My wife and I don't communicate well. My upbringing was great, hers was very disfunctional. Her Dad left her Mom because she is quite disturbing and probably needs meds. We've been married 8 years and have 3 kids, she is a good mom and I'm a great dad. When it comes to any "issues" she refuses to deal with them which she clearly learned growing up. I prefer to discuss them and try to make them better. I used the title "hopeless" because I truly am out of hope that anything will ever change. I don't feel loved, I feel no intimacy, she just now explained she is irritated with me most of the time but can't tell me why. I came out in 2011 with the attitude that I don't care if she doesn't want to try, that I will rise above and do things to make it better. I get no return on this investment however and I've given up. I need some serious brainstorming with all of you. I need to read and learn, read and learn. I'm in love with my family but very unhappy in my relationship with my wife and feel a huge empty hole.
Hi Hilltopper, welcome to Marriage Builders. Many of us have transformed our marriages into romantic, happy marriages by using this program. It sounds like communication is not the main problem, but that you have both fallen out of love. If you can fall in love again, the communication problem will be much easier to resolve.
Start here:
How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
And then pick up this book:
Fall in Love, Stay in Love That is where I would start. If you find you can't do this without professional help, the Harleys have a counseling center that many of us have used with great results [they can do in 2-3 sessions what other counselors can never do - they are completely different from traditional marriage counselor] or the online program. In the latter, they send you all the materials, assign you a marriage coach who oversees your weekly progress and guides your lesson plans.
The fastest, most effective way to fall in love again is to schedule 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs of affection, recreational companionship, conversation and sexual fulfillment. Here is an article about it:
Policy of Undivided Attention Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other
So after thirteen days into 2011 you throw in the towel?
Follow melodylane's it will work but you can't guit after thirteen days.
So after thirteen days into 2011 you throw in the towel?
Follow melodylane's it will work but you can't guit after thirteen days.
That's what people do with the rest of their resolutions, lol.
It takes 21 days to form (or break) a habit, so you've got to get back to work! For something as big as MARRIAGE, I'd work at it a lot longer than that.
Thanks for the notes and suggestions. I'm not giving up, just regrouping and preparing. I need more knowledge to overcome this. You see my wife simply rejects anything she doesn't want to deal with. Because her mother abused her verbally her entire life, her self-esteem is incredibly fragile. As a defense mechanism, rather than accept shortcomings, mistakes, or deal with anything which make her feel bad about herself, she either rejects it entirely or makes an excuse to get her off the hook! Had a fight this morning before I left for work. She told me she hated me which is pretty common. This is a never ending story of repetition. I shut my mouth and just deal with what has become a dead marriage, we avoid conflict, and things at least don't rise to fighting and we can coexist. If I stick up for myself or suggest we work on our marriage it is met with antagonism and ultimately leads to a fight like we had this morning. I left the house in a daze, hurt and lost, then pulled over and sent her a text suggesting she go to marriagebuilders.com right now before she gets busy. Told her there is lots of similar stories from other people and free info and courses. I said a quick prayer that God helps her to make the right decision and not reject it yet again. I haven't gotten a text back that she did this. It will likely not ever be mentioned again by her. She'll simply reject it is my guess. How far does this rejection and excuse behavior go? Oh, you wouldn't believe it. It permeates virtually anything and everything from big things to completely insignificant things. In case you are wondering, her entire family follows the same behavior. Its always someone else's fault so I don't blame her for behaving this way, but I'm desperate for it to change or at least move in the right direction. I'd love to hear some stories from some others that can relate or have dealt with anything similar because I'm way over matched right now. I simply don't know what to say or do anymore and have ZERO control over any outcomes.
Thanks for the notes and suggestions. I'm not giving up, just regrouping and preparing. I need more knowledge to overcome this.
You are absolutely right. I would get that book MelodyLane recommended as soon as possible and in the meantime try to start reading every article you can on this website. Have you read the Basic Concepts, yet?
http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=pop4
Just finished Basic Concepts, forwarded it to my wife. I also ordered 3 of the books to arrive within 3-5 days. I'm a common sense guy, most of this makes perfect sense to me. I do have concerns about both of our ability to follow instructions and fill out pages on the workbook, but I'll cross that bridge when we get there. I'm an info hound, so reading is what I'll be doing a lot of. My wife said she "scanned" the site but then had to deal with the kids. At least she is curious. I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
Hilltopper1972,
maybe you can get her to agree to read one story together a day and then have a 10 minute discussion about the problems and solutions provided.
start small...........I don't know what else to offer other than if you could convince her that you are not her mother and you have no intention of treating her the way she did and that she doesn't need to just check out when things get a little difficult.
good luck, hang in there.
She said she replied to my emotional needs email. I never got it, it magically got lost. I asked her to type again which she is now. Stay tuned.
You see my wife simply rejects anything she doesn't want to deal with. Because her mother abused her verbally her entire life, her self-esteem is incredibly fragile. As a defense mechanism, rather than accept shortcomings, mistakes, or deal with anything which make her feel bad about herself, she either rejects it entirely or makes an excuse to get her off the hook!
Don't most people reject anything that makes her feel bad about themselves?? I SURE WOULD!! You are not likely to attract her to anything if you approach her like that. Who wants to be around someone who makes them FEEL BAD?
Had a fight this morning before I left for work. She told me she hated me which is pretty common. This is a never ending story of repetition.
I would stop fighting with her; it takes 2 people to fight. Additionally, I would pick up the book LOVEBUSTERS and start there instead of Fall in Love, Stay in Love. If you are fighting with your wife, you aren't going to interest her in recovering your marriage.
Also, I would stop bringing up her family since it is irrelevant to the present. If you can stop fighting with her and attract her to your marriage, she can learn to overcome her verbal abuse.
You are right about learning this program inside and out. But also consider getting some of the services here if you can't get anywhere with that. Steve Harley is often very effective in motivating a reluctant spouse to get on board.
I'm an info hound, so reading is what I'll be doing a lot of. My wife said she "scanned" the site but then had to deal with the kids. At least she is curious. I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
You are on the right track!!
So I'm back again after a couple of months. I bought 3 Harley books and finished one of them. I have put forth a decent effort with implementing some of the basic concepts with some success. I don't think my wife and I have any "major" issues in terms of how we want to raise our kids, etc. I think we let the "disrespectful judgements" and "selfish demands" get us in a bad place. I've asked my wife no less than 8 times to read just the Basic Concepts and be a part of this with me. She claimed today after me pleading that she read two paragraphs. I'm not judging or trying to recruit you to my side when I say the following. My wife grew up with a Mother who always told her she wasn't good enough. Her Mom uses judgements and demands with her husband quite literally 5 times an hour. This is all my wife knows. I don't like conflict but my wife seems to think it is quite normal. Its not all her fault but the pattern usually involves her jabbing me a few to several times a day until I get fed up and "fight back". When we get to this point I have no clue how to handle it. I feel a great inequity right now in terms of feeding emotional needs. I'm not the best at it but I try and she has admitted she sees my effort. We have a third child which is her typical excuse for anything including but not limited to "her mood", "her annoyance with me", "sex", etc. The "Great Blamer" as I call her never has to take fault for anything, quite literally anything! If it doesn't make her feel good, whatever it is, she rejects it, avoids it, won't admit it, or quite literally blames someone else for it. My kids here it and I've heard them doing the same thing. My four year old stepped on a toy and hurt his foot because he wasn't paying attention and said, "Taylor put the toy there and I hurt my foot!" I quickly told him "We don't blame other people for mistakes we ourselves make son." I need some perspective from some of you with more experience that I. I'm not desperate or giving up, I'm just frustrated and need to learn more.
Melody,
By the way there a couple of things that I could be wrong about but I thought I'd tell you how I see them. Know I don't think most people or all people reject all things that make them feel bad, I sure don't. In addition whoever said that I make her feel bad? It happens at times but most of the time I have nothing to do with it. She feels bad all on her own.
In regards to her relationship with her family(mother), how is this irrelevant to the present? If this is a common cause of how she deals with her/our problems which I've read so much about, how can it possibly be something that I/We just ignore?
Don't try to educate your spouse. That is a love buster on your part. Implement the MB system yourself as an example of how spouses can treat each other more lovingly. Let your example (not your words) show her the way.
Then call the Harleys. Let them do the educating and let them motivate her to take part in the program. They are more skilled and experienced at motivating reluctant spouses than you are. And when they educate her, it isn't withdrawing units from your account in her love bank.
Melody,
By the way there a couple of things that I could be wrong about but I thought I'd tell you how I see them. Know I don't think most people or all people reject all things that make them feel bad, I sure don't. In addition whoever said that I make her feel bad? It happens at times but most of the time I have nothing to do with it. She feels bad all on her own.
I was responding to your comment that she rejects anything that makes her feel bad. That is a natural reaction and if you ARE doing something to make her feel bad, I would stop that.
In regards to her relationship with her family(mother), how is this irrelevant to the present? If this is a common cause of how she deals with her/our problems which I've read so much about, how can it possibly be something that I/We just ignore?
I am not saying to ignore her behavior, but to ignore her
childhood. It has nothing to do with the present. I view this as a distraction because it is irrelevant to the present. Sure, maybe she picked up those traits from her mother, but so what? The solution is to change present behavior.
I agree with holdingon and think you would greatly benefit from signing up for the Marriage Builders program because they will assign you a coach who will work with your wife and guide your weekly lessons. Let THEM work on her instead of you. You would also have daily access to Dr Harley. They are trained coaches how know how to get people on board and teach them new behaviors. The cost is $995 and many of us have used this program with great success.
Sorry you are here but Welcome to Marriage builders.
Your wife sounds alot like mine was when i first tried to introduce her to the concepts and ideas here. MY wife was very reluctant to engage in the material here because it was writen by a "guy". I just vowed to my self to learn what emotional needs my wife had and learned to avoid the love busters and actually listen to her complaints.
Before my wife filled out the emotional needs questionaire (you can find that on the site here and print it out) I used her complaints as the answers for her questionaire. As I learned to be a better husband by listening to her complaints without getting defensive it began to work. By filling her needs for many months without expecting anyhting in return she began to see my efforts were in her best interest .. and not just some sort of manipulation to get my needs met. After a while it would back fire and we would be back to day one again tho. My wife and I then descided to go to marriage counseling. After we seen the bill from one session .. that sparked my wifes attention to look at other options. I then showed her I had his needs her needs book and had printed off some of the concepts here for her to read but began with the POJA. My wie at the time had descided that she had spent too much time on the PC and didnt ever visit the links i sent her. IT was only after i presented the POJA in paper over breakfast that she actually put any consideration to reading it. Once she did ... coupled with the fact that if we both worked on MB together, we would not need any more MC. We did 3 more sessions of MC before realizing it did us no good, other than rehash bad emotions and leave the MC in a worse state than when we went in, and convinced my wife that MB was the route to take. It took a while to prove to her that my actions were not manipulative to get my needs met right away .. it was only after i had done the change to better myself and make me be loveable to her that she came around and began to meet my needs almost effortlessly becasue i was able to learn how to plug the holes in our love banks and fill them up.
You can do this ... and it will not be an easy fix .. but SHOW her how its improving you and step up to the plate and make your self be more desireable. EXample. I started working out and when i got home I would start on domestice duties right after dinner and take my shirt off when i did dishes .. my excuse was i didnt like to get my shirt wet. She would exclaim "nothing is sexier than a man doing dishes with his shirt off!" and smack my butt and walk away with a grin on her face.
Keep at it ... become a better man and husband and dad for YOU and your family. YOur wife will notice .. maybe not today .. or tomorrow .. but in a few weeks she will see the consistancy of your efforts and fall deeply back in love with you. Mine has.
Wow MrNiceGuy, I really needed to read this post from you. I have taken the approach of fulfilling her emotional needs and not expecting anything in return which is very tough. I see a huge inequity and it is hard to rise above it and do it anyways. I do the dishes every night, feed the kids breakfast, cook dinner for her and the kids. I folded whatever clothes were in the laundry this morning which was something I normally don't do, hope she notices. I also folded the laundry yesterday and put sheets on the bed. She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby. I will make a commitment to keep fulfilling her needs even if she won't fulfill mine and take it for what it is. I hate to get frustrated and then "strike back" because you are right it literally can take 15 love units and drop it to 0 in 5 seconds flat.
It is just so tough(now I'm just venting) because of who she is. Reject reality. Make decisions and come to conclusions based on irrational thought. Have "conditions" for our marriage that must be met or there will be trouble. I feel like I have to achieve perfection to get anywhere and that scares the daylights out of me. It is a strange place to be. By the way my wife has it out for a lot of people these days so I know it is not just me. I love her though, and want to be fulfilled. I don't like this conflict.
Great Job Hilltoper! Keep that attitude going! ... IT will be difficult for the first while as you change your old habits into new habits until it becomes effortless and a normal part of your daily routine. Having a 4month old baby is very time consuming and very hard on your wife and also your UA time. It will get better though as your child grows. ALso since it was not that long ago that you had your child .. your wife may be depressed somewhat. ALOT of women go though that right after child birth. Her body is adjusting and may take a while to fully recouperate and for her to feel "normal" again. I am not sure if your interested or not .. but you could see if your wife was interested in a natural herb supplement that balances horomones. Its very effective. Both my wife and I use it and it has made a signifigant difference in my wifes energy levels and her "attitudes" lol. ITs called Macaroot. Check it out. (
www.macaroot.com www.macasex.com
www.macatalk.com ) IT takes aprox 5 days to kick in and its very safe to use (safe for breast feeding etc). I am in no affiliation of the product .. I am just a happy customer and so is my wife! So I tell everyone about it
if you do get it .. try to get it in pill form.. its much better than the starch form and works like a charm on horomones! But dont take my word for it .. just do some research then check out your local health food store.
Remember to be consistant in your efforts ... and do not let your "taker" be in charge for a while ... even if it starts to swell up and you begin to feel like your needs are not being met and your "taker" suggests you get aggitated or argue about it. If you end up in an argument of some sorts you will be back at day one and your wife will think it was manipulation the entire time and youll be back at day one. You have to change for YOU not her.
If you have the books "His needs her needs FOR PARENTS" ...and "love busters" .. possibly set aside some time with your wife to take turns reading it out loud together sitting in bed before you go to sleep at night. My wife loved that I would read out loud to her and as she listened .. we would stop and discuss it once in while. This was great bonding time.
Again .. keep up the good work .. and come vent here.
MnG
Thanks for the words and support! I got home let my wife go on a run while made dinner and tended to all three. You know what? She doesn't notice squat! Bought her three small gifts last week, nothing. I'm feeling pretty selfish right now because the door keeps getting slammed in my face. She won't read anything, I have all threeharley books and I'm on number two now. She has every excuse in the fir everything! I'm sitting here in front of the grocery store, angry, hurt, and I don't want to go home. I'll go home and she'll just insult me again, oblivious and seemingly impervious to everything! Geez, please help me get this woman to see or change even a tad!
I forget stuff quite easily. My forgetfulness = annoying habit, I know. She wanted me to go pick up a coupon for $10 at her Dad's house on the way. I totally forgot. I guess I was so focused on making sure I got every single item on the grocery list I forgot that part! I'm quite literally terrified at stuff like this. I can't make decisions anymore because she'll criticize it. So she called me on it of course, wasn't angry on the outside, but I know her and she was "irritated" at me. I can't go a day without messing up so I don't know what to do. Her annoying habits annoy me sure, but I don't hold it against her. That is just who she is. She loses everything, hoards stuff in the garage to the point where we can't park our cars in there. She threatens the kids with the ole "Do you want us not to go to the party?", even though they know she never means it. I guess I just don't get this whole game because that is just not me. Anyone else not really get to upset about annoying habits or things?
Should I be terrified to do things like shop for groceries for fear of making mistakes?
I forget stuff quite easily. My forgetfulness = annoying habit, I know. She wanted me to go pick up a coupon for $10 at her Dad's house on the way. I totally forgot. I guess I was so focused on making sure I got every single item on the grocery list I forgot that part! I'm quite literally terrified at stuff like this.
Hilltopper, as you can see, this approach is not creating love in your marriage. It is creating RESENTMENT on your part which will further erode the love in your marriage. The problem is not that you don't do enough housework, but that your wife is a freeloader in marriage and has no motivation to change. If you keep up this one sided giving for long, you will grow to hate her. I would try a new approach of radical honesty and tell her how unhappy you are. She is abusive and thoughtless and is destroying your marriage. She is killing your feeligs for her. Does she know that?
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
Should I be terrified to do things like shop for groceries for fear of making mistakes?
Have you asked her this? Hilltopper, I know a lot of men who get lost in the produce aisle of a grocery store because they
never do the shopping. I think that fact that you do is great! So you forget the bread? You can pick it up tomorrow! You forgot the milk? The kids won't die overnight from calcium deficiency! This is really not a big thing in the grand scheme. But it IS a sign that there is a bigger issue than forgetting something.
I grabbed this from another one of your posts, because I think it may play into things:
She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby.
How much time do the two of you spend together
alone? How often do you take the kids to grandma's for the weekend, or even hire a babysitter so you can get out of the house for a few hours?
I don't think this has anything to do with her childhood, or her mother, or anything like that. I suspect your wife is tired and resents just about everything in her life right now.
Can you come up with some ways to spend some time together alone?
Warning: you need to understand that you'll probably be the only one actively working on this until she starts seeing the benefit of getting away from the kids. Also, she may be initially resistant to doing so. Work on it anyway.
Keep a todo list. For those of us that have a million things going on, we just have to keep a check list or we forget.
You can always put your foot down on the abuse. When she starts to insult you, call her on it. Tell her you won't tolerate being spoken to like a child in a disrespectful manner.
Hilltopper,
The advice you are getting is spot-on, especially kilted_thrower's short but simple message: keep a todo list, and don't accept the abuse.
You should not have to be afraid of making a mistake while grocery shopping. It is okay for your wife to be bothered if you forget something at the store; it is not okay for your wife to punish you for it! If you make a mistake, simply say "I'm sorry." Don't add any explanations. If she becomes demanding, disrespectful, sarcastic, angry, abusive, or hysterical, just back off and remove yourself from the situation in an appropriate way.
Later, tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Do not succomb to the temptation to become demanding, disrespectful, or have an angry outburst, yourself. It is very hard when you are being abused not to become an abuser yourself. But if you engage in any of these behaviors, it will affect her emotions in such a way that it will become LESS likely that she will ever be motivated to change. You have got to learn how to NEVER react with one of these behaviors, no matter what she does.
Don't harp constantly on the behavior, but let her know periodically (maybe once a week or so), that the disrespect or angry outbursts or demands are still a problem for you.
Buy the Love Busters book and memorize it! You need to become a world-class expert in identifying Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts from yourself and from your wife. You can practice here by reading other threads.
Also, start practicing refraining from disrespectful judgments yourself when you post here. If you will strive to keep your writing free of disrespectful judgments, it will help change your thinking.
I commend you as a husband for doing the grocery shopping. A lot of men would respond to abuse for making grocery mistakes by saying "I have a simple solution. I'll just not do the shopping any more."
Any chance of starting to make some time together? Most women respond well when a husband puts forth the effort to plan an event together, make auxiliary arrangements like childcare so she doesn't have to, etc. The Undivided Attention time component of this program is nonnegotiable; couples that do well together, whether they do this program or not, are couples that spend at least fifteen hours a week alone together giving each other their undivided attention.
And hilltopper ... it's good to see you back!
She's not lazy by any means, there is just a lot to do and we have a four month old baby.
I know the feeling. We have a four month old baby, and five other children going up to age 6!
This is definitely a lot of work for my wife just to survive each day, and she rightly wants to have an escape once in awhile.
Dr. Harley says the key is for us to escape TOGETHER. (I need to escape, too.) If we make our escapes TOGETHER, and we spend 15 hours a week escaping together and giving each other our undivided attention, we will fall in LOVE.
Thanks for the words and support! I got home let my wife go on a run while made dinner and tended to all three. You know what? She doesn't notice squat! Bought her three small gifts last week, nothing. I'm feeling pretty selfish right now because the door keeps getting slammed in my face. She won't read anything, I have all threeharley books and I'm on number two now. She has every excuse in the fir everything! I'm sitting here in front of the grocery store, angry, hurt, and I don't want to go home. I'll go home and she'll just insult me again, oblivious and seemingly impervious to everything! Geez, please help me get this woman to see or change even a tad!
A couple of things to keep in mind:
If your wife's Love Bank is in the red (negative), then each deposit you make makes it "less red" but until it gets "into the black" , that is, above zero, you won't see the effects. So since it is below zero your wife will be in the state of Conflict and will be all snippy w/ you.
Make sure the things you are doing are ones that are important to your wife.
**edit**
Melody,
Thanks for the advice. I've wondered how it got to this point. I'm a strong person and yet I've become afraid and timid within this relationship somehow. I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage. What I do need some advice on is how to become stronger without making the situation worse. In other words, I can't follow the Love Bank system if I discontinue trying to meet her emotional needs can I?
One more thing to be very clear. My wife is not lazy at all, in fact she is tireless and does a ton around the house. She gets easily overwhelmed by little things that don't bother me whatsoever. She also tends to "create" work and projects that simply are not necessary which stress her out.
So I feel like I need to toughen up my skin. Let her see that her little insults and slams don't bother me at all? I guess I'm wondering what you are suggesting I try? I know this is a process.
I think for now her own personal time is so hard to come by with the new baby that she values that more than anything. I suggest date nights but she turns them down as excuses. We got massage oils the other day and that night we each gave each other a massage, but since then she has turned down that offer each time as well. I wasn't asking to be intimate, just the massage to let her relax. The lack of intimacy and "date nights" has been a steady decline over the past 3-4 years I'd say. We don't even kiss even when she is in the mood. She keeps saying it is because she is not confident in herself, but it is hard for me to truly know that it isn't just another one of her excuses, you know?
I brought a grocery list, the coupon thing was just an oversight. Believe me I have numerous tools in my life to stay organized and remember things. As far as not accepting the abuse, what does that mean? If I say, "I won't let you speak to me that way", then what? In other words, what good will it do? She doesn't try and tear me down, it is the little disrespectful judgements and selfish demands all day that build up. She is crafty at using them so that they don't really sound like an insult with purpose, but yet we both know they are. Whenever I do call her on it she 100% of the time says, "You are just taking things the wrong way." She says it so much I start to wonder if I am until I reply it in my head and know for sure that they are insults. Are the insults meant to hurt me or rather to make herself feel better?
I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage.
And paradoxically, she will not respect you for letting her do this.
I used to do that with my H. Make little snippy comments here, a couple of snide remarks there - I straightened my butt up when he looked me squarely in the eyes one day and said "I don't deserve to be spoken to like that." HUH?
I respected that.
And yes, I did apologize.
Melody,
Thanks for the advice. I've wondered how it got to this point. I'm a strong person and yet I've become afraid and timid within this relationship somehow.
That's a common response to abusive behavior like Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts.
I let her get to me and she probably instinctively knows I don't like conflict which works to her advantage. What I do need some advice on is how to become stronger without making the situation worse.
Hilltopper, you can learn to quit avoiding conflict when you have some better tools to handle it. Like maritalbliss says, this will result in more respect from your wife.
Conflict alone is not bad in marriage. It's not a problem merely to have different opinions about what fork in the road you should take. It is a problem to take one choice without regard for your spouse's feelings. And it is a problem to use Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, or Angry Outbursts if your spouse doesn't want to go the way you want to go.
But there is a better path of negotiation you can take for every conflict when the two of you pledge to be free of these love busting behaviors.
In other words, I can't follow the Love Bank system if I discontinue trying to meet her emotional needs can I?
Whoa, I hope nobody is suggesting that! You need to continue to try to meet your wife's emotional needs. In fact, you will likely need to learn to do a better job of it. Meeting emotional needs is a complex skill like playing the piano that you can (and should) get better and better at as the years go by.
One more thing to be very clear. My wife is not lazy at all, in fact she is tireless and does a ton around the house.
You made that clear in an earlier message.
She gets easily overwhelmed by little things that don't bother me whatsoever. She also tends to "create" work and projects that simply are not necessary which stress her out.
Okay, men and women are different. In fact, all people are different.
It is okay for her to be bothered by things that do not bother you. If you are not okay with this, you are disrespectfully judging her feelings. You see from the Love Bank model what that will do. It's an important part of this program to learn not to disrespectfully judge her.
Also, you are definitely judging her feelings when you say that the things she is doing are "simply not necessary." She feels that they are necessary; otherwise she would not do them. Knock it off, Hilltopper! If it bothers you for her to do something, tell her so, but don't tell her she is doing things that are not necessary. That is only YOUR opinion that they are not necessary, and her opinion that they are necessary is just as valid as yours!
Let her see that her little insults and slams don't bother me at all?
No, that's ridiculous. They do hurt you, and you need to be honest with her about that. This is what we mean by not tolerating abuse.
I guess I'm wondering what you are suggesting I try? I know this is a process.
Okay, I outlined the suggestion up there for you; do you need more detail? I said nothing like "show her it doesn't hurt you." I said you need to be Radically Honest with your wife and tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Here is my suggestion for what you should do, from above:
Later, tell her that these behaviors (demands, disrespect, anger) are not acceptable to you and are a severe problem, and that you expect her to do something about it. I agree with MelodyLane's recommendation of radical honesty: you need to let your wife know that this is an extreme problem.
Do not succomb to the temptation to become demanding, disrespectful, or have an angry outburst, yourself. It is very hard when you are being abused not to become an abuser yourself. But if you engage in any of these behaviors, it will affect her emotions in such a way that it will become LESS likely that she will ever be motivated to change. You have got to learn how to NEVER react with one of these behaviors, no matter what she does.
Don't harp constantly on the behavior, but let her know periodically (maybe once a week or so), that the disrespect or angry outbursts or demands are still a problem for you.
Buy the Love Busters book and memorize it! You need to become a world-class expert in identifying Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts from yourself and from your wife. You can practice here by reading other threads. smile
Also, start practicing refraining from disrespectful judgments yourself when you post here. If you will strive to keep your writing free of disrespectful judgments, it will help change your thinking.
I think for now her own personal time is so hard to come by with the new baby that she values that more than anything.
That is really common in new mothers. She may need to learn how important a good marriage is for her child's welfare.
I suggest date nights but she turns them down as excuses. ... She keeps saying it is because she is not confident in herself, but it is hard for me to truly know that it isn't just another one of her excuses, you know?
Okay, quit disrespecting her choice to decline your offers as "excuses." You can't read her mind and you shouldn't try to, and she has the right to decline any offer she doesn't like, for any reason.
You'll have to find an offer that she DOES like.
She might like to follow this program, if she found out what was in it for her. So think about what IS in it for her.
I brought a grocery list, the coupon thing was just an oversight. Believe me I have numerous tools in my life to stay organized and remember things. As far as not accepting the abuse, what does that mean? If I say, "I won't let you speak to me that way", then what? In other words, what good will it do?
Well, you have to become willing to back it up.
For starters, when the conversation turns ugly like this, STOP! Try to gently change the subject to something else. If that doesn't work, end the conversation. Go to another room if you have to.
Tell her at calm times what she is doing that offends you. Be honest that you do not like the way she is talking to you. Tell her you need her to stop and you know of a program that can help (Marriage Builders) and tell her what is in this program for her.
She doesn't try and tear me down, it is the little disrespectful judgements and selfish demands all day that build up.
Yes, those hurt terribly. The tiny little drains on your lovebank (or hers!) add up over time. It's the habits that are devastating, more than the one-time events.
She is crafty at using them so that they don't really sound like an insult with purpose, but yet we both know they are.
Whoa! No you don't! You can't read her mind, and proclaiming that you can is a disrespectful judgment. Do not disrespectfully judge her motivations. Do not get into a discussion with her about what she MEANT; that's fighting DJ with DJ. Instead, just tell her that it offends you.
That SHOULD be enough for her, if she truly cares about you. There should not be a need for a long drawn out fight over whether or not you have the right to be offended.
It goes both ways, too. She doesn't need a reason to feel a certain way; it needs to be enough for you, her husband, that she DOES feel that way.
Whenever I do call her on it
This route is almost sure to lead to an argument.
A better approach is to tell her once, at a calm time, being radically honest, how you feel: you are hopeless and out of energy and the reason you feel this way is her disrespectful judgments, and you need them to stop.
Then, start practicing the behavior I am describing above in not tolerating DJs and not responding in the same way yourself. Tell her periodically if it is still a problem and ask her to look for help to do something about it. Tell her you know of this program.
she 100% of the time says, "You are just taking things the wrong way." She says it so much I start to wonder if I am until I reply it in my head and know for sure that they are insults.
That's crazy for you and her to have to deal with, and can only lead to a fight.
Are the insults meant to hurt me or rather to make herself feel better?
Who knows? Who cares? It doesn't matter? Don't waste time trying to judge your wife's motivations (and offend her in the process).
If one of you feels offended by something the other says, no matter what the reason, then the other should stop saying it. See if you and she can come to agree with this.
I guess when she sees the books arrive she'll know I'm deadly serious about all of this.
Hilltopper, are you serious? Are you trying to just show her by buying books and leaving them around, or have you been radically honest and told her how unhappy you are?
I'm over my head, she is all over the board. She likes me to take the initiative to do projects around the house. I tell her I'm heading to home depot for a stake for a tree that fell down. Now she tells she doesn't want me to go. WTF? It is almost surreal and other worldly how bad we communicate, I'm clueless.
Here is what I told her tonight. I know it ain't perfect but its a start. I'm sure you'll all point out a DJ or two!
I actually feel empowered and sad at the same time:
The reason I don't speak to you or want to hang out with you is because you treat me bad. You judge me, disrespect me, blame me, make me feel bad. On top of that your mood swings are all over the map so I never know where I stand which is hard to deal with. You think everything is disgusting and say so frequently which is not pleasant to be around. You have issues with me and a lot of your friends and say so frequently which is scary to be around. You are irritated with me most of the time which makes me feel bad. I won't judge you or try to get in your head anymore on what your motivations are any longer for doing any of these things. All I know is that my feelings are real and after literally dozens of attempts in every possible way I know how to get through to you, I'm giving up. I DO love you very, very much but I refuse to subject myself to your abuse from here on out.
Let me know what you think!
My wife's reply. Let me/her have it.
First of all I don't treat you bad. It's a mechanism of irritation with you. I don't like being a nag. And of course like today you always have to be right. Its not my fault u like to close up and not speak. Do what u gotta do. I already knew the story today, women always have instincts. Oh and the sex thing, it's like the chris thing. Im so irritated and tired i have zero sexual feelings. We don't ever do anything fun anymore, forget the romance. And yes I'm tired. Do u know what it's like taking care of three kids, one being an infant, taking them to school, classes, playdates, poop, screaming half the day, gas, etc. I'm not saying it's like this everyday but I'm allowed to get emotional. I'm a woman, not a man. I'm drained. Forgive me for being a grump when I never have any alone time except for myself except the bathroom and shower there is always a kid there. Forgive me for telling u my feelings about friends, I'm allowed my opinion. I will be less grumpy and work on our marriage, but the older out baby gets I'm sure the better it will get. What ever happened to walks to Starbucks, cooking together, anything for that matter.
She has a few points, but most of it in my mind says, "Not my fault, I'm allowed to treat you this way." How do I respond to someone that says she doesn't treat me bad? By the way, did I mention anything about sex?
Here is what I told her tonight. I know it ain't perfect but its a start. I'm sure you'll all point out a DJ or two!
I actually feel empowered and sad at the same time:
The reason I don't speak to you or want to hang out with you is because you treat me bad. You judge me, disrespect me, blame me, make me feel bad. On top of that your mood swings are all over the map so I never know where I stand which is hard to deal with. You think everything is disgusting and say so frequently which is not pleasant to be around. You have issues with me and a lot of your friends and say so frequently which is scary to be around. You are irritated with me most of the time which makes me feel bad. I won't judge you or try to get in your head anymore on what your motivations are any longer for doing any of these things. All I know is that my feelings are real and after literally dozens of attempts in every possible way I know how to get through to you, I'm giving up. I DO love you very, very much but I refuse to subject myself to your abuse from here on out.
Let me know what you think!
I think this is the result of two people who don't communicate and have become resentful of each other to the point where they can't hold a conversation about anything other than mundane things without resorting to angry outburst and disrespectful judgments.
And I know you're already aware of that. I'm sorry it's gotten to this for you. I can't say that I totally blame you for your frustration, though. Your Giver is has been working hard. Your Taker feels it's his turn at bat.
And then what happened?
All true. I don't think I know what to say or how to say it then. I'm trying to not judge while being radically honest. I guess I need a lot more training on how else to say it. Here is my reply, and yes we are resorting to email tonight because I don't believe face to face conversations right now would make us communicate any better.
Reply:
This does not acknowledge any responsibility for anything at all, in fact it returns the blame on me, the kids, being a woman, Alex, being tired, and us not doing anything together. I'm not judging you I'm just reading your own words below. I admit that you telling me about your friends shouldn't be an issue, that was wrong of me, its just been a bit more frequent of late and I guess I pointed it out in error, so I apologize. Every other point however you accept no responsibility and because of this any hope of progress or change will cease to exist. Progress is simply not possible without acceptance. So either you are ok with how things are, or you are not ok with how things are, will accept that you make me feel the way you do and attempt to change the patterns. I took to heart your emotional needs email and read it frequently. I accept that I do not feed many of these emotional needs and as a learning process I'm trying to address that. It is a long, long process, but I know that you've seen some glimpses and there is more where that came from with some small successes and feedback from you. I'm not perfect honey, but I'm attempting to feed your emotional needs as best I can, but the opposite is not true.
Markos,
It started getting testy, so I went upstairs. I guess I'll keep trying this. She appears to be indifferent to any of though, always has been. Not judging her, but I'll be honest, with her mother growing up, your skin better be tough. Mine is weak and I'm going to attempt to learn and communicate here to change that.
In case any of you are wondering the big D word is not an option in either one of our books. At least not till they are all grown up. We have decided we have committed to raising first and foremost our beautiful children. My wife and I regularly congratulate ourselves on how our six and four year old have become fantastic kids. Call us old fashion at least in that sense, but believe me we both want this to work, I just think we are at a loss of how to do just that.
My wife can't tell me to turn the heat down without an attitude. Its not how I take it, its just plain rude. I told her it is because our six year old complained this morning about being too cold last night, she said, "Well I'll ask her tomorrow". Does she not trust me that our daughter said she was cold? My wife for the first time also had panic attacks around the last trimester of pregnancy which has somewhat continued. We have to sleep with the door open and she is sensitive to too much heat or confined spaces. I'm not saying that is any kind of issue with us, doesn't bother me at all really, but has anyone else dealt with any kind of similar issues that might relate to what we are also going through? Postpartum? Most of this has come to a fever's pitch sense the last trimester of pregnancy. Prior to that we still fought but we still dealt with things better than today. Today we quite literally can't speak.
This morning my wife asked me if I was having a bad day as if the conversations and emails we exchanged last night didn't even exist. I said calmly that until you start accepting some responsibility about our marriage, I don't think we'll be talking much. I know that wasn't quite the best way to go about it, but I felt that I needed to be honest with her which I was. This whole Radical Honesty vs SD's and DJ's is a fine line for me. Any insight would be amazing.
Hilltopper, both of your Takers are out and swinging. It's almost like watching a boxing match - feint, swing, retreat to the ropes, charge, swing.
Both of you have agreed that the kids come first. You've got to change that. This business of agreeing that you won't divorce until the kids are grown is completely selfish on both of your parts and shouldn't even considered. Saying divorce is not an option...until the kids are raised? This is faulty thinking. So, you think the kids will be hunky-dory with the two of you divorcing when they're 19 or 20 years old? Where did you get that idea? Your kids want their parents to be in love and happy with each other, not getting a divorce the second they're out of the house.
Have you tried doing the EN's questionnaire with your wife? The two of you are going to have to put your weapons down and meet in the middle to really heal this rift between you. I'm not saying you're in the wrong, or she's in the wrong, none of that. I'm saying it's time to start a real conversation, and I'd start with the EN's questionnaire to determine what both of your most important needs are.
We had a "breakthrough" this morning! Yeah! She accepted responsibility as did I for the state of our marriage. I guess the honesty thing works! She promised that if I could watch the kids that she'd go upstairs and read Dr Harley's book. Here was my note to her and I'm so very excited to begin the journey together. I know it will be rough and we'll make mistakes along the way but I'm prepared for that. Thanks so much to all of you for the wonderful advice, it helped me tremendously and I plan to visit this forum frequently to continue receiving help and then hopefully eventually helping others.
My note early this morning to her:
Thank you for this, it is so important in my mind that we BOTH accept responsibility for the state of our marriage. By no means does fault lie with one person or the other. I have accepted that I don't meet your emotional needs and have neglected them for a long, long time. As I began to research it and do some soul searching I eventually stumbled on MarriageBuilders.com. This was not the first website I came across, I've looked at a ton. It is however the biggest and the best and after reading quite literally dozens of stories of people that were in the place we were but now have marital bliss I became a believer. Most marriage counselors, especially the free kind, don't work. It does no good for us to sit in a room together with a counselor and sit there and debate back and forth trying to get the counselors to take our side. That is exactly how it always turns out which is why there are very few successful marriage counselors period. I believe that by reading and following the principles of Dr Harley like so many others have before us, we can rebuild love back in our marriage. The Love Bank we both have right now if in the negative for each other which is why we don't feel love. When we feel that feeling of love for each other it becomes much easier and in fact exciting to be with each other.
You talked about your motivations for hurting me below. I don't think either one of us makes a conscious choice to hurt or disrespect the other. A lot of times we probably don't even realize we've done it. Many times we view hurtful things in our own eyes rather than in the eyes of our spouse. Just because I don't find some of the little things that you like don't mean they are not important to you. Just because you don't feel that you are hurting me doesn't mean that you aren't.
You refer to my wanting to always be right and being vengeful, how so? I don't want to be right or vengeful, I just want for you to love me and for me to love you. If you see being so persistent coming back to the same things over and over again it is because it means a lot to me to have a good marriage. That is my motivation, nothing else.
I will watch all the kids tonight so you can go read upstairs and I thank you for starting this first step. I don't see myself as being better than you for finding this wonderful site that I truly believe will help us by the way. I was just lucky for having stumbled upon it. If you can learn and read and take action with me this will snowball. One love deposit from me leads to one from you which leads to a whole lot of them back and forth. I know it might seem hard to believe that you could actually love me and be excited for me to come home after work, but it is true. We will have our mistakes along the way but it is worth it all. Our kids need to see a mommy and daddy that love each other, don't disrespect or undermine each other. They need to see parents that are on the same side of the fence. You can grab the book or you can read the basic concepts right on their site. Link is below. Oh, and one more thing, I DO love you very much.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
WAY TO GO HILLTOP!
It all starts with one deposit at a time. IF what you wote above is what you told her exactly, then you are on the right path my friend. I see no blame shifting .. and no DJ's in that message. If i was your wife I would see this message as a heart felt effort to show me that we are a team and that the breakdown of the marriage to this point is a JOINT effort and will be a JOINT effort to build it back up. I bet you your wife will not get defensive over this message, as it allows room for both of you to chew on what each of you have to do to accomplish your marital goals one little step at a time. Eventually as she discovers what it is she is mising and you plug the holes in your love bank so it stops drip draining .. the love will stay and continue to grow! I still suggest that before you go to bed at night that you possibly read the book together out loud sitting in bed next to eachother .. cuddling. Do it like this .. Get the kids to bed... get lunches ready .. put the dishes away emtpy the dish washer .. etc ... shower .. let her shower solo .. offer to rub her back and once shes relaxed .. ask her if she would like to read a chapter of the book with you. Tell her you will read it and she can cuddle and listen and provide some feed back or stop and have a discussion if something comes up that needs discussion.
Your doing a great job ... you have made your point clear (radical honesty) without a DJ and now since it did not drain her account becasue of the way you presented it .. shes considering it since she has seen a bit of a change in you.
Keep up the good work! ... over the next month you will notice a signifigant improvement if you guys continue on this path( you giveing her time to read and playing with your kids for her to wind down etc) .. and use the policy of joint agreement over everything! and learn to stop lovebusting (which your getting better at) .. you'll be back in puppy love again (both my wie and are back in puppy love ourselves and sometimes she makes me late for work! haha >.< and all your history will be rewritten back to into the positive light again.
Oh did i mention? ... GREAT JOB!
Well done, Hilltopper!
One suggestion, if I may: ask her to read sections at a time and then put the kids to bed and discuss those sections together.
Thank you both. She is at the mall, we've had a lovely day thus far once I got home. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt that she'll go up and read a section, but I'm scared that she won't. I guess I'll take it one step at a time as I sense a little bit of reluctance in her voice.
Nice guy,
Wife is upstairs in the bathtub, with a plate of grapes and cheese, and candles, WITH, no kids. I also listened to her and let her show me the kiddy clothes she bought at the mall. Not the fake listening, the real kind, undivided. I did this kind of stuff before, but quickly gave up as there was nothing in return. I now know that consistency of my actions will show her my intentions and hopefully she'll reciprocate. Very exciting times thus far, very exciting indeed!
Everything derailed. It was great, then wife disrespected me, I told her honestly how it made me feel. She went straight for the "you take things the wrong way", then gloves came off so I went upstairs. Came back down and she said I ruined the night. I asked her to just please read love busters and then turned around and walked upstairs. How can I avoid this in future?
I think you did right in calling her on her disrespectful behavior. How did you state it? I don't think you can do anything to avoid her reactions to your honesty. However, you still need to stand your ground in a respectful manner.
Not that we're supposed to educate our spouses, but you might ask her how she would feel if she were to say how she felt and you dismissed how she felt with her being too sensitive, how would she feel about that. What that does is invalidate our feelings.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html Print that out and have her read it. It'll be an introduction to love busters and might not be so overwhelming as going and reading a chapter or a book at the start for her.
I think you two need to get the kids down to bed together and fill out the LB questionaire together.
During the summer, I might have up to 5 kids to watch all day and evening together by myself. And it's the same for thousands of people out there. However, that doesn't give me a right just because I've had a stressful day to start lovebusting my wife.
Everything derailed. It was great, then wife disrespected me, I told her honestly how it made me feel. She went straight for the "you take things the wrong way", then gloves came off so I went upstairs. Came back down and she said I ruined the night. I asked her to just please read love busters and then turned around and walked upstairs. How can I avoid this in future?
I think she played you like a fiddle.
Your wife likes things just the way they are. I was afraid of this. It sounded like she was agreeing much too readily.
I think your wife knew exactly what button to push, knowing you would get upset and then she could blame YOU for ruining the evening and derailing the reading idea.
You've got to rebuild the dike, Hilltopper. Try it again - and when she starts trying to manufacture an argument, leave the room. Tell her "I don't want to spoil your opportunity to read our book by saying angry things."
Repeat as necessary.
I also think just like in a physical recovery, we get to eager and hope for too much too soon so when we have a bad day, it sends us over the edge.
When my father had knee surgery he was excited to play tennis again. He felt great. Then, the next time he played, it didn't go so well and their was some pain. He was despondant because his expectations were so high.
It won't turn around over night. Maybe keep a calendar with happy faces and sad faces....after a month, see if the number of happy faces as increased. Don't just look at the previous day, look at the overall.
In a situation similar to mine .. I had read the book "his needs her needs" myself looking for answers. I read it prior to convincing my wife to read it. WHen an attempt to create an intimate mood failed she would throw the book back at me (knowing i had read it) when I would try to explain my self while frustrated at her negative reaction, she would say ..
Well see! Now your going back to your old ways again. OBVIOUSLY *rolls her eyes* that book is not even helping you and everything your doing for me is a lie!
Then my knee jerk reaction would be to convince her that my actions and affection are not manipulation, but that attempt to convince her i was being genuine would bring out the taker in me and proved to her, in HER mind (disrespectful judgement), that I was being my regular annoying self.
I do not know how it played out for you to ruin your evening. But when you said ..
... I told her honestly how it made me feel.
Did you tell her respectively? or could the tones of your voice indicated any frustration in your emotions when you reacted to her being disrespectful?
If its the latter... then she sensed it and it triggered her instinct to shut you down. As Marital said...
I think your wife knew exactly what button to push, knowing you would get upset and then she could blame YOU for ruining the evening and derailing the reading idea.
So then as you feel frusterated you do what marital suggested again ..
..and when she starts trying to manufacture an argument, leave the room. Tell her "I don't want to spoil your opportunity to read our book by saying angry things."
But state it with tone that makes her feel like it didnt effect YOUR mood. By doing so you will diffuse her instincts to shut you down becasue she didnt get your usual response when she presses those buttons. Then again as Marital said .. (wow marital .. your full of great advice!
It may not be exact marriagebuilders ... I dunno .. maybe it is. But thats what I had to do. It took quite a few months to get it right consistantly til she was able to see that I was actually different. (but what it really is, is getting better control of your taker)
I would mention what bothered me respectfully and briefly. Then leave the room. Think for a moment to change my thought patterns. Tell myself that she just "hasnt gotten it yet" and then walk back into the room with something else on my mind and change the subject while giving her no continued emotional reaction to the situation anymore and carry on like it never happened. You really only have to say something once to a woman becasue she is already globalizing things in her mind.
Or go do something else she might need me to do and leave her to think about it.
*shrugs*
I'm afraid you are correct. The other day it occurred to me she wants things to remain the same because she is being the Taker most of the time. It feels good in an instinctive way to be the Taker despite causing pain to someone else and not feeling a loving relationship.
As far as agreeing to easily, I'm not so sure about that. I asked her this morning if she'd be open to reading some more of LoveBusters and she said, yes I will tonight. On top of that the book had about 4-5 pages "dog eared" which is a good thing. Why would she do that unless she saw some things that really got her attention? I'm still optimistic and last night was good. I made sure to listen to her more and didn't take offense when she asked for some things. It is a fine line to figure out what a selfish demand is and if it truly is my wife gaining at my expense. If it something really little like a, "Oh the baby woke up early so I couldn't make a lunch for Tay" type of a thing. Does that really harm me? I usually make it anyways and it doesn't even bother me.
The biggest concern I have is the blame game. This is something that Dr Harley doesn't address directly from what I can tell. My six year old and four year old have started doing this as well and I called them both on it today. The blame game can be from big things to little things. The biggest one was her not taking responsibility for our relationship, it was my fault in her eyes. When I put my foot down, she accepted it just fine. I stayed home to work out of the house last week and observed her most of the day. She kept saying normally she doesn't watch this much TV, but I certainly doubt that. It is odd because by no means is she lazy, but she sure blames being busy an awful lot for any number of things not getting done. Then if she feels really bad then she'll blame me for not helping. I know you hate when I bring up her parents, but I must say, her mother blames her father incessantly to the point where it is hard to watch. I guess this means that her instincts tell her it is ok to do this for anything you want. I grew up quite literally on the other end of the spectrum so I see each of one these and it bothers me very much even if it doesn't harm me. I'm working on biting my tongue more when she does this blame thing but it is so difficult particularly when it involves her blaming myself or any one of our three children for no reason.
I'm getting better at this. I've learned that I need to rise above her game whenever possible, and yes she knows how to push my buttons. Can you help me come up with something other to say to diffuse her instinctive enjoyment from manufacturing a fight? I don't want to just walk away each time as that would seem that she kind of wins anyways. I also don't want to fight back as that is what she wants. Its like a chess game except what she doesn't know is that I have all of you great people helping me make my moves!
This is good stuff and yes I've implemented some of this already. I have a hard time not wearing my frustration on my sleeve. I admit I was honest and fired back a bit before getting a hold of myself and walking upstairs. I'm sure she didn't enjoy sitting by herself downstairs the rest of the night, particularly when I told her that it would be nice then if she could spend some time reading LB, and also that I told her I was going up to read Fall In Love Stay In Love! What happened, well she ended up reading which was a good thing. She clearly knows all about the giver and the taker, the Love Bank, etc.
She is gonna have a hard time with this, much harder than I will because her Taker has really been running unchecked for a long, long time. One thing I mentioned to her this morning as something I learned was that both of us were devaluing and not accepting each others feelings. We do it differently, but they are in essence the same thing. She won't accept my feelings of being hurt by her abuse, she just goes back to the "you take everything the wrong way" play book. She learned this probably 4-5 years ago, I kind of fell for it, maybe admitted that maybe I did so she's used it ever since. I on the other hand am disrespectful about what is important to her. I was promptly hand slapped in here for referring to my wife manufacturing projects and things to do around the house, then getting stressed when she can't get them all done as fruitless or not important. I'm extremely practical, she isn't so much. The fact that she spends countless hours shopping for stuff for the house even though the garage is full seems ridiculous to me, but I'll never disrespect her again about it. It IS important to her and if I judge her about it, then I am hurting her, that is a no no. Thanks again so much for the insight about your personal situation, it helps more than you know.
The amazing thing about the blame game is once I stopped participating in it, it has gotten MUCH better. I never really complained much to begin with UNTIL my DH started mentioning things I hadn't done THEN I was ready with my list of his shortcomings.
I decided that if something really bothers me then I owe it to him to talk about it when it bothers me....not save it up and wait till he is picking on me. The other side of that is admitting when I really don't care about something and not using it as ammunition anyway.
Likewise, when he is bothered by something not being done, I don't find excuses, I just validate his feelings and go from there. This is hard because I still feel like he is blaming me but often times he is just expressing his general frustration.
Great Job Hilltopper. Its great shes dog earing some pages. THAT is good progress. Compliment her about something .. then tell her that you noticed she had read some of the book and that you appreciated it. THen ask her if there is anything she wants to discuss from what she has read already. If not do not worry about it.. then mention again that you appreciate her taking the time to read it again and that you plan on giving her the space and time so she can continue reading it. Be the best hubby ever!
Did you ask if she is interested in reading the books out loud together in bed? That is great bonding time. make some nice herbal tea .. put on the bedside lamp and fluff up your pillows and cuddle and read. Let her know that you have no sexual intentions with it and that you just wana spend time reading together so you are both on the same page! yes even in the literal sense lol.
Even tho you got a bit testy from her initial disrespect, you are learning as well and your BOTH going to make mistakes along the way. So dont beat your self up too hard or take it too hard when either one slips up. This is where your taker TRIES to help you run out of patience with each other. Since you are the one that is here .. you will need to use extra grace for her as you both learn to validate each others feelings safely without creating tension and successfully negotiate around that.
Have you read all the basic concepts? In particular "instincts and habits?" Have you read any of the articles? In particular "Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other" If not .. take some time to review them and reflect on them. Maybe print out the 2nd one i mentioned and present it to your wife and fold it up and clip it to the back of the book as an "additional resource" with a paper clip. Do you have the book "His needs Her needs for Parents" ?? If not .. I would suggest getting that one as well .. as it goes hand in hand with "Love Busters" and provides many scenerios that will resonate with you and your wife as you take time to read them. It includes how to handle the kids and incorporate them into the marriage without sacrificing your Intimate time ... or at the very least gives you a sense of direction on how to achieve more time as a couple and what that entails.
You mention your wife and compare her to her parents .. and you mention that you see some of the same traits in your kids and have called them out on it. Good job! Those will be habits that you will have to help them all break. Your wife is a product of her parents which leads me to.. children are products of their environment! so they are a direct reflection of you both. Once both you and your wife are back on the same page again, and you two stand together as a unified front ("his needs her needs for parents" tells how to do this well) the children will see the change and even tho they may be reluctant at first to the changes in you two regarding parenting, you will see a change in them as well and their behaviour patterns. Both my children would be just as tense as my wife and I when we were in a state of conflict or withdrawl .. and once we finally got back into intimacy again, our children, after spending many minutes in time out for the first few weeks for behaviour we didnt like INCLUDING my 13 year old) they changed their ways as well because my wife and I became consistant with what we expected of them and did not make any decisions regarding them until we both had a chance to put the POJA into action. So as you rebuild your intimacy with your wife with MB you will be able to call your kids on any of their behaviours that may reflect your old ways.
Keep up the good work Hilltopper. Your doing fine. Just remember. Find out what her needs are ... become an expert at meeting them effortlessly (only the top 5, do not waste your efforts on the lowest 5). BE the example and she will follow. Correct as we have stated earlier and dont let your taker get in the way right now. Everything will fall into place and before ya know it you guys will be so in love again you will wonder how you had ever fallen out of love. Could be even better than when you first met since marriages dont come with instruction manuals. Just like kids dont either .. but Dr. Harley's marital research has been a GOLDMINE of wisdom to follow. I still can not thank him enough .. so I try to help others with his material more often. NOt so much here on the forums ... but in others around me as they see my wife and I transform from the biggest drama in the family to the ones everyone is coming to for support now (which i must admit i have to turn them down alot now to try and keep my 15hours a week for my wife)
OK .. sorry for typing so much .. im losing my train of thought now >.< and have to get some work done lol ...
I don't know about your wife, but this made ME cry. Often I see this here, on this site, one spouse truly wanting to make their marriage better, and the other fighting it tooth and nail. I also see where my marriage never stood a chance. And that is where I cry. Best of luck to you both.
We had a "breakthrough" this morning! Yeah! She accepted responsibility as did I for the state of our marriage. I guess the honesty thing works! She promised that if I could watch the kids that she'd go upstairs and read Dr Harley's book. Here was my note to her and I'm so very excited to begin the journey together. I know it will be rough and we'll make mistakes along the way but I'm prepared for that. Thanks so much to all of you for the wonderful advice, it helped me tremendously and I plan to visit this forum frequently to continue receiving help and then hopefully eventually helping others.
My note early this morning to her:
Thank you for this, it is so important in my mind that we BOTH accept responsibility for the state of our marriage. By no means does fault lie with one person or the other. I have accepted that I don't meet your emotional needs and have neglected them for a long, long time. As I began to research it and do some soul searching I eventually stumbled on MarriageBuilders.com. This was not the first website I came across, I've looked at a ton. It is however the biggest and the best and after reading quite literally dozens of stories of people that were in the place we were but now have marital bliss I became a believer. Most marriage counselors, especially the free kind, don't work. It does no good for us to sit in a room together with a counselor and sit there and debate back and forth trying to get the counselors to take our side. That is exactly how it always turns out which is why there are very few successful marriage counselors period. I believe that by reading and following the principles of Dr Harley like so many others have before us, we can rebuild love back in our marriage. The Love Bank we both have right now if in the negative for each other which is why we don't feel love. When we feel that feeling of love for each other it becomes much easier and in fact exciting to be with each other.
You talked about your motivations for hurting me below. I don't think either one of us makes a conscious choice to hurt or disrespect the other. A lot of times we probably don't even realize we've done it. Many times we view hurtful things in our own eyes rather than in the eyes of our spouse. Just because I don't find some of the little things that you like don't mean they are not important to you. Just because you don't feel that you are hurting me doesn't mean that you aren't.
You refer to my wanting to always be right and being vengeful, how so? I don't want to be right or vengeful, I just want for you to love me and for me to love you. If you see being so persistent coming back to the same things over and over again it is because it means a lot to me to have a good marriage. That is my motivation, nothing else.
I will watch all the kids tonight so you can go read upstairs and I thank you for starting this first step. I don't see myself as being better than you for finding this wonderful site that I truly believe will help us by the way. I was just lucky for having stumbled upon it. If you can learn and read and take action with me this will snowball. One love deposit from me leads to one from you which leads to a whole lot of them back and forth. I know it might seem hard to believe that you could actually love me and be excited for me to come home after work, but it is true. We will have our mistakes along the way but it is worth it all. Our kids need to see a mommy and daddy that love each other, don't disrespect or undermine each other. They need to see parents that are on the same side of the fence. You can grab the book or you can read the basic concepts right on their site. Link is below. Oh, and one more thing, I DO love you very much.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html
Sunny,
The blame game isn't a two way street in our house. It is a one way. My wife blames circumstances and other people for anything and everything. I don't. I'm no hero for it, it is just how I see life. I remember in high school, friends would get a bad grade on a test and rather than accepting the consequences, their parents would get involved and negotiate to retake it. I always had an issue about stuff like that.
Thanks so much for the advice! I feel good about where things are headed. We had a couple of encounters today that fizzled out rather quickly because we both have learned a bit. She DJ'd me a few times and I lashed out because she was just simply wrong to do so. It diffused though within a few minutes so things are improving. I pulled the book back out and she said, "Is that sign?" I said of course, we need to keep at it, she said ok fine I'll read some more tomorrow. We're both exhausted tonight!
I hear ya! My wife is the Taker and I totally understand why she is dragging her feet a bit. Makes perfect sense actually. she sees a change though and we've had some lovely moments in the last couple of days. I'll keep you all posted and thanks again for the great advice.
Hilltopper ... hows it going over there?? Was thinking about you today because I had a moment my self where I had to take my own advice and use it on my wife. So i had to review what i had said to you and put it into action myself. I guess it was time for some more "practice" lol
Anyhow, my wife was pretty snarky to me last night and this morning ... So i gently told her that I was frustrated with her attitude and she went off a bit how i caused it. I then told her that was a love buster. Then since the conversation was not going anywhere but starting to build resentment, I left the room for the remainder of the evening.
Then this morning ... I kissed her good bye on her forehead without saying anything(which woke her up) and got in my car and went to work. A few hours later she called me and apologized for love busting me last night. My frustrations lifted almost instantly when she did.
Hopefully your having some luck!
Mr Nice Guy,
Thanks for sharing above. It is definitely a tough situation for both of us one would appear. How'd you feel about leaving the room? It is difficult for me to do because I honestly feel that she wanted to fight in the first place.
As far as my situation since last time I checked in, things have improved in terms of minimizing the DJ's and SD's for sure. She read the first 20 pages or so of Love Busters, so she gets it. She still fires some daggers at me particularly when she is grumpy. My two real concerns are the following:
Emotional Needs: I told her a couple days ago that I intentionally hold back in meeting more of her emotional needs than I already have been because I feel a since of inequity in this endeavor. I clearly am putting in way more effort in meeting her needs than the other way around. In fact aside from it just being more pleasant around the house, I see almost no attempt to meet my emotional needs at all and it really bothers me. I also told her that she has been the taker long enough and I have no desire to be her "whipping boy" and do whatever she tells me to do anymore. I also said this WILL happen and she can work with me to make it easier on both of us.
Blaming: This isn't going away at all. My wife refuses to take responsibility for anything and its completely ridiculous. Here is an illustration of just how bad it is. I asked her if she would make dinner two nights ago if I went to the store and bought some stuff for tortilla soup and enchiladas. I do 98% of the cooking so this was unusual, but she agreed and was happy to do so. Btw, her cooking is not an emotional need for me at all. So the soup and enchiladas were both lousy on her own admission. I comforted her and said it was delicious, but eventually assessed it with her honestly because it wasn't really a matter of opinion if it was good tasting or not! So later that evening she said, "The reason the dinner was bad was because I was in a bad mood and the person that published the recipe online was an idiot."
This is how far she takes it all day every day. I don't know if it is just an annoying habit or not. It seems to me to be more serious than that. It makes marriage difficult when one spouse never takes responsibility for anything if she doesn't want to. Like I mentioned before when my four and six year old start to do it I hold them accountable at each turn and let them know it is unacceptable. So whenever we have a disagreement she projects whatever it is on to something or someone else, usually me. My wife goes through life knowing that she has an out or excuse for literally everything. She has time for gardening, lots of television, shopping online, etc, but she has no time for reading LoveBusters or her husband. But she says, "Its not my fault, the kids are with me all day."
I guess this is a process and I'm not discouraged to the point of not trying, but I need to demand(somehow unselfishly) that she join me in this goal of bringing love back into our marriage. She is the Taker so she's not in any hurry I suppose.
One more thing, how can stop doing everything she asks me without it being an obvious attempt at some form of equity in our relationship? She asks me to do all these things because lets face it, I do them. Why would she stop?
How'd you feel about leaving the room? It is difficult for me to do because I honestly feel that she wanted to fight in the first place.
So you think the best idea is to indulge her? Please rethink that.
My two real concerns are the following:
Emotional Needs: I told her a couple days ago that I intentionally hold back in meeting more of her emotional needs than I already have been because I feel a since of inequity in this endeavor.
Where is this in the MB literature? What plan is this? It's not MB, not at all. This is PUNISHING your spouse, you are selfishly demanding that she meet your needs, OR ELSE.
Blaming: This isn't going away at all. My wife refuses to take responsibility for anything and its completely ridiculous. Here is an illustration of just how bad it is. I asked her if she would make dinner two nights ago if I went to the store and bought some stuff for tortilla soup and enchiladas.
So the soup and enchiladas were both lousy on her own admission. I comforted her and said it was delicious, but eventually assessed it with her honestly because it wasn't really a matter of opinion if it was good tasting or not! So later that evening she said, "The reason the dinner was bad was because I was in a bad mood and the person that published the recipe online was an idiot."
This is how far she takes it all day every day.
Okay, Q #1: did she want to prepare soup and enchiladas? You may be better off requesting that she cook whatever she likes to make best. I could *demand* that my H make fried chicken and mashed potatoes for me, but if I want something tasty, I better ask for meatloaf.
Q#2: what would you think about trying to understand her form of communication? Once you understand, you'll be better able to not be irritated by it, AND you can gently persuade her to be more direct. I read your quote as her saying, "I didn't want to do this in the first place, and then I picked a bad recipe." Which is totally accepting blame imho. "I agreed to something I wasn't enthusiastic about, then I got sloppy because I wasn't enthusiastic." kwim?
One more thing, how can stop doing everything she asks me without it being an obvious attempt at some form of equity in our relationship? She asks me to do all these things because lets face it, I do them. Why would she stop?
In MB parlance, you should stop doing everything she asks that you are not enthusiastic about doing. Honestly enthusiastic, not the PUNISHMENT you described above. Don't refuse to do something purely out of spite.
You make some points here that I believe are assumptions on your part. You do have a few thousand posts on me here so I'll yield to your experience, however she made whatever she wanted for dinner, not me. I asked her if she wanted to make dinner, she said sure, she opened some cook books for ideas, and chose what she chose, I had nothing to do with it. She has no problems saying no if she doesn't want to do something.
In regards to to leaving the room, I should rephrase my comment to "It isn't difficult, but it makes me feel sad every time it happens."
In holding back meeting her emotional needs, it is not really a conscious intentional decision. It is more along the lines of not wanting to meet her needs because she doesn't bother meeting mine. This is instinctual and selfish I know this, but I have yet to see a change in her behavior as a result of a change in mine. She's still taking, I'm giving, and it is hard to do day in and day out without fail indefinitely. My Taker wants to come out and play and I keep shoving him down out of the picture. I can appreciate things taking time, but at some point there needs to be a shock to the system to make progress and this is the part I'm struggling with. She likes it how it is, I don't, and it has to change. I don't want everyday to be about me being brutally honest about how she makes me feel and how unhappy I am, this makes her resent me and lash out at me.
First, pay no attention to post count when determining if someone knows what they're talking about.
You said in your post I quoted that you *told her* it was intentional about meeting needs. Then you said it wasn't intentional. Which is it? What do you think she believes? If my H told me that he intentionally wasn't meeting my needs because I didn't meet all of his, I would consider him a self-serving jerk and would be LESS inspired to meet his needs. Because that would tell me that he was only doing things for me out of 'what's in it for him'. Not because he loved me and wanted to show me that. Be careful of the message you're sending. You want to be firm, and actionable, on what you want from her.
You've only been here two months. Have some patience. Change your side of the interactions, don't fall for bait, and for goodness sakes stop DJing her intentions.
Hilltopper as i previously mentioned, when you let your taker come into play while trying to win your wife over to taking on MB principals you are back peddling and that does not help your situation. You need to come out looking like a saint to show that MB is changing you. If you stop meeting her needs then it will be hard to convince her that MB is working for you because obviously she wants her needs met first.
You said shes read about 20 pages of "love busters" and that she "gets it" ... but having read only 20 pages doesnt really give a clear picture of what the love busters are. By creating a resentful environment and allowing your taker to move in she will DEF be unwilling to continue reading. My wife did this to me over and over again ... Let me remind you of my previous post to you that highlighted what your going through right now.
In a situation similar to mine .. I had read the book "his needs her needs" myself looking for answers. I read it prior to convincing my wife to read it. WHen an attempt to create an intimate mood failed she would throw the book back at me (knowing i had read it) when I would try to explain my self while frustrated at her negative reaction, she would say ..
Well see! Now your going back to your old ways again. OBVIOUSLY *rolls her eyes* that book is not even helping you and everything your doing for me is a lie!
Then my knee jerk reaction would be to convince her that my actions and affection are not manipulation, but that attempt to convince her i was being genuine would bring out the taker in me and proved to her, in HER mind (disrespectful judgement), that I was being my regular annoying self.
You asked .. "How did it feel to leave the room?" Well .. it never feels good. I feel aweful actually. But it is necessary to disengage and establish boundries to what is and is not acceptable. Lashing back and with holding on meeting EN's of the non conformed relcutant spouse, is not going to convince her at all .. and she will resent the program entirely until she sees a consistant change in you! Since you are the one that is here .. its up to you to be the example.. Dont tell it ... LIVE IT.
If you read my story, you will see the gaps between my posts. It took a long.. LONG time to get my wife on board. Coupled with alot of praying. I banged my head against the wall alot trying to convince her to do MB with me but keeping MY TAKER at bay was hard work. What your doing with your taker .. happened to me ALOT. And each time I let my taker take over, It was back to square one.
Did you ask your wife if she was willing to read with you if you got the kids to bed at a decent time? Get the daily chores done, Run a bath ... and wash her back and read out loud to her while she relaxes? Or sit in bed together after she gets out and read together? Maybe reading lovebusters first is nota good idea? try approaching her with some articles first .. ones that she can relate to before bringing up your own ... How about the book "His needs Her needs" first?
Keep at it ... you will hit your head on the wall many times and back peddle alot til you get your taker under control. I know I did ...
MNG
Edited for wording
Hilltopper,
CWMI has the right idea about need meeting. Think about parents of childen...we love to meet their needs...affection, support, admiration...the whole gambit. We never expect to get our needs met from them...
Do what feels right but not what makes you resentful. You shouldn't be keeping score.
I used to do that so I know.
An example is, I love to text/e-mail. I used to do it with my friends when I heard/saw something cute or funny. Very rarely with my husband because he didn't ever respond and I just got mad. Now, when I see or hear something and want to tell him about it I do. He responds a lot. If I count them, they are nowhere near equal but that is okay.
It's like I tell my kids...don't say I love you unless you mean it and if you mean it, it won't matter if he/she says it back.
Once she feels this from you, she will most likely fall in love and WANT to meet your needs.
This is all so tough what all of you said. I feel as if my "taker" comments are something I share with you all honestly. I don't disrespect her in person any longer, I express my feelings about that to you. I can't control my feelings, all I can do is choose not to express feelings or make comments that will hurt her. I keep waking up every day waiting for her to say something like, "I'm so sorry I don't deserve you. I'm so sorry for doing this to you all this time." I know that this sounds so self serving and egotistical. I'm gonna keep doing this thing as best I can with all my heart. What scares me is my instincts tell me she is either unwilling or incapable of making this change with me. I no longer mention her mother to her anymore which is of great concern to me. I feel that it is ok to mention to you that the situation she grew up in wasn't only horrific, but continues to this day. This lady is awful, friggin disgusting to my wife, her husband, etc. I don't even think my wife has control over her emotions or actions. Call me crazy, angry, or just frustrated, but I'm fighting a battle that is just ridiculous. I get excited at times and then get a door slammed in my face over and over again and I don't know how long I can keep taking it. Everybody in here keeps saying that if I lead by example then "she'll most likely fall in love with you again", but I'm sorry man I'm just not buying it as of yet. I'm certain it works for many but I have yet to see one ounce of return for my investment. Do I want to fill her love bank yes!!!!!!! More than you know, I don't do it just to fill my own pockets. But how long do you keep giving to someone that only benefits them forever? I need way more insight and advice here, I'm struggling.
don't say I love you unless you mean it and if you mean it, it won't matter if he/she says it back.
I'm with ya, Sunny, except for this part. That's really up to the listener, I think. It's very important for some people to hear that affirmation.
Hilltopper ... It seems as though your wife is just not allowing you to meet her needs (you do know what they are dont you? did you fill out the emotional needs questionaire?) If you know what they are .. and your doing your best to fill them .. and shes not responding in any sort of positivity I would suspect that their may be another man in the picture somewhere.
Do you go to work full time and is she at home all day? Do you have a household computer that you all share? Does she have facebook?
I would do some snooping to see who shes chatting to when your gone to work. Could be she may have some kind of affair going on. I know my wife kinda did ... but it was only EA. HOwever .. that is still bad becasue then she is getting her need for intimate conversation met by someone else other than you and that can put up an emotional barrier between you and her. Most women need deep conversataion to feel loved. NOt casual talk .. but talk about feelings .. etc.
I didnt even know that EA's (emotional affairs) existed until I came here. I had them myself without realizing it .. not to the point of falling in love with someone ... but sharing details of my marriage with other women .. and my wife did the same with guys she met online. Well .. that opens a HUGE can of worms and it wittles away at your love for eachother. ALL MARITAL ISSUES should be either communicated respectfuly to your wife and hers to you .. and the only other acceptable communication about your marriage issues should be to a friend of the SAME SEX. Our instincts tell us to indulge in this conversation with opposite sex friends becasue its "easier" or becasue your getting a point of view from the other sexes perspective .. but that is DANGEROUS.
Has your wife ever said .. "your more like a brother to me" or .. I LOVE you but i am NOT in love with you" or anything along those lines? If so .. get snooping! Meanwhile ... you continue plan A and be the best Hubby you can be until you find out whats going on and why your on the bottom of the importance list.
Once my wife eliminated the online scene ... and ended all communications with her online buddies she was grouchy for a while .. but soon realized that feelings follow actions and as we read his needs her needs .. she began to realize what it was we were missing. And more specificly what it was she needed from me after she got a better mind set on the whole marriage builders concepts.
To do this .. I would suggest you put a keylogger on your home PC. This will get you passwords and everything for all her internet activity. Your Wife sounds VERY foggy especially since shes not responding very well to your Plan A. Head over to the Operation investigate area of the forum .. and check out some of the tools they post over there to snoop. I use
www.desktopshark.com for a keylogger becasue its free and is not detectable by my antivirus.
If you find something questionable.. DO NOT LET HER KNOW! DO NOT CONFRONT! .. Gather your evidence .. and save it all somewhere safe then come back here to form a plan with us and continue your plan A.
MNG
p.s. Have you read his needs her needs yet?
(you do know what they are dont you? did you fill out the emotional needs questionaire?)
Million dollar question, to which I'll add: does she know yours?
ETA: unless you thoroughly fill out the questionnaires, it's all shooting in the dark. "I need more sex," for instance...easily met by ramping up from 0 times a month to once, right? Or completely unmeetable because 'more sex' means five times a day. Without the information as listed on the Q's, stating a vague need ("More conversation" rather than "30 minutes of conversation once a day") is useless.
I went through the phone records, email, etc. Nothing there, I even asked her and she gave a resounding no. I don't think it is in here values to be a cheater, sexual or other. Besides we have a 4 month old, a 4 year old and a 6 year old so I just don't see it being possible. I'm very confident in her answer and will move past it and get back to LoveBusters.
We each know each other's emotional needs and I read them frequently. She gave me the most common 10 but never told me which ones were the most important. Being a practical dude I went straight for the ones like taking care of kids, making lunches, doing laundry, etc. We had a fight last night and a long, long talk this morning. It revolved around a few things which I'll get into later, but as it relates to EN's, she ranked the most important ones. First on her list was romance and I was shocked to say the least. Either she makes me feels stupid or I just feel stupid when I do romantic stuff. I feel like she is laughing at me behind my back. I told her that I would work on this and that it would be great if she gave me feedback about things. See for me I can't help but want to know that what I'm doing is making an impact and we struggle with this. She doesn't communicate as good as she thinks she does so I'm constantly guessing. Any feedback on romance would be amazing cause I'm ready to dive in. I want to feel confident that what I'm doing is being enjoyed by her. I WANT to make her happy in this way.
The next emotional need on the list was as a father. I'm a great father and I guess I raise our children how I was raised. Our daughter is six and is scared to ride her bike. I ask her if she wants to give it a shot about once a week and she turns it down out of fear. I guess I prefer not to "push" my kids into anything, but rather introduce them to things. If they get into it then they get 100% support from me all the way. I asked my wife her motivation for this, was it for our daughter's sake or hers? In other words, is she embarrassed about it? She said it wasn't the reason why and I guess it really doesn't matter. It would make her happy if I put a little more emphasis on the bike thing so I will.
Lastly she wants me to be more "handy". This isn't going away. She knows I'm not the greatest with a drill, but I want to put in the effort. I'm perfectly ok with not being mr fixit and she doesn't expect me to start building cabinets in the garage, but she gets annoyed when things are broken around the house. Money is tight and has been for a long time so I feel like I'm automatically against spending money regardless of what it is for which causes a lot of my inaction. I set a reminder for me every Sat morning to "fix something that is cheap." I can't do the big stuff and we can't afford it, but the little things I'm perfectly capable of so I'll keep doing so until they are all done.
I am concerned about her reluctance to try more. She fully admits to being in Taker mode and being selfish. I get easily discouraged when I do my best to meet her emotional needs but the same effort is not coming back the other way you know? I let her know that if nothing else I want to see a solid effort. What else besides being a parent is more important than our marriage. Our children need to see a loving an affectionate mommy and daddy too and that we'd be foolish to think they don't see it or sense it on a regular basis.
Hilltopper .. Are you sure you read the emotional needs on this site? Has your wife read the emotional needs? The ones your describing (romance) (father) (handyman).. those are not terms of MB but I will help identifiy them for you.
Romance - This need of your wife for romance falls under the 2 top emotional needs of women generally. Those being "affection"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html and "intimate conversation."
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html To meet these needs you need to have 15 hours a week together aprox to fulfill this. (its 15 on MB but even i have a hard time with 15hours sometimes its 10 .. sometimes its 12 sometimes its 8. Her side of the "romance" is all non sexual .. make sure your affection does not have a sexual undertone in it otherwise its just displaying your need for sexual fulfillment.. there is a fine line there.
Here is the link to the emotional needs questionair!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.htmlPrint it out .. x2 .. then fill them out .. and exchange them. It makes it pretty simple.
Father - Your wifes need for you to be a father is her need for "family commitment"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html Herre is a tip for you to teach your daughter to ride a bike .. and i used it on my own kids. Get a 2 wheeler that is too small for her .. remove the pedals and the shaft that goes in between .. and lower the seat so she stands higher than that bike. then get her to practice "coasting" and runing on it while sitting on the seat. My son and daughter both learned this way .. and it only took a few days with lots of encouragement and positive reinforcement from me.
Handyman - Your wifes need for you to be more handy falls in the category of "domestic support"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.htmlRead the links and print out the emotional needs questionaire and do them together and then exchange them and discuss.
I think her reluctance to try more is deriving from the focus on love busters. Get her on board with what resounds with her. Maybe print out some of the concepts for her that revolve around what she wants you to do and let her see if your doing them by compaing your "doing" with what Dr. Harley says falls into those categories that interest her. She may be more open to MB approcahing from it from what she will get out of it rather than focusing on the bad side of things. REading His needs her needs will really expand on the "good stuff" more so than the bad stuff like love busters does. I think with the love busters book ... its putting pressure on her to change bad behaviours .. but i think due to its negative undertone she is taking with it she is being reluctant because she cant see the light at the end of hte tunnel. Make it more about her and how your goin to do what Dr. Harleys articles suggest and point out her needs to her through Dr. Harleys terms. Then she will recognize more so what your doing .. and be able to compare your efforts to what the dr. Prescribes.
You could bring up her need for romance .. and show her the articles on conversation .. and affection. And being with those to open the door to being the hubby she wants you to be.
Keep up the good work ... With my wife I had to point out more and more about what was in it for her and how I was to change rather than show her what she needed to change.
MNG
p.s. Vets If i am getting this wrong or mixed up .. plz let me know .. my posts get a bit long winded so i lose my train of thought often lol.
edit for spelling and a messed up link
Hilltopper .. Are you sure you read the emotional needs on this site? Has your wife read the emotional needs? The ones your describing (romance) (father) (handyman).. those are not terms of MB but I will help identifiy them for you.(Yes I've read them all!)
Romance - This need of your wife for romance falls under the 2 top emotional needs of women generally. Those being "affection"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html and "intimate conversation." (The affection is there from me, not from her. I make efforts to hug, kids, tell her I love her daily, she doesn't at the current time need any more affection.)http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html(I've made an effort and I told her this to look her in the eyes when she talks and take an interest in what she is saying. Its been better, but I'm still working on improving.)
To meet these needs you need to have 15 hours a week together aprox to fulfill this. (its 15 on MB but even i have a hard time with 15hours sometimes its 10 .. sometimes its 12 sometimes its 8. Her side of the "romance" is all non sexual .. make sure your affection does not have a sexual undertone in it otherwise its just displaying your need for sexual fulfillment.. there is a fine line there.(I hear ya on this point. I offered a massage which likely had a sexual overtone, btw there is no sex whatsoever, zilch. We spend about 2 hours at night after the kids to to bed, most of the time it is in front of TV watching the shows we both like together because we are so exhausted. I suggested scrabble instead but she kind of was down on the idea. I'm not confident right now knowing when to just "do things" vs "ask things". Maybe next time I won't ask I'll just setup the table and see how it plays out.)
Here is the link to the emotional needs questionair!
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.htmlPrint it out .. x2 .. then fill them out .. and exchange them. It makes it pretty simple.(will do, we have the workbook)
Father - Your wifes need for you to be a father is her need for "family commitment"
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3345_fam.html Herre is a tip for you to teach your daughter to ride a bike .. and i used it on my own kids. Get a 2 wheeler that is too small for her .. remove the pedals and the shaft that goes in between .. and lower the seat so she stands higher than that bike. then get her to practice "coasting" and runing on it while sitting on the seat. My son and daughter both learned this way .. and it only took a few days with lots of encouragement and positive reinforcement from me.(Good idea)
Handyman - Your wifes need for you to be more handy falls in the category of "domestic support" http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3340_dom.html(Domestically I'm a champ, I do more than any dad I know around the house. She has a specific desire for me to be good at fixing or building stuff. She never lets it go and often times "belittles" me about it because she knows it hurts me I assume. I can get better here.)
Read the links and print out the emotional needs questionaire and do them together and then exchange them and discuss.
I think her reluctance to try more is deriving from the focus on love busters. Get her on board with what resounds with her. Maybe print out some of the concepts for her that revolve around what she wants you to do and let her see if your doing them by compaing your "doing" with what Dr. Harley says falls into those categories that interest her. She may be more open to MB approcahing from it from what she will get out of it rather than focusing on the bad side of things. REading His needs her needs will really expand on the "good stuff" more so than the bad stuff like love busters does. I think with the love busters book ... its putting pressure on her to change bad behaviours .. but i think due to its negative undertone she is taking with it she is being reluctant because she cant see the light at the end of hte tunnel. Make it more about her and how your goin to do what Dr. Harleys articles suggest and point out her needs to her through Dr. Harleys terms. Then she will recognize more so what your doing .. and be able to compare your efforts to what the dr. Prescribes.(All of this is great and yes I'm sure she feels the negative undertone because she is guilty about not making the effort? I dunno, I guess this doesn't matter either. She mentioned actually getting two jars out that represents our love banks and putting notes in each time we do something that fills it up. That way it is easy to see who is doing what and I'm sure she'll feel bad if hers is full and mine is mostly empty you know? Any issues with this?)
You could bring up her need for romance .. and show her the articles on conversation .. and affection. And being with those to open the door to being the hubby she wants you to be.
Keep up the good work ... With my wife I had to point out more and more about what was in it for her and how I was to change rather than show her what she needed to change.
MNG
p.s. Vets If i am getting this wrong or mixed up .. plz let me know .. my posts get a bit long winded so i lose my train of thought often lol.
edit for spelling and a messed up link
If you want to also show me how to quote stuff properly I'd be grateful for the instruction. My answers are in brackets above.
When i do multiple quotes ... what I do is log in to MB .. then open a second tab with MB in it again .. this way it leaves my reply open on one .. while i chop up quotes from the other one and copy and paste them into my posts/replies. So for instance .. lets say you want to just quote a small piece of my post .. you would open MB in a seperate window and find my post .. and hit QUOTE. This opens the reply box again but you just cut out all the stuff you do not want in the quote move the BB code quote commands around to where you deem fit.
the quote commands look like this but no spaces: [ quote=username ] text here [ /quote ] all the quoted stuff goes in between the commands where it says text here .. so if you do it right it would look like this
You can actually look up BB codes on the net and use a wide assortment of them including bold texting ... colours ... size ... etc. all with BB codes. All the codes go in between the [ ] and to end the code so it goes .. you have to have the / in the second command like for instance I could bold this text
BOLD using [ b ] bold [/b]
get it?
You can learn all sorts of BB codes here ..
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcodeKeep at it ... get those questionairs filled out .. and until she is more onboard with MB dont dwell too much on the negative or the lovebusters. Woo her into MB by showing her whats in it for her ... keep the topics short. Like one article a day .. or sit down over a cup of coffee and read out the affection one to her or the conversation one to her .. etc .. keep it simple. Babies dont start with solid food .. so you give them milk until they grow. Your wife is in the same boat .. give her the "milk" of MB by showing her the easy stuff, the stuff that allows her to see your changes and helps her understand her needs (my wife didnt even know her needs until it was all laid out to her in baby steps. After you do the questionairs .. then focus on her needs and the articles and info that surrounds them. I would get right off of love busters since she is being reluctant .. and go for the mushy stuff .. like his needs her needs .. its more focused on the happy side of marriage rather than the side that could be taken as a bit offensive until they see the entire picture.
My wife and I started with the POJA article (that got the ball roling and my wife lit up after reading it and said
Ha ha! This is a double edged sword!
... then after she got ideas in her head how she could get what she wanted using POJA we read His needs her needs ... and the ball just continued to roll from there. The LAST one we did .. (just 2 weeks ago) was love busters ... it was easier to chew on becasue my wife already understood the other "milk" topics that I fed her.
Keep it up ... you will break through to her. Just a matter of time .. and finding the right chord that strikes her.
Also ... to comment on her idea about 2 jars.
She mentioned actually getting two jars out that represents our love banks and putting notes in each time we do something that fills it up. That way it is easy to see who is doing what and I'm sure she'll feel bad if hers is full and mine is mostly empty you know? Any issues with this?
I don't think thats such a good idea as of yet. It may backfire on you and cause more resentment. Because what she THINKS should give you a deposit may not and vise versa and then to see efforts not working especially in light of a jar .. may cause a back slide and then the "taker" in each of you will notice the scores not even and try to convince you to get what you need by any means possible. I could be wrong .. Maybe it would work .. But if you were to do that .. suggest she read His needs her needs FIRST! to get a better idea at what all the needs are. THen let HER put that plan into action. Not you. You could mention it to her like this " thats a great idea hunny, I think that would be great! Lets work together at identifiying all DR. Harleys Ideas on what emotional needs are .. then that way we can figure out what to put notes in the jars for!"
To make that work ... SHE would have to put something in HER jar if you did something that made her feel loved etc. and you put something in YOUR jar if she did something that made you feel loved. The note could contain exactly what it was that caused the deposit.
*shrugs*
Edit for more details.
Thank you both, I have His Needs Her Needs on my nightstand, read about a chapter or so. I'll go get it right now. The intention of the jar is how you mentioned it at the end. We fill up our jars when someone fills or takes away. She is in charge of hers, I'm in charge of mine. Because feedback is such a problem this will give us the ability, particularly me, to know what she like or didn't like. It will also allow me to know when I've taken away when I probably to this day don't even know that I do! I find myself feeling sick to my stomach right now. She is sick, I brought her some chicken soup, bought four jars for our experiment on the way home. Why do I feel stupid that I'm so obviously giving her what she asked for? Did anyone else feel this way at first? I don't yet at this time feel confident that it will change to be honest. I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she does want to get love back in her marriage. She's admittedly been in taker mode for so friggin long, it is gonna take a bit to break out of it. This is so exhausting. After our big talk today she was obviously stressed and told me she was going out with her friend for the night. She never does this so its not a big deal other than the fact that her first instinct had nothing to do with my emotions or state of mind. She went straight to what will bring her spirits up you know? I told her that I had hoped we would spend time together tonight. She still isn't feeling well so that just might happen. All in all I guess there is progress but I'm still terrified her effort just won't be there. What do I do then? Don't answer that I'm sure you'll tell if we need to cross that bridge.
I'm downstairs early. We started the jar thing unofficially last night. She told me I had made two deposits and one withdrawal. The withdrawal was an annoying habit. I told my wife she made one withdrawl. I don't know how to classify it, I brought down the laundry basket to fold laundry and she quickly rejected my help, is it a DJ? Anyway, baby woke up about 4am, the heat was on cause it is cold out here, she snipped at me half asleep about the heat being on(its on every night, but for some reason when she is grumpy or uncomfortable she has me as her target). So this was one withdrawal. Second one was just a bit ago. She feeding baby, I'm lying on my side of the bed, she pushes my foot out of the way because she wanted to stretch her foot to my side of the bed. No big deal right? Well being that my number one emotional need which I've clearly stated to her is to be affectionate to me, this was completely the opposite which was "get away from me". This little gesture hurt and was clearly a big withdrawal. So after a big talk yesterday, working through some things, promising to "read every night" Dr Harley's books, she went straight to bed, didn't read, the made two withdrawals all before six am. I'm hoping once she wakes up and gets some coffee in her she'll remember her commitment and adjust to make some deposits down since I'm already 0-3. I prayed last night that God would open her heart and mind to all of this stuff.
I don't know how to classify it, I brought down the laundry basket to fold laundry and she quickly rejected my help, is it a DJ?
Can you expand on this? What was said?
When she pushed your foot out of the way did she push it away and then withdraw? I push my dh's leg over all the time so I can put a leg on his side, but I want him to stay touching me, just in a way thats comfortable to me.
Are you reading into her intentions the most negative or positive possible explanation?
It was a quick, look you don't need to be perfect here and do the laundry. I know I have a pattern of assuming what my wife's intentions are, but I assume in this case that she was feeling guilt? Since the last post, we kind of had a mini-tif. I'm not good at hiding my annoyance with my wife, she spots it every time and asked me, so I told her. I told her the things that were withdrawals to my LB, she went by instinct to the "you're reading into it and I didn't mean it that way", which I quickly reminded her that those are my feelings and you can't tell me how I'm supposed to feel. She actually did say "I get it" which is a good thing. I also said I was concerned because no sooner did we just have a talk and agreed commitment that she pretty much ignored it starting with last night, early this morning, and then now. She did kiss me on the cheek which was nice, but I'll be honest my feelings being damaged as they were I assumed it was just a show. I won't make that mistake again, if she is trying, then I'll accept her affection no matter how she gives it. We continued our talk and she was going for a run for two hours. I have no problem with her getting away, she needs it, but I do have a problem with her automatically looking to do things that make her feel good without regard to me, you know? She said, "What is wrong with me running and getting exercise?" I said nothing, but that in our current situation I would thing some activities should be put on hold so that we can read and spend time together. She went running anyways. By the way I made her her favorite coffee, made breakfast for the kids, cleaned the dishes from the night before, tried to hold baby after we had our tif which she rejected which is bizarre. I can tell this morning she is feeling the inequity which might or might not be a good thing. So since about 4am she has withdrawn about 8 times with the 1 kiss coming in as a deposit. Mine is the opposite. I knew this would happen.
When she pushed your foot out of the way did she push it away and then withdraw? I push my dh's leg over all the time so I can put a leg on his side, but I want him to stay touching me, just in a way thats comfortable to me.
Are you reading into her intentions the most negative or positive possible explanation?
She pushed it away and pulled it back. We used to touch legs in bed all the time, but now she doesn't want to touch me at all. She told me that. This behavior and reluctance on her part to deal with issues is nothing new, she does it in every aspect of her life and I don't know why. She used to be in charge of the bills, but would put entire stacks of bills in the drawer out of site out of mind until we'd be paying late charges or getting accounts cancelled. She procrastinates all the time and I suppose this is no different. Due to the gravity of the situation I would think this would be different you know?
Ok knock down drag out fight just now. I told her I was gonna leave her. She must have a tough exterior because she almost looks like she enjoys this stuff. She said I ruined her day which is unbelievable. She is literally crazy I think, distorts everything, blames me for it all, its insane! Someone help me please I'm so lost, so upset, so sick to my stomach, and I don't know what to do. Not sure if there is anyone I can talk to on a Saturday but if there is I'd be willing to figure something out.
Hill, how did you react to her saying you didn't have to do the laundry? The way you post, I assume you had something along the lines of a hissy fit.
Why did you tell her you were gonna leave her? Are you? If you're not, why would you say such a thing? And then call her crazy???
Why don't you slow down, stop fighting with your wife, stop threatening her, and read the book?
I've read a book and a half man! I tried to get her to do the workbook with me, she keeps putting it off, everything is put off. Look I believe in the principles of this forum and Dr Harley, but you don't know what I'm up against. She won't try, period! I'm tired of pretending to make her feel better about ourself that "we are both responsible" for our current state. That is crap and a lie. SHE is responsible for this, has always been, and if nothing changes will be responsible for a divorce which hurts us and our three beautiful children. Selfish or not I demanded her to change starting NOW, now pushing it off for this or that. Yes I threatened my wife and I can appreciate the theory of not doing that and showing her what change looks like, but as I've said for years about this woman, nothing matters. I cannot control any outcomes or behavioral change no matter what I do on my end and never had. I'm sitting here terrified, hurt, scared about divorce, scared that she'll just push off something this serious again. Her Dad has let that vile mother of hers hurt him for 40 years of marriage, only having the courage to leave her about five years ago, only to come back after six months. I refuse to be helpless about my situation and let her do the same thing to me.
What exactly is she doing to you?
What is it that you want her to do now? Exactly?
You're full of BS that she is solely responsible for the state of your marriage, and until you ACTUALLY change that mindset, you're not going to get anywhere.
Threatening her makes you VERY UNATTRACTIVE. You realize this, right? If you stopped the threats, stopped engaging in arguments with her, you might be able to get somewhere. No action required on your part, only inaction! Can you do that? My H and I used to have huge arguments that would go on for days. You would be amazed at how that has simply *stopped*. You know how? I quit falling for it! Most of our arguments would be about me complaining to him about something he had done. He would bow up and get angry and start attacking me, and off we'd go! Now, I still complain if something bothers me, and sometimes he still bows up--but now instead of playing that game, I just say, "I only wanted to let you know that [whatever] is not okay with me. Now you know. We can talk about it if you'd like, but I will not be spoken to that way. If you raise your voice again, I'll leave the room and we can talk when you calm down." EASY. Try it.
You can search for the "When to call it quits" article. I wouldn't threaten divorce unless you really plan on doing something. There's nothing wrong with saying "I refuse to be in a marriage that involves X, Y, and Z" But I don't think you need to get mad and say, "That's it! I can't take it anymore...I'm divorcing."
I think it's perfectly okay to set forth what you will and will not accept in the marriage. You don't have to fight with her. Do drive by honesty. When she snips at you, "I don't appreciate you saying...." "I don't appreciate it when...." Do it right then and then drop it.
I don't think you're giving this enough time. Do Plan A. If nothing changes, go Plan B.
But, remember, you can't make your spouse do anything. If she's picked up these habits and has been doing them for years, it's going to take more than a couple of days for her to change. This is a process. And weeks/months later you're still working on them.
There's nothing wrong with expecting your ENs to be met back and for LBs to quit being thrown your way. You better make sure you're doing the same though.
ehm,hmm.
While reading your thread some questions came to mind.
- If you think your wife is a mean, egoistic, disfunctional character, why did you marry her? Did someone tie you to the altar and force you to say yes?
- If that is not the case, could it be possible that she is worn down (having a 4-month old and two other children and a husband who also wants things from her)
- You come across as being right most of the time and when you are not right, you admit it of course (you don't want to be so immature as your wife is)
- have you done anything fun lately? Because bugging her about reading HNYN or if she is irritated, saying I am going upstairs to read love busters.... is sure not going to make her fall in love again with you. It also is not going to make her mood better.
- you seem to be a smart person. come on. Sweep her off her feet a bit. Allthough... I had a depression though, after my 4th child, and the things which would be fun normally were very disappointing. If you are having feelings of despair yourself, could it be that the current stresses of your life are affecting you too? Because if that is the case, you may see thing differently when you are your own self again. Just think about it. If she is the person you willingly married, and you are going through a stressfull time, it is possible that it is affecting you in ways you do not realize. Please do something fun together which the two of you used to love. And no problem talk pleeeeaaaase. Just something fun. And if you do not have fun where you used to be thrilled, than you need to look a little deeper into the depression thing. Babysitters can be life saving!
You can do it. If baby gets 6 months old it will be a little better. If it is 1,5 years old it will get better still. And if it is 3, you will be back to normal again, or better of course. Hang on. You can save the family! Ride the storm out!
Oh, and please stop teaching her, or change your screen name to Mr. Wiseguy.
Being a know-all who tells her how to think is not sexy.
So you are saying if I read correctly, just do my thing filling up her love bank regardless of anything indefinitely? In the mean time I walk away from all fights , tell her when she hurts me nicely, and hope that she'll change? No offense to you all but prior to finding this forum I had unknowingly Bern the giver and her the taker for a long long time. By no means am I perfect but I'm a pleaser and I've worked a long time doing just that as it us my nature. My concern with this program is that my wife learned growing up that she doesn't need to accept responsibity fir her actions. every time I let her know she hurts me she just rejects it so how I compete with that?
Hill, how about giving Steve a call? He can help you organize a plan and get your wife on board. My marriage is far from perfect, but I don't think I'd still be married if I hadn't brought Steve into it. My H thought much like your W, that if I had a problem, it was my problem. He recognizes OUR problems now.
I agree completely with CWMI. I think investing in a few counceling sessions with Steve would be a good idea. Most of the women on here that have talked with him like talking to him and the way he relates to them. He seems to be pretty successful with 'breaking through' to people.
And no one is advocating sitting indefinately in an unhappy marriage.
My question is if you were to walk away right now, would you be 100% sure that you did all you could do to clean up your side of the fence and give the marriage 100% ?
And, yes, you call the spouse on all LBs when they do it.
I'll think about that. Yesterday started out rocky, but we did something fun with the kids, had lunch, etc. If nothing else it got the conversation started. We got to bed opened the workbook and she said she would let me read it to her. I read many of the LB's and EN's section and she wasn't mean about it, but I'd definitely say a little sarcastic about it. I got to the sexual fulfillment part and she blurted out, "that isn't gonna happen any time soon." This was like a dagger to my heart I realized later that night as I was trying to fall asleep. Why would she intentionally withhold one of my EN's? To be honest it made me consider the "other man" thing again. I definitely struggle with the honesty thing, but she was sleeping already and I'm scared to bring it up this morning. Everybody deals with their problems differently. I guess it also bothers me that she doesn't lose sleep at night over any of this stuff, or at least appears not to. I on the other hand am in agony about it all, can't eat, sick to my stomach. She did say that its "almost all my(her) fault about the affection thing" yesterday which was good. Anytime she admits anything it means we've made some progress. So here I sit this morning with the best of intentions, yet scared to even respectfully tell her that she hurt me last night with that comment and her somewhat sarcastic attitude about the workbook. Why wouldn't she want to participate with enthusiasm? In regards to the sex thing, its gotten worse over the years, we stopped kissing about 5-6 years ago when she had a tooth that had gone bad. The "breath" thing means its an automatic "no". This hurts. The "hop on" thing or "don't take too long" has been happening for a long time as well. At least it was something, now it is nothing at all with no sign of anything changing soon. I will say my persistence with this entire thing has caused there to be conflict so I'll consider the Steve thing, btw, who is Steve? I only know the name William Harley, right?
We talked a bit this morning about her "no sex anytime soon comment.". This makes me insecure big time. She said she "has no feelings for that yet" which I understand to some degree. I've never been insecure in this relationship until recently. Any ideas in how to not assume the worst about her lack of affection and desire for sexual fulfillment? Any ideas fir this insecure feeling in my stomach about the no sex thing? I wish no one brought up the other man thing otherwise I never would have considered it.
I agree completely with CWMI. I think investing in a few counceling sessions with Steve would be a good idea. Most of the women on here that have talked with him like talking to him and the way he relates to them. He seems to be pretty successful with 'breaking through' to people.
And no one is advocating sitting indefinately in an unhappy marriage.
My question is if you were to walk away right now, would you be 100% sure that you did all you could do to clean up your side of the fence and give the marriage 100% ?
And, yes, you call the spouse on all LBs when they do it.
I'll consider, $225 for 40 mins is probably worth it, but no an expense I can throw caution at the wind at. Believe me, I won't blow it off. How would I go about getting her to talk to Steve anyways?
What exactly is she doing to you?
What is it that you want her to do now? Exactly?
You're full of BS that she is solely responsible for the state of your marriage, and until you ACTUALLY change that mindset, you're not going to get anywhere.
Threatening her makes you VERY UNATTRACTIVE. You realize this, right? If you stopped the threats, stopped engaging in arguments with her, you might be able to get somewhere. No action required on your part, only inaction! Can you do that? My H and I used to have huge arguments that would go on for days. You would be amazed at how that has simply *stopped*. You know how? I quit falling for it! Most of our arguments would be about me complaining to him about something he had done. He would bow up and get angry and start attacking me, and off we'd go! Now, I still complain if something bothers me, and sometimes he still bows up--but now instead of playing that game, I just say, "I only wanted to let you know that [whatever] is not okay with me. Now you know. We can talk about it if you'd like, but I will not be spoken to that way. If you raise your voice again, I'll leave the room and we can talk when you calm down." EASY. Try it.
I'll use this approach and you have it correct it is 90% of the time me having issues with something she has done or said to me, or doesn't do to me that is an EN. I won't fall for the fights because every time I do, she goes into Taker mode and won't let me in.
ehm,hmm.
While reading your thread some questions came to mind.
- If you think your wife is a mean, egoistic, disfunctional character, why did you marry her? Did someone tie you to the altar and force you to say yes?
- If that is not the case, could it be possible that she is worn down (having a 4-month old and two other children and a husband who also wants things from her)
- You come across as being right most of the time and when you are not right, you admit it of course (you don't want to be so immature as your wife is)
- have you done anything fun lately? Because bugging her about reading HNYN or if she is irritated, saying I am going upstairs to read love busters.... is sure not going to make her fall in love again with you. It also is not going to make her mood better.
- you seem to be a smart person. come on. Sweep her off her feet a bit. Allthough... I had a depression though, after my 4th child, and the things which would be fun normally were very disappointing. If you are having feelings of despair yourself, could it be that the current stresses of your life are affecting you too? Because if that is the case, you may see thing differently when you are your own self again. Just think about it. If she is the person you willingly married, and you are going through a stressfull time, it is possible that it is affecting you in ways you do not realize. Please do something fun together which the two of you used to love. And no problem talk pleeeeaaaase. Just something fun. And if you do not have fun where you used to be thrilled, than you need to look a little deeper into the depression thing. Babysitters can be life saving!
You can do it. If baby gets 6 months old it will be a little better. If it is 1,5 years old it will get better still. And if it is 3, you will be back to normal again, or better of course. Hang on. You can save the family! Ride the storm out!
Of course nobody forced me to marry her, I just didn't know what I was getting, or she evolved into this person over time. Yes, the new baby has thrown a wrench in the program, but this is something that has been getting worse over time and will continue to get worse. We did something fun with the family yesterday and it got the conversation going a bit. It started rough, usually with me asking a question and her doing a one sentence answer. I hugged her on the way out the door today and although it was heart felt from me, it was a one arm lightly around my neck from her. She used the word "disgusted" referring to how she feels about me the other day. I'm sure you know how much that hurts to be felt about that way from a spouse. She doesn't disgust me at all, she is frustrating, but I do love her. She clearly has fallen out of love with me and it hurts so bad. If she is not in love with me anymore that would tell me or someone from the outside that I have made it so.
I politely sent her an email about how her being sarcastic about the workbook last night and making a comment about how sex, "ain't gonna happen any time soon" was a bit hurtful. I also stated two things that were nice that she did to balance it out. She sent me a one liner from her phone that said "Sorry about number 3 and 4". That was it no other explanation. I'll take the sorry I guess? Then I get a frantic text that was fairly lengthy about all the hotels being booked for some trip we are going on. So from my perspective spending time reading and replying to my concerns have taken a back seat to travel arrangements in May. I asked her specific questions in the email one being, "Was your sarcasm about the workbook just you putting up a tough exterior? I would appreciate you explaining if that is all it is so that I can "get you" better in the future." Why do I feel as if she is almost laughing at me behind my back?
Although it's hard, try not to fret too much over your W's responses to the overtures you're making, and what they might or might not reveal about her inner thoughts. You can quickly drive yourself crazy wondering and worrying about that.
Focus your energy on your own thoughts and actions -- the things you have control over. Maintain your own integrity. Continue with your program to build the relationship. Try to let your attitude be "I have decided what kind of man I want to be, and I'm working to achieve that goal." That won't keep you from being hurt, but it will help you avoid making yourself crazy by analyzing every little thing your W says and does.
You might tell her that the program works best when both people jump in head first. It means she meets your needs and you meet hers and both of you stop LBing immediately.
I don't know if I'll catch flack for this or not. But you might also tell her that you had not intended on living in a sexless marriage. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty.
Although it's hard, try not to fret too much over your W's responses to the overtures you're making, and what they might or might not reveal about her inner thoughts. You can quickly drive yourself crazy wondering and worrying about that.
Focus your energy on your own thoughts and actions -- the things you have control over. Maintain your own integrity. Continue with your program to build the relationship. Try to let your attitude be "I have decided what kind of man I want to be, and I'm working to achieve that goal." That won't keep you from being hurt, but it will help you avoid making yourself crazy by analyzing every little thing your W says and does.
Good point!
You might tell her that the program works best when both people jump in head first. It means she meets your needs and you meet hers and both of you stop LBing immediately.
I don't know if I'll catch flack for this or not. But you might also tell her that you had not intended on living in a sexless marriage. Honesty. Honesty. Honesty.
I've made more than a good effort at being incredibly honest about both of these things. Believe me she knows, but she is not yet willing to put forth the effort in her eyes. She keeps pointing back to being tired with kids about the "effort" in Dr Harley's principles. I can't control what she does so I'll keep focusing on doing what I can control and when I get frustrated with the inevitable inequities there, I'll come here instead, ok?
Absolutely tell her that you do not intend to live in a sexless marriage! BUT, also tell her that you're willing to stop the LBs that have eroded her love for you and meet her ENs in a way that makes her feel loved and valued. Otherwise it sounds like a threat.
To get her to talk to Steve (I assume you know who he is now?), try this: "My goal is to have a marriage where we both are madly in love with each other. I've read a lot about this Marriage Builders program and I think it is right for us because I think it works. I understand that you may be a little skeptical and I respect that. However, I am asking that you join me for a conversation with Steve Harley before you make a final decision about whether this is for us or not. Just a chat on the phone, how about it?"
My H initially said no, no more counseling...I said it wasn't counseling, it was coaching...he said no...I said well I have an appointment with him on [date and time I knew my H would be available], I don't know what to do here and *I* need a coach, but I do wish you would join me so he can get both sides. Oh yeah, he was there to give his side, bwa-ha-ha. H was READY for SH to straighten me out.
Absolutely tell her that you do not intend to live in a sexless marriage! BUT, also tell her that you're willing to stop the LBs that have eroded her love for you and meet her ENs in a way that makes her feel loved and valued. Otherwise it sounds like a threat.
To get her to talk to Steve (I assume you know who he is now?), try this: "My goal is to have a marriage where we both are madly in love with each other. I've read a lot about this Marriage Builders program and I think it is right for us because I think it works. I understand that you may be a little skeptical and I respect that. However, I am asking that you join me for a conversation with Steve Harley before you make a final decision about whether this is for us or not. Just a chat on the phone, how about it?"
My H initially said no, no more counseling...I said it wasn't counseling, it was coaching...he said no...I said well I have an appointment with him on [date and time I knew my H would be available], I don't know what to do here and *I* need a coach, but I do wish you would join me so he can get both sides. Oh yeah, he was there to give his side, bwa-ha-ha. H was READY for SH to straighten me out.
Yep considering very much the chat with Steve. For now I'm trying to avoid LB's at all costs, even more so than the EN's. Fights equal 48 hours of starting over at ground zero every time. I can't afford that so for now I'm trying to make it pleasant enough to where I can work on the next step. Because the LB's from her are typically so frequent that we literally don't speak unless she's insulting me, I'm letting her know politely about each one about every other LB. This may not be the right way, but for now I need some momentum and if I call her on each LB, then it will inevitably lead to so much irritation that we'll never get anywhere.
I did call to plan a date night with babysitters and everything today. It was a weeknight date which she's never had a problem with, but she shut it down and pushed it off to a weekend. Instead of getting upset and looking at it as yet another push off, I took a deep breath and said, sure! A date on Friday is more important than nothing, in fact it is great despite her intentions.
Today was pretty pleasant all day. I'm just letting off the gas and giving her some space and letting things happen a bit more. I definitely think some of my own stress has creeped in her a bit. I have no life. I have friends, but none that I do anything with anymore. If we hang out it is always when our families and kids all get together. On the flip side my wife has a dozen friends she does stuff with. this is my mistake and I'm gonna make sure I call up some buddies and get some outlets as well. The only buddy I really can talk to about this now is getting a divorce so I don't think he's the best for advice at this point!
Thanks for everything I'm learning a lot and am in a good place tonight, I plan on it lasting but don't hesitate to slap me around if need be, ok?
Just be sure that you schedule your 15 hours with your wife FIRST.
Just an idea here, to disarm her insults/complaints: she says something snarky, and you respond with a smile, an "I love you. I'll work on that," and an affectionate gesture like squeezing her hand or kissing it. Then go work on it! I don't know what she's saying. Of course, if she's just viciously tossing out names, an "Ouch," is quite effective. Just "Ouch" and walk away.
But if it's something like, "Can't you take out the trash???" or "Why do I have to do everything around here???" or even "You don't know anything about Dostoevsky!", a smile and an ILU and a promise to work on it followed by action will be incredibly effective. With an added bonus of confusing the heck out of her if she's accustomed to you being her sparring partner.
Definitely don't turn to divorced/divorcing people IRL for advice. My H was in the habit of talking to single people, cheaters, and divorced people for marital advice. BIG mistake. Of course, the folks on here are better educated on MB than your regular run-of-the-mill IRL folk, even if they are divorced or former cheaters, so give them an ear.
A great piece of advice I heard in church was to only seek advice from people who already are where you want to be.
Just be sure that you schedule your 15 hours with your wife FIRST.
Just an idea here, to disarm her insults/complaints: she says something snarky, and you respond with a smile, an "I love you. I'll work on that," and an affectionate gesture like squeezing her hand or kissing it. Then go work on it! I don't know what she's saying. Of course, if she's just viciously tossing out names, an "Ouch," is quite effective. Just "Ouch" and walk away.
But if it's something like, "Can't you take out the trash???" or "Why do I have to do everything around here???" or even "You don't know anything about Dostoevsky!", a smile and an ILU and a promise to work on it followed by action will be incredibly effective. With an added bonus of confusing the heck out of her if she's accustomed to you being her sparring partner.
Definitely don't turn to divorced/divorcing people IRL for advice. My H was in the habit of talking to single people, cheaters, and divorced people for marital advice. BIG mistake. Of course, the folks on here are better educated on MB than your regular run-of-the-mill IRL folk, even if they are divorced or former cheaters, so give them an ear.
A great piece of advice I heard in church was to only seek advice from people who already are where you want to be.
Great advice! Yesterday was good all in all. This morning was pretty good, I made her coffee and put a note on there that said "you are appreciated". I got a "thanks for the coffee" from upstairs. She made one semi-snarky comment this morning about a bill that we owe that suggested that it was somehow my fault for some late charge that we incurred. It was something really small so I just let it go and the rest of the morning was ok. I called her friend this morning to see if she was free to come pick up my wife one night this week to get out of the house away from the kids and relax for a couple hours. Hopefully she'll appreciate that. I know that I need to get her time with me but for now she is just so tired and not in a place where she wants to even do that thus far. I can't force her to spend time with me right so I'm gonna have to take what I can get. The 15 hours a week rule is pretty challenging with a 4 month old baby needless to say.
Sorry I havent been around in a while .. been spending my much needed UA time with my wife lately in the evenings ... and works been busy, so I havent had a chance to get on here much.
Wow Hilltopper your sure stepping up to the plate! Your getting some great advice from some of the other vet posters. Looks good on you that your taking initiative and focusing on being the hubby your wife wants you to be and not letting your wifes negativity get to you too much. I know sometimes it can be frusterating .. but your doing all the right things. Your wifes love bank is most likely still in the red .. but as you keep filling it up she will eventually begin to respond to you in a much better manner as it approaches the neutral zone .. and then into the GREEN zone!
Keep it up!
Sorry I havent been around in a while .. been spending my much needed UA time with my wife lately in the evenings ... and works been busy, so I havent had a chance to get on here much.
Wow Hilltopper your sure stepping up to the plate! Your getting some great advice from some of the other vet posters. Looks good on you that your taking initiative and focusing on being the hubby your wife wants you to be and not letting your wifes negativity get to you too much. I know sometimes it can be frusterating .. but your doing all the right things. Your wifes love bank is most likely still in the red .. but as you keep filling it up she will eventually begin to respond to you in a much better manner as it approaches the neutral zone .. and then into the GREEN zone!
TY sir! Yes it is frustrating, but I WILL NOT blow up or fight with her despite her best efforts to make that happen. Its almost like if I let it get to me and fight then she is "off the hook" so to speak. I don't want her to be off the hook, I want her to see what I'm trying to be and have no excuse but to return the favor. I still see her reaction to many of the nice things I do such as the note I wrote her with her coffee as being short and not appreciative. I let her know the other day that these things are not with strings attached or alterior motives. Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Keep it up!
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
Thanks for the great news from your marriage, hopefully that is me months from now or sooner. To answer your question about my wife and I doing fun stuff together, she kind of pushes it away to be honest. I was trying to arrange for babysitters during the week for us to go out but she kind of shut it down as too much of a pain with the kids, school, etc. I don't automatically assume that this is because of me, I think a lot of it has to do with dealing with two kids and an infant and she's just tired. In fact a lot of this has to do with the birth of our third child. It kind of made it boil over as the little EN's I might have been getting were completely shutout as that attention was thrown to the baby. I guess I woke up one day thinking to myself, what has this become? We have no marriage whatsoever. The fighting started getting worse because I was demanding change and it was the absolute wrong time to do so with a new baby on our hands. All of it makes sense I guess and although I'm still very, very unhappy and unfulfilled at least I'm better prepared and have a plan in place. My wife still isn't reading LB yet, she has twice so far so maybe two chapters so the advice of suggesting that we do it together keeps getting pushed away so I'm backing off just a tad and am focusing on zero LB's which is very, very hard. I get unhappy, I stew about stuff, then I get silent, she knows it, then I tell her how I'm not getting this or that or that she hurt be, etc. I hugged her this morning cause I wanted to, she dropped her arms to the side and didn't hug me back(It's been this way as long as I can remember). I told her, "it would be great if you could hug me back when I hug you" and left it at that. Normally I would press her on it and come to conclusions about how she is feeling, why she does it, etc. I have a habit of getting in her head and she gets pissed deservedly so. The truth is it doesn't matter why she doesn't hug me back, it only matters that I express this form of affection as an important EN for me politely and respectfully. I have a hunch we'll get somewhere, but the patience side of me struggles after about 48 hours which is how long its been since our last big fight. I'm gonna be a good boy and be nice and avoid the LB's all day today and tonight. I'll check in later!
So I snooped on my wife's cell phone bill to see if there was anything concerning to me in terms of some kind of EA or other. I haven't found anything, but while looking at her statement I noticed something that concerned me big time. Yesterday she spent a total of 2.46 hours on the phone with various friends. The day before was a modest 1.7 hours of talk time. This doesn't include text time which happens all day as well. I've known for years my wife likes to talk and many women I know do in general. Should or could this be a red flag of sorts about her seeking others to fulfill her EN's? Do any of you women in this forum spend 2+ hours a day on the phone if not for work purposes? I need to get good at meeting her EN's, really good. I have no confidence in this area. She sent me her list and I sent her mine. She is not meeting any of mine as of yet and although I'm not ok with that, I just have to take the lead and rise above it. Her list is SO overwhelming to me I just don't know where to start. She mentioned Romance as a part of her Affection EN. I'm very affectionate in general physically, but I guess not any other way and I know this. I'm having a hard time not feeling stupid when it comes to this. What I'd really like to do is tackle romance and affection first and foremost before moving on to the rest, but I will be aware of them the other EN's as not to cause a LB. Help me be romantic! Here is a quote of her EN for Affection so you can read it for yourselves and come up with some suggestions for me:
"Affection: Where is the romance? Hmm I don't think you were even romantic when we dated and it's never really been your strong point. I'm not talking about flowers. I'm talking about follow through with a sweet idea, make a bath for me, a note, set up massages for us. Have the kids make me something and frame it. The most unromantic thing is I just have to have my needs met no matter what today, I don't care what else happens. Every girl likes a little romance or creativeness."
So I've done two baths, and three notes of late. I bought her some lotto tickets a couple times cause she digs that stuff. I ordered some new underwear from Victoria's Secret which she wears. I want to keep being thoughtful, insightful, and unique if at all possible. I definitely don't want to be cheesy! Do I feel stupid about the romance thing because of my own insecurities or lack of confidence? How do I get past that?
The simplest thing to do would be to ask her for more specifics on romance. The better thing to do would be to pay attention. The sneaky thing to do would be to VR her conversations with her friends.
Whatever she ranked as her #1 EN is where you need to start.
Have you filled out the LBQ?
The simplest thing to do would be to ask her for more specifics on romance. The better thing to do would be to pay attention. The sneaky thing to do would be to VR her conversations with her friends.
Whatever she ranked as her #1 EN is where you need to start.
Have you filled out the LBQ?
Have I or have both of us? I have she has not, like I mentioned before between the infant and her being disgusted with our marriage she's been very hesitant and standoffish about this whole thing. I'm not sure what you mean about VR(voice record?) her conversations with her friends. To find out about romance or to find out if she is fulfilling her EN's with her friends first?
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine?
Mine .. because neither one of us knew what an EA was until we discovered MB.
I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well.
Was she enthusiastic about this? Reason I ask is because your most enjoyable times should be spent together. There is a recreational enjoyment inventory that you can download and fill out together. It will help you guys identifiy activities that you both enjoy so you can spend some "fun" time together reconnecting at a social level to begin being intimate again.
Recreational inventoy link -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.htmlDo you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about?
Sure! I will tell you this much. Over the last 2 months especially since we have finished the love busters book, she has been apologizing for her negative behaviours and love busters! Well we have been together for 16 years (im 32) and this year she has apologized to me more than she has ever in our entire relationship! Like about 6 or 7 times now. Usually its me keeping the peace .. even if i feel im right and doing the apologizing. This didnt start happening though until her love bank for me was well into the green.
She now meets my top 5 needs on a fairly consistant basis. Especially since she has been taking maca root. It has totally helped her energy levels.
She told me to keep track of her cycle and warn her of her PMS week. She likes this because then it helps her identify her own unbalanced feelings. And is no longer offended when i mention its coming up.
SF has become amazing and is to the point now where shes initiating it often enough that i no longer feel like im starving emotionally anymore. Kinda like she knows im going to be hungry soon so she "feeds me" before it effects my mood. So it is becoming easier to initiate for her because im no longer "suffocating" her or "smothering" her as she used to indicate alot and associate it with my "neediness". She understands now its not just physical, but that us guys get the same emotional feelings that they do when they get intimate conversation.
So just keep doing your thing ... POJA EVERYTHING! ... fill her emotional needs as often as you can .. blow her mind. Stop reacting emotionally to her when she is being emotional. Be her "rock" and before ya know it .. it will all fall into place and you'll feel like you just met again and the puppy love will come back.
p.s. Your getting better at your "quoting" too .. good job!
I read a consistently theme in here which is the use of the word "we" as it pertains to reading the books, working the program, etc. I'd love there to be a "we" in all of this and there might be one day but for now I think I am so far in the negative in terms of her LB that I'm just not gonna get that commitment like I want it. Things are pleasant the last two days, but the workbook during our last fight was thrown to the ground by her. I won't take too much offense to it. I think it has more to do with me pressing too much and "teaching" her about Dr H's program which cause her, not an outright rejection of the principles, you know? I've gotta get out of the red and into the green before I can push her to dive into this with me. I would love to do the 15 hours with her but I don't think she wants to with me. This is hurtful. If anyone can think of some other ways to get her more likely to read the books I'm all ears.
I'll work on that. Good day yesterday one thing bothered me, she said I love you, I sat down next to her put my hand on her leg and gave it a squeeze, she said take your hand off my fat so I did. Does that sound like "don't touch me" or "I'm a little insecure after having baby?"
Insecurity. Be more sensitive to this and touch non-jiggly parts, like shoulders (especially where they meet the neck--that may be just me but I love that) and dish out verbal compliments on other parts to build her confidence for touching later. "Your legs look really good in those shorts." Let her catch you checking out her rear-end in an approving way. Come up behind her and run your finger down her spine and stop just above her bum. If you come up behind her to give her hug, try to embrace in the skinniest part--just below the breast. If she's sitting with her feet up, run your finger down the curve of her foot, unless she's really ticklish.
I could just ask her flat out and let the cards fall as they may! I guess I won't know if I try. I've been preaching so much however that she's tired of it, probably feels guilty maybe? I'm buying a little time in just avoiding LB's right now. This is day four so far and it feels good. My wife doesn't like to be rushed on anything in life, going somewhere, getting ready, deciding things, etc. I think I'll avoid 100% of all LB's the rest of this week and then casually almost nonchalantly suggest a call. Would this be a joint call or just a call with Steve and my wife? I guess I'm not clear on that.
Insecurity. Be more sensitive to this and touch non-jiggly parts, like shoulders (especially where they meet the neck--that may be just me but I love that) and dish out verbal compliments on other parts to build her confidence for touching later. "Your legs look really good in those shorts." Let her catch you checking out her rear-end in an approving way. Come up behind her and run your finger down her spine and stop just above her bum. If you come up behind her to give her hug, try to embrace in the skinniest part--just below the breast. If she's sitting with her feet up, run your finger down the curve of her foot, unless she's really ticklish.
I love my wife's body, it is great, she is just hard on herself. She has a great bum and she knows exactly to a tee how I feel about it. Compliments on how she looks are fairly common coming from me but they don't always have a good effect. I think my wife at this time thinks that any effort of any kind to fill a need, make a compliment, or touch her in anyway has but one motivation from me, sex. Believe me I'm dying to have sex with my wife, but most of all I want to feel loved by her and affection has a lot to do with that feeling for me at least. What I have learned here and from experience is that I can't try hard for 48 hours and get what I want out of this. That is my nature and that is how I handle things in my company, which is immediately. This is a relationship and far different from that strategy. In my mind I believe that consistency is key here so she knows that I will just compliment her, buy her a little something, hug her, kiss her, and make an obvious attempt at romance or one of her EN's because I want to make her happy, not because all I want is sex. There is no desire for sex and every time I think a good evening might turn into something she always rolls over and falls asleep. I don't even get a "maybe tomorrow night" courtesy comment brush off anymore. I don't ask anymore because it makes it worse.
Hill, in my marriage, getting an enthusiastic yes to sex often meant it was preceded by "Good morning" instead of "Good night", kwim? I don't have babies anymore, but I'm still beat by the end of the day. Perhaps a time-of-day adjustment would help your approach?
Hill, Get your wife some MACA ROOT! After I got my wife to try it (takes a few days to work, aprox 5 days actually) she will not be without it now. Absolutlely LOVES it. I take it too. Its a super food and whats called an Adaptogen. Do some research on it .. its very effective and DEF does all it says it does.
Heres what it did to my wife that i DEF noticed. She could attest to it if she posted. And yes she was very reluctant at first and skeptical but it surprised her.
1. First it totally helped her energy levels.
2. It reduced her stress by alot
3. It increased her libido a good fair bit.
4. It has made her mood during PMS weeks alot more tolerable.
Heres is the negative that she mentioned and so far only 1 thing.
1. Makes her period a fair bit heavier as the product claims to increase fertility so it takes a few days longer for her period to come than she used to.
Here is some links to do some reading on it...
www.macaroot.comwww.macatalk.comwww.macasex.comAlso check the wiki on it ... it has a great write up on it.
MNG
p.s. for me .. Maca root has decreased my recovery time when i work out. and it has lowered my stress levels .. and lowered my sex drive a bit so im not so ancy if its been a few days. Its a natural hormone balancer. It does NOT add horomones to your system .. but it allows your system to rebalance itself so if some of your endrocine system is exausted (such as child birth etc) it gives the proper nutrients to all your glands and allows them to produce the proper amount again. Or if your over producing it will allow it to cut back. etc.
p.s.s If you do descided to get it .. get it in capsule form ... NOT the powder form. The capsule form has all the starches removed.
Lol. Mr. Maca!
So, gave in, did some academic search;
Lepidium meyenii (Maca) is a cultivated root belonging to the brassica family
used in the Andean region for its supposed aphrodisiac properties. We carried
out a double-blind clinical trial on 50 Caucasian men affected by mild erectile
dysfunction (ED), randomised to treatment with Maca dry extract, 2400 mg,
or placebo. The treatment effect on ED and subjective well-being was tested
administrating before and after 12 weeks the International Index of Erectile
Function (IIEF-5) and the Satisfaction Profile (SAT-P). After 12 weeks of treatment,
both Maca- and placebo-treated patients experienced a significant
increase in IIEF-5 score (P < 0.05 for both). However, patients taking Maca
experienced a more significant increase than those taking placebo (1.6 � 1.1
versus 0.5 � 0.6, P < 0.001). Both Maca- and placebo-treated subjects experienced
a significant improvement in psychological performance-related SAT-P
score, but the Maca group higher than that of placebo group (+9 � 6 versus
+6 � 5, P < 0.05). However, only Maca-treated patients experienced a significant
improvement in physical and social performance-related SAT-P score
compared with the baseline (+7 � 6 and +7 � 6, both P < 0.05). In conclusion,
our data support a small but significant effect of Maca supplementation
on subjective perception of general and sexual well-being in adult patients with
mild ED.
Zenico, T. T., Cicero, A. G., Valmorri, L. L., Mercuriali, M. M., & Bercovich, E. E. (2009). Subjective effects of Lepidium meyenii (Maca) extract on well-being and sexual performances in patients with mild erectile dysfunction: a randomised, double-blind clinical trial. Andrologia, 41(2), 95-99. doi:10.1111/j.1439-0272.2008.00892.x
We sought to determine whether maca, a Peruvian plant, is effective for selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)-induced sexual dysfunction. We conducted a double-blind, randomized, parallel group dose-finding pilot study comparing a low-dose (1.5 g/day) to a high-dose (3.0 g/day) maca regimen in 20 remitted depressed outpatients (mean age 36+/-13 years; 17 women) with SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. The Arizona Sexual Experience Scale (ASEX) and the Massachusetts General Hospital Sexual Function Questionnaire (MGH-SFQ) were used to measure sexual dysfunction. Ten subjects completed the study, and 16 subjects (9 on 3.0 g/day; 7 on 1.5 g/day) were eligible for intent-to-treat (ITT) analyses on the basis of having had at least one postbaseline visit. ITT subjects on 3.0 g/day maca had a significant improvement in ASEX (from 22.8+/-3.8 to 16.9+/-6.2; z=-2.20, P=0.028) and in MGH-SFQ scores (from 24.1+/-1.9 to 17.0+/-5.7; z=-2.39, P=0.017), but subjects on 1.5 g/day maca did not. Libido improved significantly (P<0.05) for the ITT and completer groups based on ASEX item #1, but not by dosing groups. Maca was well tolerated. Maca root may alleviate SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, and there may be a dose-related effect. Maca may also have a beneficial effect on libido.
Dording, C., Fisher, L., Papakostas, G., Farabaugh, A., Sonawalla, S., Fava, M., & Mischoulon, D. (2008). A double-blind, randomized, pilot dose-finding study of maca root (L. meyenii) for the management of SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics, 14(3), 182-191. Retrieved from EBSCOhost.
Those are from peer-reviewed journals.
NOW my curiosity may be piqued.
Hill, in my marriage, getting an enthusiastic yes to sex often meant it was preceded by "Good morning" instead of "Good night", kwim? I don't have babies anymore, but I'm still beat by the end of the day. Perhaps a time-of-day adjustment would help your approach?
Morning sex hasn't happened since we were dating. She doesn't feel like it ever. I'm one horny guy, probably more so cause I never get any. I'd do it anytime anywhere, but my wife is more cautious. Maybe it is a hormone thing or low libido and I'm being too hard on myself and her? I'll take a look at Maca root, can you buy it at the drugstore?
I'll take a look at Maca root, can you buy it at the drugstore?
Any health food store.
I'm one horny guy, probably more so cause I never get any.
Bingo!
And the level of satisfaction achieved when you do also contributes!
LoL ... I cant help it. It had such a dramatic effect on my wife that I have to tell everyone about it.
Withholding sex is intentional no?
I want to understand sex in the eyes of both men and women. I must fess up, SF is right up there with Affection to me in terms of EN's. My wife as you know makes excuses and the sex one is pretty bad. I thought about it yet again after being turned down last night. She is intentionally withholding sex from me right? This isn't like a bad habit or not being an affectionate person in general right? She is making a conscious decision each and every day not to have sex with me. SF is an emotional need for me that speaks volumes about who the other person feels about me and loves me. After being turned down last night I expressed myself about it the best way I knew how without trying to make a SD. I said, "if another week goes by and the excuse about sex continues, I'll know that it isn't that your tummy hurts or that you're just tired any longer." She is running this morning, she wasn't too tired for that right? I think being SF would allow a lot of things to fall into place. By the way, we snuggled for 2 mins before bed which was quite nice. How she approached it wasn't though. It was a version of the "hop on and be quick" with sex. She said, "Ok hurry up I'm tired you got your two minutes of snuggle time." So we curled up and the body to body connection felt great to me. Then she rolled over and said ok i'm going to sleep. So I rolled over too, then I hear her checking her facebook account, then sending a text back to her friend about running tomorrow morning. I said, "I thought you were tired?" She said, "I am, geez your annoying."
In other news, its been pretty good. We got into it at first on Friday morning but talked much more than fought. I expressed my feelings much better and we learned more about the other. Its kind of like, "who is this person I'm married to?" I expressed frustration that I was just about perfect all week and although things were pleasant for the most part she's still reluctant to work as hard at this as I am. She admitted both things to me. She simply said, "I'm not you ok? I can't shift gears and be a different person tomorrow like you can." This is true I have the ability to make a decision, come up with a plan, and execute that plan almost immediately. Things are much more convoluted I suppose for my wife. She could tell I was annoyed this morning and I am. I'm watching baby at 5 in the morning while she goes running with her friend. I don't mind the need for bonding with her friends and we did spend time last night together watching a movie on the couch last night. It is kind of more of a priorities thing. My priority is her and getting our marriage back on track, I make no bones about it and she knows that. She says she wants things better, but she still has time for a ton of activities that don't involve me. I'm not a jealous person but I suppose this is either IB, or me just not being a person who can fulfill her recreational companionship needs. I got bad knees I can't run and we have 3 children so even if I could it would be tough. What I struggle with this morning is being completely honest with how I feel so often. Isn't there a fine line about shutting up here and there and choosing your battles?
Be honest with her. "I feel unimportant because you won't have sex with your husband because you are tired. However you can stay up and check your facebook and then get up early the next day to go running with your friend. And I did not sign up for a sexless marriage."
I'm just now having my morning coffee so I can't word it correctly but without DJing her you need to let her know that it is not okay to not take your needs as valid and try to meet them just because they are not her needs.
A lot of people try and meet the other persons needs that they think they should have. For example, a husband might lavish his wife with gifts. However she wants some communication from him. If he doesn�t spend some time verbally connecting with her, he could buy her a boat and it wouldn�t fill her #1 EN and he�s spinning a lot of wheels. And he�s prob. Fulfilling the ENs that he wants met rather than what she wants. Or he�s just stabbing at what he thinks she wants (I mean girls like gifts, right???). But then all we�re doing is throwing rocks at a target with our eyes closed and hoping we hit it.
After awhile of not getting our needs met, we get irritated and resentful. We feel neglected. We then want to stop doing for the other person.
You should ask your wife to post on here.
[censored] I think I messed up. My wife went to run this morning early, I go upstairs to do laundry and notice my wife's underwear on the ground. She changed her underwear before going on a run? This is bizarre so I sent her a text about it. She got home and I'm feeling zero trust at this point so I told her that I'm not sure I trust her because she gives me no reason to. She freaked out, dropped an f-bomb in front of my kids and ran upstairs. I pursued her, she said don't talk to me, is freaking out, hopped in the car and drove away.
It was a version of the "hop on and be quick" with sex. She said, "Ok hurry up I'm tired you got your two minutes of snuggle time."
This would insult me. She's giving you crumbs and you're taking them. Don't take the crumbs; a spouse deserves better. Let her know that you feel insulted by her 'offering' you two minutes.
She simply said, "I'm not you ok? I can't shift gears and be a different person tomorrow like you can."
This is simply refusing to work on herself and coping out. Be respectful but let her know this is just an excuse.
I'm watching baby at 5 in the morning while she goes running with her friend.
So don�t do this. It is not a need for to spend time with her friends away when she isn�t meeting any or very little UA time. The next time she wants to go for a run with her friend(s) and leave you with the kids, well, you have something else to do.
It's time for you to put a keylogger on the computer and put some recording software on her phone.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Well, good luck to you then.
And many of us on here haven't had infidelity just not great marriages that we have used MB to make them great marriages. I haven't had infidelity in my current marriage and at one point was dealing with a lot of the same issues you are. Not anymore.
Regardless if you think there's infidelity or not, you're going to get resentful about your needs not being met and it's going to poison the marriage. But that's up to you if you keep allowing yourself to be a doormat. A doormat=she basically does what she wants, says what she wants, and dismisses how you feel or what you need and you support it while you're just meeting her needs.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Um...
Who
told you to march up to her and tell her "I don't trust you!"
?
Really?
Anyone?
Did anyone here tell you to confront her because you found out she changed her underwear before she went running?
?
No?
Anyone?
Nobody here told you to puppy dog her, and confront her at every turn. That is what you decided to do on your own. That was NOT the advice you were given.
Nor would it be to install spyware on her phone, and then question her about every phone call after you hear it, which is what you would seemingly do, and then blame the board for giving you the advice.
So begins the same post many posters previous to you have made; it just ain't happening guys, you are wrong!
Within the next year, it will be "I'm back guys, and you were RIGHT!"
Which is too bad, because there will be a lot of wasted time in between.
You told your wife that you don't trust her? Why would you do that? Telling your wife you don't trust her is a LB, even if it's true.
Steve Harley told me "Trust, but verify." Any spouse who has nothing to hide will welcome being checked up on. A spouse who has nothing to hide would react to being checked up on by saying "You think I'm cheating? What am I doing to make you think that? Here, my life is an open book. I am completely open. What can I do to reassure you? What can I do?"
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
Wonderful.
Welcome to MB. I'm so glad you are here as often (like in my situation) the MB principles and guidelines are much more easily adopted if BOTH spouses are here posting and learning together [Mrs. Wondering posts here too].
MB is WAY better than traditional marriage counseling.
Unless you choose to buy the book (which are really cheap if you get them on amazon used) MB is much cheaper than traditional marriage counseling.
You say you've wanted your husband to go to counseling for years which is an indication that he's been the reluctant spouse in the past...well, I don't think he's as reluctant about MB so this is really sounding like a win-win.
I'm so glad you aren't having an affair as rebuilding a marriage is impossible with a third person in it. You have such an advantage over many of us here that arrived after infidelity crushed our marriages. It may not be roses but it is a starting place.
Again...welcome and please share more of your side of the story.
Mr. Wondering
tgrace, what we have been feeding him is getting you two to try and implement meeting each others ENs and getting rid of the LBs and spending some alone time together.
If you would read through this thread you would see that he is trying to become a better husband but is becoming resentful in teh marriage because he feels neglected, disrespected, and unimportant.
It seems as though you don�t feel his needs are important because they are not your needs. Yes, sexual attention and affection are needs�and they are important because he cannot go anywhere and get these needs taken care of without cheating. Essentially he is starving and you have the chance to feed him.
Saying that he won�t get sex because of this and that is using sex as a tool and a weapon.
How would you feel if he said, �you know, because of the way you acted the last two days, I�m not watching the kids so you can go on your runs or exercise� You would feel hurt and upset.
The goal here is simple. You two meet each others needs, stop irritating each other (love busters), and get in some alone time. Yes I know you have young children�most of us do. And the alone time is doable.
And, yes, we are only getting one side of the story. It would be nice if you posted here so we could get the whole story.
I'm in love with my family but very unhappy in my relationship with my wife and feel a huge empty hole.
This is from your husband's first post. I presume the reverse is likely pretty true as well...that being, YOU, too, also love your family but feel unhappy in your relationship with your husband and a huge empty hole.
These are complaints. Complaints in marriage are GOOD.
MB can help you fix this problem. MB is NOT counseling. It won't delve into your family of origin issues or draw out your inner child. It won't merely focus on fixing your communications problems like so many other marital programs due such that you end up being able to communicate with each other at the divorce court. It is a simply behavior program. Dr. Harley studied the behaviors and patterns of married couples that enjoyed enduring loves that lasted a lifetime. He then prescribes we learn and adopt those behaviors over the course of ONE year and see what happens. The idea is that by undertaking the actions of a loving couple will result in the couple being a loving couple.
Feelings follow action.
It's really pretty simple.
Please click on and review the "basic concepts" link at teh top of this page and out on the main marriage builders website. Give MB the chance. It's so easy and your husband is already here and somewhat familiar with it so there is no time like the present to work on rebuilding your marriage. If not for yourself or your husband...do it for your kids who deserve better than you both are giving them right now.
Mr. Wondering
Also...with jobs and three kids (including an infant), MB is much easier to schedule. The forums and the main website with a plethora of FREE information are available 24/7.
Counseling once a week at some office is so 1985.
With MB you don't even need a babysitter.
Mr. W
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
How long ago did this happen? I'm betting this has been troubling him losing a close friend he felt very connected to. Once he was gone (moved away...not totally gone per se) I bet the "dark hole" he felt in your marriage expanded for him.
I love him very much and will make an effort.
Awesome. I think you should start your own thread. My wife and I both posted here and it's very difficult to share a thread. The forums aren't really set up to referee your disputes. We can help YOU and we can help him. It's peer coaching...NOT peer counseling. He will have people helping/coaching him and you will have other "online friends" coaching you. With both of you here a lot of context is added but again...we are not good referees. You have to let his feelings and perceptions be his and yours yours. Very tough to do. But doing MB
together made all the difference for Mrs. Wondering and I.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
Unfortunately, most people that show up here ARE dealing with affairs and infidelity and unless and until such extramarital relationships are over and done with...complete "no contact" there is no "how to fix things". Ruling out and/or ending affairs is STEP NUMBER ONE here at MB. Again...I can't express how happy we all are for YOU and Hilltopper that there is not an affair. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy. Lets move on from the snooping and underwear fiasco and get down to business. Start a new thread and share your thoughts and feelings about your marriage.
Mr. W
p.s. - Happy to see you want to try MB. Have you and Hilltopper printed off and completed the Emotional Needs survey yet?
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
Welcome to MB, tgrace.
It would be a good idea for you to start your own thread and stay off your husband's. Posting on his thread just leads to the two of you arguing on the thread!
Please remember that people have been trying to help your H with the problems he described in your marriage. Marriage Builders is not your enemy, and it is not causing the problems in your marriage.
No one said you shouldn't be able to go on a run. However, when the two of you are having issues scheduling quality/alone time together, that's where the emphasis should be.
And I totally get it. I do my running/exercising early in the morning before anyone is up or late at night after everyone has gone to sleep. But if my wife and I never or very rarely had any alone time together and I was out exercising, she would feel resentful and wonder why I can make time to exercise but I can't figure out time for the two of us to spend time together. The key here is to schedule time together for the two of you and then schedule everything else.
And we don't believe that this is one sided at all. Both spouses are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. He's just as accountable as you are for meeting needs, eliminating love busters, and scheduling the alone time.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
This board operates on the story of the one present.
If both are present, they are encouraged not to post on each other's threads.
Jealousy is a natural response to a marriage that is in a state of crisis or threat, not a problem.
Transparency, and checking on spouses is defending a marriage, not "being jealous" or "being controlling."
"Giving each other space" creates independence, which is harmful to the marriage.
You are here now, so get this; this program is about creating romantic love and an interdependent relationship.
It is not just for couples who have or are experiencing infidelity, and in those cases, may help avoid it in the future.
You two are at the tip of the slippery slope which leads to marital meltdown, and "marriage counseling" won't do much to fix it. In fact, a lot of these "counselors" empower one spouse or another into the very behavior that will DESTROY a marriage every single time.
You won't find people here encouraging, or preaching tolerance for abusive or independent behavior.
You both have some work to do.
If she were enthusiastic about having sex with you, this would not be a problem. Women need 2 things to feel enthusiastic about sex, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. What has happened in your marriage is that your relationship has been given such a low priority in your lives, that you have both fallen out of love. With her lovebusters and your comments about her body, I see that spiralling downwards.
The 2 main areas I would address immediately would be 1. lovebusters and 2. spending 20+ hours a week of UA time. If you can't or won't do that, then this will never work. Period. I know its hard with little children, but many folks here manage to get in their UA time with careful planning.
Nagging your wife about sex is not the solution, though. The solution is for both of you to fall in love again.
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."
hereAnd I would strongly advise your wife to get on board here, HT. I don't think she understands that she is losing her husband. And if she doesn't do something to stop this bloodbath, she is headed to divorce.
Do you hear me, grace? You think you are getting away with mistreating your husband, but you are not. He is almost at the point where he has given up. When that happens, it is VERY HARD to turn it around. Do you want to be a single woman raising all those kids and holding down a 60 hr a week job? When a wife works this hard to push her husband away,
she will eventually succeed. Think on that..
Welcome to MB, grace. We are all happy to see you!
Hill, if you have concerns about the advice you've been given on this board, please do get with Steve Harley, both you and grace. My experience between the board and SH was quite different, mainly because SH heard both mine and my H's side. I highly recommend him.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here.
Hilltopper, I'll bet if you look closely you'll see that the issues in your M are no different than before. You're just starting to confront them with your wife.
I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls.
How do you figure this would cost you your marriage? My H can do all of that and more. He could follow me around with a tape recorder and I wouldn't care. He could hire a PI and I would drive slow enough to keep the PI close when he's tailing me. I couldn't care less if my H wanted to confirm that his trust in me is not misplaced. Do you think your wife can say the same things?
The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap.
No offense taken, Hilltopper. And yes, my experiences absolutely taint my consciousness now. Thank God! I'll never go back to the blind way things were before.
You sound exhausted and overwhelmed, Hilltopper. I'm sorry to hear that. Take a breather.
For those of you who have been feeding my husband that I am cheating on him, this is not the case. I respect and love myself, my husband and my children. Yes I am guilty for lack of affection and sex!! Many times you do not hear the other side.I have asked my husband on several occasions to go to counseling which he refuses and swears by marriage builders. There are reasons for my lack of affection and we have many stresses which also add. When I got home I was and am disgusted that my husband asked me why I changed my underwear this morning to go on a run?? Assuming I was meeting someone. He is more than welcome to call my friend, log my computer and phone. There is nothing to hide. My runs are a break and stress reliever from having three kids, one being a newborn. Any progress we made which has been destroyed for the next two days equals no sex. Get it!!! This is the cycle!!!
Welcome, tgrace - good to see you here! Would you consider starting your own thread? It's usually better for us to interact with the two of you separately. And you're not having an affair! Excellent! Would you say that you would be interested in learning about the tools on this site that will help you have a fantastic, passionate marriage?
I'll have to go back and re-read Hill's beginning posts, because I'm missing the part about you running. Is this an issue for him? Do you run alone? With a group? I ask because I am a runner, too. I run by myself whenever I can fit it in to our day. I just ran yesterday after work - my H had a work function, so I had a few hours before he got home. So I'm sure you'll appreciate that I threw those running shoes on the second I got in the door!
tgrace, I went back and scanned through about 6 pages of posts, and I'm not seeing where anyone thinks you're having an affair. Someone may have suggested it at some point, because unfortunately it is a common thing to see here. We'll ask that pretty early in as a way of tailoring our responses to the poster.
I DID see a lot of disconnect between the two of you - not a tough thing to resolve. I noticed that you said you would give MB a try - excellent! I would suggest you start your own thread and give us your marital story as you see it.
And by the way - we are volunteers here. You're going to see a lot of people encouraging you to post here and read Dr. Harley's books. This info is priceless and has saved and renewed countless marriages. We get nothing from this but a good feeling if we can pay it forward and help someone else do the same. Just letting you know that up front - some new posters assume we're employed by Marriage Builders and get paid to be here. Nope.
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
This is the first post that I can find that mentions the possibility of infidelity in Hilltopper's marriage, and it is Hilltopper who mentions it. In his next post he goes to to say that he spied on her phone.
What did I miss? Hilltopper, why did you blast this board for causing the outburst you directed at your wife?
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it.
Thought you would find this interesting, Hilltopper:
"I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe." Dr. Willard Harley
And he talks in the infidelity video (on the home page here and on youtube) about a lady that was upset with him for making her paranoid after reading his book "His Needs Her Needs How to Affair-Proof Your Marriage"... He basically says that you SHOULD be worried about an affair because unless you are protecting against one (boundaries, transparency, having an integrated lifestlye, meeting each other's ENs, etc) you WILL be the victim of an affair.
If your M is not in a good place and you are lovebusting each other, now you can't really blame that on us, can you? You two need to own your actions and lovebusters and get them under control...not blame them on other people.
anyway, hope you two will stick around. I think the MB forums are awesome and could really help you! Good luck!
Well, good luck to you then.
And many of us on here haven't had infidelity just not great marriages that we have used MB to make them great marriages. I haven't had infidelity in my current marriage and at one point was dealing with a lot of the same issues you are. Not anymore.
Regardless if you think there's infidelity or not, you're going to get resentful about your needs not being met and it's going to poison the marriage. But that's up to you if you keep allowing yourself to be a doormat. A doormat=she basically does what she wants, says what she wants, and dismisses how you feel or what you need and you support it while you're just meeting her needs.
I agree and I am resentful of my needs not being met, my wife knows this and will no doubt read this which is fine. All I can do is speak from the heart and let my wife know how I feel. I thought a lot about replying to these posts and although I have a part of me that wants to "keep the peace" and not offend her, I know the right thing to do is just be honest and see if we can come to some agreements on what is important in meeting each other's EN's.
I don't think my wife treats me like a doormat and does whatever she wants, I do however think that I neglected her EN's for so long during the first part of our marriage that she had to find alternate sources to find them. That would be her friends, running, etc. She is running right now in fact, but she let me cuddle a bit with her this morning before she left so its a small victory. She gave up wanting to meet my EN's but I really think I started it!
Either way we know where we stand and although it will be a lot of work I am excited at the possibilities.
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here. I basically told my wife for the second time that I don't trust her, she hates my guts for it. It probably wasn't even fair. I believe in many of the principles here and I think there are parts of me that have improved after reading the book. I DO NOT however believe that I'm better off after interacting with many of you. The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap. I just can't do this anymore so I'm not gonna read here anymore, sorry. I'll read your replies, no doubt many of which will tell me otherwise, but I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls. I'm sorry you or some of you had infidelity issues but that is not the case here. Best of luck to you all.
Steve, Dr Harley, if you read this great, I hope you do. I'm sure you enough experience in helping marriages where my comments likely won't effect you and that is fine. You do however need to be aware of what's going on here in an open forum, ok?
Um...
Who
told you to march up to her and tell her "I don't trust you!"
?
Really?
Anyone?
Did anyone here tell you to confront her because you found out she changed her underwear before she went running?
?
No?
Anyone?
Nobody here told you to puppy dog her, and confront her at every turn. That is what you decided to do on your own. That was NOT the advice you were given.
Nor would it be to install spyware on her phone, and then question her about every phone call after you hear it, which is what you would seemingly do, and then blame the board for giving you the advice.
So begins the same post many posters previous to you have made; it just ain't happening guys, you are wrong!
Within the next year, it will be "I'm back guys, and you were RIGHT!"
Which is too bad, because there will be a lot of wasted time in between.
I'm not gonna justify that response. Read the entire thread, you can see some very clear cut advice to "get snooping" among other things.
Hill, I can't find what you're talking about. Regardless, snooping on an emotionally distant spouse is never a BAD idea. You're just supposed to keep quiet about it instead of blowing up and accusing them of things you are merely suspicious about. I don't know how you approached it, but if my H asked me why I'd put on clean underwear, I'd simply tell him.
tgrace, what we have been feeding him is getting you two to try and implement meeting each others ENs and getting rid of the LBs and spending some alone time together.
If you would read through this thread you would see that he is trying to become a better husband but is becoming resentful in teh marriage because he feels neglected, disrespected, and unimportant.
It seems as though you don�t feel his needs are important because they are not your needs. Yes, sexual attention and affection are needs�and they are important because he cannot go anywhere and get these needs taken care of without cheating. Essentially he is starving and you have the chance to feed him.
Saying that he won�t get sex because of this and that is using sex as a tool and a weapon.
How would you feel if he said, �you know, because of the way you acted the last two days, I�m not watching the kids so you can go on your runs or exercise� You would feel hurt and upset.
The goal here is simple. You two meet each others needs, stop irritating each other (love busters), and get in some alone time. Yes I know you have young children�most of us do. And the alone time is doable.
And, yes, we are only getting one side of the story. It would be nice if you posted here so we could get the whole story.
Well said Kilted. I can't get my needs filled elsewhere and frankly I don't want to. I do feel neglected and I think not only are my needs no respected by my wife, I think there is a lot of society in general that feels husbands should feel wrong or guilty for wanting sex from their wives, no?
Alone time is tough with three kids but I'm committed to making this happen. My wife and I had a discussion about EN's getting met more quickly. I think there is a disconnect here. I see stopping LB's and meeting each other's EN's as something you do immediately because we both have the ability to. Feelings of deep love will come later of course, but for now we both can make a conscious choice to do what is necessary right? I'd like some input here from anyone about the subject.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
My wife IS withholding sex from me, she said this was just a typo so I needed to point that out, not to have anyone take sides, but because it is relevant to the meeting of EN's that is all. On the flip side I've admitted to intentionally not meeting her EN's specifically because I felt an inequity which is just as wrong and selfish. I can see "running time" being your own time and I'm ok with it. What I'm not ok is with the argument from my wife that she "doesn't have time" to do this frequently. If she has time for running and a variety of other things then she has time for me, she just chooses not to. We discussed this last night as well and I think she knows how I feel about it. On top of that I've never had a problem with any of her activities and I will likely get behind her a lot more with them if and when many of my EN's are met, you know?
PS I started reading marriage builders and took a week off. And I only just recently asked about counseling. Our major problems in my opinion have just recently started (pretty much when the baby arrived) And the reason I asked about counseling is he is very hard to speak or argue against and I can't always put all my thoughts together or communicate them properly. I will give marriage builders a try.
This is true, I debate well and my wife not so much. It is a big reason communication can be so tough. All she needs to know is that I don't ever mean to make her feel silly or bad about herself while discussing anything. She has said countless times that I make her feel stupid with my tone. I'll be honest I have a hard time seeing it, but the fact that she says it means its there one way or another. I can work on this more with immediate feedback when it happens I think.
No one said you shouldn't be able to go on a run. However, when the two of you are having issues scheduling quality/alone time together, that's where the emphasis should be.
And I totally get it. I do my running/exercising early in the morning before anyone is up or late at night after everyone has gone to sleep. But if my wife and I never or very rarely had any alone time together and I was out exercising, she would feel resentful and wonder why I can make time to exercise but I can't figure out time for the two of us to spend time together. The key here is to schedule time together for the two of you and then schedule everything else.
And we don't believe that this is one sided at all. Both spouses are 50% responsible for the state of the marriage. He's just as accountable as you are for meeting needs, eliminating love busters, and scheduling the alone time.
Thanks I made this point earlier. Alone time is tough, but not if we make it a priority in our lives. If it becomes a priority it WILL happen.
I want to reread what you wrote. She LET YOU cuddle for a few minutes and now she's off running. This is what I call living off crumbs. This is her putting her selfish wants before the marriage.
I will say that I'm very fitness minded. I applaud those that keep fit and healthy. However, here is key time that you two could have that alone time talking, touching, cuddling, loving each other.
So she�s out running while you�re sitting wishing she�d spend more time with you. More than likely you�re going to hate it when she goes on those runs and it�s going to become a source of conflict. And what happens if you decide you want to do something at 5am for yourself? Then what? Then you two have a big fight about who gets to do what because you both feel entitled. I used to run off and play indoor soccer. However this was taking time away from my wife and from our time to connect together. When she brought up that she wished I�d stay home to hang out with her, I�d get mad. The problem here is I wasn�t looking to accommodate our marriage (POJA)�the marriage wasn�t a priority. I mean, I was just going to go and play an indoor game for an hour�what�s the big deal?! After I/we got on board with both of us looking at what we can do to improve the marriage, one of the things I had to do wasI change my indoor soccer playing time to really late at night on the nights she had been working long shifts and would be passed out and I�d be sitting on the couch doing nothing. So I changed my recreational activity time to one that didn�t take away from time for us.
Here�s what I would do tonight. Both of you tag team and get the kids in bed together (my wife usually bathes them while I clean up the after-supper kitchen mess). Then fill out the lovebusters sheets and discuss them together. Be honest with each other. Do not get mad at what the other person says�how they feel is how they feel. It is what it is; it isn�t right or wrong. The purpose is to stop doing things that irritate each other. But if one of you or both of you get mad about what makes the other person mad, it defeats everything. Then if you have time fill out the ENs stuff and discuss that. And finally schedule your 15-20 hours of alone time together.
The solution is for both of you to jump in this head first. I know you�ve heard it before but call Steve Harley at least for a couple sessions.
Ok so I will say some of my comments are insulting I have to admit. And sometimes there are just not appropriate times for sex and sometimes the bottom line is I'm tired from being a "boob machine' and waking up all night with the baby. I don't with hold sex from him, but if we fight it is a turn off and sex doesn't happen. I'm not into the make up sex. By the way I've only said 'hop on once and I wasn't in the mood.' And the cuddle comment was last night with a too much wine stomach ache (which he says is just an excuse)We just need to do nice things for each other and the sex will follow and I know I need to make more of an effort.
We have never been jealous of each other and definitely give each other space to go and hang out with friends. I have never questioned my husband on going out for beers and in fact I encourage it and he used to go out once or twice a week with his closest friend until he just recently moved.
For you to suggest I shouldn't be able to go on a run is inconsiderate. I make sure I go early and get things ready for the baby so I don't disturb his day or morning. Running is my own selfish time in the world to just have a clear mind.
I could go on and on for a tit for tat but that wouldn't get me anywhere. There is always another side you are not hearing as to why things are going in the wrong direction. I just didn't decide to be mean to my husband one day and continue. I love him very much and will make an effort.
I think you guys should be giving suggestions how to fix things not suggesting that affairs are going on!!!!!
This board operates on the story of the one present.
If both are present, they are encouraged not to post on each other's threads.
Jealousy is a natural response to a marriage that is in a state of crisis or threat, not a problem.
Transparency, and checking on spouses is defending a marriage, not "being jealous" or "being controlling."
"Giving each other space" creates independence, which is harmful to the marriage.
You are here now, so get this; this program is about creating romantic love and an interdependent relationship.
It is not just for couples who have or are experiencing infidelity, and in those cases, may help avoid it in the future.
You two are at the tip of the slippery slope which leads to marital meltdown, and "marriage counseling" won't do much to fix it. In fact, a lot of these "counselors" empower one spouse or another into the very behavior that will DESTROY a marriage every single time.
You won't find people here encouraging, or preaching tolerance for abusive or independent behavior.
You both have some work to do.
Wow this might be tough to hear for my wife. Independent behavior can definitely harm a marriage, I never thought of it that way. I admit that my wife probably began doing other things in response to me not fulfilling her EN's during the first part of our marriage. Although her instincts tell her that she "needs" to do this stuff, I think the plan here is to minimize it and focus on getting some Undivided Attention with each other asap! In my book this means focus on us first and when appropriate and there is time left then run or whatever, not the other way around.
If she were enthusiastic about having sex with you, this would not be a problem. Women need 2 things to feel enthusiastic about sex, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. What has happened in your marriage is that your relationship has been given such a low priority in your lives, that you have both fallen out of love. With her lovebusters and your comments about her body, I see that spiralling downwards.
The 2 main areas I would address immediately would be 1. lovebusters and 2. spending 20+ hours a week of UA time. If you can't or won't do that, then this will never work. Period. I know its hard with little children, but many folks here manage to get in their UA time with careful planning.
Nagging your wife about sex is not the solution, though. The solution is for both of you to fall in love again.
"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement."
hereAnd I would strongly advise your wife to get on board here, HT. I don't think she understands that she is losing her husband. And if she doesn't do something to stop this bloodbath, she is headed to divorce.
Do you hear me, grace? You think you are getting away with mistreating your husband, but you are not. He is almost at the point where he has given up. When that happens, it is VERY HARD to turn it around. Do you want to be a single woman raising all those kids and holding down a 60 hr a week job? When a wife works this hard to push her husband away,
she will eventually succeed. Think on that..
Melody,
I'm not sure what comments about my wife's body you are referring to you. I can assure you this is not a problem, I think my wife and her body are incredibly sexy as do others! Its not a matter of opinion of my wife being attractive or not!
In regards to your comments about my wife getting away with mistreating me and stopping this bloodbath, that is friggin intense. This is not a "see I told you so moment" for me to point out to my wife. I just think it makes it that much more real to have an outside perspective on what is going on. I've given up many times already and I'm scared that one day I won't want to pony up again, in fact terrified. I don't think my wife is "working hard at pushing me away" is she? That doesn't make any sense, why in the world would she want to do that?
I'm definitely messed up from this forum. My marriage is infinitely worse after following the advice of some of you in here.
Hilltopper, I'll bet if you look closely you'll see that the issues in your M are no different than before. You're just starting to confront them with your wife.
I'm not gonna throw away my marriage because someone tells me that get keylogger software and to record my wife's phone calls.
How do you figure this would cost you your marriage? My H can do all of that and more. He could follow me around with a tape recorder and I wouldn't care. He could hire a PI and I would drive slow enough to keep the PI close when he's tailing me. I couldn't care less if my H wanted to confirm that his trust in me is not misplaced. Do you think your wife can say the same things?
The problem is your own experiences taint the advice that you give. I went from trusting my wife 100% to accusing her of cheating within a month of being here? You can be offended if you want, I don't give a crap.
No offense taken, Hilltopper. And yes, my experiences absolutely taint my consciousness now. Thank God! I'll never go back to the blind way things were before.
You sound exhausted and overwhelmed, Hilltopper. I'm sorry to hear that. Take a breather.
I agree with you actually now that I think about it. The problems are coming to a head because I'm forcing the issue. Yes it is uncomfortable for both of us but I don't think anything would get resolved had I not explored this all. As I've said before this doesn't make me less culpable in the marriage for where it is today and in fact doesn't really matter. We are here now and that is all that matters.
Do you think with consistency that she'll start seeing I mean it and perhaps be more grateful in return?
Absoultely... As her love bank fills and you plug all the holes in it by stopping the LB's Then eventually you will pull yourself out of the negative love bank balance and back into the positive .. and eventually start gaining interest on your investment! But you gotta get "out of debt" so to speak. When she sees your consistancy (like i previously mentioned pages ago) and you dont drain the Love bank with some sort of love buster (whatever she describes them as) then you will be well on your way to having her fall deeply in love with you again.
I myself am really only a few months into what I would call recovery (no real infedelity tho thank god) And we are unwinding the downward spiral we were on and the rollercoaster I was on is finally coming to a stop and we can get back on the merry go round lol. But I took since 2007 (not consistantly tho unfortunatley as I struggled with love busters alot and so did my wife)
Your doing great Hilltopper! Put a smile on your face .. and let it all roll off your back and continue being consistant in EN meeting for your wife even if shes not meeting yours ... she eventually will.
p.s. did you see my post on how to quote? Make sure your reply is after the [/quote ] command
When you say "no real infidelity" are you referring to your own situation or mine? I explored it but I don't think there is any infidelity of any kind, emotional or other. I'm trying not to be so needy and insecure so I'm heading out to watch baseball with a buddy which I stopped doing in an effort to force the issue with her each night! I also called her good friend so that she could go out Thursday night for some fun as well. I think she was into it
which is awesome! She used to be that person in the relationship which makes is so strange the tables have flipped wouldn't you say! Do you mind, without telling me the details, what things you see in your marriage that I have to look forward to and day dream about? I'm pleased that you are in recovery and great stories I think would do wonders for me.
This is the first post that I can find that mentions the possibility of infidelity in Hilltopper's marriage, and it is Hilltopper who mentions it. In his next post he goes to to say that he spied on her phone.
What did I miss? Hilltopper, why did you blast this board for causing the outburst you directed at your wife?
Yes you are missing something Sugar. I was confused by his comment about infidelity and thought he was referring to my situation when he was really referring to his own, that is all. I'm not blasting the board about the decisions I made all on my own to investigate infidelity at all, that was my doing. What I'm concerned about is a fairly quick jump from an unhappy marriage to a possible affair. You all have more experience than me, I took the advice, and checked it out. I think the jump to infidelity if nothing changes after a few months might be more appropriate is all.
I want to reread what you wrote. She LET YOU cuddle for a few minutes and now she's off running. This is what I call living off crumbs. This is her putting her selfish wants before the marriage.
I will say that I'm very fitness minded. I applaud those that keep fit and healthy. However, here is key time that you two could have that alone time talking, touching, cuddling, loving each other.
So she�s out running while you�re sitting wishing she�d spend more time with you. More than likely you�re going to hate it when she goes on those runs and it�s going to become a source of conflict. And what happens if you decide you want to do something at 5am for yourself? Then what? Then you two have a big fight about who gets to do what because you both feel entitled. I used to run off and play indoor soccer. However this was taking time away from my wife and from our time to connect together. When she brought up that she wished I�d stay home to hang out with her, I�d get mad. The problem here is I wasn�t looking to accommodate our marriage (POJA)�the marriage wasn�t a priority. I mean, I was just going to go and play an indoor game for an hour�what�s the big deal?! After I/we got on board with both of us looking at what we can do to improve the marriage, one of the things I had to do wasI change my indoor soccer playing time to really late at night on the nights she had been working long shifts and would be passed out and I�d be sitting on the couch doing nothing. So I changed my recreational activity time to one that didn�t take away from time for us.
Here�s what I would do tonight. Both of you tag team and get the kids in bed together (my wife usually bathes them while I clean up the after-supper kitchen mess). Then fill out the lovebusters sheets and discuss them together. Be honest with each other. Do not get mad at what the other person says�how they feel is how they feel. It is what it is; it isn�t right or wrong. The purpose is to stop doing things that irritate each other. But if one of you or both of you get mad about what makes the other person mad, it defeats everything. Then if you have time fill out the ENs stuff and discuss that. And finally schedule your 15-20 hours of alone time together.
The solution is for both of you to jump in this head first. I know you�ve heard it before but call Steve Harley at least for a couple sessions.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Women don't respect men that just keep the peace. You need to let her know exactly how unhappy you are. That you want a better marriage...a great marriage. That you want to become a great husband.
Let her read through the rest of this thread. Then ask her to create her own thread. It really helps when we have both the husband and hte wife posting seperately.
In regards to your comments about my wife getting away with mistreating me and stopping this bloodbath, that is friggin intense. This is not a "see I told you so moment" for me to point out to my wife. I just think it makes it that much more real to have an outside perspective on what is going on. I've given up many times already and I'm scared that one day I won't want to pony up again, in fact terrified. I don't think my wife is "working hard at pushing me away" is she? That doesn't make any sense, why in the world would she want to do that?
Are you saying that her lovebusters along with the fighting is drawing you CLOSER? How would you characterize it?
She's prob not intentionally pushing you away. But her continued behaviors and actions are pushing you away.
It'd be good if she posted her because we'd see both sides of the fence.
Ok maybe I was keeping the peace. My wife will likely reply with a "whats the big deal" so be it. I want to make an immediate change in our lives to spend as much time together as possible period.
Women don't respect men that just keep the peace. You need to let her know exactly how unhappy you are. That you want a better marriage...a great marriage. That you want to become a great husband.
Let her read through the rest of this thread. Then ask her to create her own thread. It really helps when we have both the husband and hte wife posting seperately.
Just told her now that I "stewed" at her running for 2 and 1/2 hours while I sat here with the kids. She told me "we'll spend time together then fine!" Hardly the attitude of someone that really wants to. She told me I was the cause of her not wanting to spend time with me. This is friggin bad news man, she displays behavior of not being will to do what this takes for one reason or another. Melody Lane is right, the way this is going she is gonna push me away until I leave her, she'll be in an apt with all three kids that I visit, etc. But hey, at least she won't have to deal with me wanting a better relationship, what a pain that is! What kind of a selfish jerk am I for wanting a better marriage? I'm gonna be honest at every point of this day and every other day. Its gonna be rough because I have issues with how she treats me pretty much all day. There is no concern for husband in this relationship at all. A couple of kisses and a peaceful day yesterday isn't enough for her to leave me with the kids for 2 1/2 hours this morning on a run. Its my fault for telling her that I thought she shouldn't go. Its also my fault for not telling her it was ok to go to bed cause she was tired and not read the workbook. I was honest with her just now and she looked at me like I was an alien. I told her I didn't care about anything else we do as long as we get to spend time together while the kids are all napping, reading this forum, talking, cuddling. Her attitude was clear, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH ME! She'll do it to keep the peace but unless I initiate or force the issue it simply won't happen. I hope she reads this and I hope she does her own thread, and I hope she takes this deadly serious because I'm not messing around anymore. She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
[She told me "we'll spend time together then fine!" Hardly the attitude of someone that really wants to. She told me I was the cause of her not wanting to spend time with me.
That is a good start! You can start by asking her what it would take to make you more enjoyable? Are you unpleasant to be with? Ask her what she would like to do the most when you are together. Ask her what you can do to make your time more enjoyable. This is the kind of open, honest communication that will help you both become more attractive to spend time with.
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
Punished later.
Well,
as I seem to be the only one who thinks to understand the wife's side, here goes: (my own very subjective opinion)
The wife is annoyed and irritated and doesn't feel her needs are being met. The husband: also annoyed and irritated and also feels his needs are not being met.
Hill, you remind me a bit of my husband (I know, subjectively)
You are obviously a person who thinks about things, and likes to analyze things, and you seem to be earnestly trying to understand her side as well. (which is good, but...)
On the other side, you seem to be telling your wife your take on things, and are telling her what she does wrong and what you are doing to improve things, while she isn't.
I know you are also aware of your own mistakes.
Your wife , on the other hand, seems to have zoned out, for whatever reason, may it be post-baby-stress (come on people, she has a 4-month old and on top of that a special needs kid), needs not met for a long time, broken nights, long-term stress, feeling the husband doesn't carry his weight, may it be true or not.
The sex thing:
I am going to point this out for you: l love sex. love it, love it love it, can't get enough of it. Cannot endure going without it for whatever time period. Period. Would love to do it 5 times a day and more, wherever, whenever, OK.
That's not the point. and I love my husband to bits. Cannot imagine a more perfect husband, honestly. And I never thought I would say something like this, but he is a person who likes to lecture. He can go on and on about things, and is always right, well, most of the time anyway and he is someeone who can see his own mistakes.
Well if we look at each other like 'that' as we often do, and go upstairs (or not) and he starts to lecture me, well I never thought I could be a person not to want to have sex, but it kills my mood. Really does. Instantly. And me being a person who is always in the mood. I have yet to refuse to have it, because I do not believe in that, but my enthousiasm needs time to bild up again. For me it maybe takes half an hour or a few minutes, or he is sorry, but now imagine I would not be such a sex freak......
Just hate to be lectured. Like he is my daddy, or teacher or something. Cannot stand it.
And eveything Hilltopper has said to this point, points out one thing. He is the lecturing type (subjective I know, forgive me when I am mistaken)
You cannot make a woman fall in love with you, by telling her what to feel, what to do, what she should have been doing all along and that she should not be feeling what she is feeling.
On top of that, from your responses, Hiltopper I get the impression, that your mood is a bit unstable at the moment. One moment you are full of hope, and everything is going in the right direction, and the other moment you want to quit marriagebuilding because it doesn't help.
Hold on a sec. You have a 4-month-old-baby too. You also have the broken nights and the stress and a stressed wife, as your wife has a stressed husband.
This will not work wonders whithin a week. Think long-term, and secondly, both of you need a break. It may not be possible now, but you have to have som other subject to talk about besides the marriage not going so smoothly at the moment.
Be realistic and if you are lecturing your wife, please stop it and let Steve H. lecture the both of you.
God bless, happyheart
Hey, Hill, ML is very right ... if you want a good marriage, if you want your wife to spend time with you, then you need to plan to work VERY hard to make that time enjoyable. You sound pretty sarcastic and frustrated here. I can empathize with frustration, and I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, too, but sarcasm and frustration are not attractive. I strongly encourage you to work on putting a lid on this stuff and focusing on what you can DO to make yourself enjoyable to spend time with. When you are enjoyable enough to spend time with, you probably won't have to demand that your wife spend time with you, because she will WANT to!
I do encourage you to keep tabs on your wife enough to rule out any sort of an affair. Odds are, she just wants to get away from you because she perceives you as a demanding, sarcastic person who is no fun to be around. But if she's got a close male acquaintance out there he will make it impossible for you to be attractive to her, ever, by comparison.
HOWEVER, do
NOT ever go confront your wife again about this without evidence, okay? NOBODY here will advise you to do this. This is just a way to become a jerk. And if you want to save your marriage, you are going to have to learn how to not be a jerk. IF you find evidence of an affair, please come back here and bring us what you have and ask for some help to figure out what to do, okay? Please rely on the good and helpful folks here instead of reacting to your emotions and rushing in without a plan and torpedoing your chances.
And tgrace, I know you may still be reading ... please start your own thread, okay? We know this isn't all on you and that your husband has a lot of work to do. He can be helped with that ... and you can do your part as well, but the first thing is probably going to be to make sure that you are open and transparent with him without fighting with him. Fights are absolutely detrimental to a marriage. (Ask me how I know.
) BOTH of you have some work to do to learn to eliminate fights, so I encourage both of you to stop spending time pointing fingers and start learning what you individually can do different to change the tenor in your marriage.
She can learn how to meet my EN's and stop the LB's and I mean like today or I see no future for us at this point in time.
Wow. Go look up SELFISH DEMANDS, Hill.
Then call Steve.
I have a question about the run: did you tell her before she went that you didn't want her to go? Or did you say nothing and then punish her when she got back?
Punished later.
Great honesty, Hill! Let me encourage you to go put your arms around your wife (if she'll let you) and apologize. Plan on having a talk about her runs LATER, for now just focus on apologizing for punishing her.
Yeah, Hill, that was really unfair for you to withhold your feelings about the run until after she'd done it. I can kinda understand--you don't want to keep her from enjoyment, and maybe you didn't even realize how much it would bother you until she was gone. Here's how you can deal with that:
Recognize that she didn't do it to punish you. She didn't even know you wanted her to stay home.
When you did decide to tell her that it bothered you, BE KIND. "i know you love to run and i love for you to do it. I want you to be happy. I was a little more funked out than I expected when you left this morning. Can we talk about adjusting your running schedule so that I'm happy with it, too? I was thinking if I had another hour of your attention before you left, I'd be happy to deal with the kids when they got up. And if I could get a chat over coffee when you get back, I'd spend the entire time looking forward to it, rather than funked out and grumpy."
Is that doable, Hill, for the future? Regardless of her response? You need to be loving toward her, otherwise all you will get is her defensiveness, and you will never know what her rational response is. Like markos, ask me how I know.
Why do I keep agreeing with CWMI? Now only if she'll be enthusiastic about that loud Hawaiian shirt :p
I do like the way she worded about your wife's jogging habits. That is the first step toward becoming skilled at POJA. Hopefully she'll agree to chop off an hour so y'all can have an hour together and she'll still get an hour and a half running time.
Come to think of it, how exactly far is she jogging in 2.5 hours? That's a ton of road time.
Why do I keep agreeing with CWMI? Now only if she'll be enthusiastic about that loud Hawaiian shirt :p
I'm quite enthusiastic about bold clothing! I am not your wife, though...so...I don't think it matters. :p
(psst...one of the gals from our community group once commented on how my bold colored clothing was too 'look at me!'...right before booting me for not wanting to particiapte in GNO at bars, lol.)
Total chaos after the run this morning. Not sure I'm a mind reader, but I was on the receiving end of punishment. Just had an hour talk which seemed to really help. Thank goodness my head hurts!
Just an update to say I'll be starting my own thread tomorrow.
Total chaos after the run this morning. Not sure I'm a mind reader, but I was on the receiving end of punishment. Just had an hour talk which seemed to really help. Thank goodness my head hurts!
Just an update to say I'll be starting my own thread tomorrow.
Please start that thread, grace. I'd like to reply as a fellow runner. I'll wait til you've put up your thread.
HIlltopper .. I just wanted to apologize if anything I said contributed to your feelings of craziness. I only offered you my opinion from my perspective on how I used marriage builders and what I did to win my wife back over. I also understand your frustrations towards your reluctant spouse. I gave examples and mentioned that this is not going to be a fast fix .. it took many years to get to here and it may take awhile to get back to the way you want things. I believe it was once said that this is a marathon, not a 50yard dash. I understand you have a 4 month old and a few other children .. and that is VERY taxing on your wife. So I understand that aswell and how that affects your wife .. she probably feels "touched out"
AFter reading your replies after my last post, especially after your frustrated blow up blaming post .. I began to wonder if what I had said had any value or impact at all.. I am kinda new to advice giving and can only provide you with my own point of view from my own experiences.
Vets: Thank you for saving this one ... I didnt even know how to respond at first, so I stayed away to think about it .. but you guys chimed in with all the right stuff ..so i am thankful of your awareness.
Hilltopper ... Its also great to see that your wife descided to post and is willing to start her own thread. Stay on track .. follow the MB plan. These hard times will eventually all be in the rearview mirror if you stay the course and follow the advice.
MNG
Well,
as I seem to be the only one who thinks to understand the wife's side, here goes: (my own very subjective opinion)
The wife is annoyed and irritated and doesn't feel her needs are being met. The husband: also annoyed and irritated and also feels his needs are not being met.
Hill, you remind me a bit of my husband (I know, subjectively)
You are obviously a person who thinks about things, and likes to analyze things, and you seem to be earnestly trying to understand her side as well. (which is good, but...)
On the other side, you seem to be telling your wife your take on things, and are telling her what she does wrong and what you are doing to improve things, while she isn't.
I know you are also aware of your own mistakes.
Your wife , on the other hand, seems to have zoned out, for whatever reason, may it be post-baby-stress (come on people, she has a 4-month old and on top of that a special needs kid), needs not met for a long time, broken nights, long-term stress, feeling the husband doesn't carry his weight, may it be true or not.
The sex thing:
I am going to point this out for you: l love sex. love it, love it love it, can't get enough of it. Cannot endure going without it for whatever time period. Period. Would love to do it 5 times a day and more, wherever, whenever, OK.
That's not the point. and I love my husband to bits. Cannot imagine a more perfect husband, honestly. And I never thought I would say something like this, but he is a person who likes to lecture. He can go on and on about things, and is always right, well, most of the time anyway and he is someeone who can see his own mistakes.
Well if we look at each other like 'that' as we often do, and go upstairs (or not) and he starts to lecture me, well I never thought I could be a person not to want to have sex, but it kills my mood. Really does. Instantly. And me being a person who is always in the mood. I have yet to refuse to have it, because I do not believe in that, but my enthousiasm needs time to bild up again. For me it maybe takes half an hour or a few minutes, or he is sorry, but now imagine I would not be such a sex freak......
Just hate to be lectured. Like he is my daddy, or teacher or something. Cannot stand it.
And eveything Hilltopper has said to this point, points out one thing. He is the lecturing type (subjective I know, forgive me when I am mistaken)
You cannot make a woman fall in love with you, by telling her what to feel, what to do, what she should have been doing all along and that she should not be feeling what she is feeling.
On top of that, from your responses, Hiltopper I get the impression, that your mood is a bit unstable at the moment. One moment you are full of hope, and everything is going in the right direction, and the other moment you want to quit marriagebuilding because it doesn't help.
Hold on a sec. You have a 4-month-old-baby too. You also have the broken nights and the stress and a stressed wife, as your wife has a stressed husband.
This will not work wonders whithin a week. Think long-term, and secondly, both of you need a break. It may not be possible now, but you have to have som other subject to talk about besides the marriage not going so smoothly at the moment.
Be realistic and if you are lecturing your wife, please stop it and let Steve H. lecture the both of you.
God bless, happyheart
I do lecture, I fully admit that, big fault and LB of mine. I guess I get so frustrated at a lack of progress that I force the issue incorrectly. I know I can't lecture her into love. My mood unstable, how'd you guess?
Its more than unstable, I'm a wreck. I go from hope to despair almost hourly. I'm gonna make an attempt to stop the lecturing stuff as I know it doesn't make this go any quicker.
No attempting. You just do it. If lecturing her is an LB (and to whom wouldn't it be) then stop.
Remember it's taken you two years to get to this state of conflict. It's going to take awhile to get out of it.
Stop the LBing completely. If your boat has holes, you're still sinking unless you plug them up. The LBs cause holes for her love towards you to sink out.
Go to your wife tonight and ask her nicely if you two can sit down and fill out the LB and EN sheet and talk about it. Tell her you're sorry for pushing things so hard, you just want the marriage to be great but you've been going about it the wrong way. Don't lecture her why she should be or why you two should be doing X and Y. Let her know you want to be a better husband, the husband she deserves but the only way you can do that is for her to tell you and show you what she needs/wants from you/from the marriage.
This is not a race; it's a journey.
HIlltopper .. I just wanted to apologize if anything I said contributed to your feelings of craziness. I only offered you my opinion from my perspective on how I used marriage builders and what I did to win my wife back over. I also understand your frustrations towards your reluctant spouse. I gave examples and mentioned that this is not going to be a fast fix .. it took many years to get to here and it may take awhile to get back to the way you want things. I believe it was once said that this is a marathon, not a 50yard dash. I understand you have a 4 month old and a few other children .. and that is VERY taxing on your wife. So I understand that aswell and how that affects your wife .. she probably feels "touched out"
AFter reading your replies after my last post, especially after your frustrated blow up blaming post .. I began to wonder if what I had said had any value or impact at all.. I am kinda new to advice giving and can only provide you with my own point of view from my own experiences.
Vets: Thank you for saving this one ... I didnt even know how to respond at first, so I stayed away to think about it .. but you guys chimed in with all the right stuff ..so i am thankful of your awareness.
Hilltopper ... Its also great to see that your wife descided to post and is willing to start her own thread. Stay on track .. follow the MB plan. These hard times will eventually all be in the rearview mirror if you stay the course and follow the advice.
MNG
Thanks for the kind words. Can I ask you all something? Have you seen so many thousands of posts where one spouse swears about not cheating only to come crashing down down the road? About 20% of you won't let this infidelity thing go? It keeps coming back over and over. This is a recurring problem and is not allowing my wife and I to move forward to some degree. The "keep tabs on your wife" thing keeps coming back repeatedly and it bothers both of us tremendously. My wife said nothing is going on, she was horrifically destroyed for having me even consider it and as a result we can't get past it. I have no proof nor do I believe anything of the sort is going on, but many of you keep bringing it up. At this point I have to wonder why, do some of you not believe my wife at all, if so why? No sex? Is it something she said? As we sit here now, my wife has asked me to do whatever I need to do to make myself feel secure that nothing is going on. She appears to have nothing to hide, no fear of anyone "finding out" anything at all. Can we leave it at that? I want to get to feeling hopeful more than one hour at a time ok? I would appreciate if the suggestions focus on this goal from here on out. I love my wife, I don't think she is cheating at all.
No attempting. You just do it. If lecturing her is an LB (and to whom wouldn't it be) then stop.
Remember it's taken you two years to get to this state of conflict. It's going to take awhile to get out of it.
Stop the LBing completely. If your boat has holes, you're still sinking unless you plug them up. The LBs cause holes for her love towards you to sink out.
Go to your wife tonight and ask her nicely if you two can sit down and fill out the LB and EN sheet and talk about it. Tell her you're sorry for pushing things so hard, you just want the marriage to be great but you've been going about it the wrong way. Don't lecture her why she should be or why you two should be doing X and Y. Let her know you want to be a better husband, the husband she deserves but the only way you can do that is for her to tell you and show you what she needs/wants from you/from the marriage.
This is not a race; it's a journey.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
About 20% of you won't let this infidelity thing go? It keeps coming back over and over. This is a recurring problem and is not allowing my wife and I to move forward to some degree.
To be honest before you told us that she freaked out and said she hated you for "not trusting her", I don't think that many people said anything about any affair outside of just to double check...which is prudent advice given your independent lifestyles and given that A's happen in over 60% of M, which probably is lower than the true # considering that many affairs go undiscovered.
But then after you told us of her reaction, I think it created some more interest because Dr Harley says that getting angry and offended when being questioned is typically a smokescreen of a cheating spouse.
Regardless, the answer is for you two to be transparent and to open all areas of your lives to each other and start spending more time together. It wouldn't matter if 100 people on this board started telling me that my H was cheating on me, it wouldn't upset me and I would feel confident that that wasn't possible because we spend all of our free time together and I have access to all areas of his life.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
ps ~ Conversely, if my H accused me of cheating or told me he didn't trust me, I would go to whatever lengths to show him that wasn't the case for as long as it took.
But again, he would most likely feel pretty confident that that wasn't possible because our lifestyles are so integrated and has access to every area of my life.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
Fact of the matter is, that if something doesn't change then the weakening of your marriage can lead to one or both of you falling into the trap of infidelity, or divorce.
I've been right where you are now, HT. And I didn't go looking for help, I just silently imploded.
It's not an easy thing to be prioritized at the bottom of our spouse's list of priorities. And the more we allow that to happen, the further down the list we can fall.
The sad truth of the matter is, that it is in the best interest of our children that we put our spouse first, so that they can be raised in a loving, supportive home.
The reason that your posts are causing fights is because you are taking these posts as an opportunity to educate each other.
KNOCK IT OFF.
If you can't handle implementing the concepts without using the advice of posters as fodder against each other, then go to individual phone coaching through the coaching center on this site.
Do not read each others threads, do not post on them. At this point you can hardly act like civilized human beings toward each other.
Each of you needs to understand that your threads are about
you, and not the other spouse.
Nice evening right now! My wife kissed me on the lips I enjoyed it very much!
Fight again! Just kidding, believe it or not we are sitting side by side playing a game on our iPhones together. It's coming together I think, hope.
I stand corrected, no attempts just action. Thanks Kilt! I assume you're more fellow Scot?
A bit. I have a lot more Irish in me. My grandfathers grandparents came from Ireland. The biggest deviation we have is my mother is Venezuala.
All (well almost all) are here because we had a lot of the same issues that you have in your marriage now that we have used this program and forum to help make things better...great.
The forums can be on the very honest side and it can be a bit abrasive to some because we don't like hearing what we're doign wrong. Both you and your wife are LBing each other like crazy. If you're LBing all the time, it's not going to do much to improve things by meeting ENs. So the LBs have to stop first.
Remember that we all want you to succeed. But we all use a thing called radical honesty.
Wife is irritated again. I'll be honest as I just was with her, I'm kidding myself and all of you if I said I was 100% positive nothing outside of our marriage was going on. I apologize for choosing to defend my wife's feelings over telling you all how I really feel. I have no proof. All I can say is that she shows no affection to me at all and it hurts. I told her the "burden of proof" shouldn't be on me snooping around until I find something. The feeling of uncertainty should mostly go away when I see and feel affection and love. I don't right now so I consider the possibility despite the odds that something might be going on because I have no reason telling me otherwise. With a four month old, two children, no odd behavior on her part, all of it adds up to nothing. The one thing I base this off of is the fact that she shuts me out and has shown a pretty poor track record of improving this despite my clear cut communication that this is my most important EN. I asked her tonight if she would snuggle with me on the couch and she ignored it. She sent a text and did a couple of things on her phone. She said it "went over her head" which might actually be true. To her credit she also politely asked if I could ask that only after the baby goes to bed. Something like this spoke volumes about her effort to meet this EN of mine. Something this small is enough to make me consider the possibility of an affair. I don't know if it is worse to consider a spouse might be having an affair or to be a spouse that is not having an affair and knowing their husband doesn't fully believe them. Either way it sucks for both and one thing I know for sure, is we will not progress further until she puts this thought to rest. I freely admit to you all that we are not making progress. My wife did her first post and showed me one response. She said some things were helpful but that you all blasted her quite a bit too like you did to me. To her credit she is reading HNHN right now which is great. She definitely is curious at the replies in this forum but she also at this stage in the game told me that it just causes us to fight and is harmful. Tell me it gets better please.
Fact of the matter is, that if something doesn't change then the weakening of your marriage can lead to one or both of you falling into the trap of infidelity, or divorce.
I've been right where you are now, HT. And I didn't go looking for help, I just silently imploded.
It's not an easy thing to be prioritized at the bottom of our spouse's list of priorities. And the more we allow that to happen, the further down the list we can fall.
The sad truth of the matter is, that it is in the best interest of our children that we put our spouse first, so that they can be raised in a loving, supportive home.
The reason that your posts are causing fights is because you are taking these posts as an opportunity to educate each other.
KNOCK IT OFF.
If you can't handle implementing the concepts without using the advice of posters as fodder against each other, then go to individual phone coaching through the coaching center on this site.
Do not read each others threads, do not post on them. At this point you can hardly act like civilized human beings toward each other.
Each of you needs to understand that your threads are about
you, and not the other spouse.
Last night after talking we settled into a groove and spent some time on the couch together side by side. My wife displayed affection to me for the first time in a long time and I think we had a pretty good time. No sex afterwards but that doesn't bother me because the effort was there. What I learned after a pleasant evening and pleasant morning is that despite an effort to show me affection, my instincts tell me it may not continue and that scares me. In our discussion last night my wife had me read a paragraph out of the book about how meeting emotional needs, particularly sex is difficult if she doesn't feel like it. She doesn't feel like it because we fight all the time. Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
If you both work, she will get past it. Telling you about it is the first step...not comfortable but can't be skipped if you want to move foreward.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!
I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?
We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!
For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.
It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.
Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!
God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!
Hilltopper - here's the cool thing about all this - it can all turn around for the better!
I fell into a funk or fog or whatever you want to call it for about 4 yrs. During that 4 yr period SF was pretty much non-existent. When I woke up and started to realize the neglect and I started applying MB principles, it was hard to sit around and be told no everytime I initiated. I originally took it as - dang - rejected again. In my wife's mind - it was why won't he leave me alone - doesn't he know I love him and I just can't turn on the SF feelings immediately?
We've gotten past this finally. I kept filling and keep filling her love bank. It's one of my top priorities! She knows where I stand and she fills mine by being more receptive and not saying no all the time and we did settle on a minimum of SF monthly that was mutally acceptable - dang it - did we just POJA???!!!!
For my wife and I - it's been a time of healing past hurts and straightening out current problems and sometimes just going with the flow and being there with the UA time as much as we can now. We now flirt and play with each other daily whereas for a long long long time our marriage and relationship was dead.
It's good your wife is here. Mine still thinks MB is a bunch of kooks but she dies like the positive changes so I guess we are not all bad.
Good luck on your journey and keep those love busters down to a minimum. Talk with your wife and don't hesitate to inquire and ask what she thinks about things. Just like you can't read her mind - she can't read yours either!
God bless you both and Good journeys with MB!
Being told no really sucks. After a while I just assumed it was a no and pretty much stopped asking. I hate that it has gotten to this point but there is nothing I can do now but just move forward and fix it. I'm thrilled my wife is here on this forum with her own thread. After getting some positive, but apparently a lot of negative feedback she said something along the lines of, "I'm done with it. I'll read but I won't spend time on this forum." I respectfully encouraged her to stay. I think the curiosity alone will keep her coming back. You all smacked me around too when I first came here and it was hard to take. I think many times our expectation of what to expect here is different from the reality. When I first came here I thought I'd get a "Ohhh, poor Hilltopper, what he has to endure from his wife every day...." Instead it was more of a "stop behaving like an [censored] and LBing your wife all day". Makes me laugh now and I'm sure my wife is just rebelling against getting slapped up side the head a bit. Keep at it with both of us!
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Okay, Hill, will you do me and yourself a favor? Act on the positive actionable things she says, and ignore the rest for now. You can get so busy being positive that you don't have time to berate, so get busy, sir.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Use these;
Emotional Needs -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdfLove Busters wifes -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdfhusband's
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdfFill those out, work from there.
The good news, Hill, is that YOU have a measure of control over aversion and fighting. That's great news, in fact! She's told you why there is a problem, now dig into the why's and fix them. You are in an enviable power state right now. Ask her what would make her feel like having sex. Stop her if she starts talking about why she won't. Tell her to put it on the LBQ, because right now all you want to know is what DOES make her feel like it, and the discussion of the don't's is on the schedule. [note a time, agree on a time, you two do need to discuss that, just not all at once] NO SEX happens until you both are in enthusiastic agreement about it, remember?
SHE IS HERE. You're golden, man. I'm happy for you!!!
I asked her the question about what DOES make her feel good in an email right now. We'll see what she says. I know what DOESN'T turn her on quite clearly. Her EN email to me about a month ago described "pleasant day = pleasant feelings = sex". We've had many pleasant days so that isn't it. It obviously takes a lot more than not fighting for her to desire sex with me.
Use these;
Emotional Needs -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdfLove Busters wifes -
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdfhusband's
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdfFill those out, work from there.
We have the workbook at home. We signed the contract and identified LB's and EN's, marked the top five for each. I started on the "avoiding SD's part" yesterday. I'll ask my wife if she can do a section or two with me tonight.
Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.
If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.
I think it would help you two tremendously to review the enemies of conversation.
The Enemies of Good Conversation
The conversation you and your wife once shared was enjoyable for both of you. You looked forward to talking to each other. But lately, it's not at all pleasant. In fact, it's something you often do out of duty rather than choice. That's because you have developed habits that make your conversations unpleasant. I call those habits Enemies of Good Conversation.
The First Enemy of Good Conversation is using conversation to force agreement to your way of thinking. It's okay to negotiate with your spouse, but it's not okay to be disrespectful. Negotiation should start with a problem and end with a mutually acceptable way to solve it. When disrespect enters the picture, you not only fail to solve the problem, you leave with hurt feelings.
If you are thinking, "I'm right and you're wrong," watch out! You are just an utterance away from disaster. The Love Buster, disrespectful judgments, will not straighten your spouse out, as you hope. Instead, it will drive your spouse away from you. At first, you will develop emotional distance with your tactics, as your superficial conversation demonstrates. But eventually it will lead to physical distance -- separation or divorce.
Instead of trying to force agreement to your way of thinking, discuss your differing perspectives with respect. Your spouse's point of view is worth considering. After you fully understand it, you may be persuaded to her way of thinking.
Quite frankly, couples are easily influenced by each other when they are respectful. Their joint wisdom is more profound than the wisdom of either of them separately, and they know that. But that wisdom is uncovered only through respectful persuasion, never through disrespectful judgments.
Also in these two pages was the description of "sexual aversion". I'm fairly certain my wife was telling me in her own way that she has an aversion to having sex with me. Not only does this not feel good, but it scares me on a bunch of different levels. I'm afraid my insecurity in this relationship is far from healed and if my wife can't mentally get past this aversion, it might make the path to that healing much longer.
It may not be a true sexual aversion, HT, but rather it could be that there are too many lovebusters going on. Dr Harley says when couples learn not to lovebust and meet ENs, most bedroom problems go away.
If you are having any AOs, that is the FIRST thing I would focus on, HT. Dr Harley has said nothing else can be fixed if there are AOs.
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure. I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking. I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration. My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
I wasn't sure and that's why I also posted the enemies of conversation link for you as well.
I had to work on my own AOs (emotional ones) and learn to walk away when I am upset or getting frustrated and in the opposite way also walk away when I see my H starting to get upset or frustrated as well. It helped tremendously when we stopped this cycle!
Keep reading and working. You guys are on the right track. It will take some time for you two to both break your bad habits (pls see Dr Harley's link on instincts and habits!) But once you form new habits, it will all be almost, well, easy. Hang in there
Hilltopper ... I do not think your wife has an "aversion to sex" per say .. but a lack of an emotional connection to you. Bring back the connection first and build it up ... and stop with the sad eyes when you do not recieve what your hoping for.
Be glad your wife is here. And give it TIME for the MB community and advice and books to grab a hold of her.
Basicly .. SLOW DOWN and stop being so emotional and just continue to meet her needs without expectations for now ... and get back to reconnecting at an emotional level without sex for now.
MNG
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
HIll, if your wife has told you to your face that you have a temper .. and you dismiss her complaint by saying .. "well so and so has temper" that is a disrespectful judgement on your part.. She is TELLING you that you do .. and in her eyes .. its causing love bank withdrawls. IF she says you have a temper .. then you do! We all do in fact. Its possible that your wife is more sensitive to your "temper" than you realize because you dismiss her feelings about it.
I did that to my wife too .. she would say the same thing to me. "honey your yelling at me" And i would exclaim "no im not im simply trying to get my point across!"
The point is ... in HER mind .. I AM yelling .. becasue she is not me ... and is on the recieving end. She has better hearing than I do .. so what I precive as yelling .. and what she precieves as yelling are 2 very different situations. So I had to learn to adjust my own tone so I didnt come across as yelling .. even if i was frustrated. Why? Because she was sensitive to my frustrations and regardless if i thought i was yelling or not .. it was withdrawing love units faster than i could replace them because it WAS yelling TO her.
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
I hold things in because bringing them up historically gets shot down with my spouse telling me, "you are reading into things", or "you are overreacting", or "you shouldn't feel that way." In other words it has historically been pointless to bring anything up that bothers me so I just hold it in. If that means I'm dishonest and avoiding conflict, can you blame me? I am working on this clamming up however. I haven't seen that movie so I don't know what anger issues Adam Sandler had in that movie, maybe you can explain. Ever since someone on this forum suggested that "its not ok for her to tell me how to feel" I've felt good about it and empowered a little bit. My feelings about EN's or LB's are my feelings, no one else's.
You can be open and honest regardless of what anyone else is doing. It's a choice. As is being kind and loving. Your choice, Hill. So yes, you are to blame for being dishonest and a conflict avoider.
HIll, if your wife has told you to your face that you have a temper .. and you dismiss her complaint by saying .. "well so and so has temper" that is a disrespectful judgement on your part.. She is TELLING you that you do .. and in her eyes .. its causing love bank withdrawls. IF she says you have a temper .. then you do! We all do in fact. Its possible that your wife is more sensitive to your "temper" than you realize because you dismiss her feelings about it.
I did that to my wife too .. she would say the same thing to me. "honey your yelling at me" And i would exclaim "no im not im simply trying to get my point across!"
The point is ... in HER mind .. I AM yelling .. becasue she is not me ... and is on the recieving end. She has better hearing than I do .. so what I precive as yelling .. and what she precieves as yelling are 2 very different situations. So I had to learn to adjust my own tone so I didnt come across as yelling .. even if i was frustrated. Why? Because she was sensitive to my frustrations and regardless if i thought i was yelling or not .. it was withdrawing love units faster than i could replace them because it WAS yelling TO her.
Sorry I'm a very literal person and I tend to debate things in literal terms. I do not have a temper at least in the dictionary sense of the word, but my wife gets offended when I hold things in rather than expressing myself, and then when she asks what it is I tell her not only the most current issue, but the previous 5! That is not fair to drop a bomb like that once a day or so I'm discontinuing that and not sweating "the small stuff".
You could be right about it just being too many LB's. I assume you are referring to AO's based on something my wife wrote on her post because I've never discussed it here in this thread? I do get frustrated and clam up for sure.
Here's the thing. You need to address issues before they get to the point of frustration. If you get frustrated, you need to walk away and come back later. You still have to address them, though. Clamming up solves nothing, and in fact frustrates your wife, because she knows you have an issue and aren't addressing it.
I might even be angry at times, but AO's are definitely not something I do very often unless I'm being yelled at. In fact I think my wife would describe me as a very calm individual that thinks quite a bit before speaking.
She describes you as someone who "stews" over issues. Why are you thinking so much? Simple, you are readying yourself to fire off a disrespectful judgment. You want her "see things your way" when you commit to making a statement.
Holding off on speaking your feelings in a respectful manner until you are "being yelled at" is both being a conflict avoider, and being Dishonest by omission.
I say this next part knowing that this forum is not about trying to disprove the other spouse's argument ok? I tell you because it made me think of AO's and how they affect me in my marriage. My wife when she gets frustrated with me pointing out something that she's done or not done that is hurtful or makes me feel bad, she typically raises her voice just below a yell in frustration.
Then address how you "point it out." Quit trying to straighten her out, and simply state your feelings about a particular action. If she wants to argue about it, DON'T ENGAGE. Say, "I feel this conversation is no longer safe, and we will talk about it at another time." If she continues to bait the argument, walk away.
My wife to my face has described me as having a temper which is pretty much way off the mark. I've seen a temper in some friends and so has she, I don't have one at all. I think she is referring to my habit of holding things in and then letting several out at one time rather than bringing them up right when they occur? I really don't know, I'm sure we'll find out.
Adam Sandler, Anger Management. That's what you sound like.
I hold things in because bringing them up historically gets shot down with my spouse telling me, "you are reading into things", or "you are overreacting", or "you shouldn't feel that way." In other words it has historically been pointless to bring anything up that bothers me so I just hold it in. If that means I'm dishonest and avoiding conflict, can you blame me? I am working on this clamming up however. I haven't seen that movie so I don't know what anger issues Adam Sandler had in that movie, maybe you can explain. Ever since someone on this forum suggested that "its not ok for her to tell me how to feel" I've felt good about it and empowered a little bit. My feelings about EN's or LB's are my feelings, no one else's.
Her reactions are Disrespectful Judgments.
Clear enough.
It's also not Ok for you to tell her how she should feel.
For instance;
Sorry I'm a very literal person and I tend to debate things in literal terms.
This puts you in a DJ position with your wife. Because you are "literal and debate things in literal terms," you place the expectation on her to do the same. That is a Disrespectful Judgment.
You are here, this is your thread, you keep YOUR SIDE of the street clean, capice?
Additionally, you have to address a the "previous 5" things because you are a conflict avoider, and you have 5 unresolved issues digging at you as well as whatever the current issue is.
How has that strategy worked for you so far?
Not so well.
Hill, I'm a very literal debater as well, with the added bonus of NOT being a conflict avoider. I'm a flipping JOY to live with, lol. One piece of very valuable advice I got from Steve Harley was to SLOW DOWN--I can state my complaint, and even if I have a hundred workable solutions already figured in my head, I need to back off and give my H room to work out some solutions for himself. Perhaps this would be valuable to you, as well.
Complain, once. Then wait.
State your opinion. Then shut up.
What you are doing is "kitchen-sinking" your wife. You've both learned some bad habits over the years, and now is the time to start un-learning them.
One of the biggest is this idea that you either need to have an argument over something, or hold it in. There is a middle ground that CWMI described, and if she can do it (a woman who I can tell LOVES debate), then I bet you can do it as well.
Something that may help with this, is doing a drive-by. Walk up to her, say something nice, and then "honey, when you did X yesterday I felt really hurt. Could you please not do that anymore?" And then walk away. If she follows to argue, don't let it get started. Acknowledge anything that she says, but disengage.
If your wife is an arguer (as I am) she may try to give a reason (excuse) for her actions, but you need to stand firm without getting angry. Say "yes, I understand you have reasons for doing that, but I'm just letting you know that it hurts me."
The harder part of this is the reverse where she complains to you about something you've done. You need accept the information and let her know that you will do something about it. And no "yeah-butting". Yeah I did do that, but you deserved it because...
Rough night with grumpy baby tonight! We are trying to rally and get her down to hang out. We are fine just buying our time to get her down man!
Hill, I'm a very literal debater as well, with the added bonus of NOT being a conflict avoider. I'm a flipping JOY to live with, lol. One piece of very valuable advice I got from Steve Harley was to SLOW DOWN--I can state my complaint, and even if I have a hundred workable solutions already figured in my head, I need to back off and give my H room to work out some solutions for himself. Perhaps this would be valuable to you, as well.
Complain, once. Then wait.
State your opinion. Then shut up.
T/J, borderline O/T;
I had a communication strategy passed on to me by one of my instructors.
The presenter was talking about communication in marriage, and the difference between her and her husband.
She was very knowledgeable and expressive, where he was succinct and fact-driven.
So, she could deliver a five-minute dissertation on a sink full of dirty dishes, the history of dishes, and how they affect society.
For him, it was simple; DISHES. DIRTY. STOP.
To facilitate communication between the two, the following advice was given - HE should; listen for five minutes. SHE should; get to the point, and avoid the dissertation on the social history of fine dinnerware.
Of course, this doesn't bleed into casual conversations and discussion - but, when communicating between two people, it's often best to bring a solution that facilitates both parties.
HHH, in our case, a problem was that I would complain, offer a soluition, and my conflict-avoidant H would agree to it, then PA'ly go against the solution be cause it wasn't his. So I had to back off and let him find his own. I don't much care how something gets solved, so long as it does, so this was quite effective for us.
HHH, in our case, a problem was that I would complain, offer a soluition, and my conflict-avoidant H would agree to it, then PA'ly go against the solution be cause it wasn't his. So I had to back off and let him find his own. I don't much care how something gets solved, so long as it does, so this was quite effective for us.
Ah ha!
I get that.
Did you ever offer a solution before identifying something as a problem?
Drove me nuts when FWW would offer me solutions for things I was doing that she identified as a problem - it was usually because I wasn't doing it the way she would.
Ugh.
Don't miss that.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Well. I would say this was a real downer for your W to hear! Talk about rating a performance!
Hilltopper, we
do initially look for infidelity when a new poster comes on board. Because it is, sadly, normal to find out that there is an active affair that is creating the marital problems. When that is the case we have to advise the poster in a completely different way that requires some urgency. That's why we ask that first, as opposed to spending a lot of time on addressing what needs aren't being met. The affair becomes the primary target that needs to be attacked.
When there appears to be no affair we start working on ways the couple can come back together in harmony. I am assuming this is the case for you and tgrace.
Hilltopper, STOP making reference to an A. If you are suspicious then quietly snoop. Don't make her feel bad or feel under scrutiny. GOSH! She was trying to meet your needs and you should have rewarded that effort!!!!
Apologize for saying that and reassure her that you will stop bringing up an A.
Hilltopper, STOP making reference to an A. If you are suspicious then quietly snoop. Don't make her feel bad or feel under scrutiny. GOSH! She was trying to meet your needs and you should have rewarded that effort!!!!
Apologize for saying that and reassure her that you will stop bringing up an A.
I totally agree, I don't know why I got so paranoid. I take that back, I know why I got paranoid, but it is no longer relevant to our marriage. There is no affair period, never was. My wife kind of shut me out emotionally, with no affection nor sex. What I have a hard time with in this form is the suggestions you make. "If you are suspicious then quiely snoop?" Why? Geez, I told my wife this morning that there is a part of me that doesn't want to look like a fool so I wanted to be certain nothing is going on. I love my wife very, very much. She made an amazing effort early in the game to have sex with me which was awesome and I threw it back in her face. What a jerk! On another note, my wife keeps bringing up wanting to have "intervention" with either some parents or friends? I told her I don't get this at all. I thought maybe she was just trying to help and she would drop it, but she just sent me an email asking us to go speak with my parents, preferably my Dad? I'm of the opinion that this is a horrible idea, even worse than a marriage counselor. I think she feels wronged for having me be suspicious in the first place and wants to get it out on the table that she has never cheated on me. She also mentioned that a close friend of hers did something similar which is likely where she got the idea. I'd like to respectfully decline this idea, but I need some suggestions on how to approach it.
Its a good thing I got her a card yesterday afternoon and wrote some nice words in so that she can read this morning!
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
"You all?"
In both of your threads, most mentions of it go to you and the Mrs. there, mister.
Quite making asinine statements.
How do you get past it? You quietly observe for concrete evidence, and don't try to "call her out" for stupid crap like changing her underwear.
If you don't have concrete evidence? Well then shut your yap. Quit accusing her with such poor observations.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
"You all?"
In both of your threads, most mentions of it go to you and the Mrs. there, mister.
Quite making asinine statements.
How do you get past it? You quietly observe for concrete evidence, and don't try to "call her out" for stupid crap like changing her underwear.
If you don't have concrete evidence? Well then shut your yap. Quit accusing her with such poor observations.
Not a subtle point you're making here, thanks! My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did. It might take several hours for her to feel good once again about the progress we've made but I'm sure she'll come around.
Hill ... lets stop referencing an affair. I believe that your wife is faithful ok? I am pretty sure we have that established now.
In regards to questioning her "orgasm" WHY would you do that? You have been working very hard at achieveing some intimacy and you threw your recent efforts away. You SHOULD have complimented her and or rewarded her .. not berate her! I would have said something along the lines of "WOW, Honey that was great! Your an AMAZING wife! I really enjoyed your affection! Did you enjoy it as much as I did? Was there anything I could have done better for you to make it more enjoyable?"
By complaining about her performance, your only going to make her want to do it even less! I know this becasue I did it too! I understand your concerns about her being not as tight as you might expect, but GEESH man .. she JUST had a baby! Her body will not be totally repaired yet! SLOW DOWN!
Did you offer her Oral sex? Reason I ask is because more often than not .. women do not orgasm by intercourse alone.
I used to act just as you .. and if i felt my wife was not enjoying it .. I would get upset. I felt guilty like i was using her. But after much negotiation (and many arguments about sex and performance) we came to an agreement that if the sex is just for me .. thats fine .. because she gets enjoyment from my pleasure and she told me that she would tell me (radical honesty) if she wants an orgasm too so I do not put any pressure on her to have one. Women dont (often) need it as much as men do so please understand that .. and STOP with the pressure for her orgasm. Let her get comfortable being intimate first ... you need to get into her MIND and bond emotionally. She made a GREAT effort and stepped out of her comfort zone to work on intimacy with you.
I would apologize to her ASAP ... tell her your sorry for complaining about her performance and making her think her efforts were not good enough. Reassure her that shes the only one for you and that you now believe her that your the only one for her. She did AWESOME as far as I am concerned and you need to thank her for that and tell her how much you appreciated it. Do something special for her.
MNG
My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did.
THATS GREAT HILL! Build on that ... thats great progress! Buy her some flowers on the way home from work today and then if its nice go and use those pointers on bike training i gave you in an earlier post and take some pressure off your wife to show your appreciation.
MNG
My wife shot me a note apologizing for making me "that insecure". I apologized back for behaving the way I did.
THATS GREAT HILL! Build on that ... thats great progress! Buy her some flowers on the way home from work today and then if its nice go and use those pointers on bike training i gave you in an earlier post and take some pressure off your wife to show your appreciation.
MNG
Thanks, apologizing feels good. I got her a card and wrote some nice words yesterday and there will be more of the same today. I don't care if I make obvious attempts to do nice things any more and furthermore I won't read into how it is received! How's that?
I don't care if I make obvious attempts to do nice things any more and furthermore I won't read into how it is received! How's that?
Excellent decision!
I totally agree, I don't know why I got so paranoid. I take that back, I know why I got paranoid, but it is no longer relevant to our marriage.
Being paranoid isn't an excuse, OK? You have folks posting to you that actually ARE recovering from an affair and many of us have good reason to be paranoid, and yet we follow the rule to refrain from bringing suspicions up no matter how paranoid we may be feeling. If we can do it, so can you!
As far as having an intervention for your W to air this issue out in front of family members, well, that's just a bad idea and going to inflame the situation. I would not agree to that. If she brings up the idea again, I would CALMLY ask her if the two of you can come to an agreement that you will not talk about an A anymore because it has become a drain on your LB$s.
Hill ... lets stop referencing an affair. I believe that your wife is faithful ok? I am pretty sure we have that established now.
In regards to questioning her "orgasm" WHY would you do that? You have been working very hard at achieveing some intimacy and you threw your recent efforts away. You SHOULD have complimented her and or rewarded her .. not berate her! I would have said something along the lines of "WOW, Honey that was great! Your an AMAZING wife! I really enjoyed your affection! Did you enjoy it as much as I did? Was there anything I could have done better for you to make it more enjoyable?"
By complaining about her performance, your only going to make her want to do it even less! I know this becasue I did it too! I understand your concerns about her being not as tight as you might expect, but GEESH man .. she JUST had a baby! Her body will not be totally repaired yet! SLOW DOWN!
Did you offer her Oral sex? Reason I ask is because more often than not .. women do not orgasm by intercourse alone.
I used to act just as you .. and if i felt my wife was not enjoying it .. I would get upset. I felt guilty like i was using her. But after much negotiation (and many arguments about sex and performance) we came to an agreement that if the sex is just for me .. thats fine .. because she gets enjoyment from my pleasure and she told me that she would tell me (radical honesty) if she wants an orgasm too so I do not put any pressure on her to have one. Women dont (often) need it as much as men do so please understand that .. and STOP with the pressure for her orgasm. Let her get comfortable being intimate first ... you need to get into her MIND and bond emotionally. She made a GREAT effort and stepped out of her comfort zone to work on intimacy with you.
I would apologize to her ASAP ... tell her your sorry for complaining about her performance and making her think her efforts were not good enough. Reassure her that shes the only one for you and that you now believe her that your the only one for her. She did AWESOME as far as I am concerned and you need to thank her for that and tell her how much you appreciated it. Do something special for her.
MNG
Her performance was great and she DID orgasm. I in a horrifically paranoid state asked her if it was real and offended her deeply. When we do have sex my wife can orgasm pretty easily so I'm not worried. I have expressed that all the other things like oral sex and stuff that we used to do I'm TOTALLY into, but she isn't feeling good about it or her body after three kids I think. She did do awesome and I'm kicking myself for not leaving it at that. I love her so much and want to stop the LB's so that we can string together more days in a row. I feel like if we can go 1 day we can go 2, if we can go 2 we can go a week, if we can go a week, we can go a month or more. A week straight of no LBing and attempts to fill EN's and I'm fairly certain we'll be madly in love.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Your wife delivered your third child less than six months ago. Things will fit together differently FROM NOW ON!! Get over it.
Also, is your wife breastfeeding the new baby? If so, she may go through a time of being "touched out" just because of all the little people pulling at her right now.
I am not one of the MB experts. However, I AM an expert in what it's like to have a bunch of little kids. One of the most difficult times in my life was when my third child was born. It is very, very hard to have all those tiny little people needing a piece of you all day every day.
I noticed that the very first time you posted here was around the time your youngest baby was born. Is there any chance that your marital problems are because you are jealous of the time your wife is spending caring for your children? Are you helping her around the house and with the children? And if you are helping, what's your attitude about it?
P.S. Yes, you were a real jerk.
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
Hill, do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plans to help your marriage get better?
If so, let me remind you on what the Marriage Builders plan is if you suspect an affair: snoop, find evidence, and do not confront until you have evidence. You've been told this a number of times, and yet you've already confronted your wife multiple times without evidence.
A different "fit" after pregnancy is not evidence.
We're talking evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley, Hill? Or do you want to follow the hilltopper plan from hilltopper?
(Want to hear how badly things go when I follow the markos plan instead of the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley? It's not a pretty sight!)
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real.
Your wife delivered your third child less than six months ago. Things will fit together differently FROM NOW ON!! Get over it.
Also, is your wife breastfeeding the new baby? If so, she may go through a time of being "touched out" just because of all the little people pulling at her right now.
I am not one of the MB experts. However, I AM an expert in what it's like to have a bunch of little kids. One of the most difficult times in my life was when my third child was born. It is very, very hard to have all those tiny little people needing a piece of you all day every day.
I noticed that the very first time you posted here was around the time your youngest baby was born. Is there any chance that your marital problems are because you are jealous of the time your wife is spending caring for your children? Are you helping her around the house and with the children? And if you are helping, what's your attitude about it?
P.S. Yes, you were a real jerk.
She had a c-section, and yes it could be possible that it came to a head once the third child was born. Problems have been there much longer than that though. Fights have become more frequent, sex less frequent, just kind of a general you do your thing and I'll do mine attitude developed. I stopped caring because despite my infantile desire to "fix things" it never mattered what I did. I got to the point where I couldn't control the outcome of the day, her feelings, our relationship, anything. I've learned a lot here on how to do things right and I'm working on it. I'm a hands on dad and my wife would let you know that not do I help with all three children and the house I have taken it to another level. I make breakfast, make lunches for school, take the oldest to school on the way to work, pick her up from cooking class, do the grocery shopping, make dinner every night, do the dishes, and hold the baby constantly(because I love to do so).
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am. I don't know any of you however which is why I feel so free to speak my mind. I think that is in a way the beauty of learning in this format.
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
Something is off here with the sex part. The sex was great for both of us and my paranoia had little to do with the act itself. It was me reaching for things that just aren't there not expressing that any part about the sex at all performance or other existed.
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
Hill, do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plans to help your marriage get better?
If so, let me remind you on what the Marriage Builders plan is if you suspect an affair: snoop, find evidence, and do not confront until you have evidence. You've been told this a number of times, and yet you've already confronted your wife multiple times without evidence.
A different "fit" after pregnancy is not evidence.
We're talking evidence that would stand up in a court of law.
Do you want to follow the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley, Hill? Or do you want to follow the hilltopper plan from hilltopper?
(Want to hear how badly things go when I follow the markos plan instead of the Marriage Builders plan from Dr. Harley? It's not a pretty sight!)
Yes I want to follow the plan and it kills me when I stray from it. Worse than that its like a "reset" with the progress we've made. There are many things that are going right. My wife is reading the book, I've read two of the books. We come here and post and learn. We have the workbook. We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away. I post here more frequently than anyone. My wife is a different person that I don't understand, go figure. I stare at her frequently with a perplexed look on my face because I just don't know what she wants. She's a walking contradiction at times and I don't know how to deal with it. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean I can't keep up with her mind. First it is A, then it switches to B a minute later. I hate having to "guess" at everything and hope that I hit the mark. When I do hit the mark it is great, we get each other and have a good time. When I hear a "sigh" that signifies that she is irritated with me. I get a lot of "sighs" folks. I just want to be confident in meeting my wife's needs and not walk on eggshells and feel clueless. By the way my wife is definitely from Venus, perhaps even another galaxy!
I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long
You know, I about died reading that sentence. It was embarrassing to read. Intensely personal. I'm sure your wife doesn't want your sexual difficulties broadcast here. And I'm sure it was indescribably horrible for her to hear it from you in person.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
That was your first mistake.
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am. I don't know any of you however which is why I feel so free to speak my mind. I think that is in a way the beauty of learning in this format.
Good. At least she trusts us to kick your backside!
Hill, can you control your paranoia? If your emotions get the best of you and keep you from working this logical plan here, you are not going to make it. Trust me.
Face the logic for a minute:
* Women can enjoy sex without orgasm
* Your wife can tell you if she's not enjoying sex and if she'd like you to do something different. You don't have to obsess over that. Let her worry about it.
* Men can enjoy sex without their wives orgasming
* YOUR WIFE IS WILLING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU
Relax and have a good time. Trust your wife to let you know if there's a problem, and express your willingness to help her if she ever feels like there is one. Relax. Have a good time.
Something is off here with the sex part. The sex was great for both of us and my paranoia had little to do with the act itself. It was me reaching for things that just aren't there not expressing that any part about the sex at all performance or other existed.
There is also the fact that you have this unresolved issue, and post-coital you can be emotionally raw. SF requires BOTH SPOUSES to be emotionally vulnerable with each other. If our fight-or-flight response is up, the last thing our body wants to do is have sex (which seems counter, since we can get an "adrenaline rush" from sex).
My wife requested that I tell you all verbatim what I said no doubt because it was preposterous in her eyes and assumed you'd all tell me I'm a jerk which I am.
That is awesome, Hill! My wife has benefited here often in exactly the same way!
We can shoot straight with you and tell you things that your wife cannot.
And we will. Some of us, you can't stop us from shooting.
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me. I asked her the following but haven't heard back, "If you could once again give MB a chance, post in your thread, read the books, do the workbook, I think everything will be great. It is not a scam, it is totally legit, and these people have already helped our marriage more than you know." She also acknowledged she got the card I wrote her but nothing further, guess she is still mad at me.
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me.
I think she's said that about seven times already, and both of you just got here. Calm down and forget it.
She also acknowledged she got the card I wrote her but nothing further, guess she is still mad at me.
I'd still be mad, too.
So would you, probably.
Hill, you insulted her vagina.
A card does not make up for that. It is the START of making up for that. Show some follow through.
What have you done nice for her, lately?
Yes I want to follow the plan and it kills me when I stray from it. Worse than that its like a "reset" with the progress we've made.
You are correct. This is the voice of reason. Listen to it.
Hill, you are a really emotional man.
If you want to have happy emotions in your life, you are going to have to let your reason and your logic guide you to do the things that will bring about happiness.
Focus on logical facts like this: "When I accuse my wife of things, I am being disrespectful. When I am disrespectful, I screw up all the progress that we have made and we both have to start over again. In pain."
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
I'll just chill then. I called her this morning and told her, "If you are feeling up to it, call me and we can chat more." She's obviously still mad and doesn't want to talk so I won't force the issue despite my desire to do just that. I'll get her something or do something nice on the way home.
Hill, you insulted her vagina.
A card does not make up for that. It is the START of making up for that. Show some follow through.
For a touch of lightness; I don't even want to know what a card apologizing for that would look like...
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
I agree with you Markos! ... it is my belief as well that there is not affair going on.
Its time to drop the "A" word from your vocabulary and move on to being the best hubby you can be.
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
I agree with you Markos! ... it is my belief as well that there is not affair going on.
Its time to drop the "A" word from your vocabulary and move on to being the best hubby you can be.
Yep that is the exact plan!
Hey, Hill, we do a little something here at home when one of us wants to DJ or otherwise say something dumb. We each knows what it means, so we kinda get our point across without actually saying it, and it's a gentle lead-in when something really ought to be discussed. Plus, it serves as a great reminder of the Greater Point. It's three little code words: "I love you."
Maybe you could try that with grace. Talk to her first about it, so she knows it is not an avoidance thing. She says, what's wrong? And you say, I love you.
Here, my husband will come up with some plan I think is a bad idea. He'll say, "hey, I thought I'd rip the front porch off the house on Sunday, what do you think?" My immediate thought would be "are you nutz?" But my immediate words are, "i love you." and he knows I mean he's nutz.
It's like shorthand for "give me a minute so I don't say something I'll regret."
We are definitely more inclined to speak politely to each other and respectfully. We don't fight about anything other than our relationship. It is almost always me bringing something up, her firing back. I always pursue her to talk, I always want to fix things after a fight right away.
Hill, let's be honest, here:
After a fight, you'd like your wife to get over it. Who wouldn't?
If she's still feeling raw, and you've gotten over it, you'll be really tempted to try to set her straight. As little control as you have over your emotions, this desire is going to seep out of every crack, and she'll see it. It will not turn her on. It will disgust her. And rightly so, because who wants to live with a critic and a dictator?
Your desire to fix things sounds noble. Your desire to straighten her out doesn't sound so noble, does it?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
She's referring to the affair accusations.
Can you do that? Can you shut up about it and just move on and do nice things to meet her emotional needs?
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
I have thanked her, apologized, and will continue to do so. Got her a card, sent her an E-Card, replied to her email, sent her a text a few hours ago. No response to any of it and frankly I can't make her respond. This is the communication thing I struggle with, I never know during good times or bad where I stand. I'm pretty sure I'm in the doghouse as of now, but the non-responding, or selective responding is difficult to read. I mentioned this to her yesterday. I send her a thoughtful text about wanting to get her something yummy to eat at the store, she ignored it. She sent me a different text which was a picture of the baby awhile later. She has the three kids and things get busy, but the communication breakdown makes it very difficult to even do something nice, you know? So today same thing, she emailed me and I replied. I sent her a text asking if she was doing ok and that I got blasted for my behavior on this post. No response. If I knew what she wanted whether it be super important or not so much, it would make things a lot easier because I'm still walking on eggshells. She has expressed irritation with some of my family members, some of her friends, some of our friends, etc. I can understand the stresses of the baby being a big cause of this and I've even told her that. Communication or lack there of and a lack of feedback on things I do good or bad means I'm operating in the dark. Pin the tale on the donkey. When I'm not clear about something I often ask her what she meant which is mostly answered with being irritated. The tone is, "well stupid you should have just known what I meant, get it fool?"
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
Why not call into the radio show or send Dr. H an email and he will answer it on his show (I believe you send it to his wife at jharley@marriageubuilders.com)?
Tell him exactly what you are going through, why you are suspicious and what you and your W have/have not done in order to calm your fears.
I'm inclined to believe that you will believe a professional on this and not stop obsessing until he gives you direction.
Night was good, wife offered oral sex, which was great, that led to real sex which was great. Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face and asked me to tell her what bothered me. I told her that a certain something fit too easily into something else for not having had sex for so long and that I questioned whether her orgasm was real. I insulted her and she'll barely speak to me or come back to this forum. She kept telling me, "you have problems". She is referring to me reading into every single thing which is probably true. Am I aloud to be suspicious of my wife? She seems to think not and told me so. Either you're all gonna blast me for being a complete a-hole last night and to stop reading into things or you'll use the power of suggestion and I'll be even more suspicious of my wife. I have no proof, just little things I've seen that I probably just read into. Some of you are so direct with my wife about the issue of infidelity that I can't help but assume you might be right. I don't think you're right but until I get past it I don't know we are gonna get there. How can we get past it?
Why not call into the radio show or send Dr. H an email and he will answer it on his show (I believe you send it to his wife at jharley@marriageubuilders.com)?
Tell him exactly what you are going through, why you are suspicious and what you and your W have/have not done in order to calm your fears.
I'm inclined to believe that you will believe a professional on this and not stop obsessing until he gives you direction.
Thanks for the suggestion I'll think about that. The A thing is over. I see no reason for it and I've moved past it. My wife has been open and honest with me about everything. I think other Vets on this site have seen that she has nothing to hide either. I struggled for awhile because I was encouraged to "snoop" on many occasions. I wasn't getting any affection or SF. Then my wife was asked once or twice is she was being truthful about having an affair. I described my wife's reaction to the first time I confronted her, and especially the second as "angry denial". This description caused more Vets to think something was up. It was just ridiculous from the beginning and still is. All you need to know is that it is over, I trust my wife is being truthful, I've told her this. It doesn't mean she won't be mad or hurt for whatever time frame that takes for her, but it does mean that there is no doubt whatsoever that my wife wants to meet my EN's and me hers. This is a process and admittedly as a very impatient man I will hour by hour and day by day do what I need to do in my yard as that is all I can control. From what I've seen I think she intends on doing the same.
Have patience Hill ... yes shes mad at you and rightfully so. She will need a few days to re collect her thoughts on your behaviour from last night.
DONT hound her ... DONT glare at her .. No DJ or AO or SD's. And DO NOT give her your "stewing face" Just let it all slide off your back right now OK? Keep being nice and meeting her needs. Maybe pour her a bath and bring her some wine and put on her favorite CD in the bathroom for her and lite some candles in there too ... then YOU put the kids to bed ... read them bed time stores .. and rock the little one to sleep. If ya got a baby swing ... use that! .. Both my kids loved the baby swing and had many naps in it! This will give her a chance to wind down ... dont ASK her if she wants you to do this .. just do it! And when she gets out offer her a backrub to help her relax and let her go to sleep with no "alterior motives" ok?
Time to SLOW DOWN and let the MB program help your wife shift gears.
My DH accused me several years ago of sleeping with someone else. I would classify my response as total horror that then went to angry denial. And, he stewed over my transgression for a WEEK before he brought them up. Once I got over the pain I was pissed.
We moved past it, but it took me a while.
Have y'all POJA'ed the response time to your contact? My DH and I did - if I'm at work and he calls on my cell, I call back at the next break. If he calls on my work line, I answer, because it's an emergency. If he emails me at work, I answer within 30 minutes, if he emails me at home, then it's within 24 hours. Calls on my cell when I'm not at work are answered or if he has to leave a message I get back with him within 15 minutes unless I've told him I'll be out of touch (i.e. riding my horse, traveling somewhere that service is patchy, etc...). It made him a lot more comfortable with the time it takes me to respond. And, I always let him know my schedule for the week - If I'm going to be away from my desk all day at work then he knows that, or if I'm going to be riding my horse all day and not have my phone, he knows that.
His calls are my #1 priority when I'm not at work, at work if he needs me then he's still #1.
By the way my wife said she is never coming back here which bothers me.
Hey, Hill,
let me just point out to you,
your wife is still posting here.
I just wanted to point that out.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Just a phrase I use man, no need to read into it. And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Just a phrase I use man, no need to read into it. And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
The king of "stewing" gives the advice "no need to read into it."
Come on, guy.
And no, I'm typically not bothered by much at all really.
Then why do you say it? I'm not trying to split hairs, but you may unknowingly be saying this a lot more than you realize. "It bothers me" is usually the beginning of a negative statement. Your listeners hear it and may accordingly begin to prepare their defense against this thing that bothers you as soon as they hear that phrase. Drop it if it's just a figure of speech. It won't help you.
Hilltopper, I notice you say "It bothers me," a lot ... do a lot of things bother you? Little things that maybe wouldn't bother most other people?
Markos, not trying to be snarky in any way� just want to understand� how, unless someone points this out to us, do we learn what little things that bother us that wouldn�t bother most people?
I ask because I am learning that about myself. My best bosses are the kinds of guys whose nitnoid habits (like wanting their stuff a certain way) annoys my coworkers but I love because I totally understand what the bosses want being that I�m the same way. And I don�t have a problem with them telling me how they want something. So these two bosses love my work. Until I got in this situation, where I constantly hear my coworkers complain about XYZ, I never realized that things I want or the way I like to do things is annoying to others. Or that the things that bother/annoy me about others wouldn�t bother �most other people.�
So how would Hilltopper even know if things that bother him don�t bother most other people? He says "It bothers me," a lot, but then says very little bothers him. Maybe, like me and my bosses, he doesn�t realize how he appears to others (and his wife), or how very much these "little things" bother him?
It doesn't matter one bit whether anything bothers 'most people'. Hill and grace are in this marriage, and the ONLY thing that matters is what bothers them.
It doesn't matter one bit whether anything bothers 'most people'. Hill and grace are in this marriage, and the ONLY thing that matters is what bothers them.
QFT
I am not finding fault with him being bothered, or with him saying he's bothered!
My theory is that he genuinely IS bothered and that it's not just an expression.
More later, I hope, gotta run ...
Look I'm just trying to avoid LBs and meet ENs in my backyard, that's all I can do. It takes some forethought and discipline which I can do.
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Or make yourself available for her to express her feelings, shut up and listen, and let her talk. DO NOT OFFER YOUR OPINION OR ADVICE. DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING YOU ARE READING HERE.
Just listen!
Wife said she's still mad. I don't blame her but I think it best to give her some space for a night until she's ready.
Or make yourself available for her to express her feelings, shut up and listen, and let her talk. DO NOT OFFER YOUR OPINION OR ADVICE. DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING YOU ARE READING HERE.
Just listen!
I understand.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her asking her if she was "ok" at 11am all day, she finally emailed me at about much later with the following, you'll see my replies:
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to? If you're ok I'm gonna work a little later as I don't think it would be wise to speak right now, ok? If your mood changes let me know. I love you.
Her:
I'm just letting u know I've told u more than once I would like to speak with u when u get home. I feel like u try to force responses and get annoyed. I'm not trying to have any attitude and of course I FEEL like you are reading into my email. Simply stated talk later. I held back every ounce of my body from telling staci everything. She is a good friend and watched Alex so I could run. There are little people with ears here. I will gladly see u when I get home.
Me:
Please reread my email again. Specifically what did I read into and what did I force? Are you reading my thread? I sent you a text at 11 am asking if you were ok in a respectful loving concerned manner. That is all I did, does that bother you? I thought it was nice. I'm glad you want to chat later, we can spend time together. Luv you lots
Her:
I'm normally glad for u to send me text messages other than today when I was extremely mad and hurt by u for basically calling me a whore. So yes I am mad and willing to move on but I will have my own stew for one night. Yes I do luv u but I'm still extremely still hurt and overwhelmed. We can still watch movies and hang tonight but please don't have any expectations that I'm going to desire to be affectionate tonight considering the circumstances.
We haven't spoken all night nor made eye contact. I went into the other room to read the book, she went up to take a shower so I put the kids down. I've apologized to her and publicly on this forum numerous times but it is gonna take a lot more time for her to get over this as near as I can tell. She is hurt and I get that and at a minimum I'm not LBing anything I suppose but we are in a state of withdrawal at the moment.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her asking her if she was "ok" at 11am all day, she finally emailed me at about much later with the following, you'll see my replies:
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to? If you're ok I'm gonna work a little later as I don't think it would be wise to speak right now, ok? If your mood changes let me know. I love you.
Her:
I'm just letting u know I've told u more than once I would like to speak with u when u get home. I feel like u try to force responses and get annoyed. I'm not trying to have any attitude and of course I FEEL like you are reading into my email. Simply stated talk later. I held back every ounce of my body from telling staci everything. She is a good friend and watched Alex so I could run. There are little people with ears here. I will gladly see u when I get home.
Me:
Please reread my email again. Specifically what did I read into and what did I force? Are you reading my thread? I sent you a text at 11 am asking if you were ok in a respectful loving concerned manner. That is all I did, does that bother you? I thought it was nice. I'm glad you want to chat later, we can spend time together. Luv you lots
Her:
I'm normally glad for u to send me text messages other than today when I was extremely mad and hurt by u for basically calling me a whore. So yes I am mad and willing to move on but I will have my own stew for one night. Yes I do luv u but I'm still extremely still hurt and overwhelmed. We can still watch movies and hang tonight but please don't have any expectations that I'm going to desire to be affectionate tonight considering the circumstances.
We haven't spoken all night nor made eye contact. I went into the other room to read the book, she went up to take a shower so I put the kids down. I've apologized to her and publicly on this forum numerous times but it is gonna take a lot more time for her to get over this as near as I can tell. She is hurt and I get that and at a minimum I'm not LBing anything I suppose but we are in a state of withdrawal at the moment.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
Uh, you picked a fight there dippey-doo!
Her red = something going through your ears/eys like wind in a tunnel - she is stating that she cannot carry on the conversation comfortably and you keep forcing it.
Shut yer yap and LISTEN TO THE WOMAN.
Your red = disrespectful judgments. You are trying to educate her about her own feelings, or making assumptions about how long it should take her to "get over it."
Knock it off!
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
It will take her time to get over your comment yesterday. At least she's sharing a house with you, I think that's pretty generous given the circumstances.
Give her some time, peace, and meet her needs as best you can until she's ready to move on. Quit pushing her so hard.
MB doesn't work over night. It's not a majikal cureall for all marriage ailments. It takes time, work on yourselves, commitment, and changing some normally entrenched beliefs. Give it time, be patient. Someone told me to form a plan, give it a set amount of time, and reevaluate at the end of that time. It worked out pretty well for us. We still struggle, but a lot of that is situational and not the fault of the program because we're not using it 100% (DH still travels 5 days a week).
I believe that stewing and then blowing up is really hard for both parties to get over. My DH has always been really, really bad about it and since we've been using MB and the trust and intimacy has grown he's feeling safe enough to share with me before we get to the stewing/blowing point. It's really changed the dynamic of our relationship.
Speaking of withdrawal, that is where we were for a long time with occasional bouts of conflict. At least we are in a state of conflict and hopefully heading back towards intimacy. She has shut me out again entirely and it feels bad. I'm very lonely and sad tonight.
Waaaa Waaa Waaaa.
Uh, you picked a fight there dippey-doo!
Her red = something going through your ears/eys like wind in a tunnel - she is stating that she cannot carry on the conversation comfortably and you keep forcing it.
Shut yer yap and LISTEN TO THE WOMAN.
Your red = disrespectful judgments. You are trying to educate her about her own feelings, or making assumptions about how long it should take her to "get over it."
Knock it off!
Listen to HHH.
Dude, you have treated the woman like DIRT. You are lucky she didn't do something worse than delay responding. She is trying to gather her emotions and instead of giving her some space you are demanding immediate forgiveness.
She said that she wanted to talk to you when you got home, so you decided to work late?!?
You called the mother of your children a slut, didn't respect her wishes, hounded her because she didn't respond to your texts in a time frame that you found acceptable, but you feel sad and lonely. Throwing in an occasional "I love you" in the middle of that garbage doesn't erase the negative, rude, hurtful things you said. Have you tried to consider how your wife feels?
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover from the major abdominal surgery that was needed to deliver your child safely? How does she feel about having to have a c-section this time after having two previous vaginal births? Do you even know?
Hilltopper, you are coming across as a self-centered, childish jerk.
Kirby with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about. If you hate me I really don't care I'm not here for you I'm here for my marriage.
Huh? How did a "are ok ok?" turn into me picking a fight? She emailed me and I replied to her email respectfully. Whoever that other idiot was that assumed my expression of love was not true or real can take a hike. I didn't press a thing. Where did I force her to talk to me in any way?
Kirby with all due respect you don't know what you're talking about. If you hate me I really don't care I'm not here for you I'm here for my marriage.
Sure doesn't sound like it dude.
I mean, if you really can't look at your text exchange and see how wrong it was, how disrespectful you are being, how unbelieva-frigging ENTITLED...
Wow. Just....WOW
You are lucky she will even let you into the house. IMHO.
For the love of Pete when did I demand forgiveness either?
Kerala same for you, how about you just hate me from a distance? I'm here with my wife she doesn't even hate me as much as you. Best of luck to you.
What, we aren't allow to disagree with you? Disagreement does not equal hatred.
Dude, you're shooting at the relief helicopters. These are folks who have been there/done that. The things that piss you off the most are usually the things you really need to pay attention to.
And FYI, I'm quoting what people were posting to ME when I first arrived on this website two years ago. They were right, and once I figured that out, things got better.
These folks are on your side -- you just haven't figured it out yet.
Her:
I hope u hear this clearly I WILL communicate with you when u get home. Stop trying to fix things on the dot and put pressure on everything. U did something wrong, I'm getting over it and I will be ready when u get home. I would like I to have more patience.
HT, you should have just let it go with this text. Stop trying to force your W to react the way that you want her to react. Please read up on DJs and the friends and enemies of conversation.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to?
This. Removing the tude is really disrespectful. If my wife said something or texted me something like that, I would be very angry. She's still upset with you, slowly getting over it and you keep pushing this having to communicate about it right then.
Just stop. If she says she wants to talk about it right then, then drop it till you get home. You're hounding her. What if she wanted to talk about something and you absolutely did not right then. So she follows you from room to room saying "why won't you talk to me....talk to me!" You'd get really annoyed.
Huh? How did a "are ok ok?" turn into me picking a fight? She emailed me and I replied to her email respectfully. Where did I force her to talk to me in any way?
there have been several posts on your threads about your wife not responding to your texts as quickly as you'd like and then you continue pressing the "why aren't you responding?!" When she says she'll talk to you at home and you keep sending her texts or emails, that is not respectful...that is hounding and irritating.
You're picking fights because of the continual getting mad because she's not answering you quick enough.
Kerala same for you, how about you just hate me from a distance?
Get over yourself. No one hates you; we don't even know you. If we're responding to you it's because we're seeing something and trying to help you. But this 'hate me from a distance' stuff is childish, immature, and if you say stuff like this to your wife, is not attractive coming from a man to a woman.
If you don't like what someone has to say, then don't respond. We're taking our time to try and help your marriage. if you're going to whine, self-martyr yourself, and lash out at those helping you, then don't seek help.
If you get called a jerk, so what. If a bunch of people are seeing the same thing, stop being defensive and ask why. All you're going to do is get people to stop responding to you. I certainly would not want to post to someone that is having a "stop hating me" pitty party.
Seriously. Maybe asking why someone has a POV that they do would be better than getting snappy to people trying to help you.
A quick rundown. She ignored my text to her
Hilltopper, let's start right there.
If you would like to have a better marriage, then I think you have here a belief that strongly needs to change, and fast. Can you come to accept that your wife doesn't have to respond to everything you do? That she can make her own choice about that?
What I hear when you say she ignored you is what someone else heard: you feel ENTITLED to an answer. You feel like she SHOULD answer you.
And that is how marital abuse occurs: this path starts with demands (answer me) and disrespectful judgments (you are ignoring me) and eventually goes down to angry outbursts. Don't go there. Start with accepting that your wife can make up her own mind on whether or not she should answer you, and that her opinion on that subject is VALID and must be RESPECTED by you, even if your opinion is different.
So you felt like she should answer. She felt different. Does your opinion outrank hers?
A caring husband accepts his wife's right to decline his requests, because he cares about her feelings and recognizes that if she had done what he wanted, then he would have gained at her expense. When you make a request (send a text as an invitation to talk), if your wife doesn't feel like granting your request (respond to the text), think about what conditions might cause her to feel enthusiastic about granting your request. If you can't think of any right away, withdraw your request for now.
Guess who told me that? His name is Willard Harley.
Gotta disagree, markos, based on what Steve Harley told us. Your spouse calls, you answer, even if it is just to say that now is not a good time. Ignoring your spouse because you are either too busy for them or just don't feel like dealing with them at the moment is murder on a marriage.
I do think Hill was being a jerk in those texts. He should have answered her first onewith a hearty, "great! Looking forward to this evening."
Hill, when you get what you're after, stop!
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
Assuming that she is ignoring is a DJ, and a severe problem.
Gotta disagree, markos, based on what Steve Harley told us. Your spouse calls, you answer, even if it is just to say that now is not a good time. Ignoring your spouse because you are either too busy for them or just don't feel like dealing with them at the moment is murder on a marriage.
I think you should tell grace that, not Hill. There are things we can tell grace that Hill should not. It's not his job to tell her she's passive aggressive or decide that her behavior is the death knell of the marriage. Her lack of availability may be a problem, but if he starts disrespectfully judging her about it, that'll be an even
bigger problem!
They are both here; if you see a problem in her behavior, go share it with her.
I did. Yesterday.
It may be wise to always respond to your spouse, and a great way to show your care, but Hilltopper has no control over whether or not his wife chooses to respond to him.
Assuming she's ignoring him, and treating her poorly because of that, is an attempt to control her. It is abusive.
It may be a totally innocent mistake on her part. Or, by not responding, she may be attempting to control her own DJs and AOs.
It would be good for him, at a later date when things are calm, to let her know "In the future, I would like it if you would respond and let me know you're busy." But she still has the right to say no.
CWMI, do you agree that you are responsible for doing what you should do even when your spouse is refusing to do what they should?
Absolutely, did you read my whole post? I didn't let Hill off the hook about going off on her.
It's not his job to tell her she's passive aggressive or decide that her behavior is the death knell of the marriage.
I had to come back to this. I agree that it's a bad idea for him to call her PA, but it IS his decision on whether her behavior is harming their marriage, and it IS his job to tell her so. He is currently doing this in a destructive manner, which needs to change, but it still is his job to let her know when she hurts him--complaining in marriage, RH, etc.
Absolutely, did you read my whole post? I didn't let Hill off the hook about going off on her.
Can we talk language and context? I'm defensive because several people called me a jerk for hounding my wife. I know I do this which is why I sent her one text at 11am literally saying "are yo ok?" and left it at that. I didn't freak out because I didn't get an answer or contact her back in any way. She emailed me four hours later, not the other way around, with a response to something I didn't do(hound her). Only thing I can figure is she trolled my thread which was active of me seeking advice on what to do or how to behave if or when my wife responds to some things and completely ignores others. On top of not hounding her and in fact doing the opposite of giving her space to talk when she is ready, I get another 2-3 people berating me for insulting my wife's vagina, also out of context. There is a reason I began to feel the way I did and consider the possibility of an A, we've all made that clear. We had a long talk, I realized I have nothing to worry about and we moved on. Sincere apologies have flowed out my mouth for a day and a half. My wife needs time and I'm giving her all the time she needs.
Me:
I would appreciate you removing the 'tude. What do you mean? I sent you a text 4 hours ago asking if you were ok. What pressure are you referring to?
This. Removing the tude is really disrespectful. If my wife said something or texted me something like that, I would be very angry. She's still upset with you, slowly getting over it and you keep pushing this having to communicate about it right then.
Just stop. If she says she wants to talk about it right then, then drop it till you get home. You're hounding her. What if she wanted to talk about something and you absolutely did not right then. So she follows you from room to room saying "why won't you talk to me....talk to me!" You'd get really annoyed.
Again, when did I in any of this force conversation with my wife? She emailed, I replied, she emailed again, I replied. Please, please reread what transpired, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I have had a history of "hounding" but I didn't yesterday. When a person tries to change his behavior, does exactly that, then gets advice repeatedly to stop hounding when he did nothing of the sort, it is confusing.
There is a reason I began to feel the way I did and consider the possibility of an A,
Whoa! How did we get back to discussing
that again?? I thought we were talking about text messages.
we've all made that clear. We had a long talk, I realized I have nothing to worry about and we moved on. Sincere apologies have flowed out my mouth for a day and a half. My wife needs time and I'm giving her all the time she needs.
Okay, what are you doing nice for her? Can you take this woman to dinner some time soon? She recently went out of her way to have sex with you to proclaim her love and commitment to you. What a great lady. What are you planning to do nice for her, next?
Hey, hill,
Do NOT go reading on your wife's thread, but I wanted to give you a safe little excerpt of what she just posted:
I just want him to move past all this and start working on our marriage.
Also, note that she's saying this even dispite your completely insensitive comment last night.
You are one lucky man, Hill.
Thank that woman tonight for putting up with you, okay? Tell her, "Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me."
Hill, did you go to your wife last night and say this? She needs to hear it. You have been difficult to live with, and she need to hear that you appreciate the fact that she is putting up with you.
Look I'm just trying to avoid LBs and meet ENs in my backyard
Hey, what ENs are you meeting, and how?
Again, when did I in any of this force conversation with my wife? She emailed, I replied, she emailed again, I replied. Please, please reread what transpired, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I have had a history of "hounding" but I didn't yesterday. When a person tries to change his behavior, does exactly that, then gets advice repeatedly to stop hounding when he did nothing of the sort, it is confusing.
And this is what scares me about you. Multiple people have read your exchange and told you that you hounded her.
Why don't you believe it?
Instead of being willing to accept the fact that you made a mistake, you argue and declare that what you did yesterday wasn't bad because you've done MUCH WORSE in the past.
In your posts on this thread you say that your wife "ignored" your first message. That's a lie. She took 4 hours to respond. That's not ignoring you.
You, sir, have the mindset of an abuser. I don't know if you have ever hit your wife in the past, but IMO, you have to potential to do so.
Abusers are: controlling, entitled, disrespectful of their partner, and manipulative. They feel justified and deny and minimize their abuse. They are usually insanely jealous and accuse their partner of having an affair for no reason.
You need help for YOUR issues before the marital problems can be addressed.
I get another 2-3 people berating me for insulting my wife's vagina, also out of context.
There was nothing out of context about it. You were beyond insulting, but you are still trying to defend it as having been justified somehow. Not taking responsibility for yourself, your reactions, your responses, etc. Is not cleaning up your side of the street.
She wasn't interested in talking with me, made it clear so no I didn't last night but I did with a sorry card in the morning, a sorry ecard a couple hours later. I sent her that text hoping it would solicit a response, didn't work. Got home but the silence was deafening so I grabbed some tea and read the book. This morning is mostly silence.
It's probably time to quit saying sorry. All you're doing is reminding her of your insensitivity.
Look at the suggested message I gave you again, please. It's very important. Notice that it is not even about your clueless comment? It's not about that at all! It's a positive comment of admiration.
Listen, Hill, your wife has a tough job to put up with you. You have got to understand that and believe it, and you have got to let her know that you appreciate it and admire her for doing it.
I mean ... you subjected her to some pretty shocking and insensitive remarks when you went off on your flight of fancy. You reacted from emotion, impulsively, without focusing on a plan, without thinking about how it was going to affect her. You sound like the kind of guy who tends to verbally leap before you look. You can learn to calm that down, but until you do SHE'S GOT A BIG LOAD TO CARRY. Thank her for carrying it.
Even if your wife is "not interested in talking," you can probably still walk up to her and say:
Honey, I am so sorry. I know that I am not an easy man to live with. I don't know how you put up with me. I do not deserve you. Thank you for staying with me through all of this and for going so far last night to try to show your love for me.
She will probably listen to that. She may not believe you really feel this way, which is fine. But she will probably listen, and she will probably start watching to see evidence if you really feel this way.
She needs to feel appreciated, Hill. What are you doing to accomplish that? What ENs are you meeting, and how? What are you doing nice for her, lately?
So, let me see if this is straight
You send her a text, she doesn't respond.
4 hours later, she sends you an e-mail.
You respond, she responds, you respond, she responds.
And, again, you are baited into an argument, and YOU ENTER IT WILLINGLY.
In my reply, I highlighted in red where she said "We will talk when you get home."
Hello?
At that point, it's a simple response; "Ok, dear. I apologize, we will talk about it when you get home. How is your day going so far?"
Disengage the argument, change the subject... anything but continue it on. I don't care if she is baiting you into that conversation, when it is going to be a fight, you have the choice to not engage. So... DON'T.
The angry silent treatment is... a setup, and just as bad for
"punishing" or "controlling" behavior, though the ladies won't call out on that one if it's one of their own favorite tactics.
And there IS a difference between not conversing and the silent treatment.
So, in that sense, kudos to you for not falling into it. The silent treatment is often employed as a way to bait an argument.
"I'm mad, so I'm not going to talk to you! Hmph!"
Okay, then... I'm uh... gonna go read a book. Good luck with that not talking thing!
Grace and Hilltopper, instead of spinning your wheels discussing a SPECIFIC conflict on this board, which is a distraction from learning the skills to resolve conflict on your own, please take the time instead to read this article by Dr Harley:
How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage
So, let me see if this is straight
You send her a text, she doesn't respond.
4 hours later, she sends you an e-mail.
You respond, she responds, you respond, she responds.
And, again, you are baited into an argument, and YOU ENTER IT WILLINGLY.
In my reply, I highlighted in red where she said "We will talk when you get home."
Hello?
At that point, it's a simple response; "Ok, dear. I apologize, we will talk about it when you get home. How is your day going so far?"
Disengage the argument, change the subject... anything but continue it on. I don't care if she is baiting you into that conversation, when it is going to be a fight, you have the choice to not engage. So... DON'T.
The angry silent treatment is... a setup, and just as bad for
"punishing" or "controlling" behavior, though the ladies won't call out on that one if it's one of their own favorite tactics.
And there IS a difference between not conversing and the silent treatment.
So, in that sense, kudos to you for not falling into it. The silent treatment is often employed as a way to bait an argument.
"I'm mad, so I'm not going to talk to you! Hmph!"
Okay, then... I'm uh... gonna go read a book. Good luck with that not talking thing!
A sucker is born every minute! Thanks for reminding me of this, I need to better more aware of what is occurring and avoid it at all costs. I think calling Steve for coaching is in our very near future, gotta pay the mortgage first, but then after that it should be a problem. How far out does he usually schedule calls? I also plan on listening to MB Radio to and from work each day to get some insight and focus on more of the positive stuff.
Ok, I want to additionally back ML here;
It may be a good idea for you two to step back from the forums for a bit.
Let's not post conflicts any further.
This post is going on both of your threads.
Shopping list;
1 - 3 Ring Binder
1 - 3 Hole punch
2 - Highlighters
Make sure your printer has ink and paper.
Print the suggested articles, and read them
separately, highlighter in hand. As you read through, highlight the portions you feel relevant to your marriage, and make marginal rotations.
After each of you have read the article and made your marks and notations, go over them
together.
Then file the completed articles in your binder.
Your binder should also include;
The Policy of Undivided Attention Read it as the other articles, and sign off on it.
The Policy of Radical Honesty Again, read it, highlight and notate, each sign off. Include the sections on Emotional Honesty, Historical Honesty, Current Honesty, and Future Honesty.
The Policy of Joint Agreement(PoJA). Same as the other two policies.
Work no more than 1-2 articles, concepts, or policies per day, and follow it with pleasant UA time.
You might also include the article for each Emotional Need and each Love Buster.
You can do your emotional need and love buster questionnaires, and file them in your "marriage binder" as well.
Set an increment of time after which you will review or redo the questionnaires.
For instance, do them today, then again in one month, then three months after that.
As you eliminate Love Busters and meet each others Emotional Needs, you will see the answers on them evolve, and the order of importance of those needs may shift.
In the case of my FWW and I, when we first completed them in August 2010, SF was #3. It is no longer even in my top 5. Do note, however, that SF is one of the 4 intimate emotional needs to be met during UA time - which also includes Affection, Conversation, and Recreational Companionship.
Your posts from that point should begin to address how to integrate the concepts, and how to use those concepts to address conflicts.
Time to get to work!
We got on his schedule within a couple of days, and we had a tight schedule to work in when we would both be home and kids wouldn't. I know you can't do the 'no kid' thing. Ours typically went where we would both be on the phone during the first ten minutes and the last ten minutes, and surprise, the calls often go much longer than expected. I don't think we had one in six months that went under 70 minutes. Steve is awesome in that he does not say, hey, time's up, gotta run, ttyl. He finishes. He's awesome smart and a NO BS kind of guy.
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover
don't know if this applies in Hilltopper's case, but just for the record... and I have friends who also had this experience, so I'm not the only one...my ex thought my son was sleeping through the night in his first month. I nursed him for over a year and I can tell ya, he didn't start sleeping through the night until about month 6-7 when we introduced solid food. But my ex would brag about how his son was sleeping. What was really happening, is, my ex was sleeping so soundly he didn't hear the baby. :-)
heh, not to add fuel...my now 9yo didn't sleep more than two hours at a time until he was 9mos old, and I'm pretty certain that I got pregnant with dd the night my H finally got up to tend him after I'd screamed at him that I was going to DIE OF EXHAUSTION if I didn't get a break and I PLANNED TO TAKE HIM WITH ME IF HE DIDN'T GO GET THAT SCREAMING CHILD THIS INSTANT. I was THAT grateful.
lol. funny now, but man, not at all funny at the time.
Thankfully, the rest of them ranged from 1/2 to three months on all-night sleeping.
I haven't heard any complaints about Hill being non-involved, so I just share that as a 'crazy woman' story.
Is the baby sleeping through the night yet? Has your wife been able to rest enough to recover
don't know if this applies in Hilltopper's case, but just for the record... and I have friends who also had this experience, so I'm not the only one...my ex thought my son was sleeping through the night in his first month. I nursed him for over a year and I can tell ya, he didn't start sleeping through the night until about month 6-7 when we introduced solid food. But my ex would brag about how his son was sleeping. What was really happening, is, my ex was sleeping so soundly he didn't hear the baby. :-)
Baby has been excellent sleeps from about 7pm till 4am or so. Feeds a bit then falls back asleep till about 630am. We're both up during that time as I'm an extremely light sleeper so I hear everything. The children wear both of us out, not just my wife. I cut off an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening from work. The hour in the morning is taking care of the big kids and getting daughter to school each day. The hour in the evening is to come home early, give my wife a breather, and make everyone dinner. We do a lot of things right and have for a long time, but the big one that has brought us to this point is neglecting our marriage entirely. I do it, she does it, period and I'm sure it is unbelievably common.
We spoke a bit this morning about "forward motion" and not posting every little reaction on these forums. It is a great decision(POJA kind) so that we can make some progress with our marriage. I think you'll find that both my wife and I are much more reasonable than has been portrayed by our behavior and responses to our behavior on this forum. We kind of chuckle at the level of intensity of some of the other members that exceeds that of my wife and I!
I love it when POJA is used ... Good job Hill. It will get easier the more you practice it.
[We spoke a bit this morning about "forward motion" and not posting every little reaction on these forums. It is a great decision(POJA kind) so that we can make some progress with our marriage. I think you'll find that both my wife and I are much more reasonable than has been portrayed by our behavior and responses to our behavior on this forum. We kind of chuckle at the level of intensity of some of the other members that exceeds that of my wife and I!
You will be ok if you stick to the LESSONS and avoid posting conflicts. That is a disaster! You did great in your "POJA!"
Ok so UA is a big problem for us. Not only do we have an infant that is still breast feeding, but our daily kids and work schedules mean we only get UA at night after 8pm which means were both exhausted typically. This is not the ideal situation to focus but I guess it will have to do. 20 hours is an average of almost 3 hours a day. Currently we get about an hour to two hours at night exclusively watching our favorite shows on TV. Yes I know this is not the best thing to cultivate our EN's but I'm just being honest about what is truthfully going on. So I guess we are spending our time watching other people on reality shows and other stuff and not learning about and enjoying each other, I get it not remotely healthy, uggggh. I'm not surprised at all! I remember back when we were dating(no kids), we'd usually go to dinner, then the bookstore, get wine and snackies with no tv, hang out, cuddle, and of course lots of SF! Go figure we were hot for each other and madly in love. Fast forward 8 years, now we don't do any of those things, and our recreational activity revolves around spending time with other couples with kids our age as well. It is clear to me this needs to change like yesterday. I know its not that many of you haven't told us this, it is more there was so many things we were told to "do" or "not do" it was hard to prioritize and we just ignored that one and postponed it for later. We'll have to come up with a POJA on how to do this as it means our current nightly habits and social arrangements will have to change in order to make our marriage any kind of a priority in our lives. Sounds simple enough so why am I feeling intimidated about it right now?
We'll have to come up with a POJA on how to do this as it means our current nightly habits and social arrangements will have to change in order to make our marriage any kind of a priority in our lives. Sounds simple enough so why am I feeling intimidated about it right now?
You are right, you need to find a way to make this happen. You can see the result of putting your marriage LAST. That is not good for your kids. What is best for your kids is to have parents who are in love, because that produces a secure marriage.
TV does not count as UA time. You can count it, but it will not achieve what you are trying to achieve. It should be deducted. I would start hiring babysitters 3 to 4 times a week and find ways to make this work. If you can find a way to cut corners on UA time, I applaud you. But I have been here for 10 years, am in a romantic marriage and have not found a way to do it. Like Dr Harley says:
"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
It's incredible how many couples have tried to talk me out of their spending more time together. They begin by trying to convince me that it's impossible. Then they go on to the argument that it's impractical. But in the end, they usually agree that without time for undivided attention, they cannot re-create the love they once had for each other.
And that's my point. Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So to help you and your spouse clear space in your schedule for each other, I encourage you to follow
The Policy of Undivided Attention:
Give your spouse your undivided attention
a minimum of fifteen hours each week,
using the time to meet the emotional needs of
affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation, and recreational companionship.
First, I recommend that you learn to be together without your children. This can be very difficult for many couples, especially when children are very young. They don't think that children interfere with their privacy. To them, an evening with their children is privacy. While they know they can't make love with children around, the presence of children prevents much more than sex. When children are present, they interfere with affection and intimate conversation, two very vital needs in marriage. Besides, affection and intimate conversation usually lead to lovemaking, and without them, you will find that your lovemaking suffers.
But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.
Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other.
Caring for Children Means
Caring for Each OtherWillard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.
Children desperately need parents who stay married to each other, and love each other. Their future depends on it. Yet, their parents are very likely to lose their love for each other after they arrive, because they forget why they married.
They didn't marry to raise children -- they married to meet each other's intimate emotional needs. And the presence of children tends to make them think that they don't have time and energy to meet those needs anymore. When that happens, they lose their primary motive to be married -- their love for each other.
A man and woman usually decide to marry because they have formed a very successful romantic relationship -- they are in love with each other and are meeting each other's intimate emotional needs. They want to make that romantic relationship last a lifetime, so they marry. At the time, they are optimistic about keeping their love for each other alive, and they don't expect anything to threaten that love -- least of all, children. But if they were to understand how their love was created, and how it is sustained, they would immediately see why children are such a risk.
The two essential ingredients of a romantic relationship -- being in love and meeting intimate emotional needs -- are inseparable. A man and woman love each other because they meet each other's intimate emotional needs, and they meet each other's intimate emotional needs because they love each other. If either one of those factors suffers, the other suffers as well. That's why it's relatively difficult to keep a romantic relationship on track -- it's very fragile.
If living conditions make the meeting of intimate emotional needs more difficult or even impossible to provide, the love a couple has for each other is at risk. They usually don't see their loss of love coming, because they think their love is based on chemistry (they are made for each other) or their willingness to be in love (their love for each other is a decision) -- factors they think guarantee a lifetime of love. But what really sustains love in marriage is neither of those. It is their effectiveness in meeting each other's intimate emotional needs.
continued here
Wife and I declined another offer to hang out with some other friends tonight. In fact we declined two offers that normally we would have accommodated. Its not because we don't want to go hang out with friends, its that we need to be smart and spend that time together. Tentatively we are putting kids down at 730, drinking tea, and reading the workbook, then maybe some scrabble on a Friday night. She asked me about her running Sat morning, I told her the truth that I felt this was not a good idea because it would postpone us spending time together on a morning where nobody works and there is no school. She said, "ok how about I get up really early?", I said sure. At this point I'll have a positive attitude and see if she'll honor that commitment, because if she has a hard time waking up and goes running anyways, that would be a massive LB on a couple of levels. I'm gonna make sure we both go to sleep early tonight so that it is a bit easier for her.
How are the finances?
Go buy a baby jogger stroller, and start thinking about running together.
Improving health and fitness while improving your marriage?
Win/win.
Or, would there be any chance of joining something like the YMCA?
DH and I can't run together (I'm a 5.7mph pace and he's a 4.2mph pace, it just doesn't work. But, we can certainly run side by side on different treadmills.
And, the YMCAs around here have childcare for free.
Or, would there be any chance of joining something like the YMCA?
DH and I can't run together (I'm a 5.7mph pace and he's a 4.2mph pace, it just doesn't work. But, we can certainly run side by side on different treadmills.
And, the YMCAs around here have childcare for free.
We are members and we used to go all the time before baby. I have bad knees from playing basketball my whole life. I've expressed lifting weights together but she doesn't want to. Not a huge deal, and I understand that. We used to walk quite a bit while pushing stroller which was nice, but she is into something more intense.
Why can't you walk on one treadmill and she run on the other? Or on ellipticals next to each other?
Or swimming? Water Aerobics? One on One Basketball? Table Tennis?
There's so many things you can do together, and on the treadmill/bike/elliptical machines you don't have to go the same speed.
And, it's free babysitting. LOL
She's open to the working out, gonna investigate it. That would be incredibly sexy and meaningful on my end. Wife might take a bit to come around though.
Immediately afterwards she saw the "stewing" look on my face
Hey, Hilltopper:
Stop stewing. Your wife says it's a real problem for her, so knock it off, Bud!
Apparently this is still a present problem. She can see when you're feeling this way.
Let me tell you what causes the stewing: it's when you feel like your wife should be doing something, and she's not. Or she's doing it a different way, or she's doing something you think she shouldn't do. In other words, you feel just a little bit like you've got a right to control her, or you are pointed in that direction.
Have more patience with your wife, friend, or this is not going to work. She is very much on board with the concepts here and with posting here and with working with your marriage. She is going to need some time to learn everything. Be patient with her.
You are going to need her to be patient with you, too. You probably need to realize that you are not an easy man to live with and have a romantic relationship with. You should probably express some gratitude to your wife for dealing with that. I'll bet it would go a long way.
If you expect her to be patient with you for your faults and slips (you have some of those, right?) then you are probably going to need to extend the same kind of patience to her. New habits take time to form.
So, what are you doing nice for your wife today?
She's open to the working out, gonna investigate it. That would be incredibly sexy and meaningful on my end. Wife might take a bit to come around though.
PoJA workout!
Brainstorm ideas for how you can work out together at a pace and/or intensity that would be pleasant for you both.
Multiple solutions!
Work through those solutions to find the one that you both
enthusiastically agree on.
Don't waffle, don't "compromise." It's
enthusiastic agreement.
I won't whack you on that one, as I'm guilty of just giving in to whatever the wife wants, and it's her that really pushes me - "You don't seem too enthusiastic..."
No stewing bro but when I mentioned this my wife mentioned why you likely wrote this. Wife sent me an unprovoked stinger cause kids were a little rough so I gave the "huh I don't get it face". We worked through it in two mins flat, learned some things, and are enjoying lovely day with kids. Thx for staying on me I understand where and why you are coming from!
so I gave the "huh I don't get it face".
Don't do that any more.
So, what are you doing nice for your wife today?
Hey, Hill, this was not a rhetorical question....
Hill, you two have a chemical issue at this point. Running and weight lifting are great to help reset. UA isn't all day. When would you be cool with her taking some time Saturday? I agree with HHH, take the baby in a stroller and leave the kids at the neighbor and take a stroll together, too. Not either -or. What do you think?
so I gave the "huh I don't get it face".
Don't do that any more.
Yeah tell me about it, this is bigger than you think. We talked it through some more and realized that my faces are a big problem and she never figured it out until this morning. On the flip side when she says things that I take literally but she meant another way it causes problems as well. She asked if I could stop the faces and I said, "sure"! I asked if she could say what she means and mean what she says, and she said "sure"! So no more faces for Hill and communicate clearly for tgrace. Bing, bang, boom, two more LB's to put to sleep.
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.
I sent her three complaints I had and asked her to send me hers yesterday morning. This was specific to your advice you gave me on the "Love Bank" thread. I haven't even mentioned it since I wrote it. One of the specific issues I addressed was coming up with a POJA about appropriate times to get back to a text, email, phone call, etc. Technically we haven't agreed to an acceptable time on any of it, and I haven't mentioned it all day. I find it tough to initiate repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, we've had a great day, just having a hard time understanding the lack of urgency is all and want some insight.
By the way, dday to kids asleep 2 hours! Then its hubby/wife UA time, very excited. Don't take the comment above as "stewing", especially you Markos.
Ask her for a time to discuss it. I found it a pain in my heart to have my calls ignored, and now that my H actually takes them, my urgency about them is so much less. So answering you will actually work in both of your favors. You'll be less anxious and less likely to call or text, she'll be interrupted less, you'll both be happy. Come to the discussion with an ideal that would make you happy, ask her to come with her ideal, and negotiate a workable solution. Ihad the benefit of a Harley telling my spouse to answer the phone already! You may want to do that.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
Ask her for a time to discuss it.
And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.
Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.htmlPOJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.
Ask her for a time to discuss it.
And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.
Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.htmlPOJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there.
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?
CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.
Yes I've read that link actually. Good night last night, good day today. No "faces" thus far as I'm very aware of it and my wife made a point on a few occasions to communicate a little more clearly to make sure whatever she said was not interpreted differently. Lovely day, lovely day.
Great job, Hill! Keep up the good work!
Wow when it "clicks" it "clicks", things are going well. There is a lot of work to be done and I want to be aware of that feeling of not trying and losing some progress as a result. LB's are mostly gone right now and we'll keep doing that. EN's are better but we have a lot of work to do here. More to come.
Affection is still not good from my wife. This was my #1 EN and she knows that but yet when I hug her, I initiate always and she has this habit of dropping her arms to her side when I do. The other thing she does is do the "push off" when we hug as if to say "Ok, 3 seconds is enough". Body language is pretty powerful. When we kiss it is only a peck on the lips because, "my breath is bad". When we snuggle on the couch, unless I say, "lets spoon", she'll like down by my feet. Obviously no SF either, but that I realize will take some time. Clearly affection doesn't come easy for her and I don't know if that is how she is with everyone or just me. I don't think it is selfish to want my wife to want to be affectionate with me rather than going through the motions right? The no affection thing isn't a post-baby thing, its been going on for a long time. I plan on asking her about affection in general and see how she feels about it and why her body language speaks volumes. It hurts and creates no security on my end in this relationship. The strange thing is affection is one of her top 5 EN's.
Patience, Hill, patience. The first thing you are going to need is to strongly reinforce your patience.
Your wife will feel more affectionate after she receives a LOT more care from you. A LOT!
Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.
That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"
Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.
That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"
I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Yup.
In fact, stop expecting
anything. Just do.
Write her a nice little note, and include things that she has done in the past that felt affectionate to you, that you liked.
I had to write FWW a list of affectionate gestures, because somehow she had brainfarted affection away.
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise. I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me. I hope this confidence and belief changes over time however so don't give up on me. It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.
I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.
Hill, you are doing great. Don't stop. Keep doing nice things for her, because it will have an effect. Your job is to become a nice guy. HER nice guy. A guy who cares for her. All the time, no matter what.
Here is a post that was shared with me awhile back about what is happening. It contains some comments a previous Marriage Builders poster received from Steve Harley over the phone:
We also need to remain nice and communicate with our Ws. We should not LB or DJ no matter what. We should work towards giving affection to our Ws. Yes, I know you'll may say that W will not let me whatever..., but SH means the kind of affection that is under the radar. Things like notes, gestures, maybe little presents etc.. go a long way. His theory is called "rocks in a river" and it is something I hold onto EVERYDAY!
Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.
(Original here, but it's embedded in a longer post:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659425#Post1659425)
Keep tossing rocks in the river!
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.
Rather than asking her, stick to Dr. Harley's worksheets. Ask her if she'd be willing to fill out the SD, DJ, and AO worksheets and give them to you every week. If you don't get any one week, then ask her if she has a worksheet for you. Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to help keep you guys from getting into fights over it. And you need to avoid fights at all costs!
It sounds like you are making great progress. She may not react for awhile, and that is OKAY!
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.
Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.
Patience.
3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.
Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise.
Whoa, nobody's pointing you toward blind faith! Have you reread the Basic Concepts recently? Specifically, the Love Bank? The Love Bank model is not blind faith, it's based on tons of evidence acquired through Dr. Harley's clinical psychology practice. It has worked for literally thousands of couples, on this forum, through books, through Dr. Harley's counseling and practices that followed the same principles.
Every thing you do has an effect on your wife. That is the Love Bank model. No blind faith here; solid decades of Dr. Harley's experience.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
Not after three days, no!
It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.
I know what you mean. A lot of men find this hard to deal with. We want to fix things, we want to make things get better, we want to force a solution.
And if we are not careful, that desire will lead us to do things that are seriously damaging to our relationships with our wives.
You are going to have to relinquish control and come to grips with the fact that it is not all up to you. And you are going to have to let your logic and reason dictate a rational plan that you will stick to (making love bank deposits), rather than letting your emotions drive your actions.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
I'm guessing she's not feeling any confidence that your efforts to fill her love bank are going to have any sticking power either.
Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it.
Do you want a ticker-tape parade? You've done a nice thing. Whoopee. I have no doubt she's done nice things for you in the past that have been unappreciated, as well. So now that you've done one (or two or three) it's supposed to be all hearts and roses and "gee what a swell guy"?
Unless you are a master actor (and based on what I've read, I really do not think you are inscrutable), your wife now knows that her reaction wasn't
good enough for you.
Mozarella Napolean +1
Implicit Criticism -1
As a lovebank-drained wife, I'll tell you there's a strong undercurrent of "prove it". And when the balance is so low, the burden of proof is is awfully high.
Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience.
Hill, there are some great suggestions here for you to incorporate into your plan to make love bank deposits:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.htmlIt doesn't have to be expensive fancy wine every night. The little things count, too.
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
I'm guessing she's not feeling any confidence that your efforts to fill her love bank are going to have any sticking power either.
Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it.
Do you want a ticker-tape parade? You've done a nice thing. Whoopee. I have no doubt she's done nice things for you in the past that have been unappreciated, as well. So now that you've done one (or two or three) it's supposed to be all hearts and roses and "gee what a swell guy"?
Unless you are a master actor (and based on what I've read, I really do not think you are inscrutable), your wife now knows that her reaction wasn't
good enough for you.
Mozarella Napolean +1
Implicit Criticism -1
As a lovebank-drained wife, I'll tell you there's a strong undercurrent of "prove it". And when the balance is so low, the burden of proof is is awfully high.
Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience.
What implicit criticism? I didn't say a thing nor give any reaction at all to her at all, I simply pulled out the bread and crackers to enjoy the moment. Sorry, do you know my wife? Furthermore do you know that she feels that her reactions are not good enough for me? That was a pretty big assumption. There is a big difference between a reaction not good enough and no reaction at all, wouldn't you agree? And as a lovebank-drained husband the sense of urgency to create love in my marriage is very much present.
I see you have the situation well under control and that my perspective is of no value to you. I wish you all the best in recovering your marriage.
Fantastic article and yes I specifically tell my wife I love her multiple times per day. I hug her, kiss her on the way out the door. I send her a text once per day saying, "Have I told you I love you today?" I do the dishes most nights, I bath the kids frequently so she doesn't have to. I may not have painted the appropriate picture as it pertains to affection. My affection for my wife is overflowing. I come from an affectionate family is this is just how I do things. From your perspective if all I do is one nice thing per day and expect some great reaction I totally understand where you are coming from, but this is not at all what is going on. I feel compelled to kiss and hug my wife and tell her I love her, not because a book told me too, but because I want to. Does that change things a bit more? If you show love and affection to someone all the time and you get none or very little in return how should I feel? My affection is not an act and it certainly isn't full of conditions that have to be met. My frustrations and concerns have one source, and that is to have my wife feel love for me and show that love.
Hill,
Markos probably understands where you are coming from more than anyone else. He is a very emotional, affectionate man, and needs affection very much. Affection comes easy for him.
No one expects you to not feel hurt when your wife is not affectionate. It does hurt. I don't believe your affection is false or an act to get something.
BUT, when markos engaged in horrible LB toward me (especially the AOs and DJs), my desire to be affectionate with him disappeared. Why would I be affectionate to a man who hurt me? Your wife is withdrawn and non-affectionate because you have HURT her.
Keep doing what you're doing. It is getting through, although it doesn't look like it at this point.
Keep listening to Markos. He's been right where you are. Very recently, in fact.
Hill,
Markos probably understands where you are coming from more than anyone else. He is a very emotional, affectionate man, and needs affection very much. Affection comes easy for him.
No one expects you to not feel hurt when your wife is not affectionate. It does hurt. I don't believe your affection is false or an act to get something.
BUT, when markos engaged in horrible LB toward me (especially the AOs and DJs), my desire to be affectionate with him disappeared. Why would I be affectionate to a man who hurt me? Your wife is withdrawn and non-affectionate because you have HURT her.
Keep doing what you're doing. It is getting through, although it doesn't look like it at this point.
Keep listening to Markos. He's been right where you are. Very recently, in fact.
I am listenting to Markos, he is my right hand advisor!
I know you'll say it is because we are just different people, but why then do I not really withdraw when my wife AO's, SD's, and DJ's me? I mean I do for like an hour, but then I really don't enjoy the crunchy environment, and typically pursue her. She can withdraw for days if need be and it pains me.
Hilltopper1972,
I was in your shoes a year ago after my husband's affair, I was in Plan A and was doing all the work, I did everything I could, I said what I wanted to say, I made our home a safe place for him to be........
I listened, I cooked for him I told him I understood his feelings and I was accountable for my part.......
I was lucky that he would allow me to hug him every day........he didn't hug back for a long time, but eventually I think he also looked forward to that physical contact between us, it felt right ...........
I would touch him when I walked by..........I would touch his arm when I spoke to him.........I would look right at him when I spoke, it took about 4 months of withdrawal from the OW and all my love deposits to turn things around, now it's him that is working harder than I am in this recovery..........It takes one persons strength and leadership in a situation like this that can turn things around, right now you have to love enough for the two of you.........
Go for it, that's what I did, I looked at it as an opportunity to have the relationship I wanted and I wasn't just lying down and letting it all fall apart.......
I said in the beginning that what the OW didn't take into account in her plan to steal my husband was ME!
All you need is a good solid plan and a lot of patience.........
All the time spent on being a better you and husband will pay off in the end, and look what you will have a woman that will be so madly in love with you. she will be the one making the moves and making you a happy man.....
It does hurt I know I felt that rejection a lot during my process as well........you are strong, keep an eye on the big picture and do what I did, just really enjoy the little bit of physcial you can the hugs, the words........the little touches.....that's good for now..........
Don't rush it, do it right this time..........
jessi
Hilltopper1972,
I was in your shoes a year ago after my husband's affair, I was in Plan A and was doing all the work, I did everything I could, I said what I wanted to say, I made our home a safe place for him to be........
I listened, I cooked for him I told him I understood his feelings and I was accountable for my part.......
I was lucky that he would allow me to hug him every day........he didn't hug back for a long time, but eventually I think he also looked forward to that physical contact between us, it felt right ...........
I would touch him when I walked by..........I would touch his arm when I spoke to him.........I would look right at him when I spoke, it took about 4 months of withdrawal from the OW and all my love deposits to turn things around, now it's him that is working harder than I am in this recovery..........It takes one persons strength and leadership in a situation like this that can turn things around, right now you have to love enough for the two of you.........
Go for it, that's what I did, I looked at it as an opportunity to have the relationship I wanted and I wasn't just lying down and letting it all fall apart.......
I said in the beginning that what the OW didn't take into account in her plan to steal my husband was ME!
All you need is a good solid plan and a lot of patience.........
All the time spent on being a better you and husband will pay off in the end, and look what you will have a woman that will be so madly in love with you. she will be the one making the moves and making you a happy man.....
It does hurt I know I felt that rejection a lot during my process as well........you are strong, keep an eye on the big picture and do what I did, just really enjoy the little bit of physcial you can the hugs, the words........the little touches.....that's good for now..........
Don't rush it, do it right this time..........
jessi
Wow great story, I'm so happy for you and your H. I see a change in my wife which is good and I'm thrilled to get anything I can get. The "affection blow off" thing as I call it takes the wind out of my sails so easily and I shouldn't let it but I do. Thanks Jessi!
Hill, are you doing the things that your wife said make the greatest impact on filling her LB$?
They should be well spelled out on her ENQ. If making her snacks isn't on there, you're wasting effort on things that don't fill her up.
Have you two reached an agreement on the 'making faces' issue? I don't know that her saying STOP and you saying OKAY is going to cut it, because I'm assuming that you were not intentionally making faces, it was more about not being aware you were. Ask her to tell you EVERY TIME you do it. Perhaps keep a pocket mirror handy, so you can immediately see what she sees...or have her snap a picture, lol. Oftentimes to change an annoying bad habit that is mindlessly done, we need the help of those we annoy.
Hill, are you doing the things that your wife said make the greatest impact on filling her LB$?
They should be well spelled out on her ENQ. If making her snacks isn't on there, you're wasting effort on things that don't fill her up.
Have you two reached an agreement on the 'making faces' issue? I don't know that her saying STOP and you saying OKAY is going to cut it, because I'm assuming that you were not intentionally making faces, it was more about not being aware you were. Ask her to tell you EVERY TIME you do it. Perhaps keep a pocket mirror handy, so you can immediately see what she sees...or have her snap a picture, lol. Oftentimes to change an annoying bad habit that is mindlessly done, we need the help of those we annoy.
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
Hilltopper,
I am really impressed at your progress. One day at a time! Your doing great! I know it may seem difficult for the first while .. and that your wifes response is not as you hope, but keep working at it .. and eventually she will come around. Her love bank for you is obviously still in the red, but each deposit brings you that much more out of debt.
Sorry I havent been around that much. I needed to step back as I didnt think my advise was being much help. It was similar to what alot of the others who came in after me .. but i think they worded it far better than I did. I realized my own tactics that i used on my wife was not helping you and from that I was stuck on how to continue helping you. I am also very new at advice giving since it was not that long ago i was in your shoes.
How was your easter? Has your wife made any effort or any noticiable changes? even if very small ones? Any progress is great progress.
Keep up the good work! I will chime in ocassionaly if i feel I may have more to contribute. But as of now I think your on the right track after we slapped you around a bit.
MNG
Hilltopper,
I am really impressed at your progress. One day at a time! Your doing great! I know it may seem difficult for the first while .. and that your wifes response is not as you hope, but keep working at it .. and eventually she will come around. Her love bank for you is obviously still in the red, but each deposit brings you that much more out of debt.
Sorry I havent been around that much. I needed to step back as I didnt think my advise was being much help. It was similar to what alot of the others who came in after me .. but i think they worded it far better than I did. I realized my own tactics that i used on my wife was not helping you and from that I was stuck on how to continue helping you. I am also very new at advice giving since it was not that long ago i was in your shoes.
How was your easter? Has your wife made any effort or any noticiable changes? even if very small ones? Any progress is great progress.
Keep up the good work! I will chime in ocassionaly if i feel I may have more to contribute. But as of now I think your on the right track after we slapped you around a bit.
MNG
Thanks for the note. It got heated in this thread as well as my wifes. I think that was part of the process. I have a hard time not expressing my frustration at some of the posters that came here, made up their mind about who I was and what I was all about, and clearly offered nothing of value, just hate. You were not one of those so don't feel bad. My wife and I are doing amazing actually, last night was the best night in a long, long time. We stayed up till midnight just hanging out, talking, and having fun against our better judgement. We've figured out a tremendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time about each other and I've seen dramatic changes in her almost daily. This thread may not be as juicy as it once was, but hey, what needed to happen is happening with my wife and I and it feels good. Thanks again for everything.
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
I don't know if that's a woman thing, or whatever Hill. The ladies could answer that.
But, I can tell you that my wife is constantly trying to read my face, or more importantly, my
eyes. The dang things give me away - they change color with my mood. Makes sense when you consider thing like blood flow and muscular contraction, or dilation etc effecting the refraction of light in the iris.
Because of this, she totally hates when I wear sunglasses.
Part of it is that she is holding me accountable to be emotionally honest.
You have a feeling, your body reacts, and you make a face, or an expression hits your eyes, and they KNOW "that look." After years of courtship and marriage, they learn to read your face, read your eyes.
Anyway, it's awesome that you guys listed out ideas (for each other, right? you gave her a list, too?). The article here is great, but it's like training wheels. Eventually you are going to have to ride on your own, and having her TELL you how she likes her needs to be met is paramount. Her list represents the links in the bike chain, and without those links you will pedal and go nowhere.
Keep it up!
Your very welcome ... I take it that you guys have progressed from withdrawl... then you moved into conflict (hence the heated 2 threads) then your wife finally joined you in conflict and now your bobbing in and out of intimacy?
I am so glad things are going well for you. Your threads are better off to be less "juicy" becasue that will mean that your gaining ground towards intimacy! Once both spouses are on board it almost takes no time at all .. and once its fully implimented and new habits develop, you guys will be madly in love again and will hardly be able to keep your hands off eachother. I am just glad it didnt take as long for you as it did my wife to come around for me. Now that you got 3 kids have you considered a vasectomy? THAT will really help in the intimacy department especially since you wouldnt have to worry about getting your wife preggo again! THat was one of the best things I ever did for my wife. Did it on a friday ... sat on a bag of frozen peas over the weekend. Wife waited on me for entire weekend and then went back to work on monday. IF your worried about it .. the anticipation was FAR worse than the procedure. If not .. o well . just thought I would throw that in there.
Your doing great Hilltopper. Hopefully your wife will update her thread so we will know how shes doing from her side of the street.
MNG
I have her list and I've implemented about half of the 13 things she likes. I have plans for some more of the expensive one's next month, so for now just the little things. Its bizarre, she told me what she likes, I do those things, then she behaves indifferent to it anyways? Oh well, I'll guess I'll just have to trust it is doing its job.
We agreed that there is no place for faces in our relationship and it was a massive LB each time I did it. They were not intentional and I'm so glad she figured it out because she could never explain what I did that annoyed her. I stopped the moment she told me, haven't done it since. I'll slip I'm sure here and there but the POJA is "NO FACES!"
I don't know if that's a woman thing, or whatever Hill. The ladies could answer that.
But, I can tell you that my wife is constantly trying to read my face, or more importantly, my
eyes. The dang things give me away - they change color with my mood. Makes sense when you consider thing like blood flow and muscular contraction, or dilation etc effecting the refraction of light in the iris.
Because of this, she totally hates when I wear sunglasses.
Part of it is that she is holding me accountable to be emotionally honest.
You have a feeling, your body reacts, and you make a face, or an expression hits your eyes, and they KNOW "that look." After years of courtship and marriage, they learn to read your face, read your eyes.
Anyway, it's awesome that you guys listed out ideas (for each other, right? you gave her a list, too?). The article here is great, but it's like training wheels. Eventually you are going to have to ride on your own, and having her TELL you how she likes her needs to be met is paramount. Her list represents the links in the bike chain, and without those links you will pedal and go nowhere.
Keep it up!
I don't think it is a woman-thing, I think it is a "me thing". I have been told at the office by some staff that occasionally I make them "feel stupid" at times. I never could figure out why, because verbally I don't do it, it is the facial expressions I think. I wear my heart on my sleeve even at work and if I'm annoyed by a question that is very elementary I tend to express a look of annoyance which is wrong. I'm trying to use some of the same MB principles at the office too.
We both have a list and are trying to implement them as best we can to start and I assume this will get easier. I'm working on trying to be more thoughtful and think about things before doing them rather than just going through the motions. An example would be picking out a nice card versus picking out a card that has a special meaning for the two of us. She also likes surprises and I assume this will get easier. I have a lack of confidence in doing romantic things for my wife right now. This perpetuates the problem so I'm making an effort to take the time to think things through and listen carefully to what she is telling me, then react accordingly. I'm getting smarter and have a few tricks up my sleeve which I'll keep to myself.
Your very welcome ... I take it that you guys have progressed from withdrawl... then you moved into conflict (hence the heated 2 threads) then your wife finally joined you in conflict and now your bobbing in and out of intimacy?
I am so glad things are going well for you. Your threads are better off to be less "juicy" becasue that will mean that your gaining ground towards intimacy! Once both spouses are on board it almost takes no time at all .. and once its fully implimented and new habits develop, you guys will be madly in love again and will hardly be able to keep your hands off eachother. I am just glad it didnt take as long for you as it did my wife to come around for me. Now that you got 3 kids have you considered a vasectomy? THAT will really help in the intimacy department especially since you wouldnt have to worry about getting your wife preggo again! THat was one of the best things I ever did for my wife. Did it on a friday ... sat on a bag of frozen peas over the weekend. Wife waited on me for entire weekend and then went back to work on monday. IF your worried about it .. the anticipation was FAR worse than the procedure. If not .. o well . just thought I would throw that in there.
Your doing great Hilltopper. Hopefully your wife will update her thread so we will know how shes doing from her side of the street.
MNG
Yes vasectomy is in the works actually, thanks for the tip. In regards to my wife updated her thread, I hope she does too, I noticed it isn't even on page one anymore. I'm making sure that our little bit of success doesn't make me work less hard at this. I want to be diligent in coming here daily if possible and learning and in the future even helping. The way I see things is that I can get my wife to love me again which is the ultimate goal, or I can try and achieve the greatest marriage on the planet which is even better! Shoot for the stars!
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Yep, you are totally right.
Don't worry too much about her posting. If she is doing the things she needs to be doing, it's all well and good.
Some people just aren't forum people, and that's OK.
Yep, you are totally right.
Hill, a little reading on the pleasure of delayed gratification;
http://artofmanliness.com/2011/03/06/delayed-gratification/
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Did wife agree to the vasectomy AND beer drinking? Another fantastic night of avoiding the LB's and meeting each other's needs. It led to some awesome SF and she initiated. What a fun night I must say. I got her some running related stuff on the way home and support her running as long as we agree when and where. I walked in to a perfectly cooked turkey my wife made me for dinner. Kids to bed, more UA, and affection. She mentioned that we can "go to the gym together" after work so I think this is a POJA on working out together, but I must ask because I'm not sure. She had mentioned that we workout different things and I'm aware of that so I'm gonna see if we can agree on what and I don't want her to feel awkward in doing so. The only thing going bad in our lives is staying up WAY too late and being exhausted the next day.
Vasectomy was a great decision for me. Easiest 45 minutes of my life and then a few days of sitting on the couch and drinking beer.
Did wife agree to the vasectomy AND beer drinking? Another fantastic night of avoiding the LB's and meeting each other's needs. It led to some awesome SF and she initiated. What a fun night I must say. I got her some running related stuff on the way home and support her running as long as we agree when and where. I walked in to a perfectly cooked turkey my wife made me for dinner. Kids to bed, more UA, and affection. She mentioned that we can "go to the gym together" after work so I think this is a POJA on working out together, but I must ask because I'm not sure. She had mentioned that we workout different things and I'm aware of that so I'm gonna see if we can agree on what and I don't want her to feel awkward in doing so. The only thing going bad in our lives is staying up WAY too late and being exhausted the next day.
Does the gym offer any type of Aerobic classes? Or, do you have a local MMA dojo that offers a "Combat Cardio" class?
You don't have to do the same resistance training, but a good aerobic program is always a benefit.
Yes she was enthusiastic to both. You won't be able to pick anything up for the first few days, so keep that in mind.
My wife and I go to the gym together; howhowever, we font work out together because she wants machines and I want free weights.
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
My wife and I go to the gym together; howhowever, we font work out together because she wants machines and I want free weights.
We just negotiate what exercises to do, and always either do the same exercise or something next to each other, because our whole point is the UA time, and the exercise is secondary to that.
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
I'm not KT, but the free weights tone better and make the support muscles work that the weight machines don't.
And, hubby loves that I'll do free weights with him when he's in town.
When he's out of town I stick to the girly weight machines.
t/j to kiltedthrower, can I ask why you prefer free weights?
I could write on teh benefits of machines, but for my goals free weights work better. My workout is typically divided into 2-3 different portions. I have a strength portion in which I primarily concern myself with Olympic lifts, front squat, back squat, deadlift, push press, or dumbbell press. You can't recreate these movements accurately on a machine like you can free weights.
My next workout portion is typically very high intensity metabolism work. As an example, yesterdays workout involved pairing front squats with jumping rope. Or I might run a triple set of burpees (you can google these), dumbbell swings, and chin ups. It�s almost like cardio but with weights. Basically cardio or aerobic work is getting your heart rate up for X amount of time. I can do the same affect but with weights and create an anaerobic environment that burns more calories over all for a longer duration of time than getting bored on a treadmill for 45-60 minutes. And the benefit is you get more done in less time. Check out crossfit.com or crossfitfootball.com for an example of the type of workouts I do (I don�t follow their workouts but mine are similar or based on a lot of the stuff they do). This type of stuff really helps with throwing competitions, playing indoor soccer, and just being really fit. I can get what would normally take me 45-60 minutes done in under 30 minutes. And when you set stuff against the clock, you work faster and harder.
Since I�m now into week 2 of a 12 week competition (like the last one) it behooves me to create as much of a calorie burning environment as possible while building muscle. Doing the machine circuit setup won�t really help me as most if it involves sitting or lying down. But machines are great if you really want to isolate a muscle.
Now I do use machines. I�ll use leg press as an assistance movement after squats. I�ll use the bicep curl machine to if I really want to emphasize the biceps and not worry about engaging other muscles. And I really like the cable machine. One of my other issues is I get really bored sitting on a machine and counting out 10 reps (or how many ever reps you use) and then going to the next machine and doing the same thing.
I�ve also noticed that women �specially love the high intensity stuff. Typically with the female clients I have, I�ll have 1-2 days of typical gym work with a mix of machines and free weights that will take about 30ish minutes with middle reps (no high reps for �toning� There�s no such thing as �toning�. I know what people mean when they say this but tone refers to muscle tone or tonus.) And then I�ll give them a 10 minute �finisher� where they kick their heart rate up into high gear. This helps get them in better shape and get their strength up and some muscle building. Then 1-2 days of real high intensity against the clock type stuff�they usually almost always love these days so much more because it�s challenging and keeps them excited. And the other days gets them excited because they go �Wow! Look! I�m now pressing X lbs and when I started I was only doing X lbs!� Guys do also to some extent like the high intensity stuff but not quite as much as a lot of women do. In fact, if you go and look over at the crossfit.com site, you�ll see a lot of women.
Okay. I think I went off into left field for a simple question lol
We just negotiate what exercises to do, and always either do the same exercise or something next to each other, because our whole point is the UA time, and the exercise is secondary to that.
Sometimes I think it'd be nice if we did also. But she has absolutely no desire to do my type of workouts and I'd be bored to tears if I did her machine circuit. But I think it's awesome you two have worked this healthy habit into UA time.
One time I was trying to show my wife how to do a clean and jerk. Well, I didn't get my head out of the way in time and smashed the bar into my chin and chipped a nice chunk off one of my teeth. She laughed and said, "Ummmm...no thanks"
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
I used to do this type of workouts until we moved and couldn't take the tractor tire with us. Keg throws, sledgehammer swings, tire flips, rope climbing. Maybe when we move back into a house by the end of this year, I'll go get another tractor tire and get back to doing this type of stuff.
It can be hard to get a lot of hypertrophy off this type of workouts is the downside.
And, hubby loves that I'll do free weights with him when he's in town.
When he's out of town I stick to the girly weight machines.
Quick lesson. No such thing as toning. Tone refers to muscle tone or tonus. I blame Cosmo or some other women's fitness magazine for starting this misnomer of a term.
My exercise physiology professor would threaten to throw things at people when they used the word 'toning'.
Depending on the proximity of local parks, or the amount of back yard you have - you could always assemble a "farm boy" home gym consisting of;
2 30ft lengths of 3" rope
1 Large tractor tire
1 10-20lb sledge hammer
1 Keg
Find plans and assemble a chinup bar.
All that, and who needs a gym?
I used to do this type of workouts until we moved and couldn't take the tractor tire with us. Keg throws, sledgehammer swings, tire flips, rope climbing. Maybe when we move back into a house by the end of this year, I'll go get another tractor tire and get back to doing this type of stuff.
It can be hard to get a lot of hypertrophy off this type of workouts is the downside.
If I get any muscular hypertrophy going, the W will kick me out of bed. She likes trim, but not cut.
I think she's on drugs...
Aaaaaaaaaaanyway... my workout yesterday consisted of 30 minutes of mat work in Judo. Almost nothing else compares to the fatigue that 30 minutes of grappling will put on you.
Yep hardest thing I ever did was boxing and wrestling. I think I'll stick to weights but after my wife runs her marathon. I'm excited to cheer her on when she crosses that finish line. Admittedly I didn't do that in the past. It's important to have your husband be there when you accomplish something outstanding! I'm totally fine with her training because she IS spending UA with me now!
If I get any muscular hypertrophy going, the W will kick me out of bed. She likes trim, but not cut.
I think she's on drugs...
That made me laugh. I remember when I first started working out, my wife told me she didn't want me getting "all big and gross". It's funny that the 'bigger' I get the more her definition of what "big and gross" is. Of course I'm no where near bodybuilder big. Yet.
I also laughed the day I got shredded for my last competition. She hadn't been a huge "yay for abs" kinda girl. Then I had these great abs and she said, "You know, I think I do like abs." We all laughed and high fived.
[Okay. I think I went off into left field for a simple question lol
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer this, KT. I have done both: machines and free weights and seem to have better results with free weights. Like you, I do use weights with my cardio and it increases the intensity. I have been doing HIIT solely for the reason that it helps my blood sugar. It does increase my appetite, but both aerobics and HIIT bring down the glucose circulating in my blood stream, which helps my insulinism.
I will head over and check out crossfit. Right now I am doing alot of the older Firms and a Cathe Friedrich HIIT.
Sorry for the threadjack!!
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request so I shifted to thoughtful mode, picked up some "sleepy tea" for her so she could go to bed early and be well rested. Body language was different the entire night. No affection, little sarcastic(both of us), she sat on the recliner and I sat on the couch. Last night before bed I asked respectfully if we could "make sure and not get complacent", and she agreed. She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky." This morning rather than do the stew face I brought it up and mentioned that there was a shift in body language from her and that I had some of the same old feelings as before of not being important to her. Then it began. "Sorry, but its not my fault." "I was tired cause of the kids." "You're reading into it." "If you hadn't of had me stay up late then I wouldn't be so tired." On and on and on. Same thing she always has done in the past which was, "you shouldn't feel this way", and "its not my fault." I admit a "you're crazy woman face slipped out" during an AO by her. She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure. I said, "I don't think we should talk right now" and its been silence ever since. I know it can't be peachy all the time, but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards. I can't control her so I'm gonna be a big boy and attempt to do what I need to do to control me. My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?" We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it. She obviously doesn't want to continue the pattern of staying up late so we need to POJA about it I suppose. I think we also stay up late because it is our only time together during the week. If the kids go down at 8pm and we go to bed at 9pm, then its hard to get enough UA together you know?
Hill, your posts above are absolutely loaded with disrespectful judgments. At the core, it is obvious that you believe that she is wrong to feel the way she feels.
My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
What do you do? You:
* meet emotional needs
* avoid love busters
What are you planning to do nice for her to meet her emotional needs, today?
If she wants to talk about it, let her talk, and listen, and use the information she provides you to modify your behavior. If she does not want to talk about it, don't talk about it.
I have suggested numerous times that you thank your wife for putting up with you, Hill. Here you are going out committing DJs again. That's a lot for your wife to have to deal with. You should probably express your admiration and appreciation to her for putting up with that.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
What did you find disrespectful or demanding about the way she asked? It sounded quite respectful to me, like a request, not a demand.
We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Okay, your perspective here sounds pretty valid to me, but are you saying that her perspective should not have even been expressed? That she was wrong to suggest change?
Remember to use the policy of joint agreement as your guide. If one of you becomes unenthusiastic about something you are doing, even if it's something you've negotiated before, you immediately STOP DOING IT! and begin negotiating something else. Be creative and brainstorm and look for something that will make you both happy.
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired."
That doesn't seem like a very effective way to squeeze in UA time. If she is tired at that time, that would be the WORST time to schedule UA time. I would plan nights OUT, away from the children, at a time when she is not exhausted. Is she exhausted at 5 or 6pm during the week? Is she exhausted at 1:00 on Saturday? Find good times to schedule UA time away from the kids when you are not tired.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
HT, that is not a SD. She was telling you she doesn't want to do that. Do you have the book Lovebusters?
I pointed out this was an SD
There are worksheets for this. It's very difficult for most couples to point out SD, DJ, and AOs to each other on the fly and survive and not get into a fight.
YOU NEED TO AVOID A FIGHT AT ALL COSTS. AT ALL COSTS.
Use the worksheets. Is your wife open to receiving them from you?
Are ya'll scheduling 8 hours of sleep per night?
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?" We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it. She obviously doesn't want to continue the pattern of staying up late so we need to POJA about it I suppose. I think we also stay up late because it is our only time together during the week. If the kids go down at 8pm and we go to bed at 9pm, then its hard to get enough UA together you know?
Your wife's Taker is talking. Marriage Builders is about you learning to please your wife's Taker, so please start listening. Even if you feel she is talking with SDs, DJs, and/or AOs, if you don't find a way to boil down the information that you are getting from her and act on it, your marriage is going to die. This is serious.
I hate to tell someone they are wrong when they said their spouse made a demand, was disrespectful, or had an angry outburst. Usually there is some reason why they felt it was disrespectful or demanding. But I feel like MelodyLane is quite right here: it is not demanding to ask your spouse NOT to do something. It is only demanding to insist that your spouse DO something. There is a really serious difference. The difference is that you can always brainstorm alternatives that will make you both happy. Put in some more time to do that.
It is not demanding to expect your spouse to follow the POJA. Your wife isn't enthusiastic about staying up so late, so don't do it. She's asking you to do nothing and negotiate with her to find something that will make you both happy. You are behind this program, so follow it and get busy doing just that.
I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?"
Sounds like a good way to word a thoughtful request, but your follow-through turned it into a demand, Hilltopper!!!!!!
Remember the key part of a thoughtful request is to be willing to accept "no" for an answer. You are showing some reluctance to take "no" for an answer.
She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request
Screech to a halt right there, Hill! Please don't ever let your wife hear you say "reasonable request" again. Marriage Builders doesn't teach anything at all about reasonable requests. It's not in there.
It doesn't matter what your wife's reasons are or if they are reasonable or make sense. What matters is how she feels. It doesn't matter why she's too tired, what matters is she feels tired!
By commenting on whether her request is "reasonable" or not, you are setting yourself up as the judge of whether your wife is being rational or not. Did you catch that word, "judge"? You are committing a disrespectful judgment. You blew it, guy, I'm sorry to tell you. She's withdrawn now because of your disrespectful judgment. The faster you admit this mistake and own up to it, the faster you guys can get back on track.
She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky."
Frankly, Hill, I think you SHOULD consider yourself lucky. You have a real problem being disrespectful, and your wife is STILL striving hard to meet your emotional needs. You are a pretty lucky guy with a real winner of a wife, and you should TELL her that.
She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure.
Of course she can't stand you when you are disrespectful.
How long do I let things blow over and calm down?
Very disrespectful wording. It's just a little thing to you, she's just being irrational, and you just need it to "blow over."
Go face your disrespectful screwups. It'll help.
I know it can't be peachy all the time,
Yes it can, actually, but you have more work to do to get there. It can't be peachy the way you are going about it.
but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards.
I suggest you go get a babysitter and invite your wife out to do something you both enjoy at a time when she is not tired.
I can't control her so I'm gonna be a big boy
Ouch. You just strongly implied you are big and she is little.
I agree that you're impatient. Things are going well and because of 1 night now you're up in arms about how to handle this or that.
It would have been better if instead of 'wheeling and dealing' by "If I put the kids down..." How about just be nice realizing she's tired. "Honey, go relax in the bath while I get the kids in bed. I know you've had a long day and you're tired."
If you're expecting SF every day you're going to be disappointed. That is unreasonable. So you had SF the night before, do the bath thing/kids down and let her get some rested sleep, then try and set up for some quality SF tomorrow or hte next day.
but needless to say this was very disappointing and a huge step backwards.
Hill, I know you are disappointed. But you are going to need to let your logical and rational side take control and keep you following a proven plan to reestablish intimacy in your relationship. If you let your emotions take charge you will bog down in your own personal disappointment and you guys will stay this way and get worse.
Hill, have you ever heard that women tend to be more emotional and men tend to be more logical? There's some truth to that, to the point that many women are rightly annoyed at their husbands over it. But that's based on looking at "typical" men and "typical" women. Nobody is truly "typical."
Some men tend to be more emotional than other men. More things bother them. You know, in a good relationship, a woman can still usually list a lot of things that bother her, while a typical man isn't bothered by anything! All the things that bother him disappear when the relationship is good, because his mind simply blocks it out. While a woman's mind usually doesn't work that way.
But some of us men are more easily bothered than others.
It is hard for a typical logical man to learn to "put up with" his emotional wife.
But it is far, far more difficult for a typical emotional woman to learn to PUT UP WITH an atypical emotional man.
Because you tend to be this way, your wife has a much harder job to do than most wives. She is going to have to work a lot harder to learn how to meet your emotional needs effectively, negotiate with you, and avoid love busting you. You have a lower threshold for being bothered!
There's nothing wrong with that. I'm that way myself.
But it does mean that your wife needs a big giant MEDAL, every day, just for being your wife. Awarded by you. She needs to hear from you that you know you are a difficult man to live with and that you appreciate what she is going through to live with you.
The good news is, emotional men can have really, really good and passionate marriages. But you won't get there if you aren't rational about planning to get there, and if you don't stick to the plan.
If you have ever trouble appreciating your wife, just look back to your most recent disrespectful judgments (which were moments ago), and realize what you are putting her through.
I'll go back and answer each of these points and posts but before I do I wanted to provide some perspective on both my wife and myself that is very relevant on how we both handle situations. Normally it wouldn't be a big issue, but I feel in this particular case that because we are so far on the other end of the spectrum, the insight will help give you some info that might make it easier to teach me.
I grew up with parents that made sure there were consequences, good and bad, for every action. If I lied, I got busted. If I did good in school I got rewarded, etc. I always knew where I stood with Mom and Dad and they were always on the same side of the fence. They were tough on me no doubt and by no means did they raise me perfectly, but never the less I'm a product of that parenting philosophy.
My wife grew up in a family of excuses. Its not a DJ, it is just how they do things. I've mentioned before that my wife, her brother, and her Mother make excuses and blame people for anything they want at any time. I won't get into why they do it, you can draw your own conclusions.
Although I was disappointed last night, I told you I had shifted into "thoughtful" mode so that my tired wife could go to bed early. I put the kids down, brushed their teeth, etc. I do just about every night. I held baby and tried to get her down until she got to the point of "I just want mommy", so my wife grabbed her just to get the job done faster. I put on a kettle and made her the sleepy tea. I suppose it was a DJ on my part to state that I wanted to make sure we didn't get complacent in our MB efforts to which she agreed. I could tell she didn't want to spend a bunch of time on that so I let it go and she went to bed.
This morning I was in the shower and said, "Hey I wanted to bring something up about last night." I could see in her face a look of, "Oh boy here we go Hubby is stewing again." I mentioned that I knew she was tired, but that the attempt to meet EN's yesterday was kind of absent. From this point forward and to this actual moment in time my wife didn't make any statements that weren't blaming me or circumstances for why she wasn't able to meet any EN's. After every blame I made a face which made it escalate obviously. I was wrong to make the face and it was not something I was able to control at that moment but will work extremely hard to avoid this at all costs. It got so bad at one point that my wife quite literally blamed her blaming on me.
As I was driving to the office it occurred to me just how much of a LB blaming is. She didn't blame me at all for anything in those last three blissful days we spent together and it was great. I pulled over and sent her one text that said "blaming + faces = fights." It was kind of a revelation. I react really poorly to blames and told you that I don't let my kids get away with it. I need help with this. It is a huge LB and I let her know this, but more than that how do I deal with it when it happens. I can't ignore it. I definitely could not make a face. What do I say? When I say something about it, it typically makes her do several blames in a row. Any advice here?
Hill, your posts above are absolutely loaded with disrespectful judgments. At the core, it is obvious that you believe that she is wrong to feel the way she feels.
My question is, what do I do from here? How long do I let things blow over and calm down? I'll go read some more in a bit here, gonna work out of the house today so maybe we'll have some time to chat. Stay tuned.
What do you do? You:
* meet emotional needs
* avoid love busters
What are you planning to do nice for her to meet her emotional needs, today?
If she wants to talk about it, let her talk, and listen, and use the information she provides you to modify your behavior. If she does not want to talk about it, don't talk about it.
I have suggested numerous times that you thank your wife for putting up with you, Hill. Here you are going out committing DJs again. That's a lot for your wife to have to deal with. You should probably express your admiration and appreciation to her for putting up with that.
She can be tired, in fact I bought her sleepy tea because she was tired. I respect her right to be tired and to feel any way she wants. I press discussing things because if I don't initiate they just won't be discussed at all. I pressed her on MB and despite push back and conflict she is here. Pushing is wrong and its also right depending on circumstances and I have a hard time figuring out when and where I guess. Avoiding things just to keep it pleasant causes resentment and I know this. One more thing, when I mention things here to you all letting you know how I feel, it doesn't mean I said that exact thing to my wife. I'll try and do a better job of pointing out my feelings versus my actual comments to my wife.
By the way she did say, "If we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then we can hang out comment." I pointed out this was an SD, she didn't like my having done so. To her credit later she said, "How can I respectful ask you not to stay up super late with me?"
What did you find disrespectful or demanding about the way she asked? It sounded quite respectful to me, like a request, not a demand.
We've been having fun together so the staying up late seemed natural to me, like if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Okay, your perspective here sounds pretty valid to me, but are you saying that her perspective should not have even been expressed? That she was wrong to suggest change?
Remember to use the policy of joint agreement as your guide. If one of you becomes unenthusiastic about something you are doing, even if it's something you've negotiated before, you immediately STOP DOING IT! and begin negotiating something else. Be creative and brainstorm and look for something that will make you both happy.
It was a SD. She said if we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then she'll meet my needs, affection, SF, etc. She said that I have to behave a certain way and if I did she would then meet some of my EN's, that in my book is a textbook SD. The tone also was in line with the SD. After I told her that sounded like an SD, she then said, "how can I respectfully request that we not stay up so late." That part was great. Best part of the entire conversation this morning, in fact.
Hill, you said that she started with the "It's not my fault" stuff...did she actually say, "It's not my fault!" or is that something you inferred?
As far as the things about being tired because 1. stayed up too late the night before and 2. the kids have worn her out, those aren't blaming and they're not even excuses...they are EXPLANATIONS.
Is she 'allowed' to explain why she feels a certain way without you getting angry?
Average night, not a good morning. I have all the same old feelings of me not being important to my wife after last night. Affection shut off like a faucet, she said she was just tired. I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?" She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired."
That doesn't seem like a very effective way to squeeze in UA time. If she is tired at that time, that would be the WORST time to schedule UA time. I would plan nights OUT, away from the children, at a time when she is not exhausted. Is she exhausted at 5 or 6pm during the week? Is she exhausted at 1:00 on Saturday? Find good times to schedule UA time away from the kids when you are not tired.
It probably isn't effective and this is a huge challenge. My wife tries to please everyone so the social calendar is quite full. She has done a better job of politely saying no to some events of late and I love that, but during the week it is just sit down and hold on tight you know? It felt good for both of us to stay up late which is why we did it, in fact I mentioned it was a lot like we were dating. I can see its taken its toll however on her being very, very tired.
Hill .. I am glad your last few days have been Blissful ... however you need to keep up the good work and reward your wife for her attempt to MB. Giving her some space is also necessary especially when you have 3 small children like you have. She will get "touched out" far easier than you will since she is with them for a majority of the day. This WILL get easier as they grow .. so you will have to grin and bear it for a while.
HAve you looked into the Maca Root for your wifes low energy? Maca is not only a libido booster .. but its a hormone balancer and a great energy increaser! My wife was very skeptical about it .. but I kid you not .. it works like a charm! Takes about 5 days to fully take effect with the full dosage.
One average day after 3 good days? I would say thats pretty good Hilltopper .. I hope you let your wife now just how awesome she was for having those good days and the affection you did recieve?
MNG
I pointed out this was an SD
There are worksheets for this. It's very difficult for most couples to point out SD, DJ, and AOs to each other on the fly and survive and not get into a fight.
YOU NEED TO AVOID A FIGHT AT ALL COSTS. AT ALL COSTS.
Use the worksheets. Is your wife open to receiving them from you?
Yes we have them and I'll ask her if she wants to implement starting tonight.
Hilltopper,
You are blaming her. Cut it out.
I'll start reading through some of this, but I can tell from your tone you are still busy defending your perspective and why you think your situation is unique here, etc. There have been dozens of PRACTICAL suggestions offered for you here this morning as well as a number of QUESTIONS.
What will help your marriage would be if you would:
* answer the questions
* implement the practical suggestions
It's great you are having insights into problems, but your insight sounds like a disrespectful judgment to me. You educated her on how each of you have a role in contributing to fights. That's what your arithmetic text comes across as.
Quit telling us why your wife is hard to deal with and start following the suggestions.
It was a SD. She said if we don't stay up late for a week and drink wine, then she'll meet my needs, affection, SF, etc. She said that I have to behave a certain way and if I did she would then meet some of my EN's,
That sounds like an awesome and fair trade to me. It sounds like a proposal, not a demand.
She is letting you know under what circumstances she would be enthusiastic about the things you want. Following the FGSN, you will now need to come up with a solution that incorporates her perspective.
She is being open and honest about how she feels and telling you the map to getting what you want. You are one lucky man to have such a communicative wife. Don't screw this up now. Pay attention to what she is telling you.
that in my book is a textbook SD.
You wrote the book? :P
I can't even figure out what she was demanding of you. What was she demanding that you
DO?
Hill, we are here to help you, but you need to listen.
You are loaded with demands and disrespectful judgments.
Your wife is not demanding to say "I can't meet your EN if I don't get more sleep." She's being open and honest. If you ignore what she is telling you, you will not be able to have a good marriage.
I'll go back and answer each of these points
Please do not try to rebut the points that were made to you. That will not do anyone any good, least of all you.
Are you looking for a happy marriage? Would you like to know why your wife is upset? Would you like to know what you could do to change things?
I sent her a note in the afternoon about "if I put all the kids down tonight and pick up some bath salts on the way home would you be open to taking a bath with me?"
Sounds like a good way to word a thoughtful request, but your follow-through turned it into a demand, Hilltopper!!!!!!
Remember the key part of a thoughtful request is to be willing to accept "no" for an answer. You are showing some reluctance to take "no" for an answer.
She sent a note back, "honestly I'm too tired." We had stayed up late, reasonable request
Screech to a halt right there, Hill! Please don't ever let your wife hear you say "reasonable request" again. Marriage Builders doesn't teach anything at all about reasonable requests. It's not in there.
It doesn't matter what your wife's reasons are or if they are reasonable or make sense. What matters is how she feels. It doesn't matter why she's too tired, what matters is she feels tired!
By commenting on whether her request is "reasonable" or not, you are setting yourself up as the judge of whether your wife is being rational or not. Did you catch that word, "judge"? You are committing a disrespectful judgment. You blew it, guy, I'm sorry to tell you. She's withdrawn now because of your disrespectful judgment. The faster you admit this mistake and own up to it, the faster you guys can get back on track.
She did make one sarcastic comment last night about the previous night which stuck which was, "well I gave you SF last night and met your needs" as if to say "I gave you loving now I get to take the day off from MB and you should consider yourself lucky."
Frankly, Hill, I think you SHOULD consider yourself lucky. You have a real problem being disrespectful, and your wife is STILL striving hard to meet your emotional needs. You are a pretty lucky guy with a real winner of a wife, and you should TELL her that.
She through in a "I can't stand you" comment for good measure.
Of course she can't stand you when you are disrespectful.
How long do I let things blow over and calm down?
Very disrespectful wording. It's just a little thing to you, she's just being irrational, and you just need it to "blow over."
Go face your disrespectful screwups. It'll help.
I didn't mention the bath ever again or imply that I was even disappointed about it actually. What demand did I make? My text back after the tired comment was exactly this, "Agreed. Totally understand. Are those rolls still left over for turkey sandwiches?" Then she mentioned, "Baby is a terror" in a reply. I sent back the following, "Its ok I got that little bugger tonight! Kids down at 730, wife drink sleepy tea I got, hubby do his thing while wife go upstairs and crash to recharge."
I didn't mention anything about a "reasonable request" to my wife at all. I was suggesting to you all that I felt her not wanting to take a bath because she was tired was a very reasonable request in my head which is why I went to the sleepy tea plan.
The comment she made about giving me SF the night before was her comment to me and it was intended, I believe but I could be wrong, to let me know that she gave me SF and therefore she can treat me any way she wants.
I'm asking you how long I should let us both chill out before speaking again. What am I missing here? You said give her space, I trust that is the right thing to do, so how long do I wait to communicate again to avoid the fight scenario?
Pushing is wrong and its also right depending on circumstances and I have a hard time figuring out when and where I guess.
Pushing NEVER make Love Bank deposits. It ALWAYS withdraws them.
Even in a GREAT marriage, complaints (which are a good thing) make withdrawals.
Your marriage cannot handle complaints right now. You are both too deep in the red.
Start filling that woman's Love Bank and QUIT THE COMPLAINTS for now. STOP PUSHING. Fill the Love Bank. That is your goal right now. Fill the Love Bank.
She can't concentrate on filling yours right now because she is too busy having to protect herself from you.
One more thing, when I mention things here to you all letting you know how I feel, it doesn't mean I said that exact thing to my wife. I'll try and do a better job of pointing out my feelings versus my actual comments to my wife.
You may not say the DJs. But it still affects the way you treat your wife. The things you think turn into action. Stop dwelling on those negative thoughts. They are not productive. FILL HER LOVE BANK.
I agree that you're impatient. Things are going well and because of 1 night now you're up in arms about how to handle this or that.
It would have been better if instead of 'wheeling and dealing' by "If I put the kids down..." How about just be nice realizing she's tired. "Honey, go relax in the bath while I get the kids in bed. I know you've had a long day and you're tired."
If you're expecting SF every day you're going to be disappointed. That is unreasonable. So you had SF the night before, do the bath thing/kids down and let her get some rested sleep, then try and set up for some quality SF tomorrow or hte next day.
Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively. Read previous post about how things went down last night. I did put the kids down and I almost always put the kids down. I know it might be common for the wife do handle the kids and the husband to sit on the couch with a beer in one hand and the tv remote in the other, not this one, ok? I'm extremely hands on, very involved in my kids life, etc.
I'm not expecting SF every day, you are coming to that conclusion on your own.
Hill, you said that she started with the "It's not my fault" stuff...did she actually say, "It's not my fault!" or is that something you inferred?
As far as the things about being tired because 1. stayed up too late the night before and 2. the kids have worn her out, those aren't blaming and they're not even excuses...they are EXPLANATIONS.
Is she 'allowed' to explain why she feels a certain way without you getting angry?
Yes that is exactly what she said. The phrases most typically are pointed at me and start with the following, "Well if you had(hadn't) blah, blah, blah, then..............."
Geez I need to figure out how to communicate with you all more effectively.
Hilltopper, I have been right where you are. I can promise you that you don't need to invest any effort in communicating more effectively with us.
A very, very kind soul here took me aside, REPEATEDLY, and patiently explained to me, over and over again, that I was the source of many of the difficulties in my marriage.
It took awhile for the message to take. In the meantime, devastation occurred.
I think you need to invest more effort in listening and in trying to see how we are right, rather than more effort in trying to communicate to us to prove yourself right.
I've been right. I am extremely dangerous when I am right. I am also very unhappy when I am right.
I have discovered that I would rather be wrong and happy.
Please go back and read the completely practical suggestions you have been given, especially the one from MelodyLane which you did not even acknowledge in your reply to her.
The solution is here, and it does not involve you explaining your conflict with your wife to us in minute detail. Stop giving us more information. We have enough. We know what you need to do differently. Are you ready?
I don't think either one of you should be saying if you do A, B, C I'll meet your needs only then. The assumption is that both of you will meet the ENs and no LBsw. And you will get your UA time in. These are not supposed to be hoops we jump through. We do things because we want our spouse to feel loved and not what we can get out of it.
Now if you two could stop being angry at each other and follow the worksheets.
HT, read BOTH OF THESE;
Good Things Come to Those Who Wait: The Power and Pleasure of Delayed GratificationOne of the things everyone wants most in life is to feel, period. Not simply to feel good, but to just to feel, and feel deeply. This is why while women have a reputation for creating drama, I know guys who do it too�by say cheating on a girlfriend they really love�to subconsciously create a situation of great angst. Because paradoxically, even though angst is a �negative� emotion, it�s pleasurable on some level to simply feel something�anything�so intensely.
But there are healthier ways of feeling more deeply than creating drama for yourself, such as purposefully cultivating hunger (and I mean hunger here in a much broader sense than the appetite for food).
We often think of hunger as �bad� and satiation as �good.� But each state is part of the spectrum of human experience and each has value; every man needs to intensely feel both of them to understand himself and the world.
If you want to experience the fullness of life, you have to be content to feel both satiation and hunger; if you�re always stuffed from having gorged on life�s pleasures, you�ll miss out on a whole other dimension of the human experience.
You keep pushing for instant gratification, and it is driving both you and your wife nuts.
Why? Why do that to yourself, when the reward for the work and patience required to do this right will be much greater?
Building Your Resilinecy: Part VI-Quit CatastrophizingCatastrophizing essentially involves imagining and dwelling on the worst possible outcome of something. It�s basically overreacting and letting your thoughts run away to dire and highly unlikely scenarios. It�s the kind of thing that happens when you�re lying awake at three in the morning worried sick about the future and what�s going to happen to you.
Catastrophic thinking proceeds like a chain. One �what if� leads to another until you�re picturing yourself homeless on the street.
Catastrophizing can take two forms. It can spring from an actual event, like taking law school finals. Or it can simply be the product of gazing into the future and imagining one�s life taking a terrible turn.
YOU are doing this. You have ONE NIGHT where your wife is wore out, and you throw your hands up and whine; "It's going right back to where we were before!"
It's ONE DAY, hill. MB isn't a magic pill. It's not some infomercial secret to getting rich quick.
It's a systematic change of thinking and acting to help to rebuild and improve your marriage.
Everyone LOVES to toss around the cliche' that "a good marriage takes work," but some people just don't do the dang work.
Quit whining, suck it up, AND DO THE WORK.
HHH well said ... err .. posted. lol
I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit. I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it, I thought it was pretty surprising to be honest. The only person that addressed it directly was actually my wife about 15 mins ago!
Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.
Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".
These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"
Wow, Hill, way to snub everyone who is trying to help you. Is this how you talk to your wife when you're frustrated?
Actually no not at all, but you were all smacking me upside the head so I figured it was ok for me to do it back a little bit.
Mature.
Do you want help or not?
I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,
Not true. Did you actually read the responses?
I can appreciate you addressing my impatience and I respect that, will heed your advice and work on it starting now. What I don't respect is me coming here and explaining a massive Lovebuster that my wife does and you hardly acknowledge it. CWMI seems to think her compulsive blaming is really just a her form of explaining things. The rest of you didn't bring it up at all as if it doesn't even matter. I've said this before MB works when two people are on board, accept responsibility for not meeting EN's and LB's, then change their behavior accordingly. When my wife told me my faces bothered her I didn't tell her that was her fault for me having made the face. It was my fault, I acknowledged it, it bothered her so I stopped doing it. So when I told her that her blaming was a huge LB, then she blames me for having caused her to lay blame in the first place, not only is it illogical but it made me feel this is an impossible position for me to be in. I've said it before, how do I compete with that?
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me? Affection got shut off like a faucet immediately following three fantastic nights including one with SF. With the experiences I've had in this marriage how can I not be concerned? There were no LB's all day, I was patient, I asked her about the bath, got her sleepy tea instead, it was all there. I can appreciate being tired and not wanting to take a bath or have SF, etc. This was very different. This was, I'm(wife) too tired, I'm(wife) gonna sit over here by myself today. I'm(wife) also gonna be very sarcastic which I normally don't do. So in my shoes it was, well where did the affection go and who is this person sitting across the room from me? This is the same person that that I felt neglected and unimportant to which brought me to MB in the first place. Does that make sense? So no, I'm not a mind-reader I didn't attribute it to her just being tired and it concerned me very much, that is all there is to it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage. I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
Get over yourself, dude.
Really. I'm not coming from some high-faluting place when I post to you. Not like I have some life of perfection. I had my wife so disinterested in me, that she took up sleeping with another man.
Don't pull this crap like you are some kind of victim, and use it to justify your screw ups, buddy. Ain't gonna work.
Man up, take your lumps, and quit whining about how hard it is.
WE KNOW how hard it is, some of us are still living it.
Don't bother telling me to shut up and get to work and I should thank my wife for putting up with me and my desire for a healthy marriage.
You've never actually done that, have you? That was a serious suggestion I passed on straight from Dr. Harley, Hill. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with three decades of experience working with marriages and restoring romantic love, so I think he knows a little bit about what he's talking about.
I wasn't offering it as a commentary on you. I was suggesting you actually open your mouth and say it.
But if you don't want my advice, Hill, that's okay.
I brought up a huge LB in my marriage, everybody all but ignored it,
On the contrary, Hill, people went and posted to your wife about it.
Meanwhile, we have brought up a lot more than one huge LB which you have committed, and so far I've seen you do precisely nothing about it other than argue with us.
This plan doesn't work if you don't follow it.
So sure I'm whiny and impatient and I want it all now, all of that is very valid, but geez can you blame me?
No, I don't blame you for feeling impatient at all. Now, do you want to follow a plan that can get you what you are impatient to have? Or would you rather continue to tear it all down with your bare hands?
I'm working my a** off at this and have been the entire time. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go find something nice to do again for my wife to meet her EN's against my instincts that are telling me to go into Taker mode.
All your work will be for naught if you don't do something about the love busters you are committing. You will never be able to fill your account in her love bank fast enough. If you will listen to us instead of debating with us, we can help you.
Put it on the LB sheet that when she says "It's not my fault because..." it's an annoying habit. On the ENQ, you can write the solution under meeting your need for conversation in 'how it can be better satisfied': discuss things without assigning fault.
Look, I know how hard it is to have conversations when there's different communication styles. My H and I had a breakthrough the other day--he thinks I don't listen and that's why I misunderstand what he says. I think he's not clear. We had a very specific conversation and later he mentioned something about who we'd talked about, and I said, "Oh, the guy who xyz?" and he got flustered and said no, that was somebody else, I never listen, etc...but here's the thing I noticed. When we'd had the first conversation, it began by him telling me about this client he met late in the day, some trivial facts, and then he says, "So then this guy goes to show me..etc" and I thought we were talking about the same guy. He smoothed right into it. Glad I noticed it, so I could tell him that his transitions weren't clear enough for my literal head. We're talking about a guy, he refers to 'this guy', my head puts it on the last person referred. What he meant was "This OTHER guy".
These are the little nit-picky nuances of marital conversation that only need to be discovered and dealt with, not fussed over and fought about. If I can say, "Hey, are we talking about the same thing, or have you changed subjects?" you can say, "Hey, you said 'fault' again, I don't care about fault, I care about you. Just tell me what you want to say without all the fault stuff, okay?"
Thanks for this anecdote, it is similar to a lot of what we go through. I'll work on my delivery when I want to bring something up with her and I'll tell her to try and hold back the instinctive response of blame. I'm getting hammered for DJ's so maybe all issues should be reserved for the workbook.
Hill, can I ask you something?
Where do you want to be a year from now?
You and your wife remind me A LOT of Markos and me. When we first got here, we posted post after post that consisted of "He did THAT to me," or "She's doing this!" Whiny, whiny posts full of frustration and hurt.
We were both committed to doing the program, but we were also both in full Taker mode, and way too busy pointing fingers and wanting to nitpick every single conflict.
Eventually, I quit. I thought our marriage was horrible then, but we REALLY went through hell after that.
Now, a year later, we are finally picking up the pieces and starting over by doing things RIGHT. The really, really sad thing is that we could've had a wonderful marriage a year ago.
This program is not about pointing fingers and talking about how horrible your spouse's LB are. This is not a place to vent and get sympathy. This is a place to work on YOU. This is a program that teaches YOU how to show care for your wife, and how to protect her from yourself. This program doesn't help you to rub your spouse's nose in the wrongs she's committed, nor to demand that she right those wrongs -- rather, it helps you show her how to care for you and to protect you.
When you fill out the LB forms, do so with the mindset that you're helping your spouse protect you. Don't wallow in your hurts, or resent your spouse for hurting you. It can be far, far worse. Trust me.
You're in this together. Help each other. You are not each others' enemy. Follow the program, and learn from each how to care for each other. Do so with gentleness, kindness and self control.
Pointing fingers and having pity parties is not going to cut it.
Where do you want to be a year from now? In love? Or starting over?
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Yes I have thanked my wife for putting up with me.
I do want help very much so. I read and reread the responses and no I did not see responses and did not see responses aside from CWMI's response about blaming as a LB.
I think I push for instant gratification because I think or feel that 1+2=3 and if we start doing these things now gratification can be felt. We did that both for three days and we were gratified. Yesterday I kept up that effort so I thought it would turn out the same way. When it didn't I looked for a reason why and reacted incorrectly I suppose.
But remember that it didn't take a day to get your marriage into the state that it is. It's going to take more than a day to get the marriage where you want it.
This all takes practice and changing habits that you've ingrained in yourself (and herself also). Most of us on here were in the same boat that you and your wife were and we're giving you the tools that have made us successful in our marriages.
I know this. Internalizing this and remembering it in a moment of feelings is a hard thing to overcome at times.
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Then change your outlook.
Start changing YOU.
Let your wife work on herself.
Stop getting hung up on each LB she does to you -- send her a respectful LB form at the end of each week with the mindset that you are helping her take care of you (NOT with the mindset of pointing out her faults and demanding she change). Dwelling on the painful mistakes your wife has made will not get you there.
Remember that she
wants to care for you.
Encourage your wife to do the same so that you can learn how to care for her.
Learn from each other.Fill each others' Love Banks.
Enjoy the journey. (Steve Harley told me this one at the beginning of the year last year -- I didn't listen)
Please do not make the same mistakes Markos and I did. Stop fighting over what each other is supposed to do and start helping each other. You are not each others' enemy. Stop acting like it.
A year from now I'd like to have love in my marriage, in fact well before a year. I hate starting over each time more than you know.
Then change your outlook.
Start changing YOU.
Let your wife work on herself.
Stop getting hung up on each LB she does to you -- send her a respectful LB form at the end of each week with the mindset that you are helping her take care of you (NOT with the mindset of pointing out her faults and demanding she change). Dwelling on the painful mistakes your wife has made will not get you there.
Remember that she
wants to care for you.
Encourage your wife to do the same so that you can learn how to care for her.
Learn from each other.Fill each others' Love Banks.
Enjoy the journey. (Steve Harley told me this one at the beginning of the year last year -- I didn't listen)
Please do not make the same mistakes Markos and I did. Stop fighting over what each other is supposed to do and start helping each other. You are not each others' enemy. Stop acting like it.
Yep I'm aware of all of this as is she, it is the discipline part that sneaks in there at times. I consciously try to make decisions and take an extra minute to think before I do things. I find myself biting my tongue quite a bit more than I used to and I'm sure she does the same. We recovered yesterday very quickly and had a nice night.
So I know I need to work on me and that my wife needs to work on her. This concept is hard. I know I'm not a patient man which causes me to look at my wife's side of the fence more than I should. As it pertains to affection which is my number one EN, if I don't initiate or ask it just doesn't happen. We had three wonderful nights earlier this week where I felt like my wife, "got it". She was affectionate to me and showed her love to me through physical affection. That affection stopped Thursday, continued into Friday, and continued this morning. I left work early yesterday, stopped by the mall, got her a cute sweat suit, a gift card to her favorite specialty tea store, and an amazing piece of cheesecake. I walked through the door so excited to shower my wife with gifts because I love her. I made her her favorite buffalo mozzarella salad, filet mignon, etc. She was grateful, don't get me wrong, but my efforts to meet her EN's don't really ever lead me to believe that it has an impact like you say that it should or will. I don't believe the intention of me working on me means that I should just "take the scraps" as someone put it earlier in this thread. I have no intentions of being a doormat and giving into a marriage that I get very little back out of. Is that fair to say? My specific question is, how do I approach letting my wife know that she doesn't meet my EN for affection? You've said be more patient and just wait. But you also say that I need to make sure I am brutally honest and say how I'm feeling. I spoke up this morning about this subject, my wife didn't like it, and we are back at the starting point. My wife is the most important thing to me and she said she feels that, the opposite is not at all true. It doesn't feel good to my wife "gets to me when she gets to me." I just don't know when I'm supposed to shut up and when I'm supposed to speak up. If I shut up, like I have in the past, nothing changes. If I speak up, she doesn't like it and gets irritated at me. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground, but I could be wrong, I'm all ears.
I'm not hear to fight you all, just tell me how you see it, ask whatever questions you want and I'll answer them truthfully. I just want forward progress.
But you have to remove the LBs before you will really see progress. You can meet every EN on the list and if you're LBing, it's not gonna help much.
Is receiving gifts on your wife's EN important list? If not, you could buy her a billion dollar diamond ring and it's not gonna matter a lot. My wife isn't concerned with gifts or monetary things. She does like the occassional thoughtful gift but it doesn't do much for her if I buy her things. However, doing the dishes, folding clothes, playing with the kids makes her beam. Her two top ENs are family commitment and domestic services so this is where I concentrate my efforts the most.
You can be brutally honest without lecturing or coming off as impatient. Your wife has identified two of her LBs are your impatience and lecturing. Stop those. �Honey, I could really use more affection. I�ve really missed your touch the last couple of days.� Then give her a hug and go on. However if you say, �you know, it�s been two days since you�ve shown me affection. We�re supposed to be working this program, and you�re not meeting my needs.� Well�that aint helping the situation.
Going back to me, my wife has a high need for DS. During soccer season, I can have some late nights getting home and am just busy. So I might have a day or two in a row that I don�t help a lot with cooking and cleaning. If my wife were to start outlining that I haven�t done this and that for X amount of days, I wouldn�t like that. However, if she were to say, �I really need help with the house; it�s dirty. I don�t have time to get to the dishes, can you help?� Sure, absolutely. I do make every effort to make sure I�m meeting her needs on a daily basis. When you drop the LBs and get the ENs met on a consistent basis over time, then when you miss a day or two here and there it�s not quite as big of a deal.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.". How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.".
This would be called a DJ. Stop inferring things. However you can state how you feel. "Honey, I'm feeling lonely and unimportant. I'd appreciate it if we could have some alone time together after the kids are down."
How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
Don't show impatience. Use drive-by honesty without being rude and impatience. State what you need and not necessarily what she is doing wrong. Have you ever had a hobby that you did for fun without any expect of return. For right now view this as a hobby with ferver.
I'm an afterthought to my wife. It feels horrible. Her words, her body language, all of it speaks, " look I'll get around to finding you important when I get to it, back off.". How can I want to keep giving to that person? I'll work on how I approach being brutally honest I for sure showed impatience.
Hill... Hill, Hill, Hill...
Can you man up a bit, and give your week a one week stretch where she can try to get things going without you having a meltdown?
Hill, you're not trying very hard at this program at all. You get impatient and expect this and that. I have a feeling you don't make it very pleasant to be around when you get disappointed or things aren't going your way. This is the second time in two days when things haven't gone your way that you've gotten really extreme on teh deep end.
STOP BEING SO EMOTIONAL! If I'm getting this over a screen, imagine what someoen living with you is getting.
Now DECIDE to have a good day. Stop letting others control how you feel. Start the darn day over. One thing my dad used to do is if the day started out with things going emotionally haywire, he'd just say, "Okay. We're getting worked up and emotional. We're starting over as if we just woke up."
YOU are making this harder than it is.
Call Steve harley today.
I'm an afterthought to my wife.
No, you are not. And to allow yourself to think so will impede your progress.
Get your thoughts under control. They may cross your mind in the beginning, but DON'T DWELL ON THEM.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Hill, stop stewing. Start today over. Seriously. Start it over. Give her a hug, tell her you don't want to fight anymore today and just start over.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
REALLY?
Are you here to get help, or to look for justifications for your poor behavior towards your wife.
YOU are shooting YOURSELF in the foot, YOU are not listening, YOU are making a conscious choice to keep impeding the progress of your marriage.
I suggest you shape up and cut the bull before you stop getting responses.
Well, Hill, I wish you the best then.
Hill, did you ever enumerate the ways in which your need for affection could be met on the ENQ?
Hill, did you ever enumerate the ways in which your need for affection could be met on the ENQ?
Yes apparently not specific enough for my wife so I'm doing a new one specific with actual acts of affection and times of day thanks.
Kilt/Hold,
I'm taking a break, it is best for my wife and I. We tend to do better when I spend time in the workbook and not here. My wife told me she's never seen me this way until I began my journey here and that needs to change. I've received some great advice here from all of you actually so don't see me as a lost cause, I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better. I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back. The best three days my wife had I didn't spend much time on here at all. I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives. Thanks again for everything, maybe I'll check back next week!
Hill
Hill, I don't know if you ever read the story ML shared about how they were working the program practicing by going to the store to POJA groceries. She got a head of lettuce she didn't like and I don't remember for sure but I think he went outside the store because he was angry. They related the story to Dr. H, who told them ML's H needed anger management.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids. I have a 15 year old who makes excuses when folks are hostile to her, because her dad and I raised her steeped in the hostility and strife you and your wife describe. Somehow we thought it was acceptable to live like that, to raise kids in that, instead of being willing to go to any length to find a way to relate to each other peacefully. Sadly it wasn't until she was like 13 that the hostility and strife finally stopped here. I'm trying to play catch up so late, and so far it looks like I'm losing. Her dad and I made the choices, but she pays the consequences. I think it would be awesome if you could get the hostility and strife out of your home while your kids are still little and impressionable and can easily soak up new patterns to replace these faulty ones. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids.
Is hilltopper having angry outbursts? If so, he might need anger management classes. My H was referred to anger management classes for angry outbursts. If it's just hostility and strife, of course they don't need outside intervention because Marriage Builders takes care of that. That is what the program resolves. I have not seen anything that told me that anger management was warranted, did I miss something?
If AM classes are needed, I would check with Markos, since he went to one while under the tutelage of Dr Harley.
The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's.
When you try to tell us what her reasons are and tell us what she is thinking, that's a disrespectful judgment.
Everytime things go wrong, your are reaching for disrespectful judgments.
If I asked you to go through your last ten posts and identify the DJs for us, I'll bet you could find ten, but I'll bet I could find a hundred!!!
The biggest problem evident in your marriage is these DJs. Do you believe it's okay to tolerate some DJs, or do you believe they should not be tolerated at all?
I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better.
I agree sometimes it is not.
I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back.
Good grief, Hilltopper, when the doctor gives you a shot, do you hit him because it hurts?
Some of what you will hear here will be extremely unpleasant, but it will be the most important things in the world to hear if you want a good marriage. You had best learn how to listen to things you don't want to hear and throw out the responses that come so quickly to your mind and take more time mulling over what is being said to you.
I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives.
Hill, you have a SERIOUS Disrespectful Judgment problem, and I doubt you are going to get much traction until you address it. It sounds like you've got a lot of energy to meet her emotional needs, but it sounds like you need some help developing some insight into what DJs you are committing and empathy into how that is making your wife feel.
I predict you'll be starting over, over and over again, until you get these DJs
gone.
I can promise you, my friend, from my own personal experience, that you are massively UNDERESTIMATING the importance of this problem, and OVERESTIMATING the importance of your wife's apparent motivational problem. She is here. I promise you that if she is having motivational problems, we can help her with that, but I can also promise you that we cannot help her if you are not SERIOUSLY, DESPERATELY, INTENSELY motivated to fix this DJ problem. Can we trust that we will see you put all of the effort into that that you are expecting her to put into meeting your need for affection?
Hill, I understand that you are making your wife a detailed list of the affectionate acts you would like to see. I think this can be a great idea.
But I just wanted to offer a suggestion: if you want your wife to be patient with you when you commit a DJ, I'd suggest that you be very patient with her when she misses something on your list.
By the way, I think the reason you do better when you are not here is that when you are gone you are focusing on filling her Love Bank instead of rehearsing your most recent conflicts over and over again by posting about them and rereading them here.
I'm taking a break, it is best for my wife and I. We tend to do better when I spend time in the workbook and not here.
Maybe because when you're here, you are venting and DJing your wife instead of working the program?
Take responsibility for your DJs, Hill. It's not the board's fault that you can't talk good about your wife. It's not your wife's fault, either.
Markos, you're wasting your time for right now. He thinks coming here is making things worse. He posts the drama going on and when we call him out on his baggage, he gets upset at us.
Can't talk now at dinner with my wife, no kids!
.
Hill, I have a high need for affection. But we have 3-5 kids with us everyday. So we may not get a lot of time for affection aside from taking a breather in the kitchen for a minute to give each other a hug and a kiss.
From reading your posts, I've come to the conclusion that you are: impatient, judgemental, lecturing, not pleasant to be around when things are going your way, emotional, and whiney. These things are really immature. Be a man, get control of yourself, and maintain composure.
You keep buying these things for your wife. Do these meet a need of hers?
Your entitled to conclude whatever you about me, in fact it is apparent from your posts that you have made that conclusion clear. What I will tell you is that I'm working incredibly hard at this and "I feel" that my wife is simply not. The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's. It is a conscious choice that is being made, I know what I'm experiencing here each minute, hour, and day. It is real, not some fantasy I've created to argue with all of you and point all the blame at my wife. The snuggling, kisses, and hugs from the last three days were all initiated by me, not her. My wife suggesting that she is meeting my need for affection by kissing me back is just ridiculous.
REALLY?
Are you here to get help, or to look for justifications for your poor behavior towards your wife.
YOU are shooting YOURSELF in the foot, YOU are not listening, YOU are making a conscious choice to keep impeding the progress of your marriage.
I suggest you shape up and cut the bull before you stop getting responses.
Wife and I had an amazing stressful day. We watched our friends 4 year old for the weekend which we committed to two months ago which was probably not a good decision considering the current circumstances. We are gonna be a bit more selective in the future. My wife and I have discussed how I react emotionally to the advice I get here. It is not just here, it is how I deal with everything everywhere and is a problem. I can't even answer why I do so, but I am working on it. I feel like I'm at a crossroads in my life, almost like an out of body experience of sorts right now. It's like, "dude, who the hell are you?"
Hill, I don't know if you ever read the story ML shared about how they were working the program practicing by going to the store to POJA groceries. She got a head of lettuce she didn't like and I don't remember for sure but I think he went outside the store because he was angry. They related the story to Dr. H, who told them ML's H needed anger management.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids. I have a 15 year old who makes excuses when folks are hostile to her, because her dad and I raised her steeped in the hostility and strife you and your wife describe. Somehow we thought it was acceptable to live like that, to raise kids in that, instead of being willing to go to any length to find a way to relate to each other peacefully. Sadly it wasn't until she was like 13 that the hostility and strife finally stopped here. I'm trying to play catch up so late, and so far it looks like I'm losing. Her dad and I made the choices, but she pays the consequences. I think it would be awesome if you could get the hostility and strife out of your home while your kids are still little and impressionable and can easily soak up new patterns to replace these faulty ones. I wish nothing but the best for you and your family.
This is very on point but for different reasons. I don't think the situation Tgrace and I go through is completely understood to be honest. Not in a blaming whiny way, just how things really are. I don't get angry verbally when we talk. But I'm sneaky angry I guess. My face and emotions say it all. Its like a man of many faces or something. I can say something that is perfectly acceptable, but know that the intention in my face and emotions is a stinger. I am doing some self reflection and it should go away and I'm working on it.
I think your family needs outside intervention, too. The hostility and strife is tough especially on the kids.
Is hilltopper having angry outbursts? If so, he might need anger management classes. My H was referred to anger management classes for angry outbursts. If it's just hostility and strife, of course they don't need outside intervention because Marriage Builders takes care of that. That is what the program resolves. I have not seen anything that told me that anger management was warranted, did I miss something?
If AM classes are needed, I would check with Markos, since he went to one while under the tutelage of Dr Harley.
I'm not opposed to any of this. What do you think about the fact that I only get angry or upset or whiny about our relationship? I don't care about heads of lettuce or small [censored], the only thing I care about is that I feel my wife loves me. I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but this is all I want.
The LB's don't help of course but this is not her sole reason for not wanting to meet my EN's.
When you try to tell us what her reasons are and tell us what she is thinking, that's a disrespectful judgment.
Everytime things go wrong, your are reaching for disrespectful judgments.
If I asked you to go through your last ten posts and identify the DJs for us, I'll bet you could find ten, but I'll bet I could find a hundred!!!
The biggest problem evident in your marriage is these DJs. Do you believe it's okay to tolerate some DJs, or do you believe they should not be tolerated at all?
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
My DJ's are OOC. An addiction of sorts I suppose.
I just think the format of a forum for some reason isn't conducive to making me chill out and do better.
I agree sometimes it is not.
I hope to work on that, but for now I get feel insulted, bullied, and want to strike back.
Good grief, Hilltopper, when the doctor gives you a shot, do you hit him because it hurts?
Some of what you will hear here will be extremely unpleasant, but it will be the most important things in the world to hear if you want a good marriage. You had best learn how to listen to things you don't want to hear and throw out the responses that come so quickly to your mind and take more time mulling over what is being said to you.
I intend to try just that again and see if we can minimize the outside suggestions and perspectives.
Hill, you have a SERIOUS Disrespectful Judgment problem, and I doubt you are going to get much traction until you address it. It sounds like you've got a lot of energy to meet her emotional needs, but it sounds like you need some help developing some insight into what DJs you are committing and empathy into how that is making your wife feel.
I predict you'll be starting over, over and over again, until you get these DJs
gone.
I can promise you, my friend, from my own personal experience, that you are massively UNDERESTIMATING the importance of this problem, and OVERESTIMATING the importance of your wife's apparent motivational problem. She is here. I promise you that if she is having motivational problems, we can help her with that, but I can also promise you that we cannot help her if you are not SERIOUSLY, DESPERATELY, INTENSELY motivated to fix this DJ problem. Can we trust that we will see you put all of the effort into that that you are expecting her to put into meeting your need for affection?
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Markos, you're wasting your time for right now. He thinks coming here is making things worse. He posts the drama going on and when we call him out on his baggage, he gets upset at us.
You are justified in feeling this. I never blamed you for anything on these posts of mine. I said for me personally it wasn't good at times to continue.
[
I'm not opposed to any of this. What do you think about the fact that I only get angry or upset or whiny about our relationship? I don't care about heads of lettuce or small xxxx, the only thing I care about is that I feel my wife loves me. I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but this is all I want.
Well, thats the point. If you can't control your anger, then you need anger management. Your anger is entirely your fault, regardless of the reason. And if you can't control it, Dr Harley would tell you look into anger management classes.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I go about it wrong, there is no doubt, but
My suggestion is that you take the word "but" out of your thinking on this.
Admit that you go about it all wrong, and discover that you don't have to go about it this way any more and that there is no longer any excuse for going about it all wrong.
Do you really want a better relationship? Is that really all you want?
Do you really want a better relationship enough to make eliminating these disrespectful judgments a high priority?
Because there is literally no other path to get what you want. There are other paths you can try, but they will not work. You can try really hard to motivate your wife to meet your emotional needs in the face of your love busters, but you will simply burn her out. There is no way she can keep at that forever.
While you have her attention and while she is working so hard to follow the advice given here and to work this program with you, you have a limited window of opportunity. If you do not show her that you can change, that you have changed, and that the change is permanent, do not expect her to continue keeping up this pace.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
Think about it this way, Hill; any time I try to "explain myself" to my wife, I am levying a disrespectful judgement.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so. I love my wife so much guys. I never stopped loving her at any point of this, but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process. I'm gonna do this. I know I might make mistakes, but my wife doesn't deserve this.
Hill, I believe you, and it sounds like you are willing to step up and do what needs to be done. You sound like you are listening.
Then main thing you need here is to be truly motivated to change this.
When things start to go awry in your relationship with tgrace, I suggest that you make this your FIRST step: remind yourself that the number one problem in your relationship has been your disrespectful judgments. Remind yourself that you have created an environment that is making it very difficult for your wife to act positively toward you. And then remind yourself that she is trying very hard to act positively, anyway, and she's not going to be able to be consistent in that until you are consistent in eliminating the disrespectful judgments.
Did you hear that, Hill? She cannot be consistent in meeting your ENs until you are consistent in eliminating DJs. She just cannot do that, no matter how much she wants to.
Your brain and your reason can latch onto this fact and make the plan to get your ENs met by eliminating DJs. But your emotion cannot. So you are going to have to overpower your emotions, repeatedly, with this piece of logical reasoning.
Your emotions are going to point you to certain "tools" to try to get what you need. Almost every one of those "tools" is a DJ and is really a weapon used against your wife. If your passion is in the driver's seat and not your logic, you are going to crash this relationship.
It is going to take awhile. In the meantime, your wife is here, and she is asking questions and listening and following the advice given. You are incredibly lucky, Hill. It is going to take awhile.
You have got to get both ends of this program going. Meet emotional needs and eliminate love busters. Dr. Harley says there should be no tolerance in marriage for selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Not that they should be minimized, they should be eliminated! You can do this, and it starts with adopting a personal attitude of zero tolerance toward these behaviors from yourself.
I just reread Dr Harley's description of DJs. Its not that I never read it, I just want to be very clear on what I'm doing and when I'm doing it.
Think about it this way, Hill; any time I try to "explain myself" to my wife, I am levying a disrespectful judgement.
Its funny how things progress over time and the things that my wife and I once thought were the most crucial for recovery in our marriage were really not nearly as important as we thought! Truth is a disrespectfully judge everyone all damn day. I do it to my business partner and all of our staff, friends and I must be quite frustrating to be around!
I'm coming around.....
Its funny how things progress over time and the things that my wife and I once thought were the most crucial for recovery in our marriage were really not nearly as important as we thought! Truth is a disrespectfully judge everyone all damn day. I do it to my business partner and all of our staff, friends and I must be quite frustrating to be around!
I'm coming around.....
Right?
It may not be as important to avoid Disrespectful Judgements with people other than your spouse, but it's much easier to do so with your spouse if you just don't do it at all.
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so.
Do you see the irony here?
but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process
You can feel emotion, and do the right thing anyway. You can be nervous and still deliver a speech or get a shot at the doctor. Emotions are not forcing your mouth to move and air to come through your vocal cords. You probably respond more favorably in front of strangers even when you are experiencing negative emotions than you do in front of your wife, right? It means you are capable of doing it, and can do it front of her, too.
You may consider getting a book about controlling emotions called, "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life." It is based on the same underlying principles that Dr. H's stuff is based on, but it isn't about marriage, it is about not being paralyzed by emotion.
I have a problem of not just accepting what people do. I always want to know why and what for. Its like, "you kissed me, but why?" type of stuff. I always want to know why. I do the same thing with my partner at work. If he has an issue why I did something I want to know why he has an issue.
I hear you loud and clear. I can't explain the "why" I do this, I just know that I do it. I'm compelled to do it, it is wrong, but I continue to do so.
Do you see the irony here?
but my actions and inability to control my emotions are hurting the healing process
You can feel emotion, and do the right thing anyway. You can be nervous and still deliver a speech or get a shot at the doctor. Emotions are not forcing your mouth to move and air to come through your vocal cords. You probably respond more favorably in front of strangers even when you are experiencing negative emotions than you do in front of your wife, right? It means you are capable of doing it, and can do it front of her, too.
You may consider getting a book about controlling emotions called, "Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life." It is based on the same underlying principles that Dr. H's stuff is based on, but it isn't about marriage, it is about not being paralyzed by emotion.
Good way to put it! My poor wife dealing with me and my emotions, what a drag for her. Its not just emotions however it is obsessing about the intentions of everybody's actions rather than just taking someone's action or inaction for what it is. If my wife is grumpy because the kids and baby were pills all day, then she's just grumpy, no need to read into and and wonder if she's mad at me. Baby was screaming this morning, we think she is teething, so I'm gonna make every effort to create a killer environment when I get home for her.
Hill,
I will admit that I was a constant DJer and have been working on it for some time now, which is why I felt compelled to respond.
In my experience, I DJ more when I am feeling insecure, undervalued, and like I am not being cared for. I was famous for saying things like, "You don't love me, do you?" when what I really mean was, "I'd like some affection, conversation, and UA time, please." When I learned how to ask for it in a respectful way, I got more of it, and it was of higher quality.
A DJ is a short term fix with long term negative consequences. In the short term, it might force our spouse to say something that we want to hear (e.g., "You're ridiculous, of course I love you" or in your case, "Of course I am not mad at you, I love you") but it also depletes their love bank. In addition, it doesn't help us much, because we don't value things they do and say as a result of a DJ (or SD) as much as we do if they just said it or did it on their own.
Since your wife is on board with MB and working on things, I think you are going to feel more and more cared for and these negative feelings and worries will start to go away. But, this doesn't place the blame on your wife. It is harder for her to show you care and to meet your needs when you are DJing. It is your responsibility to create conditions that make her want to show you care. You mentioned doing that above, so I think you get that, which is super.
Stop looking for short term gains (that have a long term negative effect) and consider this a long game. Less DJs now will result in less depletion of her love bank and more care from her overall. This care is going to help you feel more secure and will result in less negative thoughts and feelings on your part in the future. When you are feeling like saying a DJ, ask yourself, is this potential short term gain worth eroding her love and our marriage? Then ask yourself, what is it I really want right now?
Fix this now to protect how you will both feel in the future.
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in. The truth is from the moment someone suggested that I "get snooping" on my wife my security in this relationship went from 100% to 0% within the blink of an eye. Its not the forums fault or any particular persons, but I have interpreted that information and used it to create images in my head, and read into things that probably aren't even there. It just all added up, no more sex, not much of an interest in me, not replying to my emails about marriage, not replying to texts, stats on 50% of all marriages having A's, comments to me about how I might really have something to worry about in the A department. I honestly feel that my priority in her life comes between her plants and shopping on the internet. I don't even think affection is my top EN to be honest, I don't know what is. For now I seek things that make me feel better about the possibility of an A, and my wife and I agreed that if I can't get past these images and thoughts in my head we're not gonna progress anywhere. I was honest with my wife last night and she let down the thunder and was so hurtful this time. No need to get into all the details again, but lets just say she finished off the middle of the night conversation with a "You're ruining our lives, our marriage, and our kids." She called me psycho 20 times, disgusting another 10 times, among other things. She asked me if I was on drugs(no 100% no way on that.) She asked me questions, then we I began to answer them, she cut me off and yelled over me. I know what my wife is feeling to a degree and I don't blame her for being so frustrated with me. Maybe Steve H can walk me through some of this so that I can gain some confidence back in this marriage and react accordingly. I have not been able to control my feelings for anything longer than a day or two and so we always end up here. I think the soonest appt was tomorrow morning so we are aiming for this. My wife keeps talking about an "intervention" from my Dad? She says she can't go through this and that she wants to tell someone that we both know to maybe talk some sense into me? Not really sure, she said she is gonna do what she wants to do on this subject whether or not I agree. I'm focusing on remaining calm.
Good luck with the phone consultation. However, if you can't control yourself, phone counciling isn't going to help you control your insecurities.
I don't agree with the telling a parent. Nothing was a bigger LB to me than when my wife used to tell me "I'm calling your mother". Geez. What am I, 3?
Call the Harleys and skip the going to mommy and daddy.
We are scheduling with Steve Harley today,
This is fantastic, Hill. I think it would be a great move to tell your wife that you will continue to see Steve as long as she feels like she needs you to.
It just all added up, no more sex, not much of an interest in me, not replying to my emails about marriage, not replying to texts, stats on 50% of all marriages having A's, comments to me about how I might really have something to worry about in the A department.
No, that doesn't add up to the total that you think it does.
It does not add up this way.
Prisca and I see a woman who is sincerely trying to meet your emotional needs and yet still keeps getting blown over every time you feel emotional. You felt emotional last night, so you woke her up. You needed reassurance, and you were willing to get it at her expense. Ouch.
I honestly feel that my priority in her life comes between her plants and shopping on the internet.
Instead of browbeating your wife for not having strong feelings for you, change the way that you are treating her, and then she will have strong feelings for you and you'll never doubt that you are first in her life.
For now I seek things that make me feel better about the possibility of an A, and my wife and I agreed that if I can't get past these images and thoughts in my head we're not gonna progress anywhere.
Start with trying to change what you do instead of changing what you think. Instead of trying to not worry about an affair, try to quit reacting to your emotions without thinking and asking for advice and forming a plan. I guarantee you did not have a plan when you woke grace up last night. You just felt something and reacted to it and set off a bomb in your relationship. Slow down. Calm down.
The following is not logical reasoning:
"Right now I am feeling insecure about our relationship and worried my wife is having an affair. Therefore I must wake her up now and we must talk about how important this is."
That's pure emotion right there. It's absolutely irrational, and it's also very selfish.
Mamas of littles need sleep. Badly.
Good luck with the phone consultation. However, if you can't control yourself, phone counciling isn't going to help you control your insecurities.
I disagree. If anyone can help Hill with being insecure and controlling himself, it's Steve Harley.
Feelings follow actions. Instead of trying to control insecurities, I recommend trying to control what you do in response to insecure feelings.
Feelings follow actions. Instead of trying to control insecurities, I recommend trying to control what you do in response to insecure feelings.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this? I am watching baby while my wife went with the boy to a school function, then on my way to the office. I got a total of one hour of sleep last night so I'm having a hard time doing much of anything right now.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this?
I think you talking to Steve on your own would be great. Be honest with him about your issues. Be brutally honest. Reveal to him your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. I suggest you talk to him about the love busters YOU have done and only then talk to him about your wife.
That said, if your wife can talk with Steve, too, that would be very helpful.
Prisca and I got to meet Steve in person last year at the very last Marriage Builders weekend. He is the most respectful man I have ever known, and after a year of trying to figure out what disrespectful judgments are, I know that that is a real accomplishment! Dr. Harley has said of his son Steve that he is "respectful, almost to a fault," and it shows.
Steve is also a great motivator, and a great explainer of this program.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this?
I think you talking to Steve on your own would be great. Be honest with him about your issues. Be brutally honest. Reveal to him your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. I suggest you talk to him about the love busters YOU have done and only then talk to him about your wife.
That said, if your wife can talk with Steve, too, that would be very helpful.
Prisca and I got to meet Steve in person last year at the very last Marriage Builders weekend. He is the most respectful man I have ever known, and after a year of trying to figure out what disrespectful judgments are, I know that that is a real accomplishment! Dr. Harley has said of his son Steve that he is "respectful, almost to a fault," and it shows.
Steve is also a great motivator, and a great explainer of this program.
Sounds like a guy that I can learn a lot from, thanks.
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Probably more than just time, Hill. Remember that you started down this road so, even though she may not have stayed on the moral high road herself, she's still reeling from the hurt of what you've done. She will want to see that you take that seriously.
An apology alone doesn't make things feel better for many people. An apology plus time doesn't do it, either.
Don't hesitate to reiterate to your wife that you feel that what you did last night was wrong. Wrong for waking her up, wrong for demanding that she talk to you when she wasn't enthusiastic, wrong for being judgmental toward her.
If you don't sound like you believe this was wrong and believe that this was the first step that started the fight, she will have trouble believing that you are ever going to get better. And her enthusiasm will wane.
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Exactly ... just validate her feelings and give her time to gather her self and recompose. Do NOt engage in any unpleasant conversation .. and do not instigate any unpleasant conversation. Keep things REAL simple and give her some time and space to calm down. Your outburst last night/this morning was a HUGE love bank withdrawl and will take a while to recover from. She will be hesitant to talk in fear of your emotional outburst.
I understand both sides to your scenerio. MY wife and I had a similar stand off. WHen I was at my wits end, we had began a slippery slope of emotional outbursts just before my wife dived in MB with me. My wife had told me she didnt love me anymore ... and wanted me to die and go away. She told me this many times over the course of a few weeks. Well .. that fueled my insecurity to the point where i was going to fulfill that request and kill myself.
During a VERY heated and emotional outburst and after about an hour of fighting I had descided it was time ... I got my rifle out of my gun cabinet ... and told my wife I was going to fulfill her request and kill my self. I reached for my bullets in the box on top of my cabinet in a rage of tears ( i couldnt even see properly my eyes were so red and swollen from crying and fighting and yelling ... i couldnt find the bullet and god slapped me and told me .. basicly WTF are you doing? I had promised I would never hurt my family and here Iwas .. about to hurt myself which WOULD hurt my family. I dropped my gun on the floor ... and went outside. My wife called my dad .. an he came the next day and took my guns from me. Told ME He wouldnt give them back until i was emotionally stable. THATS when I descided i needed counselling and my wife agreed and she came with me.
6 months later I got my guns back but that was after the MC and after we had read the HNHN book and some of the other book I had bought that my wife scoffed at many times when i was previously trying to convince her to join me with MB. When she finally did .. it all came to light. IT wasnt overnight tho that we "fixed" our relationship but it sure had a HUGE impact right away.
So .. I know the pain you are in ... I know the feeling of insecurity and uncertanty. I know the turmoil. I know the "craziness" your feeling.
Just breath ... and slow down. Dont think about tomorrow ... just work on today to be the best SELF you can be. Nothing is worth the stress that your causing to yourself by over reading into things. your wife is NOT .. I repeat NOT in an affair .. she is hurt from your emotional outbursts stemmed from your insecurity. Once you start doing things for YOU and being the man that you are and being more respectful to yourself and those around you ... your wife will respond alot better. Right now she needs to see you be a bit more stable on your own before she will be able to feel safe and secure to meet your needs.
MNG
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
I'm a little weird here, Hill.
I don't like to apologize.
Now, don't get me wrong, I do apologize, and do it often. However, so do wife beaters.
The solution? Don't do or say things that you have to apologize for.
Don't engage in Love Busting behavior.
When you do apologize, do it sincerely, and do not try to justify your offense. Then, do not repeat the statement or action which you had to apologize for.
Think before you speak or act; is this important enough to my well being that I will stand behind it and not retract? Or is this simply a reactive gesture? Can I change this without making a statement or action which will be unpleasant to my spouse?
Wife sent me a text that said she didn't desire to speak with me today but that it wasn't silent treatment. I replied that I'm sorry she feels that way, guess that's all u can do. Already apologized for waking her up last night, guess she needs more time.
Exactly ... just validate her feelings and give her time to gather her self and recompose. Do NOt engage in any unpleasant conversation .. and do not instigate any unpleasant conversation. Keep things REAL simple and give her some time and space to calm down. Your outburst last night/this morning was a HUGE love bank withdrawl and will take a while to recover from. She will be hesitant to talk in fear of your emotional outburst.
I understand both sides to your scenerio. MY wife and I had a similar stand off. WHen I was at my wits end, we had began a slippery slope of emotional outbursts just before my wife dived in MB with me. My wife had told me she didnt love me anymore ... and wanted me to die and go away. She told me this many times over the course of a few weeks. Well .. that fueled my insecurity to the point where i was going to fulfill that request and kill myself.
During a VERY heated and emotional outburst and after about an hour of fighting I had descided it was time ... I got my rifle out of my gun cabinet ... and told my wife I was going to fulfill her request and kill my self. I reached for my bullets in the box on top of my cabinet in a rage of tears ( i couldnt even see properly my eyes were so red and swollen from crying and fighting and yelling ... i couldnt find the bullet and god slapped me and told me .. basicly WTF are you doing? I had promised I would never hurt my family and here Iwas .. about to hurt myself which WOULD hurt my family. I dropped my gun on the floor ... and went outside. My wife called my dad .. an he came the next day and took my guns from me. Told ME He wouldnt give them back until i was emotionally stable. THATS when I descided i needed counselling and my wife agreed and she came with me.
6 months later I got my guns back but that was after the MC and after we had read the HNHN book and some of the other book I had bought that my wife scoffed at many times when i was previously trying to convince her to join me with MB. When she finally did .. it all came to light. IT wasnt overnight tho that we "fixed" our relationship but it sure had a HUGE impact right away.
So .. I know the pain you are in ... I know the feeling of insecurity and uncertanty. I know the turmoil. I know the "craziness" your feeling.
Just breath ... and slow down. Dont think about tomorrow ... just work on today to be the best SELF you can be. Nothing is worth the stress that your causing to yourself by over reading into things. your wife is NOT .. I repeat NOT in an affair .. she is hurt from your emotional outbursts stemmed from your insecurity. Once you start doing things for YOU and being the man that you are and being more respectful to yourself and those around you ... your wife will respond alot better. Right now she needs to see you be a bit more stable on your own before she will be able to feel safe and secure to meet your needs.
MNG
OMG! I'm soooo sorry it came to that point and I'm soooo glad you are here now. Stability would be key for me. I don't like being insecure, it totally sucks and I don't intend on remaining insecure forever.
So I put kids down, baby was screaming, I fell asleep upstairs while wife was waiting for me to talk. She is hurt again she said that if I did that to her I'd be pissed. I suppose she is right. I slept two hours total last night and it caught up to me. I went up to make amends but she would have none of it. She said she got two hours of sleep too and that I'm not a priority to her. Not true, just fell asleep due to extreme exhaustion. So be it.
So I put kids down, baby was screaming, I fell asleep upstairs while wife was waiting for me to talk. She is hurt again she said that if I did that to her I'd be pissed. I suppose she is right. I slept two hours total last night and it caught up to me. I went up to make amends but she would have none of it. She said she got two hours of sleep too and that I'm not a priority to her. Not true, just fell asleep due to extreme exhaustion. So be it.
You two shouldn't be talking when you are both exhausted. It's very hard to contain emotions when you have no energy.
However, if this was the case, the discussion should have been rescheduled through PoJA so you could both get some sleep.
Gosh this sucks. I went upstairs to apologize for falling asleep and she wasn't interested in it. She was pouty and pissed. Bad timing to fall asleep but I didn't mean too. I literally fell asleep at 430 am last night.
You guys are going to have to stop with the DJs. This is turning into a very bad edition of he says/she says.
You both should try to get a good night sleep, and bring this up the next day at an agreed upon time. And you should drop this accusation of infidelity thing. Either prove it by hiring a PI or wiretapping her or checking her computer or drop it entirely. You will have much more success if you meet her needs and she meets yours.
[start mini-rant]
This comment is to the world in general, if your wife is sleep-deprived or not a morning person, do NOT wake her up in the middle of the night looking for something that requires energy or thought (just because you are up at the time).
[end of rant]
I have just read through both Hilltoppers and his wife's threads...and I gotta say Hilltopper, you have to be more patient and you need to direct your Love Bank deposits in the right way!!!
1) You keep trying to make deposits in to her love bank. I keep seeing "i bought her a card" "I bought her this" "I brought her that"...is "Gifts" one of her love languages? I think it might be yours, but is it hers? Then you get annoyed that one gift doesn't fill up her love bank immediately or she doesn't know you gave her something. On her threads I keep reading that she would like "romantic gestures" which is more like "plan a date" or "arrange for babysitting".
Take home message: FIND OUT WHAT AFFECTION MEANS TO HER. ASK HER WHAT ACTIONS MAKE HER LOVED. YOU ARE DOING THE WRONG ONES.
2) When you make a deposit, if her love bank is in the red, then one gesture/nice thing/EN is not going to propel anyone into that "in love" feeling. Imagine a Leaky Bucket. Her bucket is empty. You put one scoop of water in there. Then you wonder why it isn't full. Then you get mad at her for not acting like it isn't full, which then causes that scoop of water to drain away quickly. Then you are back to where you started from. You need consistent scoops of water (meeting ENs) without removing any (LBs) before you will fill it up.
Take home message: STOP LOVE BUSTING.
3) Your wife seems open to the whole MB thing. That is a very good thing. Is she perfect? no. But stop worrying about her, and worry about you doing MB as best as you can.
Take home message: OWN YOUR OWN PROBLEMS. BE PATIENT!!!
4) I see you (and other men) saying that you don't like having to initiate SF. I see women that don't like having to initiate Domestic Support or Family Commitment. Guess what? For the person who it is most important, they have often have to initiate the need, whether it be SF or something else. And when she does meet your top need, don't whine about how it wasn't every night or the way you like it or worse. That won't make her want to do it again. Just like if she wanted you to mop the floor and all she did was whine how you didn't do it right...would you want to do it again?
Take home message: MAKE SURE YOU MAKE YOUR TOP NEED (SF) EASY AND PLEASANT FOR HER TO MEET
5) Your wife is often tired because of the baby. One time you were watching the baby and you were tired. But somehow that didn't equate to that is the way she feels every night. BABIES ARE TIRING!
Today is a new day. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean -- don't dwell on the mistakes of yesterday! -- and show your wife that you will care for her.
The Second Enemy of Good Conversation is dwelling on mistakes, past or present.
One of our important emotional needs is admiration. So whenever you remind your wife of achievements of her past or present, you deposit love units because she needs to be admired.
But when you remind her of her failures, you do the opposite. You undermine her confidence and self-esteem, and withdraw love units.
Criticism is painful in marriage because we need admiration so much. We want our spouses to be the most encouraging person we know, one who constantly reminds us of our strengths. We certainly don't want to be discouraged by being reminded of our weaknesses, particularly if it comes from our spouse.
In an intimate relationship we give the keys to our inner self to someone else so that person can be in a position to meet our emotional needs. Intimacy magnifies the pleasure we receive when our needs are met. But it also makes us vulnerable. The pain of criticism is magnified in an intimate relationship. Unprotected, we expose the china closet of our feelings. If the person is critical of us, they are like the proverbial "bull in a china closet." One romp through our inner self and we are not so quick to invite the bull back again.
Criticism now and then is bad enough, but spouses often get into the habit of dwelling on mistakes. These mistakes are mentioned repeatedly in an effort to make sure that the mistake is understood and corrected. But that's not how mistakes are understood or corrected. All this does is magnify the pain until conversation is too unpleasant to continue. Then hope of respectful negotiation is lost.
In your letter, you say that you and your spouse say the same things again and again. You may be referring to this enemy, dwelling on past mistakes. You may find yourselves repeating these criticisms because this enemy dominates your conversation. If that's the case, see it for the enemy it is. As long as you tolerate dwelling on mistakes, you cannot expect to meet each other's needs for conversation. You may withdraw so many love units that it ruins your love for each other.
Read the entire article
here.
Today is a new day. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean -- don't dwell on the mistakes of yesterday! -- and show your wife that you will care for her.
The Second Enemy of Good Conversation is dwelling on mistakes, past or present.
One of our important emotional needs is admiration. So whenever you remind your wife of achievements of her past or present, you deposit love units because she needs to be admired.
But when you remind her of her failures, you do the opposite. You undermine her confidence and self-esteem, and withdraw love units.
Criticism is painful in marriage because we need admiration so much. We want our spouses to be the most encouraging person we know, one who constantly reminds us of our strengths. We certainly don't want to be discouraged by being reminded of our weaknesses, particularly if it comes from our spouse.
In an intimate relationship we give the keys to our inner self to someone else so that person can be in a position to meet our emotional needs. Intimacy magnifies the pleasure we receive when our needs are met. But it also makes us vulnerable. The pain of criticism is magnified in an intimate relationship. Unprotected, we expose the china closet of our feelings. If the person is critical of us, they are like the proverbial "bull in a china closet." One romp through our inner self and we are not so quick to invite the bull back again.
Criticism now and then is bad enough, but spouses often get into the habit of dwelling on mistakes. These mistakes are mentioned repeatedly in an effort to make sure that the mistake is understood and corrected. But that's not how mistakes are understood or corrected. All this does is magnify the pain until conversation is too unpleasant to continue. Then hope of respectful negotiation is lost.
In your letter, you say that you and your spouse say the same things again and again. You may be referring to this enemy, dwelling on past mistakes. You may find yourselves repeating these criticisms because this enemy dominates your conversation. If that's the case, see it for the enemy it is. As long as you tolerate dwelling on mistakes, you cannot expect to meet each other's needs for conversation. You may withdraw so many love units that it ruins your love for each other.
Read the entire article
here.Fantastic read on this. Yes wife and I are treating this as a new day and have both agreed to identify and avoid all DJ's for the entire day. No expectations on anything else for now, just avoid the insults and see where it takes us. We both agreed that when you change your language and how we treat each other that it can sound a bit corny and odd, but that it will get easier over time. I could see the confidence of both of us go up a couple of notches as we agreed to focus on just this one task today.
Keep at it, Hilltopper and Grace! Dr. Harley's word for that corniness and oddness is "awkward."
Doing things that are not habits for you are going to feel awkward. Your tendency will be to go back to old habits. But you need to practice new behaviors frequently in order for them to become new habits.
That was a great post, Prisca!!
Hill, concentrating on one thing today is an excellent plan!!
That was a great post, Prisca!!
Hill, concentrating on one thing today is an excellent plan!!
Yep, keep it simple stupid is gonna make a difference in our lives. We're gonna follow this one simple plan for today and worry about tomorrow tomorrow. We also need to revise our EN's, they are not accurate. More on that later.
I'd also like to publicly and openly apologize to my wife for neglecting her EN's all these years. I told her all of this this morning but I feel good about being honest here as well. I was selfish, didn't care about anything that was important to her, and repeatedly DJ'd and SD'd her over and over again. I don't blame her for not being into me and I am working on changing the man I've become. I'm not that man yet, but I know what he looks like and I like what I see. This man is thoughtful, respectful, and thinks of others before himself. He never attempts to gain at other's expense. He smiles, in fact smiles a lot.
He takes time out of his day to stop and smell the roses. He does things that make his wife happy without having to be asked. He takes initiative in planning fun activities with his wife, children, and friends. He researches and spends time on romancing his wife rather than picking up flowers as an afterthought at the grocery store. This guy is a stud, a true casanova and you all should be jealous of my wife for being able to own this dude when he becomes what he is aspiring and working on to be.
He never attempts to gain at other's expense.
Both you and your wife are going to like this man a lot more!
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem.
Both of you lost a lot of sleep this week, so that likely to happen.
Put 8 hours of sleep on your schedule for both of you every night. It won't happen if you don't plan it.
Likewise, schedule your UA time. Plan specific activities that you are both EXCITED about.
And look for babysitters.
Did you guys every look into the YMCA or a gym where you could get babysitting?
Gyms can be great IF you are giving each other your undivided attention while you exercise. (Not so great if you are on opposite sides of the room doing different things!) When you exercise you are releasing all kinds of chemicals that make you feel good, so if you are feeling like this with your spouse, you guys are making Love Bank deposits in your accounts.
Also, at the same time, typically this helps one or both spouses along the way to meeting the need for an Attractive Spouse better.
So, you get RC, Conversation, AS all at once. You can also meet Admiration.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
Dr. Harley has said that one of the most important things you can do in your marriage is get adequate sleep. Make that a priority - schedule it.
It makes good sense. It's hard to function at 100% when you're sleep deprived. You do need more than 10 hours a week. 25 would be a great number to hit. But it's going to be hard to hit that if you're both taking turns crashing early at night.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
1. Sit down and schedule out the time, writing out dates and times. Make it a habit of putting everything else second to your UA time. Lose the attitude that you might do it if you have time: MAKE TIME by making it your biggest priority. IT IS. If something gets put aside, make it something ELSE other than your UA time.
2. hire babysitters
3. Like Markos suggested, schedule your UA time for times that you are not exhausted. Schedule it for your best times, like maybe 5 pm during the week and 1pm during the weekend along with Saturday night
On another note, Hilltopper, be sure to be reviewing regularly exactly what the Basic Concepts say. You will notice things you might not have noticed before. They are important. Pay special attention to the Policy of Joint Agreement:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.htmlNever do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse
If you make an agreement but sense that your wife is reluctant, don't make her go through with it. If she becomes reluctant later, renegotiate.
The Policy of Joint Agreement is your tool for measuring whether or not you are being thoughtful toward your wife. If you are following it, you are being thoughtful; if you are not following it, you are being thoughtless. I noticed above you said you were planning on becoming a thoughtful husband, so I wanted to point this out.
Also, have you gotten a chance to listen to Marriage Builders Radio, yet? How long is your commute? I have 70 minutes every day and usually most of that time is spent listening to Dr. Harley and Joyce, which really helps. You'll learn how to apply the Basic Concepts in more and more specific situations so that when your own situations come up it will start to be second nature how to use the concepts in your marriage.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem.
Both of you lost a lot of sleep this week, so that likely to happen.
Put 8 hours of sleep on your schedule for both of you every night. It won't happen if you don't plan it.
Likewise, schedule your UA time. Plan specific activities that you are both EXCITED about.
And look for babysitters.
I've seen a consistent theme in much of the advice here which is "planning." I'd say up to this point I for one have not been diligent in planning UA time. I've tried a few times specifically about working out together as well as a sheet that shows date spots and acceptable babysitters nearby. I feel a bit brushed off about it so to be honest I got discouraged and stopped asking. Yesterday I sent my wife a text that said, "scrabble and wine tonight?" She said, "sure." It just didn't materialize because she was tired, understandably so. I didn't pout or read into it, I simply grabbed a pillow for her, put her head on it and rubbed her back. It felt good to do so.
Did you guys every look into the YMCA or a gym where you could get babysitting?
Gyms can be great IF you are giving each other your undivided attention while you exercise. (Not so great if you are on opposite sides of the room doing different things!) When you exercise you are releasing all kinds of chemicals that make you feel good, so if you are feeling like this with your spouse, you guys are making Love Bank deposits in your accounts.
Also, at the same time, typically this helps one or both spouses along the way to meeting the need for an Attractive Spouse better.
So, you get RC, Conversation, AS all at once. You can also meet Admiration.
Believe me this was my latest and greatest idea that I got excited about. She kind of expressed that this would be uncomfortable to her and I get that, particularly because of me being the lecturing type. I'd love for her to give me and this form of UA a chance. It accomplishes so many thing as you mentioned.
Okay, if your wife is not interested in the gym, then drop it unless you can think of a way to modify your proposal that would make her thrilled about it. Keep brainstorming. Write down ideas when they occur to you, wherever you are, and share them with your wife.
Wife fell asleep tonight early like I fell asleep last night so UA a problem. We need help with kids big time. Good day just no UA and everything I read says we need 25 hours a week. We are more like 10 at most. Can u get your best ten tops.
1. Sit down and schedule out the time, writing out dates and times. Make it a habit of putting everything else second to your UA time. Lose the attitude that you might do it if you have time: MAKE TIME by making it your biggest priority. IT IS. If something gets put aside, make it something ELSE other than your UA time.
2. hire babysitters
3. Like Markos suggested, schedule your UA time for times that you are not exhausted. Schedule it for your best times, like maybe 5 pm during the week and 1pm during the weekend along with Saturday night
Melody,
This really struck a cord with me. I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc. Clearly my wife and I historically have chosen not to make our marriage a priority and changing that behavior means we both have to move outside of our comfort zones and just "go for it." I don't have a good feel yet for asking for things that are my EN's. I get the courage to do so and if I get shot down I tend to take it as a sign not to ask again. What I want to work on is regrouping, changing some terms or details of the request, and then try again.
Go with Dr. Harley's worksheets.
They are designed to help you communicate your needs to each other without getting into a fight.
Your wife's enthusiasm for meeting your needs will climb higher and higher the longer you follow this program.
I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc.
Tread very lightly here. Live up to your own standards and priorities, but be very careful not to judge your wife on the subject.
If something is not a priority to your wife, don't judge her for not holding that priority.
You will be a priority to your wife when your account in her love bank is receiving MASSIVE deposits every single day and there are no love busters causing withdrawals.
If you were to discover that you were not a priority to your wife, the absolute worst thing you could do would be to fault her for that. This would cause withdrawals from your account in her love bank and would make it even less likely that she would make you a priority. Instead you need to follow a rational plan to change your standing in your wife's estimation.
Yes, planning, organization, and being rational and logical are emphasized here. Personally, in addition to being a recovering chronic jerk, I am an emotional, disorganized wreck. I'm working on recovering from the disorganization as well.
If your wife had a readout on her forehead that showed the balance in your account in her love bank, and you woke up one morning and discovered your balance was in the red, would you be offended?
I hope not. Instead it would be important to be thrilled that you had such accurate information so you could make deposits and change the situation!
If you feel like you are not a priority to your wife, don't try to force her to change her mind on the subject. Instead, face up to the reality, that you haven't lived up to the man you wanted to be, and become that man so that you will be a priority in her life.
Go with Dr. Harley's worksheets.
They are designed to help you communicate your needs to each other without getting into a fight.
Your wife's enthusiasm for meeting your needs will climb higher and higher the longer you follow this program.
Just filled out and sent her my RC worksheet. It was a great exercise and there were many 3's in there which I know will also be for her.
I notice you haven't answered my question about the radio show, yet.
I've always felt that if something is a priority, then you'll make time to make it happen. It could be losing weight, going to the gym, spending time with kids, spending time with spouse, etc.
Tread very lightly here. Live up to your own standards and priorities, but be very careful not to judge your wife on the subject.
If something is not a priority to your wife, don't judge her for not holding that priority.
You will be a priority to your wife when your account in her love bank is receiving MASSIVE deposits every single day and there are no love busters causing withdrawals.
If you were to discover that you were not a priority to your wife, the absolute worst thing you could do would be to fault her for that. This would cause withdrawals from your account in her love bank and would make it even less likely that she would make you a priority. Instead you need to follow a rational plan to change your standing in your wife's estimation.
Yes, planning, organization, and being rational and logical are emphasized here. Personally, in addition to being a recovering chronic jerk, I am an emotional, disorganized wreck. I'm working on recovering from the disorganization as well.
You're right that was a sneaky judgmental jab on my part. STOP IT Hilltopper!
I notice you haven't answered my question about the radio show, yet.
I keep intending to and simply forgot. I tried on my Iphone, but it wouldn't work. How do you listen to it? I have about an hour in the car each day as well.
You are in luck, there is an iPhone/iPad app free in the iTunes store. Unfortunately I know nearly nothing about the iPhone so I can't help much with it, but I will go hunt down a link for you.
Also, the show comes out as MP3s. You can play them in any MP3 software; I'm certain the iPhone has that built in.
The daily show can be streamed on any computer from 12-1 Central time.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.htmlThey also repeat the show for 24 hours until the next show.
Also there are loads of shows out there for free download. They are all just as good and current even if they are from last year.
http://richwith.com/mb/radio/shows/http://richwith.com/mb/xoldPreviousPrograms/This site also syndicates the program and allows downloading, I think:
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/marriage-builders-radio/
Bingo, found the app, downloading now, will listen to today's show on the commute home. How exciting!
Great! I think you'll like it!
Great! I think you'll like it!
I listened to the radio show, Dr Harley and his wife are amazing people and very down to earth. I like the format of the radio show because not only are the callers experiencing some form of marital strife or conflict in the present, but the Harley's provide immediate feedback. The show yesterday from Nicole was a great learning experience. I learned that men think differently than women and want a true partnership in marriage. Last night my wife went to give the kids a bath so instead of staying downstairs after completing the dishes, I went straight upstairs to be her partner in crime and take care of the beasts. I also helped fold and put away some of the laundry and all in all it was quite enjoyable. My wife and I tend to do a lot of, "if you do this, then I'll do the other" type stuff. I'm not certain, but I can see where this may not be beneficial to our marriage. I told her that I thought it would be great if we tackle our daily responsibilities together sometimes to not only converse, but also because it takes pressure off the other person to complete the task.
This weekend is the race up the coast. We are excited about it, big time. We made a list of things to pack, I'm heading out to get what we need, prepare the car, etc. I want her to be relaxed when we leave, not overwhelmed, so my decisions I make over the next few hours will definitely keep that in mind.
I listened to the radio show, Dr Harley and his wife are amazing people and very down to earth.
They really are! I learn a lot just from listening to the way they talk to each other on the air. Notice how even though Dr. Harley has all the degrees and the decades of experience as a clinical psychologist, he is always completely respectful of Joyce?
Incidentally, Dr. Harley and Joyce say they experience conflict in their marriage at a rate of about one conflict per hour. It's just that they always resolve it in a way both are enthusiastic about without any demands, disrespect, or anger! Isn't that incredible? I figure that means they are doing it live on the show at least once per show.
I was alerted yesterday to the fact that you can now listen free online to the entire radio archive since 2006:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/The little "listen" links that they have on there are new. It used to be download only, for a fee.
Just acted like a jerk. It wasn't really something my wife did that set me off, it is what she doesn't do. My taker wants his needs met, gets frustrated when they are not met and picks a fight rather than asking my wife to meet them. My big realization today is that I'm a little *** edit ***. I do everything she asks of me. I ask for nothing in return and go figure I get no ENs met. It's a huge ego blow to be a little *** edit *** not to mention probably very unattractive to my wife. I wouldn't respect me if I was her. My instincts are telling me to not do anything she asks, yeah that'll teach her a lesson. You keep telling me to be patient and that my wife will begin to meet my needs if I behave a certain way. I don't have faith that this will happen. It's like I obsess over making her happy but I'm not on her radar. My wife tells me she doesn't know what I want and that my expectations are too high. Too high? Geez touch my leg now and again, comfort me, show me I am important, make me feel loved. Don't look at me like I'm insane for asking to do something nice for me. You made me coffee today and therefore you've met your requirements? And then there is the inevitable "well if you just waited I was gonna do something nice" game. I have a hunch I'll be waiting for the rest if my life at this pace. I need to reset right now, went for a walk to cool off but didn't feel better, had a beer still not feeling any better.
Dude! Get hold of yourself!
That was me for awhile earlier this year. Go for another walk. That one wasn't long enough. Make it long enough so that all that's left in your head is nothing.
My taker was like that too. I'm giving, giving, giving and all I wanted was just a touch. Learn to control yourself. It will take time to learn the MB habits. Even now I still have a slip up. It's a constant struggle sometimes.
Keep trying Hilltopper!! You're better than this!!
you might think you're doing great things for her - but to me.. It really seems like you're tallying a giant bill all the time. Like... I do this thing (that I think is great) for you .. Now you owe me.. When are you going to pay? How would you like it it you went into a store and they said.. - we smiled at you when you came in .. That's a buck. We followed you around so we could help you if you needed it.. - that's 10 bucks. we carried the clothes you wanted to try on to the dressing room -that's 10 bucks.. And so on. I'd first be saying - get the heck away from me.. I didn't ask for that that stuff and it isn't worth the price. And eventually I'd be pissed off and avoid the place altogether.
Your descriptions of yourself remind me of that. Nothing good ever comes without expectations - which would sure drain my love bucket.
Just acted like a jerk. It wasn't really something my wife did that set me off, it is what she doesn't do. My taker wants his needs met, gets frustrated when they are not met and picks a fight rather than asking my wife to meet them. My big realization today is that I'm a little *** edit ***. I do everything she asks of me. I ask for nothing in return and go figure I get no ENs met. It's a huge ego blow to be a little *** edit *** not to mention probably very unattractive to my wife. I wouldn't respect me if I was her. My instincts are telling me to not do anything she asks, yeah that'll teach her a lesson. You keep telling me to be patient and that my wife will begin to meet my needs if I behave a certain way. I don't have faith that this will happen. It's like I obsess over making her happy but I'm not on her radar. My wife tells me she doesn't know what I want and that my expectations are too high. Too high? Geez touch my leg now and again, comfort me, show me I am important, make me feel loved. Don't look at me like I'm insane for asking to do something nice for me. You made me coffee today and therefore you've met your requirements? And then there is the inevitable "well if you just waited I was gonna do something nice" game. I have a hunch I'll be waiting for the rest if my life at this pace. I need to reset right now, went for a walk to cool off but didn't feel better, had a beer still not feeling any better.
Okay, I've read the beginning, and I've glanced through the middle, but I want to go back to the beginning.
Basically, you were a jerk. The rest of it is why you think it was okay to be a jerk.
Here's the truth: it's never okay to be a jerk, for any reason. Even if your wife isn't meeting your needs, even if you're not sure things are working, even if she's being a jerk to you ... it's never okay to be a jerk. In fact, it's abusive.
No matter what you plan to do, no matter what you think is or isn't going to happen, you need to do something about the fact that you were a jerk.
Here is what I suggest for a START:
"I'm sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me. How can I make it up to you."
Put some space in between those sentences; those are bullet points; build around them.
You may not believe that meeting your wife's emotional needs will result in getting your needs met. You may be right, maybe not. But I will tell you one thing for certain: you using tools like disrespect and anger will absolutely ensure that your needs do not get met long time. If you ever get what you want that way, it will be short term, and it will generate so much resentment that you may never get them met again, and you may even cause an aversive reaction to be associated with meeting your needs.
This doesn't get better until you put the weapons down. (SDs, DJs, AOs) It will not get better. No matter what comes next in your plan, step number one needs to be to put those down. Otherwise all you are dealing with is mutually assured destruction.
Meeting emotional needs is like learning to play a complicated musical instrument like a piano.
You may have learned how to play a scale.
She is still learning how to tune the instrument and can't sound a single note, yet.
From her point of view, you might as well be asking her to play a symphony.
You are not even a week out from your last fight. That's too soon to be expecting as much as you are expecting.
When you wish your wife would do something, and she does not, and you react this negatively -- you are making a demand.
And the way you are writing about it above is disrespectful.
These tools will not get you what you want.
Remember when it looked for a little while like things were looking up, a day or two back? Do you want to know what started that? It was your commitment to eliminate love busters. Now you are pulling them back out for use again. As long as you do that, don't expect much.
Markos - I totally agree. You just put it a lot more clear for Hill.
Thanks!
I totally agree with you, too, Powerbane. Especially the "That was me for awhile earlier this year" part. That was definitely me.
Hill, have you ever lifted weights, tried to decrease the time you ran a mile, or played a sport?
When you step in the weightroom, you don't just sit down and bench 225 pounds (just throwing a number out there). You start with the bar and make sure your form is good. Then you start adding a bit of weight and slowly start getting stronger. Or you start running and it takes you 12 minutes to run a mile and you want to do it in 8 minutes. So you keep at it and little by little you start getting to where you want to be.
I have middle school and high school soccer players. With high school, I�m pretty much able to concentrate on tactics and not worry about technique. In other words, I don�t have to work with my striker to correctly �strike� the ball into the goal like I do a middle school soccer player. But when I had them in middle school, we had to start with the basics�knee over ball, body over knee, etc. I can�t just throw them in a formation and expect them to �get it�. They have to slowly learn the basics and they will fail a lot at first. They learn from experience and practice. But with my middle school athletes, it does me no good to get upset and yell at them if they don�t perform well when they�re just beginning.
I worked with a new client today in the gym. We started with dumbbell pressing. Her form was terrible. So I had to go through and show her the correct way to press. And she started with 10 pounds. Would it have done me any good to say, �Geez! Why can�t you get this? And only 10 pounds? Really? Why can�t you do better?!� Then we started on the conditioning aspect, she was getting exhausted on the first circuit and could barely make it 200 meters on the rowing machine. And even her form on the rowing machine was off so she was using way too much effort. Thing is she had no idea what she was doing. I can�t expect her to perform at the same level as my 21 year old trainee that I�ve been working with for 3 years now. I have to start her off on basic techniques and keep positively reinforcing them patiently.
You can�t expect immediate results. And getting emotional isn�t helping. If you think you�re acting like a �*** edit ***� then stop. It really is that easy. It�s easy and difficult at the same time. You know all those emotions that you can�t get control of that you realize you need to? Well, your wife is having trouble in the same way. And not only does she realize she needs to do a better job but now she�s afraid of the way you�ll react. We have a basketball coach at the school that if the athletes technique is off, he makes them run. So instead of working with the athlete to fix their shooting, he just yells and punishes the entire team. So now not only does this basketball player not know how to correctly to shoot but now he�s extremely nervous every time he steps up to shoot and it absolutely makes his shooting off more because now he�s nervous and doesn�t want to disappoint the coach.
My question to the basketball coach is, �do you really think he�s missing baskets on purpose?� and the same question to you, �do you really think she�s sitting around thinking how she�s not going to meet your needs today?�
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
I'm similar that way, so I'll be interested to read people's advice to you about it.
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
Don't respond immediately to her requests. Give yourself a few minutes to process it, to actually weigh it. If you can't give her an answer right away ask if it is ok if you think about it for a little while.
Now, let her know you are going to start doing this in advance so she doesn't feel like you are blowing her off. Sit down and let her know that you want to be able to learn to POJA and in order to do that you have to be able to ensure that you are enthusiastic about things. This will involve taking time to asses how you really feel, which you are out of the habit of doing. You've become used to subsuming your desires and wishes for hers so much so that you're not even sure what you like and don't like.
Now, it is ok if sometimes you go with it and say yes. For example, we struggled early on implementing POJA for eating out because I refused to go to a place unless my H was enthusiastic about it... turns out he wasn't enthusiastic about any place in particular so we'd get frustrated trying to find a place he was enthusiastic about. He always just said yes to whatever I picked before. Turns out he WAS enthusiastic about going out to dinner with me. The dinner and time with me were key for him, the particular location didn't matter at all.
So if you're saying yes a lot and can't seem to figure out why your resentment isn't building, it is likely that while you may not enjoy the specific thing you are doing, you ARE enthusiastic about meeting your wife's needs or requests, and that is ok.
The best guide in these things is to measure and gague your own resentment. This is why I say take a moment before responding to a request from your wife. Take a moment to check in with your Taker and see how he feels.
Maybe you say yes to your wife, and you notice yourself getting irritated about something, take a moment to check in with your Taker to see what it is that is bothering you. Then let your wife know you aren't enthusiastic about what you are doing anymore, let her know why and ask to try to do something else instead.
You are used to shutting your Taker up. Give him time to speak, when he does surface, acknowledge what he is wanting and express that to your wife so you can both address it.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
The nice thing about understanding ENs is that once they are established and a plan is laid out for meeting them you don't have to constantly ask, there is a plan in place to address them. This is because your needs become met by habit. Then, you only have to check in occasionally or ask for something specific you may need.
For example, my husband needs affection. I know what kind of affection he likes so I have made it a point to cultivate the habit of doing these acts of affection he likes every day. At this point they have become second nature. I like affection a different way which DH has worked to develop the habit of meeting. A while back I noticed I was feeling a bit frustrated with him and realized it was because he had slipped a bit in meeting this particular need, so I simply mentioned I'd missed his little gifts and notes and I'd like to see more - because he understands the importance of needs he stepped it up and we're back on track.
Now you have to stop seeing yourself as an inconvenience. Your needs are important. Shutting up your Taker is the path to fueling your resentment and eroding your marriage.
DH had a hard time with this as well. He hated asking for things, he felt like he was just making trouble and inconveniencing me. It was tough, but once he realized how much his not asking for what he wanted was hurting our marriage, he started speaking up. His not asking for the needs he wanted met was depriving me of a vital opportunity to love and care for him, he was robbing me of the chance to love him.
That is what you are doing when you don't ask for what you need from your wife. You are robbing her of the chance to build intimacy and show love to you. She has committed to love and care for you - if she doesn't know what it is she has to do in order to do that she cannot do it.
The hardest for DH was learning to ask for sex. I have a lower sex drive than him but 99.999% of the time I'm more than willing to jump in the sack if he arches an eyebrow, he just has to ASK. It took a while before he became comfortable with asking.
A key factor, and this is something for your wife to do, is your wife needs to be open and willing to consider meeting those needs you want in a loving and positive way. I found the more positive I was about having sex when DH asked, the more likely he was to ask next time he wanted some.
However you can make this easier on her by making sure you phrase your requests thoughtfully as opposed to relying on Love Busters to get what you need.
Ok my thoughts seem to be all over the map but I hope some of this helps.
Hilltopper, be aware that if you are saying "no" to something that is an emotional need for your wife, you will be missing an important opportunity to deposit love units.
The best thing to do in such a case is to find a way in which you can be enthusiastic about meeting the need. The classic example given here has the genders reversed: a typical man has an emotional need for sexual fulfillment while many women don't want to fulfill their husband's need. In such a situation, they have to work together to find a way in which she will be enthusiastic about meeting her need.
If at all possible, don't just say "no," say "I have a problem with that, but I want to find an alternative that will make us both happy."
The most important thing you can do right now is to focus on making massive love bank deposits every day (and not making any withdrawals, of course).
Also, make sure your "no," if you have to say one, is "no, I don't want to do that," and not "no, I want to do this, and we agreed to do this, and we're doing it anyway." Review the POJA: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you are planning to do something and discover your wife is reluctant, don't do it!
Walk me thru two things:
1. How to say no to her. She asks for anything I say sure. I'm not even into anything anymore. My likes revolve around whatever she wants, totally pathetic.
Don't respond immediately to her requests. Give yourself a few minutes to process it, to actually weigh it. If you can't give her an answer right away ask if it is ok if you think about it for a little while.
Now, let her know you are going to start doing this in advance so she doesn't feel like you are blowing her off. Sit down and let her know that you want to be able to learn to POJA and in order to do that you have to be able to ensure that you are enthusiastic about things. This will involve taking time to asses how you really feel, which you are out of the habit of doing. You've become used to subsuming your desires and wishes for hers so much so that you're not even sure what you like and don't like.
Now, it is ok if sometimes you go with it and say yes. For example, we struggled early on implementing POJA for eating out because I refused to go to a place unless my H was enthusiastic about it... turns out he wasn't enthusiastic about any place in particular so we'd get frustrated trying to find a place he was enthusiastic about. He always just said yes to whatever I picked before. Turns out he WAS enthusiastic about going out to dinner with me. The dinner and time with me were key for him, the particular location didn't matter at all.
So if you're saying yes a lot and can't seem to figure out why your resentment isn't building, it is likely that while you may not enjoy the specific thing you are doing, you ARE enthusiastic about meeting your wife's needs or requests, and that is ok.
The best guide in these things is to measure and gague your own resentment. This is why I say take a moment before responding to a request from your wife. Take a moment to check in with your Taker and see how he feels.
Maybe you say yes to your wife, and you notice yourself getting irritated about something, take a moment to check in with your Taker to see what it is that is bothering you. Then let your wife know you aren't enthusiastic about what you are doing anymore, let her know why and ask to try to do something else instead.
You are used to shutting your Taker up. Give him time to speak, when he does surface, acknowledge what he is wanting and express that to your wife so you can both address it.
2. How to ask for things. I'm a simple guy don't need much. I don't ask for anything from my wife. I used to ask for sex but stopped that too. I've always wanted her to just do things for me without asking. Not sure why just how I am. I've never been one to inconvenience others you know?
The nice thing about understanding ENs is that once they are established and a plan is laid out for meeting them you don't have to constantly ask, there is a plan in place to address them. This is because your needs become met by habit. Then, you only have to check in occasionally or ask for something specific you may need.
For example, my husband needs affection. I know what kind of affection he likes so I have made it a point to cultivate the habit of doing these acts of affection he likes every day. At this point they have become second nature. I like affection a different way which DH has worked to develop the habit of meeting. A while back I noticed I was feeling a bit frustrated with him and realized it was because he had slipped a bit in meeting this particular need, so I simply mentioned I'd missed his little gifts and notes and I'd like to see more - because he understands the importance of needs he stepped it up and we're back on track.
Now you have to stop seeing yourself as an inconvenience. Your needs are important. Shutting up your Taker is the path to fueling your resentment and eroding your marriage.
DH had a hard time with this as well. He hated asking for things, he felt like he was just making trouble and inconveniencing me. It was tough, but once he realized how much his not asking for what he wanted was hurting our marriage, he started speaking up. His not asking for the needs he wanted met was depriving me of a vital opportunity to love and care for him, he was robbing me of the chance to love him.
That is what you are doing when you don't ask for what you need from your wife. You are robbing her of the chance to build intimacy and show love to you. She has committed to love and care for you - if she doesn't know what it is she has to do in order to do that she cannot do it.
The hardest for DH was learning to ask for sex. I have a lower sex drive than him but 99.999% of the time I'm more than willing to jump in the sack if he arches an eyebrow, he just has to ASK. It took a while before he became comfortable with asking.
A key factor, and this is something for your wife to do, is your wife needs to be open and willing to consider meeting those needs you want in a loving and positive way. I found the more positive I was about having sex when DH asked, the more likely he was to ask next time he wanted some.
However you can make this easier on her by making sure you phrase your requests thoughtfully as opposed to relying on Love Busters to get what you need.
Ok my thoughts seem to be all over the map but I hope some of this helps.
My wife and I had a long meaningful talk on the way home from our trip. It was rocky and I misbehaved multiple times which I've since apologized for. Moving forward I think we both discovered that the number one way for me to not read into things and use SD's to get my needs me is to get much, much better at telling my wife what I want. For example we went to two wineries on the way home, had fun, then she began looking out the window in silence. Based on past experience I just assumed she was uncomfortable talking with me or giving me the silent treatment. So I figured to remain silent myself and give her some time. Instead she began digging on why I was "stewing" which led to multiple DJ's back and forth, my wife saying some things that really tore my heart out, followed by more silence, then amazingly an awesome effort from my wife to diffuse the situation and tell me that she doesn't know what I want. She wants honesty all the time. She wants me to do the following which seem to be a good plan to me:
1. Always ask her if I don't understand what she just said or means. Do this to make sure I don't read into what she does or doesn't mean.
2. Always tell her what I want. Whether it is SF, affection, to hold my hand, to go out to dinner, you name it, I need to ask it.
Communication right now in our lives horrific. I never know what she wants or where I stand and it is the same thing for her. This will improve dramatically. Asking for things doesn't come naturally for me but I know it needs to be done now if we want to save our marriage. This starts today. I will likely need some help with this task which might sound easy to most of you but is really, really hard for me.
I wanted to be clear about moving forward. When my wife asked to ask her for things I need, she put her hands on my hand and looked me in the eyes. She repeated it again and again. It made me feel good that "everything is ok" and I needed that. It made me know I can ask my wife anything. She does love me but us incredibly frustrated with me. Tonight really nice wine together after kids go down.
Hilltopper, be aware that if you are saying "no" to something that is an emotional need for your wife, you will be missing an important opportunity to deposit love units.
The best thing to do in such a case is to find a way in which you can be enthusiastic about meeting the need. The classic example given here has the genders reversed: a typical man has an emotional need for sexual fulfillment while many women don't want to fulfill their husband's need. In such a situation, they have to work together to find a way in which she will be enthusiastic about meeting her need.
If at all possible, don't just say "no," say "I have a problem with that, but I want to find an alternative that will make us both happy."
The most important thing you can do right now is to focus on making massive love bank deposits every day (and not making any withdrawals, of course).
Also, make sure your "no," if you have to say one, is "no, I don't want to do that," and not "no, I want to do this, and we agreed to do this, and we're doing it anyway." Review the POJA: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. If you are planning to do something and discover your wife is reluctant, don't do it!
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score. For some reason over time I started the habit of not asking my wife for anything including meeting my needs. It makes no sense really and I guess there is no point of getting Freudian about it. I let her know that when I do ask for things on a rare occasion that it she has a habit of not outright saying "no", but instead pushes them off for another day. I frequently get the answer of "maybe tomorrow night", or "not right now because I'm too tired." The example I gave to her was about massages. We bought massage oil enthusiastically together a few months ago. We gave each other one massage(no sex just massage)and it was an amazing experience. I've asked her 4-5 times since then and always get the brush off. Being a "reader into things" type of person I just take that as a reason to never ask again. She doesn't say no to everything, but she makes me feel discouraged quite frequently.
Last night we were doing good and had a slight bump in the road when it came time to figure out what dinner to order for her folks for mother's day. Basically it had to do with me not knowing what my wife wanted and my wife not knowing what she wanted too. To my wife not having a disappointing meal is a big deal to her and I know this. I told her the reason I was not inclined to order the food for us is because of the backlash of getting something she didn't like or wasn't satisfied with. Its not that I wasn't willing to take charge and do this for her, it is more that she is very hard to please in this area. She has no problem telling me if I cook something for her that she doesn't like. I guess what I'm saying is that from my perspective my wife is hard to please and I've grown accustomed to being fearful of "screwing up". She was tired, wanted me to take charge of something for us, and I really didn't want to do it because of the frequency of being criticized. Tough call here for me, her EN from me was having me take initiative about our RA without having to be asked, yet on my end I wanted to avoid what has become a common result of criticism. How might Dr Harley suggest I handle those scenarios?
Don't let her criticism of you become a reason for you to not try to meet her emotional needs. If you have tried in the past and been criticized, incorporate the criticism into your plans for trying again in the future. Don't give up. Meeting your wife's emotional needs is a complicated habit that you will be able to make improvement on all your life.
Her criticism is a disrespectful judgment, and it's a problem that you want her to solve in order to make your marriage better. Dr. Harley has worksheets for that.
Try again to meet her emotional needs, and if you get criticized, communicate it to her through the worksheet and CONTINUE to try to meet her emotional needs.
Just a couple of posts back you mentioned that you caught yourself "behaving badly." You didn't give us a lot of details, but I surmise there were selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and/or angry outbursts involved. I am certain that it caused pain to your wife and probably made her feel like giving up. Do you want your wife to stop trying to meet your emotional needs as a result, or do you want her to keep trying to meet your emotional needs and be patient with you while you learn to eliminate SDs, DJs, and AOs? If you want her to be patient with you and continue trying to meet your emotional needs, then I suggest you also be patient with her and continue to try to meet hers.
You will get better, and she will have less to criticize. And she will learn to eliminate criticism and communicate with respectful complaints, instead.
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
There were all three of those and yes I caused pain to my wife and postponed the healing and meeting of EN's. The difference is that I learned from our last question to always ask my wife what she means or how she is feeling rather than just guessing, making assumptions based on the situation, and coming to my own conclusions. This is what I've done since the beginning of my journey with MB and always gets me in to trouble. I learned it is ok to ask my wife if she is irritated at me without offending her. She can answer me "no" or "yes because of this" and we can go about our day. Prior to this revelation I would not ask her, assume she was irritated at me, try and figure out why she was irritated, realize there was nothing to be irritated about, realize that I didn't do anything to make her irritated, then get mad because she was irritated at me for no reason, then lash out with a DJ or SD to retaliate, when in reality there was nothing of the sort taking place.
I also learned to ask for things from her. This morning before I left I said, "I love big hugs in the morning before I leave for work." Know what she did? She gave me a big hug and a kiss.
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding, I was explaining why I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
Communication right now in our lives horrific. I never know what she wants or where I stand and it is the same thing for her. This will improve dramatically. Asking for things doesn't come naturally for me but I know it needs to be done now if we want to save our marriage. This starts today. I will likely need some help with this task which might sound easy to most of you but is really, really hard for me.
How do you typically ask for things? Can you relate a typical scenario?
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding
I
did. Ask Markos how happy he is now
I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
You can and should say no, btw, even if she makes a request instead of a demand, but you are not enthusiastic about the request. Don't let your Giver take over and drain your own love bank by letting her gain at your expense. The goal is to find a solution that makes BOTH of you happy.
Your Giver will destroy your marriage just as much as your Taker will.
Still listening to the radio program? Friday had a great segment about the difference between complaints and criticism that you might want to hear.
Hi Hilltopper,
I've been reading your thread and have noticed a few consistent "themes" in your postings (and please take my observations as constructive criticism):
1. **edit** behavior and accept the fact that any AO's, DJ's, etc are completely unacceptable and inexcusable, you will continue to be a jerk. Even if you apologize afterward, your apologies mean nothing if you continue to act the same way without making changes. You have a lot of growing to do in this area and it is going to take a lot of awareness and effort in the beginning. You've gotten some great advice on how to curb your behavior. Soak it in, read it over and over, analyze your behavior in a journal, whatever you have to do to fully embrace new habits, DO IT.
2. You are HORRIBLY impatient. You have spent YEARS damaging your marriage. It is going to take time to recover from said damage. Think of it this way: You eat poorly from Halloween until New Years because of the holidays and gain 20 pounds. Are you going to lose 20 pounds in 3 days just because you go to the gym for an hour or two or is this going to take a few months to work off? Your wife is hurt and scared and you continue with bad behaviors when you start feeling as though she's not working hard enough. Again, plenty of people have told you to work on your own side of the street. They don't mean anything else by it other than fix YOURSELF. I'm not saying your wife had no part in the damage that was done, but at this point it's irrelevant. She's on board with MB, she knows what to do, she's learning to use the tools, so knock it off! No more score keeping, no more expectations of ANY kind, just do what you're supposed to be doing. Also, you have no say in how long it takes for your wife to feel safe enough to be affectionate with you in a way that "comes naturally" so STOP with the fights already. You can't go more than a few days until you let your ridiculous expectations take over and you love bust your wife again. When you do that, you are starting from SQUARE ONE, each and EVERY time. Do YOURSELF a favor if you want to see improvement and STOP FIGHTING!
**edit**
Bottom line is you have a lot of work to do. Just keep working away. If you REALLY TRULY want to save your marriage, keep working, stop making excuses and lose your expectations.
Hill, aBetterMe is right in that you need to do more about your abusive love busters. An apology alone isn't sufficient. You have been involved in these for years, and it's going to take your wife some time to recover from that, and of course she can't do that if they are ongoing.
Have you read the opening chapters of Dr. Harley's book
Love Busters, recently? There's a conversation in there that frightens me in which a man has it out with his wife and finally tells her what's bothering him. It frightens me because I identify with it so much. It sounds just like how I've treated Prisca. The scary thing is that at the end of the conversation
he feels much better! His wife, on the other hand, does not. She is traumatized. She may agree to what he wants, but because he used love busters along the path to getting it, giving him what he wants results in debits in his account in her love bank, destroying their marriage.
Grace isn't here giving us her perception on the weekend, and so we have no way of knowing how she feels about it. I assure you that if she does not feel as optimistic as you do right now, then that is important information. She may feel terrible as a result of your love busters, even though you apologized!
No tolerance for SDs, DJs, and AOs in marriage means exactly what it says: NO tolerance, at all. These behaviors are like nuclear weapons. They will not give you what you want; they only set up a situation like the United States and the Soviet Union in the Cold War: mutually assured destruction. The only way to win that game is not to play it.
You guys have got to avoid fights at all costs.
AT ALL COSTS. That literally means you should leave conflicts unresolved temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You should leave your needs unmet temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You can refuse to fight no matter what she does or does not do. You can refuse to use SDs, DJs, and AOs no matter what she does or does not do.
Your conversations have got to become pleasant. Conversation is almost certainly a top emotional need for one or both of you. If it is not one now, it almost certainly will move into the top once other problems are taken care of and the two of you move toward intimacy. Probably solving conversations are usually not enjoyable and don't meet the emotional need for conversation at all. Even less so when they go into love busters! As long as you engage in love busters, you will be creating a situation where you cannot meet your wife's need for intimate conversation. A better idea on your drive might have been, after your bad behavior, to DROP the subject and save it for later and engage in some ENJOYABLE conversation if your wife was willing. Conversation is just about the make-or-break EN for many women. At all costs you must avoid the enemies of conversation that Dr. Harley lists in His Needs, Her Needs.
I hope this doesn't sound too rough, but you have got to learn to hold yourself to an absolutely high standard of NO tolerance. Be on your best behavior for the woman whose heart you are trying to win. It is better for you and us here to get into a tussle and rough you up holding you to a higher standard than for your wife to feel like she's having to drag you up to that standard.
But of course it's best not to have such a tussle at all.
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present. But we all already have enough problems of the present! Learn to keep a lid on your behavior in the present, and meet your wife's emotional needs, and your marriage will recover and thrive, probably in fairly short order! But until it is thriving, if you are still engaging in love busters, don't fall into the trap of looking at anything else as being the cause of the problem.
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Not wanting to say "yes" to every request of my wife I think is more about wanting to settle the score.
Cut it out. Keeping score will get you no where you want to go.
You cut it out!
Just kidding
I
did. Ask Markos how happy he is now
I think I tried to justify my desire to want to say no. I DID cut it out after I realized there is no justification in doing so and will never do it again unless the request is a SD.
You can and should say no, btw, even if she makes a request instead of a demand, but you are not enthusiastic about the request. Don't let your Giver take over and drain your own love bank by letting her gain at your expense. The goal is to find a solution that makes BOTH of you happy.
Your Giver will destroy your marriage just as much as your Taker will.
Yes you are correct I can say no to things that I'm not enthusiastic about, forgot to mention that. I've read about the Giver and Taker many times and I would like to understand it a bit more. Being a Giver has caused a lot of damage and resentment in my marriage. I'm confused about the difference between "not letting my Giver take over", and "still giving and meeting my wife's EN's". Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
Yes you are correct I can say no to things that I'm not enthusiastic about, forgot to mention that. I've read about the Giver and Taker many times and I would like to understand it a bit more. Being a Giver has caused a lot of damage and resentment in my marriage. I'm confused about the difference between "not letting my Giver take over", and "still giving and meeting my wife's EN's". Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
The Policy of Joint Agreement is your best guide to navigating this. If you and your wife BOTH feel enthusiastic about something, then that means that it satisfies both of your Givers and both of your Takers.
Don't agree to something just to make your wife happy if it is going to make you resentful, particularly if you are going to keep score or AO about it afterward.
On the other hand, don't fall into the trap of leaving your wife's needs unmet ... look for ways that you can be enthusiastic about meeting them. You need to be making MASSIVE love bank deposits, DAILY.
Do I want to be the Giver, but just check with my Taker?
The Giver and Taker are not good/bad in and of themselves. They are instincts to watch for within yourself. Your Giver will give without regard to your own welfare, and this can get you into trouble, so you should learn to watch for it. Your Taker will take without regard to your wife's welfare, and this can also get you into trouble, so you should learn to watch for it.
You should also pay attention to your wife's Giver and Taker. Her Giver may be making sacrifices to do what you ask for. Never pursue a reluctant agreement; if she is reluctant about a request, change the circumstances of what you are requesting in a way that makes her ENTHUSIASTIC about what you are requesting, or else WITHDRAW the request.
Also, her Taker is likely to give you VITAL INFORMATION. Her Taker will naturally not take your welfare into account. Do not punish her for this. Instead, use the information her Taker gives you about what she wants, and brainstorm ways to meet the needs her Taker expresses in ways that you can be enthusiastic about.
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Hilltopper - I've seen this question asked many times throughout this thread. What SPECIFICALLY has your wife asked of you to meet her needs? I'm not getting the impression all the gifts you're giving her are what she wants.
One other thought - I decided to stop drinking over a month ago and this has also made big improvements in my marriage and our interactions. I love a glass of good wine, but it wasn't making me into the person I want to be. I seems as though you both enjoy a good glass on a regular basis and that drinking goes hand in hand with your UA time. Have you considered leaving alcohol alone until you guys get back on your feet?
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
Hilltopper - I've seen this question asked many times throughout this thread. What SPECIFICALLY has your wife asked of you to meet her needs? I'm not getting the impression all the gifts you're giving her are what she wants.
I realize that I've shared a couple of "gift giving" stories which has given the impression that I am perhaps trying to buy my wife or meet her EN's improperly. If you read back through there are many stories of other things totally unrelated to gifts of any kind that were meant to show that I'm making an effort. A while back when we were just learning this stuff, my wife told me her #1 EN was romance. My exercise in giving thoughtful gifts was showing "effort". My wife is concerned that I just don't care about anything and has mentioned that the key element to much of her EN's, whether it be affection, DS, etc is "effort." On my end I felt that my efforts were either never received well or never led to my own EN's being met so I kind of "gave up." To answer your question my wife wants "affection", "conversation", and most of all "honesty". She interprets much of my affection for her as being thoughtful. Conversation isn't her talking and me pretending to listen, it is me looking her in the eyes and taking a genuine interest in what is meaningful to her. Honesty(this is the biggy) is me not clamming up or making faces when something is bothering me, it is telling her immediately how I'm feeling, or asking her if something is wrong rather than coming to my own conclusions. I realized that despite being an honest person, I was not being honest by withholding my feelings and keeping it bottled up inside. Keep in mind this discovery occurred yesterday about noon so the implementation of this honesty is still new. I have yet since that time yesterday withheld anything from my wife and will continue to do so.
Still listening to the radio program? Friday had a great segment about the difference between complaints and criticism that you might want to hear.
Missed Friday because we were traveling. I also missed it because I read something to her Friday morning off the forum and she told me she needed a break from MB. I figured it not a good idea to then hop in the car for our trip and turn on the MB Radio Program. I did listen to it this morning which might have been Friday's show, but just the tail end. I'm gonna listen today's show on the way home. Very priceless stuff on there.
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present.
I'm totally blowing up this thread! LOL
Hi Markos,
I while I understand Dr. Harley's reasoning regarding individual counseling, I suggest it here because it has helped me so much with understanding more about my present behavior. I'm a very logical person and it's helpful to have a neutral third party to provide insight and to bounce feelings and ideas off of.
The purpose of counseling in my situation was not to have a place to wallow in my anxiety or sadness but rather a "class" to attend to learn more about my strengths and shortcomings. Counseling is not efffective if you are passive, but if you put in the work and take it seriously there is so much you can learn.
In this context, I think Hilltopper could find counseling useful. There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it. I think counseling could really help with anger management as well.
Just my 2 cents.
Great, keep listening! Try to catch Friday's show if the iPhone app lets you go back.
Did Grace say why she wanted a break from Marriage Builders?
In this context, I think Hilltopper could find counseling useful. There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it. I think counseling could really help with anger management as well.
Actually, he has come quite a ways in changing himself. Hilltopper and Grace have only just started the program. Give them some time -- these are not skills that are perfected overnight.
Hill, aBetterMe is right in that you need to do more about your abusive love busters. An apology alone isn't sufficient. You have been involved in these for years, and it's going to take your wife some time to recover from that, and of course she can't do that if they are ongoing.
Have you read the opening chapters of Dr. Harley's book
Love Busters, recently? There's a conversation in there that frightens me in which a man has it out with his wife and finally tells her what's bothering him. It frightens me because I identify with it so much. It sounds just like how I've treated Prisca. The scary thing is that at the end of the conversation
he feels much better! His wife, on the other hand, does not. She is traumatized. She may agree to what he wants, but because he used love busters along the path to getting it, giving him what he wants results in debits in his account in her love bank, destroying their marriage.
Grace isn't here giving us her perception on the weekend, and so we have no way of knowing how she feels about it. I assure you that if she does not feel as optimistic as you do right now, then that is important information. She may feel terrible as a result of your love busters, even though you apologized!
No tolerance for SDs, DJs, and AOs in marriage means exactly what it says: NO tolerance, at all. These behaviors are like nuclear weapons. They will not give you what you want; they only set up a situation like the United States and the Soviet Union in the Cold War: mutually assured destruction. The only way to win that game is not to play it.
You guys have got to avoid fights at all costs.
AT ALL COSTS. That literally means you should leave conflicts unresolved temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You should leave your needs unmet temporarily if that is what it takes for you to avoid fights. You can refuse to fight no matter what she does or does not do. You can refuse to use SDs, DJs, and AOs no matter what she does or does not do.
Your conversations have got to become pleasant. Conversation is almost certainly a top emotional need for one or both of you. If it is not one now, it almost certainly will move into the top once other problems are taken care of and the two of you move toward intimacy. Probably solving conversations are usually not enjoyable and don't meet the emotional need for conversation at all. Even less so when they go into love busters! As long as you engage in love busters, you will be creating a situation where you cannot meet your wife's need for intimate conversation. A better idea on your drive might have been, after your bad behavior, to DROP the subject and save it for later and engage in some ENJOYABLE conversation if your wife was willing. Conversation is just about the make-or-break EN for many women. At all costs you must avoid the enemies of conversation that Dr. Harley lists in His Needs, Her Needs.
I hope this doesn't sound too rough, but you have got to learn to hold yourself to an absolutely high standard of NO tolerance. Be on your best behavior for the woman whose heart you are trying to win. It is better for you and us here to get into a tussle and rough you up holding you to a higher standard than for your wife to feel like she's having to drag you up to that standard.
But of course it's best not to have such a tussle at all.
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present. But we all already have enough problems of the present! Learn to keep a lid on your behavior in the present, and meet your wife's emotional needs, and your marriage will recover and thrive, probably in fairly short order! But until it is thriving, if you are still engaging in love busters, don't fall into the trap of looking at anything else as being the cause of the problem.
One thing that really concerns me: there's a lot of posting here about your unmet needs. What's going on right now to meet your wife's needs? I assume you are doing something ... is it what she wants? I'm not sure how your wife is, but a typical woman would like a lot of small, regular, frequent affectionate acts rather than a couple of large, big, expensive ones. The key phrase is: "environment of affection."
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend. I also know that my multiple apologies will not be enough to get over it that fast because I've disappointed her before. If I could just say one more time that my inability to speak up when I feel my wife DJ'd me, or neglected to meet my needs, is a massive breakthrough. I really don't want any of you to overlook this because it is so key in every issue we ever have. After wine tasting when she stared out the window my feelings told me that she was mad at me. No good real reason other than I thought we had a pretty good time and that the conversation would likely continue. Truth is she had a slight buzz after some wine and eating and just wanted to enjoy the scenery! :)I don't have to "assume" things anymore and that is so exciting for me and hopefully will be for my wife as she sees my behavior. Sometimes with people as emotionally dense as I am, you have to tell them the same things in ten different ways until it makes sense. I feel that about this discovery of mine. I also can feel your frustration you likely share with my wife about me not getting it.
Great, keep listening! Try to catch Friday's show if the iPhone app lets you go back.
Did Grace say why she wanted a break from Marriage Builders?
I don't think she put out a press release about it but my gut tells me it was a reaction to me pushing it so hard the previous two days?
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend. I also know that my multiple apologies will not be enough to get over it that fast because I've disappointed her before. If I could just say one more time that my inability to speak up when I feel my wife DJ'd me, or neglected to meet my needs, is a massive breakthrough. I really don't want any of you to overlook this because it is so key in every issue we ever have. After wine tasting when she stared out the window my feelings told me that she was mad at me. No good real reason other than I thought we had a pretty good time and that the conversation would likely continue. Truth is she had a slight buzz after some wine and eating and just wanted to enjoy the scenery! :)I don't have to "assume" things anymore and that is so exciting for me and hopefully will be for my wife as she sees my behavior. Sometimes with people as emotionally dense as I am, you have to tell them the same things in ten different ways until it makes sense. I feel that about this discovery of mine. I also can feel your frustration you likely share with my wife about me not getting it.
Do you recognize those assumptions of yours as DJs? It's great that you see that you don't have to assume anything, but do you realize that when you DO make assumptions, you are DJing her?
I don't know that individual counseling and delving into childhood issues is really a positive way forward. Dr. Harley says that doing so makes the problems of the past into problems of the present.
I'm totally blowing up this thread! LOL
Hi Markos,
I while I understand Dr. Harley's reasoning regarding individual counseling, I suggest it here because it has helped me so much with understanding more about my present behavior. I'm a very logical person and it's helpful to have a neutral third party to provide insight and to bounce feelings and ideas off of.
The purpose of counseling in my situation was not to have a place to wallow in my anxiety or sadness but rather a "class" to attend to learn more about my strengths and shortcomings. Counseling is not efffective if you are passive, but if you put in the work and take it seriously there is so much you can learn.
In this context, I think Hilltopper could find counseling useful. There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it. I think counseling could really help with anger management as well.
Just my 2 cents.
There's a number of problems with some counselors, and you have to know what approach you're getting. Some are so bad as to encourage you to end your marriage so that you can be happy! Others follow all kinds of ineffective approaches.
The anger management field is particularly bad about that. There are all kinds of failed approaches out there that are still going strong, like teaching people to "express their anger appropriately" or having them "vent" to try to "get it all out" by punching a pillow or screaming or raging or such (which just reinforces the habit of anger, intensifying the problem) or trying to resolve issues from their past or get in touch with their inner child. None of these work. At least, that's what my anger management therapist tells me!
And Dr. Harley agrees with him, apparently.
If a counselor knows how to eliminate the problems of Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts, knows how to teach new habits to replace these, then that could be very helpful. If the counselor is told this is the goal up front, and actually has a past track record of effectiveness dealing with these, and doesn't go on a fishing expedition to try to get to the "real problem" behind the problem or whatever. On that note, I think Hilltopper could really benefit from calling up Steve Harley, alone, and saying "I have a problem with Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts; can you help coach me through a plan to eliminate these?"
I'm a very logical person and it's helpful to have a neutral third party to provide insight and to bounce feelings and ideas off of.
The purpose of counseling in my situation was not to have a place to wallow in my anxiety or sadness but rather a "class" to attend to learn more about my strengths and shortcomings.
There are some neutral third parties here, and we can be a good class to teach the MB concepts.
Of course, we are peers and not professionals.
There is so much blame between him and his wife, and he doesn't seem truly willing to look at himself in all of this. He's essentially says over and over "I'm putting in the work to meet her EN's but she's not doing good enough in response." And while he recognizes when he AO or DJ's, he's not making much in the way of changes, just apologizing and doing the same thing 3 days later and then blames his wife for it.
I'm not sure that any of us has enough insight to read Hilltopper and judge his motivations this deeply. He may simply not know how to do what you are saying, yet, so saying that he is unwilling to is a little bit more than I think anyone can say.
The fact is that as long as Hilltopper doesn't
eliminate SDs, DJs, and AOs, his marriage will never be able to improve long-term. The Marriage Builders plan calls for
eliminating these three categories of abusive behavior. What does Dr. Harley do when someone comes to see him and isn't following the plan? Well, according to his book
Effective Marriage Counseling, Dr. Harley focuses with such a person on their failure to follow the plan.
The Marriage Builders material is chock full of help to eliminate these three abusive behaviors, especially if a person reads and listens to everything he can get his hands on and
FOLLOWS it diligently, like his life depends on it.
Hilltopper has been dabbling in the material since at least the beginning of the year, but we saw him really start to focus on the problem of his SDs, DJs, and AOs just a couple of weeks ago. Two weeks is a really short time to give up and say "It didn't work, we're going to need more help."
A while back when we were just learning this stuff, my wife told me her #1 EN was romance. My exercise in giving thoughtful gifts was showing "effort". My wife is concerned that I just don't care about anything and has mentioned that the key element to much of her EN's, whether it be affection, DS, etc is "effort." On my end I felt that my efforts were either never received well or never led to my own EN's being met so I kind of "gave up."
To answer your question my wife wants "affection", "conversation", and most of all "honesty". She interprets much of my affection for her as being thoughtful. Conversation isn't her talking and me pretending to listen, it is me looking her in the eyes and taking a genuine interest in what is meaningful to her. Honesty(this is the biggy) is me not clamming up or making faces when something is bothering me, it is telling her immediately how I'm feeling, or asking her if something is wrong rather than coming to my own conclusions. I realized that despite being an honest person, I was not being honest by withholding my feelings and keeping it bottled up inside. Keep in mind this discovery occurred yesterday about noon so the implementation of this honesty is still new. I have yet since that time yesterday withheld anything from my wife and will continue to do so.
A couple of following questions for items in red:
1. Romance is not a true emotional need so I will interpret this to be "Affection". What specifically has she said is the affection she was to receive? Is this impromptu kisses, flowers on Friday, a weekly date night without kids? I know she wants you to show "effort" but that isn't clear enough. Effort doing what exactly? I'm still concerned you're not doing the right thing since you state your efforts have not been received well.
2. What is "thoughtful"? Making dinner when she's exhausted without her having to ask? Running an errand or two on your way home from work? Again, if she hasn't specified, she needs to.
A final thought on just realizing the importance of honestly sharing feelings. I've only just recently FULLY understood the absolute importance of Radical Honestly and I believe this is the most important aspect of MB so embrace it. If you can't be honest, any "progress" will crumble under the weight of the lies it was built upon.
Great, keep listening! Try to catch Friday's show if the iPhone app lets you go back.
Did Grace say why she wanted a break from Marriage Builders?
I don't think she put out a press release about it but my gut tells me it was a reaction to me pushing it so hard the previous two days?
Pushing hard == demand.
Just a comment: when you reply to posts that contain questions, answer the questions. It helps us help you. Don't treat the questions as rhetorical.
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend. I also know that my multiple apologies will not be enough to get over it that fast because I've disappointed her before. If I could just say one more time that my inability to speak up when I feel my wife DJ'd me, or neglected to meet my needs, is a massive breakthrough. I really don't want any of you to overlook this because it is so key in every issue we ever have. After wine tasting when she stared out the window my feelings told me that she was mad at me. No good real reason other than I thought we had a pretty good time and that the conversation would likely continue. Truth is she had a slight buzz after some wine and eating and just wanted to enjoy the scenery! :)I don't have to "assume" things anymore and that is so exciting for me and hopefully will be for my wife as she sees my behavior. Sometimes with people as emotionally dense as I am, you have to tell them the same things in ten different ways until it makes sense. I feel that about this discovery of mine. I also can feel your frustration you likely share with my wife about me not getting it.
Do you recognize those assumptions of yours as DJs? It's great that you see that you don't have to assume anything, but do you realize that when you DO make assumptions, you are DJing her?
But of course! How many DJing Hilltoppers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
That is what I meant by illustrating my wife staring out the window. I'll never again assume anything, I'll just ask, she'll tell me, and we'll be done with it.
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she really wasn't enthusiastic about the weekend originally, was she?
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she really wasn't enthusiastic about the weekend originally, was she?
She planned the entire weekend months ago. I thought it sounded fun. She told me she didn't want to go on the trip because we were fighting and didn't want to have to "put on a smiley face" around family as if everything was ok. I was totally down with not going because I was feeling much the same about it. A day or two passed, they were fairly pleasant and we both decided together we definitely wanted to go. It wasn't all bad, there were many really fun times we had with the kids and each other for sure.
There's a number of problems with some counselors, and you have to know what approach you're getting. Some are so bad as to encourage you to end your marriage so that you can be happy! Others follow all kinds of ineffective approaches.
I 110% agree with you. I knew exacty what i wanted from counseling and what I would and wouldn't accept as "advice" thanks to all I've read and learned on this site. My counselor has never once mentioned (or probably thought of mentioning) anything ridiculous like "trial separation" or "divorce". She knows my goals and simply helps me reach them, but as you've said there ARE TERRIBLE counselors. You definitely have to know how to identify them.
The anger management field is particularly bad about that. There are all kinds of failed approaches out there that are still going strong, like teaching people to "express their anger appropriately" or having them "vent" to try to "get it all out" by punching a pillow or screaming or raging or such (which just reinforces the habit of anger, intensifying the problem) or trying to resolve issues from their past or get in touch with their inner child. None of these work. At least, that's what my anger management therapist tells me!
And Dr. Harley agrees with him, apparently.
**edit**
If a counselor knows how to eliminate the problems of Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts, knows how to teach new habits to replace these, then that could be very helpful. If the counselor is told this is the goal up front, and actually has a past track record of effectiveness dealing with these, and doesn't go on a fishing expedition to try to get to the "real problem" behind the problem or whatever. On that note, I think Hilltopper could really benefit from calling up Steve Harley, alone, and saying "I have a problem with Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts; can you help coach me through a plan to eliminate these?"
You and I are on the same page!
I'm not sure that any of us has enough insight to read Hilltopper and judge his motivations this deeply. He may simply not know how to do what you are saying, yet, so saying that he is unwilling to is a little bit more than I think anyone can say.
You're correct, and it was wrong to judge. I should have stated my observation in a different way. My apologies Hilltopper. And Markos while I agree that 2 weeks is a short amount of time to say "I need more help", honestly I wish I had asked for extra help earlier in my own process. That's why I opted to share the idea.
I know for certain my wife hated this weekend.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but she really wasn't enthusiastic about the weekend originally, was she?
She planned the entire weekend months ago. I thought it sounded fun. She told me she didn't want to go on the trip because we were fighting and didn't want to have to "put on a smiley face" around family as if everything was ok. I was totally down with not going because I was feeling much the same about it. A day or two passed, they were fairly pleasant and we both decided together we definitely wanted to go. It wasn't all bad, there were many really fun times we had with the kids and each other for sure.
Okay, the scenario wasn't exactly what I thought it was, then.
See how much damage fighting does? First it almost robbed you of a great opportunity to deposit love units in your account. Then, it transformed that opportunity into an experience your wife hated.
You have got to stop the fighting; you have got to unilaterally disarm.
Hilltopper, I'm concerned that your wife feels like she needs a break from Marriage Builders. That tells me she doesn't feel like this has been a win for her. That tells me she feels like you are asking more from her than you are giving.
Put the problem of your own love busters on the front burner and solve it, fast! Put the problem of her meeting or not meeting your emotional needs on the back burner until this problem is dealt with.
Hill,
You are losing your wife. She is becoming increasingly discouraged by your continued DJs.
STOP assuming she's not doing her part.
STOP name calling (just eliminate the word "[censored]" from your vocabulary, okay?)
STOP THE DEMANDS
Your wife is trying, and you are losing her. STOP THE ABUSE.
You are going to have to work overtime to fill her Love Bank after you drained it dry this weekend. What are you going to do for her?
Are you committed to completely eliminating the abusive Love Busters? Are you committed to protecting your wife from yourself?
What, in detail, is your plan? How are you going to protect your wife?
Put the problem of your own love busters on the front burner and solve it, fast! Put the problem of her meeting or not meeting your emotional needs on the back burner until this problem is dealt with.
What he said. Just do it.
Hill - you are definitely putting your needs ahead of your wife's needs.
Markos and Prisca are both giving you good advice and guidance. I've been there right where you are too.
Protect your wife. Protect her man!! Would you treat your boss or even some stranger like you treat her? I think not!
Make a plan according to MB principles and then get on board! This woman truly loves you.
By the way - you probably won't get this but I'm going to put it out to you anyway - It's not all about you! Think about it friend.
Hill, I saw a list of funny comments one time about what men want women to know/do. I think this one applies to you:
"If there are two ways to take something, I meant it the way that doesn't make you mad."
You need to give your wife the benefit of the doubt much more than you have.
I also agree with the other poster that you should limit your use of alcohol during your UA time for a bit, as it may be aggravating your anger with each other. I've recently realized this in my marriage as well. Its not always easy to do as I live in Australia and alcohol is always on offer.
Keep at it Hill, you guys can make it.
Oh, one more thing, you need to let your wife explain to you what she means about romance or doing nice things. I asked my husband for more romance and he took that to mean more sex. I said, no its doing nice things for me, and bringing me little tokens that show that he was thinking about me. He just refuted that and said "oh, that again."
So for him romance is cuddling and more sex, and for me its thoughtful acts. We're both right.
Specifically I'm gonna come home and hug her, apologize for how I abused her all weekend. I'm then gonna make her a healthy dinner because she told me she wanted one. Then I'll make her a bath to soak her sore legs from the marathon. Then I'm gonna listen to her all night if need be. I want to show her through my actions that she can believe me that I won't read into anything again. Tell her that I recognize what dishonesty is and that I will never hold my feelings back. I AM committed to ending DJs and protecting her from my disgusting rancid behavior. I want to give her a reason to love me and I haven't done that in a long time. I don't want to lose her.
A reminder to posters to help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts or kindly refrain from posting. I see a lot of personal opinions that are clearly not in line with MB being posted. Before posting, please ask yourself if this is in line with MB or not.
Thank you
I AM committed to ending DJs and protecting her from my disgusting rancid behavior.
How?
I AM committed to ending DJs and protecting her from my disgusting rancid behavior.
How?
Well i need help here. I now know how to recognize Them better so I want to show some self control when I feel the urge. Specifically I will be honest at all times and ask her things immediately rather than assuming anything. I guess I'm having a hard time communicating a specific plan maybe you can help me do so?
Hill, I saw a list of funny comments one time about what men want women to know/do. I think this one applies to you:
"If there are two ways to take something, I meant it the way that doesn't make you mad."
You need to give your wife the benefit of the doubt much more than you have.
I also agree with the other poster that you should limit your use of alcohol during your UA time for a bit, as it may be aggravating your anger with each other. I've recently realized this in my marriage as well. Its not always easy to do as I live in Australia and alcohol is always on offer.
Keep at it Hill, you guys can make it.
Oh, one more thing, you need to let your wife explain to you what she means about romance or doing nice things. I asked my husband for more romance and he took that to mean more sex. I said, no its doing nice things for me, and bringing me little tokens that show that he was thinking about me. He just refuted that and said "oh, that again."
So for him romance is cuddling and more sex, and for me its thoughtful acts. We're both right.
I tend to look for immediate reactions as a measurement stick of whether or not doing something nice is well received or not. This is wrong. I'm working on meeting her EN's consistently and not always looking for what I get out of it.
What a great night! I love that gal of mine.
I can't afford to hurt her any more. How could I DJ any more.
Hill - you are definitely putting your needs ahead of your wife's needs.
Markos and Prisca are both giving you good advice and guidance. I've been there right where you are too.
Protect your wife. Protect her man!! Would you treat your boss or even some stranger like you treat her? I think not!
Make a plan according to MB principles and then get on board! This woman truly loves you.
By the way - you probably won't get this but I'm going to put it out to you anyway - It's not all about you! Think about it friend.
I thought about this statement a lot about it not being about "me". I believe this judgement is justified in terms of it's intent for sure. I've shown that I think selfishly about me first and foremost. What you may not know is that although I haven't shown my wife that I want to create love in our marriage very well I still do love her more than you can imagine. I always have. Do I show her correctly? No not at all man, I've abused her for years. I'm paying the price for this as is she. I want to give this woman all that she deserves. I want her to feel the love for me that I feel for her. I have failed in this endeavor thus far but I intend to change that. She is sooooo friggin amazing, and instead of cherishing her I blew it. I made her feel bad. I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now. This isn't a false promise whatsoever. I'm just an idiot and never understood what I was doing. Needless to say, I think you'll see things change around here, starting with me. Otherwise I'll lose her, and that would crush me and it would crush her more. I can't wait to see her tomorrow morning as she is asleep, but when she awakes I'll tell her again how sorry I am for my behavior. She may or may not believe me but this is a start, and that is all I can do.
I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now.
Great, tell us. Because a couple of posts back you were admitting that you didn't know how. So, now that you've had this discovery, share it with us.
This isn't a false promise whatsoever.
You should practice letting everybody else make up their own minds about that. If you are having to tell people this, it shows that there is little evidence to believe it, and you are hoping to prove it by merely saying it.
Needless to say, I think you'll see things change around here, starting with me.
You have said this before.
Why should we believe that you will not fall back to demands, disrespect, and anger the next time your emotional needs are not being met? You are saying exactly what you said the last time.
You are saying that you have changed.
The evidence shows that a few weeks ago, you were the kind of person who gets frustrated every 2-3 days and subjects his wife to demands, disrespect, and anger -- and that YOU ARE STILL THIS MAN.
How strongly motivated are you to change this? In 2-3 days, will we be having this same conversation again, with you saying you really get it this time, right after another string of demands, disrespect, and anger from you?
Your account in your wife's love bank cannot take that. It is already in the red. Despite your protests that last weekend was so wonderful, it was horrible for Grace. This means that your account balance is lower now than it was before the weekend. The reason is your love busters. No matter what you are doing to make deposits, the debits from your love busters are growing LARGER. She is doing well and making you feel WONDERFUL. She made you feel like this weekend was wonderful. That means she is doing something RIGHT. As a matter of fact, she was very responsive to what Prisca and others have been writing to her on her thread about ending her own love busters, and about saying "Sorry" to you when she makes a mistake, which is something you indicated was a problem. She is changing for you.
I ask again, how motivated are you to do something about this?
I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now.
Great, tell us. Because a couple of posts back you were admitting that you didn't know how. So, now that you've had this discovery, share it with us.
This isn't a false promise whatsoever.
You should practice letting everybody else make up their own minds about that. If you are having to tell people this, it shows that there is little evidence to believe it, and you are hoping to prove it by merely saying it.
Needless to say, I think you'll see things change around here, starting with me.
You have said this before.
Why should we believe that you will not fall back to demands, disrespect, and anger the next time your emotional needs are not being met? You are saying exactly what you said the last time.
You are saying that you have changed.
The evidence shows that a few weeks ago, you were the kind of person who gets frustrated every 2-3 days and subjects his wife to demands, disrespect, and anger -- and that YOU ARE STILL THIS MAN.
How strongly motivated are you to change this? In 2-3 days, will we be having this same conversation again, with you saying you really get it this time, right after another string of demands, disrespect, and anger from you?
Your account in your wife's love bank cannot take that. It is already in the red. Despite your protests that last weekend was so wonderful, it was horrible for Grace. This means that your account balance is lower now than it was before the weekend. The reason is your love busters. No matter what you are doing to make deposits, the debits from your love busters are growing LARGER. She is doing well and making you feel WONDERFUL. She made you feel like this weekend was wonderful. That means she is doing something RIGHT. As a matter of fact, she was very responsive to what Prisca and others have been writing to her on her thread about ending her own love busters, and about saying "Sorry" to you when she makes a mistake, which is something you indicated was a problem. She is changing for you.
I ask again, how motivated are you to do something about this?
I'm not frustrated, in fact I feel fantastic about it all and highly motivated. I understand you have no reason to believe change has arrived just like my wife has no reason to believe. You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end. I'll let my wife's feedback answer these questions rather than making grandiose statements like I have above, fair? When did I say last weekend was great? I said specifically it was horrible for my wife and that I was a jerk. We had a few good times, but it was mostly bad. The realization I had was great, is that what you meant?
Hilltopper,
I haven't seen a response to these questions:
1. Romance is not a true emotional need so I will interpret this to be "Affection". What specifically has she said is the affection she was to receive? Is this impromptu kisses, flowers on Friday, a weekly date night without kids? I know she wants you to show "effort" but that isn't clear enough. Effort doing what exactly? I'm still concerned you're not doing the right thing since you state your efforts have not been received well.
2. What is "thoughtful"? Making dinner when she's exhausted without her having to ask? Running an errand or two on your way home from work? Again, if she hasn't specified, she needs to.
I'm not frustrated, in fact I feel fantastic about it all and highly motivated. I understand you have no reason to believe change has arrived just like my wife has no reason to believe. You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end. I'll let my wife's feedback answer these questions rather than making grandiose statements like I have above, fair?
Hilltopper -
I think the bigger question is, regardless of how motivated you are feeling today, what exactly are you going to be doing to protect your wife from DJ's and AO's? You have a tendency to speak in broad terms. We need to hear specifics. Heck, you're wife needs you to know the specifics.
Despite your grand realization, you still have a problem. The cheery attitude you are projecting indicates that you are not taking this problem seriously. It looks for all the world like you want us to quit talking about that problem ASAP.
You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end
Wrong, my friend. If you think all you can do is TALK, you are missing the real work which is to be done.
The realization you had was bought at the expense of your wife's feelings. Is that really anything to celebrate?
Get your copy of Love Busters and reread chapter two, today, highlighter in hand.
I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now. This isn't a false promise whatsoever. I'm just an idiot and never understood what I was doing.
So present your detailed plan, and let's critique it. How are you planning on protecting your wife?
Despite your grand realization, you still have a problem. The cheery attitude you are projecting indicates that you are not taking this problem seriously. It looks for all the world like you want us to quit talking about that problem ASAP.
You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end
Wrong, my friend. If you think all you can do is TALK, you are missing the real work which is to be done.
Yes I still do have a problem. How does my cheery attitude indicate me not being serious? I can understand you looking at past performance and judging me based on this which is fine. I'm ok talking about this all day with you Markos, but I'm not doing a good job of giving you the answer that satisfies you, thus our back and forth. I'm excited and I'm taking this extremely serious, that is how I feel, and it would be great if maybe you could encourage me maybe so we can utilize it?
The realization you had was bought at the expense of your wife's feelings. Is that really anything to celebrate?
Are you looking for more pious communication from me? Should I cease expressing any encouraging signs that I'm learning and improving?
Sorry for the questions, I'm just not understanding what you are intending to happen by asking the question above.
Get your copy of Love Busters and reread chapter two, today, highlighter in hand.
See this makes sense to me, I can do that!
Despite your grand realization, you still have a problem. The cheery attitude you are projecting indicates that you are not taking this problem seriously. It looks for all the world like you want us to quit talking about that problem ASAP.
You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end
Wrong, my friend. If you think all you can do is TALK, you are missing the real work which is to be done.
Yes I still do have a problem. How does my cheery attitude indicate me not being serious?
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.
The realization you had was bought at the expense of your wife's feelings. Is that really anything to celebrate?
Are you looking for more pious communication from me? Should I cease expressing any encouraging signs that I'm learning and improving?
Should I cease telling you if I think that the encouraging signs you are sharing really aren't all that encouraging?
I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now. This isn't a false promise whatsoever. I'm just an idiot and never understood what I was doing.
So present your detailed plan, and let's critique it. How are you planning on protecting your wife?
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:
1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.
I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.
Despite your grand realization, you still have a problem. The cheery attitude you are projecting indicates that you are not taking this problem seriously. It looks for all the world like you want us to quit talking about that problem ASAP.
You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end
Wrong, my friend. If you think all you can do is TALK, you are missing the real work which is to be done.
Yes I still do have a problem. How does my cheery attitude indicate me not being serious?
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.
I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.
Hilltopper,
I'm not sure about Markos, but at least from my perspective, a feeling of cheeriness is not the feeling of resolute determination. I associate cheeriness with flightiness and distraction. What your wife needs is focus, concious thought at every moment, every interaction. You truly need to "THINK before you speak", meaning you are literally pausing and considering the words you've heard PRIOR to opening your mouth. This giddiness is a distraction. Buckle down and do the work.
Hilltopper,
I'm not sure about Markos, but at least from my perspective, a feeling of cheeriness is not the feeling of resolute determination. I associate cheeriness with flightiness and distraction. What your wife needs is focus, concious thought at every moment, every interaction. You truly need to "THINK before you speak", meaning you are literally pausing and considering the words you've heard PRIOR to opening your mouth. This giddiness is a distraction. Buckle down and do the work.
This is what is so tough about forums, particularly for people like me who verbalize much better than communicate via words. I was happy how the entire day went yesterday and I wanted to share that with you all. I wasn't remotely concerned about me, I was happy that I did all of the things you say above. I didn't utter a word, nor send a text without thinking about how my words would sound to my wife. I asked her what she meant if I wasn't sure. I didn't make any assumptions. For example, she declined the bath that I offered her after dinner. She said "maybe tomorrow night". I said sure and was done with it. I didn't assume she was rejecting my attempt to make her happy, in fact I didn't assume anything. If my expression of cheerfulness came off as "everything is fine now" then I apologize as that was not my intention. Everything is not fine and I'm making every effort to not head down the path I have before.
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:
1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.
I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.
You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.
Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?
You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.
Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.
I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.
You are looking at it wrong.
You see what Markos said?
"Your wife is injured... your cheery attitude is not appropriate."
You took a knife, placed it in her gut, twisted... and now you want to smile?
Are you a
serial killer?
Cheerful is
not the appropriate response when we injure our spouse, concern and care is. Yes, we should be pleasant, but I too would be worried if my wife were
cheerful after injuring me.
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:
1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.
I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.
You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.
Yes this is correct. I also assume things which causes me to feel wronged and make demands when I have no reason to do so.
Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?
I make demands instinctively because I think I might get my needs met when in reality I am causing the opposite to happen. I have no right to have my needs met, haven't earned that yet. I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.
You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.
Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
[quote][/quote]
Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:
1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.
I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.
You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.
Yes this is correct. I also assume things which causes me to feel wronged and make demands when I have no reason to do so.
Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?
I make demands instinctively because I think I might get my needs met when in reality I am causing the opposite to happen. I have no right to have my needs met, haven't earned that yet. I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.
You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.
Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."
Shoot, botched the quotes, sorry!!!
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.
I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.
You are looking at it wrong.
You see what Markos said?
"Your wife is injured... your cheery attitude is not appropriate."
You took a knife, placed it in her gut, twisted... and now you want to smile?
Are you a
serial killer?
Cheerful is
not the appropriate response when we injure our spouse, concern and care is. Yes, we should be pleasant, but I too would be worried if my wife were
cheerful after injuring me.
I totally understand where you are coming from. I was pleased at how I treated my wife yesterday and wanted to share that with you. I also felt a very deep love for my wife and shared that with you too after I did with her. Believe me I'm not walking around the house whistling ZippideeDooDah.
I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.
You DO need to be worried. You know of the skills but are still a student. You need to be hyper-aware of every interaction. It is still likely you will feel hurt when your expectations of her behavior get the better of you. Today is an "up day", tomorrow could easily be a "down day". You may make a mistake and AO or DJ your wife. Habits do not change overnight.
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
Again, be hyper aware. You are LEARNING to see things differently but until you REACT in a different way, you are stil a student. Tests will come. Be sure you handle them appropriately.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.
Be careful because you HAVE kept score in the past. This has caused you to DJ and AO your wife when she hasn't lived up to your expectations. Again, habits die hard. What specifically are you going to do to recognize when you are keeping score and what are you going to do specifically to curb it?
I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."
You should follow up with a question, such as "Is there anything I can do to help?". In my book, that would show affection, effort and domestic support.
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Dr. Harley says that when you have gone 4 weeks without a DJ, you have eliminated them. I would put 4 weeks from today down as my deadline.
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You don't need to test it. You are making your plan right now. Write it down on your plan and DECIDE that you are going to follow it.
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.
You've kept score in the recent past, Hill. Your plan needs to acknowledge that.
And I don't believe that she can do whatever she wants. You have been demanding, and demands do not allow your spouse to say "no."
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."
Are you going to put it on your plan?
This plan needs to be written down. It needs to have detailed steps, such as I suggested. And it needs to be presented to your wife for approval.
So what does your plan look like at the moment?
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Dr. Harley says that when you have gone 4 weeks without a DJ, you have eliminated them. I would put 4 weeks from today down as my deadline.
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You don't need to test it. You are making your plan right now. Write it down on your plan and DECIDE that you are going to follow it.
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.
You've kept score in the recent past, Hill. Your plan needs to acknowledge that.
And I don't believe that she can do whatever she wants. You have been demanding, and demands do not allow your spouse to say "no."
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."
Are you going to put it on your plan?
This plan needs to be written down. It needs to have detailed steps, such as I suggested. And it needs to be presented to your wife for approval.
So what does your plan look like at the moment?
Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:
1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score
Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:
1. Not expressing my feelings to you
Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:
1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!
Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!
Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.
At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?
Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:
1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score
"I will do this by shutting up and listening. I will also learn to empathize with your point of view and feelings, which are just as valid as mine."
Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:
1. Not expressing my feelings to you
"I am committed to Radical Honesty, and will start expressing my feelings to you in a respectful way."
Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:
1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.
3. I will be patient.
I will accept "no" as an answer. I will use the "friends of good conversation" to negotiate a solution that will make both of us happy.
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!
Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.
At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?
I don't think they are. There is a questionnaires section, and they aren't listed:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!
Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.
At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?
I don't think they are. There is a questionnaires section, and they aren't listed:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.htmlBut that prompted me to remember that there's probably some good reading material for you about SDs, DJs, and AOs in the Q&A section.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html
Also be sure to mention the deadline to your wife, and make sure she agrees. Be sure to agree to exactly what you will do if by the deadline you haven't successfully eliminated these LB. I suggest you tell your wife "If I haven't succeeded in eliminating these lovebusters by June 7, I will set up an appointment for myself with Steve Harley."
And all of this needs to be in writing.
Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:
1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score
"I will do this by shutting up and listening. I will also learn to empathize with your point of view and feelings, which are just as valid as mine."
Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:
1. Not expressing my feelings to you
"I am committed to Radical Honesty, and will start expressing my feelings to you in a respectful way."
Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:
1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.
3. I will be patient.
I will accept "no" as an answer. I will use the "friends of good conversation" to negotiate a solution that will make both of us happy.
Ok all typed up and ready to go.
Also be sure to mention the deadline to your wife, and make sure she agrees. Be sure to agree to exactly what you will do if by the deadline you haven't successfully eliminated these LB. I suggest you tell your wife "If I haven't succeeded in eliminating these lovebusters by June 7, I will set up an appointment for myself with Steve Harley."
And all of this needs to be in writing.
Understood
Also be sure to mention the deadline to your wife, and make sure she agrees. Be sure to agree to exactly what you will do if by the deadline you haven't successfully eliminated these LB. I suggest you tell your wife "If I haven't succeeded in eliminating these lovebusters by June 7, I will set up an appointment for myself with Steve Harley."
And all of this needs to be in writing.
Understood
Ok sent my plan to my wife, she added a couple of things and we are set to go.
Remember that in order for your ENs to stick, you need to stop LBing. It's hard to keep emotional attachments and/or feel safe when you're constantly in a state of stress or irritability.
So eliminating your LBs are key.
Make meeting your needs as easy as possible. If you snap at her for not meeting your needs because you've done A,B,and C for her will make her feel nervous.
Learn to like and love each other.
Yep that is the plan! Last LB was Sunday morning and counting. I'm sitting next to my DW as we speak! Goal is four weeks.
Hi Hill,
I rarely have time in the evening to spend online, but I wanted to drop in and apologize for being harder on you initially than I should've been. I only recently started commenting on your thread but I've been reading both yours and Grace's since the beginning and I find it difficult to not feel passionate about your situation when I see so many similarities to my own.
I empathize so much with your wife because I have been in her shoes. Scared, withdrawn, lacking confidence and self-esteem. And of course, I was responsible for some of the damage to my marriage and am in no way a guiltless party. In a way, I want to cram everything I've learned over the last year into the last month of your own journey so you can avoid my mistakes and reach your goals faster, but this is unrealistic and unfair to you. You have your own journey to map out.
The best advice I could give anyone is to listen and take to heart the words and wisdom of the vets here. I have always been amazed at their ability to see situations for what they are and offer guidance that is dead on. I can't tell you how many times people have said in hind sight "I wish I had listened to and followed the advice I was given. How do I repair the damage I've done now?"
Don't let that be you.
You guys have a REAL chance at success, but you have to follow every part of the program.
Looking good, Hilltopper!
Hi Hill,
I rarely have time in the evening to spend online, but I wanted to drop in and apologize for being harder on you initially than I should've been. I only recently started commenting on your thread but I've been reading both yours and Grace's since the beginning and I find it difficult to not feel passionate about your situation when I see so many similarities to my own.
I empathize so much with your wife because I have been in her shoes. Scared, withdrawn, lacking confidence and self-esteem. And of course, I was responsible for some of the damage to my marriage and am in no way a guiltless party. In a way, I want to cram everything I've learned over the last year into the last month of your own journey so you can avoid my mistakes and reach your goals faster, but this is unrealistic and unfair to you. You have your own journey to map out.
The best advice I could give anyone is to listen and take to heart the words and wisdom of the vets here. I have always been amazed at their ability to see situations for what they are and offer guidance that is dead on. I can't tell you how many times people have said in hind sight "I wish I had listened to and followed the advice I was given. How do I repair the damage I've done now?"
Don't let that be you.
You guys have a REAL chance at success, but you have to follow every part of the program.
Thanks for the kind words. When I started this journey at the beginning of this year I was frustrated about not feeling that my wife wanted, needed, or loved me. I felt shut out of her life completely and I didn't know why. It is funny you mention being scared, withdrawn, lacking confidence and self-esteem, because the person you are describing is me. I have so little confidence and self-esteem that I developed the habit of not asking my wife for anything at all. I was terrified of rejection, was walking on egg shells, and began to withdraw myself here and there to protect me. It is not in my nature to be a withdrawn person for long periods of time so inevitably I would demand things from my wife because I was desperate for them. I was so lacking of confidence and completely insecure in fact that I conjured up a possible A and accused my wife four times about it without evidence. All I knew is that I was lonely and feeling unwanted or needed.
The process at which I went about trying to get what I wanted from my wife was unfair to her, but I didn't have any skills to go any other way about it. I'm learning those skills by listening to the radio show, filling out the workbook, reading LB, etc. It is a process and I'm getting better at this. I still however feel scared, lacking confidence, and have low self-esteem, but I have become less withdrawn because I now know I can always ask my wife "how she is feeling", "are you mad at me?", or similar questions rather than guessing all the time. Anyway, thanks for the note.
I felt shut out of her life completely and I didn't know why. It is funny you mention being scared, withdrawn, lacking confidence and self-esteem, because the person you are describing is me. I have so little confidence and self-esteem that I developed the habit of not asking my wife for anything at all.
I still however feel scared, lacking confidence, and have low self-esteem...
It's always interesting to me when I realize my hubby and I are feeling the same way but can't seem to get on the same page.
You guys are in this spot right now. I think knowing how you feel, and knowing Grace feels the same way, should help you empathize with her. Treat her the way you want to be treated. Anytime you feel an LB coming on, conciously tell yourself to follow the Golden Rule. Pretend your talking to yourself when you talk to Grace and you may find it easier to avoid LB's.
I told my wife I'd get back to her on this because I don't know the answer. I'm at jury duty today, wife sent a text saying it felt weird that I didn't hug her when I left this morning. I told her I thought it was strange she didn't hug me either. I said there was nothing wrong and everything is good. She told me to ask her next time for a hug and yesterday she reminded me to ask her fir things. So I sent her a note back saying, "it would be great if you initiated the affection(hugs) sometimes.". She replied back that I should not put those expectations on her because they make her feel lousy. I'm confused. She told me to ask, so I did, but then she said not to put expectations on her cause she feels bad. Was I selfish? Disrespectful? I'm certain I wasn't angry. She also said she had planned on giving me a hug but I left before she got the chance. This is very common. My wife frequently tells me she was planning on doing xyz after the fact. I told her that I wasn't sure exactly why but that it makes me feel bad when she does that. We left off with her requesting we postpone needs for a week to which I replied, "can I get back to you on that?"
Eventually you will have a written plan to meet your wife's emotional needs, kind of like the plan to avoid LBs that you put together yesterday. You will have a list of things you want to try to do everyday, probably some things you want to do every week, etc. They are basically new habits to form.
A great habit for you to form would probably be: give my wife a hug every day when I leave, and tell her I love her. This will make love bank deposits into your account in her love bank. That is a good thing, so it's a net win.
She will also be putting together a plan at some point.
But there's no reason you can't start, now. Even if that's all you put on your plan, for the moment.
She wants a hug. She'll feel better about that hug if you just give it to her instead of having a complicated discussion that brings up something you would also like (in this case, a hug). Focus on the need she brought up and a plan to meet it. When you introduce your own needs in response to her needs, she perceives it as YOU AVOIDING THE SUBJECT OF HER NEEDS. That's probably not what you intend to do, but that's how she sees it!
So hug my wife without asking? I usually do this time but she was blow drying her hair so I figured no big deal. My wife wants to postpone meeting needs. I'm not enthusiastic about this. I can understand her not being ready to meet my needs until I show her that I can avoid LBs consistently. The part that feels awful though is that she is ok without having her needs met from me. If that is me being too emotional about this then fine tell me so and I'll grab a bucket of ice water. Remember I came here more than anything because I felt my wife didn't need me so anything related to this topic is extremely sensitive. I'd like to negotiate here because although the most imortamt thing for me is to avoid LBs, I don't think the MB an suggests that you intentionally postpone meeting a spouses needs. What do you think?
So hug my wife without asking? I usually do this time but she was blow drying her hair so I figured no big deal. My wife wants to postpone meeting needs. I'm not enthusiastic about this. I can understand her not being ready to meet my needs until I show her that I can avoid LBs consistently. The part that feels awful though is that she is ok without having her needs met from me. If that is me being too emotional about this then fine tell me so and I'll grab a bucket of ice water. Remember I came here more than anything because I felt my wife didn't need me so anything related to this topic is extremely sensitive. I'd like to negotiate here because although the most imortamt thing for me is to avoid LBs, I don't think the MB an suggests that you intentionally postpone meeting a spouses needs. What do you think?
I'd be emotional about that, too.
What's happening is that your wife is in withdrawal. Review one of the Basic Concepts, the three states of mind in marriage:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.htmlPeople don't last in withdrawal long; the move from withdrawal to conflict. When she gets back into the state of conflict, she will be willing to have her needs met, but her instincts will be telling her NOT to meet your needs, and she will have trouble overriding that.
In fact, it sounds like this morning, your wife would have been willing to have had her needs met by you: she wanted a hug. No biggie, you just made a wrong assumption in not hugging her, so that chance went past. Hang on, and make a point of giving her a hug tomorrow.
You are right that Marriage Builders advocates not postponing meeting needs, but it does say that both spouses need to be enthusiastic about the way in which it was done and that both spouses need to take "no" for an answer. Right now this is crucial for you.
You are right that Marriage Builders advocates not postponing meeting needs. So, YOU need to make a point of not postponing meeting her needs. Meanwhile, in order to avoid demands, you need to make a point of not putting any pressure on her to meet your needs. Meet her needs and avoid love busters, and you will see that she becomes more willing to meet your needs. As time goes by she will be working her to put together a plan to do just that!
Don't try to educate her about what Marriage Builders calls for. That's a Disrespectful Judgment! You are trying to avoid those. (Maybe put "Don't try to educate my wife about Marriage Builders" in your plan.
) Just keep meeting needs and avoiding love busters, which will make this entire system seem more and more attractive to her and will make her want to meet your needs.
My wife wants to postpone meeting needs. I'm not enthusiastic about this. I can understand her not being ready to meet my needs until I show her that I can avoid LBs consistently. The part that feels awful though is that she is ok without having her needs met from me.
I'd like to negotiate here because although the most imortamt thing for me is to avoid LBs, I don't think the MB an suggests that you intentionally postpone meeting a spouses needs.
Hill,
My first reaction to these statements is that you are getting impatient again. You are prone to LB's based on your history when you start getting to this point. BE CAREFUL with what you say and do from this point on. And remember, YOU are supposed to worry about YOUR side of the street. You are playing a tit-for-tat game here where you want everything to be equal, "I meet her needs, she meets mine" type situation. You both are not there yet, and not to mention, this is NOT how you should be looking at the MB program. And honestly I don't get the feeling your wife DOESN'T want to meet your needs but is in the process of not only learning how to but feeling SAFE enough with you to meet them. If you LB her again today, that would go against the marriage you're trying to create and put you back at the BEGINNING.
TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN SIDE OF THE STREET. DO THE PLAN. YOU KNOW THE RULES.
I know you desperately want to feel loved by Grace, and if you hadn't LB'd all over the place these last few months, you'd probably be further along in this process, but that's not the case. You started at square one on Sunday. It's been three days so give it time!
wife sent a text saying it felt weird that I didn't hug her when I left this morning. I told her I thought it was strange she didn't hug me either. I said there was nothing wrong and everything is good. She told me to ask her next time for a hug and yesterday she reminded me to ask her fir things. So I sent her a note back saying, "it would be great if you initiated the affection(hugs) sometimes."
Is is normal that you don't keep your wife posted of your whereabouts? I never leave the house without at least saying goodbye, that way DH doesn't look up and think "Jeez, she was just here, where'd she go??". This is just common courtesy. And hugging her when you leave, just DO IT.
BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN GRACE.
Don't lecture her about how "it would be great if she did x,y,z". YOU want affection and respect so show HER affection and respect. This will fill her Love Bank, she'll learn what you'd like her to do through your actions and reciprocate.
Oh yeah,
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. <------ Take this to heart.
Markos I hear you and am on board. What I keep asking and still don't have the answer for is the following. She told me to ask her fir affection so I did just that. Her answer was don't put expectations on me. I sent my wife a long plan specifically pertaining to expectations she has if me and I have of myself. When she tells me not to place expectations on her I don't feel enthusiastic about our arrangement. The expectation of me us that I avoid LBs. She is not however ok with me asking to initiate affection, hugs, etc. The specific reason I asked her if she would be ok initiating affection is because each time I ask my wife to hug me, hold my hand, sit next to me I feel even less important than not having asked at all. Does that make sense?
She is not however ok with me asking to initiate affection, hugs, etc. The specific reason I asked her if she would be ok initiating affection is because each time I ask my wife to hug me, hold my hand, sit next to me I feel even less important than not having asked at all. Does that make sense?
SOLUTION: Don't ask, initiate. BE the change. STOP talking so much and just be the husband you want to be.
> Don't ask her to hug you, just hug her when you want a hug.
> Sit next to her if you want to sit next to her.
> Take her hand if you want to hold it.
Notice two things about the above? 1. You probably just did these things naturally WITHOUT asking when you were first together and 2. notice none of them involve asking her anything.
I said verbatim, "I have to get gas, here is the baby, have to leave now."
I said verbatim, "I have to get gas, here is the baby, have to leave now."
You know what this sounds like? "Hey boss, I have a dentist appointment. Here's that report you've been waiting on. I've gotta run."
Maybe change it up and say "Hi sweety (or whatever nickname you like), I'm running late and need to get gas on my way to jury duty. I've put the baby in her playpen and she's fine. Have a good day, I love you!" and finish it with a hug.
Why so cold Hill?
Btw, do I ever get the benefit of the doubt from you markos? From my perspective you have decided what went down incorrectly and furthermore assume it is something I make a habit of. Not cool. I'm working hard and I cone to you for advice yet you repeatedly come to conclusions that nearly always attempt to point out me being a jerk when nothing of the sort took place. I am here to follow the plan and ask a lot of questions not defend myself over nothing. I would appreciate you helping me create love in my marriage and I don't believe your assumptions do that very well.
Remember that point number one is to eliminate demands.
Markos I hear you and am on board. What I keep asking and still don't have the answer for is the following. She told me to ask her fir affection so I did just that. Her answer was don't put expectations on me.
The answer is: just say "okay." Accept that right now she is not feeling enthusiastic.
You have a plan for pumping up her enthusiasm. It is called Marriage Builders.
Part of that plan is to not do anything that could be construed as a demand or a judgment. Don't do anything that she could construe as judgment of her lack of enthusiasm. Don't do anything that could be construed as demanding that your needs be met (such as pressuring her). If you do, you will prevent your plan from working.
Before she will be enthusiastic about meeting your needs, she will first need to see that you can calmly and patiently accept "no" for an answer.
Btw, do I ever get the benefit of the doubt from you markos? From my perspective you have decided what went down incorrectly and furthermore assume it is something I make a habit of. Not cool. I'm working hard and I cone to you for advice yet you repeatedly come to conclusions that nearly always attempt to point out me being a jerk when nothing of the sort took place. I am here to follow the plan and ask a lot of questions not defend myself over nothing. I would appreciate you helping me create love in my marriage and I don't believe your assumptions do that very well.
Okay. You are free to disregard my advice.
Personally I have some ideas where I suspect some landmines and bombs might be, and I would like to let you know where they are so that you don't step on them.
I think yesterday I was asking if, in 2-3 days, you would be back to demanding/judging/AOing when your needs aren't met. Again we are at a situation where your needs aren't being met. In my opinion, the absolute most important thing you can do right now is to not do ANYTHING that even REMOTELY looks to Grace like an SD, DJ, or AO. If you want the withdrawal problem to get better, you've got to look at the cause.
Markos I hear you and am on board. What I keep asking and still don't have the answer for is the following.
Are you looking for an answer on how to guarantee that your wife will meet your needs?
There is no such answer. That will always be of her free will.
This is a difficult pill to swallow, and the danger is that the way react to this may be controlling (SDs, DJs, AOs).
What we can do is maximize the chances that your wife will meet your needs. You do that by building your balance in her love bank. The plan for that is to meet her emotional needs and avoid love busters. That's the only plan that works. If you are lucky she communicates with you and gives you helpful information to make your aim as accurate as possible. Many people are not that lucky, although some of those people have still succeeded at this.
I am here to follow the plan and ask a lot of questions not defend myself over nothing.
Hill, I am emphatically in your court. I encourage you not to waste your time defending yourself over ANYTHING. A discussion like that here is pretty much a complete waste of time.
Markos I was incorrect and I apologize, it was actually abetterme that decided I never tell my wife where I am. Let's proceed sir. Abetterme, you said you have compassion for my wifes situation and I believe your characterization of me is judgmental and assumptive. You apologized once for being hard on me. Let's not make it a second and third, agreed?
Hill .. I think you guys are coming along rather well ... considering the circumstances. ***edit***
MNG
Btw, do I ever get the benefit of the doubt from you markos? From my perspective you have decided what went down incorrectly and furthermore assume it is something I make a habit of. Not cool.
What exactly are you referring to here? I haven't once gotten the impression that Markos doesn't give you the benefit of the doubt. Actually, I think you could learn a lot from what he says whether it's hard for you to hear or not. Constructive criticsm is to be considered and appreciated. You don't need to defend yourself and if you get a 2x4, it's meant to help. Just clarify if you think something is misconstrued. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the things you've said in the past where you felt the need to re-explain yourself so we could "better see you were right" didn't turn out that way. You have a lot to learn. Let down your guard and open your heart and ears.
I'm working hard and I cone to you for advice yet you repeatedly come to conclusions that nearly always attempt to point out me being a jerk when nothing of the sort took place.
You may not think you were a jerk in a certain instance, but we hear of hurt feelings from Grace often. And honestly, your attitude in the past, even today, comes across as kind of "jerky" and "hard-headed". I'm wondering if today you're taking out your frutration with Grace here with us instead. Better to do it here of course, but it's really not going to get you where you want to be. You have A LOT of people here that have been in your shoes and dedicate time out of there day (and have for years) to come here and walk you through a process that is PROVEN to work. If you want it to work for you, you have to STOP FIGHTING IT.
I am here to follow the plan and ask a lot of questions not defend myself over nothing. I would appreciate you helping me create love in my marriage and I don't believe your assumptions do that very well.
If this is what you're here to do, then start listening, following in the advice and REALLY REALLY think about whether or not your TRULY "defending yourself over nothing". We're all here trying to help you create love but so far you haven't gone more than a few days without reverting to your bad habits. You have to accept that this is a process. 2 or 3 days of "bliss" do not equal a lifetime of easy sailing. I'm concerned you expect this and get frustrated when you don't get it. It's going to be a long road. I've been doing this for over a year and am just beginning to truly experience what I've wanted to badly.
I should mention that as soon as I accepted responsibility for my own LB's and embraced what I felt were the most difficult aspects of MB, I wasn't making much progress. I think that right now, if something is really really hard for you to do, but you KNOW it's right, there is a hang-up of some kind you need to address within yourself. At least that was the case for me.
it was actually abetterme that decided I never tell my wife where I am
Hilltopper, I NEVER said you NEVER tell your wife where you are. I asked if were normal for you to not keep her up to date on your whereabouts. This WASN'T an accusation, this was a QUESTION. That's why it ended with a ? and not a !
This is the quote that gave me the impression you left without saying anything:
I usually do this time but she was blow drying her hair so I figured no big deal.... She also said she had planned on giving me a hug but I left before she got the chance.
If if this was all my husband said to me when he left for the day,
"I have to get gas, here is the baby, have to leave now."
I'd get the impression he was irritated with me because it came across as very cold.
Markos,
LBs are still put to bed and I know that my history shows that when I crave my needs to be met I make mistakes. I'm aware of this and us why um hear asking questions and be cautious. My wife and I just had a brief talk and all us good. Our conversation was respectful, and no one made demands or DJd. There was definitely confusion I'd say. I particularly and regularly get confused by my wife and I'm sure the opposite might be true. From my perspective she vascillates frequently which makes me feel like a three-toed sloth trying to keep up with a cheetah. All in all we both handled it great! Oops, sorry for the exclamation point.
From my perspective she vascillates frequently which makes me feel like a three-toed sloth trying to keep up with a cheetah.
You both vascilate frequently due to the fact neither of you feel safe with one another yet. The key to fixing this, as you already know, is avoiding LB's. No excuses, just don't do them.
Oh i forgot to mention .. make sure to show your wife all those videos .. there is more than what i posted, probably like 10 videos or so .. .. but they are a VERY good watch all of them infact. Hopefully they have an impact on you like they did to me.
MNG
Videos great! Nice to change it up I'll watch tonight thanks mng!
NP! ... they are christian oriented so I hope that would not distract you from the actualy message of each video.. but the concepts are pretty much MB .. just explained in a different light with a bit of humor.
EdiT: I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on them ...
**edit**
moderator's note: do not disrupt this thread again!
I think deciding how much rejection you're willing to accept is a personal decision and is too difficult to summarize. There are two many variables in a marriage, especially one that is longer term. And this has nothing to do with "designing marriage around the woman". Each marriage is different and that is too broad of a statement.
There is rejection and hurt on both sides in Hill's situation. Neither party is guitless. The issue I see with Hill is that his anger and hurtful words have caused Grace to go into severe withdrawal. She has, over time, learned to interact with him in the same way with AO's and DJ's. The damage they've done to the other however will affect the other person differently. I know that Hill is scared and lacking confidence, but I get the impression it is felt much deeper by Grace. It's not fair, but life (and marriage) isn't always fair.
If Hill wants his wife to love him in the way he wants to be loved, he has to get her Love Bank out of the red and create a safe place for her to meet his needs.
And cemar, this statement is just dripping with sarcasm and generalizations. It's not constructive and certainly isn't going to help Hill.
Before she will be enthusiastic about meeting your needs, she will first need to see that you can calmly and patiently accept "no" for an answer.
So how much "NO" or rejection is acceptable? I guess we just design the whole marriage around the woman, obviously male needs don't get the same respect as female needs. The woman has all the power again.
Cemar, Hilltopper AND Grace are BOTH implementing the MB plan.
Which is more than we can say for you. Please don't discourage these posters with your unwillingness to follow the program.
Hilltopper,
Something else I meant to mention yesterday and forgot. Another good help for eliminating DJs completely is to practice being respectful all the time. And I don't mean with just your wife. Make a very concerted effort to be respectful with everybody around you, even showing respect to those who don't seem to deserve it.
It's not that you're trying to fill their love bank like you are trying to fill your wife's. BUT, it's a whole lot easier to be respectful of your wife when you are in the habit of thinking and acting respectfully with everybody.
I haven't perfected it yet. But it's good practice, and does help to change the way you think.
****edit****
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Hill, I think you and your wife should repeat what you think the other person meant. Often what we say and what we mean do not come across the same to each other.
I don't have any great examples off the top of my head. My wife used to infer a lot of things when she would say things and then get frustrated because I didn't read between the lines.
So we started with the "Okay, I hear you saying that ....."
And she would say, "No, I meant that...."
Awesome! Now we're both on the same page.
This alleviates all the reading into and trying to decipher and wondering if she really meant A when she said A or if she really means B.
What I read from your wife's comment about please ask me, but I don't want expectations is:
You asking her for a hug, not demanding a hug. Do you see the difference?
Asking implies request, telling implies a demand.
In a similar situation when DH is busy with something I usually give him a kiss on the cheek and say "Hey, I'm off hun, see you this afternoon, bye!"
I hope you also starred certain items as more important, so she can get more bang for her buck.
If he's in the bathroom with the door locked (we have kids) I'll knock on the door and say the same thing.
The way I saw the list of things that you gave your wife, this is a menu of things that she can do for you. I didn't really think it was a list of things she MUST do everyday. I think that's what she means by expectations. Your best bet is to ask her what she meant by it.
Its possible text is not the best method of communication for you all. Or maybe start using more emoticons so that you can convey more meaning.
You asking her for a hug, not demanding a hug. Do you see the difference? ... The way I saw the list of things that you gave your wife, this is a menu of things that she can do for you. I didn't really think it was a list of things she MUST do everyday. I think that's what she means by expectations. Your best bet is to ask her what she meant by it.
Happy, I think you hit the nail on the head with this insight.
Hilltopper,
Something else I meant to mention yesterday and forgot. Another good help for eliminating DJs completely is to practice being respectful all the time. And I don't mean with just your wife. Make a very concerted effort to be respectful with everybody around you, even showing respect to those who don't seem to deserve it.
It's not that you're trying to fill their love bank like you are trying to fill your wife's. BUT, it's a whole lot easier to be respectful of your wife when you are in the habit of thinking and acting respectfully with everybody.
I haven't perfected it yet. But it's good practice, and does help to change the way you think.
Yes, great advice, thank you!
Hill, I think you and your wife should repeat what you think the other person meant. Often what we say and what we mean do not come across the same to each other.
I don't have any great examples off the top of my head. My wife used to infer a lot of things when she would say things and then get frustrated because I didn't read between the lines.
So we started with the "Okay, I hear you saying that ....."
And she would say, "No, I meant that...."
Awesome! Now we're both on the same page.
This alleviates all the reading into and trying to decipher and wondering if she really meant A when she said A or if she really means B.
We are doing much better at this. I've asked my wife to communicate a little more clearly even on the small stuff like grocery lists, etc. We had an incident awhile back where she wrote "can of tomatoes" on the list. I grabbed a can of tomatoes but the recipe called for "tomato sauce" which is what she had meant in her mind. She's been doing much better and when I'm not sure what she meant I've been asking.
In an unrelated topic we have a bit of a disconnect on timing when it comes to thoughtful requests. My wife's version of a request would be, "can you fix the toilet paper roll holder?", or, "It would be great if you could help me organize my stuff in the garage." These are perfectly fine, however I'm never sure WHEN to fulfill them. I asked her if we could make "honey do" lists with specific dates and times and plan for them. That way I believe will lead to less disappointments, do you agree?
I think that's a good idea, Hill. I think it's important not to agree to more than you feel you can do. Many men have a tendency to try to please their wives by saying "yes" to everything, and of course then they can't DO everything. Remember that it is important to try to meet your wife's emotional needs and if there's something she'd like done, that's a great way to take care of it, but make sure you are honest with yourself and with her and if you don't think there is time say "I'm sorry, that won't work for me." Better than that say, "I'm doing such-and-such, when would you like me to take care of this? ... Well, that's when I was going to do such-and-such for you instead, how about ... ?"
Most importantly: be pleasant and cheerful during these conversations. Be flexible and sincerely willing to take care of her. Be sweet.
How's the work on "stewing" going, Hill?
Dr. Harley has some good material on meeting the need for domestic support. When he started doing marriage counseling decades ago many men expressed an emotional need for domestic support. Nowadays many women are expressing that need! Besides career women, stay at home mothers of small children often feel this need.
There's some material for that in HNHN, HNHN for Parents, and in the Q&A section on this website, and probably some forms in the workbook. Prisca and I started that awhile back and will probably get back to it some time in the next few months; I am looking forward to that.
I think that's a good idea, Hill. I think it's important not to agree to more than you feel you can do. Many men have a tendency to try to please their wives by saying "yes" to everything, and of course then they can't DO everything. Remember that it is important to try to meet your wife's emotional needs and if there's something she'd like done, that's a great way to take care of it, but make sure you are honest with yourself and with her and if you don't think there is time say "I'm sorry, that won't work for me." Better than that say, "I'm doing such-and-such, when would you like me to take care of this? ... Well, that's when I was going to do such-and-such for you instead, how about ... ?"
Most importantly: be pleasant and cheerful during these conversations. Be flexible and sincerely willing to take care of her. Be sweet.
Yep I'm Mr Fixit, even though I can't fix most of the things she needs. I've been working on the following with my wife. I think this might make some of the fellas here laugh:
Her: "Honey, the kids were misbehaved today, baby screamed and needed to be held, I'm so worn out."
Old Me: "Well were you consistent when you punished them? Did they respect you when you did it? Tell them Daddy is not happy. Did you give baby enough to eat, maybe she's just hungry?"
New Me: "Gosh I'm so sorry honey. When I watch them I get worn out in about a half hour so I totally understand. How about I pick up sushi on the way home?"
How's the work on "stewing" going, Hill?
What is that?
Dr. Harley has some good material on meeting the need for domestic support. When he started doing marriage counseling decades ago many men expressed an emotional need for domestic support. Nowadays many women are expressing that need! Besides career women, stay at home mothers of small children often feel this need.
There's some material for that in HNHN, HNHN for Parents, and in the Q&A section on this website, and probably some forms in the workbook. Prisca and I started that awhile back and will probably get back to it some time in the next few months; I am looking forward to that.
This works well in our house. I'm hands on cook, do dishes, bath kids, make lunches, etc a lot. She has expressed a need for me to handle more of the outside chores. Admittedly I'm not the handiest guy in the world, but from a conversation we had recently I gather that if I can't repair it, then she wants me to be the one to make the effort to hire someone to do it.
New Me: "Gosh I'm so sorry honey. When I watch them I get worn out in about a half hour so I totally understand. How about I pick up sushi on the way home?"
Wow, GREAT! Very, very empathetic! How did you remember to do that?
New Me: "Gosh I'm so sorry honey. When I watch them I get worn out in about a half hour so I totally understand. How about I pick up sushi on the way home?"
Wow, GREAT! Very, very empathetic! How did you remember to do that?
Well I'm highly motivated and I am trying to think always of how my wife might take anything I might say. How do I remember? Well I carry a giant needle in my right pocket. Right before I call, email, or text my wife I jab myself in the leg to remind myself not to be a big jerk. Works like a charm.
I think that's a good idea, Hill. I think it's important not to agree to more than you feel you can do. Many men have a tendency to try to please their wives by saying "yes" to everything, and of course then they can't DO everything. Remember that it is important to try to meet your wife's emotional needs and if there's something she'd like done, that's a great way to take care of it, but make sure you are honest with yourself and with her and if you don't think there is time say "I'm sorry, that won't work for me." Better than that say, "I'm doing such-and-such, when would you like me to take care of this? ... Well, that's when I was going to do such-and-such for you instead, how about ... ?"
Most importantly: be pleasant and cheerful during these conversations. Be flexible and sincerely willing to take care of her. Be sweet.
Yep I'm Mr Fixit, even though I can't fix most of the things she needs. I've been working on the following with my wife. I think this might make some of the fellas here laugh:
Her: "Honey, the kids were misbehaved today, baby screamed and needed to be held, I'm so worn out."
Old Me: "Well were you consistent when you punished them? Did they respect you when you did it? Tell them Daddy is not happy. Did you give baby enough to eat, maybe she's just hungry?"
New Me: "Gosh I'm so sorry honey. When I watch them I get worn out in about a half hour so I totally understand. How about I pick up sushi on the way home?"
Wow, Hilltopper, I'm impressed
Great job!
Now, just for discussion and something to think about, do you see how the Old You could come across as DJing in that first paragraph?
Markos used to talk to me the same way ... this is how I would take it:
"Well were you consistent when you punished them? Did they respect you when you did it?"
Were you doing your job right or slacking again? "Did you give baby enough to eat, maybe she's just hungry?"
...because you obviously can't figure out how to take care of your own child."Not saying that's what the Old You meant, but can you see how a tired mother of young children might take it that way?
The second paragraph is so much more empathetic and successful at showing care ... Great job!
I think that's a good idea, Hill. I think it's important not to agree to more than you feel you can do. Many men have a tendency to try to please their wives by saying "yes" to everything, and of course then they can't DO everything. Remember that it is important to try to meet your wife's emotional needs and if there's something she'd like done, that's a great way to take care of it, but make sure you are honest with yourself and with her and if you don't think there is time say "I'm sorry, that won't work for me." Better than that say, "I'm doing such-and-such, when would you like me to take care of this? ... Well, that's when I was going to do such-and-such for you instead, how about ... ?"
Most importantly: be pleasant and cheerful during these conversations. Be flexible and sincerely willing to take care of her. Be sweet.
Yep I'm Mr Fixit, even though I can't fix most of the things she needs. I've been working on the following with my wife. I think this might make some of the fellas here laugh:
Her: "Honey, the kids were misbehaved today, baby screamed and needed to be held, I'm so worn out."
Old Me: "Well were you consistent when you punished them? Did they respect you when you did it? Tell them Daddy is not happy. Did you give baby enough to eat, maybe she's just hungry?"
New Me: "Gosh I'm so sorry honey. When I watch them I get worn out in about a half hour so I totally understand. How about I pick up sushi on the way home?"
Wow, Hilltopper, I'm impressed
Great job!
Now, just for discussion and something to think about, do you see how the Old You could come across as DJing in that first paragraph?
Markos used to talk to me the same way ... this is how I would take it:
"Well were you consistent when you punished them? Did they respect you when you did it?"
Were you doing your job right or slacking again? "Did you give baby enough to eat, maybe she's just hungry?"
...because you obviously can't figure out how to take care of your own child."Not saying that's what the Old You meant, but can you see how a tired mother of young children might take it that way?
The second paragraph is so much more empathetic and successful at showing care ... Great job!
Yes I was a chronic DJer and it takes every ounce of my being not to be one. I was just thinking in the car on the way back from lunch that I've been a sarcastic DJer most of my life. My Dad is one too. We are very compassionate men and when people or friends truly "get us" they know that we'll be the most loyal, honest, and compassionate friends on earth. We are both emotional men. Shocker right?
I can cry or get teared up over just about anything, the national anthem, a great moment in sports. I had to decline marrying my closest friend because there was no way I could get past one sentence without falling to pieces. This learning experience for me is good for my wife and our marriage. It is also good for me as a person in general. I don't have to be a [censored], you know? In fact I've enjoyed not being one over the past few days and I think I could get used to it.
So yes Prisca I can see how my wife and people in general take me, and that my DJer attitude has gotten me in a big hole that I'm trying to dig out of. By the way I've just got the shovel now, I traded in the Earth Mover.
How's the work on "stewing" going, Hill?
What is that?
"Stewing." This was your word, your wife's word, for part of your over-thinking process.
How has eliminating that been going?
How's the work on "stewing" going, Hill?
What is that?
"Stewing." This was your word, your wife's word, for part of your over-thinking process.
How has eliminating that been going?
Sorry HHH, I realized that humor doesn't go over as well in a post as it does in person. What I meant was, no I haven't been stewing very much at all. If I feel something then I immediately talk to my wife and avoid the "stewing" all together.
Or I could just be irritated because you called me a snowflake in another post, lol.
How's the work on "stewing" going, Hill?
What is that?
"Stewing." This was your word, your wife's word, for part of your over-thinking process.
How has eliminating that been going?
Sorry HHH, I realized that humor doesn't go over as well in a post as it does in person. What I meant was, no I haven't been stewing very much at all. If I feel something then I immediately talk to my wife and avoid the "stewing" all together.
My bad, Hill.
Good.
I had kind of reflected on this, and had some ideas about it.
What you are doing now is excellent, though.
Or I could just be irritated because you called me a snowflake in another post, lol.
Perhaps you meant this for another member? Nice to meet you Daisy!
OH I AM SOOOOOO LAME! I saw HoldHerHand so much on this thread, I thought it was his. My apolozies. Not sure if I can delete that post, but I will try. That's what happens when I can only get on here for a few minutes at a time each day and try to rush with my posts...do forgive me. I'll be more careful next time.
HHH,
Actually I'd like your ideas on the subject very much!
Hill, you sound like you're making great progress. My family has a habit of making witty, but very sarcastic remarks. Ultimately it's mean-spirited and hurts people's feelings. I've had to retrain myself out of that, perhaps its the same for you.
On the honey-do thing, it might help to respond immediately to the request with something like "yeah, I notice the x is broken. I need to get parts from the hardware store to fix it. Can this wait until the weekend (or whenever)?" Her response will give you a clue as to the urgency of the thing.
We have a whiteboard for grocery store requests, maybe the honeydo list could be something like that?
OH I AM SOOOOOO LAME! I saw HoldHerHand so much on this thread, I thought it was his. My apolozies. Not sure if I can delete that post, but I will try. That's what happens when I can only get on here for a few minutes at a time each day and try to rush with my posts...do forgive me. I'll be more careful next time.
Daisy, my personal thread is in the recovery forum. Feel free to post any time.
I was just thinking about my own habit of stewing, Hill.
The problem isn't analyzing, or overanalyzing, its taking a path before analysis is complete, or faulty analysis guided by faulty logic.
You have the proper first step down; tell your wife what is going on. If you need time to think, tell her so. If your thoughts end up in bad places, stop, write it down, and move on. Come back later, and think about your analysis; is this logical, emotional, reactive, probable?
Eliminate conclusions based on positive criteria, and THEN share your conclusion with your wife. It seems your previous strategy was worst possible outcome oriented.
Hill, you sound like you're making great progress. My family has a habit of making witty, but very sarcastic remarks. Ultimately it's mean-spirited and hurts people's feelings. I've had to retrain myself out of that, perhaps its the same for you.
On the honey-do thing, it might help to respond immediately to the request with something like "yeah, I notice the x is broken. I need to get parts from the hardware store to fix it. Can this wait until the weekend (or whenever)?" Her response will give you a clue as to the urgency of the thing.
We have a whiteboard for grocery store requests, maybe the honeydo list could be something like that?
Yes I'm trying to retrain myself out of the world of sarcasm. I think there is a time and a place for sarcasm, but not really as a primary style of communication. As far as the list goes, if she agrees enthusiastically to placing time and dates on requests from each other is there any potential issues you see?
OH I AM SOOOOOO LAME! I saw HoldHerHand so much on this thread, I thought it was his. My apolozies. Not sure if I can delete that post, but I will try. That's what happens when I can only get on here for a few minutes at a time each day and try to rush with my posts...do forgive me. I'll be more careful next time.
Daisy, my personal thread is in the recovery forum. Feel free to post any time.
I was just thinking about my own habit of stewing, Hill.
The problem isn't analyzing, or overanalyzing, its taking a path before analysis is complete, or faulty analysis guided by faulty logic.
You have the proper first step down; tell your wife what is going on. If you need time to think, tell her so. If your thoughts end up in bad places, stop, write it down, and move on. Come back later, and think about your analysis; is this logical, emotional, reactive, probable?
Eliminate conclusions based on positive criteria, and THEN share your conclusion with your wife. It seems your previous strategy was worst possible outcome oriented.
My analysis was typically both emotional and reactive, if not illogical. For example if my wife is grumpy when I get home I jump straight over any possible conclusion but that of, "my wife is mad at me for no reason, and the entire night is ruined!" This is emotional, reactive, and illogical. The proper conclusion is that of, "my wife had a bad day with kids and I need to empathize with her situation. Furthermore if I empathize with her situation and take steps to relieve that her stress, the night might not only be pleasant, but maybe even, really, really, fun."
So I believe Dr Harley recommends taking one EN category and then writing out the many things we like within each category? So to take Affection for an example, one might do it like this?
Affection:
-Meaningful hugs when I leave for work
-Holding hands while on the couch
-Kisses on the back of the neck
-Massaging my shoulders during a long day
Is that specific enough in your minds, or is it better to go into more detail to maximize confidence in my wife's desire to meet those needs?
-Meaningful hugs when I leave for work
What is "meaningful"? Don't leave any room for misunderstanding. What may be meaningful for her, may be nothing to you.
-Meaningful hugs when I leave for work
What is "meaningful"? Don't leave any room for misunderstanding. What may be meaningful for her, may be nothing to you.
Sorry that is a little inside talk between me and Tgrace. A complaint of mine that has been around as long as I can remember was me hugging my wife and her dropping her arms to her side, not hugging me back. This isn't something new, been around as long as I can remember. I told her that I love hugs where she hugs me back with a squeeze which I termed "meaningful". She agreed and has done it several times sense, but it is a habit she'll have to work on developing.
-Meaningful hugs when I leave for work
What is "meaningful"? Don't leave any room for misunderstanding. What may be meaningful for her, may be nothing to you.
Sorry that is a little inside talk between me and Tgrace. A complaint of mine that has been around as long as I can remember was me hugging my wife and her dropping her arms to her side, not hugging me back. This isn't something new, been around as long as I can remember. I told her that I love hugs where she hugs me back with a squeeze which I termed "meaningful". She agreed and has done it several times sense, but it is a habit she'll have to work on developing.
Oh, hogwash dude.
Meaningful?
How about "actual."
- ACTUAL hugs.
Dropping your arms is not hugging someone, that's allowing someone to hug you. I've done that to FWW because... well I just didn't want to look at her, let alone hug her.
Don't worry, though. That becomes easier as your build LB$ balances.
As far as the list goes, if she agrees enthusiastically to placing time and dates on requests from each other is there any potential issues you see?
The only problem I see with this is that this places the responsibility for ordering your schedule on your wife's head and not yours. You know what all things you need to get done on the weekend. There may be additionally things that she doesn't know about (who knows, wash your hair, research something, etc).
As long as you POJA this it shouldn't be a big issue.
My husband is very sensitive to the sense that I am running his free time. Therefore I'm not very positive about specifying when I want something specificially to be done. I can tell you that if I ask DH to do something, and give a time, and he agrees to it, and he doesn't follow through...that is a LB.
Both "meaningful" and "actual" sound judgmental or borderline judgmental to me. Prisca's sitting here next to me saying it should be worded "This is the way I like to be hugged."
You should start each phrase with "I love it when ..." or "I'd love it if ..." You need to show her, in a positive and respectful way, how you like your EN met.
Telling her to give you a "meaningful" hug or an "actual" hug
judges the way she has given you hugs. Instead, be specific, and tell her "I'd love it if, when you give me a hug, you wrap your arms around me and squeeze." Don't label it meaningful, or any other term. Just explain it.
Dropping your arms is not hugging someone, that's allowing someone to hug you.
That is subjective. This may be what dropping your arms means to you, but not necessarily what it means to someone else. When my dad hugs me, my arms drop, and I melt into his embrace like a little girl. And my dad feels "hugged." Very, very subjective.
You should start each phrase with "I love it when ..." or "I'd love it if ..." You need to show her, in a positive and respectful way, how you like your EN met.
Telling her to give you a "meaningful" hug or an "actual" hug
judges the way she has given you hugs. Instead, be specific, and tell her "I'd love it if, when you give me a hug, you wrap your arms around me and squeeze." Don't label it meaningful, or any other term. Just explain it.
Dropping your arms is not hugging someone, that's allowing someone to hug you.
That is subjective. This may be what dropping your arms means to you, but not necessarily what it means to someone else. When my dad hugs me, my arms drop, and I melt into his embrace like a little girl. And my dad feels "hugged." Very, very subjective.
I hesitate to say that this is all "semantics" at this point, but I totally understand where both of you are saying. I need to be certain that I don't DJ my wife by explaining to her how her hugs may or may not be "meaningful" in my mind. Instead I need to approach it with, "It would be great when you hug me that you wrap both arms around my waste and hold on for about 10-15 seconds." That is what I would love to have. Traditionally its been a arms at the side, then kind of a push away after 2 seconds. This isn't something that has happened in the last year, its been as long as I've known her. I'm not sure if it is proper anymore to analyze why, or even if it matters. I just come from a big "bear hug" type of family, so in my mind, anything but that doesn't feel so meaningful, you know? It DOESN'T mean that her hugs are not meaningful in anyway however, just a complaint of mine that I likely asked her improperly.
Things are going really, really well. Tonight we have a SF date which she brought up last night. I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say I wasn't expecting for it to be pushed off for some reason or another. For now let's just assume that it will happen. I want to make sure I do everything in my power and utilize everything in my body language so that she feels ZERO pressure about. In the past I suppose I'd get a bit too excited and maybe self-destruct a bit. Not today.
Awkward day all day today. Nothing clicked I felt those old feelings of walking on egg shells most of the day. I think both of us hit lazy and DJs started slipping out. No zingers but just the subtle stuff that leaves you feeling exhausted at end of day.
I initiated conversation today when it felt weird and I felt shot down most of the time. She did mention that "we shouldn't always point out DJs". Not sure why. Tomorrow we agreed to a new day tomorrow.
Hi Hill, some days are just harder than others. The nice thing is tomorrow is always a new day.
She did mention that "we shouldn't always point out DJs". Not sure why.
Expressing a feeling is not the same as expressing demands. If you try to tell your spouse what to do, you are not revealing an honest feeling; you are making a demand. If your spouse does something that bothers you, the correct way to express it is simply say that it bothers you. The Policy of Joint Agreement would take over from that point to help you try to resolve the problem.
If you tell your spouse that he or she is wrong about something, you're not being honest, you are being judgmental. While you should be free to express your beliefs and opinions, you should respect your spouse's beliefs and opinions. If you try to "straighten out" your spouse, you are not being honest; you are making a disrespectful judgment. The expression of feeling should not carry judgmental baggage with it.
It goes without saying that angry outbursts are not expressions of honesty, either. When people have them, they often think that they are being honest, but that's their Taker trying to rationalize what is actually cruel and destructive. Whatever it is you have to say when you are angry is not worth saying. Keep that basic principle in mind so that you will keep your mouth shut when you feel angry. When you have recovered from your anger, it's safe to tell your spouse what was bothering you.
That's why.
She did mention that "we shouldn't always point out DJs". Not sure why.
I'm not sure what she might have heard or might be feeling, but our Marriage Builders coach (assigned to us after we went to the MB seminar) told both Prisca and I a number of times that very few couples can successfully navigate a discussion where DJs are pointed out on the spot, and strongly recommended that we just make note of them on the DJ worksheet and give each other the worksheet once a week.
Need some help. Yesterday was awkward. I feel that my wife made several comments that although technically not a DJ, the tone changes the meaning. When I bring it up I get, "I didn't mean anything by it" type replies. She denies anything if the sort and throws the words back in my face as proof that she was not disrespectful. I brought up again a comment this morning which made me feel bad. She got mad and said, "well MB doesn't work then!". I need help because I'm scared. She doesn't like me to stew, so I bring up my feelings and she doesn't like that either. I feel stuck either direction I go, and I'm afraid of "messing up" which I know makes things worse. I'd love to reset but the comments just keep slipping in which makes me feel bad again. As it stands right now I'm scared to talk to my wife.
This is one of the reasons it's dangerous to bring up DJs on the fly. The temptation is to argue that it's not a disrespectful judgment.
Plus, no matter how disrespectful your wife is, she doesn't want to be talking about DJs all the time, even if she's doing them all the time. Once a week is realistically about all people can take. So getting a written worksheet once a week is a lot safer than being told a DJ happened every time it happened.
What are you guys doing to continue to dig into the Marriage Builders material? There is definitely some material in Love Busters that will help get across the idea that we need to take it seriously when our spouse feels disrespected, even if we disagree, but it is a DJ for you to try to educate Grace on that fact and it would be far better for her to come across it herself in reading the material.
Left for work, we both agreed not a good idea to talk. Djs flying. I told her I was frustrated that no matter what I say she rejects it. Last thing I said during our discussion was, "it would be great if you could reread the dj section again today.". What am I gonna do? You know me I'll be on the site all day learning and reading. She us frustrated and so am I and one if things I'd like to POJA with her is a reset exercise. This would be something we both do that us full of affection when we find ourselves how we are today.
Remember rule number one for you, Hill:
Calm down.
Left for work, we both agreed not a good idea to talk. Djs flying.
Okay, you have got to get to the point where
NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOESyou do not commit one DJ,
EVER.
You have got to get to the point where even if she DJs you, you do not DJ her.
One of the fundamental things I learned last year that was a big revelation for me was that abuse does not justify abuse. Disrespectful judgments are marital abuse. It will make it easier for Grace to feel positively about you, your marriage, and the Marriage Builders program when she knows that you are going to protect her from you abusing her NO MATTER WHAT, even if she slips.
If you can't work that out, I would seriously get on the phone with Steve Harley ALONE and ask him for some help.
Last thing I said during our discussion was, "it would be great if you could reread the dj section again today.".
It would probably be a good idea for you to do that, too. In fact, the three abuse chapters in
Love Busters: SDs, DJs, AOs (because they are all related). And the SD, DJ, and AO sections on this site under Basic Concepts AND under the Q&A section. And maybe search around for some old radio shows on the topic, too.
I am betting the number one thing that might help you is to practice what Dr. Harley recommends to control Angry Outbursts: practice learning to relax in response to frustration. Get by yourself for a few minutes, a few times every day, turn out the lights, close your eyes, and relax every muscle in your body. Then after you've done this for a few days, start following up on the relaxation by thinking about a frustrating situation WHILE STAYING RELAXED. Think about the situation and practice staying relaxed while thinking about a trigger that frustrates you.
Over time this will help you learn to keep your cool.
If you let even one single DJ fly, and you did, then the way to dig out of this hole STARTS with you going to her and apologizing to her and not making any reference at this point to her side of it. Any reference you make to her side of it will be perceived as disrespectful on her part and will invalidate your apology and will prevent this from working.
You've done damage, now is time for damage control.
You abused her (you were disrespectful).
Your abuse was not justified by the fact that she was abusive.
Keep the issue of her abuse and your abuse separate. Work on your abuse: apologizing for it, atoning for it, eliminating it. This is the only path to a better marriage in which she will WANT to keep improving her side as well.
She us frustrated and so am I and one if things I'd like to POJA with her is a reset exercise. This would be something we both do that us full of affection when we find ourselves how we are today.
I don't think she's likely to want to negotiate anything right now. And if she did agree to this, it would likely become a trap for her: next time this happens, you might feel like it's time to do the reset exercise, and she might feel too wounded to go through with it, and if you feel frustrated about that you might abuse her; you will already have the adrenaline flowing through your system and will be likely to lose control.
Get a short circuiting exercise going for YOURSELF: some way to reset YOURSELF, calm down, relax, disperse the excitement and frustration and adrenaline flowing through your system. Focus on your own side of this because our tendency is always to incorrectly magnify our partner's faults and minimize our own. Apologize for what you've done and offer to do something nice for her to make up for it. And take NO for an answer if that is how she feels right now; just offer again later, until she feels better.
I saw a great post on this forum last week about Disrespectful Judgments:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163599&Number=2508857#Post2508857It might be helpful for you to switch the genders around and reread it that way.
Also, are you still listening to the radio program? Dr. Harley talks about SDs, DJs, and AOs practically every week. I can't tell you how helpful it's been for me to hear him keeping me straight frequently.
She did mention that "we shouldn't always point out DJs". Not sure why.
I'm not sure what she might have heard or might be feeling, but our Marriage Builders coach (assigned to us after we went to the MB seminar) told both Prisca and I a number of times that very few couples can successfully navigate a discussion where DJs are pointed out on the spot, and strongly recommended that we just make note of them on the DJ worksheet and give each other the worksheet once a week.
You've said this before but it is so hard to implement. Often times DJ's involve tone and are hard to recognize. Many times I recognize the obvious ones, but sometimes the not so obvious ones take a bit longer. What I do know is that when I'm feeling bad about a comment that my wife makes it is almost always because it is a DJ, not an SD or AO.
Remember rule number one for you, Hill:
Calm down.
Left for work, we both agreed not a good idea to talk. Djs flying.
Okay, you have got to get to the point where
NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOESyou do not commit one DJ,
EVER.
You have got to get to the point where even if she DJs you, you do not DJ her.
One of the fundamental things I learned last year that was a big revelation for me was that abuse does not justify abuse. Disrespectful judgments are marital abuse. It will make it easier for Grace to feel positively about you, your marriage, and the Marriage Builders program when she knows that you are going to protect her from you abusing her NO MATTER WHAT, even if she slips.
If you can't work that out, I would seriously get on the phone with Steve Harley ALONE and ask him for some help.
Last thing I said during our discussion was, "it would be great if you could reread the dj section again today.".
It would probably be a good idea for you to do that, too. In fact, the three abuse chapters in
Love Busters: SDs, DJs, AOs (because they are all related). And the SD, DJ, and AO sections on this site under Basic Concepts AND under the Q&A section. And maybe search around for some old radio shows on the topic, too.
I am betting the number one thing that might help you is to practice what Dr. Harley recommends to control Angry Outbursts: practice learning to relax in response to frustration. Get by yourself for a few minutes, a few times every day, turn out the lights, close your eyes, and relax every muscle in your body. Then after you've done this for a few days, start following up on the relaxation by thinking about a frustrating situation WHILE STAYING RELAXED. Think about the situation and practice staying relaxed while thinking about a trigger that frustrates you.
Over time this will help you learn to keep your cool.
If you let even one single DJ fly, and you did, then the way to dig out of this hole STARTS with you going to her and apologizing to her and not making any reference at this point to her side of it. Any reference you make to her side of it will be perceived as disrespectful on her part and will invalidate your apology and will prevent this from working.
You've done damage, now is time for damage control.
You abused her (you were disrespectful).
Your abuse was not justified by the fact that she was abusive.
Keep the issue of her abuse and your abuse separate. Work on your abuse: apologizing for it, atoning for it, eliminating it. This is the only path to a better marriage in which she will WANT to keep improving her side as well.
She us frustrated and so am I and one if things I'd like to POJA with her is a reset exercise. This would be something we both do that us full of affection when we find ourselves how we are today.
I don't think she's likely to want to negotiate anything right now. And if she did agree to this, it would likely become a trap for her: next time this happens, you might feel like it's time to do the reset exercise, and she might feel too wounded to go through with it, and if you feel frustrated about that you might abuse her; you will already have the adrenaline flowing through your system and will be likely to lose control.
Get a short circuiting exercise going for YOURSELF: some way to reset YOURSELF, calm down, relax, disperse the excitement and frustration and adrenaline flowing through your system. Focus on your own side of this because our tendency is always to incorrectly magnify our partner's faults and minimize our own. Apologize for what you've done and offer to do something nice for her to make up for it. And take NO for an answer if that is how she feels right now; just offer again later, until she feels better.
Ok just apologized for the DJ and told her I really want to hang out with her tonight. Not sure what yet I'd like to do to make up for it, but I'll do that as well, just need a bit more time to plan while at the office. I'm an emotional person and I feel like my wife knows how to push my buttons at will. I hate that about me. I have been taking deep breath's at times, but that typically only gets me through the first few. As the day progresses and I'm feeling wronged or neglected, it becomes harder and harder for me to control my emotions. I am working on that. I listen to MB Radio every day including a rebroadcast of Friday's show on the way to work.
She did mention that "we shouldn't always point out DJs". Not sure why.
I'm not sure what she might have heard or might be feeling, but our Marriage Builders coach (assigned to us after we went to the MB seminar) told both Prisca and I a number of times that very few couples can successfully navigate a discussion where DJs are pointed out on the spot, and strongly recommended that we just make note of them on the DJ worksheet and give each other the worksheet once a week.
You've said this before but it is so hard to implement. Often times DJ's involve tone and are hard to recognize. Many times I recognize the obvious ones, but sometimes the not so obvious ones take a bit longer. What I do know is that when I'm feeling bad about a comment that my wife makes it is almost always because it is a DJ, not an SD or AO.
I think the worksheet actually makes dealing with that easier! You have some time to think it over and decide exactly what it is that you found disrespectful, and you can include that on the worksheet. As opposed to trying to tell her right then, when you may not know exactly why something bothered you, and you may be feeling frustrated and likely to make a mistake.
Dr. Harley's been handing out this assignment to couples for something like three decades, I think. There must be something to doing it that way.
If a DJ involves tone, you can put that in your description on the worksheet. Some of the DJs that Prisca and I have noted for each other have been nonverbal.
Remember the goal here is not to make her account for every DJ but to help her learn to protect you by not having them.
Often times DJ's involve tone and are hard to recognize. Many times I recognize the obvious ones, but sometimes the not so obvious ones take a bit longer.
All the more reason to start using the forms instead of talking about DJs on the spot.
It's a lot easier to be respectful and control your emotions using the forms, too -- you can edit yourself 3 or 4 times if you need to before showing your spouse what you wrote.
Don't discuss the forms. Don't argue about what is written, about whether or not they are REALLY DJs or how it was all just a misunderstanding. You respectfully write down what she said, how she said it, and how you felt. Do so with the mindset of helping her take care of you, NOT with the mindset of showing her how wrong she is.
Allow her to do the same.
Ok just apologized for the DJ and told her I really want to hang out with her tonight. Not sure what yet I'd like to do to make up for it, but I'll do that as well, just need a bit more time to plan while at the office.
Great, you are moving in the right direction! Most women like for their husbands to take the initiative and plan something SPECIFIC and make preparations themselves, so keep that in mind.
I'm an emotional person and I feel like my wife knows how to push my buttons at will. I hate that about me.
That's one of the things that is going to change if you hang around here long enough AND IF you keep doing the work that is involved. The relaxation will help. Recognizing that you alone are responsible for deciding to have your own AOs, DJs, and SDs is going to help even more. This is the single biggest factor in overcoming this.
I have been taking deep breath's at times, but that typically only gets me through the first few.
Be proactive: practice relaxing when nothing's wrong.
Deep breaths are good, but add relaxing your muscles as well. From toe to scalp.
As the day progresses and I'm feeling wronged or neglected, it becomes harder and harder for me to control my emotions.
What you are actually doing is feeding your emotions by dwelling on what's wrong in your frustration. You make the frustration a habit and you entrench habits of response that are not good for your marriage.
I suggest you dwell instead on the plan from this program: eliminating DJs and other abusive love busters entirely, never giving yourself any slack for committing one, always recognizing that no matter what your wife does you do not have to respond with demands, disrespect, or anger. Dwell on the fact that you probably underestimate the seriousness of your own demands, disrespect, and anger, and that once they are eliminated your marriage will probably get a lot better.
I am working on that. I listen to MB Radio every day including a rebroadcast of Friday's show on the way to work.
Keep it up! Harley's advice always seems to be timely for me.
Don't forget you can send him and Joyce a question to answer on the air. They send you a free book, too. One of the long-timers here brags that she built her whole Marriage Builders library out of free books from asking questions on the radio show.
If you are ok taking the time with me, I'm trying to get a grasp of what is a LB as well as what my EN's are. I am having a hard time getting in touch with what my feelings represent. I know when I feel bad, but I frequently don't know why. I have a problem with DJs, SDs, and AOs. I can recognize them and I'm trying really hard to eliminate them, but there are other things that I think I need or want from my wife but I'm just not sure.
Independent Behavior/Affection: I know this has both LBs and ENs, but they are intertwined and I don't yet know how to separate them. My wife is a person that is always moving. She's very active and has a lot of "hobbies" that she enjoys doing and has a ton of friends. That way this is all tied into affection is because I still have feelings of neglect that frequently are felt when my wife is doing all of her many things. To her credit she has done a much better job in returning my phone calls, texts, emails not so much. I used to think she didn't return them because she wasn't interested in me. I think there is a little bit of that, but more so it is because she is busy with kids, friends, hobbies, etc. To me it doesn't matter if she is busy, all I feel is that she just doesn't have a desire nor the time. I feel like I'm "fit in" to my wife's schedule and that is not a good feeling to have. I love affection. I love to give and receive affection. I can think of 7-8 things yesterday that involved my expressing my affection for my wife. The opposite is not true however. I don't say this to "keep score", I say this because there is a whole inside of me that feels hurt that my wife doesn't "want" to show me much affection, and also that doesn't receive affection from me with enthusiasm I guess? I'm not sure what I mean exactly, but from my perspective, when I show my wife affection she seems indifferent to it. Its like I could be rubbing her shoulders or not rubbing her shoulders and she's totally fine either way. I'm not sure what this means, while I feel this way about it, but I feel compelled to figure it out because its driving me crazy.
SF: I think I've tip toed around this subject with my wife. Truth is I want sex all of the time. I think about it a lot and I don't think I've really every gotten my "fill" of it from my wife with the exception of when we were dating. I'll be honest, I'm lacking confidence in asking for fear of rejection I suppose. I think about being with my wife during the day and often at night before we go to bed. In other words, I'm very much into her physically and I know that I often feel better about our relationship when regular sex is there. I guess I feel selfish for asking her for it? I think part of me wants her to want it, which is just like the affection thing. I've mentioned a few times about maybe having sex twice a week or something, but I still feel like this isn't really in my hands at all and I'm at her mercy 99% of the time. I'd love some perspective on the subject.
Admiration/DJs: Up to this point I've never had this on my list of important EN's. I'm starting to rethink that. I feel that my wife focuses on the things I'm not good at rather than the things I am good at. I suppose this is human nature. I've often felt that although my wife doesn't add it to the end of a sentence, that her tone reflects a "stupid" or "dummy" when it relates to certain things. For example she might say, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom." The statement itself is perfectly fine, but the tone means you could rephrase it to, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom, dummmy!" She'll slip in a "I'm proud of you for working so hard, being a great businessman," or similar but not very often. I'm starting to think I want to be admired and if I was admired by my wife I might have more confidence in a lot of parts in our marriage?
"The opposite is not true however. I don't say this to "keep score", I say this because there is a whole inside of me that feels hurt that my wife doesn't "want" to show me much affection, and also that doesn't receive affection from me with enthusiasm I guess? I'm not sure what I mean exactly, but from my perspective, when I show my wife affection she seems indifferent to it. Its like I could be rubbing her shoulders or not rubbing her shoulders and she's totally fine either way. I'm not sure what this means, while I feel this way about it, but I feel compelled to figure it out because its driving me crazy."
Maybe you still haven't it on the things she likes? You still seem to be judging a lot based on what you like and expect. For example - my partner likes to be lightly stroked (like caressed on the arm) ( He tells me he likes it). I don't like that most of the time - I prefer a much firmer touch. The light stroking is actually irritating to me, so I need to remind him to apply more pressure when he forgets (as he does often because we all tend to do what we like). If he were going to judge my worthiness based on my reaction to what he likes we would be in constant conflict.
"The opposite is not true however. I don't say this to "keep score", I say this because there is a whole inside of me that feels hurt that my wife doesn't "want" to show me much affection, and also that doesn't receive affection from me with enthusiasm I guess? I'm not sure what I mean exactly, but from my perspective, when I show my wife affection she seems indifferent to it. Its like I could be rubbing her shoulders or not rubbing her shoulders and she's totally fine either way. I'm not sure what this means, while I feel this way about it, but I feel compelled to figure it out because its driving me crazy."
Maybe you still haven't it on the things she likes? You still seem to be judging a lot based on what you like and expect. For example - my partner likes to be lightly stroked (like caressed on the arm) ( He tells me he likes it). I don't like that most of the time - I prefer a much firmer touch. The light stroking is actually irritating to me, so I need to remind him to apply more pressure when he forgets (as he does often because we all tend to do what we like). If he were going to judge my worthiness based on my reaction to what he likes we would be in constant conflict.
I can appreciate that line of thinking. Part of my frustration is just no knowing what my wife wants or doesn't want, likes or dislikes. I'm glad you and your spouse know how each other likes to be touched. For us it seems that I like to be touched but my wife doesn't or is at least doesn't care either way. I sent her a long email on Friday asking about a few of these things and expressed to her that I "want to learn how to float your boat." I hope to hear back from her soon on the subject as I'm sure it will be enlightening.
If you are ok taking the time with me, I'm trying to get a grasp of what is a LB as well as what my EN's are. I am having a hard time getting in touch with what my feelings represent. I know when I feel bad, but I frequently don't know why. I have a problem with DJs, SDs, and AOs. I can recognize them and I'm trying really hard to eliminate them, but there are other things that I think I need or want from my wife but I'm just not sure.
Independent Behavior/Affection: I know this has both LBs and ENs, but they are intertwined and I don't yet know how to separate them. My wife is a person that is always moving. She's very active and has a lot of "hobbies" that she enjoys doing and has a ton of friends. That way this is all tied into affection is because I still have feelings of neglect that frequently are felt when my wife is doing all of her many things. To her credit she has done a much better job in returning my phone calls, texts, emails not so much. I used to think she didn't return them because she wasn't interested in me. I think there is a little bit of that, but more so it is because she is busy with kids, friends, hobbies, etc. To me it doesn't matter if she is busy, all I feel is that she just doesn't have a desire nor the time. I feel like I'm "fit in" to my wife's schedule and that is not a good feeling to have. I love affection. I love to give and receive affection. I can think of 7-8 things yesterday that involved my expressing my affection for my wife. The opposite is not true however. I don't say this to "keep score", I say this because there is a whole inside of me that feels hurt that my wife doesn't "want" to show me much affection, and also that doesn't receive affection from me with enthusiasm I guess? I'm not sure what I mean exactly, but from my perspective, when I show my wife affection she seems indifferent to it. Its like I could be rubbing her shoulders or not rubbing her shoulders and she's totally fine either way. I'm not sure what this means, while I feel this way about it, but I feel compelled to figure it out because its driving me crazy.
SF: I think I've tip toed around this subject with my wife. Truth is I want sex all of the time. I think about it a lot and I don't think I've really every gotten my "fill" of it from my wife with the exception of when we were dating. I'll be honest, I'm lacking confidence in asking for fear of rejection I suppose. I think about being with my wife during the day and often at night before we go to bed. In other words, I'm very much into her physically and I know that I often feel better about our relationship when regular sex is there. I guess I feel selfish for asking her for it? I think part of me wants her to want it, which is just like the affection thing. I've mentioned a few times about maybe having sex twice a week or something, but I still feel like this isn't really in my hands at all and I'm at her mercy 99% of the time. I'd love some perspective on the subject.
Admiration/DJs: Up to this point I've never had this on my list of important EN's. I'm starting to rethink that. I feel that my wife focuses on the things I'm not good at rather than the things I am good at. I suppose this is human nature. I've often felt that although my wife doesn't add it to the end of a sentence, that her tone reflects a "stupid" or "dummy" when it relates to certain things. For example she might say, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom." The statement itself is perfectly fine, but the tone means you could rephrase it to, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom, dummmy!" She'll slip in a "I'm proud of you for working so hard, being a great businessman," or similar but not very often. I'm starting to think I want to be admired and if I was admired by my wife I might have more confidence in a lot of parts in our marriage?
Hill, one or two problems at a time, please! The path to resolving all of this is here on the Marriage Builders plan, but the first step is eliminating control and abusive behavior from the marriage. Your wife will probably feel a lot better about trying to meet your emotional needs when you get passed this obstacle; right now I will bet that since she was just lately heard saying "Marriage Builders doesn't work" that she doesn't want to discuss any of this.
The way to discuss all of the above is going to be as a REQUEST and with NEGOTIATION. But discussing it now, before eliminating your own abusive behaviors, translates emotionally for her as "I will stop abusing you when you start doing these things for me."
To make one point perfectly clear: women feel a LOT better about sex when they are in a good romantic relationship with their lover. That relationship is precluded when love busters are sitting around in the recent past, as they are today. You would be in a much better spot right now if you had dealt with her DJs calmly and had not replied with DJs of your own. That is a difference she will notice immediately!
If you are ok taking the time with me, I'm trying to get a grasp of what is a LB as well as what my EN's are. I am having a hard time getting in touch with what my feelings represent. I know when I feel bad, but I frequently don't know why. I have a problem with DJs, SDs, and AOs. I can recognize them and I'm trying really hard to eliminate them, but there are other things that I think I need or want from my wife but I'm just not sure.
Independent Behavior/Affection: I know this has both LBs and ENs, but they are intertwined and I don't yet know how to separate them. My wife is a person that is always moving. She's very active and has a lot of "hobbies" that she enjoys doing and has a ton of friends. That way this is all tied into affection is because I still have feelings of neglect that frequently are felt when my wife is doing all of her many things. To her credit she has done a much better job in returning my phone calls, texts, emails not so much. I used to think she didn't return them because she wasn't interested in me. I think there is a little bit of that, but more so it is because she is busy with kids, friends, hobbies, etc. To me it doesn't matter if she is busy, all I feel is that she just doesn't have a desire nor the time. I feel like I'm "fit in" to my wife's schedule and that is not a good feeling to have. I love affection. I love to give and receive affection. I can think of 7-8 things yesterday that involved my expressing my affection for my wife. The opposite is not true however. I don't say this to "keep score", I say this because there is a whole inside of me that feels hurt that my wife doesn't "want" to show me much affection, and also that doesn't receive affection from me with enthusiasm I guess? I'm not sure what I mean exactly, but from my perspective, when I show my wife affection she seems indifferent to it. Its like I could be rubbing her shoulders or not rubbing her shoulders and she's totally fine either way. I'm not sure what this means, while I feel this way about it, but I feel compelled to figure it out because its driving me crazy.
SF: I think I've tip toed around this subject with my wife. Truth is I want sex all of the time. I think about it a lot and I don't think I've really every gotten my "fill" of it from my wife with the exception of when we were dating. I'll be honest, I'm lacking confidence in asking for fear of rejection I suppose. I think about being with my wife during the day and often at night before we go to bed. In other words, I'm very much into her physically and I know that I often feel better about our relationship when regular sex is there. I guess I feel selfish for asking her for it? I think part of me wants her to want it, which is just like the affection thing. I've mentioned a few times about maybe having sex twice a week or something, but I still feel like this isn't really in my hands at all and I'm at her mercy 99% of the time. I'd love some perspective on the subject.
Admiration/DJs: Up to this point I've never had this on my list of important EN's. I'm starting to rethink that. I feel that my wife focuses on the things I'm not good at rather than the things I am good at. I suppose this is human nature. I've often felt that although my wife doesn't add it to the end of a sentence, that her tone reflects a "stupid" or "dummy" when it relates to certain things. For example she might say, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom." The statement itself is perfectly fine, but the tone means you could rephrase it to, "Oh well I wanted for you to drill holes on the back of those flower pots, not the bottom, dummmy!" She'll slip in a "I'm proud of you for working so hard, being a great businessman," or similar but not very often. I'm starting to think I want to be admired and if I was admired by my wife I might have more confidence in a lot of parts in our marriage?
Hill, one or two problems at a time, please! The path to resolving all of this is here on the Marriage Builders plan, but the first step is eliminating control and abusive behavior from the marriage. Your wife will probably feel a lot better about trying to meet your emotional needs when you get passed this obstacle; right now I will bet that since she was just lately heard saying "Marriage Builders doesn't work" that she doesn't want to discuss any of this.
The way to discuss all of the above is going to be as a REQUEST and with NEGOTIATION. But discussing it now, before eliminating your own abusive behaviors, translates emotionally for her as "I will stop abusing you when you start doing these things for me."
To make one point perfectly clear: women feel a LOT better about sex when they are in a good romantic relationship with their lover. That relationship is precluded when love busters are sitting around in the recent past, as they are today. You would be in a much better spot right now if you had dealt with her DJs calmly and had not replied with DJs of your own. That is a difference she will notice immediately!
I know that I feel the path to a Love-Filled marriage is hear on MB, I can't speak for my wife. If I may go over something because it might enlighten you to how things occur or don't occur and how I react to them. I almost never "act" upon things with my wife, I "react" instead. Maybe this is the crux of the problem. I "react" to a DJ by her towards me and if I'm on my game I'll response politely even if it hurts me. I'll "react" to feeling neglected. I "react" to her mood(when she is grumpy). I "react" to what she says or her facial expression if I forget something(This happened this morning once and yesterday.) I "react" to me sending her an important email or text and not getting a response. I "react" to pretty much everything which is probably one reason I feel insecure, and completely without control in this marriage. The insecurity causes me to walk on egg shells and second guess everything I say to her. Like I said I'm just plain scared to mess up.
Here is an example. My wife told me earlier in the day that her folks would be out of town this morning. I heard it and made a mental note. So this morning she thought it would be good if I went to work(I was gonna stay home and help her since she tweaked her back). We were discussing how to pick up one of the kids, and I said just brainstorming, "Well can your Dad pick her up?" I realized as soon as I said it that it wasn't possible, but before I had a chance, she said in a tone that I can't convey but that I know to have the "dummy" attached to it, "Hill I told you yesterday they were gonna be gone..." So I immediate said sorry 8 times because I know she doesn't like it when I forget things. So what do I do? I "react" by going into "egg shell" mode. She doesn't like when I do that either but yet when she is irritated at me I get put in a position that I believe to be impossible to navigate. Once we are in this "stage" inevitably things fall apart. I really wished my wife were a little easier on me and more tolerant of annoying habits or things that irritate her because as soon as she reaches that point I feel she remains resentful and make me "pay" by a series of DJ's throughout the day. I forgot something yesterday morning as well and I believe was made to pay all day for my mistake. I feel like she is my boss honestly right now and even though I aim to please her, its never good enough. Feeling pretty discouraged right now, need to rally though before I get home tonight.
Hey Hill .. I see your having a not so good day. Just focus on your response and make sure your doing YOUR best to avoid the Djs and AOs and SD's.
Did you watch those vids i posted a few pages back? I also mentioned them to your wife in her thread. They are very uplifting and informational.
Hang in there Hill .. you seem to be moving into the "down" side of your cycle ... recognize it and move positive memories of you and your wife into the for front of your memory while you make an effort to diffuse your negative feelings. Your both still learning ... so do not be too hard on yourselves.
MNG
Where is your Love Buster plan for DJs, Hilltopper? This is the reason you made it ... review it, and do not allow yourself an excuse to slide.
It is not your wife's fault that you "react." Use your plan. Stop reacting.
A reminder:
Today is a new day. Start fresh. Wipe the slate clean -- don't dwell on the mistakes of yesterday! -- and show your husband that you will care for him.
The Second Enemy of Good Conversation is dwelling on mistakes, past or present.
One of our important emotional needs is admiration. So whenever you remind your wife of achievements of her past or present, you deposit love units because she needs to be admired.
But when you remind her of her failures, you do the opposite. You undermine her confidence and self-esteem, and withdraw love units.
Criticism is painful in marriage because we need admiration so much. We want our spouses to be the most encouraging person we know, one who constantly reminds us of our strengths. We certainly don't want to be discouraged by being reminded of our weaknesses, particularly if it comes from our spouse.
In an intimate relationship we give the keys to our inner self to someone else so that person can be in a position to meet our emotional needs. Intimacy magnifies the pleasure we receive when our needs are met. But it also makes us vulnerable. The pain of criticism is magnified in an intimate relationship. Unprotected, we expose the china closet of our feelings. If the person is critical of us, they are like the proverbial "bull in a china closet." One romp through our inner self and we are not so quick to invite the bull back again.
Criticism now and then is bad enough, but spouses often get into the habit of dwelling on mistakes. These mistakes are mentioned repeatedly in an effort to make sure that the mistake is understood and corrected. But that's not how mistakes are understood or corrected. All this does is magnify the pain until conversation is too unpleasant to continue. Then hope of respectful negotiation is lost.
In your letter, you say that you and your spouse say the same things again and again. You may be referring to this enemy, dwelling on past mistakes. You may find yourselves repeating these criticisms because this enemy dominates your conversation. If that's the case, see it for the enemy it is. As long as you tolerate dwelling on mistakes, you cannot expect to meet each other's needs for conversation. You may withdraw so many love units that it ruins your love for each other.
Read the entire article
here.
Hey Hill .. I see your having a not so good day. Just focus on your response and make sure your doing YOUR best to avoid the Djs and AOs and SD's.
Did you watch those vids i posted a few pages back? I also mentioned them to your wife in her thread. They are very uplifting and informational.
Hang in there Hill .. you seem to be moving into the "down" side of your cycle ... recognize it and move positive memories of you and your wife into the for front of your memory while you make an effort to diffuse your negative feelings. Your both still learning ... so do not be too hard on yourselves.
MNG
My wife has the videos I believe, for me they were removed before they got modded, but thank you!
Where is your Love Buster plan for DJs, Hilltopper? This is the reason you made it ... review it, and do not allow yourself an excuse to slide.
It is not your wife's fault that you "react." Use your plan. Stop reacting.
Yes, review that plan. Find out if this round of DJs from you are caused by you not keeping to your plan, or if this round of DJs from you are caused by scenarios that your plan doesn't cover. Then you will need to either extend your plan, or go back to following it.
Where is your Love Buster plan for DJs, Hilltopper? This is the reason you made it ... review it, and do not allow yourself an excuse to slide.
It is not your wife's fault that you "react." Use your plan. Stop reacting.
Yes, review that plan. Find out if this round of DJs from you are caused by you not keeping to your plan, or if this round of DJs from you are caused by scenarios that your plan doesn't cover. Then you will need to either extend your plan, or go back to following it.
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Hill this is to be expected. Reread my beginning post to marks. This is temporary, just a point in time. You can line up your actions and values, like marks described, find your peace. Everyone is safe at home. Google "be the lighthouse marriage builders ark". It's not the same situation, but I hope you will get some peace from the parts that apply. Hang in there, you can do this.
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Not this time, you can go approach her. She can play the game all she wants, she hurts me, quite literally 50% of the things she says are DJ's. No man on earth could take that. She has done silent treatment, then denied it. She told me she only hurts me and makes me feel bad, then "only a little bit." Something is wrong here, I'm not so stubborn that I'm willing to prove a point when the consequences are divorce. I'll tell you what, my dear wife is man. My wife abuses me so much that I can hardly breathe. Deny, deny, deny no matter what. Her reply to an "I would appreciate statement" is a DJ. The only thing I can do is not speak to the woman because she can look at me with a straight face, deny everything, and commit a DJ while doing so! I appreciate all that you are doing, but I need to speak with Steve, no offense.
Some reading material for you, maybe to look over tomorrow:
*
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.htmlYour wife is in withdrawal. The reason she is in withdrawal is your love busters.
Rather than doing much reading here now, though, I have the following suggestions:
* Relax and calm down
* Apologize again to your wife. There was no excuse for getting disrespectful and hot with her, even if she is not meeting your emotional needs and even if you are scared that this is somehow not going to work.
* Invite your wife to do something fun with you. If she accepts, spend the time talking about NON-relationship issues that are light and pleasant and enjoyable for her, encouraging her to communicate with you.
* If she declines the invitation, pick another emotional need and try to meet it. Domestic support, maybe? Are there dishes in the kitchen you could wash or something? Do something nice with the kids for family commitment?
* Try again on meeting those needs tomorrow.
Don't forget that rule number one for you is to calm down. Can you stay calm while she is in withdrawal and feeling negative over the events of the day?
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Not this time, you can go approach her.
She can play the game all she wants, she hurts me, quite literally
50% of the things she says are DJ's. No man on earth could take that.
She has done silent treatment, then denied it. She told me she only hurts me and makes me feel bad, then "only a little bit." Something is wrong here, I'm not so stubborn that I'm willing to prove a point when the consequences are divorce. I'll tell you what, my dear wife is man. My wife abuses me so much that I can hardly breathe.
Deny, deny, deny no matter what. Her reply to an "I would appreciate statement" is a DJ. The only thing I can do is not speak to the woman because she can look at me with a straight face, deny everything, and commit a DJ while doing so! I appreciate all that you are doing, but I need to speak with Steve, no offense.
I agree, friend, you do need to speak to Steve, and I encourage you to do that at the first available opportunity.
Everything you said above is riddled with disrespectful judgments toward your wife.
The reason it's not working is your disrespectful judgments. I wouldn't expect your marriage to improve much until you have made some serious progress towards eliminating them.
She can play the game all she wants, she hurts me, quite literally 50% of the things she says are DJ's. No man on earth could take that.
You know, Hill, this website specializes in infidelity. Many, many of the people here reading your post have been through the trauma of their spouses having an affair. Many others have been through the trauma of physical abuse. Since you aren't going through either of those, and since many here have been through those, taken it, survived, and recovered a healthy and thriving marriage on the other side, you might want to quit trying to convince yourself that you can't take this.
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Not this time, you can go approach her.
Wow. So are you saying now that the abuse from you was acceptable?
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Not this time, you can go approach her.
What would you like me to approach her and ask her to do, exactly? Are you wanting me to approach her with a request to meet your emotional needs even in the face of abuse?
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
It will become less common, but for now, you need to do damage control for the damage your love busters have caused. She did not cause them; you did.
Telling her you feel you were wrong to treat her this way might be a good first step.
Not this time, you can go approach her.
She can play the game all she wants, she hurts me, quite literally
50% of the things she says are DJ's. No man on earth could take that.
She has done silent treatment, then denied it. She told me she only hurts me and makes me feel bad, then "only a little bit." Something is wrong here, I'm not so stubborn that I'm willing to prove a point when the consequences are divorce. I'll tell you what, my dear wife is man. My wife abuses me so much that I can hardly breathe.
Deny, deny, deny no matter what. Her reply to an "I would appreciate statement" is a DJ. The only thing I can do is not speak to the woman because she can look at me with a straight face, deny everything, and commit a DJ while doing so! I appreciate all that you are doing, but I need to speak with Steve, no offense.
I agree, friend, you do need to speak to Steve, and I encourage you to do that at the first available opportunity.
Everything you said above is riddled with disrespectful judgments toward your wife.
The reason it's not working is your disrespectful judgments. I wouldn't expect your marriage to improve much until you have made some serious progress towards eliminating them.
Is it also not working because she abuses me? By the way you phrased your question I'd say your answer is no but I'll let you answer that.
Is it also not working because she abuses me?
Nothing justifies abuse.
So, would you like this situation to get better? If you want to follow the Marriage Builders plan for improving the situation, then you will need to adopt a policy of eliminating abuse from yourself for any reason.
If you want to follow some other plan, be my guest. But if you want to follow the plan that works, you are going to need to do some serious hard work here and decide that you will never be disrespectful toward your wife again, ever, even if she fails and even if she is abusive toward you.
Her abuse does not cause you to abuse her. She is not causing you to act this way. You are still on the same 2-3 day cycle where things go well for a couple of days and then when your needs go unmet you become demanding, disrespectful, and angry.
Would you like to see Grace get really enthusiastic about your marriage and this program, really quickly? Show her a dramatic change that she can't miss: show her a Hilltopper who does not respond with disrespect even when HE is dissed.
You have to avoid fights at all costs. You guys are fighting now and you have got to pull out of it. You are going to have to get rid of the disrespectful attitude.
Put away the nuclear weapons. All they are getting you is mutually assured destruction.
You can be the lighthouse or the reef that she wrecks her ship on. Personally I would rather be the leader by good example than the one that gets down in the mud and slugs it out. Remember, this is your wife, the mother of your children, the woman you swore to look after and protect.
I think the LB and DJ notebook or worksheets can be a real ally to you. She says a DJ and rather than respond you say "I'll get back to you on that". Go directly to your notebook and write up the he said/she said, along with any emotions you felt. Then shelve it until the end of the week.
I have done this myself and it does really help. By the time you get to the end of the week and share your perceived DJs, much of the heat of the emotion will be gone, and you can deal with them logically.
You can be the lighthouse or the reef that she wrecks her ship on. Personally I would rather be the leader by good example than the one that gets down in the mud and slugs it out. Remember, this is your wife, the mother of your children, the woman you swore to look after and protect.
I think the LB and DJ notebook or worksheets can be a real ally to you. She says a DJ and rather than respond you say "I'll get back to you on that". Go directly to your notebook and write up the he said/she said, along with any emotions you felt. Then shelve it until the end of the week.
I have done this myself and it does really help. By the time you get to the end of the week and share your perceived DJs, much of the heat of the emotion will be gone, and you can deal with them logically.
We did this about a month ago. We did it with little notes. It was 8-0 Grace(her DJs to me) by 10am, my wife got pissed about it and we never did it again. To her credit, although she said she went to bed because she was tired, she was actually up there reading and sent me a quote from MB, so that is good. I asked her to come down and hang out but she was too tired which is fine. I thought I'd ask and wish she did, so I'll ask tomorrow.
Yeah, but when did you share your list of DJ's at the end of the day, or at the end of the week? It is important to wait until the end of the week to share them.
I've also noticed with my DH that DJs tend to come in spurts, like half a dozen in an hour and then maybe no more until the next day or two. If you say she had 8 by 10 am, I would count that as a spurt.
Another thing that keeping track of these does is that you can see a pattern in them. At the end of the week you look at what parts of your relationship she is having DJs about. These will lead you to see what things she perceives as a problem.
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
I'll tell you why: she is protecting herself. Her Taker is coming out to protect her. When she withdraws from you it is because she cannot trust that you will keep her safe and so her Taker does what it needs to protect her.
Is it fair? Is it right? Maybe not.
Is it possible that some of her suffering is self inflicted? Probably.
But this is your wife, the mother of your children, the woman you love. And she is hurting. Maybe her silent-treatment has an element of punishment in it, a basis in a desire to hurt you... now why would she want to do that?
Because she feels you hurt her.
How does this cycle usually work for you guys? She does the silent treatment, you feel punished so you reciprocate, punishing her, confirming to her that she was right in withdrawing from and punishing you. And that process has landed you here.
So what if you chose a different cycle? What if you chose to act from love and compassion for your wife.
See when your wife's Taker comes out it is a GOOD thing, now what that Taker does may be hurtful and harmful, but the Taker is looking out for your wife's best interest... shouldn't that be your job? If her Taker is coming out then that means there is something your Giver should be doing.
Does it mean you give in to her abusive behavior? No. But that doesn't mean you can't act from love and compassion. Apologizing never hurt anyone. Approaching her and asking if she would share with you why she has shut down and actively listening from a place of compassion will definitely break the negative cycle you are in. Validating her feelings (not her actions in withdrawing, but her feelings that caused that action) will likely draw her out of withdrawal if practiced over time.
Half of your problem right now isn't your wife. It isn't what she is doing or not doing it isn't her DJs or silent treatment.
Half of your problem right now is: YOU. Your attitude.
Not this time, you can go approach her. She can play the game all she wants,
I can ASSURE you she isn't playing a game. It isn't silly to her. She is in protect mode and that is dead serious. What is she protecting herself from? YOU. By saying this you show your morally superior attitude towards your wife: you're serious about fixing your marriage but she's just 'playing games'. You're the wrongfully injured party here and she's 'playing games'.
You both have a lot of work to do. Sounds like you both fell short today, but until you value your wife's efforts as equal to your own you will never be able to value HER equally to yourself... and a marriage cannot thrive unless it is one of equals.
she hurts me, quite literally 50% of the things she says are DJ's.
Yeah and I'm sure you're all flowers and rainbows. You BOTH have dug this hole you're in. Pointing fingers at her ain't gonna get you out... only digging will.
No man on earth could take that.
See, what you are doing here is making it ok for you to abuse and love-bust your wife and then not have to apologize for it. Somehow her actions are so horrible that your response is justified.
It isn't.
If it's that horrible, leave. If not, then man up and accept that there are no excuses for the way you are treating her. NONE.
She hurts you. That doesn't make it ok for you to hurt her. That doesn't mean you are somehow absolved of the obligation to apologize... unless of course you want an angry, withdrawn wife to share the rest of your life with.
What's more important to you: being right; being self-justified; playing the martyred victim of your wife's vicious, malicious ways? Or having a loving, caring, romantic relationship with your wife?
Because your attitude is gonna get you one of those two. Your refusal to go to her build the wall between you even higher - apologizing and going to her tears it down.
Yeah it feels safer right now with that wall a little higher... but it's lonely over there isn't it?
She has done silent treatment, then denied it. She told me she only hurts me and makes me feel bad, then "only a little bit."
Gonna pair that with:
We did this about a month ago. We did it with little notes. It was 8-0 Grace(her DJs to me) by 10am, my wife got pissed about it and we never did it again.
What you and your wife are doing is HARD. I think one of the hardest moments in my marriage was the day I realized how much I was DJing my husband and the toll it was taking on my marriage. A big old mirror was held up to my face and I saw the ugliness within myself.
It doesn't make it easy to go to bed at night.
Part of you wants to smash that mirror and say it isn't true. Part of you wants to run away rather than acknowledge how much pain and suffering you have caused.
It's embarrassing, humiliating, and painful when you see how badly you are messing up... what's even harder is when you realize how ingrained the habits are within yourself. You feel like it's hopeless. This is the way you think, the way you are... it seems impossible to change. Every little mistake you make you feel like a failure - you feel like you will never be able to change. You feel like you are doomed to a misery of your own making because you can't seem to make any progress.
And you wonder why your wife lashes out?
She's bailing with all her might, and you just keep pointing out every new leak as it appears.
See what you described yourself as doing is NOT what was suggested. Sounds like you gave her a little note every time you heard a DJ. What was suggested was that you wait until the end of the week when you've gained some emotional distance from the DJs and review them. This way you can look at the big picture, this way you can measure success in quantifiable ways by comparison to previous weeks. This way you can provide encouragement and loving support to your wife as she works to overcome this habit.
That isn't what you did.
Your wife was bailing out her boat, and while you pointed out each new leak she had to bail out, while she felt the water creeping up and the frustration sitting in, you were over sitting in your pristine little boat with your nice little score of 0. Your wife was drowning, but you were patting yourself on the back over how much lower your score was than hers.
And you wonder why she never wanted to do it again?
She has a problem. She needs your help and support - not your ridicule and self-righteousness.
Yes, it is... but it isn't what you think it is.
I'm not so stubborn that I'm willing to prove a point when the consequences are divorce.
From where I am sitting, that is EXACTLY what it is you are doing. You've just put a nice, self-righteous, martyrs window dressing over it so you don't have to feel so bad about it, so you don't have to acknowledge it.
I'll tell you what, my dear wife is man.
This is so blatantly disrespectful and outrageous I want to just shake you.
Your wife is a woman who is TRYING. She is a woman who is hurting.
And this is how you think of her?
Could you be any more invalidating if you tried?
My wife abuses me so much that I can hardly breathe.
I am almost positive your wife feels the EXACT SAME WAY.
Think about that.
What you are feeling, your wife is too - and YOU are the cause.
So remind me again why you aren't making different choices? Because the attitude you're displaying here is EXACTLY what has created this atmosphere of mutual abuse... and you seem pretty comfortable with your current mindset.
Deny, deny, deny no matter what.
Easier to deny then work at what seems a hopeless effort for someone you don't really like much.
Her denial is self-protection. Remove from her the need for self-protection and you will likely never see the denial again.
Her reply to an "I would appreciate statement" is a DJ.
She sounds like she's tapped out. Her Taker is out in full force. Why is that?
The only thing I can do is not speak to the woman because she can look at me with a straight face, deny everything, and commit a DJ while doing so!
Yeah - its a habit she has developed to protect herself. It isn't a good one, but if you take the time to understand where she is coming from maybe you can see a way to keep her from having to resort to these tactics constantly.
I appreciate all that you are doing, but I need to speak with Steve, no offense.
Yeah, you do.
You have to avoid fights at all costs. You guys are fighting now and you have got to pull out of it. You are going to have to get rid of the disrespectful attitude.
Put away the nuclear weapons. All they are getting you is mutually assured destruction.
I'm not sure what I feel now, don't think it is love anymore at this point. I keep saying that I love my wife with all my heart but do I? I have feelings for her, I want to have sex with her. She is the mother of my kids but I don't know what I feel. I'm numb. She has many times said she is willing to move on. Maybe she is, I don't know, I thought she was just being spiteful. I want to feel and I'm trying so hard to feel anything, but most of all I feel that no matter how many days, weeks, months, or years I do the right thing that I'll never feel loved enough. Maybe I'm the cause of it all, in fact I feel by your feedback that I am. What changed and when? I mean we fought plenty over the years but for what? To get each our own way with things? I didn't say but I wanted to say that, "we both aren't really willing to do what we need to do to make each other happy because we really don't want to." I'm sick of doing things because I'm afraid. I don't want to stay with my wife simply because my parents or society or friends say you're supposed to remain married. At the same time how selfish am I or my wife for remaining married just because we think it is socially acceptable. She told me tonight that, "you deserve someone who treats you with affection and treats you with how you want to be treated because obviously I can't do that." What does that mean? I'll tell you it hurts something fierce. I've felt for a long time my wife doesn't love me, so much so I thought she was cheating on me. Do I want a great marriage? YES! Does she? I just don't know. I need to reset and make this right but I'm at a loss for how to do so. I want her to do so this time, is that wrong?
Wife is on couch giving me silent treatment. Very hard to deal with. Not sure what to do when she does this. Very, very common.
I'll tell you why: she is protecting herself. Her Taker is coming out to protect her. When she withdraws from you it is because she cannot trust that you will keep her safe and so her Taker does what it needs to protect her.
Is it fair? Is it right? Maybe not.
Is it possible that some of her suffering is self inflicted? Probably.
But this is your wife, the mother of your children, the woman you love. And she is hurting. Maybe her silent-treatment has an element of punishment in it, a basis in a desire to hurt you... now why would she want to do that?
Because she feels you hurt her.
How does this cycle usually work for you guys? She does the silent treatment, you feel punished so you reciprocate, punishing her, confirming to her that she was right in withdrawing from and punishing you. And that process has landed you here.
So what if you chose a different cycle? What if you chose to act from love and compassion for your wife.
See when your wife's Taker comes out it is a GOOD thing, now what that Taker does may be hurtful and harmful, but the Taker is looking out for your wife's best interest... shouldn't that be your job? If her Taker is coming out then that means there is something your Giver should be doing.
Does it mean you give in to her abusive behavior? No. But that doesn't mean you can't act from love and compassion. Apologizing never hurt anyone. Approaching her and asking if she would share with you why she has shut down and actively listening from a place of compassion will definitely break the negative cycle you are in. Validating her feelings (not her actions in withdrawing, but her feelings that caused that action) will likely draw her out of withdrawal if practiced over time.
Half of your problem right now isn't your wife. It isn't what she is doing or not doing it isn't her DJs or silent treatment.
Half of your problem right now is: YOU. Your attitude.
Not this time, you can go approach her. She can play the game all she wants,
I can ASSURE you she isn't playing a game. It isn't silly to her. She is in protect mode and that is dead serious. What is she protecting herself from? YOU. By saying this you show your morally superior attitude towards your wife: you're serious about fixing your marriage but she's just 'playing games'. You're the wrongfully injured party here and she's 'playing games'.
You both have a lot of work to do. Sounds like you both fell short today, but until you value your wife's efforts as equal to your own you will never be able to value HER equally to yourself... and a marriage cannot thrive unless it is one of equals.
she hurts me, quite literally 50% of the things she says are DJ's.
Yeah and I'm sure you're all flowers and rainbows. You BOTH have dug this hole you're in. Pointing fingers at her ain't gonna get you out... only digging will.
No man on earth could take that.
See, what you are doing here is making it ok for you to abuse and love-bust your wife and then not have to apologize for it. Somehow her actions are so horrible that your response is justified.
It isn't.
If it's that horrible, leave. If not, then man up and accept that there are no excuses for the way you are treating her. NONE.
She hurts you. That doesn't make it ok for you to hurt her. That doesn't mean you are somehow absolved of the obligation to apologize... unless of course you want an angry, withdrawn wife to share the rest of your life with.
What's more important to you: being right; being self-justified; playing the martyred victim of your wife's vicious, malicious ways? Or having a loving, caring, romantic relationship with your wife?
Because your attitude is gonna get you one of those two. Your refusal to go to her build the wall between you even higher - apologizing and going to her tears it down.
Yeah it feels safer right now with that wall a little higher... but it's lonely over there isn't it?
She has done silent treatment, then denied it. She told me she only hurts me and makes me feel bad, then "only a little bit."
Gonna pair that with:
We did this about a month ago. We did it with little notes. It was 8-0 Grace(her DJs to me) by 10am, my wife got pissed about it and we never did it again.
What you and your wife are doing is HARD. I think one of the hardest moments in my marriage was the day I realized how much I was DJing my husband and the toll it was taking on my marriage. A big old mirror was held up to my face and I saw the ugliness within myself.
It doesn't make it easy to go to bed at night.
Part of you wants to smash that mirror and say it isn't true. Part of you wants to run away rather than acknowledge how much pain and suffering you have caused.
It's embarrassing, humiliating, and painful when you see how badly you are messing up... what's even harder is when you realize how ingrained the habits are within yourself. You feel like it's hopeless. This is the way you think, the way you are... it seems impossible to change. Every little mistake you make you feel like a failure - you feel like you will never be able to change. You feel like you are doomed to a misery of your own making because you can't seem to make any progress.
And you wonder why your wife lashes out?
She's bailing with all her might, and you just keep pointing out every new leak as it appears.
See what you described yourself as doing is NOT what was suggested. Sounds like you gave her a little note every time you heard a DJ. What was suggested was that you wait until the end of the week when you've gained some emotional distance from the DJs and review them. This way you can look at the big picture, this way you can measure success in quantifiable ways by comparison to previous weeks. This way you can provide encouragement and loving support to your wife as she works to overcome this habit.
That isn't what you did.
Your wife was bailing out her boat, and while you pointed out each new leak she had to bail out, while she felt the water creeping up and the frustration sitting in, you were over sitting in your pristine little boat with your nice little score of 0. Your wife was drowning, but you were patting yourself on the back over how much lower your score was than hers.
And you wonder why she never wanted to do it again?
She has a problem. She needs your help and support - not your ridicule and self-righteousness.
Yes, it is... but it isn't what you think it is.
I'm not so stubborn that I'm willing to prove a point when the consequences are divorce.
From where I am sitting, that is EXACTLY what it is you are doing. You've just put a nice, self-righteous, martyrs window dressing over it so you don't have to feel so bad about it, so you don't have to acknowledge it.
I'll tell you what, my dear wife is man.
This is so blatantly disrespectful and outrageous I want to just shake you.
Your wife is a woman who is TRYING. She is a woman who is hurting.
And this is how you think of her?
Could you be any more invalidating if you tried?
My wife abuses me so much that I can hardly breathe.
I am almost positive your wife feels the EXACT SAME WAY.
Think about that.
What you are feeling, your wife is too - and YOU are the cause.
So remind me again why you aren't making different choices? Because the attitude you're displaying here is EXACTLY what has created this atmosphere of mutual abuse... and you seem pretty comfortable with your current mindset.
Deny, deny, deny no matter what.
Easier to deny then work at what seems a hopeless effort for someone you don't really like much.
Her denial is self-protection. Remove from her the need for self-protection and you will likely never see the denial again.
Her reply to an "I would appreciate statement" is a DJ.
She sounds like she's tapped out. Her Taker is out in full force. Why is that?
The only thing I can do is not speak to the woman because she can look at me with a straight face, deny everything, and commit a DJ while doing so!
Yeah - its a habit she has developed to protect herself. It isn't a good one, but if you take the time to understand where she is coming from maybe you can see a way to keep her from having to resort to these tactics constantly.
I appreciate all that you are doing, but I need to speak with Steve, no offense.
Yeah, you do.
This is quite possibly the greatest heart felt post I've ever read. Since I don't know how to respond to each and every comment you make let me do my usual non-grammatical run-on posts I usually make. I'd say I love you but I don't know you but this is so meaningful to me I thought I'd say it anyways!
I want to protect her so much. I'm so incapable of controlling my emotions and not lashing back out at her. She hurts me. She hurts me so much. YES, you understand me. I react to her treatment with punishment and it is wrong. I hate that about me. Why do I do it? I just don't know, but I will try to stop it forever.
Do I value my wife's effort equal to that of my own? No I don't right or wrong, ok so i know it is wrong.
I'm not free of fault at all. My wife does speak in DJs however, that is not in my imagination. I'm awful at bringing it out the right way. In fact I'll probably offend you but I feel as if my wife can't speak to me unless it is rude and disrespectful. I can't stop feeling that, it is real, but I am wrong for responding with equal DJs.
Honestly? I'm considering leaving. Do you think it is because I'm safe? I don't think it is but again I could be full of emotions and wrong. Yes something is very wrong. Did I cause it? I guess it doesn't matter, I need to fix it.
I have a hard time with the YOU in this. Am I taking it wrong?
When do I protect myself? Am I allowed? I feel wronged and want to make sure I'm not hurt again. When I give, give, give, and don't hurt or DJ, I get scared after a few days because she hurts me back anyways. I don't want to be hurt anymore. Thanks for this post, it was amazing and insightful.
I want to protect her so much. I'm so incapable of controlling my emotions and not lashing back out at her. She hurts me. She hurts me so much. YES, you understand me. I react to her treatment with punishment and it is wrong. I hate that about me. Why do I do it? I just don't know, but I will try to stop it forever.
I know - you are both trapped in a vicious cycle of hurt and rehurt, of punish and retaliation. I understand your pain, and it's ok to feel pain when the person you love punishes you. She DJs you. She does. It hurts.
You do it because it hurts. You do it because you want to protect yourself from the hurt. You do it because you think that if you punish her enough, she'll stop hurting you.
But that is never going to work. All it does is create more hurt.
You aren't incapable of holding back. You gave yourself permission to lash out at her, you can revoke that permission. Does that mean you will never DJ her again? Does that mean you will never hurt her again? Does that mean you will never seek to punish her again? Probably not.
But it means that each time you DO slip up you will be aware of it, you will seek to apologize and make up for it and you will emerge with a renewed determination to do better next time.
And slowly, over time, these destructive habits you have developed and even cultivated with dissipate... until to DJ your wife would be akin to hitting yourself in the head with a brick, you just wouldn't do it.
My wife does speak in DJs however, that is not in my imagination. I'm awful at bringing it out the right way. In fact I'll probably offend you but I feel as if my wife can't speak to me unless it is rude and disrespectful. I can't stop feeling that, it is real, but I am wrong for responding with equal DJs.
This - it probably seems like your wife love busts SO often that all her words are DJs. It's also probable that you are so used to being hurt, that even when you're wife ISN'T DJing you you feel hurt.
Yes, you are wrong in retaliating.
No you aren't wrong in feeling hurt.
Feelings are. There is no right or wrong to feelings. Do not be ashamed of your feelings and do not seek to change your wife's feelings. That is a fundamental element of respect. Respect for yourself and respect for your wife.
Actions are completely different. While your feelings may be justified, while they are valid, the ACTIONS those feelings spur can be absolutely wrong.
It is ok to be hurt. It is not ok to attempt to punish your wife because you are hurt.
Do I value my wife's effort equal to that of my own? No I don't right or wrong, ok so i know it is wrong.
So what are you going to do to change this view?
It comes down to a matter of Respect. It doesn't sound like you respect your wife very much. Perhaps a lot of that is a result of her own actions, however, she is your wife, she is the mother of your children, she is a human being, and as such she deserves a basic level of respect that you are not currently affording her.
Consider for a moment the idea that everything she does makes sense and is done for a reason, and that reason may not be based in malice towards you. Consider that she may be more motivated by the need for self-preservation than hilltoper-preservation. If forced to make a choice between her own well-being and that of your own she will chose hers, not because she actively wishes harm on you, but because she cannot trust that you won't harm her. So she will do whatever it takes to protect herself, even if it means hurting you. It isn't hurting you for the sake of hurting you, but protecting herself and you get hurt as a consequence... and while she isn't crazy about that idea it is more acceptable that laying down on the train tracks.
It isn't right what she is doing.
But seek to understand WHY it is she is doing it.
From that understanding will come respect and compassion.
It won't change the fact that she has hurt you, but maybe it will provide you with the strength to not retaliate. Perhaps it will give you the ability to act from love and compassion for her instead of seeking to punish. It may keep you from kicking her when she's already down, which is what your retaliation is.
Honestly? I'm considering leaving.
I hope you don't. I know you're probably feeling tapped out and exhausted. This is gruelling, and it always gets worse before it gets better, but it DOES get better. You're at that rough, adolescent stage. You know just enough to know things can be better, but you don't yet have the skills yet to make them so, and since progress can seem so slow as to be non-existant, you question your ability to even develop those skills. This BTW is what your wife was expressing when she said
"you deserve someone who treats you with affection and treats you with how you want to be treated because obviously I can't do that."
These feelings you are feeling - your wife is feeling them too.
Do you think it is because I'm safe? I don't think it is but again I could be full of emotions and wrong. Yes something is very wrong. Did I cause it? I guess it doesn't matter, I need to fix it.
No, doesn't sound like either of you are emotionally safe with the other. You caused at least half of it, but really focusing on blame is a distraction. Doesn't matter who started it, you both gotta fix it.
Pointing fingers, keeping tallys (like that 8-0 score) are distractions, they're hurtful and they keep you from seeing the progress you are making and solving the problems right in front of you.
I have a hard time with the YOU in this. Am I taking it wrong?
Of course you are. It is very hard to ACTUALLY look at what you are doing wrong. It is one thing to pay lip service to acknowledging your mistakes, but actually OWNING them is painful. It is hard. Since you got here you've admitted you've made mistakes, at least in words... but somewhere in the back of your mind you were comforted by the idea that as bad as your mistakes were, your wife's were just a little bit worse.
Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty. Now you're starting to see the REAL role you've played in getting here. Now is when you gotta look at that mirror and see what is really there: the ugly that is looking you in the face.
That feeling you had every time you read a YOU is the exact same feeling your wife had each time you wrote down her DJs and shoved them in her face.
But the only way we can fix this is if you actually OWN what it is you are doing wrong. Yeah, it is painful... but you gotta do it if you wanna get through the other side of this a better man, a better husband.
When do I protect myself? Am I allowed? I feel wronged and want to make sure I'm not hurt again. When I give, give, give, and don't hurt or DJ, I get scared after a few days because she hurts me back anyways. I don't want to be hurt anymore.
Yes, you should protect yourself. In fact you must protect yourself. But - you should protect yourself in ways that will not cause further damage. You shouldn't fall into retaliation. If your wife is hurting you, it is ok to remove yourself from her. But, let her know what you are doing, let her know where you are going and for how long, and then connect with her in a positive way when you return.
If you are giving and giving and giving, but not taking, there is something wrong. Listen to your Taker. Ignoring it will cause you to retaliate and punish. If you aren't asking from your wife for those things you need, you are setting yourselves up for a future hurt. So check in with your Taker frequently.
Also - you two have trained yourself to this cycle of hurt. It is going to take a while before you get out of it, and even longer before you stop waiting for it to come back.
The path from Withdrawal to Intimacy is through CONFLICT. You don't get there any other way. You gotta walk through the fire to come out purified.
It is going to hurt, it is going to be scary, and it is going to seem like the hardest thing you've ever done, but you will not get to intimacy unless you fight for it.
You can do it. I know you can.
As for the DJs - I do recommend keeping track of them, but review them once a week, after you've received some distance from them.
Hang in there Hill - it gets better.
Hilltopper ...
I like you ... you seem like a guy who desires nothing but the best for his family ...
but ...
KNOCK IT OFF!
You are not currently following the program. This program will not work unless you follow it.
You've got a wife who is on board and willing to give it a try ... for the moment. The only person who can't seem to see that is you.
You are going to find yourself in this same hellhole (or worse) a year from now unless you get yourself under control. The abuse and pity parties have GOT TO STOP.
Do I want a great marriage? YES! Does she? I just don't know. I need to reset and make this right but I'm at a loss for how to do so. I want her to do so this time, is that wrong?
My understanding is that she already told you she was sorry.
Are you hoping for a reset where you don't have to acknowledge that your love busters are wrong, too?
I gave you some reset instructions awhile back. I'll see if I can find them and repost them. I think following those instructions last time led you to a place where you were pretty happy and optimistic.
Reset instructions:
Just acted like a jerk. It wasn't really something my wife did that set me off, it is what she doesn't do. My taker wants his needs met, gets frustrated when they are not met and picks a fight
Okay, I've read the beginning, and I've glanced through the middle, but I want to go back to the beginning.
Basically, you were a jerk. The rest of it is why you think it was okay to be a jerk.
Here's the truth: it's never okay to be a jerk, for any reason. Even if your wife isn't meeting your needs, even if you're not sure things are working, even if she's being a jerk to you ... it's never okay to be a jerk. In fact, it's abusive.
No matter what you plan to do, no matter what you think is or isn't going to happen, you need to do something about the fact that you were a jerk.
Here is what I suggest for a START:
"I'm sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me. How can I make it up to you."
Put some space in between those sentences; those are bullet points; build around them.
You may not believe that meeting your wife's emotional needs will result in getting your needs met. You may be right, maybe not. But I will tell you one thing for certain: you using tools like disrespect and anger will absolutely ensure that your needs do not get met long time. If you ever get what you want that way, it will be short term, and it will generate so much resentment that you may never get them met again, and you may even cause an aversive reaction to be associated with meeting your needs.
This doesn't get better until you put the weapons down. (SDs, DJs, AOs) It will not get better. No matter what comes next in your plan, step number one needs to be to put those down. Otherwise all you are dealing with is mutually assured destruction.
Do I want a great marriage? YES! Does she? I just don't know. I need to reset and make this right but I'm at a loss for how to do so. I want her to do so this time, is that wrong?
Avoid fighting AT ALL COSTS means literally "at all costs."
Hill, you have a SERIOUS Disrespectful Judgment problem, and I doubt you are going to get much traction until you address it. It sounds like you've got a lot of energy to meet her emotional needs, but it sounds like you need some help developing some insight into what DJs you are committing and empathy into how that is making your wife feel.
I predict you'll be starting over, over and over again, until you get these DJs gone.
I can promise you, my friend, from my own personal experience, that you are massively UNDERESTIMATING the importance of this problem, and OVERESTIMATING the importance of your wife's apparent motivational problem. She is here. I promise you that if she is having motivational problems, we can help her with that, but I can also promise you that we cannot help her if you are not SERIOUSLY, DESPERATELY, INTENSELY motivated to fix this DJ problem. Can we trust that we will see you put all of the effort into that that you are expecting her to put into meeting your need for affection?
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in.
What came of this? This was May 3. Were you telling us the truth?
Hilltopper ...
I like you ... you seem like a guy who desires nothing but the best for his family ...
but ...
KNOCK IT OFF!
You are not currently following the program. This program will not work unless you follow it.
You've got a wife who is on board and willing to give it a try ... for the moment. The only person who can't seem to see that is you.
You are going to find yourself in this same hellhole (or worse) a year from now unless you get yourself under control. The abuse and pity parties have GOT TO STOP.
I'll be on the radio show today if you want to tune in about noon CST. That way you can hear the person who isn't working the program live. Yes you heard it here first folks, grab your popcorn and listen to Hilltopper try and convince Dr Harley and his wife that its not his fault and his wife is to blame!
Seriously I'd love for you all to listen and I'd like your feedback.
I have my workbook in front of me. I'll share a bit and maybe you can help me deal with some of the things I feel particularly how to communicate them to my wife. There is a couple of LBs and an EN.
Selfish Demands:
1. Much of the communication from my wife begins with, "I need", "Can you get me", or "Will you do this for me?" I feel an inequity because I ask for very little. For example today, I stayed home to work from home office. My wife asked me to take son to school even though she knows I should be working. I paused for a moment, then said, "I really need to be working." She began to tear up and I felt manipulated. I would love to get more ideas on how to say "no" to my wife without her getting angry or upset. I'd also like some advice on how to ask for things from my wife more without feel like I'm troubling her.
Disrespectful Judgements:
1. I feel bad when I express my feelings which is why I so frequently clam up. My attempts to express my feelings are almost always met with, "You just took it wrong" or "You just reading into things" or "That is not what I meant". This make me feel like not bringing up my feelings and that my wife doesn't believe they are valid. I like some ideas on how to express my feelings better or how to respond to my wife when she won't validate my feelings.
Affection:1. I have a strong need or desire to have physical contact with my wife. To be cared for and empathized with. I'd like for my wife to bring me soup when I'm sick, or show interest when I've had a bad day at the office. I'd like for her to sit next to me on the couch and put her hand on my leg. I'd like for her to hug me back when I hug her. I'd like to feel loved. I'd love to get some help in providing my wife feedback so that the affection she gives me because a habit.
Feelings follow actions. Instead of trying to control insecurities, I recommend trying to control what you do in response to insecure feelings.
I can get a 930 CST tomorrow with Steve but no word from my wife. I was thinking about talking to Steve on my own to work through my own issues, is anyone opposed to this?
Yes, this was a great idea! May 3.
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in.
What came of this? This was May 3. Were you telling us the truth?
Yes I was telling you the truth. My wife wasn't down with it so I didn't call them back. She wanted me to write into the radio show so I did which worked out for me. I told her last night that I needed to do this for me and she said ok.
I'd also like to publicly and openly apologize to my wife for neglecting her EN's all these years. I told her all of this this morning but I feel good about being honest here as well. I was selfish, didn't care about anything that was important to her, and repeatedly DJ'd and SD'd her over and over again. I don't blame her for not being into me and I am working on changing the man I've become. I'm not that man yet, but I know what he looks like and I like what I see. This man is thoughtful, respectful, and thinks of others before himself. He never attempts to gain at other's expense. He smiles, in fact smiles a lot.
He takes time out of his day to stop and smell the roses. He does things that make his wife happy without having to be asked. He takes initiative in planning fun activities with his wife, children, and friends. He researches and spends time on romancing his wife rather than picking up flowers as an afterthought at the grocery store. This guy is a stud, a true casanova and you all should be jealous of my wife for being able to own this dude when he becomes what he is aspiring and working on to be.
Hey, bring that man back!
Call Steve Harley or his father, Dr. Harley, and ask for some help becoming this man.
Tell them you have a problem with wanting to gain at the expense of your wife's feelings. Because you do.
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in.
What came of this? This was May 3. Were you telling us the truth?
Yes I was telling you the truth. My wife wasn't down with it so I didn't call them back. She wanted me to write into the radio show so I did which worked out for me.
And it took you two weeks to do it?
I told her last night that I needed to do this for me and she said ok.
Okay, so what exactly have you done at this point? Written the radio show? When? Have you received a response back?
Not a good night. We are scheduling with Steve Harley today, already sent requested dates in.
What came of this? This was May 3. Were you telling us the truth?
Yes I was telling you the truth. My wife wasn't down with it so I didn't call them back. She wanted me to write into the radio show so I did which worked out for me.
And it took you two weeks to do it?
I told her last night that I needed to do this for me and she said ok.
Okay, so what exactly have you done at this point? Written the radio show? When? Have you received a response back?
I wrote them last night, Joyce called me back. They'll be calling me in about 30 mins. Look man all I can tell you is my wife wasn't enthusiastic about me calling Steve so I didn't do it. I want to work with Steve alone for now to help me cope with things better. Despite all the info and workbooks, I still don't know how to respond to my wife.
Great! Dr. Bill Harley (that's Steve's father) can help you! I will be listening! If I can't hear it live I will pick it up as soon as it is available.
Hilltopper .. I too suggest you phone Steve. This "crazy cycle" has to stop. Who will be the one to stop?? The person who feels they are the most mature will be the one to stop.
**edit**
My wife used to say the same things "you should find someone who can treat you like you deserve" .. etc.. but ya know what?" WHen she said that .. she was really loking for reassurance that I was willing to keep working at it! .. I would replay "Honey, im NOT going anywhere .. no matter how much we fight .. I am going to find a way to make this work .. im going to learn and be the hubby you NEED me to be. EVEN if it takes me the rest of my life!"
You CAN do this Hill .. I have faith that you can. Sure it might take a while to relearn and break your old habits .. but stick with the program ... watch htose videos ... keep working at yourself ... and do NOT worry about your own EN's right now .. rebuild your wife! .. recharge her ... she needs your strength to pull her out of withdrawl and into conflict .. and then into intimacy! Dont let the things she says distract you from your day to day attempts to woo her .. or to cheer her up .. or to show her your trying as hard as you can or to show her that you got what it takes to keep the family stable!
Again .. you CAN do this Hill ... if many here did from worse situations ... you can too!
MNG!
Ephesians 5:33 "Each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."
Put that verse in context and it means that the husband must give his wife love FIRST! .. AGAPE love(there is 3 different kinds of love find out what agape love is). The husband (most of the time) does not naturally love (clams up and goes silent) in the way agape love describes but god asks we provide it no matter what for our wives(this can be just as dificult for men as respect is for women). And when it says the wife must respect her husband is becasue the wife does not do this naturally. Women have a natural tendancy to disrespect (not all .. but as a general rule it is very easy for them to use harsh words)so thats why god asks it secondary to asking the man to love. Love your wife FIRST ... and then she will respect you.
EDIT: to post a biblical reference and describe its context a bit.
I heard some assignments and a couple of free books in there.
Hill, seriously, get ahold of yourself emotionally. You CAN control your emotions if you really want to. You're not a child or a hormonal teenager.
You're still playing tit-for-tat...the "I've done this and this and this for you and you're not doing anything for me." Not that you should go without your needs met but when you start tracking the things you're doing and she's not, then you're keeping score.
Handle yourself. Even if she cursed you out one side and down the next, a simple "I don't appreciate it when you verbally disrespect me" will suffice and leave it at that rather than returning in retaliation. And I'm not saying she does that but stop responding.
And it's been this long and neither one of you have filled out the ENs questionaire? No wonder neither one of you know what needs you want met or how you want them met. And yet you're getting mad at something she doesn't know how to do.
This is like banging a pinata. Take the blindfold off.
Hi Hill,
I've been following this thread and reading your struggles, but as I am still learning myself, I didn't feel I had much to say. Last night changed that for me - because I saw something happen in my own situation that surprised me, hurt a hell of a lot, and yet confirmed I was on the right track.
I've been where you are, for quite some time I was too busy balancing the 'hurt books' - placing blame, saying 'maybe I did but you did too', trying to 'fix' my partner so she would stop hurting me - just acting out from the position of my own Taker and butting heads with hers.
Until she finally pulled back completely and went into shutdown. She went into the first signs of Withdrawal.
It seemed like there was no hope - but I found this place, and I found guidance from others as well, and despite myself and my Taker I started putting those pieces of wisdom and guidance into action.
Earlier in this thread it was said 'it always gets worse before it gets better' - I have seen this to be true. My partner spent a few weeks basically withdrawn - she was present, but shut down, she went through the motions, and would occasionally fly into fits of anger over the tiniest things, seemingly completely unreasonable and out of proportion - but I refused to fight or Love Bust. I didn't bother to even count or notice when she employed Love Busters towards me. If we disagreed, or if she got angry with me - I would apologize, explain that I understood her hurt or anger from her perspective, and then explain the mistake from my own, and then I *did not continue discussing or arguing about it* - she would try, and I would continue the same thing "Honey, I am deeply sorry for hurting you, I understand completely how you feel, I would feel the same way in your shoes, I only ask that you accept that it was a mistake and had no malicious intent to it at all."
My Taker didn't like this. To be honest my taker HATED this. Sometimes it was several times a day I had to get up, walk away, and have a little 'shut up and sit down' talk with my Taker. At the same time, my Giver was getting desperate - advising me to say anything, do anything, beg, plead, promise,fall on my sword, give until I broke the bank, whatever it took to love this woman. The Taker would switch sides and sort of encourage this plan in the moment, because hey - then I'd get what I wanted, right? It was a terrible battle, and I had to stop listening to *either* of them and take action from a different place - just as Dr. Harley advised.
And then I watched several hours of Tony Robbins doing relationship interventions - and a common theme came through.
A theme of - if your partner (speaking from the male perspective here) DID come out of withdrawal and back into conflict, if she WAS in a position of allowing she might be willing to let you meet her emotional needs again (even in the tiniest fraction of her heart) - then things were about to get a *whole lot worse* for you right away.
Because she is hurt, scared, angry, and her Taker is in full control - and as Tony Robbins put it - she may *want* to believe, but before now you've given her no *reason* to believe, so she is going to test you. HARD.
In my own situation, when I put out my hand and said 'I love you' - her response was 'I feel like you're ignoring how I really feel, trying to pretend it's not true'.
Me: 'Honey, I am not ignoring how you feel, I see and understand it, and I realize completely how you got there, and what I did to cause it. I love you, and am working and learning to be a better man for you.'
Her: 'Lovely sentiment, but I think you're just saying whatever it takes to get what you want. I've seen this before, you say whatever it takes, and then in a few days or a few weeks it just goes right back, and I'm miserable.'
Me: 'Yes, that has been the pattern of the past, and while I never intended it to be that way, and never wanted you to be unhappy, I realize that was the effect. I am deeply sorry. I love you, and I want to be the man you are more than happy to have and be with. I want to support you and help you have what you truly want."
Her: 'What is I am learning I don't want to have or be with anyone? I am *unhappy* here, being your partner.'
Me: 'Then I will have to support that decision too. I love you, there's no other answer. What you want and need can never be wrong, because it is what you need.'
(and right here - and some of this is paraphrased and shortened for space - my Taker was screaming to run, or fight, or GTFO because OMG there was huge pain looming in those words - but I remembered that Tony Robbins said - the *first* thing she is going to do is test you, hit you hard with all her hurt and anger, to prove you're faking it and are going to revert to your old ways, and the only way to save your relationship is face those tests and survive them with love - prove you're not just talking a good game. But frankly, I was expecting her to say she was leaving)
Her: 'You have no idea how many times I have come *so* close to saying screw it, I'm done. I think you underestimate just *how* upset and unhappy I am about this.'
Me: 'I don't underestimate it at all. I have seen it, I have noticed, and that is what has spurred me to begin making these changes. I love you, I want you to be happy, I would prefer that be with me, but I want you to be happy either way.'
- and it went on like this, she would throw up another accusation, saying I had not changed, I only wanted what I wanted and was pulling a con job on her to get it, and as soon as she agreed everything would go back to the way it used to be.
Several times she repeated she was unhappy, miserable, not sure she even wanted to stay. Each time I agreed with her feelings, apologized, said I would not force her - that I *preferred* that she stay and we work it out, but I would support her either way - and I would condense her statement into a 'then you don't want this or that with me' question, adding that whatever her answer was, was okay to say.
And every time I asked that, she would step away from it 'it's not even that, I'm just *miserable*' and she would begin explaining the extent of her hurt again. And when I didn't pull back or argue, she'd turn to 'being honest' - which is both an admirable quality in her, and one she uses as a weapon.
I know from her own telling that in her past, and even in her past with me - she would be honest, and then be punished for it, attacked, judged, fought with, and so on - and I began to see her using 'I'm going to be honest here' as a test - to break my resolve, to prove I was conning her, to reveal what she feared - that I wasn't for real.
It hurt - it hurt so much I can't describe. As was said earlier, it was like staring into a mirror where every ugly truth and mistake you ever made was revealed - and it took everything I had not to run, hide, or fight back.
And in my mind and heart I held on to two things - that I loved her, and whether she was preparing to leave, or was testing me, it didn't change what *I* had to do - which was stand strong, take everything she threw at me, respect her, love her, and just keep coming at her with all the love and understanding and respect and desire I had.
And before long her responses took on the tone of 'I don't know, even if I say yes I can't just turn everything back on like a switch, which is what you seem to expect'.
I am open to the possibility this is still leading to her leaving. But I have looked back over the entire evening and the exact pattern that both Dr. Harley and Tony Robbins predicted is right there as clear as daylight.
Given every opportunity to leave, without negative consequence, she chose to stay and explain herself and try to argue and make demands - selfish seeming, entirely all about her, her, her - but she was still talking to me. She hit me over and over in ways she knew would hurt me more than anything - honesty about the past and her feelings she knew would be the most painful for me to hear - and I took it and gave back love and understanding.
It was hell, and wherever it goes from her I know it's not going to get much better for a while. But loving her and meeting her emotional needs, even if it starts simply with respect and support, is the *only* option I have allowed myself.
I do not let myself judge her.
I do not let myself evaluate how *she* is doing in the relationship. I ignore her Love Busters.
I do not give myself the option of running away - withdrawing or leaving.
I do not give myself the option of trying to excuse or explain away the past and invalidate her feelings.
I do not give myself the option of anger - if I feel hurt and my Taker tries to lash out in anger, I walk away, go silent, take deep breaths, force myself back to the same place where I love and understand and respect her.
Tony Robbins said, at this point it is her *job* to test me - I want to be better, but you never *get* to be better if it is never tested. And he said *she* wants me to be better, but she has to be able to believe in me, and she can't do that without first proving that the old me isn't going to come rushing back as soon as her guard is down.
So I weathered the first serious storm, and stood strong in the face of a severe round of testing. But I warn you - it hurt like hell, at times my chest hurt so bad I felt like I couldn't breathe - but you have to do it anyway. Have to.
I heard some assignments and a couple of free books in there.
Yes I think not spending time together is the main reasons I feel not wanted. I pushed this pretty hard early on but I got quite a bit of push back from my wife so I kind of laid off it a bit. We HAVE to get babysitters for the little one. This isn't happening and as a result my wife and I get the scraps from each other at the very end of the day. Hardly conducive to creating love I'd say wouldn't you? I miss my wife!
This isn't happening and as a result my wife and I get the scraps from each other at the very end of the day.
I heard that sentence from Joyce. I'm glad you realize it's both of you getting scraps! The way she worded it I wasn't sure that came across.
Hardly conducive to creating love I'd say wouldn't you? I miss my wife!
Yes. Go get her back, Bud!
Just heard you on the show, Hilltopper
If my H and I don't get good UA time outside of the house (yes, also not at the end of the day when we are tired!) we start to feel some tension almost immediately.
If I recall correctly, Mel and I tried to talk to your W about the importance of quality UA time and getting babysitters and she seemed like she was onboard with that idea. Now you two just need to follow through on it!
Just heard you on the show, Hilltopper
If my H and I don't get good UA time outside of the house (yes, also not at the end of the day when we are tired!) we start to feel some tension almost immediately.
If I recall correctly, Mel and I tried to talk to your W about the importance of quality UA time and getting babysitters and she seemed like she was onboard with that idea. Now you two just need to follow through on it!
Well this should take a lot of pressure off both of us for now. We are both scared and walking on egg shells all day. We just spoke about finding babysitters immediately and making a list. I expressed a sense of urgency with this to my wife because we have a tendency for a day to become a week, to become a few weeks, etc. The words "This has to happen" resonates in my ears from Dr Harley. I am also going to make my efforts at doing nice things for my wife usually about doing something together. So rather than pick her some sushi up on the way home which is a nice gesture, I'd rather call a babysitter on the way home, pick up my wife and take her to sushi instead. Two for the price of one you know?
Hilltopper ...
I like you ... you seem like a guy who desires nothing but the best for his family ...
but ...
KNOCK IT OFF!
You are not currently following the program. This program will not work unless you follow it.
You've got a wife who is on board and willing to give it a try ... for the moment. The only person who can't seem to see that is you.
You are going to find yourself in this same hellhole (or worse) a year from now unless you get yourself under control. The abuse and pity parties have GOT TO STOP.
When you were going through this did the phrase KNOCK IT OFF really get you motivated? Markos uses much of the same terminology so that must have been something that really worked well for both of you. It would be amazing if we could minimize the fire and brimstone approach and focus on the positives of doing the right things if thats ok. My wife and I are gonna focus on spending time together ok? She's on board, I'm on board. If you prefer to get frustrated with me and tell me to KNOCK IT OFF then that is your prerogative but I'm inclined to run the other direction. Don't take offense to this request. I'm not suggesting you don't have experience in telling me what needs to be done, I'm just saying I for one don't respond positively to this approach.
Hill i listenend to your radio show .. I think you got some great advice from them. I also did hear that they are sending you the two books HNH and HNHN for parents. The one for parents was very helpful. Both are actually .. but since your a parent you will find the one for parents most benificial of the two... but read them both! Dont forget to watch those videos! they are informative .. and humerous at the same time, as well as making great points.
MNG
Hill i listenend to your radio show .. I think you got some great advice from them. I also did hear that they are sending you the two books HNH and HNHN for parents. The one for parents was very helpful. Both are actually .. but since your a parent you will find the one for parents most benificial of the two... but read them both! Dont forget to watch those videos! they are informative .. and humerous at the same time, as well as making great points.
MNG
Thanks man, yes I'm pumped about both actually! What a treat! I watched one video, it was about two minutes. It talked about right brain/left brain type stuff. I actually recall watching something like this with an ex-girlfriend and loved it. I think sometimes I don't understand what my wife is telling me because she's already moved on to the next subject mid-sentence! Men are good at focusing on one thing at a time. We can do great things by using this skill. Women have superior brains in the sense that they can multi-task and handle multiple subjects. I think the times that I forget things my wife is telling me is when I'm focusing on something else. I need to stop doing that
.
UGH. Really? did you have to mention the ex-gf?
Can't you just say you recall something like this and liked it?
Why the mention? (fyi, I haven't read the last couple of pages, but last I read was a post saying that you don't know what you feel but you don't think it is love...worries me, Hill)
(fyi, I haven't read the last couple of pages, but last I read was a post saying that you don't know what you feel but you don't think it is love...worries me, Hill)
Of course he doesn't feel love right now ... they've been busy beating each other up with LB and not meeting each other's EN. The love banks are empty.
But they now have the problem identified, and it sounds like Hill is ready to implement the solution.
Right, Hill? I have yet to listen to the radio show, but Markos tells me it was good.
Just heard you on the show, Hilltopper
If my H and I don't get good UA time outside of the house (yes, also not at the end of the day when we are tired!) we start to feel some tension almost immediately.
If I recall correctly, Mel and I tried to talk to your W about the importance of quality UA time and getting babysitters and she seemed like she was onboard with that idea. Now you two just need to follow through on it!
Well this should take a lot of pressure off both of us for now. We are both scared and walking on egg shells all day. We just spoke about finding babysitters immediately and making a list. I expressed a sense of urgency with this to my wife because we have a tendency for a day to become a week, to become a few weeks, etc. The words "This has to happen" resonates in my ears from Dr Harley.
I am also going to make my efforts at doing nice things for my wife usually about doing something together. So rather than pick her some sushi up on the way home which is a nice gesture, I'd rather call a babysitter on the way home, pick up my wife and take her to sushi instead. Two for the price of one you know?
[emphasis mine]
That sounds great, Hill. The more I think about it, the more I think Dr H was dead on. My sister and her H have two little ones, ages 2 and 6, the youngest has a lot of health issues and they have been hesitant to leave her with babysitters. Their relationship has been really been deteriorating over the last two years.
At my suggestion, they looked over the website and all the principles and nothing got better until they started going out on date nights and getting that quality UA time in.
I really think this is going to help you two!
(fyi, I haven't read the last couple of pages, but last I read was a post saying that you don't know what you feel but you don't think it is love...worries me, Hill)
Of course he doesn't feel love right now ... they've been busy beating each other up with LB and not meeting each other's EN. The love banks are empty.
But they now have the problem identified, and it sounds like Hill is ready to implement the solution.
Right, Hill? I have yet to listen to the radio show, but Markos tells me it was good.
Yes ma'am, my wife just listened to the show and is totally down for UA time. Admittedly she said all she wanted to do is have fun on our last trip and she had a horrible time so she is scared. Heck I'm scared. Each time we hang out alone it will get better and less awkward, that I'm certain about.
Admittedly she said all she wanted to do is have fun on our last trip
That's the key!
I asked my wife to play scrabble with me tonight to which she agreed. I'm gonna bathe kids cause her back hurts. I'm excited should be fun and beats vegging in front of the tv.
Thats the SPIRIT! TV sucks ... unless its Hockey (GO CANUCKS GO!) or Survivor! Which both my wife and I ENTHUSIASTICLY agree to watching! I'm sad Survivor is over now tho
and was very disappointed Matt didnt win in his Redemtion Island challenge. Rob didnt need that Million ... and i bet you his wife was not very happy her hubby was cuddling with a 19YO for 39 days and brought her to the end....
Sorry ... that was a bit of topic.
Well so much fir TiVo! I mean I figured rob would win but I wanted to see it on my own!
When you were going through this did the phrase KNOCK IT OFF really get you motivated?
During the trauma I caused in our marriage last year, no, it is NOT something I would've wanted to hear. BUT, how I wish some kind soul had hit me over the head with those words and showed me what I was doing to my marriage.
When you're not following the program (i.e. DJing your wife in spite of your plan, not meeting her EN and not providing her with an ENQ) and persist in having pity parties, your marriage is going to fail. Horribly. In light of a devastated home, "knock it off" seems rather tame.
No real frustration here, Hill. Something I learned while here that really helped me: If something someone on this board says ruffles your feathers, listen and take notes. There's probably a reason it bothers you, and the problem probably doesn't lie with the messenger. Usually.
When you were going through this did the phrase KNOCK IT OFF really get you motivated?
During the trauma I caused in our marriage last year, no, it is NOT something I would've wanted to hear. BUT, how I wish some kind soul had hit me over the head with those words and showed me what I was doing to my marriage.
When you're not following the program (i.e. DJing your wife in spite of your plan, not meeting her EN and not providing her with an ENQ) and persist in having pity parties, your marriage is going to fail. Horribly. In light of a devastated home, "knock it off" seems rather tame.
No real frustration here, Hill. Something I learned while here that really helped me: If something someone on this board says ruffles your feathers, listen and take notes. There's probably a reason it bothers you, and the problem probably doesn't lie with the messenger. Usually.
Understood and I'm not shooting the messenger. Throughout my life I've just never responded to that type of reinforcement, not in sports, school, by parents, etc. I respect what you are doing and understand it perfectly fine, I was just asking for me personally to remove that vernacular as I haven't found it to make me feel more motivated, just less so. Thanks again for everything.
Hi hill I noticed you ignore my posts but that's cool it's your thread. Just thought I'd share this with the others it's pretty funny, encouraging, and spot on.
Just google "anita renfroe love story" the video fits perfectly :-)
Hilltopper ...
I like you ... you seem like a guy who desires nothing but the best for his family ...
but ...
KNOCK IT OFF!
You are not currently following the program. This program will not work unless you follow it.
You've got a wife who is on board and willing to give it a try ... for the moment. The only person who can't seem to see that is you.
You are going to find yourself in this same hellhole (or worse) a year from now unless you get yourself under control. The abuse and pity parties have GOT TO STOP.
When you were going through this did the phrase KNOCK IT OFF really get you motivated? Markos uses much of the same terminology so that must have been something that really worked well for both of you. It would be amazing if we could minimize the fire and brimstone approach and focus on the positives of doing the right things if thats ok. My wife and I are gonna focus on spending time together ok? She's on board, I'm on board. If you prefer to get frustrated with me and tell me to KNOCK IT OFF then that is your prerogative but I'm inclined to run the other direction. Don't take offense to this request. I'm not suggesting you don't have experience in telling me what needs to be done, I'm just saying I for one don't respond positively to this approach.
Hmmm, he must be a yankee because that phrase works quite well in Texas.
When you were going through this did the phrase KNOCK IT OFF really get you motivated?
During the trauma I caused in our marriage last year, no, it is NOT something I would've wanted to hear. BUT, how I wish some kind soul had hit me over the head with those words and showed me what I was doing to my marriage.
When you're not following the program (i.e. DJing your wife in spite of your plan, not meeting her EN and not providing her with an ENQ) and persist in having pity parties, your marriage is going to fail. Horribly. In light of a devastated home, "knock it off" seems rather tame.
No real frustration here, Hill. Something I learned while here that really helped me: If something someone on this board says ruffles your feathers, listen and take notes. There's probably a reason it bothers you, and the problem probably doesn't lie with the messenger. Usually.
The most hilarious thing I've seen in his thread which I've done as well is copy and paste actual emails in an attempt to prove to the forum his behavior is justified. I took the same approach almost instinctively. The one last night my wife and I read said something like, "Don't call me on the phone today." We chuckled, but only because we are looking in retrospect, not because it was actually funny.
The cool thing about some of the IM conversations I copied was that people told me when I was wrong! When I got here I had no idea I had a disrespectful judgment problem. A year later I was still pretty oblivious.
Hi hill I noticed you ignore my posts but that's cool it's your thread. Just thought I'd share this with the others it's pretty funny, encouraging, and spot on.
Just google "anita renfroe love story" the video fits perfectly :-)
Nothing intentional, post away! I'll check out that video if I have the time today.
Well so much fir TiVo! I mean I figured rob would win but I wanted to see it on my own!
GAH! ... I am SOOOO sorry! I love busted you!
I figured everyone who watched Survivor had seen who won already, especially after 5 or 6 days after the fact.
Other than that ... hows it going?
Well so much fir TiVo! I mean I figured rob would win but I wanted to see it on my own!
GAH! ... I am SOOOO sorry! I love busted you!
I figured everyone who watched Survivor had seen who won already, especially after 5 or 6 days after the fact.
Other than that ... hows it going?
Great! No worries on the Survivor front, my wife knew already as well. Currently my wife and I are actively working on the following:
1. Coming up with a list of approved babysitters among family and friends.
2. Coming up with a list of babysitters that we can pay to watch our children that my wife and I feel comfortable with.
3. Coming up with a dating schedule so that we get out together to do something consistently.
When we spend no time together, needs don't get met, DJ's and SD's start flying, and we ultimately fall into the cycle. Dr Harley and his W told me not to "wait" on getting this done but I'm trying to settle down as I tend to get excited when we decide on a new direction to take. I am concerned still that a day, will be come a week, which will become a month and we'll look up and see we haven't made that list above, but I'm also aware that I need to give my wife some time and space to work some of this out on her own. After all we are talking about the bond of a mother and a baby which is incredibly strong, so I'll yield to her need to be certain that she feels enthusiastic about it.
I'm trying to settle down as I tend to get excited when we decide on a new direction to take. I am concerned still that a day, will be come a week, which will become a month and we'll look up and see we haven't made that list above, but I'm also aware that I need to give my wife some time and space to work some of this out on her own. After all we are talking about the bond of a mother and a baby which is incredibly strong, so I'll yield to her need to be certain that she feels enthusiastic about it.
This shows a great amount of insight. I am impressed.
Good luck
Went out with friends last night to sushi without any of the kids. We waited till 7pm because we know that is when baby goes down for the night so we could make it easier on her parents. It was a little intense during the drop off stages. My wife was very stressed about the entire thing. We had fun once we got there, but this morning she was not feeling good about the situation and told me so. I feel somewhat of a conflict as we are faced with two things:
1. The Harley's were VERY clear that we need to have UA time away from all three kids and that we should not WAIT on making this happen. The way to handle this is to make child/baby care arrangements.
2. My wife has a six month old child that she is very bonded with and doesn't feel very comfortable at this stage leaving her with anyone.
I know that the answer to my question is that we need to negotiate and POJA about it, but I'm not quite sure how. Furthermore, the benefit of UA time is extremely diminished if my wife doesn't feel comfortable leaving the baby in someone else's care in the first place. This isn't the end of the world, but I do want to wrap my brain about it a bit more.
Went out with friends last night to sushi without any of the kids....
1. The Harley's were VERY clear that we need to have UA time away from all three kids and that we should not WAIT on making this happen.
UA time should be time away from your kids AND from your friends. It should be time during which you focus exclusively on each other. It is good that you went out, but it should have involved only you two. You cannot meet the need for intimate conversation - one of the needs you can meet over dinner - with other people present.
While the baby is still young and not guaranteed to sleep through, you can get UA time in your own house. You need to put all 3 kids to bed, and train the older ones to stay there, and then set the table, eat and talk.
I don't think Dr Harley says that a mother (a breastfeeding mother?) must leave her baby if she is unhappy doing so, but he does insists that you spend time alone together. Spend time in the house for now, while you work on getting the baby to sleep through. In six months' time, your wife might not mind leaving her at all, because she won't need frequent feeding and she won't wake up while you're out for the evening.
An alternative is to get a babysitter, but go out for only two hours (alone - not with friends). If going for a meal takes more than two hours, go for a drink or just for a drive to a beautiful spot in the long evenings. Don't go far from home, so that you can get back quickly if the sitter calls. If you wife takes short breaks, she will find it easier to enjoy going out without fretting.
Most people cannot afford enough babysitting to make a substantial dent into the 15+ hours needed per week. The longest you are likely to manage with small kids is 4 hours per week. You will have to find the remaining hours while you stay at home - with the kids in bed, staying put.
Yes, don't do UA time with friends! Make it just the two of you and talk, talk, TALK! Being mindful of Harley's friends and enemies of good conversation.
This is the key to making a time that your wife will want to get away from the kids for awhile for.
Always remember the "undivided" in "undivided attention." Friends, children, electronic devices, and several other things all divide your attention and keep you from giving 100% of it to your wife.
Went out with friends last night to sushi without any of the kids.
Ditto what Sugarcane said. Your attention is divided when you are with friends, and you cannot count it as
undivided attention.
1. The Harley's were VERY clear that we need to have UA time away from all three kids and that we should not WAIT on making this happen. The way to handle this is to make child/baby care arrangements.
That is one way to handle it.
Brainstorm. What other options are there? What exactly is your wife uncomfortable about? Would she be more comfortable if the babysitter was in your own home?
How old were your other children when she was comfortable leaving them?
What about a babysitter in your home in one room watching the kids, while you're in another room? It may sound extreme, but that is how you brainstorm. Come up with radical ideas, even ones that may initially sound weird or impossible, and pick out the ones the two of you like. Make brainstorming a fun experience.
Personally, I know a lot of people push babysitting for parents of young children, but it's not really feasible to get all your UA in with babysitting. And it can be very stressful for the mother -- not only leaving your baby, but also having to get the other kids ready to go to the babysitter's house.
UA at home, while the kids are in another room watching a movie, can be just as fulfilling and enjoyable as going out. The kids can soon learn that they are not to bother Mommy and Daddy during your UA time. Perhaps you should save the babysitting for later when she will be more at ease?
Brainstorm together!
While the baby is still young and not guaranteed to sleep through, you can get UA time in your own house. You need to put all 3 kids to bed, and train the older ones to stay there, and then set the table, eat and talk.
I don't think Dr Harley says that a mother (a breastfeeding mother?) must leave her baby if she is unhappy doing so, but he does insists that you spend time alone together. Spend time in the house for now, while you work on getting the baby to sleep through. In six months' time, your wife might not mind leaving her at all, because she won't need frequent feeding and she won't wake up while you're out for the evening.
An alternative is to get a babysitter, but go out for only two hours (alone - not with friends). If going for a meal takes more than two hours, go for a drink or just for a drive to a beautiful spot in the long evenings. Don't go far from home, so that you can get back quickly if the sitter calls. If you wife takes short breaks, she will find it easier to enjoy going out without fretting.
Most people cannot afford enough babysitting to make a substantial dent into the 15+ hours needed per week. The longest you are likely to manage with small kids is 4 hours per week. You will have to find the remaining hours while you stay at home - with the kids in bed, staying put.
I so agree with this post!
I'll add: Is 2 hours too long for your wife to be comfortable? How about an hour? 30 minutes while you run out for some coffee? Maybe starting out with very small chunks of time will help.
Thanks for all the advice. I realize now that I relayed the story from last night and kind of presented it as an attempt at UA. My wife and I are clear that UA time is to be spent alone, there is 100% agreement on that. This dinner with friends we had setup awhile ago. What I was focusing on by relaying the story was getting advice on making my wife comfortable leaving her baby in the care of others. There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day. Baby gets up really early so unless we want to get up at 5am, it might be hard. I'd really like to think that we'll need to just get better at finding people that my wife feels good about and trusts. I don't think she felt that last night.
Thanks for all the advice. I realize now that I relayed the story from last night and kind of presented it as an attempt at UA. My wife and I are clear that UA time is to be spent alone, there is 100% agreement on that.
Okay, good; glad you had that clear.
You may find that as the quality of your conversation increases (and maybe other intimate emotional needs, too) that your wife will find your time together more valuable and this will contribute to her feeling more like it is "worth it" to leave the baby for awhile.
I'd really like to think that we'll need to just get better at finding people that my wife feels good about and trusts.
That may help and keep brainstorming on that front, but don't limit yourself to just that. A whole host of things can contribute to making circumstances where she feels more enthusiastic:
* making the time more valuable, as I said above
* the baby getting older
* different babysitters
* staying closer?
* shorter intervals at first?
* keep brainstorming; this list likely has even more I'm not seeing
Will your W agree to ONE date night a week?
Will your W agree to ONE date night a week?
Yes most certainly, likely more. Like I said we both want to do it, but in order for that to happen she has to feel good about the time spent.
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day. Baby gets up really early so unless we want to get up at 5am, it might be hard.
This is exactly why the Harleys were pushing the babysitting issue.
How many babysitters do you have that your W feels comfortable with?
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day.
I don't undertand what you mean here.
Are you able to get the kids asleep, all at the same time, for about two hours sometime between 7 and 11?
Isn't the baby beginning to have something resembling daytimes and nighttimes, rather than sleeping and waking as she pleases around the clock?
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day. Baby gets up really early so unless we want to get up at 5am, it might be hard.
This is exactly why the Harleys were pushing the babysitting issue.
How many babysitters do you have that your W feels comfortable with?
Honestly? At this time I think zero. She has 2-3 that she is "somewhat" comfortable with. Something that is interesting however. When my wife was taking her long runs she had a girlfriend or two that she occasionally let watch the baby. I never heard her mention being uncomfortable about it. I sent her an email today that said I'd like negotiate with her about it. Part of my suggestions was using one of her girlfriends rather than her parents. Maybe that will sit better with her.
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day.
I don't undertand what you mean here.
Are you able to get the kids asleep, all at the same time, for about two hours sometime between 7 and 11?
Isn't the baby beginning to have something resembling daytimes and nighttimes, rather than sleeping and waking as she pleases around the clock?
Sorry, I assumed you listened to what Joyce told me on the radio show, my bad. YES there is time at end of the night. Joyce felt that time at the end of the day when we are both tired and not feeling interactive was not the most valuable time we could have together. She referred to it as the "dregs" or just "scraps". We do watch tv every night after the kids go down and I think it is enjoyable if we aren't beat. Dr Harley said specifically that we needed to address our child care situation.
There is an element of Respectful Requests when negotiating where you can agree to give things a try for a little while and re-evaluate. I have my books packed up right now so I'm going off of memory.
In the example Dr. Harley discusses seatbelts where one spouse hates wearing them but the other respectfully requests that they do wear it. The agree to have the spouse who isn't into seatbelts try wearing one for 3 months then they re-evaluate.
Sometimes when we're POJAing something, either I or my husband may be iffy on our level of enthusiasm, but we agree to go ahead with what we've decided. Sometimes the hesitant one becomes enthusiastic and sometimes they find out they aren't. Either way is a win, because now you have more information with which to make a decision.
So would your wife be willing to try the babysitting date-night at least once a week (or heck twice if she's willing to try that) for say a month or two and see if her reservations or worries diminish over time?
If they do - then you're set. If they don't then it is likely that the process will reveal to her what exactly the problem is so that you will be better equipped to overcome it.
Leaving your baby the first time is rough... over time it can get better.
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day. Baby gets up really early so unless we want to get up at 5am, it might be hard.
This is exactly why the Harleys were pushing the babysitting issue.
How many babysitters do you have that your W feels comfortable with?
Honestly? At this time I think zero. She has 2-3 that she is "somewhat" comfortable with. Something that is interesting however. When my wife was taking her long runs she had a girlfriend or two that she occasionally let watch the baby. I never heard her mention being uncomfortable about it. I sent her an email today that said I'd like negotiate with her about it. Part of my suggestions was using one of her girlfriends rather than her parents. Maybe that will sit better with her.
Hmmm....
Well, what exactly is the issue she has with not feeling comfortable? Is there some qualification she is looking for that these people don't have?
Hill .. you two are doing a FANTASTIC job. I can tell by the style of typing that your situation most likely doesnt feel as "desperate" as it used to ... and that your new habits of caring are starting to sink in. ONce the complete transition from your prior state of being to your new "caring states of being kicks in .. (if it hasn't already) life is going to feel ALOT different, and once your newest child is a bit older alot of your current babysitting issues will dissolve.
Hang in there Hill ... you guys are finally filling your love banks up and at the very least plugging some holes in it that were constantly draining your accounts. keep up the great work!
MNG
So would your wife be willing to try the babysitting date-night at least once a week (or heck twice if she's willing to try that) for say a month or two and see if her reservations or worries diminish over time?
This is an awesome suggestion.
I worry, HT, that if you don't get some kind of tentative plan into place NOW you two will not establish a new pattern.
There is quite literally no time aside from the end of the day. Baby gets up really early so unless we want to get up at 5am, it might be hard.
This is exactly why the Harleys were pushing the babysitting issue.
How many babysitters do you have that your W feels comfortable with?
Honestly? At this time I think zero. She has 2-3 that she is "somewhat" comfortable with. Something that is interesting however. When my wife was taking her long runs she had a girlfriend or two that she occasionally let watch the baby. I never heard her mention being uncomfortable about it. I sent her an email today that said I'd like negotiate with her about it. Part of my suggestions was using one of her girlfriends rather than her parents. Maybe that will sit better with her.
Hmmm....
Well, what exactly is the issue she has with not feeling comfortable? Is there some qualification she is looking for that these people don't have?
No, nothing like CPR or similar. I just think she feels uneasy. To be honest my instincts tell me to read into why she is ok with her friend watching the baby while she goes on a run, but less comfortable with it when we go out on a date. I'll suppress those instincts for now. :)I've felt a bit of a push back since last night from my wife before we dropped off the baby. My wife doesn't like to be pushed and I really don't know that I did. She gets irritated at times when I spend too much time on MB which I actually get. Its just the way I choose to deal with things internally. Enough with comments of any kind about finding a babysitter for the rest of today. She knows it needs to be done, so I'll let her work it out just a bit before coming back to it.
Hill .. you two are doing a FANTASTIC job. I can tell by the style of typing that your situation most likely doesnt feel as "desperate" as it used to ... and that your new habits of caring are starting to sink in. ONce the complete transition from your prior state of being to your new "caring states of being kicks in .. (if it hasn't already) life is going to feel ALOT different, and once your newest child is a bit older alot of your current babysitting issues will dissolve.
Hang in there Hill ... you guys are finally filling your love banks up and at the very least plugging some holes in it that were constantly draining your accounts. keep up the great work!
MNG
Thanks, it does feel different already.
So would your wife be willing to try the babysitting date-night at least once a week (or heck twice if she's willing to try that) for say a month or two and see if her reservations or worries diminish over time?
This is an awesome suggestion.
I worry, HT, that if you don't get some kind of tentative plan into place NOW you two will not establish a new pattern.
Well now see that is how I see things as well, particularly after speaking with the Harleys. Joyce said, "Don't wait on it." Being a practical, problem solving male, that meant to me do it now! Problem solved, move on! My wife I guess needs some more time to think it through so for now I'll need to respect that That doesn't mean I'm gonna put the ball in her court forever, it just means that I'll take a break from it for the rest of today, possibly for tomorrow, then revisit again later. I'm NOT ok with putting off finding child care arrangements indefinitely.
That doesn't mean I'm gonna put the ball in her court forever, it just means that I'll take a break from it for the rest of today, possibly for tomorrow, then revisit again later. I'm NOT ok with putting off finding child care arrangements indefinitely.
I believe that Dr. Harley says when there's a conflict, to revisit the issue once a week until the problem is solved to both of your liking.
Once a week. No more, no less
Spend the rest of the time enjoying each other and meeting EN.
Good night tonight! My wife rocks!
Ok a new day, I'm level headed and focused on doing what is right. The house stresses my wife out so I'm gonna make a "Honey Do" list from memory today at work and try to get most of it done throughout the weekend, WITHOUT being asked which is the key.
Ok a new day, I'm level headed and focused on doing what is right. The house stresses my wife out so I'm gonna make a "Honey Do" list from memory today at work and try to get most of it done throughout the weekend, WITHOUT being asked which is the key.
Good call! Domestic support tends to be a very important EN for mothers of small children.
Turns out I'm a bad business partner as well. My general attitude in life has to be adjusted. I want to be a better man and I believe I've started that process. You can't go about life gaining at others expense. You have to give to receive. Wake up call man, big wake up call!
Wife fell asleep on the couch again tonight. Not her fault, just miss her and wished we could have had some fun. Tomorrow is another day. Anyways she looks super cute on the couch right now.
Turns out I'm a bad business partner as well. My general attitude in life has to be adjusted. I want to be a better man and I believe I've started that process. You can't go about life gaining at others expense. You have to give to receive. Wake up call man, big wake up call!
You'll find building a good marriage will do a lot of good things for your character.
Nothing to serious, just regrouping myself to make good decisions when I feel a desire for EN's to be met. My wife has responded well to receiving my affection better, hugging me back when I hug her, etc. I feel good when I hug/kiss her so I do it frequently. I still struggle with the lack of initiated affection, SF, etc on her part. I know I can't control her. I know I have a tendency to NOT ask for things from my wife for whatever reasons. We've had perfectly pleasant if not wonderful days, don't get me wrong. Played Scrabble till late last night and we had a great time(she won!). There is this lingering feeling however inside me that is related to her "not needing" or "desiring" affection or SF as much as I do. I would describe it as it not really occurring to her. The more I initiate affection, the more she doesn't have to if that makes sense. Is that good? Bad? Ideas on how to ask her for this EN?
Reading HNHN, the Harley's sent it to us. I'm in chapter one and something that Dr Harley writes about hit me so hard I had to come here and share it. It is the relationship between affection and sex. Most women need affection to have sex, you can't have one without the other. Most men have a hard time being affectionate. My wife and I are a bit different I'd say. I rank affection and SF as my two most ENs. My wife has a few that are different. I grew up as I mentioned in a very "huggy" affectionate family, it comes easy to me. I give bear hugs to most of my buddies, my Dad, etc. Her family experience was very different. So here is my dilemma:
1. Is it possible my displays of affection to my wife, kisses, hugs, etc are perceived by her as a sign that I want SF? If that is the case are my attempts actually not causing her LB to fill, but rather removing deposits? I have to think the answer is no, but I still have to ask the question.
2. If one of my wife's ENs is not Affection, how then does the relationship between affection and SF change in our case? If you can't have SF without affection, but yet my wife is ok without me being affectionate towards her, then how does SF happen? What does she need to "feel" like being intimate with me?
Last night before bed we snuggled a bit. I asked her and she said sure. I'd admit, there was a small part of me that hoped it might turn into something more, but I was ok without it, I just wanted to be connected to my wife either way. SF is always better than snuggling, but I enjoy both of them very, very much.
The feeling of security has come back for the most part, however the feeling of not being needed has not. I feel I'm needed to:
1. Watch the kids to give her a break.
2. Take care of the family financially.
3. Make dinner and do dishes frequently.
I can keep going of course, but I'm just trying to make a point. Notice I'm not needed to be her romantic partner, her lover. It hurts a lot, whether or not I'm a big cause of it, that she doesn't need me for that. I'm doing the best I can to meet her needs and avoid LBs, but it so overwhelming at times its hard to know where to start. The Harley's said UA, so I'm doing everything I can to make that happen. I guess I'm struggling with being patient about it. Anyways, answers to the questions above would be greatly appreciated! Taking the kids to a bday party today, should be fun.
I am running on very low sleep, so forgive me if I ramble tonight.
Have the two of you filled out your ENQs yet? What needs has she placed as the top 5 or 6?
Nothing to serious, just regrouping myself to make good decisions when I feel a desire for EN's to be met. My wife has responded well to receiving my affection better, hugging me back when I hug her, etc. I feel good when I hug/kiss her so I do it frequently. I still struggle with the lack of initiated affection, SF, etc on her part.
This is good news, Hill. She is responding to you.
If it would mean a lot to you for her to initiate some of these things on occasion, then put it on your ENQ.
Examples:
"I like it when you come up behind me and hug me out of the blue."
"I love it when you grab my arm and kiss me as we pass each other in the hall."
There is this lingering feeling however inside me that is related to her "not needing" or "desiring" affection or SF as much as I do. I would describe it as it not really occurring to her. The more I initiate affection, the more she doesn't have to if that makes sense.
Be very, very careful here. You are bordering on a DJ.
Remember, she is a different person, and it's perfectly okay if her need for affection or SF is different than yours.
Markos has a higher need for physical affection than I do. He wants to be touched and held, hugged and kissed. I prefer he show me affection by bringing me small gifts. We're different than the typical male/female examples. But it's not unheard of for a woman to not desire physical affection.
But it's very likely that the reason her desire for these things seems low is because she's in withdrawal.
Dr. Harley has said that when a person's top emotional needs are NOT the 4 intimate needs (conversation, affection, recreational companionship and SF), and instead they desire domestic support or family commitment as their top needs, it is a sign that this person is in withdrawal.
What needs has she placed at the top of her ENQ?
1. Is it possible my displays of affection to my wife, kisses, hugs, etc are perceived by her as a sign that I want SF? If that is the case are my attempts actually not causing her LB to fill, but rather removing deposits? I have to think the answer is no, but I still have to ask the question.
Possible, but she doesn't seem to sound like she has a sexual aversion. It really sounds like she just needs time for her Love Bank to fill up.
2. If one of my wife's ENs is not Affection, how then does the relationship between affection and SF change in our case? If you can't have SF without affection, but yet my wife is ok without me being affectionate towards her, then how does SF happen? What does she need to "feel" like being intimate with me?
She needs to feel in love. She will feel in love if you keep the UA up, and fill that time with the 4 intimate EN.
I suggest you read Chapter 5, on conversation.
I studied this very question by investigating couples who were in love. How much time did they give each other? I studied couples who were dating, couples who had maintained romantic love while married, and couples having affairs. In all of these cases, I found that those who maintained their love for each other schedules time to be together almost every day. While their daily time together varried, the time they spent each week was almost always over fifteen hours. During that time they had each other's undivided attention, and they used most of it to engage in intimate conversation.
Based on these findings, and overwhelming evidence I've acquired since then, I tell couples that if they want to maintain their love for each other, they should learn to do what those in love are doing -- set aside at least fifteen hours a week for undivided attention, where one of the primary purposes is to engage in intimate conversation.
First, conversation is an integral part of how all of the other important emotional needs are met.
I am running on very low sleep, so forgive me if I ramble tonight.
Have the two of you filled out your ENQs yet? What needs has she placed as the top 5 or 6?
Nothing to serious, just regrouping myself to make good decisions when I feel a desire for EN's to be met. My wife has responded well to receiving my affection better, hugging me back when I hug her, etc. I feel good when I hug/kiss her so I do it frequently. I still struggle with the lack of initiated affection, SF, etc on her part.
This is good news, Hill. She is responding to you.
If it would mean a lot to you for her to initiate some of these things on occasion, then put it on your ENQ.
Examples:
"I like it when you come up behind me and hug me out of the blue."
"I love it when you grab my arm and kiss me as we pass each other in the hall."
There is this lingering feeling however inside me that is related to her "not needing" or "desiring" affection or SF as much as I do. I would describe it as it not really occurring to her. The more I initiate affection, the more she doesn't have to if that makes sense.
Be very, very careful here. You are bordering on a DJ.
Remember, she is a different person, and it's perfectly okay if her need for affection or SF is different than yours.
Markos has a higher need for physical affection than I do. He wants to be touched and held, hugged and kissed. I prefer he show me affection by bringing me small gifts. We're different than the typical male/female examples. But it's not unheard of for a woman to not desire physical affection.
But it's very likely that the reason her desire for these things seems low is because she's in withdrawal.
Dr. Harley has said that when a person's top emotional needs are NOT the 4 intimate needs (conversation, affection, recreational companionship and SF), and instead they desire domestic support or family commitment as their top needs, it is a sign that this person is in withdrawal.
What needs has she placed at the top of her ENQ?
1. Is it possible my displays of affection to my wife, kisses, hugs, etc are perceived by her as a sign that I want SF? If that is the case are my attempts actually not causing her LB to fill, but rather removing deposits? I have to think the answer is no, but I still have to ask the question.
Possible, but she doesn't seem to sound like she has a sexual aversion. It really sounds like she just needs time for her Love Bank to fill up.
2. If one of my wife's ENs is not Affection, how then does the relationship between affection and SF change in our case? If you can't have SF without affection, but yet my wife is ok without me being affectionate towards her, then how does SF happen? What does she need to "feel" like being intimate with me?
She needs to feel in love. She will feel in love if you keep the UA up, and fill that time with the 4 intimate EN.
I suggest you read Chapter 5, on conversation.
I studied this very question by investigating couples who were in love. How much time did they give each other? I studied couples who were dating, couples who had maintained romantic love while married, and couples having affairs. In all of these cases, I found that those who maintained their love for each other schedules time to be together almost every day. While their daily time together varried, the time they spent each week was almost always over fifteen hours. During that time they had each other's undivided attention, and they used most of it to engage in intimate conversation.
Based on these findings, and overwhelming evidence I've acquired since then, I tell couples that if they want to maintain their love for each other, they should learn to do what those in love are doing -- set aside at least fifteen hours a week for undivided attention, where one of the primary purposes is to engage in intimate conversation.
First, conversation is an integral part of how all of the other important emotional needs are met.
Thanks Pricsa. Great advice to be followed, which brings me to an issue that is occurring I believe. Both Grace and I are not implementing the advice and program very well for one reason or another. I can't speak for her, but for me at least there are two things that are causing me to be discouraged in implementing this program:
1. I get discouraged. I get shot down once, try it again, shot down twice, then tend to lose confidence in asking again. Intimate conversation is extremely important. I began the process of asking my wife questions about a week ago. "How do you feel about the winner of Survivor?" "How do you feel about trying to get you back to the gym on a regular basis?" "How was it when you were young going to school with your friends?" The answers are usually one word or one sentence. I'm not having success and getting any kind of a conversation going with my wife and it is discouraging.
2. Push back/postponement: My wife is pushing off implementing some of the MB principles, particularly child care. I asked her this morning is we could go on a date night this week. She said, "we'll see". I asked her also if we could write down things that make us happy so the other person can just automatically do them. The example I used was coffee. I asked her if she enjoyed me making coffee for her each morning. She said, "well I guess so, but it really just depends, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't." If I knew she like coffee, I'd do it every morning, but since she hasn't told me, and I can't tell by her reactions I just don't know.
Spending UA time with each other is critical, but so is communication. She asked for me to always ask her if I need clarification about something. I kid you not, I need clarification about 50% of everything she says or asks of me. This tells me there has to be something else involved here. "Would you like to go on a date with me this week?" It would make it easier if she said something like, "That would be great! Let me call my Dad and I'll see if he can watch the kids Wednesday!" When I get the answer similar to, "we'll see" it not only is confusing but discouraging. I don't really feel like she wants to go on a date with me when I feel the push back/postpone type of answers.
What I'd really like is ideas on how to begin faithfully implementing this program on both our sides. BTW, read first six chapters of HNHN yesterday as fast as I could. Lot of great info in there, very different than LB or RL. I learned that affairs happen frequently when ENs are not being met by their spouse. I also learned that men need sex(A lot), so I don't feel so bad about myself getting discouraged about feeling that way. I'm still afraid to ask for SF, and I'm not getting any better at it. I learned that most women need affection to have sex. I also believe the affection I've been giving my wife is the wrong kind a lot of the time. No sexual undertones from here on out. I'm gonna focus on being thoughtful, loving, caring, etc.
HT, regarding the UA time, since it sounds like your W is worried about leaving the baby, I have a suggestion that my sister and her H have used to help them leave behind their toddler (the one with health issues).
They both have the iPhone4 which has the dual cameras. They leave one with the sitter and take the other. They are able to call using FaceTime and check in and "see" what is going on in the house while they are out. If you don't have an iPhone4, it may be worth looking into the $$ to upgrade (there are other models that use FaceTime, btw, not just the iPhone) if this will help your W relax enough to enjoy the date.
I think someone else suggested this but maybe you could just go out for a drink and appetizer at a bar and make it a shorter date for the first few times until she feels a little more confident about leaving the baby.
Is your W still checking in here?
HT, regarding the UA time, since it sounds like your W is worried about leaving the baby, I have a suggestion that my sister and her H have used to help them leave behind their toddler (the one with health issues).
They both have the iPhone4 which has the dual cameras. They leave one with the sitter and take the other. They are able to call using FaceTime and check in and "see" what is going on in the house while they are out. If you don't have an iPhone4, it may be worth looking into the $$ to upgrade (there are other models that use FaceTime, btw, not just the iPhone) if this will help your W relax enough to enjoy the date.
I think someone else suggested this but maybe you could just go out for a drink and appetizer at a bar and make it a shorter date for the first few times until she feels a little more confident about leaving the baby.
Is your W still checking in here?
She has an Iphone4, yes! Well worth looking into. I don't think she has stopped checking in, but definitely hasn't for awhile. I'd like her to be here, it is important to be here. I honestly don't trust myself without being here each and every single day, but that is me.
Asked wife to hang out tonight for a romantic evening tonight after kids go down. She said she is open for a fun night. Baby is stressing her out, hope it works out, it us soooo stressful for tgrace, I hope it works out. We really need a fun night without baby being difficult, this weekend was tough.
Asked wife to hang out tonight for a romantic evening tonight after kids go down. She said she is open for a fun night. Baby is stressing her out, hope it works out, it us soooo stressful for tgrace, I hope it works out. We really need a fun night without baby being difficult, this weekend was tough.
We sat on the couch mostly in silence last night. It got easier at the end but for the most part we didn't have much to talk about. I'm deeply depressed, she knows it, and I'm not sure how to pick myself up off the ground about it. At the very end of the night she asked if I wanted a SF date tomorrow night. I said sure. I definitely get discouraged when there isn't enough SF and its been a week. Its just not up to me, I can't ask because I'm terrified to do so, and she doesn't typically offer unless she can tell i'm discouraged. I still feel like most everything isn't up to me, she's in charge.
Three questions:
1. Have the two of you filled out your ENQs?
2. How many UA hours are you getting a week?
3. Are you scheduling UA activities ahead of time?
Three questions:
1. Have the two of you filled out your ENQs? Yes but need to be revised.
2. How many UA hours are you getting a week? 10-15, but not much outside of the couch and TV. We did scrabble the other night which was nice.
3. Are you scheduling UA activities ahead of time?
WATCHING TELEVISION DOES NOT COUNT AS UA TIME! YOUR ATTENTION IS ON THE TELEVISION AND NOT EACH OTHER!
Just in case you forgot.
[quote=Prisca]Three questions:
1. Have the two of you filled out your ENQs? Yes but need to be revised.
You have been talking about doing this for a few weeks now. When are you going to do it?
2. How many UA hours are you getting a week? 10-15, but not much outside of the couch and TV. We did scrabble the other night which was nice.
3. Are you scheduling UA activities ahead of time? No, this is some of the "push back" I believe I'm receiving from my wife. Everything is just "up in the air" you know?
10-15 hours will not work, and the two of you will more likely just grow more agitated and distant. It takes a MINIMUM of 15 hours to maintain romantic love. That's a MINIMUM. More is better, if you can cut it.
Also, TV doesn't count. And I was the worst at coming around and admitting this. A few months back, ALL I wanted to do was sit in front of the TV with Markos. Why? Because I was in withdrawal, and nothing else sounded enjoyable.
It's already been mentioned that Grace is probably in withdrawal. You're going to have to be the one to step up here and get things going.
Don't push, but start making plans.
Sit down right now and look at this coming week. Where can you fit 15 hours in? Use some of the suggestions on this thread to start getting that time in at home -- don't wait around until you can agree on a babysitter. Start now.
Mention a babysitter to her once a week, and see if she will discuss ideas with you. If not, back off and revisit the issue a week later.
But start scheduling 15 hours anyway. Markos and I get a lot of our time together in the morning while the kids are having breakfast in front of a cartoon. You can do the same in the evening. Just one hour in the morning and one at night will give you 14 hours a week, and you can probably squeeze in another hour or two on the weekend. Take the initiative here and come up with a plan.
Then plan activities for those times. Something you know that she will enjoy. Now, she may not respond immediately, but her love bank is deep in the red and it will take some time before the results may show. So ya'll like scrabble? Schedule it a couple times a week. PLAN for conversations. Start investigating her -- asking her questions (but being prepared for not much of a response at first). You take the initiative and make the plan.
Show her the calendar you've come up with. Ask her if she'd like to make changes. Ask for any input at all. She may have none, and may just brush you off.
When the scheduled time comes, ask her to join in the activity with you. If she doesn't want to, ask what she would like to do instead. Be with her. Talk to her, even if she doesn't respond much.
She eventually will. You are making small deposits in her love bank right now -- they're small because she's in withdrawal. Each one counts though. She'll eventually come out of withdrawal, and you'll be able to make even larger deposits.
Plan the UA time. Start making love bank deposits.
[quote=Prisca]Three questions:
1. Have the two of you filled out your ENQs? Yes but need to be revised.
You have been talking about doing this for a few weeks now. When are you going to do it?
2. How many UA hours are you getting a week? 10-15, but not much outside of the couch and TV. We did scrabble the other night which was nice.
3. Are you scheduling UA activities ahead of time? No, this is some of the "push back" I believe I'm receiving from my wife. Everything is just "up in the air" you know?
10-15 hours will not work, and the two of you will more likely just grow more agitated and distant. It takes a MINIMUM of 15 hours to maintain romantic love. That's a MINIMUM. More is better, if you can cut it.
Also, TV doesn't count. And I was the worst at coming around and admitting this. A few months back, ALL I wanted to do was sit in front of the TV with Markos. Why? Because I was in withdrawal, and nothing else sounded enjoyable.
It's already been mentioned that Grace is probably in withdrawal. You're going to have to be the one to step up here and get things going.
Don't push, but start making plans.
Sit down right now and look at this coming week. Where can you fit 15 hours in? Use some of the suggestions on this thread to start getting that time in at home -- don't wait around until you can agree on a babysitter. Start now.
Mention a babysitter to her once a week, and see if she will discuss ideas with you. If not, back off and revisit the issue a week later.
But start scheduling 15 hours anyway. Markos and I get a lot of our time together in the morning while the kids are having breakfast in front of a cartoon. You can do the same in the evening. Just one hour in the morning and one at night will give you 14 hours a week, and you can probably squeeze in another hour or two on the weekend. Take the initiative here and come up with a plan.
Then plan activities for those times. Something you know that she will enjoy. Now, she may not respond immediately, but her love bank is deep in the red and it will take some time before the results may show. So ya'll like scrabble? Schedule it a couple times a week. PLAN for conversations. Start investigating her -- asking her questions (but being prepared for not much of a response at first). You take the initiative and make the plan.
Show her the calendar you've come up with. Ask her if she'd like to make changes. Ask for any input at all. She may have none, and may just brush you off.
When the scheduled time comes, ask her to join in the activity with you. If she doesn't want to, ask what she would like to do instead. Be with her. Talk to her, even if she doesn't respond much.
She eventually will. You are making small deposits in her love bank right now -- they're small because she's in withdrawal. Each one counts though. She'll eventually come out of withdrawal, and you'll be able to make even larger deposits.
Plan the UA time. Start making love bank deposits.
We both filled out the RC Worksheet. There are about 10-15 "6's" in there. Tonight we planned on walking for an hour from 5-6pm and then playing Scrabble from 8-930pm. I put it in the worksheet so we can both see it.
We both filled out the RC Worksheet. There are about 10-15 "6's" in there.
So go ahead and schedule next week with some of those "6's", and be sure to allow a lot of time for conversation.
And schedule some time for SF, too. Let Grace look it over for the next few days, and give her input.
Get 15 hours in for the next several weeks, then see how your love banks are doing.
We both filled out the RC Worksheet. There are about 10-15 "6's" in there.
So go ahead and schedule next week with some of those "6's", and be sure to allow a lot of time for conversation.
And schedule some time for SF, too. Let Grace look it over for the next few days, and give her input.
Get 15 hours in for the next several weeks, then see how your love banks are doing.
We just finished one which was taking a walk down to the store to buy something to grill for dinner. Kids at parents house. Had to take baby, but she was sleeping. In about an hour we are playing scrabble. So that is two sixes in one day. Grace was VERY talkative on our walk so I think we'll keep doing that one!
Great, keep doing that! I wish we could take a walk like that!
Great, keep doing that! I wish we could take a walk like that!
We live in a big tract home neighborhood, so the stores are about a mile away. Walking to pick up some fresh produce to grill is pretty fun, we get to talk a lot, we get some blood flowing, etc. The more I think about recreational activities, the more I like the in-between kind where you are not out of breath so you can't talk, but yet you get the blood flowing, and can still carry a conversation. If you go running together and both spouses have headsets on, I don't think that is nearly as valuable.
Great, keep doing that! I wish we could take a walk like that!
We live in a big tract home neighborhood, so the stores are about a mile away. Walking to pick up some fresh produce to grill is pretty fun, we get to talk a lot, we get some blood flowing, etc. The more I think about recreational activities, the more I like the in-between kind where you are not out of breath so you can't talk, but yet you get the blood flowing, and can still carry a conversation. If you go running together and both spouses have headsets on, I don't think that is nearly as valuable.
Right, avoid anything that precludes you guys having intimate conversation! Dr. Harley says don't count anything as UA time that keeps you from giving each other your undivided attention, and he gives a few examples like movies and video games, but I still always felt it was a little confusing and vague until I reread the Conversation chapter in His Needs Her Needs recently and saw his statement that most of the hours of UA time should be spent in intimate conversation.
You can do fun things together of course, just don't let those activities (or anything else) get in the way of the number one goal of spending fifteen hours per week giving each other your undivided attention and meeting each other's intimate emotional needs.
Anyone listen to the radio show today? How many husbands out there pretend that other ENs are just as important as SF? If so how long did it take to admit it? Come on now let's start calling a spade a spade'.
I don't understand your question. You mean like your wife has a need and as a guy think sex trumps the other needs taht your wife might have?
It took a bit before my wife recognized that SF is really a legitimate need. It was us reading the MB books together as our UA time for her to realize, "Hey! He's not just a walking hormone."
My wife's highest ENs are DS and FC. She glows when I meet these.
Anyone listen to the radio show today? How many husbands out there pretend that other ENs are just as important as SF? If so how long did it take to admit it? Come on now let's start calling a spade a spade'.
Actually, I believe that for a long time, I pretended the opposite; that other EN's were NOT as important as SF. And because of this, I got the need for S met, without any F.
Two parts; sexual. stop. fulfillment. stop.
Sometimes, putting the "F" in SF - even for men - includes Admiration, Affection, and Conversation.
Anyone listen to the radio show today? How many husbands out there pretend that other ENs are just as important as SF? If so how long did it take to admit it? Come on now let's start calling a spade a spade'.
Actually, I believe that for a long time, I pretended the opposite; that other EN's were NOT as important as SF. And because of this, I got the need for S met, without any F.
Two parts; sexual. stop. fulfillment. stop.
Sometimes, putting the "F" in SF - even for men - includes Admiration, Affection, and Conversation.
Reason I mentioned it is because Dr Harley on yesterday's show mentioned something along the lines of, "For most men SF, is their single most important EN. Their second most important EN, so far down the list by comparison...." You get the point. I think in my particular case, I felt bad, staring at the workbook, knowing that SF is my most important EN. To distract from that selfish need(I know I am not selfish now), I placed more importance on other ENs incorrectly and less on SF. One of them was affection. So I'm wondering how many men, whether it be from the pressures of society, their wives, etc would place less importance on SF when in reality that is what they needed most?
Anyone listen to the radio show today? How many husbands out there pretend that other ENs are just as important as SF? If so how long did it take to admit it? Come on now let's start calling a spade a spade'.
Actually, I believe that for a long time, I pretended the opposite; that other EN's were NOT as important as SF. And because of this, I got the need for S met, without any F.
Two parts; sexual. stop. fulfillment. stop.
Sometimes, putting the "F" in SF - even for men - includes Admiration, Affection, and Conversation.
Reason I mentioned it is because Dr Harley on yesterday's show mentioned something along the lines of, "For most men SF, is their single most important EN. Their second most important EN, so far down the list by comparison...." You get the point. I think in my particular case, I felt bad, staring at the workbook, knowing that SF is my most important EN. To distract from that selfish need(I know I am not selfish now), I placed more importance on other ENs incorrectly and less on SF. One of them was affection. So I'm wondering how many men, whether it be from the pressures of society, their wives, etc would place less importance on SF when in reality that is what they needed most?
*puts his hand up*
I did that! .. The first time i did my ENQ i didnt do it truthfully becasue i was afraid of my wifes reaction. I had SF like 3 on the list and affection and admiration was #1 and #2. But the truth was ... SF WAS #1 by far in comparison. Still is!
MNG
Anyone listen to the radio show today? How many husbands out there pretend that other ENs are just as important as SF? If so how long did it take to admit it? Come on now let's start calling a spade a spade'.
Actually, I believe that for a long time, I pretended the opposite; that other EN's were NOT as important as SF. And because of this, I got the need for S met, without any F.
Two parts; sexual. stop. fulfillment. stop.
Sometimes, putting the "F" in SF - even for men - includes Admiration, Affection, and Conversation.
Reason I mentioned it is because Dr Harley on yesterday's show mentioned something along the lines of, "For most men SF, is their single most important EN. Their second most important EN, so far down the list by comparison...." You get the point. I think in my particular case, I felt bad, staring at the workbook, knowing that SF is my most important EN. To distract from that selfish need(I know I am not selfish now), I placed more importance on other ENs incorrectly and less on SF. One of them was affection. So I'm wondering how many men, whether it be from the pressures of society, their wives, etc would place less importance on SF when in reality that is what they needed most?
*puts his hand up*
I did that! .. The first time i did my ENQ i didnt do it truthfully becasue i was afraid of my wifes reaction. I had SF like 3 on the list and affection and admiration was #1 and #2. But the truth was ... SF WAS #1 by far in comparison. Still is!
MNG
I thought so, thanks for your honesty MNG. Now can you go over to my wife's post and push the Maca Root!
While you're there you can remind her that Hill needs lots of SF!!!
Well .. I might do that .. but one thing I would like to chime in on was a few (many) pages back you mentioned a vasectomy. I would go get that done ... possibly your wife is nervous about getting preggo again and condoms/birth control are a bit of a turn off for her. Its ALOT easier to SF when you know your not having any more kids and you have made sure (by vasectomy) that the chances are NULL to her getting preggo again. ONce you do this .. you will find that your sex will be alot more spntaneous becasue you dont have to go "do you got protection hun?" and waste those few extra moments to "put one on" in the heat of the moment ... its alot nicer to just not have to stop and lose your "momentum".
Get er done ... asap if you dont plan on any more kids ... you wife will love you for it! .. do it on a friday (mid afternoon) then sit on a bag of frozen veggies for the weekend and youll be back to work on monday NP. Then a week from then you'll be good to go! And that week off you give your wife (unless you plan it around her period) will give your wife some "relief of pressure" until you guys are in tune again.
MNG
x2 on ^ post.
If y'all don't want any more kids, I can't tell you how relieving having a vasectomy is. Pain is minimal, after discomfort is short, and recovery time isn't that long.
Hi Kilted, thanks for posting this. My husband is sure that a v will leave him in his words "mooing at the moon", i.e. totally emasculated. I would be so impressed with him if he would have this done. If it wasn't such invasive surgery I would have my tubes tied in a moment.
Well .. I might do that .. but one thing I would like to chime in on was a few (many) pages back you mentioned a vasectomy. I would go get that done ... possibly your wife is nervous about getting preggo again and condoms/birth control are a bit of a turn off for her. Its ALOT easier to SF when you know your not having any more kids and you have made sure (by vasectomy) that the chances are NULL to her getting preggo again. ONce you do this .. you will find that your sex will be alot more spntaneous becasue you dont have to go "do you got protection hun?" and waste those few extra moments to "put one on" in the heat of the moment ... its alot nicer to just not have to stop and lose your "momentum".
Get er done ... asap if you dont plan on any more kids ... you wife will love you for it! .. do it on a friday (mid afternoon) then sit on a bag of frozen veggies for the weekend and youll be back to work on monday NP. Then a week from then you'll be good to go! And that week off you give your wife (unless you plan it around her period) will give your wife some "relief of pressure" until you guys are in tune again.
MNG
Yep this is our plan! By the way I bought a bottle of Maca Root the other day. My wife isn't down with taking some yet, but it appears that it is great for both men and women. Do you take it? If so what changes have you seen in yourself? I was specifically interested in it effects on skin(mine is very dry) and adrenal glands. Energy is a big problem for me.
Wife and I just got into it a bit. Not a huge fight but it was very difficult. She insulted me repeatedly, told me my complaint was invalid, etc. It stems around me saying "no" to her. I was doing something important to me(posting on this forum), she felt what she needed to do trumped my activity, so she dropped baby in my lap while asking me if I wanted to watch her. I told her that her request for me to watch the baby didn't seem like a request at all since the baby was on my lap before you finished the question. She got angry about me telling her no, snatched the baby out of my arms, and said "fine I'll just hold her then." Almost like an adult tantrum kind of a thing. I asked for clarification about it and she began to insult me again. I said, "you're insulting me please stop" to which she replied, "no I'm not."
The reason I bring this up is not to figure out what to do tonight, we'll be fine, just need to cool off a bit. What my concern is that I'm not in touch with my Taker? I'm really not sure, but it revolves around me not telling my wife "no" enough. I walk around saying, "sure" or "ok" all day and at some point I've had enough of it. My wife knows that it bothers me that she asks me to do so many things for her. To her credit she has gotten better, but today was an all out "askathon" and I often times feel taken advantage of when this occurs. The requests I suppose are SD's? I mean they are not rude, there are just so many of them. Today I honestly feel like I've maxed out my ability to handle any more, "can you's".
Anyway, she went upstairs to shower, insulted me one more time on the way up, then told me she wasn't gonna fight with me? I'm sure everything will be fine, I'm just kind of disappointed.
Hill, you remember the beginning of Love Busters, right? The wife acted inappropriately, with love busters, because she wasn't being honest about what she could handle on a daily basis. Maybe y'all can brainstorm what you want status quo to look like.
Is there a reason like colic why the baby needs to be held all the time? My older daughter loved to sit and hold the baby, more than the baby wanted, LOL. Maybe one of your kids enjoys this? Maybe you have a swing or a walker the baby likes to sit in?
This stage is *so* short, you remember with the other ones. The idea is to make all your interactions positive ones that grow your love for each other. What's going well? Does baby sleep through the night?
While you're there you can remind her that Hill needs lots of SF!!!
DJ alert, Hill.
ETA: When a wife does this, we call it "nagging."
Wife and I just got into it a bit. Not a huge fight but it was very difficult. She insulted me repeatedly, told me my complaint was invalid, etc. It stems around me saying "no" to her. I was doing something important to me(posting on this forum), she felt what she needed to do trumped my activity, so she dropped baby in my lap while asking me if I wanted to watch her. I told her that her request for me to watch the baby didn't seem like a request at all since the baby was on my lap before you finished the question. She got angry about me telling her no, snatched the baby out of my arms, and said "fine I'll just hold her then." Almost like an adult tantrum kind of a thing. I asked for clarification about it and she began to insult me again. I said, "you're insulting me please stop" to which she replied, "no I'm not."
The reason I bring this up is not to figure out what to do tonight, we'll be fine, just need to cool off a bit. What my concern is that I'm not in touch with my Taker? I'm really not sure, but it revolves around me not telling my wife "no" enough. I walk around saying, "sure" or "ok" all day and at some point I've had enough of it. My wife knows that it bothers me that she asks me to do so many things for her. To her credit she has gotten better, but today was an all out "askathon" and I often times feel taken advantage of when this occurs. The requests I suppose are SD's? I mean they are not rude, there are just so many of them. Today I honestly feel like I've maxed out my ability to handle any more, "can you's".
Anyway, she went upstairs to shower, insulted me one more time on the way up, then told me she wasn't gonna fight with me? I'm sure everything will be fine, I'm just kind of disappointed.
That's a lot of issues here, Hilltopper.
First, a reminder not to try to tell each other about disrespectful judgments (such as insults) on the fly. Typically most couples can't negotiate this on the fly, at least according to our coach from Dr. Harley. Are you guys using the DJ forms? Prisca tells me she's asked this a number of times and never received an answer.
Second, saying that your wife is having an adult tantrum is a disrespectful judgment. I know you qualified it by saying "almost," but the fact is it doesn't make a difference to your wife's Love Bank.
Third, remember the Policy of Joint Agreement. Obviously your wife didn't want you posting on the board at that point in time. So when that happens, put what you're doing aside and negotiate until you come to an arrangement you are both enthusiastic about. Obviously that's going to be difficult due to the continued presence of disrespectful judgments on both your parts, but at the very least since you can detect that she's not enthusiastic about you posting, stop at that point.
Finally, I don't think you have a problem being in touch with your Taker at all. I think you're just still involved in some disrespectful judgments (and so is she) and the level of care you're providing for each other is not yet enough to fill the love bank accounts, especially with the continued presence of disrespectful judgments. The solution is to end the love busters and tighten up your performance to fill your account in her love bank faster ... she will respond, I promise.
And just a reminder that the program doesn't work if you don't follow it. For example, it doesn't work if you don't eliminate disrespectful judgments. Like the following:
she felt what she needed to do trumped my activity,
Deciding what she felt is a disrespectful judgment. "Trumped" sounds pretty disrespectful as well.
so she dropped baby in my lap while asking me if I wanted to watch her. I told her that her request for me to watch the baby didn't seem like a request at all since the baby was on my lap before you finished the question.
I really think this was kind of disrespectful on your part as well. It seems to me a better approach would be to simply so "no" if you really have to. Or let her know what you were doing and have a discussion negotiating who is going to do what. No need to judge the way she made the request.
Almost like an adult tantrum kind of a thing.
As I already noted, this is a disrespectful judgment. You are saying she's acting like a child, and I promise you noone wants to hear that from their spouse.
My wife knows that it bothers me that she asks me to do so many things for her.
DJ: "my wife knows." You are claiming to read her mind.
And also ... if she's not making demands, requests in a marriage are good!!!! You can't have a relationship of mutual care if you aren't making requests of each other.
To her credit she has gotten better, but today was an all out "askathon"
Don't get so hyperbolic, that's a DJ.
and I often times feel taken advantage of when this occurs. The requests I suppose are SD's? I mean they are not rude, there are just so many of them. Today I honestly feel like I've maxed out my ability to handle any more, "can you's".
Then just say "no" instead of judging the way she makes her requests, starting a distracting discussion about her insulting you (instead of just noting it on the DJ form for the next week), etc.
A question: do you want to have a relationship of mutual care?
And just a reminder that the program doesn't work if you don't follow it. For example, it doesn't work if you don't eliminate disrespectful judgments. Like the following:
she felt what she needed to do trumped my activity,
Deciding what she felt is a disrespectful judgment. "Trumped" sounds pretty disrespectful as well.
so she dropped baby in my lap while asking me if I wanted to watch her. I told her that her request for me to watch the baby didn't seem like a request at all since the baby was on my lap before you finished the question.
I really think this was kind of disrespectful on your part as well. It seems to me a better approach would be to simply so "no" if you really have to. Or let her know what you were doing and have a discussion negotiating who is going to do what. No need to judge the way she made the request.
Almost like an adult tantrum kind of a thing.
As I already noted, this is a disrespectful judgment. You are saying she's acting like a child, and I promise you noone wants to hear that from their spouse.
My wife knows that it bothers me that she asks me to do so many things for her.
DJ: "my wife knows." You are claiming to read her mind.
And also ... if she's not making demands, requests in a marriage are good!!!! You can't have a relationship of mutual care if you aren't making requests of each other.
To her credit she has gotten better, but today was an all out "askathon"
Don't get so hyperbolic, that's a DJ.
and I often times feel taken advantage of when this occurs. The requests I suppose are SD's? I mean they are not rude, there are just so many of them. Today I honestly feel like I've maxed out my ability to handle any more, "can you's".
Then just say "no" instead of judging the way she makes her requests, starting a distracting discussion about her insulting you (instead of just noting it on the DJ form for the next week), etc.
A question: do you want to have a relationship of mutual care?
I think the solution involves me learning how to ask my wife for things that are my needs. As it stands today I ask for almost nothing aside from a pot of coffee. It also involves me dealing with her saying "no" better than I do now. I take "no" as rejection. When I feel rejected, I stop asking. My plan is to build confidence in asking for my needs to be met by starting small. I can't come out and ask for SF as a starting point, I would be better off asking for coffee and go from there. It seems silly that I need to build confidence in asking my wife for things, but who cares, it is what it is and I need to deal with it.
We are not using the worksheet for LB's, I'm gonna start now.
You said something about your wife asking you to do a bunch of stuff. Are these house hold repairs, cleaning projects?
You might start by asking your wife if there is anything she needs you to do that day. I like 'honey do' lists as it's a guide to get things done that my wife feels is important.
I agree that she shouldn't have just dumped the kiddo on your lap. But before you sit down and start posting, you might say "hey, I'm going to get on the computer for a bit. Is that cool or do you need help with anything?"
And don't just throw out LBs on the fly because you two can't seem to handle it yet. But I do think you have a right to say, "I would appreciate it if you stop snapping/raising your voice/yelling at me". She may not feel that way but you don't have to engage in an argument. Just state how you feel and go on your way.
I think the solution involves me learning how to ask my wife for things that are my needs. As it stands today I ask for almost nothing aside from a pot of coffee.
Is this your perception or would your wife see it the same way? Typically how we view ourselves is different. For example, you feel like your wife engaged you in a 'askathon'. Perhaps she didn't see it this way and felt she had just asked you to do a few things. However you felt she has asked you to do a ton of stuff.
Hill-
Please don't take this as a 2x4, I know you don't like those, just thought maybe a mom's point of view might be helpful. Markos and KT are giving you great info. And maybe you had already been caring for all 3 children for 12 hours straight when above incident happened. I realize I don't know all the details.
Do you guys have any sort of agreement on child care responsibilities? I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) you have a job ~ 40 hours/week and Grace is a SAHM. Is she considered responsible for the kids 24/7 unless you agree to take a shift (eg- she is out for a run) or do you split the responsibility for the time you are not at work?
I think it is hard to understand how overwhelming the 24/7 nature of child care responsibility can be, and I think telling her "no" about caring for your own child could really undermine what you are hoping to accomplish-- a wife madly in love with you who is responsive to your overtures for SF.
Perhaps the division of child care responsibilities on the weekend would be topic of POJA, but might be too complex for one of the initial tries?
EmilyAnn
Hill-
Please don't take this as a 2x4, I know you don't like those, just thought maybe a mom's point of view might be helpful. Markos and KT are giving you great info. And maybe you had already been caring for all 3 children for 12 hours straight when above incident happened. I realize I don't know all the details.
Do you guys have any sort of agreement on child care responsibilities? I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) you have a job ~ 40 hours/week and Grace is a SAHM. Is she considered responsible for the kids 24/7 unless you agree to take a shift (eg- she is out for a run) or do you split the responsibility for the time you are not at work?
I think it is hard to understand how overwhelming the 24/7 nature of child care responsibility can be, and I think telling her "no" about caring for your own child could really undermine what you are hoping to accomplish-- a wife madly in love with you who is responsive to your overtures for SF.
Perhaps the division of child care responsibilities on the weekend would be topic of POJA, but might be too complex for one of the initial tries?
EmilyAnn
We split the duties when I'm not working, in fact I tend to watch them more when she has things to do. I'm likely different from a lot of Dads, I'm very hands on and spend a lot of time with them cause I enjoy it. Part of what I brought up before that I got 2x4'd on was that she says she has "so much to do." Much of what she has to do is not things like laundry, it is more "projects" which is her term not mine. These "projects" are important to her, I get that, but it takes a toll on the marriage because she has so many things on her plate. In fact these "projects" get her stressed out. She enjoys gardening and that is fine. But describing taking out one plant and putting in another as a "chore" I just don't think is an honest statement. It is her hobby, not a chore. Her hobby is spent without me, while I'm taking care of the kids. I know this must be a DJ, but I don't know how else to describe it. We've had this discussion in the past, but I NEVER bring it up now as it counter-productive.
Hill-
Please don't take this as a 2x4, I know you don't like those, just thought maybe a mom's point of view might be helpful. Markos and KT are giving you great info. And maybe you had already been caring for all 3 children for 12 hours straight when above incident happened. I realize I don't know all the details.
Do you guys have any sort of agreement on child care responsibilities? I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) you have a job ~ 40 hours/week and Grace is a SAHM. Is she considered responsible for the kids 24/7 unless you agree to take a shift (eg- she is out for a run) or do you split the responsibility for the time you are not at work?
I think it is hard to understand how overwhelming the 24/7 nature of child care responsibility can be, and I think telling her "no" about caring for your own child could really undermine what you are hoping to accomplish-- a wife madly in love with you who is responsive to your overtures for SF.
Perhaps the division of child care responsibilities on the weekend would be topic of POJA, but might be too complex for one of the initial tries?
EmilyAnn
We split the duties when I'm not working, in fact I tend to watch them more when she has things to do. I'm likely different from a lot of Dads, I'm very hands on and spend a lot of time with them cause I enjoy it. Part of what I brought up before that I got 2x4'd on was that she says she has "so much to do." Much of what she has to do is not things like laundry, it is more "projects" which is her term not mine. These "projects" are important to her, I get that, but it takes a toll on the marriage because she has so many things on her plate. In fact these "projects" get her stressed out. She enjoys gardening and that is fine. But describing taking out one plant and putting in another as a "chore" I just don't think is an honest statement. It is her hobby, not a chore. Her hobby is spent without me, while I'm taking care of the kids. I know this must be a DJ, but I don't know how else to describe it. We've had this discussion in the past, but I NEVER bring it up now as it counter-productive.
The last sentence in this may be the most constructive string of words in your post.
The rest, Hill, is a nice, long string of disrespectful judgements.
I used to do a lot of that, too. DJ/DH are probably my two biggest LBs.
The
only thing you can examine here, is if these "projects" fall in to AH or IB, because if they do, then they need to be addressed.
HT, how is the UA time looking? Are you two sitting down and scheduling it? How many hrs did you get last week?
Hill-
Please don't take this as a 2x4, I know you don't like those, just thought maybe a mom's point of view might be helpful. Markos and KT are giving you great info. And maybe you had already been caring for all 3 children for 12 hours straight when above incident happened. I realize I don't know all the details.
Do you guys have any sort of agreement on child care responsibilities? I am assuming (correct me if I am wrong) you have a job ~ 40 hours/week and Grace is a SAHM. Is she considered responsible for the kids 24/7 unless you agree to take a shift (eg- she is out for a run) or do you split the responsibility for the time you are not at work?
I think it is hard to understand how overwhelming the 24/7 nature of child care responsibility can be, and I think telling her "no" about caring for your own child could really undermine what you are hoping to accomplish-- a wife madly in love with you who is responsive to your overtures for SF.
Perhaps the division of child care responsibilities on the weekend would be topic of POJA, but might be too complex for one of the initial tries?
EmilyAnn
We split the duties when I'm not working, in fact I tend to watch them more when she has things to do. I'm likely different from a lot of Dads, I'm very hands on and spend a lot of time with them cause I enjoy it. Part of what I brought up before that I got 2x4'd on was that she says she has "so much to do." Much of what she has to do is not things like laundry, it is more "projects" which is her term not mine. These "projects" are important to her, I get that, but it takes a toll on the marriage because she has so many things on her plate. In fact these "projects" get her stressed out. She enjoys gardening and that is fine. But describing taking out one plant and putting in another as a "chore" I just don't think is an honest statement. It is her hobby, not a chore. Her hobby is spent without me, while I'm taking care of the kids. I know this must be a DJ, but I don't know how else to describe it. We've had this discussion in the past, but I NEVER bring it up now as it counter-productive.
The last sentence in this may be the most constructive string of words in your post.
The rest, Hill, is a nice, long string of disrespectful judgements.
I used to do a lot of that, too. DJ/DH are probably my two biggest LBs.
The
only thing you can examine here, is if these "projects" fall in to AH or IB, because if they do, then they need to be addressed.
I agree they are a strong of DJs. I struggle then with meeting her needs vs my own happiness. On the one hand, watching the kids so she can pursue her interests makes her happy. If I'm the one making it possible for her to be happy, I would think that would be a LB deposit. On the other hand though, I feel like a "paycheck" and a "babysitter" on the weekends especially. We are not yet to a point of compromise or negotiation. We are just trying to meet needs and avoid LBs. In fact I'm down right terrified to try and negotiate with my wife. I feel like I have no power in this relationship, I do whatever she wants.
We filled out our ENQ and read them to each other. It was nice and enlightening. I learned some things and so did she. I'm not so sure how to implement those needs however. I'm doing my best to meet hers, I guess I can't do anything that will cause her to meet mine. Affection is gone although she did approach and kiss me this morning which was surprising and nice so hopefully that is a sign.
HT, how is the UA time looking? Are you two sitting down and scheduling it? How many hrs did you get last week?
We got a few hours in, one night of scrabble, one long walk. Other than that just two tired people watching TV together. This weekend was spent at a friends house Saturday and a pool party Monday. I've repeatedly said I'd like to plan for UA, but I never get anywhere with it. I don't want to demand we plan it, but all I can do is ask.
The enq is supposed to show you how to meet those needs because it shows how you want them met.
Stop being terrified. It will cause her to lose respect for you. And when a woman loses respect for her husband/a man, they are in trouble.
If you two are not getting your time in, then she should not be running outside gardening while you're inside with the kids. How old is the baby exactly? You need to learn to speak up (without being disrespectful) and let her know that certain things make you unhappy.
Well .. I might do that .. but one thing I would like to chime in on was a few (many) pages back you mentioned a vasectomy. I would go get that done ... possibly your wife is nervous about getting preggo again and condoms/birth control are a bit of a turn off for her. Its ALOT easier to SF when you know your not having any more kids and you have made sure (by vasectomy) that the chances are NULL to her getting preggo again. ONce you do this .. you will find that your sex will be alot more spntaneous becasue you dont have to go "do you got protection hun?" and waste those few extra moments to "put one on" in the heat of the moment ... its alot nicer to just not have to stop and lose your "momentum".
Get er done ... asap if you dont plan on any more kids ... you wife will love you for it! .. do it on a friday (mid afternoon) then sit on a bag of frozen veggies for the weekend and youll be back to work on monday NP. Then a week from then you'll be good to go! And that week off you give your wife (unless you plan it around her period) will give your wife some "relief of pressure" until you guys are in tune again.
MNG
Yep this is our plan! By the way I bought a bottle of Maca Root the other day. My wife isn't down with taking some yet, but it appears that it is great for both men and women. Do you take it? If so what changes have you seen in yourself? I was specifically interested in it effects on skin(mine is very dry) and adrenal glands. Energy is a big problem for me.
Yes I do take it. What i noticed was I had more energy at the end of the day. . my recovery time when i work out is reduced by alot .. and anxiety and stress is reduced a signifigantly and my drive for sex is not as strong and demanding as it would be otherwise. Which is probably due to possibly having too much testosterone .. and the maca leveled me off to some degree... now that doesnt mean I cant be persuaded to sex ... or that I dont want it .. but the "urge" is no longer as strong or taxing on my mind.
p.s. Maca takes about 5 days of full dosage to notice its effects. I take 1/2 the dosage in the morning .. and the other 1/2 at lunch time. On Fridays I would take my dosage late in the afternoon so i have TONS of energy on friday evenings! .. also its a cycle .. 3 weeks on .. and one week off. MY wife stops maca when her period starts and I stop aswell .. we start and stop together.
MNG
What types of things did you two do while you were falling in love? Try to ask her to do these things with you.
I know you mentioned the walk was enjoyable, maybe you could start there, ask her if she would be willing to have a sitter come to the house 1-2 times a week for an hour or so so that the two of you can go on a long walk. Maybe this will help to ease her into using a babysitter... (Make sure this UA time is very enjoyable for her if it happens!)
I am going to recommend that if in a few weeks time if she is still refusing to schedule the UA time with you & refusing to use babysitters that you email back the radio show. (Don't threaten her with this or anything along those lines) I believe Dr Harley's advice for you was based on your comments that she was willing to spend UA time with you but finding good babysitters was an issue.
Well .. I might do that .. but one thing I would like to chime in on was a few (many) pages back you mentioned a vasectomy. I would go get that done ... possibly your wife is nervous about getting preggo again and condoms/birth control are a bit of a turn off for her. Its ALOT easier to SF when you know your not having any more kids and you have made sure (by vasectomy) that the chances are NULL to her getting preggo again. ONce you do this .. you will find that your sex will be alot more spntaneous becasue you dont have to go "do you got protection hun?" and waste those few extra moments to "put one on" in the heat of the moment ... its alot nicer to just not have to stop and lose your "momentum".
Get er done ... asap if you dont plan on any more kids ... you wife will love you for it! .. do it on a friday (mid afternoon) then sit on a bag of frozen veggies for the weekend and youll be back to work on monday NP. Then a week from then you'll be good to go! And that week off you give your wife (unless you plan it around her period) will give your wife some "relief of pressure" until you guys are in tune again.
MNG
Yep this is our plan! By the way I bought a bottle of Maca Root the other day. My wife isn't down with taking some yet, but it appears that it is great for both men and women. Do you take it? If so what changes have you seen in yourself? I was specifically interested in it effects on skin(mine is very dry) and adrenal glands. Energy is a big problem for me.
Yes I do take it. What i noticed was I had more energy at the end of the day. . my recovery time when i work out is reduced by alot .. and anxiety and stress is reduced a signifigantly and my drive for sex is not as strong and demanding as it would be otherwise. Which is probably due to possibly having too much testosterone .. and the maca leveled me off to some degree... now that doesnt mean I cant be persuaded to sex ... or that I dont want it .. but the "urge" is no longer as strong or taxing on my mind.
p.s. Maca takes about 5 days of full dosage to notice its effects. I take 1/2 the dosage in the morning .. and the other 1/2 at lunch time. On Fridays I would take my dosage late in the afternoon so i have TONS of energy on friday evenings! .. also its a cycle .. 3 weeks on .. and one week off. MY wife stops maca when her period starts and I stop aswell .. we start and stop together.
MNG
Ok just started this morning. Would you advise against taking it at night? I have problems sleeping anyways.
I advise you to not take it at night .. (especially after its effects start working) becasue it could keep you up longer than you want. Fridays is not so bad (at least for me) becasue I can sleep a bit extra on Saturday morning to spend extra time in the evening with my wife on a Friday night. (my daughter gets up with my son and makes him breakfast and they play Wii together till we get up).
Did you get capsules? or Powder? Hopefully caps .. since they remove the starch from it and leave just the maca ingredient. MY caps have 750mg in each one and I take 4 a day (2 in the morning with breakfast and 2 with lunch) as per the bottle suggests and some Fridays I will take all 4 at lunch or late afternoon.
Also ... Do you have a wind up baby swing? BOTH my children LOVED their swing! .. THey would nap in it .. and have no problems chilling in it if we had to do chores etc for a bit.
I advise you to not take it at night .. (especially after its effects start working) becasue it could keep you up longer than you want. Fridays is not so bad (at least for me) becasue I can sleep a bit extra on Saturday morning to spend extra time in the evening with my wife on a Friday night. (my daughter gets up with my son and makes him breakfast and they play Wii together till we get up).
Did you get capsules? or Powder? Hopefully caps .. since they remove the starch from it and leave just the maca ingredient. MY caps have 750mg in each one and I take 4 a day (2 in the morning with breakfast and 2 with lunch) as per the bottle suggests and some Fridays I will take all 4 at lunch or late afternoon.
Also ... Do you have a wind up baby swing? BOTH my children LOVED their swing! .. THey would nap in it .. and have no problems chilling in it if we had to do chores etc for a bit.
I got capsules. I feel great today actually, which is day three. Went to bed about ten, slept the entire night till 3am, stirred for an hour, then fell asleep again till 6am. Normally I'd be feeling so tired after waking up for an hour at 3am, but right now I feel pretty alert. It also says it is good for anxiety which is good, so I'm excited to see if I feel less anxious during the day and in the middle of the night.
We have a swing, exersaucer, she sits up with toys, etc. She is teething though which means she is more needy and we can't get her down in her crib yet. Our first child was the same way, would scream for 45 minutes straight until she would pass out and sleep of exhaustion. Much of this will change as baby gets older, but in the mean time it is very tough for both my wife and I.
What types of things did you two do while you were falling in love? Try to ask her to do these things with you.
I know you mentioned the walk was enjoyable, maybe you could start there, ask her if she would be willing to have a sitter come to the house 1-2 times a week for an hour or so so that the two of you can go on a long walk. Maybe this will help to ease her into using a babysitter... (Make sure this UA time is very enjoyable for her if it happens!)
I am going to recommend that if in a few weeks time if she is still refusing to schedule the UA time with you & refusing to use babysitters that you email back the radio show. (Don't threaten her with this or anything along those lines) I believe Dr Harley's advice for you was based on your comments that she was willing to spend UA time with you but finding good babysitters was an issue.
Susie Q, I think both my wife and I are spending more time that we did before which is a good thing! We are aware that we need to "plan" UA time more than we currently are now which is where the sticking point is. I've felt for a long time I'm not really the one to plan our social calendar, my wife has always assumed that role. Because of this I not only am not in the practice of deciding when and where we spend UA time, but when I do suggest it get a bit of push back at times. Its not an, "I don't want to", it is more of a "we'll see..." That is where I don't know what to do next. I take that as kind of a push off. On top of this the babysitting relationships include her parents, a daughter of her friend, and potentially two other of her friends she has so it would seem odd for me to circumvent my wife's relationships to plan the date, you know?
It's good that you are both aware that you need to start planning the UA time.
Look at this quote by Dr Harley from the Five Steps Workbook (pg 182):
A point I make repeatedly in both Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs is that romantic love cannot be created or sustained without time for undivided attention. You don't have to be a genius to discover that unless you schedule time to meet each other's emotional needs, it won't get done.
If either my H or myself said "we'll see" it wouldn't happen. We sit down with our schedules on Sun or Mon and we try to plan out the week with at least one date night. Then we line up our babysitter for our weekly date night.
Approach your W and respectfully request that you two start scheduling your UA time weekly, say on every Sunday night so that it can become a habit. Be upbeat and don't approach her when either of you is in a bad mood. Let us know what she thinks of doing this.
I not only am not in the practice of deciding when and where we spend UA time, but when I do suggest it get a bit of push back at times. Its not an, "I don't want to", it is more of a "we'll see..." That is where I don't know what to do next. I take that as kind of a push off.
How you respond to this is crucial.
If you are like me, it worries and frustrates you when you feel like your marriage needs UA time and your wife is not enthusiastic about having it. And if you are like me your old instinctive way to react to this is with demands, disrespect, or anger.
So of course the first thing to do is to remain calm and pay close, close attention to everything you do or say to make sure that nothing you do could be construed as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. By your wife or by anyone who might here the story later. If you know that we would likely fault you for being disrespectful, then you probably are being disrespectful!
Invite your wife to UA-time activities with you. If she declines, accept that graciously. You might consider offering her several options to choose from.
If you want your wife to start buying into this UA time idea, you are going to need to change the way you are going about it. It is obvious to me that you are pressuring her to do it. You see it as urgent (and it is, because it's crucial for your marriage), and so you get easily frustrated when she doesn't seem to be moving toward this goal in the way you would expect ... AND IN THAT FRUSTRATION YOU ARE MAKING CRUCIAL MISTAKES THAT AMOUNT TO PRESSURING HER.
Take the pressure off.
Believe me, the last thing you want to do is become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in trying to get your wife to buy into the Marriage Builders program. This is a sure fire way to NOT get what your marriage needs. You are going to have to be respectful, gentle, attractive, and you are going to have to graciously accept "no" for an answer. Your wife has good reasons for not being enthusiastic about this program. You need to respect that perspective, look for the value in her perspective. Find out what those reasons are. This is crucial information. There is value for you in this perspective of your wife.
Do be aware that the Marriage Builders program can't be "cherry picked." You can't implement some parts of the program and leave others out and expect to get something that works well. You've got to have the whole enchilada.
Because of your frustration, you are still falling back to instinctive Taker strategies of demands, disrespect, and anger. I understand that frustration is mounting now, possibly worse than ever before, but you have got to manage that frustration and force yourself to calm down ALL THE TIME in order to solve your problems.
One thing I might mention: UA time doesn't "count" when you have kids with you (unless they are sleeping), but if your wife is reluctant to leave the baby with a babysitter, by all means, take the baby and get a sitter for the other kids!! That is certainly better than not having a date at all. Take every opportunity to meet emotional needs and make love bank deposits. You will be able to be more intimate with her (make bigger love bank deposits) with just one child present than you can with all children present, and you will be paving the way for a regular habit of spending time together that will eventually be there when your wife feels the youngest child is ready to be with a babysitter.
On top of this the babysitting relationships include her parents, a daughter of her friend, and potentially two other of her friends she has so it would seem odd for me to circumvent my wife's relationships to plan the date, you know?
I don't know about that. I call my mother-in-law and ask her to babysit sometimes.
She is especially amenable to doing this if I'm going to plan a surprise date for Prisca. Most people understand the value of a couple spending time alone together, and it doesn't hurt to step outside of your "comfort zone" and ask.
Dr. Harley says that a man tends to make big love bank deposits if he just shows some initiative and plans a date with his wife if he makes the arrangements, including babysitting. You were advised to do this pages and pages ago, and yet you haven't done it. No wonder things aren't working well, yet ... you skip over a lot of the advice. When are you going to show this initiative and plan a date?
Call one of those friends and say "I was hoping to plan a date with Grace. Would you be available on X? Really? Great! I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to see if she's interested, and then call you back to confirm. I'm not sure if we'll be taking the baby or not." Then tell Grace you've arranged babysitting for X night and tell her you'd like to take her out. Give her the option of taking the baby or not. Give her the option of saying yes or no. Give her some selected date activities to choose from, and give her the option of proposing her own suggestions.
You are going to have to learn the skill of making a date with your wife!
It's good that you are both aware that you need to start planning the UA time.
Look at this quote by Dr Harley from the Five Steps Workbook (pg 182):
A point I make repeatedly in both Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs is that romantic love cannot be created or sustained without time for undivided attention. You don't have to be a genius to discover that unless you schedule time to meet each other's emotional needs, it won't get done.
If either my H or myself said "we'll see" it wouldn't happen. We sit down with our schedules on Sun or Mon and we try to plan out the week with at least one date night. Then we line up our babysitter for our weekly date night.
Approach your W and respectfully request that you two start scheduling your UA time weekly, say on every Sunday night so that it can become a habit. Be upbeat and don't approach her when either of you is in a bad mood. Let us know what she thinks of doing this.
Ok fair enough, here is what I did:
I set a Gmail calendar reminder every single Sunday for 730pm, which is when the kids go down, that goes both to my wife via email and Text that reads, "Hill/Grace Plan UA time + One Date". This way its not really ME bugging her about it, it is instead the CALENDAR reminding her we need to do it and plan for a babysitter.
It's good that you are both aware that you need to start planning the UA time.
Look at this quote by Dr Harley from the Five Steps Workbook (pg 182):
A point I make repeatedly in both Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs is that romantic love cannot be created or sustained without time for undivided attention. You don't have to be a genius to discover that unless you schedule time to meet each other's emotional needs, it won't get done.
If either my H or myself said "we'll see" it wouldn't happen. We sit down with our schedules on Sun or Mon and we try to plan out the week with at least one date night. Then we line up our babysitter for our weekly date night.
Approach your W and respectfully request that you two start scheduling your UA time weekly, say on every Sunday night so that it can become a habit. Be upbeat and don't approach her when either of you is in a bad mood. Let us know what she thinks of doing this.
Ok fair enough, here is what I did:
I set a Gmail calendar reminder every single Sunday for 730pm, which is when the kids go down, that goes both to my wife via email and Text that reads, "Hill/Grace Plan UA time + One Date". This way its not really ME bugging her about it, it is instead the CALENDAR reminding her we need to do it and plan for a babysitter.
What I think is that you came up with a great plan to avoid having to ask your wife how she feels and respectfully persuade her that UA time, dates, and babysitting are a good thing. And so I don't think you will have any long term success with this approach, because you are ignoring the important issue of her feelings and her good reasons for not being enthusiastic about all this.
Hill, you are not 'circumventing her relationships' to call her family or friends to ask for a favor. Do you two keep your friends entirely separate from each other?
I not only am not in the practice of deciding when and where we spend UA time, but when I do suggest it get a bit of push back at times. Its not an, "I don't want to", it is more of a "we'll see..." That is where I don't know what to do next. I take that as kind of a push off.
How you respond to this is crucial.
If you are like me, it worries and frustrates you when you feel like your marriage needs UA time and your wife is not enthusiastic about having it. And if you are like me your old instinctive way to react to this is with demands, disrespect, or anger.
So of course the first thing to do is to remain calm and pay close, close attention to everything you do or say to make sure that nothing you do could be construed as demanding, disrespectful, or angry. By your wife or by anyone who might here the story later. If you know that we would likely fault you for being disrespectful, then you probably are being disrespectful!
Invite your wife to UA-time activities with you. If she declines, accept that graciously. You might consider offering her several options to choose from.
If you want your wife to start buying into this UA time idea, you are going to need to change the way you are going about it. It is obvious to me that you are pressuring her to do it. You see it as urgent (and it is, because it's crucial for your marriage), and so you get easily frustrated when she doesn't seem to be moving toward this goal in the way you would expect ... AND IN THAT FRUSTRATION YOU ARE MAKING CRUCIAL MISTAKES THAT AMOUNT TO PRESSURING HER.
Take the pressure off.
Believe me, the last thing you want to do is become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in trying to get your wife to buy into the Marriage Builders program. This is a sure fire way to NOT get what your marriage needs. You are going to have to be respectful, gentle, attractive, and you are going to have to graciously accept "no" for an answer. Your wife has good reasons for not being enthusiastic about this program. You need to respect that perspective, look for the value in her perspective. Find out what those reasons are. This is crucial information. There is value for you in this perspective of your wife.
Do be aware that the Marriage Builders program can't be "cherry picked." You can't implement some parts of the program and leave others out and expect to get something that works well. You've got to have the whole enchilada.
Because of your frustration, you are still falling back to instinctive Taker strategies of demands, disrespect, and anger. I understand that frustration is mounting now, possibly worse than ever before, but you have got to manage that frustration and force yourself to calm down ALL THE TIME in order to solve your problems.
One thing I might mention: UA time doesn't "count" when you have kids with you (unless they are sleeping), but if your wife is reluctant to leave the baby with a babysitter, by all means, take the baby and get a sitter for the other kids!! That is certainly better than not having a date at all. Take every opportunity to meet emotional needs and make love bank deposits. You will be able to be more intimate with her (make bigger love bank deposits) with just one child present than you can with all children present, and you will be paving the way for a regular habit of spending time together that will eventually be there when your wife feels the youngest child is ready to be with a babysitter.
On top of this the babysitting relationships include her parents, a daughter of her friend, and potentially two other of her friends she has so it would seem odd for me to circumvent my wife's relationships to plan the date, you know?
I don't know about that. I call my mother-in-law and ask her to babysit sometimes.
She is especially amenable to doing this if I'm going to plan a surprise date for Prisca. Most people understand the value of a couple spending time alone together, and it doesn't hurt to step outside of your "comfort zone" and ask.
Dr. Harley says that a man tends to make big love bank deposits if he just shows some initiative and plans a date with his wife if he makes the arrangements, including babysitting. You were advised to do this pages and pages ago, and yet you haven't done it. No wonder things aren't working well, yet ... you skip over a lot of the advice. When are you going to show this initiative and plan a date?
Call one of those friends and say "I was hoping to plan a date with Grace. Would you be available on X? Really? Great! I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to see if she's interested, and then call you back to confirm. I'm not sure if we'll be taking the baby or not." Then tell Grace you've arranged babysitting for X night and tell her you'd like to take her out. Give her the option of taking the baby or not. Give her the option of saying yes or no. Give her some selected date activities to choose from, and give her the option of proposing her own suggestions.
You are going to have to learn the skill of making a date with your wife!
I called my sister to arrange it about a month ago. My wife didn't want any part of it because it was during the week. She has planned dates for us during the week, but in this particular case she was not interested in it. I'm just not the type of person when told no to say, "well how about now?", "well how about now then?" In light of that, I suppose I could call the in-laws and try to plan it. She has expressed that I take the initiative to plan things, but I don't ever enjoy how my initiative pans out. I mean I made coffee for her this morning and the first thing out of her mouth was, "It's too strong." So who wants to plan a date or come up with anything when you'll just be criticized for the way you did it, how you made it, the time you planned it, etc? So to protect myself I've become a person that doesn't take initiative on anything at all because at least I know if I haven't done anything then I can't be criticized for anything. My wife sees this lack of initiative as being "lazy" or "just not caring", but this is sooooo not the case. I like to be in charge, I like to be confident in the decisions or plans I make. The truth is I'm just not any more so I just wait for marching orders and do my best to not screw them up. This is why I feel like things are so out of my hands, so I'm trying to come up with the courage and strength to plan things or do things for my wife anyways, even knowing I might be criticized, all the while attempting to "thicken my skin" so I can more easily brush it off. That is easier said than done.
My wife is concerned that I paint her as this horrible human being on this forum. She is not a horrible human being, in fact she is an amazing human being, well loved by her friends, awesome with our children, outgoing, and beautiful. I guess I just look at the point we have gotten to and I ask myself how did we get this way? I learn almost every day about how spouses interact, what actions or inactions can deposit or withdrawal units from the LB, how things take time to repair, etc. I can't learn fast enough, and every time I figure something out I so much wish that I had already learned that a long time ago, you know?
It's good that you are both aware that you need to start planning the UA time.
Look at this quote by Dr Harley from the Five Steps Workbook (pg 182):
A point I make repeatedly in both Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs is that romantic love cannot be created or sustained without time for undivided attention. You don't have to be a genius to discover that unless you schedule time to meet each other's emotional needs, it won't get done.
If either my H or myself said "we'll see" it wouldn't happen. We sit down with our schedules on Sun or Mon and we try to plan out the week with at least one date night. Then we line up our babysitter for our weekly date night.
Approach your W and respectfully request that you two start scheduling your UA time weekly, say on every Sunday night so that it can become a habit. Be upbeat and don't approach her when either of you is in a bad mood. Let us know what she thinks of doing this.
Ok fair enough, here is what I did:
I set a Gmail calendar reminder every single Sunday for 730pm, which is when the kids go down, that goes both to my wife via email and Text that reads, "Hill/Grace Plan UA time + One Date". This way its not really ME bugging her about it, it is instead the CALENDAR reminding her we need to do it and plan for a babysitter.
What I think is that you came up with a great plan to avoid having to ask your wife how she feels and respectfully persuade her that UA time, dates, and babysitting are a good thing. And so I don't think you will have any long term success with this approach, because you are ignoring the important issue of her feelings and her good reasons for not being enthusiastic about all this.
Shoot you're right, at least about avoiding the "asking" her part. My wife feels great about UA time, dates, and she acquired a new babysitter. But since we don't plan it and we usually just "wing it", it happens much less than we want it to.
Hill, you are not 'circumventing her relationships' to call her family or friends to ask for a favor. Do you two keep your friends entirely separate from each other?
Early in this journey I asked her good friend to "take her out on the town!" I did this without Nancy knowing and it turned out great, well not the end, but my wife had a good time with her friends. I know this was not UA time, but at the time I was just trying to do something "nice". I think I could plan this during the week once a week and she'd accept it without fail every time. There are two reason I could deduce why she would accept this plan, but be less enthusiastic about UA time together. Either she knows I can watch baby when she goes out, she is comfortable with that, so feels good, OR, she just doesn't enjoy our UA time together. I don't think it is option two, which brings us back to my wife feeling good about leaving the baby with someone other than me. If it is both A and B then I'm in a world of hurt
.
I called my sister to arrange it about a month ago. My wife didn't want any part of it because it was during the week. She has planned dates for us during the week, but in this particular case she was not interested in it. I'm just not the type of person when told no to say, "well how about now?", "well how about now then?"
I am certain that patience and persistence on your part will be more attractive to Grace than giving up.
She has expressed that I take the initiative to plan things,
Valuable information!! Act on it! Don't be one of those husbands who seems to never change, or never change permanently, or never respond to what his wife says. Those are the husbands whose wives quit communicating with them altogether.
but I don't ever enjoy how my initiative pans out.
Grace is changing right now just like you, so I encourage you to keep trying, because ultimately you will like how it pans out.
"If at first you don't succeed..."
I mean I made coffee for her this morning and the first thing out of her mouth was, "It's too strong."
(Valuable information!)
So who wants to plan a date or come up with anything when you'll just be criticized for the way you did it, how you made it, the time you planned it, etc?
A guy who wants a happy, passionate marriage. That's who!!!
Right now, it's not Grace's job to keep you motivated. You know? Can you keep your eyes on the goal so you can stay motivated?
My wife sees this lack of initiative as being "lazy" or "just not caring", but this is sooooo not the case.
You are absolutely dissing your wife's point of view, here.
Around here at Marriage Builders, "care" is a verb. If you are doing nothing, then in my opinion, you are not practicing care.
I like to be in charge, I like to be confident in the decisions or plans I make. The truth is I'm just not any more so I just wait for marching orders and do my best to not screw them up.
Oh good grief. You are really asking for this:
I don't remember Marriage Builders being a plan where you do nothing.
[quoteso I'm trying to come up with the courage and strength to plan things or do things for my wife anyways,[/quote]
This is a lie you are telling yourself. You are actually procrastinating and doing nothing. There is nothing that you are actively doing in order to become more courageous or strong. You are just waiting and telling yourself that the reason you are waiting is to "come up with courage," but you don't actually have a plan to become more courageous nor are there any defined steps you are taking to become more courageous. Don't give yourself an excuse to do nothing.
Dr. Harley says men get a lot of credit for doing something, anything, even if it's not actually the right thing.
My wife is concerned that I paint her as this horrible human being on this forum.
VALUABLE INFORMATION. Listen to and respect your wife's point of view. You are doing something that bothers her, so knock it off.
I guess I just look at the point we have gotten to and I ask myself how did we get this way?
It probably has to do with you doing nothing and not moving forward on the plan to restore romantic love in your marriage.......
I learn almost every day about how spouses interact, what actions or inactions can deposit or withdrawal units from the LB, how things take time to repair, etc. I can't learn fast enough, and every time I figure something out I so much wish that I had already learned that a long time ago, you know?
Okay, info hound:
What Marriage Builders books do you own? How many have you read all the way through? How many of Dr. Harley's Q&A columns have you read?
I started reading the Q&A columns today after breaking off in the middle last year, and was surprised and delighted to see material that sure could have helped me last year to overcome problems I really didn't make any progress on until this year. I wish I learned that stuff a long time ago, you know?
I second markos on the valuable information stuff, Hill. I have the same problem here in my house...I'll voice a complaint, and rather than having it addressed, my H takes it as a criticism and shuts down. BAD move if you want to be married. If she doesn't like her coffee strong, DON'T MAKE IT STRONG. Easy! That's one of the easiest things to resolve. Do you CARE if she enjoys her coffee? Or do you care more about your own need for admiration, regardless of her feelings?
I called my sister to arrange it about a month ago. My wife didn't want any part of it because it was during the week. She has planned dates for us during the week, but in this particular case she was not interested in it. I'm just not the type of person when told no to say, "well how about now?", "well how about now then?"
I am certain that patience and persistence on your part will be more attractive to Grace than giving up.
She has expressed that I take the initiative to plan things,
Valuable information!! Act on it! Don't be one of those husbands who seems to never change, or never change permanently, or never respond to what his wife says. Those are the husbands whose wives quit communicating with them altogether.
but I don't ever enjoy how my initiative pans out.
Grace is changing right now just like you, so I encourage you to keep trying, because ultimately you will like how it pans out.
"If at first you don't succeed..."
I mean I made coffee for her this morning and the first thing out of her mouth was, "It's too strong."
(Valuable information!)
So who wants to plan a date or come up with anything when you'll just be criticized for the way you did it, how you made it, the time you planned it, etc?
A guy who wants a happy, passionate marriage. That's who!!!
Right now, it's not Grace's job to keep you motivated. You know? Can you keep your eyes on the goal so you can stay motivated?
My wife sees this lack of initiative as being "lazy" or "just not caring", but this is sooooo not the case.
You are absolutely dissing your wife's point of view, here.
Around here at Marriage Builders, "care" is a verb. If you are doing nothing, then in my opinion, you are not practicing care.
I like to be in charge, I like to be confident in the decisions or plans I make. The truth is I'm just not any more so I just wait for marching orders and do my best to not screw them up.
Oh good grief. You are really asking for this:
I don't remember Marriage Builders being a plan where you do nothing.
[quoteso I'm trying to come up with the courage and strength to plan things or do things for my wife anyways,
This is a lie you are telling yourself. You are actually procrastinating and doing nothing. There is nothing that you are actively doing in order to become more courageous or strong. You are just waiting and telling yourself that the reason you are waiting is to "come up with courage," but you don't actually have a plan to become more courageous nor are there any defined steps you are taking to become more courageous. Don't give yourself an excuse to do nothing.
Dr. Harley says men get a lot of credit for doing something, anything, even if it's not actually the right thing.
My wife is concerned that I paint her as this horrible human being on this forum.
VALUABLE INFORMATION. Listen to and respect your wife's point of view. You are doing something that bothers her, so knock it off.
I guess I just look at the point we have gotten to and I ask myself how did we get this way?
It probably has to do with you doing nothing and not moving forward on the plan to restore romantic love in your marriage.......
I learn almost every day about how spouses interact, what actions or inactions can deposit or withdrawal units from the LB, how things take time to repair, etc. I can't learn fast enough, and every time I figure something out I so much wish that I had already learned that a long time ago, you know?
Okay, info hound:
What Marriage Builders books do you own? How many have you read all the way through? How many of Dr. Harley's Q&A columns have you read?
I started reading the Q&A columns today after breaking off in the middle last year, and was surprised and delighted to see material that sure could have helped me last year to overcome problems I really didn't make any progress on until this year. I wish I learned that stuff a long time ago, you know? [/quote]
There you go again, you know my motivation more than myself? First of all its not a criticism every once in a great moon, it is constant, almost like it has to be said, must be said. It reminds me of a story a comedian told me:
A wife buys her husband a red tie and a blue tie. He is happy cause his wife did something nice for him, and she is critical, so he figured red or blue, he wins either way! He puts on the blue tie, walks out into the living room and his wife says, "Whats a matter, you don't like the red tie?"
My wife herself used the term "lazy" and "not caring", those were not my words.
I'm not lying to myself, I'm asking for help on how to better my ability to ask for stuff for my wife, and I don't know how to do it successfully yet. I specifically asked this question of Joyce Harley on a follow up again. If this skill is easy for you and you just can't understand how someone like me could struggle with it, then tell me what I can ask you or tell you that might help me learn a bit more quickly.
How many books did I read? I read 5 Way to Romantic love, LB, HNHN(almost finished), maybe 20 or so Q&A's. I'd read more but I have to re-read things a lot to take it all in. After HNHN, it will be HNHN for Parents.
So are you saying stop posting on this forum because there is a good chance my wife will read it and take offense to it? I mean I guess I could do that, but it is very therapeutic for me and I believe myself to be a better man for having been here, but I could be wrong.
I second markos on the valuable information stuff, Hill. I have the same problem here in my house...I'll voice a complaint, and rather than having it addressed, my H takes it as a criticism and shuts down. BAD move if you want to be married. If she doesn't like her coffee strong, DON'T MAKE IT STRONG. Easy! That's one of the easiest things to resolve. Do you CARE if she enjoys her coffee? Or do you care more about your own need for admiration, regardless of her feelings?
How many complaints would you say you voice to your husband on a daily basis? If he makes the cup of coffee correctly do you say nothing? Do you provide feedback that "its just the way I like it?" Does that make sense what I wrote to Markos that the criticism "must be made?" Very rarely do I feel based on my wife's comments back to me that I've done much correctly. The coffee recipe changes by the week, different bags, different flavors, sometimes dry creamer, sometimes french vanilla cream in liquid form, etc. This time it was one 1/2 scoops with three cups of water. I'll never forget it, but what about when the next flavor comes through the pipe? Dr Harley said effort is better even if you do something wrong for men. Well the feedback would point to me mostly doing things wrong, so it is very difficult to keep up that momentum day in and day out. In fact it is overwhelming. Do I care if my wife enjoys her coffee? Of course I do, I got up in the morning specifically to make us coffee to get an extra 15 minutes together of UA time. It was too strong, I offered to remake it, she declined the offer, live and learn.
I'm not picky about coffee, so when he makes it I simply thank him for doing so. My complaints are really centered around my H's IB, or when he's done other things that hurt my feelings. If you've read my thread, I've got two basic complaints right now that have smaller complaint components: he canceled our anniversary weekend away in favor of a work event involving cheerleaders, and he's in discussions with a man about doing a hobby that I don't want him to do, and he's known this for six years now. So yeah, I complain about those things. In return, I get my gifts rejected, get screamed at over the phone and hung up on. Fun!
Hill, something my dad used to say is that "no one knows what you do until you don't do it." Focus here is you do your job because that's what's expected of you. In adulthood we get very few "attaboys!"
My wife used to be the queen of DJs and AOs. I know you hear that a lot. But, really, my wife was queen. If I didn't understand what she was saying or did something she didn't like she'd clap her hands in my face and say, "Pay attention stupid!" This was a tradition of how the women treated the men in her family. Pretty soon you get to a point where you just know you're going to do something wrong even when you're tyring to do something right and it makes you stop wanting to do things.
But you can�t. At this point, you just have to eliminate your LBs and focus on meeting her needs. It�s really important to peg down those LBs. If one of the spouses (or both spouses) is irritating the other one, then doing those meeting of needs really is for not. One of the wonderful things about getting all this together is that when you do have the occasional LB it�s not really that big of a deal. You apologize, validate that what you did hurt the other spouse, and go on your way. You have to be really patient.
I like the house example. It works for nutrition, strength training, prepositions (yes, prepositions), and relationships. You two are still getting all the materials you need. There are times when you (as in you Hill) are trying to throw throw up the walls when you haven�t gotten the foundation settled yet. It takes a lot of work to make a good marriage and when your marriage has fallen to where it is now (as all of us that are here were where you are now), it takes awhile to get it back to good and then awesome. So go back and really go through the LB sheet.
As far as the coffee thing goes, maybe sit down with her and have her show you how she wants her coffee made. If she says it�s wrong, ask her what she didn�t like about it and then you can make it different next time. If she likes powdered creamer one day and liquid creamer the next day, then go buy both. I�m kinda like your wife�I�m really picky about my coffee, my wife is not. The other thing is is making her coffee on her needs list (I think this would fall under domestic support)�in other words is doing this making deposits? Don�t get me wrong, it�s important to do nice things for your spouse but if you making coffee for her isn�t important to her as far as the needs list, then go back over her ENs list and exactly what she feels is important. Make the coffee anyway�it�s a thoughtful gesture. In my case, my wife has a very very high need for DS and FC. She really loves it when I help cook and clean. But this is where I have to figure out what exactly she wants cleaned mostly. She likes the living room presentable and the kitchen clean. She also loathes laundry and since there�s 5-7 of us in the house at any given time, laundry piles up fast. So I concentrate on 1.laundry, 2. Living room, 3.kitchen. And I try to tie in FC to this so I make sure the floors are bleached and clean because we have a 2.5 year old that likes to lick things (like the floor or stuff off the floor) so it shows I think the welfare (so to speak) of the kiddos is important to me. This is why you two have to communicate this stuff. It�s almost like you�re picking up your bow and shooting arrows and occasionally you hit that center mark. Find out what her center marks are and this will improve your aim.
I know you�ve said you�re very hands on. So am I. I cook, I clean, I am very involved with the kids. Another thing I�ve learned is that my wife (and most wives) like me to take charge of situations. She doesn�t want to be the one to plan everything. So since I�m on summer break, I have a lot of free time. The week before, I�ll say �hey, on Tuesday let�s go to White Water and if there�s energy left we�ll hit the zoo or science museum.� She loves it. I like to also plan it because as the older I get I tolerate crowds less. So I know if I plan it and take charge of it, we�ll get to the water park at 10:30 and there�s not a lot of people. Then we can get a lot of rides and stuff done in a couple of hourse and get out before the crowds show up. If I don�t take charge of it, we�ll sit around and drink coffee for a couple of hours, and watch TV until it�s past noon and then she�s the one that�s taking charge of the situation and trying to get everyone out of the house.
But all of this takes communication and observation. At first, after taking the questionnaire, she knew she had a high need for DS and FC but wasn�t quite sure of the details. So we had to spend a bit of time really working it. I paid a lot of attention to her mood and how she responded to me. For example, she was happy if I was enthusiastic about doing family stuff. But we wouldn�t plan anything and then after being bored, she�d say, �wanna go to the zoo?� And I�d say, �sure, yeah� But it was kinda� rushed. Then one day (making this simplistic) I said, �hey, let�s go do something tomorrow� And she really lit up. And so we�d figure out what to do but I still wasn�t really taking charge and planning. But she was happier when I was initiating the activity. So then I said, �hey�let�s go to X and Y place tomorrow. We�ll get up, I�ll cook some breakfast, and we�ll get out the door.� And then she�d just �glow�. I noticed she became more enthusiastic about meeting my needs. Keep in mind this wasn�t a �You met my needs, now I�ll meet yours.� It just happened naturally because she felt closer and connected and loved and etc.
This is coming from us being on the brink of divorce. In fact, I�m not sure if I�ve ever really stated this before but my wife and I weren�t really in love with each other when we got married. We had our oldest son together. And we had a lot of conflict going. The real reason we got married (we had dated for years and lived together) was so I could have health insurance. Two things kept us together�the sex (yes I�m being serious�her words also) and children.
It really is worth it. It�s frustrating, at times you doubt yourself, sometimes (and sometimes a lot of times) you feel like nothing is improving.
Really it boils down to:
1. Find out what makes the other person mad and don�t do those things
2. Find out what the other person really needs and likes and do those things
3. Spend time alone laughing, flirting, and talking
4. Always double check with your spouse on decisions (POJA�basic consideration)
It gets a lot easier, Hill.
I know I said I wasn�t going to post to you. But you seem like you�re more receptive to others and their suggestions.
Dr Harley said effort is better even if you do something wrong for men.
Yep; that's about planning a date and arranging babysitting.
HAVE YOU DONE IT, YET?????
Well the feedback would point to me mostly doing things wrong, so it is very difficult to keep up that momentum day in and day out.
Difficult, but not impossible. It is difficult because you don't feel like doing it, but you can do things you don't feel like doing. Like going to work, for example.
Or changing a child's soiled diaper.
This relationship is not going to get better without a "whatever it takes, even if I don't like it" attitude.
In fact it is overwhelming. Do I care if my wife enjoys her coffee? Of course I do, I got up in the morning specifically to make us coffee to get an extra 15 minutes together of UA time. It was too strong, I offered to remake it, she declined the offer, live and learn.
Make coffee again tomorrow.
Spoke with Dr Harley again today, it was well worth it. He seems to think our third child has become a catalyst for depression for both of us. She is a blessing, don't get me wrong, but it has changed our lives so dramatically that we are both drowning. He said it is very difficult for love bank deposits to have much of an effect when someone is in a state of depression. The fact that we are both depressed is worse. When we reach out to each other for help because we are drowning, the other spouse says, "yeah I'm drowning too, sorry got nothing for ya!" In fact this exact thing happened last night. Specifically Dr Harley wants both of to explore anti-depressants to feel better about life in general. I'm calling my doctor today because I don't want to feel like this anymore. I asked my wife if she would do the same. Secondly he suggested we both read HNHN for Parents fast. He hammered home the point of spending time away from the kids. We HAVE to arrange for babysitters for an entire day or an overnighter because the hour or two at night playing Scrabble just ain't cutting it.
I have 2 questions.
Did you refuse to POJA the drinking? Did you call her abusive?
The fact that we are both depressed is worse. When we reach out to each other for help because we are drowning, the other spouse says, "yeah I'm drowning too, sorry got nothing for ya!"
That sounds like a lot of what Prisca and I went through in the last 15 months.
Specifically Dr Harley wants both of to explore anti-depressants to feel better about life in general. I'm calling my doctor today because I don't want to feel like this anymore.
This sounds like a great idea. I considered taking antidepressants last year but never pursued it. It probably would have helped keep me more rational. You can't work this program if you can't stay calm; if some medication can help you stay calm you can work this program and resolve the issues that are making you depressed.
The number one source of depression in women is their relationship with their husband or boyfriend.
The number one source of depression in men is their career. Although personally I'd say my number one source of depression was our relationship. I feel a lot better about my career when the relationship is going better.
I have 2 questions.
Did you refuse to POJA the drinking? Did you call her abusive?
We agreed last night that we'd plan out many things, one of them being the days we drink wine and when we do not, on Friday morning. So I poured a glass of wine last night thinking, ok this is great we'll plan out our schedule about wine, UA, who cooks dinner, who does dishes, who puts the kids, down etc, we are getting somewhere, this is good. So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight. So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to. She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
I told her on the phone today that I will not tolerate her verbal abuse any longer verbatim. I told her I will not be a part of a marriage where the verbal abuse and DJs are so frequent. I told her I have many faults and I am working on them, but that I do not want to be in a marriage where I hide in parking lots for an hour long to avoid coming home. Also that I do not like to walk on egg shells.
We HAVE to arrange for babysitters for an entire day or an overnighter because the hour or two at night playing Scrabble just ain't cutting it.
In an odd coincidence, Prisca and I played Scrabble last night. But I won, which I don't do very often, so that may mean we don't play much any more.
Oh, and we found something for you guys!
http://www.gearfuse.com/double-the-pleasure-scrabble-board-with-double-the-amount-of-squares/
I have 2 questions.
Did you refuse to POJA the drinking? Did you call her abusive?
We agreed last night that we'd plan out many things, one of them being the days we drink wine and when we do not, on Friday morning. So I poured a glass of wine last night thinking, ok this is great we'll plan out our schedule about wine, UA, who cooks dinner, who does dishes, who puts the kids, down etc, we are getting somewhere, this is good. So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight. So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to. She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
I told her on the phone today that I will not tolerate her verbal abuse any longer verbatim. I told her I will not be a part of a marriage where the verbal abuse and DJs are so frequent. I told her I have many faults and I am working on them, but that I do not want to be in a marriage where I hide in parking lots for an hour long to avoid coming home. Also that I do not like to walk on egg shells.
Hi Hill,
POJA would say that you don't do anything until you two come to an agreement, which means not drinking wine. By drinking wine after she told you she didn't want you to, you are inadvertently telling her that drinking wine is more important than her.
So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight.
Even if she makes a demand, you still do nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.
Love busters on her part do not justify love busters on your part.
So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to.
You guess?
She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
Quit looking at her. Look at you. She will never want to change if you aren't willing to change.
Get the plank out of your own eye and quit attempting to pick the specks out of hers.
Hill,
Do you know what you're supposed to do when you can't reach a decision with POJA? Nothing.
And, when I was on the radio show last year Dr Harley told me to clean up my DJ and my DH's AO would stop. And, they pretty well have.
So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight. So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to. She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
STOP IT!!! You are destroying your marriage.
I told her on the phone today that I will not tolerate her verbal abuse any longer verbatim. I told her I will not be a part of a marriage where the verbal abuse and DJs are so frequent.
Oh Hill ... You've threatening your wife's security. Basically you're saying "Straighten up, or I'm leaving you."
That would break any woman's heart. How do you expect to fill her love bank when you threaten her very security?
I have 2 questions.
Did you refuse to POJA the drinking? Did you call her abusive?
We agreed last night that we'd plan out many things, one of them being the days we drink wine and when we do not, on Friday morning. So I poured a glass of wine last night thinking, ok this is great we'll plan out our schedule about wine, UA, who cooks dinner, who does dishes, who puts the kids, down etc, we are getting somewhere, this is good. So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight. So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to. She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
I told her on the phone today that I will not tolerate her verbal abuse any longer verbatim. I told her I will not be a part of a marriage where the verbal abuse and DJs are so frequent. I told her I have many faults and I am working on them, but that I do not want to be in a marriage where I hide in parking lots for an hour long to avoid coming home. Also that I do not like to walk on egg shells.
Hi Hill,
POJA would say that you don't do anything until you two come to an agreement, which means not drinking wine. By drinking wine after she told you she didn't want you to, you are inadvertently telling her that drinking wine is more important than her.
I can see that. I guess it was weird because my wife drank wine with me about five nights in a row, then got up one day and said I don't want wine and I don't want you to either. So what had become a very common thing for us maybe even "presumed" activity, especially of late, has now become something she decided unilaterally that WE no longer were doing. So I felt like, "where was I during that decision that was made?"
Now from a practical stance we used to hit the gym after I got home from work, which has now turned into, rush through dinner, get the kids down asap, then open some wine and unwind over TV and Scrabble. Pretty sure the gym is more healthy, but so difficult to make happen with making child care arrangements. I asked my wife if we could do this, but it was met with the usual "maybe" or "we'll see". I can appreciate taking charge of plans, but I know my wife so a, "put your gym clothes on were heading to the gym, and dropping off the kids with your folks" would not be received well.
So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight.
Even if she makes a demand, you still do nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.
Love busters on her part do not justify love busters on your part.
So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to.
You guess?
She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
Quit looking at her. Look at you. She will never want to change if you aren't willing to change.
Get the plank out of your own eye and quit attempting to pick the specks out of hers.
Matthew 7:5, nice pull!
I can see that. I guess it was weird because my wife drank wine with me about five nights in a row, then got up one day and said I don't want wine and I don't want you to either. So what had become a very common thing for us maybe even "presumed" activity, especially of late, has now become something she decided unilaterally that WE no longer were doing. So I felt like, "where was I during that decision that was made?"
We always get into sticky territory if we try to judge how rational something is. Whether you think it is rational or not, it still withdrew from her love bank.
So then she said, well I don't want you to drink wine tonight either. I complained to her that we had negotiated to discuss in the morning, but now she was demanding that I don't drink wine tonight. So I guess, yes I had wine even though she didn't want me to. She demanded I don't have wine and I had it anyways.
STOP IT!!! You are destroying your marriage.
I told her on the phone today that I will not tolerate her verbal abuse any longer verbatim. I told her I will not be a part of a marriage where the verbal abuse and DJs are so frequent.
Oh Hill ... You've threatening your wife's security. Basically you're saying "Straighten up, or I'm leaving you."
That would break any woman's heart. How do you expect to fill her love bank when you threaten her very security?
I will apologize to her for this, I didn't intend for it to come off that way. I feel like a doormat, I don't like to feel that way. I'm struggling to on how to no longer be a doormat. I guess I don't know how to say it then. When I first got to this forum someone, can't remember who, told me to tell my wife "I don't intend on being in a sexless relationship." Well I don't intend in being a punching bag either so I thought that was saying the same thing.
HT, I would apologize for drinking the wine when she had asked you not to and leave it at that.
It would be good in the future for you to call your W and discuss the wine before you even buy it.
I can see that. I guess it was weird because my wife drank wine with me about five nights in a row, then got up one day and said I don't want wine and I don't want you to either. So what had become a very common thing for us maybe even "presumed" activity, especially of late, has now become something she decided unilaterally that WE no longer were doing. So I felt like, "where was I during that decision that was made?"
You have got it backwards.
Your wife informed you that the previous situation was something she was not enthusiastic about any more.
Your correct response was to do nothing and negotiate a new agreement.
Instead, you made the unilateral decision to drink anyway. You are the one who made a unilateral decision.
Dr. Harley jumped all over me for this kind of thing. I'll go pull you some quotes off of the private forum.
When there is a conflict, your correct response is to do NOTHING until there is an enthusiastic agreement. If you were doing something before, stop doing it and do nothing until there is enthusiastic agreement. Drinking wine is not doing nothing, it is doing something.
Your wife was not being demanding at all. It is not demanding to say "It turns out the agreement we made is not going to work for me after all; I'm no longer enthusiastic; we need to make a new plan together." That's not a demand.
Plank: Your independent behavior
I can see that. I guess it was weird because my wife drank wine with me about five nights in a row, then got up one day and said I don't want wine and I don't want you to either. So what had become a very common thing for us maybe even "presumed" activity, especially of late, has now become something she decided unilaterally that WE no longer were doing. So I felt like, "where was I during that decision that was made?"
No, she decided that she was no longer happy doing this activity. She's letting you know she's unhappy. POJA says DO NOTHING until you can both enthusiastically agree on what to do. This is part of showing her you care for her. It's taking her needs into account.
She didn't make a decision unilaterally. She told you she didn't want to do this anymore. To insist that you are going to do it anyway, when she's made it known to you that she's unhappy with it, is to gain at her expense.
YOU are the one that made a unilateral decision. And you gained at her expense.
Now from a practical stance we used to hit the gym after I got home from work, which has now turned into, rush through dinner, get the kids down asap, then open some wine and unwind over TV and Scrabble. Pretty sure the gym is more healthy, but so difficult to make happen with making child care arrangements. I asked my wife if we could do this, but it was met with the usual "maybe" or "we'll see". I can appreciate taking charge of plans, but I know my wife so a, "put your gym clothes on were heading to the gym, and dropping off the kids with your folks" would not be received well.
Why would she be enthusiastic about going to the gym with you when you won't even use POJA to protect her about the wine issue? You are in the habit of gaining at her expense. Why would she want to do
anything?
I feel like a doormat, I don't like to feel that way. I'm struggling to on how to no longer be a doormat.
Short answer: POJA
HT, I would apologize for drinking the wine when she had asked you not to and leave it at that.
It would be good in the future for you to call your W and discuss the wine before you even buy it.
I just apologized and asked her again to plan with me. I sent her a note last night about specific days we might have wine nights and ones we don't. She hasn't replied to it.
I feel like a doormat, I don't like to feel that way. I'm struggling to on how to no longer be a doormat.
Independent behavior is not the solution to that.
I guess I don't know how to say it then. When I first got to this forum someone, can't remember who, told me to tell my wife "I don't intend on being in a sexless relationship."
And you are not in a sexless relationship.
This kind of ultimatum is more appropriate when you have actually been working this program well. When you have eliminated demands, disrespect, anger, independent behavior, and you are meeting your wife's needs, and she is still not meeting yours, then that may be an option. There's an article about that kind of situation, but you'll see Dr. Harley only advocates such ultimatums when he's supervised a man working his program flawlessly:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit3.htmlAnd before any separation, I make sure that they have been doing a good job meeting their wife's emotional needs and avoiding Love Busters.
We've established that you have NOT done a good job meeting Grace's emotional needs and avoiding love busters. You have made improvement, but you're still falling into the love busters about once a week. (From my vantage point it looks like this is some improvement over about once every three days. But of course I can't see clearly over the internet.
And the important point is that they are not eliminated.)
You are going to have to do a stellar job of this and cause Grace to fall back in love with you. There is simply no other way. She is almost certainly going to feel in love with you before she gets to the point where her instincts are prompting her to meet your needs naturally and you begin to fall back in love with her. There is no other way.
Your children are depending on you.
HT, I would apologize for drinking the wine when she had asked you not to and leave it at that.
It would be good in the future for you to call your W and discuss the wine before you even buy it.
I just apologized and asked her again to plan with me. I sent her a note last night about specific days we might have wine nights and ones we don't. She hasn't replied to it.
Are you willing to quit the wine altogether if she's not enthusiastic about it?
If you agree that you can drink wine Thursdays but next Thursday she says "You drinking wine tonight is not going to work for me after all," are you willing to follow the POJA and skip it that night?
I can see that. I guess it was weird because my wife drank wine with me about five nights in a row, then got up one day and said I don't want wine and I don't want you to either. So what had become a very common thing for us maybe even "presumed" activity, especially of late, has now become something she decided unilaterally that WE no longer were doing. So I felt like, "where was I during that decision that was made?"
No, she decided that she was no longer happy doing this activity. She's letting you know she's unhappy. POJA says DO NOTHING until you can both enthusiastically agree on what to do. This is part of showing her you care for her. It's taking her needs into account.
She didn't make a decision unilaterally. She told you she didn't want to do this anymore. To insist that you are going to do it anyway, when she's made it known to you that she's unhappy with it, is to gain at her expense.
YOU are the one that made a unilateral decision. And you gained at her expense.
Now from a practical stance we used to hit the gym after I got home from work, which has now turned into, rush through dinner, get the kids down asap, then open some wine and unwind over TV and Scrabble. Pretty sure the gym is more healthy, but so difficult to make happen with making child care arrangements. I asked my wife if we could do this, but it was met with the usual "maybe" or "we'll see". I can appreciate taking charge of plans, but I know my wife so a, "put your gym clothes on were heading to the gym, and dropping off the kids with your folks" would not be received well.
Why would she be enthusiastic about going to the gym with you when you won't even use POJA to protect her about the wine issue? You are in the habit of gaining at her expense. Why would she want to do
anything?You know what Prisca, I have no idea what she is enthusiastic about. You know how I know? Because she won't ever answer me. I send her a text asking if we could do massages and yahtzee last night and she responds back with, you need to get a vasectomy. I email her about some suggested dates we can schedule wine, no wine, scrabble, who makes dinner, etc, she doesn't answer me. If I point blank ask her what she'd like to do she says, "I don't know what do you want to do?" So I make suggestions, they mostly go unanswered, shot down, or put in the "we'll see" box to never be addressed again.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160882&Number=2404950#Post2404950Dr. Harley, is making an agreement and not keeping it a love buster?
I don't want to demand that my wife keep agreements or judge her for not keeping them. Nor do I want to get my way by making her feel guilty if she does not keep them. But I do feel resentment when they are not kept, and it seems that most of the time we are dealing with her resentment and I have to keep mine to myself. Is this issue addressed in a later lesson in the courses?
Markos:
The POJA provides an interesting solution to the problem of unfulfilled agreements: It encourages spouses to let each other off the hook when one spouse wants to bail at the last minute. "Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse" focuses on the doing, not the planning. The reason, of course, is that if you care about each other, you should not gain at your spouse's expense. At the time of the original agreement, it may have seemed as if both spouses would gain, but as the even draws closer one spouse may see a problem. When that happens, the agreement should be scrapped and a new agreement, with the problem acknowledged, should be negotiated.
The point of the POJA is that everything you do should benefit both of you. And if you can't think of a way for that to happen, you should do nothing until a solution is found.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
I hope you understand that you drinking wine last night when your wife objected was gaining at her expense. Further contributing to the bankruptcy in both of your love banks.
You know what Prisca, I have no idea what she is enthusiastic about. You know how I know? Because she won't ever answer me. I send her a text asking if we could do massages and yahtzee last night and she responds back with, you need to get a vasectomy. I email her about some suggested dates we can schedule wine, no wine, scrabble, who makes dinner, etc, she doesn't answer me. If I point blank ask her what she'd like to do she says, "I don't know what do you want to do?" So I make suggestions, they mostly go unanswered, shot down, or put in the "we'll see" box to never be addressed again.
There is no solution to this other than to meet emotional needs and avoid love busters. Your wife is in withdrawal. She will venture out of withdrawal sometimes for conflict. You must get in the habit of meeting her emotional needs all the time and avoiding love busters all the time so that when she ventures into conflict you will slowly make progress towards her moving into intimacy.
It will not be easy. You will need to do it even if she engages in love busters and even if she does not meet your needs.
But if you focus on you and make this happen, you will save your marriage. She will move back into intimacy and then she will finally reciprocate with enthusiasm. Only then.
Start thinking long term. She is going to move back into intimacy before you do.
You know what Prisca, I have no idea what she is enthusiastic about. You know how I know? Because she won't ever answer me. I send her a text asking if we could do massages and yahtzee last night and she responds back with, you need to get a vasectomy. I email her about some suggested dates we can schedule wine, no wine, scrabble, who makes dinner, etc, she doesn't answer me. If I point blank ask her what she'd like to do she says, "I don't know what do you want to do?" So I make suggestions, they mostly go unanswered, shot down, or put in the "we'll see" box to never be addressed again.
You missed my question.
Why would she be enthusiastic about anything? I'll tell you what she's enthusiastic about: NOTHING. You know why? Because you are in the habit of gaining at her expense. You will not follow POJA. There's no reason for her to be enthusiastic about anything that has to do with you.
You want her enthusiasm? Start following POJA. Let her know you are going to protect her and never willingly gain at her expense again. Start today.
HT, I would apologize for drinking the wine when she had asked you not to and leave it at that.
It would be good in the future for you to call your W and discuss the wine before you even buy it.
I just apologized and asked her again to plan with me. I sent her a note last night about specific days we might have wine nights and ones we don't. She hasn't replied to it.
Are you willing to quit the wine altogether if she's not enthusiastic about it?
If you agree that you can drink wine Thursdays but next Thursday she says "You drinking wine tonight is not going to work for me after all," are you willing to follow the POJA and skip it that night?
I'll quit wine, I'll take up knitting if it means I can have a happy marriage. What I can't do is fly by the seat of my pants and have all parts of our life "up in the air" and in limbo. I asked my wife last night to play me like a fiddle so that all her wishes and desires would come true. I asked if she could work on not making me guess so much on when or how she wants something. In other words, "please honey just answer my questions directly." "please say what you mean and mean what you say so I don't get confused so much." "please respond to my emails with answers so I know what the answer is." As I sit here in my office as we speak there are no plans for tonight. I don't know what to expect, I'll do whatever she wants to do, and I'm almost always willing to, but I just never know until the moment is upon us and that is maddening to keep up with.
What I can't do is fly by the seat of my pants and have all parts of our life "up in the air" and in limbo.
You have been told repeatedly to start scheduling UA, with or without your wife. When are you going to do it?
In other words, "please honey just answer my questions directly." "please say what you mean and mean what you say so I don't get confused so much." "please respond to my emails with answers so I know what the answer is."
Okay, you've made your requests. What are you going to do if she doesn't respond? Turn them into demands?
As I sit here in my office as we speak there are no plans for tonight. I don't know what to expect, I'll do whatever she wants to do, and I'm almost always willing to, but I just never know until the moment is upon us and that is maddening to keep up with.
Make plans. Ask her if she likes them. If she doesn't, suggest something else. If she still doesn't, try again tomorrow.
You really need to make these plans a week ahead of time and discuss them with her before the week even starts.
Sitting around and waiting for your wife to take the initiative is NOT attractive.
Take the initiative and woo your wife back. Romance her. Pursue her. Win her.
You know what Prisca, I have no idea what she is enthusiastic about. You know how I know? Because she won't ever answer me. I send her a text asking if we could do massages and yahtzee last night and she responds back with, you need to get a vasectomy. I email her about some suggested dates we can schedule wine, no wine, scrabble, who makes dinner, etc, she doesn't answer me. If I point blank ask her what she'd like to do she says, "I don't know what do you want to do?" So I make suggestions, they mostly go unanswered, shot down, or put in the "we'll see" box to never be addressed again.
You missed my question.
Why would she be enthusiastic about anything? I'll tell you what she's enthusiastic about: NOTHING. You know why? Because you are in the habit of gaining at her expense. You will not follow POJA. There's no reason for her to be enthusiastic about anything that has to do with you.
You want her enthusiasm? Start following POJA. Let her know you are going to protect her and never willingly gain at her expense again. Start today.
I know she isn't enthusiastic about anything. I have the exact same feeling towards her. Specifically what can I call and ask or text my wife about what to expect tonight? I don't mean about wine, I just mean tonight after the kids go down we have time to spend together, usually two hours. I want to plan and agree now how we spend it so we both know what to expect. She may not want to spend anytime with me and I'm prepared for that answer too, but for now I need some direction on what verbage I would use with my wife.
I'll quit wine, I'll take up knitting if it means I can have a happy marriage. What I can't do is fly by the seat of my pants and have all parts of our life "up in the air" and in limbo. I asked my wife last night to play me like a fiddle so that all her wishes and desires would come true. I asked if she could work on not making me guess so much on when or how she wants something. In other words, "please honey just answer my questions directly." "please say what you mean and mean what you say so I don't get confused so much." "please respond to my emails with answers so I know what the answer is." As I sit here in my office as we speak there are no plans for tonight. I don't know what to expect, I'll do whatever she wants to do, and I'm almost always willing to, but I just never know until the moment is upon us and that is maddening to keep up with.
That's absolutely opposite to what we are advising you to do. That's sitting around doing nothing about your wife's emotional needs and using her as an excuse. Instead, continue to try to meet your wife's emotional needs. Use trial and error if she gives you no information, instead of judging her for giving you no information.
I know she isn't enthusiastic about anything. I have the exact same feeling towards her. Specifically what can I call and ask or text my wife about what to expect tonight?
Goodness, no; that would sound sarcastic and disrespectful.
Do this instead: come up with two proposed activities. Make one something NEW that you think she would enjoy, and one something that you've done before that she knows she enjoys. Contact her and say "I'd like to spend some time with you tonight. I was thinking of either X or Y."
If she doesn't like one of those, come back with more suggestions.
If you don't have something picked by the time the kids are asleep, invite her to play Scrabble, and talk talk TALK. Without demands, disrespect, anger, or independent behavior, of course.
Hill, getting information from her would be good, but you can't force her to behave, you can only change what you do and then see if it has a positive impact on her.
From the way you describe things, it sounds to me like she does a better job of meeting your needs than you do of meeting hers, because you sound more in love/engaged. So, before you start making requests of her to make you happy, you have to make her want to do that for you by meeting her needs and avoiding LBs.
By the way, Hill, please don't underestimate the fact that you are BOTH here, BOTH posting, and BOTH trying. There are endless people on here who wish (including me) that their spouse would want to do MB. There is lots of hope for you two because of that, please keep that in mind. This is a long game but you are both playing it on the same team, so as you get better and better at it, you are bound to find success.
[quote=Hilltopper1972]If you don't have something picked by the time the kids are asleep, invite her to play Scrabble, and talk talk TALK. Without demands, disrespect, anger, or independent behavior, of course.
And if she STILL refuses (and she may), try again tomorrow.
I know she isn't enthusiastic about anything. I have the exact same feeling towards her. Specifically what can I call and ask or text my wife about what to expect tonight?
Goodness, no; that would sound sarcastic and disrespectful.
Do this instead: come up with two proposed activities. Make one something NEW that you think she would enjoy, and one something that you've done before that she knows she enjoys. Contact her and say "I'd like to spend some time with you tonight. I was thinking of either X or Y."
If she doesn't like one of those, come back with more suggestions.
If you don't have something picked by the time the kids are asleep, invite her to play Scrabble, and talk talk TALK. Without demands, disrespect, anger, or independent behavior, of course.
Markos,
This is the kind of stuff I needed, specific suggestions I can follow through with. I'll do it. By the way, my heart is beating, pulse is racing, and I feel fear just by doing this. Prisca might think I'm a wuss, but I don't really care, the feeling is real. I'd rather be presenting a sales presentation in front of 20 strangers.
Hill, getting information from her would be good, but you can't force her to behave, you can only change what you do and then see if it has a positive impact on her.
From the way you describe things, it sounds to me like she does a better job of meeting your needs than you do of meeting hers, because you sound more in love/engaged. So, before you start making requests of her to make you happy, you have to make her want to do that for you by meeting her needs and avoiding LBs.
I'm not sure I understand this point, I'm more in love with her so I do less of a job of meeting her needs? She is less in love with me, but she meets mine better? Wouldn't it be the opposite?
I know she isn't enthusiastic about anything. I have the exact same feeling towards her. Specifically what can I call and ask or text my wife about what to expect tonight?
Goodness, no; that would sound sarcastic and disrespectful.
Do this instead: come up with two proposed activities. Make one something NEW that you think she would enjoy, and one something that you've done before that she knows she enjoys. Contact her and say "I'd like to spend some time with you tonight. I was thinking of either X or Y."
If she doesn't like one of those, come back with more suggestions.
If you don't have something picked by the time the kids are asleep, invite her to play Scrabble, and talk talk TALK. Without demands, disrespect, anger, or independent behavior, of course.
Markos,
This is the kind of stuff I needed, specific suggestions I can follow through with. I'll do it. By the way, my heart is beating, pulse is racing, and I feel fear just by doing this. Prisca might think I'm a wuss, but I don't really care, the feeling is real. I'd rather be presenting a sales presentation in front of 20 strangers.
I understand the feeling.
Take heart; you'll never fall in love with strangers, but you will fall in love with Grace.
BTW, it sounds to me like Grace is not enthusiastic with you drinking wine at all. Clear it out of the house and quit buying it. Find some other recreational activities that you both think are super.
Hill, getting information from her would be good, but you can't force her to behave, you can only change what you do and then see if it has a positive impact on her.
From the way you describe things, it sounds to me like she does a better job of meeting your needs than you do of meeting hers, because you sound more in love/engaged. So, before you start making requests of her to make you happy, you have to make her want to do that for you by meeting her needs and avoiding LBs.
I'm not sure I understand this point, I'm more in love with her so I do less of a job of meeting her needs? She is less in love with me, but she meets mine better? Wouldn't it be the opposite?
I'm just saying that she seems to be spending a lot of time in withdrawal and you seem to be spending a lot of time in conflict. Conflict is closer to being in love than withdrawal. So, my point is that in order to get your needs met in the long run, your current focus should be doing things (meeting needs and avoiding LBs) that move her out of withdrawal. Once she falls in love, she will be more enthusiastic about meeting your needs.
By the way, Hill, please don't underestimate the fact that you are BOTH here, BOTH posting, and BOTH trying. There are endless people on here who wish (including me) that their spouse would want to do MB. There is lots of hope for you two because of that, please keep that in mind. This is a long game but you are both playing it on the same team, so as you get better and better at it, you are bound to find success.
I know there is hope even though it doesn't feel that way right now.
By the way, Hill, please don't underestimate the fact that you are BOTH here, BOTH posting, and BOTH trying. There are endless people on here who wish (including me) that their spouse would want to do MB. There is lots of hope for you two because of that, please keep that in mind. This is a long game but you are both playing it on the same team, so as you get better and better at it, you are bound to find success.
That is absolutely right, Penni!
Hill, I think your feelings are completely valid. I don't look down on you for being emotional. I am married to an emotional man, and I think emotional men make great husbands.
But waiting around for your wife to take the initiative is not about feelings. It's about doing nothing. And it's unattractive. Women like to be pursued. Women like to be won. It's just part of our nature. So follow some of these suggestions we've given you and WIN your wife.
Hill, I think your feelings are completely valid. I don't look down on you for being emotional. I am married to an emotional man, and I think emotional men make great husbands.
(Secretly I think emotional men lead more complete lives than the other kind. But don't tell anybody I said so.
)
I know she isn't enthusiastic about anything. I have the exact same feeling towards her. Specifically what can I call and ask or text my wife about what to expect tonight?
Goodness, no; that would sound sarcastic and disrespectful.
Do this instead: come up with two proposed activities. Make one something NEW that you think she would enjoy, and one something that you've done before that she knows she enjoys. Contact her and say "I'd like to spend some time with you tonight. I was thinking of either X or Y."
If she doesn't like one of those, come back with more suggestions.
If you don't have something picked by the time the kids are asleep, invite her to play Scrabble, and talk talk TALK. Without demands, disrespect, anger, or independent behavior, of course.
Markos,
This is the kind of stuff I needed, specific suggestions I can follow through with. I'll do it. By the way, my heart is beating, pulse is racing, and I feel fear just by doing this. Prisca might think I'm a wuss, but I don't really care, the feeling is real. I'd rather be presenting a sales presentation in front of 20 strangers.
I understand the feeling.
Take heart; you'll never fall in love with strangers, but you will fall in love with Grace.
BTW, it sounds to me like Grace is not enthusiastic with you drinking wine at all. Clear it out of the house and quit buying it. Find some other recreational activities that you both think are super.
My wife loves nice wine like I do, but it is a streaky thing. If she is running or dieting it is out, if she isn't and is stressed it is usually in. Whether it be wine or scrabble, I think all activities have ceased being as fun as they used to together which is part of the problem. Wine used to be about romance together, not anymore. We haven't been enjoying each other's company and always arguing so we both engage in IB because we don't want to be miserable. As childish as it is I "hide" upstairs, in the living room, in parking lots, just to avoid her. My mentality walking in the door is that of defensiveness. How fun is the night gonna be when I start out with that attitude.
Decide to walk in the door attractive and happy, with plans that she hope she will join you for.
If she says no, you regret to hear that, but keep your composure. Like Prisca said, try again tomorrow.
Hill, I think your feelings are completely valid. I don't look down on you for being emotional. I am married to an emotional man, and I think emotional men make great husbands.
But waiting around for your wife to take the initiative is not about feelings. It's about doing nothing. And it's unattractive. Women like to be pursued. Women like to be won. It's just part of our nature. So follow some of these suggestions we've given you and WIN your wife.
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree? Its not physical fear it is fear of rejection, DJs, SDs, AOs, and other LBs. My instincts tell me, "don't touch that you're get burned", and that is what motivates me more so than the idea of a happy marriage. On top of it, we fight and I don't even want to hang out with her. I'm sure she doesn't want to hang out with me either. I have to change this to have a great marriage and I'm trying. Tonight might be tough. I asked her if she wanted to hang out, haven't heard back. Tonight might be a bit early to do a romantic pursuit of my wife considering we had some pretty big fighting last night and this morning.
My wife loves nice wine like I do, but it is a streaky thing. If she is running or dieting it is out, if she isn't and is stressed it is usually in. Whether it be wine or scrabble, I think all activities have ceased being as fun as they used to together which is part of the problem.
That is because both of your love bank balances are deep in the red. You have both abused each other, and you're both wounded.
Wine used to be about romance together, not anymore. We haven't been enjoying each other's company and always arguing so we both engage in IB because we don't want to be miserable. As childish as it is I "hide" upstairs, in the living room, in parking lots, just to avoid her.
I would "hide" by going shopping. I would "hide" in front of the TV. I suspect your wife does the same with the TV, since that seemed to be taking up a lot of your time together for awhile. She seems to "hide" with her gardening, too, as far as it looks from here.
Markos would do the parking lot thing.
We all do it, when we're hurting. Our feelings tell us to sooth ourselves, protect ourselves, make ourselves feel good about something in life.
You're going to have to override your feelings with your thoughts for awhile. "Yes, I
want to hide out in a parking lot and eat a bucket load of fried chicken (markos :D), but I'm going to go home with a smile on my face, a gift in my hands, and an evening planned that will crack the door to my wife's heart open. And I will do it again tomorrow. And the next day. Until she opens up completely."
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Overcoming fear is a decision. You decide you are going to stand up and face what you fear.
It's a process in the sense that you may have to face your fear several times before you're no longer afraid. But it starts with a decision.
"Yes, I want to hide out in a parking lot and eat a bucket load of fried chicken (markos :D),
I resemble that remark!
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Doing something that will help, even though you don't feel like it (you feel fear) is an action, not a process.
Ever heard of the mideast "peace process"? Multiple decades, and still processing...
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Overcoming fear is a decision. You decide you are going to stand up and face what you fear.
It's a process in the sense that you may have to face your fear several times before you're no longer afraid. But it starts with a decision.
agreed
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Doing something that will help, even though you don't feel like it (you feel fear) is an action, not a process.
Ever heard of the mideast "peace process"? Multiple decades, and still processing...
I asked her to play Wii Bowling with me tonight to make things a little easier on us. I think a fun activity would be appropriate to break the ice a bit.
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Doing something that will help, even though you don't feel like it (you feel fear) is an action, not a process.
Ever heard of the mideast "peace process"? Multiple decades, and still processing...
I asked her to play Wii Bowling with me tonight to make things a little easier on us. I think a fun activity would be appropriate to break the ice a bit.
You did great showing initiative.
Be like this all the time.
You did great showing initiative.
Yes
Be prepared if she refuses. She may. Be gentle in your response.
Hilltopper, was that you on the show today?
Hill, if you and your wife start taking anti-depressants please be aware that your dr will no doubt counsel you against drinking. Depending on the one that is chosen, they sometimes react very badly with a chemical present in wine.
Hilltopper, was that you on the show today?
Yes that was me. Feedback is very very welcome!
Hill, if you and your wife start taking anti-depressants please be aware that your dr will no doubt counsel you against drinking. Depending on the one that is chosen, they sometimes react very badly with a chemical present in wine.
Doctors orders good! My wife and I miss the gym, we are making plans to get this back in our schedule with baby and all. Right now everything is just one conversation at a time.
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Doing something that will help, even though you don't feel like it (you feel fear) is an action, not a process.
Ever heard of the mideast "peace process"? Multiple decades, and still processing...
I asked her to play Wii Bowling with me tonight to make things a little easier on us. I think a fun activity would be appropriate to break the ice a bit.
Real bowling is a blast, too. FWW and I went last weekend after dinner. Bowling is usually cheap, too!
Be that as it may, my waiting around comes from fear. Overcoming fear is a process, wouldn't you agree?
Doing something that will help, even though you don't feel like it (you feel fear) is an action, not a process.
Ever heard of the mideast "peace process"? Multiple decades, and still processing...
I asked her to play Wii Bowling with me tonight to make things a little easier on us. I think a fun activity would be appropriate to break the ice a bit.
Real bowling is a blast, too. FWW and I went last weekend after dinner. Bowling is usually cheap, too!
Agreed, it is a 2 on my RA list, just a 1 for her. We are going out today with the family, and tonight just us. I pulled out the workbook, reviewed her ENs, reviewed her LBs, then reviewed the RA list and wrote down six things that were 5-6's for us. She reviewed it, picked a couple she liked, we poja'd, and there you have it.
And there you have it, folks! POJA for the win. Fantastic job, Hill.
My wife and I miss the gym, we are making plans to get this back in our schedule with baby and all
Most gym's have free child care now, if yours dont, check around and find one that does.
And there you have it, folks! POJA for the win. Fantastic job, Hill.
My wife and I miss the gym, we are making plans to get this back in our schedule with baby and all
Most gym's have free child care now, if yours dont, check around and find one that does.
Ours does. We haven't POJAd on how it will go down. Wife is not thrilled about working out with me because in the past I've been a lecturing fool. I told her she can plan the work out and I'll follow, so we'll see how it goes. She tends to like to do spin class with her friends in the mornings as well, so it is more of creating a nice environment for her to enjoy working out with me. That will take some time, trial, and hopefully very little error.
My DW arranged for babysitters for the night. I sent in a request to a buddy who is a chef at the best Sushi Restaurant within 30 miles. Chef came for a visit, hooked us up with VIP appetizers, desserts, etc, it was off the charts. I saw the wife I married as we were out, and it made me realize how important UA time is and how we fall in love in the first place. One night out for three hours of fun and it makes all the difference in the world. No fighting, no LBs, just fun between two people in love. Nothing better man. We went shopping afterwards for a bit, she threw some decorator pillows at me playfully and flirtatiously. I pointed out to my wife that I saw some other dudes checking her out, she said, "Well that is because you have a hot wife!" We left the night feeling wonderful about our time spent and about each other. A day and a half ago we were in a massive fight!!! There is NO excuse for not making time spent together a priority and my guess is 80% of us would not be here on this forum if we did just that. My wife and I have had some hard times and I'm sure more are coming, but if you are reading this, PLEASE, listen to the man and take the 15 hours of Undivided Attention seriously. Don't tear out that page of the book and pretend it doesn't matter. UA time is in fact the pillar of this program and Dr H told me personally that it was and that it was exactly what I should focus on among all other things.
If you don't spend time together you are headed for trouble. My wife and I were headed down a road that was certain to lead to affairs or divorce. Why? Because we forsake our marriage and put everything before ourselves. It doesn't mean that you should stop being great parents, it means, to be great parents you must be in love with each other.
Here is an illustration of what I mean. My wife and I have been fighting. If we are being responsible we do it away from the children. Sometimes we do it anyways. My six year old is smart and perceptive enough to know what is going on. She loves me, she wants to protect me, and she frequently comes up to me and hugs me and says, "Dad, I love you so much." She does the same thing to my wife. She has always been a great kid, but you know what, she never did it that much until the fights became so common. Why? She senses it. She knows there are problems. My wife and I are incapable of showing empathy for each other so who steps in? A six year old. She is trying to save the day, the only way she knows how. My six year old daughter senses that her Mommy and Daddy are in trouble and she is trying to save it herself. If that doesn't rip your heart out I don't know what does.
Moral of the story? Spend time together so your six year old isn't the one trying to save your damn marriage.
Well .. I might do that .. but one thing I would like to chime in on was a few (many) pages back you mentioned a vasectomy. I would go get that done ... possibly your wife is nervous about getting preggo again and condoms/birth control are a bit of a turn off for her. Its ALOT easier to SF when you know your not having any more kids and you have made sure (by vasectomy) that the chances are NULL to her getting preggo again. ONce you do this .. you will find that your sex will be alot more spntaneous becasue you dont have to go "do you got protection hun?" and waste those few extra moments to "put one on" in the heat of the moment ... its alot nicer to just not have to stop and lose your "momentum".
Get er done ... asap if you dont plan on any more kids ... you wife will love you for it! .. do it on a friday (mid afternoon) then sit on a bag of frozen veggies for the weekend and youll be back to work on monday NP. Then a week from then you'll be good to go! And that week off you give your wife (unless you plan it around her period) will give your wife some "relief of pressure" until you guys are in tune again.
MNG
Yep this is our plan! By the way I bought a bottle of Maca Root the other day. My wife isn't down with taking some yet, but it appears that it is great for both men and women. Do you take it? If so what changes have you seen in yourself? I was specifically interested in it effects on skin(mine is very dry) and adrenal glands. Energy is a big problem for me.
Yes I do take it. What i noticed was I had more energy at the end of the day. . my recovery time when i work out is reduced by alot .. and anxiety and stress is reduced a signifigantly and my drive for sex is not as strong and demanding as it would be otherwise. Which is probably due to possibly having too much testosterone .. and the maca leveled me off to some degree... now that doesnt mean I cant be persuaded to sex ... or that I dont want it .. but the "urge" is no longer as strong or taxing on my mind.
p.s. Maca takes about 5 days of full dosage to notice its effects. I take 1/2 the dosage in the morning .. and the other 1/2 at lunch time. On Fridays I would take my dosage late in the afternoon so i have TONS of energy on friday evenings! .. also its a cycle .. 3 weeks on .. and one week off. MY wife stops maca when her period starts and I stop aswell .. we start and stop together.
MNG
This will be day six with the Maca Root. Dosage is 3 capsules a day, so I do two with breakfast, then one with lunch to make sure I don't desire to stay up too late. Here's what I notice:
1. Energy: I used to go from coffee to diet coke to not have "drowsy eyes" throughout most days. I've noticed my diet coke sits on my desk more than before and I'm quite alert even when I've had a poor night of sleep.
2. Anxiety: I'm going through some gnarly stuff at work with my business partner. It is at the attorney stage already. I don't handle conflict well, but I feel fairly cool and calm about the whole thing, so I think there is something there.
No other noticeable effects yet but I'm gonna keep track of before and after best I can. All in all, I'm feeling pretty good about it.
Thats great HIll .. that your experiencing some benefits! I knew you would. Part of it i think is becasue the food we eat doesnt supply all the proper nutrients for our endrocine system (our horomones glands) and due to stresses in life many of them get exhausted and dont replenish very well. Maca, i believe does a detox of them .. and refreshes them up back to a normal state after the 5 day period (or less depending on the person) hence the feeling of lower stress levels .. and increased energy.
How was your weekend Hill? Mine sucked! I got guilted into helping some family members with some yard work that took up almost my entire Saturday and then had to spend Sunday afternoon fixing 2 PCs for a friend (he paid me tho). My wife was not Enthusiastic about helping my family with the yard work .. and it created some tension between wife and I and the other family memebers. I was reluctant to help aswell since they never do anyhting for us .. but htought maybe if i stepped it up for them they might want to help us with our kids some more to give us time to go out, but its probably wasted effort on our part since we are having inlaw issues with them .. and both my wife and I can plainly see marrital issues between my dad and his commonlaw GF of 20 years, but they ignore our advice since they think htye are older and wiser and most likely figure that they know more than we do. We brought up the fact of "look how we used to be and look at your own relationship, dont you wana be in love" they shrugged and changed topic. Jealous maybe? Dunno .. but my side of the family has some serious issues and becasue of that .. they have been ignoring their grandkids ... and casusing in family drama similar to what my wife and I did many months back.
This past 2 weeks, UA time has been next to none. Sure can feel its effects. Wife and I POJA'd that all this week we are not going to cater to any more family so we can catch up on UA and possibly even plan a date night if we can.
Anyhow .. enough about me .. this is your thread. Hope your weekend was better than mine! Mine went way too fast.
MNG
Thats great HIll .. that your experiencing some benefits! I knew you would. Part of it i think is becasue the food we eat doesnt supply all the proper nutrients for our endrocine system (our horomones glands) and due to stresses in life many of them get exhausted and dont replenish very well. Maca, i believe does a detox of them .. and refreshes them up back to a normal state after the 5 day period (or less depending on the person) hence the feeling of lower stress levels .. and increased energy.
How was your weekend Hill? Mine sucked! I got guilted into helping some family members with some yard work that took up almost my entire Saturday and then had to spend Sunday afternoon fixing 2 PCs for a friend (he paid me tho). My wife was not Enthusiastic about helping my family with the yard work .. and it created some tension between wife and I and the other family memebers. I was reluctant to help aswell since they never do anyhting for us .. but htought maybe if i stepped it up for them they might want to help us with our kids some more to give us time to go out, but its probably wasted effort on our part since we are having inlaw issues with them .. and both my wife and I can plainly see marrital issues between my dad and his commonlaw GF of 20 years, but they ignore our advice since they think htye are older and wiser and most likely figure that they know more than we do. We brought up the fact of "look how we used to be and look at your own relationship, dont you wana be in love" they shrugged and changed topic. Jealous maybe? Dunno .. but my side of the family has some serious issues and becasue of that .. they have been ignoring their grandkids ... and casusing in family drama similar to what my wife and I did many months back.
This past 2 weeks, UA time has been next to none. Sure can feel its effects. Wife and I POJA'd that all this week we are not going to cater to any more family so we can catch up on UA and possibly even plan a date night if we can.
Anyhow .. enough about me .. this is your thread. Hope your weekend was better than mine! Mine went way too fast.
MNG
My wife and I are different people during TRUE UA time to be honest. We are the people we both fell in love with 10 years ago. This in a nut shell explains why Dr H says that UA time is the single most important thing struggling marriage partners can focus on.
Anways, Friday was awkward, we spent some talking, but we were still "getting over" issues from earlier in the day. Saturday was spectacular, my wife was so fun to be around throughout the day and on our date. Sunday was decent, couple of rough spots, followed by a strange good/bad finish to the night which I won't get into. I have some legal issues at work with my business partner, my wife has been in constant contact with me, supporting me, and wanting to know what is going on. That feels good when she does that.
My wife and I are different people during TRUE UA time to be honest. We are the people we both fell in love with 10 years ago. This in a nut shell explains why Dr H says that UA time is the single most important thing struggling marriage partners can focus on.
Hooray!
You've got a handle on the most important concept around here.
Sunday was decent, couple of rough spots, followed by a strange good/bad finish to the night which I won't get into.
I'm betting there were some disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, or angry outbursts involved.
I have some legal issues at work with my business partner, my wife has been in constant contact with me, supporting me, and wanting to know what is going on. That feels good when she does that.
It sounds like you being open and honest about this is a great chance to meet an emotional need.
My wife and I are different people during TRUE UA time to be honest. We are the people we both fell in love with 10 years ago. This in a nut shell explains why Dr H says that UA time is the single most important thing struggling marriage partners can focus on.
Hooray!
You've got a handle on the most important concept around here.
Sunday was decent, couple of rough spots, followed by a strange good/bad finish to the night which I won't get into.
I'm betting there were some disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, or angry outbursts involved.
I have some legal issues at work with my business partner, my wife has been in constant contact with me, supporting me, and wanting to know what is going on. That feels good when she does that.
It sounds like you being open and honest about this is a great chance to meet an emotional need.
Yep honesty is key for my wife, one her most important ENs as is Financial Support, so involving her in legal issues with my business partner is very, very important to her.
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Nothing. Or assist her in declining the offer which I have many, many times. Last time they hung out my wife planned to have lunch with her. So they agreed on some place and date, etc. I recall my wife telling me she didn't want to go the day of even though she committed. I've always been of the train of thought that people that make commitments should follow through on them. I told her that. It is the same thing with our friends. My wife frequently commits to something for us, then tells me she doesn't want to go. Its not a huge deal, but gets my wife into trouble because she has a hard time saying "no" to people. She says "yes", then expresses to me that she wishes she would have said "no" the first time around. I even told her that no matter who it is, use me as the excuse as to why she doesn't want to go anywhere because this is hard for her to do so. I've offered to send a text for her from my phone, or call someone and politely decline that we have plans already, etc. She has refused my help with this.
Ultimately my wife has problems with my Mom and two sisters. I can't help her repair this, I can only support her. I typically don't like to discuss the "who's fault is it" because I'm compromised on what I believe to be true vs supporting my wife. I won't lie to my wife if she asks me what I believe to be true about the situation. Typically it is not what she wants to hear(I guess), and it leads to conflict between us. All I can do is empathize with how hard the conflict she has is, let her know that I understand her point of view, and let her know that she is my number one priority which I've done many times. If my belief it is the courteous and moral thing to do to honor our commitments with others is damaging to my marriage then I will cease suggesting to my wife that will follow through again.
Ultimately my wife has problems with my Mom and two sisters. I can't help her repair this, I can only support her. I typically don't like to discuss the "who's fault is it" because I'm compromised on what I believe to be true vs supporting my wife.
Calling your mother and talking(venting) about your wife and/or marriage does not support your wife and typically will fan the flames of their conflict.
If I remember correctly, you posted previously about grace wanting to call your parents to get their "help" with your marriage/you and you were far from happy about this. Why was it okay for you to "drag" your mother into your marriage but not okay for grace?
For me, it is always helpful to ask myself, "Would I want my spouse to do this?" If the answer is no...then don't do it!
Ultimately my wife has problems with my Mom and two sisters. I can't help her repair this, I can only support her. I typically don't like to discuss the "who's fault is it" because I'm compromised on what I believe to be true vs supporting my wife.
Calling your mother and talking(venting) about your wife and/or marriage does not support your wife and typically will fan the flames of their conflict.
If I remember correctly, you posted previously about grace wanting to call your parents to get their "help" with your marriage/you and you were far from happy about this. Why was it okay for you to do it but not okay for grace?
For me, it is always helpful to ask myself, "Would I want my spouse to do this?" If the answer is no...then don't do it!
I described it as "my mom throughout a life raft and I took it." She noticed a change in her son, she knew something was not right. The purpose of the call was my company that I own, it is becoming a legal issue with my partner so I filled my Mom in on what was happening, because is is devastating, I've been back stabbed and it hurts like heck. I was emotional, she asked how my wife and I were, and I paused for like two minutes, and she knew immediately we were not doing well either. So while I reached out to my Mom for different reasons, I still shared some things with her in a moment of weakness that my wife didn't want me to share and that was wrong. I've since apologized. I made sure and let my Mom know at the end of the conversation that what is between Grace and I is between Grace and I alone, but that I appreciated her kind words of encouragement.
As to me rejecting my wife's idea of an "intervention" with my Dad, I guess I just didn't see what it really meant. People on the forum suggested it be a bad idea so I never thought about it again. My Mom has the ability to comfort me more than anyone on the face of the Earth, but in the future I want that person to be my wife.
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Nothing.
Yep.
I've always been of the train of thought that people that make commitments should follow through on them. I told her that.
This is not doing nothing. In fact, this can very easily be seen as pressuring your wife to do something she doesn't want to do.
Your wife comes first. She comes before any other commitments to any other people, including family.
Taking the effort to be courteous to family and friends to the point of neglecting your spouse's feelings is a very, very easy trap to fall into. Many have done it. But it will need to stop in order to show care for your wife.
How do you stop it? POJA.
I typically don't like to discuss the "who's fault is it" because I'm compromised on what I believe to be true vs supporting my wife.
Another good reason not to discuss whose fault it is is that fault is completely irrelevant.
I don't have time to comment much yet, but let me just say that your family is disrespectfully judging your wife.
There are two Marriage Builders book chapters that can really help you with this. One is in His Needs, Her Needs For Parents, chapter 14. And the other is in Love Busters, Chapter 9.
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Nothing.
Yep.
Next question:
If Grace is reluctant about you spending time with your mother, or spending time on the phone with your mother, what should you do?
I described it as "my mom throughout a life raft and I took it." She noticed a change in her son, she knew something was not right. The purpose of the call was my company that I own, it is becoming a legal issue with my partner so I filled my Mom in on what was happening, because is is devastating, I've been back stabbed and it hurts like heck. I was emotional, she asked how my wife and I were, and I paused for like two minutes, and she knew immediately we were not doing well either. So while I reached out to my Mom for different reasons, I still shared some things with her in a moment of weakness that my wife didn't want me to share and that was wrong. I've since apologized. I made sure and let my Mom know at the end of the conversation that what is between Grace and I is between Grace and I alone, but that I appreciated her kind words of encouragement.
How does Grace feel about the words of encouragement? I know how Prisca felt when my parents did the same thing.
Hi Hilltopper,
I noticed something in your recent post that reminded me of...., well, reminded me of me.
It was my ease of willingness to suggest to my wife that she lie or that I even lie on her behalf. It was like I was telling her she wasn't strong enough to lie to get out of a commitment on her own, so I could demonstrate my great character and just rescue her by lying for her.
My wife could never put her finger on it prior to MB, but she discovered that I depleted a great deal of love units any time I suggested she lie, or that I lie for her.
I'm refering to this quote;
I even told her that no matter who it is, use me as the excuse as to why she doesn't want to go anywhere because this is hard for her to do so. I've offered to send a text for her from my phone, or call someone and politely decline that we have plans already, etc. She has refused my help with this.
And then you proceeded to follow up similar to the way I used to.
How?
I would suggest she tell little white lies and then I'd preach to her about morals and values, similar to what you do in the very next quote;
If my belief it is the courteous and moral thing to do to honor our commitments with others is damaging to my marriage then I will cease suggesting to my wife that will follow through again.
Both of what I've quoted can deplete love units quickly....
The first is dishonesty..... Kinda self explainatory!
The second is a DJ.
A DJ because you are suggesting she doesn't know what courteous, moral, honor and commitments are, so you'll just have to remind her. Oh yea, I forgot the part where you remind her she needs you to teach her about the importance of following through.......
I've been there done that..... ALL of that! And I always thought I was doing her a favor by pointing all these things out to her. (Not so much) She usually rewarded my valiant efforts with a lot of silence.
Being aware of an issue is about 70% of what leads you toward solutions....
I Promise To Love, Honor and Cherish!
To leave my Parents and become ONE with my wife!
These are easy to say, and tough to follow through with in real life.
I blew it in all the above!
I've spent the past four years repairing the damage I wrecklessly created by forgetting those simple statements.
My role today is SIMPLE;
To PROTECT and To LOVE my wife above all others.
The beauty of living this way today;
Everything else seems to fall into place by following those two simple precepts...... Protect and Love!
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Nothing.
Yep.
I've always been of the train of thought that people that make commitments should follow through on them. I told her that.
This is not doing nothing. In fact, this can very easily be seen as pressuring your wife to do something she doesn't want to do.
Your wife comes first. She comes before any other commitments to any other people, including family.
Taking the effort to be courteous to family and friends to the point of neglecting your spouse's feelings is a very, very easy trap to fall into. Many have done it. But it will need to stop in order to show care for your wife.
How do you stop it? POJA.
Yes we are working on that. For the most part we have both decided to postpone working on any relationships with my family until our marriage is healthy. I think it worth mentioning that I don't really bring it up, my wife reaches out to me about it and since it is a tough subject I may not be skilled enough to respond properly for the reasons I've mentioned. If she brings it up again, I'll likely politely suggest we do so in the future.
I typically don't like to discuss the "who's fault is it" because I'm compromised on what I believe to be true vs supporting my wife.
Another good reason not to discuss whose fault it is is that fault is completely irrelevant.
I don't have time to comment much yet, but let me just say that your family is disrespectfully judging your wife.
There are two Marriage Builders book chapters that can really help you with this. One is in His Needs, Her Needs For Parents, chapter 14. And the other is in Love Busters, Chapter 9.
Yes you are correct fault is irrelevant which is while I'll likely decline the conversation next time my wife brings it up until we are MUCH further down the road with my wife.
Question: If Grace is reluctant to spend time with your mother, what should you do?
Nothing.
Yep.
Next question:
If Grace is reluctant about you spending time with your mother, or spending time on the phone with your mother, what should you do?
I'll do what I have done since my discussion last week, nothing. I have spoken to my Dad however about the business side of things. You suggested an "If" scenario above. My wife is ok with me talking to my Mom, however not about A. Our Marriage, or B. Her relationship with my wife. I'll abide by that until we agree on who talks to who, when, and about what. I'm not really concerned about any feelings of "losing my Mom" or anything close to it, neither is my wife. For now though we are working on us because that is the best for both of us.
I described it as "my mom throughout a life raft and I took it." She noticed a change in her son, she knew something was not right. The purpose of the call was my company that I own, it is becoming a legal issue with my partner so I filled my Mom in on what was happening, because is is devastating, I've been back stabbed and it hurts like heck. I was emotional, she asked how my wife and I were, and I paused for like two minutes, and she knew immediately we were not doing well either. So while I reached out to my Mom for different reasons, I still shared some things with her in a moment of weakness that my wife didn't want me to share and that was wrong. I've since apologized. I made sure and let my Mom know at the end of the conversation that what is between Grace and I is between Grace and I alone, but that I appreciated her kind words of encouragement.
How does Grace feel about the words of encouragement? I know how Prisca felt when my parents did the same thing.
Please ask her. From her feedback I'd say she loves the support from my Mom, but is not enthusiastic about our discussion we had together.
I Promise To Love, Honor and Cherish!
To leave my Parents and become ONE with my wife!
These are easy to say, and tough to follow through with in real life.
I blew it in all the above!
I've spent the past four years repairing the damage I wrecklessly created by forgetting those simple statements.
My role today is SIMPLE;
To PROTECT and To LOVE my wife above all others.
The beauty of living this way today;
Everything else seems to fall into place by following those two simple precepts...... Protect and Love!
Well written and insightful post PapaBear. I can see from my attempts to help my wife, she may have been offended by it instead which is why she never took me up on the offer. To be more specific, I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans." This is not true for my wife. Is it a lie or a white lie? I don't know man, all that matters is that my wife has a hard time saying no and that bites her in the [censored] sometimes, just ask her. I'm not judging her for it, in fact it is almost quite endearing that she is that honest, I was just trying to make things a bit easier for her. She has declined my offer to help in this area so for now I'll wait to be asked.
My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together.
This says it all!
Openness and Honesty are high needs of your wife's! You better pay attention to that...
Is it a lie or a white lie? I don't know man,,,,,
Let me help you with this one before you end up going down a rabbit hole with no return;
It's Dishonesty!
There is no such thing as a half-truth, white lie, partial truth, etc. .......
They are all 100% LIES
When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!
It really is simplier than you think.
I hope that helps you get a handle on it.....
I need the reminders too!
It used to be tough for me to understand prior to four years ago, not so much anymore.... we must keep it simple.
My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together.
This says it all!
Openness and Honesty are high needs of your wife's! You better pay attention to that...
Is it a lie or a white lie? I don't know man,,,,,
Let me help you with this one before you end up going down a rabbit hole with no return;
It's Dishonesty!
There is no such thing as a half-truth, white lie, partial truth, etc. .......
They are all 100% LIES
When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!
It really is simplier than you think.
I hope that helps you get a handle on it.....
I need the reminders too!
It used to be tough for me to understand prior to four years ago, not so much anymore.... we must keep it simple.
I'm not debating you on this, but I do want your perspective on honesty as it is different from what I understand it to be. If we do not want to hang out with someone, whether it be friends, my mother, her mother, etc, should we always be radically honest and say, "I'm sorry I just don't want to hang out with you tonight." If my wife and I prefer to play Scrabble rather than hang out with someone, can we not say, "I'm sorry we already have plans?" Or are you saying it is ok to say we have plans if we already agreed to play Scrabble, but it is not ok to tell them "we have plans" unless we specifically already spoke to each other and made a decision we were gonna stay home and play Scrabble? See the difference?
You said, "When you leave out information that suits you...... It's a blatent lie!" So if it suits me to not admit that I do not want to hang out with a certain friend, family member, or individual, then I am in fact lying? I will say again I think it is perfectly ok to tell someone, "Thanks for the invite, but we already have plans!" It appears that you do not think making that statement is ok, am I correct in understanding you?
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."
![[Linked Image from i717.photobucket.com]](http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/soapbox.gif)
UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."
UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.
It is indeed! My wife went to the gym this morning at 530am. Her friend invited her to spin class, she asked me if it would be ok if she goes and I agreed. Baby woke up as soon as she left, this is pretty common. When my wife got home I asked her how class was, she said fine. She asked me how baby was and I told her that she had awakened as soon as she had left. I told my wife that one or two days a week would be totally cool with me if she wanted to work out with her friend, but that 3 days a week or more might be something I would not be enthusiastic about. Her faced changed, it became concerned. I asked her if she felt if her "freedom was gone" and she said "yes."
I tell you the story because this has been an issue in the past with my wife having a strong desire to run or workout with her friends. Part of this is because I have not filled that role in the past. I understand her position. I did propose we workout together after work each day, and she was not enthusiastic about that either because I've lectured her "form" and stuff before which was a stupid thing to do. She wants to work out with friends, not with me, and I can't make her. I am concerned though that my wife will begin to rekindle the "good ole days" of meeting at the gym 5 days a week and sometimes Saturday mornings, to which I'll definitely feel hurt and neglected once again so I need to make sure I don't just agree to it to keep the peace.
I don't offer to lie for my wife, instead I wanted to simply say, "We have other plans." My wife has expressed that she is not ok with that, unless we actually do have other plans with another couple or together. From my perspective, us watching tv on the couch or playing scrabble together constitutes "other plans."
UA time is "having plans." UA time, as you two may be figuring out, are the most important plans of every single day.
It is indeed! My wife went to the gym this morning at 530am. Her friend invited her to spin class, she asked me if it would be ok if she goes and I agreed. Baby woke up as soon as she left, this is pretty common. When my wife got home I asked her how class was, she said fine. She asked me how baby was and I told her that she had awakened as soon as she had left. I told my wife that one or two days a week would be totally cool with me if she wanted to work out with her friend, but that 3 days a week or more might be something I would not be enthusiastic about. Her faced changed, it became concerned. I asked her if she felt if her "freedom was gone" and she said "yes."
I tell you the story because this has been an issue in the past with my wife having a strong desire to run or workout with her friends. Part of this is because I have not filled that role in the past. I understand her position. I did propose we workout together after work each day, and she was not enthusiastic about that either because I've lectured her "form" and stuff before which was a stupid thing to do. She wants to work out with friends, not with me, and I can't make her. I am concerned though that my wife will begin to rekindle the "good ole days" of meeting at the gym 5 days a week and sometimes Saturday mornings, to which I'll definitely feel hurt and neglected once again so I need to make sure I don't just agree to it to keep the peace.
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.
Hilltopper,
All I'm telling you is;
Don't ask your wife to lie.
And,
Don't lie to or for your wife.
I'm going to suggest that you ALWAYS POJA with each other prior to making plans with friends and family. You should never have to lie to anyone, just tell them you need to check with your spouse and you'll get back with them. If either of you aren't ENTHUSIASTIC about getting together with someone then just politely pass and move on. You don't need to let them down easy or lie, you just tell them you already have plans.
If your mom, or whomever, were to press you on what your plans are,,,,, You have a date scheduled with your wife for a scrabble game and some hot sex afterwards. Sorry if thats TMI mom, but you asked... lol
Neither of you should ever agree to plans with someone until your calender of UA time is set. ONLY after UA is met do you schedule anything else. And YES, a game of scrabble is a date time with your wife. It's really no ones business what your plans are, just that you have plans, unless you want to make them blush.
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.
It is good you are taking the time to gather your thoughts on this. Think carefully. Many husbands are unhappy when their wives become unfit or overweight, and wish they could inspire them to go to the gym. You've got a fit and attractive wife who is rising at 5:30am to get her exercise done at the gym--with a baby at home yet!
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.
Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.
Even though I am not a vet, I think we share similar tendencies so I wanted to share a recent epiphany that relates to this. I thought I have been trying to do the POJA for a year now. The truth is, I haven't been doing it right because I have been focusing on me too much.
This morning, I did it correctly. My H wanted to go to the bar with work colleagues this Friday and I would normally say, "No, I am not comfortable with that because some of them are single women, you can't go." This time, instead of telling him no, I started negotiating. I said, "What if they came to our house so you can show them the recent renovations you did and I will make my appetizers you love?" He thought that was the best idea ever and immediately agreed. I got what I wanted, but not at his expense. In fact, I am kind of excited about it, I like to host. My old approach would have resulted in a fight, him claiming I am trying to take away his freedom, and him going anyway and probably staying longer just to spite me.
I do think we need to be able to tell our spouses when something bothers us. But, we need to think about how we can make them happy in the process. We don't want to remove their happiness in order to increase ours. What if you got workout equipment at home so she could sleep in an hour longer rather than driving to the gym? What if you went with her but worked out on different machines? What if you two took up a new hobby together like racquetball or tennis? Get creative and try to think about things that could make you both happy.
In fact the more I learn about MB and the more I think about it I'm not sure I feel good about her going to the gym with her friends or by herself anyways. She has told me about the flirting that goes on in spin class in the past, she is very attractive, etc. Flirting and sexual undertones are a part of spin classes, and my wife has also confirmed how shocked she was about all of the A's that were going in her gym. With where we are today in our marriage, and with the knowledge we have I'd say that the best plan to have our needs only met by each other is for her to discontinue going to her gym. Knowing all of this does not make feel secure. This negotiation is gonna be a doozy I believe. She enjoys it a lot, her friends go to it and will be "putting the pressure" on her to attend. I need to gather my thoughts an let her know how I feel about the subject.
It is good you are taking the time to gather your thoughts on this. Think carefully. Many husbands are unhappy when their wives become unfit or overweight, and wish they could inspire them to go to the gym. You've got a fit and attractive wife who is rising at 5:30am to get her exercise done at the gym--with a baby at home yet!
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.
Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?
I'm not worried about my wife ever not being attractive to me, she is too fit with our without the gym for that to happen. I'm not worried that she'll even "get into mischief" at the gym. What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled. It is not that I don't think I am not able to meet her needs as well as another, it is that I'm still learning to do so, and that takes time. In the past she spent an inordinate amount of time with her friends I'm sure because it felt good, but that was without her husband. So while I DO want her to have a fulfilling workout life, I DO NOT want her to have that workout life take precedence over our marriage. I grew resentful in the past about it and she knows this. I don't want her to feel that I'm attempting to "cut out her freedom" but I have a history of agreeing to everything and then being sorry I did so in the past and so I need to think it through and be honest about it up front.
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.
Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?
This is not MB advice. Take some time to get to understand the Mb program before giving advice.
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.
Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?
This is not MB advice. Take some time to get to understand the Mb program before giving advice.
Thanks KT, I didn't think it was. No offense Josie.
If you take the gym away from her, she would likely miss the workouts and the endorphins they bring, not to mention the fitness benefits. She might miss that time with her friends, and she might resent you for taking it away from her. You might not enjoy her company as much if she gets pudgy, grumpy, and resentful.
Also, realistically, what kind of mischief could she possibly get up to at that hour with her baby waiting at home for her?
All you are saying here is that she should place her friends and her workouts above him. How in the world would that help their marriage?
That advice does not comport with Marriage Builders at all. Maybe you could familiarize yourself with MB before you give out advice here?
What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled.
Bingo. She is creating a "point of comparison" -- she enjoys being with her friends at the gym a whole lot, and she compares it to the time she has with you, and she likes the gym a whole lot more. This will make it difficult for YOU to fill her Love Bank.
I've posted to her about this before, but I don't know if she remembers. The two of you need to be each other's favorite recreational companion. Until that is a reality, you do not need to be spending time away from each other doing your own thing.
What my concern is that she may find another source to meet her ENs better than I can at this stage in our marriage. That is prohibitive to our Love Banks becoming filled.
Bingo. She is creating a "point of comparison" -- she enjoys being with her friends at the gym a whole lot, and she compares it to the time she has with you, and she likes the gym a whole lot more. This will make it difficult for YOU to fill her Love Bank.
I've posted to her about this before, but I don't know if she remembers. The two of you need to be each other's favorite recreational companion. Until that is a reality, you do not need to be spending time away from each other doing your own thing.
Gosh I'm glad you agree, the gym thing scares the heck out of me on a lot of levels. This is all part of the interdependence thing we are both gonna have to get used to. It is easier for me than it is for her. My only regular buddy I used to golf with moved to another state, so the rest of my friends are other couples that are also friends with my wife. My wife on the other hand has dozens of friends that she regularly communicates with. I love that she is social with them as they have small children like we do and most of it revolves around activities. The gym part however is not related to the kids, and that is the one that bothers me.
So in an attempt to avoid the dreaded "cycle" my wife and I get into about every 3-5 days, I picked up the workbook this morning and read all LBs and ENs for my wife. I think awareness is key here. The cycle as you recall used to be every two days, so we are doing much better. We had a great conversation, mostly about MB, but also how it was growing up in each of our families. It was really nice to have my wife open up and just share some stories from her youth. I hope she enjoyed the stories I shared as well.
Tomorrow night we've planned a Date Night which is critical since out of the house date we had was Saturday Night. My wife has been tracking our UA time and last night we got in about an hour. It would have been longer but baby has been waking back up about 830pm each night for a short period of time, and only wants my wife to get her back down. That is stressful to her.
Great, Hilltopper! Do you feel like your proactiveness is paying off? Are you keeping a lid on the demands, disrespect, and anger?
Grace tracking UA time is huge. Be sure and express your appreciation for this level of dedication from her!
Great, Hilltopper! Do you feel like your proactiveness is paying off? Are you keeping a lid on the demands, disrespect, and anger?
Grace tracking UA time is huge. Be sure and express your appreciation for this level of dedication from her!
Being proactive is a good thing, but again I think for me personally it is more about being aware of what is going on at all times. I know a couple times yesterday and once this morning, something "bothered" me. It was something my wife said or a look on her face, but I couldn't pin point it. We're not talking blatant things, but nevertheless I felt them. Before I respond if I do respond at all I'm trying to get her mind and understand how she feels.
Last night we did talk a bit more about a vasectomy vs other options. Its not just fear of a vasectomy, there is another issue that would need to be taken care of along with it and I told her that. It is not a 20 minute deal, and certainly not a 48 recovery. I asked her if she would just at least research an be open to discussing things and she was kind of "hand to the face about it." She definitely held the "no sex until we get something done" in my face, that didn't feel good. I told her that what she said kind of bothered me and that "it appears you've already decided for us." We decided to stop discussing at that point and she made sure to say that "she didn't mean it that way." At this point in time I do not believe we've agreed to anything and the only options on the table for her were either wearing condoms, a vasectomy, or no sex. She has reminded me now 30 times that she would have been willing to get tied during the birth of the last kid, but that even that may potentially cause hormonal imbalance problems. I guess what I'm saying is, it has been presented to me that it is in my court to take care of it and that she is unwilling to put anything in her body because she is one that barely likes to take tylenol. She said the same thing about the possibility of taking Welbutrin for depression. I really don't feel like a negotiation is taking place on this subject and as I sit here, it really bothers me a lot on a few levels. One is no sex, which is my #1 EN, but I understand her point of not wanting a fourth child. Another one is that the POJA isn't really POJA because the options are all for me to "make it happen". Lastly I'm scared of feeling neglected as I did before which doesn't bode well for my personality at the present time.
Well, POJA would say that until you decide, you don't have sex. I might be inclined to wear a condom then. You said it's not just a 20 min procedure and 48 hours recovery time. I'm confused. What do you mean by this statement?
For me it was a 46 min procedure from check in until walking out of the clinic and about a 72 hour downtime on the couch. I was back in the gym within 2 weeks doing lighter stuff and then back to squatting and deadlifting within 3-4 weeks.
But you're right. She's not POJAing it.
The vasectomy has a higher chance of side effects than the IUD. FWIW. And, a higher chance of accidental pregnancies.
The copper IUD is a non hormonal option for your wife. However, I love my hormonal, low dose IUD. I have a high risk of blood clots and heart issues, and the IUD was cleared for me. Until my Lupus is stabilized a pregnancy could be life threatening for me, if I can ever carry to term.
There's a newly approved birth control pill for men, which I know nothing of, but it might be an option.
Well, POJA would say that until you decide, you don't have sex. I might be inclined to wear a condom then. You said it's not just a 20 min procedure and 48 hours recovery time. I'm confused. What do you mean by this statement?
For me it was a 46 min procedure from check in until walking out of the clinic and about a 72 hour downtime on the couch. I was back in the gym within 2 weeks doing lighter stuff and then back to squatting and deadlifting within 3-4 weeks.
But you're right. She's not POJAing it.
I need something removed, not life threatening, just better to get it out which makes it more complicated for me. The do nothing part means no sex, I get that.
While SF is your top EN, you cannot expect her to fill that need at her expense. Since there is a conflict over birth control, POJA says to do nothing until both of you are enthusiastic on which birth control method you will use. It doesn't feel like it, but this is to protect both of you.
The default of doing nothing is not supposed to feel good -- it should feel uncomfortable! This will encourage you to look for solutions.
Research some alternatives that you WOULD feel comfortable with and present them to her. She has said on her thread that she was willing to consider alternatives.
Also, be open to listening to her desires -- the reasons behind WHY she believes that vasectomy is the answer. Be open to being persuaded.
There's an answer out there for the two of you. You just have to find it, together.
Also, be open to listening to her desires -- the reasons behind WHY she believes that vasectomy is the answer. Be open to being persuaded.
There's an answer out there for the two of you. You just have to find it, together.
The vasectomy has a higher chance of side effects than the IUD. FWIW. And, a higher chance of accidental pregnancies.
The copper IUD is a non hormonal option for your wife. However, I love my hormonal, low dose IUD. I have a high risk of blood clots and heart issues, and the IUD was cleared for me. Until my Lupus is stabilized a pregnancy could be life threatening for me, if I can ever carry to term.
There's a newly approved birth control pill for men, which I know nothing of, but it might be an option.
She was anti-IUD last night big time! I'm in a tough spot because I know my wife withheld SF from me because we mostly fell out of love until working on MB together. Then we had about a month or so of SF 1-2 times per week which we both very much enjoyed. Then the vasectomy talk really began to escalate to a fever's pitch about two weeks ago, and the sex stopped again. There was one night were we kind of fooled around but there was no sex which didn't turn out good. Then the other night I
asked for it(this is very hard for me to do), got turned down, went downstairs because I felt neglected and wanted to start posting as this is my therapy of sorts. She said I was pouting, and invited me back up for SF. Other than that some things are going great, others are not, SF being one of them. I'm trying to look at it from her side, which is "I don't want to get pregnant," but like I've said before, SF is not up to me EVER. I remember I used to reach over to her in bed unannounced she would respond and we'd have sex. I would NEVER do that now, in fact I hesitate just to put my hand on her body in any way right now. Most of the time her body language says loud and clear, "DON't touch me, got it?"
She doesn't want me to plan babysitters so Date Night isn't up to me. Most things are not up to me because she just bulldozes me and I'm pretty easy going for the most part. I do not like being in this position. I'm gonna do my best to not LB and to meet EN's as my general plan and hopefully in the future she'll be more open and comfortable to letting me provide some input and make some decisions too.
"let" you provide input and make some decisions? What do you mean by that?
Having had 3 accidental pregnancies I understand your wife's side. But, at the same time, SF is so important in a marriage.
Good luck figuring it out!
Edited to add - POJA isn't about her bullying you into decisions. I did that to my DH for a long time, and still sometimes do. We've both gotten better about stepping out of the cycle when we get into it, but you've got to POJA everything or MB won't work. Trust me on that, and I'm no vet.
Do you understand why she didn't like the IUD? It's important to understand her reasons. When you understand each other, it's easier to find solutions.
You've got to stop thinking of "nothing is up to me," or "this is up to her." It's up to BOTH of you. POJA doesn't allow one spouse to be in charge of the other. So, SF is not up to you. It's not up to her, either. It's up to both of you to find a way to make SF enjoyable for both of you.
Most things are not up to me because she just bulldozes me and I'm pretty easy going for the most part.
POJA, if followed, will protect you from being bulldozed over. It will also protect her.
While SF is your top EN, you cannot expect her to fill that need at her expense. Since there is a conflict over birth control, POJA says to do nothing until both of you are enthusiastic on which birth control method you will use. It doesn't feel like it, but this is to protect both of you.
The default of doing nothing is not supposed to feel good -- it should feel uncomfortable! This will encourage you to look for solutions.
Research some alternatives that you WOULD feel comfortable with and present them to her. She has said on her thread that she was willing to consider alternatives.
Right it will be uncomfortable, more so for me which I get.
One option that the two of you may wish to consider is negotiating a temporary solution -- meaning, a birth control that you agree to use short term, a few months maybe. Something non-permanent, such as condoms or a mild hormonal method. Then revisit this issue again in a few months when you have more experience in negotiation.
This is a highly emotional and difficult subject for you to be negotiating when you have very little experience. It's a tough one. Markos and I did it last year, and it was HARD. If you negotiate for a short-term plan, it might take some of the pressure off and allow you to revisit the issue later, when it will be a lot easier to come up with a more permanent plan.
Consider it.
"let" you provide input and make some decisions? What do you mean by that?
I mean exactly what it says. As it stands now my wife frequently makes her mind up about something and that is all there is to it, no other perspective needed. IUD is bad and I might get cancer I think is what she said last night. Where she got that info I don't know, but having the full info hasn't influenced her decision one way or the other in the past, hopefully it will in the future.
Yes, learning POJA on BC is probably not the best thing to learn on.
Try it on laundry detergent. LOL
Do you understand why she didn't like the IUD? It's important to understand her reasons. When you understand each other, it's easier to find solutions.
You've got to stop thinking of "nothing is up to me," or "this is up to her." It's up to BOTH of you. POJA doesn't allow one spouse to be in charge of the other. So, SF is not up to you. It's not up to her, either. It's up to both of you to find a way to make SF enjoyable for both of you.
Most things are not up to me because she just bulldozes me and I'm pretty easy going for the most part.
POJA, if followed, will protect you from being bulldozed over. It will also protect her.
She said with the IUD she has a hundred times greater chance of getting cancer and that she doesn't like to put things in her body. She said she had only been on BCP three months her entire life and it makes her act weird and crave strange foods. She said she didn't like the way a condom felt, but that she'd be willing to try it "one more time" so that is good. She said she would have had her tubes tied had she known I wasn't excited about getting vasectomy, fair enough I had been in the habit of agreeing to things that I'm not enthusiastic about for a long, long time. I asked her if there was no sex with no birth control was oral sex out of the question, she said that is was. I found this odd because this is all I got during her Previa during pregnancy and most of the months after pregnancy. She's provided some feedback, but most of them appear to be closed doors from my perspective, maybe her perspective is different.
"let" you provide input and make some decisions? What do you mean by that?
I mean exactly what it says. As it stands now my wife frequently makes her mind up about something and that is all there is to it, no other perspective needed. IUD is bad and I might get cancer I think is what she said last night. Where she got that info I don't know, but having the full info hasn't influenced her decision one way or the other in the past, hopefully it will in the future.
So far as I know there are no reports that IUDs cause cancer any longer. Years ago the Dalcon Shield did, but the new ones do not. My DH and I set a OB/GYN appt to discuss BC, I wanted both of us to be truely informed and not just be going off folklore or whatever.
There are tons of BC pills, not all work the same. And there is NO increased cancer risk with the IUD. I hate it when mythinformation is spread around. What about Essure? The new tubal insertion that can be done in the doctors office with no anesthetic?
I'm a walking, talking Mirena billboard. And, we paid a pretty penny for mine!
"let" you provide input and make some decisions? What do you mean by that?
I mean exactly what it says. As it stands now my wife frequently makes her mind up about something and that is all there is to it, no other perspective needed. IUD is bad and I might get cancer I think is what she said last night. Where she got that info I don't know, but having the full info hasn't influenced her decision one way or the other in the past, hopefully it will in the future.
So far as I know there are no reports that IUDs cause cancer any longer. Years ago the Dalcon Shield did, but the new ones do not. My DH and I set a OB/GYN appt to discuss BC, I wanted both of us to be truely informed and not just be going off folklore or whatever.
There are tons of BC pills, not all work the same. And there is NO increased cancer risk with the IUD. I hate it when mythinformation is spread around. What about Essure? The new tubal insertion that can be done in the doctors office with no anesthetic?
I'm a walking, talking Mirena billboard. And, we paid a pretty penny for mine!
Well I think an appt is probably in order then. Did you go over the vasectomy option with DH? What were his concerns? Its strange, I've had only two friends that have gotten vasectomies and you'd think that it was state law by my wife's insistence that I get one. I don't like surgery ok? I mean when it was my knees and ankles from playing basketball all those years that is one thing, but despite how it has been presented to me by my wife, and a couple of over guys on this forum who have gotten one, I'm still not very comfortable with the idea, it kind of freaks me out. What about the rest of the world? What have they done to avoid having another child?
One option that the two of you may wish to consider is negotiating a temporary solution -- meaning, a birth control that you agree to use short term, a few months maybe. Something non-permanent, such as condoms or a mild hormonal method. Then revisit this issue again in a few months when you have more experience in negotiation.
This is a highly emotional and difficult subject for you to be negotiating when you have very little experience. It's a tough one. Markos and I did it last year, and it was HARD. If you negotiate for a short-term plan, it might take some of the pressure off and allow you to revisit the issue later, when it will be a lot easier to come up with a more permanent plan.
Consider it.
Well there are two parts to this, one is taking a bit of the pressure of me to "make it happen" and two allowing some possibility of SF happening which is very important to me. I think condoms would be the easiest quickest fix, which both of us agree are not the best but is better than nothing. I think she is open to this or at least open to it one time to try it out again. Last time she did not care for it.
Google "Birth Control Methods" and you will find quite a list of options. There are several barrier methods available, for both men and women. There are many different kinds of condoms -- if she doesn't like the feel of one kind, there are others that feel differently. Many hormonal methods are available, that are easier on the woman's body than the pill -- Implano, Nuvaring ... I've heard talk of a Male Pill, but haven't seen it available yet.
And many of these options can be combined to avoid pregnancy even more effectively.
Point is, there's a lot of options out there if you read around. Ask around. Talking to a doctor would be GREAT.
Well I think an appt is probably in order then. Did you go over the vasectomy option with DH? What were his concerns? Its strange, I've had only two friends that have gotten vasectomies and you'd think that it was state law by my wife's insistence that I get one. I don't like surgery ok? I mean when it was my knees and ankles from playing basketball all those years that is one thing, but despite how it has been presented to me by my wife, and a couple of over guys on this forum who have gotten one, I'm still not very comfortable with the idea, it kind of freaks me out. What about the rest of the world? What have they done to avoid having another child?
We considered the V, but DH and I both personally know a couple of people who had issues after the fact - both were older people, but it ruined their sex life. And, once it's done, it's really hard to reverse, and if you're in the 5% or so that has problems then a reversal doesn't always repair the problems. It wasn't worth the risks.
We went with the Mirena IUD, mine expires in 18 months. If I'm healthy enough we'll probably try for a baby. If not, then we'll get another Mirena. Talking to your OB/GYN, if you and your wife trust them is really the best source of good information on BC. I was on the pill for a year (two different ones).
Well there are two parts to this, one is taking a bit of the pressure of me to "make it happen" and two allowing some possibility of SF happening which is very important to me. I think condoms would be the easiest quickest fix, which both of us agree are not the best but is better than nothing. I think she is open to this or at least open to it one time to try it out again. Last time she did not care for it.
Without the pressure of having to decide right now because NOT getting any sex is just miserable for everybody involved, being about to consider other methods will feel a whole lot easier. Plus, as I said, you do not yet have the skills to negotiate big issues ... it will seem a lot less difficult in a few months after you've negotiated a lot of smaller things and thus have a lot more experience. Your love banks will be fuller then, too, which will also make it easier.
If I were the two of you, I would set a date to revisit the issue a few months down the road.
On the condoms: As I said, there are several different kinds. Some feel better than others to certain women. Read up on that and present her with a few options.
My H had a vasectomy. We agreed while I was preggars with dd7 that if I need a C (it was a possibility) that I would be tied, and if not, he would be snipped. It was very uncomfortable for him for 2-3 days afterwards, but then he was back to normal. Problem was, I was naive about it and believed him when he said the DR told him 'normal activity could be resumed after 30 days without pregancy' and now we have ds6. lol.
If you do decide to do it, use other protection until after at least two sperm checks.
I, personally, would have preferred a hysterectomy.
Not that ds6 isn't a total delight, and I wouldn't trade him for the world.
HIll .. if you go over the last few posts i made on your thread .. one of them tells you my experience with the vasectomy. But to call it a surgery .. i think that is a misused word in this procedure. ITs more like getting a needle. YOu will have no stitches ... and its pretty painless. Getting a filling at the dentist hurts more. I was pretty ramped up and adamant about not doing it when my wife and i discussed it .. but she persuaded me that it was only fair since she gave birth x2. So i reluctantly agreed. Even tho I reluctantly agreed .. i was well rewarded for my effort and compliance!
SO .. whatever you two descide together, I am sure things will work out. BUt IMHO the V was the best choice .. even tho I couldnt see it at the time when i had to make the decision.
MNG
Well I think an appt is probably in order then. Did you go over the vasectomy option with DH? What were his concerns? Its strange, I've had only two friends that have gotten vasectomies and you'd think that it was state law by my wife's insistence that I get one. I don't like surgery ok? I mean when it was my knees and ankles from playing basketball all those years that is one thing, but despite how it has been presented to me by my wife, and a couple of over guys on this forum who have gotten one, I'm still not very comfortable with the idea, it kind of freaks me out. What about the rest of the world? What have they done to avoid having another child?
We considered the V, but DH and I both personally know a couple of people who had issues after the fact - both were older people, but it ruined their sex life. And, once it's done, it's really hard to reverse, and if you're in the 5% or so that has problems then a reversal doesn't always repair the problems. It wasn't worth the risks.
We went with the Mirena IUD, mine expires in 18 months. If I'm healthy enough we'll probably try for a baby. If not, then we'll get another Mirena. Talking to your OB/GYN, if you and your wife trust them is really the best source of good information on BC. I was on the pill for a year (two different ones).
Apparently you are a fan of the IUD? Just guessing.
Apparently you are a fan of the IUD? Just guessing.
You think?
Pregnancy, at this point, could be disasterous, and possibly life threatening to me. It's important that whatever we use is as close to 100% as possible. It was important to me that it be reversible, because we'd like to try for children, at some point, if I'm able. And, I was against barrier methods. The pill was out. So, this was the best option for us.
FWIW, I have Lupus and my heart and kidneys are currently affected. My health is very unstable, and we've had three failed pregnanies. Even though I don't want to get pregnant, SF is imporatnant in a marraiage and sometimes pregnancy is a result. It just happens, no matter how careful you are. If it happens to us, we'll deal with it. If it doesn't happen, until we want it to, we'll be thrilled. And, we may never be that blessed.
HIll .. if you go over the last few posts i made on your thread .. one of them tells you my experience with the vasectomy. But to call it a surgery .. i think that is a misused word in this procedure. ITs more like getting a needle. YOu will have no stitches ... and its pretty painless. Getting a filling at the dentist hurts more. I was pretty ramped up and adamant about not doing it when my wife and i discussed it .. but she persuaded me that it was only fair since she gave birth x2. So i reluctantly agreed. Even tho I reluctantly agreed .. i was well rewarded for my effort and compliance!
SO .. whatever you two descide together, I am sure things will work out. BUt IMHO the V was the best choice .. even tho I couldnt see it at the time when i had to make the decision.
MNG
I'm glad it worked out for you. We are working on our decision together. In the mean time we are gonna come up with a temp solution to take the pressure off both of us.
WTH, Hill. Stop reading women-bashing sites and stick with this program. Seriously. You will boff up your whole family. There is nothing that can go badly for you in the MB program.
Get serious here.
WTH, Hill. Stop reading women-bashing sites and stick with this program. Seriously. You will boff up your whole family. There is nothing that can go badly for you in the MB program.
Get serious here.
I don't subscribe to any other method other than MB. I was searching for better ways to understand how I'm feeling in this marriage. I found an article that I related to in a big way, in fact 80% of it was verbatim on exactly how I feel. We are continuing on our path of MB together and are committed, however I continuously struggle with this general feeling of being weak in this marriage. Its not that I want to "fight back" type of weak, what I mean is I've come to a point where I have very few opinions on much of anything, I'm afraid to make decisions, I'm afraid of messing up things that my wife wants me to do, and I am afraid to tell my wife what I need. So although we've made some progress, I currently go through life receiving what she'll give me, living with it, and not asking for more. Why is it so hard to express myself? My wife said my Mom and sister are the exact same way. When I do say how I'm feeling it never turns out so I become timid about it. I'll try again to use the workbook, or maybe write stuff down in my I-Phone as they happen, and then compile them to be shared with my wife later.
WTH, Hill. Stop reading women-bashing sites and stick with this program. Seriously. You will boff up your whole family. There is nothing that can go badly for you in the MB program.
Get serious here.
I don't subscribe to any other method other than MB. I was searching for better ways to understand how I'm feeling in this marriage. I found an article that I related to in a big way, in fact 80% of it was verbatim on exactly how I feel. We are continuing on our path of MB together and are committed, however I continuously struggle with this general feeling of being weak in this marriage. Its not that I want to "fight back" type of weak, what I mean is I've come to a point where I have very few opinions on much of anything, I'm afraid to make decisions, I'm afraid of messing up things that my wife wants me to do, and I am afraid to tell my wife what I need. So although we've made some progress, I currently go through life receiving what she'll give me, living with it, and not asking for more. Why is it so hard to express myself? My wife said my Mom and sister are the exact same way. When I do say how I'm feeling it never turns out so I become timid about it. I'll try again to use the workbook, or maybe write stuff down in my I-Phone as they happen, and then compile them to be shared with my wife later.
In other words, you found something that communicated how you were feeling.
Ok.
Were you guys not using LB sheets?
Hill, I understand that you are going to do a lot of reflection, but wallowing in past pain isn't going to help you move FORWARD.
WTH, Hill. Stop reading women-bashing sites and stick with this program. Seriously. You will boff up your whole family. There is nothing that can go badly for you in the MB program.
Get serious here.
Hill, ignore the genders, and go through the articles here;
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=4&sublink=29
WTH, Hill. Stop reading women-bashing sites and stick with this program. Seriously. You will boff up your whole family. There is nothing that can go badly for you in the MB program.
Get serious here.
I don't subscribe to any other method other than MB. I was searching for better ways to understand how I'm feeling in this marriage. I found an article that I related to in a big way, in fact 80% of it was verbatim on exactly how I feel. We are continuing on our path of MB together and are committed, however I continuously struggle with this general feeling of being weak in this marriage. Its not that I want to "fight back" type of weak, what I mean is I've come to a point where I have very few opinions on much of anything, I'm afraid to make decisions, I'm afraid of messing up things that my wife wants me to do, and I am afraid to tell my wife what I need. So although we've made some progress, I currently go through life receiving what she'll give me, living with it, and not asking for more. Why is it so hard to express myself? My wife said my Mom and sister are the exact same way. When I do say how I'm feeling it never turns out so I become timid about it. I'll try again to use the workbook, or maybe write stuff down in my I-Phone as they happen, and then compile them to be shared with my wife later.
In other words, you found something that communicated how you were feeling.
Ok.
Were you guys not using LB sheets?
Hill, I understand that you are going to do a lot of reflection, but wallowing in past pain isn't going to help you move FORWARD.
Yes it was helpful to find out some of the feelings I have because "playing in the game" I'm not always sure what they are if that makes sense. I know I feel bad, but I can't always tell why. Its like a big confusing haze that is hard to navigate.
No we were not using the workbooks to track LBs.
I wouldn't call it "wallowing in the past", I am making an honest effort to try and comprehend what the hell is going on in an effort to express myself which is the first problem. I tend not to. I bottle up. After 38 years of bottling up, it is hard to just change the next day you know? Many of my efforts of expressing myself are misguided or full of "guesses" as to how something makes me feel. When it comes to asking for EN's to be met, I just don't know how to handle the rejection, so I typically get upset and don't ask again. I told my wife I might want to meet with a therapist or SH to help me express myself better and not take rejection so hard.
No we were not using the workbooks to track LBs.
Why are you expecting success when you skip important parts of the program like this?
I can't count the number of times I've mentioned that Dr. Harley and the coach he assigned us have told us that very few couples can successfully have a conversation where they tell each other, on the fly, about abusive behavior. It just doesn't work. It causes a fight, and you guys need to avoid fighting at all costs.
We've given you the way to communicate this without having a fight. Why don't you do it? Then plan doesn't work if it's not followed, Hill, and we really, really want you to follow it, because it really does work!
I am making an honest effort to try and comprehend what the hell is going on in an effort to express myself which is the first problem.
I do not believe expressing yourself is the first problem, and I do not recall Dr. Harley telling you this.
When it comes to asking for EN's to be met, I just don't know how to handle the rejection, so I typically get upset and don't ask again.
The way to handle that is to quit giving up and keep practicing inviting Grace to join you, while avoiding demands, disrespect, and anger.
I've written this before. It'll work if you do it, it won't work if you don't. If I write it again, will you try it? Can we get you focused back on working this plan to make things better in your marriage?
By the way, most marriage-counseling style material out there is written for depressed women and doesn't translate so well to emotional men.
I told my wife I might want to meet with a therapist or SH to help me express myself better and not take rejection so hard.
Hill, I'll save you the money. Let me teach you how to express yourself better:
"How would you feel about ... ?"
"I'd like it if you'd ..."
"It bothers me when you ..."
That plus avoiding demands, disrespect, and anger, is all there is to expressing yourself.
The real problem is that when you express yourself and Grace doesn't respond the way you want, you respond with demands, disrespect, or anger. You don't have a problem expressing yourself; you have a problem wanting to control Grace's response.
Until you learn to graciously accept Grace's response even when it's not the response you wanted, you will be stuck here. Until you learn to graciously accept Grace's response even when it's not the response you want, you are making demands, and you can expect no improvement in your marriage.
Grace is probably not going to be enthusiastic about meeting your needs, long term, until she has seen a track record of you NOT responding with demands, disrespect, or anger when you express yourself and she responds in a way you do not want.
Call one of those friends and say "I was hoping to plan a date with Grace. Would you be available on X? Really? Great! I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to see if she's interested, and then call you back to confirm. I'm not sure if we'll be taking the baby or not." Then tell Grace you've arranged babysitting for X night and tell her you'd like to take her out. Give her the option of taking the baby or not. Give her the option of saying yes or no. Give her some selected date activities to choose from, and give her the option of proposing her own suggestions.
You are going to have to learn the skill of making a date with your wife!
I see Grace is still arranging babysitting.
Since coming to Marriage Builders, how many times have you arranged babysitting? How many times has Grace done it?
It will deposit valuable love units if you do more of the planning and arranging for dates.
Hill...may I ask why you are unwilling to get a vasectomy but at the same time expect grace to take care of the birth control issue herself...through IUD, bc, etc. You seem frustrated that she is not willing to choose one of the options women have while you are refusing the option men have.
For what it is worth...my H had a vasectomy and was back playing golf 3 days later.
Call one of those friends and say "I was hoping to plan a date with Grace. Would you be available on X? Really? Great! I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to see if she's interested, and then call you back to confirm. I'm not sure if we'll be taking the baby or not." Then tell Grace you've arranged babysitting for X night and tell her you'd like to take her out. Give her the option of taking the baby or not. Give her the option of saying yes or no. Give her some selected date activities to choose from, and give her the option of proposing her own suggestions.
You are going to have to learn the skill of making a date with your wife!
I see Grace is still arranging babysitting.
Since coming to Marriage Builders, how many times have you arranged babysitting? How many times has Grace done it?
It will deposit valuable love units if you do more of the planning and arranging for dates.
I asked her specifically and she said verbatim, "I don't want you to arrange for babysitters."
Hill...may I ask why you are unwilling to get a vasectomy but at the same time expect grace to take care of the birth control issue herself...through IUD, bc, etc. You seem frustrated that she is not willing to choose one of the options women have while you are refusing the option men have.
For what it is worth...my H had a vasectomy and was back playing golf 3 days later.
Huh? Where did you gather my wife and I are not exploring all options together? I sent her a list of the issues I have with getting a vasectomy. We have yet to meet with doctor to go over all other options, that is next week.
? Where did you gather my wife and I are not exploring all options together? I sent her a list of the issues I have with getting a vasectomy. We have yet to meet with doctor to go over all other options, that is next week.
I'm glad y'all are going together.
It just appeared to me that you are unwilling to do what you can for birth control (vasectomy) but expect your wife to be willing to take birth control, get an IUD , whatever. I guess the only options I see you focusing on are options that require her to do something be it take bc, get an IUD, etc.
I realize you have legitimate concerns regarding an vasectomy and why you don't want one...do you realize your wife has legitimate concerns regarding bc or an IUD and why she doesn't want to go those routes?
I'm not saying you aren't discussing options together. I'm saying the only options seem to be focused on her.
It just appeared to me that you are unwilling to do what you can for birth control (vasectomy) but expect your wife to be willing to take birth control, get an IUD , whatever. I guess the only options I see you focusing on are options that require her to do something be it take bc, get an IUD, etc.
I realize you have legitimate concerns regarding an vasectomy and why you don't want one...do you realize your wife has legitimate concerns regarding bc or an IUD and why she doesn't want to go those routes?
I'm not saying you aren't discussing options together. I'm saying the only options seem to be focused on her.
Rubydoo,
Having not read my wife's post on that subject, I know not what you mean! We are using POJA to decide a solution, no one has decided the solution has to work only for her. Either you came to that conclusion on your own incorrectly, or my wife has posted something that has said something similar. Either case, let me say it again, we are deciding together on the best course of action for us whether it be me, her, or both of us.
Call one of those friends and say "I was hoping to plan a date with Grace. Would you be available on X? Really? Great! I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to see if she's interested, and then call you back to confirm. I'm not sure if we'll be taking the baby or not." Then tell Grace you've arranged babysitting for X night and tell her you'd like to take her out. Give her the option of taking the baby or not. Give her the option of saying yes or no. Give her some selected date activities to choose from, and give her the option of proposing her own suggestions.
You are going to have to learn the skill of making a date with your wife!
I see Grace is still arranging babysitting.
Since coming to Marriage Builders, how many times have you arranged babysitting? How many times has Grace done it?
It will deposit valuable love units if you do more of the planning and arranging for dates.
I arranged the date last weekend, remember? VIP, meet the Sushi Chef, Four Seasons Hotel, etc? I intend to do that again tonight, but she has expressed a desire to plan the babysitters on her own.
I have not read anything in your wife's post about this except that you were unwilling to get a vasectomy. Which I thought you said the same on your thread here. I'm sorry...my bad.
Yes it was helpful to find out some of the feelings I have because "playing in the game" I'm not always sure what they are if that makes sense. I know I feel bad, but I can't always tell why. Its like a big confusing haze that is hard to navigate.
No we were not using the workbooks to track LBs.
I wouldn't call it "wallowing in the past", I am making an honest effort to try and comprehend what the hell is going on in an effort to express myself which is the first problem. I tend not to. I bottle up. After 38 years of bottling up, it is hard to just change the next day you know? Many of my efforts of expressing myself are misguided or full of "guesses" as to how something makes me feel. When it comes to asking for EN's to be met, I just don't know how to handle the rejection, so I typically get upset and don't ask again. I told my wife I might want to meet with a therapist or SH to help me express myself better and not take rejection so hard.
Hill, YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS. It is more common than you realize, and more common that most people want to admit.
I especially emphasized in red.
Let me tell you what drew me to MB (primarily through Dr. Harley's articles); I found things on the page that resonated exactly with what I was feeling, but had no words for.
I don't give a flying hoot what anybody says, it's OK.
But, you fouled up - big time - with this article and how you handled it.
It was a gamble even introducing MB to your W. Luckily, that gamble paid.
This last gamble did NOT.
When you find something like this, and shell it out, you are basically throwing raw emotion at your W. She has agreed to, and is working on, viewing things through an MB lens. Whatever you do from here out needs to be filtered through that lens so that the two of you are speaking a common language.
The next time you hang yourself up on something like this, STOP. Print it out. Read, and reread it. Highlight and note.
THEN; get out your MB materials, and work on translating what you are getting out of that as to how it fits with THIS LANGUAGE.
If it does NOT fit in this language, DISCARD IT. PERIOD.
Once you have translated your feeling into MB language, use the framework provided by Markos.
Yes it was helpful to find out some of the feelings I have because "playing in the game" I'm not always sure what they are if that makes sense. I know I feel bad, but I can't always tell why. Its like a big confusing haze that is hard to navigate.
No we were not using the workbooks to track LBs.
I wouldn't call it "wallowing in the past", I am making an honest effort to try and comprehend what the hell is going on in an effort to express myself which is the first problem. I tend not to. I bottle up. After 38 years of bottling up, it is hard to just change the next day you know? Many of my efforts of expressing myself are misguided or full of "guesses" as to how something makes me feel. When it comes to asking for EN's to be met, I just don't know how to handle the rejection, so I typically get upset and don't ask again. I told my wife I might want to meet with a therapist or SH to help me express myself better and not take rejection so hard.
Hill, YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS. It is more common than you realize, and more common that most people want to admit.
I especially emphasized in red.
Let me tell you what drew me to MB (primarily through Dr. Harley's articles); I found things on the page that resonated exactly with what I was feeling, but had no words for.
I don't give a flying hoot what anybody says, it's OK.
But, you fouled up - big time - with this article and how you handled it.
It was a gamble even introducing MB to your W. Luckily, that gamble paid.
This last gamble did NOT.
When you find something like this, and shell it out, you are basically throwing raw emotion at your W. She has agreed to, and is working on, viewing things through an MB lens. Whatever you do from here out needs to be filtered through that lens so that the two of you are speaking a common language.
The next time you hang yourself up on something like this, STOP. Print it out. Read, and reread it. Highlight and note.
THEN; get out your MB materials, and work on translating what you are getting out of that as to how it fits with THIS LANGUAGE.
If it does NOT fit in this language, DISCARD IT. PERIOD.
Once you have translated your feeling into MB language, use the framework provided by Markos.
Thanks for this. I consciously knew that my bringing up this article would cause their to be problems. I held on to it for a long time actually. Despite my mistake, I feel a sense of clarity actually, and I'm working on quite a few things that appear to be helping. One is taking a step back when I'm feeling something but yet don't know what it is. I can spot a DJ from my wife if it is obviously, but when you start adding in context, facial expressions, etc, things can quickly get confusing. So for now the best approach is to say nothing, analyze, then act accordingly with MB principles. This would be jotting a note down in my Iphone.
One of the other things is trying to understand what my wife is saying when she makes a comment. She can be a bit "abrasive" to say the least. Sometimes her comment is an honest attempt at asking a question, but sounds like a DJ, and it is hard for me to tell the difference. I grew up in a very respectful household, so anything that sounds abrasive or disrespectful I tend to take that way. Sometimes nothing was meant by it and I'm learning how to ask my wife if I'm not very sure rather than clamming up and feeling offended. I have to say that this disconnect between my wife and I has created problems our entire marriage, yet it isn't really anyone's fault, its just how we are. When you put together two people, one of which is a tad abrasive with her verbage, and one who is very sensitive to abrasive language, it is not a good mix. Let me say one more time that I do not use the word "abrasive" in a negative way to describe my wife's comments at times so if there is a better word you can think of I'd be happy to use that instead.
Hill,
Are you still considering calling Steve Harley for phone counseling? You mentioned it a few posts up, and it seems like a great idea.
You both sound so well intentioned; it is sad to keep reading the unintentional hurt you cause each other, and it seems some professional coaching would help.
I'm wishing the best for you both.
Hill,
It seems like the most bang for your buck would be the online program. Since you are both really engaged in learning MB, it seems like it would be a great choice for you two.
Hill,
It seems like the most bang for your buck would be the online program. Since you are both really engaged in learning MB, it seems like it would be a great choice for you two.
We are using all of the tools online, and it is working. We use the workbook, and are both reading HNHN for Parents, which is great. Some of this stuff is just a learning process that takes time.
Here is an example of me not being sure what to think about my wife's behavior. This morning my son got the paper and I made coffee and brought it up to her in bed. I wanted to start the day off right. She wasn't really "awake" yet so it didn't turn out but that is ok. When she did come down she was noticeably depressed, even said she was. My first instinct when she is depressed is that it is because of me. I walk on egg shells when she is depressed and don't feel good about anything until she comes out of her depression or we talk things through. She didn't come out of it so eventually I said, "Honey, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that I'm concerned about you." She said, "Look I have a lot on my mind and I'm just having a bad day. She told me it had nothing to do with me, it was just the baby is wearing her down(me too!) and she can't go back and workout at the gym anymore for now. So baby is clearly taking her toll on my wife. We are trying to get her adjusted to her crib, she doesn't like that, screams for 30-45 mins, sleeps for 10, then wakes up and screams some more. This is 3 times a day and it is brutal. I'm sure some of you remember those days or are going through them now.
I want to help my wife and assist, but she keeps declining my offers for help. If I start doing the dishes, she says, "you don't have to do that." If I offer to switch with her to feed baby she declines my help. The reason for this is because I had expressed that at times she asks me to do things all day long, I refer to them as "askathons." When she does this I feel taken advantage of. Keep in mind I already do more than the average Dad I believe. I shop for groceries, cook, do dishes, bath kids, etc. Ever since I mentioned that it bothers me when she does the "askathon" she says that "I'll never ask you anything again then!" I figured she was just upset and said that out of anger, but she has held to it. I told her that I didn't think this was the solution, nor was it done through POJA. I said I'd like to find a balance to which she declined again, confirming she won't ask me for anything ever again. I don't know what to do with this. When my wife asked me to do anything and everything for her, I felt taken advantage of. Now when my wife refuses my attempts to help her with anything, which makes me feel just as bad. This is very confusing to say the least.
On my phone, so short and simple.
Doing dishes has nothing to do with her request, unless you truly hate it. If you want to do the dishes, do them. If you want to do some laundry, do it. If these things don't make you miserable to do, it at least keeps you busy while she deals with her funk, and can open up time for UA.
"You don't have to do that..."
"Thank you, dear. I'm doing it because I want/like to."
On my phone, so short and simple.
Doing dishes has nothing to do with her request, unless you truly hate it. If you want to do the dishes, do them. If you want to do some laundry, do it. If these things don't make you miserable to do, it at least keeps you busy while she deals with her funk, and can open up time for UA.
"You don't have to do that..."
"Thank you, dear. I'm doing it because I want/like to."
Doing these things don't make me miserable, in fact I do the cooking so I like to have the kitchen clean before I do. I'm not sure what you mean about it "can open up time for UA." Please explain.
Simple, if the household work is done, then UA or FC time can be fulfilled.
Make more sense?
Simple, if the household work is done, then UA or FC time can be fulfilled.
Make more sense?
Perfect sense.
I'm a recovering slob, Hill, so this was an easy lesson for me. Though, I have to learn to relax, too. When I clean I move furniture and cushions, scrub and dust, etc. It was rare, though, that I did my part. One key is to respectfully recognize that the differences in how FWW and I clean are both OK AND productive.
I'm a recovering slob, Hill, so this was an easy lesson for me. Though, I have to learn to relax, too. When I clean I move furniture and cushions, scrub and dust, etc. It was rare, though, that I did my part. One key is to respectfully recognize that the differences in how FWW and I clean are both OK AND productive.
I hear ya. My wife and I are very different. This biggest single difference is that I'm a minimalist and she is the opposite. We both clean the house and like it fairly tidy, but my wife can't relax until everything is put in its place, where as I can. Where we get into trouble is where I am ready to relax but she is ready to clean. As we go through this process, planning everything is gonna help much more. If I know prior to getting up Saturday morning that we'll spending an hour in the garage organizing, the more likely I am to be ready and prepared mentally to do so. We are NOT good at planning yet, but we are working on it.
Ok. Back on track;
What are grace's top 3 EN's?
What are you doing to meet them?
What are you worst LB's?
What are you doing to avoid them?
How much UA time have you gotten in the past week?
What are you doing to ensure you get 20+ hours each week?
Ok. Back on track;
What are grace's top 3 EN's?
What are you doing to meet them?
What are you worst LB's?
What are you doing to avoid them?
How much UA time have you gotten in the past week?
What are you doing to ensure you get 20+ hours each week?
Well now that you mention it.....
Yesterday afternoon while she was showering, I grabbed the workbook and scanned through it to make sure I was on track. I focused on Top 2 ENs which are Financial Support and Admiration. I wrote her a check for weekly groceries and spending and wrote another check for the cleaner that is coming next week. I pointed out how proud I was of her for being a good Mom and how attractive I thought she was at the party we had to attend. We had wonderful night. It ended well if you know what I mean after we held hands and played footsies all night.
My worst LB is dishonesty. My dishonest involves holding in my feelings. I try not to do that. Instead I put a note in my iphone to be shared later. We did 16.5 hours last week, and last night was a good 3 including a good 20 minutes of making wontons together for the party. I'm not sure what schedule we are for tracking, but I'm gonna ask my wife this morning.
Has anyone experienced somewhat of a "mourning period" as it pertains to your pre-marriagebuilders life and your post-marriagebuilders life? What I mean is despite the very positive and exciting of rebuilding a marriage, did anyone feel sad that they could no longer engage in some of the independent behavior or lifestyles that got them into trouble in the first place? The changes we make through the MB Program inevitably will cause us to eliminate certain pieces of our lives that we might have found enjoyable but that was an LB for our spouse. So although the journey ends up being well worth it, the inevitable change might also cause some "mourning" along the way. I'd like your thoughts and experiences on the subject.
It's different. As you get comfortable with the program and learn to POJA, you'll find alternatives that make you both happy. As an example, I used to play indoor soccer at times that my wife didn't like and it took away family and UA time. We found a solution in which worked for both of us. The conflict was. Not the activity but the time. This was pretty easy since games go jntil 1am in the morning. So we found a mutually enthusiastic compromise in which I still played but play during times that she is happy with
It's different. As you get comfortable with the program and learn to POJA, you'll find alternatives that make you both happy. As an example, I used to play indoor soccer at times that my wife didn't like and it took away family and UA time. We found a solution in which worked for both of us. The conflict was. Not the activity but the time. This was pretty easy since games go jntil 1am in the morning. So we found a mutually enthusiastic compromise in which I still played but play during times that she is happy with
Its kind of a chicken before the egg thing you know? You can't become each other's favorite person to spend time with until you actually do spend time with each other. On the other hand, you likely have not been pleasant to be around in the past and therefore could struggle to spend time with each other now. My wife and I are compatible doing certain things, but not others. We filled out a workbook and have a lot of activities we can do together but we need to give it a shot. I LOVE golf, she loves running, but they don't intersect in terms of good RC. I was thinking about seeing is she would be willing to ride in the golf cart with me for about two hours followed by drinks and appetizers on the 19th hole! POJA is great because it forces you to think outside the box. What I do know is for the time being I would never leave for an entire round of golf with the fellas, just like she would never leave for a three hour run.
FWW and I went car shopping yesterday, with zero intention of buying a vehicle. Check them out, test drive them. Chit chat in transit.
Some times, you have to get creative.
FWW and I went car shopping yesterday, with zero intention of buying a vehicle. Check them out, test drive them. Chit chat in transit.
Some times, you have to get creative.
My H sells cars, and he and I both dislike people who do this. If you want to look, fine, have at it. But leave the salesguy out of it, leave him free to help people actually in the market. You and your W stole valuable time from someone who is at least supporting him/herself, most likely a spouse and children, too. I can't even begin to tell you how many "ups" my H has missed by being busied by people who do this--fake out the salesperson, pretend to be interested and serious, but really out joyriding.
They don't get paid to take joyriders on test drives. Not one cent.
FWW and I went car shopping yesterday, with zero intention of buying a vehicle. Check them out, test drive them. Chit chat in transit.
Some times, you have to get creative.
My H sells cars, and he and I both dislike people who do this. If you want to look, fine, have at it. But leave the salesguy out of it, leave him free to help people actually in the market. You and your W stole valuable time from someone who is at least supporting him/herself, most likely a spouse and children, too. I can't even begin to tell you how many "ups" my H has missed by being busied by people who do this--fake out the salesperson, pretend to be interested and serious, but really out joyriding.
They don't get paid to take joyriders on test drives. Not one cent.
These are what you call the perils of a chosen career.
Now, while you huff and puff, what you aren't considering is this; up until I hit this last leg of schooling I upgraded my vehicle every other year, and have bought a few "run ugly" rigs for other uses.
Those salesman who I "stole valuable time" from, were rewarded with direct referrals when friends or family were in the market. Direct by-name and by-lot referrals. Often times, I am standing next to the friend or family member, and take them to the salesman personally. I have also followed
good salesmen when they change dealerships.
Just my ignorant opinion, but a good salesman sells himself, and not the product, and he is rewarded with customer loyalty.
Perils of a chosen career, eh?
Yep, putting up with timewasters on a "date night", that's definitely a peril. How about you be ethical, and plan your dates in a way that brings happiness to you AND does not harm others?
Did you tell the salesman you were ZERO interested in buying anything?
My h said you were "typical" and changing your story.
Did you tell the salesman you were ZERO interested in buying anything?
My h said you were "typical" and changing your story.
Perils of a chosen career, eh?
Yep, putting up with timewasters on a "date night", that's definitely a peril. How about you be ethical, and plan your dates in a way that brings happiness to you AND does not harm others?
I'm glad that I could facilitate some conversation between you and your H.
Beyond that, I don't really care about either of your opinions or judgements.
Have a good night.
Timewaster. I do care. *Edit*
What is wrong with you two? Bickermans I say! I don't even remember what I asked about.
What is wrong with you two? Bickermans I say! I don't even remember what I asked about.
How's your week going so far Hill?
Let's get back on topic, please!
What is wrong with you two? Bickermans I say! I don't even remember what I asked about.
How's your week going so far Hill?
My week is fantastic, and yours? My wife and I just got done sipping tea outside in our backyard together while the kids watched a show. We are putting them to bed and then gonna read a part of my thread between HHH and CWMI because I told her they were bickering and she laughed out loud!
We stayed up till 1am together last night so we are pretty tired, but that was a good 5 hours which is a big time number. Thanks for changing the subject and taking this thread back from the hijackers!
I'm sure she believes it. I cannot deny being hard-headed.
Looks like a lot of my posts were moderated. Sorry, hill and grace.
I would simply like to discourage test driving cars that you have zero intention of buying, because of the effect on the salesperson's wallet, family, and time maintenance. Drive five hundred cars if you're buying one, but it is not nice to waste people's time when they are trying to support their families.
My week is fantastic, and yours? My wife and I just got done sipping tea outside in our backyard together while the kids watched a show. We are putting them to bed and then gonna read a part of my thread between HHH and CWMI because I told her they were bickering and she laughed out loud!
We stayed up till 1am together last night so we are pretty tired, but that was a good 5 hours which is a big time number. Thanks for changing the subject and taking this thread back from the hijackers!
DH is about an hour and a half away, so I'm driving down to spend tonight with him in the hotel. We need the time since we managed about 4 hours of UA time last week (and it was obvious!). We've had two major fights the past two weekends, and that's not like us. Even pre-MB we didn't fight. I've had a lot going on and if things don't get better, I think I need to call the doc for different meds.
Glad things are getting better with y'all, it's good to hear!
Looks like a lot of my posts were moderated. Sorry, hill and grace.
I would simply like to discourage test driving cars that you have zero intention of buying, because of the effect on the salesperson's wallet, family, and time maintenance. Drive five hundred cars if you're buying one, but it is not nice to waste people's time when they are trying to support their families.
I can see the subject is a sensitive one for you, so I know where you are coming from, can't say I agree however. Are you in favor of legislation that requires potential car buyers to make a statement as to their intentions prior to taking test drives at car dealers? Should we also do that at the mall when you try on a dress? Perhaps we shouldn't date unless the intention of the date is to get married? Maybe we should ban window shopping all together. All waste people's time, but that is the beauty of the free market! I'm sure your husband hates dealing with joy riders and tire kickers all day, particularly in today's economy so again I get it, but the joy rider got to experience a ride in a car that likely is newer and cooler than what they have now. That planted the seed at the feeling of getting a new car which few would argue isn't exciting. That seed COULD lead to a return visit and a potential purchase of HHH down the road. HHH comes home with new car, picks up wifey, takes her on a hot date, leading to wild passionate SF for a week making massive LB deposits. CWMI's husband comes home with a fat commission six months down the road from a seemingly time wasting exercise, takes his wife out for a nice weekend get away leading to wild passionate SF for a week making massive LB deposits. Why? It all started because of a couple of joy riders on a Sunday Afternoon.
My week is fantastic, and yours? My wife and I just got done sipping tea outside in our backyard together while the kids watched a show. We are putting them to bed and then gonna read a part of my thread between HHH and CWMI because I told her they were bickering and she laughed out loud!
We stayed up till 1am together last night so we are pretty tired, but that was a good 5 hours which is a big time number. Thanks for changing the subject and taking this thread back from the hijackers!
DH is about an hour and a half away, so I'm driving down to spend tonight with him in the hotel. We need the time since we managed about 4 hours of UA time last week (and it was obvious!). We've had two major fights the past two weekends, and that's not like us. Even pre-MB we didn't fight. I've had a lot going on and if things don't get better, I think I need to call the doc for different meds.
Glad things are getting better with y'all, it's good to hear!
Wow, great story, UA is at the core of this whole thing isn't it? Not sure about you, but hotel's are kind of an aphrodisiac in my mind, hopefully you guys have some fun! I applaud you for your efforts!
Where H is at now, joyriding is non-existent. They simply don't let you joyride in a $280,000 car.
I thought the intention of dating WAS to get married? Dating is a job interview for marriage. If you're not looking for a permanent relationship, then like I said with the test-driving: be up front about that, so if the person you are dating wants to get married someday (or the salesman wants to sell a car), they have the choice to move on to someone else who is interested in marriage (or a car).
Wow, great story, UA is at the core of this whole thing isn't it? Not sure about you, but hotel's are kind of an aphrodisiac in my mind, hopefully you guys have some fun! I applaud you for your efforts!
Yes, UA is so important. We spend a lot of time together Friday - Sunday, but last week we just missed the mark on UA time. One of my biggest frustrations with him being on the road is just not getting to spend the time together I'd like to.
Hotels are more home to DH than home is, so our nights in hotels are usually spent talking too late.
Wow, great story, UA is at the core of this whole thing isn't it? Not sure about you, but hotel's are kind of an aphrodisiac in my mind, hopefully you guys have some fun! I applaud you for your efforts!
Yes, UA is so important. We spend a lot of time together Friday - Sunday, but last week we just missed the mark on UA time. One of my biggest frustrations with him being on the road is just not getting to spend the time together I'd like to.
Hotels are more home to DH than home is, so our nights in hotels are usually spent talking too late.
Yep my wife and I notice it as well. For me I get irritable if there is no SF. My wife get irritable if FS and Admiration are not there. These EN's are hard to be met if UA time is not consistent enough. What we found in the past is that our social calendar was full of time with friends rather than with each other. Part of this was no doubt a form of protection for both of us as for the time we were with our friends we could at least "pretend" everything was perfectly fine. Now that we are trying to spend that time with each other rather than with friends things have improved quite a bit.
Date night tonight. Very excited about that. Gross, overcast drizzly weather, not excited about that. New babysitter tonight, very excited about that as well!
Stayed home this morning rather than leaving for work right away so that wifey could go spend an hour working out in the garage. I hope she enjoyed that.
I can honestly say I haven't been writing down a while lot of LBs in my iphone over the past week. We had one moment a couple days ago that was a bit rough, but we recovered quickly and had a great night. Wifey is getting her booty kicked in Scrabble of late which is nice for me!
Hill ... All I can say is that I am really IMPRESSED by you and your wifes progress! Looking back over your thread .. you have come a long ways since you started here. I can feel by the context oif your posts that a good majority of the tensions you had previously and insecurities you had have diminished a great deal and that you and your wife are falling back in love like the way its meant to be! Not only that .. but your posting to others threads now ... thats HUGE! Infact i think you have posted to more threads other than your own than I have! (your thread kinda resonated with me from the start and i related to your situation very well .. and so it brought me courage to post on here again, hoping I could be of some help to you.
Keep up the great work, you and your wife and doing fantastic so far!
Hill ... All I can say is that I am really IMPRESSED by you and your wifes progress! Looking back over your thread .. you have come a long ways since you started here. I can feel by the context oif your posts that a good majority of the tensions you had previously and insecurities you had have diminished a great deal and that you and your wife are falling back in love like the way its meant to be! Not only that .. but your posting to others threads now ... thats HUGE! Infact i think you have posted to more threads other than your own than I have! (your thread kinda resonated with me from the start and i related to your situation very well .. and so it brought me courage to post on here again, hoping I could be of some help to you.
Keep up the great work, you and your wife and doing fantastic so far!
Thanks for the complement, I give all the credit to Maca Root! JK. My wife actually said she may start taking it as well, so we'll see. We are having a great time getting to know each other again and it really has happened so fast to be honest. A lot of it has to do with truly knowing what my wife's ENs are, embracing them as important to her, and then making sure I meet them. The other part of it is being selfish with UA time. It just has to happened, no two ways about it. I like to post on other forums. The more I teach, the better I will become myself.
Thanks for the complement, I give all the credit to Maca Root! JK.
LOL ... good one! ... Maca root is great tho! Unfortunately I have ran out ... and currently my finances are not allowing me to get anymore
its like 40$ for a months supply for one of us. As soon as my wife gets back to work (shes currently unemployed) I will be stocking up again!
Being able to give MB advice also helps us reflect on ourselves! I am currently trying to help my step sister and her BF with MB .. but I am struggling. They hop on the wagon for a while ... then drift off again. They have no kids .. and her BF works FT and she sits at home and does nothing while complaining they dont spend enough time together. He wants her to get a job .. but she doesnt want to work. THey hav only been togheter for 1.5 years and they already live together. She texts guys all day while he is away and says its becasue (again an excuse) that she needs the attention! I hit my head agasint the wall listening to it ... My suggestion .. over and over again ... is for her to get a job since they have no kids .. and he complains she doesnt clean the house or do anyhting all day while hes gone .. He loves her .. but if he leaves her she has no where to go. (prolly want to move into our home if that happens) shes a freeloader and i wana slap her for it sometimes becasue she has no ambition and is dirving the guy (who is a really good friend of mine) into major debt becasue she has a HUGE need to shop but doesnt want to contribute to the finances.
Sorry for the long post.. I just see things alot clearer now than i did before my wife and i had all our struggles. Now that we are somewhat struggle free and are in love again .. it sux to see so many ppl around us not following MB or taking our advice when they ask for it or with the MB filter over our eyes ... to see how broken alot of relationships really are around us.
GAh! ... At least you two are "getting it" and thats awesome. I wish more ppl around me that I knew .. would get it too .. we explain it .. we live it .. many are jealous of what I have with my family and wife now .. but dont want to do what it takes to have it. Its sad ... especially my inlaws and dad and step mom. Lately .. everyone has been demainding our attention and making fun of us for needing and "enthusiastic agreement" to do anyhting .. and they wonder why we dont communicate very much with them anymore.
Any how again .. sorry to rant about my family/friends on your thread. I wish I could help fix more ppl around me IRL.
Thanks for the complement, I give all the credit to Maca Root! JK.
LOL ... good one! ... Maca root is great tho! Unfortunately I have ran out ... and currently my finances are not allowing me to get anymore
its like 40$ for a months supply for one of us. As soon as my wife gets back to work (shes currently unemployed) I will be stocking up again!
Being able to give MB advice also helps us reflect on ourselves! I am currently trying to help my step sister and her BF with MB .. but I am struggling. They hop on the wagon for a while ... then drift off again. They have no kids .. and her BF works FT and she sits at home and does nothing while complaining they dont spend enough time together. He wants her to get a job .. but she doesnt want to work. THey hav only been togheter for 1.5 years and they already live together. She texts guys all day while he is away and says its becasue (again an excuse) that she needs the attention! I hit my head agasint the wall listening to it ... My suggestion .. over and over again ... is for her to get a job since they have no kids .. and he complains she doesnt clean the house or do anyhting all day while hes gone .. He loves her .. but if he leaves her she has no where to go. (prolly want to move into our home if that happens) shes a freeloader and i wana slap her for it sometimes becasue she has no ambition and is dirving the guy (who is a really good friend of mine) into major debt becasue she has a HUGE need to shop but doesnt want to contribute to the finances.
Sorry for the long post.. I just see things alot clearer now than i did before my wife and i had all our struggles. Now that we are somewhat struggle free and are in love again .. it sux to see so many ppl around us not following MB or taking our advice when they ask for it or with the MB filter over our eyes ... to see how broken alot of relationships really are around us.
GAh! ... At least you two are "getting it" and thats awesome. I wish more ppl around me that I knew .. would get it too .. we explain it .. we live it .. many are jealous of what I have with my family and wife now .. but dont want to do what it takes to have it. Its sad ... especially my inlaws and dad and step mom. Lately .. everyone has been demainding our attention and making fun of us for needing and "enthusiastic agreement" to do anyhting .. and they wonder why we dont communicate very much with them anymore.
Any how again .. sorry to rant about my family/friends on your thread. I wish I could help fix more ppl around me IRL.
You can lead a horse to water...................................
By the way I picked up Maca Root for $12.99 for a month's supply at Fresh & Easy. I read some hype about pure, not pure, blah, blah, blah. I feel great, that is all there is to it. Sorry to hear about the job situation, than can be stressful man.
Yeah ... exactly. I kinda stopped giving advice since they dont listen .. and most of my family is now in the /ignore list becasue they dont understand the importance of UA time ... etc .. So like you .. we have to be selfish about our time aswell.
12.99 .. wow ... im getting ripped off. I get mine from the health food store Alive. I gotta find another source.
As for the job situation. Well .. my job does well paying our expenses, just not alot left over for extra things. Thats ok though because my wife is happier than ever and able to spend more time with the kids and be more focused on UA time etc ... her job was VERY VERY VERY stressful .. and the loss of her job was a blessing in disguise. Sure it sux to be lacking the money ... but i think it pays for itself in the lack of stress. Shes going to start actively looking for work again come september when the kids go back to school.
EDIT spelling
I'll vouch that "not pure" can, depending on the brand mean "has a boatload of fiber which impedes SF". Just thought I'd echo the idea to use a reputable brand. My stomach hated the brand I bought.
I'll vouch that "not pure" can, depending on the brand mean "has a boatload of fiber which impedes SF". Just thought I'd echo the idea to use a reputable brand. My stomach hated the brand I bought.
Ok I'll take that into consideration, thank you.
Yeah ... exactly. I kinda stopped giving advice since they dont listen .. and most of my family is now in the /ignore list becasue they dont understand the importance of UA time ... etc .. So like you .. we have to be selfish about our time aswell.
12.99 .. wow ... im getting ripped off. I get mine from the health food store Alive. I gotta find another source.
As for the job situation. Well .. my job does well paying our expenses, just not alot left over for extra things. Thats ok though because my wife is happier than ever and able to spend more time with the kids and be more focused on UA time etc ... her job was VERY VERY VERY stressful .. and the loss of her job was a blessing in disguise. Sure it sux to be lacking the money ... but i think it pays for itself in the lack of stress. Shes going to start actively looking for work again come september when the kids go back to school.
EDIT spelling
You and your wife are happy? You have a fulfilling marriage? That is all that matters man. Fulfilling marriage is good for your kids. What a lucky guy, forget the rest of it.
Gosh things derail so fast. My wife and I had an argument tonight. We did not reconcile it at all. It involves birth control so it is touchy. Let's just say neither of us are excited about our options. We've both agreed to get a consult about it. She feels like it is all on her to get something done, and I feel the same. POJA did not happen to be honest, but we are working on it. There were no thoughtful requests tonight, just demands on both our parts. If you do this, then I'll do that, etc. Recipe for disaster. It was.
One thing to remember for you newbies or just anyone, when you make demands it typically makes the other spouse do the opposite. Let that be a lesson to you, even if it was Bill and Joyce Harley, you make demands, you'll NEVER come out ahead. The opposite will always happen. Your spouse will feel hurt and instead of feeling like negotiating, they'll run the other way.
I was advising someone today that just one LB can ruin a night. This is why you have to avoid them at all costs. Don't LB your spouse, ok?
Hill, how important is it? Why not pick up a box of condoms and call it a night?
Fwiw my ex got a vasectomy *after* I filed for divorce. So I guess he can reap all the benefits now, that's cool. I guess that's what State of Conflict does to folks.
I believe that I would table all discussion of BC until you see a doctor. Your wife is pretty entrenched into her thinking, and whomever she's gotten her information about current BC isn't doing y'all any favors.
I thought this consult was already set with her OB/GYN? It should be an easy appointment, no exam, and should get scheduled right away.
Maybe, just maybe, put off SF until you get the consult.
I agree on the tabling the conversation until you speak with a doctor. In the meantime, grab some condoms and spermicide. Yeah, they suck, but it's better than going without.
And next time you have a conversation in which you feel yourself getting mad and you realize that she is prob going to say some things to upset you, stop the conversation before it gets to that heated point and ask to discuss it later.
I agree on the tabling the conversation until you speak with a doctor. In the meantime, grab some condoms and spermicide. Yeah, they suck, but it's better than going without.
And next time you have a conversation in which you feel yourself getting mad and you realize that she is prob going to say some things to upset you, stop the conversation before it gets to that heated point and ask to discuss it later.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...........
I agree on the tabling the conversation until you speak with a doctor. In the meantime, grab some condoms and spermicide. Yeah, they suck, but it's better than going without.
And next time you have a conversation in which you feel yourself getting mad and you realize that she is prob going to say some things to upset you, stop the conversation before it gets to that heated point and ask to discuss it later.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...........
Take a proactive step.
WTF. This response... Hill.
Will, can. No should.
Will, can.
Now, tomorrow (in converse to the smarmy woulda, coulda - which focuses on what has passed).
Proactive step. Now.
I agree on the tabling the conversation until you speak with a doctor. In the meantime, grab some condoms and spermicide. Yeah, they suck, but it's better than going without.
And next time you have a conversation in which you feel yourself getting mad and you realize that she is prob going to say some things to upset you, stop the conversation before it gets to that heated point and ask to discuss it later.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda...........
Take a proactive step.
WTF. This response... Hill.
Will, can. No should.
Will, can.
Now, tomorrow (in converse to the smarmy woulda, coulda - which focuses on what has passed).
Proactive step. Now.
I am. What I meant by that comment is that I wished I had handled things better last night, thus the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" comment. I apologized first thing, 7am sharp. We are going to her folks for breakfast so that will be a nice little fun distraction for us both as we regroup. Just give us a couple hours and we'll be fine.
The night was great actually but I had noticed she didn't take her customary seat next to me on the couch, she instead sat in the recliner like the old days. We went outside for a bit and she let me have it. I didn't see it coming and was a bit off guard. Next time she sits away from me I'll likely know something is on her mind and I'll just ask her.
Hey Hill .. just topping your thread to ask how you been doing? Hows your wife doing? How was your week? Hows your kids doing through all this? Is the baby sleeping better at night yet? I see you been posting to several other threads and thats great becasue from what I have read of your posts to others .. has been very good! You are giving great advice to people!
MNG
Hey Hill .. just topping your thread to ask how you been doing? Hows your wife doing? How was your week? Hows your kids doing through all this? Is the baby sleeping better at night yet? I see you been posting to several other threads and thats great becasue from what I have read of your posts to others .. has been very good! You are giving great advice to people!
MNG
Wife and I are doing quite well and getting better each day. Baby is falling asleep in her crib and sleeping the entire night and this has changed things dramatically for us of late. Most of the time we are free and clear of all kids from about 730-800 pm each night. We spend that time together and have been having lots of fun, affection, conversation, and SF. This weekend is a camping trip with friends and family. I'm concerned about spending UA time together so I'm do what I can to fit in some walks or other activities with my wife.
Friends and family?
Guess the kids are safe while you and W go hike!
Friends and family?
Guess the kids are safe while you and W go hike!
Yes we should have some great options.
Hope the weekend is wonderful for both of you!
When the BC discussion comes off the table, I hope you both go into it fully medically informed, which alleviates fear. My perspective is different because Hubs and I were already "spayed and neutered" so to speak, before we got together. We've been able to medically compare our experiences, and he does agree that his was less invasive, and even with the complications he had during his procedure, his healing was much shorter than mine. He's suffered no long-term side effects, from what he has said and from what I've seen.
Second (and third) opinions are good things, and tabling it until LB's aren't a factor in the decision (as you all are teaching me wisely) opens the door for a true logical decision to be made about it.
Hope your weekend is full of swimming, good food, lots of time together and much laughter!
Hey Hilltopper .. just wondering how you are doing? Hope all is well over there where you are and that you and your wife and rebuilding your romantic relationship!
MrNiceGuy
Just got back from vacation with my family and a few other families. It was fun but tiresome. Wife and I have not been following the program nearly as much as we did before. I don't even know where she put the workbook. I've approached her a few times about being concerned but she seems disinterested. She keeps saying she doesn't want to talk about it. The LBs are few and far between, but the meeting of ENs are pretty much dead so I'm unhappy again. No SF in three and a half weeks. Affection is fairly infrequent. I could be better, but have tried to focus hard on her two most important ENs which are financial support and admiration. Have any of you Vets kind of drifted away from the MB Program and found yourselves in need of going back to the basics?
Just got back from vacation with my family and a few other families. It was fun but tiresome. Wife and I have not been following the program nearly as much as we did before. I don't even know where she put the workbook.
Find it.
I've approached her a few times about being concerned but she seems disinterested. She keeps saying she doesn't want to talk about it.
Stop approaching her to talk about it, and start doing it.
The LBs are few and far between, but the meeting of ENs are pretty much dead so I'm unhappy again.
Okay, so you've stopped punching holes in her lovebank, now it's time to fill it up. Neither of you are going to feel great with empty lovebanks ... it's called neglect.
I could be better, but have tried to focus hard on her two most important ENs which are financial support and admiration.
Neither of these are the 4 Intimate ENs -- SF, Affection, RC, Conversation.
FS is important to her, but it will not cause her to fall in love with you. Dr. Harley says that when the non-intimate ENs are at the top of a person's list, it is most likely because they are in withdrawal.
Start meeting the 4 Intimate ENs -- these should be what your UA time concentrates on.
Your admiration will probably be more affective, too, if you are meeting the 4 Intimate EN.
Is she still willing to have UA with you?
Have any of you Vets kind of drifted away from the MB Program and found yourselves in need of going back to the basics?
It happens. Don't let it discourage you. Just pick up the pieces, and start over.
The basics are for the Vets, too, btw. They're not just for beginners. You're creating a new way of life here, and any time you let it slide, old habits are bound to show through.
Hill .. I know how ya feel bud.. i had a similar holiday with the family and some friends over the last few weeks. I quickly discovered how much UA time I was missing out on becasue our children and friends were around us (camping) the entire time! As a joke i tried rocking our camper back and forth to see if my DD or DS would notice .... sure enough (as my wife and I giggled) i get the "whos rocking the camper!" then soon as I get back from holidays .. BAM my wifes period hits. So i get to put off on my need for SF until a later date! Holidays with friends makes UA time very hard to accomplish.
So in the mean time .. i just hold the fort .. keep doing my life long Plan A and smile and not pressure my wife. She knows my needs are going unmet and has actually appologized for our lack of UA and said she will make it up to me soon.
But as for the vets comment. My wife and I have to occasionally remind each other of the MB stuff to keep it fresh ... We will be rereading our books again once all my family that i loaned them out to return them back to us.
Just keep finding ways to meet the 4 intimate needs on a regular basis ... and grabbing as much UA time as you can in between meeting her needs for FC, DS, FS and whatever else is on her list.
Keep being the MB beacon in your family! SHe will shine through eventually again as things get back on track after you recover from the holidays you just came back from.
MrNiceGuy
What's your plan for today? How are you going to start over?
What's your plan for today? How are you going to start over?
I'm in the middle of a lawsuit with my business partner, buried in it now. Wife is with kids swimming with friends. We'll spend some time tonight together.
We'll spend some time tonight together.
This is good. When life is beating on you, you need a place to escape to. Escaping together is a great way to bond and take care of each other.
Plan your time together, and give yourself something to look forward to. How are you going to spend your evening?
Did you ever get on anti-depressants?
Did you ever get on anti-depressants?
No, I'm really not depressed anymore, things are infinitely better than 3 months ago. My wife however is fairly depressed quite a bit. I would love for her to get a prescription just to see how it makes her feel. That is a tough subject to approach though.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, progress on the BC front?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand, progress on the BC front?
Nope. She hates condoms. I am opposed to a vasectomy(no need to try and debate me ok?). She said BCP makes her feel weird. She wants me to go see doc to get a consult about a vasectomy, but he was out of town for two weeks, but I'm willing to go. She made an appointment to get some consulting herself but never went. So we just sit here not doing anything about it. I'm unhappy about having zero SF and I stopped asking because I get turned down.
The rest of our time spent ain't all that bad, but baby has been a pill of late probably due to teething. I pulled out the workbook and have spent 30 mins going over it today. She did ask me if we could go out Friday and get a babysitter so that is good.
Nope. She hates condoms. I am opposed to a vasectomy(no need to try and debate me ok?). She said BCP makes her feel weird. She wants me to go see doc to get a consult about a vasectomy, but he was out of town for two weeks, but I'm willing to go. She made an appointment to get some consulting herself but never went. So we just sit here not doing anything about it. I'm unhappy about having zero SF and I stopped asking because I get turned down.
I would bring this up once a week and try to talk to her about it. Share with her things you've learned, and ask her what she thinks. Ask her to make a new appointment with her doctor, but don't try to force her. Don't bring it up more than once a week.
Have the two of you read about Essure? A non-surgical sterilization option ...
Don't give up. There's an answer that will make both of you happy.
In the mean time, continue to fill her lovebank as much as she will let you. Glad to hear you found the workbook ... you can make it, Hilltopper.
I am new.. but yes... I second Prisca in the look up
ESSURE dot com
It is awesome and it isn't surgical, but works just as well.
Might be the solution you can both enthusiastically agree on :-)
I know as my H is the same with vasectomy and this was our find!
Have you thought about options like IUDs if she doesn't want to be sterilised?
I actually don't want my husband to get a vasectomy, he has had testicular pain in the past and from what I read the risk of having continual testicular pain after the op is relatively high compared to the minor side effects I get from the IUD.
Have y'all looked into natural family planning? I never tried it but lots of folks have had successful results. If you're interested we have a member here Telly who IIRC has taught classes about it, I can ask her to pop in over here.
Wife is aware.
I am new.. but yes... I second Prisca in the look up
ESSURE dot com
It is awesome and it isn't surgical, but works just as well.
Might be the solution you can both enthusiastically agree on :-)
I know as my H is the same with vasectomy and this was our find!
Have y'all looked into natural family planning? I never tried it but lots of folks have had successful results. If you're interested we have a member here Telly who IIRC has taught classes about it, I can ask her to pop in over here.
Sure I'd love to hear from Telly.
Back to the beginning with us. My wife said we can begin MB again once I go to a doctor's appointment for a vasectomy. We had a date tonight scheduled and she said, "we mine as well just not go then," after we had a disagreement and disrespected each other a bunch. It involved her describing everything as "disgusting" about the house. She complains several times a day about anything and everything and it wears on me when she does. Its just really hard to be around and no matter how clean something gets she'll [censored] about it anyways.
I can't control her and won't try so I just sent her a text that I was sorry for being disrespectful and then condescending about MB(I told her that I had warned her that we'd be at each other's throats if we didn't sit down and get back to MB principles.) She feels its my fault for not helping her clean out the garage enough. I volunteer weekend after weekend but we never get around to it because we are doing other things. We had a date planned tonight and I offered to pick up take out, drop the kids off and clean the garage with her instead, but she said no. She isn't asking me to get a V consult, she is demanding it. In fact she refuses to go to her own consult or have sex until I do. I've told her how I feel about them and politely emailed her the reasons why, but I feel she doesn't respect my feelings on the issue which is why she demands I go whether I want to or not. She just confirmed she is withholding sex and if it is a few months then "so be it."
Not good, wife just confirmed she won't get a consult at all and is withholding sex. I have two options, condoms or V's. She has about 10 options which I know is kind of unfair, but that is just medicine, I can't control it. So basically I have to get a V against my will in order to have a romantic relationship with my wife. What a great position to be in. Hopefully things will calm down a bit.
Not good, wife just confirmed she won't get a consult at all and is withholding sex. I have two options, condoms or V's. She has about 10 options which I know is kind of unfair, but that is just medicine, I can't control it. So basically I have to get a V against my will in order to have a romantic relationship with my wife. What a great position to be in. Hopefully things will calm down a bit.
I think that if she wanted to have sex with you, she would find ways of having sex that do not involve penetration.
I think that the issue is that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why she doesn't.
If you have a vasectomy you will be calling her bluff. If the root problem is that she does not want to have sex with you, then a vasectomy will reveal this.
She isn't asking me to get a V consult, she is demanding it
Yes, and she is WRONG. She knows it, too, which is probably why she hasn't been hanging around the board. You're probably not going to get anywhere on the BC issue until she becomes willing to negotiate with you, using the rules for negotiation.
I suggested to you both a while back that you use a temporary BC method until you were further along in the program and had more experience with negotiation. Did the two of you consider doing this and revisiting the issue again? Perhaps you should suggest that to her again.
You're going to need to stop warning her about getting back with MB -- this will be seen as you teaching her, which will be considered a DJ. Good job on apologizing.
You might put off talking about BC for a few weeks and concentrate on filling her lovebank -- conversation and affection.
I think that the issue is that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why she doesn't.
If you have a vasectomy you will be calling her bluff. If the root problem is that she does not want to have sex with you, then a vasectomy will reveal this.
I do not believe this will be true. She doesn't want sex because she is deathly afraid of becoming pregnant again.
She's trying to force her own way at the expense of Hilltopper. If he goes through with the vasectomy because of her demand, he will only resent her, causing MORE problems for them to overcome.
Not good, wife just confirmed she won't get a consult at all and is withholding sex. I have two options, condoms or V's. She has about 10 options which I know is kind of unfair, but that is just medicine, I can't control it. So basically I have to get a V against my will in order to have a romantic relationship with my wife. What a great position to be in. Hopefully things will calm down a bit.
She said at one point that she would've been willing to have had a tubal ... why is she unwilling to consider her own sterilization, especially since there is now non-surgical options that can be done in a doctor's office.
You can't reason with someone who is making demands until they are willing to stop demanding and start negotiating.
Yes, I think you definitely need to avoid talking about it for a few weeks and try to fill her lovebank.
Not good, wife just confirmed she won't get a consult at all and is withholding sex. I have two options, condoms or V's. She has about 10 options which I know is kind of unfair, but that is just medicine, I can't control it. So basically I have to get a V against my will in order to have a romantic relationship with my wife. What a great position to be in. Hopefully things will calm down a bit.
I think that if she wanted to have sex with you, she would find ways of having sex that do not involve penetration.
I think that the issue is that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why she doesn't.
If you have a vasectomy you will be calling her bluff. If the root problem is that she does not want to have sex with you, then a vasectomy will reveal this.
Well you could be wrong but I just asked her so we'll see what her answer is. I said to be honest with me and if she was not attracted to me what things could I do to change that. We'll see what she says. I have been feeling that general "disinterested" feeling like I had before coming to MB. I honestly think it is about having a child again since we are extremely stressed out with #3, particularly her.
I think that the issue is that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why she doesn't.
If you have a vasectomy you will be calling her bluff. If the root problem is that she does not want to have sex with you, then a vasectomy will reveal this.
I do not believe this will be true. She doesn't want sex because she is deathly afraid of becoming pregnant again.
She's trying to force her own way at the expense of Hilltopper. If he goes through with the vasectomy because of her demand, he will only resent her, causing MORE problems for them to overcome.
Yes I agree it is about an accidental pregnancy. There is still a lot of resent because I said I'd get a V after the third kid because a buddy of mine did. I didn't research it I just told her "sure" to keep her happy. She said she would have had a tubal during the c-section of our third child had she known that at the time. Bad situation and I wish it was avoided. I can't take it back though and she brings it up repeatedly.
By the way Prisca, my wife said verbatim, "I don't care what you tell Prisca, she is irrelevant to anything I care about." I share that not to hurt her, but just to give you perspective of my current battle.
Not good, wife just confirmed she won't get a consult at all and is withholding sex. I have two options, condoms or V's. She has about 10 options which I know is kind of unfair, but that is just medicine, I can't control it. So basically I have to get a V against my will in order to have a romantic relationship with my wife. What a great position to be in. Hopefully things will calm down a bit.
She said at one point that she would've been willing to have had a tubal ... why is she unwilling to consider her own sterilization, especially since there is now non-surgical options that can be done in a doctor's office.
You can't reason with someone who is making demands until they are willing to stop demanding and start negotiating.
Yes, I think you definitely need to avoid talking about it for a few weeks and try to fill her lovebank.
Yep I'll let it lie. I told her that from this moment I was gonna do my best to follow MB again, I didn't ask her to do the same. This is the only way I know how.
She said she would have had a tubal during the c-section of our third child had she known that at the time. Bad situation and I wish it was avoided. I can't take it back though and she brings it up repeatedly.
She is dwelling on the past.
You were once willing to consider a V. She was once willing to consider a tubal. Now, you don't want a V, and she refuses to consider her own sterilization.
She is just as guilty about changing her mind as you are.
The way to handle this is negotiate in the NOW. Throw out past agreements, they are no longer relevant. Today is what matters.
By the way Prisca, my wife said verbatim, "I don't care what you tell Prisca, she is irrelevant to anything I care about."
I'll take that as a compliment.
The reason she doesn't like me right now is because I refuse to coddle her.
The slap of a friend can be trusted to help you, but the kisses of an enemy are nothing but lies. Proverbs 27:6
You are doing nothing wrong by refusing to cave in to her demand, Hill, just in case you wondered ...
You are doing nothing wrong by refusing to cave in to her demand, Hill, just in case you wondered ...
Well I have questioned it because the pressure is intense. Glad to know I can stand my ground.
I just spent an hour via text apologizing and be honest with my wife. I slipped a few times and got disrespectful, but apologized again. She apologized ZERO. She rarely does and it is really hard to deal with. My wife is very resentful and holds on to things for long periods of time, this makes my eliminating LBs and filling needs so crucial. If I mess up it isn't a quick apology and we move on you know?
By the way Prisca, more rude things my wife wanted to pass on to you but I told her she can do it herself.
After all of this she still wants to go to dinner tonight so that is good but it historically has been really hard for us to converse when we've had it out.
We recovered quickly and dinner was really fun. All I can do is eliminate the LBs and do my best to meet her needs. That is the plan for now.
We recovered quickly and dinner was really fun. All I can do is eliminate the LBs and do my best to meet her needs. That is the plan for now.
And that's the perfect plan!
By the way Prisca, more rude things my wife wanted to pass on to you but I told her she can do it herself.
All this tells me is that she is angry and out of control. She's not getting her way at your expense, and she'll lash out at anybody who would tell her that that's a GOOD thing.
Grace, if you're reading, I've been there. I suggest you don't stay there. You are destroying your marriage.
By the way Prisca, more rude things my wife wanted to pass on to you but I told her she can do it herself.
All this tells me is that she is angry and out of control. She's not getting her way at your expense, and she'll lash out at anybody who would tell her that that's a GOOD thing.
Grace, if you're reading, I've been there. I suggest you don't stay there. You are destroying your marriage.
Baby is wearing both of us out, but especially her. She is grumpy most of the time and stressed. It's nothing I'm doing much of, its just life and I'm stressed too. I think it will improve when school comes back in, at least I hope so. I'm trying really hard not to disrespect her when she turns moody or grumpy. For some reason her grumpiness effects me a lot and I sometimes say negative things rather than comfort her.
It may be best to keep quiet when she is grumpy, rather than to risk saying something negative.
Keeping quiet = not a LB
Saying negative things = LB
Although, if you keep quiet you miss out on a BIG chance to make lovebank deposits. She's probably craving your comfort.
Although, if you keep quiet you miss out on a BIG chance to make lovebank deposits. She's probably craving your comfort.
I'm sure she is craving my comfort and I do my best to give it to her. If she was grumpy a couple times a week I don't think it would bother me. It is quite literally either all day until the kids go down or at least a few hours each day. I feel suffocated about it. Its just depressing to be around the doom and gloom so much and makes it hard to do this MB thing because it is always there.
Hill, it's easy to blame your attitude on others, but even easier to get in the habit of checking your attitude. Let it be contagious. Like the expression, be the thermostat, not the thermometer. Your kids need that the most when your W is in the dumps. You talk about how it suffocates you, but you're an adult, fully mature and capable of self-soothing. Is that fair to them, to stew them in both you and your wife dumping negativity?
What do you think about, the next time W's grumpy, take the kids out and kick a soccer ball. Notice your mood, the kids' moods, her mood. What do you predict would happen?
What do you think about, the next time W's grumpy, take the kids out and kick a soccer ball. Notice your mood, the kids' moods, her mood. What do you predict would happen?
Fair enough, but my mood is not dependent on my wife being grumpy at all. I frequently "remove" the stress which is the kids and I'm sure it helps. My concern is not related to my own attitude, it is related to her mood being an obstacle to having a great romantic relationship. The suffocation I mention is related to the grumpiness impeding or slowing down the speed at which we rebuild love in our marriage. Maybe there is nothing I can do but meet needs and avoid LBs to "do my part" you know? Time will pass, the kids get older(especially baby) and become less needy. It will come around, in the mean time I guess I was bitching I'll avoid that in the future and stick with action steps to make things better, cool?
Tough situation. My wife and I get along and all, but aside from playing footsies on the couch, there is no romantic relationship and at the present time I'm unable to create that. She is not interested in SF because she is afraid of getting pregnant. We are at a standstill because I don't want a vasectomy and she doesn't like condoms. She said it is up to her and she'll "figure it out" but hasn't done anything in terms of appointments, etc, and I can't make her. The longer we go without SF, the more I get insecure again. I hate this but I don't know what to do. Bringing up the subject makes her feel pressured and typically leads to a fight. Any suggestions?
Can you at least find non intercourse ways to be close physically? I know that contraception choices suck, that there is just no option that does not have side effects and its about finding the one you can both tolerate most easily.
We keep returning to the IUD, deciding its the lesser of two evils each time we decide to try something else so I'm now on my third one of those.
Tough situation. My wife and I get along and all, but aside from playing footsies on the couch, there is no romantic relationship and at the present time I'm unable to create that. She is not interested in SF because she is afraid of getting pregnant. We are at a standstill because I don't want a vasectomy and she doesn't like condoms. She said it is up to her and she'll "figure it out" but hasn't done anything in terms of appointments, etc, and I can't make her. The longer we go without SF, the more I get insecure again. I hate this but I don't know what to do. Bringing up the subject makes her feel pressured and typically leads to a fight. Any suggestions?
I would suggest you go through the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation together, once a week, on this subject. See if you can agree on a day and a timeframe (maybe just an hour), and work through the guidelines. Stay on guideline one until you both agree that it is fulfilled to your satisfaction, move to guideline two and do what that says and stay there until you both agree the other understands your position, then move to guideline three, etc.
During this time, you get the chance to explain how important SF is to you, in a respectful and nondemanding way. Of course if she feels you become disrespectful or demanding, she gets the safety of knowing she can terminate the discussion.
This is a really bad place to be stuck. Don't nag, but once a week respectfully express your dissatisfaction with the situation. The "do nothing" part of the policy of joint agreement is designed to motivate the two of you to find a solution that makes you both happy; it is not designed to keep you at "do nothing" forever if "do nothing" makes one or both of you unhappy.
By the way: bringing up the past and discussing who is to blame is disrespectful, and violates guideline one.
I'm sure she is craving my comfort and I do my best to give it to her. If she was grumpy a couple times a week I don't think it would bother me. It is quite literally either all day until the kids go down or at least a few hours each day. I feel suffocated about it. Its just depressing to be around the doom and gloom so much and makes it hard to do this MB thing because it is always there.
Try this some time when she's grumpy: Say to her, "You look like you're having a stressful day. Let's see if this helps." Then start dancing. Make it as silly and kooky a dance as possible. If the kids are around, invite them to join in. But don't tell them it's because Mommy is grumpy. Instead, just say that you're dancing because dancing always cheers you up. Hopefully, this will prompt laughter or at least a smile from your wife. Do this a couple of times. On other occasions when she's grumpy, you can just offer, "Do you need me to dance for you? Because I'll do it. Don't think I won't!"
It's not a solution to the grumps, but a tactic for lightening the mood in the house.
the more I get insecure again.
Whatever happens ... do not let feelings dictate your actions. Rule number one is still "calm down." Trust me. Don't ever violate this rule.
How does Grace feel that you are doing on love busters?
Tough situation. My wife and I get along and all, but aside from playing footsies on the couch, there is no romantic relationship and at the present time I'm unable to create that. She is not interested in SF because she is afraid of getting pregnant. We are at a standstill because I don't want a vasectomy and she doesn't like condoms. She said it is up to her and she'll "figure it out" but hasn't done anything in terms of appointments, etc, and I can't make her. The longer we go without SF, the more I get insecure again. I hate this but I don't know what to do. Bringing up the subject makes her feel pressured and typically leads to a fight. Any suggestions?
The only way to get pregnant is to have PIV sex. But there are so many other ways to have sex that do not involve putting the P in the V. It's likely that not all of those ways are your or your wife's cup of tea. But there have to be some non-PIV sex acts that you both enjoy, right?
I don't think helping Hilltopper and his wife with guideline three of negotiation is likely to be very helpful until they both feel that they've gotten through guidelines one and two. Brainstorming is fairly easy, as is research. Making the discussion safe and understanding each other's point of view are harder, and are prerequisites before the brainstorming will be much use.
Can you at least find non intercourse ways to be close physically? I know that contraception choices suck, that there is just no option that does not have side effects and its about finding the one you can both tolerate most easily.
We keep returning to the IUD, deciding its the lesser of two evils each time we decide to try something else so I'm now on my third one of those.
I've asked about "other" things but she isn't into it. She was never not into it before. I think she wasn't to avoid anything that could possibly put her in the mood for sex.
I don't think helping Hilltopper and his wife with guideline three of negotiation is likely to be very helpful until they both feel that they've gotten through guidelines one and two. Brainstorming is fairly easy, as is research. Making the discussion safe and understanding each other's point of view are harder, and are prerequisites before the brainstorming will be much use.
I totally understand her point of view. Baby has changed our lives and she is totally stressed. Having another child is NOT an option. That dominates her thinking as it pertains to SF. I have to do something, because at this pace nothing is gonna happen. Me going without my #1 EN isn't good for our marriage, and she would agree with this.
If retaining the ability to have more kids is so important to you, even though your wife has stated that she is 100% opposed to having more kids, then I think you need to assess how committed you are to this marriage. Not meant in an accusatory way. Merely stating the facts as they appear to me from your post.
You could have more sex next week if you got a vasectomy tomorrow. But you refuse. To me, that says you value the possibility of more kids higher than you value sex. Without sex, you realize that your marriage is at risk of failing. So by refusing to get a V, you are implicitly valuing the possibility of future kids higher than you value your marriage.
By refusing to get a V, you are implicitly saying to your wife "I am not sure I am going to remain married to you, so I want to keep my options open. I might meet a woman who wants more kids. I don't want her to reject me because I got a V." I can easily understand why your wife is rarely in the mood to have sex with you if she imagines you are thinking what I just wrote.
Look, the years when you have small kids are often tough on a couple's sex life. You brought another baby into your life just when the older kids are becoming less needy and you might have had time for more UA / each other. Your choice. Now you need to deal with the consequences. When you add the "I will not get a V", it makes it that much harder.
Hold, Hilltopper doesn't need to defend why he feels like he doesn't want a vasectomy.
Holding,
I don't understand that mentality - there are side effects and other reasons not to have a V. The wife could get an IUD put in and have sex the same day. Easy Peasy, no pain, no hormones.
She's not exercising her options for BC either. He's got one option that is a surgical (albeit minor) procedure when women have at least 15 options that are non surgical that she's outright refusing.
Steph
I've asked about "other" things but she isn't into it. She was never not into it before. I think she wasn't to avoid anything that could possibly put her in the mood for sex.
That's the kind of thing that needs to get talked about extensively in negotiation. You find out her perspective, she founds out your perspective, you gain information so that you can brainstorm solutions that take both perspectives into account.
I don't think helping Hilltopper and his wife with guideline three of negotiation is likely to be very helpful until they both feel that they've gotten through guidelines one and two. Brainstorming is fairly easy, as is research. Making the discussion safe and understanding each other's point of view are harder, and are prerequisites before the brainstorming will be much use.
QFT
The only way to get through this with both Hilltopper and Grace happy is to use the Four Guidelines for Negotiation. Nothing else will work.
Guilting Hilltopper into a vasectomy he doesn't want is not going to do anybody any good.
I don't think helping Hilltopper and his wife with guideline three of negotiation is likely to be very helpful until they both feel that they've gotten through guidelines one and two. Brainstorming is fairly easy, as is research. Making the discussion safe and understanding each other's point of view are harder, and are prerequisites before the brainstorming will be much use.
QFT
The only way to get through this with both Hilltopper and Grace happy is to use the Four Guidelines for Negotiation. Nothing else will work.
Guilting Hilltopper into a vasectomy he doesn't want is not going to do anybody any good.
Thanks for the assist here. The possibility of having more children with another woman in the future has nothing to do with my feelings on having a vasectomy. It never crossed my mind. I'll reread Four Guidelines and start on #1 with wife.
I understand that he should not do anything if he is not enthusiastic. Just pointing out how this may come across to his wife, so he can explore her feelings.
They need to explore the other methods of birth control besides condoms or vasectomy. They need to explore other aspects of sex besides PIV intercourse. He needs to create a safe environment to discuss these things so she can share her truth.
I wrote what I would be thinking if I were his wife. I doubt she would admit to thinking those thoughts if she were thinking them. As he tries to create a safe environment for her, he needs to take into account that she may have fears he cannot imagine.
My wife said we could have sex a few days ago. I asked her yesterday if we could and she said, "not unless you get a V." She then later that evening mocked me in front of some friends that were over saying, "Well he would get a lot more sex if he got a V." Either my wife has a low libido, doesn't want to have sex with me, or is fulfilling that need elsewhere. She has shown to be perfectly fine with no SF in her life, at least with me. The rest of our marriage is pretty good to be honest, but I'm extremely unhappy with my #1 need going unmet. My approaches on even discussing the subject are met with sarcasm and put-offs, and she brings up me not getting a V over and over again. I'm angry and bitter and am avoiding her because I am afraid I'll say something wrong. I wish she'd come here, but she won't do that either.
I understand that he should not do anything if he is not enthusiastic. Just pointing out how this may come across to his wife, so he can explore her feelings.
They need to explore the other methods of birth control besides condoms or vasectomy. They need to explore other aspects of sex besides PIV intercourse. He needs to create a safe environment to discuss these things so she can share her truth.
I wrote what I would be thinking if I were his wife. I doubt she would admit to thinking those thoughts if she were thinking them. As he tries to create a safe environment for her, he needs to take into account that she may have fears he cannot imagine.
My wife has pushed off all forms of intimacy, including non-PIV things. The resent is building by the day in me and I feel it little by little overwhelming my thoughts. Something very odd also happened that is unanswered. She had a phone appointment about a month or two ago with her doctor about BC. She never told me what they discussed. I've asked her five times since then and she avoids answering the question. She said, "you don't have to get a V," but then she keeps bringing it up.
Wife just yelled at me for being dishonest. She asked me multiple times last night and this morning if I was mad at her to which I replied "no". So I sent her an email to approach the subject of birth control, because face to face hasn't worked. I let her know some of the things that bothered me regarding the subject. She just read and and let me have it. She called me the biggest liar in the world. Being honest all the time with my wife causes there to be fights, so I've learned over the years to just gut it out which I know is wrong. So the part that sucks is that something like this will cause conflict for at least a week or two. She doesn't get over things and will resent me a ton. It has already started and no matter what I say or how many times I apologize she'll just keep resenting me indefinitely.
My wife said we could have sex a few days ago. I asked her yesterday if we could and she said, "not unless you get a V." She then later that evening mocked me in front of some friends that were over saying, "Well he would get a lot more sex if he got a V." Either my wife has a low libido, doesn't want to have sex with me, or is fulfilling that need elsewhere. She has shown to be perfectly fine with no SF in her life, at least with me. The rest of our marriage is pretty good to be honest, but I'm extremely unhappy with my #1 need going unmet. My approaches on even discussing the subject are met with sarcasm and put-offs, and she brings up me not getting a V over and over again. I'm angry and bitter and am avoiding her because I am afraid I'll say something wrong. I wish she'd come here, but she won't do that either.
I would ask her how long she expects you to tolerate this situation? Does she imagine you will be there forever even after you fall out of love because she refuses to meet your needs? Most spouses don't last long under those conditions before they decide to move on.
Somehow I suspect the situation would be the same even if you did get a V. The reason behind that stems frm the fact that there are many other ways to have sex besides the big "I." Is she willing to do other things with you?
My wife said we could have sex a few days ago. I asked her yesterday if we could and she said, "not unless you get a V." She then later that evening mocked me in front of some friends that were over saying, "Well he would get a lot more sex if he got a V." Either my wife has a low libido, doesn't want to have sex with me, or is fulfilling that need elsewhere. She has shown to be perfectly fine with no SF in her life, at least with me. The rest of our marriage is pretty good to be honest, but I'm extremely unhappy with my #1 need going unmet. My approaches on even discussing the subject are met with sarcasm and put-offs, and she brings up me not getting a V over and over again. I'm angry and bitter and am avoiding her because I am afraid I'll say something wrong. I wish she'd come here, but she won't do that either.
I would ask her how long she expects you to tolerate this situation? Does she imagine you will be there forever even after you fall out of love because she refuses to meet your needs? Most spouses don't last long under those conditions before they decide to move on.
Somehow I suspect the situation would be the same even if you did get a V. The reason behind that stems frm the fact that there are many other ways to have sex besides the big "I." Is she willing to do other things with you?
She won't do anything with me. Her reason for not doing other things is that it is unfair to her. We had a heated discussion just now and she said she'd go get an appointment but that it is all about accidental pregnancies. She seemed to relay that the fact that "it is all on her" is unfair in her eyes. She is still pissed I won't go get a consult against my will. She repeatedly said she doesn't respect me nor my need for SF. She thinks that the marriage is more important and that I should just wait it out. She said it always comes down to sex with me. I came to MB because she shut me out sexually. By the words she just said there is no way she is gonna come back on these forums and she brought up every single thing I did that hurt her in the past. This woman doesn't forget or move past ANYTHING. This is why it will continue to escalate unless I eliminate LBs entirely. Each time I do, she puts another mark on the chalk board in permanent ink. We've been getting along pretty well over the past couple of months, but to answer your question the "situation" in my mind is indefinite unless I spoke up. Hey at least she is getting an appointment.
So I sent my wife the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiations. I sent it to her respectfully and only if "she was open to it." I let her know from my perspective her need for honesty and my need for SF are the same. There is no such thing as one being more valuable or important than the other. My wife doesn't respect my need for sex at the present time. I let her know I'd be honest with her at all times even if I am scared at getting yelled at, so we'll see how it goes. Historically when we don't agree on something I just "give in" to what she wants and she tends to "avoid" the problem. This is not good and leads us to the same place we are now every time.
She won't do anything with me. Her reason for not doing other things is that it is unfair to her.
Then you need to make it fair for her and please her too. SF is supposed to be the fulfilling of BOTH your needs, not just one. If she gets no enjoyment, then it is very unlikely she will want to do that.
She repeatedly said she doesn't respect me nor my need for SF. She thinks that the marriage is more important and that I should just wait it out.
If the marriage is important to her, then she would be doing to enhance the marriage, rather than doing things that destroy it. She is detroying her marriage so her words don't match her actions. If she feels the marriage really is important, then why isn't she doing the things to maintain it, like meeting her husbands basic emotional needs? Neglecting her husband sure does not demonstrate that she places any importance on her marriage at all.
Rather, it sounds like she wants "unconditional love," which is harmful to marriages. She wants to contribute nothing but expects to receive all the benefits of a married woman. She is destroying your marriage with that approach.
So I would ask her how long she expects to remain married under those conditions? It wont' last forever.
You really need to keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved. This is too important to your marriage. Have you considered getting marriage coaching from one of Dr Harley's kids?
She won't do anything with me. Her reason for not doing other things is that it is unfair to her.
Then you need to make it fair for her and please her too. SF is supposed to be the fulfilling of BOTH your needs, not just one. If she gets no enjoyment, then it is very unlikely she will want to do that.
She repeatedly said she doesn't respect me nor my need for SF. She thinks that the marriage is more important and that I should just wait it out.
If the marriage is important to her, then she would be doing to enhance the marriage, rather than doing things that destroy it. She is detroying her marriage so her words don't match her actions. If she feels the marriage really is important, then why isn't she doing the things to maintain it, like meeting her husbands basic emotional needs? Neglecting her husband sure does not demonstrate that she places any importance on her marriage at all.
Rather, it sounds like she wants "unconditional love," which is harmful to marriages. She wants to contribute nothing but expects to receive all the benefits of a married woman. She is destroying your marriage with that approach.
So I would ask her how long she expects to remain married under those conditions? It wont' last forever.
You really need to keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved. This is too important to your marriage. Have you considered getting marriage coaching from one of Dr Harley's kids?
I let her know that I didn't want a marriage where SF is off the table. She must have taken it as me saying I didn't want to be married to her because she said, "I don't even want to be married to you." She followed it up with a text saying that she won't be in a marriage where there is dishonesty. Its not like I am a liar, my issue of dishonesty revolves around me not telling her when something is bothering her. This drives her crazy and I have avoided doing this for months until just now. Her language again suggests that she feels her need for honesty is more important than my need for SF. There is no other way to interpret it.
I don't know why she won't participate in other sexual activity with me. We used to do this all the time, but after the kids came it died out.
I'm not perfect, nor innocent in this marriage. I have done my fair share to cause her pain. I don't know how important the marriage is to her, in fact I've often thought it was more important to me and that she is frequently indifferent about it.
I had scheduled time with Steve, but we improved so much in such a short period of time we never followed through with it.
1. be honest with her then. And keep the SF on the front burner until it is solved
2. get another appointment with Steve and get back on track
Have you thought about doing the online program so you could have more hands on guidance? You would be assigned a coach who works with you every week and guides your program. You would also have daily access to Dr Harley over on the private forum.
my issue of dishonesty revolves around me not telling her when something is bothering her. This drives her crazy and I have avoided doing this for months until just now
That would drive me crazy too.
How do you feel about the subject of resent? My wife freely admits that she is resentful of me. She is resentful of her mom, her dad, my mom, and both of my sisters. How can I work on our marriage if she never gets over anything? In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
How do you feel about the subject of resent? My wife freely admits that she is resentful of me. She is resentful of her mom, her dad, my mom, and both of my sisters. How can I work on our marriage if she never gets over anything? In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
The resentment on both sides will fade if you restore the love in your marriage. That is where I would focus. Instead of focusing on resentment and fights, etc, focus on fixing your marriage by developing new habits. Stop fighting and refocus. If you can't refocus, then get help getting back on track.
I would point out again, that you can have sex without bc. You can satisfy each other without it, so it's not like you have to wait. Just be honest with her, Hilltopper, without being critical.
How do you feel about the subject of resent? My wife freely admits that she is resentful of me. She is resentful of her mom, her dad, my mom, and both of my sisters. How can I work on our marriage if she never gets over anything? In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
The resentment on both sides will fade if you restore the love in your marriage. That is where I would focus. Instead of focusing on resentment and fights, etc, focus on fixing your marriage by developing new habits. Stop fighting and refocus. If you can't refocus, then get help getting back on track.
I would point out again, that you can have sex without bc. You can satisfy each other without it, so it's not like you have to wait. Just be honest with her, Hilltopper, without being critical.
Good call on the focus. As far as doing other things which I'm all for, I guess I'll just tell her how I feel and be confident and positive about it. The worst that can happen is she'll say no.
How do you feel about the subject of resent? My wife freely admits that she is resentful of me. She is resentful of her mom, her dad, my mom, and both of my sisters. How can I work on our marriage if she never gets over anything? In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
Be really careful of those resentful relatives. Other people, particularly your own relatives, can cause love bank withdrawals in YOUR account! If your wife feels like the people are in some way associated with you, that is.
In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
Grace is having trouble seeing how the two of you can negotiate a win-win solution on birth control. Most people, probably almost everybody, is locked into the idea that it's got to be either your way or my way. She doesn't see a path forward with the negotiation route, and her instincts are telling her that the only way to get anything done is to revert to the old habit of independent behavior.
Dictatorships appear to be "efficient" but of course they don't build love, which is what you really need.
Stay calm. Of course.
And stay the course. Stay respectful, stay open and honest about what you need, do not be demanding. Review some of Dr. Harley's Q&A articles regularly to keep yourself focused on on track.
I wish you guys could've gotten a chance to negotiate on smaller issues first before this, but this is the situation you are in.
I let her know that I didn't want a marriage where SF is off the table.
Statements like these are very easily perceived as threats. And threats of course are a horrible love buster.
A lot of advice focuses on trying to "get your message across" and really just shows you how to add drama to what you are saying. Drama is absolutely not what you need.
It's best to focus on cause, effect, and facts, and keep things simple:
"I would like to keep negotiating about sex and birth control. I would like to find a way that we can start meeting each other's SF need again as soon as possible."
This woman doesn't forget or move past ANYTHING.
I just want to remind you that statements like this are a disrespectful judgment.
No poking, okay? You understand what I am talking about? If you continue to poke, you can continue to expect the results you are getting.
That's also a disrespectful judgment.
This is why it will continue to escalate unless I eliminate LBs entirely.
Reality check, here: Dr. Harley maintains that demands, disrespect, and anger should
not be tolerated in marriage, and should be eliminated entirely. Do you agree?
markos, I had viewed that comment as a [legitimate] complaint because it expresses his feelings about the future of the marriage. It wasn't a criticism because it did not include a judgement. But it did convey a very important truth: that he does not want a marriage that does not include SF.
I think it is important that she understands she is not going to be able to keep him in a marriage for long if she refuses to meet his needs. How should he have told her this? I do think it is imperative that she know this, otherwise, she will think she is entitled to unconditional love. [which leads to neglect and abuse] I didn't view the comment as a threat, but as a statement of truth.
Hilltopper, my XH did leave me for another woman in 1999 for this very reason. He did not tell me how miserable he was over the lack of SF, either. I feel strongly that he should have been honest about the lack of SF dooming the marriage. That would have been preferable to having an affair and leaving for her.
I had scheduled time with Steve, but we improved so much in such a short period of time we never followed through with it.
Marriages tend to improve in fits and starts. It seems really good, then you hit a downturn that you never would have thought possible when things were good. The discouragement can be overwhelming, which of course can make you give up on good plans and good positive actions that affect the long term health of your marriage. You wind up sacrificing the long term for the short term.
Steve is a great step to take to help the long-term.
Did you schedule with Steve and then cancel? Surely you didn't pay and then not show up, right?
Just curious.
Go read Dr. Harley's description of the marriage counseling process, really read it:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.htmlPoorly organized counselors will often see clients for weeks before they get down to deciding how they'll proceed. During that time, the crisis is over and the motivation to solve the problem is postponed until the next crisis. The couple drops out of therapy no wiser or better off than they came.
Men generally want to get out of therapy as soon as possible, even when they were the ones that wanted it the most in the beginning. They don't like the idea of reporting to someone regarding their behavior, and my role as a counselor is to see to it that they follow through on what they promised. They often agree to anything to get their wives back, and then once she's home, they go back to their old habits.
I'm not perfect, nor innocent in this marriage. I have done my fair share to cause her pain. I don't know how important the marriage is to her, in fact I've often thought it was more important to me and that she is frequently indifferent about it.
Yes, that may be genuinely how she feels.
You affect her feelings.
There is a plan here at Marriage Builders for you to affect her feelings in a positive way.
You don't like the way she appears to feel about your marriage, and you are judging her for it, and you would like to make her feel differently.
markos, I had viewed that comment as a [legitimate] complaint because it expresses his feelings about the future of the marriage. It wasn't a criticism because it did not include a judgement. But it did convey a very important truth: that he does not want a marriage that does not include SF.
I don't usually disagree with you, Melody, but this one hit a nerve. Markos has said similar things to me. It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
He can express his need for SF without making it a demand. "My EN for SF is not being met, and it is hurting me. I would like to continue negotiating until we come to a solution that makes both of us happy."
I think it is important that she understands she is not going to be able to keep him in a marriage for long if she refuses to meet his needs. How should he have told her this?
I don't think Hilltopper is in any position to tell her this. Ultimatums are a LB, no matter how you word them.
Dr. Harley says that demands usually follow a complaint when a spouse is being neglected, and it is a mistake. He outlines what should be done instead:
The most common first response to a spouse's neglect is to complain: "I'd like it if you'd be more affectionate." A complaint is an effort to communicate a problem without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry. It's a notification there's an opportunity to make deposits (or avoid withdrawals) from the Love Bank. There's nothing wrong with that initial approach to the problem of neglect since it's simply communicating a need.
But when that doesn't produce results, mistakes usually follow. The first mistake is to criticize: "Why do you ignore me? What's wrong with you?" A criticism adds demands, disrespect, and/or anger to the complaint. The message of an unmet emotional need is buried under layers of abuse. Instead of creating a cooperative partner, it creates an adversary.
...
The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger.
...
This first step may solve your problem. Your husband may respond positively to your request, and the issue of unconditional love may not become a factor in his thinking.
...
But if your husband refuses to accept your offer, the next step I recommend is very controversial, but when you compare it to the alternatives, it makes the most sense. It has two parts. I call one part plan A, and the other plan B. These two parts are to be executed sequentially -- plan A is first, followed by plan B.
Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too.
But before you begin plan A, prepare for plan B, which is to completely separate from your husband. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have him move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.
How should you tell your spouse, "We have a problem."
One of the reasons that spouses postpone their complaints is that the way they complain often starts a fight. While the complaint does get the problem out on the table, it often wrecks what could have been a peaceful evening at home. And after the fight is over, the problem usually remains unsolved. So, how should you introduce a problem to your spouse in a way that doesn't lead to a fight, and makes it easy to solve?
First, this is what you should NOT do when presenting a problem to your spouse:
DO NOT make a demand. A demand is an effort to force your spouse to do what you want without consideration for how your spouse will feel doing it. "Do it, or else," is the clear message given in a demand, and it coveys an insensitivity to your spouse's feelings or interests. It's a Love Buster because demands withdraw love units. Instead of helping to solve a problem, it creates a new problem. A thoughtful request, on the other hand, is a good way to ask your spouse for help, because it takes his or her feelings into account. "How would you feel if you were to do this for me," introduces the problem with a willingness to negotiate a win-win solution.
DO NOT make a disrespectful judgment. When you present the problem, avoid expressing it as being the fault of your spouse. "If you were less selfish, we wouldn't have this problem," is an example of a disrespectful judgment that will get you nowhere. Instead of blaming your spouse for the problem, view it as a problem for you that is, apparently, not a problem for your spouse. Respectful persuasion is an effort to try to change your spouse's behavior that, in the end, will not only help you, but will help your spouse as well.
DO NOT have an angry outburst. Anger is your Taker's way of punishing your spouse when he or she does not give you what you want. It's not only an ineffective way to produce long-lasting change in your spouse's behavior, but it also destroys your spouse's love for you.
Granted, if you present your complaint in a thoughtful way, and your spouse responds with thoughtlessness, you will be very tempted to revert to your Taker's instincts by being demanding, disrespectful and angry. But it takes two to fight, and if your spouse does not respond positively to your presentation, simply end the discussion, and re-introduce your problem again later.
It's very important for both you and your spouse to do a good job meeting each other's emotional needs, and avoiding behavior that causes each other's unhappiness. But when either of you have a complaint, I suggest that you use this procedure:
First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.
Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?
Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems, looking for a plan that would solve your problem, and at the same time take your spouse's feelings into account. Avoid any solution where one of you gains at the other's expense. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them. If you sacrifice for each other, in the end, you won't have the mutual love for each other that you want. But also recognize the importance of eventually finding a solution that solves the problem.
Finally, from your list of possible solutions, choose the one that has the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your spouse. That way, the solution will deposit love units into both of your Love Banks simultaneously. If you can't find one that meets that standard, keep brainstorming.
To guarantee your love for each other, you and your spouse must address each other's complaints as soon as they arise. Don't let your problems build up before you find solutions, because the longer you wait, the more love units you lose. But, if you're not careful, the way you go about presenting your problem and trying to find solutions can also cause you to lose love units.
You will not only deposit love units by solving the problems themselves, but you will also deposit love units in the very way you go about solving the problem, if you do it the right way.
Most couples lose love units whenever they have a conflict because they present their complaints with demands, disrespect and anger. And then they look for solutions that help one spouse but hurt the other. That's no way to resolve conflicts, and it's certainly no way to stay in love.
The better you become at stating your complaints with your spouse's feelings in mind, and then finding solutions with the same thoughtfulness, the more you will feel like getting to each problem immediately. But until you get to the place where you feel like presenting your problems as soon as they occur, do it anyway. Don't try to lower your expectations, and don't try to meet your own emotional needs. Instead, learn to become experts at meeting each other's emotional needs. That way you will have what you have always wanted -- a fulfilling and passionate marriage.
[I don't usually disagree with you, Melody, but this one hit a nerve. Markos has said similar things to me. It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
See, I don't see this as a demand at all. I see it is a complaint coupled with a truthful statement. If a spouse is prepared to leave the marriage if the other refuses to meet his needs, shouldn't that be conveyed? In my case, if my XH had told me he was leaving over this, I would have taken it much more seriously. Are you saying the alternative is to give her an opportunity to meet the need and then just LEAVE when she doesn't do it?
I don't think Hilltopper is in any position to tell her this. Ultimatums are a LB, no matter how you word them.
I don't see how it is a lovebuster. An ultimatum is a stated condition whose rejection will result in a direct action, in this case, the very possible end of the marriage.
So, are you saying he should not TELL HER honestly he is not willing to stay in the marriage under those conditions? Because I wouldn't agree with that.
Either way, Hill, are you prepared to back that statement (threat, ultimatum, boundary, take your pick) up? If your choices are leave, v or no sex, which would you chose? Because this may very well end up being like the solution to the domestic support issues that can't be resolved...whoever its important to, has to do it. And if you're not willing to follow through...then don't say it. It destroys your credibility and does seem like an empty threat. In the past, you've said things that you didn't really mean....and that's something you have to stop doing. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Otherwise bite your tongue, duct tape your mouth shut, whatever it takes.
It destroys your credibility and does seem like an empty threat.
Hold the phone there. Are you suggesting he should be willing to stay in a marriage with a spouse who refuses to have sex with him? No responsible marriage counselor would advise that. Dr Harley does not advise that. The issue at hand is whether he tells her it will end the marriage or if he follows the plan in When to Call it Quits and just separates after attempting to get her to meet his needs.
What are you suggesting exactly? How long EXACTLY should he endure being deprived of sex?
And by the way, I very much DO see Prisca's point and can see how it fits with the article she posted.
Absolutely not! I'm glad he's giving her fair warning, unlike your H, so she's not blindsided like you were. My H has denied me for 7 years now this month, so I know how he feels. But, my question/point is...is he serious? Will he actually do it? When you start making those kind of statements (I won't accept a marriage without sex) you have to be prepared to actually do something about it or the person you say it to will learn that you really don't mean what you say. And I think Hill has had a problem with this in the past, saying things that he didn't mean in the heat of the moment.
Case in point...me. I'm not willing to pull the plug so I don't make those kinds of statements. If he forced my hand, I'd end up backing down and be in an even worse position. I just wanted to make sure that Hill has really thought about this.
It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
Prisca, actually, I think this is a big part of dropping the rope here, moving from the power struggle of Renting into becoming a Buyer, doing what you can and respecting your spouse and their decisions. My partner can withhold whatever they want, of course. But I will likely fall out of love with them if we don't find solutions we both like for too long. I'm just human like everyone else.
The same way, I encourage you not to let that "electric fence" thought patterns take hold. Choose your attitude, hon, you can do this. Acknowledging we're human and count on certain needs being met within marriage at some point is honest. It's not honest for a spouse to pretend they can go on being loving indefinitely while enduring forced celibacy without a reason both are enthusiastic about, like an extended illness.
It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
Prisca, actually, I think this is a big part of dropping the rope here, moving from the power struggle of Renting into becoming a Buyer, doing what you can and respecting your spouse and their decisions. My partner can withhold whatever they want, of course. But I will likely fall out of love with them if we don't find solutions we both like for too long. I'm just human like everyone else.
The same way, I encourage you not to let that "electric fence" thought patterns take hold. Choose your attitude, hon, you can do this. Acknowledging we're human and count on certain needs being met within marriage at some point is honest. It's not honest for a spouse to pretend they can go on being loving indefinitely while enduring forced celibacy without a reason both are enthusiastic about, like an extended illness.
NED, I haven't argued against any of this. The disagreement I had with Melody was not on whether or not Hilltopper should remain celibate. Did you read my post? We're all in agreement that he doesn't need to be forced to remain celibate. We disagree on whether or not an ultimatum is a demand.
Choose my attitude? Huh?
See, I don't see this as a demand at all. I see it is a complaint coupled with a truthful statement.
The very definition of "ultimatum" is a demand, "one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action."
She may give in and do what he wants, but she will likely feel forced and resentful. She will feel threatened.
Dr. Harley's articles seem to suggest the Plan A/Plan B approach.
If a spouse is prepared to leave the marriage if the other refuses to meet his needs, shouldn't that be conveyed?
Doesn't a spouse usually do that when they enter into Plan B?
In my case, if my XH had told me he was leaving over this, I would have taken it much more seriously. Are you saying the alternative is to give her an opportunity to meet the need and then just LEAVE when she doesn't do it?
In my case, though, when Markos did do this to me, I just went further into withdraw.
I am not saying to not let her know that there is an unmet need here. He should be honest that he needs SF, and he's hurting. But I don't believe he is going to do any good by making an ultimatum. I believe she will see him as demanding and threatening, and he will only drive Grace further away.
I think he should only make such an ultimatum if he has the explicit permission of Dr. Harley to do so
I think it's a very risky move.
So, are you saying he should not TELL HER honestly he is not willing to stay in the marriage under those conditions? Because I wouldn't agree with that.
No, he should not tell her that unless he is going into Plan B today. She's familar with MB. She knows she's draining his lovebank. She knows unconditional love is a myth. She knows he's falling out of love with her because of this. She knows she's killing her marriage. She knows it is her responsiblity to take care of his EN.
It would be interesting to get Dr. Harley's take on this.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. It just looks very risky to me.
Those are good, well thought out points, Prisca, and I do see your perspective. The basic problem I see here is that she has illusions of unconditional love. She really does believe that he will stay in this marriage with her even though she refuses to meet his needs. That belief is what leads to false expectations of entitlement and has led to her neglect of him.
So if there�s no religious reason to give or receive unconditional love in marriage, we�re left with practical reasons. And I know of none. If Joyce were to tell me that she loves me unconditionally, and were to mean by that that she�ll meet my emotional needs regardless of how I treat her, I wouldn�t be very motivated to treat her with utmost care. I could get away with anything, knowing that she�d be there to pick up the pieces. There are many that I counsel that expect to be cared for unconditionally after an affair, abuse, and even attempted murder. After all, it was promised at the time of their wedding.
My job as a marriage counselor is to encourage both spouses to meet each other�s emotional needs, and avoid hurting each other. When they follow my advice, they fall in love and stay in love. But one spouse can�t do the job alone. They must work together to build a successful marriage. Neither should promise unconditional love because a great marriage is a joint effort with many conditions.
Which leads to the suggestions in When To Call it Quits. Obviously she knows SF is his top need, and obviously she refuses to meet that need so that is where he should go next, IMO.
>>There is still a lot of resent because I said I'd get a V after the third kid because a buddy of mine did.<<
Hill this seems to be where your problem lies. You said you would get a vestectomy and now you are not. Some people would see this as a crediblity issue.
I am not arguing the merits of a v I have never thought of getting one myself, but you are stuck with having said you would get one. Where is the follow through?
I can see your wife over the next few months working up and getting her tubes tied. Your sex life will probably improve some what but what you will be left with is, when it comes to the big test, your wife will have followed through and you have not.
I would chop an arm off before I ever let that happen.
How will you mitigate this?
Prisca, I am respectfully asking you, please don't make the crazy face at me. Like you, I'm trying to reason through Hill's dilemma with him, how to de-escalate a difficult situation. I did read your post, detailed how-to on de-escalating ways for him to discuss this. See, we're all working towards the same goal.
They both have a lot of fear and feel misunderstood. Hill that he is stuck in a sex-starved marriage. Grace that she's stuck doing things she has no interest in. But that's fear talking, because really they both want the middle ground - light, fun SF that they would both look forward to. In ways that minimize the risk of more kids right now.
I was trying to also bring up another part of the dynamic, how she experiences his beginning attempts as ultimatums. The electric fence thought pattern, that "fills in the blanks" in an all-or-nothing way. Instead of looking forward to the light, fun, no-pressure habits that are the goal. That being honest and very calm in a kind way can help those situations.
Prisca, I am respectfully asking you, please don't make the crazy face at me.
When you imply that I'm arguing things that I'm not, that I have an electric fence personality, and that I need to "choose my attitude," exactly what kind of face should I make?
Obviously she knows SF is his top need, and obviously she refuses to meet that need so that is where he should go next, IMO.
I agree with that.
Hill this seems to be where your problem lies. You said you would get a vestectomy and now you are not. Some people would see this as a crediblity issue.
I am not arguing the merits of a v I have never thought of getting one myself, but you are stuck with having said you would get one. Where is the follow through?
When a spouse makes an agreement, then later changes his mind, the solution is not to force a follow through, but to renegotiate and come up with a new solution.
Grace has also said that she was, at one time, willing to have her tubes tied, but is now unwilling to consider it. She is, instead, demanding that Hilltopper do something that he doesn't want, refuses to negotiate, and is neglecting Hilltopper until he complies.
For him to give in to her demands at this point would cause more harm than good.
Hill this seems to be where your problem lies. You said you would get a vestectomy and now you are not. Some people would see this as a crediblity issue.
I am not arguing the merits of a v I have never thought of getting one myself, but you are stuck with having said you would get one. Where is the follow through?
And what does the POJA dictate should happen to any agreement where the spouse changes his mind? The solution is to NOT follow through and to negotiate a NEW agreement that makes them both happy. Has nothing to do with credibility but everything to do with making both spouses happy.
I thought we were discussing, not arguing. I was trying to talk together in a respectful way, but from your reaction I think I must've somehow fallen short. I am not saying that you have an electric fence personality. I think that thought pattern you described, "well now he's just making demands so I'm not going to negotiate for now" sounded to me like Zap! Electric Fence! But what do I know? When I said you can choose your attitude all I mean is that even when a spouse comes off wrong you can still choose Buyer mode and keep negotiating.
But I don't know if any of these patterns are familiar to Hill or not. Hill, how is the negotiating steps thing going for you two? Do you have the safe environment established? Are you on to the next steps?
NED, you cannot negotiate with someone who is making demands as it violates the 2nd ground rule of the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Simply a fact, no zapping involved.
You can, however, continue to request that your demanding spouse negotiate with you. Which is what I advised Hilltopper to do.
Hilltop
Seems like there's a whole lotta talking about sex and very little action in the affection or SF departments. A mother with three young children probably feels overwhelmed, and if she is breastfeeding the baby and her body is not back to its pre-baby state, she may be feeling anything but sexy.
You may need to meet jointly with a physician to discuss the bc issues and use him/her to help mediate a solution.
In the meantime, could you try offering her a full body massage (promising that you will not try to have sex), focusing on her relaxation and the sensory pleasure of having you offer non-sexual attention and care for her body? Removing the pressure to have sex may help her feel more open and loving toward you. Be sure to offer her words of love as well, telling her how lovely she is, how you are in awe of her and her ability to bear you three beautiful children and to love and nuture both them and you.
If you practice non-sexual touch a few times and reassure her that she is beautiful to you and that you are sensitive to her fear of becoming pregnant and the need to share the responsibility of coming to a mutually-agreeable solution to the bc problem, she might become more interested again in sex.
Some women find their sexual responsiveness diminished after childbirth, especially after the birth of a 3rd child. Starting with a non-sexual massage, eventually moving into sexual massage and pleasuring her either manually or orally may help her get back into the mood of fulfilling your need for SF.
Pressuring her for sex or complaining that your sexual needs are not being met will make her less willing to try to fulfill your EN of SF. She may also become fearful that you will leave her or have an affair.
Pressuring her for sex or complaining that your sexual needs are not being met will make her less willing to try to fulfill your EN of SF. She may also become fearful that you will leave her or have an affair.
She needs to understand that this is where her marriage is headed though. Refusing to meet your spouse's needs is a deal breaker. Not even Dr Harley recommends staying in a marriage where one spouse REFUSES to meet the other's needs. My XH had an affair and left me for the OW for this very reason. Dr Harley recommends that the neglected spouse separate and eventually divorce if one spouse won't meet the needs of the other.
[I don't usually disagree with you, Melody, but this one hit a nerve. Markos has said similar things to me. It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
See, I don't see this as a demand at all. I see it is a complaint coupled with a truthful statement. If a spouse is prepared to leave the marriage if the other refuses to meet his needs, shouldn't that be conveyed? In my case, if my XH had told me he was leaving over this, I would have taken it much more seriously. Are you saying the alternative is to give her an opportunity to meet the need and then just LEAVE when she doesn't do it?
I don't think Hilltopper is in any position to tell her this. Ultimatums are a LB, no matter how you word them.
I don't see how it is a lovebuster. An ultimatum is a stated condition whose rejection will result in a direct action, in this case, the very possible end of the marriage.
So, are you saying he should not TELL HER honestly he is not willing to stay in the marriage under those conditions? Because I wouldn't agree with that.
This reminded me of when chickadee's FWH was on the radio show ~ his need for SF wasn't being met so he sought it outside the M. Basically, Dr Harley talks to chick's FWH about how when their negotiations did not improve their sex life, what he should have done was acknowledged that he couldn't stay in a M without SF, been transparent about it, and sought D if his EN still wasn't being met.
Part 1 Part 2 Towards the end of the second segment there is talk about what happens when you ignore your taker.
I think it might be beneficial to you, HT, to listen to these segments. HTH...
ML,
Yes, she needs to realize that failure to meet her husband's EN of SF is a threat to the marriage, but it sounds as if she has unfulfilled ENs besides that of honesty. I doubt she is withholding sex just to be mean. Hill and his wife definitely need to get the bc issue sorted out, but I also think his wife is more likely to respond to her H's need for SF if her EN for affection is being fulfilled.
Communicating his need lovingly rather than as a demand or a threat is likely to elicit better results.
How do you feel about the subject of resent? My wife freely admits that she is resentful of me. She is resentful of her mom, her dad, my mom, and both of my sisters. How can I work on our marriage if she never gets over anything? In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
Be really careful of those resentful relatives. Other people, particularly your own relatives, can cause love bank withdrawals in YOUR account! If your wife feels like the people are in some way associated with you, that is.
Markos, my wife is resentful, go ask her. This is not a judgement if she states the same thing right? I do not respect my wife's feelings as it pertains to my mom and sisters and she knows this. I do however want a good marriage so I have adapted and made sure she is enthusiastic about any time spent with any of them. Its the same thing still. She wants everyone in her life to express their feelings on every subject like she does. While I know our marriage needs this radical honesty, I do not believe my wife has the right to expect this from my mom and sisters. So this underlying conflict remains because my mom and sister tend to avoid some uncomfortable conflicts as they arise.
In fact she sent me a text stating that she will just have to put up with all the resent she has for me and handle the birth control situation herself.
Grace is having trouble seeing how the two of you can negotiate a win-win solution on birth control. Most people, probably almost everybody, is locked into the idea that it's got to be either your way or my way. She doesn't see a path forward with the negotiation route, and her instincts are telling her that the only way to get anything done is to revert to the old habit of independent behavior.
Dictatorships appear to be "efficient" but of course they don't build love, which is what you really need.
Stay calm. Of course.
And stay the course. Stay respectful, stay open and honest about what you need, do not be demanding. Review some of Dr. Harley's Q&A articles regularly to keep yourself focused on on track.
I wish you guys could've gotten a chance to negotiate on smaller issues first before this, but this is the situation you are in.
This issue is big and I wish we had a chance to negotiate on smaller things first as well. There never was negotiation in our marriage. Typically, unless really important to me, I did whatever she wanted. I researched Vs, came to my own conclusions about it and she flat out doesn't respect my decision. I rarely told her no in the past which is why I said I'd get a V in the first place.
I let her know that I didn't want a marriage where SF is off the table.
Statements like these are very easily perceived as threats. And threats of course are a horrible love buster.
A lot of advice focuses on trying to "get your message across" and really just shows you how to add drama to what you are saying. Drama is absolutely not what you need.
It's best to focus on cause, effect, and facts, and keep things simple:
"I would like to keep negotiating about sex and birth control. I would like to find a way that we can start meeting each other's SF need again as soon as possible."
Ok this is where everybody gets off track. I can understand how you perceive that statement. To be more clear I never said I'd leave her, I said I wanted to negotiate a resolution because I don't want a marriage where there is no sex. Now I suppose at some point in the future maybe there would be that road to cross, but for the time being I just want to get to a point where SF is part of our lives.
This woman doesn't forget or move past ANYTHING.
I just want to remind you that statements like this are a disrespectful judgment.
No poking, okay? You understand what I am talking about? If you continue to poke, you can continue to expect the results you are getting.
That's also a disrespectful judgment.
This is why it will continue to escalate unless I eliminate LBs entirely.
Reality check, here: Dr. Harley maintains that demands, disrespect, and anger should
not be tolerated in marriage, and should be eliminated entirely. Do you agree?
This resent thing again is a big, big deal. It is a massive impediment to our marriage because any mistake I made she holds on to. Again not a judgement, go ask her if she holds on to things.
I do not respect my wife's feelings as it pertains to my mom and sisters and she knows this.
This is a major problem.
markos, I had viewed that comment as a [legitimate] complaint because it expresses his feelings about the future of the marriage. It wasn't a criticism because it did not include a judgement. But it did convey a very important truth: that he does not want a marriage that does not include SF.
I think it is important that she understands she is not going to be able to keep him in a marriage for long if she refuses to meet his needs. How should he have told her this? I do think it is imperative that she know this, otherwise, she will think she is entitled to unconditional love. [which leads to neglect and abuse] I didn't view the comment as a threat, but as a statement of truth.
Hilltopper, my XH did leave me for another woman in 1999 for this very reason. He did not tell me how miserable he was over the lack of SF, either. I feel strongly that he should have been honest about the lack of SF dooming the marriage. That would have been preferable to having an affair and leaving for her.
This is a very valid point I think. SF is my #1 so I need it and it makes me happy in our marriage. Regardless of the reason it is being withheld(accidental pregnancy), from my perspective its has become an all or nothing. Many of you have mentioned all the different means of satisfaction and birth control and I have mentioned every one of them to my wife but she just says no. Non-PIV stuff is "off the table" as well. I can't make her, but again I don't respect her deliberate decision to withhold even this from me. In addition it makes it hard to believe that it is all about accidental pregnancies since Non-PIV will not cause it to happen.
I had scheduled time with Steve, but we improved so much in such a short period of time we never followed through with it.
Marriages tend to improve in fits and starts. It seems really good, then you hit a downturn that you never would have thought possible when things were good. The discouragement can be overwhelming, which of course can make you give up on good plans and good positive actions that affect the long term health of your marriage. You wind up sacrificing the long term for the short term.
Steve is a great step to take to help the long-term.
Did you schedule with Steve and then cancel? Surely you didn't pay and then not show up, right?
Just curious.
Go read Dr. Harley's description of the marriage counseling process, really read it:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.htmlPoorly organized counselors will often see clients for weeks before they get down to deciding how they'll proceed. During that time, the crisis is over and the motivation to solve the problem is postponed until the next crisis. The couple drops out of therapy no wiser or better off than they came.
Men generally want to get out of therapy as soon as possible, even when they were the ones that wanted it the most in the beginning. They don't like the idea of reporting to someone regarding their behavior, and my role as a counselor is to see to it that they follow through on what they promised. They often agree to anything to get their wives back, and then once she's home, they go back to their old habits.
No never paid. Dr Harley suggested we try the online course.
markos, I had viewed that comment as a [legitimate] complaint because it expresses his feelings about the future of the marriage. It wasn't a criticism because it did not include a judgement. But it did convey a very important truth: that he does not want a marriage that does not include SF.
I don't usually disagree with you, Melody, but this one hit a nerve. Markos has said similar things to me. It is a demand and a threat -- it comes across as "I don't want this marriage unless you give me what I want. Meet my needs, or I'm leaving you."
He can express his need for SF without making it a demand. "My EN for SF is not being met, and it is hurting me. I would like to continue negotiating until we come to a solution that makes both of us happy."
I think it is important that she understands she is not going to be able to keep him in a marriage for long if she refuses to meet his needs. How should he have told her this?
I don't think Hilltopper is in any position to tell her this. Ultimatums are a LB, no matter how you word them.
Dr. Harley says that demands usually follow a complaint when a spouse is being neglected, and it is a mistake. He outlines what should be done instead:
The most common first response to a spouse's neglect is to complain: "I'd like it if you'd be more affectionate." A complaint is an effort to communicate a problem without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry. It's a notification there's an opportunity to make deposits (or avoid withdrawals) from the Love Bank. There's nothing wrong with that initial approach to the problem of neglect since it's simply communicating a need.
But when that doesn't produce results, mistakes usually follow. The first mistake is to criticize: "Why do you ignore me? What's wrong with you?" A criticism adds demands, disrespect, and/or anger to the complaint. The message of an unmet emotional need is buried under layers of abuse. Instead of creating a cooperative partner, it creates an adversary.
...
The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger.
...
This first step may solve your problem. Your husband may respond positively to your request, and the issue of unconditional love may not become a factor in his thinking.
...
But if your husband refuses to accept your offer, the next step I recommend is very controversial, but when you compare it to the alternatives, it makes the most sense. It has two parts. I call one part plan A, and the other plan B. These two parts are to be executed sequentially -- plan A is first, followed by plan B.
Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too.
But before you begin plan A, prepare for plan B, which is to completely separate from your husband. You can't simply move out of the bedroom. You must move from the house, or have him move. If you live in a state that supports legal separation, go to the trouble to see an attorney so that all financial and legal arrangements are made in advance. Be sure that you can support yourself for an extended period of time, such as a year.
Yes it could have come across as that Prisca. But I was very clear to let her know that this was not a threat but a statement as to what I need out of a marriage. I was implying that I don't want a marriage that involves no SF, not that an "if" "than" statement that I'm leaving if it doesn't change.
Either way, Hill, are you prepared to back that statement (threat, ultimatum, boundary, take your pick) up? If your choices are leave, v or no sex, which would you chose? Because this may very well end up being like the solution to the domestic support issues that can't be resolved...whoever its important to, has to do it. And if you're not willing to follow through...then don't say it. It destroys your credibility and does seem like an empty threat. In the past, you've said things that you didn't really mean....and that's something you have to stop doing. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Otherwise bite your tongue, duct tape your mouth shut, whatever it takes.
I'm not ready at this point in time no, but yes I believe there would be a time that I would have to go Plan B and possibly divorce should this situation never change. I think it will change however, but only when she is ready.
See, I don't see this as a demand at all. I see it is a complaint coupled with a truthful statement.
The very definition of "ultimatum" is a demand, "one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action."
She may give in and do what he wants, but she will likely feel forced and resentful. She will feel threatened.
Dr. Harley's articles seem to suggest the Plan A/Plan B approach.
If a spouse is prepared to leave the marriage if the other refuses to meet his needs, shouldn't that be conveyed?
Doesn't a spouse usually do that when they enter into Plan B?
In my case, if my XH had told me he was leaving over this, I would have taken it much more seriously. Are you saying the alternative is to give her an opportunity to meet the need and then just LEAVE when she doesn't do it?
In my case, though, when Markos did do this to me, I just went further into withdraw.
I am not saying to not let her know that there is an unmet need here. He should be honest that he needs SF, and he's hurting. But I don't believe he is going to do any good by making an ultimatum. I believe she will see him as demanding and threatening, and he will only drive Grace further away.
I think he should only make such an ultimatum if he has the explicit permission of Dr. Harley to do so
I think it's a very risky move.
So, are you saying he should not TELL HER honestly he is not willing to stay in the marriage under those conditions? Because I wouldn't agree with that.
No, he should not tell her that unless he is going into Plan B today. She's familar with MB. She knows she's draining his lovebank. She knows unconditional love is a myth. She knows he's falling out of love with her because of this. She knows she's killing her marriage. She knows it is her responsiblity to take care of his EN.
It would be interesting to get Dr. Harley's take on this.
I can sort of see where you're coming from. It just looks very risky to me.
Accidental pregnancy is so horrific to my wife that she doesn't care about depriving me of my need she said. She even went into the "it's my body" thing last night and that she will decide and it's not up to me about birth control. I told her it sure didn't sound like anything was being negotiated at all and that I would like to really try and work through this point by point. She just kept saying it was her decision so I backed off. I can't make her give me SF and I can't make her get birth control. She can't make me get a V, but the difference lies in who gets hurt the most. Obviously that one is me as she has shown that she can go without SF as long as need be.
>>There is still a lot of resent because I said I'd get a V after the third kid because a buddy of mine did.<<
Hill this seems to be where your problem lies. You said you would get a vestectomy and now you are not. Some people would see this as a crediblity issue.
I am not arguing the merits of a v I have never thought of getting one myself, but you are stuck with having said you would get one. Where is the follow through?
I can see your wife over the next few months working up and getting her tubes tied. Your sex life will probably improve some what but what you will be left with is, when it comes to the big test, your wife will have followed through and you have not.
I would chop an arm off before I ever let that happen.
How will you mitigate this?
Yes this is the single biggest source of resent in my wife. She sees it as unfair and unjust in a way I suppose. I said I'd get one to please her which was dishonest to the extent that I never researched it and learned about everything involved. So now she's feeling like everything has been dumped in her lap and I get that. She told me she doesn't respect that decision, nor the reasons why I feel that a V is not for me. So now we are still at the, "Well, if you would have had a vasectomy...." stage. It never ends at by the sound of it I don't think she'll EVER get over this. I've learned not to please her anymore in terms of just giving in and it has become a source of conflict only because I assume she liked it the way it was before?
I thought we were discussing, not arguing. I was trying to talk together in a respectful way, but from your reaction I think I must've somehow fallen short. I am not saying that you have an electric fence personality. I think that thought pattern you described, "well now he's just making demands so I'm not going to negotiate for now" sounded to me like Zap! Electric Fence! But what do I know? When I said you can choose your attitude all I mean is that even when a spouse comes off wrong you can still choose Buyer mode and keep negotiating.
But I don't know if any of these patterns are familiar to Hill or not. Hill, how is the negotiating steps thing going for you two? Do you have the safe environment established? Are you on to the next steps?
Each discussion on the subject escalates typically because neither one of us understands the other's point of view. I want to decide this as a team, she says I blew that chance so she'll do it on her own.
Hilltop
Seems like there's a whole lotta talking about sex and very little action in the affection or SF departments. A mother with three young children probably feels overwhelmed, and if she is breastfeeding the baby and her body is not back to its pre-baby state, she may be feeling anything but sexy.
You may need to meet jointly with a physician to discuss the bc issues and use him/her to help mediate a solution.
In the meantime, could you try offering her a full body massage (promising that you will not try to have sex), focusing on her relaxation and the sensory pleasure of having you offer non-sexual attention and care for her body? Removing the pressure to have sex may help her feel more open and loving toward you. Be sure to offer her words of love as well, telling her how lovely she is, how you are in awe of her and her ability to bear you three beautiful children and to love and nuture both them and you.
If you practice non-sexual touch a few times and reassure her that she is beautiful to you and that you are sensitive to her fear of becoming pregnant and the need to share the responsibility of coming to a mutually-agreeable solution to the bc problem, she might become more interested again in sex.
Some women find their sexual responsiveness diminished after childbirth, especially after the birth of a 3rd child. Starting with a non-sexual massage, eventually moving into sexual massage and pleasuring her either manually or orally may help her get back into the mood of fulfilling your need for SF.
Pressuring her for sex or complaining that your sexual needs are not being met will make her less willing to try to fulfill your EN of SF. She may also become fearful that you will leave her or have an affair.
No offense freefall, but since this is your first post I'll let you know that my wife doesn't really need affection, in fact I do. She turns down massage offers, sexual or not. Also complaining is a good thing.
This reminded me of when chickadee's FWH was on the radio show ~ his need for SF wasn't being met so he sought it outside the M. Basically, Dr Harley talks to chick's FWH about how when their negotiations did not improve their sex life, what he should have done was acknowledged that he couldn't stay in a M without SF, been transparent about it, and sought D if his EN still wasn't being met.
Part 1 Part 2 Towards the end of the second segment there is talk about what happens when you ignore your taker.
I think it might be beneficial to you, HT, to listen to these segments. HTH...
Did you listen to this, HTH? [thanks for posting it, Susie]
This reminded me of when chickadee's FWH was on the radio show ~ his need for SF wasn't being met so he sought it outside the M. Basically, Dr Harley talks to chick's FWH about how when their negotiations did not improve their sex life, what he should have done was acknowledged that he couldn't stay in a M without SF, been transparent about it, and sought D if his EN still wasn't being met.
Part 1 Part 2 Towards the end of the second segment there is talk about what happens when you ignore your taker.
I think it might be beneficial to you, HT, to listen to these segments. HTH...
Did you listen to this, HTH? [thanks for posting it, Susie]
I will at some point. By the way my wife won't come back to the forums. I'd really love her to. We grew and learned so much and all of us helped us which I thank you for tremendously. We're in conflict right now. We had a lovely finish to the night, and a nice morning, then out of nowhere she sends me an email telling me that I must respect her decision about birth control. That she doesn't respect nor trust me and that I've been dishonest our entire marriage. The dishonesty stems from me holding my feelings in mind, not what I would call traditional lying. So she doesn't know when she can believe me or not, and also that she doesn't want to discuss it anymore. In the middle of all of these things she sends me an apology that says, "I'm sorry I just get so emotional 5 times per day with kids, house, etc." Then she says she's taking off early for her hair cut even though I was not done working yet. I admit I replied, "aye aye captain" in a sarcastic manner, but she denies she was leaving without my consent. So what do I do? She shuts down every conversation we have about 10 minutes into it.
I hide my feelings from her because I don't like the conflict as I'm sure half of this forum does or did at some point. For her to call me "the biggest liar" in the world to my face about doing so just seems unfair. I'm working on being honest about everything and not bottling up how I'm feeling, but I'm just so confused and lost with how to handle her. Sure I say I'm just gonna meet her needs and avoid LBs, but I don't know how to read her. She loves me one minute and then I'm in the doghouse the next. She describes my behavior as if I'm some serial cheater or a compulsive liar.
Hill, I have a post I made ruminating about H&O that I am going to dig up for you. Gotta hold up though, as I'm posting from my phone...
I will at some point. By the way my wife won't come back to the forums. I'd really love her to. We grew and learned so much and all of us helped us which I thank you for tremendously.
I hope she comes back. Prisca has mentioned that she would be happy to be available to talk to Grace by email, if she wants. You might pass that along.
I am impressed at the way you wrote the above paragraph. There is no demand for your wife to come back. There is no disrespect of her choice to not come back. There is no anger expressed. No abuse on your part. Listen, Hill, you have come a long way. The Hilltopper of a few months ago would've blown his stack about the above, wouldn't he?
We're in conflict right now.
You certainly are. Remember Harley's three states of mind in marriage? Withdrawal, conflict, intimacy. You guys have adjusted to her being in withdrawal for years. Conflict is new, uncharted territory. It is full of LANDMINES for both of you. You've both had the habit of love busters during conflict, and of course love busters drive a spouse into withdrawal, and withdrawal is NOT productive. You need to be in the state of conflict, and navigate it without love busters until both of you are safely in intimacy. That ain't easy. But it is doable. It is going to take massive, superhuman amounts of patience on your part, as well as unbendable, unbreakable commitment to avoiding love busters. You must establish a policy of no tolerance for abusive love busters on your part, and stick to it without fail.
No poking.
It's a "be ye perfect" kind of situation. Don't just be good; be perfect. Don't settle for merely being "good" or even "excellent." No tolerance whatsoever for love busters.
We had a lovely finish to the night, and a nice morning, then out of nowhere she sends me an email telling me that I must respect her decision about birth control.
She is right that you must respect her.
That she doesn't respect nor trust me and that I've been dishonest our entire marriage.
She is not complaining in a respectful way, but she is still giving you valuable information. Her disrespect will tend to push you toward withdrawal, but if you can override that instinct and continue to meet her emotional needs and avoid love busters, you can make progress. She is giving you vital information. Express empathy for her feelings, accept responsibility for your failings (you have been dishonest), and do better. Yeah, you were hoping she would have stepped up to the plate a little more at this point, but she hasn't. Address this complaint. I promise you that her complaints are not endless and it is not impossible to address them all, though it may seem overwhelming.
The dishonesty stems from me holding my feelings in mind, not what I would call traditional lying.
What does Marriage Builders say about it?
In the middle of all of these things she sends me an apology that says, "I'm sorry I just get so emotional 5 times per day with kids, house, etc."
She wants support from you BAD. She feels neglected; she feels like her husband isn't there for her in this mess that she is having to deal with. She feels depressed due to the situation she is living in.
I admit I replied, "aye aye captain" in a sarcastic manner, but she denies she was leaving without my consent. So what do I do?
Ouch. Are you going to tolerate that kind of abuse out of yourself? Is it likely to make your marriage better, or worse?
I would apologize to her and tell her that was unjustified.
I also wouldn't get into an argument with her about whether she's leaving without your consent or not. It's independent behavior on her part, and I'd communicate that to her in a respectful way, once a week, in the way Dr. Harley suggests (worksheets).
She shuts down every conversation we have about 10 minutes into it.
Okay, so you start the conversation, you respectfully communicate what you need to say, you listen to what she has to say, express empathy, accept responsibility for your love busters, and when the conversation stops, note any love busters she committed on the worksheet that you are going to give her next week. Stick to this plan and be patient. It will get better.
I hide my feelings from her because I don't like the conflict as I'm sure half of this forum does or did at some point.
Yes, it's called being a conflict avoider. The best conflict avoider I know is markos, although I think my boss may run a close second.
Dr. Harley says to be honest anyway.
For her to call me "the biggest liar" in the world to my face about doing so just seems unfair.
DJ on her part; put it on the worksheet.
She probably does not understand that you are tempted to hide your feelings due to her love busters. Don't try to educate her about this; just continue to force yourself to be open and honest even when it's risky, and continue to communicate with her about once a week about her love busters, with the non-imposing worksheets.
You are likely gonna take some blows. I'm sorry about that. The good news is you are probably a little more resilient about that, being male. Remember that in the real major crisis marriages, with an ongoing affair, Dr. Harley says men can Plan A longer than women? You've got more capacity to absorb some of that stuff while you quietly communicate what a problem it is for you.
She loves me one minute and then I'm in the doghouse the next.
She's bouncing between withdrawal and conflict. It's all new territory. It's probably extremely painful and frightening for her.
She describes my behavior as if I'm some serial cheater or a compulsive liar.
So be radically honest!!!
Daily: invite her to spend time with you. Engage in conversation.
Daily: work on meeting some of the other emotional needs. Express affection. Provide DS or FC or FS or whatever she wants. Sounds like she wants O&H!
Weekly: communicate your need for SF to her. Communicate with her about her love busters (use the worksheets).
Then she says she's taking off early for her hair cut even though I was not done working yet. I admit I replied, "aye aye captain" in a sarcastic manner, but she denies she was leaving without my consent. So what do I do? She shuts down every conversation we have about 10 minutes into it.
I hide my feelings from her because I don't like the conflict as I'm sure half of this forum does or did at some point. For her to call me "the biggest liar" in the world to my face about doing so just seems unfair.
When your wife gets nasty ... be sweet. Make your voice quieter, gentler, sweeter. Practice getting softer and sweeter the nastier she gets. Make this response a new automatic habit on your part. Can you do this?
I just want to say I find this thread very beneficial to my own personal recovery. Understanding in an honest form the way a man really feels about conflict and issues in the marriage is awesome.
I appreciate the advice by all you men here, and look at this thread as a way into the mind of a husband that represents so many husbands, trying to have a great marriage.
If I recover my marriage I plan to make sure I respond better to my husband in terms of a wife.
Thanks again!!!
Just a quick update. I get very few of my needs met from my wife. I do my best however to meet hers as it serves no purpose to fight fire with fire. I let her know how I felt and as usual, the reason she doesn't meet my needs is because of me or other outside reasons like such as third child, finances, etc. She said her love bank is minus 100 and so I just asked her what I can do aside from meet her needs and avoid LB's. I'm confused and my wife has an excuse for everything.
Been wondering about ya'll lately.
Are you willing to give Steve Harley a call?
Been wondering about ya'll lately.
Are you willing to give Steve Harley a call?
I asked her if she'd be willing to pull out the workbook twice today, she will not answer the question. We are far from being able to call Steve Harley financially right now, business partnership issues. She seems to think that if we are financially secure then she'll meet my needs. I told her she either chooses to meet my needs or chooses not to, she didn't like that. I said it respectfully as best I could. The birth control issue remains unresolved and is not going anywhere. I've learned to live with very little SF for the time being, zero affection, zero admiration. We don't fight all the time which is good and I attribute it to the tools we gained her.
That's good you aren't fighting.
I'm a little concerned at the attitude that she doesn't have to meet your needs unless you provide financial support. Y'all married for better or for worse; a loss of a job is the worse that she married for.
BUT.
She did marry with a view toward having her need for financial support met. Are you working on a plan to get that secure?
As I recall Dr. Harley suggested you look at antidepressants. I know he suggests this particularly for men facing employment issues. Have you looked into them?
That's good you aren't fighting.
I'm a little concerned at the attitude that she doesn't have to meet your needs unless you provide financial support. Y'all married for better or for worse; a loss of a job is the worse that she married for.
BUT.
She did marry with a view toward having her need for financial support met. Are you working on a plan to get that secure?
As I recall Dr. Harley suggested you look at antidepressants. I know he suggests this particularly for men facing employment issues. Have you looked into them?
I own two companies, one my partner is buying me out of, the other does fine, plus I just got a new job that I work at 10 hours per day. Things are a little hairy financially but should be extremely comfortable once we get monthly payments from my partner.
I'm not really depressed, I'm just unhappy. I'm exercising like crazy which has taken care of the stress and I'm in great shape.
What is her complaint about finances? Just that those checks aren't coming in at this point, so it doesn't feel secure?
What is her complaint about finances? Just that those checks aren't coming in at this point, so it doesn't feel secure?
Yes it gets a little dicey and she wants to feel comfortable. I just asked for a third time to join me in the workbook once again. She said she feels like we are just together for the kids. I said over and over here on this forum that I felt she wasn't willing to put the effort in and everybody fired back and said I was wrong. Well here we are, a marriage with one willing participant, and the other just pointing fingers and having an excuse for everything. She said that when people are unhappy they don't do things for each other. I'm getting scared because she keeps saying we're just married for the kids. It makes me think that once the finances are nice and secure that she is not sticking around.
Hilltopper, is all of her time accounted for? Is she still open and transparent about everything?
I would not keep bringing up the workbook. Once a week, let her know you'd like to work the program. Do not demand; do not bring it up too often; do not have strong emotional reactions if she declines.
She does feel like you two are together just for the kids. This is a symptom of her not being in love with you. Of course we know how that can be changed, but she's got to willingly participate.
How is she spending her time each day? How is she spending her time in the evenings? I might consider letting her know that her choices are not okay with you, because you want to spend time together in affection, conversation, and recreation. I am guessing that she is spending some time otherwise that you are not happy with. Am I correct? Or are you 100% behind the way she spends all of her time?
I would not keep bringing up the workbook. Once a week, let her know you'd like to work the program. Do not demand; do not bring it up too often; do not have strong emotional reactions if she declines.
She does feel like you two are together just for the kids. This is a symptom of her not being in love with you. Of course we know how that can be changed, but she's got to willingly participate.
How is she spending her time each day? How is she spending her time in the evenings? I might consider letting her know that her choices are not okay with you, because you want to spend time together in affection, conversation, and recreation. I am guessing that she is spending some time otherwise that you are not happy with. Am I correct? Or are you 100% behind the way she spends all of her time?
No, the IB has kind of disappeared. We both get our hour in the gym separately. The time we spend is on the couch watching our favorite shows. In other words we've gotten lazy about it. She agreed to start the workbook tonight.
She agreed to start the workbook tonight.
The time we spend is on the couch watching our favorite shows. In other words we've gotten lazy about it.
You don't have to watch TV even if she wants to.
You can also become affectionate during TV time.
We both get our hour in the gym separately.
Now, that is a shame. Different times? Or you go at the same time and aren't together?
She said she feels like we are just together for the kids.
This has got me concerned, HT. This attitude is different than when she was posting here. Has anything else changed recently? Do you think she is holding a grudge about you not getting the V?
And...
What happened to Dr Harley's advice of getting UA time together outside of the house? Is she willing to do this? When was your last date night?
She said she feels like we are just together for the kids.
This has got me concerned, HT. This attitude is different than when she was posting here. Has anything else changed recently? Do you think she is holding a grudge about you not getting the V?
And...
What happened to Dr Harley's advice of getting UA time together outside of the house? Is she willing to do this? When was your last date night?
Grudge? Big time. She said she is over it and is ready to deal with the birth control issue, but nothing has happened. I think if I can get her into the workbook that we'll find time spending time together. This is the most important thing we can do. She said she loves me if that helps.
She agreed to start the workbook tonight.
The time we spend is on the couch watching our favorite shows. In other words we've gotten lazy about it.
You don't have to watch TV even if she wants to.
You can also become affectionate during TV time.
We both get our hour in the gym separately.
Now, that is a shame. Different times? Or you go at the same time and aren't together?
Different times. Even if we did go together she feels uncomfortable working out with me. I have the workbook in hand, she is dropping kids off at her folks down the street, I'm going to gym, then hopefully we can spend some time together tonight. I'm gonna start off by reviewing her EN's and LB's. I'll ask if she would do the same with mine.
Wife and I went to a party last night. Everybody was having a good time. I spent quite a bit of time by myself because we had baby with us and my wife is a bit of a social butterfly. Later in the evening her best friend's husband gave my wife a "peck" on the lips. I didn't think much of it at the time. When we got home my wife felt the need to bring it up and said, "that is just what he does when he gets drunk," to everyone. I told her it didn't bother me at the time. The truth is(and keep in mind I hold in my feelings like I am right at this moment), is that it makes me insecure and wonder if she is having an affair all over again. I mean who goes to a party for 6 hours and spends only 20 minutes of it with his own wife?
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
1) You shouldn't be discussing your sex life with another woman. Don't care if she is a "friend" or "mutual friend."
2) Neither should she. HOWEVER, Hill - we cannot address her behavior. You know what Love Busts you, you don't need confirmation or validation.
What can
you do to improve this week?
Wife and I went to a party last night. Everybody was having a good time. I spent quite a bit of time by myself because we had baby with us and my wife is a bit of a social butterfly. Later in the evening her best friend's husband gave my wife a "peck" on the lips. I didn't think much of it at the time. When we got home my wife felt the need to bring it up and said, "that is just what he does when he gets drunk," to everyone. I told her it didn't bother me at the time. The truth is(and keep in mind I hold in my feelings like I am right at this moment), is that it makes me insecure and wonder if she is having an affair all over again. I mean who goes to a party for 6 hours and spends only 20 minutes of it with his own wife?
Instead of running off on a tangent about an affair, I would simply tell her "I thought about this, and it does bother me. I am not okay with another man kissing you, even when drunk."
Personally, I would also quit going to such parties. Who wants to be around drunks?
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me. She apologized for it. We came to the conclusion that neither one of is happy because the effort is not being made once again. The effort is specifically about spending time together. We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.
Goodnight, Hilltopper, both of you need to get some stronger boundaries!
Both of your behavior was inexcusable at best.
You're both peering over the slippery slope, wondering how close to the edge you can get before slipping down it.
Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.
Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.
No not really, this friend of my wife's has been that way as long as I've known her. She doesn't appeal to me in the slightest bit, and no it didn't feel good. Nevertheless it was inappropriate.
We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.
I think that's probably essentially true.
We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me
Okay, we've established what bothers you. But there is an additional issue, what would bother your wife if she felt bonded to you. I'll bet anything that if your wife was more bonded to you she would be bothered by you talking about your sex life with another woman. And even if not, I can tell you from the experiences people have seen here that it's not safe!
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me. She apologized for it. We came to the conclusion that neither one of is happy because the effort is not being made once again. The effort is specifically about spending time together. We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.
Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.
Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.
Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.
So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!
When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are
never going to be helpful.
If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.
The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.
Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.
Performance, feedback, revision.
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know.
You DO know. It felt good.
No not really, this friend of my wife's has been that way as long as I've known her. She doesn't appeal to me in the slightest bit, and no it didn't feel good. Nevertheless it was inappropriate.
Not buying it. You wouldn't have talked to her about your sex life if you didn't get something out of it.
Please answer my questions:
Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?
Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?
Please answer my questions:
Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?
Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?
Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another. No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse. It just happens so we agreed that the absolute best thing we can do for each other is to schedule and spend time together. We came up with other couples we know and there is a direct correlation between UA time and a healthy marriage. In other words, we've seen it in our own marriage when done properly and we've seen it in other couples. This is our plan and we never should have gotten lazy about it in the first place.
Side note. Her best friend and I were joking around about kids and stuff and how life is tough. She made some sexual innuendo to which I replied, "I don't get laid anymore," to which she replied, "it's your own damn fault" and walked away.
If you are interested in protecting your marriage, why in the name of Christ would you have such a discussion? If a woman who isn't your wife makes sexual innuendo towards you ... why continue the discussion? And to tell her about your sex life?
I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. We had a long chat this morning and although the flirtations are not appropriate, it was really the notion that I spent much of the party by myself with our baby while my wife visited with her friends that bothered me. She apologized for it. We came to the conclusion that neither one of is happy because the effort is not being made once again. The effort is specifically about spending time together. We agreed to be selfish about time alone with each other and both feel that if we accomplish that most other things will fall in line. It worked before and it will again.
Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.
Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.
Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.
So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!
When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are
never going to be helpful.
If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.
The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.
Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.
Performance, feedback, revision.
The third child has taken it's toll on our marriage. We did not have the tools to deal with it as we do now. It is still a strain and frankly a pain, but it doesn't mean we can't both make a conscious decision to change our behavior. There is no love at first site nonsense. We fell in love because we spent a lot of time together. We fell out of love because we stopped spending a lot of time together. It can't get any more simple than that. In the past I wouldn't speak up when we didn't stick to a plan to spend time together but that won't happen anymore. If I need to be the one to speak up about it then I will, because the current path we are on can only lead to two outcomes, infidelity or divorce. Neither of those options is acceptable to either one of us.
Please answer my questions:
Have you read about Extraordinary Precautions?
Does Grace know about the sexual innuendo between you and that woman?
Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another.
Where were your EPs at the party, then?
It doesn't matter if you were "threatened" by it. Some things are dangerous even if you do not feel "threatened."
What are you two going to do differently so that these things do not happen again? It will take more than just spending time together ...
No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse.
Which is exactly why EPs are so important.
Hill, I am going to relate to you a tad bit here, but first things first; don't get nuts about suspicions and confrontations on possible adultery! If you have total transparency you monitor, and that is it.
Now, the situation you find yourself in was where my marriage was after our second DD was born, and it peaked when she was about 2.
Because I failed to act, this continued for 6 years, until I finally withdrew and gave up - of course LB's didn't work, and probably because of whatever LB's were tossed out, other attempts were also rebuked.
So, what I can say is this; don't fall off the path!
When you are struggling to claw your way out of withdrawal, or out of conflict friends, work, extended family - those events are never going to be helpful.
If you are not getting your base UA time, they are going to be downright destructive.
The base from which all other things gain importance is your marriage, period. Less than optimal function in your marriage will; stress your friendships, stress your family relationships, and effect your work.
Start scheduling that UA time, if you have do, redo the dang Q's again. And again.
Performance, feedback, revision.
The third child has taken it's toll on our marriage. We did not have the tools to deal with it as we do now. It is still a strain and frankly a pain, but it doesn't mean we can't both make a conscious decision to change our behavior. There is no love at first site nonsense. We fell in love because we spent a lot of time together. We fell out of love because we stopped spending a lot of time together. It can't get any more simple than that. In the past I wouldn't speak up when we didn't stick to a plan to spend time together but that won't happen anymore. If I need to be the one to speak up about it then I will, because the current path we are on can only lead to two outcomes, infidelity or divorce. Neither of those options is acceptable to either one of us. [/quote]
And this, sir, is an important acknowledgment.
Step two is being the motivator without resorting to LB's.
I know you are capable brother, so refer to the quicklist I have posted to you before. That is your go-to at crisis points!
What are my wife's top 3 EN's?
How can I better meet them?
What are my worst 3 LB's?
How can I eliminate them?
How can we meet our weekly UA goal?
Schedule it!
Markos is a good example of someone who has very strong boundaries .... Markos, would you respond to woman who is making sexual innuendos to you by telling her that you don't get laid anymore?
Hilltopper, flirtation outside of marriage is more than just inappropriate. I don't care if either of you feel threatened. Flirtation is downright dangerous. When you allow yourself to flirt with those outside your marriage, it doesn't matter how much time you and your wife spend together. It doesn't matter how good she is meeting your EN. People in GOOD marriages, with ALL their EN met by their spouse STILL have affairs. And they have the affairs WITH people they normally wouldn't find attractive! You must protect your marriage with EPs.
Neither of you should ever allow yourself to flirt again.
Yes she knows and again that is just how she is. Neither one of us were threatened by it. We know all about EP. What we agreed is that despite us both promising each other and ourselves that we'd never cheat on each other, is that things happen when needs are met by another. No one goes into it making a conscious decision to betray a spouse. It just happens so we agreed that the absolute best thing we can do for each other is to schedule and spend time together. We came up with other couples we know and there is a direct correlation between UA time and a healthy marriage. In other words, we've seen it in our own marriage when done properly and we've seen it in other couples. This is our plan and we never should have gotten lazy about it in the first place.
HT, like the others, I am pretty concerned about what happened at this party.
And now I am even more concerned after reading this type of doubletalk, excuse-making post as the one above.
If you KNOW about EPs and still didn't use them...and aren't that upset with each other for crossing the line...this tells me that you both don't REALLY think the other (or yourself) is at risk for an affair, which actually puts you at the MOST risk for having an affair.
And the ANSWER when you both cross the line isn't: "We have slipped up with UA time!" Oh dear.
What you should be saying is, What steps do we take to eliminate independent behavior and make sure our love banks are closed to members of the opposite sex?
Sexymamabear writes it best when she says that EPs are the cornerstone to the MB program in terms of affair-proofing your marriage...because there WILL BE times when you aren't meeting each other's needs.
So here's a EP plan for you BOTH:
No flirting with members of the opposite sex
No intimate conversation with members of the opposite sex
No sexual innuendo with members of the opposite sex
No affection (kissing, even a peck on the lips) with members of the opposite sex
If you two are going to functions where you will be drinking (lowered inhibition), no baby and you STAY TOGETHER.
And I will add: I don't think you two should be going to the gym without each other. Affairs start at gyms and I think this is risky for even a healthy marriage. You two shouldn't be taking these types of risks. Most gyms have babysitting, you should be going TOGETHER even if you don't work out together.
Hilltopper,
Just wondering how everything is going? I kept up with your thread for a long time. Give us an update.
PTH
Prisca,I'm sorry, I don't understand this comment.
"It doesn't matter how good she is meeting your EN. People in GOOD marriages, with ALL their EN met by their spouse STILL have affairs."
Then what is the point of meeting EN?
Then what is the point of meeting EN?
To fall in love and have a wonderfully romantic, fulfilling marriage.
You don't affair proof your marriage by meeting EN. You affair proof your marriage by taking Extraordinary Precautions and creating strong boundaries.
Hilltopper,
Just wondering how everything is going? I kept up with your thread for a long time. Give us an update.
PTH
Things are not good, at least not for me. I keep thinking after this long that my wife will come around, see me leading by example, and eventually make a stronger effort to meet my needs. I go through ups and downs, right now I'm in a down. When my Taker is getting tired of being kicked around I want to shut down and not do anything to meet her needs in return. Here is what I believe the crux of the problem is for me in my situation:
1. My wife for whatever reason is the type of person that has no problem asking for anything she wants. Rejection doesn't bother her, so she'll ask the same thing of me or of anyone numerous times and not think anything of it.
2. I am the opposite of my wife. I don't want to trouble people and and somewhat of a minimalist. I don't like rejection and it makes me want to give up after asking for something I need from my wife.
3. If I
do get a meed met, such as SF, my wife makes sure to let me know how "lucky" I am for having it met. When I do ask for things often times my wife just can't say no, she instead has to give me all the reasons why. My wife has a "go to" list for all of my needs so there is a perfectly good reason(in her mind not mine) why a need can't be met.
So there it is. I've been doing MB for over a year now I believe and this is the position I'm in. I'm unhappy and I don't see my unhappiness changing by my wife just "coming around" someday.
Topper,
I have read and watched you change over a long course of time. I give you a bunch of credit. I have also seen your wife shut down on here and so it leads me to believe that she has done so at home as well.
I would NOT continue to be in a one sided marriage. My ww acted a great deal like yours up to when she started her 1st affair. No matter what I did I could not make her happy, no matter what!
I truly believe their are just some people that "CHOOSE" that mind set!
I have been through hell and back because of her actions and I will tell you everyday it gets better and now I look back and am happy that I am away from her daily drama and the hell she constantly put me through.
I think she needs to know that you will not be in a marriage in which needs are not being met!
Just my .02
I think she needs to know that you will not be in a marriage in which needs are not being met!
You know, Dr. Harley just really does not advocate this approach that often for men. I am betting Hilltopper has already said it.
At this point, I don't think there is much else to say, but there is much more to do. Her emotional needs are not being met, or she would be coming around.
Hilltopper is going to have to go first meeting her needs -- possibly for quite some time. He hasn't been able to get her involved in UA time, so I am betting the approach to take is going to go in the direction of some other emotional needs before she will feel interested in the more intimate needs.
I know you are right Markos but what I don't understand is that Topper has made a commitment to work on his marriage and he has shown progress. Why does his wife regress when he has shown the necessary actions?
I know I worked harder in recovery when my wife showed me that she too was going to work at it.
Does her love bank have to be full for her to try and meet his needs?? Just confused on my end I guess.
Prisca,I'm sorry, I don't understand this comment.
"It doesn't matter how good she is meeting your EN. People in GOOD marriages, with ALL their EN met by their spouse STILL have affairs."
Then what is the point of meeting EN?
You have to protect your boundaries. It is poor boundaries with opposite sex.
I know you are right Markos but what I don't understand is that Topper has made a commitment to work on his marriage and he has shown progress. Why does his wife regress when he has shown the necessary actions?
The fact is that the real measure of whether Hilltopper has done the job or not is his wife. And it's a part of his wife that's not even under her conscious control. It's her Love Bank. For whatever reason, her love bank has decided that he has some big hurdles to get over. But these hurdles are not infinite, they are reachable, and getting over them is going to be good for Hilltopper himself, and his wife, and his children, and his marriage.
I know I worked harder in recovery when my wife showed me that she too was going to work at it.
Well, yes, that would be motivating to anybody! But that is not the case here, and she is not motivated to do that at this point in time. We can help encourage him to keep going forward even when he is demotivated, to keep at it long enough to finally break through.
Does her love bank have to be full for her to try and meet his needs?? Just confused on my end I guess.
None of us can control her or decide that for her.
But when her love bank is full, she will want to meet his needs!
Listen to what Dr. Harley told Steve, whose wife is not motivated to work on their marriage:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3324http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3325http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3326http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3327You can also listen to what Dr. Harley told me:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3332http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3333http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3334
Dr. Harley told Steve that particular information because she was a WW and had been for 15 months.
In HNHN Dr. Harley suggests a man can go two years in Plan A and if that doesn't work, then go to Plan B.
This differs from an affair. In an active affair the man goes six months in Plan A and then 18 months in Plan B.
I know you are right Markos but what I don't understand is that Topper has made a commitment to work on his marriage and he has shown progress. Why does his wife regress when he has shown the necessary actions?
The fact is that the real measure of whether Hilltopper has done the job or not is his wife. And it's a part of his wife that's not even under her conscious control. It's her Love Bank. For whatever reason, her love bank has decided that he has some big hurdles to get over. But these hurdles are not infinite, they are reachable, and getting over them is going to be good for Hilltopper himself, and his wife, and his children, and his marriage.
I know I worked harder in recovery when my wife showed me that she too was going to work at it.
Well, yes, that would be motivating to anybody! But that is not the case here, and she is not motivated to do that at this point in time. We can help encourage him to keep going forward even when he is demotivated, to keep at it long enough to finally break through.
Does her love bank have to be full for her to try and meet his needs?? Just confused on my end I guess.
None of us can control her or decide that for her.
But when her love bank is full, she will want to meet his needs!
Listen to what Dr. Harley told Steve, whose wife is not motivated to work on their marriage:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3324http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3325http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3326http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3327You can also listen to what Dr. Harley told me:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3332http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3333http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3334My wife I would argue is not in withdrawal. I would rather argue that she is enjoying me meeting her needs and not having to reciprocate.
I would also argue that my wife has not regressed, she has merely remained the same. It is my fault for not asking for my needs to be met, I would prefer that she just meet them without me asking, but that is not realistic. It may seem easy for many of you here to ask for what you want but not me. I think it is a combination of my hating rejection and my wife answering my attempts with sarcasm, DJs, and redirects.
I would also argue that my wife is consumed with making herself feel good first and foremost. Meeting my needs doesn't make her feel good so she doesn't do it. It can be explained with this mentality. I go to gym, get skinny, look good but my wife doesn't say anything nor compliment me. Complimenting me doesn't make her feel good, in fact it makes her feel bad about herself, so she doesn't do it. Does that make sense?
Hill, sorry to hear things aren't going well.
I'd encourage you to write into the radio show about this.
What about trying the online program or phone coaching?
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?
Be sure to listen to that show with Steve. What Dr. Harley says about the romantic love threshold being "gradual" versus "sudden" is very important.
I strongly suspect that you are "asking" for your needs to be met by making demands.
You are also DJing her by psychoanalyzing her.
A year later, and you are still lovebusting her. Why would you expect the program to work?
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?
How would you feel about dropping the kids off at the inlaws and going for a run with me Saturday morning?
Hill ... I am sorry things are not going well for you, or at least not getting better. Are you managing to get in 15hrs a week of UA? I know i am not consistantly .. but when my wife and I do, it sure makes a difference. We recently had a huge blow out in the family (you can see my thread if you like) and it took a huge toll on my wife and I .. almost regressed us back to a horrible state .. doesnt take much time at all to make massive LB withdrawls to make things ugly again. The UA is SUPER important .. once we got back on track with our UA things started to turn around again to the positive.
Make sure to take notice of whatever is distracting you from eachother and try to eliminate those things or get through them as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Does your wife still think MB is a good tool? Does she ever mention MB materials on certain things? Is there anything she consistantly complains about? and HOw are things going for avoiding Love Busters? Some times its not necessarily that your not getting in enough UA time too .. sometimes the UA time is being misused and the love busters drain out the love units that are deposited which makes it seem like all efforts to be romantic are futile which in turn sends you both into conflict .. or withdrawl very quickly ... and remember .. each time those nasty lovebusters come out on top again ... its like going back to day 1 or starting your love bank account in neutral .. or in the red on an overdraft. Gotta pay those dues! .. and stay out of "debt". Its hard ... i struggle with this sometimes still. Not so much as I used to .. but once in a while we slip into our old ways and realize my wife and I are back into conflict or withdrawl again and have to work at it to build each other back up.
Stay the path my friend. Avoid ALL lovebusters ... and when they pop in on you remember your back at the beginning again.
You can do it! .. just keep posting and we will hand out the 2x4's as necessary. :P
MNG
I strongly suspect that you are "asking" for your needs to be met by making demands.
You are also DJing her by psychoanalyzing her.
A year later, and you are still lovebusting her. Why would you expect the program to work?
This is what I love about you Prisca, you always know what I'm thinking. I admit to the DJs, not to the demands. I come here with DJs to get some feedback on what I should do, not redirects on how poorly I MUST be doing with the MB program. Isn't it possible my wife just isn't willing to do this? If I say that are you gonna say then I must be trying to let myself off the hook? I don't want sympathy, I want a great marriage, but despite my efforts it eludes me.
This is why Dr. Harley talks about Plan B.
The love you have for her at the moment is draining. If she is engaging in IB and DJ herself, then your bank is taking a hit.
Dr. Harley suggests a man can only take this up to two years, and then you must go into Plan B.
Where is your love bank with her today? Are you feeling it approach zero?
It might be time to sit down and discuss how you honestly feel with her. If she makes the environment hostile while you speak the truth, kindly remove yourself and then put your thoughts in a letter.
She needs to know her behavior is causing you to lose your love and this may result in divorce.
Explain to her how much you enjoy meeting her needs, and ask her why she doesn't think you are admirable. Ask her if there is anything you are doing to cause her unhappiness. Explain to her how some of her behaviors are causing you unhappiness.
Tough
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.
Hill ... I am sorry things are not going well for you, or at least not getting better. Are you managing to get in 15hrs a week of UA? I know i am not consistantly .. but when my wife and I do, it sure makes a difference. We recently had a huge blow out in the family (you can see my thread if you like) and it took a huge toll on my wife and I .. almost regressed us back to a horrible state .. doesnt take much time at all to make massive LB withdrawls to make things ugly again. The UA is SUPER important .. once we got back on track with our UA things started to turn around again to the positive.
Make sure to take notice of whatever is distracting you from eachother and try to eliminate those things or get through them as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Does your wife still think MB is a good tool? Does she ever mention MB materials on certain things? Is there anything she consistantly complains about? and HOw are things going for avoiding Love Busters? Some times its not necessarily that your not getting in enough UA time too .. sometimes the UA time is being misused and the love busters drain out the love units that are deposited which makes it seem like all efforts to be romantic are futile which in turn sends you both into conflict .. or withdrawl very quickly ... and remember .. each time those nasty lovebusters come out on top again ... its like going back to day 1 or starting your love bank account in neutral .. or in the red on an overdraft. Gotta pay those dues! .. and stay out of "debt". Its hard ... i struggle with this sometimes still. Not so much as I used to .. but once in a while we slip into our old ways and realize my wife and I are back into conflict or withdrawl again and have to work at it to build each other back up.
Stay the path my friend. Avoid ALL lovebusters ... and when they pop in on you remember your back at the beginning again.
You can do it! .. just keep posting and we will hand out the 2x4's as necessary. :P
MNG
Its funny you mentioned it. I sent my wife a text saying that from my perspective UA time is the only thing that truly impacts a marriage. I asked her some questions about how she would like me to "plan" things to which she ignored. My wife doesn't answer questions and Prisca I won't judge to the why that is.
My wife is not a fan of MB. If I suggest workbook she half agrees but never takes action. She hates the forum and thinks it is the root of all evil. The only consistent LB on my part which is about once every few months is me holding in my feelings and not telling her right away if I'm not happy.
This is why Dr. Harley talks about Plan B.
The love you have for her at the moment is draining. If she is engaging in IB and DJ herself, then your bank is taking a hit.
Dr. Harley suggests a man can only take this up to two years, and then you must go into Plan B.
Where is your love bank with her today? Are you feeling it approach zero?
It might be time to sit down and discuss how you honestly feel with her. If she makes the environment hostile while you speak the truth, kindly remove yourself and then put your thoughts in a letter.
She needs to know her behavior is causing you to lose your love and this may result in divorce.
Explain to her how much you enjoy meeting her needs, and ask her why she doesn't think you are admirable. Ask her if there is anything you are doing to cause her unhappiness. Explain to her how some of her behaviors are causing you unhappiness.
Tough
We've been through this so many times. I've changed so much as a person and in our marriage, in fact how I view life. I'm different with people I work with, my family, friends, etc. I don't know where my love bank is, all I know is that I'm back to out of energy again and feel like throwing my hands up.
As far as considering Plan B, I just can't envision it, or at least right now. My life ain't all that bad all things considered. I hate to bring up my wife's family again, and I'd never do it in front of her, but the truth is no one has cracked her mother after 60+ years so I don't see things on my side. Her Dad lives a crappy life with that lady and just keeps the peace to get by every day. My situation isn't nearly that bad so I figure I have more than two years to see if I can get her to adjust just a little.
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?
How would you feel about dropping the kids off at the inlaws and going for a run with me Saturday morning?
And how does she respond?
Hill ... I am sorry things are not going well for you, or at least not getting better. Are you managing to get in 15hrs a week of UA? I know i am not consistantly .. but when my wife and I do, it sure makes a difference. We recently had a huge blow out in the family (you can see my thread if you like) and it took a huge toll on my wife and I .. almost regressed us back to a horrible state .. doesnt take much time at all to make massive LB withdrawls to make things ugly again. The UA is SUPER important .. once we got back on track with our UA things started to turn around again to the positive.
My understanding is that Hilltopper's wife has not been enthusiastic about spending 15 hours together.
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?
How would you feel about dropping the kids off at the inlaws and going for a run with me Saturday morning?
And how does she respond?
She actually said it sounded fun but that she didn't want to "waste" the use of her parents time in place of other babysitting opportunities. Those other opportunities all involved activities with other friends, not one on one time.
Hill ... I am sorry things are not going well for you, or at least not getting better. Are you managing to get in 15hrs a week of UA? I know i am not consistantly .. but when my wife and I do, it sure makes a difference. We recently had a huge blow out in the family (you can see my thread if you like) and it took a huge toll on my wife and I .. almost regressed us back to a horrible state .. doesnt take much time at all to make massive LB withdrawls to make things ugly again. The UA is SUPER important .. once we got back on track with our UA things started to turn around again to the positive.
My understanding is that Hilltopper's wife has not been enthusiastic about spending 15 hours together.
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more. On the flip side through many encounters and suggestions she has made it clear she doesn't want for me to plan for sitters and schedules.
I strongly suspect that you are "asking" for your needs to be met by making demands.
You are also DJing her by psychoanalyzing her.
A year later, and you are still lovebusting her. Why would you expect the program to work?
This is what I love about you Prisca, you always know what I'm thinking. I admit to the DJs, not to the demands. I come here with DJs to get some feedback on what I should do, not redirects on how poorly I MUST be doing with the MB program. Isn't it possible my wife just isn't willing to do this? If I say that are you gonna say then I must be trying to let myself off the hook? I don't want sympathy, I want a great marriage, but despite my efforts it eludes me.
I suggest you stop being defensive and start listening. If you're continuing to lovebust your wife, you are not following the program. You can get in a huff about that, or you can do something about it.
She knows enough about the program to know that you can control your lovebusting. When you lovebust, you sabotage your own efforts.
It is still very likely that she perceives your requests as demands. Whether you intend it or not.
Now, stop being defensive, okay?
We're all here to help.
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.
In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.
Can you give us an example of how you ask for your needs to be met?
How would you feel about dropping the kids off at the inlaws and going for a run with me Saturday morning?
And how does she respond?
She actually said it sounded fun but that she didn't want to "waste" the use of her parents time in place of other babysitting opportunities. Those other opportunities all involved activities with other friends, not one on one time.
Ah, okay. So to her, she would like to engage in group events with you, and she wants the babysitting kept for that ... and what kind of alone time together does she want to have with you?
I don't know where my love bank is, all I know is that I'm back to out of energy again and feel like throwing my hands up.
You are in a
motivational swamp.
The thing is, if you keep at this, and if you continue to refine and improve your approach, she really will fall in love with you. That will make all the difference in the world. There will appear to be almost no improvement in that for a long time, but there will be a sudden, sudden change. Dr. Harley said he has men wonder if their wives suddenly started taking hormones or something. And it goes on for a few days, and then they dip below the threshold again, and it goes away. But if they keep at the plan, their wives come back up above the threshold again, longer this time, and in this way the marriage improves in "fits and starts" until it is good all the time.
This has been what I have been seeing in my marriage for a year. There have been some truly awful times, and I have also seen what those times are like above the threshold. Every time we go back below that threshold I get just a little bit more information about how to keep moving up, not down. (I also get stuck in motivational swamps!)
Did you listen to that call from Oct 25, with Steve?
I think she enjoys dinner with me, but also loves to be very social. I think I am an acceptable companion for her but not her favorite. Again I am not her priority and so I need to figure out better ways to become that. Her friends are a priority, obviously the kids, the house, and going to the gym. I feel I am probably #5 behind those four items.
She frequently brings up the past when we get in any serious discussions about our marriage. I don't know man, I'm so emotionally drained and exhausted it is hard to focus. How about we just go simple question and answer right now for some clarity because right now I have none.
I don't know where my love bank is, all I know is that I'm back to out of energy again and feel like throwing my hands up.
You are in a
motivational swamp.
The thing is, if you keep at this, and if you continue to refine and improve your approach, she really will fall in love with you. That will make all the difference in the world. There will appear to be almost no improvement in that for a long time, but there will be a sudden, sudden change. Dr. Harley said he has men wonder if their wives suddenly started taking hormones or something. And it goes on for a few days, and then they dip below the threshold again, and it goes away. But if they keep at the plan, their wives come back up above the threshold again, longer this time, and in this way the marriage improves in "fits and starts" until it is good all the time.
This has been what I have been seeing in my marriage for a year. There have been some truly awful times, and I have also seen what those times are like above the threshold. Every time we go back below that threshold I get just a little bit more information about how to keep moving up, not down. (I also get stuck in motivational swamps!)
Did you listen to that call from Oct 25, with Steve?
It is hard to take information, usually hurtful, consider the unfairness of it all, and then suck it up anyways day after day. I think I listened to the call, email me the link if you can.
Its funny you mentioned it. I sent my wife a text saying that from my perspective UA time is the only thing that truly impacts a marriage.
Good try. Worded respectfully and nonjudgmentally.
But she probably still perceived it as an attempt to "educate her." And even if she didn't, it probably still didn't go anywhere.
You probably can't convince her to engage in UA time. But you may be able to invite her to spend time with you alone in conversation/recreation/affection/and/or/SF, and if you make that time wonderful for her, that will make Love Bank deposits and bring you two back together.
Some people hear the Marriage Builders program, see how rational it is, commit to it, and follow it until they succeed.
Other people are not convinced how rational it is. But even if they are not, if you can get them to do these things, it will work anyway, even if they do not buy into the program at first.
Grace does not seem to be buying into the program. Further attempts to talk to her about it, at the moment, are probably going to push her away.
The only option I see you have is to respond to her complaints/requests in the most positive way possible, not try to complain to her or persuade her of anything at this point, and become her partner in solving the problems that she faces in life.
Plan A does not require anything from her.
It is hard to take information, usually hurtful, consider the unfairness of it all, and then suck it up anyways day after day.
Tell me about it!
Listen, though, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. She will be motivated to meet your needs and to stop being disrespectful when she passes that romantic love threshold. Don't suck it up. Just evaluate your options. You haven't been able to persuade her of the value of this program or persuade her to be more respectful. She's just not motivated. How are you going to motivate her? She's not going to be motivated by a discussion about it. She hasn't so far, and that's not going to change.
We can help you to improve your Plan A so that you finally get through. We can also help motivate you to keep Plan A'ing even when you feel like going into Plan DJ/AO/SD.
I think she enjoys dinner with me, but also loves to be very social. I think I am an acceptable companion for her but not her favorite. Again I am not her priority and so I need to figure out better ways to become that. Her friends are a priority, obviously the kids, the house, and going to the gym. I feel I am probably #5 behind those four items.
That sucks.
The kids, the house, and the gym are all love bank deposit opportunities for you. Is she open to doing things with you and the kids? Does she want you to plan family activities?
What obstacles are there at the moment to you changing your schedule to go to the gym with her?
The house -- what does she need done on the house? Is it consuming her, bugging her, in the way, she's thinking about that instead of about you and the marriage? How much of it can you handle?
She frequently brings up the past when we get in any serious discussions about our marriage.
This also sucks. It's a big emotional minefield, and it's not going to be easy to navigate, and even though she absolutely should not do this, you're not going to be able to stop her or persuade her to stop.
So ...
When she does this, if at all possible, begin your answer with "You're right." Tell her she's right, tell her why she's right, and then gently take the conversation back toward the future.
"You are right, Honey. I did promise to you that I was going to clean that room, and I haven't done it. I was supposed to take care of the garage for you Saturday, but would you rather I take care of this room?"
"You're right, Honey. I was very angry and disrespectful to you that day. What do you need from me to recover and to show you that it will not happen again?"
There's a lot in older threads in the SAA forum on how a wayward spouse (particularly a WH) can lovingly handle situations where the betrayed spouse does not follow the "do not dwell on mistakes of the past" rule. You and I are not wayward, but I have found the suggestions helpful.
Remember that when something upsets your wife, like a memory of the past, she has much less capacity to just "block it out" than you do, by virtue of the fact that her brain is wired differently. This is the same reason why women, even women in love, can typically list many annoying habits on the part of their husbands, but the husbands will typically see very few in their wives.
Its funny you mentioned it. I sent my wife a text saying that from my perspective UA time is the only thing that truly impacts a marriage.
Good try. Worded respectfully and nonjudgmentally.
But she probably still perceived it as an attempt to "educate her."
And trying to educate your spouse is a DJ, even if you try to be respectful about it.
Markos used to say similar things to me when I wasn't interested in MB. All it did was drain his account in my Lovebank.
Also remember, Hilltopper, that she can read what ever you post here. So those DJs you make here on the board may not be to her face, but when she reads them, it will drain your account in her lovebank as easily as if you had said them to her.
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.
In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.
He stated last week in the call with Steve men can handle two years, and then they should look at Plan B. A neglected man cannot chase his wife forever. There has to be some choices for the husband. Two years of no needs being met ususally puts the LB close to zero. He has to protect his bank.
I know it is very rare for men, but it does happen.
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve
(Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.
He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation
for men.If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.
And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve
(Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.
He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation
for men.If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.
And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.
Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.
Okay Prisca that makes no sense. Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
If Hilltopper's wife cannot come around in a two year timeframe, then he needs to do something otherwise the situation turns into unconditional love.
If you read unconditional love (even though it is Ellen's letter) he makes the topic general for both husbands and wives.
Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
Hilltopper any chance you can call into the radio show?
Tough
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve
(Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.
He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation
for men.If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.
And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.
Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.
I continue to pray for you guys, Hilltopper, but I'm fearful that if you guys had a talk and she is crying that the direction you go from here may not be good. She may begin to feel trapped that she "has" to do whatever it is you are asking for. I can tell you from experience it is so much better to win over her emotions first such that she wants to make you happy. Talks reach her logic; meeting emotional needs reach her emotions.
Please post an update and let us know what's happening now, okay?
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.
In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.
Yes. This is spelled out in
When to call it quits, part 3 Even if an affair is not ongoing, a separation can lead to one. One of my cardinal rules to prevent an affair is to avoid being separated overnight. A deliberate separation increases the risk of an affair, and can turn a difficult marriage into a disaster.
There are also legal considerations. If a husband separates from his family, he can be accused of abandoning his children. If the marriage ends in divorce, he risks losing the right to joint custody. So an attorney should always be consulted before separating. When a woman wants to separate, she does not have the same legal problems because most courts let her stay in the home with her children. It's the husband who must leave.
If the husband chooses to separate, his children often feel that he's left them. It makes it very difficult for him to explain why he's taking such a drastic step, especially if sex is the problem. But if a wife asks him to leave, the children are still with her. She doesn't need to do as much explaining.
When a husband has children in the home, the risks and problems of separation often outweigh the rewards. After discussing the pros and cons of a separation because of sexual problems, most husbands I've counseled decide not to separate, and I go back to work trying to convince their wives to make love to them. There are three female coaches on our staff and I lean heavily on their instincts and persuasive skills when trying to address this problem.
Believe me, I've given this issue a lot of thought in the last few years. I'm fortunate in that my wife (mostly) embraces MB, and I trust that she is doing what she can within the limits of our current circumstances.
Hill - would your W consider speaking with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers? She got through to my W and might be able to help yours...just a thought.
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me
Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?
Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.
Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."
Why would he have to leave his home? If she is not meeting his needs for more than two years, then I would make her leave, and let her know he will be filing for sole custody.
The key here is to understand that after a long period (usually 2 years) a man can no longer do Plan A. That isn't fair to Hill or his wife or the children.
Then you have an unconditional love situation, and that will drain all his love for her over time.
Hill still has plenty of time until the two year mark. He should be supported for staying committed, and he should also be supported if he ultimately decides to throw in the towel.
In the meantime, Hill should continue on Plan A and work with his wife by opening up commuication.
If the environment isn't friendly for his wife to share her feelings O&H, then Hill should work to make her feel safe so she can be O&H.
If Mrs. Hill needs more affection to open up SF, then Hill should look at more affection.
If Mrs. Hill needs more FC with the kids, then Hill should figure out how to FC with the kids more.
At the same time if Mr. Hill is doing that, then Mrs. Hill should meet his needs.
Mr. Hill is your wife a super duper strong affection wife? Just like some men need admiration beyond the normal threshold, some women need affection beyond the normal threshold.
It maybe a simple tweeking to the needs to get her to respond. Let's see if we can help him get that tweek.
Tough,
Hilltopper should only consider Plan B under the direct counsel of Dr. Harley, not this board. You are pushing for something that Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise men to do.
Yes, unconditional love is not the goal. But Dr. Harley doesn't advise men to leave in order to escape that unconditional love. Hilltopper needs to be concentrating on winning his wife back. He is not approaching any limit here. Plan B is a dangerous distraction in this case.
I listened to the radio call with Markos. What I got from it is that men may just need to be prepared to not have their emotional needs met for a long time, because it is worse to force a reluctant wife to participate in something. Dr. Harley said one should operate on a presumption of "good faith" that the reluctant spouse does want to meet your needs. What was unstated was that it may take a long time for this to actually manifest, particularly if the wife is (a) quite different from the husband emotionally (b) feeling trapped and (c) reacting to AOs or other LBs.
Of course, separation and divorce are hardly easy alternatives.
Tough,
Hilltopper should only consider Plan B under the direct counsel of Dr. Harley, not this board. You are pushing for something that Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise men to do.
Yes, unconditional love is not the goal. But Dr. Harley doesn't advise men to leave in order to escape that unconditional love. Hilltopper needs to be concentrating on winning his wife back. He is not approaching any limit here. Plan B is a dangerous distraction in this case.
I have never once advised him to leave. Plan B isn't about leaving or divorce, and never had I said for him to leave his home. I also said he has plenty of time still left in Plan A. I was discussing that Plan B could be an option down the road because he deserves to have his needs met as well.
Who are we to tell this man how long he should go or if his love bank is done. We aren't in that position. We are in the process of marriage building, and a one-sided marriage does nobody any good. He will know when his love bank is nearing zero. Creating a marriage that is unconditional love doesn't do him any good either.
What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!
Please don't put words in my mouth folks. I never told him to leave or think about leaving. I suggested he look at his life if this doesn't turn around. What does he want for his life?
He can only control himself. This site has never been saving all marriages. The last thing is a man completely drained of his love. Will his boundaries stick?
One thing to mention is that they have a recently new born. Once the baby gets a bit older .. things WILL get easier. If he can just keep doing a good plan A and stop LB'ing ... I am sure his wife would respond in a better manner once she is not exasperated with over touching by the baby.
Hill .. how did that "talk" go? I know your wife cried .. but was it productive? Hopefully you avoided LB'ing behaviour and rationally conversed about whatever the convo was about.
Praying for you two..
MNG
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more.
This is how you can get things back on track.
What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!
Be very careful here Tough. Remember, affairs happen not because someone's ENs aren't being met, but because they have weak boundaries around members of the opposite sex, allowing that person to meet ENs which only their spouse should be meeting.
I see the main problem here is that Grace is most likely in a state of withdrawal about her marriage, and she will need to be brought back to intimacy. It CAN be done.
I think we also need to be very careful about saying that when the infant is older, things will get better. That is not always the case. But it does bring up other factors that should be considered. Grace is most likely exhausted, and the hormone shifting is harder on some.
I think that the right thing for Hill to do is exactly what Markos has stated. Also, getting on the phone with the Harleys would do wonders for this marriage.
I know that Scotty - look down and you will see me discuss his bounaries.
When your love bank goes low you are at an increased risk for an affair. That is what I am stating.
I have never once advised him to leave. Plan B isn't about leaving or divorce, and never had I said for him to leave his home.
Plan B IS leaving. If he were to go to Plan B, meaning he cut off all contact with her whatsoever, she will most definitely feel like he left her.
I also said he has plenty of time still left in Plan A. I was discussing that Plan B could be an option down the road because he deserves to have his needs met as well.
And I am saying that
Dr. Harley does not advise Plan B for a man who is not in an affair situation. Who are we to tell this man how long he should go or if his love bank is done.
It's not US telling him that. It's Dr. HARLEY.
We aren't in that position. We are in the process of marriage building, and a one-sided marriage does nobody any good. He will know when his love bank is nearing zero. Creating a marriage that is unconditional love doesn't do him any good either.
Nobody's arguing with that.
What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!
That is not why Dr. Harley recommends Plan B. He actually says that
separation puts a man more at risk for an affair.
The solution to affair proofing is boundaries. Plan B has nothing to do with it.
Please don't put words in my mouth folks. I never told him to leave or think about leaving. I suggested he look at his life if this doesn't turn around. What does he want for his life?
Plan B is essentially leaving. Plan B isn't a tool to save marriages. It is a tool to protect the betrayed spouse in an affair situation. Dr. Harley says he
sometimes recommends that a
neglected woman separate and go to Plan B. He RARELY recommends that for a neglected man.
If you disagree with Dr. Harley's position on this, might I recommend you talk it over with him before continuing to suggest to a neglected man (NOT a BS) to consider Plan B?
He can only control himself. This site has never been saving all marriages. The last thing is a man completely drained of his love. Will his boundaries stick?
If they don't stick, it won't be because of Grace.
I completely disagree Prisca. Dr. Harley does suggest after an extended timeframe usually two years or more for husbands, a spouse can demonstrate their needs should be met or Plan B, a husband can go into Plan B. He has said it before, and talked about it with Steve. The main goal of his program is to protect the lovebank. There isn't any other goal of MB except to make sure the lovebank stays at a certain level.
Why does a husband have to get into a neglected situation in the first place? How many BW are on SAA because a husband was neglected by them and had an affair? Thousands!!!
You are correct his boundaries will need to be air tight. Who wants to even get themselves into that state in the first place? I know I haven't had my needs met in 15 months. I am a house plant today because I do not want to risk anything. I tell you the first man that gives me attention, may send me over the edge. It is dangerous to get your lovebank to that level. Then temptation is hard to resist.
The goal is to maintain his love for his wife. Dr. Harley has never ever been about creating unconditional love. That is exactly what happens after years of neglect by a wife.
The rarity of a wife neglecting her husband after two years exist. With a good Plan A Hill can and will likely win her over. In the case he cannot - he should explain to her well in advance, I need these needs met by you. If that doesn't happen then I will look at a Plan B option.
A neglected man is at a great risk of an affair. He will have to air tight his boundaries. You know how difficult that is? Out on the SAA forum you read BH's who struggle constantly with their boundaries by not getting their needs met.
Plan B is discussed by Dr. Harley for neglect. It just so happens it is usually the case the wife is neglected. It can also be the case the husband is neglected.
Prisca I have every right to discuss Plan B with any neglected spouse. I am not going against Dr. Harley. I made it crystal clear to go at least two years or more in Plan a for a husband, or whatever Hill can do. What good does it do him if by the end of two years he has no love?
Then what happens at the end of two years and his LB is in the red and he doesn't even want to consider Plan B, just Plan D.
Yes - separation risks an affair and divorce. What does it matter if he has no more love for his wife?
Dr. Harley explains that in his unconditional love article. Which was based on a wife, but addressed to a neglected spouse.
Please stop trying to negate the advice I provide. This forum is about giving readers advice based on Dr. Harley, and I am basing my advice on how I understand the lovebank, affairs, and Plan B. I do not feel I am going against his principles, or in any means giving Hill false advice.
My only goal is to protect the love he has for his wife. I have no other motive. If Hill doesn't like the advice I give then he can use his own judgment and make his own decisions.
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve
(Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.
He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation
for men.If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.
And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.
Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.
I continue to pray for you guys, Hilltopper, but I'm fearful that if you guys had a talk and she is crying that the direction you go from here may not be good. She may begin to feel trapped that she "has" to do whatever it is you are asking for. I can tell you from experience it is so much better to win over her emotions first such that she wants to make you happy. Talks reach her logic; meeting emotional needs reach her emotions.
Please post an update and let us know what's happening now, okay?
Talk went well. She said she likes the new me, but that she got so used to doing her own thing without me because I was never interested in her. In other words she gave up on me long, long ago. That and she is incredibly worn out every with the kids and everything else that concerns her day to day. I was quite honest with her in my letter on how I feel. I'm quite scared to be honest that Plan B might have to come into play when I know that it shouldn't have to. The "reaching her emotions" part hit home and I'm trying to do that each day. Thanks for the prayers.
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.
In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.
Yes. This is spelled out in
When to call it quits, part 3 Even if an affair is not ongoing, a separation can lead to one. One of my cardinal rules to prevent an affair is to avoid being separated overnight. A deliberate separation increases the risk of an affair, and can turn a difficult marriage into a disaster.
There are also legal considerations. If a husband separates from his family, he can be accused of abandoning his children. If the marriage ends in divorce, he risks losing the right to joint custody. So an attorney should always be consulted before separating. When a woman wants to separate, she does not have the same legal problems because most courts let her stay in the home with her children. It's the husband who must leave.
If the husband chooses to separate, his children often feel that he's left them. It makes it very difficult for him to explain why he's taking such a drastic step, especially if sex is the problem. But if a wife asks him to leave, the children are still with her. She doesn't need to do as much explaining.
When a husband has children in the home, the risks and problems of separation often outweigh the rewards. After discussing the pros and cons of a separation because of sexual problems, most husbands I've counseled decide not to separate, and I go back to work trying to convince their wives to make love to them. There are three female coaches on our staff and I lean heavily on their instincts and persuasive skills when trying to address this problem.
Believe me, I've given this issue a lot of thought in the last few years. I'm fortunate in that my wife (mostly) embraces MB, and I trust that she is doing what she can within the limits of our current circumstances.
Hill - would your W consider speaking with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers? She got through to my W and might be able to help yours...just a thought.
No she won't.
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me
Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?
Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.
Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."
Plan A is perfection Prisca? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly asking. I am a man, we are all human, and I don't think Dr Harley would suggest that perfection is the only way to conduct Plan A?
Why would he have to leave his home? If she is not meeting his needs for more than two years, then I would make her leave, and let her know he will be filing for sole custody.
The key here is to understand that after a long period (usually 2 years) a man can no longer do Plan A. That isn't fair to Hill or his wife or the children.
Then you have an unconditional love situation, and that will drain all his love for her over time.
Hill still has plenty of time until the two year mark. He should be supported for staying committed, and he should also be supported if he ultimately decides to throw in the towel.
In the meantime, Hill should continue on Plan A and work with his wife by opening up commuication.
If the environment isn't friendly for his wife to share her feelings O&H, then Hill should work to make her feel safe so she can be O&H.
If Mrs. Hill needs more affection to open up SF, then Hill should look at more affection.
If Mrs. Hill needs more FC with the kids, then Hill should figure out how to FC with the kids more.
At the same time if Mr. Hill is doing that, then Mrs. Hill should meet his needs.
Mr. Hill is your wife a super duper strong affection wife? Just like some men need admiration beyond the normal threshold, some women need affection beyond the normal threshold.
It maybe a simple tweeking to the needs to get her to respond. Let's see if we can help him get that tweek.
If you read through our thread from beginning to end you'd find that I give and need affection more than she, she needs admiration more than I, etc. I was awful to her early on when we first started MB. I think she is having a hard time trusting that I won't be that guy again and I understand that. With that being said, I think a year is about all I can give before I move to Plan B.
I listened to the radio call with Markos. What I got from it is that men may just need to be prepared to not have their emotional needs met for a long time, because it is worse to force a reluctant wife to participate in something. Dr. Harley said one should operate on a presumption of "good faith" that the reluctant spouse does want to meet your needs. What was unstated was that it may take a long time for this to actually manifest, particularly if the wife is (a) quite different from the husband emotionally (b) feeling trapped and (c) reacting to AOs or other LBs.
Of course, separation and divorce are hardly easy alternatives.
Kerala,
Yes time is difficult when you are the person feeling neglect. As I said before I think she can't trust that I'm not gonna revert back to my old ways and it is my job to show her that I'm not.
One thing to mention is that they have a recently new born. Once the baby gets a bit older .. things WILL get easier. If he can just keep doing a good plan A and stop LB'ing ... I am sure his wife would respond in a better manner once she is not exasperated with over touching by the baby.
Hill .. how did that "talk" go? I know your wife cried .. but was it productive? Hopefully you avoided LB'ing behaviour and rationally conversed about whatever the convo was about.
Praying for you two..
MNG
Newborn just turned 1.
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me
Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?
Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.
Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."
Plan A is perfection Prisca? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly asking. I am a man, we are all human, and I don't think Dr Harley would suggest that perfection is the only way to conduct Plan A?
Dr. Harley would tell you that if you are Lovebusting, you are not doing Plan A. You do not have to be perfect to avoid abusing your wife.
You can listen to the criticism of your current Plan A and go and do something constructive to better yourself and your marriage, or you can mope about how nobody's perfect.
One is taking action. The other will get you nowhere.
Your choice.
Picking and chosing the parts one likes and not doing the parts one does not is not doing plan A.
Part WE, whatever seems to be getting you the results you want?
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more.
I think this is what your wife said you need to focus on. Are you making any progress in this direction? I bring it up because I think it could really help. And it shows a crack of willingness on her part.
Talk went well. She said she likes the new me, but that she got so used to doing her own thing without me because I was never interested in her. In other words she gave up on me long, long ago.
She may have given up, but making love bank deposits will turn that around.
Ask Prisca how many times she has given up on me!
Anyway, your wife has given you the clue to how to get things moving forward again: start planning stuff (within parameters she is comfortable with). Plan, invite, don't demand, stay calm. Be patient. Leave the door open behind her for her to run back out if she gets an inkling that she is trapped or that you might not be safe or something.
That and she is incredibly worn out every with the
kids and everything else that concerns her day to day.
If this is the pressing problem in her life, then the man she falls in love with will be the man who becomes involved and concerned with those problems. He will express empathy, be her confidante and person she can vent to, will always be calm even when those problems affect him emotionally, too, and will offer to assist in solutions to problems, without trying to drag her into such solutions. And he'll be that man even if she's disrespectful and abusive and blames him for all of it! And when she falls in love with that man ... everything will change.
Be that man.
Concrete suggestions of things you can DO:
* Plan time for you and your wife.
* Become involved in talking about and working on her problems with her
* Give Dr. Harley another call
I've taken my assistance with kids and house to an entirely new level. She refuses my help with laundry, but I make them all breakfast every morning while she is at the gym, pack lunches. I give 50% of the baths, I tell her daily how hard it is to be a stay at home mommy, etc.
Last night she fell asleep on the couch right after we got the kids down together for the 10th time in 15 days. She said are you mad at me? I said "no I'm disappointed we didn't get to hang out." I want to spend time with my wife badly and she says she wants to spend time with me, all I know is that no matter what and without fail she makes time to hit the gym every morning. From my perspective I can only grant someone circumstantial understanding if those same struggles affected all parts of her life rather than just spending time with me. I asked her if we could go on a date this week and she said yes so we'll see how it goes.
From my perspective I can only grant someone circumstantial understanding if those same struggles affected all parts of her life rather than just spending time with me.
From my perspective, you can't afford to judge your wife, even if you completely disagree with the way she lives her life.
I've taken my assistance with kids and house to an entirely new level. She refuses my help with laundry, but I make them all breakfast every morning while she is at the gym, pack lunches. I give 50% of the baths, I tell her daily how hard it is to be a stay at home mommy, etc.
This is great. Are you giving her praise and admiration and encouragement along with talking about how hard the job is?
And also, are you letting her talk to you, vent to you, about her struggles and frustrations, and her goals and desires?
Conversation about what is affecting her emotionally == BIG LOVE BANK DEPOSITS! (It may also be extremely emotional for you, but the payoff comes when she sees, over time, that you are safe to talk to about these things.
More than anything, she wants a close friend who is invested in these issues with her, whom she can talk to about it.)
I want to spend time with my wife badly and she says she wants to spend time with me, all I know is that no matter what and without fail she makes time to hit the gym every morning.
She could make changes that would help your relationship, sure, but it is completely unproductive to go down this road. You are just training your brain to resent her by dwelling on it.
After we've kicked your love bank deposits up high enough that you start to get through to her, she'll be a lot more motivated to spend time with you. You've got to win her over, attract her back to you. In order for that to be genuine, she's got to be free to reject you.
* Do the two of you stay in contact during the day? Do you talk to her about what is going on during her day? Do you support her? Do you show her daily she is more important than your job?
* Do you have a plan for this date? Have you shown some initiative?
* Do you have a plan for something to do at home this week, too? Show some more initiative. She asked you to plan things.
* Do you have a plan for dates and at-home activities next week?
This is hard but doable. I've learned that
-I can't make her do anything
-that she finds things important that I don't find important at all and vice versa
-that when she DJs me, AOs me, or SDs me that there is no retaliation required
So I'm a year into this but then again I'm mostly going it alone, wife isn't a fan of MB. My marriage is sexless, aside from an occasional "hop on and make it quick" which makes me actual prefer not to have sex. My wife told me she likes who I've become but that it will take more time. I also believe that a vasectomy will lead to no further sex, affection, or any other need. DJ? Past behavior has told me there are unlimited reasons for no sex.
Btw I emailed Joyce no return, should I try again?
On the vasectomy, do you want the ability to have children again or not? Forget reversals and all that. But would you want to have more children or not?
Fireproof is recommneded around here. I finally watched that movie this evening and it's fantastic. A bit cheesy but very good. Would your wife be willing to sit down and watch it with you?
I'm wondering if you come off as nonjudgemental as you claim to be. Would you be willing to record conversations through the day/evening and play them back to see how you sound?
Hi, Hilltopper, good to see you posting again. If you aren't hearing back from the radio show, definitely click notify and get the mods involved. Ruikee did just that this week, and they were able to get him through, and he's going to be on on Monday.
Sounds like your three lessons learned match up with a lot of what I've learned the last couple of years.
Yes -- you can't make her do anything, and shouldn't try. Can't even make her feel anything, or believe anything, and shouldn't try.
Your third lesson - no retaliation required - was also a hard one for me; still is. Seems like disrespect is just crying out for disrespect in return; demands are just crying out for demands in return; independent behavior is just crying out for independent behavior in return; and all of them seemed to require an angry outburst! Of course, none of those got me anywhere. I got tired of trying stuff that hurt my wife AND made our life worse.
Regarding those things that your wife finds important -- can you be specific? Those are her chief complaints. Those are the areas in life where you are going to have to change. A win-win solution to each of those issues has not been found yet.
It may seem like there are an infinite number of these and she will never be happy no matter how much you do, but I promise you this is not the case. Dr. Harley says that complaints are not infinite; they really are finite, although the number of them may seem overwhelming. He tries to encourage people not to hit their spouse with ALL complaints at once, because it does lead people to feel like nothing they will ever do will be enough. However, even if they feel that way, it is not true. Address what you can, build new habits, then move on to the next complaint. Each one will make your marriage that much better, and you will hit the point where she is out of things that make her unhappy in life.
Get involved in those things that are important to her. Everything that affects her affects you. Be her companion in dealing with the problems in her life -- that is what she married you for, and if you are not fulfilling that role, she is going to feel disappointed about your marriage.
I quit judging my wife for prioritizing our problems differently than I did, and started diving into partnering with her to take care of those problems. She has become much happier with life as a result, and as the problems have started to shrink or vanish, she has acted much more romantic toward me. I got this plan straight out of what I've heard from Dr. Harley on the radio show, and it works.
It can work for you, too, but you may need help staying motivated, because it's going to require you to accept that some problems that are very important to you cannot be solved until some other problems are solved first. During that time, you are going to feel impatient and frustrated. Your Taker will want to be satisfied, and will encourage you to make decisions that would be self-destructive.
On one of the radio shows this week, Joyce said their spam filter has been set too tight, and they are trying to fix that, so that's probably what happened to your email. Try Markos' idea.
I would love to hear what Dr. Harley would advise you.
On the vasectomy, do you want the ability to have children again or not? Forget reversals and all that. But would you want to have more children or not?
Fireproof is recommneded around here. I finally watched that movie this evening and it's fantastic. A bit cheesy but very good. Would your wife be willing to sit down and watch it with you?
I'm wondering if you come off as nonjudgemental as you claim to be. Would you be willing to record conversations through the day/evening and play them back to see how you sound?
No more children. I have two forms of birth control condoms or a vasectomy. I have been willing to do the first, but after researching the second I am not so comfortable and it has nothing to do with wanting to have more children. My wife has eliminated every single form of options on the table for herself so our choices have been made for me.
I frequently get asked "if my wife would be willing to...fill in blank." The short answer is no, she is almost never willing to take a leap of faith into trying something or watching something.
Recording conversations would be fine. I am successful at remaining non-judgemental aside from letting my emotions get the best of me and wanting to retaliate. I'm working very hard at walking away.
Hi, Hilltopper, good to see you posting again. If you aren't hearing back from the radio show, definitely click notify and get the mods involved. Ruikee did just that this week, and they were able to get him through, and he's going to be on on Monday.
Sounds like your three lessons learned match up with a lot of what I've learned the last couple of years.
Yes -- you can't make her do anything, and shouldn't try. Can't even make her feel anything, or believe anything, and shouldn't try.
Your third lesson - no retaliation required - was also a hard one for me; still is. Seems like disrespect is just crying out for disrespect in return; demands are just crying out for demands in return; independent behavior is just crying out for independent behavior in return; and all of them seemed to require an angry outburst! Of course, none of those got me anywhere. I got tired of trying stuff that hurt my wife AND made our life worse.
Regarding those things that your wife finds important -- can you be specific? Those are her chief complaints. Those are the areas in life where you are going to have to change. A win-win solution to each of those issues has not been found yet.
It may seem like there are an infinite number of these and she will never be happy no matter how much you do, but I promise you this is not the case. Dr. Harley says that complaints are not infinite; they really are finite, although the number of them may seem overwhelming. He tries to encourage people not to hit their spouse with ALL complaints at once, because it does lead people to feel like nothing they will ever do will be enough. However, even if they feel that way, it is not true. Address what you can, build new habits, then move on to the next complaint. Each one will make your marriage that much better, and you will hit the point where she is out of things that make her unhappy in life.
Get involved in those things that are important to her. Everything that affects her affects you. Be her companion in dealing with the problems in her life -- that is what she married you for, and if you are not fulfilling that role, she is going to feel disappointed about your marriage.
I quit judging my wife for prioritizing our problems differently than I did, and started diving into partnering with her to take care of those problems. She has become much happier with life as a result, and as the problems have started to shrink or vanish, she has acted much more romantic toward me. I got this plan straight out of what I've heard from Dr. Harley on the radio show, and it works.
It can work for you, too, but you may need help staying motivated, because it's going to require you to accept that some problems that are very important to you cannot be solved until some other problems are solved first. During that time, you are going to feel impatient and frustrated. Your Taker will want to be satisfied, and will encourage you to make decisions that would be self-destructive.
Everything is important to my wife. So much so that I almost have no interests any longer. So here is one dilemma I have. After trying to take interest in many of the things that are important to my wife, I am simply just not interested at all, and my wife knows it. I wouldn't think Dr H wants me to pretend to be interested right?
Another dilemma is my wife wanting to do all of the million things around the house, not wanting me to do them, essentially having my life be watching all three kids on the weekends unless I complain about which gets her annoyed at me. My words, tone, and attitude are not demanding or judgmental in any way but she doesn't like when I make it known that watching the kids so she can go pursue her interests doesn't make me happy. I feel taken advantage of and neglected at the same time which isn't good.
So I feel like a punching bag yes man for my wife frequently, and if I hold in my honest feelings then she gets furious at me and calls me a liar, but yet if I am respectfully and radically honest it leads to conflict so who wants to engage in that constantly? I feel so conflicted that this process will improve my situation and fulfillment in marriage. I spend hours obsessing over it. I get resentful that my wife appears to be perfectly content at the way things are. I sometimes feel like she is allowed to run roughshod and play by whatever rules she wants yet I have my Dr H plan that I need to stick to.
Hi, Hilltopper, good to see you posting again. If you aren't hearing back from the radio show, definitely click notify and get the mods involved. Ruikee did just that this week, and they were able to get him through, and he's going to be on on Monday.
Sounds like your three lessons learned match up with a lot of what I've learned the last couple of years.
Yes -- you can't make her do anything, and shouldn't try. Can't even make her feel anything, or believe anything, and shouldn't try.
Your third lesson - no retaliation required - was also a hard one for me; still is. Seems like disrespect is just crying out for disrespect in return; demands are just crying out for demands in return; independent behavior is just crying out for independent behavior in return; and all of them seemed to require an angry outburst! Of course, none of those got me anywhere. I got tired of trying stuff that hurt my wife AND made our life worse.
Regarding those things that your wife finds important -- can you be specific? Those are her chief complaints. Those are the areas in life where you are going to have to change. A win-win solution to each of those issues has not been found yet.
It may seem like there are an infinite number of these and she will never be happy no matter how much you do, but I promise you this is not the case. Dr. Harley says that complaints are not infinite; they really are finite, although the number of them may seem overwhelming. He tries to encourage people not to hit their spouse with ALL complaints at once, because it does lead people to feel like nothing they will ever do will be enough. However, even if they feel that way, it is not true. Address what you can, build new habits, then move on to the next complaint. Each one will make your marriage that much better, and you will hit the point where she is out of things that make her unhappy in life.
Get involved in those things that are important to her. Everything that affects her affects you. Be her companion in dealing with the problems in her life -- that is what she married you for, and if you are not fulfilling that role, she is going to feel disappointed about your marriage.
I quit judging my wife for prioritizing our problems differently than I did, and started diving into partnering with her to take care of those problems. She has become much happier with life as a result, and as the problems have started to shrink or vanish, she has acted much more romantic toward me. I got this plan straight out of what I've heard from Dr. Harley on the radio show, and it works.
It can work for you, too, but you may need help staying motivated, because it's going to require you to accept that some problems that are very important to you cannot be solved until some other problems are solved first. During that time, you are going to feel impatient and frustrated. Your Taker will want to be satisfied, and will encourage you to make decisions that would be self-destructive.
Everything is important to my wife. So much so that I almost have no interests any longer. So here is one dilemma I have. After trying to take interest in many of the things that are important to my wife, I am simply just not interested at all, and my wife knows it. I wouldn't think Dr H wants me to pretend to be interested right?
Another dilemma is my wife wanting to do all of the million things around the house, not wanting me to do them, essentially having my life be watching all three kids on the weekends unless I complain about which gets her annoyed at me. My words, tone, and attitude are not demanding or judgmental in any way but she doesn't like when I make it known that watching the kids so she can go pursue her interests doesn't make me happy. I feel taken advantage of and neglected at the same time which isn't good.
So I feel like a punching bag yes man for my wife frequently, and if I hold in my honest feelings then she gets furious at me and calls me a liar, but yet if I am respectfully and radically honest it leads to conflict so who wants to engage in that constantly? I feel so conflicted that this process will improve my situation and fulfillment in marriage. I spend hours obsessing over it. I get resentful that my wife appears to be perfectly content at the way things are. I sometimes feel like she is allowed to run roughshod and play by whatever rules she wants yet I have my Dr H plan that I need to stick to.
By the way I heard a show a couple of weeks back where Dr H talking about radical honestly trumping everything else, so this is the path I'm taking and to be perfectly honest I think in the long run it will smooth out.
We're off on a day with the family, I'll check back later.
Essentially having my life be watching all three kids on the weekends
You get to spend the entire weekend with all three of your children. It's a privilege. I feel sad at the thought that you don't value that opportunity with them more. You'll never get these years with them back. Rather than complain about it, what if you could find a way to be grateful?
Hilltopper,
How are you doing on the 15+ hours of UA time? (doesn't sound good from the post) I would think you need UA time to get her to fall in love with you.
I asked her if we could go on a date this week and she said yes so we'll see how it goes.
How did that date go?
I think if she falls in love with you again, she will care about your happiness, and you can then sell her on the POJA concept. I think UA time would be key to this.
If she is declining UA time, the only thing I can think of is to keep trying to be creative and entice her into it. I agree with Markos (earlier?) that once she falls in love with you, things may improve rapidly.
Hill ... I am sorry things are not going well for you, or at least not getting better. Are you managing to get in 15hrs a week of UA? I know i am not consistantly .. but when my wife and I do, it sure makes a difference. We recently had a huge blow out in the family (you can see my thread if you like) and it took a huge toll on my wife and I .. almost regressed us back to a horrible state .. doesnt take much time at all to make massive LB withdrawls to make things ugly again. The UA is SUPER important .. once we got back on track with our UA things started to turn around again to the positive.
My understanding is that Hilltopper's wife has not been enthusiastic about spending 15 hours together.
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more.
Any more news on this? This is the problem/complaint I was suggesting you get involved and interested in.
By the way I heard a show a couple of weeks back where Dr H talking about radical honestly trumping everything else, so this is the path I'm taking and to be perfectly honest I think in the long run it will smooth out.
Be careful that you do not take this as permission to lovebust -- Radical Honesty does not include DJs.
And you're still DJing, btw. You write about your wife the same way Markos used to write about me. Made me sick every time I read his posts about me. And it hindered our recovery greatly. What ever you say about her here, you might as well be saying it to her face.
Hill, you sound tired and depressed? The holidays can be stressful on everyone. It's cyclical, though, right? One morning soon you'll wake up and feel like yourself again, plan some rest and relaxation time with your wife, time that'll recharge the batteries for both of you. How long does it even take to plan a date and get a sitter, when you're running on all cylinders? 15 minutes? Do you have a 15 minute coffee break at work today that you'd be willing to just "get 'er done?" Is there a different time of the ay that would be easier instead?
Are you getting enough sleep, good nutrition, exercise?
Everything is important to my wife. So much so that I almost have no interests any longer. So here is one dilemma I have. After trying to take interest in many of the things that are important to my wife, I am simply just not interested at all, and my wife knows it. I wouldn't think Dr H wants me to pretend to be interested right?
So you gave that stuff a shot, you didn't like it. Next!
It's only difficult until you get some momentum behind you. Maybe you want to try something totally out of left field like cwmi and her H did, like the p90x stuff, or taking up sailing with little kids. For us, two couch potatoes, we found we we liked playing soccer in the back yard. Folks are finding new stuff to try that they turn out really enjoying, every day.
What kind of things do you think you'd like to try? What did y'all do for fun when you were dating?
Another dilemma is my wife wanting to do all of the million things around the house, not wanting me to do them, essentially having my life be watching all three kids on the weekends unless I complain about which gets her annoyed at me. My words, tone, and attitude are not demanding or judgmental in any way but she doesn't like when I make it known that watching the kids so she can go pursue her interests doesn't make me happy. I feel taken advantage of and neglected at the same time which isn't good.
You're not enthusiastic, Hill. How about some balance, so you're both happy. Maybe some middle ground, like taking the kids out to the park for a few hours so she could have some time at home without anyone underfoot? Maybe getting a cleaning person so there isn't so many chores left for the weekend? I don't know, what solutions do you see for this?
So I feel like a punching bag yes man for my wife frequently, and if I hold in my honest feelings then she gets furious at me and calls me a liar, but yet if I am respectfully and radically honest it leads to conflict so who wants to engage in that constantly?
Hill, you can be a charming man. How about sharing your O&H while laying on the charm? Whatever you have to say can be said in a way that she knows is form the heart, because you love her and want to be happy together, right? When does she respond best to you?
I feel so conflicted that this process will improve my situation and fulfillment in marriage. I spend hours obsessing over it. I get resentful that my wife appears to be perfectly content at the way things are.
What results have you seen so far, what is working better now than when you joined earlier this year? I understand the hours obsessing over it, what would you like to replace that with? If your wife is content, that means some things are working, right? Is there some success there you two can build on?
I sometimes feel like she is allowed to run roughshod and play by whatever rules she wants yet I have my Dr H plan that I need to stick to.
Allowed to run roughshod, is this frustration talking? Is she doing things that harm you in the present, or are you frustrated over stuff that's happened in the past? If she's doing things that harm you in the present, how about getting some outside support for the marriage?
When my MB plan felt like punishment instead of a relief, it was where I misunderstood stuff. You're only supposed to be doing things for yourself, your marriage, your family that you are enthusiastic about. The only things you need to avoid are things that gain at your and/or their expense. What about your plan feels like something you need to stick to while she's "running roughshod"? For example, if she's yelling, and you're not yelling back, that's unacceptable that she's still acting out like that, and you all can get outside intervention for that. Because if for no other reason, your kids deserve better. And if you're not yelling, that's because you are a man of character and not stooping to that level. Showing your kids how to take on challenges with grace and dignity and effectiveness. Not because you're following a plan you don't want to be following, right?
I'm curious and this is off topic. And let me premise this by saying that you hsouldn't go and get a vasectomy if you don't want one. But what is it that you have read that makes you hesitant? I'm not sure if I've told you or not but I had one. Of course I had 4 kids and my wife was pregnant. Neither of us wanted more children. So I immediately made an appointment.
kilted .. i thought that exact question .. i got a V too. The anticipation of doing it was worse than actually doing it. After it was done i felt silly for feeling so hesitant and upset about it. I am SOOO glad i did it though! So is my wife!
Acquaintance lost sensation after a V and can't make it happen fair enough?
Anyways times are good as I'm focused. One issue I am having is not reacting to lovebusters. To be intellectually honest I'm rarely disrespectful unless I've been disrespectful. I'm no saint, just extremely practical. The most common is my wife DJing me about anything and me letting it get to me and reacting to her. The mist common is me feeling offended and expressing my views.
Anyways times are good as I'm focused. One issue I am having is not reacting to lovebusters. To be intellectually honest I'm rarely disrespectful unless I've been disrespectful. I'm no saint, just extremely practical. The most common is my wife DJing me about anything and me letting it get to me and reacting to her. The mist common is me feeling offended and expressing my views.
I have that problem. It is extremely hard. Especially since I'm the kind of guy who was wired not to even see my own disrespect which I was offering in response.
But it's just got to be done if you want to get her motivated again. If you can encourage her to be open with you about your disrespect it will help. You can do this by telling her "I know that I have a problem with being really disrespectful to you. It is important to me not to do this, but I don't always recognize it. I appreciate it when you give me a list each week of the things I've said or done that you felt were disrespectful." And it's encouraging to her if you do the whole thing without mentioning her problem, even though her problem is extremely relevant, and it sure would help if she'd work on her end, too, you know? But she's not doing that, so you're really left with little other choice.
For Prisca it made a huge difference when she saw me not reacting with disrespect to her behavior. I became the kind of person who would focus on whatever problem she was talking about, without deflecting back to the problems that she was causing me. And after enough of this, she became motivated to work on the problems I had identified.
Incidentally, Dr. Harley says the normal tendency for anyone married to an abusive spouse is to become abusive themselves. So you are completely normal in this regard!
Thanks man. I feel normal! It is funny that I'm extremely disciplined in certain areas of my life almost to obsession yet I find myself compelled to respond to disrespect with more of the same. Don't do that Hill!
Thanks man. I feel normal! It is funny that I'm extremely disciplined in certain areas of my life almost to obsession yet I find myself compelled to respond to disrespect with more of the same. Don't do that Hill!
Exactly! It's as simple as that!
When you are used to thinking rationally and trying to put your emotions aside to make rational decisions, it's easy to miss it sometimes when you are failing to do that and instinct is taking over. We are all experts in self-deception.
I had to build the habit of "shutting up" before I could start to build more rational habits of response.
Every love buster you eliminate brings you one step closer to tipping past the romantic love threshold. Everything changes at that point. There will be no gradual changes leading up to it, few signs that you are making any progress. And then there will be a sudden change.
How are all of you? It's the legend of legend Hilltopper here! I would say Tgrace and I are agreeable most of the time. She doesn't like me being here which is why I've stayed away for so long. Anyway you slice it my wife is still not into me. Because of this I go through ups and downs. I try hard at times and other times I throw my hands up and tell myself what's the point? Tgrace denounces the forum and blames it for my accusing her of cheating and a number of other insults which all of you who know me know very well about. We get along pretty good and I would say our time here was well worth it. We still don't have a fruitful sex life. It is very infrequent and more than the sex it is more that she is just not into me. I don't feel loved like I once did. We can go to dinner and have a fabulous time and afterwards I feel great. It never turns into anything that makes me feel that she is interested in me. I realize after all of this that sex is the culmination of her being into me, but the overall feeling that I get from her backs up the no sex. Her body language is just not into me like it once was and I am lonely because of it. What IS she into? Honestly she never stops talking about what we need to buy for the house. After a long time of debt we are finally very comfortable and yet she seems obsessed with anything and everything that costs money. Every time it comes out of her mouth I feel this sense of disapproval which I know is judgmental and a DJ. Despite this I can't stand it. I figure out how to make money and she gets to figure out how to spend it and it is a problem. I told my wife about 10 months ago that I'd "move on" if things didn't get better. I'm conflicted. We fight about once a week instead of 3 times a day. We have sex about 1/10 days but it is a chore for her and that makes me not want it. Where do I go from here?
Hill
Hilltopper,
Welcome back!! Man, it's good to see you again.
I am so dead tired right now and probably need to get some sleep before I can post anything rational to you, but I think I've learned a whole lot in the last year about how to get marriages like yours and mine working better again. Would love to help you guys get to a place you like.
As far as telling your wife you'll move on, I made that mistake during an angry outburst last year, probably about the same time you did. One of the worst mistakes of my life, and I was on the radio show about it, and Dr. Harley told me to knock that off! It's still a traumatic memory for Prisca. Long and the short of it is, threats don't get what you want. The solution is to patiently, ever so patiently, follow the plan to get your wife to fall back in love with you again, addressing her complaints one by one.
We, too, have had a lot of trouble with money. Prisca has felt I was controlling about money for years. And she likes to buy things, too.
We now have an arrangement where we plan purchases ahead of time, with mutual agreement, and she loves it. That has taken care of a lot for us. It takes away a lot of the money stresses for me, and with that emotional need met for her (financial support), she feels a lot better.
Oops, I said I need to go to bed instead of posting. I hope some of this reads rationally. It's two hours later here than it is there, if I recall correctly.
Hilltopper,
Welcome back!! Man, it's good to see you again.
I am so dead tired right now and probably need to get some sleep before I can post anything rational to you, but I think I've learned a whole lot in the last year about how to get marriages like yours and mine working better again. Would love to help you guys get to a place you like.
As far as telling your wife you'll move on, I made that mistake during an angry outburst last year, probably about the same time you did. One of the worst mistakes of my life, and I was on the radio show about it, and Dr. Harley told me to knock that off! It's still a traumatic memory for Prisca. Long and the short of it is, threats don't get what you want. The solution is to patiently, ever so patiently, follow the plan to get your wife to fall back in love with you again, addressing her complaints one by one.
We, too, have had a lot of trouble with money. Prisca has felt I was controlling about money for years. And she likes to buy things, too.
We now have an arrangement where we plan purchases ahead of time, with mutual agreement, and she loves it. That has taken care of a lot for us. It takes away a lot of the money stresses for me, and with that emotional need met for her (financial support), she feels a lot better.
Oops, I said I need to go to bed instead of posting. I hope some of this reads rationally. It's two hours later here than it is there, if I recall correctly.
markos,
When was your call to the radio show?
markos,
When was your call to the radio show?
I remember your call it helped me to learn to become more flexible.
Here they are.
Radio clip on anger Segment #2 Segment #3
Good Morning Hilltopper! ... I was actually thinking of topping your thread and asking how you where doing the other day!
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Also did Prisca ever follow with the Harleys and write them?
How are all of you? It's the legend of legend Hilltopper here! I would say Tgrace and I are agreeable most of the time. She doesn't like me being here which is why I've stayed away for so long. Anyway you slice it my wife is still not into me. Because of this I go through ups and downs. I try hard at times and other times I throw my hands up and tell myself what's the point? Tgrace denounces the forum and blames it for my accusing her of cheating and a number of other insults which all of you who know me know very well about. We get along pretty good and I would say our time here was well worth it. We still don't have a fruitful sex life. It is very infrequent and more than the sex it is more that she is just not into me. I don't feel loved like I once did. We can go to dinner and have a fabulous time and afterwards I feel great. It never turns into anything that makes me feel that she is interested in me. I realize after all of this that sex is the culmination of her being into me, but the overall feeling that I get from her backs up the no sex. Her body language is just not into me like it once was and I am lonely because of it. What IS she into? Honestly she never stops talking about what we need to buy for the house. After a long time of debt we are finally very comfortable and yet she seems obsessed with anything and everything that costs money. Every time it comes out of her mouth I feel this sense of disapproval which I know is judgmental and a DJ. Despite this I can't stand it. I figure out how to make money and she gets to figure out how to spend it and it is a problem. I told my wife about 10 months ago that I'd "move on" if things didn't get better. I'm conflicted. We fight about once a week instead of 3 times a day. We have sex about 1/10 days but it is a chore for her and that makes me not want it. Where do I go from here?
Hill
I am a little more awake now, I hope.
As you can guess I've listened to hundreds of hours of Marriage Builders radio since we talked last.
What I've learned is that the case where the husband is on board with Marriage Builders and the wife is not is kind of a special case. Dr. Harley does talk about it on the radio from time to time.
When a wife has been presented with Marriage Builders and doesn't want to do it, she usually has beliefs that conflict. The belief is usually "I don't believe this can work." Sometimes it's "I don't believe marriage really needs to be like that" or "I don't believe it should take this much work" or "I believe it should come naturally, if it doesn't, maybe we're not right for each other."
But according to Dr. Harley, our beliefs actually tend to line up to match our feelings.
And her feelings are under her husband's direct influence.
It turns out that when someone's account in our Love Bank is above the romantic love threshold, our instincts start prompting us to want to meet their emotional needs. Husbands suddenly start to want to be affectionate and have conversation. Wives suddenly start to want to make love and be together for recreation. Dr. Harley says it is sudden, not gradual, and it comes without warning. And for awhile it can be rocky, as the feeling comes and goes suddenly while we bob over and under the surface of the romantic love threshold.
Dr. Harley says he's had men testify that it's like their wives suddenly took hormones or something.
I can testify that my marriage has been like this. Prisca's sex drive, as well as interest in meeting my emotional needs, and even her interest in having her own emotional needs met, has been NEGATIVE, and has been STRATOSPHERIC.
What it takes is a long LONG, patient deferment of gratification, making tons of love bank deposits, avoiding love busters like the plague, changing lots of habits PERMANENTLY in order to rise above the threshold and get way beyond it. Then suddenly there is a sudden change, and 80-90% of the marital problems seem to go away.
I have found that I have to follow this plan. It condenses a lot of what I've heard from Dr. Harley, and it works:
* If I am unsatisfied with something in my marriage,
* Ask myself: is my wife in love with me?
* If the answer is no, then, ask myself what her complaints are. Then ask myself what I can do to address them.
* If the answer is yes, then make a thoughtful request or respectfully complain. But in general if I am in this frame of mind, my wife is not in love with me.
I usually find that the complaints she has are things she's told me about and been waiting on awhile.
Sometimes I can turn into a disrespectful jerk in my thinking and think how long I've waited for some of my complaints to be addressed. But, if she's not in love with me, then she's not willing to address them, period, and there's only one way to change it. And if she is in love with me, usually I don't have any complaints! Almost all disrespect on her part disappears when she is in love with me, along with reluctance to be with me and other things that I have complained about in the past.
Another important thing in there is to ask her if she has any complaints. But usually I don't have to do this if we are that point. Usually, I already know, if I am honest with myself, and drop any kind of disrespectful rationalization about why she shouldn't feel that way, or shouldn't complain about that, or whatever.
The solution is single-minded devotion to getting real answers to her complaints, making the changes permanent, NEVER LOVE BUSTING FOR AN INSTANT because she has already been through far more and far worse than she deserves and can't take any more, and making the biggest love bank deposits she is willing for me to make.
Here's a new radio show for you to listen to, Hilltopper:
Okay, I thought I made a specific thread about this radio show, but apparently I just posted it on other threads. Either way, here it is for you, Accuray:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=68There is something about romantic love that creates a special incentive to do the things that the other person needs. So a man and a woman that are in love with each other romantically -- which this person doesn't seem to value (not yet, we hope he'll get there, yes) -- if they're in love with each other romantically, your emotions kick in and encourage you to do things that you might not need yourself.
Woman become far more sexually oriented when they are in love. They are more interested in helping them out domestically; they are more interested in looking better for him. They are more interested in going to football games along with him and participating in his recreational activities.
And men, when they're in love, they're more interested in talking to her for hours at a time, to being affectionate with her; they are interested in being more honest and open. In other words, they are more interested in meeting each other's needs when they're in love.
So, the point of my seminars, and the books that I write, says, look: being in love is a big deal. It'll make your relationship really move along, and be very, very, very good for you, and all of his "utility needs" end up being met in a relationship where there is mutual love
There is no sense spending a lot of time doing analysis on why she isn't interested in meeting emotional needs. We know why: she is not in love. That is 80-90% of the problem, maybe even 100%. Solve that biggest problem first, using the plan here, and then reevaluate and see if there are still any issues.
Let me boil that down to the good part:
Woman become far more sexually oriented when they are in love.
A few months ago we bought Dr. Harley's Defending Traditional Marriage. I think it was the last Harley book we didn't have, other than some out of print ones.
I expected this book to veer off into politics and wasn't really sure what I was going to think.
What I found was a wealth of additional information in here about Dr. Harley's approach that I hadn't seen before. In particular, this book is a little bit like the counterpart to Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.
If you've read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, you know the basic principle: the Buyers Agreement is the way people live when they expect to stay in the marriage for life and have to fix problems that are making one or both of them unhappy. If people will live this way, their marriages will be happy.
But in Defending Traditional Marriage, Dr. H talks from the perspective of a counselor, and he reveals another detail: his plan for getting people to adopt the Buyer's Agreement is 1) get them to fall in love with each other, 2) persuade them to adopt the agreement. If he can get them to try out the behaviors that lead to them falling in love, then once they do, they become open to living by the agreement that will keep them in love.
What seems to be necessary in a number of cases is a good deal of pump priming by the husband: eliminate the lifestyle choices and love busters that are sapping the love bank, sit their patiently waiting for the snail to appear, meet emotional needs with skill, finesse, and sophistication, and suddenly there is a wife who is willing to go all the way as a Buyer.
That is a lot to take in but it not only makes sense, I think I know all of this. There comes a time, and in my case probably multiple times, where you wonder when the light at the end of the tunnel is. I ask myself this all the time. "Am I willing to wait as long as it takes?" Being with someone else literally makes no sense. We have 3 incredible children together and honestly have a pretty good life. She seems quite content in fact which is something else that bothers me. I had an example of a marriage between my parents that I consider part of the 20% that Dr H mentions. Her folks on the other hand are officially married and he is absolutely miserable. I often wonder if her view of marriage has impacted what she expects out of one? Is her idea of marriage what we have whereas mine is one that expects greatness? I want to be madly in love. I want and desire to have a hard time keeping our hands off each other. I want her to hug me back like I hug her. I get none of that. She spends hours and hours worrying about what color to paint kitchen cabinets. I don't get it personally but I'm ok that this is one of her hobbies. What I don't get is why it is a priority well above our marriage. Not just slightly, I mean 10 to 1.
One more thing because SF is the most important thing to me and to most guys. I have an appt for getting a V tomorrow. What little sex we do have I want to be good for both of us mentally and physically. To be honest I expect nothing to change in that department but I'm doing it anyways. We'll see how it goes.
Good Morning Hilltopper! ... I was actually thinking of topping your thread and asking how you where doing the other day!
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Oh yes, Mr Nice Guy, how are you???
Ok so without a doubt the kids sap my wife's strength as well as mine. At the end of the day we are both exhausted and the last thing she wants to do is be lovey dovey or spend good quality time with each other fulfilling needs. I've asked repeatedly but it doesn't really change anything. Instead she becomes more needy and I try and accommodate as best I can to cater to that need. I recognize that the house is never going to be "just right" for her because we've been here 10 years and she still gets irritated each and every day about one thing or another. I'm not the handiest guy in the world and she is ok with that but that doesn't mean that she is ok with the things that she wants to fix or change. I take the path of least resistance and always try not to create more projects to do whereas my wife does the opposite. It bothers me but I've learned that it is important to her and that is just the way it's gonna be. How about I hire a handyman and put him on a retainer for 10 hours a month or whatever it takes for the next 90 days to fix every single thing that bothers her from top to bottom, and hire a laundry pick up and delivery service so she doesn't get so overwhelmed about the piles and piles of laundry? Is it ok that I'm not the one fixing the stuff and that I'm not the one doing the laundry?
Hilltopper, oh yes! I'd have to say that if my husband hired someone to take care of the things that bothered me, that would fill my lovebank extensively!
What a great idea!
Ah, now we are getting to her complaints! If you can make some serious headway on those things that are never quite right, those things that are occupying her mind, you would become her partner in the solutions to the problems she is experiencing in life.
Are there any obstacles to doing that? Seriously, there's a good chance that this is the way to go. She is expressing unmet emotional needs here, and these problems are distracting her from intimacy.
Ah, now we are getting to her complaints! If you can make some serious headway on those things that are never quite right, those things that are occupying her mind, you would become her partner in the solutions to the problems she is experiencing in life.
Are there any obstacles to doing that? Seriously, there's a good chance that this is the way to go. She is expressing unmet emotional needs here, and these problems are distracting her from intimacy.
No no obstacles in my mind, financially or other to do this. She may not want to outsource all of our laundry so I'll have to figure out what goes and what doesn't.
A woman who wouldn't outsource all the laundry? Nonsense!
You know the answer here is POJA. Acknowledge the problem, offer solutions, agree on what to do. This is how we ended up with a robot vacuum. Also, sending out H's work clothes for launderin' and pressin'. These were things that were important to him to have done, and I didn't object to them getting done, only ME having to do them.
With the handyman solution, make sure she is comfortable with him (or her, lol). We've had some workers in our home while H was away who made me much less than comfortable, and others who I would have invited their whole families over for a cook-out. I suggest, after POJAing hiring someone to take care of those tasks, to do an interview/estimate in your home with your wife present. You two sit down and make a list of the tasks to be done asap, and bring in some bidders. Ask neighbors and/or coworkers for recommendations.
Hilltopper, oh yes! I'd have to say that if my husband hired someone to take care of the things that bothered me, that would fill my lovebank extensively!
What a great idea!
Thank you for the female perspective that goes a long way!
Excellent clips on POJA. Please tell us what you think.
Radio clip on POJA Segment #2 Segment #3 Segment #4
One more thing because SF is the most important thing to me and to most guys. I have an appt for getting a V tomorrow. What little sex we do have I want to be good for both of us mentally and physically. To be honest I expect nothing to change in that department but I'm doing it anyways. We'll see how it goes.
This is a huge issue of contention between you, isn't it? And you were at an impasse. If you decide to go ahead with the vasectomy, make sure you do it enthusiastically. If you do it reluctantly it will cause enormous resentment in you - especially if nothing changes afterwards with respect to sex.
Does your wife express any pleasure in the fact that you are considering a vasectomy?
Dang some more excellent clips.
Radio clip Segment #2 Segment #3
One more thing because SF is the most important thing to me and to most guys. I have an appt for getting a V tomorrow. What little sex we do have I want to be good for both of us mentally and physically. To be honest I expect nothing to change in that department but I'm doing it anyways. We'll see how it goes.
This is a huge issue of contention between you, isn't it? And you were at an impasse. If you decide to go ahead with the vasectomy, make sure you do it enthusiastically. If you do it reluctantly it will cause enormous resentment in you - especially if nothing changes afterwards with respect to sex.
Does your wife express any pleasure in the fact that you are considering a vasectomy?
Yes she does. I let her know I'm taking a leap of faith. I was probably not as honest as I could have been about my decision earlier not to have a V. As I review my thoughts and really dug deep I think it has more to do with the fact that I didn't think anything would change sexually should I have one. I thought, why would I subject myself to something that has no benefit to me? In asking my wife I gather it will have "some" benefit to me in terms of her not worrying about an unwanted pregnancy, so the rest of it relates to eliminating those things that cause her not to desire sex. Not sure if it has to do with it, but she held my hand on date night in the car on the way home after knowing I got an appt for a V, arranged for a handyman next week, and made arrangements for some laundry service as well.
Did you get a chance to listen to the clips?
What did you think?
No I didn't listen to the clips. But how are you doing?
No I didn't listen to the clips. But how are you doing?
When you get a chance to listen, please let me know what you think.
I'm doing well, thanks for asking.
A woman who wouldn't outsource all the laundry? Nonsense!
You know the answer here is POJA. Acknowledge the problem, offer solutions, agree on what to do. This is how we ended up with a robot vacuum. Also, sending out H's work clothes for launderin' and pressin'. These were things that were important to him to have done, and I didn't object to them getting done, only ME having to do them.
With the handyman solution, make sure she is comfortable with him (or her, lol). We've had some workers in our home while H was away who made me much less than comfortable, and others who I would have invited their whole families over for a cook-out. I suggest, after POJAing hiring someone to take care of those tasks, to do an interview/estimate in your home with your wife present. You two sit down and make a list of the tasks to be done asap, and bring in some bidders. Ask neighbors and/or coworkers for recommendations.
Hard to POJA with someone who for the most part rejected MB, particularly the forum. I think she follows many of the principles without realizing it but for the most part by working on "me" for the past year it has made it easier on both of us because her bank isn't negative like it used to be. We still struggle with her DJ's and what typically happens is I reach a point where I've had enough and I fire back. It used to happen 5 times a day, not it is about once every 10 days and even at that we recover very quickly. Another thing that bothers me is that so many things bother her. Is that ok to be bothered by that?
I think it is more that she says anything and everything that comes to mind and it wears me down because it is kind of a drag to be around the doom and gloom 24-7. I have to be careful here, because I tend to judge her mentality and way of seeing things and it is REALLY, really hard for me. She would go to any amount of effort and spend any amount of money to get/keep the house just how she likes it, whereas I figure that houses are made to be lived in. Things get dirty and things break. There isn't unlimited money nor time to pay for and fix them all today. I'm sure she doesn't understand why I don't get irritated as easily as she does when something breaks or when there is a stain on the carpet that suddenly appears. I grew up in a house where my Dad obsessed over every little thing and he to this day will spend any amount of money fixing and upgrading things. I think I developed a very low threshold for this mentality so I'm doing the best I can to solve some of my wife's irritations with the house without spending beyond our means.
So would you say your marriage is better than it was a year ago?
So would you say your marriage is better than it was a year ago?
Sure much better. Most of it would be more because we've eliminated the DJ's and AO's and other love busters. I would say she still doesn't make me happy however. It is a start though.
Btw we did have a fight tonight. It started the same way with all of them. She DJ'd me and I reacted too harshly. We were equally to blame. I apologized.
Btw we did have a fight tonight. It started the same way with all of them. She DJ'd me and I reacted too harshly.
One of these days she is going to be disrespectful, and you are going to react gently and calmly, and she is going to be amazed and take notice that something has changed.
I like what Marcos has to say. Often I can diffuse a situation by calmly stating that I knew she is upset, I'm sorry for x action I did to upset her and I'd love to talk about it but that is appreciate if she didn't snap at me.
Or word it goes you want. The key for me is acknowledge she is upset, own up to my part, and then calmly state my own boundaries
A sentence that has helped me a lot to hold in my thoughts:
"She will be more motivated to work on her disrespect toward me when she is in love with me."
That helps me to put aside the issue for the moment, painful as it is, and address her complaints, which makes deposits in her love bank, and ultimately brings my wife to a place where she WANTS to be loving toward me and not disrespectful, as well as meet my emotional needs.
This strategy from Dr. Harley is very hard to do, but it works in my marriage. It usually takes just slightly longer than I expect/want it to take:
But even though she made an abusive remark, you can end the cycle of abuse before it begins if you don't accelerate negativity (that means, matching her abuse with abuse of your own). What you should do is ignore the abuse on her side, and in your own mind re-translate what she said to be "I would prefer it if you would dry the dishes this way, instead of the way you are drying them."
On the radio in 2010, Dr. Harley actually said that wives have more of a problem being disrespectful than husbands do!
But if you can keep your head, keep your cool, you have a great potential to turn it around.
Btw we did have a fight tonight. It started the same way with all of them. She DJ'd me and I reacted too harshly.
One of these days she is going to be disrespectful, and you are going to react gently and calmly, and she is going to be amazed and take notice that something has changed.
Agreed.
I like what Marcos has to say. Often I can diffuse a situation by calmly stating that I knew she is upset, I'm sorry for x action I did to upset her and I'd love to talk about it but that is appreciate if she didn't snap at me.
Or word it goes you want. The key for me is acknowledge she is upset, own up to my part, and then calmly state my own boundaries
Yes and I didn't do that. I felt what she accused me of was wrong and fired back.
Btw we did have a fight tonight. It started the same way with all of them. She DJ'd me and I reacted too harshly.
One of these days she is going to be disrespectful, and you are going to react gently and calmly, and she is going to be amazed and take notice that something has changed.
Agreed.
Did you get a chance to listen to the clips?
Did you get a chance to listen to the clips?
Yes. I posted a great one a few days ago.
We still struggle with her DJ's and what typically happens is I reach a point where I've had enough and I fire back.
Sounds like you still struggle with your
own DJs.
Btw we did have a fight tonight. It started the same way with all of them. She DJ'd me and I reacted too harshly. We were equally to blame. I apologized.
Apologies are meaningless when the same thing keeps happening over and over again.
Apologize by never doing it again.
We still struggle with her DJ's and what typically happens is I reach a point where I've had enough and I fire back.
Sounds like you still struggle with your
own DJs.
Yep sure do and I find it incredibly difficult not to react to a DJ with a DJ.
Handyman is gonna be here in 30 mins for the first week. I hired him 3 hours a week to do misc things around the house/yard. That is a problem, I found a solution, hopefully that will make some significant deposits. Laundry service hasn't gone over as well. I've offered but she might feel it to be invasive to have someone else doing our family's laundry, not really sure so I won't push it.
Have you listened to the clips?
Yep sure do and I find it incredibly difficult not to react to a DJ with a DJ.
Who doesn't?
What are you going to do about it?
Have you listened to the clips?
Dude, no I haven't. I have a stress fracture from training for a race and have spent too much time dealing with business and family. I really do want to listen to them forever and I thank you for being consistent with me. I don't know who you are and i suppose I've been a little unfair giving you your due in trying to help me and I apologize for that.
Have you listened to the clips?
Dude, no I haven't. I have a stress fracture from training for a race and have spent too much time dealing with business and family. I really do want to listen to them forever and I thank you for being consistent with me. I don't know who you are and i suppose I've been a little unfair giving you your due in trying to help me and I apologize for that.
Ok hope you get better.
I know the radio program teaches me so much about MB because you hear Dr. H in his own words.
Just to let you know I'm a dudette.
Geez I need to regroup and visit daily here and stop the patterns. My wife appears to be content with a marriage just the way it is. Either that or she is simply not in love with me and therefore I don't get from her what I need. I get tired of putting in the effort like this morning, got frustrated, and was disrespectful to my wife. I apologized, but like Prisca said, I have to end the behavior that prevents her from being in love with me and us having a great marriage. I don't have a willing participant of MB to work with so that means I'll have to do the heavy lifting until she reaches a point where she does fall back in love with me. I'm gonna go read the basic concepts and develop a plan because I'm not ok with a marriage without love and care.
Problem: I ruin the opportunity for my wife's LB to cross the threshold of love by DJs.
Solution: Eliminate the DJs, AO's, etc.
Plan: Take it one conversation at a time. Come here to the forum and start a new thread which is a NO DJ Roll Call. Today is my Day 1.
Geez I need to regroup and visit daily here and stop the patterns. My wife appears to be content with a marriage just the way it is. Either that or she is simply not in love with me and therefore I don't get from her what I need. I get tired of putting in the effort like this morning, got frustrated, and was disrespectful to my wife. I apologized, but like Prisca said, I have to end the behavior that prevents her from being in love with me and us having a great marriage. I don't have a willing participant of MB to work with so that means I'll have to do the heavy lifting until she reaches a point where she does fall back in love with me. I'm gonna go read the basic concepts and develop a plan because I'm not ok with a marriage without love and care.
Yay, yay, yay!
<-- Hilltopper
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
Thanks. Why work so hard at trying to get my wife to love me and then ruin it with a 60 second attack. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
Thanks. Why work so hard at trying to get my wife to love me and then ruin it with a 60 second attack. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
You got it, Hilltopper.
Have you heard Dr. Harley talk about relaxation exercises?
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
Thanks. Why work so hard at trying to get my wife to love me and then ruin it with a 60 second attack. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
You got it, Hilltopper.
Have you heard Dr. Harley talk about relaxation exercises?
Yes I have. When I say attack I don't mean AO, I mean something disrespectful in a stupid attempt to get what I want. This particular one referred to her as "a drag to be around" when referring to her getting stressed about the kids and house. Yeah I know I was a real jerk. I'll see if I can relax myself next time I'm feeling neglected.
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
Thanks. Why work so hard at trying to get my wife to love me and then ruin it with a 60 second attack. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
Yes. Our emotions make us do some pretty stupid things sometimes.
Basically, our instincts make us want to act in a way that will push away the person bothering us. It's a protection mechanism.
But because we are married to the person we are pushing away, doing so will have tremendous negative consequences! (UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE DECADE)
So we have to override those instincts and emotions with intelligence and rationality, like you are doing, and work a plan to change the things that are making us emotional and irrational.
The relaxation will help with all the love busters.
I bought a biofeedback device recently, on Dr. Harley's recommendation. Last week I wore it during a stressful IM conversation with Prisca. It was amazing -- every time I tabbed over to the IM window, the tone on the meter went through the roof!
Dr. Harley says I can learn to control this and stay calm all the time.
I like your plan, and the analytical approach you are taking.
It's got great promise.
Thanks. Why work so hard at trying to get my wife to love me and then ruin it with a 60 second attack. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
You got it, Hilltopper.
Have you heard Dr. Harley talk about relaxation exercises?
Yes I have. When I say attack I don't mean AO, I mean something disrespectful in a stupid attempt to get what I want. This particular one referred to her as "a drag to be around" when referring to her getting stressed about the kids and house. Yeah I know I was a real jerk. I'll see if I can relax myself next time I'm feeling neglected.
I have found the relaxation exercises to help with DJs, too, not just AOs.
I bought a biofeedback device recently, on Dr. Harley's recommendation.
This may not be a bad recommendation for you to consider.
Here's the article where Dr. Harley mentions biofeedback devices. It's from a fairly new newsletter he wrote:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html
Hill ... part of the problem I find .. even with myself, is if i am feeling desperate for my wifes attention (ie SF) she is turned off by it. I have learned to not feel so desperate and just work on me. You need to stop emitting desperation. THAT energy will drive your woman away (drives mine away)... its unmanly.
To kill your desperation.. its not any specific thing that you can do .. its in how you THINK. THINK and ASSUME you are the great catch ... this will emit a more masculine energy towards your wife. STOP walking on eggshells ... BE A MAN. Eventually you will feel more empowered as you self improve.
Start acting like a Prince charming or The Great Catch!. ASSUME your wife is attracted to you(even if she seems like she is not .. act like she is anyhow). DONT HAVE ANY EXPECTATIONS. IF things dont boil out to your expectations and your advances are rejected ... ROLL WITH THE PUNCHES and just let it roll off your back. Stop being a doormat for her and if shes disrespectful .. or rejects you .. dont fret it. Walk away and try again later! Rejection is better than regret! (regret for not at least trying that is). DONT appologize for your desires or your masculine acts! (after all she doesnt appologize for her feminine acts)
Do your best to look good, and smell good, Be decisive, even about the little things (have an opinion about everything) but dont do it for her .. DO IT FOR YOU. Work out and get some mass on you. Find your Humor and make your wife laugh whenever you can.. Look for situational humor ... poke fun at her in a gentle teasing ways and welcome the teasing back. Be Cocky/Funny when you can (in a respectful way).
Heres an example of cocky/funny that works well when used properly and in the right context, tone of voice and mood.
You: Tonight is your lucky night
Her: Oh really? Why is that?
You: Because you finally got to go out with me
Her: Sure! (if you said it right, she's going to be smiling by now!)
You: But no touching - *I* do all the touching!
This attitude adjustment will get you going down the right track all the while you start to incorporate your wifes needs into the bigger picture using marriage builders tools. After a few weeks of your new attitude (your wife will test you several times to see if your new attitude is for real or not) .. stick with it and MB and your wife will come around once you pass all her tests.
WHen PMS week comes .. and period week comes ... give your wife some grace for her out of wack horomones. Keep track of them (i use my note pad in my blackberry to track period start and end dates and set an alarm ahead of time for my wifes PMS week when i think it will start) ... especially note when you think PMS week will start so you can prepare mentally for rolling with the punches with her attitude.
You have alot in your favor ... just gotta fix up your desperation and start acting a little bit more masculine. Combine that with the MB tools that you can incorporate on your own (since your wife is not really on board with it) eventually she will start to notice you more.
MNG
Heres an example of cocky/funny that works well when used properly and in the right context, tone of voice and mood.
You: Tonight is your lucky night
Her: Oh really? Why is that?
You: Because you finally got to go out with me
Her: Sure! (if you said it right, she's going to be smiling by now!)
You: But no touching - *I* do all the touching!
That would be a real turn-off for me.
I'd be careful about a cocky attitude unless your wife has told you specifically that she enjoys it.
Yeah .. i can see that ... its just an example. And as i said .. those moments you have to feel out first. Make sure the mood is right .. set the tone of the day with lots of humor.
Heres another one. Of course mood and timing has to be right.
You: do you like ice-cream
Her: yea....
You: on what part of your body?? :P
Just be playful and fun... and stop making everything so serious. Lifes too short to be so serious all the time .. takes the fun out of everything. :P
Edit to add another example.
Yeah .. i can see that ... its just an example. And as i said .. those moments you have to feel out first. Make sure the mood is right .. set the tone of the day with lots of humor.
Heres another one. Of course mood and timing has to be right.
You: do you like ice-cream
Her: yea....
You: on what part of your body?? :P
Just be playful and fun... and stop making everything so serious. Lifes too short to be so serious all the time .. takes the fun out of everything. :P
Edit to add another example.
I think you bring up some valid points about asking desperate being a turn off, but Prisca is right, some of that stuff may not go over well. I was as cocky as they came when we were dating and she even reminds me about how I was more interested in getting promoted at the company we worked together than interested in her.
The ice cream is a 100% no and a total turn-off to my wife. It is funny we can be around friends and she laughs when a friend of mine might say stuff like that to his wife, but when I do it she doesn't like it at all. Maybe because she isn't in love with me?
I do think she is in "like" with me, not "like, like", but definitely "like."
Be that as it may I need to stick with one single focus right now which is to eliminate the DJ's day by day. I don't have the capacity to work on all of it at one time and in the past I often felt overwhelmed by trying to be "perfect" at all times with her. If I can just prevent myself from being an occasional jerk then I should solve half my problems.
Aldo do you know her top EN?
How much UA time are you getting? What are you doing during this time?
Dates?
Aldo do you know her top EN?
How much UA time are you getting? What are you doing during this time?
Dates?
H&O
UA time has been lagging during summer with kids staying up later.
We go out 1 night a week, tonight being that night for four hours and always have a fabulous time.
Well my friend .. moods are infectious ... WHen my wifes mood is all down in the dumps I don't let her mood change mine. I can often times let her words/bad mood roll off my back when she "attacks me verbally for whatever random/various reason that wives generate" and let her know that I am not going to feed into her crap or fight with her ... she gets mad at first says some nasty things .. but later thanks me for not putting up with her crap and tells me it helps her get out of her funk.. True Story!
Well my friend .. moods are infectious ... WHen my wifes mood is all down in the dumps I don't let her mood change mine. I can often times let her words/bad mood roll off my back when she "attacks me verbally for whatever random/various reason that wives generate" and let her know that I am not going to feed into her crap or fight with her ... she gets mad at first says some nasty things .. but later thanks me for not putting up with her crap and tells me it helps her get out of her funk.. True Story!
Yes I believe I have a low tolerance for bad moods because I grew up in a house where my Dad would effect the entire house based on his mood. Yes I need to master ignoring my wife's mood. It is also worth mentioning that any DJ's that come out are related to her being Disrespectful to me numerous times which builds up, OR because I feel neglected and ignored. We don't fight about much of anything other than retaliation or when I bring up that I'm unhappy.
I was as cocky as they came when we were dating ...
And then she married you right? .. where did that guy go? where did the guy who rolls with the punches go? The laid bacj guy who is not desperate but still enjoyes time with his wife so she doesnt feel pressured.
I am not saying use my exact lines of being cocky/funny .. you must cater to your wifes humor... those were just examples.
If you are not happy with yourself ... and feeling down and desperate and emitting that energy to your wife ... how can she respect that? Stop placing your happiness on your wife. BE HAPPY YOURSELF... however you can accomplish that. This will infect your wife!
Think about the things i have said ... and do not regurgitate your emotions over hidden expectations that you place on your wife. Take ACtion!
Good job on making headway on your DJ's !
MNG
I was as cocky as they came when we were dating ...
And then she married you right? .. where did that guy go? where did the guy who rolls with the punches go? The laid bacj guy who is not desperate but still enjoyes time with his wife so she doesnt feel pressured.
I am not saying use my exact lines of being cocky/funny .. you must cater to your wifes humor... those were just examples.
If you are not happy with yourself ... and feeling down and desperate and emitting that energy to your wife ... how can she respect that? Stop placing your happiness on your wife. BE HAPPY YOURSELF... however you can accomplish that. This will infect your wife!
Think about the things i have said ... and do not regurgitate your emotions over hidden expectations that you place on your wife. Take ACtion!
Good job on making headway on your DJ's !
MNG
I hear you loud and clear. I'm very happy actually. Financially things are amazing. My kids are growing and developing and I love being a Dad. I'm an active runner and my wife and I support each other in races rather than fight each other which is how it used to be. In fact sometimes when we have sitters we run together. When I say I'm unhappy I'm specifically talking about my marriage. I want to be in love and be very into each other and I know this is possible. On the outside looking in it appears my wife doesn't have that same need or desire. She never says she is unhappy or at least very rarely.
As an alternative to ignoring her mood, I would say focus on learning to be calm regardless of her mood. Her moods and feelings are important for you to recognize and respond to! It's just important that if she gets emotional, you do not become upset, or worse, abusive (demanding/disrespectful/angry). Even if she becomes abusive.
As an alternative to ignoring her mood, I would say focus on learning to be calm regardless of her mood. Her moods and feelings are important for you to recognize and respond to! It's just important that if she gets emotional, you do not become upset, or worse, abusive (demanding/disrespectful/angry). Even if she becomes abusive.
Yes this is a good point. I asked myself just yesterday, "what would I want/need from my wife if or when I was in a bad mood?" The answer was understanding and acknowledging my problem. Historically neither one of us have shown great care or concern for the other when it comes to stress, being in a bad mood, or even being sick. We joke about each other being the least comforting person either one of us know. The truth is that it is not a joke, it is actually very very sad. We have gotten better at this skill, particularly me. So since my wife is in a bad mood usually a few times a day my plan is to acknowledge and understand the cause of her moodiness diligently rather than try and provide a solution(that'll get you nowhere) or to get irritated that "she's in a bad mood again."
***Roll Call Day Two - This is a NO DJ Zone***
I was as cocky as they came when we were dating ...
And then she married you right? .. where did that guy go? where did the guy who rolls with the punches go? The laid bacj guy who is not desperate but still enjoyes time with his wife so she doesnt feel pressured.
I am not saying use my exact lines of being cocky/funny .. you must cater to your wifes humor... those were just examples.
If you are not happy with yourself ... and feeling down and desperate and emitting that energy to your wife ... how can she respect that? Stop placing your happiness on your wife. BE HAPPY YOURSELF... however you can accomplish that. This will infect your wife!
Think about the things i have said ... and do not regurgitate your emotions over hidden expectations that you place on your wife. Take ACtion!
Good job on making headway on your DJ's !
MNG
I hear you loud and clear. I'm very happy actually. Financially things are amazing. My kids are growing and developing and I love being a Dad. I'm an active runner and my wife and I support each other in races rather than fight each other which is how it used to be. In fact sometimes when we have sitters we run together. When I say I'm unhappy I'm specifically talking about my marriage. I want to be in love and be very into each other and I know this is possible. On the outside looking in it appears my wife doesn't have that same need or desire. She never says she is unhappy or at least very rarely.
Does she run with others?
That is recreational time. Who does she run with when you don't have babysitter?
By the way, I'm an avid runner too.
I was as cocky as they came when we were dating ...
And then she married you right? .. where did that guy go? where did the guy who rolls with the punches go? The laid bacj guy who is not desperate but still enjoyes time with his wife so she doesnt feel pressured.
I am not saying use my exact lines of being cocky/funny .. you must cater to your wifes humor... those were just examples.
If you are not happy with yourself ... and feeling down and desperate and emitting that energy to your wife ... how can she respect that? Stop placing your happiness on your wife. BE HAPPY YOURSELF... however you can accomplish that. This will infect your wife!
Think about the things i have said ... and do not regurgitate your emotions over hidden expectations that you place on your wife. Take ACtion!
Good job on making headway on your DJ's !
MNG
I hear you loud and clear. I'm very happy actually. Financially things are amazing. My kids are growing and developing and I love being a Dad. I'm an active runner and my wife and I support each other in races rather than fight each other which is how it used to be. In fact sometimes when we have sitters we run together. When I say I'm unhappy I'm specifically talking about my marriage. I want to be in love and be very into each other and I know this is possible. On the outside looking in it appears my wife doesn't have that same need or desire. She never says she is unhappy or at least very rarely.
Does she run with others?
That is recreational time. Who does she run with when you don't have babysitter?
By the way, I'm an avid runner too.
A close girlfriend. If I didn't have a stress fracture we'd run more together than we do now. In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
Wonderful! The gym is a GREAT place for UA time.
***Roll Call Day Two - This is a NO DJ Zone***
Great! None so far?
I have a list somewhere where I put together about twelve categoies of disrespectful judgments. They are so incredibly hard to spot. I'll try to find that list for you and post it.
Excellent radio clips on DJs and AO. Dr. Harley even talks about how he has had to deal with his own anger. He says DJs to him are the one thing that can set him off.
Also excellent radio clips.
Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on DJ/AO Segment #2 Segment #3 Segment #4
In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
Wonderful! The gym is a GREAT place for UA time.
You and Markos must love each other a lot then. The last time my wife and I tried to workout together, I thought we were going to kill each other. Of course, we have totally different goals when it comes to training. She wants to use machines and get on the eliptical. I want to pull heavy deadlift singles in the 500s or powercleans. Maybe drag up and db bench some 120s. I want to feel like my eyeballs are about to pop out of their sockets. I don't want to talk except to ask to pass the chalk or maybe a spot on the bench. My wife is not nearly strong enough to spot me on teh bench nor does she want to.
And a few of the guys I train with whom have wives are a lot like my wife. So she goes off with the other wives and they do their style of working out and we guys off and be uncivilized animals.
In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
Wonderful! The gym is a GREAT place for UA time.
You and Markos must love each other a lot then. The last time my wife and I tried to workout together, I thought we were going to kill each other. Of course, we have totally different goals when it comes to training. She wants to use machines and get on the eliptical. I want to pull heavy deadlift singles in the 500s or powercleans. Maybe drag up and db bench some 120s. I want to feel like my eyeballs are about to pop out of their sockets. I don't want to talk except to ask to pass the chalk or maybe a spot on the bench. My wife is not nearly strong enough to spot me on teh bench nor does she want to.
And a few of the guys I train with whom have wives are a lot like my wife. So she goes off with the other wives and they do their style of working out and we guys off and be uncivilized animals.
Our goal is UA, kilted.
Hill, have you thought about when you get home and see she's in a bad mood to bust out with a, "Is there anything I can help you with honey?"
And Markos still gets to do his animalistic heavy weight lifting, which is kinda sexy
In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
Wonderful! The gym is a GREAT place for UA time.
Yes I did laps and she hit the treadmill. Things are going well.
In fact this morning we are dropping off the kids and going to the gym.
Wonderful! The gym is a GREAT place for UA time.
You and Markos must love each other a lot then. The last time my wife and I tried to workout together, I thought we were going to kill each other. Of course, we have totally different goals when it comes to training. She wants to use machines and get on the eliptical. I want to pull heavy deadlift singles in the 500s or powercleans. Maybe drag up and db bench some 120s. I want to feel like my eyeballs are about to pop out of their sockets. I don't want to talk except to ask to pass the chalk or maybe a spot on the bench. My wife is not nearly strong enough to spot me on teh bench nor does she want to.
And a few of the guys I train with whom have wives are a lot like my wife. So she goes off with the other wives and they do their style of working out and we guys off and be uncivilized animals.
My wife is coming around on the workout together thing. We did one time several years ago and I was a know it all jerk so we never did again. I've proven that I won't do that again so she is much more ok with it whereas before it was a no go.
Hill, have you thought about when you get home and see she's in a bad mood to bust out with a, "Is there anything I can help you with honey?"
Yes I constantly assist and I'm very hands on with dishes, baths, changing kids, and I cook dinner and breakfast daily. She prefers to handle laundry but it still overwhelms her. The fluff and fold thing was a rip off so we decided not to do that again. Handyman starts Tuesday, 3 hours a week indefinitely so we are both excited about that.
And Markos still gets to do his animalistic heavy weight lifting, which is kinda sexy
Markos, how about I get on one side and you get on the other and we see if we can out-lift Kilted Thrower?
I was training for an Xterra 18k out here in the Santa Monica mountains and ended up with a stress fracture in my upper tibia. Stationary bike still kind of irritated it so I got some goggles and hit the pool. I can't really kick so I swam for an hour "all arms" and to be honest I'm toast. Don't worry I left out the speedo!
I was grilling this evening for the family and my wife came out and gave me a kiss. Today is Day 3 of the No DJ zone. There were a couple of close calls, but I used my noggin and suppressed that reaction.
Did you ever get around to listening to the clips? If you don't want to listen that's fine then I won't spend my time finding clips for you.
Did you ever get around to listening to the clips? If you don't want to listen that's fine then I won't spend my time finding clips for you.
I did not listen to the clips. I have to pick and choose my battles and since my wife is not a fan of MB then it is difficult to find time to listen to clips. I also don't really have a commute any longer, but thanks for the time and effort.
Hilltopper,
When you say day 3 of no DJ Zone, do you mean you have just started MB program of ending Love Busters?
also regarding audio clips MB has an IPHONE app on their website;
it works great
Hilltopper,
When you say day 3 of no DJ Zone, do you mean you have just started MB program of ending Love Busters?
Gosh no. It means that I will no longer give myself a break about DJing my wife even if she DJs me. The pattern over the past year or more has been me getting upset because my needs are not met or neglect or both. I let it build and then snap with a zinger of a DJ even though I know that that strategy doesn't work. I've zeroed in on those DJs as a barrier to getting my wife to fall back in love with me. I've been working very hard on meeting her EN's only to ruin it about once every 4-5 days with a DJ. To simplify my task and not get so overwhelmed with the feeling that I have to be perfect, I decided to created my own roll call about each day that I go 24 hours without DJing my wife. Today is the beginning of Day 4. I'm restless. SF is my #1 EN and its been long enough to where I'm irritable and so I'm overcoming my emotions with my mind and being extra cautious not to let a DJ slip and ruin the progress. My goal is to do this until she crosses that threshold. If she never does then I'll come back and add another goal to track in the same manner.
I think you may need to cut your running to spend more time with her.
Maybe just do 5K and 10K races with her on the weekends
I think you may need to cut your running to spend more time with her.
I would agree with you if spending time together was the problem. It used to be actually but we both realized and understood the importance and we will get probably 20 hours together on a great week and maybe 10-12 on a bad one. Remember I have an unwilling participant in MB so asking her to meet my needs can be tough. For example I sent her a text 10 mins ago about working out together, then put kids down, then massage, then xoxo! After texting all morning back and forth, I got no response from this text. The UA time is not optimal because the feelings of romantic love aren't back yet for her. I can't spend as much time as I spent with her this weekend which was fabulous, and then get emotional and shoot out a DJ that in essence points out what a bad person she is for not meeting my needs, you know? That has been my pattern and I must break it.
Great work, Hill! I would say it sounds like you are right on the money.
You will find that after it has been "a long time" (that could be a few days, or a few weeks) since you have been disrespectful, things show some signs of changing.
Great work, Hill! I would say it sounds like you are right on the money.
You will find that after it has been "a long time" (that could be a few days, or a few weeks) since you have been disrespectful, things show some signs of changing.
Yep sure hope so. We spend more time than we ever have together and I can honestly say after being her 4th or 5th choice to hang out with I'm back to #1. I just need to turn the "best buddy" time into "best romantic buddy" time, and I cannot do that if I continue to DJ my wife.
I think in the past I would keep that scoreboard that said if she can DJ me then it'll be even if I DJ her. She can DJ me all she wants is what I've decided, but it doesn't mean I'll do it back. At some point she'll see that she has no reason to DJ me.
For example I sent her a text 10 mins ago about working out together, then put kids down, then massage, then xoxo! After texting all morning back and forth, I got no response from this text.
Well if you specified the xoxo then she may be feeling pressure she doesn't like. I know some women who feel like their men (and I have NO idea whether or not YOU do) have badgered them for SF get really sensitive about any suggestion for SF. I'm just saying maybe try to do something like a massage without any expectations a couple times. I know this will be difficult but maybe your wife might need it to feel loved? You know physical affection that doesn't lead to SF?
For example I sent her a text 10 mins ago about working out together, then put kids down, then massage, then xoxo! After texting all morning back and forth, I got no response from this text.
Well if you specified the xoxo then she may be feeling pressure she doesn't like. I know some women who feel like their men (and I have NO idea whether or not YOU do) have badgered them for SF get really sensitive about any suggestion for SF. I'm just saying maybe try to do something like a massage without any expectations a couple times. I know this will be difficult but maybe your wife might need it to feel loved? You know physical affection that doesn't lead to SF?
We are well past that stage in this journey and there was a time yes that I definitely DJ'd my wife about SF. She has made it clear that she wants me to ask for things, SF being one of them. This doesn't mean that she won't say no and I've learned(am learning) how to deal with that. The act itself is typically very "chore-like" which hurts me deeply but I think will change when she crosses that threshold of love.
We are well past that stage in this journey and there was a time yes that I definitely DJ'd my wife about SF. She has made it clear that she wants me to ask for things, SF being one of them. This doesn't mean that she won't say no and I've learned(am learning) how to deal with that. The act itself is typically very "chore-like" which hurts me deeply but I think will change when she crosses that threshold of love.
Yes it is very hard to deal with "no". I'm learning that myself. But keep up the good work with the no DJ's. Hopefully it will make all the difference.
Hill, I'm sure you've been told this but while you may not be able to control how you feel, you do control how you respond. A simple, "I understand that you're upset, if you'd like to talk about it, I'd love to listen." Leave it there. If she snaps at you, repeat, "I understand that you're upset but please do not snap at me/raise your voice at me/speak down to me/"etc (whatever it is). You do not snap at her, yell at her, disrespect her, etc.
You simply verify how she is feeling, let her know you are open to discuss, but you will not be treated or spoken to poorly. My wife used to be the queen of speaking disrespectfully to me. It is very rare that that she is anymore and it gets nipped in the bud quickly. However I can't respond to her ina jerk tone telling her not to treat me like a jerk. YOu have to lead the example.
Hill, I'm sure you've been told this but while you may not be able to control how you feel, you do control how you respond. A simple, "I understand that you're upset, if you'd like to talk about it, I'd love to listen." Leave it there. If she snaps at you, repeat, "I understand that you're upset but please do not snap at me/raise your voice at me/speak down to me/"etc (whatever it is). You do not snap at her, yell at her, disrespect her, etc.
You simply verify how she is feeling, let her know you are open to discuss, but you will not be treated or spoken to poorly. My wife used to be the queen of speaking disrespectfully to me. It is very rare that that she is anymore and it gets nipped in the bud quickly. However I can't respond to her ina jerk tone telling her not to treat me like a jerk. YOu have to lead the example.
Yes that is what I'm doing is leading by example. Small example just now. I was cleaning up after a messy dinner last night and put a yogurt our 18 mo old was eating in the fridge and failed to put tin foil on it. I was just home for lunch and my wife said, "Do you really think baby will eat this now since there was no foil on this?" She wasn't asking a question mind you and she has left baby's food on counter, in cars, and everywhere else every day for a year. I just figured she is a busy mom with three kids and it's intense and if you leave some thing out and it goes bad then that is just part of life so I never say anything to her about it. I did it just this one time and she sent a snide comment my way. My heart told me to point out her hypocrisy and ask her who she thought she was to be the pot calling the kettle black. I did not. I just apologized. The way I view the world is that people can behave anyway they want, but the moment they cross the line into the hypocrisy zone it really irks me. I tend to take the path of least resistance I suppose. My solution to seeing something left out that is bad is to just throw it away. My wife sees thing differently, she wants to point it out and sometimes do it with disrespect. I have no problem letting her know when something bothers me, but for now I need to work on eliminating my DJs for a week or two before I add another step.
Hill, you might find that as your DJs go down in frequency, hers will too. Also, as her love bank fills it could get better.
Sometimes when my H and I are having a rough time, I find myself pointing out everything that he is doing wrong. It's sort of a passive aggressive way to try to make the other person feel as bad as we do. It's a terrible habit but it's hard to admit to it in the moment.
I find that if my H responds negatively, I feel justified in being negative. If he doesn't, I feel guilty afterward.
Good job. But if you feel her comment is snide and a swipe at you, then it's okay to point that out.
"Oh I'm sorry, I'll remember foil when I put foods in the fridge from now on. Next time I'd appreciate it if you just stated your request. I feel insulted by the way you brought that to my attention." Then tell her you love her and ask her how her day was.
Good job. But if you feel her comment is snide and a swipe at you, then it's okay to point that out.
"Oh I'm sorry, I'll remember foil when I put foods in the fridge from now on. Next time I'd appreciate it if you just stated your request. I feel insulted by the way you brought that to my attention." Then tell her you love her and ask her how her day was.
I don't know about this kilted_thrower. After all she isn't fully on board with MB and assuming that she meant that comment as an insult could be a DJ? I think I'm right in that. Considering that he is trying to FILL not DEPLETE her love bank so he can get her on board with this plan I don't know that responding that way would be effective at the moment.
Hill, you might find that as your DJs go down in frequency, hers will too. Also, as her love bank fills it could get better.
Sometimes when my H and I are having a rough time, I find myself pointing out everything that he is doing wrong. It's sort of a passive aggressive way to try to make the other person feel as bad as we do. It's a terrible habit but it's hard to admit to it in the moment.
I find that if my H responds negatively, I feel justified in being negative. If he doesn't, I feel guilty afterward.
So true. That really resonates. I've seen the aftermath both ways. I've seen when I don't react, she always come back to me and do something nice for/to me. If I do react poorly she never apologizes and we continue the conflict.
I don't know about this kilted_thrower. After all she isn't fully on board with MB and assuming that she meant that comment as an insult could be a DJ? I think I'm right in that. Considering that he is trying to FILL not DEPLETE her love bank so he can get her on board with this plan I don't know that responding that way would be effective at the moment.
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't an MB specific thing. Hill feels disrespected by the way his wife is talking down to him.
Think about if your husband were to say to you, "you're silly for thinking like that." Well, you'd feel insulted. He might not have meant it as an insult and doesn't view it as an insult. However, out of respect for you when you tell him you feel insulted when he says that to you, he should stop.
If she tries to argue with him, that's okay. He then simply says, "I'm simply telling you how I feel and nothing more." Then he changes the subject. So he can continue to feel insulted over and over again and she continues her disrespectful interaction and he eventually blows up or he can do drive by honesty.
My wife is notorious for setting stuff down and then forgetting where she put it. I kept saying to her, "if you'd just put your keys on the key holder, then you'd know where they are." She finally said, "You know, I don't like it when you tell me that." I didn't feel my comment was disrespectful. But she did. And that's what matters. So I quit saying it to her.
Good job. But if you feel her comment is snide and a swipe at you, then it's okay to point that out.
"Oh I'm sorry, I'll remember foil when I put foods in the fridge from now on. Next time I'd appreciate it if you just stated your request. I feel insulted by the way you brought that to my attention." Then tell her you love her and ask her how her day was.
I don't know about this kilted_thrower. After all she isn't fully on board with MB and assuming that she meant that comment as an insult could be a DJ? I think I'm right in that. Considering that he is trying to FILL not DEPLETE her love bank so he can get her on board with this plan I don't know that responding that way would be effective at the moment.
That is correct, if I didn't convey that very well, I will now. She meant it 100% as a DJ. Secondly since she is not on board with MB, but knows the lingo since she participated in the forums for about 3 months, she'll get a bad taste in her mouth that I'm preaching. I'm kind of trying to do the MB program incognito.
I don't know about this kilted_thrower. After all she isn't fully on board with MB and assuming that she meant that comment as an insult could be a DJ? I think I'm right in that. Considering that he is trying to FILL not DEPLETE her love bank so he can get her on board with this plan I don't know that responding that way would be effective at the moment.
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't an MB specific thing. Hill feels disrespected by the way his wife is talking down to him.
Think about if your husband were to say to you, "you're silly for thinking like that." Well, you'd feel insulted. He might not have meant it as an insult and doesn't view it as an insult. However, out of respect for you when you tell him you feel insulted when he says that to you, he should stop.
If she tries to argue with him, that's okay. He then simply says, "I'm simply telling you how I feel and nothing more." Then he changes the subject. So he can continue to feel insulted over and over again and she continues her disrespectful interaction and he eventually blows up or he can do drive by honesty.
My wife is notorious for setting stuff down and then forgetting where she put it. I kept saying to her, "if you'd just put your keys on the key holder, then you'd know where they are." She finally said, "You know, I don't like it when you tell me that." I didn't feel my comment was disrespectful. But she did. And that's what matters. So I quit saying it to her.
A lot of truth here. We've had issues in the past where my wife doesn't respect the way I might feel about something. It is exactly as if to say, "you're stupid for feeling that way." In this particular case she could tell I felt insulted and followed it up with the usual, "I didn't mean it that way" comment. She has tougher skin than I do for sure, she grew in what I would consider an extremely disrespectful environment, and I've seen her mother insult her in some horrible ways and follow it up with a very matter of fact, "so would you like a cup of tea?" She calls me hyper-sensitive, but I consider myself quite normal and a person who knows the difference between an insult and a non-insult.
That is correct, if I didn't convey that very well, I will now. She meant it 100% as a DJ. Secondly since she is not on board with MB, but knows the lingo since she participated in the forums for about 3 months, she'll get a bad taste in her mouth that I'm preaching. I'm kind of trying to do the MB program incognito.
Since she knows the lingo, and was participating for awhile, it is possible she knows she's being demanding/disrespectful. It is possible that she's testing you, to see if you have really stopped the DJs on your part, or if you're going to revert to your old habits and lash out at her again.
That is correct, if I didn't convey that very well, I will now. She meant it 100% as a DJ. Secondly since she is not on board with MB, but knows the lingo since she participated in the forums for about 3 months, she'll get a bad taste in her mouth that I'm preaching. I'm kind of trying to do the MB program incognito.
Since she knows the lingo, and was participating for awhile, it is possible she knows she's being demanding/disrespectful. It is possible that she's testing you, to see if you have really stopped the DJs on your part, or if you're going to revert to your old habits and lash out at her again.
Perhaps subconsciously. She is just kind of abrasive you know? Always has been and admits it readily. There are levels of DJs and although she DJs me quite frequently, my retaliations were the "meant to hurt and sting you" kind. I'm ashamed to say I have a gift for that which I am avoiding at all costs.
As an alternative to ignoring her mood, I would say focus on learning to be calm regardless of her mood. Her moods and feelings are important for you to recognize and respond to! It's just important that if she gets emotional, you do not become upset, or worse, abusive (demanding/disrespectful/angry). Even if she becomes abusive.
Everything i had said prior to this comment was a practical way of saying the same thing really just alot more descriptive ... something you could grasp and DO. My approach was not for him to IGNORE her feelings as you think I was saying .. but rather not let it bother him so much (yes i understand she will expect a response but it should be a laid back response and not return her outbursts for an outburst of his own)IE: Roll with the punches.
Take notes on her PMS time (i found this very important so I could pre determine he bad moods) ... etc ... and prepare for those times mentally and give your wife some grace for those times. I also mentioned that Hills wife would test him to see if his new "im not going to let your emotional outbursts effect me" attitude is real or not .. this "testing period" may last for a while until she feels its really true.
(re read my practical approach to rolling with the punches on page 139) that Approach works like this for me now ..
-2 weeks of "my wife can hardly keep her hands off me"
-1 week of "im the most horrible jerk in the world and DONT even think about touching me"
-1 Week of HER sucking up for her terrible emotional outbursts with TONS of thank yous for not letting it get to me and not putting up with her emotionally charged PMS week and not taking things she said seriously during that time as she says herself "during my PMS week i often dont realy know what i want and get mad for the silliest of reasons and later regret getting mad at all". I get constantly thanked for not being so sensitive anymore .. and Rolling with the punches when i dont get my needs met in a timely manner. That approach (written on page 139) allows me to be more in control of myself rather then let my unmet needs create an emotional outburst. This is me though .. and its working great for us. Combine that with the MB principals and we have GOLD! (my wife is MADLY in love with me now BTW and loves this approach that I have incorporated into myself)
Keep up the good work Hill, hopefully things turn around for you ... Keep the DJs from coming out .. stop projecting desperate energy towards your wife in regards to SF and things WILL turn around.
MNG
As an alternative to ignoring her mood, I would say focus on learning to be calm regardless of her mood. Her moods and feelings are important for you to recognize and respond to! It's just important that if she gets emotional, you do not become upset, or worse, abusive (demanding/disrespectful/angry). Even if she becomes abusive.
Everything i had said prior to this comment was a practical way of saying the same thing really just alot more descriptive ... something you could grasp and DO. My approach was not for him to IGNORE her feelings as you think I was saying .. but rather not let it bother him so much (yes i understand she will expect a response but it should be a laid back response and not return her outbursts for an outburst of his own)IE: Roll with the punches.
Take notes on her PMS time (i found this very important so I could pre determine he bad moods) ... etc ... and prepare for those times mentally and give your wife some grace for those times. I also mentioned that Hills wife would test him to see if his new "im not going to let your emotional outbursts effect me" attitude is real or not .. this "testing period" may last for a while until she feels its really true.
(re read my practical approach to rolling with the punches on page 139) that Approach works like this for me now ..
-2 weeks of "my wife can hardly keep her hands off me"
-1 week of "im the most horrible jerk in the world and DONT even think about touching me"
-1 Week of HER sucking up for her terrible emotional outbursts with TONS of thank yous for not letting it get to me and not putting up with her emotionally charged PMS week and not taking things she said seriously during that time as she says herself "during my PMS week i often dont realy know what i want and get mad for the silliest of reasons and later regret getting mad at all". I get constantly thanked for not being so sensitive anymore .. and Rolling with the punches when i dont get my needs met in a timely manner. That approach (written on page 139) allows me to be more in control of myself rather then let my unmet needs create an emotional outburst. This is me though .. and its working great for us. Combine that with the MB principals and we have GOLD! (my wife is MADLY in love with me now BTW and loves this approach that I have incorporated into myself)
Keep up the good work Hill, hopefully things turn around for you ... Keep the DJs from coming out .. stop projecting desperate energy towards your wife in regards to SF and things WILL turn around.
MNG
Interesting. I'd say PMS week is a few days away then, so I'll watch out for it!
Its like a swing of a pendulum. 2 weeks it swings in my favor the other 2 weeks its not.
BTW heres how i track the PMS. Soon as her period comes i take note. THEN i move ahead 21 days in my personal blackberry calendar and set an alarm for the day her mood will be out of wack due to PMS. It may be out by a day or two but at least then I can prepare myself for the emotional turmoil that brings. This allows me to keep the outbursts at a minimum as i give grace for the next 2 weeks (pms week and period week) Usually by the time PMS week is over ... or nearing over .. is when the appologies start to roll in and the thank yous as her head clears of her PMS fog and she is able to function with normal horomone levels.
This way its no surprise when it happens ... becasue before it seemed it would sneak up on us and i would react negativly and wonder where my wife went. Well its clockwork now ... and if i dont keep track of it my wife gets rather disappointed becasue she likes the warning that its coming or any day now .. etc. This helps her with her co-workers too .. so she can perpare herself to not get bent out of shape with the other ladies in her office and helps her bite her tongue when she would normally have lashed out at others as well and not just me.
MNG
Its like a swing of a pendulum. 2 weeks it swings in my favor the other 2 weeks its not.
BTW heres how i track the PMS. Soon as her period comes i take note. THEN i move ahead 21 days in my personal blackberry calendar and set an alarm for the day her mood will be out of wack due to PMS. It may be out by a day or two but at least then I can prepare myself for the emotional turmoil that brings. This allows me to keep the outbursts at a minimum as i give grace for the next 2 weeks (pms week and period week) Usually by the time PMS week is over ... or nearing over .. is when the appologies start to roll in and the thank yous as her head clears of her PMS fog and she is able to function with normal horomone levels.
This way its no surprise when it happens ... becasue before it seemed it would sneak up on us and i would react negativly and wonder where my wife went. Well its clockwork now ... and if i dont keep track of it my wife gets rather disappointed becasue she likes the warning that its coming or any day now .. etc. This helps her with her co-workers too .. so she can perpare herself to not get bent out of shape with the other ladies in her office and helps her bite her tongue when she would normally have lashed out at others as well and not just me.
MNG
We'll definitely get a grasp of when PMS rolls around because I could swear my wife disappears for an entire week frequently. I've heard the apologies as well.
Hill, tread lightly on the PMS talk. MrNiceGuys wife might be okay with it but I find it frustrating when my H blames me being upset on PMS. It feels like he is dismissing my concern.
I think it's okay to be aware of mood changes if your wife has them and you can talk about them if she openly talks about them. But, don't blame an issue she brings up on PMS, still listen to the concern.
Hill, tread lightly on the PMS talk. MrNiceGuys wife might be okay with it but I find it frustrating when my H blames me being upset on PMS. It feels like he is dismissing my concern.
I think it's okay to be aware of mood changes if your wife has them and you can talk about them if she openly talks about them. But, don't blame an issue she brings up on PMS, still listen to the concern.
Oh i agree ... you DEF have to feel it out on how you mention it ... I usually bring it up that PMS is approaching BEFORE it happens(90% of the time). Its TABOO to mention it during a HEATED conversation .. its best to zip the lip and say nothing instead if the heat is already turned up for whatever reason is generated. DOnt want to get BURNED.
Mind you I have mentioned on occasion that my wifes attitude is just PMS (especially when you can prove it after months of following the patterns and then show her) ALOT of women are in denial during this time and THAT can cause some un necessary drama in and of itself (especially if the dont want to hear it or their attitudes are blown out of proportion). MANY times it IS in fact PMS (yes their concerns are valid) but you must maintain control of your emotions during this time. Be consistantly and emotionaly stable!
So yes .. i agree .. use caution when you mention the PMS issue. CHOOSE your battles wisely. Here is a few Bible quotes for you to absorb.
Proverbs 27:15
A quarrelsome wife is like the dripping of a leaky roof in a rain storm; restraining her is like restraining the wind or grasping oil with your hands.
-This is where us guys must LEAD the home with our calm assertive approach and not let our wives emotional outbursts get to us and bring us into an emotional outburst of our own in retaliation. Be strong .. but calm. If not .. watch out for the next verse!
Proverbs 26:21 As charcoal to embers and as wood to fire; so is a quarrelsome person for kindling strife.
(sorry ladies its true for the most part)
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting (and by the way, I just finished my period about a week ago, so no, this opinion is not the result of PMS).
I know some women suffer from bad PMS. If your wife is suffering this badly for 2 weeks out of every month, then she needs to go to the doctor, because that isn't normal.
I have suffered from some level of PMS occasionally, but never to a level where things like this were happening. In fact, last month, my period just showed up with no warning at all. Not a lick of PMS. I felt no different emotionally or physically than normal. Actually, I've been having a much rougher time emotionally this week than I did the week prior to or during my period, mostly because of issues going on in my life, not hormones.
Hormones can be a problem for some women, but if it's truly this severe, have your wife go to the doctor and get some help. I resent MrNiceGuy's assumption that all women are emotional wrecks for 2 weeks out of every month.
Hill, tread lightly on the PMS talk. MrNiceGuys wife might be okay with it but I find it frustrating when my H blames me being upset on PMS. It feels like he is dismissing my concern.
I think it's okay to be aware of mood changes if your wife has them and you can talk about them if she openly talks about them. But, don't blame an issue she brings up on PMS, still listen to the concern.
I approach things differently from Mr Nice Guy and I understand that relationships are all very different. The take away for me is to be aware of my wife's cycle so that I can adjust and adapt as needed, not to bring it up, in fact bringing it up unsolicited could be taken as a DJ by her part anyways.
Also, the only blaming that has gone on in the past in regards to PMS is my wife. I don't believe it is ok for the wife to run roughshod when she is PMSing, just like I don't think it is ok for the husband to blame anything and everything on PMSing rather than his wife's behavior. Awareness can only help.
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting (and by the way, I just finished my period about a week ago, so no, this opinion is not the result of PMS).
I know some women suffer from bad PMS. If your wife is suffering this badly for 2 weeks out of every month, then she needs to go to the doctor, because that isn't normal.
I have suffered from some level of PMS occasionally, but never to a level where things like this were happening. In fact, last month, my period just showed up with no warning at all. Not a lick of PMS. I felt no different emotionally or physically than normal. Actually, I've been having a much rougher time emotionally this week than I did the week prior to or during my period, mostly because of issues going on in my life, not hormones.
Hormones can be a problem for some women, but if it's truly this severe, have your wife go to the doctor and get some help. I resent MrNiceGuy's assumption that all women are emotional wrecks for 2 weeks out of every month.
I understand. No major issues related to PMS here. For the most part my wife can get grumpy several times per day because of kids, house, etc. I've mentioned before she gets overwhelmed extremely easily so I've hired a handyman and explored the fluff and fold laundry service as two possible solutions. We decided the fluff and fold was just way too expensive, but the handyman starts this morning to do 3 hours a week worth of stuff indefinitely. I bartered with him to do some marketing for a lower hourly rate to make it affordable. I've learned to find solutions to my wife's problems outside of my own physical participation as I'm only one man and there are only so many hours in the day. If I can remove some of the things that overwhelm her then she'll be less grumpy which will give me other opportunities to fill her love bank.
****Yesterday Was Day #4 of the NO DJ Zone****
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting
NO KIDDING! I don't think this is Marriage Builders advice. Any time you start psychoanalyzing your spouse, or saying that their feelings are "just" because of whatever cause (e.g. PMS), you are probably saying something that your spouse would find highly disrespectful!
There used to be some humorous poster/T-shirt in the nineties about "the rules" for dealing with women. It was all about PMS, and basically amounted to "PMS is an excuse for anything; only the woman can declare when PMS is occurring." Well, no joke, it's offensive to ladies for men to blame stuff on PMS. In fact in the days when I was coming of age it was deemed
sexual harassment by most women.
Telling your spouse what they think or why they do what they do is a love bank withdrawal. Just leave it alone. She doesn't want to feel analyzed like a lab experiment! There was a post earlier on this thread saying essentially "give her some extra grace when she's in PMS." Well, we've already established that she is going to be testing him; she's going to be disrespectful for the foreseeable future, and the only way through for Hilltopper is to not become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in response. That's the whole month round, and whether it's caused by PMS or anything else. So give her some grace all the time, if grace means not becoming abusive in response to her abuse.
By the way, a woman can certainly learn to avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry during PMS, and the menstrual cycle does not mean that romantic love in a relationship has to vanish for 1-2 weeks a month.
Mind you I have mentioned on occasion that my wifes attitude is just PMS (especially when you can prove it after months of following the patterns and then show her) ALOT of women are in denial during this time and THAT can cause some un necessary drama in and of itself
I'm sorry, MNG, this is a disrespectful conversation for a man to have with his wife!
The word "just" is minimizing and disrespectful! i.e. "Your feelings are just caused by PMS (or anything else)" is minimizing and disrespectful!
"Proving it" is disrespectful. An extremely common mistake to make is to believe that something's not disrespectful if it's true, i.e., if you can prove it. Alas, not so.
Telling your wife she's "in denial"? Even thinking it but not saying it? Disrespectful.
A wife's feelings can change from moment to moment, for any number of causes. Being respectful means accepting her feelings as real and as valid. Incidentally, a husband's feelings can also do the same thing. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
****Yesterday Was Day #4 of the NO DJ Zone****
Keep it up!
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting
NO KIDDING! I don't think this is Marriage Builders advice. Any time you start psychoanalyzing your spouse, or saying that their feelings are "just" because of whatever cause (e.g. PMS), you are probably saying something that your spouse would find highly disrespectful!
There used to be some humorous poster/T-shirt in the nineties about "the rules" for dealing with women. It was all about PMS, and basically amounted to "PMS is an excuse for anything; only the woman can declare when PMS is occurring." Well, no joke, it's offensive to ladies for men to blame stuff on PMS. In fact in the days when I was coming of age it was deemed
sexual harassment by most women.
Telling your spouse what they think or why they do what they do is a love bank withdrawal. Just leave it alone. She doesn't want to feel analyzed like a lab experiment! There was a post earlier on this thread saying essentially "give her some extra grace when she's in PMS." Well, we've already established that she is going to be testing him; she's going to be disrespectful for the foreseeable future, and the only way through for Hilltopper is to not become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in response. That's the whole month round, and whether it's caused by PMS or anything else. So give her some grace all the time, if grace means not becoming abusive in response to her abuse.
Please elaborate more on the literature that you've read or history behind why my wife will "test" me. I know your story, so is this just your experience or does Dr H specifically point to some kind of testing phase while in the state of conflict?
I finally found my notes about categories of disrespectful judgments. They are not as organized as I'd like, but here they are:
sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions? body language?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531712#Post2531712expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful
attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind
I statements help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.
By the way, a woman can certainly learn to avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry during PMS, and the menstrual cycle does not mean that romantic love in a relationship has to vanish for 1-2 weeks a month.
Agreed, it doesn't have to vanish, but it would be wise IMHO to utilize tools that might assist us in understanding our spouses behavior. PMS is real, and there are times where I might need to be extra understanding to her situation should her hormones take over at times. Again, this does NOT mean she gets a free pass to run roughshod.
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting
NO KIDDING! I don't think this is Marriage Builders advice. Any time you start psychoanalyzing your spouse, or saying that their feelings are "just" because of whatever cause (e.g. PMS), you are probably saying something that your spouse would find highly disrespectful!
There used to be some humorous poster/T-shirt in the nineties about "the rules" for dealing with women. It was all about PMS, and basically amounted to "PMS is an excuse for anything; only the woman can declare when PMS is occurring." Well, no joke, it's offensive to ladies for men to blame stuff on PMS. In fact in the days when I was coming of age it was deemed
sexual harassment by most women.
Telling your spouse what they think or why they do what they do is a love bank withdrawal. Just leave it alone. She doesn't want to feel analyzed like a lab experiment! There was a post earlier on this thread saying essentially "give her some extra grace when she's in PMS." Well, we've already established that she is going to be testing him; she's going to be disrespectful for the foreseeable future, and the only way through for Hilltopper is to not become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in response. That's the whole month round, and whether it's caused by PMS or anything else. So give her some grace all the time, if grace means not becoming abusive in response to her abuse.
Please elaborate more on the literature that you've read or history behind why my wife will "test" me. I know your story, so is this just your experience or does Dr H specifically point to some kind of testing phase while in the state of conflict?
Yes, he says that on the radio, especially for men who've been abusive, their wives will test. It agrees very much with my experience. Prisca admits she has done it, both consciously and unconsciously.
By the way, a woman can certainly learn to avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry during PMS, and the menstrual cycle does not mean that romantic love in a relationship has to vanish for 1-2 weeks a month.
Agreed, it doesn't have to vanish, but it would be wise IMHO to utilize tools that might assist us in understanding our spouses behavior. PMS is real, and there are times where I might need to be extra understanding to her situation should her hormones take over at times. Again, this does NOT mean she gets a free pass to run roughshod.
I agree being aware of it can be helpful. But discussing it with her and telling her that "she's just having PMS"? You might as well plan to sleep on the couch.
Seriously, I personally am finding all of this placing the blame on PMS stuff very insulting
NO KIDDING! I don't think this is Marriage Builders advice. Any time you start psychoanalyzing your spouse, or saying that their feelings are "just" because of whatever cause (e.g. PMS), you are probably saying something that your spouse would find highly disrespectful!
There used to be some humorous poster/T-shirt in the nineties about "the rules" for dealing with women. It was all about PMS, and basically amounted to "PMS is an excuse for anything; only the woman can declare when PMS is occurring." Well, no joke, it's offensive to ladies for men to blame stuff on PMS. In fact in the days when I was coming of age it was deemed
sexual harassment by most women.
Telling your spouse what they think or why they do what they do is a love bank withdrawal. Just leave it alone. She doesn't want to feel analyzed like a lab experiment! There was a post earlier on this thread saying essentially "give her some extra grace when she's in PMS." Well, we've already established that she is going to be testing him; she's going to be disrespectful for the foreseeable future, and the only way through for Hilltopper is to not become demanding, disrespectful, or angry in response. That's the whole month round, and whether it's caused by PMS or anything else. So give her some grace all the time, if grace means not becoming abusive in response to her abuse.
Please elaborate more on the literature that you've read or history behind why my wife will "test" me. I know your story, so is this just your experience or does Dr H specifically point to some kind of testing phase while in the state of conflict?
Yes, he says that on the radio, especially for men who've been abusive, their wives will test. It agrees very much with my experience. Prisca admits she has done it, both consciously and unconsciously.
She tested me last night for sure. We had a massage + xoxo date last night. Instead we stayed up later because she wanted to watch a show. I didn't show disappointment at her saying that she no longer wanted to do massages. She then snuggled up with me in bed and told me she loved me and that was our "moment." Historically I would pout or toss a DJ her way but as a brave knight I passed the test. There will surely be more to come and I'll be prepared.
By the way, a woman can certainly learn to avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry during PMS, and the menstrual cycle does not mean that romantic love in a relationship has to vanish for 1-2 weeks a month.
Agreed, it doesn't have to vanish, but it would be wise IMHO to utilize tools that might assist us in understanding our spouses behavior. PMS is real, and there are times where I might need to be extra understanding to her situation should her hormones take over at times. Again, this does NOT mean she gets a free pass to run roughshod.
I agree being aware of it can be helpful. But discussing it with her and telling her that "she's just having PMS"? You might as well plan to sleep on the couch.
Agreed. I would NEVER bring this up, but I will take my own notes to be prepared so that I don't wreck my streak. Wrecking my streak is like resetting the LB back to zero, can I get an AMEN on that?
I finally found my notes about categories of disrespectful judgments. They are not as organized as I'd like, but here they are:
sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions? body language?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531712#Post2531712expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful
attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind
I statements help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.
Tough ones in here. I read this list 3 times over and will review periodically.
It was HUGE love buster when my H would say it was PMS just about anytime he thought I was out of line in something. I hated it. Sometimes PMS made me feel tense and I had to be careful about myself, but other times, it was because I was upset over something he had done or it was something else altogether.
After a while, I began to return the disrespect telling him whenever HE was grumpy or tense that he must have PMS. Kind of spiraled downward from there.
Many years ago, I learned to recognize my own symptoms and controlled myself. Now that I'm going through the whole menopausal thing, I find myself doing the same thing--doing what I need to do to overcome any feelings of tension, from whatever cause.
My H hasn't said blamed anything on my hormones in many years; it IS disrespectful. If he sees my tension, I find it so much more loving for him to simply be gentle and ask if anything is wrong and what can he do to help. Then he leaves it alone. I feel much better about him when he handles it that way.
I finally found my notes about categories of disrespectful judgments. They are not as organized as I'd like, but here they are:
sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions? body language?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531712#Post2531712expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful
attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind
I statements help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.
Tough ones in here. I read this list 3 times over and will review periodically.
Please let me know if you come up with any to add! Every so often I still come up with a new class of DJs I hadn't noticed before.
She tested me last night for sure. We had a massage + xoxo date last night. Instead we stayed up later because she wanted to watch a show. I didn't show disappointment at her saying that she no longer wanted to do massages. She then snuggled up with me in bed and told me she loved me and that was our "moment." Historically I would pout or toss a DJ her way but as a brave knight I passed the test. There will surely be more to come and I'll be prepared.
I think you did great. Since you (like me) have a history of not keeping your cool about things like this, she probably feels really ansy about it. But you keep calm, you remained affectionate. Pour it on!
For the record, Dr. Harley is a big advocate of cuddling in bed before you go to sleep, and when you wake up.
Agreed. I would NEVER bring this up, but I will take my own notes to be prepared so that I don't wreck my streak. Wrecking my streak is like resetting the LB back to zero, can I get an AMEN on that?
Yes!
Hill .. you GET it and you did awesome in keeping your cool and being the laid back, no big deal, kinda guy that your wife probably needs you to be..
I applaud you!
MY writing style in regards to what I said earlier was more "guy" talk ... take what you want from it. I also get it that the ladies would be offended by what I said. I kinda expected that. So I apologize for my abrasiveness.
I also agree that all relationships are different and that the romance doesn't have to dissolve for 2 of the 4 weeks of the month too .. I was simply noting the patterns of when my wife is more irritated than other times and usually my response to her when i don't give her grace, for those times, creates that tension .. and it MOST OFTEN happens during that pre menstral week. There is nothing wrong with her, its normal. OF COURSE its not going to be like that for every woman ALL the time .. I never said that.
Hill ...if you were offended by my style of interpretation of the emotional patterns in a large portion of women (notice i didnt say ALL cause that would be false). You have my apologies. I am just trying to be real with you here and not sugar coat it. It must be difficult when your wife is not on board with MB and it probably triggers some tension when its brought up.
Your doing great and keeping your DJs at bay. One day at a time. Its not easy. Keep it up man!
MNG
Hill .. you GET it and you did awesome in keeping your cool and being the laid back, no big deal, kinda guy that your wife probably needs you to be..
I applaud you!
MY writing style in regards to what I said earlier was more "guy" talk ... take what you want from it. I also get it that the ladies would be offended by what I said. I kinda expected that. So I apologize for my abrasiveness.
I also agree that all relationships are different and that the romance doesn't have to dissolve for 2 of the 4 weeks of the month too .. I was simply noting the patterns of when my wife is more irritated than other times and usually my response to her when i don't give her grace, for those times, creates that tension .. and it MOST OFTEN happens during that pre menstral week. There is nothing wrong with her, its normal. OF COURSE its not going to be like that for every woman ALL the time .. I never said that.
Hill ...if you were offended by my style of interpretation of the emotional patterns in a large portion of women (notice i didnt say ALL cause that would be false). You have my apologies. I am just trying to be real with you here and not sugar coat it. It must be difficult when your wife is not on board with MB and it probably triggers some tension when its brought up.
Your doing great and keeping your DJs at bay. One day at a time. Its not easy. Keep it up man!
MNG
I know how to read between the lines, its all good. I did however just have a frustrating moment. I wasn't disrespectful but I definitely showed disagreement in my face when my wife asked me to do something that I was not enthusiastic about doing. Historically, when she asks and I politely decline, she goes to DJs typically. She did that this time as well and I could tell she was irritated, but I didn't fall for it. She then came up with an alternative plan which I think definitely came with irritation, but not the kind she could point the finger at me for. I'm just irritated it happened is all and am venting.
Second thing I was irritated about was her critique of the handyman's work that I hired. Nothing goes without comment and this is no different and I stared at that guys face as she made a fuss about something he did and could see he felt exactly as I do when I do stuff around the house for her. I know, I know, it was important to HER, therefore she complained. I'm venting to you all because it is very difficult when you feel like there isn't anything you can do that is satisfactory. It comes with a complaint, every time and that is what I get a defeatist attitude about. Does that make sense?
Yup ... makes total sense. You also mentioned a few pages back that her hormonal time is any day now .. possibly its a contributing factor to her annoyance of the handy mans abilities, where it may not have been so "harsh" if it was 2 weeks from now?
My wife will tell me that sometimes things just "get to her" during that time .. where if it was not that time, it wouldn't normally bother her. She often asks me now if that time is approaching (relys on the fact i keep track of it because she doesn't often recognize when it comes unitl she puts her foot in her mouth with her co-workers or something then asks me if she is reading into things wrong or asks my opinion on her attitude) so she can learn to recognize her change in behaviors and reactions towards things. She is much better now and far less abrasive than she used to be and more in tune with herself than she ever has been thanks to MB ... and this approach i talk about.
Give lots of grace ... and keep your own attitude in check .. make light of things as often as you can(where ever it fits appropriately). Find humor and fun in daily things and try to make your wife laugh often. "comic relief" geared towards your wifes humor if you can.
You did well Hill .. cant always be on top of your game 100% of the time .. and nothing wrong with showing a sign if discontent in a respectful way. Just don't let it linger and stir your emotions. Be consistantly emotionally stable even when your wife is not. This will help diffuse the DJs on your part. Which is so far so good!
Looking forward to hearing *day 5 no DJing!*
MNG
Yup ... makes total sense. You also mentioned a few pages back that her hormonal time is any day now .. possibly its a contributing factor to her annoyance of the handy mans abilities, where it may not have been so "harsh" if it was 2 weeks from now?
My wife will tell me that sometimes things just "get to her" during that time .. where if it was not that time, it wouldn't normally bother her. She often asks me now if that time is approaching (relys on the fact i keep track of it because she doesn't often recognize when it comes unitl she puts her foot in her mouth with her co-workers or something then asks me if she is reading into things wrong or asks my opinion on her attitude) so she can learn to recognize her change in behaviors and reactions towards things. She is much better now and far less abrasive than she used to be and more in tune with herself than she ever has been thanks to MB ... and this approach i talk about.
Give lots of grace ... and keep your own attitude in check .. make light of things as often as you can(where ever it fits appropriately). Find humor and fun in daily things and try to make your wife laugh often. "comic relief" geared towards your wifes humor if you can.
You did well Hill .. cant always be on top of your game 100% of the time .. and nothing wrong with showing a sign if discontent in a respectful way. Just don't let it linger and stir your emotions. Be consistantly emotionally stable even when your wife is not. This will help diffuse the DJs on your part. Which is so far so good!
Looking forward to hearing *day 5 no DJing!*
MNG
Yep she never skipped a beat when I disagreed respectfully. My wife asks for things she wants and tells me when she doesn't like something. It makes perfect logical sense. At least to her. Like I mentioned before, I don't want to bother people, and I take the path of least resistance. What she asked of me I would never ask of her. I'm not a hero, I just would prefer to handle it myself I suppose.
****This is Day 1 of the No-DJ Zone****
My wife had been disrespectful a few times yesterday throughout the day. She was otw home with kids from practice so I made it a point to get dinner going and tidy up the downstairs a bit. She had left out a Tupperware of chicken salad in the sink that had expired. I would have cleaned it out no problem but she didn't ask and I was rushing around getting dinner ready because I knew everyone would be coming home and be hungry. She walks in the kitchen and said, "I thought you would have been nice and cleaned that out for me." I didn't like the comment because to me it was disrespectful and implied that I wasn't nice for not cleaning it out. I replied back, "Well you sure didn't have to be rude about did you?"
And that was the streak-buster. We recovered quickly, but nevertheless I felt as if she was "pushing" me in my chest with her finger on several occasions as if to bait me if that makes sense. Perhaps this is the testing you refer to? The longer I go without a DJ is it possible the harder she tests me? Anyways I'm back to focusing today one day at a time. What I learned is that I need to calm myself and construct a reply. I can't just ignore all of her disrespect indefinitely. I need to let her know that it bothers me. The hesitation I have in doing so is that as you know my wife frequently suggests that "she didn't mean it that way" and even a respectful request can inflame the situation.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation and are motivated to keep moving forward.
Yes, your wife was disrespectful/demanding. Maybe subtly so, but yes, I agree she's demanding, and I think if the situation had been reversed she certainly would have perceived you as disrespectful or demanding. There's a subtle implication there that you "should" have done what she wanted.
One way to head this off at the pass sooner is to get her involved in your decision to skip it: "Honey, there's a tupperware in the sink that needs cleaning. I'm kind of rushing to make dinner and was going to skip cleaning it, but would you like it better if I delay dinner a bit and clean it?" Then you are more likely to get a decision she is enthusiastic about.
You can't ignore her disrespect indefinitely, but at this point she is not motivated to change it, and she is likely to be more motivated later on, after she is in love. I think Dr. Harley would suggest keeping the problem on the front burner (i.e., mentioning it once a week), but only if you can do it in a way that she finds respectful. It is possible that at the moment any mentioning of it is going to be perceived as disrespectful.
Whatever you do, I would NOT mention it in the heat of the moment! That's always going to be dangerous. If she were doing the MB program with you, you could put these things on worksheets and exchange them once a week.
What you might do once a week, rather than bringing up the specific incidents, is write her a note saying that sometimes you feel disrespected by the way she talks, and that you want to hear if she has any complaints, but that you would her to be willing to make sure the way she talks to you feels respectful to you. A suggestion/request, not a demand. Then if she has any questions or doesn't understand what she's doing that feels disrespectful, you can offer examples.
Right now I wouldn't expect a positive reaction to this; I would be prepared for a negative reaction. But it will get the problem in her mind so that down the road, when you have made more love bank deposits and she feels more motivated to change for you, she understands what you need from her.
Notice how the frustration you mentioned in your last post yesterday preceded your DJ last night. They may not appear to be directly related, but it's possible that the frustration earlier in the day made you more susceptible to becoming frustrated more quickly later on.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation and are motivated to keep moving forward.
Yes, your wife was disrespectful/demanding. Maybe subtly so, but yes, I agree she's demanding, and I think if the situation had been reversed she certainly would have perceived you as disrespectful or demanding. There's a subtle implication there that you "should" have done what she wanted.
One way to head this off at the pass sooner is to get her involved in your decision to skip it: "Honey, there's a tupperware in the sink that needs cleaning. I'm kind of rushing to make dinner and was going to skip cleaning it, but would you like it better if I delay dinner a bit and clean it?" Then you are more likely to get a decision she is enthusiastic about.
You can't ignore her disrespect indefinitely, but at this point she is not motivated to change it, and she is likely to be more motivated later on, after she is in love. I think Dr. Harley would suggest keeping the problem on the front burner (i.e., mentioning it once a week), but only if you can do it in a way that she finds respectful. It is possible that at the moment any mentioning of it is going to be perceived as disrespectful.
Whatever you do, I would NOT mention it in the heat of the moment! That's always going to be dangerous. If she were doing the MB program with you, you could put these things on worksheets and exchange them once a week.
What you might do once a week, rather than bringing up the specific incidents, is write her a note saying that sometimes you feel disrespected by the way she talks, and that you want to hear if she has any complaints, but that you would her to be willing to make sure the way she talks to you feels respectful to you. A suggestion/request, not a demand. Then if she has any questions or doesn't understand what she's doing that feels disrespectful, you can offer examples.
Right now I wouldn't expect a positive reaction to this; I would be prepared for a negative reaction. But it will get the problem in her mind so that down the road, when you have made more love bank deposits and she feels more motivated to change for you, she understands what you need from her.
Yeah I kind of got sucked into it as it "built" throughout the day. I let it suck me in and I'll be more prepared for it should it happen again.
One thing that might be unique in my situation that MrNiceGuy did bring up is that my wife may not be attracted to the "needy" guy who brings up problems all the time respectfully. In her mind she just wants me to not be so sensitive to a DJ. She doesn't respect sensitivity and she is admittedly not very sensitive herself in a way. She is NOT into Macho Guy Stuff, very different thing. I realize that she is not motivated to change because in her mind I supposed she wasn't disrespectful in the first place. The strategy would be intentionally ignoring her DJs to solicit a positive view of me by not being "sensitive" or "needy." In addition it would allow her to respect me a lot more than she does when I am needy. In retrospect ALL of my attempts to complain respectfully haven't really gained any traction over the last year, and each time I do she rarely respects my requests, she instead insists that I'm just taking things the wrong way. I'm not saying this a textbook MB strategy, but perhaps is a short lived alternative in my particular situation.
i see from your signature that you have a toddler.
Is it possible that your wife has postpartum depression?
I ahve read that depression affects sex drive; but usually running fights depression too.
By the way, I used to race a half marathon once or twice a month until my wifes affair. I sometimes place in the age group. I love running.
Is your wifes running friend a "good" friend or a "toxic" friend?
I'm glad you stuck up for yourself. I think you could have worded that a lot better though. You could have mentioned that you were not aware she wanted you to clean it out but if she will give you a heads up next time she wants something specifically done, give you a heads up and you will. If she gets snippy with you, that's okay. Don't react to it;you've made your point. Move on.
Or tell her that you were busy and hadn't had time to get to it but you will when you get finished with a,b,and c .
i see from your signature that you have a toddler.
Is it possible that your wife has postpartum depression?
I ahve read that depression affects sex drive; but usually running fights depression too.
By the way, I used to race a half marathon once or twice a month until my wifes affair. I sometimes place in the age group. I love running.
Is your wifes running friend a "good" friend or a "toxic" friend?
PP is possible although never diagnosed. Three kids is so much more than two and we are both stressed about it. I do think she is somewhat depressed which is why we make a strong effort to exercise and hire babysitters.
As for the SF thing, it is a lot of things. My past behavior, not wanting to use a condom(I'm getting a V later this month), not wanting to get messy, tired from a long day, etc. I figured none of that mattered when we were first married, so I figured it really has more to do with not crossing the threshold.
Friends are not toxic at all. I approve. All married, and when they run it is with headsets on listening to workout music, then home.
I'm glad you stuck up for yourself. I think you could have worded that a lot better though. You could have mentioned that you were not aware she wanted you to clean it out but if she will give you a heads up next time she wants something specifically done, give you a heads up and you will. If she gets snippy with you, that's okay. Don't react to it;you've made your point. Move on.
Or tell her that you were busy and hadn't had time to get to it but you will when you get finished with a,b,and c .
Yeah I wanted to reply respectfully but that comment left my mouth before I could reel it back in, uggggh! Today has been great so far.
Hilltopper,
My wife said the very same thing about sex. She said she was "sensitive to latex" (so no condoms) and she wanted me to get a vasectomy.
I refused a vasectomy. And I'm glad I did because I'm getting divorced now.
But I know an older man that got one years ago and he said sex went up 100% after he got his because hsi wife didnt worry about being pregnant anymore.
Hilltopper,
My wife said the very same thing about sex. She said she was "sensitive to latex" (so no condoms) and she wanted me to get a vasectomy.
I refused a vasectomy. And I'm glad I did because I'm getting divorced now.
But I know an older man that got one years ago and he said sex went up 100% after he got his because hsi wife didnt worry about being pregnant anymore.
Yep, that is the biggest reason. I didn't get one before because I didn't feel it would change the amount of sex we'd have anyways. It was kind of a stand off. Now I do get some and I hate using condoms with a passion anyways. The goal is to eliminate the pregnancy issue among other things, make my wife fall in love, and then move the needle on SF to a level that is more in line with my current needs.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation and are motivated to keep moving forward.
Yes, your wife was disrespectful/demanding. Maybe subtly so, but yes, I agree she's demanding, and I think if the situation had been reversed she certainly would have perceived you as disrespectful or demanding. There's a subtle implication there that you "should" have done what she wanted.
One way to head this off at the pass sooner is to get her involved in your decision to skip it: "Honey, there's a tupperware in the sink that needs cleaning. I'm kind of rushing to make dinner and was going to skip cleaning it, but would you like it better if I delay dinner a bit and clean it?" Then you are more likely to get a decision she is enthusiastic about.
You can't ignore her disrespect indefinitely, but at this point she is not motivated to change it, and she is likely to be more motivated later on, after she is in love. I think Dr. Harley would suggest keeping the problem on the front burner (i.e., mentioning it once a week), but only if you can do it in a way that she finds respectful. It is possible that at the moment any mentioning of it is going to be perceived as disrespectful.
Whatever you do, I would NOT mention it in the heat of the moment! That's always going to be dangerous. If she were doing the MB program with you, you could put these things on worksheets and exchange them once a week.
What you might do once a week, rather than bringing up the specific incidents, is write her a note saying that sometimes you feel disrespected by the way she talks, and that you want to hear if she has any complaints, but that you would her to be willing to make sure the way she talks to you feels respectful to you. A suggestion/request, not a demand. Then if she has any questions or doesn't understand what she's doing that feels disrespectful, you can offer examples.
Right now I wouldn't expect a positive reaction to this; I would be prepared for a negative reaction. But it will get the problem in her mind so that down the road, when you have made more love bank deposits and she feels more motivated to change for you, she understands what you need from her.
Yeah I kind of got sucked into it as it "built" throughout the day. I let it suck me in and I'll be more prepared for it should it happen again.
One thing that might be unique in my situation that MrNiceGuy did bring up is that my wife may not be attracted to the "needy" guy who brings up problems all the time respectfully. In her mind she just wants me to not be so sensitive to a DJ. She doesn't respect sensitivity and she is admittedly not very sensitive herself in a way. She is NOT into Macho Guy Stuff, very different thing. I realize that she is not motivated to change because in her mind I supposed she wasn't disrespectful in the first place. The strategy would be intentionally ignoring her DJs to solicit a positive view of me by not being "sensitive" or "needy." In addition it would allow her to respect me a lot more than she does when I am needy. In retrospect ALL of my attempts to complain respectfully haven't really gained any traction over the last year, and each time I do she rarely respects my requests, she instead insists that I'm just taking things the wrong way. I'm not saying this a textbook MB strategy, but perhaps is a short lived alternative in my particular situation.
Well, I ran my suggestions by Prisca just now and she said she probably would've reacted badly to them! So it sounds like what you are proposing is probably a better approach. Complaints are a love bank withdrawal, and ultimately they need to happen, but at this point the complaints have already been made and she has chosen not to act on them, so there's really not a lot that can be done other than win her back. Don't forget this article from Dr. Harley I've posted before (it came up in my discussion with Prisca). Coincidentally, it's about washing dishes.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.htmlIn most marriages, abuse begins when a conflict is introduced. For example, your wife might say that you did not dry the dishes properly. That's a form of abuse, because she is making a disrespectful judgment about your dish drying behavior. For you, the drying was just fine, but for her it wasn't. What you have is a simple difference of opinion on the way dishes should be dried, and your wife should have said that she would prefer your drying them the way she wants them to be dried.
But even though she made an abusive remark, you can end the cycle of abuse before it begins if you don't accelerate negativity (that means, matching her abuse with abuse of your own). What you should do is ignore the abuse on her side, and in your own mind re-translate what she said to be "I would prefer it if you would dry the dishes this way, instead of the way you are drying them."
However, if you are offended by the comment she made, and most people are offended by abuse, then you will be very tempted to come back with, "fine, dry them yourself next time." That is abusive because it's a demand (you are telling her what to do). Or you might be tempted to say, "you don't dry them any better that I do." That's abusive because it's disrespectful (you are judging her dish washing behavior). Or you might be tempted to let her have it with, "What a stupid thing to say -- you sure are full of stupid comments today." That's an angry outburst because what you say is intended to punish her for the comment she made to you. As soon as you respond to your wife's abusive comment with an abusive comment of your own, you have created a cycle of abuse where you are both abusing each other.
Your wife might then respond to your abuse with more abuse. It may be a selfish demand, it may be a disrespectful judgment, or it may be an angry outburst. That will escalate negativity even more. Then you respond with more abuse, she responds again, and on and on. Every argument is abusive, and whenever you argue or fight, think to yourself, "we are being abusive to each other. I must somehow stop this cycle of abuse."
Sounds like Dr. Harley would condone the practice of ignoring the abuse on her side, for now.
Hill ... im sorry man that things turned out not so good. HOwever .. you determined already that your wifes horomones could be shifting any day now. NOW is the time for you to be consistant with your self control and allowing plenty of room for grace. (especially since your wife is not a MBer)
One thing that might be unique in my situation that MrNiceGuy did bring up is that my wife may not be attracted to the "needy" guy who brings up problems all the time respectfully.
NO Woman is attracted to the "needy guy" .. ever. It places your happiness on her which pressures her on top of her already busy life. You have to be happy with yourself (consistantly) before your wife will be attracted to you regardless of HER emotional state.
You need to become magnetic and confident to her.
You see (and i have tested this with my wife) ALOT of women (
notice i didnt say all women) are not attracted to a man who tells them how great they are all the time (some yes, not all though), talks about his feelings for them and agrees with everything they say (they say they want this but after a while they really dont). In fact they are usually repelled by this behavior because it is SUBMISSIVE! They are attracted to a man who is the center of his reality and has the balls to speak his mind. He doesn't feed into her emotional states. INSTEAD you flip the game with humor and tension so that she feeds into YOUR reality. How?
So many do it wrong (heck i have been doing it wrong for a long time until recently) .. it becomes insulting to the woman and then you come off as an A$$. The trick is to do it in a way that she cant help but laugh. Turn it into a flirt. Tongue in cheek style. Tease and entice, not insult or be arrogant!
Example:
HER: Can you put this in the trash for me?
Old You: Oh, of course! Do you need anything else?
New You: No! Haha just kidding. Sure I can, but what's in it for me?
Be Playful about it! Poke her. Throw paperclips at her head and when she looks your way, whistle like it wasn't you. Twirl her around and dip her ballroom dance style. Tickle her. Steal something from her and get her to wrestle you for it. Give her a piggy-back ride and run at full speed while humming the Jedi theme to Star Wars! ANYTHING ... just have fun make her feel alive again! We always hear how our wives want and love to be swept off their feet, but few of us have the intuition to take this literally or we get so caught up in life and have forgotten how to have fun. It's okay to smile and be a goof sometimes!
You ask if your wife is testing you? OF COURSE SHE IS. Especially if your attitude is changing from the norm ... your wife might want to see if its for real. She wants to FEEL your changes as permanent so she may push your buttons to see where the new ones are. If you RARELY falter in your emotional state (keeping it from being negative) she will eventually give up doing these tests because you will be stimulating in other ways!
OK I have typed alot and may end up eating some crow for some of it lol ... and am going off on a rampage here. I think you get the point. Lighten up! Dont let trivial things become world disasters. (this is where confidence and rolling with the punches comes in handy). The pendulum will swing back in your favor..
"You have to FREE YOUR MIND" ~ Morpheus
MNG
Edit to add an example.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've got a pretty good analysis of the situation and are motivated to keep moving forward.
Yes, your wife was disrespectful/demanding. Maybe subtly so, but yes, I agree she's demanding, and I think if the situation had been reversed she certainly would have perceived you as disrespectful or demanding. There's a subtle implication there that you "should" have done what she wanted.
One way to head this off at the pass sooner is to get her involved in your decision to skip it: "Honey, there's a tupperware in the sink that needs cleaning. I'm kind of rushing to make dinner and was going to skip cleaning it, but would you like it better if I delay dinner a bit and clean it?" Then you are more likely to get a decision she is enthusiastic about.
You can't ignore her disrespect indefinitely, but at this point she is not motivated to change it, and she is likely to be more motivated later on, after she is in love. I think Dr. Harley would suggest keeping the problem on the front burner (i.e., mentioning it once a week), but only if you can do it in a way that she finds respectful. It is possible that at the moment any mentioning of it is going to be perceived as disrespectful.
Whatever you do, I would NOT mention it in the heat of the moment! That's always going to be dangerous. If she were doing the MB program with you, you could put these things on worksheets and exchange them once a week.
What you might do once a week, rather than bringing up the specific incidents, is write her a note saying that sometimes you feel disrespected by the way she talks, and that you want to hear if she has any complaints, but that you would her to be willing to make sure the way she talks to you feels respectful to you. A suggestion/request, not a demand. Then if she has any questions or doesn't understand what she's doing that feels disrespectful, you can offer examples.
Right now I wouldn't expect a positive reaction to this; I would be prepared for a negative reaction. But it will get the problem in her mind so that down the road, when you have made more love bank deposits and she feels more motivated to change for you, she understands what you need from her.
Yeah I kind of got sucked into it as it "built" throughout the day. I let it suck me in and I'll be more prepared for it should it happen again.
One thing that might be unique in my situation that MrNiceGuy did bring up is that my wife may not be attracted to the "needy" guy who brings up problems all the time respectfully. In her mind she just wants me to not be so sensitive to a DJ. She doesn't respect sensitivity and she is admittedly not very sensitive herself in a way. She is NOT into Macho Guy Stuff, very different thing. I realize that she is not motivated to change because in her mind I supposed she wasn't disrespectful in the first place. The strategy would be intentionally ignoring her DJs to solicit a positive view of me by not being "sensitive" or "needy." In addition it would allow her to respect me a lot more than she does when I am needy. In retrospect ALL of my attempts to complain respectfully haven't really gained any traction over the last year, and each time I do she rarely respects my requests, she instead insists that I'm just taking things the wrong way. I'm not saying this a textbook MB strategy, but perhaps is a short lived alternative in my particular situation.
Well, I ran my suggestions by Prisca just now and she said she probably would've reacted badly to them! So it sounds like what you are proposing is probably a better approach. Complaints are a love bank withdrawal, and ultimately they need to happen, but at this point the complaints have already been made and she has chosen not to act on them, so there's really not a lot that can be done other than win her back. Don't forget this article from Dr. Harley I've posted before (it came up in my discussion with Prisca). Coincidentally, it's about washing dishes.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067b_qa.htmlIn most marriages, abuse begins when a conflict is introduced. For example, your wife might say that you did not dry the dishes properly. That's a form of abuse, because she is making a disrespectful judgment about your dish drying behavior. For you, the drying was just fine, but for her it wasn't. What you have is a simple difference of opinion on the way dishes should be dried, and your wife should have said that she would prefer your drying them the way she wants them to be dried.
But even though she made an abusive remark, you can end the cycle of abuse before it begins if you don't accelerate negativity (that means, matching her abuse with abuse of your own). What you should do is ignore the abuse on her side, and in your own mind re-translate what she said to be "I would prefer it if you would dry the dishes this way, instead of the way you are drying them."
However, if you are offended by the comment she made, and most people are offended by abuse, then you will be very tempted to come back with, "fine, dry them yourself next time." That is abusive because it's a demand (you are telling her what to do). Or you might be tempted to say, "you don't dry them any better that I do." That's abusive because it's disrespectful (you are judging her dish washing behavior). Or you might be tempted to let her have it with, "What a stupid thing to say -- you sure are full of stupid comments today." That's an angry outburst because what you say is intended to punish her for the comment she made to you. As soon as you respond to your wife's abusive comment with an abusive comment of your own, you have created a cycle of abuse where you are both abusing each other.
Your wife might then respond to your abuse with more abuse. It may be a selfish demand, it may be a disrespectful judgment, or it may be an angry outburst. That will escalate negativity even more. Then you respond with more abuse, she responds again, and on and on. Every argument is abusive, and whenever you argue or fight, think to yourself, "we are being abusive to each other. I must somehow stop this cycle of abuse."
Sounds like Dr. Harley would condone the practice of ignoring the abuse on her side, for now.
Interesting, I was prepared for getting smacked up side the head for my theory. That article is right on the money though. That is exactly how things progress in my marriage. She doesn't mean anything by it so I'll translate for the time being while I win her back. I guess I have such an issue with someone telling me to do something that they themselves do. It is really an insignificant issue, just a Tupperware dish in the sink, but to me it represents a whole slew of things:
1. I don't like being spoken to disrespectfully.
2. I don't like being referred to as the opposite of nice for not doing a dish that she apparently didn't have time for either(hypocritical?)
3. I don't like that the hard work to make coming home a relaxing fun environment with dinner, clean house, and music goes ignored.
Its almost like complaining is like breathing. She doesn't dislike me for not doing the dish she left out. She dislikes me only when I become disrespectful back to her.
Here is the main difference between my wife me. When she is disrespectful she frequently doesn't know that she is or didn't mean to be. When I'm disrespectful I know EXACTLY what I mean and how it will be received.
My previous reply was to the quote below. I read the other replys from Hill after.. and THEN noticed hes having a good day.
Good Job Hill!
****This is Day 1 of the No-DJ Zone****
My wife had been disrespectful a few times yesterday throughout the day. She was otw home with kids from practice so I made it a point to get dinner going and tidy up the downstairs a bit. She had left out a Tupperware of chicken salad in the sink that had expired. I would have cleaned it out no problem but she didn't ask and I was rushing around getting dinner ready because I knew everyone would be coming home and be hungry. She walks in the kitchen and said, "I thought you would have been nice and cleaned that out for me." I didn't like the comment because to me it was disrespectful and implied that I wasn't nice for not cleaning it out. I replied back, "Well you sure didn't have to be rude about did you?"
And that was the streak-buster. We recovered quickly, but nevertheless I felt as if she was "pushing" me in my chest with her finger on several occasions as if to bait me if that makes sense. Perhaps this is the testing you refer to? The longer I go without a DJ is it possible the harder she tests me? Anyways I'm back to focusing today one day at a time. What I learned is that I need to calm myself and construct a reply. I can't just ignore all of her disrespect indefinitely. I need to let her know that it bothers me. The hesitation I have in doing so is that as you know my wife frequently suggests that "she didn't mean it that way" and even a respectful request can inflame the situation.
MrNiceGuy,
I have yet to hear Dr. Harley talk about PMS, and there's a reason: IT DOESN'T MATTER. A woman can be very much in love and respectful during PMS, and very hateful and disrespectful the rest of the month. The promblem is not hormones, but rather the fact that she is not in love with her man because he has a history of being verbally abusive.
So would you get off the hormone thing? It may have been an interesting side note about your marriage, but it is not MB and it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Hill needs to extend grace all the time, not just now.
You see (and i have tested this with my wife) ALOT of women (notice i didnt say all women) are not attracted to a man who tells them how great they are all the time (some yes, not all though), talks about his feelings for them and agrees with everything they say (they say they want this but after a while they really dont). In fact they are usually repelled by this behavior because it is SUBMISSIVE! They are attracted to a man who is the center of his reality and has the balls to speak his mind. He doesn't feed into her emotional states. INSTEAD you flip the game with humor and tension so that she feeds into YOUR reality.
I believe Dr. Harley would disagree with you. You've just suggested that a husband ignore very important Emotional Needs (Admiration, Affection and Conversation jumped out at me).
Your wife is not "A lot of women." What works for her won't necessarily work with other wives. That's the beauty of MB -- it can be tailored to each individual. Maybe she doesn't have a high need for Admiration and verbal Affection, but that doesn't mean "A lot of women" don't.
Interesting, I was prepared for getting smacked up side the head for my theory. That article is right on the money though. That is exactly how things progress in my marriage. She doesn't mean anything by it so I'll translate for the time being while I win her back.
This is very good. Respond to the complaint, not the disrespect.
I guess I have such an issue with someone telling me to do something that they themselves do. It is really an insignificant issue, just a Tupperware dish in the sink, but to me it represents a whole slew of things:
1. I don't like being spoken to disrespectfully.
2. I don't like being referred to as the opposite of nice for not doing a dish that she apparently didn't have time for either(hypocritical?)
3. I don't like that the hard work to make coming home a relaxing fun environment with dinner, clean house, and music goes ignored.
Do you have a high need for Admiration? Dr. Harley has said that people who do are hit harder by DJs than people who don't. A DJ is 100% the complete opposite of Admiration.
Here is the main difference between my wife me. When she is disrespectful she frequently doesn't know that she is or didn't mean to be. When I'm disrespectful I know EXACTLY what I mean and how it will be received.
You've also been disrespectful without knowing it. I've seen you do it
Not recently, though. I would say that you are getting a better control on that.
Example:
HER: Can you put this in the trash for me?
Old You: Oh, of course! Do you need anything else?
New You: No! Haha just kidding. Sure I can, but what's in it for me?
Be Playful about it! Poke her. Throw paperclips at her head and when she looks your way, whistle like it wasn't you. Twirl her around and dip her ballroom dance style. Tickle her. Steal something from her and get her to wrestle you for it. Give her a piggy-back ride and run at full speed while humming the Jedi theme to Star Wars! ANYTHING ... just have fun make her feel alive again! We always hear how our wives want and love to be swept off their feet, but few of us have the intuition to take this literally or we get so caught up in life and have forgotten how to have fun. It's okay to smile and be a goof sometimes!
Such irritating, immature behaviour would turn me right off my H. Throwing paperclips, tickling, stealing and making me wrestle to get something back...all those things are poking a stick at me to get a response, and the response would be irritation and an order to STOP. That is the kind of behaviour that 16 year-old boys indulge in. My son would do those things to a girl because he felt too insecure and unsure to know how to behave to a girl or to talk to her - so he would treat her like a puppy.
That kind of behaviour would not be meeting my ENs. My romantic, intimate ENs are like most women's; affection (of the non-irritating, non-tickling variety; stoke my hair or give me a spontaneous kiss. Do not throw a paperclip at my head or I might throw a paperweight at yours), and conversation that shows that he is interested in me, where we listen, take turns and respond.
I get a bit fed up with reading "MNG's programme for a romantic marriage" when I come here to read about Dr Harley's.
I also find it disrespectful for MNG to discuss Mrs Hilltopper's menstrual cycles on a public forum without her approval. This needs to stop.
MrNiceGuy,
I have yet to hear Dr. Harley talk about PMS, and there's a reason: IT DOESN'T MATTER. A woman can be very much in love and respectful during PMS, and very hateful and disrespectful the rest of the month. The promblem is not hormones, but rather the fact that she is not in love with her man because he has a history of being verbally abusive.
So would you get off the hormone thing? It may have been an interesting side note about your marriage, but it is not MB and it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Hill needs to extend grace all the time, not just now.
You see (and i have tested this with my wife) ALOT of women (notice i didnt say all women) are not attracted to a man who tells them how great they are all the time (some yes, not all though), talks about his feelings for them and agrees with everything they say (they say they want this but after a while they really dont). In fact they are usually repelled by this behavior because it is SUBMISSIVE! They are attracted to a man who is the center of his reality and has the balls to speak his mind. He doesn't feed into her emotional states. INSTEAD you flip the game with humor and tension so that she feeds into YOUR reality.
I believe Dr. Harley would disagree with you. You've just suggested that a husband ignore very important Emotional Needs (Admiration, Affection and Conversation jumped out at me).
Your wife is not "A lot of women." What works for her won't necessarily work with other wives. That's the beauty of MB -- it can be tailored to each individual. Maybe she doesn't have a high need for Admiration and verbal Affection, but that doesn't mean "A lot of women" don't.
AND...If I threw a paperclip at my wife's head when she wasn't looking she'd be less into me than she is now!
Point taken though, lighten up Hill.
Interesting, I was prepared for getting smacked up side the head for my theory. That article is right on the money though. That is exactly how things progress in my marriage. She doesn't mean anything by it so I'll translate for the time being while I win her back.
This is very good. Respond to the complaint, not the disrespect.
I guess I have such an issue with someone telling me to do something that they themselves do. It is really an insignificant issue, just a Tupperware dish in the sink, but to me it represents a whole slew of things:
1. I don't like being spoken to disrespectfully.
2. I don't like being referred to as the opposite of nice for not doing a dish that she apparently didn't have time for either(hypocritical?)
3. I don't like that the hard work to make coming home a relaxing fun environment with dinner, clean house, and music goes ignored.
Do you have a high need for Admiration? Dr. Harley has said that people who do are hit harder by DJs than people who don't. A DJ is 100% the complete opposite of Admiration.
Here is the main difference between my wife me. When she is disrespectful she frequently doesn't know that she is or didn't mean to be. When I'm disrespectful I know EXACTLY what I mean and how it will be received.
You've also been disrespectful without knowing it. I've seen you do it
Not recently, though. I would say that you are getting a better control on that.
I believe I do have a high need for admiration from my wife, although not in other areas of my life. I hadn't realized it until just now. As far as being disrespectful and no knowing it, I think I have a better grasp on it.
Example:
HER: Can you put this in the trash for me?
Old You: Oh, of course! Do you need anything else?
New You: No! Haha just kidding. Sure I can, but what's in it for me?
Be Playful about it! Poke her. Throw paperclips at her head and when she looks your way, whistle like it wasn't you. Twirl her around and dip her ballroom dance style. Tickle her. Steal something from her and get her to wrestle you for it. Give her a piggy-back ride and run at full speed while humming the Jedi theme to Star Wars! ANYTHING ... just have fun make her feel alive again! We always hear how our wives want and love to be swept off their feet, but few of us have the intuition to take this literally or we get so caught up in life and have forgotten how to have fun. It's okay to smile and be a goof sometimes!
Such irritating, immature behaviour would turn me right off my H. Throwing paperclips, tickling, stealing and making me wrestle to get something back...all those things are poking a stick at me to get a response, and the response would be irritation and an order to STOP. That is the kind of behaviour that 16 year-old boys indulge in. My son would do those things to a girl because he felt too insecure and unsure to know how to behave to a girl or to talk to her - so he would treat her like a puppy.
That kind of behaviour would not be meeting my ENs. My romantic, intimate ENs are like most women's; affection (of the non-irritating, non-tickling variety; stoke my hair or give me a spontaneous kiss. Do not throw a paperclip at my head or I might throw a paperweight at yours), and conversation that shows that he is interested in me, where we listen, take turns and respond.
I get a bit fed up with reading "MNG's programme for a romantic marriage" when I come here to read about Dr Harley's.
I also find it disrespectful for MNG to discuss Mrs Hilltopper's menstrual cycles on a public forum without her approval. This needs to stop.
That made me LOL and well said SC. My wife isn't into those things and I wasn't about to try out MNG's methods any time soon. His points are to:
1. Be flirtatious and playful and fun, not so serious all the time.
2. If I can be more gracious when my wife is hormonal then by all means do so.
Prisca ... I GET that your offended by the hormone thing. Your a woman. I expect that. I am only trying to provide ways for Hill to be aware. The things I have said have TONS of value and he can tailor it to his own relationship. OF COURSE hill is going to have conversation with her, OF Course hill is going to compliment her and treat her like a lady And Of course he will provide affection. I am not saying to put the brakes on these things PERMANENTLY ... just hold back a bit .. so when it does happen its more genuine. Quit giving away your affection for free ... its possibly boring her and hes too predictable so she stirs up strife to FEEL something. (from my perspective anyhow and I could b be wrong .. been known to be on the rare occasion :P)
Another thing though. Maybe, Hills wife needs this approach like my wife did? I dunno .. I am just throwing it out there for him becasue when i read his thread .. it reads like mine did .. his wife acts like mine did etc. I will let Hill decide what works or doesn't work in his relationship. Its very clear any mention of MB or its tactics in MB terminology and his wife doesn't like it or respond very well. She is NOT a MB so may need something different or the very least different terminology to associate the concepts with.
However as per your respectful request. I will stop mentioning the hormones.
I am not saying you are doing this now, or that you have ever been guilty of it, but it's something to watch for: A common pitfall for someone who is trying to eliminate disrespect is to think "It's not disrespectful if it's true!" Well, it can be very disrespectful, even if you see it as the truth.
For example only: Your response "Well you sure didn't have to be rude about it, did you?" is very true. She didn't have to be rude. But you were right in seeing that as a DJ from you. So even the truth can be disrespectful.
Again, not saying that's what you did this time, but it's something to watch for in yourself in the future as you work to eliminate all disrespect.
Prisca ... I GET that your offended by the hormone thing. Your a woman. I expect that.
I do hope you're not as irritating and offensive to your wife as you are being here.
I finally found my notes about categories of disrespectful judgments. They are not as organized as I'd like, but here they are:
sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions? body language?
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531712#Post2531712expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful
attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind
I statements help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.
Add to my list:
defensiveness
I'm pretty sure I've seen or heard Dr. Harley specifically mention this one. And I know that Prisca finds it disrespectful! Who wants to be talking and expressing their complaint and see it met with a defensive reaction that tries to prove the complaint is invalid? Nobody, I think.
Example:
HER: Can you put this in the trash for me?
Old You: Oh, of course! Do you need anything else?
New You: No! Haha just kidding. Sure I can, but what's in it for me?
Be Playful about it! Poke her. Throw paperclips at her head and when she looks your way, whistle like it wasn't you. Twirl her around and dip her ballroom dance style. Tickle her. Steal something from her and get her to wrestle you for it. Give her a piggy-back ride and run at full speed while humming the Jedi theme to Star Wars! ANYTHING ... just have fun make her feel alive again! We always hear how our wives want and love to be swept off their feet, but few of us have the intuition to take this literally or we get so caught up in life and have forgotten how to have fun. It's okay to smile and be a goof sometimes!
I get a bit fed up with reading "MNG's programme for a romantic marriage" when I come here to read about Dr Harley's.
I also find it disrespectful for MNG to discuss Mrs Hilltopper's menstrual cycles on a public forum without her approval. This needs to stop.
You dont have to read what I type ... I didnt ask you too. I am sure if the mods had an issue with what I was saying it would be removed. I am not hurting anyone .. only giving my opinion from PERSONAL experience. I work the MB program .. and incorporate these tactics into it at the same time. BOTH my wife and I are on board with MB so MB is easy for us and its easy for us to both tease and play with each other too with my mentioned tactics. She loves it and loves the variety it brings in a playful way.
Hill gets it ... I can see he really does. He summed it up nicely .. I just like to elaborate so he can get a feel through my words what those things look like. Am i suggesting he do it exactly as i say? .. no of course not. His wife is not my wife ... IM JUST SAYIN for the sake of his reading pleasure so he can take what he wants away from it ..
Oh and about her menstral cycles .. so its ok to talk about all the things going on in his relationship (sexual and the like) .. but that one item has to stop? Do you think she would approve of him on MB at all? From what Hill has said I am guessing shes not very enthusiastic about MB and so if he was to POJA with his wife about MB i bet you she would tell him to stay away from it?
Dont get me wrong here .. MB is great. Excellent tool .. all of what I have said can be used in a MB sort of way ... just have to read between the lines as Hill as already said he does.
Good Job Hill I believe things will turn around for you after a while. ... I know I am a bit abrasive these days(or appear as such) but really im just trying to help ya out. I will shut up if ya like.
MNG
Prisca ... I GET that your offended by the hormone thing. Your a woman. I expect that.
I am not offended because I am a woman, buddy.
I am offended because you are encouraging another man to be disrespectful to his wife. Blaming her moods and disrespect problem on her hormones is VERY disrespectful to her and her feelings. Implying that she cannot control herself during PMS is very disrespectful to her.
I do not have to be a woman to have a problem with that.
For the record, Markos is very well aware of my cycle, and is very tender with me when I am feeling more emotional than normal. BUT he doesn't blame anything on "that time of the month" -- not my mood, not my DJs, NOTHING. He doesn't dismiss my feeling or complaints because of PMS. He doesn't feel the need to handle me with white gloves. He doesn't advise other men to do that, either.
And if he did, I would shut him out of that part of my life completely. It is extremely disrespectful.
I am only trying to provide ways for Hill to be aware. The things I have said have TONS of value and he can tailor it to his own relationship. OF COURSE hill is going to have conversation with her, OF Course hill is going to compliment her and treat her like a lady And Of course he will provide affection. I am not saying to put the brakes on these things PERMANENTLY ... just hold back a bit .. so when it does happen its more genuine. Quit giving away your affection for free ... its possibly boring her and hes too predictable so she stirs up strife to FEEL something. (from my perspective anyhow and I could b be wrong .. been known to be on the rare occasion :P)
You are writing a recipe for disaster.
Its very clear any mention of MB or its tactics in MB terminology and his wife doesn't like it or respond very well. She is NOT a MB so may need something different or the very least different terminology to associate the concepts with.
You need not mention MB or terminology in order to practice it.
Prisca ... I GET that your offended by the hormone thing. Your a woman. I expect that.
I do hope you're not as irritating and offensive to your wife as you are being here.
LOL .. nope ... she doesnt see it that way. Shes very upbeat ... easy going .. and likes to tease and be teased in playful ways. Keeps things interesting. We try to find the fun in everything. Even silly simple things. I do all these things in a way that she likes. It just has to be adjusted properly for each individuals humor. It was only suggestions by example. NOt specifics...
I see a lot of personal strategy being advised instead of Dr Harley's plans. I would ask that posters familiarize themselves with the concepts before posting to help others. The purpose of this forum is to help others apply the Marriage Builders concepts. Thank you for your cooperation.
I know you probably won't listen, but maybe others who are following will.
Radio clip on complaining
I see a lot of personal strategy being advised instead of Dr Harley's plans. I would ask that posters familiarize themselves with the concepts before posting to help others. The purpose of this forum is to help others apply the Marriage Builders concepts. Thank you for your cooperation.
Thanks Ariel, got hijacked there for a bit. Most everyone here has been helping me for a long time and I think it just got a little too lively.
Proceeding......
Bottom line is that I thing there is really something to ignoring some of my wife's DJs for the time being so as not to lengthen or stall the ability for her to cross the threshold of romantic love. I would argue there is a difference between djs and DJs. The kind I illustrated was a dj about a Tupperware in the sink. A DJ would be something more intentional with selfish motivations to get something out of me. I don't think she was trying to get anything from, she was just complaining, disrespectfully mind you, that if I see a dish in the sink and I have time to clean it, that would be nice and make her happy. I don't believe there was any LB withdrawal for her having seen that dish in the sink, just an observation by someone who is used to doing things disrespectfully. Had she said, "I'm so sick of coming home and having dirty dishes in the sink. You are just a lazy jerk!" then I might defend myself.
I know you probably won't listen, but maybe others who are following will.
Radio clip on complaining
Listening now at work, no one here. I'll listen as long as I can. Btw I used to listen daily when I had a commute. Now I work down the street which is tough! I'll give you feedback when I'm done.
Listening now at work, no one here. I'll listen as long as I can. Btw I used to listen daily when I had a commute. Now I work down the street which is tough! I'll give you feedback when I'm done.
Fantastic.
Excellent radio clips on DJs and AO. Dr. Harley even talks about how he has had to deal with his own anger. He says DJs to him are the one thing that can set him off.
Also excellent radio clips.
Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on DJ/AO Segment #2 Segment #3 Segment #4
What resonated is the part about her husband blaming her whenever anything goes wrong. I've said since day on on this forum that my wife is a blamer, even over stuff that most people might consider silly. It could be that she was just looking for someone/thing to blame and I was the easiest target? Just thinking out loud, not sure if I'm going anywhere with it.
What resonated is the part about her husband blaming her whenever anything goes wrong. I've said since day on on this forum that my wife is a blamer, even over stuff that most people might consider silly. It could be that she was just looking for someone/thing to blame and I was the easiest target? Just thinking out loud, not sure if I'm going anywhere with it.
I thought the same thing.
Hill .. I just wanted to apologize for jacking your thread (or contributing to it) I am just trying to help you and giving you info that has helped me and my wife. I hope you found some value in what i wrote....
MNG
Hope to see day 2 of NO DJing tomorrow!
Hill, my marriage had a ton of blaming, too. How about a little O&H (openness and honesty) followed by a thoughtful request? We uses to call this drive-by O&H as a reminder that in a thoughtful request an answer isn't necessary. I really think you'll be surprised at how much the "letting go of the response" part of thoughtful requests defuses the atmosphere of blame.
I used to read the
Friends of Good Conversation article every day before my XH got home. Reminded me how to be fun and light, like MNG discussed. Hard to stay cranky/blaming with someone who is talking about things you enjoy to investigate, inform and understand you. What do you think?
I would say something like "Wow that tone just got right under my skin, please knock it off, thanks! So do you recognize the music?"
Hill .. I just wanted to apologize for jacking your thread (or contributing to it) I am just trying to help you and giving you info that has helped me and my wife. I hope you found some value in what i wrote....
MNG
Hope to see day 2 of NO DJing tomorrow!
MNG, there is value and I understand exactly what you were saying and why it works. It wouldn't work for me to verbalize it, but being aware of the time of the month is something I'll be doing.
Today is Day 2 of the NO DJ Zone. My plan is working, but it will take some time. What I didn't think about that is a positive result of eliminating my disrespectful behavior is that everything else I'm trying to accomplish has become easier. When my wife doesn't have a bitter taste in her mouth about the last DJ I made, she is more receptive to letting me meet her ENs. I just keep trying to picture a chart like those one's for a blood drive with a big ole mark on it which represents the threshold of love. I don't know how many days it may take, but I know that I'm determined to eliminate the DJs to prevent any further backslides.
On another note, in learning the MB process, have any of you observed friends or family and the level of disrespect that is rampant in marriages today? It continues to amaze me observing how the majority of spouses treat each other. It could just be my group. I find the level of sarcasm and "belittling" of spouses in public to be sad. My wife and I certainly spent many years doing this and in fact my wife still does at times which is something I need to be prepared for.
What resonated is the part about her husband blaming her whenever anything goes wrong. I've said since day on on this forum that my wife is a blamer, even over stuff that most people might consider silly. It could be that she was just looking for someone/thing to blame and I was the easiest target? Just thinking out loud, not sure if I'm going anywhere with it.
Hey, you listened! Great! I was a little bit worried earlier that you were missing the clips BH is posting. BrainHurts is like our new Marriage Builders Radio encyclopedia. It's like having someone bring Dr. Harley into every single discussion on this website, which I've got to say has been a massive improvement.
Regarding blaming -- I have heard Dr. Harley say that he has very low success teaching wives not to blame their husbands. (I heard this in two clips from 2006 or 2007. Maybe BrainHurts can find them.
) In a way this is very discouraging to me, because you know, I HATE TO BE BLAMED! In fact, we all do. I've even heard that in cases of affairs, wives typically blame their husbands for the affair whether it was he or she who went wayward. BUT, and this is the encouraging part, Dr. Harley says that despite this blaming, he has succeeded in teaching these couples how to have good marriages. (i.e., in love)
I think he's saying that eventually, if the husband keeps making Love Bank deposits and "translating" her disrespectful, blaming criticism into respectful complaints, and actually coming through on addressing the complaints, she will come on board and quit being so disrespectful to her husband and at the least keep her disrespect to herself so that he can be happy and so that they can productively resolve problems instead of pointing fingers. But it sounds like it takes a lot from us husbands to stay calm and end the cycle of abuse every time it stops and not respond defensively or argue about who is to blame, etc.
That's tough for us emotional guys to learn how to do, but I think I'm a lot better at it than I was a year ago, and two years ago I know I could never have dreamed of doing that. It turns out I don't have to straighten my wife out if she's wrong, even if what she's wrong about is whether I'm to blame.
For the record, I don't hear Prisca blaming me for things nearly so often as I used to two years ago!!!! As a result, I am a much happier man! One thing that happened was that at Dr. Harley's suggestion, I had to jump in and become a partner for her in coping with and solving the problems in life that brought her down, even though this was often extremely emotional for me, often a minefield where I had to avoid DJs like the plague, and occasionally in the past was not something we could talk about without me being blamed.
(Okay, and honesty time: sometimes I WAS to blame!!
)
What resonated is the part about her husband blaming her whenever anything goes wrong. I've said since day on on this forum that my wife is a blamer, even over stuff that most people might consider silly. It could be that she was just looking for someone/thing to blame and I was the easiest target? Just thinking out loud, not sure if I'm going anywhere with it.
Hey, you listened! Great! I was a little bit worried earlier that you were missing the clips BH is posting. BrainHurts is like our new Marriage Builders Radio encyclopedia. It's like having someone bring Dr. Harley into every single discussion on this website, which I've got to say has been a massive improvement.
Regarding blaming -- I have heard Dr. Harley say that he has very low success teaching wives not to blame their husbands. (I heard this in two clips from 2006 or 2007. Maybe BrainHurts can find them.
) In a way this is very discouraging to me, because you know, I HATE TO BE BLAMED! In fact, we all do. I've even heard that in cases of affairs, wives typically blame their husbands for the affair whether it was he or she who went wayward. BUT, and this is the encouraging part, Dr. Harley says that despite this blaming, he has succeeded in teaching these couples how to have good marriages. (i.e., in love)
I think he's saying that eventually, if the husband keeps making Love Bank deposits and "translating" her disrespectful, blaming criticism into respectful complaints, and actually coming through on addressing the complaints, she will come on board and quit being so disrespectful to her husband and at the least keep her disrespect to herself so that he can be happy and so that they can productively resolve problems instead of pointing fingers. But it sounds like it takes a lot from us husbands to stay calm and end the cycle of abuse every time it stops and not respond defensively or argue about who is to blame, etc.
That's tough for us emotional guys to learn how to do, but I think I'm a lot better at it than I was a year ago, and two years ago I know I could never have dreamed of doing that. It turns out I don't have to straighten my wife out if she's wrong, even if what she's wrong about is whether I'm to blame.
For the record, I don't hear Prisca blaming me for things nearly so often as I used to two years ago!!!! As a result, I am a much happier man! One thing that happened was that at Dr. Harley's suggestion, I had to jump in and become a partner for her in coping with and solving the problems in life that brought her down, even though this was often extremely emotional for me, often a minefield where I had to avoid DJs like the plague, and occasionally in the past was not something we could talk about without me being blamed.
(Okay, and honesty time: sometimes I WAS to blame!!
)
Yes I'm working hard at joining my wife in her daily life's struggles. I'm learning not to take it personally. If she complains a bit about something she is just "venting" to me. She wants someone to understand is all. She might doing in a way where I feel attacked quite frequently, but this is not her intent.
I also think a huge element in a lot of cases, and certainly in mine, is that many men take everything literally. I know that I'm an extremely literal person. It has been difficult for me to learn how to read my wife when she says something or behaves a certain way. This drives me crazy because I'm not a mind reader and I've many times felt so hopeless(thus the name of my thread). Even now I want to yell out "What do you want from me?"
Today is Day 2 of the NO DJ Zone. My plan is working, but it will take some time. What I didn't think about that is a positive result of eliminating my disrespectful behavior is that everything else I'm trying to accomplish has become easier. When my wife doesn't have a bitter taste in her mouth about the last DJ I made, she is more receptive to letting me meet her ENs. I just keep trying to picture a chart like those one's for a blood drive with a big ole mark on it which represents the threshold of love. I don't know how many days it may take, but I know that I'm determined to eliminate the DJs to prevent any further backslides.
It sounds like you are doing great, Hill. YES, she will become more receptive to love bank deposits! Something you were doing that annoyed her last year, turned out deposit two love units last week, and deposits ten love units this week, and next month may deposit fifty love units! The trick is to realize that as she comes out of withdrawal, she becomes willing to let you meet her needs, which finally makes significant love bank deposits possible.
Until you poke the snail! :P
(Ask me how I know.
)
The other trick is to not get discouraged when something that should deposit fifty love bank units only deposits one. I know that was my mistake for at least the first six years of our marriage. I took that as a sign I must be doing something wrong, and stopped. Meaning no deposits. Instead you have to build habits now that will sustain for life and will be massive love bank deposits when she is ready, and automatic for you because they are habits.
On another note, in learning the MB process, have any of you observed friends or family and the level of disrespect that is rampant in marriages today? It continues to amaze me observing how the majority of spouses treat each other.
Yes. Something that amazes me is to watch marriages on TV shows I watched as a boy. All problems are resolved by disrespect! You show your spouse what a louse they are being, they feel guilty, they repent and straighten out, and you live happily ever after until next week's thirty minute segment.
In real life if you try that with your wife you make her life a living hell, and the guilt doesn't motivate her to change anything other than to not want to talk with you again.
The Huxtables taught me that romantic love could be sustained throughout life, but unfortunately they also taught me the lie that sometimes you should straighten out or mock your mate.
Dr. Harley says there are essentially two cultures coexisting side by side in America. One has generationally intact and happy marriages, one does not. Both cultures find the other culture weird and incomprehensible. He's from the good marriage culture, and early in his counseling career he couldn't help people, because he talked to them in ways that made sense to him, but not to them in their Renter/Freeloader culture. He, a Buyer, had to learn to think like a Renter and like a Freeloader.
We get people here posting all the time about how unrealistic Marriage Builders is. They are from the Renter/Freeloader culture, and sometimes they are extremely disrespectful to Buyers. (I'm talking really nasty, some of these people! Hateful! Why would anybody be mad at other people for trying to have a happy marriage?) But 20% of marriages out there are doing this stuff, whether they are aware of Marriage Builders or not. Some people, those people, are just part of a Buyer culture.
Some of us aren't lucky enough to know a lot of Buyers in person. I'm sad to say, most churches I've been a part of have taught Renter ideas, and plenty of people I know are convinced these ideas are Biblical truth.
But people freely move across cultures every day. Generations transform. Buyers become Renters/Freeloaders, and Renters/Freeloaders become Buyers.
Besides a happy marriage, the Buyer culture tends to be transmitted to children, and subsequent generations tend to be happier, healthier, and even wealthier. Hence the huge wealth gap in America.
The Marriage Builders mission is one of advancing the Buyer culture. But Dr. Harley's strategy is to get people to fall in love first, then adopt the Buyer's agreement/culture that will sustain it for life.
Yes I'm working hard at joining my wife in her daily life's struggles. I'm learning not to take it personally. If she complains a bit about something she is just "venting" to me. She wants someone to understand is all. She might doing in a way where I feel attacked quite frequently, but this is not her intent.
Yes, me too!
I bought a biofeedback meter at the recommendation of one of Dr. Harley's newer articles, and I started putting that thing on when we talk about things that are bothering Prisca via IM. Guess what? Turns out I become extremely stressed during those conversations.
Just tabbing over to that window stresses me out!! BUT, it really is true that practicing makes perfect and I can learn to stay calm while thinking about the issues, and when I do that, I do a better job of not making love bank withdrawals during the discussion.
Yes I'm working hard at joining my wife in her daily life's struggles. I'm learning not to take it personally. If she complains a bit about something she is just "venting" to me. She wants someone to understand is all. She might doing in a way where I feel attacked quite frequently, but this is not her intent.
Yes, me too!
I bought a biofeedback meter at the recommendation of one of Dr. Harley's newer articles, and I started putting that thing on when we talk about things that are bothering Prisca via IM. Guess what? Turns out I become extremely stressed during those conversations.
Just tabbing over to that window stresses me out!! BUT, it really is true that practicing makes perfect and I can learn to stay calm while thinking about the issues, and when I do that, I do a better job of not making love bank withdrawals during the discussion.
You had mentioned that last week I believe about the IM conversations. Would you say that you get stressed because your mind is anticipating conflict? Was it customary for Prisca to be disrespectful or demanding through instant message or text? It is funny you mention that because I have the same anxiety stress over texts. I had one yesterday where she asked if I could pick up our son, even though I had already arrived home and would have to get back in the car and drive 15 minutes to get him. I for a long time and even now am afraid to say no to my wife for fear it would escalate into conflict. I offered because I knew it would make her happy but she said, "No don't worry about it." That was the end of the discussion and she wasn't mad and probably wasn't mad before if I declined to do something. She was only mad if I would decline disrespectfully.
Yes, I get stressed due to anticipating conflict. When certain subjects come up, either Prisca, or I, or both immediately become afraid, due to our history of not having resolved these things and having fights about them. I imagine it's that way in any marriage where issues have piled up.
As we have whittled down the issues I think it's gotten better. As I learn to stay relaxed while discussing emotional issues, I expect our rate of whittling down the issues to increase.
For the record, this morning when I relaxed with my meter, I did so well that the tone went down below the range of human hearing.
But that wasn't during a conflict.
Hill .. I just wanted to apologize for jacking your thread (or contributing to it) I am just trying to help you and giving you info that has helped me and my wife. I hope you found some value in what i wrote....
MNG
Hope to see day 2 of NO DJing tomorrow!
MNG, there is value and I understand exactly what you were saying and why it works. It wouldn't work for me to verbalize it, but being aware of the time of the month is something I'll be doing.
Today is Day 2 of the NO DJ Zone. My plan is working, but it will take some time. What I didn't think about that is a positive result of eliminating my disrespectful behavior is that everything else I'm trying to accomplish has become easier. When my wife doesn't have a bitter taste in her mouth about the last DJ I made, she is more receptive to letting me meet her ENs. I just keep trying to picture a chart like those one's for a blood drive with a big ole mark on it which represents the threshold of love. I don't know how many days it may take, but I know that I'm determined to eliminate the DJs to prevent any further backslides.
On another note, in learning the MB process, have any of you observed friends or family and the level of disrespect that is rampant in marriages today? It continues to amaze me observing how the majority of spouses treat each other. It could just be my group. I find the level of sarcasm and "belittling" of spouses in public to be sad. My wife and I certainly spent many years doing this and in fact my wife still does at times which is something I need to be prepared for.
Thats GREAT Hill! Glad to see day2 no DJs ...
And in regards to your comment about noticing the high levels of disrespect in friends and family's marriages. I notice it ABSOLUTLEY. My entire family craps all over me when i bring up MB as I watch their levels of disrespect ramp up all the time. I feel that alot of my family is now jealous of my wife and I and the marriage we have. They cant bring themselves to take on MB to have what we have. When they start talking about things in their marriages/relationships and not knowing what to do about it and i bring up MB .. i get that "oh no not this again" look ALMOST as if i was about to preach to a non jesus believer who cant stand listening to it.. and they change the topic and stop talking about their problems to us. I find it quite sad to watch them .. my wife and I discuss our other familys marriages all the time.
If you had read my thread you would know my situation between my wife and I was similar as yours .. my wife and I used to go to our family for support when we struggled and they would love to hear our problems and offer solutions that NEVER WORKED! (we tried their suggestions but it only drove us futher apart, no wonder they have crappy relationships and seem to hate us sometimes). ONce we got the core of MB instilled in us (after I worked the program and convinced my wife she should too) something was still missing ... MB didnt have everything to fix me. I was a very needy/emotional/unmanly/demasculated guy.. like you. My wife would often tell me .. "stop being so needy! its VERY unattractive!" and things like "Cant you just let whatever happens happen and not put so much pressure to have sex all the time? Wheres the fun loving laid back emotionaly stable guy i used to date" .. even if it was weeks since our last SF session. If i couldnt find a way to be more of a "no big deal, let everyhting roll off my back kinda guy that doesnt get pushy or whiny or needy about his needs being unmet" I would have never gotten to where I am today in my relationship with my wife .. even with MB.
I had to become NOT needy at all ... and use some role reversing on her .. and act like i was not interested in sex .. (for a while) and play it up like I was hard to get in order for her to want me. And do alot of the things i said earlier. I dont always tease.. or bug her .. or rag on her. But when I do .. its subtle and she finds it quite funny at times .. other times not so much. I make mistakes too in some of my cocky ways.. or joke about the wrong thing. IF i do .. my wife just says . "hey .. that ones a love buster!" so i would then say "ok .. thanks for letting me know .. or "your right, I should have known that" and i carry on from that point like it didnt happen, let it roll off my back and I remember for next time. She then carrys on like it didnt happen either! My wife is AMAZING now .. we vibe so well together!
My wife has turned full circle and is the initiator now for alot of our afections/sf and like i said can hardly keep her hands off me because she can count on the fact that if things dont work out .. or we get too busy for needs to be met for whatever reason .. i dont get all needy over it. I roll with the punches and shrug it off. ITs a Whatever then .. I just think to myself .. "we are going to be togehter forever .. so theres always another day!
Whats really helping us this week is we have 9 days with NO KIDS! For the first time ever. Getting caught up in our UA time big time! We both have to work .. but its sure nice coming home to no responsibilities! They went to the Calgary Stampeed with my dads common law wife of 20 years. They come back next sunday. For some strange reason I dont miss them yet lol ... LAst weekend i took my hunneh out 4x4ing .. and fishing. She loves fishing. WE bought a cheap 2man boat that has 2 rod holders and sat in it and tied off to a tree sticking out of the lake and floated around casting and chatting all day. WE plan on this next weekend too .. heading to another lake i have never been to way out in the boonies.
Keep up the good work Hill .. things seem to be coming together for you as your more aware of your wifes triggers and being more of a laid back guy and not taking things so personally all the time.
Looking forward to day 3 no DJing!
MNG
edit to add minor detail.
Hill .. I just wanted to apologize for jacking your thread (or contributing to it) I am just trying to help you and giving you info that has helped me and my wife. I hope you found some value in what i wrote....
MNG
Hope to see day 2 of NO DJing tomorrow!
MNG, there is value and I understand exactly what you were saying and why it works. It wouldn't work for me to verbalize it, but being aware of the time of the month is something I'll be doing.
Today is Day 2 of the NO DJ Zone. My plan is working, but it will take some time. What I didn't think about that is a positive result of eliminating my disrespectful behavior is that everything else I'm trying to accomplish has become easier. When my wife doesn't have a bitter taste in her mouth about the last DJ I made, she is more receptive to letting me meet her ENs. I just keep trying to picture a chart like those one's for a blood drive with a big ole mark on it which represents the threshold of love. I don't know how many days it may take, but I know that I'm determined to eliminate the DJs to prevent any further backslides.
On another note, in learning the MB process, have any of you observed friends or family and the level of disrespect that is rampant in marriages today? It continues to amaze me observing how the majority of spouses treat each other. It could just be my group. I find the level of sarcasm and "belittling" of spouses in public to be sad. My wife and I certainly spent many years doing this and in fact my wife still does at times which is something I need to be prepared for.
Thats GREAT Hill! Glad to see day2 no DJs ...
And in regards to your comment about noticing the high levels of disrespect in friends and family's marriages. I notice it ABSOLUTLEY. My entire family craps all over me when i bring up MB as I watch their levels of disrespect ramp up all the time. I feel that alot of my family is now jealous of my wife and I and the marriage we have. They cant bring themselves to take on MB to have what we have. When they start talking about things in their marriages/relationships and not knowing what to do about it and i bring up MB .. i get that "oh no not this again" look ALMOST as if i was about to preach to a non jesus believer who cant stand listening to it.. and they change the topic and stop talking about their problems to us. I find it quite sad to watch them .. my wife and I discuss our other familys marriages all the time.
If you had read my thread you would know my situation between my wife and I was similar as yours .. my wife and I used to go to our family for support when we struggled and they would love to hear our problems and offer solutions that NEVER WORKED! (we tried their suggestions but it only drove us futher apart, no wonder they have crappy relationships and seem to hate us sometimes). ONce we got the core of MB instilled in us (after I worked the program and convinced my wife she should too) something was still missing ... MB didnt have everything to fix me. I was a very needy/emotional/unmanly/demasculated guy.. like you. My wife would often tell me .. "stop being so needy! its VERY unattractive!" and things like "Cant you just let whatever happens happen and not put so much pressure to have sex all the time? Wheres the fun loving laid back emotionaly stable guy i used to date" .. even if it was weeks since our last SF session. If i couldnt find a way to be more of a "no big deal, let everyhting roll off my back kinda guy that doesnt get pushy or whiny or needy about his needs being unmet" I would have never gotten to where I am today in my relationship with my wife .. even with MB.
I had to become NOT needy at all ... and use some role reversing on her .. and act like i was not interested in sex .. (for a while) and play it up like I was hard to get in order for her to want me. And do alot of the things i said earlier. I dont always tease.. or bug her .. or rag on her. But when I do .. its subtle and she finds it quite funny at times .. other times not so much. I make mistakes too in some of my cocky ways.. or joke about the wrong thing. IF i do .. my wife just says . "hey .. that ones a love buster!" so i would then say "ok .. thanks for letting me know .. or "your right, I should have known that" and i carry on from that point like it didnt happen, let it roll off my back and I remember for next time. She then carrys on like it didnt happen either! My wife is AMAZING now .. we vibe so well together!
My wife has turned full circle and is the initiator now for alot of our afections/sf and like i said can hardly keep her hands off me because she can count on the fact that if things dont work out .. or we get too busy for needs to be met for whatever reason .. i dont get all needy over it. I roll with the punches and shrug it off. ITs a Whatever then .. I just think to myself .. "we are going to be togehter forever .. so theres always another day!
Whats really helping us this week is we have 9 days with NO KIDS! For the first time ever. Getting caught up in our UA time big time! We both have to work .. but its sure nice coming home to no responsibilities! They went to the Calgary Stampeed with my dads common law wife of 20 years. They come back next sunday. For some strange reason I dont miss them yet lol ... LAst weekend i took my hunneh out 4x4ing .. and fishing. She loves fishing. WE bought a cheap 2man boat that has 2 rod holders and sat in it and tied off to a tree sticking out of the lake and floated around casting and chatting all day. WE plan on this next weekend too .. heading to another lake i have never been to way out in the boonies.
Keep up the good work Hill .. things seem to be coming together for you as your more aware of your wifes triggers and being more of a laid back guy and not taking things so personally all the time.
Looking forward to day 3 no DJing!
MNG
edit to add minor detail.
Yep much of this resonates and gives me promise. There are some successes you've had that I want very much to have in my marriage. I want my wife to be into me, I just have to give her a reason to be.
I want my wife to be into me, I just have to give her a reason to be.
You got it man! ... One day you will look back on the things i said and be like "wow .. you were right, its working now"
It takes time .. and practice for your new habits to take place. Just as it will take time for your wife to stop testing you on certain things. Eventually she will feel safe that cuddling/touching doesnt always have to lead to sex ... that was one of my wifes biggest problems .. becasue I would go without my needs met for a long time she would not want to touch me in fear I would beg or whine .. or get needy in regards to making more out of it than she wanted. When she did give in (as a chore in her mind) I would want more .. or i would complain it was not good enough .. or i didnt last long enough ie: neediness. I no longer care about that anymore. Whatever happens .. happens .. and because of that mind set .. it happens far more than it ever did. She feels safe now becasue she can touch .. and get me all fired up .. and then stop and I wont care I encourage it!. Mind you i express my sexual prowness in a subtle and humorous way that relives the tension about it. After all I am a man .. and a sexual and visual being ... I cant be afraid of it nor afraid to make light fun of it either. If it doesnt pan out in my favor .. no biggie .. whatever .. there is always tomorrow or another day. Make light of it and continue to have fun in whatever you can come up with to drop the subject.
One of the lines i use often with my wife now is " HEY DONT TOUCH ME THERE!" in a playful way of course say after she brushes me as she walks by or something subtle like that and she usually responds with something like " Dont touch you where.. HERE?" and then slaps my [censored] or something" SMiles at me and walks away. I will usually try to playfully dodge her to prevent her from touching. haha.. she loves it!
MNG
Edit to add minor detail.
Hey, you listened! Great! I was a little bit worried earlier that you were missing the clips BH is posting. BrainHurts is like our new Marriage Builders Radio encyclopedia. It's like having someone bring Dr. Harley into every single discussion on this website, which I've got to say has been a massive improvement.
Regarding blaming -- I have heard Dr. Harley say that he has very low success teaching wives not to blame their husbands. (I heard this in two clips from 2006 or 2007. Maybe BrainHurts can find them.
) In a way this is very discouraging to me, because you know, I HATE TO BE BLAMED! In fact, we all do. I've even heard that in cases of affairs, wives typically blame their husbands for the affair whether it was he or she who went wayward. BUT, and this is the encouraging part, Dr. Harley says that despite this blaming, he has succeeded in teaching these couples how to have good marriages. (i.e.,in love)
Thanks.
Here's a good show.
Radio clip on diasgreement and blaming Segment #2 Segment #3 (Okay, and honesty time: sometimes I WAS to blame!!
) [/quote]
Hey, you listened! Great! I was a little bit worried earlier that you were missing the clips BH is posting. BrainHurts is like our new Marriage Builders Radio encyclopedia. It's like having someone bring Dr. Harley into every single discussion on this website, which I've got to say has been a massive improvement.
Regarding blaming -- I have heard Dr. Harley say that he has very low success teaching wives not to blame their husbands. (I heard this in two clips from 2006 or 2007. Maybe BrainHurts can find them.
) In a way this is very discouraging to me, because you know, I HATE TO BE BLAMED! In fact, we all do. I've even heard that in cases of affairs, wives typically blame their husbands for the affair whether it was he or she who went wayward. BUT, and this is the encouraging part, Dr. Harley says that despite this blaming, he has succeeded in teaching these couples how to have good marriages. (i.e.,in love)
Thanks.
Here's a good show.
Radio clip on diasgreement and blaming Segment #2 Segment #3 (Okay, and honesty time: sometimes I WAS to blame!!
)
[/quote]
The take away from that first segment is that people have different perspectives on things and no matter how crazy you might believe your spouses perspective is, you have to respect it. Something in my marriage that comes up a lot is that my wife spends hours and hours researching things for the house. It is very important to get things "just right" and just how she likes them. It drives me crazy and has led to many fights over the years. I have a different view. Life is short, get 'er done, so we can go enjoy our day! I don't get her perspective and she doesn't get mine, but if I can appreciate how important things like that are you her, and she can appreciate that it does not make me happy painting the walls three times(tongue in cheek), then we'll come to an understanding about it and hopefully POJA to something that makes us both happy.
Another great clip.
Please listen to this clip on blaming.
Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on the blame game
Tomorrow I might be able to listen. In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
YES and YES. Not exactly the same but definitely similar.
I hope this is the kind of behavior that will be more likely simply not to become an issue if the other spouse gets on board--they will be hopefully actively trying to NOT love bust then. BUT I am still trying to sort out what is a reasonable complaint and what should be avoided for the sake of trying not to love bust. I certainly want my spouse to have right to make a complaint b/c I know its important. But how often does this need to be? Should uncertain things be brought up? And surely they should believe you if you say something? Like when you said that had not turned on the AC or a conversion along those lines that occured btwn my DH and me today.
Used to bother me a lot. Noe I realize my marriage is better served by a philosophy of "everyone's entitled to their opinions, even if wrong." Avoid trying to straighten your wife out like this. It's a lovebank withdrawal. She can still fall in love with you even if she holds opinions about you that you believe are mistaken. You may worry that her belief that you left the ac on is a lovebank withdrawal, but you will lose out worse trying to fix it. Respect her and respect this as a simple difference of opinion. Otherwise you will make her feel extremely unimportant.
No, Jessica, your spouse is entitled to their own beliefs and should not have to believe something just because you say it.
Tomorrow I might be able to listen. In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
I started saying, "Thanks! I didn't know that."
It's truthful, it's kind, and it lets the other person feel heard.
That or, "you may be right."
You are not saying they are, you are not saying they aren't. You are simply saying something to let it go.
How to DEAL with it internally is another matter. At some point, you have to be honest about how this little love buster impacts you.
The question is, do you believe she cares? (Not a DJ, I'm asking your opinion, your belief, we both know she could feel differently than you think/believe she does.) Is the cost of being honest worth the benefit you might get out of it. I.E. do you prefer being right, or married?
Yeah, you want both, but sometimes you can't have that.
Tomorrow I might be able to listen. In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
I started saying, "Thanks! I didn't know that."
It's truthful, it's kind, and it lets the other person feel heard.
Hi Hilltopper!
I don't make it around much anymore, work has exploded and I'm content to sleep a few hours and eat a meal or two a day lately, but I had to send the forum link to a friend dealing with an affair tonight and noticed you posting.
A book that I was forced to read for work that has helped me in my marriage was Crucial Confrontations/Crucial Conversations. There are two, and to me they promote a communication of keeping the conversation safe, learning to recognize when the other person is no longer 'safe' and communicating, and promote almost POJA throughout. They in no way replace Dr Harley's books or work, but they helped me be able to utilize POJA/PORH better with DH because of how I communicated. Some people, like my boss, just have this naturally. Me, not so much.
Good Luck!
Tomorrow I might be able to listen. In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
I started saying, "Thanks! I didn't know that."
It's truthful, it's kind, and it lets the other person feel heard.
Good call here. I like that model and will begin using it immediately.
That or, "you may be right."
You are not saying they are, you are not saying they aren't. You are simply saying something to let it go.
How to DEAL with it internally is another matter. At some point, you have to be honest about how this little love buster impacts you.
The question is, do you believe she cares? (Not a DJ, I'm asking your opinion, your belief, we both know she could feel differently than you think/believe she does.) Is the cost of being honest worth the benefit you might get out of it. I.E. do you prefer being right, or married?
Yeah, you want both, but sometimes you can't have that.
Tomorrow I might be able to listen. In the mean time I have a question for you all. How do you deal with untrue accusations, even if they are not all that important? Wife sent me a text in the afternoon and said I had left the A/C on. I said, it must have been from the night before because I didn't turn the A/C on when I came home for lunch. She said that she had turned it off when she left in the morning. My inclination as a very literal person is to get the story straight. In the past I probably would have insisted on truth no matter how trivial and inflamed my wife more than likely. I ignored it because in the end what possible good could come from me pursuing truth on something as silly as that? Have any of you encountered this regularly? Does it bother you?
I started saying, "Thanks! I didn't know that."
It's truthful, it's kind, and it lets the other person feel heard.
See that is the key. I don't think she really cares and her Love Bank is the same as it was before she thought I left the A/C on. She has repeatedly said over the last 10 years of marriage, "You always have to be right." I used to respond, "Well honey there is truth and there is untruth. There is right and there is wrong." Major love buster. It is as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you want to believe in something that is false, you are a fool for doing so." No wonder she didn't like me back then.
We had a similar discussion about weight loss last night. Sure there are a myriad of things that contribute to a successful weight loss journey, but for the most part it is in creating a calorie deficit. 3500 calories = 1 lb of fat and she wanted to know how many calories between now and our vacation she needed to burn with her BMI to lose X number of lbs. She did not see it the way I saw it. I'm smarter now than I used to be, so I shut my mouth on it till a little later in dinner when she got around to asking me to show her on my phone. Ding, ding, ding! It made perfect sense to her and so we created a chart that lasts 28 days to measure our progress. Difference is it was on her terms and it was done without being a know it all, condescending, lecturing jerk.
Hi Hilltopper!
I don't make it around much anymore, work has exploded and I'm content to sleep a few hours and eat a meal or two a day lately, but I had to send the forum link to a friend dealing with an affair tonight and noticed you posting.
A book that I was forced to read for work that has helped me in my marriage was Crucial Confrontations/Crucial Conversations. There are two, and to me they promote a communication of keeping the conversation safe, learning to recognize when the other person is no longer 'safe' and communicating, and promote almost POJA throughout. They in no way replace Dr Harley's books or work, but they helped me be able to utilize POJA/PORH better with DH because of how I communicated. Some people, like my boss, just have this naturally. Me, not so much.
Good Luck!
This is kind of like picking and choosing your battles. Whereas we can't control our emotions and reactions to certain things, we CAN control how we respond to them with our brains. My heart told me to immediately point out an untruth, but my brain knew that keeping the conversation safe meant to take the high road. In addition my brain told me that there was no benefit in choosing to fight this battle whatsoever and that my wife's love bank and mine would both fall had I pursued it.
This is kind of like picking and choosing your battles. Whereas we can't control our emotions and reactions to certain things, we CAN control how we respond to them with our brains. My heart told me to immediately point out an untruth, but my brain knew that keeping the conversation safe meant to take the high road. In addition my brain told me that there was no benefit in choosing to fight this battle whatsoever and that my wife's love bank and mine would both fall had I pursued it.
One thing my wife and I noticed after we got committed to not trying to straighten each other out, was that our children tried to do that to each other (and to us) all the time.
So now one of the things we are constantly saying is "Hey, don't try to straighten your brother out." And we hear hysterical cries from little guys of "S said .... " and we patiently reply "Just say 'Okay, S,'" and slowly but surely we are turning the hysteria off and raising kids who might be really nice and respectful adults some day.
It's really something to me when I see my own bad behavior executed by my child. Magnified, and done in a six year old way.
Teaching them serves as a reminder to me that it's okay if other people are "wrong" (i.e., remember something different from me) from time to time.
See that is the key. I don't think she really cares and her Love Bank is the same as it was before she thought I left the A/C on. She has repeatedly said over the last 10 years of marriage, "You always have to be right." I used to respond, "Well honey there is truth and there is untruth. There is right and there is wrong." Major love buster. It is as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you want to believe in something that is false, you are a fool for doing so." No wonder she didn't like me back then.
We had a similar discussion about weight loss last night. Sure there are a myriad of things that contribute to a successful weight loss journey, but for the most part it is in creating a calorie deficit. 3500 calories = 1 lb of fat and she wanted to know how many calories between now and our vacation she needed to burn with her BMI to lose X number of lbs. She did not see it the way I saw it. I'm smarter now than I used to be, so I shut my mouth on it till a little later in dinner when she got around to asking me to show her on my phone. Ding, ding, ding! It made perfect sense to her and so we created a chart that lasts 28 days to measure our progress. Difference is it was on her terms and it was done without being a know it all, condescending, lecturing jerk.
Threadjack: you sound like a man who's read the Hacker's Diet.
Learning to have a respectful conversation is an amazing process. You are right, there is truth, and there is untruth. But it's just amazing to sit and talk with someone who believes something completely different about truth, and put the conversation into a mode of "I want to understand what you believe, and why, and I want to be able to explain it, in my own words, from your point of view."
Part of the key is what Dr. Harley has in his article on religious differences / respectful persuasion on this site: willingness to be persuaded. That's hard to do when you are convinced you are right, but giving your wife the opportunity to persuade you opens incredible doors by showing immense respect.
See that is the key. I don't think she really cares and her Love Bank is the same as it was before she thought I left the A/C on. She has repeatedly said over the last 10 years of marriage, "You always have to be right." I used to respond, "Well honey there is truth and there is untruth. There is right and there is wrong." Major love buster. It is as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you want to believe in something that is false, you are a fool for doing so." No wonder she didn't like me back then.
We had a similar discussion about weight loss last night. Sure there are a myriad of things that contribute to a successful weight loss journey, but for the most part it is in creating a calorie deficit. 3500 calories = 1 lb of fat and she wanted to know how many calories between now and our vacation she needed to burn with her BMI to lose X number of lbs. She did not see it the way I saw it. I'm smarter now than I used to be, so I shut my mouth on it till a little later in dinner when she got around to asking me to show her on my phone. Ding, ding, ding! It made perfect sense to her and so we created a chart that lasts 28 days to measure our progress. Difference is it was on her terms and it was done without being a know it all, condescending, lecturing jerk.
Keep it up!
And you'll have one lucky wife. I'd love for my husband to learn this
See that is the key. I don't think she really cares and her Love Bank is the same as it was before she thought I left the A/C on. She has repeatedly said over the last 10 years of marriage, "You always have to be right." I used to respond, "Well honey there is truth and there is untruth. There is right and there is wrong." Major love buster. It is as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you want to believe in something that is false, you are a fool for doing so." No wonder she didn't like me back then.
We had a similar discussion about weight loss last night. Sure there are a myriad of things that contribute to a successful weight loss journey, but for the most part it is in creating a calorie deficit. 3500 calories = 1 lb of fat and she wanted to know how many calories between now and our vacation she needed to burn with her BMI to lose X number of lbs. She did not see it the way I saw it. I'm smarter now than I used to be, so I shut my mouth on it till a little later in dinner when she got around to asking me to show her on my phone. Ding, ding, ding! It made perfect sense to her and so we created a chart that lasts 28 days to measure our progress. Difference is it was on her terms and it was done without being a know it all, condescending, lecturing jerk.
Threadjack: you sound like a man who's read the Hacker's Diet.
Learning to have a respectful conversation is an amazing process. You are right, there is truth, and there is untruth. But it's just amazing to sit and talk with someone who believes something completely different about truth, and put the conversation into a mode of "I want to understand what you believe, and why, and I want to be able to explain it, in my own words, from your point of view."
Part of the key is what Dr. Harley has in his article on religious differences / respectful persuasion on this site: willingness to be persuaded. That's hard to do when you are convinced you are right, but giving your wife the opportunity to persuade you opens incredible doors by showing immense respect.
So true, so true. Part of the reason that my wife always told me that I make her feel stupid is because guess what? I DID! Who in their right mind would want to spend time with someone that would consistently make them feel stupid? I know I wouldn't and neither would my wife. If my wife asks me how something works I'd love to tell her, but providing unsolicited commentary on something she might say that I believe to be false in an effort to educate or belittle her is a big giant No No!
Hill,
Have you ever gone back and reread your thread and seen how far you've grown?
From an outsider it's educational.
Hill,
Have you ever gone back and reread your thread and seen how far you've grown?
From an outsider it's educational.
Yes I did that awhile back. Not sure why my thread has traction, probably because we had my wife Tgrace posting for a good 4-5 months and it was heated!
So true, so true. Part of the reason that my wife always told me that I make her feel stupid is because guess what? I DID! Who in their right mind would want to spend time with someone that would consistently make them feel stupid? I know I wouldn't and neither would my wife.
You're figuring this out.
Prisca used to complain that I would talk circles around her. I honestly had no idea what she meant. She meant this! I haven't heard this complaint in a while, so I hope that that means I'm doing better.
If my wife asks me how something works I'd love to tell her, but providing unsolicited commentary on something she might say that I believe to be false in an effort to educate or belittle her is a big giant No No!
I love Dr. Harley's "no unsolicited advice" policy. It's goof for all of life!
I love Dr. Harley's "no unsolicited advice" policy. It's goof for all of life!
So is spellcheck...oops, that was unsolicited
So true, so true. Part of the reason that my wife always told me that I make her feel stupid is because guess what? I DID! Who in their right mind would want to spend time with someone that would consistently make them feel stupid? I know I wouldn't and neither would my wife.
You're figuring this out.
Prisca used to complain that I would talk circles around her. I honestly had no idea what she meant. She meant this! I haven't heard this complaint in a while, so I hope that that means I'm doing better.
If my wife asks me how something works I'd love to tell her, but providing unsolicited commentary on something she might say that I believe to be false in an effort to educate or belittle her is a big giant No No!
I love Dr. Harley's "no unsolicited advice" policy. It's goof for all of life!
Yes there are too many parallels between Markos/Prisca and Hilltopper/Tgrace aren't there? She frequently would tell me that I would present arguments as, "Well I'm sorry, but the facts are just the facts." It was as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but you'll have to stop feeling that way immediately because I've figured it all out myself for you so you don't have to." Ugggh, gross behavior.
This is Day 3 of the NO DJ Zone!
Way to go, buddy! Keep up the good work!
I love Dr. Harley's "no unsolicited advice" policy. It's goof for all of life!
So is spellcheck...oops, that was unsolicited
BWAHAHA!
She frequently would tell me that I would present arguments as, "Well I'm sorry, but the facts are just the facts." It was as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but you'll have to stop feeling that way immediately because I've figured it all out myself for you so you don't have to."
Yep, the facts are just the facts, and can't you see the obvious truth?
We husbands are seriously bad about trying to control our wives feelings. We are
SCARED TO DEATH of those feelings and the damage they might do, it makes us nervous and anxious, and we have an immediate fight or flight response, don't we?
If a typical man had written Marriage Builders, the entire program would be one short pamphlet addressed to wives saying "Stop feeling that way."
Instead, Dr. Harley wrote Marriage Builders to men saying "Listen to your wife's complaints, and act on them. You'll be a better person for it and make better decisions in life, she'll be more happier than you can possibly imagine, she'll make
you more happy than you can possibly imagine. So listen to her complaints. Even if she hasn't figured out how to express them respectfully, yet."
If a typical man had written Marriage Builders, the entire program would be one short pamphlet addressed to wives saying "Stop feeling that way."
[sarcasm]
I thought that WAS the answer! ? :P
[/sarcasm]
On a side note, thats great Hill! Hope to see day 10 of no DJing!
She frequently would tell me that I would present arguments as, "Well I'm sorry, but the facts are just the facts." It was as if to say, "Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but you'll have to stop feeling that way immediately because I've figured it all out myself for you so you don't have to."
Yep, the facts are just the facts, and can't you see the obvious truth?
We husbands are seriously bad about trying to control our wives feelings. We are
SCARED TO DEATH of those feelings and the damage they might do, it makes us nervous and anxious, and we have an immediate fight or flight response, don't we?
If a typical man had written Marriage Builders, the entire program would be one short pamphlet addressed to wives saying "Stop feeling that way."
Instead, Dr. Harley wrote Marriage Builders to men saying "Listen to your wife's complaints, and act on them. You'll be a better person for it and make better decisions in life, she'll be more happier than you can possibly imagine, she'll make
you more happy than you can possibly imagine. So listen to her complaints. Even if she hasn't figured out how to express them respectfully, yet."
I believe in all of this, but it is still overwhelming. My wife complains a lot and she is showing no sign of slowing down. Normally Dr H would advise her, if she was a MB student, to only complain about the top 3 things that bother her. I couldn't possibly field every single complaint and address them all without my head exploding. What I am doing is listening and trying to comprehend what she means. Sometimes a complaint is really just my wife venting. She really doesn't want me to "do" or "not do" anything, she is just needing a partner that she can vent to. In fact I've explained this better myself when I need to vent. In my experience venting sometimes can be taken as a DJ by your spouse unless otherwise explained. In fact, now that I think about it, most of my wife's complaints have nothing to do with me, geez why didn't I figure that out before? I've felt attacked for years and I don't need to. I need to take each comment, analyze it, and react accordingly. In fact if I can continue to eliminate DJs while becoming my wife's #1 shoulder to cry on/vent on I think there is an excellent chance she'll cross that threshold.
Venting?
Hmmmm...
I get the idea, but I don't know how "venting" fits into MB?
What comes to mind from my time here; a particular poster who liked to vent and/or "brain dump" to her husband, which he did not enjoy. She was advised by her phone coach to stop venting about her work day to her (B)H.
The mention that uncontrolled emotional outbursts (not just angry, mind you, but even tearful ones) with your spouse is not conducive to being a pleasant companion.
Allowing her to constantly "vent" is going to drain her LB$ account with you - it's a win/lose situation, sir.
Venting?
Hmmmm...
I get the idea, but I don't know how "venting" fits into MB?
What comes to mind from my time here; a particular poster who liked to vent and/or "brain dump" to her husband, which he did not enjoy. She was advised by her phone coach to stop venting about her work day to her (B)H.
The mention that uncontrolled emotional outbursts (not just angry, mind you, but even tearful ones) with your spouse is not conducive to being a pleasant companion.
Allowing her to constantly "vent" is going to drain her LB$ account with you - it's a win/lose situation, sir.
I hear you and yes it could be a drag to be around someone that is constantly dumping on me. I think it really depends on if it bothers me or not. My wife is definitely never angry when she vents(if that is the appropriate terminology). I'll monitor how I feel when she does this today and next week and see how it goes. Point taken.
I believe in all of this, but it is still overwhelming. My wife complains a lot and she is showing no sign of slowing down. Normally Dr H would advise her, if she was a MB student, to only complain about the top 3 things that bother her. I couldn't possibly field every single complaint and address them all without my head exploding.
Yep. So you gotta just do the best you can and not SD/DJ/AO if she decides to become disrespectful over an (as yet) unaddressed complaint. As the problem pile grows smaller, this problem will get better.
Some complaints will go straight to your list of "incubating" problems. The ones that you are sitting on while brainstorming solutions. Sometimes she will even join you in brainstorming solutions. Sometimes you'll be able to just up and solve a problem she told you about two weeks ago, and she'll be thrilled, and you'll be the hero. Sometimes, you'll come back to her with an idea: "How would you feel about ... ?"
Throughout it all, you'll be doing what Dr. Harley says: becoming a part of the solutions to her problems, instead of somebody she blames for them.
At the seminar and on the radio, Dr. Harley talks about there being three areas that have to be good to have a good marriage. One is emotional needs (HNHN), one is love busters, and one is a compatible lifestyle that both enjoy (negotiation). I think there's some of us where the main problems are that third area of unnegotiated problems rather than love busters and meeting emotional needs. The unhappy lifestyle full of problems makes one or both spouses depressed, the love busters prevent solutions to problems, but once the love busters are gone and the problems are solved, romance can return.
What I am doing is listening and trying to comprehend what she means. Sometimes a complaint is really just my wife venting. She really doesn't want me to "do" or "not do" anything, she is just needing a partner that she can vent to. In fact I've explained this better myself when I need to vent. In my experience venting sometimes can be taken as a DJ by your spouse unless otherwise explained.
Yes, and it can be quite scary to a problem solving man to have a completely non-problem-solving conversation. But it can be quite fulfilling to her! Sometimes she just needs someone to talk to.
I was struck by a comment Dr. H made on the radio: if she were in an affair, she would be talking to her affair partner about the problems in her life. Take away message for me: if I wanted her to be in love with me, I had to engage in talk with her about the problems she saw in life, even if it scared me.
In fact, now that I think about it, most of my wife's complaints have nothing to do with me, geez why didn't I figure that out before? I've felt attacked for years and I don't need to.
This sounds pretty common from posts I've seen on Dr. Harley's private forum. We husbands want to provide an enjoyable lifestyle, and any indication that it's not enjoyable we take as a personal request to fix it, and if we're put in a situation where we can't fix it we take it as disrespectful. When really that may not be what she was saying at all.
I need to take each comment, analyze it, and react accordingly. In fact if I can continue to eliminate DJs while becoming my wife's #1 shoulder to cry on/vent on I think there is an excellent chance she'll cross that threshold.
Yes!
Is this day 4?
Venting?
Hmmmm...
I get the idea, but I don't know how "venting" fits into MB?
You're right; it doesn't. But she is not on board with MB right now.
She'll feel a lot less like venting down the road.
I believe in all of this, but it is still overwhelming. My wife complains a lot and she is showing no sign of slowing down. Normally Dr H would advise her, if she was a MB student, to only complain about the top 3 things that bother her. I couldn't possibly field every single complaint and address them all without my head exploding.
Yep. So you gotta just do the best you can and not SD/DJ/AO if she decides to become disrespectful over an (as yet) unaddressed complaint. As the problem pile grows smaller, this problem will get better.
Some complaints will go straight to your list of "incubating" problems. The ones that you are sitting on while brainstorming solutions. Sometimes she will even join you in brainstorming solutions. Sometimes you'll be able to just up and solve a problem she told you about two weeks ago, and she'll be thrilled, and you'll be the hero. Sometimes, you'll come back to her with an idea: "How would you feel about ... ?"
Throughout it all, you'll be doing what Dr. Harley says: becoming a part of the solutions to her problems, instead of somebody she blames for them.
At the seminar and on the radio, Dr. Harley talks about there being three areas that have to be good to have a good marriage. One is emotional needs (HNHN), one is love busters, and one is a compatible lifestyle that both enjoy (negotiation). I think there's some of us where the main problems are that third area of unnegotiated problems rather than love busters and meeting emotional needs. The unhappy lifestyle full of problems makes one or both spouses depressed, the love busters prevent solutions to problems, but once the love busters are gone and the problems are solved, romance can return.
What I am doing is listening and trying to comprehend what she means. Sometimes a complaint is really just my wife venting. She really doesn't want me to "do" or "not do" anything, she is just needing a partner that she can vent to. In fact I've explained this better myself when I need to vent. In my experience venting sometimes can be taken as a DJ by your spouse unless otherwise explained.
Yes, and it can be quite scary to a problem solving man to have a completely non-problem-solving conversation. But it can be quite fulfilling to her! Sometimes she just needs someone to talk to.
I was struck by a comment Dr. H made on the radio: if she were in an affair, she would be talking to her affair partner about the problems in her life. Take away message for me: if I wanted her to be in love with me, I had to engage in talk with her about the problems she saw in life, even if it scared me.
In fact, now that I think about it, most of my wife's complaints have nothing to do with me, geez why didn't I figure that out before? I've felt attacked for years and I don't need to.
This sounds pretty common from posts I've seen on Dr. Harley's private forum. We husbands want to provide an enjoyable lifestyle, and any indication that it's not enjoyable we take as a personal request to fix it, and if we're put in a situation where we can't fix it we take it as disrespectful. When really that may not be what she was saying at all.
I need to take each comment, analyze it, and react accordingly. In fact if I can continue to eliminate DJs while becoming my wife's #1 shoulder to cry on/vent on I think there is an excellent chance she'll cross that threshold.
Yes!
Is this day 4?
Yes this is Day 4 of the No DJ Zone.
Excellent, excellent stuff here, quite a breakthrough in my mind. I think what you are saying is that as a problem solving guy I would take each comment or complaint as disrespectful based on the fact that I couldn't fix her problem? Do I have that right? Is it possible that if I am able to recognize the difference between my wife having a problem vs a complaint about me then I'll eliminate much of the conflict? If something around the house bothers my wife, I customarily take it as a direct criticism of me not having found out about it and fixed it without asking. These will be hard to recognize based on her frequent disrespectful tone or context. Secondly, the sheer number of "We need to...." sentences tends to stress me out sometimes, so whether it is a complaint or not sometimes doesn't matter. If I were to make a respectful request of my wife it would be to lower the total number of problem-related comments over a 24 hour period. Not sure how to do that without being disrespectful.
Hm...what do you think about asking her to write them down instead? You could tell her that you want to address her complaints but are having trouble remembering all of them, so you thought a solution would be for either her or you to keep a list so that you can cross them off once they're done.
And then there's the side effect of seeing them written down--perhaps she is unaware of the number.
And crossing them off would help her see your efforts.
And writing down complaints that you can do nothing about *should* appear silly to her after a time. It would also encourage her to consider whether this is a write-it-down type of complaint, and having to think about that could curb her tendency to give voice to every irritant.
You'd have to be wary of using the list to mock her--you are to take her complaints seriously.
Yes I agree.
Dr. Harley suggests for women to prioritize their complaints and to do a few at a time.
Hm...what do you think about asking her to write them down instead? You could tell her that you want to address her complaints but are having trouble remembering all of them, so you thought a solution would be for either her or you to keep a list so that you can cross them off once they're done.
And then there's the side effect of seeing them written down--perhaps she is unaware of the number.
And crossing them off would help her see your efforts.
And writing down complaints that you can do nothing about *should* appear silly to her after a time. It would also encourage her to consider whether this is a write-it-down type of complaint, and having to think about that could curb her tendency to give voice to every irritant.
You'd have to be wary of using the list to mock her--you are to take her complaints seriously.
Its not so much a list of things that can be solved, it is a verbalization of anything that irritates her or stresses her out. There is also a tremendous amount of sighing and other kind of doom and gloom over things that she gets overwhelmed by. I guess I feel like I need to respond to them all and if I don't she says, "Uh huh," as if I'm ignoring her.
Has she always been like that, or is it only after three kids and a less-than-satisfying marriage?
What are you doing to put some stress-relieving fun into the marriage? Ziplining? Swing dancing? Any physically active dates going on?
Has she always been like that, or is it only after three kids and a less-than-satisfying marriage?
What are you doing to put some stress-relieving fun into the marriage? Ziplining? Swing dancing? Any physically active dates going on?
We have tons of fun together without the kids. Mostly nights out to dinner, shopping, book store, etc. Sometimes running, but not as much as we'd like. Overnight at the Four Seasons for our anniversary. Massages at least once per week. Today she has to drive down to a baby shower over an hour away with the two girls while I stay with the boy. Everything from picking the gift, to directions(I printed out for her), to the time it takes has been commented on. Lots of sighs and what I would describe as drama. To answer your question, yes she has always been like that, but it is significantly worse now with 3 kids. Marriage is as good as it has been in 5 years, but we have a long way to go. The 3rd child would be the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm just gonna continue to eliminate the DJs, be understanding when I can, be a problem solver when appropriate, etc. When she crosses the threshold I think the two of us will be awesome, but I do not see the doom and gloom with life's daily duties going away. I want her to view me as the only person that "get's her," and because of that I become her #1 companion to be with. The doom and gloom bothers me a lot more when my needs aren't being met. The traps I frequently fall into are when I'm feeling neglected. When I'm feeling neglected I tend to react to her doom and gloom by straightening her out. Huge mistake to do that and one I cannot afford to do if I want her to love me and be into me. I don't think the doom and gloom bothers me nearly as much when I feel that she is attending to me.
BTW, when she reads the phrase "doom and gloom," she is likely to feel that it's disrespectful.
(I only just now noticed that!)
BTW, when she reads the phrase "doom and gloom," she is likely to feel that it's disrespectful.
(I only just now noticed that!)
Yes aware of that. I guess I know she doesn't come here anymore but yes I should have picked a more appropriate phrase.
Well, hopefully she'll be back some day.
Dr. Harley says if you keep a journal, be willing for her to see it all. Count this place as a journal.
Besides, being respectful all the time and learning to tell us about your problems in a way that is respectful to her is good practice. If you can't talk to us respectfully about the problems, you'll never be able to talk to her respectfully about them.
My wife walked through the door and said, "Did you return that stuff on the counter from the store?" I didn't return the stuff from the store, because she did not ask me to return the stuff to the store. I felt criticized and/or attacked. To me the implications meant that I annoyed her for not seeing the bag and receipt and surmising that she wanted it done. Was I wrong to feel this way? Did I overreact?
I responded with a, "I really wish you could come home after a long day and kiss me on the cheek or ask me how my day was rather than the first words being a criticism of me." I had some attitude I suppose and she took big offense to it. It's hard to describe the reaction I get when this happens, but it is kind of along the lines of, "you're ridiculous for being offended by that." Does that make sense? So I took the bait and messed up and I'll once again finish the night with no disrespect. What I'm trying to figure out through bringing you these short stories is what she truly is telling me. I learned that if there is a dish in the sink and I have time to clean it then I will. I learned that if there is a bag with receipt and I have time that I'll return it. What I'm struggling with is my emotions. I felt offended, was it offensive?
I guess what I feel is an enormous sense of injustice. She didn't ask me to do something, then complained that I didn't figure it out. That isn't fair to me. Had she asked me to return it and I failed to do so then I would have no problem fielding the complaint you know? I get the same feeling when she blames someone for something when it wasn't there fault, or when she asks me to pick up my clothes from the floor even though she does the same thing. It all seems to center around truth, or justice, or hypocrisy? I'm not really sure, but there is a pattern that I need to break and a method I need to create when these things come up because I have an extremely hard time not letting my emotions stir when this happens. Specifically I'd like some you to address this whole obsession with this truth serum or whatever it is I have.
Have you used Marriage Coaching offered in this website?
Is she receptive to that?
The correct response would have been, "No."
Asking you a question is not criticism! Try simply answering questions. Did you? No. Why not? Didn't know. Will you? Sure, tomorrow. Thanks, hun!
TRY IT.
Have you used Marriage Coaching offered in this website?
Is she receptive to that?
She is opposed to the entire site.
The correct response would have been, "No."
Asking you a question is not criticism! Try simply answering questions. Did you? No. Why not? Didn't know. Will you? Sure, tomorrow. Thanks, hun!
TRY IT.
I understand and I will try it. Dr H often says that the measurement of whether something is a DJ would be based on the feelings of the offended spouse? In this case that was me. I still think I need to be able to ascertain the difference between a DJ or SD, and that of a question with no underlying criticism. My wife has made it a point for as long as I can remember to point out flaws in my character. I have done this too to her, but for what I'm trying to accomplish I'd like to focus on me handling her verbalization's correctly. When she asked if I had returned something that she did not ask me to return I immediately felt attacked and painted into a corner that I could not possibly win from. If I respectfully disagree, she gets upset that I always take things the wrong way. If I take the high road then I believe this empowers her to do more of the same in the future which drains my love bank. I still say there is an element of truth serum that I don't do well with. If something isn't true then I feel compelled to point it out. If something isn't fair I do the same thing, especially with my kids. I guess I'm a very principled person and I'll let you guys guide me on the pitfalls of being this way, and when or how to pick and choose my battles.
I still say there is an element of truth serum that I don't do well with. If something isn't true then I feel compelled to point it out.
Hilltopper,
remember the old saying, "do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"
I second CWMIs idea for a response.
I'm thinking she asked you if you had returned the item in an annoyed tone of voice, raising your defenses? What do you think she would have responded if you would have answered simply in an even tone, "no"? That was the truth, correct?
I think you are inferring she was mad about it, but that is not inherent in the words said, even if it may be true. And you can deescalate the situation by just handling it calmly.
I am thinking Dr. Harley's idea that a DJ is in the eyes of the offended spouse would be more applicable once you have her buy in on MB concepts, because she has fallen back in love with you.
Hill, when me and my H were at our roughest, he took everything I said poorly. He could come home from work and I'd ask, "How was your day?" and he claimed I was interrogating him. I'd say I preferred Pepsi over Coke, and because he likes Coke, he claimed I was calling him an idiot with bad taste. Sometimes you just have to accept that YOUR truth isn't universal, and other people are entitled to their own opinions, and MOST OF ALL: ascribing intent to someone else who has not explicitly expressed it is a DJ.
As someone who lived with a person who took every statement as a personal attack, I have to let you know: you are exhausting to live with. I imagine Grace feels much like she must walk on eggshells in order to live peacefully with you, and has decided she's not willing to crumble under your massive, know-it-all ego. You don't know everything, Hill, and you certainly don't own the truth about other people's opinions. If she *did* feel like you should have taken the item back to the store, so what? Why does that feel like an attack? Oh, that's right, because:
I could not possibly win from.
Win what, exactly? Your ability to continue to be right about any and all things under the sun? Probably if you got over this incessant need to win (and Grace lose, apparently), you'd see some improvement.
"Principled person"--what do you mean by this? Is one of your principles to get your knickers in a knot every time your wife asks you a question? To immediately jump into defense mode, so you can be assured of "winning"?
In our case, the answer lied (mostly) in my H's reactions. Because I was committed to working MB, I was more aware of what I was saying, and because we were coaching w/Steve, I could have dialog with my H about his reactions (What is it about "Have you fed the dog?" that made you feel attacked?--much like you, he felt bad because he couldn't say, "Yes!" He FELT that I was asking him in order to point out what a lousy husband, dog owner, and man he was because he couldn't even feed the flipping dog. Was that my intent? No, my intent was to not double-feed the dog, which was acting hungry. If it had been fed, a small snack would do. Contrary to my H's opinion, I had not been watching his every move so unless I asked, I had no idea if he fed the dog.)
Anyway, when you read about someone else in the same type of situation, does it look any dumber to you?
I still say there is an element of truth serum that I don't do well with. If something isn't true then I feel compelled to point it out.
Hilltopper,
remember the old saying, "do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"
I second CWMIs idea for a response.
I'm thinking she asked you if you had returned the item in an annoyed tone of voice, raising your defenses? What do you think she would have responded if you would have answered simply in an even tone, "no"? That was the truth, correct?
I think you are inferring she was mad about it, but that is not inherent in the words said, even if it may be true. And you can deescalate the situation by just handling it calmly.
I am thinking Dr. Harley's idea that a DJ is in the eyes of the offended spouse would be more applicable once you have her buy in on MB concepts, because she has fallen back in love with you.
Yes she asked it with tone which raised my defenses and I don't know if she was mad about it or not. I don't know if the tone and look on her face had anything to do with irritation about me or if it is just that she is overwhelmed and this is how she vents.
Hill, when me and my H were at our roughest, he took everything I said poorly. He could come home from work and I'd ask, "How was your day?" and he claimed I was interrogating him. I'd say I preferred Pepsi over Coke, and because he likes Coke, he claimed I was calling him an idiot with bad taste. Sometimes you just have to accept that YOUR truth isn't universal, and other people are entitled to their own opinions, and MOST OF ALL: ascribing intent to someone else who has not explicitly expressed it is a DJ.
As someone who lived with a person who took every statement as a personal attack, I have to let you know: you are exhausting to live with. I imagine Grace feels much like she must walk on eggshells in order to live peacefully with you, and has decided she's not willing to crumble under your massive, know-it-all ego. You don't know everything, Hill, and you certainly don't own the truth about other people's opinions. If she *did* feel like you should have taken the item back to the store, so what? Why does that feel like an attack? Oh, that's right, because:
I could not possibly win from.
Win what, exactly? Your ability to continue to be right about any and all things under the sun? Probably if you got over this incessant need to win (and Grace lose, apparently), you'd see some improvement.
"Principled person"--what do you mean by this? Is one of your principles to get your knickers in a knot every time your wife asks you a question? To immediately jump into defense mode, so you can be assured of "winning"?
In our case, the answer lied (mostly) in my H's reactions. Because I was committed to working MB, I was more aware of what I was saying, and because we were coaching w/Steve, I could have dialog with my H about his reactions (What is it about "Have you fed the dog?" that made you feel attacked?--much like you, he felt bad because he couldn't say, "Yes!" He FELT that I was asking him in order to point out what a lousy husband, dog owner, and man he was because he couldn't even feed the flipping dog. Was that my intent? No, my intent was to not double-feed the dog, which was acting hungry. If it had been fed, a small snack would do. Contrary to my H's opinion, I had not been watching his every move so unless I asked, I had no idea if he fed the dog.)
Anyway, when you read about someone else in the same type of situation, does it look any dumber to you?
Fair enough, I think you are right, and yes it must be exhausting to live with. I don't know how I got to this point, but it is not where I once was for the majority of our marriage, really just about the last couple of years. I guess one reason that I might be hyper-sensitive to assuming everything is a criticism is because there is no balance. If she countered it with anything positive(there is virtually nothing) it might not bother me so much. The fact that meeting her ENs or just positive things in general don't have any confirmation it seems that everything is a screw up. She doesn't ask me questions that have a yes answer for the most part. From my perspective I feel that she zeros in on negatives and "no's" and it is incessant and exhausting. That clearly makes two of us walking on egg shells.
Dr H talks about it being much easier to change a behavior that bothers someone that it is to change a reaction to a behavior. Is that different in my case? What you are saying is that I need to change my reaction to something she tells me, not her changing the way she tells me something.
By the way, poor choice of words about being "put in a place where I can't win." I don't want to win, I just want to avoid conflict with my wife because it drains both of our love banks. What I meant was that, the moment she asked the question I felt put in a place where conflict was inevitable and there is no answer or reaction that I could give to stop it.
I guess one reason that I might be hyper-sensitive to assuming everything is a criticism is because there is no balance. If she countered it with anything positive(there is virtually nothing) it might not bother me so much.
A husband typically feels that his wife's complaints are endless. They aren't, but he typically feels that way. If she is not careful about the way she presents her complaints (and your wife is not), then it can be very demotivating.
But her complaints are not endless. Eventually when they are addressed, it no longer feels like she is finding fault all the time.
It sounds to me like you are doing very well, actually. Just sitting in one of those demotivational points. Why? Because your wife was disrespectful, which is very demotivating.
The fact that meeting her ENs or just positive things in general don't have any confirmation it seems that everything is a screw up.
The problem is that there is a long delay in the feedback. Crossing the romantic love threshold (say, from 599 to 600) is SUDDEN and DRAMATIC, according to Dr. Harley. But crossing other lower points doesn't present any feedback, even if you are going from 130 to 590. You might take a gigantic step, and be almost at the goal, and yet see no feedback at all.
However, us onlookers can watch, and mention that you seem to be doing well. And you do. It sounds to me like you are working your plan, making the deposits she allows, tackling her complaints one by one, and learning to not respond to her disrespect with disrespect of your own. Which is fantastic!
Dr H talks about it being much easier to change a behavior that bothers someone that it is to change a reaction to a behavior. Is that different in my case? What you are saying is that I need to change my reaction to something she tells me, not her changing the way she tells me something.
No, I don't think so.
Don't change your FEELINGS. But make sure that your RESPONSE (or "reaction") is not disrespectful.
Trying to change your feelings is a recipe for resentment, if I understand Dr. Harley correctly. But you can change your habits. For example, your new habit of not stooping to disrespect even if she is disrespectful.
She needs to change her disrespect. As you indicated, she is disrespectful in her tone. But she is not motivated to do that right now. My only two suggestions are: see how motivated she is after she is in love, and/or write Dr. Harley again and put this as a question to him on the air.
By the way, poor choice of words about being "put in a place where I can't win." I don't want to win,
Ideally we're all looking for win-win scenarios. Her disrespect is a loss for you.
What I meant was that, the moment she asked the question I felt put in a place where conflict was inevitable and there is no answer or reaction that I could give to stop it.
When that happens, the best strategy is probably "shut up!!!"
At the very least, take the time to calm yourself before responding. Then try to respond to her complaint, not her disrespect.
When Dr. H is talking about changing behavior, I get that it is about actual behaviors, not information-seeking questions. Things like speeding in the car (rather than passengers trying to not be afraid), or banging the neighbor (rather than the BS trying not to let it bother them). Are you saying the solution is for her to not ask you questions? Of course she should stop being snotty (if she is being so), but her to stop the behavior of asking you for information is not a solution. Plus, she's not here.
If she is indeed baiting you, stop taking the bait. Just ask her: are you looking for a fight, or are you looking for information? My H's own negativity became glaringly obvious once I stopped engaging in spats with him. Nobody wants to be the only crazy person in the room.
My H also wanted to avoid conflict. Problem was, he created most of it in his own head, then spewed out false information based on what he thought would avoid conflict, then we'd be in conflict over his lying, which he blamed me for because I had the nerve to ask him a question. CRAZY.
It's really crazy-making. Stop avoiding conflict. Conflict is inevitable, it is how you deal with it that matters. You attacked your wife and accused her of criticizing you because she had the nerve to ask a question that had a no answer? Really, Hill?
I guess one reason that I might be hyper-sensitive to assuming everything is a criticism is because there is no balance. If she countered it with anything positive(there is virtually nothing) it might not bother me so much.
A husband typically feels that his wife's complaints are endless. They aren't, but he typically feels that way. If she is not careful about the way she presents her complaints (and your wife is not), then it can be very demotivating.
But her complaints are not endless. Eventually when they are addressed, it no longer feels like she is finding fault all the time.
It sounds to me like you are doing very well, actually. Just sitting in one of those demotivational points. Why? Because your wife was disrespectful, which is very demotivating.
The fact that meeting her ENs or just positive things in general don't have any confirmation it seems that everything is a screw up.
The problem is that there is a long delay in the feedback. Crossing the romantic love threshold (say, from 599 to 600) is SUDDEN and DRAMATIC, according to Dr. Harley. But crossing other lower points doesn't present any feedback, even if you are going from 130 to 590. You might take a gigantic step, and be almost at the goal, and yet see no feedback at all.
However, us onlookers can watch, and mention that you seem to be doing well. And you do. It sounds to me like you are working your plan, making the deposits she allows, tackling her complaints one by one, and learning to not respond to her disrespect with disrespect of your own. Which is fantastic!
Dr H talks about it being much easier to change a behavior that bothers someone that it is to change a reaction to a behavior. Is that different in my case? What you are saying is that I need to change my reaction to something she tells me, not her changing the way she tells me something.
No, I don't think so.
Don't change your FEELINGS. But make sure that your RESPONSE (or "reaction") is not disrespectful.
Trying to change your feelings is a recipe for resentment, if I understand Dr. Harley correctly. But you can change your habits. For example, your new habit of not stooping to disrespect even if she is disrespectful.
She needs to change her disrespect. As you indicated, she is disrespectful in her tone. But she is not motivated to do that right now. My only two suggestions are: see how motivated she is after she is in love, and/or write Dr. Harley again and put this as a question to him on the air.
By the way, poor choice of words about being "put in a place where I can't win." I don't want to win,
Ideally we're all looking for win-win scenarios. Her disrespect is a loss for you.
What I meant was that, the moment she asked the question I felt put in a place where conflict was inevitable and there is no answer or reaction that I could give to stop it.
When that happens, the best strategy is probably "shut up!!!"
At the very least, take the time to calm yourself before responding. Then try to respond to her complaint, not her disrespect.
Yes I am working my plan and doing well with it and I think the only time we get into trouble is from a comment she makes. There are no other sources of conflict in our lives. It boils down to how we both speak to each other. Sure we both want our needs met better, but withdrawals are the problem and they almost always appear when I react to something she says. To take my plan to the next level I think that changing it to my "No Bad Reaction Plan" might make it more specific in eliminating the problem. I don't come out and DJ my wife, or if I do it is once in a blue moon. The DJ's come out when my wife says something to me that makes me feel a certain way. So I'm going to change my profile and we'll make this Day 1 of the No Bad Reaction Zone.
If she is indeed baiting you, stop taking the bait. Just ask her: are you looking for a fight, or are you looking for information?
I cannot speak for Tgrace, but if I said that to Prisca, she would consider it to be a disrespectful judgment. She would feel that I am disrespectfully suggesting that she should not have asked the question, or that there is something wrong with her question. If she wasn't looking for a fight when she asked the question, she would sure feel like fighting after I responded like that!
I think a better strategy is to simply provide the information. "No, I didn't do that. Would you like me to do that tonight?" Or, "No, I didn't do that, and I'm really not comfortable doing it."
When Dr. H is talking about changing behavior, I get that it is about actual behaviors, not information-seeking questions. Things like speeding in the car (rather than passengers trying to not be afraid), or banging the neighbor (rather than the BS trying not to let it bother them). Are you saying the solution is for her to not ask you questions? Of course she should stop being snotty (if she is being so), but her to stop the behavior of asking you for information is not a solution. Plus, she's not here.
No not saying that at all. She asks me questions all the time that are not snotty and I don't react to them at all, I just answer the question.
If she is indeed baiting you, stop taking the bait. Just ask her: are you looking for a fight, or are you looking for information? My H's own negativity became glaringly obvious once I stopped engaging in spats with him. Nobody wants to be the only crazy person in the room.
I don't know about you or my wife but I would think the Dr H approach would be to ask me to return the stuff to the store, not to ask if I had done it without asking me to do it. I think many people on this forum could see how that could be considered a criticism.
My H also wanted to avoid conflict. Problem was, he created most of it in his own head, then spewed out false information based on what he thought would avoid conflict, then we'd be in conflict over his lying, which he blamed me for because I had the nerve to ask him a question. CRAZY.
It's really crazy-making. Stop avoiding conflict. Conflict is inevitable, it is how you deal with it that matters. You attacked your wife and accused her of criticizing you because she had the nerve to ask a question that had a no answer? Really, Hill?
I'll get this mean what I say and say what I mean down better one day. In the mean time what I meant here is that I wanted to avoid love bank withdrawals. In this particular case I said, "I really wish that when you come home you could kiss me on the cheek or ask me how my day was rather than ask me if I returned something that you didn't ask me to return." She didn't like that I suppose because she rolled the eyes and made a face and told me I take everything the wrong way.
Then I took the bait and sent one back the other way.
If she is indeed baiting you, stop taking the bait. Just ask her: are you looking for a fight, or are you looking for information?
I cannot speak for Tgrace, but if I said that to Prisca, she would consider it to be a disrespectful judgment. She would feel that I am disrespectfully suggesting that she should not have asked the question, or that there is something wrong with her question. If she wasn't looking for a fight when she asked the question, she would sure feel like fighting after I responded like that!
I think a better strategy is to simply provide the information. "No, I didn't do that. Would you like me to do that tonight?" Or, "No, I didn't do that, and I'm really not comfortable doing it."
Yes I would never ask my wife if she was looking for a fight. By responding "No, I didn't do that, and I'm really not comfortable doing it" I believe I'd be dishonest or telling half truths. I have no problem returning the stuff, I had a problem with my wife asking me if I had returned something that she did not ask me to return. The truth is I should have said, "No I didn't, did you ask me to? My bad if you did, if not I can tonight ok?" In retrospect that is the best answer for me personally. If I made up some reason why I didn't return it to diffuse the situation then that would violate my wife's most important EN which is H&O.
I didn't read markos as suggesting you give a dishonest answer, hill. I read him to say
1. If you are willing to return the item, say so: "Would you like me to do that tonight?" - or something similar, suggesting a time when you could return it.
2. If you are not willing to return the item, also say so: "I'm really not comfortable doing it" was just a suggested form of words that says "I'm not going to do something I don't want to do" but isn't harsh and won't sound like "take a hike". It is nothing to do with dishonesty.
I'll get this mean what I say and say what I mean down better one day. In the mean time what I meant here is that I wanted to avoid love bank withdrawals. In this particular case I said, "I really wish that when you come home you could kiss me on the cheek or ask me how my day was rather than ask me if I returned something that you didn't ask me to return." She didn't like that I suppose because she rolled the eyes and made a face and told me I take everything the wrong way.
I think she probably felt you were disrespectfully changing the subject. Yes, it's true that you would like her to start her contact with you on a more affectionate basis, rather than starting out with a complaint, but the fact is she asked about the particular task that was on her mind and didn't get an answer: you deflected, which is disrespectful.
I didn't read markos as suggesting you give a dishonest answer, hill. I read him to say
1. If you are willing to return the item, say so: "Would you like me to do that tonight?" - or something similar, suggesting a time when you could return it.
2. If you are not willing to return the item, also say so: "I'm really not comfortable doing it" was just a suggested form of words that says "I'm not going to do something I don't want to do" but isn't harsh and won't sound like "take a hike". It is nothing to do with dishonesty.
Dishonest to me is saying that I have a problem returning something when I do not have a problem returning something, particularly if I said "I'm not comfortable with that." My wife knows me and she knows I'm perfectly comfortable with return something to the store, why wouldn't I be? I did offer to return it by the way.
I'll get this mean what I say and say what I mean down better one day. In the mean time what I meant here is that I wanted to avoid love bank withdrawals. In this particular case I said, "I really wish that when you come home you could kiss me on the cheek or ask me how my day was rather than ask me if I returned something that you didn't ask me to return." She didn't like that I suppose because she rolled the eyes and made a face and told me I take everything the wrong way.
I think she probably felt you were disrespectfully changing the subject. Yes, it's true that you would like her to start her contact with you on a more affectionate basis, rather than starting out with a complaint, but the fact is she asked about the particular task that was on her mind and didn't get an answer: you deflected, which is disrespectful.
Agreed.
Dishonest to me is saying that I have a problem returning something when I do not have a problem returning something, particularly if I said "I'm not comfortable with that." My wife knows me and she knows I'm perfectly comfortable with return something to the store, why wouldn't I be? I did offer to return it by the way.
Well, then you wouldn't need to say "I'm not going to" nicely, so the suggestion was redundant. That was a suggestion if you
had wanted to say "I'm not going to". Don't you see that?
I didn't read markos as suggesting you give a dishonest answer, hill. I read him to say
1. If you are willing to return the item, say so: "Would you like me to do that tonight?" - or something similar, suggesting a time when you could return it.
2. If you are not willing to return the item, also say so: "I'm really not comfortable doing it" was just a suggested form of words that says "I'm not going to do something I don't want to do" but isn't harsh and won't sound like "take a hike". It is nothing to do with dishonesty.
Dishonest to me is saying that I have a problem returning something when I do not have a problem returning something, particularly if I said "I'm not comfortable with that."
I only meant for you to say that if it was true that you don't want to do what she's asking about. The preferred response was the alternative I gave first: "No, I didn't. Would you like me to do that tonight?"
My wife knows me and she knows I'm perfectly comfortable with return something to the store, why wouldn't I be?
I'm just trying to address more than this one specific scenario, since you will be in this situation many times.
I didn't read markos as suggesting you give a dishonest answer, hill. I read him to say
1. If you are willing to return the item, say so: "Would you like me to do that tonight?" - or something similar, suggesting a time when you could return it.
2. If you are not willing to return the item, also say so: "I'm really not comfortable doing it" was just a suggested form of words that says "I'm not going to do something I don't want to do" but isn't harsh and won't sound like "take a hike". It is nothing to do with dishonesty.
Dishonest to me is saying that I have a problem returning something when I do not have a problem returning something, particularly if I said "I'm not comfortable with that."
I only meant for you to say that if it was true that you don't want to do what she's asking about. The preferred response was the alternative I gave first: "No, I didn't. Would you like me to do that tonight?"
My wife knows me and she knows I'm perfectly comfortable with return something to the store, why wouldn't I be?
I'm just trying to address more than this one specific scenario, since you will be in this situation many times.
No I get it. So my wife and I are years ahead of where we used to be where threats of divorce were a monthly occurrence. We get along pretty well for the most part which is why I put that my wife is "in like" with me. She says "I love you daily" so taking her at her word I'd say that she is in love with me. The reason I concluded "like" instead of love is because SF is still on "chore" status. She still drops her arms when I hug her. She still sometimes will push me away if I hug her too long. In addition our conversations are more about trivial things rather than anything deep.
She doesn't like to fight and neither do I. We love to go out to dinner and date night, but there is little or no affection during those times. She knows my most important EN's and asking her only gets an eye roll, almost as if it is a love buster. If I ask for a need to be met with complete sincerity and without demand or disrespect, it is met with antagonism. I feel like my wife is a good buddy that I hang out with, but we are not in a romantic relationship. I meet my wife needs financially and there were times in the past I did not. I meet her need of H&O where in the past I did not. I'm extremely affectionate, probably even more than she wants. Her questionnaire said SF is one of her top ENs but I would say by the current frequency levels it is not. I struggle with her need for conversation because it involves subjects that it is difficult for me to be excited about such as home improvement. I feel that she mostly wants to talk about stuff we can "buy" and to be honest I don't feel that we should spend more money on a house that we both decided is not a house we'll retire in.
We are awesome on recreation by running and exercising together. Despite all of these things I feel that our relationship is mostly shallow and that my wife wants to keep me at bay. Its a weird place to be but better than when we were fighting daily.
She says sex is a high need but she only has sex twice a year?
I may have asked before....is she willing to commit to Marriage Building coaching?
She says sex is a high need but she only has sex twice a year?
I may have asked before....is she willing to commit to Marriage Building coaching?
We have sex more than twice a year, did I say that we didn't?
When she wrote that down in our workbook she was trying out MB and I can only assume she felt pressured to list it high after knowing it was my #1? No she is opposed to the entire MB program, particularly the forum and website. She has memories of the forum getting it in my head that she was cheating which left us many headaches and heartaches. There was never one single thing that I could find about infidelity and she was an open book with phone, facebook, and anything else I wanted. I think she views you all here as mostly those that experienced infidelity and therefore a bad influence on those that have not.
Hill, I know you've answered HDW twice today on the question of MB coaching, but for me, the problem is that you do not give a straight answer. You keep muddling up the answer to the coaching question by talking about your wife's experiences on the forum.
Does your wife understand that telephone coaching with either Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers, or doing the online course weekly for a year, has nothing to do with the forum?
Does she understand that she would be coached directly by Dr Harley's trained coaches, under his supervision, and that this would have nothing whatsoever to do with us here at the forums? Have you checked that she understands this, and does she still refuse the coaching?
I should add:
I'm not suggesting that you talk to your wife about coaching again. She seems to have made her vehement dislike of MB clear to you, and if you ask her again about it, that might well be a lovebuster. You are trying to win her round and certainly should not annoy her on this.
I am asking you to clarify this matter here for us. I don't think you should mention it to your wife again.
Hill, I know you've answered HDW twice today on the question of MB coaching, but for me, the problem is that you do not give a straight answer. You keep muddling up the answer to the coaching question by talking about your wife's experiences on the forum.
Does your wife understand that telephone coaching with either Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers, or doing the online course weekly for a year, has nothing to do with the forum?
Does she understand that she would be coached directly by Dr Harley's trained coaches, under his supervision, and that this would have nothing whatsoever to do with us here at the forums? Have you checked that she understands this, and does she still refuse the coaching?
The specific answer is that I asked her to do coaching with Steve H and she adamantly refused. I have not checked in probably 6 months and to be honest would be scared to do so based on her previous comments about MB. She did say she would go to counseling but she has shut her mind off to anything with an MB attached to it. There was no attempt to muddle, sorry if you took it that way.
Thanks, Hill. I think that's an unequivocal answer, so we shouldn't need to ask it again for a while.
How does she feel about you continuing to post here? Does she know that you do?
How does she feel about you continuing to post here? Does she know that you do?
She asks occasionally and I tell her. I would say that no she is probably not aware that I've been on here daily for the last 10 days working on my specific problem of being disrespectful.
You could start marriage Coaching by yourself.
Several do that. And the marriage Coach gives you advice.
The idea would be that she would see such great changes in you (because her love bank is being filled) that she would be more receptive to MB.
But... She said shes open to counseling?
Well that may be an open door for you. Call around and see if you can find a Marriage Builder Counselor.
There is an article here on how to locate a marriage counselor:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html.
How does she feel about you continuing to post here? Does she know that you do?
She asks occasionally and I tell her. I would say that no she is probably not aware that I've been on here daily for the last 10 days working on my specific problem of being disrespectful.
So she's not entirely opposed to MB and the forums, then? That's promising! Keep working on it, Hill.
You could start marriage Coaching by yourself.
Several do that. And the marriage Coach gives you advice.
The idea would be that she would see such great changes in you (because her love bank is being filled) that she would be more receptive to MB.
But... She said shes open to counseling?
Well that may be an open door for you. Call around and see if you can find a Marriage Builder Counselor.
There is an article here on how to locate a marriage counselor:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html.I'll consider this!
There was some meeting of my most important EN last night. There are some things I noticed that I need advice on. My wife is a competitive runner and is in incredible shape but is still self conscious about her body in numerous ways. No need to mention them specifically, and I've never treated her negatively or said anything disparaging about her body. For the most part I complement her on it frequently. Obviously there are changes after three children and a c-section and I think this is a huge barrier to SF for both of us. I noticed that if my wife has a glass of wine that SF happens more frequently, so as this is a rare occurrence because we are both training so much there are some things that need to be done in order to make her feel safe with me and comfortable about her body. Now that I play it back in my head, her self-esteem about her body occupies her mind constantly, in fact several times per day and her confidence really is unimproved with my verbal admiration. We are both losing 10 lbs before our vacation which is 3 weeks from now and we have both hit all of our goals. I'm mostly doing it for her, but one of the goals is to see if it improves how she sees her body. We never had this issue to contend with during the first five years of marriage but it definitely has compounded each year to the point where I think it occupies her thoughts just thinking about SF as well as during. Any suggestions?
Get on youtube and search "vagina monologues because he liked to look at it."
Watch.
Listen.
Learn.
Get on youtube and search "vagina monologues because he liked to look at it."
Watch.
Listen.
Learn.
Um ok. I guess you're being serious?
Is it possible that my wife loves me very much(because she tells me so), but that sexual fulfillment is absent due to other reasons? Is it possible that a spouse can cross the threshold of love yet still not have any need/desire for SF? The reason I ask is because wife and I are doing amazing and have been for quite some time. Our UA time is solid, we rarely have a "tif" and even if we do we recover within 5 minutes. I think my main source of emptiness is because of SF. My wife promises and then declines constantly and each time she does it makes me feel unwanted. Its kind of like this creature that I have been getting along with so well at a moments notice can come up with any number of reasons why we can't have sex and if she does agree, she'll act like it is a huge pain in the butt. This is a MASSIVE blow to our relationship and my concern is that she feels we are in a romantic relationship, whereas I certainly do not. I've often said that from the outside looking in my wife feels everything is just fine, and that I'm the one that is unhappy. Maybe this is why? I won't apologize for wanting my most important emotional need met and I don't think I need to. My wife punishes me over this need and I honestly don't think she sees it as a need at all. I have my vasectomy scheduled for after vacation which in all honestly will be the last "hurdle" we need to cross. She never uses the fear of pregnancy any more like she used to when it comes to the reason of not wanting to meet this need. It is more of a, "Oh, today was rough not tonight" or "Too tired", etc. I don't think I can be part of the 20% of happily married couples without sexual fulfillment, but I also think that I'm working towards a goal of a perfect marriage that will likely not lead more SF. This is exhausting.
Have you considered doing the telephone counseling? I recall your wife is not enthusiastic about MB, but maybe Steve or Jennifer would be able to convey how important this is?
Sounds like you are doing all you can, and I would worry that you're not going to be able to keep that up long term without some love bank additions to your own account.
It is possible, but from what I've read, extremely unlikely.
Did she ever show an interest in sex?
Have you asked her (at a time when things are calm -- not in the heat of the moment!) why she declines and if there's anything you can change that would make her feel less like declining?
Don't put it on the objective, judgmental terms of trying to establish whether you are or are not in a romantic relationship.
The fact is she feels the relationship is good for her. (Although maybe it could be better.) Whereas you feel that the relationship is lacking for you, because of sex.
There's no need to hammer down who's right and wrong, that way. (i.e., no DJs)
You sound like frustration is mounting and you are setting up for something.
Is it possible that my wife loves me very much(because she tells me so), but that sexual fulfillment is absent due to other reasons? Is it possible that a spouse can cross the threshold of love yet still not have any need/desire for SF? The reason I ask is because wife and I are doing amazing and have been for quite some time. Our UA time is solid, we rarely have a "tif" and even if we do we recover within 5 minutes. I think my main source of emptiness is because of SF. My wife promises and then declines constantly and each time she does it makes me feel unwanted. Its kind of like this creature that I have been getting along with so well at a moments notice can come up with any number of reasons why we can't have sex and if she does agree, she'll act like it is a huge pain in the butt. This is a MASSIVE blow to our relationship and my concern is that she feels we are in a romantic relationship, whereas I certainly do not. I've often said that from the outside looking in my wife feels everything is just fine, and that I'm the one that is unhappy. Maybe this is why? I won't apologize for wanting my most important emotional need met and I don't think I need to. My wife punishes me over this need and I honestly don't think she sees it as a need at all. I have my vasectomy scheduled for after vacation which in all honestly will be the last "hurdle" we need to cross. She never uses the fear of pregnancy any more like she used to when it comes to the reason of not wanting to meet this need. It is more of a, "Oh, today was rough not tonight" or "Too tired", etc. I don't think I can be part of the 20% of happily married couples without sexual fulfillment, but I also think that I'm working towards a goal of a perfect marriage that will likely not lead more SF. This is exhausting.
Are you selfish in your sexual needs and dont provide enough forplay and attention to her? If she feels that this is all for you and she needs to perform all the acts on your then why would she want to have sex to her. It is a burden to her this way. But if you can put more attention to her and her feelings and pleasure and not all focus on what you need and what she needs to do to YOU then she might be more accommodating. Also do you keep yourself clean and well groomed? That can be a turnoff to a wife as well. also smell. Ask her what scents she likes and try them out. I know scents are very powerful especially to women and their attraction to men. Just some thoughts coming from a wife with a husband who has NO interest in sex at all and knows what would work for me.
It is possible, but from what I've read, extremely unlikely.
Did she ever show an interest in sex?
Have you asked her (at a time when things are calm -- not in the heat of the moment!) why she declines and if there's anything you can change that would make her feel less like declining?
I would say sex became chore like after child number one for sure. The fun part and the emotional connection was sucked right out of it to be replaced by "let's just get this done." This is not the woman I married and I remember her pursuing me many a night when I wasn't in the mood.
I've asked her a few times, but not so much as to push her away about it. When I ask her respectfully it used to be that she was afraid of getting pregnant, but that is no longer the reason. Now it is typically answered with, "Oh that is all you want."
Now that I think about it, I want a lot of things from her and she meets those needs pretty good and is getting better as am I. She mentioned low libido briefly in a few very short conversations and I believe I heard her say the doctor said she is low in testosterone which I know Dr H sometimes points out.
It is a double edged sword because I don't get that need met enough and when it is met I'm sometimes made to feel bad about wanting it met in the first place. Sometimes when we make plans for sex, she'll tell me to go upstairs and that she'll be up in 3 mins, but then she sometimes watches a show for another 20-30 mins before she comes upstairs. That makes me feel like complete crap.
Don't put it on the objective, judgmental terms of trying to establish whether you are or are not in a romantic relationship.
The fact is she feels the relationship is good for her. (Although maybe it could be better.) Whereas you feel that the relationship is lacking for you, because of sex.
There's no need to hammer down who's right and wrong, that way. (i.e., no DJs)
I'm not concerned about right or wrong but you hit the nail on the head which is that she thinks things are pretty good and honestly so do I in ALL areas except for that one.
You sound like frustration is mounting and you are setting up for something.
Nope, I've learned to be patient, but this is a place of refuge where I can get feedback through some very experienced people. I would argue I'm a better husband for coming here and will continue to do so. I just think that I can continue to do all the things I'm working so hard on, but I do not think they will lead to my EN of SF being met any more than it is right now. I think there will have to be other actions necessary outside of her Love Bank which could involve her coming back to MB or perhaps seeing the doctor but I could be wrong. I'm not making a move Markos.
Why has it taken so long for you to schedule a vas? Am I remembering wrong, or didn't you two come to that agreement 9-10 months ago?
Is it possible that my wife loves me very much(because she tells me so), but that sexual fulfillment is absent due to other reasons? Is it possible that a spouse can cross the threshold of love yet still not have any need/desire for SF? The reason I ask is because wife and I are doing amazing and have been for quite some time. Our UA time is solid, we rarely have a "tif" and even if we do we recover within 5 minutes. I think my main source of emptiness is because of SF. My wife promises and then declines constantly and each time she does it makes me feel unwanted. Its kind of like this creature that I have been getting along with so well at a moments notice can come up with any number of reasons why we can't have sex and if she does agree, she'll act like it is a huge pain in the butt. This is a MASSIVE blow to our relationship and my concern is that she feels we are in a romantic relationship, whereas I certainly do not. I've often said that from the outside looking in my wife feels everything is just fine, and that I'm the one that is unhappy. Maybe this is why? I won't apologize for wanting my most important emotional need met and I don't think I need to. My wife punishes me over this need and I honestly don't think she sees it as a need at all. I have my vasectomy scheduled for after vacation which in all honestly will be the last "hurdle" we need to cross. She never uses the fear of pregnancy any more like she used to when it comes to the reason of not wanting to meet this need. It is more of a, "Oh, today was rough not tonight" or "Too tired", etc. I don't think I can be part of the 20% of happily married couples without sexual fulfillment, but I also think that I'm working towards a goal of a perfect marriage that will likely not lead more SF. This is exhausting.
Are you selfish in your sexual needs and dont provide enough forplay and attention to her? If she feels that this is all for you and she needs to perform all the acts on your then why would she want to have sex to her. It is a burden to her this way. But if you can put more attention to her and her feelings and pleasure and not all focus on what you need and what she needs to do to YOU then she might be more accommodating. Also do you keep yourself clean and well groomed? That can be a turnoff to a wife as well. also smell. Ask her what scents she likes and try them out. I know scents are very powerful especially to women and their attraction to men. Just some thoughts coming from a wife with a husband who has NO interest in sex at all and knows what would work for me.
I would kill if there was anything else aloud other than getting right to it. In other words we used to do everything but little by little she has eliminated everything that has to do with her aside from the deed alone. I'm well groomed, always make a point to shower before, and am in excellent shape.
Why has it taken so long for you to schedule a vas? Am I remembering wrong, or didn't you two come to that agreement 9-10 months ago?
I actually was opposed to it but came around after another meeting with my doctor. This was a point of disagreement that never really resolved until I voluntarily went to a urologist and talked it through with him.
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.
But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.
will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.
Just a thought.
There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.
There are books out there that give you tips
There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.
There are books out there that give you tips
Yes, one of the reasons I like/pursue sex with my husband is b/c he's very open and verbally affectionate during/after. He says all kinds of wonderful things that make huge deposits into my love bank
Of course I haven't had children yet. I know that can effect a woman in many ways.
Also there are many things that could be holding your wife up in this department that does not directly relate to you. Of course in order to pursue changing those things she would have to realize how important this is to her marriage and try to work out whether its a medical issue, a mood issue (depression), or something she needs to work on bringing her sexuality back out.
You said you guys had worked on HNHN or MB together before? Does she realize or actually believe that this a huge EMOTIONAL need for you versus a physical one?
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.
But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.
will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.
Just a thought.
This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.
There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.
There are books out there that give you tips
Yes, one of the reasons I like/pursue sex with my husband is b/c he's very open and verbally affectionate during/after. He says all kinds of wonderful things that make huge deposits into my love bank
Of course I haven't had children yet. I know that can effect a woman in many ways.
Also there are many things that could be holding your wife up in this department that does not directly relate to you. Of course in order to pursue changing those things she would have to realize how important this is to her marriage and try to work out whether its a medical issue, a mood issue (depression), or something she needs to work on bringing her sexuality back out.
You said you guys had worked on HNHN or MB together before? Does she realize or actually believe that this a huge EMOTIONAL need for you versus a physical one?
Yes she was involved with the work book and we've had the discussion about it being my number one EN. She has not said it verbatim to me but through my experiences with her I don't think she sees SF as an emotional need the same as she sees affection, conversation, etc. She gets annoyed with me that I remind her that I'd like to have sex which makes me get tired of asking. Then when we do it is all about getting it done so that we both are satisfied as soon as possible. She does NOT like to cuddle afterwards and has made it very clear.
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.
But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.
will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.
Just a thought.
This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.
can you hire a cleaning lady to help take soem of the cleaning chores and stress off her? Or even hire a mommys helper-a high school or even younger person to help with the kids, light cleaning, etc to take the load off? Do you tell her that she needs to do all the cleaning and cooking and etc or does she just do it? It is overwhelming to be a sahm taking care of kids and house and cleaning and clothes and cooking, etc. she might just need a break more often or have you take off some of the load and doing more around the house too. Just more thoughts.
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.
But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.
will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.
Just a thought.
This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.
can you hire a cleaning lady to help take soem of the cleaning chores and stress off her? Or even hire a mommys helper-a high school or even younger person to help with the kids, light cleaning, etc to take the load off? Do you tell her that she needs to do all the cleaning and cooking and etc or does she just do it? It is overwhelming to be a sahm taking care of kids and house and cleaning and clothes and cooking, etc. she might just need a break more often or have you take off some of the load and doing more around the house too. Just more thoughts.
Hired a handyman two weeks ago to fix some things that were bothering her. We have a sitter but no helper. I'm pretty hands on and typically get kids up, make breakfast, do dishes, make dinner, do those dishes, and bathe kids. It is totally overwhelming and I am a hands on type of a husband/dad. I just came downstairs after helping her put the laundry away right now in fact.
Hill it sounds like the problem is it's still a power struggle thing. She sees it as something that's not a natural part of the day, so her hackles get raised. How can you approach this without getting her defenses up? Maybe like first thing in the morning, especially on a weekend, when there are no demands on you two yet and the kids are still sleeping? Do you have existing parts of your day you can add affection to? Like if you two have a kiss good morning when you wake up, maybe you could add snuggling, and then when you both are looking forward to that, make the next move. Have you read Dr. H's article of affection lately, does that sound like something that would help?
Hill it sounds like the problem is it's still a power struggle thing. She sees it as something that's not a natural part of the day, so her hackles get raised. How can you approach this without getting her defenses up? Maybe like first thing in the morning, especially on a weekend, when there are no demands on you two yet and the kids are still sleeping? Do you have existing parts of your day you can add affection to? Like if you two have a kiss good morning when you wake up, maybe you could add snuggling, and then when you both are looking forward to that, make the next move. Have you read Dr. H's article of affection lately, does that sound like something that would help?
Kids were all at the grandparents. I made her a fabulous healthy dinner. We ate and talked and it was great. We both went upstairs to do laundry and when were close to done I asked if we could have some fun before kids come home. She declined again and said her heart was not in it at that moment cause she was crabby. She promised for the following night and asked if that was ok. I said that I preferred tonight because it keeps getting put off and it is really important to me. She said, "I know you were great today but my heart is just not in it."
This is the most common end result. I guess the part that is hard for me is that she has the energy to do a lot of things, many of those with me. When it is always said and done SF gets the short end of the stick. As far as making a move goes, it is just never received well. There is no making a move in our marriage any more.
This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now. She went outside to plant a plant and I went out with her and hauled around her heavy bag of soil so she had it next to her. Needs are being met in this marriage, that is for certain, but the percentages are off, at least for me.
The only time SF occurs is right before bed and typically she is too tired, and to be honest sometimes so am I. I just don't know that if I went into overdrive and started doing all the laundry and every chore in the house that the outcome would be any different. She just doesn't want to have sex and if I stopped asking we just wouldn't, ever!
Here is what I know. I know that I'm not happy with a lack of SF. She knows that I'm very unhappy about a lack of SF because we've had the conversation many times. Despite these two well known facts in our relationship, the need still goes unmet. So yes her hackles get raised that her husband wants sex because it interferes with all the other things she needs/wants to do.
This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now.
Actually, that's a perfect description of Dr. Harley's state of conflict. In conflict, you are willing to have your needs met, but not willing to meet the other person's.
Withdrawal is the state where you are not willing to even have your own needs met.
How long has it been since your last demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst? Wasn't it within the last week or so?
To me it still sounds like she is "in like" with you, not love. Does she doodle hearts? Call you unexpectedly at work just to talk? Stroke your arms, hug you, act affectionate? If she is not doing these things, she is not yet in love.
This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now.
Actually, that's a perfect description of Dr. Harley's state of conflict. In conflict, you are willing to have your needs met, but not willing to meet the other person's.
Withdrawal is the state where you are not willing to even have your own needs met.
How long has it been since your last demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst? Wasn't it within the last week or so?
To me it still sounds like she is "in like" with you, not love. Does she doodle hearts? Call you unexpectedly at work just to talk? Stroke your arms, hug you, act affectionate? If she is not doing these things, she is not yet in love.
It has been less than a week since my last DJ. She doesn't doodle and doesn't contact me unless she needs something or has a question or wants my opinion. She did initiate holding my hand in the car yesterday or the day before which felt amazing and she rarely does that so I must be getting somewhere. I think you are correct. She wants to see if this whole "show" is real before she'll invest energy in me and I don't blame her.
Morning Hill... how are you feeling today? How are you doing at NOT projecting a "needy" energy towards your wife?
I read some of the replys and such since i last posted to you and seen that the pendulum is not swinging in your favor YET.
SHe is still testing you and may even be (unknowingly) looking for you to resort back to your old "needy" ways to say something like "look... see .. you have NOT changed" DOnt get discouraged ... keep up the "roll with the punches and the no big deal kinda guy" that she needs you to be.
I quoted myself from page 148 of your thread.. so if you wanted to go back and look at some of the stuff i typed earlier from pages 138 (i think) to 152.
You ask if your wife is testing you? OF COURSE SHE IS. Especially if your attitude is changing from the norm ... your wife might want to see if its for real. She wants to FEEL your changes as permanent so she may push your buttons to see where the new ones are. If you RARELY falter in your emotional state (keeping it from being negative) she will eventually give up doing these tests because you will be stimulating in other ways!
Change takes time .. and probably even longer for your wife to accept those changes than for you to actually make the changes.
MNG
Another thing i had read too (cant remember where .. i think it was Dr.Harleys Love busters book) was that sometimes people have programmed them selves to actually be addicted to conflict... they unknowingly get addicted to the adrenaline that conflict brings.. like a default reaction that has been programmed over time.
*shrugs*
Morning Hill... how are you feeling today? How are you doing at NOT projecting a "needy" energy towards your wife?
I read some of the replys and such since i last posted to you and seen that the pendulum is not swinging in your favor YET.
SHe is still testing you and may even be (unknowingly) looking for you to resort back to your old "needy" ways to say something like "look... see .. you have NOT changed" DOnt get discouraged ... keep up the "roll with the punches and the no big deal kinda guy" that she needs you to be.
I quoted myself from page 148 of your thread.. so if you wanted to go back and look at some of the stuff i typed earlier from pages 138 (i think) to 152.
You ask if your wife is testing you? OF COURSE SHE IS. Especially if your attitude is changing from the norm ... your wife might want to see if its for real. She wants to FEEL your changes as permanent so she may push your buttons to see where the new ones are. If you RARELY falter in your emotional state (keeping it from being negative) she will eventually give up doing these tests because you will be stimulating in other ways!
Change takes time .. and probably even longer for your wife to accept those changes than for you to actually make the changes.
MNG
No neediness just confidence and yes the test is officially on. I'm sticking to the game plan.
Your wife will eventually stop testing you as she experiences your cool and calm reaction to everything she throws at you to get you to resort to what she is used to.
Keep up the good work!
It has been less than a week since my last DJ. She doesn't doodle and doesn't contact me unless she needs something or has a question or wants my opinion. She did initiate holding my hand in the car yesterday or the day before which felt amazing and she rarely does that so I must be getting somewhere. I think you are correct. She wants to see if this whole "show" is real before she'll invest energy in me and I don't blame her.
Yes, and that's true for her on a conscious level and on an unconscious level. Her Love Bank probably isn't fully open yet and is in the process of opening (i.e., she's coming out of withdrawal into conflict, possibly bouncing back and forth).
Once her feelings start telling her that this is real, then her conscious thinking will catch up.
For those of you that are more versed in MB than I am, is there a certain timeline that one allows before the ENs start getting met back before you start to wonder if it will happen or not?
For example, let's say Hill here meets her ENs, doesn't DJ, etc by the book according to Dr. Harley and 6 months from now, they still aren't intimate and she still just isn't into it...at what point do you start to wonder if your ENs will get met back...if the other person is a buyer?
I'm really curious. My situation was different as my wife liked sex and wanted to have sex but didn't want to have an affair so we had sex frequently. Now my wife closed herself off emotionally and so the sex wasn't as fulfilling as it was now where we're both intuned with each other mentally, physically, and emotionally.
Another thing i had read too (cant remember where .. i think it was Dr.Harleys Love busters book) was that sometimes people have programmed them selves to actually be addicted to conflict... they unknowingly get addicted to the adrenaline that conflict brings.. like a default reaction that has been programmed over time.
*shrugs*
I mentioned that a couple of times on this thread about my wife. There has been times when things were too good that it was almost like she went out of her way to create conflict. I could be reaching though.
It has been less than a week since my last DJ. She doesn't doodle and doesn't contact me unless she needs something or has a question or wants my opinion. She did initiate holding my hand in the car yesterday or the day before which felt amazing and she rarely does that so I must be getting somewhere. I think you are correct. She wants to see if this whole "show" is real before she'll invest energy in me and I don't blame her.
Yes, and that's true for her on a conscious level and on an unconscious level. Her Love Bank probably isn't fully open yet and is in the process of opening (i.e., she's coming out of withdrawal into conflict, possibly bouncing back and forth).
Once her feelings start telling her that this is real, then her conscious thinking will catch up.
I don't think that analysis is correct. I think withdrawal ended quite a while a go. I definitely think we have been in conflict for several months now where DJs have been ruining the deposits that we are making meeting needs. I think it is slow and steady, but unless the DJs are completely eliminated it will take forever which is why I came up with my roll call. Today is day 7 of the NO DJ/NO REACTION Zone.
For those of you that are more versed in MB than I am, is there a certain timeline that one allows before the ENs start getting met back before you start to wonder if it will happen or not?
For example, let's say Hill here meets her ENs, doesn't DJ, etc by the book according to Dr. Harley and 6 months from now, they still aren't intimate and she still just isn't into it...at what point do you start to wonder if your ENs will get met back...if the other person is a buyer?
I'm really curious. My situation was different as my wife liked sex and wanted to have sex but didn't want to have an affair so we had sex frequently. Now my wife closed herself off emotionally and so the sex wasn't as fulfilling as it was now where we're both intuned with each other mentally, physically, and emotionally.
I hear what you are saying and I've thought of that. Again she may not be in love with me but there are other things going on outside of our relationship like depression, a low libido, or low testosterone perhaps. She could also have issues with her body that she feels uncomfortable talking about with me. If she begins calling me out of the clear blue sky or doodling and still isn't intimate with me, then I'll suggest seeing the doctor. In the mean time I keep telling myself not to react when things don't go my way. She denied me last night and promised tonight, but I've heard that before so I don't get my hopes up. I'll assume nothing and if it happens I'll do my best to make it as enjoyable as she'll let me tonight.
I'm trying to maintain composure at this moment in time. After a "guaranteed" promise of SF tonight I got rejected again. I went upstairs early and she knew I was upset. I came back downstairs about 11ish at night because I couldn't sleep and noticed some sites that came up in Internet Explorer related to Ramadan and Sex and not touching anyone of the opposite sex during Ramadan? My wife went to a personal trainer tonight from 6-7 to train which is something she used to do way back when, but not for a long time. He is Muslim. She also asked me to help her with her phone the other day and I noticed a website on her phone related to recovering text messages. Lastly on another home computer I noticed search history related to how to delete facebook photo tags?
Mind you I have no proof of anything and a year ago I went down this same path of accusing my wife of cheating 4 times. I never found a thing but then again I never had anything like searches like this. It could be she was just curious and had a conversation with this guy about Ramadan and what it means.
What lessons have you learned since the last time?
The information and tools are available to you. You have a choice to make.
I'll not suggest anything for 2 reasons; the heat from you making 4 accusations with limited intel was put on this forum and those who helped you, and I'm quite sure that if your wife knows you are posting here, she will be reading to see what we tell you.
If she is involved, she will cover every single track she can possibly think of, throw every fit and accusation at you that she possibly can, and pretty much make your life chaos to keep you off the trail.
OR she could become sickeningly sweet, and suddenly begin to meet your needs... also to keep you off the trail.
All seen before. All part of the set of scripts.
Your choice.
the heat from you making 4 accusations with limited intel was put on this forum and those who helped you,
The heat was put on by both of you, in my opinion. I think you blamed the advice from the people on this forum for the effect that the accusations had on your wife.
I think it was unwise for you to post that new information here. What do you think she's going to say and do when she reads it?
Rule number one: calm down.
Remember, Marriage Builders advice is not to confront without proof. Continue to snoop and verify all you want, but don't start buying into ideas like "I can't take it any more," etc. That's just setting you up to destroy all of the wonderful work you have been doing. It's hard enough to make love bank deposits as it is right now. Withdrawing them all is going to be a real big problem.
The number one problem in your marriage has been your emotional reactions being all over the map. That's still the number one problem in your marriage. You would love for it to be something else, because then that's less work for you.
Rule number one: calm down.
Remember, Marriage Builders advice is not to confront without proof. Continue to snoop and verify all you want, but don't start buying into ideas like "I can't take it any more," etc. That's just setting you up to destroy all of the wonderful work you have been doing. It's hard enough to make love bank deposits as it is right now. Withdrawing them all is going to be a real big problem.
The number one problem in your marriage has been your emotional reactions being all over the map. That's still the number one problem in your marriage. You would love for it to be something else, because then that's less work for you.
I have a level head. I don't want a sexual rejection to turn into a nightmare. She is at the gym(again) and although I wish she had the same passion for me as working out, I won't complain about it. I work out too and sometimes we do together so I'd say that is a positive thing in our lives for now. Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.
I think more than anything I'm just disappointed. Is it a DJ to be disappointed in my wife's behavior? She could meet my most important emotional need yet she chooses not to and because of that I spend a significant amount of time on this forum to get through it. Seems like a simple fix from my side of the tracks, but I guess she doesn't see it the same way. Today is day 8 and I will continue to forge ahead by making certain I don't drain her lovebank.
I think more than anything I'm just disappointed. Is it a DJ to be disappointed in my wife's behavior?
No, your feelings are not a DJ. But it is easy to respond with one, or in some other way that is a love bank withdrawal.
And Dr. Harley did tell me that to tell my wife I am "bothered" when she does not do something is a demand and/or disrespectful judgment, because even though it is an accurate reflection of my feelings, it is guilting her into responding.
The hardest thing I ever did in life was change an attitude of "I'm extremely disappointed" to a non-demanding "I'd really like it if..."
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.
I don't buy the "just not up to it".
For men and sometimes for women
desire -> arousal --> orgasm
for women often
arousal -> desire -> orgasm
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Not sure why your wife isn't willing to do that? That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.
And congratulations on remaining in the no lovebuster zone for so long! Keep it up!
Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful.
That's something to focus on. She really does want to meet your emotional needs. She is just not yet feeling the emotional connection that will make it feel possible for her.
She has before, though, and she will again.
Another thing to focus on, and I have to remind myself of this a lot: there is not necessarily a need to hurry to resolve whatever problem has got me emotional. If I remind myself of that, remind myself that a lot of problems have gone on for awhile and we are working toward solutions but aren't likely to solve them all "right this instant" or "today," I am able to calm down, be more patient, and not act in a way that makes love bank withdrawals and makes it even LESS LIKELY that I will get my needs met.
Impatience has been one of my number one mistakes.
She could meet my most important emotional need yet she chooses not to and because of that I spend a significant amount of time on this forum to get through it. Seems like a simple fix from my side of the tracks, but I guess she doesn't see it the same way.
A man's perspective on SF is that this could be done, yet is not.
A woman's perspective on SF without romantic love is typically "I just can't do that."
My wife finds it extremely difficult to meet my emotional needs when she does not feel that connection.
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.
I don't buy the "just not up to it".
Wow, thank you for encouraging Hilltopper to judge his wife's perspective.
Maybe husbands should all start dismissing what our wives have to say!
That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.
That's always a good suggestion!
I think more than anything I'm just disappointed. Is it a DJ to be disappointed in my wife's behavior?
No, your feelings are not a DJ. But it is easy to respond with one, or in some other way that is a love bank withdrawal.
And Dr. Harley did tell me that to tell my wife I am "bothered" when she does not do something is a demand and/or disrespectful judgment, because even though it is an accurate reflection of my feelings, it is guilting her into responding.
The hardest thing I ever did in life was change an attitude of "I'm extremely disappointed" to a non-demanding "I'd really like it if..."
So "It bothers me that we don't have more sex" is a no-no, but, "I'd like to have sex once a week" is ok?
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.
I don't buy the "just not up to it".
For men and sometimes for women
desire -> arousal --> orgasm
for women often
arousal -> desire -> orgasm
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Not sure why your wife isn't willing to do that? That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.
And congratulations on remaining in the no lovebuster zone for so long! Keep it up!
I don't know why she isn't willing to do that either?
We have sex but it is more like once every two weeks which for me isn't nearly enough. When we do we both are "satisfied" when done physically, but I don't think either one of us are satisfied emotionally.
She could meet my most important emotional need yet she chooses not to and because of that I spend a significant amount of time on this forum to get through it. Seems like a simple fix from my side of the tracks, but I guess she doesn't see it the same way.
A man's perspective on SF is that this could be done, yet is not.
A woman's perspective on SF without romantic love is typically "I just can't do that."
My wife finds it extremely difficult to meet my emotional needs when she does not feel that connection.
So true, so true. And despite this, she has many times and I give her credit for it.
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.
I don't buy the "just not up to it".
Wow, thank you for encouraging Hilltopper to judge his wife's perspective.
Maybe husbands should all start dismissing what our wives have to say!
It's ok, that is EmilyAnn's perspective, not mine. I can't make her do anything and I won't try. I'm just not satisfied with that need and I would very much like to be!
That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.
That's always a good suggestion!
Tough call here. That is a POJA and although this would help me a lot, I think it might do damage towards the progress we are making.
Are you going to start snooping?
Are you going to start snooping?
Of course. No need to ask it again just like there is no need to ask if I watched the videos again. This forum is voluntary last time I checked and I think it best to spend my time here posting about meeting needs and eliminating DJs.
Maybe husbands should all start dismissing what our wives have to say!
Of course, I didn't mean hilltopper should dismiss his wife. I just think there is more going on here than perhaps she even realizes.
I think he would benefit from talking to Dr. Harley. Understand the POJA problem you have with that though.
what would you think of giving this a few days to cool off, letting your wife know you need to have a conversation (advance warning would be good I think)? During the conversation, ask her what her ideas are for meeting your top EN. Offer your idea of calling radio show for advice or getting telephone counseling, or doing the online course, whichever appeals to you most. Then negotiate for enthusiastic agreement on whatever ideas come up.
I think it has to be a time you are feeling emotionally collected, because with the info you found last night, it would be too easy to have a monster DJ. So like Markos says, patience is a virtue.
And if she blows off the idea of having the discussion.... well, that's for smarter heads than me.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Just wanted to point out that this is a very dangerous perspective because it leads to sexual aversions. The more she just does it - when she doesn't feel like it - the more she will avoid it and the more likely she will develop an aversion. If women don't enjoy sex they come to dread it. And the more they dread it the more they avoid it and begin to associate ALL interactions with that aversion.
The reason she doesn't want to have sex is because you are emotionally DETACHED, hilltopper. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. When a woman is in love, she has no problem making love to her husband.
Hilltopper, I agree with the others that you need to get coaching from Steve Harley. I would get a session with him and he will help you persuade her to get on the phone with him. I wouldn't even check with her first. Just get a session for yourself and let Steve guide oyu out of this tar pit.
I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.
At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.
I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.
At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.
I agree with this. The POJA does not apply when one spouse is making marriage wrecking decisions. Your marriage is going down the tubes and it is time to get some professional help. Let Steve help you in motivating her.
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Not sure why your wife isn'twilling to do that?
She is not willing to do that because she is not in love.
A woman needs 2 things in order to enjoy sex: the feeling of being in love, and the prospect of enjoyment.
Her lovebank isn't full yet. When it is, she will have an easier time fulfilling this need.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Just wanted to point out that this is a very dangerous perspective because it leads to sexual aversions. The more she just does it - when she doesn't feel like it - the more she will avoid it and the more likely she will develop an aversion. If women don't enjoy sex they come to dread it. And the more they dread it the more they avoid it and begin to associate ALL interactions with that aversion.
The reason she doesn't want to have sex is because you are emotionally DETACHED, hilltopper. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. When a woman is in love, she has no problem making love to her husband.
Hilltopper, I agree with the others that you need to get coaching from Steve Harley. I would get a session with him and he will help you persuade her to get on the phone with him. I wouldn't even check with her first. Just get a session for yourself and let Steve guide oyu out of this tar pit.
I don't know what else to do to make this woman fall in love with me so I mine as well.
I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.
At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.
I think we've come a long way, but it is clear that she does not love me and I don't know how to change that other than to continue doing what I've been doing. The moment I go MB on her all the emotions and horrible feelings she had from last year will come crashing down upon her. I will proceed with caution with this approach.
I just don't get any of this. I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point. I look at myself and feel like any woman in the world would be lucky to have me, yet here I am with the one woman who doesn't feel that way. Venting.....
I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point.
Wow, from what I hear, you have become a great husband and have been giving her what she needs in a man -- just not for long enough.
And of course there's the recent DJs, which are not what she needs in a man. You are capable of stopping those.
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).
Not sure why your wife isn'twilling to do that?
She is not willing to do that because she is not in love.
A woman needs 2 things in order to enjoy sex: the feeling of being in love, and the prospect of enjoyment.
Her lovebank isn't full yet. When it is, she will have an easier time fulfilling this need.
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here? It makes no sense. Either I'm a complete moron and can't grasp the MB concepts and essentially am wasting energy and effort, or my wife is immune to MB principles.
I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point.
Wow, from what I hear, you have become a great husband and have been giving her what she needs in a man -- just not for long enough.
And of course there's the recent DJs, which are not what she needs in a man. You are capable of stopping those.
Perhaps you are right, I just don't know. Perhaps the damage I did for so long just takes a long, long time to recover from. I have a lot of advice here. Call Steve Harley with or without my wife's agreement, or just keep doing what I'm doing. I don't know how long or how many times that I can be promised sex and then have it taken away. To her I suppose "it's just sex" but to me it's a crushing blow to my ego, my heart, and my mind each and every time. The opposite effect has occurred, I don't feel close to her and if she offered I would be the one "not up to it."
I hope you don't give up yet.
Remember Markos (?) analogy of throwing the stones in the river and how many it takes till you start seeing them show above the waterline?
I think you can be patient AND seek some extra help from MB resources, like calling Steve or the radio show.
I hope you don't give up yet.
Remember Markos (?) analogy of throwing the stones in the river and how many it takes till you start seeing them show above the waterline?
I think you can be patient AND seek some extra help from MB resources, like calling Steve or the radio show.
Yep love that analogy. I hope I'm near the water line.
Hill ... dont let your emotions get the best of you .. Your doing GREAT! Your still being tested ok .... ***EDIT***
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here?
Don't underestimate the negative power of a 'mild DJ'.
My H thought that a 'little lie' was nothing to even blink at. Oh, how wrong he was! It took a long, long time for me to even begin to believe anything he said, and that was only after repeat verification that it was, in fact, the truth. Every little 'mild lie' was a set back to zero.
You probably don't always have to be perfect forever, Hill, but it would pay for you to 'be perfect' in avoiding the most deadly LBs for as long as it takes for her to be in love again. Every 'mild DJ' is probably a set back to zero.
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here? It makes no sense. Either I'm a complete moron and can't grasp the MB concepts and essentially am wasting energy and effort, or my wife is immune to MB principles.
What is there not to love?
Your abuse.
DJs are abuse. There is nothing "mild" about them.
You cannot fill her lovebank as long as you are punching holes in it.
She cannot love you as long as you abuse her.
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here?
Don't underestimate the negative power of a 'mild DJ'.
My H thought that a 'little lie' was nothing to even blink at. Oh, how wrong he was! It took a long, long time for me to even begin to believe anything he said, and that was only after repeat verification that it was, in fact, the truth. Every little 'mild lie' was a set back to zero.
You probably don't always have to be perfect forever, Hill, but it would pay for you to 'be perfect' in avoiding the most deadly LBs for as long as it takes for her to be in love again. Every 'mild DJ' is probably a set back to zero.
I agree! Be aware of her top LB's! She should also be of yours ... but .. shes not into MB so .... *shrugs* you will be primarily doing that until the pebbles fill the creek so you can cross, kinda deal.
MNG
Hill ... dont let your emotions get the best of you .. Your doing GREAT! Your still being tested ok ***EDIT***
Yeah I am being tested. Perhaps subconsciously she wants to see if I throw a fit when I don't get my way with the sex thing. We had some good exchanges today over the phone. This is clearly a woman that is integrated with me and relies on me to help make decisions for the family, but also for her.
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here?
Don't underestimate the negative power of a 'mild DJ'.
My H thought that a 'little lie' was nothing to even blink at. Oh, how wrong he was! It took a long, long time for me to even begin to believe anything he said, and that was only after repeat verification that it was, in fact, the truth. Every little 'mild lie' was a set back to zero.
You probably don't always have to be perfect forever, Hill, but it would pay for you to 'be perfect' in avoiding the most deadly LBs for as long as it takes for her to be in love again. Every 'mild DJ' is probably a set back to zero.
Good perspective here. I won't underestimate the power of a DJ, I guess I just can't believe that she is literally out of love with me. That is not a good feeling. Also, the no sex thing is just not a big deal to her. She knew I was disappointed and I didn't hide it. I was respectful at all times.
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here? It makes no sense. Either I'm a complete moron and can't grasp the MB concepts and essentially am wasting energy and effort, or my wife is immune to MB principles.
What is there not to love?
Your abuse.
DJs are abuse. There is nothing "mild" about them.
You cannot fill her lovebank as long as you are punching holes in it.
She cannot love you as long as you abuse her.
How long did Markos go without an AO before you felt feelings of love for him return?
did ya read that link .. and the link in my first post in that thread? The other links in that thread are good too ..
Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here?
Don't underestimate the negative power of a 'mild DJ'.
My H thought that a 'little lie' was nothing to even blink at. Oh, how wrong he was! It took a long, long time for me to even begin to believe anything he said, and that was only after repeat verification that it was, in fact, the truth. Every little 'mild lie' was a set back to zero.
You probably don't always have to be perfect forever, Hill, but it would pay for you to 'be perfect' in avoiding the most deadly LBs for as long as it takes for her to be in love again. Every 'mild DJ' is probably a set back to zero.
Good perspective here. I won't underestimate the power of a DJ, I guess I just can't believe that she is literally out of love with me. That is not a good feeling. Also, the no sex thing is just not a big deal to her. She knew I was disappointed and I didn't hide it. I was respectful at all times.
Then be more bold, but respectful. For instance, my H didn't want to have conversations with me, which is one of my top needs. (We had already done the ENQ, he knew it was a top need) So I asked him, "Why don't you have conversations with me?" He told me it was because he talked to people all day long at work and didn't want to have conversations when he got home. So I asked if there was anything I could do about that. He said no. So I asked, "Okay then, what are you willing to do about it?"
If he'd said, "Nothing," that would be a clue. But he didn't. He got pissy instead about how demanding I was and he didn't have time for this BS, so I asked him how he thought I should go about getting my need for conversation met.
Now he won't shut up, lol.
Don't know how well that would work for SF...but you could ask her why she doesn't have sex with you x times a week. Don't ask her why she WON'T, just ask her why she doesn't. And listen. Ask what you can do about it. Do it.
If she doesn't respond, bring it back up. See how you're doing. Tweak it.
If she says there's nothing you can do, then do like I did, and ask her what she's willing to do about it. If she blows up, shrug and say, "Okay then. I think I understand your answer to be that you are not willing to have sex with me on a regular basis, is that right?" Whether she says yes or no or FU, just say, "Okay."
And give it a couple of days to sink in. Meanwhile, be pleasant and meet ENs. IME, people who are willing to acknowledge an unwillingness to meet ENs get really freaked out by calm spouses, especially if they have a pattern of flipping out and DJing. And they start to think that perhaps, just perhaps, THEY'RE the problem.
Not being 'the problem' anymore worked wonders in my marriage. Try it!
How long did Markos go without an AO before you felt feelings of love for him return?
3 months of absolutely no demands, DJs, or AOs.
And the minute he had a DJ/AO, we were back to square 1.
A lot of people do not like scheduling sex. They like spontaneity. If they know that sex is going to happen at this particular time, where is the mystery in that?
They like to be in the moment, If the emotional connection is there it will happen.
Hill last month you mentioned that you had an apointment for a V. How is the statis on that? What was the reaction after that?
Meanwhile, be pleasant and meet ENs. IME, people who are willing to acknowledge an unwillingness to meet ENs get really freaked out by calm spouses, especially if they have a pattern of flipping out and DJing. And they start to think that perhaps, just perhaps, THEY'RE the problem.
Not being 'the problem' anymore worked wonders in my marriage. Try it!
Yup ... this is a great MB termed example of rolling with the punches!
It took darn near 4 months of not letting myself get dragged into her "tests" and keeping myself emotionally stable while meeting her needs and not expecting mine met to get her to reprogram herself. My wife constantly (probably unknowingly) used her anger and my fear of her emotional reaction to get what she wanted in an argument.... It no longer phases me and she tested me many times to get me to "bite" and help her escalate a petty argument into a family brawl. I refused. Over and over again. She could be mad all she wanted, say horrible things etc. I would not engage with her in that manner ... until she realized i was not changing and resorting back to my knee jerking reactions that she usually expected of me so she could use it against me later (or right then).
Once i stopped .. she eventually stopped. Of course I changed myself into a more fun, loving and roll with the punches attitude approach for her and shes loving it .. I like the new me ... as does she! (i wish she would post so she could back me up! on it lol).
Here's her thread tho!
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545131&page=1MNG
A lot of people don't like scheduling root canals. But they do it, and why? Because they want to keep their teeth. So if a person wants to keep their marriage...scheduling in time for sex needs to happen IF THAT IS THE ONLY WAY IT WILL HAPPEN.
If a couple is getting 15+ hours of UA time a week, at least a couple of these hours should include sex. The intimate ENs aren't: recreational companionship, conversation, affection, and oh, if you feel like it, sex.
KWIM?
CWMI i found my wife did not respond well to a sexual event if it was scheduled. (Hills wife seems alot like mine was in regards to her attitude towards MB when she first heard of it)
Scheduling puts "pressure" on her (at least thats what my wife said). And IT would often lead to awkward moments where my wife would say something like "So i guess we should have sex then huh?" and she would do that act .. but be lifeless. Which is NOT fulfilling. (she considered it filling my SF need though so i stopped wanting SF for a while because of this which also helped for some reason lol) Proably took the pressure off her then she began to wonder why i was not approaching her anymore. I would touch her gently, tell her i love her then pull my touch away and walk to another room and let her come to me.
I had to give her time to reprogram herself and let her learn that I am safe .. and I can roll with the punches. This unfortunately took many months .. probably 4 or 5 of them.
In the mean time I listened to my wife who told me i needed to be more fun .. more easy going .. not so much of a push over where i just agreed with her all the time. She told me she wanted me to take charge more of some things and stand up to her on the occasion ... she told me she wanted to be able to not have sex on a sex scheduled night and I should be OK with that to not care so much about it and just let it happen if its going to happen ... and just cuddle instead. If i got pissy about it .. She would reply "see .. your not changed at all!" and we would go back to day one with the testing again Because she would prove I was still the same old emotional guy that apparently only cared to get his own needs met. Of course this usually panned out after several weeks of not getting My needs met i would be confronted with that same line "you just want to get your own needs met and dont care about anyone elses". Which is not true! I couldnt argue the point because then it would prove to her in her mind that it was true.
Tough road. But I have given Hill all the advice I have came across that helped me get out of my funk so i was better able to give grace to my wife so she could get out of her funk.
Keep at it hill ... I am rooting for ya!
MNG
Scheduling puts "pressure" on her (at least thats what my wife said). And IT would often lead to awkward moments where my wife would say something like "So i guess we should have sex then huh?" and she would do that act .. but be lifeless. Which is NOT fulfilling
That is because you are doing it wrong. Did you read Dr Harley's article, How to Get the Sex you Need? Sex should be an EVENT, and not just routine NEED that is met in a vacuum. It needs to met in conjunction with the other ENs, such as affection, recreational companionship and conversation during your UA time. For example, when you go out and spend 3 hours on a hot date, the night should be finished with SF.
When you do it like that, your wife does feel romantic because she will feel emotionally attached to you.
"Spontaneity" does not = ROMANTIC, just keep that in mind. Just because something is spontaneous does not mean it is romantic. Being romantic is what makes it romantic. If you SCHEDULE your sex in a way that makes sense, in the context of a romantic DATE, it does not feel robotic. You have to MAKE it romantic and set the stage, in other words.
People that don't schedule it, usually don't do a good job of meeting each others emotional needs because time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off.
People that don't schedule it, usually don't do a good job of meeting each others emotional needs because time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off.
Yup I did read that article. .. i get it (now but at the time when my needs were unmet for weeks on end) .. but my attitude usually sucked due to my unmet needs. Which sucked the mood right out of my wife. She would give me this look, because she could tell i was expecting sex, (even after a hot date) that was like " i guess its time for sex .. we had dinner .. lots of talking ... a nice walk .. etc .. an all round good night and my wife would blurt out that line almost everytime. "I guess its time huh?"
We did schedule it. Just in the moment she would usualy be put off by it becasue she knew i expected it that day. Dunno why .. I would try and ACT like i didnt want it (i really did inside) she would rush it .. and not want it to be enjoyable for herself. I could never understand that .. but eventually had to accept it. Of course its not like that anymore .. i just tease her a bit or bug her in a fun and sexual way and drop my "hint" and carry on like i didnt. Tease her a bit ... wrestle her ... lean in and kiss her during a TV commercial ... whisper things in her ears ... etc. IM getting much better at being FUN for her (her request) and she initaites more and if she choses not to want fulfillment for herself .. IM cool with that .. she lets me know now and feels alot more secure knowing when i answer i mean what I say.
Bascily anytime my wife KNEW i wanted sex ... she felt pressured to "put out" and that mind set just stuck with her for a long time. Thank good ness .. not anymore .. she can hardly keep her hands off me .. We have a new word too! .. "comfort" is our "word" for sexual touching! haha! TMI?? *shrugs*
Yup .. i get it .. but my attitude usually sucked. Which sucked the mood right out of my wife. She would give me this look (even after a hot date) that was like " i guess its time for sex .. we had dinner .. lots of talking ... a nice walk .. etc .. an all round good night and my wife would blurt out that line almost everytime. "I guess its time huh?"
The problem is that you didn't do a good job of meeting her needs of conversation and affection during your UA time because typically a woman feels so close and bonded to her husband after a night out together that she looks FORWARD to it. That is how it should work if you are hitting the mark. If your attitude "sucked" that would be the reason. Who wants to make love to a guy with a bad attitude? yuck!
Something didn't happen here that caused her to NOT look forward to it. That is what I would work on. I would guage her reaction to the prospect of sex as an indicator of your success at meeting her needs.
Who wants to make love to a guy with a bad attitude? yuck!
Yup .. I hear ya .. I wouldnt want to make love to a guy with a bad attitude either!
She would tell me it was not ME .. but her! (tired after getting in after 10pm from the night out or whatever. And she would apologize and explain to me that just thinking about doing it even though we had a great night (we would cuddle ... and kiss .. and hold hands .. and chat ... and walk and watch other people and drum up conversation easily) created anxiety in her (she felt she may have had some sort of an aversion for a while because of the fights from many years past over sex). And do all the romantic things but have sex at the end of the night. I would feel frusterated for the lack of sex cuz i would expect it (my mistake and a self talking DJ)
If your attitude "sucked" that would be the reason.
Oh I agree! Totally! I'M good now though! *flexes*
at least thats what my wife says .. haha!
[She would tell me it was not ME .. but her! (tired after getting in after 10pm from the night out or whatever. And she would apologize and explain to me that just thinking about doing it even though we had a great night
yep, that is how I used to feel when my H and I didn't have a good time together. When he had a bad attitude I couldnt wait to get away from him. But when we had a great time, I didn't "feel tired" or have a "headache."
I have found that the most effective way to get the sex you need in marriage is to go out on 4 - 4 hour dates and finish the night with SF. After 3 hours of great UA time, we both felt energized and in the mood.
Mel .. have I ever told you that your awesome!?
I get plenty now ..... i usually dont have to initiate or complain .. or anything anymore. Our UA time is fantastic.. my 14YO daughter is very helpful in that regard ... and very MB oriented. She says things to us like "hey ... you guys going to get in some of your UA time this evening? I will go to bed early for ya, or you guys can go out and i will look after my brother!"
AFter our 14YO got dragged through grandmas affair junk ... and we got rid of grandma and tuned our family into what TRUTH was and keeping our family unit sacred ... dd14 has changed TONS for the better.
DD14 even Mows the lawn and i didnt even have to ask! I came home from work on several occasions to find many chores done as does my wife find this aswell for alot of the inside things...
edit to add minor detail.
[She would tell me it was not ME .. but her! (tired after getting in after 10pm from the night out or whatever. And she would apologize and explain to me that just thinking about doing it even though we had a great night
yep, that is how I used to feel when my H and I didn't have a good time together. When he had a bad attitude I couldnt wait to get away from him. But when we had a great time, I didn't "feel tired" or have a "headache."
I have found that the most effective way to get the sex you need in marriage is to go out on 4 - 4 hour dates and finish the night with SF. After 3 hours of great UA time, we both felt energized and in the mood.
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
[
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
That is because you are still working against an AVERSION and your lovebank is in the RED. Once it gets in the black, that will change. What will bring you there is CONSISTENT scheduling over a period of time. [8 to 10 weeks]
Consistency and hitting the 20+ mark will get you there. She won't feel like it at first but she will after awhile.
[
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
That is because you are still working against an AVERSION and your lovebank is in the RED. Once it gets in the black, that will change. What will bring you there is CONSISTENT scheduling over a period of time. [8 to 10 weeks]
Consistency and hitting the 20+ mark will get you there. She won't feel like it at first but she will after awhile.
20+ is not happening. It took forever to get her to buy into "date night" which we do on Fridays. Between that 4 hours and about another 10 or so mixed throughout the week we are close to 15. I'll see if she is interested in Date Night + Workout Night to push it up a bit.
NOt sure if you read ML .. but to mention MB in Hills home is a LoveBuster to his wife.
Hes in a really tough spot.
I feel really bad for him and know exactly how he feels. Hence why I am all over this thread. I would love to see Hills marriage turned around as mine was in a similar state just over a year ago or so.
MNG
NOt sure if you read ML .. but to mention MB in Hills home is a LoveBuster to his wife.
Hes in a really tough spot.
I feel really bad for him and know exactly how he feels. Hence why I am all over this thread. I would love to see Hills marriage turned around as mine was in a similar state just over a year ago or so.
MNG
That makes two of us MNG!
[
20+ is not happening. It took forever to get her to buy into "date night" which we do on Fridays. Between that 4 hours and about another 10 or so mixed throughout the week we are close to 15. I'll see if she is interested in Date Night + Workout Night to push it up a bit.
What do you do for those "other 10?" Are you meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs during that time?
It takes 20+ hours of UA time to fall in love and 15 to MAINTAIN. Like you have heard 1000 times, this program does not work without that step.
It sounds to me like you don't get enough time together that is necessary to maintain the love in marriage. Most people absolutely REFUSE to meet UA time and then they wonder why the program doesn't work.
NOt sure if you read ML .. but to mention MB in Hills home is a LoveBuster to his wife.
Hes in a really tough spot.
I feel really bad for him and know exactly how he feels. Hence why I am all over this thread. I would love to see Hills marriage turned around as mine was in a similar state just over a year ago or so.
No, it's not a lovebuster at all. And please note I didn't tell him to mention Marriage Builders anyway. All he needs to do is counsel with Steve Harley and let STEVE tell him how to get her on the phone.
hilltopper, you need to stop messing around and step it up here. The things you have done have not worked. Let Steve Harley sell her on the concepts of Marriage Builders. That is your only hope as far as I can see.
MNG, if you want to help this guy, you need to help him focus on Marriage Builders. That is the ONLY way his marriage will make it.
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
First, I commend you for working so hard. It's not easy doing the right thing - especially when you don't see results right away.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
Right now you're trying to date your wife again...get her to fall in love with you. I doubt you expected to "get some" after your first date with her. It's only been 8 days since your last DJ...she's still trying to decide whether she can trust you, or let you in again emotionally. From her perspective, it's only been a week...and maybe she's just worried, waiting for the next DJ. It will take time and consistent caring behavior to convince her that you are for real.
I know, I know...she's your wife! Husbands and wives are "supposed" to have sex, right? But she is asking herself: "Does he care for me? The way he promised on our wedding day? Or does he just want me to care for him?"
One more thing. You said, "We have a fabulous time on date night..." Perhaps you have a good time. You might want to ask her how SHE feels about your time together. Not only will she feel cared for by your asking, she will definitely feel cared for when you listen and respond by doing things that ensure that she has a fabulous time.
You are getting stronger every day, becoming more the person you are meant to be. Her unwillingness is actually your stepping stone to becoming more patient, more caring: more the husband she wants and needs.
[She would tell me it was not ME .. but her! (tired after getting in after 10pm from the night out or whatever. And she would apologize and explain to me that just thinking about doing it even though we had a great night
yep, that is how I used to feel when my H and I didn't have a good time together. When he had a bad attitude I couldnt wait to get away from him. But when we had a great time, I didn't "feel tired" or have a "headache."
I have found that the most effective way to get the sex you need in marriage is to go out on 4 - 4 hour dates and finish the night with SF. After 3 hours of great UA time, we both felt energized and in the mood.
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
[
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
That is because you are still working against an AVERSION and your lovebank is in the RED. Once it gets in the black, that will change. What will bring you there is CONSISTENT scheduling over a period of time. [8 to 10 weeks]
Consistency and hitting the 20+ mark will get you there. She won't feel like it at first but she will after awhile.
You've also been lovebusting. No amount of meeting her EN will work if you are still lovebusting. This will take TIME. Time for her to heal from your lovebusting, and time for you to fill her lovebank to the point that you can't keep her off of you.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.
Marriage is about mutual care.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.
Marriage is about mutual care.
Totally agree, when they are both in love. She's not in "mutual care" mode yet - she's in withdrawal - and if he is giving just to "get" then this may be shutting her down.
He needs to prime the pump.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.
Marriage is about mutual care.
Totally agree, when they are both in love. She's not in "mutual care" mode yet - she's in withdrawal - and if he is giving just to "get" then this may be shutting her down.
He needs to prime the pump.
Priming the pump does not mean having no expectations that your needs will eventually be met.
Your suggestion here is unconditional love.
He shouldn't be demanding that she meet his needs, definitely. But he doesn't need to give up the expectation that they will eventually be met. To give up that expectation would be demotivating, as well as setting them up for an unsustainable situation - unconditional love on his part.
You don't bring a person out of withdrawal or conflict by giving up all expectations. You do it by meeting your spouses needs on a consistent basis, without lovebusters, with the expectation that your needs will eventually be met.
So if a person wants to keep their marriage...scheduling in time for sex needs to happen IF THAT IS THE ONLY WAY IT WILL HAPPEN.
This is exactly what Jennifer told us to do. In our case the problem was not emotional connection but my W's energy levels, so Jennifer told us to schedule SF for W's times of highest energy, and for her to plan her energy usage accordingly.
We used to have the problem of her burning herself up doing gardening or house cleaning all day and having nothing left for me at night. Now as a SAHM with 3 small kids it's more difficult, but I have some flexibility in my job and can take a morning during the week when the kids are at camp/preschool, and another night on the weekend when she's had an "easy day" and has some energy left when the kids are in bed.
I would much prefer spontaneity, but we came to realize that if it wasn't scheduled and planned for it wasn't going to happen. I don't have to initiate and be rejected again, she doesn't have to feel like the 'bad guy' for rejecting me...both win.
Hill mentioned a day that his W had promised SF that night but went to the gym for what sounded like a draining workout. That triggered me to thinking about energy levels.
Hill! ... Buddy!
**edit**
No DJ's today? Hows your wife doing? Hows the kids doing?
MNG
[
20+ is not happening. It took forever to get her to buy into "date night" which we do on Fridays. Between that 4 hours and about another 10 or so mixed throughout the week we are close to 15. I'll see if she is interested in Date Night + Workout Night to push it up a bit.
What do you do for those "other 10?" Are you meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs during that time?
It takes 20+ hours of UA time to fall in love and 15 to MAINTAIN. Like you have heard 1000 times, this program does not work without that step.
It sounds to me like you don't get enough time together that is necessary to maintain the love in marriage. Most people absolutely REFUSE to meet UA time and then they wonder why the program doesn't work.
You are right and it won't work if we watch tv or do something that doesn't meet the 4 most important emotional needs. I got my wife to agree to go to gym for a couple of spin classes during the week. We can stretch those sessions out to 2 hours if we stretch and do some other workouts. At night time I need to change the habits of tv watching and replace it in part with something that engages my wife. This will be no easy task I assure you.
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
First, I commend you for working so hard. It's not easy doing the right thing - especially when you don't see results right away.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
Right now you're trying to date your wife again...get her to fall in love with you. I doubt you expected to "get some" after your first date with her. It's only been 8 days since your last DJ...she's still trying to decide whether she can trust you, or let you in again emotionally. From her perspective, it's only been a week...and maybe she's just worried, waiting for the next DJ. It will take time and consistent caring behavior to convince her that you are for real.
I know, I know...she's your wife! Husbands and wives are "supposed" to have sex, right? But she is asking herself: "Does he care for me? The way he promised on our wedding day? Or does he just want me to care for him?"
One more thing. You said, "We have a fabulous time on date night..." Perhaps you have a good time. You might want to ask her how SHE feels about your time together. Not only will she feel cared for by your asking, she will definitely feel cared for when you listen and respond by doing things that ensure that she has a fabulous time.
You are getting stronger every day, becoming more the person you are meant to be. Her unwillingness is actually your stepping stone to becoming more patient, more caring: more the husband she wants and needs.
I totally see what you are saying. I've complained to her about the no sex thing for a long time so even when I don't complain its kind of already "out there" so to speak. We do have a fabulous time, that is not speculation because she'll tell me so.
[She would tell me it was not ME .. but her! (tired after getting in after 10pm from the night out or whatever. And she would apologize and explain to me that just thinking about doing it even though we had a great night
yep, that is how I used to feel when my H and I didn't have a good time together. When he had a bad attitude I couldnt wait to get away from him. But when we had a great time, I didn't "feel tired" or have a "headache."
I have found that the most effective way to get the sex you need in marriage is to go out on 4 - 4 hour dates and finish the night with SF. After 3 hours of great UA time, we both felt energized and in the mood.
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
[
See that's the thing. We have a fabulous time on date night, holding hands, a few kisses. Each time I think I'm home free. I don't beg, I act as if it's no big deal to me, but it never turns out that way. I've never seen a girl go from flirtatious to "you get nothing" so easily as if it's no big deal.
That is because you are still working against an AVERSION and your lovebank is in the RED. Once it gets in the black, that will change. What will bring you there is CONSISTENT scheduling over a period of time. [8 to 10 weeks]
Consistency and hitting the 20+ mark will get you there. She won't feel like it at first but she will after awhile.
You've also been lovebusting. No amount of meeting her EN will work if you are still lovebusting. This will take TIME. Time for her to heal from your lovebusting, and time for you to fill her lovebank to the point that you can't keep her off of you.
I can say that there are signs. She looks at me different I'd say.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.
Marriage is about mutual care.
Totally agree, when they are both in love. She's not in "mutual care" mode yet - she's in withdrawal - and if he is giving just to "get" then this may be shutting her down.
He needs to prime the pump.
Priming the pump does not mean having no expectations that your needs will eventually be met.
Your suggestion here is unconditional love.
He shouldn't be demanding that she meet his needs, definitely. But he doesn't need to give up the expectation that they will eventually be met. To give up that expectation would be demotivating, as well as setting them up for an unsustainable situation - unconditional love on his part.
You don't bring a person out of withdrawal or conflict by giving up all expectations. You do it by meeting your spouses needs on a consistent basis, without lovebusters, with the expectation that your needs will eventually be met.
I used to think marriage was about unconditional love until I came here. There are reasons why I thought I should get what I wanted out of marriage without having to do anything deserve it. I think this was what I learned from my parents to a degree, or maybe something I made up myself to justify my behavior.
So if a person wants to keep their marriage...scheduling in time for sex needs to happen IF THAT IS THE ONLY WAY IT WILL HAPPEN.
This is exactly what Jennifer told us to do. In our case the problem was not emotional connection but my W's energy levels, so Jennifer told us to schedule SF for W's times of highest energy, and for her to plan her energy usage accordingly.
We used to have the problem of her burning herself up doing gardening or house cleaning all day and having nothing left for me at night. Now as a SAHM with 3 small kids it's more difficult, but I have some flexibility in my job and can take a morning during the week when the kids are at camp/preschool, and another night on the weekend when she's had an "easy day" and has some energy left when the kids are in bed.
I would much prefer spontaneity, but we came to realize that if it wasn't scheduled and planned for it wasn't going to happen. I don't have to initiate and be rejected again, she doesn't have to feel like the 'bad guy' for rejecting me...both win.
Hill mentioned a day that his W had promised SF that night but went to the gym for what sounded like a draining workout. That triggered me to thinking about energy levels.
This is a big thing here. My wife and I have both intentionally chosen to be endurance athletes. This takes a lot of time and can compromise a marriage if not done carefully. Difference with us is that I work for myself and time is NOT an issue. Either we work out together, or she does at 5am, or I do 2 in the afternoon. We are together for family time by 5pm and alone with each other about 8pm each night.
Energy however could be a big problem for her. I have a hard time getting her to be intimate at all, let alone any other time other than late at night. By late at night she is exhausted and sometimes I am as well. I have no problem planning sex and neither does my wife but I don't think we can plan at night any more.
Hill! ... Buddy!
Hows it going today? Hopefully a much better day for you! Hopefully you get or got a chance to go read the be a man thread. Especially page 2 .. its a hilarious read and a great eye opener.
No DJ's today? Hows your wife doing? Hows the kids doing?
MNG
None today or yesterday. Wife doing great as are kids. We decided on Mon and Thu nights at the gym together.
You are right and it won't work if we watch tv or do something that doesn't meet the 4 most important emotional needs. I got my wife to agree to go to gym for a couple of spin classes during the week. We can stretch those sessions out to 2 hours if we stretch and do some other workouts. At night time I need to change the habits of tv watching and replace it in part with something that engages my wife. This will be no easy task I assure you.
HT, you clearly need a different approach. You are doing a little fiddling around the edges when it will take ripping the weed up by the roots and making a major change. You and your wife are in the habit of neglecting your marriage and you will have no results until you make radical changes. Half measures have availed you nothing in the past and they will avail you nothing in the future.
What is will take is selling your wife on the notion of sitting down with you once a week and scheduling out 20+ hours of REAL UA time. I don't mean counting couch potato time or passing in the hallway on your way to work. But actually hiring babysitters 4 times a week, dressing up and going out.
That is what will make a difference. And you are not able to sell her on that, so my suggestion is that you employ Steve Harley to do this.
Stretching your sessions out to 2 hours ain't going to make any damn difference.
Hill! ... Buddy!
Hows it going today? Hopefully a much better day for you! Hopefully you get or got a chance to go read the be a man thread. Especially page 2 .. its a hilarious read and a great eye opener.
No DJ's today? Hows your wife doing? Hows the kids doing?
MNG
MNG, you know I like you, but this guy needs to focus on MArriage Builders. It is against TOS to refer other posters to non-MB resources because it a) it causes confusion and b) Dr Harley does not endorse other resources.
You and I both know you wouldn't be allowed to post that stuff on his thread so sending him to that thread is just a way to circumvent the TOS. That is disrespectful to the board owners.
I want to keep this poster focused on MArriage Builders as his marriage is in dire straits.
You are right and it won't work if we watch tv or do something that doesn't meet the 4 most important emotional needs. I got my wife to agree to go to gym for a couple of spin classes during the week. We can stretch those sessions out to 2 hours if we stretch and do some other workouts. At night time I need to change the habits of tv watching and replace it in part with something that engages my wife. This will be no easy task I assure you.
HT, you clearly need a different approach. You are doing a little fiddling around the edges when it will take ripping the weed up by the roots and making a major change. You and your wife are in the habit of neglecting your marriage and you will have no results until you make radical changes. Half measures have availed you nothing in the past and they will avail you nothing in the future.
What is will take is selling your wife on the notion of sitting down with you once a week and scheduling out 20+ hours of REAL UA time. I don't mean counting couch potato time or passing in the hallway on your way to work. But actually hiring babysitters 4 times a week, dressing up and going out.
That is what will make a difference. And you are not able to sell her on that, so my suggestion is that you employ Steve Harley to do this.
Stretching your sessions out to 2 hours ain't going to make any damn difference.
You're right this is a big waste of time. I walked through the door and my wife was out the door to the gym so fast I think I barely even saw her. I'm unhappy because I don't have a great marriage and I'm annoyed that I'm the only one here trying to do something about it, and I'm annoyed that I've been at this a year and a 1/2 and my wife still isn't into me. I really think you are underestimating the level of resentment from my wife if I contact Steve without her blessing however so I won't do that yet. What I am gonna do is handle the babysitting arrangements from here on out. There might be a slight irritation that I make babysitter arrangements without her knowing, but I'll make it like a surprise. Whatever irritation she might have will quickly be erased by being away from the children and spending time with me.
In fact I'd like to hire a Nanny to come each day for a total of 4 hours or so 5 days a week. This way I can get a full 8 hour work day in and not compromise our lives financially. Babysitters are great for watching kids but that is all they bring to the table, or at least the one's we hire. I want a nanny or sitter that will make the kids a sandwich if need be, do a bit of laundry, tidy up the downstairs, do some dishes, and be a special part of our family. I want my wife to not have to get up at 5am if she wants to work out, and she'll be in the morning when the kids get up so we can have breakfast and coffee together and as a family. I prefer that I come home and we take off together to run, cycle, work out, or even just go get coffee or dinner. I don't care what it costs, we'll cut other areas of our budget or I'll just work harder to bring in more business.
That sounds like a great idea! Would she be agreeable to that?
That sounds like a great idea! Would she be agreeable to that?
I mentioned it last night and she'll consider it. It didn't come without a snicker comment, "like marriage builders honey?" She offered gratuitous sex last night and I turned it down. I literally would prefer to have none quite frankly. She got defensive about it, baited me, and I reacted again. I can't do this anymore. I can't be the only one on this path no matter how much time we spend together. I explained how serious this subject is to me because honestly I don't think she believes it is.
The truth is my wife is my first choice to have a fabulous relationship with. Second choice is to divorce and pursue love elsewhere. Third choice is what we have now. On that note, I'm sick of hearing buddies who treat their wives like complete [censored] tell me about how much sex they are having. How is it that some wives take daily abuse and sleep with their husbands regularly anyways?
I just filled out a request to speak with Steve. Last night spilled over into this morning and we are both on edge. She rushed out the door to the gym again to start this crazy cycle all over again. It has to change.
On that note, I'm sick of hearing buddies who treat their wives like complete [censored] tell me about how much sex they are having. How is it that some wives take daily abuse and sleep with their husbands regularly anyways?
How about choosing friends with successful marriages, so you can hear about do-able things that work to create happy families.
Sorry to hear things have degenerated. How are you doing with POJA? You sound like someone who is doing a lot of things you really don't like to do, you sound like you're feeling very justified in feeling angry right now. Are there some things you are doing that you're not enthusiastic about, that you can stop doing today?
That sounds like a great idea! Would she be agreeable to that?
I mentioned it last night and she'll consider it. It didn't come without a snicker comment, "like marriage builders honey?" She offered gratuitous sex last night and I turned it down. I literally would prefer to have none quite frankly. She got defensive about it, baited me, and I reacted again. I can't do this anymore.
I can't be the only one on this path no matter how much time we spend together. I explained how serious this subject is to me because honestly I don't think she believes it is.
What path would that be, Hill? Sounds to me like you're on a pretty ugly path, yourself.
I'm glad you're going to talk to Steve. I like him a lot, and so did my husband.
I just filled out a request to speak with Steve. Last night spilled over into this morning and we are both on edge. She rushed out the door to the gym again to start this crazy cycle all over again. It has to change.
I think thats a good idea. Steve can hopefully guide you out of this morass. When a situation doesn't change in 2 years, it is time to try something new.
I just filled out a request to speak with Steve. Last night spilled over into this morning and we are both on edge. She rushed out the door to the gym again to start this crazy cycle all over again. It has to change.
I think thats a good idea. Steve can hopefully guide you out of this morass. When a situation doesn't change in 2 years, it is time to try something new.
Yep I suggested a complete overhaul of our schedule to my wife. We'll see how she responds. I contacted Steve either way, even if it is just working on my tendency to overreact. If she reacts poorly then I'll let Steve handle it. I can't imagine that spending 4 hours a day together without the kids wouldn't be life changing for us.
G ood idea on calling Steve. I know he's had a lot of success with reluctant spouses. Every wife is different and you can't compare your marriage to others.
My wife and I never had a lack of sex even at the worst of our relationship. It wasn't because my wife was in love with me but because she likes sex, didn't want to be unfaithful,and has never slept with more than one person at a time. Physically the sex was good but not near as fulfilling as it is now that we're in love.
My wife wasn't overly phased by DJs as most are. So we'd fight, say hurtful things, and after calming down, apologize, and for the most part it was over. So I didn't have to go weeks and months without a DJ for things to get better.
On the other hand, we had other really stressful situations that we had to deal with.
On that note, I'm sick of hearing buddies who treat their wives like complete [censored] tell me about how much sex they are having. How is it that some wives take daily abuse and sleep with their husbands regularly anyways?
How about choosing friends with successful marriages, so you can hear about do-able things that work to create happy families.
Sorry to hear things have degenerated. How are you doing with POJA? You sound like someone who is doing a lot of things you really don't like to do, you sound like you're feeling very justified in feeling angry right now. Are there some things you are doing that you're not enthusiastic about, that you can stop doing today?
Yes I am feeling justified in feeling angry right now. There is no POJA because my wife has cast aside the MB program. One of three things will likely happen:
1. My wife will like my plan to get a sitter 4 hours a day and we'll live happily ever after.
2. My wife will hate my plan or dilly dally and I'll have Steve call her and do his thing so we can live happily ever after.
3. My wife will fight me and Steve and our marriage will deteriorate to the point of separation, divorce, or infidelity.
I like #1 don't you?
G ood idea on calling Steve. I know he's had a lot of success with reluctant spouses. Every wife is different and you can't compare your marriage to others.
My wife and I never had a lack of sex even at the worst of our relationship. It wasn't because my wife was in love with me but because she likes sex, didn't want to be unfaithful,and has never slept with more than one person at a time. Physically the sex was good but not near as fulfilling as it is now that we're in love.
My wife wasn't overly phased by DJs as most are. So we'd fight, say hurtful things, and after calming down, apologize, and for the most part it was over. So I didn't have to go weeks and months without a DJ for things to get better.
On the other hand, we had other really stressful situations that we had to deal with.
What something has to change. I poked the snail and my wife is in withdrawal again. She clammed up and said she'd respond to my email by the end of the day. Historically this means she won't respond at all. I'm glad you understand how I feel. I feel this need for perfection and that I'm chasing some fantasy that'll never materialize. I can stop the DJ's all I want and intend to do so, but if we don't spend enough time together nothing will truly change.
I apologized to my wife for blowing up and told her that I'm so incredibly frustrated that something dramatic has to change. I laid out the sitter 4 hours per day idea and we have a candidate which is a previous sitter that is home for the summer. I'm sad because my wife saw the man she saw last year last night and this morning. I have a tremendous issue controlling my emotions so I'm gonna try and do some relaxation drills and chill out and use my brain before any further damage occurs.
It's tough, Hill. I felt the way you feel more at one point. I remember being at the point where I was packing my stuff to move out and that my wife and I were divorcing. Marriage builders saved our marriage. Luckily my wife was on board with anything that would give us a great marriage. Do keep in mind that it will take a lot of work in the beginning of you do get your wife on board. It ain't easy but it's worth it.
And you have every right to tell your wife you don't want her seeing that guy
This is a personal trainer that she used with a group of friends several years ago. She trained with him the other day and I think I read into it a bit much. It turned out that she went to hug him because she hadn't seen him in a long time at his gym and he refused the hug because apparently during Ramadan muslims can't touch a woman of the opposite sex? The internet history was her researching that law out of curiosity. There is nothing there and next time we'll both go to see him after we hire the sitter!
The trainer, Mel.
How did she end up back with this trainer?
Ok, then why did you say you were upset about this?
Also, I would try and find activities where you can meet each others emotional needs. You should be meeting the 4 intimate ENs. What kind of activities can you think of that you both enjoy?
Ok, then why did you say you were upset about this?
Also, I would try and find activities where you can meet each others emotional needs. You should be meeting the 4 intimate ENs. What kind of activities can you think of that you both enjoy?
Because my needs are being met as it is and I certainly don't want her to spend time with some other dude, personal trainer or anything else.
To answer your question about what do we like to do, there are a lot of things. Athletics will be the core of our time together. This could be taking spin classes together, doing speed work on the treadmill, hiking, cycling, or other weight lifting activities or core workouts. I let her know my vision of what we should do between the hours of 4-8pm each night with the sitter so I have to wait for her to respond. I said I wanted to get out the calendar and map it out each week. If the boy has karate, then the other two can stay with the sitter while we go together and hang out during the class. Same with gymnastics with the daughter. Sometimes the sitter we'll take the kids to the park and we'll have sex which means we'll both have energy rather than the end of the night when we are both exhausted. Other times we'll go get some coffee or go to dinner or a movie.
Morning Hill .. I see that you let your emotions get the best of you again. Its not an easy process.. beenderdundat and many times I let my emotions get the best of me.. heck it still happens once in a while. NO one is perfect.
I just wanted to let you know that because of your wifes reluctance towards MB, I fear your situation will get worse before it gets better. Not saying it WON'T get better.. but I hope for your sanity and your marriage that Steve can convince your wife MB is the way (because it is). But be prepared for some brazen words from your wife. Keep cool. Its a marathon .. not a sprint.
Good Luck.
MNG
Morning Hill .. I see that you let your emotions get the best of you again. Its not an easy process.. beenderdundat and many times I let my emotions get the best of me.. heck it still happens once in a while. NO one is perfect.
I just wanted to let you know that because of your wifes reluctance towards MB, I fear your situation will get worse before it gets better. Not saying it WON'T get better.. but I hope for your sanity and your marriage that Steve can convince your wife MB is the way (because it is). But be prepared for some brazen words from your wife. Keep cool. Its a marathon .. not a sprint.
Good Luck.
MNG
If we spend more time together, which is the plan, I just don't see that happening. I had a breakdown, blew it, and there will be repercussions that I'll have to live with. My wife doesn't object to spending time together and never has. We have to get a sitter 5 days a week though for it to happen in all honesty. If we don't make this important move I think I'll be miserable and she'll be status quo, and I'll be the one to screw up. All I know is that I'm NOT ok with a non-romantic relationship and I want more than anything for my wife to be in love with me and vice versa.
You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.
Marriage is about mutual care.
Totally agree, when they are both in love. She's not in "mutual care" mode yet - she's in withdrawal - and if he is giving just to "get" then this may be shutting her down.
He needs to prime the pump.
Priming the pump does not mean having no expectations that your needs will eventually be met.
Your suggestion here is unconditional love.
He shouldn't be demanding that she meet his needs, definitely. But he doesn't need to give up the expectation that they will eventually be met. To give up that expectation would be demotivating, as well as setting them up for an unsustainable situation - unconditional love on his part.
You don't bring a person out of withdrawal or conflict by giving up all expectations. You do it by meeting your spouses needs on a consistent basis, without lovebusters, with the expectation that your needs will eventually be met.
Again agreed, the operative word being "eventually."
Expecting the need for SF to be met eventually? yup.
Expecting SF Immediately (Week 1 no DJs)? nope.
Communicating the hope that she will begin to meet the need for SF? absolutely.
A quote from "When to Call if Quits" Part 1:
"Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too."
....that's all I was sayin'
I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.
Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.
Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.
However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.
Hill, maybe you would benefit from anger management. When you talk to Steve, ask him what he thinks about that.
Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.
Yup ... exactly. I fell short many times and ended up back at day one and in withdrawl many times .. over and over again. I would push MB and that would create HUGE fights (before we went to an MC that is) Eventually (because i was SO adamant about it) my wife finally caved in .. reluctantly of course after the MC failed) My wife was just tired of the fighting .. and said "ok .. fine .. lets try it your way .. but YOU do all the work. I am too mad at you to read or listen but I am tired of all this fighting something has to change)
I basicly berated her into MB.. becasue she originally wouldnt have ANYHTING to do with it because it was written by a man and she felt it was to get MY needs met and not hers. AFter she let me take the lead in MB ... many months went by and she started being receptive to it. I got alot of eye rolls .. and body language from her that suggested she was still not interested. But i kept up ... bought the books (more of them, i had HNHN) and as we read them (actually I did all the reading outloud while my wife listened reluctantly until we read lovebusters) something clicked ... something changed ... and she started being receptive .. and started feeling the changes after we read the book HNHN. SHe started listening to it in a manner that would get her to point out at ME what I was doing wrong. She wanted to use MB against me after that as a tool to get her way. I was fine with that (let it be her excuse) ... and things formulated from there.
I tried to encourage my wife to use MB against me (but acted offended sometimes as if she had the upper hand out of the deal) so she could hold me accountable in certain ways .. this proved to her that it was not all about JUST ME .. but that it was in fact for her too.
MNG
I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.
Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.
Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.
However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.
You hit the nail on the head I'd say. You summed up my wife's attitude which is that she shouldn't have to DO anything. I'm not judging, this is the critical element of many of the conversations we've had. I typically want to disrupt the way things are and make change, strive for something better, but my wife just wants me to not react so severely to things and let them roll off my back. Without a doubt she wants me to let her DJ me or do other LBs that I don't like and just suck it up. If I just suck it up and don't react and take the higher road then things are great for her which is what I've been doing for the last 6 months with an occasional "reaction". For me things are not ok because I still feel neglected daily with an occasional flash of fun together.
I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.
Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.
Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.
However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.
Geez this resonates like an orchestra! I had to read and re-read it again to make sure I got it. For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do. She viewed a non-mutually beneficial marriage of her parents her entire life whereas I viewed a marriage that is very mutually beneficial in my parents. She learned over time that she does not have a mutually beneficial relationship with her mother and in fact we both started recognizing non-mutually beneficial relationships with certain friends that we agreed not to continue.
Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.
Yup ... exactly. I fell short many times and ended up back at day one and in withdrawl many times .. over and over again. I would push MB and that would create HUGE fights (before we went to an MC that is) Eventually (because i was SO adamant about it) my wife finally caved in .. reluctantly of course after the MC failed) My wife was just tired of the fighting .. and said "ok .. fine .. lets try it your way .. but YOU do all the work. I am too mad at you to read or listen but I am tired of all this fighting something has to change)
I basicly berated her into MB.. becasue she originally wouldnt have ANYHTING to do with it because it was written by a man and she felt it was to get MY needs met and not hers. AFter she let me take the lead in MB ... many months went by and she started being receptive to it. I got alot of eye rolls .. and body language from her that suggested she was still not interested. But i kept up ... bought the books (more of them, i had HNHN) and as we read them (actually I did all the reading outloud while my wife listened reluctantly until we read lovebusters) something clicked ... something changed ... and she started being receptive .. and started feeling the changes after we read the book HNHN. SHe started listening to it in a manner that would get her to point out at ME what I was doing wrong. She wanted to use MB against me after that as a tool to get her way. I was fine with that (let it be her excuse) ... and things formulated from there.
I tried to encourage my wife to use MB against me (but acted offended sometimes as if she had the upper hand out of the deal) so she could hold me accountable in certain ways .. this proved to her that it was not all about JUST ME .. but that it was in fact for her too.
MNG
The reason(s) my wife has a bad taste about MB are the following:
1. She believes the forums convinced me that she was cheating(she wasn't) which sent me into a tail spin of paranoia and multiple accusations.
2. I preached.
Q:
my wife just wants me to not react so severely to things and let them roll off my back.
A: so stop reacting severely. You can respond without 'reacting severely' if you have any self-control at all.
That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.
(1)For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, (2)its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do.
1. She would be, if she experienced it.
2. My H had a very different view of marriage than I did. My mistake, I assumed that the relationship we had prior to marriage would continue. It was only later that I learned he believed that "men don't date their wives." Ha! He had a lot of beliefs that felt out-of-the-blue to me--like POJA was 'asking permission' which was childish/p-whipped. And that making money meant he didn't have to do anything else, like interact with us. So? Views can be changed through education and experience.
Hill, I do want to smack your noggin for turning away her offer of sex the other night. When you complain that a need is not being met, then are presented with ANY opportunity to have it filled, take it and make sure that your spouse is GLAD to have made the gesture. You FAILED. You know this, though, right? Please tell me that you know that you missed an opportunity to make your wife see the benefit of reaching out to you.
(1)For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, (2)its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do.
1. She would be, if she experienced it.
2. My H had a very different view of marriage than I did. My mistake, I assumed that the relationship we had prior to marriage would continue. It was only later that I learned he believed that "men don't date their wives." Ha! He had a lot of beliefs that felt out-of-the-blue to me--like POJA was 'asking permission' which was childish/p-whipped. And that making money meant he didn't have to do anything else, like interact with us. So? Views can be changed through education and experience.
Hill, I do want to smack your noggin for turning away her offer of sex the other night. When you complain that a need is not being met, then are presented with ANY opportunity to have it filled, take it and make sure that your spouse is GLAD to have made the gesture. You FAILED. You know this, though, right? Please tell me that you know that you missed an opportunity to make your wife see the benefit of reaching out to you.
Yep I blew it and I apologized.
That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.
It takes two to fight.
Remember that.
The single most effective method I used to remove fights due to escalations in my house was to stop engaging in them. Sure, my H ended up yelling all by himself several times, and eventually he quit because BELIEVE ME: nobody wants to be the only crazy nasty person in the room.
If she says something rude, try responding with, "Thanks!" or "Ouch!" instead of your method of educating her on what she did wrong. Or set a boundary. "I will not talk with you when you use that tone."
Yep I blew it and I apologized.
I have to ask: do you think this makes it all better?
HillTopper,
I wanted to congratulate you on the idea of getting a nanny/regular sitter for a specific number of hours per day. This is what we did and it was a tremendous help to us in getting consistent UA time.
One caution though: In your sex-deprived state, make absolutely certain you do not get a nanny that is young/good-looking or that you may be attracted to in some way.
Good Luck!
RC
That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.
It takes two to fight.
Remember that.
The single most effective method I used to remove fights due to escalations in my house was to stop engaging in them. Sure, my H ended up yelling all by himself several times, and eventually he quit because BELIEVE ME: nobody wants to be the only crazy nasty person in the room.
If she says something rude, try responding with, "Thanks!" or "Ouch!" instead of your method of educating her on what she did wrong. Or set a boundary. "I will not talk with you when you use that tone."
I stewed after being promised sex and turned down three straight nights in a row. It was a lot to take and wasn't disciplined enough to shut my mouth. I HATE fighting with my wife because it is always over the same thing which is me not being happy.
Yep I blew it and I apologized.
I have to ask: do you think this makes it all better?
Course not, but I'm not gonna skip an apology.
HillTopper,
I wanted to congratulate you on the idea of getting a nanny/regular sitter for a specific number of hours per day. This is what we did and it was a tremendous help to us in getting consistent UA time.
One caution though: In your sex-deprived state, make absolutely certain you do not get a nanny that is young/good-looking or that you may be attracted to in some way.
Good Luck!
RC
Thanks! We mapped it out and she agreed to 4-8 pm M-F. She did not agree to skipping morning workout which causes her to get up at 5am and said this would not make her so tired. There is no shortage of things to do for us during this time. I'll keep your other advice in mind.
Yep I blew it and I apologized.
I have to ask: do you think this makes it all better?
Course not, but I'm not gonna skip an apology.
Ironically, when I first got to Marriage Builders, I remember somebody posting to me and saying "Never underestimate the value of an apology."
Nowadays the posters offering advice understand a little bit better.
Yes I am feeling justified in feeling angry right now.
Is that part of the Marriage Builders plan?
Oooh, the Hiltopper 'stew face'! You stewed? Really, Hill?
Knock it off. Your emotions are what they are, but dang, man, your actions are within your control. As a former outrageous rager, I can tell you that bringing your actions/reactions under control will do wonders for your emotions. I don't think you're as bad as I was (I was pure awful. Ever filled your spouse's car with mulch? To the roof? No? Just me, then...), and if I can get a grip, so can you.
I don't remember if I suggested anger management. With your stewiness, I would change my suggestion to assertiveness training.
Or try MB. Here, you get a twofer. Anger control and assertiveness rolled up in one tidy marriage-building machine.
When I was fortunate to speak with Dr H he zeroed in on our issue immediately which is spending time together. He seemed to think that if we spent our UA time that everything else would fall in place. My wife is down, so am I, so that's what we are gonna do. Stewing, frustrations, and DJ's occur when I'm feeling neglected by my wife which is a result of not spending time together. So is sex. So is my wife not feeling connected.
During this time we'll get to duplicate what we do on Friday nights which is awesome. The fact that my wife agreed to do this is amazing. I thought she'd reject it, but I think deep down she knows that this is the only way out of this pattern.
I think that early in our marriage my wife was crying out to me to meet her needs and not neglect her, but neglect her is what I did, so she settled and made due by finding lots of girl friends and hobbies and went on with her life. So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me. It's just like running. You have to put in the mileage if you want to get better, there is NO other way to get there. Marriage is no different. We've been spending 3 hours a week training for a great marriage, yet we expect to show up on race day(which is every day) and run a fast time.
This is great news, Hill! I like your running analogy - makes sense. And I'm really glad your wife is on board with spending time together.
So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me.
This is great insight. And I know you know this: the time she spends with you needs to be 'safe' and 'pleasant' for her: no DJs or AOs at all, or it risks ruining the whole thing. It's kinda like a tall, cool glass of ice water....with a 'tiny bit of bird poop' in it....would you want to drink that? Me either.
You'll do great! Your attitude is fab, your plan is good. I am rooting for you guys!!
This is great news, Hill! I like your running analogy - makes sense. And I'm really glad your wife is on board with spending time together.
So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me.
This is great insight. And I know you know this: the time she spends with you needs to be 'safe' and 'pleasant'
for herboth of you: no DJs or AOs at all, or it risks ruining the whole thing. It's kinda like a tall, cool glass of ice water....with a 'tiny bit of bird poop' in it....would you want to drink that? Me either.
You'll do great! Your attitude is fab, your plan is good. I am rooting for you guys!!
Hill, have you read this one yet;
How to Make Your Wife Happy
This is great news, Hill! I like your running analogy - makes sense. And I'm really glad your wife is on board with spending time together.
So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me.
This is great insight. And I know you know this: the time she spends with you needs to be 'safe' and 'pleasant'
for herboth of you: no DJs or AOs at all, or it risks ruining the whole thing. It's kinda like a tall, cool glass of ice water....with a 'tiny bit of bird poop' in it....would you want to drink that? Me either.
You'll do great! Your attitude is fab, your plan is good. I am rooting for you guys!!
Hill, have you read this one yet;
How to Make Your Wife HappyJust finished. We both capitulate and don't like doing so. All it does is cause resentment for having done so and who needs that. I think the takeaway is to brainstorm. Each time something comes up where it is a win-lose situation I'm gonna attempt to come up with 2-3 other choices and see how she takes it. What might be particularly difficult is to recognize situations that are lose-win for her. I need to be sensitive to those too since I'm here reading this and she is not.
This is great news, Hill! I like your running analogy - makes sense. And I'm really glad your wife is on board with spending time together.
So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me.
This is great insight. And I know you know this: the time she spends with you needs to be 'safe' and 'pleasant'
for herboth of you: no DJs or AOs at all, or it risks ruining the whole thing. It's kinda like a tall, cool glass of ice water....with a 'tiny bit of bird poop' in it....would you want to drink that? Me either.
You'll do great! Your attitude is fab, your plan is good. I am rooting for you guys!!
Hill, have you read this one yet;
How to Make Your Wife HappyJust finished. We both capitulate and don't like doing so. All it does is cause resentment for having done so and who needs that. I think the takeaway is to brainstorm. Each time something comes up where it is a win-lose situation I'm gonna attempt to come up with 2-3 other choices and see how she takes it. What might be particularly difficult is to recognize situations that are lose-win for her. I need to be sensitive to those too since I'm here reading this and she is not.
You already have a mountain of resentment due to your unmet needs.
I was actually in a rather similar state to what you face, but rather than fight I withdrew. I found other things to do.
It cannot be win/lose, lose/win. If it is not win/win, YOU are going to gas out. When you gas out, the 'ol AO/DJ/SD Hill is going to rear his ugly head.
It is your responsibility to accept nothing less than win/win. And that means shelving anything that cannot be negotiated pleasantly until it can be negotiated pleasantly.
And, in the interim - focus on that UA time.
Part of that is intimate conversation, here is a refresher;
The Friends of Good Conversation
Remember how it used to be? You and your wife used to be fascinated with each other. You would support and encourage each other. Empathy and understanding were almost effortless. You had many common interests to talk about. Somehow, you need to resurrect the kindness, consideration, empathy and interest you once shared in your conversations with each other.
Once you can talk to each other like that again, you will be meeting one of each other's most important emotional needs: The need for conversation. And if you can learn to do it well, you will deposit so many love units that you will become irresistible to each other again.
There are ways to make your conversation great. I call these the Friends of Good Conversation. If you incorporate these friends into the conversation you have with your spouse, you will get out of your rut. The first Friend of Good Conversation is using conversation to investigate, inform and understand your spouse. You and your spouse have not begun to exhaust all there is to know about each other. But, for some reason, you have stopped investigating. Your conversation has become predictable and uninteresting as a result.
I suggest that you investigate the facts of each other's personal histories, present experiences and plans for the future. Also investigate each other's attitudes and emotional reactions to those facts. You are bound to each other, through marriage, in a partnership that requires you to navigate through life with skill and coordination. Without conversation you will have neither, and your marriage may crash.
This is great news, Hill! I like your running analogy - makes sense. And I'm really glad your wife is on board with spending time together.
[quote=Hilltopper1972]So now I come back and realize I have a bad marriage and want to flip the switch tomorrow, start having my wife be "into" me, and have sex all the time. I wouldn't want to do it either. She'll come around though when she spends consecutive and consistent hours with me.
This is great insight. And I know you know this: the time she spends with you needs to be 'safe' and 'pleasant'
for herboth of you: no DJs or AOs at all, or it risks ruining the whole thing. It's kinda like a tall, cool glass of ice water....with a 'tiny bit of bird poop' in it....would you want to drink that? Me either.
You'll do great! Your attitude is fab, your plan is good. I am rooting for you guys!!
Hill, have you read this one yet;
How to Make Your Wife HappyJust finished. We both capitulate and don't like doing so. All it does is cause resentment for having done so and who needs that. I think the takeaway is to brainstorm. Each time something comes up where it is a win-lose situation I'm gonna attempt to come up with 2-3 other choices and see how she takes it. What might be particularly difficult is to recognize situations that are lose-win for her. I need to be sensitive to those too since I'm here reading this and she is not.
You already have a mountain of resentment due to your unmet needs.
I was actually in a rather similar state to what you face, but rather than fight I withdrew. I found other things to do.
It cannot be win/lose, lose/win. If it is not win/win, YOU are going to gas out. When you gas out, the 'ol AO/DJ/SD Hill is going to rear his ugly head.
It is your responsibility to accept nothing less than win/win. And that means shelving anything that cannot be negotiated pleasantly until it can be negotiated pleasantly.
And, in the interim - focus on that UA time.
Part of that is intimate conversation, here is a refresher;
The Friends of Good Conversation
Remember how it used to be? You and your wife used to be fascinated with each other. You would support and encourage each other. Empathy and understanding were almost effortless. You had many common interests to talk about. Somehow, you need to resurrect the kindness, consideration, empathy and interest you once shared in your conversations with each other.
Once you can talk to each other like that again, you will be meeting one of each other's most important emotional needs: The need for conversation. And if you can learn to do it well, you will deposit so many love units that you will become irresistible to each other again.
There are ways to make your conversation great. I call these the Friends of Good Conversation. If you incorporate these friends into the conversation you have with your spouse, you will get out of your rut. The first Friend of Good Conversation is using conversation to investigate, inform and understand your spouse. You and your spouse have not begun to exhaust all there is to know about each other. But, for some reason, you have stopped investigating. Your conversation has become predictable and uninteresting as a result.
I suggest that you investigate the facts of each other's personal histories, present experiences and plans for the future. Also investigate each other's attitudes and emotional reactions to those facts. You are bound to each other, through marriage, in a partnership that requires you to navigate through life with skill and coordination. Without conversation you will have neither, and your marriage may crash.
[/quote]
I just tried it out actually. Wife wanted to workout for 90 mins tomorrow morning and then go to a plant show with her friend for 2 hours. I didn't like this because it would end up being a block of time of 5 hours where I'm watching kids while she is away. I told her this pleasantly and gave two alternatives which was to only go an hour to the event, or see if her parents would watch kids and we'd both go. She declined both alternatives and decided not to go and do it another time. She felt it too complicated to so she'd rather just skip it. I'm not sure the end result here because I don't know her true feelings on the subject. Did she capitulate? Maybe. Or maybe it really wasn't that important to her and she recognized that I might get a little burnt or stressed out if she was gone for half the day?
Excellent radio clip on a couple interacting and can't come to agreements and the H isn't getting enough SF. Dr. Harley recommends writing it out to each other.
Radio clip on disagreements and working on POJA through writing Radio Clip on a wife needing more space
afternoon Hill... was just wondering how you were doing?
Doing great actually. This week is the first week we hired the sitter so we spent 3-4 hours M-W so far. Couldn't be better, so now I'm up early trying to earn some dough to make certain that this is something we can do indefinitely.
Doing great actually. This week is the first week we hired the sitter so we spent 3-4 hours M-W so far. Couldn't be better, so now I'm up early trying to earn some dough to make certain that this is something we can do indefinitely.
Glad to hear it and hope it goes well for you today.
Doing great actually. This week is the first week we hired the sitter so we spent 3-4 hours M-W so far. Couldn't be better, so now I'm up early trying to earn some dough to make certain that this is something we can do indefinitely.
Keep us posted.
No love busters.
