought her a present. But I am away from home on a business trip today (bad enough, but she supports my career 100% - more than I do in many ways - so she said the trip was OK with her). When I called home, I forgot to say Happy Birthday. Twice. Finally around 5:00 I remembered. Turns out the kids had forgotten as well. So very bad day for Mrs. Hold on the love front. My very bad.

Nothing could communicate more clearly how I feel about her (and don't). Early in our marriage I made a very big deal about her birthday, Valentine's Day, our anniversary, etc. Now, today, I completely ignored it. Nuff said.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Oh, and just so we can put a stake in the "Hold is a good husband" idea, I forgot that today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. Yes, I got her cards and signed them. Yes, I bought her a present. But I am away from home on a business trip today (bad enough, but she supports my career 100% - more than I do in many ways - so she said the trip was OK with her). When I called home, I forgot to say Happy Birthday. Twice. Finally around 5:00 I remembered. Turns out the kids had forgotten as well. So very bad day for Mrs. Hold on the love front. My very bad.

Nothing could communicate more clearly how I feel about her (and don't). Early in our marriage I made a very big deal about her birthday, Valentine's Day, our anniversary, etc. Now, today, I completely ignored it. Nuff said.

Does SHE care that you didn't say hb to her until 5:00? I wouldn't say you 'forgot'...if you bought cards and a gift ahead of time, that is a far cry from forgetting. But how does she feel about it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 05:09 AM
Yes, she cared. She was very sad. She was snippy and basically hung up on me during call #2. I was having lunch with another lawyer from my firm and then we had a client meeting, so I didn't call her back. After the meeting, I realized why she was snippy. I called her. She admitted how much it hurt that D13 and I forgot to wish her happy birthday. I had D13 get the cards I left in her room, and we sang happy birthday. But Mrs. Hold was still sad. Quite understandably, in my view.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 06:47 AM
Sure she is sad, unfortunately she has made you extremely sad too. For the entire years of your marriage. She has abused you.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 01:09 PM
Bubbles, the thing is until Hold has more self-esteem, nothing will change. It seems as though he doesn't view himself as attractive or having to offer the female population much except maybe a paycheck. And so he assumes that if he leaves his wife, he won't find anyone else anyway (and be alone) and that it will negatively impact the kids.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/20/11 03:20 PM
KT is correct. That is exactly how I see it. No woman has ever expressed interest in me except for my paycheck. I used to think they were making a mistake to reject me. I figured they were unable to look past the unattractive physical exterior, and that once a woman got to know me well, she would realize I was a great guy on the inside and be very attracted to me. Then I got married, and the better she got to know me, the less attractive Mrs. Hold found me. So now I figure the other women were correct to reject me. That I am not attractive on the inside, either. So I better stay with Mrs. Hold unless I want to be alone.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/22/11 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
staring into each others eyes and being in your own world with your spouse, or discussing each others hopes and fears as they pertain to each other.

This passage by ConstantProcess shows why MB never worked for me and Mrs. Hold. I see now why UA is such an important aspect of MB. The time together allows a couple to calibrate WHAT hopes and fears they have and HOW they are going to help each other overcome their fears and achieve their hoped-for dreams.

UA does not work that way for Mrs. Hold and I. We have each made it clear that we are not interested in helping the other person achieve their dreams. For both of us, the other person's dream is not something we are willing to work toward. You might have thought that we would have figured that out before we got married. Or that knowing that now, we wouldn't want to remain married.

But we are both very good at pretending that reality doesn't exist.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/26/11 06:55 PM
Mrs. Hold got a part time job today in the field she is studying. Hurray for her! She can work from home, and do as much or as little as he can handle. This will give her an experience line on her resume, for when she is ready for a full time job (after she gets her certificate and the kids graduate). She really is getting her act together. Soon I may be tested as to whether I really want what I have been wishing for.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 01/26/11 07:40 PM
How does her getting a job get you sex?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/26/11 08:39 PM
It doesn't get me sex, silly. I don't wish for sex any more. I feel worse after we have sex.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/27/11 02:36 PM
Mrs. Hold announced today that she does not feel emotionally safe with me, so sex is off the table. I understand why. But think about it. That means she feels even less inclined toward sex than she has the last 18 years. And it means we have an even higher mountain to climb to get back together. So for those of you think going into withdrawal can't make it worse, you are wrong. Your spouse can become even more averse to sex.
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Hi From STIM - 01/27/11 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold announced today that she does not feel emotionally safe with me, so sex is off the table. I understand why. But think about it. That means she feels even less inclined toward sex than she has the last 18 years. And it means we have an even higher mountain to climb to get back together. So for those of you think going into withdrawal can't make it worse, you are wrong. Your spouse can become even more averse to sex.

Hold - this is pure manipulation. Lack of feeling safe implies that you have threatened her. Which you haven't.

Ask her specifically what you've done to make her feel unsafe. Get some openness and honesty going. You're not her daddy and emotional needs don't go one way. Since she's stepping up in other areas of her life (finally) you know your day of reckoning is coming. But this manipulation isn't entirely honest.

I think the two of you need a time out from "relationship" and just need to take a weekend at a park, walking, talking about life instead of the relationship.

She's not ready to be emotionally honest and therefore isn't safe to you. when she's ready to own the source of her pain (herself) and talk with you about that, then you two will get somewhere. As you can read by your posts, you recognize that you are the source of your pain already. So you're ready for this conversation when she is.

For now, I'd acknowledge that you hear her, but don't understand since you haven't threatened her, beat her, yelled at her or otherwise abused her.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 01/27/11 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
Hold - this is pure manipulation. Lack of feeling safe implies that you have threatened her. Which you haven't.

For now, I'd acknowledge that you hear her, but don't understand since you haven't threatened her, beat her, yelled at her or otherwise abused her.

Yes.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/27/11 11:32 PM
You mean forgetting to wish her a happy birthday on her birthday is not abusive?
Posted By: KaylaAndy Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 06:30 AM
Oh My GOSH! Hold. You didn't? (lol).

Of course not. You didn't forget - you had the presents upstairs which required caring and forethought.

Give yourself some credit. You can only be sarcastic like that when you know full well you're being played by a manipulator using code language to elicit guilt on someone who hates feeling guilty.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 08:50 AM
You bought her presents and cards, then you didn't forget.

OK she was a little sad, but she's a grown up and surely should have just been able to say on the very first phone call "Erm, are you forgetting something? Where's my Happy Birthday?"

Maybe I'm an odd female (well I know I am) but I can't see that this is a big deal at all. It just sounds so passive aggressive to stay quiet on the phone and not just tell you she wanted to hear those words.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 12:28 PM
D13's birthday approaches. Mrs. Hold wants to make it special. Apparently going to NYC, where my Mom has flown up to visit, and going to a theme restaurant + entertainment for dinner with my sis, BIL and nephew is not special enough (to her credit, we did POJA the restaurant and me paying for everyone). Later that day (after we POJA), Mrs. Hold went into D13's room to see hwo she is doing. D13 seems not impressed by the birthday plans. Mrs. Hold suggests D13 invite a friend. D13 complains she has no friends. Mrs. Hold suggests inviting the entire swimming team (6 girls). That means several more expensive dinners and 2 hotel rooms so they can stay over in NYC. That idea perks up D13. Then Mrs. Hold invites me into the room to see what I think. I feel ambushed. Yet again. By an expensive request for the kids.

This morning I commented that emotional safety works both ways. That I have told her many times how much I hate her guts (yes, I used those words) when she discusses something with the kids that is expensive without checking with me first. She said "my child was upset and I panicked and that was the only thing that I could think of that would help her feel better". I replied "so it is OK to solve the problem by putting me in a no win situation where all my choices are bad, despite knowing how much I hate when you do that". She said something like "well, we had discussed bits and pieces of it earlier." I said "yes, but dinner for 14 is not dinner for 8, and 2 hotel rooms is not 1 hotel room. This is the same feeling as when I ask you for sex. You feel trapped. You feel like I don't care about your feelings and I just want to get my rocks off and it could be anyone." She started crying, said "is that how you think I feel", and ran out of the room. Then it was time for her to go to work. She left. I feel guilty. But I don't think I should feel guilty. Thoughts?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 01:39 PM
Hold, man, I can so relate! D14 goes to school with kids who have the best phones, DJs at their parties, and go to $75 concerts. Their hangout has the most expensive movie theater in town, $7.50 for kids, $9.50 for 3D. Do I want to try to keep up with that? But she doesn't want to stand out. I want to throw her a party for her birthday, because she's been down, but she doesn't want one here, because we don't have a pool. Huh? It'll be February, what do you need a pool for? But I guess she's embarrassed she's the only one who doesn't?

Do you see that it's the expectations that are the issue, not your, D13's, and Mrs. H's confusion with them? About the "feeling guilty," how about just deciding not to "go there"? You guys can work this out together. You're not trapped. Nothing is set in stone. They were brainstorming solutions, and calling you in. There are no bad guys here.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 02:07 PM
I think that you just have to deal with being seen as the bad guy right now. You can tell your wife and daughter together how much you feel you can afford to spend on her birthday celebrations and all of you brainstorm together.

You can do this without love busting, and be a caring but responsible adult. Its not within your control how they react to it, only how you behave.

ETA: Just seen NED's reply. She said it better than I did. I agree with her.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
D13's birthday approaches. Mrs. Hold wants to make it special. Apparently going to NYC, where my Mom has flown up to visit, and going to a theme restaurant + entertainment for dinner with my sis, BIL and nephew is not special enough (to her credit, we did POJA the restaurant and me paying for everyone). Later that day (after we POJA), Mrs. Hold went into D13's room to see hwo she is doing. D13 seems not impressed by the birthday plans. Mrs. Hold suggests D13 invite a friend. D13 complains she has no friends. Mrs. Hold suggests inviting the entire swimming team (6 girls). That means several more expensive dinners and 2 hotel rooms so they can stay over in NYC. That idea perks up D13. Then Mrs. Hold invites me into the room to see what I think. I feel ambushed. Yet again. By an expensive request for the kids.

Somehow I have a problem with adults taking direction from their children on defining things like this. Are we really in the business of catering to children when it comes to shaping their worldviews on what is important? Are we not indirectly teaching a lesson here to find your value outside of yourself rather than defining our worldview from our internal values and living those values from the inside out? It's all about bling bling and not about what truly matters it seems. Just spouting off here, but I increasingly find the concept of "making kids happy" by doing whatever they want to be a long term guarantee for struggles with depression for both the parents and the children as a result of basing self esteem on things and values external to ourselves.

Quote
This morning I commented that emotional safety works both ways. That I have told her many times how much I hate her guts (yes, I used those words) when she discusses something with the kids that is expensive without checking with me first. She said "my child was upset and I panicked and that was the only thing that I could think of that would help her feel better". I replied "so it is OK to solve the problem by putting me in a no win situation where all my choices are bad, despite knowing how much I hate when you do that". She said something like "well, we had discussed bits and pieces of it earlier." I said "yes, but dinner for 14 is not dinner for 8, and 2 hotel rooms is not 1 hotel room. This is the same feeling as when I ask you for sex. You feel trapped. You feel like I don't care about your feelings and I just want to get my rocks off and it could be anyone." She started crying, said "is that how you think I feel", and ran out of the room. Then it was time for her to go to work. She left. I feel guilty. But I don't think I should feel guilty. Thoughts?


First off, I'd say don't lose the opportunity to follow up on exactly what Mrs HOLD meant when she started crying and said "Is that how you think I feel?" Obviously you have misinterpreted something here, so it will be valuable to find out what went wrong with your analogy at some point.

Secondly, what you've outlined above is a hot button issue between Mrs Hitch and I as well. Mrs Hitch is an HSP (at least I believe she is), or a Highly Sensitive Person (studies show as much as 20% of the population are HSPs). Empathic abilities and a general tendency to want to make other's happy at any expense comes with HSP territory IME and from what I've read. Specific to Mrs Hitch, she generally functions under the auspices of "it's better to apologize than to ask permission." So, I feel your pain. I'm oftentimes roped into situations like what you've outlined, where I feel trapped and I feel as if I'm the bad guy because I have to deliver disapointing news. This is IMHO mostly because I feel that Mrs Hitch has already indicated, with her words and/or her mannerisms, that she's OK with whatever our children want at that particular moment. So, I get to be the heavy and the cheapskate that says no because we cannot afford it. I've repeatedly asked for us two as adults to discuss such things prior to discussing them with the children, but my repeated requests have, for the most part, fallen on deaf ears with Mrs Hitch.

Should you feel guilty? Well, I'm not a big fan of guilt in general. Specific to your scenario, I think you need clarity on why what you said was offensive especially since it appears that you have misjudged in some way how she does in fact feel. You could apologize that there was a misunderstanding and express a desire to better understand her point of view. I generally find that taking a disarming approach via a heartfelt apology encourages our spouse to feel safe and to be open and honest about the misunderstanding.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 04:23 PM
Yes Hitch, I do want to follow up on how she feels about sex. The opportunity to obtain additional insight on that topic arrives rarely, and I do not wish to pass up this one. I would have followed up this morning if she had not immediately gotten into her car to go to work.

As for the party, Mrs. Hold called to apologize. She said she doesn't want me to hate her guts, and she realizes what she did put me in an uncomfortable position. I thanked her for the apology. I said "instead of fancy restaurant and a hotel in NYC, how about the 4 of us go to NYC to see my Mom on Saturday, and then on Sunday D13 could have her swim team over for a low key birthday party at our house?" Mrs. Hold said she thought that was a fine idea, and we will bring it to D13 later today.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Yes Hitch, I do want to follow up on how she feels about sex. The opportunity to obtain additional insight on that topic arrives rarely, and I do not wish to pass up this one. I would have followed up this morning if she had not immediately gotten into her car to go to work.

Hmmm. I'm not certain she wants to talk about how she feels about sex based upon her response. I think she could have very easily wanted to discuss any of a range of different aspects that came up in your conversation. You made several different assumptions (a nice way of saying DJ's) as follows, "This is the same feeling as when I ask you for sex. You feel trapped. You feel like I don't care about your feelings and I just want to get my rocks off and it could be anyone."

Notice her response did not explicitly address how she feels about sex, she merely stated "is that how you think I feel." You inserted sex into the example, whereas what she reacted to and got emotional about, may in fact have nothing to do with sex in her own mind. You do yourself a discredit by assuming the next step is to ask her how she feels about sex. I understand why you want to, because this is the huge pain point for you, but I wouldn't approach the next conversation with sex as a precursor, I'd simply ask her if she could help you to understand what she meant when she said "is that how you think I feel?" If she chooses to bring up a sexual context, all the better, but I wouldn't bring it up yourself.

Quote
As for the party, Mrs. Hold called to apologize. She said she doesn't want me to hate her guts, and she realizes what she did put me in an uncomfortable position. I thanked her for the apology. I said "instead of fancy restaurant and a hotel in NYC, how about the 4 of us go to NYC to see my Mom on Saturday, and then on Sunday D13 could have her swim team over for a low key birthday party at our house?" Mrs. Hold said she thought that was a fine idea, and we will bring it to D13 later today.


Excellent recovery from the initial misunderstanding. It is refreshing to see this happening between you two, as I've gotten the sense that this level of more healthy negotiation has only recently started to occur! smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/28/11 05:22 PM
Oh yes, Hitch, I know I DJ her frequently. If we counselled with the Harleys, I would have to give up the DJs. At this point, I would rather DJ. Like I have said before, resentment is my mistress and I am not giving her up. I am as foggy as any WS. Happily married? Surely you jest.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/29/11 04:54 AM
So of course, I come home to discover that Mrs. Hold has a migraine and is in no mood to talk.

I ask how the birthday situation is coming along. Seems Mrs. Hold and D13 have a new plan. Brunch and a shopping tour on Sunday morning in NYC. I ask what happened to family dinner in NYC Saturday and party with the girls in CT on Sunday. "Oh, the girls were too excited for me to take it away from them. They were telling me it is the greatest thing they have ever been invited to." I guess if you have to choose between disappointing a bunch of 13 year old girls, and disappointing your husband of 18+ years, it is a no brainer.

So were are back to 2 hotel rooms. I ask about dinner Saturday. "The place I picked is way too expensive. I found a cheaper place, but D13 is not enthusiastic. Maybe you can find something inexpensive she will like." We are 12 for dinner in Manhattan. Nothing is inexpensive in Manhattan. Back to being the bad guy.

I know. I should not be surprised. I have trained her that I will back down. If I don't change the dance, I can't complain that she tells the band to keep playing.
Posted By: Vibrissa Re: Hi From STIM - 01/29/11 05:11 AM
Why is it that your wife is discussing and hashing out the details with your daughter? Decisions should be made by PARENTS. Yes, you can seek your children's input, but that is just what it is: input. Decisions are made by you and Mrs. Hold, not by Mrs. Hold and DD, and then come to you for the pocket book.

This is just poor boundaries all around.

Why are you going along with this?

Why not say "I'm sorry DD, your mother and I need to determine what it is we will be doing. Thank you for your input and suggestions, we'll let you know what it is we decide to do for your birthday."

And that is that.

She can handle disappointment. In fact, the lesson she would learn is more valuable than a 'fun' and extravagant birthday party. Parents are in charge, negotiation between partners is essential, you treat your spouse with love and respect.

Valuable lessons she will need in her own future relationships.

Look at your marriage.

Look at your daughter.

Do you want your daughter to experience the same misery you and your wife live in day in and day out? Because if so, you are giving her all the tools she needs to do just that.

She will model her future relationships on the examples you and your wife set.

Right now she is learning that men=pocketbook. You don't have to worry about their feelings or thoughts. You do what you want, and then let your husband know what the situation is. No negotiating, dictating.

Is that a lesson you want her to learn?

Your poor choices are going to affect her, for the rest of her life.

You DON'T have to go along with this.

"Sorry, DD, we've looked at it and we just can't afford it. We can do something else and have just as much fun, maybe we can do the girl's trip some other time."

"Mrs. Hold I am very hurt that you chose to plan this with your daughter instead of your husband. I am not a pocket book. We are going to have to re-POJA this issue, since you threw the last POJA out the window and I am not in agreement with the current plan. It hurts me when you value a simple party over our marriage. It makes me feel unsafe and unloved."

Another valuable lesson for DD to learn: living within your means. Sometimes you can't have all the fun things, sometimes you can't do all the exciting things. Joy can be found without extravagance and expense.

You CAN put your foot down.

I would suggest that your daughter NEEDS you to put your foot down. She needs boundaries. She needs to respect you - you are the model for her future husband, she needs to see that you have value.
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 01/29/11 07:54 AM
I agree completely with Vibs. You are setting up a bad situation for your daughters future husband. Just say "no". You set the schedule for the birthday. If your daughter gets upset, she will get over it.

I don't get it. You wear getting kicked around like a badge of honor. Be the bad guy for once. You're not getting respect out of this because you're not demanding respect. Geez...stop enjoying being miserable and put your foot down on this birthday thing.

Kids get disapointed all the time because they don't always get their way. It's called life.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 01/29/11 01:03 PM
Hold, I used to make plans with my sister for the extended family, and then once we figured stuff out, she told our parents, and it was the same as you're describing, they were like, "That's not going to work," and then they decided something else. But my sister and I kept calling each other when it was time to plan, because somehow our parents would never make any decisions when we spoke to them, until we had a plan they could say Yes or No to. My mom kept saying, "Don't call [sister]!" It took until I got here with POJA to start trying different patterns. Now I decide with B what we're going to do, and then call them so they can say yea or nay doh2 Okay so I'm not there yet.

So I'm not surprised when DD does the same thing, makes plans without me, and leaves me to figure out which parts I am and am not enthusiastic with. If I'm just not there, like I'm at work, how can I participate in the planning when they're ready? I think the solution is to see these things as works-in-progress.

Like Hitch's W, your W is the one on the phone hearing the disappointment from the others, when she's not equipped to deal with that. Neither are you, it sounds like, but it doesn't affect you the same way, because you allow yourself to choose not the one listening to it on the phone. Where your W isn't allowing herself off the hook of being the mouthpiece.

I think it would help to reread Al Turtle's Passive Master stuff. No one wants to "be the bad guy."

So how about brainstorming some plans where everyone gets off the hook from being the bad guy? Maybe emailing a new invitation for what you all can do, saying sorry the other plans didn't work out. And that you feel bad already, so thanks for not giving me a hard time, too.
Posted By: committedandlovi Re: Hi From STIM - 01/30/11 05:20 PM
Quote
I ask what happened to family dinner in NYC Saturday and party with the girls in CT on Sunday. "Oh, the girls were too excited for me to take it away from them. They were telling me it is the greatest thing they have ever been invited to."


Nope...has nothing to do with "the girls". Your wife's main interest has ALWAYS been status. If this big doo-dah happens SHE is the one that is gonna come out of it one step higher (socially) than the other Moms. She is working off her own agenda.

Oh yeah...she is puffing herself up...feeding her own need for adulation...again at the expense of the family finances.

AND....why do kids have to have such extravagant parties?
What ever happend to slumber parties, pizza, chips, sodas, and all night movies fests?

If this is what is planned for her 13th, I guess you best get prepared for a Sweet 16 party of obscene and vulgar monetary displays.

committed
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 01/31/11 03:17 PM
I am not willing to step in front of the party train. D13 and her friends are too excited. However, D13 has also expressed a desire for an expensive birthday present. I am going to tell her that since we spent so much money on the party, we cannot afford to get her the present.

And I am striving mightily to resist the temptation to say "I explained to your mother that we only had enough money for the party or the present, but not both. When I heard you guys talking about the party, I assumed your mother has explained that to you, and that you had chosen the party. So sorry for this misunderstanding. Next time I will make sure we are all on the same page. But that doesn't change the fact that we can't afford to get the present you wanted."
Posted By: nams Re: Hi From STIM - 01/31/11 08:53 PM
Why can't you say that to your daughter, Hold? It sounds like information she should have. Perhaps you, your W, and your daughter can all sit down and have this talk.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/01/11 01:38 AM
Hi there, Hold--
I'd ask how you've been, but, ha ha, I've been lurking on this thread forever.

In regard to your current situation, all I know is that when I was thirteen, disappointment was the norm. My parents had a way of making it awesome anyway, though on their own budget.

I wouldn't be too worried about disappointing your daughter. Somehow I think it's Mrs. Hold that is counting on the lavish trip.

Maybe, beyond all of this madness, you can separately get your daughter a nice little token from Dad.

What girl wouldn't cherish that?





Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 02/01/11 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by Vibrissa
Why is it that your wife is discussing and hashing out the details with your daughter? Decisions should be made by PARENTS. Yes, you can seek your children's input, but that is just what it is: input. Decisions are made by you and Mrs. Hold, not by Mrs. Hold and DD, and then come to you for the pocket book.

This is just poor boundaries all around.

Why are you going along with this?

Why not say "I'm sorry DD, your mother and I need to determine what it is we will be doing. Thank you for your input and suggestions, we'll let you know what it is we decide to do for your birthday."

And that is that.

Vibrissa,

EXCELLENT POST!!!! You did a better job of saying what I was trying to say in my initial response, which is that HOLD's approach is almost the polar opposite of what he should be doing to enforce healthy boundaries, and to actually promote a positive long term healthy outlook on life for his children.

Quote
She can handle disappointment. In fact, the lesson she would learn is more valuable than a 'fun' and extravagant birthday party. Parents are in charge, negotiation between partners is essential, you treat your spouse with love and respect.

Valuable lessons she will need in her own future relationships.

This is what I meant when I wrote about actually reinforcing values from the inside out rather than the outside in. Short term pain, via confrontation/disappointment with his daughter, will in fact reinforce positive boundaries and life lessons that will translate into more happy and more emotionally healthy children over the long term. The current approach is putting the perverbial cart before the horse - the children have become the parents in this scenario. While it may be easier to adopt this model because it seems to make the kids happy, it's only a short term happiness at best, until the next "high" is required for the children to feel good not about who they are, but about what they get. Again, a key difference between living our core values from the inside out, versus trying to find our core values by the pursuit of "things" external to us.

Quote
Look at your marriage.

Look at your daughter.

Do you want your daughter to experience the same misery you and your wife live in day in and day out? Because if so, you are giving her all the tools she needs to do just that.

She will model her future relationships on the examples you and your wife set.

Right now she is learning that men=pocketbook. You don't have to worry about their feelings or thoughts. You do what you want, and then let your husband know what the situation is. No negotiating, dictating.

Is that a lesson you want her to learn?

Your poor choices are going to affect her, for the rest of her life.

You DON'T have to go along with this.

"Sorry, DD, we've looked at it and we just can't afford it. We can do something else and have just as much fun, maybe we can do the girl's trip some other time."

The concepts you hit on here challenge what is at the heart of HOLD's current justification for maintaining his misery and for staying in his M. HOLD has maintained that he doesn't want to run any risk of not being with his kids (divorce), yet he continues to passive-aggressively punish Mrs HOLD for denying him what he wants (hence the DJ's being his mistress that he refuses to give up). I would be curious to get HOLD's input in regard to whether or not the reality is that he may in fact be doing more emotional harm to his own cherished children by staying married than if he were to cut his losses and get divorced. There are studies that show results either way (some studies have shown it's better for the children if the parents stay in a failed marriage, other studies show the opposite).

HOLD would probably agree with me that his justifications are self centered (it's about what HOLD wants - even at the possible expense of the long term emotional health of his own children), and extremely prideful (turtle pride - woe is me type approach to life). How do I know? Because I have struggled with the same inner battles of worthlessness, depression, and persistent pessimism that HOLD has. We both have depressive personalities. We both recognize the reasons why - at least intellectually, we are both otherwise intelligent and well educated individuals, and we are both fairly well accomplished in the eyes of most people career-wise (despite how we view ourselves).

So, with all that in mind, why don't guys like HOLD and I make better choices? Why do we keep making poor choices? If you can answer that question, then you are smarter than I am. smile

Quote
"Mrs. Hold I am very hurt that you chose to plan this with your daughter instead of your husband. I am not a pocket book. We are going to have to re-POJA this issue, since you threw the last POJA out the window and I am not in agreement with the current plan. It hurts me when you value a simple party over our marriage. It makes me feel unsafe and unloved."

I'd surmise that there are a few reasons why. Probably the biggest reason is a lifetime of doing the above, and either not getting any response, or getting lip service that gives the appearance of understanding and agreement, only to see the same repetitive behaviors from our spouses again and again after the fact. In other words, no real change, no desire to change. Probably why we don't desire to change either. As HOLD has oftentimes said, if neither spouse is willing to really change, and neither spouse is willing to leave, then the status quo is the best that can be hoped for. Far from ideal yes.

Quote
Another valuable lesson for DD to learn: living within your means. Sometimes you can't have all the fun things, sometimes you can't do all the exciting things. Joy can be found without extravagance and expense.

You CAN put your foot down.

I would suggest that your daughter NEEDS you to put your foot down. She needs boundaries. She needs to respect you - you are the model for her future husband, she needs to see that you have value.


Agreed, however if Mrs HOLD is either unable or unwilling to reinforce those agreed upon values, and in fact may passive-aggressively work against HOLD attempting to teach these types of life lessons to his children, it's a tough battle to say the least, and for a depressive like HOLD, it's a HUGE undertaking to fight that fight.

I know in my own lifelong marital struggles with my W's overspending on our children, on many occasions I've reached the point where I've simply given up fighting. As a depressive and a conflict avoider who struggles with anxiety, it is easier in the short term to simply withdraw. Over the long term I know it's not the right choice, and in fact the poor choices simply reinforce anxiety, depression, etc.

All of that said, I don't want to paint too ugly a picutre, so let me say, like in HOLD's case, Mrs Hitch and I have made some progress. Practically and logically I do see some progress - and therefore there is hope.

Probably the biggest struggle for me (and I'd guess potentially for HOLD), is that the financial issues are so raw because of the lifetime of dealing with them, that even in the face of logic, pragmatism, knowing some progress has been made, when setbacks occur (like with HOLD's current situation), it is extremely difficult to accept them and manage them constructively.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/01/11 01:52 PM
Hitch understands me perfectly. I have given up on overtly fighting with Mrs. Hold. It is too hard for me, and there is never any payoff. I just get my passive-aggressive digs in. If I am only going to get crumbs either way, I might as well create my own crumbs (no matter how bitter) rather than scurrying after Mrs. Hold and begging for her tasteless ones.

Yesterday she told me on the phone she made a big mistake this week with the party. I agreed with her. Then I came home, and she was very busy with paralegal work. She stayed up late and still was not finished. I understood that with her school work and other job she was trying to finish that project yesterday. But frankly, her prioritizing work over reconnecting with me completely undercut the apology.

It is snowing here yet again. Thank God I was able to make it out our steep driveway. I hope everyone stays warm and dry today.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 02:53 PM
Mrs. Hold found a much less expensive restaurant for dinner Saturday. She paid for the hotel and most of the shopping by D14. So in the end I could live with the total cost. D14 and her friends had an awesome time.

Still, the entire episode left a bad taste in my mouth. I had to explode to get Mrs. Hold to meet me halfway on cost. I still hate her guts for putting me in that position.

I think Mrs. Hold feels very good about the weekend and thinks we put it together as a team. To me, I still feel angry and hurt and view the event as a lovebuster.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 03:36 PM
But you paid up? You allowed it to happen. You can't blame her for that.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 04:25 PM
And, have you told her how you feel about this?

Wait a minute, what was I thinking? Never mind. I already know the answer.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Rosycheeks
But you paid up? You allowed it to happen. You can't blame her for that.

Correct. I don't blame her for the weekend happening. I "only" blame her for discussing it with D14 before she discussed it with me. If we had reached the eventual outcome as a result of POJA (before discussing it with D14), I would be very enthusiastic about the experience. Once she went "over my head" to D14, no good outcome was possible. I would not have been happier announcing "sorry, no trip to NYC, try again".

This is mostly my fault. I have trouble "letting go" of past hurts (hence my name). "Alls well that ends well" is not part of my psychology.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 06:56 PM
I totally understand you being annoyed at her for talking to your daughter first. Just after that you chose to allow it to continue, and decided the best course of action was to go along with it, and so that was your choice.

I sometimes find it hard not to blame dh for decisions I've made because I've been unwilling to stand up for myself, but its not fair to do that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 08:43 PM
Rosy: I know. I don't have the guts to negotiate with my Taker, so I get angry when Mrs. Hold brings her Taker to the table. That is not wrong on her part. I know per MB she is supposed to bring her Taker to the table. As long as I refuse to have boundaries and refuse to allow my Taker to speak up during discussions, I will remain in this purgatory. No one is locking me in here. I choose to stay.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
No one is locking me in here. I choose to stay.

Why?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 08:59 PM
Because I like living with my kids. I wasn't happy before we got married. I don't expect to be happy if we got divorced. If I am going to be miserable either way, might as well get to see my kids at night.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/07/11 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Because I like living with my kids. I wasn't happy before we got married. I don't expect to be happy if we got divorced. If I am going to be miserable either way, might as well get to see my kids at night.

You know, there are more than two options here. I know you know that. It's not either be miserably married or miserably divorced. You could always choose to be happy. That is a possibility, even for you.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 04:22 AM
Hold, perhaps now would be a good time to explain to Mrs. Hold that you're glad she, your DD, and her friends had a good time. However, you find it very hurtful, if not downright manipulative (and, frankly, it sounds to me like she did it on purpose to manipulate you), that she made big, expensive plans with DD before involving you. Consequently, the next time it happens, you will play the bad guy, you will pull the plug, and you will deal with the fallout.

Doesn't really matter if you believe your own words, as long as your W does.

When you explain these things to her, she will likely cop an attitude, right? When she does, don't engage her. Just tell her that now she knows without question where you stand, and then leave the room, if need be. If she gets angry, it's not because you're being a bad guy; it's because you're taking away a tool of manipulation. Don't worry; she'll survive

The thing that I don't see being addressed in all this is that now she is playing you against your kids. Apparently, she knows that she can manipulate you this way and is plenty willing to do so. Frankly, I find that reprehensible.

And please, don't respond to me with a justification of her behavior, or a description of how your unwillingness to improve yourself caused this. Your personality traits are neither a cause nor a justification of her behavior regarding this event.

On the other hand, considering how she has pulled these stunts before, and recent past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior...if you don't take a hard stand on the issue, then the next time, it really will be your fault as much as hers.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I just couldn't let this go by without saying something.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Because I like living with my kids. I wasn't happy before we got married. I don't expect to be happy if we got divorced. If I am going to be miserable either way, might as well get to see my kids at night.


My DH has expressed this exact same sentiment (when he is drunk). He quickly retracts it the next day as he is afraid of his taker as well.

I have not advice except to say, at this point, I would welcome his taker. I really would.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 03:07 PM
Good point. I will have the conversation tonight.

This morning Mrs. Hold stated that I would like her to feed me popcorn during a football game. I said "too bad that renders me unattractive in your eyes." She said "well, every relationship needs one romantic partner, we balance out. It doesn't work if you are both cats." I am so closed off to her, all I could hear when she was talking was a voice screaming in my head "BS, BS, BS".
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 04:01 PM
You will continue to hear that voice as long as you don't give it a voice. A respectful and compassionate voice but one nonetheless.

I believe that a romantic person sees romance in everything, and they could make feeding you popcorn while you watched football into a romantic gesture. Romance for me is all about touching and talking and eye contact and therefore can happen anywhere/anytime.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 06:36 PM
Rosy, good point. But remember, in my marriage I am the romantic partner. She is basically saying "if you did not pursue me romantically, there would be no romance." She is correct that I would like it if she fed me popcorn. She is in no way shape or form offering to feed me popcorn. I am the puppy, she is the cat. I am Odie. She is Garfield. She knows me. That doesn't mean she respects, admires or is attracted to me.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 07:18 PM
OK, sorry I misunderstood your post. I was assuming she was telling you you were unromantic. Sorry.

Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 07:32 PM
Garfield loves Odie
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Garfield loves Odie


Garfield tolerates Odie right up until Odie is gone; only then does Garfield realize he gives a dang.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Hi From STIM - 02/08/11 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Because I like living with my kids. I wasn't happy before we got married. I don't expect to be happy if we got divorced. If I am going to be miserable either way, might as well get to see my kids at night.


Well, I fully hope that you are aware (completely) of how your decision to 1) live in a miserable marriage, and 2) refuse to improve the situation in one way (recovery), or another (divorce) is giving your children a warped vision of marriage which will one day shape how they behave in their own relationships.

If you are lucky, they will reject your poor example, if you are unlucky, what was good enough for you is good enough for them.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
every relationship needs one romantic partner, we balance out. It doesn't work if you are both cats." I am so closed off to her, all I could hear when she was talking was a voice screaming in my head "BS, BS, BS".

Well, of course your head screamed "BS"; that's exactly what her statement is. Probably without malice, but it's just not true. In fact, I submit that the exact opposite is true. I believe a relationship works best if both partners are either cats or puppies, but not one of each.

Of course, there is a matter of degree where each makes an effort to accommodate the other, but diametric opposites are just painful to each other.

...actually, that's not quite right. I think it's more accurate to say that the "cat" will find the puppy annoying or be afraid of it. The "puppy" will feel rejected and abandoned by the cat. I believe that is the more painful experience.

As another "puppy" married to a "cat" (who, ironically, loves puppies and dislikes cats), this has been my experience. I'm guessing it is yours as well?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 02:16 PM
Rosy: No problem. Usually it is the guy who is not romantic. In many ways, Mrs. Hold and I are gender reversed. If we had been smart, I would have stayed home with the kids and she would have worked outside the home. I think we would both have been happier that way. Oh well.

HHH: yes, I understand I am setting a bad example by not "going for the gold". My kids know I am miserable. Hopefully that will motivate them to choose differently.

CTF: yes, my experience of the cat-puppy dynamic is very similar to yours.
Posted By: tccoastguard Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
HHH: yes, I understand I am setting a bad example by not "going for the gold". My kids know I am miserable. Hopefully that will motivate them to choose differently.


Hold, I'm having a hard time buying into the concept of that you want to stay for the children but you're not willing to do what is necessary for their long term benefit. You can hope all you want that they're reject your example in favor of... something else but in all likelihood that won't be the case. You're defining marriage for them right now and you don't seem to care enough to change the message they're receiving. Extremely selfish IMO.

This is a concept that seems to define you: you don't want to do the work to have a good marriage, you don't want to do the work to be a good father (being a good example is integral to being a good father btw), you don't want to leave because you won't be happy and you won't be able to see your kids every day.

See where I'm going here? This isn't a new revelation for you... but I don't think I've ever understood why you do what you do (or don't do). You are miserable, you believe you will always be miserable no matter what you do. If that's the case, what motivates your actions? Can it really be selfishness if you think you will be exceedingly unhappy no matter what? Why doesn't the kid's welfare motivate you in that case if all things being equal, your life sucks. What motivates you right now to get out of bed and proceed along this fixed path you have set for yourself? Call me curious, I've been reading your thread for a long time and have yet to understand WHY.

Travis
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 02:43 PM
TCCG: Never said I was staying "for the kids". Am staying for me. To be with them.

What motivates me to get up every day? Not much. Just the perverse secondary payoff I get from punishing myself this way. It feeds my martyr complex. Staying home in bed and allowing it all to come crashing down would probably be healthier. But I don't have the guts to do that.

BTW, congratulations on taking a stand and moving on. Took guts. Kudos.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 06:37 PM
Hold, after another yet another round of the same-old, I have to think that perhaps the way to address this situation is to do a brainstorming on what WOULD make you happy, or at least very content. It doesn't even have to be realistic.

What if you won the Powerball? Would that do it?
What if Mrs Hold transformed herself into a sexy, love-making minx?
What if your son invented the next social network site and became a gazillionaire?

At this point, I'd love to hear anything at all that would get you out of the gloom and doom scenario.

I have seen homeless bums that enjoy life better than you do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 07:21 PM
Easy, I don't think there is anything that would make me happy or content. That is why I keep thinking the real answer is ECT.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 08:02 PM
Perhaps thinking is the problem.

You seem to now be making most of your decisions in the abstract. Which is fine, but can become problematic for people who have experienced many real failures, percieved failures or tend to be perfectionists.

These people tend to develop a bias, when considering choices, towards concluding failure is the likely result and thus stop doing anything.

I guess my point was instead of trying to think of what makes you happy, start doing things and see if any of them do make you happy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 09:01 PM
Good point. You are correct. I expect nothing will make me happy. So far, nothing has. That does not eliminate the possibility that something might. I guess that answers tccg's question about why I even bother to get out of bed. Maybe some day something I do will open the door to joy. Right now I would bet on ECT. But perhaps something less drastic may suffice.
Posted By: Rosycheeks Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 09:46 PM
Have you seen a doctor?
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/09/11 11:20 PM
One thing that strikes me is, joy and happiness are things that seem to become more fleeting as one gets older.

There's a James Caan movie where he meets up with his former high school basketball coach, who is old and grizzled, and the coach says something like, "you can't understand the tastes of an old man. No matter what you eat, nothing tastes good anymore."

I don't think any person our age (middle age plus) regularly experiences the overwhelming, exuberant joy we did in our youth (understanding that you've mentioned you didn't have it then, either.)

Maybe a more realistic goal would be to seek a state of contentment.

Also, could it be that maybe part of your resistance in getting to a better spot emotionally is an overall feeling of resentment toward the powers-that-be, toward providence, that you did not receive an exuberant, joyful youth? That perhaps you feel it was a one-shot chance that has come and gone?

If so, that is quite a load to bear. And if so, I would imagine that forgiving yourself or whomever for that may allow you to move forward in a more positive way.

None of us here who know your story can deny that you made fabulous use of your time in your youth (Harvard Law Grad!)

I would say you made some very wise choices throughout your life.
You will always have the means to write your own ticket any way you want.

But I would assess that you have a lot of forgiving to do to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
None of us here who know your story can deny that you made fabulous use of your time in your youth (Harvard Law Grad!)

See, that is where we disagree. I have a reunion coming up. I am unsure whether I should go. If someone asks me how I feel about HLS, these days I feel that the worst thing HLS ever do for me was admit me.

I would much prefer if I had spent my time getting drunk at bars and having sex with women I didn't know. I feel that I wasted my youth deferring my desires in the hope that I would be rewarded in later years. Not having been rewarded in later years, I feel that I should have spent my weekends during college at the bar at the O'Hare Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers rather than studying to get good grades. I would say I made stupid choices that have now locked me in to running on a treadmill. I feel like a hamster on a wheel. Not as someone who has any control over my life. And certainly not someone who can write their own ticket.

Mrs. Hold had a take home test last night. I sat next to her and calmed her down and kept reassuring her she is smart and was doing a great job. She thanked me for being there for her. She even gave me a hug when she was done. But as you say, for this old man nothing tastes good. I am not proud of myself for taking the time to sit with her. Or for having the wisdom to be able to say something helpful while she was stressed. Or for living up to my aspirations for how a husband should behave. I just feel numb. And stupid for throwing coins in a bucket that has no bottom.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 04:06 PM
You could still be at the Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers.

You could be ignoring Mrs. Hold's angst and watching T.V.

You are not.

Quote from the movie The Social Network

"You aren't a bad person, you are just trying so hard to be an [censored]."
Posted By: FaithHopeLove Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 05:13 PM
Hold, I am so sorry you are still where you are. I don't know what to say.

I have the luxury of my marriage not being "in my face" except on weekends, so I don't think I could have worked on myself as much as I have, in an ordinary situation.

Looking back, I had developed a huge aversion to my husband as a defense mechanism, and it wouldn't have mattered what he did or said I would have recoiled from it. I get that.

I so wish something could flip the switch for you. Yeah, I know it is easy for us to say YOU have to flip it for yourself, not so easy when you are yourself.

So hugs for now and a prayer that you will find your way, too.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I would much prefer if I had spent my time getting drunk at bars and having sex with women I didn't know. I feel that I wasted my youth deferring my desires in the hope that I would be rewarded in later years. Not having been rewarded in later years, I feel that I should have spent my weekends during college at the bar at the O'Hare Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers rather than studying to get good grades. I would say I made stupid choices that have now locked me in to running on a treadmill.

IMHO, this is a cognitive trap. People tend to think hindsight is 20/20. I don't think it is. I think one must force themselves to analyze past decisions based on the information they had at the time they made that decision. Looking at things any other way is a recipe for unhappiness.

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
But as you say, for this old man nothing tastes good.

I view this analogy as a loss of perspective. In my youth at thanksgiving dinner, I would laugh when my father would claim he was thankful to be healthy, safe, alive, with shelter and something to eat. These things seemed so trivial to me and suggested to me that his expectations must be pretty low. But when one considers that only a very small percentage of the people who have ever lived get to routinely achieve that state, it seems less trivial.

Said differently, the old man might consider the utility of eating over the utility of the food tasting good. I imagine if the old man hasn't eaten for a while, this is what occurs. This is not to say one can't desire good tasting food, just that one should not lose sight of the fact that bad tasting food is not the lowest things can go.

BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind on things, just throwing out things to consider.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
IMHO, this is a cognitive trap. People tend to think hindsight is 20/20. I don't think it is. I think one must force themselves to analyze past decisions based on the information they had at the time they made that decision. Looking at things any other way is a recipe for unhappiness.

I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer half way through my first year of law school. I just didn't have the guts to quit.

My parents saw that I did not enjoy it when I started working. They begged me to stop. They offered to pay the tuition for me to go back to school to switch careers. I refused to give up the paycheck.

I didn't lack for information. I lacked cojones. Same as today.

And, as you correctly point out, I had no appreciation for my blessings. Still don't. Keep thinking the Lord will eventually make me pay for that. But maybe this is how is how payment is extracted. The Lord gave me the beautiful intelligent competent wife I always prayed for. Joke is on me.
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 05:45 PM
Okay, Hold, so grow a pair and go do something you like. Lots of people change careers. So stop being a lawyer. Be something else.

You say you don't appreciate your blessings. So appreciate them.

I've known people like you my entire life. Heck, I was raised by one. Trust me, you aren't doing your kids any service by staying the way you are and still insisting on being around them. If you don't care about yourself, and that's pretty obvious, maybe you can at least find it in yourself to care about your kids enough to stop inflicting all this self-imposed miserableness on them. I certainly wish my own mother would have figured out how to do that, but she's 63 and still going strong in all her depressive nastiness.

You can choose to be that way for the rest of your life if you want to. I have no idea why anyone would want to though. And if you do, don't be surprised if your kids move far away when they grow up and don't ever call and you find yourself living alone with a bunch of cats.

Good luck with that.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I would much prefer if I had spent my time getting drunk at bars and having sex with women I didn't know. I feel that I wasted my youth deferring my desires in the hope that I would be rewarded in later years. Not having been rewarded in later years, I feel that I should have spent my weekends during college at the bar at the O'Hare Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers rather than studying to get good grades. I would say I made stupid choices that have now locked me in to running on a treadmill. I feel like a hamster on a wheel. Not as someone who has any control over my life. And certainly not someone who can write their own ticket.

I know! And the fact that you can come up with these instances means you've got a pretty good idea of what would do it for you.
I'm pretty impressed to see this. You don't need the stinkin' ECT.

I understand you hate being a lawyer, and that you feel like you live on a treadmill. But one day, sooner than you think, your kids will be off to college and then you will see the cage door has been open all of this time. Maybe you will go for it, maybe you won't. But I'm telling you for sure, the door is always open.

You know Harley's material better than I, and I'm sure you've read his thoughts on when you have his blessing to leave.

I love the fact that you actually produced such a vivid example of snagging middle aged divorcees at an airport bar. How simply and completely attainable that goal would be for you. It's almost comical.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by rprynne
Looking at things any other way is a recipe for unhappiness.

I agree that spending most of my waking time regreting having gone to law school, regretting being a lawyer, and regretting being married to my wife is a recipe for unhappiness. Especially if I am unwilling to change the ones that could be changed.

My wife is an especially fine woman. I could choose to be happily married to her even if we never had sex. If I choose to stew in dissatisfaction, that is on me.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 07:04 PM
My wife is an especially fine woman


This is not the picture you paint in your posts....at all.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
My wife is an especially fine woman. I could choose to be happily married to her even if we never had sex. If I choose to stew in dissatisfaction, that is on me.


<I had to edit this post.>


I'm impressed that she has controlled her weight and gotten a really good job. Those things take mammoth efforts.

Would you say those things match your herculian efforts and investments in her?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 07:34 PM
I think at this point she is making more of an effort in her life and in our marriage than I am. I have given up trying. Both in life and as to our marriage. Lately she has tried to spur me to put some effort into my life. But I am immune to her words.

SD: the fact that she is a fine woman does not mean that we are compatible. I know Dr. Harley says any couple can learn to be compatible. Perhaps. But I am not willing to become the man she would find attractive. For a man who was willing and able to meet her ENs, I think she could be an excellent wife. I have been saying that here for years. The problem is, I am not that man.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 08:27 PM
Anyone remember that true story of the man who was an accountant with a big house and the perfect family? How he murdered them all (kids, wife and his mother) and then fled living under an assumed name for the next 20 years or so....


Don't know why that story came to mind just now.

Edited to add--his name is John List
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 08:54 PM
Not to worry, I don't have any inclinations in that direction. Doesn't fit my masochism streak. I am more likely to escalate the conflict until my wife leaves me, then mope around when she finds someone else to be happy with. I don't blame my wife for being the source of my problems. I was miserable before I met her. If I do anything drastic, it would be against myself, not Mrs. Hold or our kids. Luckily I don't have the guts to go through with anything like that.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 09:10 PM
I think you need some kind of fresh start, Hold; not necessarily in your marriage, but in some way that you can really shake things up for yourself. You've been in quite a rut for a long, long time.

Would finding a new, better firm to work for make a difference?
Imagine, nobody knows you, you can reinvent yourself in a new way.

Do you have buddies with whom you can go out and slam a few beers? If not, can you see yourself developing some loose friendships that way?

Just anything to shake things up.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/10/11 09:21 PM
As I wrote the last post, I really felt like I was wasting time.

I'm reminded of a buddy of mine in college. This guy was just destined to go nowhere. He ended up graduating with a two-year nursing degree, which he utilized for awhile.

He is my age, 47, and still lives at home with his parents. Never had a girlfriend, never has been out of the state, never done anything.

For years I would say, why don't you move to the city? Get your own apartment, have some fun, etc.

He'd change the subject and continue to gripe about his existence.

If you can't help yourself, you are pretty much done.

In your case, Hold, I am just dismayed. Guys like you rule the world. You've got wealthy clients, you associate with the richest and most powerful. You can easily have anything a man could want, yet you will consider none of it.

You are either a saint, or crazy in the head. I keep switching between the two prognoses...
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: - 02/11/11 02:56 PM
Your not a martyr, by any stretch of the imagination, you don't even have the psychological definition of having the martyr complex. You prefer self-inflicted abuse.

You like being miserable, it's what defines you, it's where you feel most comfortable. And no amount of ECT, or words from anyone here is going to change that.

You've been posting here for over 10 years (this thread alone has been going on for TWO YEARS), and NOTHING has changed. you still complain about the same things, and yet refuse to change your life, or anything in it..

You like complaining about your life, because it gives you attention, but I imagine, you don't complain about your life to those you work with..only strangers on a message board.

I notice the wife, has been losing some weight and has even gotten a job, looks like She is making some progress (in areas you have complained about for years) good for her!!

Maybe as she continues to grow in ways your refusing to, she will do just what you want her to do--what you've always wanted her to do..and that is LEAVE YOU!! Then you can complain some more about "oh poor me, my wife left me"..

It's what you want because it's what you think you deserve..and who knows maybe you do deserve that, especially after all the years of whining she's not doing just what you want when you want and how you want..

Your 40+ years old, it's time to grow up..and stop whining..

we know you hate your job, we know you only became a lawyer because everyone else wanted that for you, and you couldn't tell them it's not what you wanted for YOU!!

You love the self loathing--it's where your comfortable..you wouldn't know what do without having THAT...





Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Hi From STIM - 02/11/11 03:26 PM
Quote
Mrs. Hold found a much less expensive restaurant for dinner Saturday. She paid for the hotel and most of the shopping by D14. So in the end I could live with the total cost. D14 and her friends had an awesome time.

Good for her, finding a way SHE could afford to pay for most of it, without totally depending on you to cover the entire cost..

And of course you think it's a love buster, because she wasn't totally dependent on you (therefore you couldn't make her feel bad about the expense, and as such can't hold it over her head) she found a way to give something to your daughter that she wanted to give her..that wouldn't strain YOUR over all budget.

Sounds more like she has made some changes in her own life, and you resent that..because you refuse to change..

The more I think back over your posts, and even reading these most recent ones...you sound very controlling, have to control the finances, and if I can't control how much she spends, then I'll control how much money comes into the house...I will SHOW HER!!

The sad thing is Hold, for years I sympathized with you, now, I honestly wish she would leave you, so that SHE can find happiness with someone who really loves her..
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Hi From STIM - 02/11/11 06:10 PM
Quote
07/28/10 01:41 PM Re: Hi From STIM [Re: Retread]



Yes, if I were willing to make the required changes in lifestyle. I am not. Dot you realize what you are saying? Suppose my wife agreed to these changes? Then I could not blame her for our problems. Then I would have to take responsibility for our situation. Then I would not be able to feed my resentment and frustration toward her, and I would have to turn my attention inward. What are you trying to do, solve the problem? Who the heck wants to do that?


Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/11/11 06:54 PM
ThornedRose, I think your assessment is a little harsh.

I don't believe Hold cares to control anyone.

I think he sufferes from chronic boredom.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 02/11/11 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by ThornedRose
Quote
07/28/10 01:41 PM Re: Hi From STIM [Re: Retread]



Yes, if I were willing to make the required changes in lifestyle. I am not. Dot you realize what you are saying? Suppose my wife agreed to these changes? Then I could not blame her for our problems. Then I would have to take responsibility for our situation. Then I would not be able to feed my resentment and frustration toward her, and I would have to turn my attention inward. What are you trying to do, solve the problem? Who the heck wants to do that?


TR, here here, great posts! Ok, time for some radical honesty on my part. smile

What is the single best thing we could do for HOLD? Ban him from this website. This site feeds his neurosis/narcissism. He gets enough sympathy here that he keeps coming back to post because there is a pay off involved. The single best thing that could happen to HOLD is to eliminate the payoff, for everyone, EVERYONE, to simply stop responding to ANY AND ALL of his posts. I know to some that may sound cruel, and HOLD may certainly disagree with my assessment, but it's probably the best thing that could ever happen to him long term.

The primary reason I stopped posting about my own life here a long time ago is because I found that I wasn't posting here to get better or to make improvements in my own life, I was posting to get sympathy and to reinforce my own reflected sense of self and my own narcissistic tendencies. So, I stopped posting for a long time, and even now, I never post about my own life circumstances for this very reason. Posting here actually works against resolving my own issues and my marital issues. I know what's wrong with me, and what's not right in my M, and no amount of me posting about it here is going to make me or my M any better. I'm not saying this is the case for other people that post here, because most people don't suffer from a hard case of narcissism like I do (and HOLD does in my view). Just my .02!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/11/11 07:21 PM
Hitch is correct.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Hi From STIM - 02/12/11 05:50 PM
EasyE

Quote
ThornedRose, I think your assessment is a little harsh.

I don't believe Hold cares to control anyone.

I think he sufferes from chronic boredom.

And that's okay if you think I'm being a little harsh, but from having been reading this threads over all these years, he's had the same complaints..radical honesty is often times harsh...

1. She wants a certain lifestyle..he knows he is fully capable of providing the life style--heck he enjoys that lifestyle too..but he refuses to do what it takes to provide it, in order to make her mad..why?? because of his other complaints about her over the years...

2. He's not getting sex as often as he wants it..so I'll control the amount of money that comes into the house until she starts having sex with me as often as *I* want it..

3. She's fat..she needs to lose weight.she's remedied this and has taken that complaint off the table

4. She's not working--she's remedied that as well, and got a job--heck she's even changed some of her ways of spending, and found less expensive venues--

but even those changes are not good enough for him to change himself--


he has in fact done things to punish her for her lavish spending in the past, and her lack of sexual interest in him (what woman finds a self-loathing man attractive or sexually desirable?? what wife finds a husband who puts a money value on sex attractive or desirable??)

He is a tit-for-tat type person..(just from reading his posts over the years, its evident)

if she has sex w/ me x number of times--then I'll buy her that piece of Jewelry I know she wants from Tiffany's..

he loathes her for spending thousands of dollars after they married to furnish *their* home..(money he saved before they married)

he prefers to sulk and whine about not having sex as often as HE wants as opposed to changing himself--he'd rather control the amount of money coming into the home as a way to punish her for his not getting sex as often as he'd like it..

Most assuredly, she could use sex to get the things she wants..she could have sex with the man everyday...but why should she prostitute herself like that to someone who professes to love her??? Have sex for trinkets? have sex for more money to be provided?? how insulting for her as both a woman and his wife..

he has said in the past he feels like an ATM, yet he is the one who has placed a 'money' value on his love, and even sex within the confines of their marriage--yet he wants to cast blame on her for the lack of sex in their marriage..no woman, no wife wants to be treated as a prostitute in their marriage 'earning trinkets' for sex..

While both sex and financial support are important aspects of marriage, neither one should be used to manipulate or get what you want from the other person..

So he must ask himself...is she really refusing to have sex with him because he's not providing financially the way he is fully capable of providing? or because she refuses to be treated as nothing more than a prostitute???

Well, given some of the comments he has shared over the years, I would boldly say..she refuses to be treated as a prostitute in her marriage..and she will continue to refrain from having sex with him as long as he ties money and trinkets to that aspect of their marriage..





Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 02/13/11 02:00 PM
Hold has said himself that he does not know if the forum is a help or a crutch.

If the forum is giving him too much sympathy and enabling him to stay in his position, I think it better for the posters to change their direction, rather than the idea of banning Hold from this forum in the assumption that this is somehow going to transform him.

To remove the forum would remove some sympathy but also deny him the cutting posts from TR.

Not being here 10 years ago I flicked back to Holds early posts and there it is:

>>>>
And that is here it plays into my resentment from my youth. If she is going to make me do this the hard way, then why should she get the benefit from my making myself more self-confident? I resent her for making this hard on me. She is my wife. She is supposed to make my life easier. My work on myself would be easier if she would accomodate my needs.
<<<<<
So the issue remains the same.
It seems simple, but to go from a state of resentment due to shattered confidence, to a state of being self confident, presents like a chasm that can not be crossed.

It is apparent that most people when entering marriage do not have the skill sets needed to deal with the issues that they will later face. That is why MB exists.
Hold may need a rhema that flicks a switch and thereby makes such I giant leap, into the small step it can be. Maybe it comes from the forum, or somewhere least expected.

Hold without a rhema, there still seems to be enough in the previous 6-7 months, for you to be able to reflect on when things were going well and also the things you did that caused derailment. That would head you in the right direction.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 02:26 PM
I have been derailed since before I got married. Hopefully my present despair over who I have become will motivate me to become someone I can be proud of. TR is correct. I need slaps, not support.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 02:48 PM
A person who has the same problem year after year doesn't really want change, and hold has alluded to this himself. People who really want resolution find resolution.

It is notable to me that we have many people on this forum [the old Emotional Needs forum] who come here year after year and have the same problem today they arrived with years ago. They have been coming here for years and know nothing about Marriage Builders. They have never used the program in all these years - never even considered it. These old posters show up every month. It is just amazing to me the stark contrast between this and the other MB forums, which tend to be more solution and action oriented.

Part of the problem is that folks historically don't discuss or understand Marriage Builders on this forum and are under the impression the point here is to discuss conflicts.....for years. That dynamic tends to attract folks who are attached to their problems because it gives them a platform for endless venting.

We have people who have been on this website [in other forums] who know more about MB in 6 months than older members who have been here for 10 years. But then, they are looking for solutions.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:01 PM
Yes, ML, you are correct. I have not been seeking resolution. I have been seeking to maintain the status quo. I wanted to stay married to Mrs. Hold and live with my kids while they were minors. I have done that. Now that the kids are getting ready to leave home, my anxiety level is increasing. Hopefully that will motivate me to change in a positive direction.

And it is a presumptuous DJ on your part to say those of us who have chosen not to implement MB do not know or understand it. Some of us know and understand it quite well. We simply have decided not to implement it. That might mean we are foolish. But it doesn't necessarily imply we are ignorant.

Which tends to explain why the long time no progress people are here at ENs / 101. Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo.
Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:21 PM
[quote=holdingontoit)Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo. [/quote]


This makes total sense to me. My DH was/is depressed like Hold. After my A he made amazing changes to himself but now we are sliding back to the status quo. It is scary and difficult to make yourself make changes....like pulling off a band aid. Intellectually you know it is the right thing but....what if you are wrong? I don't want to be without my kids...even part time.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
And it is a presumptuous DJ on your part to say those of us who have chosen not to implement MB do not know or understand it. Some of us know and understand it quite well. We simply have decided not to implement it. That might mean we are foolish. But it doesn't necessarily imply we are ignorant.

hold, I understand that your situation is different in that you a) understand Marriage Builders and b) have rejected its implementation. That is not the case with most long time posters here. How can one know about Marriage Builders when they come here for years on end and discuss specific conflicts and every dog and cat book/program under the sun OTHER THAN Marriage Builders? How would they even know about Marriage Builders since it is not mentioned in the most widely recommended book for the past few years, Dances with Anger?

The Marriage Builders books and services are widely recommended on other forums and have been for YEARS, but look at how I am treated on this forum when I recommend a MB book? I have been accused of trying to "sell books" and all manner of nefarious motives for simply recommending the BOOK that explains this program. crazy How bizarre is that? I never saw board members accused of the same nefarious motives when they regularly recommended Dances with Anger.. crazy But, Lord help them when someone recommends a Marriage Builders book!!

The reason there is no progress on this board is real simple: very few folks here use Marriage Builders. They come here and talk about everything BUT Marriage Builders. It can't work if you don't work it obviously. Making endless posts about specific conflicts is the favored practice around here and it is a distraction from using the program.

As far as it being a "DJ" to state that truth, I would point out that I am not married to you and it is not my goal to establish a love bank with you. I like ya, but I don't love ya, hold! grin
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:34 PM
p.s. most of the marriages over on the private forum did not have infidelity in them and they are just as recovered as the ones who did. Dr Harley states that most couples who come to him for help contain at least ONE reluctant spouse.

In short, the fact that a marriage has infidelity has no seeming relation whether or not they recover. The difference is that those on the other forums are actually using the program. They historically have not used the program over here.

Everything I have told you here is a pretty common reaction of those in recovered marriages who come over here for the first time. They wonder if they have wandered on some alien website because it hardly recognizable as a Marriage Builders forum.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo.

Actually, this is not true. More marriages break up from NEGLECT than abuse. If anyone is more inclined to tolerate the status quo it would be an abuse victim.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 04:43 PM
holdingontoit

Quote
I have been derailed since before I got married. Hopefully my present despair over who I have become will motivate me to become someone I can be proud of. TR is correct. I need slaps, not support.


Honestly Hold, You need both..

I have learned in my own life, that someone who 'slaps me' often cares more for me and my marriage than people who enable me stay wallowing in my hurt, pain and/or self pity..(not that anyone here is *desiring* to do that, I believe they all desire you to grow and have a better marriage..but because you refuse to change--even using this forum as an outlet--you are inadvertently being enabled, when not called out on the truth that it has been about 10 years and you have not done anything to really change yourself or your attitude towards your wife--and yet, still expect things to change..more importantly expect HER to change..while you stay the same)

It is when others look past the BS and call me on it that I know, I can no longer 'hide' behind it..because I know they will continue to call me out on it..or they will eventually stop pandering to me..and allow me to suffer the natural consequences of my own choices..one of which is a loss of relationship with them, they will no longer desire to spend time with me, or be there as part of my support system when I REALLY NEED it...


You've been saying for how many years you 'want' to get ECT? But yet, even that you have refused to follow through on..and it appears you just want others to tell you.."no..don't do it" and thus your needed 'excuse' not to go forward and do it..is it a wise decision to go through that? personally, I don't think it is, I believe it would do more harm to you mentally than not..
however, that being said..if it's that important to YOU to go through it..you would find a way to pay for it..just as you find a way to pay for other things (like your video games) and just as you 'expect' your wife to find a way to pay for things she wants (like an expensive birthday party in the city for your daughter) so stop with the BS on that topic, it's not that important to you...or you would have already found a way to pay for it..

Just as with counseling, if it was that important to you, you would find a way to pay for it..just like others have done, but you don't want to do counseling, because it would require YOU to make changes and have to answer to the counselors for not doing anything..sure you've tried it before..and your wife didn't want to participate..but how much did YOU really want to participate when it came to making changes within yourself??

How much of it was they told you things you didn't want to hear or didn't want to change so you quit?

Why not read this article by Dr. Harley?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html


How can you honestly say you really love your wife, if it seems that everything she does/doesn't do to meet your needs, you put a dollar amount on it??? That my dear friend is not love...








Posted By: rprynne Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 10:10 PM
The common themes I see on the long time posters who keep coming back with the same problems is that they are denial about what they have accepted. They go back and forth claiming they've accepted things, when clearly they haven't or they would shut up about it.

Second, they seem to be on the lookout for the magic bullit. They magical words that are going to convince them that they should do x or y, or whatever. But they are stuck in analysis paralysis, because no matter what anyone says, they are not convinced.

Convincing them requires certainty of outcome which can not be provided in any way that eliminates all risk. And usually they are extremely risk adverse.

And even if a relatively low risk option is presented, their life experiences coupled with their own certainty around their decision making skills makes them extremely biased in considering any suggestions. Meaning regardless of what they say about past choices, they at one time thought it was the right thing to do and it apparently didn't work out, so they conclude that even if they believe it's the right thing to do, they aren't going to do it because they expect they will be wrong again.

It all combines to resigning themselves to no action because nothing sounds like it will work, and even if does sound like it will work, they feel they are probably wrong about that, so don't do it. So to them, the best thing to do is wait around until everything blows up.

In this way, they can just wait for their life to "happen to them". Which I suppose for some is more palatable to having tried and failed. But for most, it's not, so, they seek advice for their plight as a proxy for having tried.

Just my $0.02
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 02/14/11 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Jackblack
Hold has said himself that he does not know if the forum is a help or a crutch.

If the forum is giving him too much sympathy and enabling him to stay in his position, I think it better for the posters to change their direction, rather than the idea of banning Hold from this forum in the assumption that this is somehow going to transform him.

To remove the forum would remove some sympathy but also deny him the cutting posts from TR.

I agree. There is no way to ban someone from this site, unless that person breaks the site terms and conditions, which HOLD certainly does not do. HOLD probably knows what I meant when I posted what I posted, which is that he must choose to walk away from this site for while, as this site serves primarily as a distraction for him, just like it did me. For narcissists, sites like this don't help, they simply feed the narcissism. Narcissists will do pretty much anything to remain distracted and to avoid working on their own problems. We are professionals at practicing avoidance when it comes to change. smile

To be clear, I don't believe your assertion that having other posters change their message to HOLD will help. It's been ten years, and I've been around here about that long as well (though you won't find many posts about my own life except in the archives possibly), and I've seen a lot of 2 x 4's hit HOLD over the years with no substantive results. So I ask you, what is anyone here going to do differently that is going to have any real effects on HOLD? What are you going to do JackBlack? Hit him harder? Already been done by many MANY people before you. On the rare occasions when someone can actually get through HOLD's skin, he'll simply avoid responding to your posts, or placate you enough to shut you up, or at worst, if you can manage to see through the placation, he'll simply reply and ask you to stop posting in his threads (seen that before too with Starfish if memory serves).

I know my responses here may seem uncalled for, but it's only because I honestly believe it's the best thing for HOLD - he needs some tough love so to speak. You can't outplay a narcissist, trust me, I know, I have major narcissistic tendencies myself. I think HOLD needs a long term break from this forum (he's had minor breaks from posting at MB in the past as well). Many here, including myself, reached that same conclusion, and left for a while, or altogether (like Starfish and Takola).

I believe the primary reason HOLD stays here is because this site fulfills one purpose only for him, it's a coping mechanism. He has no plans to change, and as he has said many times, he's simply biding his time, therefore this site serves as a coping mechanism to vent.

What I think has changed over the last year or so, is Mrs HOLD. She is finally waking up to the fact that HOLD isn't going to deliver to her any time soon what she wants in a spouse. Therefore, she is making the changes necessary in her life to move on, when the time is right. Hence the weight loss, the job, and other substantive improvements in her life.

There is a sliver of hope as I see it. As Dr Schnarch wrote about in his book Passionate Marriage, when one spouse starts the process of differentiating (changing their inner core), the other spouse must react. The initial reaction is to resist the change. Dig in the heels and try and convince the differentiating spouse to stop the process of differentiation. If the differentiating spouse doesn't stop, then one of two outcomes is possible. One, the resistant spouse is forced to start their own differentiation process (i.e. changing their inner core values), or the the resistant spouse refuses to change despite the pressure to better themselves. In the latter case, eventually the differentiating spouse will eventually leave the relationship, not because they are bitter or angry per se, but because that spouse has better differentiated him/herself enough that they can no longer remain in the marriage and maintain their more healthy internal/core values.

Obviously I don't know Mrs HOLD, but from what HOLD represents of her, she has started her own process of differentiation, and since we are "one" in marriage, change in one spouse means change for the other spouse. HOLD is experiencing pressure/anxiety as a result of Mrs HOLD's process of better differentiating herself. Right now, HOLD is trying his best to paint two different, yet directly opposing, pictures. On the one hand he appears to be supportive of her efforts, and in some ways he really is genuinely supporting her efforts to change. On the other hand, he's painting himself into a corner, because HOLD refuses to better differentiate himself.

I've seen many here wonder out loud why HOLD refuses to change, that he is addicted to his misery per se. In part, that may be the case, especially for a narcissistic personality. However, Schnarch says this is a natural reaction even for otherwise healthy people. We all cling to the familiar, even when the familiar is bad for us. We all resist the process of differentiation - because that process, while necessary, is painful and plagued with uncertainty. No matter how much the misery may hurt, it is familiar to HOLD, and as a narcissist, the unfamiliar is, well, terrifying in most respects, because the unfamiliar is something that is external and therefore not at all welcome in the narcissistic worldview.

Think of it this way. The process of differentiation is the process of gradually increasing the scope of ourselves (self expansion). Think circle of life, with one big circle, and one really small circle within the big circle. The small circle represents you. The large circle represents what you can be. Now comes marriage, now there are two circles within that big circle - one for you and one for your spouse. We all start off small, and the two circles intersect (cross over one another) just a little bit when we're first married. In otherwise healthy marriages, the crucible of marriage, the process of differentiation, gradually grows the size of the small circles into larger circles - as each spouse undergoes differentiation. The two circles also increasingly intersect - representing the two spouses becoming one. Eventually, the small circles become so large and so intertwined that they appear as one large circle that eclipses the size of the larger circle that originally contained the two smaller circles.

HOLD's problem with respect to this process, has to do with his narcissism. Narcissists are unable to make the leap to better differentiation, regardless of the amount of pressure. For otherwise normal people, who initially resist differentiation, the anxiety/pain/depression/discomfort of the familiar eventually becomes more painful than the fear of the unknown. At that point, the resistant spouse jumps into the circle and starts their own differentiation process. For a narcissist, no amount of pain offered up via the misery of the familiar will permit the jump into the unknown. Narcissists aren't really capable of much personal growth - defined as the expansion of self. To experience self expansion (differentiation) - you have to both acknowledge and embrace that which is external to you - the unknown. Not exactly something a narcissist can easily accomplish IME. Herculean efforts are required for narcissists to better differentiate themselves.

To circle back to my original point, I believe this forum directly conflicts with HOLD's ability to better differentiate himself, because this forum serves as a feeding tube for his narcissism - his ability to continue to choose to merely cope rather than to choose to change. Who knows, maybe HOLD can succeed where I failed, and figure out a way to use the MB forums to effect positive change rather than to merely cope. I couldn't do it personally, which is why I left for several years and am now only back in a limited capacity. HOLD, what say you?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/15/11 01:55 PM
Hitch is again correct.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/15/11 09:59 PM
I think Mrs. Hold leaving would actually be a good thing.

Like when the transmission goes out of your car. You have to do something.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/18/11 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by ThornedRose
he knows he is fully capable of providing the life style--

This is the only part of your quote I disagree with. I know no such thing. I was failing at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I can remember the department head where I worked years ago (before I married Mrs. Hold) saying "You are not cutting it. Decide whether this is what you want to do with your life. If not, quit. If you stay, you need to improve your game. You are on the bubble for being fired. Get off the bubble one way or the other."

Yes, I made junior partner at a firm in Chicago. But my uncle was a large client, and my uncle's golfing buddy was another big client. Did I REALLY make partner, or did they make me partner to keep my uncle and his buddy happy? Not sure I want to know.

So no, I do not know I am fully capable of providing the lifestyle Mrs. Hold wants. Otherwise, everything you said is spot on.
Posted By: rprynne Re: Hi From STIM - 02/18/11 08:47 PM
So, your failures are because of you, your capabilities, and your choices, but your successes are because of good luck?
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/18/11 09:26 PM
Interesting last post, Hold.

Maybe you should get yourself a good, loyal dog and load up a Chevy van and drive around the country for awhile.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 02/18/11 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
Interesting last post, Hold.

Maybe you should get yourself a good, loyal dog and load up a Chevy van and drive around the country for awhile.

Ha! That is similar to what I suggested to him a while back. I had more in mind a Green Acres thing though....total change of lifestyle.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Hi From STIM - 02/20/11 03:16 AM
SM, just trying to imagine MrsHold as Zsa Zsa Gabor!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/22/11 03:38 PM
Spent Sunday shopping for laptops with D14. She wanted the latest and gretest that is very expensive. She asked the entire family to give her checks for her birthday so she could contribute to the laptop. We went looking at various stores, and the choice came down to 2 machines. One was twice the price of the other. We sat in the car and had a long talk. I told her that I was at war inside. Part of me wants to say "yes, you should buy the expensive one because I love you and want you to have everything you desire." Another part of me wants to say "I am your father and I love you and it is my job to help you avoid foolish mistakes. To me, spending so much money on a laptop that will be obsolete in a few years is foolish. So part of me thinks the loving thing is to help you get comfortable spending less on the laptop if the lower priced on is good enough, which it seems to be".

In the end, she agreed to buy the less expensive laptop. Last night she told me she loves it. And that she is glad she let me convince her not to spend so much more money. Kudos to me.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 02/22/11 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Spent Sunday shopping for laptops with D14. She wanted the latest and gretest that is very expensive. She asked the entire family to give her checks for her birthday so she could contribute to the laptop. We went looking at various stores, and the choice came down to 2 machines. One was twice the price of the other. We sat in the car and had a long talk. I told her that I was at war inside. Part of me wants to say "yes, you should buy the expensive one because I love you and want you to have everything you desire." Another part of me wants to say "I am your father and I love you and it is my job to help you avoid foolish mistakes. To me, spending so much money on a laptop that will be obsolete in a few years is foolish. So part of me thinks the loving thing is to help you get comfortable spending less on the laptop if the lower priced on is good enough, which it seems to be".

In the end, she agreed to buy the less expensive laptop. Last night she told me she loves it. And that she is glad she let me convince her not to spend so much more money. Kudos to me.

Good for you Hold.
Posted By: HoldHerHand Re: Hi From STIM - 02/22/11 06:38 PM
Been working on this type of stuff w/ DD13. She spent a few weeks babysitting her cousin last summer. At the end, my sister took her shopping. She had to spend her own money that she had to earn.

She also had some shopping to do after her B-day and Christmas, and 'ol dad had to teach her how to comb the clearance racks.

Still a picky kid... too much into "in crowd" middle-school politics... but, she's learning.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 02/22/11 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Still a picky kid... too much into "in crowd" middle-school politics... but, she's learning.

I think this is partly genetic / universal. Have you read the studies that have come out recently about bullying. Bullying is not done only to people at the bottom of the social ladder. Most teenagers in the "middle of the pack" of social status bully others to jockey for position on the ladder. Only the top 2% generally don't bully, since they can't climb any higher.

We discussed this in the car. She wants what anyone else has, and she wants it NOW. That is the natural teenage tendency. Other studies show that the "foresee future consequences" parts of the human brain do not develop until age 20+. So I have to help her balance what she wants now and what she will regret later.
Posted By: FaithHopeLove Re: Hi From STIM - 02/22/11 07:53 PM
Yes, good for you, hold!

Part of why I love living in my demographically quirky town, is that my kids were not as exposed to want it now/have it now teenage stuff than if we lived elsewhere.

Plus they were surrounded by mostly frugal adults who had enough money, but did not try to keep up with the Jones or revel in instant gratification.

One of my family members is an educator, who shares what she knows about the teenage and young adult brain. We recently had the conversation about shedding the frontal lobe, I think.

I am so glad your daughter gave you positive feedback!
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 02/24/11 01:14 AM
I know quite a few adults who could use this type of lesson.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/03/11 07:38 PM
2 nights ago I snuggled up next to her and put my hand on her hip. She jumped up, screamed "I can't take this any more", and ran out of the room. She apologized when she returned. I told her "apology not accepted".

Last night I got into bed and she said "leave me alone. Stay away. I need space. In other words I am cranky." This morning she apologized. I said I feel that my touch makes her skin crawl. She said that is not true, the real problem is that she has trouble sleeping and she hates it if I disturb her at all at night. I thanked her for sharing with me, but told her knowing her reasons doesn't eliminate the hurt when she rejects me. We need to find a time and manner for me to get into bed that doesn't result in her violently rejecting me. She did not offer any suggestions.

She told me she and the kids want to do something special for me on Memorial Day weekend. I said it was nice, and the kids offering to spend time with me (instead of their friends) helps me feel love from them. From her, time with the kids does not make love bank deposits. From her, only Physical Touch will do.

And I mean touch, not SF. I am not looking for SF. I can no longer perform sexually, not even when I am with myself. So I am only asking for snuggling, not sex.
Posted By: Telly Re: Hi From STIM - 03/03/11 08:05 PM
Oh my gosh--welcome to the crazy house, Hold.

I don't know how you live with this.

Anyway.

Was that sad sad cautionary story you told true about the husband and wife and his regrets? It was so sad, I didn't even have anything to say.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/04/11 12:15 AM
I am speechless. Just stunned.

It's a great relationship you've got there, my friend.


Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 03/07/11 07:09 PM
{{{{hold}}}}
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/07/11 07:31 PM
Thanks. I am choosing to stay and not press the issue, so I am getting what I have signed up for.

This morning on her way out the door, Mrs. Hold leaned toward me to provide Affection. She could not bring herself to kiss me. But she did rub cheeks. Then she pulled back and stuck her tongue out and laughed. DJ alert: I think the intimacy was too much for her. I said "I hope some day you can take my love seriously." She said "I take you very seriously." I said "I meant that maybe some day my love will not freak you out." She said "don't hold your breath waiting for that day". That is as close as we get to honesty.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/08/11 01:59 AM
These episodes are making my skin crawl.

I don't think intimacy is too much for her, I think she doesn't love you in "that way". She loves you as a wallet, and tolerates you for the rest of it.

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 04:27 PM
Yes, I know the core problem is that she does not find me attractive. Probably never did. Lied to me to get me to marry her. And won't admit the truth now. Well, there is also the problem that I am not brave enough to even try to make myself more attractive in her eyes.

But her lack of honesty is OK. I am not admitting the truth to her, either. So, as always, we are well matched.

I did tell her this morning that I do not feel safe around her. So I hide my true thoughts and feelings. She did not show any interest in exploring that further. So it seems we are both willing to live a lie, and to allow the other to do so as well.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I did tell her this morning that I do not feel safe around her. So I hide my true thoughts and feelings. She did not show any interest in exploring that further. So it seems we are both willing to live a lie, and to allow the other to do so as well.


HOLD, curious, can you expand upon why you don't feel safe?

Also, with respect to your primary EN's, I know that SF was your number one EN. Where did FS (financial support) fall? Bear with me here as I think we may have some common ground and I'd like your input.

Recently, DW and I have taken two steps back and one step forward partly because I've found myself upset with her without consciously having a good reason for it - I've oftentimes been left feeling that I'm frustrated with our general financial circumstances and that I've been taking it out on my DW. After having done a fair amount of soul searching, I've come to the conclusion that I had misinterpreted one of the primary EN's when filling out the ENQ, that being FS - which in my case isn't Financial Support as it is explained in the description of the emotional need, at least not without looking under the covers and making some assumptions. For me it is Financial Security. That said, in all fairness to Harley the description does state that FS is one of the more difficult EN's to pin down, probably because it can change over time quite a bit based upon life circumstances and other criteria.

So, where I am in my thought process is that I now feel that one of my primary EN's is Financial Security, and that my DW is not anywhere close to meeting my EN for FS. I don't necessarily need my DW to go out and earn a living per se, as the description in the ENQ refers to, but what I do need is for us to live within our means and we are not currently doing that. Slowly over the last fifteen years, we have whittled down our short term savings in various accounts and products such that I have little short term savings left to speak of (very little - we'd be lucky to survive one month without my employment at this point). We also have more consumer debt now than we've had in a long time. I cannot blame my DW entirely for the debts as I was on an SSRI for about two years, and just went off in January, and during that time, in hindsight, I was not nearly as diligent about our finances as I have been in the past, I just didn't care about much of anything while on the SSRI. Now that I'm off of the SSRI, I care again, simply put.

What I'm wondering is, is FS as I define it a primary EN for you as well? It may not trump SF, but it's up there. Of course, we know Mrs HOLD's primary EN is FS in the traditional support sense (bringing in large amounts of dollars), and that you are not meeting her FS need sufficiently, regardless of whether we think her FS need may be irrational on some level.

The challenge as I see it, is how do spouses who have opposing EN's like this and cannot seem to find a lasting compromise stay in love? The lack of Financial Security for me due to consistent overspending makes serious withdrawals in my love bank (the fact that independent behavior on the part of DW is oftentimes used makes it worse for me - because I feel deceived - more lovebusting behavior here). The lack of sufficient Financial Support in the eyes of my DW results in love bank withdrawals for her. If I'm honest, for the most part we do not have O&H conversation when it comes to FS because of the collective pain surrounding the sensitive longstanding issue.

Currently we're somewhat at loggerheads on this issue, which isn't unusual, except the problem is, we moved into a larger home a few years back (something DW wanted), and part of our agreement was that she would need to work full time in order to pay for the additional household expenses (including the larger mortgage). DW worked full time up until last summer, when she lost her teaching position. We're getting unemployment for her, but that will end soon. At that point, we will be unable to make ends meet without serious spending concessions. Like you, I don't feel safe talking about this topic with DW because it's a sensitive area for us, yet I feel compelled to do something as I'm not the type of person to just ignore the problem and claim bankruptcy in a year or so when we can no longer keep afloat. DW has stated that she will not get another job, because it was too stressful on our family when we both worked outside the home full time, and I would agree with her assessment. Our family functions better with her at home. The problem is we cannot seem to live within our means without a second income.

Normally, the obvious solution would be, sell the bigger home and downsize. Can't do it. While we didn't but at the top of the market in Feb 2008, we bought while prices were still on the way down, we'd barely sell the house for what we owe on it, and we still own the house we moved out of because we couldn't sell it either (it is currently a rental and is paying for itself). Even if we moved back into our old home, we paid for the downpayment on the new home with equity in our old home, so our mortgage commitments wouldn't be much different big picture, not enough to justify going through all of the trouble. So, we cannot downsize our way out of this predicament.

HOLD, does any of this ring true for you? Any advice? I'm struggling to see a clear path forward and would appreciate your input. I can create a separate thread if that would work better, this post turned out much longer than I'd originally anticipated and I don't want to threadjack. smile
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 05:46 PM
Of course she wasn't interested in talking about that.

I bet she'd perk up if you said "I don't feel safe bankrolling your life anymore."

But as long as that doesn't happen, she's good.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 06:08 PM
On my wife's side, there are two situations going on that rather parallel yours.

One is that her father, a roguish fun loving sort, died of cancer around seven years ago. Her mother, a dour woman who never worked a day in her life, latched on to her children as providers. She stayed with one son in his large home, where he had built an apartment for her, and she still refused to provide for herself in any way, though only in her early sixties. Her children now have to see to her needs.

While all of them hack it out in the corporate rat race, she stays home in comfort, drinking tea and enjoying life without a care in the world.

My wife resents the hell out of that.

And now the good son who provided the home for her is looking at a divorce. His wife never worked a day in her life, either. She spent her days, while he slaved at work, having lunch with friends, spending money, and basically living a beautiful life.
Apparently his wife met someone while out and about during the day.

The good son has two children (both of whom are taking all in stride), and he is looking at a financially devastating divorce.

One thing is for sure, the two carefree women will not so much as suffer missing even one mid afternoon luncheon.

While all of the others hash out a living, day to day, to pay for it all.
Posted By: Isabeau Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by HitchHiker
HOLD, curious, can you expand upon why you don't feel safe?

I was also wondering about this.

Quote
The challenge as I see it, is how do spouses who have opposing EN's like this and cannot seem to find a lasting compromise stay in love? The lack of Financial Security for me due to consistent overspending makes serious withdrawals in my love bank (the fact that independent behavior on the part of DW is oftentimes used makes it worse for me - because I feel deceived - more lovebusting behavior here). The lack of sufficient Financial Support in the eyes of my DW results in love bank withdrawals for her. If I'm honest, for the most part we do not have O&H conversation when it comes to FS because of the collective pain surrounding the sensitive longstanding issue.

So, are you saying that your wife refuses to be accountable to you about her spending? And she knows that overspending is a painful concern to you, but she continues to do it anyway? frown
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 06:27 PM
Hitchhiker: I sympathize with your situation. No fun when both spouses are unhappy with the family finances.

As for the pure financial picture, my suggestion is that if you aren't brave enough to have the conversation with your wife, then you need to get another job so you can afford the life your wife wants to live. Then the FS problem will go away. Of course, you will probably have a DS or FC or lack of UA time problem to address, but maybe you will find those topics easier to address with Radical Honesty.

As for how does a couple who fights over FS stay in love, surely you cannot expect me to have an answer to that. I can't even remember what it felt like to feel romantic love for my wife. Now, if you ask me how to keep the cold dark flame of frustration and resentment alive, THAT I can wax poetic on all day and night. But love? All I can do is refer you to that Tina Turner song from her Private Dancer album.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 06:35 PM
Why don't I feel safe, hmmm, let me see. Maybe because I keep getting kicked in the teeth whenever I am physically close to her? Forget 18 years of being rejected sexually. Now she won't even let me get near her. First I touch her hip and she screams she can't stand to be near me and jumps out of bed and runs away. Then the next night before I even get into bed she tells me to stay away and not get anywhere near her and give her space. Then the next night she says she is sorry for pushing me away, and she wants to make it up to me, so she will allow me to have my foot touch her foot. No, I can't imagine why I don't feel safe when I am near her.

And that is just the physical side. Mentally, I am disinclined to tell her the truth about how I feel, because she is so dismissive when I tell her I am unhappy. Her basic response is "you wouldn't be happy no matter what I do, so it doesn't matter whether or how I hurt you, because whether I treat you well or poorly you'll still be unhappy, so I might as well do what is easier for me and keep rejecting you."
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 06:45 PM
I just had a thought.

It seems to me, there's a flaw in the whole EN thing, and that is that they are not "weighted" to each other.

For instance, providing financial security is extremely difficult to achieve; and is it fair to lay that squarely on the shoulders of one spouse? Is it fair for one spouse to say they require this to be content, yet not act in a manner to achieve it?

And take sexual fulfillment. Some might say it is a rather simple thing to proffer up for a total of 45 minutes a week. Surely easier than providing financial security.

But yet, these things are all treated as if they offset each other.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Isabeau
So, are you saying that your wife refuses to be accountable to you about her spending? And she knows that overspending is a painful concern to you, but she continues to do it anyway? frown


Yes, however in her defense, I have not done the best job of meeting her other primary EN's. Not making excuses for her, as your statement is accurate, but I also know that our Takers are out due to our love bank withdrawals and therefore it is easier to continue to chooose LB'ing behavior. I am in the midst of putting together a plan to better meet her EN's in an effort to determine if she will become more amenable to meeting my EN's in the process. I am skeptical this will work, as I've done so in the past and the overspending still persisted, but that was a number of years ago now so I'll give her the benefit the the doubt. Besides, I'm the only one here so I have to do the changing. smile
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hitchhiker: I sympathize with your situation. No fun when both spouses are unhappy with the family finances.

I agree. frown

Quote
As for the pure financial picture, my suggestion is that if you aren't brave enough to have the conversation with your wife, then you need to get another job so you can afford the life your wife wants to live. Then the FS problem will go away. Of course, you will probably have a DS or FC or lack of UA time problem to address, but maybe you will find those topics easier to address with Radical Honesty.

To be clear, while I do prefer to avoid conflict, I have repeatedly brought this issue up over the past couple of months. Initially I outlined a solid plan to pay down roughly half of our consumer debts by taking some profits on some investments and using a bonus and our tax refund, and then cutting down on monthly expenditures for approximately one year to pay off the remainder of the consumer debts. I outlined the entire plan, and enacted the plan last month, and have already paid down our debt by a third, and it will be down by half by the end of next month. However, we have since added to the total number over the past two months, by roughly half of the amount that resulted in paying down a third of the outstanding debts. I won't use real numbers here, but as an example, if I just paid down 10k in debt, we added 5k in the last two months.

My DW says that my lack of meeting her FC EN is my biggest problem right now, particularly not spending enough time with the kids, which is very hurtful to her. So, I'm creating a detailed plan to address this issue this week, and am already taking basic steps as of two days ago. I am skeptical though, as I said before, because I've been down this road before, and while I fulfill my end of the bargain, I don't see much reciprocation. With no reciprocation, I eventually stop trying, because my love bank gets too far depleted.

Some at this point may ask, why would your FC, particularly spending time with my children, be something that I stop doing? This is a hard question to answer. My first honest reason is that I have narcissistic tendencies and am therefore overly self centered. The second reason is that the more indebted we become, the harder I feel I have to work, in order to succeed, receive good raises, promotion opportunities, etc., in order to be able to service our debts. At this point, I already work 12 hour days, counting commute time, sometimes more. I leave the house at 7:00 AM and return at 7:00 PM M-F. Not much time left for FC by the time I get home factoring in homework, housework, etc. I've never been able to get DW to really clearly understand that the lack of FS for me makes it harder for me to meet her FC needs. My argument makes no sense to her given her own core values, so she cannot get her head around it best I can tell.

I am an IT Director by trade, so increasing my income would be difficult at this point. I'm already high on the pay scale by industry standards, and the next step up (CIO) is a doozy, I'd literally never be home. I see the hours my CIO keeps, the workload, and the politics she has to navigate. Quite frankly, I am not equipped to handle the political aspects of that job, I just don't have the skillsets. A jump into any other industry sector means a serious paycut, so that's not an option either. Much like you, I feel my options are limited, however unlike you, I do really like my current career.

Quote
As for how does a couple who fights over FS stay in love, surely you cannot expect me to have an answer to that. I can't even remember what it felt like to feel romantic love for my wife. Now, if you ask me how to keep the cold dark flame of frustration and resentment alive, THAT I can wax poetic on all day and night. But love? All I can do is refer you to that Tina Turner song from her Private Dancer album.


Good point. smile
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Why don't I feel safe, hmmm, let me see. Maybe because I keep getting kicked in the teeth whenever I am physically close to her? Forget 18 years of being rejected sexually. Now she won't even let me get near her. First I touch her hip and she screams she can't stand to be near me and jumps out of bed and runs away. Then the next night before I even get into bed she tells me to stay away and not get anywhere near her and give her space. Then the next night she says she is sorry for pushing me away, and she wants to make it up to me, so she will allow me to have my foot touch her foot. No, I can't imagine why I don't feel safe when I am near her.

And that is just the physical side. Mentally, I am disinclined to tell her the truth about how I feel, because she is so dismissive when I tell her I am unhappy. Her basic response is "you wouldn't be happy no matter what I do, so it doesn't matter whether or how I hurt you, because whether I treat you well or poorly you'll still be unhappy, so I might as well do what is easier for me and keep rejecting you."


HOLD, that's what I thought, just wanted to be certain. Thanks for the clarification. While I don't share your issues surrounding SF in my M, I do also feel unsafe when having conversations and/or negotiations with my DW for many of the same reasons, I get a dismissive attitude, mostly because we have longstanding disagreements over the same old problems. I'd imagine if my DW were open and honest, she would probably agree that she feels I'd never be happy, and therefore it's just easier to listen to her Taker and do whatever she wants at my expense. frown
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 09:26 PM
I think both of you guys, Hold and HitchHiker, would feel a lot better if your wives were actively contributing to the household finances in a substantial way.

In my previous marriage, my wife didn't want to work, spent a load (keeping us in the red EVERY month), and on top of that, wasn't interested in sex.

Honestly, it was the financial fallout that led me to realize I could not continue int he marriage, not the lack of sex.

If she had seriously helped out that way, I could have worked with it.

Let's face it, providing for a family financially is a huge task.
And for some reason, it seems to be taken lightly and for granted in many marriages.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 09:37 PM
Hitch, please help me understand your situation. Your plan is to pay down debt, but you ran up new debt. Was that a joint decision? Or did your wife incur the new debt without seeking POJA? If the latter, and she is now SAHM, please explain why she still has access to credit? As you know, this issue bedeviled me for years. The only way I got resolution was to convince Mrs. Hold to give up all her credit cards. Pretty much the only debt we have run up the past few years has been by mutual consent.

I know it is not easy to ask for her to give up the cards. It took years for me to work up the courage. Learn from my mistake. Ask immediately. When she asserts that you are a control freak, do judo. Agree with her. Then ask for the cards. If she insists on keeping them, cancel them. Or if they are in her name, stop paying them. Yes, you will eventually be liable and it will hurt your credit. But if she is willing to blow up the family budget by overspending, and you don't want to meekly acquiesce in her misbehavior (like I did for so many years), then you have to draw a firm boundary. No payments until she hands over the cards or agrees to close the account. That means no joint checking account, and all your income goes into a separate account.

Maybe you fear your wife will file for divorce if you take these steps. Unlikely but possible. I am guessing she will give you warning and you can back down if it comes to that. But I think some firmer boundaries will reap large dividends in your case.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 10:06 PM
Easy, you are correct. I did feel better about my marriage when Mrs. Hold got a part time job and started bring in paychecks that were more than a tiny fraction of her weekly allowance (her allowance still runs 2 - 5 times her income, but that is alot better than income of 0).

Silly me, I reacted to feeling better by reaching out to meet her needs. In exchange, she slammed the door shut in my face. Now she keeps telling me she doesn't understand why I am reacting so negatively to her presence. She keeps asking me "where are you going?" when I get up and leave the room after a few minutes of talking to her. I am not brave enough to say "I have reached my limit of being able to tolerate being near you if we are not going to hug or kiss or have sex any time soon, so I am going to go do something I actually enjoy."

I don't want to get into another of those endless arguments that I only want her for sex. Which, in one sense, is correct. After being deprived for so long, I am not interested in spending UA time that is not going to involve sex. Unfortunately, given my inability to perform, it is not possible for our UA time to involve sex (at least not while her repertoire when partnered with me is so limited). So it is going to be very difficult for us to reach a POJA which involves me spending much UA time with her. Yes, I know this dooms our marriage to a lack of romantic love. So what else is new?
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 10:56 PM
That is an awful stalemate. She has you over a barrel sex wise, knowing full well she is your only chance at SF.

And you are her sole source of wealth, her most cherished commodity.

It's an interesting case. She did try to circumvent the situation by spending anyway, leaving the family with huge debts.

In my previous marriage, it was the same way, and she did circumvent by spending anyway. How do you prevent someone from getting their own credit card and racking it up? Or gouging into shared accounts?

She could get pretty mean, too, for a pint-sized little blonde.

My current relationship is much different, much more equitable.
We both work professional jobs, we both save for the future, we both do the chores around the house, and we both enjoy each other greatly.

It makes for a much more enjoyable existence.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 11:07 PM
I have to wonder, also...let's say you were wildly successful in your career, like hundreds of millions of dollars type of success; would she be holding out on you still?

Or would she joyfully give SF with wild abandon?

I'm thinking she would still hold out.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
In my previous marriage, it was the same way, and she did circumvent by spending anyway. How do you prevent someone from getting their own credit card and racking it up? Or gouging into shared accounts?

Took me a while to have the guts to solve this one, but it is doable.

Separate accounts. My paycheck goes into my account. Then her allowance gets transferred from mine into hers. So she cannot pull more out of my account than we have agreed.

As for credit cards, you cannot stop her from opening them. But when I was most desperate, I got her to agree to put a fraud alert on her credit file. That means the credit reporting companies send a letter every time she opens a new account. And I had her list my office as the place where the letters go. So while I cannot stop her from opening new accounts, I can see them fairly quickly. Since the fraud alert got posted, I don't think she has opened any new accounts. Gee, I guess opening new accounts isn't so much fun when you have to pay the balances back yourself!

Oh, and I keep my checkbook in the credenza in my office. So no more stealing checks and forging my name to pay off credit cards.

So a combination of separate accounts, fraud alert, and keeping all papers in my office has worked fairly well to cut down the overspending. Every so often she still finds a way to do an end run. A couple of times she asked to borrow my card so she could buy something online for one of our kids. She had the web site save the credit card information, so she could go back online later and order more stuff. I had to sit her down and delete the information from the web sites. For a while, I slept with my wallet in a locked drawer. For a while I slept with it under my pillow. But lately it has been safe for me to put it on my dresser at night. She doesn't get up in the middle of the night and use the cards online. At least not so far as I can tell, and I do make sure to review carefully every monthly statement to make sure there are no unexpected charges.

As I said to Hitchhiker, I can't imagine why I don't feel safe around her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
I have to wonder, also...let's say you were wildly successful in your career, like hundreds of millions of dollars type of success; would she be holding out on you still?

Who cares? If I had that kind of money, and she continued to reject me, I'd leave. As I have said before, one of the reasons I am not motivated to be more successful at work is that it enables me to avoid having to draw a boundary. I can tell myself I can't afford to divorce her. If I COULD easily afford to divorce her, then I would have to make a difficult decision. This way, I can continue to avoid taking responsibility for the situation.
Posted By: Isabeau Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
This way, I can continue to avoid taking responsibility for the situation.

Your honesty made me laugh out loud. [Linked Image from websmileys.com]
Posted By: writer1 Re: Hi From STIM - 03/10/11 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Originally Posted by EasyE
I have to wonder, also...let's say you were wildly successful in your career, like hundreds of millions of dollars type of success; would she be holding out on you still?

Who cares? If I had that kind of money, and she continued to reject me, I'd leave. As I have said before, one of the reasons I am not motivated to be more successful at work is that it enables me to avoid having to draw a boundary. I can tell myself I can't afford to divorce her. If I COULD easily afford to divorce her, then I would have to make a difficult decision. This way, I can continue to avoid taking responsibility for the situation.

I wrote my critical thesis for my MFA on passive characters in the fiction of Anne Tyler. You would make a very fascinating character Hold. I think Anne Tyler would love you.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am not brave enough to say "I have reached my limit of being able to tolerate being near you if we are not going to hug or kiss or have sex any time soon, so I am going to go do something I actually enjoy."

What about saying something like, "I have reached my limit of being able to tolerate being near you if we are not going to hug or kiss me any time soon, and, no, this isn't about sex, so I am going to go do something I actually enjoy."

I know you said it really *is* about sex, but since that's not going to happen given your, um, current limitations, maybe you can make it about hugging. Or kissing. It�s been awhile since I could be on the boards regularly, but last time I was here I remember you both making good progress in this area. I�m surprised to hear of this regression.

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am not interested in spending UA time that is not going to involve sex. Unfortunately, given my inability to perform, it is not possible for our UA time to involve sex (at least not while her repertoire when partnered with me is so limited). So it is going to be very difficult for us to reach a POJA which involves me spending much UA time with her.
Hold, I feel so sad to see you in this no-win situation. I admit I don�t know much about sex, but if that�s all you want and you really can�t perform, then you have no way to be happy. Almost like nothing she does can make you happy. Because even if she stopped spending too much (and looking at you as simply a bank) you still won�t be happy. You can�t get what you want, even if she offered it to you. Please tell me I�m reading this wrong, and that there are some very real, concrete things she can do to make you happy.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 03:39 PM
Wow, Hold, these steps are such good ones to take! Thank you for sharing this input. I remember how emotionally hard it was when I first opened up a new account separate from my ex (who was jobless, but running up my credit cards and spending my pay faster than I could earn it). I didn�t even take my whole pay check. Just a part of it. I blamed my military travels and the ensuing screw-ups. It was such an emotional experience for me (since I come from a traditional �submit to your husband� background for me to �do this to him� felt like blasphemy). Even now, remembering it, brings tears to my eyes even though I know it was for the best. But I had to do it or we wouldn�t have had the money to pay bills.

I�m saying all that to let you and Easy know at least one other person on this board understands how hard it can be to enact these financial boundaries. But we get there by taking baby steps. I�m glad you took those steps, and I will continue to celebrate your future progress.

Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Took me a while to have the guts to solve this one, but it is doable.

Separate accounts. My paycheck goes into my account. Then her allowance gets transferred from mine into hers. So she cannot pull more out of my account than we have agreed.

As for credit cards, you cannot stop her from opening them. But when I was most desperate, I got her to agree to put a fraud alert on her credit file. That means the credit reporting companies send a letter every time she opens a new account. And I had her list my office as the place where the letters go. So while I cannot stop her from opening new accounts, I can see them fairly quickly. Since the fraud alert got posted, I don't think she has opened any new accounts. Gee, I guess opening new accounts isn't so much fun when you have to pay the balances back yourself!

Oh, and I keep my checkbook in the credenza in my office. So no more stealing checks and forging my name to pay off credit cards.

So a combination of separate accounts, fraud alert, and keeping all papers in my office has worked fairly well to cut down the overspending. Every so often she still finds a way to do an end run. A couple of times she asked to borrow my card so she could buy something online for one of our kids. She had the web site save the credit card information, so she could go back online later and order more stuff. I had to sit her down and delete the information from the web sites. For a while, I slept with my wallet in a locked drawer. For a while I slept with it under my pillow. But lately it has been safe for me to put it on my dresser at night. She doesn't get up in the middle of the night and use the cards online. At least not so far as I can tell, and I do make sure to review carefully every monthly statement to make sure there are no unexpected charges.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Hitch, please help me understand your situation. Your plan is to pay down debt, but you ran up new debt. Was that a joint decision? Or did your wife incur the new debt without seeking POJA? If the latter, and she is now SAHM, please explain why she still has access to credit? As you know, this issue bedeviled me for years. The only way I got resolution was to convince Mrs. Hold to give up all her credit cards. Pretty much the only debt we have run up the past few years has been by mutual consent.

HOLD, sorry for the delay in response, been busy at work. smile

Was the debt payment plan a joint decision? I thought it was, but in hindsight it was not. I put together a detailed email outlining my plan and get a very terse response indicating agreement, however what I do not get is any real negotiation or involvement on the part of DW. She literally has no interest, never has, I am far from certain she ever will. This is challenging for someone like me because I believe that knowledge is power, and that bringing awareness of our reality also helps with accountability. DW would rather just stick her head in the sand from what I can tell, and leave me to work miracles to resolve our financial circumstances. This has been our pattern to date for the most part, off and on as the pendulum swings.

She has access to credit mostly because she either takes credit cards from my wallet without agreement, or she opens new credit cards without my knowledge.

Quote
I know it is not easy to ask for her to give up the cards. It took years for me to work up the courage. Learn from my mistake. Ask immediately. When she asserts that you are a control freak, do judo. Agree with her. Then ask for the cards. If she insists on keeping them, cancel them. Or if they are in her name, stop paying them. Yes, you will eventually be liable and it will hurt your credit. But if she is willing to blow up the family budget by overspending, and you don't want to meekly acquiesce in her misbehavior (like I did for so many years), then you have to draw a firm boundary. No payments until she hands over the cards or agrees to close the account. That means no joint checking account, and all your income goes into a separate account.

Understood, tough love in other words.

Quote
Maybe you fear your wife will file for divorce if you take these steps. Unlikely but possible. I am guessing she will give you warning and you can back down if it comes to that. But I think some firmer boundaries will reap large dividends in your case.


Yes, this has been why I beat around the bush rather and don't take draconian steps like you took. She has threatened divorce in the past whenever I've made mention of taking more drastic steps to reign in her spending. This morning she is over at a family friend's house supposedly looking into full time work where our friend works, hoping to get an inside track. This is partially in reaction to a recent conversation we had where I basically indicated to her that we both have to work full time in order to stay afloat. She overlooked the fact that this isn't what I want, I want her to curb her spending and remain a SAHM, because historically when she works f/t it has been hard on our family unit because I work a lot and cannot contribute enough at home to meet her DS EN when she is also working. I reiterated these points this morning while commuting (we text each other quite a bit). Should make for an interesting conversation when I get home tonight.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by EasyE
In my previous marriage, it was the same way, and she did circumvent by spending anyway. How do you prevent someone from getting their own credit card and racking it up? Or gouging into shared accounts?

That doesn't give me much hope. frown

Quote
My current relationship is much different, much more equitable. We both work professional jobs, we both save for the future, we both do the chores around the house, and we both enjoy each other greatly.

It makes for a much more enjoyable existence.


That's my dream for sure.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Separate accounts. My paycheck goes into my account. Then her allowance gets transferred from mine into hers. So she cannot pull more out of my account than we have agreed.

Technically we still have a joint checking account, but I can remove her at any time as I am the primary and she is only an authorized user.

I've tried the allowance model on multiple occasions, cash, debit cards, checks, etc. None of it has worked long term as DW refuses to track her spending and then gets upset when her actions and lack of planning result in overdraws or not having enough cash for whatever she wants to do. This entire concept is completely foreign to me as I always know exactly how much money I have everywhere and I track everything closely, but I do recognize that everyone is different. Still, I struggle not to DJ DW in this area because a part of me feels she is purposefully being clueless when it comes to money and then always expects me to resolve our financial problems.

Quote
As for credit cards, you cannot stop her from opening them. But when I was most desperate, I got her to agree to put a fraud alert on her credit file. That means the credit reporting companies send a letter every time she opens a new account. And I had her list my office as the place where the letters go. So while I cannot stop her from opening new accounts, I can see them fairly quickly. Since the fraud alert got posted, I don't think she has opened any new accounts. Gee, I guess opening new accounts isn't so much fun when you have to pay the balances back yourself!

Fraud alert, didn't know that was an option, I'll look into it.

Quote
Oh, and I keep my checkbook in the credenza in my office. So no more stealing checks and forging my name to pay off credit cards.

The checkbook stays at the office for me as well. That and I switched my primary checking to ING Direct's Electronic Orange so I only keep a traditional check writing account at our old bank for deposit purposes for miscellaneous checks, all of my autodeposits go into the ING account which only has website based access for me (she has read only access to the account).

Quote
So a combination of separate accounts, fraud alert, and keeping all papers in my office has worked fairly well to cut down the overspending. Every so often she still finds a way to do an end run. A couple of times she asked to borrow my card so she could buy something online for one of our kids. She had the web site save the credit card information, so she could go back online later and order more stuff. I had to sit her down and delete the information from the web sites.

Same thing happens to me quite often. She gets a credit card number and enters it into amazon.com and spends money without any POJA.

Quote
For a while, I slept with my wallet in a locked drawer. For a while I slept with it under my pillow. But lately it has been safe for me to put it on my dresser at night. She doesn't get up in the middle of the night and use the cards online. At least not so far as I can tell, and I do make sure to review carefully every monthly statement to make sure there are no unexpected charges.

Never gone that draconian and I hope not to have to, I should know more after this weekend.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 05:12 PM
Hitch, if your wife is willing to divorce you unless you allow her to overspend, then you face some unpleasant choices. I think you should test whetehr she is bluffing. Look, you can always back down and give her back the cards. If she continues with the divorce because you dared to deny her, then you have your answer what kind of marriage she wants.

My wife would not divorce me over the money. She might divorce me if I don't want to spend any time in the same room with her, and make it clear by tone and body expression that I can barely force myself to talk to her to discuss more than pleasantries. Hitch, do you really think your wife would leave so she can go find someone else who has more money?
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
My wife would not divorce me over the money. She might divorce me if I don't want to spend any time in the same room with her, and make it clear by tone and body expression that I can barely force myself to talk to her to discuss more than pleasantries. Do you really think she would leave so she can go find someone else who has more money?


No, I don't think she will divorce you for any reason. I wish she would, though. That might be the best thing that could ever happen to you.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 03/11/11 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by HitchHiker
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Separate accounts. My paycheck goes into my account. Then her allowance gets transferred from mine into hers. So she cannot pull more out of my account than we have agreed.

Technically we still have a joint checking account, but I can remove her at any time as I am the primary and she is only an authorized user.

I've tried the allowance model on multiple occasions, cash, debit cards, checks, etc. None of it has worked long term as DW refuses to track her spending and then gets upset when her actions and lack of planning result in overdraws or not having enough cash for whatever she wants to do. This entire concept is completely foreign to me as I always know exactly how much money I have everywhere and I track everything closely, but I do recognize that everyone is different. Still, I struggle not to DJ DW in this area because a part of me feels she is purposefully being clueless when it comes to money and then always expects me to resolve our financial problems.

I just wanted to point out that the breadwinner can also have the attitude that these wives of yours have. My XH did. He refused all attempts at budgeting and tracking money. He would get angry if I pointed out we didn't have enough money to buy whatever it was he wanted. I was/am a very frugal person. I wanted to stay home with our son and I did....XH felt that gave him the power to do what he wanted money wise. I think it also gave him the feeling that he could cheat on me and I would never leave him.

However, if I were in the shoes of you men who make the money with over spending wives....I'd take drastic measures.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/13/11 06:10 AM
Just wanted everyone to know that I see the physical problem as temporary, not permanent. I went to the doctor. He gave me iron pills. And a referral to the surgeon. The prescription iron pills seem to be working. Much less bleeding than when I took only over the counter iron pills. And the surgeon will suggest ways to address the bleeding. So I should be able to overcome the anemia. That should enable me to achieve erections, and also to get back to exercising so I have more cardio-vascular fitness so I can perform better. That way I can go back to initiating from time to time. Still not ready to have the "big" discussion about sex. But at least we could overcome the current complete roadblock. Thanks to those who expressed concern.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/14/11 04:09 PM
Mrs. Hold spent the weekend with 3 friends from college. One is already divorced. The other 2 are close to being WAW, and seriously thinking about divorcing when their kids leave home in a few years. Mrs. Hold is down on the concept of marriage. She questions whether anyone can be happily married. I will invite her to share her thoughts and feelings. Perhaps this can lead to more honest conversation.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 03/14/11 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold is down on the concept of marriage. She questions whether anyone can be happily married. I will invite her to share her thoughts and feelings. Perhaps this can lead to more honest conversation.


That's because marriage takes effort. And I'm sorry, but if one spouse is out there hacking out a living day in and day out, and the other is comfortably spending the days at home, having lunch with friends, spending money, with no responsibilities, then that effort is not mutual.

The hardest thing to do on this earth is to get up every day and make a living out there. It is given far too little recognition in marriage these days.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 02:07 PM
I let some truth slip out today. Mrs. Hold was complaining that we don't have any fun together. I agreed. I offered to do more things that are fun. She looked at me strangely, as if she was doubting I could be fun now that I am old and such a curmudgeon. I told her I turned it off, but I can turn it on again. She again looked at me strangely. I told her that our lack of fun was partly on purpose. I used to like having fun with her. I enjoyed our dates. Unfortunately, when we have a great time together, I get horny. Eventually I realized our fun times together almost never lead to sex or even hugging or cuddling. That made the aftermath of those fun dates painful. To avoid the pain, I tried hard not to allow myself to enjoy our time together "too much". I pull back when I start to feel close to her.

You could see her whole demeanor change when I said the part about "I get horny and then we don't have sex and that is painful". I should have just said "let's have more fun" and left it at that. I am my own worst enemy. Yeah, like that is such a revelation! wink
Posted By: Issachar Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 02:31 PM
Well, at least you were honest, which is more than I can say. I was just looking through some old posts, and finding that I'm still doing the same non-MB things today that I was eight years ago. Soooo tired of treading water. As you are too.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 02:41 PM
Don't think you are doing worse than me. I am not applying MB. If I were, I would be cleaning up my own side of the street. Which I am not doing. And I would long since have gone into Plan B. Which I will not do until the kids leave. So I am most definitely doing no better than you at applying the MB system.

The difference is, you seem to be uncomfortable enough that you might actually make some changes now. I am far too comfortable being unhappy to make any changes.
Posted By: Issachar Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 02:55 PM
Brother, I would *never* try to paint my situation as more hopeless than yours, or challenge your position as the most despondent MB-er. That's your schtick! (And I hope you can chuckle at that.)
Posted By: markos Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Don't think you are doing worse than me. I am not applying MB. If I were, I would be cleaning up my own side of the street. Which I am not doing. And I would long since have gone into Plan B. Which I will not do until the kids leave. So I am most definitely doing no better than you at applying the MB system.

You know, hold, I have actually heard Dr. Harley address situations like this on the radio show, where a man keeps going just for the children. One family the wife was involved in an active affair and the husband and wife separated, and the children went into a massive downward self-destructive spiral, getting in trouble at school, etc. They got back together even though the wife's affair did not stop! It was killing the husband, but his children got a lot better just from their parents being together, even through the active affair.

I wish I knew what the date was on that show.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/15/11 06:27 PM
Iss, yes of course I am chuckling. We Nice Guys gotta stick together. Well, actually we gotta bash each other over the head with heavy blunt instruments. But we gotta stick together. Even if that means bashing each other with sticks! grin

Markos, there is no way to know which is better for the children. Staying together even though I am miserable? Breaking up and hoping I can set a better example if I live a more fulfilling life? There are studies and odds but no guarantees. Some kids wish their parents had gotten divorced sooner. Other kids wish their parents never got divorced. Even if one percentage is higher than the other, no one can predict with certainty which side my kids will fall on, or even that both would fall on the same side.

I stay because I am afraid to leave. And unmotivated to improve myself both out of fear improvement would motivate me to leave and out of feeling that Mrs. Hold should not get any financial benefits while she rejects my needs. Not particularly admirable behavior on my part. A braver person would improve themselves, and let the chips fall where they may on the current marriage.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 03/16/11 02:49 PM
Last summer I promised Mrs. Hold we could take a big trip this year in honor of her losing 60+ pounds. I have been saving all year, and now have enough in the account to pay for the trip. Mrs. Hold is so excited. She is going to book the trip tonight. She has actually been smiling and laughing. She is in such a good mood, she actually touched her cheek to my cheek! And she let me touch her hip without jumping up or running away.

The kids are excited but anxious, because we are going to one of the smaller countries in South America. They don't know what to expect from such an exotic place. Should be a wonderful broadening experience for them.
Posted By: Isabeau Re: Hi From STIM - 03/16/11 03:16 PM
Hold, I hope you and your family have an amazing time! [Linked Image from websmileys.com]

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 04/04/11 02:00 PM
This morning I walked up to Mrs. Hold and said "every marriage has its problems. So do we. I can live with many problems remaining unresolved. But there is one issue I cannot tolerate."

You could see her face fall. You could see in her body language she was gathering herself for a confrontation. I continued.

"There is only one acceptable way to place the toilet paper into the roller. Loose end over the top toward the front. Never allow the loose end to point toward the wall and have to be pulled from underneath. NEVER!"

She said she would try to remember. I said "for a moment you really got worried that I was going in a different direction with that introduction, weren't you." She said "yes, I couldn't believe that you were going to bring up something serious on Monday morning as I was about to head out the door for exercise class".

What, she thinks toilet paper is not a serious topic!! crazy grin
Posted By: Issachar Re: Hi From STIM - 04/04/11 04:57 PM
LOL. I was always a staunch advocate of Hold's method until I noticed how easy that makes it for our two-year-old to spin paper off the roll. So I'm thinking about switching, temporarily.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 04/11/11 06:51 PM
Had a very nice weekend with both kids. D14 had a swim meet and did very well. S16 and I did a driver's ed class and then we went to his AAU team's basketball game. He is bummed because he tore 2 ligaments in his finger and can't play this spring. But he wanted to show support for his teammates. Was hard for him to sit on the bench and watch them lose. Sunday he spent the day volunteering to help enter scores at his sister's meet. He worked for 8 hours. And all of us got to watch all 3 of D14's events. She felt very supported.

Mrs. Hold and I each show moments of kindness to the other. But it is hard to disguise that in the big picture we don't feel love for one another. And that leaks out at times.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 04/11/11 08:16 PM
I don't know, I think you two love each other in some weird way.

Otherwise, I don't think you'd be able to live like you do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 04/14/11 01:14 PM
Mrs. Hold offered to have "kissy face" this morning. Thursday is the day she doesn't have any exercise or Weight Watchers classes in the morning. At first I turned her down. Then I figured we could at least snuggle. One thing led to another. It started to work. Then it didn't. Mrs. Hold was very gracious. I, of course, feel like dung. Decades of rejection while I could function. Now she is willing and I can't. I want to punch my hand through a wall I am so frustrated. I hate myself for not following my first instinct and turning her down. Everything I ever wanted is there for the taking, but it remains just beyond my grasp. I feel like bashing my head against the wall until it is a soggy bleeding mess.

And of course it is tax season so I am swamped at work. Ugh. Thank goodness I warned my secretary and the lawyers who sit nearby that there will be NO birthday celebration for me this year. A couple of them reminded me yesterday that I am a spoilsport for not letting them celebrate. Exactly.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 04/15/11 10:05 PM
Hold, hang in there.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Hi From STIM - 04/15/11 11:32 PM
Geez, Hold, like it's your fault? Considering the constant rejection you've faced for years on end, it's no wonder.

I worked at Microsoft in Seattle for years. It will rain for weeks on end in Seattle. And sometimes, after literally months of unending drizzle, suddenly it will become SUNNY at, say, 2:30 in the afternoon on a Sunday.

So I'm on the couch, all hunkered down in a stupor, awashed in glorious rays of sunshine, and I am feeling like I really, really wasted the day. Like I should be out biking in the mountains or something.

It was raining for months and months on end!!!!!

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 04/18/11 03:30 PM
Had a wonderful birthday, mostly because of Mrs. Hold. She very much tried to show that she loves me in ways that speak to me.

Dentist appointment went well. No cavities despite not having gone in 10 years. The dentist said I should do commercials for chewing sugerless gum.

The surgical appointment was OK. He scoped and said "I don't see anything. Nothing yet. Oh, THERE it is." Too big to band, so either the cortisone shrinks it or I am in for some simple surgery but a very painful recovery. Oh well, at my age it could be much worse.

Dinner with my parents and sister was great, as was the rest of the weekend with them in NYC.

As for the gym, I have been too anemic to go. Now that the iron pills have that controlled, I am back on the exercise bike. I will eventually get back to the gym. Just need to get the surgery behind me (pun intended) first.

Hope everyone had a great weekend.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 04/19/11 12:02 PM
Happy Belated Birthday, and Happy Passover!
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 04/20/11 08:11 PM
Glad to hear you had a wonderful birthday, Hold!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 04/25/11 01:11 PM
Nice weekend at family gathering. Kids stayed with one of my cousins and his kids. Mrs. Hold and I at a hotel. No cuddling. No kissing. No sex.

Everyone was very impressed with our kids. S16 is the oldest of his generation, so all look up to him. He agreed to help autistic cousin read. Got called away for a few minutes. Went looking for the young cousin to read with. The cousin's mother said she was near tears when she saw our son go looking for hers, who is often an outcast. D14 is the oldest girl. She spent one morning with the "3 musketeers" (girls age 4, 5 and 7) trailing her every step. They said they loved her metallic nail polish. So Mrs. Hold and D14 took the young girls to the store, bought them all metallic polish, and then D14 painted all their nails while they watched Disney Channel. The girls and their moms (2 more cousins) were thrilled that big counsin D14 spent so much time with them. I am getting what I signed up for. Could be much worse.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/12/11 09:21 PM
Surgery tomorrow. Wish me luck.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 05/12/11 09:47 PM
Hope it goes well
Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 05/13/11 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am getting what I signed up for.

What was that again?

Refresh my memory. S'il vous plait.

Posted By: CWMI Re: Hi From STIM - 05/13/11 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Surgery tomorrow. Wish me luck.

I will pray you get what you signed up for. ;p

Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 05/13/11 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am getting what I signed up for.

What was that again?

I was wondering that too... hate that I missed that line when you originally posted it, and given my poor mental state (totally spewing on other people's threads-why am I so wound up today?) I couldn't tell if this was a bad thing (how most people use the phrase) or a good thing (you're putting up with Mrs Hold for sake of the kids and this kind of great day is exactly why).

One other comment I wanted to make is that it really speaks highly of you, Hold, that your kids are such a joy to others in spite of the difficulties you and Mrs Hold are having. Just in case you ever feel like you are not as successful as you want to be, it appears to me that you are quite successful at parenting :-)

Take care,

DTC
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/16/11 01:43 PM
Thanks to everyone for your concern.

Unfortunately, I was too anemic for surgery Friday. So they admitted me to the hospital where I sucked down 3 units of blood. Made me thankful that I had "paid it forward" by donating over 2 gallons in the past. They got my blood count back above 30 (40+ is normal) from 23. The nurses couldn't believe I was walking upright at 23.

I am back in the office today. Hopefully we can do the surgery this coming Friday. I will do my best not to bleed between now and then.

Mrs. Hold was very supportive Friday and Saturday. She does care very much, even if she cannot show it the way I would prefer.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 05/16/11 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold was very supportive Friday and Saturday. She does care very much, even if she cannot show it the way I would prefer.

:-)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/16/11 03:34 PM
Ugh, doc is not doing surgery Friday. He wants to do it Wednesday. Darn darn darn darn darn.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/20/11 03:57 PM
I was about to post this on the Grey Divorce thread, when I realized it was far too self-centered to go there, and belongs here.

MelodyLane asked whether my wife understands POJA.

My wife knows all about MB. She simply refuses to implement it. Same as me. I am no more willing to clean up my side of the street than she hers.

I know what you mean about relative effort. I hate my job and every day it is like pulling teeth to motivate myself to do any task. Still, while in the long term it would be much less effort to have I job I loved (assuming such a thing exists), I am not willing to put in the extra effort in the short term to transition to a job I like more than this one.

Same with marriage. I am willing to accept everyone's word that a happy marriage requires less effort than an unhappy one. Still, Withdrawal requires less effort than the Conflict required to return to Intimacy. I am not willing to make the effort required during Conflict. No matter how wonderful the eventual payoff might be.

Years ago our unhappy marriage required effort on my part. Because when Mrs. Hold said "no", I continued to seek ways to get my needs filled. I struggled against the "no". Now it is not nearly so difficult, because I have given up. I rarely ask if Mrs. Hold is willing to meet my needs. And I don't get upset if she says no. I accept the answer and go back to doing whatever coping / medicating activity I was doing. Hardly any effort is required since I gave up.

These days it is Mrs. Hold who tends to offer to meet my needs (not THAT need, but the ones that are les important to me - like RC). She doesn't like that I have given up on living and have stopped working toward any goals. Because she sees that my passivity interferes with her achieving her goals. She tries to entice me back into enjoying recreational activities, in the hope that she can inspire me to "get back in the game".

But I have become immune to her blandishments. Now that I am physically incapable of engaging in the activity which for so long was my obsessive goal, I no longer want anything from her. In fact, I would rather swim in burning acid than accept need-meeting from her, and feel ashamed and angry on those occassions when I weaken and allow her to do so.

The surgery is scheduled for next Friday. Monday they test my blood to see if I need any more transfusions. Perhaps when I have a full complement of red cells I will feel differently. I doubt it. This bitterness is now branded on my soul. Nothing would suit me better than if the Rapture actually occurs tomorrow. Not that I expect to be taken. But that would mean only 150 days left before I get to go where I belong.
Posted By: NeedChange1 Re: Hi From STIM - 05/20/11 05:01 PM
holdingontoit,
sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time. Don't give up. Where in Ct. are you?
Posted By: Issachar Re: Hi From STIM - 05/20/11 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Now it is not nearly so difficult, because I have given up. I rarely ask if Mrs. Hold is willing to meet my needs. And I don't get upset if she says no. I accept the answer and go back to doing whatever coping / medicating activity I was doing. Hardly any effort is required since I gave up.
Yeah. I've done a fair bit of long-term coping and medicating too. Recently I've grown just as tired of coping, and treading water, as I am tired of anything else, and that has stirred me to make some effort again. Because why not? Being an island unto myself hasn't been satisfying. Might as well do the things I know I *should* do, even if I'm not really looking to W as a source of happiness at this point.

(It helps a bit that I know my attitude is ridiculous. Yeah, there's been a lot of bitterness and disappointment in the past, but come on Iss, you are not exactly Ethan Frome.)

Quote
In fact, I would rather swim in burning acid than accept need-meeting from her, and feel ashamed and angry on those occasions when I weaken and allow her to do so.
Sucks when refusing an olive branch becomes a point of principle. But I pretty much know what you mean, although frankly I'll pass on the acid vat. That picture just breaks the whole nice "aloof tragic hero" thing I've got going on. A tragic hero that jumps into a pool of acid no longer excites my admiration. Instead I'm yelling at him: Dude, what the heck?!?!?!! smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/20/11 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Issachar
I pretty much know what you mean, although frankly I'll pass on the acid vat. That picture just breaks the whole nice "aloof tragic hero" thing I've got going on. A tragic hero that jumps into a pool of acid no longer excites my admiration. Instead I'm yelling at him: Dude, what the heck?!?!?!! smile

Yes, well, I have given up the facade of being the tragic hero. I am now the villain in our story. Mrs. Hold has lost weight, gone back to school, gotten 2 jobs, and tried to be more pleasant more of the time. And I have turned my back on her. I behave as if I don't want her love. We all know that, deep down, I do. But at this point I am not willing to admit that. I am going to be spiteful and petty and self-destructive. Because I can do that on my own. I am not willing to open the door and allow her back in. I am too afraid. No matter how well she treats me. I still don't trust her. That is on me.
Posted By: *^aeri^* Re: Hi From STIM - 05/22/11 02:00 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has been asked already...

Now that she's tried (and succeeded for the most part) in meeting your needs, do you ever wonder if she'll leave you? If she does, what's your plan?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 05/22/11 02:26 PM
Aeri, she hasn't. He wants a sexlife, she wants no part of that. So his #1 need will always go unfulfilled
Posted By: *^aeri^* Re: Hi From STIM - 05/22/11 10:50 PM
I have to disagree, Kilted...Hold said that even if she offered him sex, he would turn her away.

I know HOTI's story and I remember when he NEEDED her to get a job and he NEEDED her to lose weight--seems that she's hitting her targets and he's just finding another reason not to get close to her.

Regardless, in her mind, she feels that she's met his needs--what if she finds a richer man who can get along with her and she dumps him?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/23/11 01:40 PM
Old friends from summer camp 30 years ago contacted her over the weekend on Facebook. She kissed some of the guys back then. I told her under no circumstances was she to speak to them or meet them without me present. She said I was being silly. I told her that a camp reunion would bring back memories of a simpler time when she did not have kids college and bills and responsibilities and that it might be intoxicating to relive those memories. So I need to be there with her. She said the guys I kissed back then are married now and have kids. I said plenty of married guys with kids have affairs. I told her "I want to be clear so there is no misunderstanding. I am against you contacting anyone from camp without me present. Don't tell yourself 'he won't care if I just ____'. There is no 'just _____'. I care about everything." Must have gotten through because she hugged me. And you all know how rare hugs are in our marriage.

I am well aware that aeri is correct. Mrs. Hold might well leave me. I don't actually want her to. But I am not willing to go "all in", either. We all know I am a total wimp. I talk a big game of wanting to defend my territory. But we all know if another guy showed up and Mrs. Hold seemed interested in him, I would not fight. I would fold. Always have. Always will.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 05/23/11 02:13 PM
Wow, hold, I am really impressed that you stood up for your marriage in that way. It sounds like you really endeared her by doing it, too. Way to go!
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 05/25/11 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I am against you contacting anyone from camp without me present. Don't tell yourself 'he won't care if I just ____'. There is no 'just _____'. I care about everything." Must have gotten through because she hugged me. And you all know how rare hugs are in our marriage.

Hold, this is HUGE! you keep saying you've given up, but every couple of weeks when I get back here, I see a part of you that (however small it might be, lol) is still fighting ;-)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/25/11 07:20 PM
Thanks for the vote of support, but it is not huge.

The problem in my life these days is not Mrs. Hold. It is me. I have in fact given up on working toward happiness. Or any other goal. I am just drifting along waiting to die. Not trying to get ahead at work. Not trying to reconcile with Mrs. Hold. Not pursuing friendships to enrich my life. Just muddling through at work each day waiting to get home and anesthatize myself with computer games until I go to bed and then get up and repeat the cycle.

I didn't say those things because I care about our marriage. I said those things out of fear. I know I am not meeting Mrs. Hold's needs. I know she is therefor vulnerable to an affair. I know I would feel pain if she had an affair. So I said what I needed to say to help reduce the chance that she will pursue the affair. But that doesn't mean I am willing to make the changes required to meet her needs. I am not.

Forget the ECT. I just want to be put down.
Posted By: Cypress Re: Hi From STIM - 05/25/11 07:46 PM
Could you be struggling with depression?
Posted By: kilted_thrower Re: Hi From STIM - 05/25/11 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
I know I am not meeting Mrs. Hold's needs. I know she is therefor vulnerable to an affair.

Vulnerable and willing to engage in are two way different things. Dr. Harley believes we're all wired for an affair whether needs are met or not. However, regardless if we getting needs met or not, we are still responsible in whether we engage in affair activities or not.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 05/25/11 11:01 PM
Yes, you are correct that in the end it is her choice. Still, it is possible that words might impact her choice. If she thinks that I won't mind because I don't care much about her, she might be more likely to give in to temptation. If I make it clear that I do mind very much, it might strengthen her resolve. And speaking merely theoretically, it is possible the use of phrases such as going to the firearms store, cutting off pieces of a man's anatomy in thin slices and then feeding them to his affair partner, or poison tipped bamboo spikes, might cause a woman to be more inclined to resist the urge. Not that anyone would act on such primitive urges. But as compared to "when I think of you cheating, I think of locking myself in a dark room and crying all day", I think more colorful imagery might help convey the depths of one's feelings.
Posted By: coloradogirl Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/11 12:25 AM
Hold:

I heard a song this morning that I think may apply to you:

Honey come home
my stubborn ways are behind me now
They�re behind me now
And there�s nothing here
that will not break down
like you never did

The kids say hello
to us in our separate homes
Darling please come home
I�ve cleaned out the fridge
Wiped the counters off
and put away my clothes

Do you remember every block
Every minute of every walk we used to take
We were young so many years ago

And I think of all this time
that we have wasted with all our fighting and I cry
Just want to die with the one I love beside me

�Someday,� you said,
someday you will miss my head
lying next to yours
in our marriage bed

Do you remember every block
Every minute of every walk we used to take
We were young so many years ago

Oh God I love my vices but they�ve taken me to places
That I never thought I�d go and I am ready to be home
And I think of every spark every whisper in the dark, now it�s time
Just wanna die with the one I love
Just wanna die with the one I love
Just wanna die with the one I love
Just wanna die with the one I love beside me

Love love love

Honey come home



I know that you do not yet have separate households, but I worry that your intellectualizing and sarcasm is ruining your chances for happiness. You are so concerned with defending your ego that you are missing the big picture. You are an important person in your family's life, and you are depriving them of your love. Don't be so judgmental of yourself. Forgive yourself for not being perfect, and it will become easier to see how important you are in their lives.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/26/11 03:22 PM
Thank you for posting to me. I can feel the concern in your words.

I will never forgive myself. And I don't imagine I will ever share my love with my wife. If I did, she might love me back. We can't have that. No, not at all.
Posted By: coloradogirl Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/27/11 01:19 AM
Hold:

What would you say to a friend or brother who had your attitude? Wouldn't you want them to see how good life could be if they would only get out of their own way, soften their heart, and look at the world through new eyes? I'm not sure why your situation speaks to me, but I want you to have an Aha! moment where you see that things can be different for you. I feel like you are standing before the banquet of life, and you are starving. I don't know if you are into spiritual concepts, but I just finished this incredible book, The Mystery of Love, by Marc Gafni. He talks about Eros as the creative principle of life, and how passionate life can be when we engage in it.

I realize that this is probably coming off as preachy, but I don't want you to waste any more time being numb when you could be grateful for all that you have. Guess I better climb down from my soapbox now.
Posted By: maritalbliss Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/29/11 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by coloradogirl
Hold:

What would you say to a friend or brother who had your attitude? Wouldn't you want them to see how good life could be if they would only get out of their own way, soften their heart, and look at the world through new eyes? I'm not sure why your situation speaks to me, but I want you to have an Aha! moment where you see that things can be different for you. I feel like you are standing before the banquet of life, and you are starving. I don't know if you are into spiritual concepts, but I just finished this incredible book, The Mystery of Love, by Marc Gafni. He talks about Eros as the creative principle of life, and how passionate life can be when we engage in it.

I realize that this is probably coming off as preachy, but I don't want you to waste any more time being numb when you could be grateful for all that you have. Guess I better climb down from my soapbox now.
I'm curious about your story, coloradogirl. Care to share it with us?
Posted By: coloradogirl Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/30/11 01:23 AM
My husband and I have been married for 33 years, with a daughter, 29, and a son, 27. When our son graduated from college, we were faced with a stale marriage where we didn't pay attention to each other's ENs. I love self-help books, and I ran across HNHN in a bookstore. What a revelation! I was so thrilled to read about an action plan to revive your marriage. I was discouraged by the break up of so many of my friends' marriages, and I wanted to find a way to revive the passion that we used to have. I see too many people thinking that they married the wrong person, but they just need to change their idea about how love works. We watch romantic movies and obsess on the initial feelings of falling in love, but we do not have a clue about how to keep love alive when the reality of daily problems overwhelms us.

I am a victim of negative thinking, so I was moved to comment on Holdingontoit's thread. When I finally realized that I did not have to listen to the chattering monkey in my head, life opened up for me, and I wanted to share this with others suffering from critical thoughts of themselves. When you see that there is another story to be told about the same facts, you can stop wishing that life conform to your expectations.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/04/11 04:41 PM
As far as we know, the surgery went well. Recovery is very painful. Have not been back to the office yet, except to stop in and pick up mail Friday. Hope to get back to work Monday. Best wishes to all.

Coloradogirl, thank you for the warm thoughts. I wish you and your husband many years of marital joy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/07/11 01:50 PM
Back in the office. Still hurts but on the mend.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/08/11 12:28 PM
Hold,
I missed it, or maybe you did not say: what kind of surgery? Serious?
Posted By: Issachar Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/27/11 02:24 PM
Hold, what's going on with you these days?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 06/27/11 06:56 PM
Thanks for asking. Physically things are going well. No bleeding and red cell levels are up almost to normal. I am cleared to exercise. All I could ask for.

Kids are great. D14's small routine came in top quarter in age group nationals. S16 drove himself to SAT prep class this morning in Mrs. Hold's car (since she is out of town with D14 at nationals). He is off the soccer field now. Then summer league basketball game tonight. About as good as life gets for a 16 year old.

As for me, life and marriage are SOSO. I am the problem.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 09/01/11 01:41 PM
Mrs. Hold has been more affectionate lately. Very nice. And yes, I told her so. D14 gave me a hug one day. Mrs. Hold asked why she didn't also get a hug. D14: "Mom, you are a cat who doesn't like hugs". I said "but there is always room for more member of the puppy team. Would you like a hug?" Then D14 gave her a hug. Then I gave her a hug. Mrs. Hold seemed pleased. She used to roll her eyes and pull away when either of us tried to hug her.

Then on Monday while we were recovering from the hurricane, Mrs. Hold kissed me. She said she was sorry she turned her head away from me the last time we had sex. She said she knows I like to kiss and wives should want to kiss their husbands. Then she apologized for not being "into it" when we had sex. I told her I appreciated her being there for me even though she wasn't into it.

Wow, two apologies from Mrs. Hold in one day!
Posted By: Issachar Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 09/01/11 03:36 PM
I'm really glad to hear that, and also glad that you didn't add "but all that means nothing because I am a self-defeating loser" or something along those lines. Hope you're not quietly stewing in such thoughts. If nice things like this happen, go ahead and enjoy them. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 09/06/11 01:32 PM
Do not worry that Armageddon is coming. The world has returned to normal. Went to a wedding over the weekend. Mrs. Hold held me at arms length throughout the slow dancing. Then this morning after the kids left for school I snuggled close to her and she complained that I was interfering with her relaxation before she had to leave (over an hour later) for spin class.
Posted By: 213601 Re: Hi From STIM - 10/19/11 09:39 PM
HI LA

Did you write that book yet? smile
I would like a copy smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/11 06:27 PM
Just wanted to poke my head in and say that after 19+ years of being disappointed, and 14+ years of openly fighting with Mrs. Hold, we have finally gotten our sex life to a place where I am comfortable with it. Never thought we would get here. Not sure how we did. But I appreciate all the support I received over the years here at MB.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/11 06:54 PM
That is great, hold!! hurray
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/11 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That is great, hold!! hurray

Wow! yes it is. Good for you both.
Posted By: markos Re: Hi From STIM - 12/15/11 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by holdingontoit
Just wanted to poke my head in and say that after 19+ years of being disappointed, and 14+ years of openly fighting with Mrs. Hold, we have finally gotten our sex life to a place where I am comfortable with it. Never thought we would get here. Not sure how we did. But I appreciate all the support I received over the years here at MB.

Congratulations, hold! This is great to hear!
Posted By: JustPassingThru Re: Hi From STIM - 12/16/11 03:10 AM
Hold, I have seen you on SO many boards I lurk or post on. You're like a constant in my online universe.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! This is wonderful news.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/27/11 02:56 PM
Well of course neither of us can handle success. We have not had sex since the last great session. This morning was our typical dance of disaster. Neither wanting to make themselves vulnerable. So we hurt each other instead. So you don't have to worry about 2012 being the year of the apolcalypse. Everything back to normal. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 12/28/11 12:34 AM
Hold, have you heard of subtlety?
Maybe try a radar test first to see whether your target is in range.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Hi From STIM - 12/29/11 03:00 PM
Jack, how much more subtle can you be than getting up to pee, brushing your teeth, then getting back into bed? I didn't ask. I didn't move closer to her. I just got back into bed and lay about 2 feet away from her on my side. I didn't move. Before I could do anything, she pre-empted and said "I have to be at my exercise class in an hour, so we don't have time for anything." That was Tuesday.

Then this morning she turned me down for our standing Thursday date. Then she refused to give me a hug or kiss goodbye when I was ready to leave for work. Then she got angry when I gave her a forlorn grin and said "it is what it is". She was angry that I made her feel guilty. Total BS. I treat her well. She turned me down. She darn well should feel guilty. Not my fault. Hers. She made this bed. Not my fault she doesn't like the feel of these sheets. She picked them out.
Posted By: Jackblack Re: Hi From STIM - 01/01/12 10:32 PM
Hold, have you considered that it may be possible, that you do not handle rejection quite so well?

If history tells us anything, you will have another chance.
Posted By: ReplaceResent Re: Hi From STIM - 06/20/12 05:40 AM
Hold is a spittin image of me! smile Hold I'm on your side. She "sensed" you wanted sex and made a point to block it. That feels like [censored] and i don't blame you. It is not a personality flaw to not handle rejection well. The spouse should know this and minimize doing things that hurt his ego. It is a lot easier than telling Hold to "not" feel things you know?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Hi From STIM - 06/21/12 12:16 PM
Maybe Hold will come back for an update, Hill, I think you'll be encouraged how things have changed there!
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Hi From STIM - 02/13/13 12:49 AM
Hold?? how are you doing??
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