Our main issue is independent behavior. Our problems began at the proposal 1990. But, we were pretty good up until our first child was born in 1997. Then it got really bad in 1998. We have a chicken and the egg problem. I know it boils down to UA time though. DH says I gave all of me to our kids. That there was nothing left over for him. But, he also agrees he left all the responsibilities of taking care of the kids to me. What was I to do? He withdraw into computer games in 1998. Shouldn't he have stayed with us? These are his kids too. Because I devoted my life to raising our kids practically alone, was it my independent behavior?

His view - I pushed him away when we had kids. He didn't have anything better to do, so he started gaming.

My view - He left me when we had kids. I think he should have done something more than work and game all the time.

Please stick to one thread. It's easier to keep track of your questions and history, and see what other advice/responses have been given to you, if you stay in one thread.

To answer your question:


Full article here: Caring for children means caring for each other

Ok, this will be my thread. So, yes? You think raising kids can be an independent behavior? I don't know. I think it could be; only because he left me to do it by myself. I asked, no begged, him to join the four of us. For years he ignored us. No, we did not get 20+ hours of UA.

How we held it together? He met my need for financial support. We met our need for conversation over the phone during his long commute, SF happened every 7 to 10 days (except after my c-sections). Affection and rec. companionship really took the hits. I was "touched out" and we didn't believe in strangers taking care of our kids, so we stayed home with them. We didn't get out much because he doesn't care to socialize so we didn't make friends with people who could babysit. No family in the area. It was a recipe for disaster.

We are still working on the plan for UA. We started this last Sunday 11/06. Our UA so far hasn't been out of the house. He has given up gaming. He sits at the counter while I cook. I join him on the couch for TV. We retire to the bedroom for convo, affection and SF around 930. I thought about meeting him for lunch, but he works two hours from home.

Another thing, we homeschool. That adds some different stress to our situation.

I'd steer away from the "who was right" analysis - that leads to resentment. The idea is to form new habits going forward. Yes, there needs to be some looking at the past to identify patterns and habits that you want to eliminate, but mostly you want to start from now and move forward.

Now: is your 14-year-old responsible enough to look after the siblings for a couple of hours? Do you have any friends or family in the area (now, I know you said you didn't before) who you would trust to care for your children for a few hours?

Have you both completed the recreational companionship questionnaire? That is fodder both for conversation and to pick an activity to go do.

Have you both completed the emotional needs questionnaire? Have you identified not just how the other spouse is currently doing at meeting that EN, but how important they are and how you want them met?

Have you both identified love busters to eliminate?

Your H has given up gaming and is working on UA time. That is a huge step out of withdrawl! Be encouraged!

The resentment has been here for years. I want to identify whether my parenting was a LB (independent behavior) because I have modeled it for my kids. If it's an LB, I need to try to undo what my kids learned from me.

Gotta run, more later..

A love buster is pretty much anything you do that destroys your spouse's love for you.

Now, with that probing question answered...stop talking about it. :)Go out and date your husband again, if the kids get offended that they are no longer the center of the universe, well, tough tooties for them. The oldest child is old enough to babysit the younger two.

It's a Disrespectful Judgment. It's a Love Buster!

The plan doesn't work if you don't eliminate love busters.

You can both have your own opinions about who was right or whatever, and keep 'em to yourself, okay? It's the past. Move on. Here's the plan to build a good marriage; use it.

Is your husband still doing this? If so, it's a problem that can be addressed using this program, in a respectful manner.


This is a disrespectful judgment. You are criticizing and judging your husband, and dwelling on mistakes of the past.

The word "should" is usually a key word for recognizing the presence of a disrespectful judgment.

The fact is you had an emotional need for family commitment for your husband. The way to handle that is through respectful requests, thoughtful persuasion, and negotiation. Not telling your husband he should do what you need. That's a controlling and abusive strategy.

Your best bet for undoing any problems with your kids is to prioritize fixing your marriage FIRST. Don't go off and try to solve this problem with your kids, or any other, alone ... you'll be much more effective doing it TOGETHER.

btw....

Having done things wrong and correcting course utilizing MB methods and fixing things to the way things always should have been MIGHT teach your kids more than if they were just right all along.

My parents have been married 50+ years and I've come to figure out that they did a lot of things right (mb wise) all these years. My parents didn't talk about it though and I just took it for granted like marriage was easy. I was clueless.

Your kids saw a bad marriage and are going to experience right along side you two the transformation to a good marriage. They are going to KNOW the difference and learn right along with you. I think they'll be better off for it...in the long run.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for all of the advice. We read and discussed all the info about ENs, LBs, Giver/Taker,and POJA. Haven't filled out the questionnaires yet. We've had many good conversations. Went out to dinner alone last night. Yes, our oldest does babysit. She hasn't in the late 6 months because she's involved in community theater. I did tell her she needed to cut back though and be at home more often (one play in the spring and one in the fall). She will have a full four months off before the next play starts. So, we can get that much needed UA.

Something H shared with me last night. He said, he can do MB. He's good at following instructions. He needed it written down. All these years, all these conversations, that's why I got that "glazed over look". That's why it didn't stick or click.

Our "safe" word is safe. It's kinda funny. He's catching his LB's before I do. We'll be talking, he says "safe". I'll say, "Did I LB you?" He says,"No, I just LB'ed you!"

Yes, he has given up gaming 4 times before. But, this time is different. I can feel it!

lol @ your safe word. I guess it's better than "Out!"

Or "Foul!"

Honestly, when your spouse LBs the kids, does it affect you? He is doing a much better job with me, but his day is littered with AOs and DJs towards the kids. Should it affect my lovebank?

There is no should or shouldn't about it. When anybody abuses you kids it drains your love bank.

It must stop.

When all else failed, I used to take my DD to the grocery store to give them both a time out from w AO.

DJ are actually tougher to manage. We all know an AO when we see or here one, but many parents see their DJ toward the child as part of good discipline and guidance. You have to voice your concern away from the child, and by then the damage is done.

Could you and h have a safe word to use as a signal to confer before proceeding with whatever is happening with the child?

Now my personal counselor advises me to stop trying to be the peacemaker. But I don't think I could have accepted that advice when DD was younger ( now 29 ).

What's your alternative? Permit abuse of your children? I have deep regrets that I did not do more to stop it in my family.

I voice my concern with DJs right there and then.

We were driving home from church one morning when my H declared that our ds9 "Never tries to do anything!" I said, "That is not true."

I thought it was just vicious and mean. I stood up for my child, right there in front of the whole family. I've told my H before, in private, that I felt that ds9 and I were the targets of H's meanness and it needed to stop. I'm not scared to ask, "Is that really how you want to talk to me?" or "Is that the kind of stuff you want the kids to remember about you?" or to say that something is simply not sustainable as truth.

If something feels like it affecting your lovebank, then it is, whether anyone else thinks it should or not.

"Steeeeeeeeeeeeeerike!"

As mentioned in another thread, any AO can effect your LB$ balance.

My W will AO at the walls if she can't find her keys, and THAT will set my guts to do summersaults. Any AO causes me anxiety. When it is toward your children, its just as bad as if it was toward you. Same if it were toward your dog. Or the kid bagging groceries.

No target is defined. An AO is an LB, period.

Thanks for the validation. Today, he was making faces and negative comments about the kids to me. I just looked at him and said "safe". He turned and walked away.

So what is this SAFE word and how do you use it?

DH and I say the word "safe" whenever we commit an LB. He

We need a little guidance. Do we use the POJA to figure out how to meet needs or is it just for making decisions and ending bad habits?

Not lovebusting each other has made a huge difference, but we aren't fully meeting each other's needs. He would like to have SF more than once a week. But, he's not meeting my needs. He asked, "What more can I do? I've already given up gaming and I'm being nicer." We had the idea...Should we just say "Yes" to everything the other one needs? But, wouldn't that violate the POJA? Wouldn't resentment set in?

Really, the only MB principle we've been able to implement is no lovebusting. How do we move further?

This should be an easy one to resolve. Tell him. Tell him what he can do to meet your needs so that you would be more interested in sex. Be very concrete. Vague instructions like "be more romantic" are useless. Guys do not mind read or understand subtle clues. If you need him to wash the dishes when the sink is full of dirty plates, or do a load of laundry when the hamper is full, without being asked, tell him. If you need him to bring home flowers on Wednesday for you to be in the mood that night, tell him. Do not worry whether this will frustrate him. As long as your list is less than 100 items, and as long as you find yourself more interested when he accomplishes the assigned tasks, this can work fairly easily.

This is covered on the ENQ. You each write down your ENs and how you would like them filled. Example: rank affection as a 5 or 6 on the scale, then that you would like affection 2x a day. Not being shown affection makes you feel somewhat unhappy, and you are a -2 in your evaluation of your spouses affection, then explain how your need could be better satisfied (could be touching you when he passes by, sending loving texts during the day--positive actions, not things he should not do, those belong on the LBQ).

If you need something that he is unable to fulfill, then he should be presenting you with alternatives that he is willing to do. Like if he cannot train himself to touch you when he passes by, he could instead offer sceduled cuddle time if that would do it for you. But that should come later. First fill out the ENQ and make the effort to do what the other wants. It might be just a matter of learning new habits, no resentment involved. Without LBs, it should be easy to negotiate after a real effort has been made.

What happens if we can't get the 20 hours UA? H leaves the house at 5 am and returns at 7 pm. Weekends are open though. We aren't making progress. I don't feel in love yet. He isn't meeting my needs. Cry....ugh

You have chosen aspects of your life that are causing to to be difficult to have the UA.

You homeschool. Does that impact your ability to work on your marriage? If yes, what would happen if you were to be divorced? Would you have to do public school?

Your DH works 2 hours from home. Is that the only job he can have? Can he work on interviewing for jobs closer? Can you move closer to his work?

For every excuse you have why you can't change anything, ask yourself what would happen if you were divorced? If he had parenting time every Wednesday evening, would he make it home for it? Can he do that now?

If you can't get the 20 hours of UA, what happens is that you never make progress, and you don't feel in love, and there is no time for meeting each other's needs.



That's discouraging. And discouragement can cause you to give up, throw in the towel.

However, what you need to do is CHANGE your life to solve this problem! Ignoring it in order to avoid the feeling of discouragement will just make things worse. You have got to face it head on and come up with a solution. Something has to be changed!

I filled out my ENQ.
1. Domestic Support, 2. Family Commitment, 3. RC, 4. Conversation.

I am 100% available to my H. Both of my parents have passed away. No needy friends or family. No commitments, no hobbies. I'm here. Homeschooling is beneficial to our marriage. The four of us do the chores and run errands during the day. Except when the oldest is doing theater, we are home every evening. H doesn't have anything to do on weeknights.

The two hour commute started almost a year ago. Before that, he worked one hour from home.

He is a project manager in commercial construction. We live in a very rural area. So, getting a job minutes from home isn't likely. I don't see him leaving this job. We could look at moving an hour closer to the city though.

These changes could take months, if not years to implement. In the meantime, do I go without my needs being met? His top needs are affection and SF. Those are not time intensive. Mine are. His can be met between 9 and 11. I NEED my needs meet and UA so I can fall in love with my H.

I believe that people should not have sex unless they are in love. It scared me to death when I realized that the reason I didn't want to have sex with him was because I didn't love him anymore.

I don't see us divorcing. We know that isn't the solution. We are better together. We don't want other people.

If he had parenting time every Wednesday evening, would he make it home for it? Can he do that now?[/quote]

Only if "parenting time" is after 7. Only in an emergency, will he be home early (say before 6).

TO,

You are still showing a DJ tendency towards your husband (his needs are not "time intensive," yours are). And, there also seems to be a tit-for-tat perspective going on as well.

Excuse less, act more.

What are YOU doing to make your company and conversation PLEASANT? Please read up on friends/enemies of good conversation.

(if another poster could please link, it would be appreciated - phone isn't as agile as my desktop)

DS could be met by someone else. Steve Harley told us that he felt DS belonged on the LB side, because it wasn't a need that created love but could destroy it if not met. And it could be met by anybody without causing feelings of love for that person. A maid could provide DS, a gardener, your children...

Have you shared your ENQ with your husband, what was his response to what you need? Did you talk about how you would like your needs met?

I do think it is worth noting that your top 2 are not intimate needs, and your H's are.

My H placed DS very high (I have been a SAHM for a decade and am currently a college sophmore), and SH was pretty adamant that it wasn't something I needed to twist up to meet (He also suggested H has OCD). He actually told my H to do the chores he wanted done himself. We ended up buying a roomba becuase H wanted the house vacuumed daily and neither of us was willing to do that.

Let us know how your H responds to the very specific, positive, actionable things on your ENQ.

H has never expressed that my company or conversation is unpleasant. I have met my H's needs, he wants more of everything. I am trying to do that. But, my needs have gone unmet for a very long time. I am asking him to meet my needs now also.

We talked for 3 hours this evening. He says that DS and FC are #1 and #2 because he hasn't met them in so long that once he starts doing stuff around here that RC and Convo will move into the #1 and #2 spots. But, for now DS is my #1 need. I like it very much when he does stuff for me and our home. I don't expect him to do it alone either. We can do the domestic stuff together; I enjoy that. He understands that if we work together, there will be more time for affection. I like to work, maybe us working together is our RC time?

He will try to leave the office at 4. I will meet him halfway for dinner and hanging out twice a week. If he can be home at 6, then we could retire to the bedroom at 830 for UA on the other nights. He plans to use weekends for DS and FC and more UA. We are going to work hard to get 20 hours squeezed in.

Why?

Because it shows how detached you are, that you don't crave your H's affection or touch or attention, but his willingness to clean your house and do chores. And he wants your touch and affection, but you don't want to give him that because he didn't do chores.

He's not your houseboy, he's your husband, your intimate mate.

DS is a legitimate need. I won't argue that. However, your placing a non-intimate need at the top of your list tells me, like Steve told us, that meeting it will not solve your problem of detachment. For that, you need RC, affection, conversation, and SF.

Would your need be less if you placed less value on the condition of the house? If you were in it less often?

I am detached. H says there's been only one intimate need met. I have met his need for SF once a week. For years we haven't talked, played or showed affection.

I see your point. I asked him, "Why didn't I list RC, affection, convo and SF as my top needs?" He said, because you're tired of doing all this sh_t by yourself. He says, that I did crave his affection, touch and attention at one point. I had to ask him, because I couldn't remember.

Honestly, he values the condition of the house more than I. The four of us are in it 24/7. We mess it up, we clean it up. The kids and I do ALL the chores. He doesn't like it when the house is messy. If we don't clean it, he gets kinda mad. For me DS would be those things I can't do or him helping me with a task. Our house isn't finished. There are so many things that need to be done.

I want him to do those things that will help me fall in love with him again. Maybe I don't know what my needs are?

Where did he place DS?

Honestly, I did twist myself about trying to meet my H's need for DS for years, and would be so pleased by the time he came home with how wonderful our home looked, only to have him complain (okay, yell) about the position of a chair or a crumb on the floor or kool-aid stains on the refrigerator gasket...my house got downright ridiculous. I threatened to nail the chair to the floor. Promised to.

If you are tired of doing it all yourself, look at that and find solutions. Maybe your kids should go to school outside of home. Maybe you can't handle being full-time mom and housewife as much as you want to. Maybe your H needs to talk to Steve.

I can guarantee you won't fall in love with him because he does some laundry.

I talked to my H about your thread, before your last post, and he said it was probably because your H complained about the house that you listed DS on top.

What CWMI means is by him doing the dishes and laundry you are not going to fall in love. While you'll be appreciative that he helped clean and everything, it's not going to make your heart all skip a beat by him vaccuming.

He does need to be meeting your ENs while you two focus on the top intimate needs. However, you're more focused on him meeting your need for DS than you two getting involved in being alone together talking, flirting, loving, spending time together. You have a "if he'll do dishes, vaccuming, polishing, dusting, etc then we can have time together." This is a 'if he meets these needs, then we might find time to meet those needs'.

"Our house isn't finished. There are so many things that need to be done."

Is your home being renovated or built? Or are you talking about decorating?

Renovated.

It's funny to think of my home decorated. There are no knick-knacks, no pictures hung.

We finished it to the point of being livable in July 2005. There's just stuff needs to be finished. Trim work, paint, flooring, caulking, weatherizing, gutters, exterior doors etc....

My top needs are things that could be fulfilled by others. Affection and SF are #9 and #10 (meant to be fulfilled only be the spouse). Could the fact that H is 100+ lbs overweight effect those needs? I don't find him physically attractive. He has a handsome face though. He isn't much for talking. And over the past 14 years not much for doing either.

By picking four needs that can be fulfilled by others, it seems like I want a better room-mate or friend. I'm worried!

I'm no picnic either. I have a melancholy spirit. I analyse everything. Don't do things just for the fun of it. We couldn't come up with one thing I do for pleasure. I am practical and hard-working.

When people are not in love, they tend to choose non intimate emotional needs. In order to fall back in love, though, you need to be meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs 20-25 hours per week. And it is real important to be honest with him about his weight. If his weight bothers you, it should be brought up.

I would start scheduling about 4 DATES out of the house. 4 dates of 4 hours each. The most effective, high quality UA time is out of the house away from the drudge when you are at your best.

Can you get out of town for some romantic weekends?

Focus on these emotional needs:

conversation
affection
recreational companionship
sexual fulfillment

[/quote} And it is real important to be honest with him about his weight. If his weight bothers you, it should be brought up.


Can you get out of town for some romantic weekends? [/quote]

On my ENQ under physical attractiveness, I said, "I wish your tummy was smaller and I miss your muscles." I asked him last night, if there is anything on the list that seemed too much. He said no.

Childcare is a real issue. Our oldest is almost 15. That seems too young to stay home alone with two other sibs for a weekend. She babysits though for 4 or 5 hours at a time.

I need some perspective. Part of H's complaint is that he lost his wife, that I'm a mom. I lost my husband and the kids lost their dad. He told me last night, he doesn't identify as husband or dad. He sees himself as a room-mate that covers the expenses.

We need alone husband/wife time. Neither of us dispute that. But, it seems really strange to leave our kids alone for 20+ hours a week. For their ages 14, 10 and 8 is that ok?

It's not only okay, it is vital! You are doing a good thing for them by taking time to be a couple. We routinely leave our 15yo in charge of his 10, 8, and 7yo siblings.

Not only is it good for giving them a stable family by keeping mom and dad in love and together, but it teaches them lessons on independence and self-reliance that children need.

Tit-for-tat... Again.

He didn't say or think you lost your husband and the kids lost their dad, you said that as a defensive reaction to him saying he feels like he lost his wife.

Not saying it's not true, bit your thought processes are loaded with disrespectful judgments, and you continually align things as you + the kids VERSUS him.

Why? Because that is how YOU have chosen to live. How has that worked for you? Well, for one, you have a husband who feels like a walking talking meal ticket.

This weekend we had several, long conversations about my ENQ. His needs, my needs. How we will implement MB. Last night, he said, "I feel like I lost my wife when we had kids. You are just a mom." I asked him, "Do you identify with the role of husband or dad?" He said, "Neither. I feel like a room-mate, that gets sex once a week, fusses at the kids and pays the bills."

Did we DJ one another? He said, "I lost my wife to the kids, and as terrible as it sounds, I resented them for it." This is him talking, not me.

And if he's just bringing the cash and the only intimate need I supply is sex. What does that make me?

Do you realize that he doesn't meet my needs either. None of the 4 intimate needs, for years. That's why I sought out MB. Neither of us want to live like this anymore.

He aligns him versus me and the kids. I have begged him for years to join us. He separated from us. That is a fact, that we both agree on. It's not a DJ.

HHH, why do you jump on her posts? She said that HE SAID he didn't identify as husband or dad. Enough already, be helpful. FWIW, Tenacious One, my H said something very similar, and I was desperately trying to get him to take me out on dates. He said that married couples don't 'date', RC is spent with friends, and the kids were MY JOB since he made the money, then complained that he was 'just a paycheck.' Uh, ya think??? What else could you be if that's all you're willing to do???

So I empathize. Get on the dating, your H seems willing. Pry those sweet babies from your breast (figuratively, you haven't said anything about continuing to breastfeed, lol) and go be a woman with your man. This can turn around.

I'll tell (both of) you why this is DJ behavior; because your husband told you how HE felt, and you made it about YOU.

"What does that make me?"

Have the children and household been the priority for you in your marriage? The very title of this thread tells me yes, they have been.

The tricky thing is, you don't have to speak these things to your husband, because your beliefs about his feelings as he tells you dictate your actions and attitude towards him.

He says "I feel you abandoned me for the children."

STOP. Right there. Do not pass "But, but, but... You abandoned us, too!"

Stop implementing disrespectful judgments as a tool to place blame.

I'm not going to help you fix and/or blame your husband. Sorry, not how this program works. I want to help YOU model what the program offers to your husband so he will hopefully come on board. That means learning to keep your side of the street clean, not finding a way to place blame.

HHH, I haven't asked anyone to fix or blame my H. We are accepting responsibility for the choices that contributed to the decline of our marriage. Although, this is "my thread" it isn't all about me. It is about us. I can't fix this marriage by myself. I should be able to tell you something my H said or did, without it being used against me. I am not in control of his actions or feelings anymore than he is in control of mine. You are not privy to every detail. I shared a small portion of our conversation with you. If he can say, "You haven't been much of a wife to me," surely he can say to himself, "Well, I haven't been much of a husband or dad either." We see that as progress. Isn't that MB is about, what are YOU doing and what are YOU going to do to change it. You got a glimpse of the work H is doing.

H is on board with MB. But, neither of us have been meeting all 4 of the major needs. When I left the workforce to come home we, consciously or unconsciously, stepped into classic roles. The kids and home are mine; bread-winning is his. We made choices that led to our marriage being the way it is.

Most recently, after introducing MB to him, we made a little progress. But, things stalled out. We weren't meeting each other's needs and spending enough time together. We have scheduled almost 20 hours over the next 7 days. The forum and website have been amazingly helpful. I like that MB and it's posters are "in your face". Holding couples accountable. We would have never considered dating 20+ hours. We had no idea our marriage was in such bad shape. No one talks about this stuff openly. I think MB will work for us. Thank you!!

This would be the right direction. The number one thing that can help a marriage is successfully following the Policy of Undivided Attention.

Yeah, "in your face" is how it feels at first. Trust me, I got my share - and it was about the same thing; Disrespectful Judgements. Given time, I also noticed that Disrespectful Judgments took units out of my wife's account, and it was happening due to MY OWN thinking, not her words or actions.

You again gave an example of how easy it is to DJ; you tried to attribute his thoughts based on your feelings and beliefs. No, he absolutely does NOT have to say to himself what you think he should "surely" say.

And, if he doesn't? So what! Does it make him a bad man? Hell no! If you don't think or say what he expects you to think or say, does that make you a bad wife/woman/mother? Hell no!

Here's what makes us "bad;"

Refusing to meet our spouse's emotional needs.
Failing to express how our spouse can best meet our needs.
Refusing to eliminate Love Busters.
Failing to communicate with our spouse about the Love Busters they unleash on us.

We not only have to BUILD those Love Bank balances, we must PROTECT them.

HHH, I wish you would read a little more closely. She attributed his words to his mouth.

Not her head.

She is also an adult, and has been explaining herself graciously. Let's not muck it up.

The emphasized portion here; his words? He made this statement himself, without cueing or provocation?

Also, a few pages back you were explaining a conversation in which you aked your H why he thought you felt a certain way, and in that instance you got an answer you were agreeable to. That is a risk.

Had he not given an agreeable answer, the result would have a DJ.

What he believes about the way you feel about is irrelevant. The simple answer as to why you didn't feel like meeting his needs is because you were in withdrawal due to a lack of need meeting (self-imposed and imposed by him) and Love Busters draining your Love Bank balance below the romantic threshold.

The same goes for his refusal to meet your needs.

UA time is priority 1, avoiding Love Busters is priority 2, and meeting non intimate needs is priority 3 - everything else comes after that.

The point I am trying to make, is all this navel gazing about who did what and what is who's fault is nothing but a chain of Love Busting behavior that is digging a hole.

Put. Down. The. Shovel.

Thank you for the more helpful tone in your last post. I appreciate it. I think I understand what happened. When I said this in my post, (If he can say, "You haven't been much of a wife to me," surely he can say to himself, "Well, I haven't been much of a husband or dad either." ), I should have said surely he can say this of himself; not to himself. My bad!

For clarification, he made this statement himself, without cueing or provocation. In the context of him explaining that my role (according to him) was primarily that of mom, not wife. He said, "I feel like I lost my wife, you are just a mom now." My question to him was, "What role do you identify with, husband or dad?" He could have answered this question any number of ways. But, he said out loud, "Neither. I feel like a room-mate, who gets sex once a week, fusses at the kids, and pays the bills." I asked him last night, if I had blamed him or DJ'd him during this exchange? He said, "No, you asked a question, I answered it."

I will admit I DJ my husband. We have our safe word that we use when we LB. He tells me when I LB him. We are much more aware now. And I agree that the fault finding should be over. But, honestly without it (in the beginning), we would still be in the status quo. Our independent behavior, enabling, "just keep the peace" attitude for almost 15 years is what kept us apart. After beating each other senseless with those shovels, we are here. Bruised and battered, but together.

The "tone" of my posts usually has to do with brevity, as I post more often from my phone while I'm at work than I do from home. I have not the patience to flower up my language on a little touch screen keyboard... and auto-correct/predictive text is a little zany.

If I am curt, it is because I don't believe in cheer leading people on spouse bashing, or blowing sunshine up their hoo-ha when they have some exhibited thought patterns and behaviors which are glaring examples of LB behaviors.

I picked that up from fellow posters, and I thank them for direct honesty, not pulling punches, and not letting defensiveness stop honesty.

Now, here is the other post I was referring to;


You were fishing here. Fishing for a fight. You asked a question to which you already had one single "right" answer for. Luckily, in this instance, he got it right.

He shouldn't do this to you, nor you to him. It's a setup to run such lines of questioning.

Here are different versions of this statement;

"Why do YOU think I feel this way?"

"How do YOU think I should feel?"


It's argument bait. His opinion on your feelings is irrelevant. It is the actions that count. If his opinion when you ask one of these argument-baiting questions isn't your predetermined answer, then the only possible result is an exchange of Disrespectful Judgments; whatever he says that doesn't fit the answer he couldn't possibly know without weeks of study on the texts of Nostromdamus, or you thinking he's an idiot/jerk because he didn't read your mind.

Don't do that any more. Quit setting him and yourself up with these leading questions.

A couple of questions.

I've read everything here and read many threads. Sometimes I'm left with the impression, meet your spouses needs. Period. Then, I read the POJA. Don't do anything you are not enthusiastic about, don't meet your spouses needs at your expense. Is it a question of will? Can you clarify this for me?

Also, have you ever denied your kids doing something because it would interfere with UA with your spouse?

He said, "I feel like I lost my wife, you are just a mom now."
You could say: "What can we do about that?"

His complaints are telling you there is a problem (yes there are many problems, but this is one you can do something about.)

Ask him "What would it feel like to you for me to feel like a wife to you?"
"How would an ideal week be like if you felt I was like a wife? Just brainstorm what would happen each day."
Then take his feedback and say "Okay, if we were to have SF everyday, we would need to be in bed by 10:00 so we would have time. I think we could do that is you put Junior to bed while I make the kids lunch. Also if you took out the garbage while i watched the kid's homework we would have more time. Do you think we could try that? I want you to feel like I am your wife again."

So instead of out and out saying "and you have to be a husband and dad", you are letting him know the things he has to be doing so you can be doing what he would like.

I think the idea is that to have a good marriage, you have to be open to the idea of meeting your spouses's need otherwise there is sort of no point. But you shouldn't have to meet that need at your expense. How can it be agreeable to meet that need?

Let's say you are talking about SF. Yes, you should try to meet your spouse's need for SF. But that doesn't mean that the wife has to do everything. If the man, for example, has a higher desire, then he should make it effortless for the wife to meet his need. So he should be affectionate, have some conversation with her earlier in the day, and maybe help get the kids to bed so she has time and energy to meet his need. He may need to initiate. He should engage in foreplay to help get her arroused. Perhaps he should snuggle with her afterward.

What? Why does he have to do all that work? Because he has the higher need. But if the wife has a need for conversation, then maybe she needs to come up with some conversation topics. And have the kids doing their homework so they have a quiet time to talk. And make sure she isn't watching TV so they won't be distracted. She needs to make it effortless for him.

The answer to this is: find a way to meet your spouse's needs that you are enthusiastic about. This may take some doing, but is not impossible.

Dr. Harley says the best arrangement is for the person for whom the need is less important (whether that need be SF, intimate conversation, affection, or recreational companionship) to arrange to meet the higher-need spouse's needs as often as they like -- but do it the way that the lower-need spouse likes. As an example: sex as often as the spouse with the high sex drive likes, but done the way the low-need spouse prefers. Likewise for conversation, etc.

He's got specific arrangements in his books for the other six nonintimate needs, such as domestic support. There are specific plans to get each need met.


I've denied my children things many times for many reasons, but it always came down to the fact that it was best for them.

There are lots of good things you can give your children in life; it's never a question of them having a warped childhood just so that you can have a good marriage. Instead, it's a fact that if you don't make your marriage first, they will have a warped childhood no matter what you give them.

Update

Got in full a 20 hours UA meeting needs. DH put in a dishwasher, fixed the water heater and installed weather stripping around the doors. He sat down with us and helped come up with a plan for our (kids and me) daytime schedule. Homework and chores cannot run into the evenings. He's holding us accountable to it. 80% of the time he is home at 6. We retire to the bedroom at nine.

DH told me last night that he had a talk with his former gaming buddy. DH told him that he missed talking to him every night and killing stuff. But, he could never go back to gaming again. Life now is just so much better!!

HHH, I read a thread back from July where you told the OP that IB's are "cake eating". That the other spouse needs to be "better cake".

I guess we are better cake!

Oh and BTW, my contribution is praising my DH and giving many hugs and kisses. Just what he needs!

Congrats! I felt similar as your hubby when i stopped gaming .. but i had to stop gaming to get my wife to stop! I played the same online game for like 8 years ... a very social game .. I played as a "good guy" and my wife played as a bad guy. It was tough! Fun at first .. but eventually it wore us out and our gaming boiled into our real life.

Keep up the great work! ... it takes time .. but so does everything.

I believe that, for most people, putting a little more priority on meeting our spouse's needs and eliminating Love Busters will lead to a spouse who is more willing to commit to UA time, which leads to both spouses falling in love, which leads to further elimination of Love Busters (most commonly when it comes to IB).

My wife still watches TV shows that I hate, and I still play online games (I did quit for about 10 months. HOWEVER, neither of us do these things if we can spend time together. It's usually when we have an opposite work schedule.

We just got finished scrubbing the fridge 'n freezer together.

:p

Gotta new issue on the horizon. One year ago, DH was laid off. He found a comparable job within weeks. But, the new job is about 60 miles from home into the city. During traffic it's 1 1/2 to 2 hour commute. He leaves at 5 am returns at 6ish. Our marriage is much better now. We are getting in around 15 hours UA per week. One date night usually. He wants to consider moving closer into town about 25 miles from the office. The company wants him to open a new division. It will mean more money, but also more hours at work and some dinner meetings. He wants to live closer so he can take this promotion. He wants to live in a nicer home. He wants a smaller yard in a subdivision (less maintenance). He doesn't want find another job closer to home. He likes his job and the potential for growth there. He likes his bosses and co-workers too.

The kids and I aren't really feeling it. Currently, we live in the woods on some acreage. We have privacy and security. Family on both sides. The kids have freedom to play anywhere, anytime.

I am trying to be supportive. I wouldn't want a two hour commute either. But, I'm not seeing anything in it for us (me and the kids). It's not like we're gonna see him more, just the opposite. Our kids love living in the country.

Help me with my attitude. I want to make a good decision for everyone. I don't want to move.

That's it, right there.

That's all.


Don't use the kids to buffet. It's great to take them into consideration, but they will eventually grow up, move out, marry, and have families themselves.

They are children.


If you don't want to move, don't move. If it's not PoJA, don't do it. But, don't use the kids as your backup. They don't get a voice in PoJA - that's between you and your husband.

We are back to square one. We had a perfect storm just as we began to see some progress. I got sick. I'm still sick. My family doc mentioned chronic fatigue syndrome. Seeing a rheumatologist on Aug 7. Been in a pretty deep depression for a month or so. I am taking st johns wort and a host of supplements. I know the illness is amplifing the problems. We are not getting 15 hours together and when we are together it's not pleasant. I don't enjoy anything anymore.

I have taken a break from homeschooling, so that is off my shoulders for now. We made a schedule together back in January. We were all hopeful. Things started to unravel during the day. We weren't able to finish everything by 6. DH started to get annoyed with us. DJing us daily because we just couldn't get "our $hit" together. If we would just do what he tells us to do, then our evenings would be relaxing. What he didn't know was that I was a crazy, stressed out mama yelling at the kids all day. To hurry up, daddy will be home. He's gonna be mad at us!

When I shared this with him. He said, "Well you wanted me to get involved, you wanted me to quit gaming. See I had my head in the game for years and I could overlook all this stuff. I'm here, I'm engaged."

He is aggravated with me. If I would just conduct my day the way he thinks I should, we would have all this time available. Yes, we probably would. But, I'm a freaking mess at the end of the day. Our goal with the daytime schedule was for me to be rested and calm in the evenings. Not still managing the kids and house. I could just sit with him on the couch and chill. Whatever loving feelings developed are gone. I feel like a total failure.

We went back to the drawing board. He did agree that the kids' education is the priority. He relented that if the housework and dinner wasn't done by 6, that he would lower his expectation on those two points.

I want to try this again. How do we navigate (POJA) this daytime schedule. I really want to be able to sit and relax in the evenings.

Please listen.
Radio clip on making her husband happy
Radio clip on POJA
Segment #2

Please listen to this clip on blaming.

Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on the blame game

I read over my thread. There is an us vs him tone. It plays out in our home too. I don't know how to overcome it. After giving up gaming, he rejoined "us". He is a perfectionist, we are not perfectionists. Sometimes what we want in a spouse is so different from what we've got...I'm rambling. I don't know if I can make him happy. There it is.

What would make my H happy? I asked him this question recently. He said, "For all my desires to be the same as his desires." He wants to traditional marriage. Wife cooks and cleans, raises good kids. But, be a sexy, handsy wife too.

He doesn't understand how freaking tiresome, isolating, sometimes boring, so not sexy my life is. He wants someone that behaves much differently than me. I have heard "feelings follow action." Yes, they do. The feelings I've had for many years after having sex when I didn't want to. Having sex with someone who didn't give a rat's tail about my needs. Those are feelings I don't want. Need meeting for years without having my needs met haven't created loving feelings. He feels guilty and I feel used.

The daytime schedule was POJA'd. That's why I was so freaked out when I couldn't live up to my agreement. I was enthusiastic about when I agreed. We were both discouraged when it didn't have the desired outcome.

The blame game... How do we stop? There are so many problems, so much blame to go around.

Please listen to this clips on different personalities. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on different personality
Radio clip on compatibility

Our biggest mistake is not knowing about and thus not implementing the POJU and POUA. That is the crux of the matter. Our personalities are not that different. He is more A than I. But, not obnoxious about it. I'm definitely type B. The first eight years were easy. That's why I picked him, he was easy to get along with. He wasn't an addict. He was a hard worker. He wasn't mean to me. Sex has always been an issue though. Opposite drives for sure. We didn't spend much time together though when we were dating. The first three months we were separated 300 hundred miles. The second three months we were together daily. The third three months again separated by 300 miles. Our first five years were spent establishing careers and building our first home. UA was spent discussing our goals and dreams, going out to eat, watching movies and TV. Honestly, we have never really been "undivided attention" type people. There have always been distractions. Planning, working, doing. Both of our mother's were widowed early, so they took up much of those first few years. We've never been just about him and me.

After listening to the clip about compatibility, we should be more compatible. I think because we aren't very different, one of us is obsolete. I can't speak for him, but I'm bored outta my mind. Nothing is fun. Everything is work.

Our marriage does look like our parents' marriages though. That's glaringly obvious.

Mistakes no POJA, no POUA and we try to "straighten each other out".

So can you start scheduling your UA time? Can you get in 20 hrs?

Listen to this one.
Radio clip on what to do to fall back in love

We are scheduling UA time today. We can come close to 20 hours. We can get about 4 hours out of the house. The rest will be in the evenings from 9 to 11. He gets home at 6 or 7. It varies greatly.

We had a nice long talk last night. We do not want to divorce. But, we both see it coming when the kids get older, if things don't change.

He doesn't think that it's a DJ to blame me for not getting everything done around here so that we can have UA time. He says, Whose fault is it then? It's not his. I should have planned my day better. I agree, maybe I should. I told him, I don't look forward to seeing my angry father. I want to see my loving husband. I asked him, if he would email the Harley's. They would be able to answer his questions. He said he would.

Can someone post clips about spouses "straightening out" each other. Or clips about how to prioritize life. Neither us have ever had a problem with him working late or bring work home or going into the office on Sunday. How is that different from me still doing laundry or loading the dishwasher at 10 pm?

I'm tired of shouldering the responsibility of this failing marriage.

Here are some good ones. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on putting each other first
Radio clip on DJs
Segment #2
Segment #3

T, we also had problems with DS. Not to the point of it interfering with my availability for UA time, but that's because I have no issue with leaving things undone in order to have fun and relaxation time. My H did have problems with undone things, though, and would come home and start cleaning; if I was still cooking dinner as he walked in the door (often, because we like to eat as a family) he would begin wiping down the counters, would even pick up a pan off the stove that was still cooking to clean the hot eye under it! It was insane. Steve told him to look into OCD.

Anyway, if we could work it out with an OCD person, ya'll have a good chance because your husband is not OCD, right? Is he demanding perfection? Is the list of chores beyond what is possible?

I tried for a long time to make my H happy in the DS dept, long before I found MB. One helpful guide I found was flylady.net. She gives you a basic whole-house schedule along with daily chores to keep your crib spiffy. I started doing that when my three youngest were 3 and under--I was wore out, confused, and feeling like I could accomplish NOTHING, and it helped.

Look at flylady and see if helps you feel less overwhelmed. If you like it, share it with your husband and let him know you have a new plan of attacking your responsibilities at home and would like his support.

When we were working with Steve, he had each of us make a list of chores that were important for us to get done. Mine was brief, H's was extensive. Next time we got on the phone with Steve, he asked if we completed our lists, we said yes, then Steve said, "Okay, now each of you take care of the things on your OWN list." My H was, erm, going to show me how easy it was to take care of the things he wanted done, and after spending six hours cleaning ~1200sf of hardwood flooring, he relented that perhaps he was expecting too much. I do NOT suggest you have your husband do the same exercise, but feel free to share my story with him!

Here are some more. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on DS
Segment #2

Ok HHH, that was a major DJ. How could I have expressed that without DJing?

"I feel disrespected when I am making attempts to please you and you come in and point out my failures. It makes me feel like giving up. I would appreciate it if you would encourage me instead of blaming me. How about if we sit down and make a new plan of attack? CWMI sent me this great website to help, will you look at it with me?"

Also another excellent clip on the different types of resentment and how to get POJA to work. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on resentment and POJA

He is a self-professed perfectionist. DS is high on his EN's list. He thinks because the kids and I are home all day and 90% of the mess is ours we should be the ones to clean the house. We clean the house daily. Sweep/vac, dishwasher, laundry and trash. Thing is, we are in the house 24/7, there's always something to put away or do. We homeschool. So, there are books, arts and crafts, random writings and illustrations around. Life. It's looks like kids live here. He wants our homeschool, housework and dinner finished and put away by 6. That's his biggest issue. It gets done, just not by 6. Sometimes we must leave for outside classes or errands. That means all this stuff needs to be done by 3. Because we live so far out is takes 30 to 45 mins just in drive time do anything. We often return home from these outings after 6. He comes home, we aren't here. Chores aren't done, supper isn't ready.

Yikes, TenaciousOne, this sounds like my house before we started MarriageBuilders!
My H is the stay at home Dad, and we also educate our children at home. I would come home from work and have to spend 3 hours cooking/cleaning and doing laundry...

First of all, I think all of this can be POJA'd-you just have to keep working/refining it until you are both happy. It is critical during this time that you keep up the UA time. Whatever you do, do not use your UA time for POJA'ing these tricky topics. POJA is great, but it takes time to get it right. It will come easier to both of you when your UA time is consistently high.

A couple of things that helped my H as far as the running of the household:

If possible plan 30-45 minitues of chore time first thing in the morning. This way you are starting off with a clean slate. Make a list and assign on a daily/weekly basis. Every-one- except for infants/toddlers (under 18 months)- gets to do something.
Absolutely no toys out while schoolwork is being done.
No fun stuff/optional activities until schoolwork is done.
One toy/type of toy out at a time. Example if they are playing with legos and want to play a game or do a puzzle, the legos must be put away before another game/puzzle is got out.
15 minute clean up at the end of the day (before supper/leaving for activity).
Plan supper-either have it in the crockpot first thing, or have a half dozen go-to meals that you always have the ingredients on hand for, that can be made in 20-30 minutes.

I think you are doing better than you think you are - you just have to keep working it. You are not back to square one if your husband has given up the gaming and is expresing his desires.
Go over your ENQ's again and refine-talk to your H about LB's-your and his.
Remember, the biggest gift you can give your kids a great marriage!
Keep at it-this program works. Hope this helps.
Good Luck!
RC

I know this doesn't rise to the level of some of the recent discussion on here, but it matters to me. We were having dinner yesterday. DH ordered a salad, as the server was leaving the table, I said, "Hold the croutons." He shot me a look, rolled his eyes and grimaced. I asked him, "What did I do?" He said I was out of line by saying hold the croutons. That he's not a child,he can order what and how he wants. OK, I don't disagree with that.

This year he discovered that all his digestive issues are due to celiac disease. As the primary cook, I have educated myself on what he can eat and cannot. He said to me, "Just tell me what to eat." He hasn't self-educated. He doesn't remember to read labels. He eats wheat, gets sick, misses work.

How should I have handled the croutons? Obviously, it pissed him off. I think I should say nothing, actually. We were at a party. His sister (knowing he has celiac) offered him a cupcake. He ate it, saying he didn't want to hurt her feelings. I was livid. He was sick for two days. I work my tail off to cook grain free food for him and our DD, read about their illness, educating myself so I can cook healthy meals for them.

Should I not be so invested? Should I not care? Should I keep my mouth shut? And knowingly, let him eat wheat?

I would leave him alone. He didn't like you telling the waitress to hold the croutons, so don't do that again. It was a lovebuster. All you had to do was say you are sorry and move on. Don't pester him about this anymore; just give him the correct information and leave it.

I am in the same boat as you, so I have learned how much you can damage a marriage by trying to tell your husband how to eat. It doesn't work and you only harm your marriage!

I probably would have done the same thing, sadly! My H is lactose intolerant. I don't manage it for him, but it's not quite as bad as what you're describing. It's not something that was diagnosed, we just 'discovered' it by experimentation. He said it couldn't be that because he's always eaten dairy, and he's always had the same issue (lolol), so I suggested we try taking him off it for a week and see if his problem cleared up. It did. His attitude now is kinda like, "Well, neato. I'll pay for eating this bowl of cheese dip, but it's worth it."

But it's nothing he loses work over.

I don't know much about celiac. Are there serious long-term consequences? Or is this something where he's willing to pay the price for having a cupcake occasionally?

I would make it more about how much it bothers you to see him make himself sick, and less about how he should listen to you and let you manage his care.

Celiac is an autoimmune disease. It takes a long time to heal the intestine. It's complicated. It bothers me greatly to see him make himself sick! It is a lovebuster for me too.

But you need to handle it in a way that does not lovebust HIM. The fact that you don't like seeing him sick is not a justification for your lovebuster. Do you see that? You shouldn't be directing his life like he is a child. That is a disrespectful judgment. You can only tell him you are concerned and use respectful persuasion to get him to make better choices.

Yeah, I read up on it now. He can destroy his intestines and die of malnutrition. That's a bit different from what my H deals with!

Does he understand the seriousness of correctly managing his diet? Is he under a doctor's care? Can you talk to the doctor, and let him/her be the heavy?

No, he doesn't understand the seriousness. He isn't under the care of the dr. The treatment is complete avoidance of the food. When he discovered that it is wheat that makes him sick, he asked me to tell him what to do. He said, "Cook the food and I'll eat it."

I truly had no idea that "Hold the croutons" was an LB. After everything he's asked me to do for him, hold the croutons didn't seem like "directing his life for him." He asks me to do many things for him.

He has gone to GI doctors in the past. Their recommendations never worked. The only thing that has worked is a wheat free diet. It is serious. We've had to cut outings short or not go at all. He's missed work. I don't want to LB my husband, but I don't want him sick either. I can't MAKE him cook his food, read about his illness and the effects, be proactive in his own health. He ASKED me to do it for him.

You should not have spoken to the waitress. After the waitress left, you might have quietly suggested to him that he think about taking out the croutons as they make him ill.

Then later POJA exactly this scenario with him so that in future you have the right actions in place for future incidents. Part of the POJA is going to be your feelings about having to nurse self inflicted injuries.

This isn't an answer to the problem you posted, but I just want to add that coelic disease is an allergy to gluten, not just to wheat.

"Gluten, which is found in wheat, barley and rye triggers an immune reaction in people with coeliac disease. This means that eating gluten damages the lining of the small intestine. Other parts of the body may be affected."

http://www.coeliac.org.uk/coeliac-disease/what-is-coeliac-disease

Why isn't he under the care of a doctor? Receiving medical instructions about the seriousness of his disease, and how to manage it, might make him take the issue seriously.

Many restaurants will offer gluten-free alternatives to food like croutons. I agree with the advice that said you need to talk about this and POJA how much help you can give your H, and under what circumstances.

Has he been tested for celiac disease? If this is just something you guys experimented with (like us), I'd suggest that you speak to him about getting the tests done for a definitive answer. To be tested, though, he needs to eat a 'normal' diet, because avoiding gluten can affect the accuracy of results. Talk to the doctor beforehand and find out how he should eat in the days or weeks prior to the initial test.

According to my research, they do one series (blood tests and biopsy the intestines) for an initial diagnosis, then another series ~6 mos later after strictly following a gluten-free diet, which should show healthy intestines, in order to complete the diagnosis.

I would just tell him that you are not enthusiastic about ignoring the seriousness of this, and ask him to go to the doctor to be sure, so you both can get clear guidelines on what to do to make sure that you get to love on him for many, many years to come. If your regular provider has been unhelpful, google something like "recommended celiac physicians + your town" to find a new one. LOTS of people like to talk about diseases and good and bad doctors on the internet.

I believe that Dr Harley has said something to the effect of POJA not applying when it comes to health and safety or an emergency, but this isn't quite in the category of someone having a heart attack who won't allow you to call an ambulance, where you can override their objection.

I'll search the private forum to see if I can find anything similar that he has advised on.

But now you do know, so you can stop doing it in the future. It is up to him to tell you when something bothers him so he did the right thing. Just tell him you are sorry and drop it. My husband would have been embarrassed if I spoke on his behalf to a waitress so I would know not to do it.

We will POJA this tonight, when he gets home. His reaction (eye roll, the look, the grimace) was a DJ no? I understand we should complain without being disrespectful. It seems disrespectful, correct me if I'm wrong.

What will be your approach about your own disrespectful behavior? You upset him when you spoke for him to the waitress. How will you address this?

I will not come between him and his food. He is a grown up capable of making food choices and living with the consequences. I will not get upset if he eats something he shouldn't. That is his business; not mine. Did I miss anything?

Dr Harley would probably say it is your business because you are his wife, but I think a less direct approach would work better for you. Try using respectful persuasion to get him on board and avoid coming across as bossy. Ask him how you can help him in a way that won't offend him.

I know it is very tempting to lecture and try to force but that never works. My H also has health issues and he hates being told what to do. He does like it when I find information for him and then let him make the decision. He has adopted many of the ideas I have given him. For example, I read that Omega 3 is very good for heart patients. I bought a bottle and set it out on the desk in our study. [we both take it] I didn't say anything but I soon noticed he was taking it every day.

You missed the middle ground found in this suggestion above:


From what you've said, calling his attention to the wheat item wasn't the problem; calling out to the waitress to override his order was. You could express your concerns respectfully in the right direction and right manner. After that yes, the choice is up to him, but if he's not being made to feel like a child he's more likely to hear your concerns.

I think part of the problem is that him eating Croutons doesn't just effect the DH...if he does not feel well, then he does not spend time with OP/help around the house/parent/go to work.

I agree that you could say that you understand he didn't like you asking the waitress to hold the croutons on his behalf and you totally get why that is annoying. You can ask him how he thinks that type of situation should be handled...that you know that what he puts in his body is his business, but he should remember how him not feeling well affects the rest of the family.

What should my attitude be about meeting DH's needs when UA isn't happening and my needs aren't being met?

After a year of studying MB, we've been able to institute the POJA and eliminate most (98%) of LB's. Our marriage is better.

UA has always been the issue for us. After reading, that work shouldn't take more than 50 hours of your week, we realized that's been THE issue all along.

It isn't up yet but whenever they get my show from Monday November 12th up, you need to listen to probably the 4 sections of it. He talked to my husband about why UA was important. My husband doesn't think it is important either and would rather work or do chores or spend time with kids. Whenever, they get it on the archives I think Brainy will post it to my thread so you can listen to it.

My husband thinks it's important. He just hasn't been available for UA because of work. Both of us have put our jobs before the marriage. He is the provider, going above and beyond in his career, he has a very strong work ethic. "Do whatever it takes to get the job done."

Here's what we've done....Put career and raising kids before our marriage. His job,my job. His job sitch isn't changing, probably not until retirement.

A couple of years ago, I came to the realization that I didn't love him anymore. I don't want to have sex, I can't fake it any longer. The jig is up. We both know it.

I feel like such a jerk though. He works so hard, he doesn't abuse us, he doesn't drink or do drugs. Most women would say I should be ashamed of myself. You're not in love with him? He's so good to you?! Yes, I know! But, we've spent NO time together for almost 20 years. Most people think that being a good provider or being a wonderful mother and housekeeper should be enough. They are wrong, I want more! How can I ask for more? He doesn't have it!

Yes, I want links to radio shows. I need help!

Yes, my links would definitely help you. One thing I did as well is I kept track of exactly where he spend his time. If you have a problem as well, then you could track your time as well. The thing is, my husband puts in 45-50 hours a week in a regular job, BUT he could still put in the 15 hours of UA if it were important to him. I'm supposed to let him listen to my show and then have him write to Dr. Harley. So I'll let everyone know how it goes. Others have suggested signing up for counseling with Steve. Is there any way your husband would sign up for that? It could be your Christmas present.

Then I'd say you're in for a lifetime of never getting your needs met. Are you up for that?


Hard to love a man who doesn't do what it takes to meet your needs.



Stop listening to other people who don't follow the policies of MB. They are poison to your mind. They've got you feeling guilty when you're being deprived. You have the right to have the right marriage for you. You are bashing yourself for wanting something that makes you feel loved. That's messed up.


I don't believe it for a second. He has it. He has plenty. You and him just have to readjust your priorities. What should come first?

A few months ago, I told him Dr H recommends 50 hours for work. We kinda laughed about that. It's never been 50 hours. Right now, he's gone about 70 to 80 hours a week. Twenty of that is commute.

We never consider his job a problem. Never thought it was ok to even think about putting the marriage before the job. Honestly, in real life, we don't know anyone who does.

My husband is hurting too. He wants a wife who loves him. A wife who wants to have sex with him. But, if I ever in the last 20 years asked him to get a job where he could be home more....please, he would look at me like I'd lost my mind.

I spent much of the day reading Mr. Alias' and Tirewife's threads. I await radio archive links.

We made a good effort last spring, but we can't plan and there's no consistency.

As soon as they post the shows in the archives I will post tiredwife's show.

Here are some good shows. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on the Love Bank
Segment #2

Radio clip of Husband having affair with his job
Segment #2
Segment #3

Thank you Brain for the links they are very helpful.

The first set of clips spoke about happiness being a motivator. It's not a motivator for me. Happiness doesn't dictate what I do. I would never leave my marriage because I'm unhappy. If I do something, it is because I want to or out of moral obligation. If I don't want to do something, I ask myself if I'm morally obligated. If I am, I do it. Regardless, of what I want or my happiness. I can't think of one thing I do just for the fun of it.

The second set of clips totally describe us. We stopped having fun. We don't place a high priority on fun either as a couple or as a group. If we do something, it's because it needs to be done, if I happens to be fun also, then okay it's fun too.

We agree, the lifestyle choices we made had detrimental consequences on our marriage.

Presently, our kids are now old enough to be left alone. We can now do things without them. Time and money are what prevent us from UA.

We are both concerned that if he changes careers and is then able to spend more time together, will we fall in love again?

Boy, you sure sound a lot like us. I think part of it comes with homeschooling. You do it because it is the right thing, not because it is fun!

We are a little different in that I definitely haven't lost my love for my husband but he doesn't do any love busters like it sounds like your husband does so maybe that it what made the difference...

I will say this for me that my mood/depression is directly related to how much time we spend together. If we get at least 12 hours, then I am in a great mood. If we only get 4, I am horribly down. And seriously it can change in an instant. A couple of weeks ago, we hadn't been getting enough time. I resented homeschooling and was in a FOUL mood taking everything out on my daughter. I had just about decided that I wanted to stop homeschooling her. The next morning my husband could tell something was wrong. He wanted to know if it was something he had done if we hadn't been spending enough time together. I broke down crying and told him yes that was it. He called me later and sobbing I told him I was a terrible mom, I needed to stop homeschooling, etc. He told me all the reasons I wasn't terrible an what a great job he thought I was doing and listed all of these great things. ( Since admiration is my top need, it really filled my tank.) He then invited me to lunch out.
The next day was completely different with my daughter. She didn't get on my nerves and we had a great day.

Hubby is flying back tonight and that is one thing I will tell him. He wants me to keep homeschooling. ( Funny, since I had to convince him when we first started as he was against it!) If he wants me to, then I need more time with him to stay sane!

I'll be praying for you!

Here's another clip.

Radio clip on Workaholics

[quote=MrAlias]Then I'd say you're in for a lifetime of never getting your needs met. Are you up for that?[quote=MrAlias]

I have thought about this very question for a long time now. I will not divorce my husband because my needs aren't met. There are too many good things about our marriage. It's not worth tearing our family apart.

He said he would look for a job closer to home, if his bonus isn't large enough. If they pay him for all these hours he's put in this year, he will stay. The deciding factor is compensation, not hours.

I am only in control of myself. I love my husband, I love our family. I will make decisions that I think will keep us together.

I was where you are. Willing to play the martyr for the sake of the family although mine had an end to it. Once the kids were adults I was going to weigh my options. I soon found out though, for me, it wasn�t going to work. I started to resent her way too much. I could hardly stand being around her even though we were quite civil to each other. It�s hard to watch life pass by being only somewhat happy but mostly feeling neglected and thus irritated.

I guess I would recommend you ask him to find a win/win regarding his work (POJA). When you start weighing all the deciding factors (time away from home, money spent traveling, a declining R with you(potential divorce which is spendy), etc) it seems a job closer is going to have plenty of compensation � some even in the form of money.

I agree you can only control yourself. I fear where you may end up if you continue to choose to do the martyr thing.

MrAlias is absolutely dead on. Sacrifice leads to seething resentment that only grows and grows. People who make sacrifices tend to keep score and when the score is not even, they resort to demands and other abusive strategies to even the score. Harley calls that a renters approach to marriage. No amount of money will make up for that. There is no need to create a lifestyle of resentment when you have so many good alternatives. You can have both the financial security and a great marriage. Why not choose that?

They finally posted it.
Radio clip of tiredwife's call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Here's a recent clip on workaholics.

Radio clip on workaholics

Thank you Brain for the links. I love listening to them.

I still need help in one specific area. How do I handle his need for SF, if UA isn't happening. I still have a bit of aversion around my neck. We haven't recovered the romantic love yet either obviously.

He said last night, he wants to have SF more often, he wants me to be more engaged. I said, ME TOO. But, I can't will it to be so. When can we get the UA going? When can we have a romantic, in-love marriage?

He said, he doesn't know. He can't spend more time with me. He can't work less. He said, "What do you want to me to do?" "Quit my job?" I understand his job sitch is funky right now. He would lose a nice bonus, he would get fired if he worked less. Those aren't options either. It would be easier for us the poja an SF schedule without adding UA. But, I know the resentment would build back up.

So, he said....NO UA, NO SF. Sort of statement/question. I said, NO that's not the solution. I don't expect you to live in a sexless marriage. But, neither of us want to make the resentment worse. I would be sacrificing so he could gain. He was so mad. I'm so scared.

I've done this for soooo long. Give without expecting anything in return. He thinks, quitting his job, so we can have UA is a marriage builders deal breaker.

Mind you, we filled out all the questionnaires, read HNHN's. He knows the program.

He doesn't need to quit his job. He needs to find a better one. This one is killing his marriage. I think you need to tell him that in a thoughtful, respectful way.

Yes, Mr A a different job is in order. But, I don't know that he will get one. If he gets a nice bonus, he is staying put. Also, in his line of work, commercial construction...no one works 40 hours a week. Honestly, he has worked over 40 hours a week for the last 20 years. He has NEVER put in only 50 hours towards work (like Dr H said we should).

Even if he decides to change jobs, it may take a long time to find another one. What do we do in the meantime? No SF or Yes SF? He, absolutely, will not make a change until after the first of the year. What do I do?

I've read your thread, TW. Our situations do sound similar. I emailed the show today.

What did you mutually agree to do?

Rhetorical questions: How many hours does he work? How many hours are you together? What things can you do together that today you do alone? What other things get in the way of UA? If he were to keep this job what else could be done to increase the number of hours together? Can his travel time be reduced? Can you move to be closer to his work?

When you're brainstorming you have to be creative and sometimes go WAY out of the box to find a suitable solution.

At that time we agreed to stay in this current house. We looked at houses closer to his job (1 hour commute). We don't have enough cash or time to finish our current house and be able to sell it. We can't afford two houses. At the time, he wasn't thinking we would move to get more family time, we would move so he could take a promotion and actually work more. As the year progressed, he didn't get the promotion, but work has just exploded. All the project mgrs. are working like mad. Business is booming in Houston. He will look for a comparable job closer to home after the first of the year. But, if they give him a big bonus....he might not be so willing to leave. That's the problem he is having. He's never put the marriage before his job. It seems so foreign to him.

As far as UA, we sometimes get 4 or 5 hours on Sunday. We will go out to dinner, then grocery shopping. On week nights, he comes home late 7-8, we eat dinner as a family and he goes to bed 930-10. Saturday, he might do some work from home on his laptop, then go to Judo class with our son from 12-2 and come home and get a little rest. We don't usually do anything together on Saturday. Honestly, he is very tired keeping this schedule. I feel guilty asking for more from him.

His daily schedule.

Get up around 4-430 am
Leave the house at 430-5 am
Work anywhere from 630 am to as late 8 pm
Return home anywhere from 6pm to 10 pm
Day over. There's no predicting, his workload changes practically daily. If they give him a job to bid, he has to stay and get ready for it. If there's a deadline, he has to stay and make the superintendent and subs get the work done.

Have you seen this?
The critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Are you trying to think outside the box and come up with ways to spend more UA time with him? The hours he has free what is done with those hours and how could you spend them together?

In one of the clips I listened to, Dr H says he was working 90 hour weeks and still going out on dates with Mrs. H. How can that be?

Anyway, H's company Christmas party was last night. He was awarded Top Producer of the Year. I'm not sure what that means for us. He's been gone about 80 hours for the last few weeks. We managed to get in some UA over the weekend (about 6 hours).

Still no SF. I feel bad for him. He is working so hard. Should we POJA the SF need?

Did you ever hear back from the Harleys?

No. I've been watching for it in my inbox and spam folders.

H and I understand the problem and agree on a solution. We just need to know how to handle the "in the meantime".

He has agreed to look for a job closer to home, but if work is good and the money is there, moving closer to work will be on the table too.

But, we don't know how long it will take to make these adjustments.

Did you send it over a week ago?

I would notify the MODS and send it through them and they will make sure the Harleys receive it.

I work 70 - 80 hour weeks and we still go out once a week and manage at least 10 hours of UA time, most weeks more.

Update

I talked to Mrs. Harley last week on the phone. She suggested talking to a realtor about selling the house and moving closer to DH's job. DH will start his new job next Monday. It is still in the city, but the hours should be less.

UA is better. Maybe 10 hours a week. LB's have been fine too.

But, DH started playing an online game with our son. But, I know he his playing this game on is own sometimes too. DH has been "game free" for just over a year. I'm ok with him playing a video game with our kids on the Wii. Wii games usually have a stopping point. And he must share the tv with the other family members. But, online gaming is much more isolating and one can easily be sucked into hours and hours of game play. It is a "slippery slope".

How should I handle this? POJA? Should we be a "game free" family? So he's not tempted.

Asking for prayers and "happy MB thoughts." DH starts his new business venture tomorrow. Our plan is to build a home office for him very soon, so he can work from home as often as possible. Our hope is to limit the terrible daily commute. This just seems like an answer to prayer. He will be home so much more now. UA here we come!

I've found a happy marriage limits my game time tremendously....

We are not making much progress. I don't know what my EN's are. When we did the questionnaire, I listed conversation and RC. But, engaging in those aren't bringing back the love for me. I've reconsidered my EN's. I applied the question...What did you enjoy together before you married? I think, I married him because he wasn't an [censored]. Seriously. The first boyfriend was so mean and abusive, that when DH showed up....WOW. He was a Godsend. But, I've never craved him to meet any of the typical top four needs. These needs aren't there anymore. They aren't being met by someone else either. I mostly just listen, I don't talk much anymore. I don't want to go anywhere. My RC partners are DH and kids. The kids and I are home most days doing lessons. I don't hang out with anyone else.

I asked him last night, what says "I love you" the most. He said, affection. Hugs, kisses, hand holding, etc... He asked me the same question. Honestly, I said being kind to me and the kids.

So, the question is....If the top EN's aren't reviving the love, then could the elimination of LB's do it?

I found this......"If either you or your spouse is in the State of Withdrawal, you have created emotional defenses and will not let the other spouse meet your emotional needs. It's only when you overcome Love Busters that the emotional barrier is removed, and you allow each other to meet your emotional needs. So if either of you are in the state of Withdrawal, the Love Busters should be eliminated before trying to meet that spouse's emotional needs."

Am I still in withdrawal? I feel like we are in conflict though.

If you're in the state of conflict that's better than withdrawal. Dr. Harley says to bring a spouse out of withdrawal is more difficult than the state of conflict.

How much UA time are you getting? What are you doing during your UA time?

UA close to 15 hours. Usually, go to the bedroom at 9 or 10 to talk and SF. We go out to eat and run errands(groceries, Lowes etc...) once a week or so. We've been doing honey-do's together outside on the weekends. Went to dinner and a concert a couple of weeks ago. We'll talk on the phone while he's at work driving to meetings. We sit around and talk at home.

Are you enthusiastic about these recreational activities?

I would try to get more UA time out of the house doing fun, recreational type stuff. Go on more romantic dates! With the ages of your kids, baby sitting shouldn't be an issue anymore, so take advantage of it. Going shopping, running errands, and taking care of to-do lists is okay, but it doesn't sound very romantic. Are you meeting the 4 intimate EN's while you are doing these activities?

I know this is one of the biggest issues in my M. We just don't get enough quality UA time. The 4 intimate EN's are not being adequately met. For us, baby sitting is the biggest issue. My H and I only get 4-5 hours of UA time out of the house each week and it just isn't enough.

These rec activities are POJA'd. It's win/win. SF isn't desired yet, just willing. Compared to my aversion for many years, my enthusiasm for SF has improved greatly.

I'm enthusiastic about working around the house with him. I love that. Yes, enthusiastic about going to Lowes. Love that place too. Not as enthusiastic about going out to dinner anymore. I eat grain-free, sugar-free....takes most of the fun out of eating. Pretty limited on eateries. But, I gotta eat. I do enjoy his company and conversation.

Have these helped?
How to Overcome Sexual Aversion
How to Meet the Emotional Need for Sexual Fulfillment (Part 1)

Have you ever emailed the Harleys?

Yes, I emailed them and talked to Joyce. We didn't talk about the aversion. We talked about UA time, and DH's long commute.

I did the aversion exercises for weeks and they did help the situation. The second link tells the low-drive spouse to just increase frequency to increase desire. BTDT. Did fake it tell ya make for years. I think it drove me into the aversion. Forcing myself to make love when I didn't want to. I was repulsed and would cry during and after on most occasions.

I'm willing, but honestly I've only been horny maybe 10 times my whole life.

Yes, we hold hands and kiss and hug while we're out, we talk, sometimes that night when we get home we make love.

I might be accused of navel grazing but I think it matters.

I asked myself....What kind of stuff did we do together when we started dating? We knew each for 9 months before we married. The first three months, we lived 300 miles apart and saw each other every two weeks. We usually went out to eat, dancing at the Hall, or played cards with friends. The next three months, he lived with my mom and me. We did the same stuff then too. He wanted to move back to his hometown. I told him, I wasn't following him all over the state of Texas. I didn't want him to move away. He said, "Well, let's get married?" I said, OK. He moved back to his hometown, 300 miles away. We hardly saw each other during that time.

We got married. It was fun. We usually went out to eat, saw movies, did home projects, played cards with friends, go fishing. We went on a couple of vacations. We pretty much did the same things then, that we do now. We've never been the romantic type. Foo-Foo stuff doesn't appeal to either of us.

I asked myself...What did I love about him? Truly, he was very kind and nice to me. He was HOT! 100 lbs lighter. He doesn't resemble the man I loved.

I have prayed for years to be "in love" with him. To desire him. Crave him. We both want that kind of marriage. I can't fall in love with him, if he can't meet my needs. He can't meet my needs if I don't know what they are.

Well, based on this, I would venture to say one of them might be physical attractiveness. And if your H has gained 100 lbs. since you got married, he might better be able to meet that need if he lost some weight.

Perhaps the two of you could exercise together. My H and I love going for long walks. Tonight, we walked to a shopping center about a mile and a half away from where we live, ate a healthy dinner, then walked back home. I know many couples also enjoy working out at the gym together (we don't since we can't afford a gym membership).

Also, have you taken the Recreational Companionship questionnaire? That helped my H and I come up with some new and creative ideas for our dates.

I don't think we did the RCQ. We should.

I KNOW the weight has affected our sex life. He hasn't tried to lose it. I've asked him to walk with me, he declines. He won't change his diet. He knows the weight is an issue, I included it on the ENQ.

Tell us what you think.

Radio Clip

Thanks for the clip, Brain. I have done what the Harley's suggest. DH gets regular checkups, so he isn't inclined to lose weight for his health. All of his numbers are fine.

I haven't come right out and asked him to lose weight. I've mentioned that I would prefer that he was closer to the size he was when we married (200 lbs).

I cook healthy meals. I don't buy junk food. He eats out a lot though. He will buy junk food and bring it home.

Could his LB's and weight gain be why the "in love" feeling haven't returned? Our UA is fun and pleasant. He's just not very fun or pleasant the rest of the time.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? How is he the rest of the time?

During dedicated UA time, we are on "good behavior". We've only had one fight while on UA time. In "real life" he is dry, critical, sarcastic, and loud.....not too pleasant. He has admitted to being this way. I'm not just giving my opinion.

The other night when I told him that "being kind" showed me he loved me, he said it's a challenge for him. I ask him why? He said, he's bitter. He didn't say why.

Is he open to MB?

Can you two start working out together?

Says he's bitter? Do you think he's depressed?

Tenancious,

You don't have a SF aversion. You don't have romantic feelings for your hubby.

He's not meeting your needs and he's LB'ing you most of the time.

He's no longer physically attractive to you. He refuses to do much about it.

He's bitter except when you have dedicated time to "be kind". That does nothing to make you feel attracted to him. He can be a saint for allotted UA time but if he goes back to being bitter, angry, sarcastic afterwards he undoes any good he did during your dedicated time.

I'm not sure you asking him to meet your needs is working. He seems fixed in his ways which means he doesn't see what's in it for him to change. Sounds like a good time to get him involved in this program with a coach who can explain just what it is that is in it for him.

ooooooooooo

Did you ask him why he is "bitter"?
I think it is very important to press him on this issue.
That is not some throw-away comment. That was the tip of some "radical honesty" ice berg .... Tell H you appreciate his honesty about his bitterness. Tell him you need to know what has caused this bitterness.
Ask this question in the middle of a long walk. That way, he cannot physically go to another room to escape.

Find out!

PS ..... Once he explains his bitterness, be sure to say "Thank you for being honest" .... especially if what he tells you is unflattering about you.

Thanks...Brain, MrA and Pep for responding.

He is familiar with MB principles. We did the LBQ and EQN over a year ago. I think I'm out of withdrawal.

Pep, I asked him why he is bitter. He said, he didn't know. But, my heart tells me it's because I haven't met his needs of affection and SF properly; for years, sadly. We don't live in a sexless marriage. But, it's not passionate at all. No one likes mercy sex.

Not long ago, he had a conversation about how we would conduct our single lives, if one of us died. I said, I would stay single, I wouldn't date until the kids were grown. That I would focus my energy on raising them. He said, he would date and wouldn't be celibate. He said, "I won't bring "them" back to the house, but I'm gonna be getting "some". This weekend, our daughter asked why our male cat is getting skinny. I said, He's out tom cattin'. DH says, "Oh man, that must be "the life". I looked at him, and said, "Really, you want to be whoring around?" It hurt. But, it tells me clearly he isn't satisfied.

I MUST fall in love with my husband. But, I don't know what to do.

He worked real hard at avoiding LB's and being kind for a couple of months. Things were better. SF wasn't so bland. I felt warmer toward him. When things got stressful and recovery didn't happen, he gave up.

We need perspective. If we did MB perfectly, how long before the love comes back?

How firm should I be about the weight? About the LB's?

About a month ago, we had a conversation about complaining. He had Lb'd me. Then got mad because I asked him not to do that particular thing anymore. I asked him, "How do you feel when I complain?" He said, "Not sure." I told him, to please tell me when I LB him.

Pep, I will ask about the bitterness.

This is a pretty good example of what not to do when your spouse is RH and says something you don't appreciate. Punishment (sarcasm) for RH will result in less RH.

What kind of wife do you want to be?

What would have been a better response?

Should I be that radically honest about his weight and LB's?

I want to be fun, kind, loving and dependable wife.

I had to learn this myself, so --- please do not feel I am picking on you.
When is sarcasm ever useful for a marriage?
Never. I had a bad habit of sarcasm. Every time I did this, it was a sharp cut to my H.
The purpose of POJA is to negotiate win/win solutions.

I really believe this is something so key to the development of your R. You aren't honest with him about why you don't find him attractive. That if he lost XX pounds and lost his negative behavior you'd be so much more attracted to him he'd have something that would make that cat jealous.


You had a chance to employ Radical Honesty.

I wouldn't fire off a reply right away in that moment. I'd wait until you could set the stage for a serious talk. Tell him you'd like to talk and ask him when would be a good time to have this talk. Follow the rules of good conversation and good negotiation.

�I was hurt when I heard your comment about the cat. But I want you to know I hear you and I get it. It is your way of trying to tell me something. You�re missing something in your life. You probably feel like you�ve never had it. I really wish I could make you happy. I�d love to make you happy. I would love it if you felt you could be open and honest with me in regards to how I�m doing to make you happy.

I�m missing something too and I think we�re stuck in a catch 22. But there is a way around it and it starts with us being radically honest with each other while remaining respectful and cooperative. I�m going to try to do better but I need you to be honest about what you need. �

Tenacious. I don�t know your H but if he�s like most guys if we heard of a way we�d be able to get our #1 EN met in a way we never thought we�d see we�d move mountains to make it happen. But ya know, we know (or think we know) it�s never gonna happen. Because time has proven again and again it won�t. So our poor behavior continues (BTDT).

Someone has to break the cycle. Shake it up. Establish the new bar that is your M. I say it is time to set some goals for your M:
1). Meet your H�s needs. You know his needs but what about the logistics of those ENs? Ask him to be specific about the number of times he needs to you????

Let him know you�re stepping up and then do it. Make it happen.
2). Start being more radically honest about what his actions and lack of action does to your desire to continue doing #1. Help him eliminate his LBs and help him understand your ENs. Be sure he understands these things directly correlate to your ability to continue doing #1. Reward good behavior, communicate respectfully his bad behavior.


There is a better way to help him eliminate his LBs. Instead of telling him what not to do tell him what you would like. And NO demands.

�I don�t like it when you are bitter. Stop it�. Negative and Demanding.
How about:
�I really love it when you make pleasant comments. It reassures me you are a good man, it makes it fun to be around you and it makes me feel attracted to you.� Positive and points him down the path of what you need to be attracted to him.

If you say these kinds of things after you�ve been meeting his ENs he�ll get it. He�ll see the connection and he�ll step up.

I'm always leery of questions like this.


1. I don't know anyone who does MB perfectly.
2. I think his love for you will return more quickly than yours for him. Are you OK with that?
3. Once my H was deeply in love with me, he started making love deposits in my 'bank' like he never did before. I think this is because as women, we think too much. Men just like having their needs met. Once that happens, they usually don't bother asking "Why is she doing this now?". Us? We tend to analyze things to death. "How long will this last this time?" "Is he doing nice things for the right reasons?" .... Just stop over-thinking.

No arguments. Nothing is worth an argument.

I need help navigating a situation.

A little back story. DH's cousin moved in two doors down. He lives with DH's mom. Newly single dad with three little kids. DH, MIL, and I are supporting him with childcare during this time. Last weekend, one son had pneumonia. Last night, cousin calls at 930 says he needs to take another son to the ER with possible pneumonia. He asks if I can watch the other two kids. I say yes, I'll be over there shortly. I will stay at MIL's house, while he takes other son to the doctor. The ONLY reason I said this was because I would be the only one dealing with the situation. These little kids have never stayed with us. And they have been sick. I was trying to avoid some fit-throwing and stress by allowing them to sleep in their own beds. When the cousin got home from the hospital, I would walk back home.

I tell DH what's going on. He agrees that we should watch the kids. But, he is markedly angrily about it. I ask him, What do you want to do? He says, I don't know. I said, Whoa, backup we need to POJA this. We brainstorm options. We agree, the kids should come to our house instead and sleep on the blow-up mattress. Cousin agrees, the kids come down. Everything works out beautifully they go right to sleep.

I come back to our room. He is still mad. I ask him what is wrong? He asks, Did I want to sleep in our bed last night? I said, Yes, I want to sleep in my own bed. I ask him, Did you hear the part apart your cousin taking the son to the ER? Did you know I would be with the other two kids and not your cousin? He said, Yes to both. He said, All he heard was cousin needs my wife to sleep down there and she says yes. I asked again, You do understand he wasn't going to be there right? He said, Yes.

What do I do now. POJA keeping the kids? Not allow the cousin at our home? Clarify that, yes, my DH actually has a concern about the cousin and me?

This has NEVER happened before. This is radical honesty from my DH.

Do you know what Dr. Harley says about spending the night apart? He says never do it.

You should've negotiated this with your husband BEFORE agreeing to spend the night at your cousins house. You made an agreement without taking his feelings into account, and then had to scramble around to try to pick up the pieces.

How's your UA?

From my perspective, our UA is fine. We had a nice dinner out Saturday night. That was about five hours. I am satisfied with our conversations. He'll call me during the day, while he is driving to meetings or on his way home. He is working a lot less. Only commuting to the downtown office three days a week. He is at home so much more now.

My emotional needs barometer is broken. I don't need anything from him. I am satisfied with what we are doing. I don't need undivided, uninterrupted time. I count any interaction as UA. It has value to me. I makes love deposits. I read something on another thread, about UA being like painting a picture. But, if there are LB's everywhere, it's like painting on thin air.

He is not satisfied though. I asked him "How's our UA?" He said, "What UA?" He hasn't approached me for SF. Because he doesn't want to pressure me. But, yet he is annoyed with me because he said he is waiting on me. Even though, I've told him I will not initiate. Women who have no desire and are not in love are not going to initiate SF.

He doesn't count our cell phone convo because it isn't uninterrupted. He does count our date Saturday though. He doesn't count retiring to the bedroom at night because it isn't uninterrupted. What we are doing isn't making love deposits for him.

But, neither of us are enthusiastic about being out of the house 20 hours a week. Neither of us remember a lot of undivided attention when we were dating. Heck, we were separated for 6 of the 9 months before getting married.

I asked him if he still has "in love, romantic feelings" for me. He said yes.

Your UA is not fine.

I will concede that our UA isn't MB approved. But, my not initiating SF isn't connected to our lack of UA. I've never initiated SF. Even when I was "in love" and connected to him.

I've always been willing. He's never gone very long without.

There's your problem.

1) Work on improving your UA. Look in your local paper and PoJA some activities.

2) "Initiating" SF, from your side, can be as simple as sending a flirty/suggestive text, or direct as "I want you." Once you communicate that, see where it goes. You could also schedule your SF, and plan around/leading up to that.

Schedule SF. You two sitting around waiting for someone to initiate is a silly game that goes nowhere except to create more separation between you. Plan it out. Then follow through. No one needs to initiate. You need to have that quality time together.

HHH and Mr A, thank you both for your help.

DH and I have talked quite a bit over the past couple of days. He is reluctant to schedule SF. He said, he doesn't want to have SF when he isn't meeting my needs and I have no desire for it.

I few pages ago, I expressed that I don't know what my needs are anymore. Engaging in the 4 top EN's is not creating romantic feelings. While they are not unpleasant, they are not getting the "job done." I don't think I'm in withdrawal. Detached, yes. Not "in love" yes. Honestly, I feel dead inside. I don't crave the top EN's.

Before you all beat me with a wet noodle, I understand that presently we are not doing UA correctly. Let me explain. We did 4/4 hour dates out of the house for a couple of weeks. Neither of us liked it. It was unpleasant and stressful. Affection couldn't happen because we don't like PDA. We didn't like our kids eating dinner alone. We didn't like our youngest going to bed without goodnight hugs and kisses. SF usually didn't happen because it was so late when we got home, we were too tired. So we quit doing that.

There was a time many years ago, that we scheduled SF. I adopted the "fake it, til you make it" attitude. It landed me in the middle of a nasty SF aversion. DH showed up on SF nights. That was a real bad time for us. Lots of problems, he was still gaming.

Neither of us want me retreating into the aversion mindset.

We are comfortable being out of the house one day or night a week for 5 hours. I am willing to meet his EN's. We had a RADICALLY honest conversation about honesty and LB's. I asked him to please reconsider losing weight. He said, OK. I don't want to hurt his feelings.

Of course it's not getting the job done. You are not giving the hours needed in order for it to get the job done.


A couple of weeks is not long enough. You've made excuses.

An aversion will not happen if you are following POUA and POJA.

Then get comfortable with a less than happy marriage. You cannot cherry pick or modify this program and expect it to work.

ok

I would like you to step out for a second, and think about your attempt at dates;


Both of you are in a state of either withdrawal, or conflict. You are both aware that there are problems in the marriage. You are both aware that you are doing this to "fix the marriage."


While you are in states of withdrawal and conflict, UA time is going to seem unattractive, stressful. That is why it is EVEN MORE important to follow through with it, and remember to make it MUTUALLY ENJOYABLE.

In fact, it would be even better for the two of you to escape for a week or two with JUST THE TWO OF YOU, and to share some EXCITING experiences, as that will really boost your LB$ balances.

*ETA*


Affection; tell your husband to read my screen name.

I am at the end of my rope. I've lost all self respect. I'm having sex with my husband out of fear. I'm a hypocrite. Teaching my daughter how and when is an appropriate time for sex. If she came to me and said she was having sex just keep her man from being mad at her or leaving her. I would be livid. Sex should be for love...not fear.

How can I heal my marriage? I don't know what my needs are, therefore he can't meet them. When I bring up his LB's, he says, "Well, dammit I can't do anything right, I might as well just stop talking." He said, he wants my desires to line up with his desires. I can't come out of withdrawal. He hates conflict.

I know you guys say it's UA. That's not the problem. We've spent much more time together since he changed jobs in February. We include the four EN's. Nada, zip....I'm not in love.

Let's be honest. I feel like a whore.

I know you say UA is not the problem but how much UA time have you had?

What are his lovebusters?

UA will not accomplish anything if he refuses to do anything about his love busters.

Steve Harley told me not to expect big trumpet fanfares and celebrations for eliminating love busters - after all, who goes around bragging that they don't abuse their wife any more? He is whining when you bring up his love busters, whining that you should admire him for all the good he does do, and not realizing that the love busters ruin it. You can't fill a bucket when you are drilling holes in it every day, and that's what love busters are. They BUST the love.

If he will not take this problem seriously, then there really is no hope - love busters that aren't dealt with will destroy a marriage.

You mention you are in withdrawal - that's because of his love busters. UA will not fix that.

You mention you don't know what your emotional needs are - that's a sign of withdrawal. Again, withdrawal is caused by love busters.

"he wants my desires to line up with his desires" - that's not really a very realistic expectation. Men and women typically don't desire the same things. That's why it's necessary to negotiate together to find a lifestyle that is pleasing to you both. It involves a lot of investigating and getting to know each other. Demanding that your partner desire what you desire short circuits and prevents that process.

BTW, sex won't fix this. Dr. Harley typically tells men that they can have fights, or sex, but not both. Meeting his sexual needs will not cause him to take your complaints about his love busters seriously.

Dr. Harley defines fighting as those three abusive love busting behaviors: demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts. If he is engaged in ANY of these, you should probably not be meeting his sexual needs.

Why are you having unwilling sex? You know PoJA does not allow for sacrifices. Any. At all.

All through this thread you've made this claim that you're "willing" - not exactly deisrous but you claimed you were willing.

I didn't buy it.

You weren't being honest, were you?

If a woman is not desirous, but is willing it's because she's getting some needs met, like affection. You didn't even have any intimate needs on your list.

Just like the weight thing, you aren't honest with your husband until your uneasiness is a full blown crisis.

Rewarding lovebusting with sex is nuts. If he lovebusts and makes you feel fear, he should know you won't stand for it.

He should also put his patient hat on and realise there isn't going to be any sex until it is good for you.

We get the 15 hours. Sometimes more. We don't do the four/four hour dates. We are more mindful now. Good UA for us, is dinner out and a trip to Lowes, sitting around the pool or firepit talking. Laying in bed talking, making plans, sharing our dreams and goals.

We tried the romantic, going out several times a week. Honestly, it wasn't fun. It was forced. Neither of us were relaxed or pleasant.

Generally, DJ's and AO's. Specifically, he sighs, grimaces, says "really"?, "Oh, ok?". He just has "a way" about him. He minimizes, mocks, and shames. Not, just me, but the kids too. It's a kick to the gut everytime. The AO's are usually directed at the kids, along with an SD. He's just not nice most of the time.

I've been incredibly dishonest. I'm afraid of his disapproval. I'm only willing to have sex because I don't want to lose my husband. It is easier to just change myself, than to be honest with him. He doesn't like needy people. Many years ago, I would ask for this or that. A back rub, help moving something, normal stuff like....."Hey, would you mind doing blank." No, I don't want to. Or he would do it, but have nasty attitude about it. So, I stopped asking him for stuff. Stopped asking for my needs to be met. I lowered my expectations to zero because that's the level he was enthusiastic about. What could I do? Expecting something different was insanity. The "real" me went into withdrawal years ago. I don't remember who she is, I don't remember what she's like.

I've been very sick the past two weeks. He came to me wanting sex. I declined three times because I was coughing, snotty and feverish. Not up for close intimate contact. He would sigh, huff and leave or just roll over. Well, the night before last we got into bed, I said, "We should probably have sex tonight, I'm expecting my period....I don't want you to be mad at me." The next morning, it dawned on me...what I'd said. I was being radically honest with him, and didn't realize it. I was physically shaken at the realization that I only have sex out of fear. Fear of his reaction when he finds out I started my period, or I'm sick. I have sex so he won't leave us.

I don't know what to do.

The reason UA is not working is because of his AOs and DJs. As markos said earlier, he can't fill a bucket if he's punching holes in it at the same time. This is probably the same reason that you do not enjoy going out on dates with him.

What he's doing to you is abuse. If he is not willing to stop this abuse, you need to prepare for a separation for your own health and sanity.

Please read:
When to Call it Quits part 1
When to Call it Quits part 2
What to do with an Angry Husband

Until he is willing to stop abusing you with his lovebusters, you should not be trying to meet his emotional needs. Stop having sex with him until he is willing to protect you from himself.

I'm scared, Prisca.

If you don't take the necessary steps to make things change, it'll never get better. It will very likely only get worse.

I'm scared, Prisca.

Hi! I know how scary the thought of separating can be.
I want you to take this one step at a time. Go to information gathering stage.
Talk to a lawyer. Talking to one doesn't =divorce but trust me, you need to get and know the information they can give you as to your rights, what to expect etc.

Also, call your local abuse shelter. I know that they might not be able to give you all their resources but they know a ton, can direct you to all kinds of people you will need and have awesome counselors to help women out who are scared. (They also usually know some great lawyers) You just might find out how much in common you have with other women.(Who are having sex with their husbands because of fear and many other things)
Just do it. Its a phone call and they won't bite!

After information gathering, think about it in your head with all that you have learned of how you CAN do this, what it would look like etc.

Gathering information WILL help you feel better, I promise! It is step one! You Can do that.

So breath, and go gather information!!!

How do I communicate this to him? He will be very upset. He might stop talking to me.

I think the real difficulty is communicating it to you, Tenacious.

He will make whatever decision he is going to make. You need to protect yourself and stop trying to make him straighten out. You can't do it. If he is not interested in ending his abuse and neglect in order to have a good marriage with you, then Dr. Harley would advise you to prepare for a separation as a last resort. Don't communicate it to him - just do it, as a necessary step to protect yourself. When you separate you can leave him a letter letting him know that you are only willing to reconcile if he eliminates his abusive behaviors and stops neglecting you. If he chooses to do so, that is fantastic! If not, then you have protected yourself from a lifetime of abuse and unhappiness.

You win either way.

Stop talking to him and take action.

Please listen to this radio show every day. Start changing your life.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/

Sex won't fix this, and talking to him won't fix this.

Angry Outbursts #1

We are going to talk tonight. He told me I had all day to make a list of the LB's I'm accusing him of. And a list of my EN's. I emailed these to him, telling him this is a starting point.

I think I'm actually pretty high needs. My lovebank is at -1000. It may take months to reach the threshold of romantic love. If you don't meet my needs and continue to lovebust, we won't get there.

Affection: The nonsexual expression of care through words, cards, gifts, hugs, kisses, and courtesies.

Back rubs x2, foot rubs x1, many kind words, text me to let me know when you will be home, listen to MB radio, never allow me to sacrifice so you gain.

Sex: weekly on a scheduled day, preferable on Wednesday. If I'm sick, please take that into consideration. Please consider if you have done an exceptional job at need meeting the prior 6 days. Have you lovebusted me the prior 6 days. If you have, don't expect sex. I won't be emotionally connected to you, thus sex will be bad. No more bad sex.

Intimate conversation: Talk to me while I cook, sit with me during dinner. If you see me eating, sit with me.

Rec Companionship: Go out to eat weekly, preferably Friday night.

Honesty and openness: poja all decisions

Physical attractiveness: make a plan to lose weight and do it

Financial support: make a budget with me and do it

Domestic support: make a plan to finish and/or maintain our home and do it

Family commitment: spend more time talking to our children, emotionally connect with each of them daily

Admiration: not really necessary


If I say...You LB'd me, then you say no I didn't or OMGosh I can't do anything right, I'll just shut up then. That's an LB.

disrespectful judgments: attempts by your spouse to change your attitudes, beliefs, and behavior by trying to force you into his or her way of thinking.

sighs, grimaces, oh really?, yeah, right?, You should have....., dismissing, mocking, shaming, belittling, sarcasm, that under-current of disapproval and judgment.

selfish demands: ask us....don't tell us to do something

angry outbursts: yelling at the kids

dishonesty: you seem pretty honest

annoying habits: not finishing projects

independent behavior: putting work before us

One thing I know he will ask...."Well, when are you going to meet my needs?" Should I reach the romantic threshold to have sex? He's gonna want to timeline.

How does one deal with frustration and disappointment without lovebusting?

I feel like sighs, and rolling over in the bed, turning away from me in a huff, walking into the house and immediately having look of disgust are DJs.

He thinks they are his legitimate expressions of disappointment and frustration.

Text today from me "You would love me more if I kept the house clean?"

His reply, " Nope. You took that completely wrong. It wasn't about love it was about helping me to have a better attitude and make it easier for me NOT to love bust. I know that is my responsibility solely, but I was merely trying to point out that it would help me."

So, is he saying...If you would just do what I ask you to do, I wouldn't be upset, thus I wouldn't LB?

You say "That makes me feel frustrated and disappointed". In other words, you address your own reactions directly and do not try to frame them into your suppositions of the other person's perspective.

Is he still refusing to do anything about his love busters?

Refusing? No, not refusing. Just having a hard time identifying them. There was one recent episode of refusal though. Last weekend, he was angrily cleaning up the kitchen. I got a cup of coffee and asked him what he was gonna to that day. He snapped, "You're looking at it!" I said whoa, Don't take it out on me. Don't do it if you don't want to. Have DD do it, it's her chore. I said, You're being disrespectful to me. He said, "Well, I feel disrespected!" He said, He was sorry, but in an angry voice of frustration. I got dressed and spent the day outside alone.

I've come to realize that I am very sensitive to his reactions. I've asked him to handle me with extraordinary care, he struggles with that.

He has made progess. I'd say 75% better. But lovebusters seem to affect me more negatively exponentially than does UA positively. Does that make sense? He gets a bigger bang for his buck when he treats me well.

We had a serious family discussion a couple of months ago, none of us are doing very well right now. Eldest DD started anti-depressants and therapy. I'm seriously depressed too (terrible thought-life right now).

We're in such a funk. I know the depression is affecting how I react to DH too.

I'm terribly dissatisfied with every aspect of my life right now.

How does he respond on a regular basis when you tell him he is lovebusting you? If he doesn't respond with a "Thank you for telling me," but instead tries to debate you, or tell you that you don't understand, or tell you that you misunderstood or took something out of context, or that you are wrong, then he really is REFUSING to do anything about his lovebusters.

Email from DH

This is easier for me to type than texting so here goes�
What I mean about the house is that just like me being skinny will not make you love me more but will help you desire me and help you meet my needs, me coming home to a nice, clean house will not make me love you more but it does help me to have a better attitude around the house which in turn helps me meet your needs.
Another thing it does is allows us all to have more time to spend together in the evenings when I get home. If supper is done and kids are done with school, we have all evening to spend with them and then time just for us after.
I want that and I need that and I think you do too.
Think about it from my perspective; I get up early every morning and go to work for all of us, get my work done and come home.
How would you guys feel if I just slept till I wanted to get up then got up and maybe went to work at noon and still had the same work to get done so I had to be gone till almost bedtime, grabbed a shower and went to bed and had no time to spend with you guys.

That is how I feel when I get home and all of that is still left to do.
Supper is not that big a deal because like you said before, we can do that together and I am happy to but there needs to be a plan and things need to be thawed out and ready to be cooked so we are not doing that until bedtime.

I know you don�t want to be solely responsible for the kids doing their work but you are there with them during the day and I am not. That is the bottom line and these are the roles we both agreed on once we had kids: I would work and you would be home with the kids.

Your husband is refusing to follow the POJA with you.
I have not read your thread but as a general rule, you can't have a loving fulfilling marriage if the POJA is not followed.

Your husband may be unwilling to follow the POJA.

In such cases, Dr. Harley often encourages spouses to try to get their "reluctant spouses" on board with MB principles.
You may need to try to persuade him to follow MB principles over time but if he continually resists the POJA you may need to separate from him.

Tenacious,

Are you being treated for your depression?

No, I'm not. I've been treated for depression at least six times. The last time, I couldn't tolerate the side effects. I basically used affirmations, prayer, exercise and diet last time.

Are you in any kind of counseling? I have been reading through your thread and one thing caught my attention and I can't seem to shake it. You said that you feel dead inside. I am concerned about you.

The main reason she is depressed is because of the relationship with her husband. As long as he lovebusts her and refuses to follow POJA, she will remain depressed.

No counseling. No one knows what's going on. I do feel dead inside. I'm drawing from an empty well.

I don't know what to do. I can't leave him. I've been a homeschooling mom for 17 years. I didn't finish my degree. I have no idea what I would do. My kids would be devastated if we divorced. It's not an option.

I don't have to be in love with him to live with him. We could live as room-mates possibly, but he's not going without sex for the rest of his life. He must change, so I can fall in love with him.

PS Redheadedlady...I would never hurt myself or my kids, I love them too much. They need their mama.

Your words were my words some years ago. I was a stay-at-home mother for the most part, hadn't completed my degree, lived overseas, and had no real verifiable job skills to sell at a good price to employers.

You don't have to separate right away. First figure out how you can obtain job skills. Can you start working on your degree? Because of my H's first affair and the sad state of marriage, I went back to school at age 38 and at 42 finally earned a Bachelor's degree in Business Management with an emphasis in Finance. It not only gave me valuable job skills but it vastly improved confidence in myself and my abilities in coping with life.

And even if your H totally turns around and becomes the man you have always wanted, it's a really good idea for you to figure out a way to be "untrapped." It sounds like you are staying simply because you have few options. I get that. But it's a tough place to be emotionally.

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you would ever harm yourself or your kids. I am new to this site and I should not have said anything.

Tenacious, he seems to EXPECT sex. As though it's your job.

When you said you didn't want to make him mad, he should have held and consoled you and told you to never 'put out '

Isn't it worth looking into what financial support you would get in a a D? Or do you want to be supported in return for sex?

Thank you, I'm considering these options now. I think I could get a two year degree in nursing. I think that would be enough to be self sufficient. As a homeschooler, I am a life long learner.

I took no offense to your comment. No worries!

For 23 years, yes he expected sex. Last November, I realized I was having sex with him out of fear. I put a stop to it. I told him no more "bad" sex. And yes, he was very sorry and consoled me and accepted it. I only do it, if I want to. But, I still struggle with it because I'm not in love with him. I still carry the shame of having sex for years under negative emotions. I was disgusted by my bodies reaction to stimuli. I could perform, but it was gut-wrenching.

I have struggled with feeling like a whore. Staying married, doing my "wifely" duty in exchange for support. I honestly thought that was how marriage worked, until I found MB. Now, I know. My husband knows too. But, he is struggling to be what I need in order to be attracted to him.

I think it would be a sin to divorce. I can't justify divorcing because I'm unhappy.

I'll work on LBs, and POJA everything. Even my working and homeschooling needs to be looked at again.

I need to put myself back on the to-list.

I asked him last week, "If he remembers how he treated me those first few years of marriage?" He said yes, but that was when I had you all to myself. I don't know what that statement means.

Separation doesn't always mean divorce.

But you will divorce because of unhappiness no matter what you believe. Marriage IS happiness. If you remain unhappy the force of your emotions/his emotions will cause a divorce. Or you will end up with a false marriage where you put on a front but no vows are upheld. So you won't be married if that happens, you will be divorced in all but name and just be pretending to be married.

Concluding you have to stay in an unhappy marriage is insane. It's the sacificial sex all over again. Reluctant love and duty is no different, no less abusive, than reluctant sex. But instead of proffering up your body you are giving up your soul.

Somewhere along the line you came to believe you don't matter. You came to believe what matters is you sucking up unhappiness if you have to for the sake of duty and appearances. That is not marriage; it is an insult to true marriage.




He means before the children were born and you became a dutiful wife instead of his partner.

I know you aren't saying it verbally but your actions say a great deal. Just think of the message this stiff upper lip sends him, though:

You: "I am willing to remain married to you no matter how unhappy you make me"

Him: "Gee thanks."

He can't win you, or feel proud of doing so, because you are just a dutiful wife who doesn't need to be won. Your bar is so low you are unwinnable. You're just giving yourself away for free. You are like one of those hook-a-ducks at the fair that even the toddlers can win. For less than two bucks.

I really struggle to understand how a woman could or would make herself so lowly and undervalued. I grew up in a home where my mother passionately loved my father and so, demanded that he passionately loved her. She doesn't stay with him out of duty, she's only interested in a real marriage.

In fact she packed her bags and showed up at my house one time a few years back over just one, rare, incident of IB. After nearly 40 years of a tender, laughter-filled and romantic marriage (You'd hear them laugh every night as they went to bed. Then you would, um, hear other stuff.)

She was outta there over one incident. Even when he rushed over panicked to bring her back she refused to leave and stayed the night because not being considered tenderly and passionately is intolerable to her. We, her children, all backed her up too because we know she does this out of love and to keep her marriage sacred. Her standards are what made my parent's marriage a romantic one. My father knows he has to work hard to win her.

He's proud that he lives up to her high standards and keeps her happy. Is your H proud of how happy he makes you? Is he proud of how he can keep you?

We have made soooo much progress! The LB's are NO LONGER tolerated. We poja everything. So....I emailed the show, at my husband's request, the following questions. He wanted me to ask ya'll too.

We have three dogs ( two of which he wanted) and several cats (all strays that became part of the family, no one really sought out cats) that have been allowed to come in the house in the past; this is not something we poja'ed. My husband doesn't want our cats and dogs in the house. I do. He feels it is a lovebuster when he gets home and the pets are in the house. As an example, he came home this morning from running errands and the pets were in the house and food was on the floor. This made him angry. The way he expressed this anger was with silence. He is attempting to control his anger by leaving the situation and not saying dj's or angry things. We've negotiated to the point where we both agree the pets can be in the house when he isn't at home. We agree there will be no food or water set out within the house for the pets. The problem is....who puts the pets out when my husband comes home. He thinks, I should put them out because I'm the one who wants them inside. I think, he should put them out because he is the one who wants them outside. Also, how do we poja pets on the furniture and bed? I like to snuggle with my pets. My husband thinks it's gross and unsanitary.

My husband isn't enthusiastic about the pets being in the house, IF HE has to put them out or clean up after them. What is the default position here? It's not totally outside pets and it's not totally inside pets either.

The pets do not come into the house at all until you can agree on who puts them out. They do not get on the furniture at all until you can agree on how. Keep brainstorming ideas until a solution is found that makes you both happy. It looks like you have tied yourselves to one of two options, your way or his way. But there are more than just those two ways. It's cliche, but think outside the box. Keep brainstorming.

Thanks, Prisca. We're working hard not to LB and to follow the poja. I heard a radio show a while back where the husband and wife were trying to poja the kitchen trash can. Dr. H said the default position was a third position. In this case, the trash went to the garage, until they could make an enthusiastic decision. I thought, we needed to find a third position; not his or mine. If the pets do not come into the house until we agree, by default, he gets his way. Right? Also, I was thinking about the domestic support list, Dr H have couples do. Make the list of what you want done around the house and you do your own list. I thought, if he wants the pets out he should be the one that does it. I'm not going to ask him to let the pets in when he leaves in the morning. Are these two ideas wrong?

We are brainstorming. He suggested that the kids could be asked to put the pets out. Also, he might be agreeable to my poodle being on my side of the bed, if I bathe her more often. Both of those are on the table.

And, if the pets DO come in the house before some kind of agreement is made, then you are gaining at your husband's expense.... right?

In fact, going back;


It sounds like there was agreement at two dogs, and another dog and several cats have been added without POJA. And then, part of what would add to enthusiastic agreement for your husband was that they were not indoor animals. Then, when he gave some room for negotiation (enthusiatic or otherwise) his condition for them not being inside (to which the default is; not at all) was that they be let out. This was countered with: then HE needs to put them out.

This does not sound like pleasant negotiation with the goal of enthusastic agreement.

Actually, the negotiation has been pleasant and the goal is enthusiastic agreement. He told me (after years of allowing pets in the house) no more pets in the house. That's not poja, that's a demand. That would be him gaining at my expense.

All of the pets were bought or "not shot" (stray cats) long before we heard of the poja. I reluctantly agreed on the first two dogs. He reluctantly agreed on my poodle. The cats show up pregnant, have litters. We live out in the county. No animal control. Animal control out in the country, is a shotgun. When the kittens are old enough we spay or neuter them. Some stay, some run away, some are shot by neighbors, I'm sure.

Nonetheless, he had never demanded "no pets in the house" until recently. I understand his reasons. But, we need to find a win/win. The final decision cannot be "no pets in the house" or "pets in the house whenever, wherever."

Assuming you each have good will toward each other, meaning each of you wants the other to win, then you know neither of you should gain at the others expense.

Every time your H comes home to find the animals in the house, it's a love buster for him. Good will toward your H would mean you wouldn't want to be cause of his unhappiness. (Of course, he shouldn't want to be the cause of your unhappiness either.) If he's okay with the notion of the animals in the house, but he would like for you to put out the pets before he comes home, then why not give that solution a trial period to see if it works for both of you?

A selfish demand is when one spouse forces the other to do something. Your husband is not making a selfish demand when he insists that he doesn't want the animals in the house any longer. The default position is that the animals are outside. As long as the animals are outside, you can still enjoy their company outside, but your H doesn't have to face them when he comes indoors. He sees it as a love buster that you want the animals in the house in spite of his desire to come home to a house without animals.

While the animals are outside, your and your H can negotiate. Is he against ALL the animals in the house or are there one or two he would be enthusiastic (not just okay) about being inside?

If he is not enthusiastic about pets in the house, then it is not a demand, it is a lack of enthusastic agreement about pets in the house.

Pets.

Is your marriage worth less than the pets?

Also; POJA is a living contract; if a spouse has enthusiastic agreement to something, and is later no longer enthusiastic about it, then you return to default until another mutually enthusiastic agreement can be met.

It is a Selfish Demand to require a spouse to put up with something they are not enthusiastic about - and it creates building resentment.


When a spouse goes without something they are enthusiastic about, but the other spouse isn't the resentment isn't as threatening to the marriage.


For instance - if your husband wanted an expensive hot rod, and bought one despite your lack of enthusiasm, you would resent him than he would resent you if he never bought it.


That is why the default position is do nothing.



(Also; you could try cuddling your husband rather than your poodle.)

Yes, we have goodwill. We want both of us to win. I will try a period of putting the animals out when he gets home.

Yes, he is enthusiastic about my poodle being in the house, just not on our bed.

To tell me to put them out would be a demand. And of course my marriage is worth more than our pets.

And letting them in when he is not enthusastic about it is an independent behavior. It is bypassing a demand, and going straight to "I will gain at your expense if you will not agree to what I want."

**edit**

TO, it is a selfish demand to force him to endure your pets in the house. The pet issue should be negotiated and they should not be in the house unless you BOTH enthusiastically agree. The default position in the POJA is to do nothing and that means the pets do not come in the house unless and until you are both enthusiastic about it.

Another poja issue arose last night.

I asked him how he felt about attending my 25th high school reunion. He said, he didn't want to and didn't want me to go either. That our son has a football game that day and he wants me with them. I said ok. I asked him if that was his only enthusiastic position, he said yes. I said, ok, I'm not sure if I'm enthusiastic about not going, but ok. If there's no room for negotiation, then I won't go if he isn't enthusiastic about another option.

This morning he told me, I could go to the reunion. That he was enthusiastic about me going. That he thought he was being selfish in his position.

I told him that it isn't selfish to want to be with your spouse. That I didn't think he was being selfish.

I don't know which reaction is the REAL reaction. He literally did a 180 overnight. I don't want to DJ him and question this turn around. But, I also want enthusiastic and HONESTY agreement. What do ya'll think?

TO, here is where I think you don't understand the POJA. It doesn't require your enthusiastic agreement to NOT do something. IT requires your enthusiastic agreement to DO something. In other words, you shouldn't attend the football game unless you are enthusiastic. It doesn't matter if you are enthusiastic about NOT attending your reunion.


I would wonder if this wasn't a reluctant agreement. Does he understand how damaging reluctant agreements are to marriage? They only lead to resentment and incompatibility.

I'm pretty sure he understands. He listens to the show. We talk about enthusiastic agreement all the time. Making things win/win. Don't capitulate. When I asked why he changed his mind, he just said he felt like he was being selfish. I told him, that if he wasn't enthusiastic, I wouldn't go.

I yes, I'm sure I misunderstand the application of poja. I just hear Dr. H's voice in my head. "win/win" "Don't do anything without your spouses' agreement." When I think "agreement" I think we both are pleased with the decision.

I think back to most of the shows and Dr. H says to negotiate. Are you saying, that sometimes there is NO negotiating? That if one spouse says no, then the other must go with the no. No matter what.

Did you read my post? It means that your "enthusiastic" agreement is not necessary to NOT do something. For example, if you want to go shopping and your spouse is not enthusiastic, it does not mean you go ahead and go shopping because you are NOT enthusiastic about giving up your trip. The rule is that you don't do anything unless both spouses are enthusiastic about it.

No, I am saying that you don't negotiate. But if an agreement can't be reached that you are BOTH enthusiastic about, then that thing is forever off the table. For example, there are NO circumstances under which my husband would be enthusiastic about going shopping at the mall. NONE. So mall shopping together is forever off the table.

I am certainly not enthusiastic about not going to the mall HOWEVER, I would never want my spouse to sacrifice at my expense.

Thank you Melody, I understand now!

We thought everything needed to be win/win. But, sometimes it is win/lose.

I don't want my H playing computer games under any circumstances.(win). He wants to but doesn't. (lose)

But it's only a "lose" until you both arrive at a solution that makes you both happy. He may not ever play computer games, and he may be unhappy about that. However, once that activity is replaced with another that you both enthusiastic about, he will no longer be in a "lose" position.

Well, not really because forcing your spouse to accept something you don't like is not a win because the marriage suffers. Eliminating annoying behaviors and finding things to do that both enjoy is a win/win. His computer games would be lose/lose because you lose and the marriage loses. That is a net loss for your husband because it creates an unhappy, incompatible marriage. I sure don't feel like I have "WON" anything if I can force my spouse into doing/accepting something he hates.

It would be like be quitting smoking. It sure felt like a LOSS!! But the result: great health made it feel like a WIN.

Why would you go to a reunion without your husband?

He doesn't want to go and our son has a football game that day.

I've heard the Harleys say on their radio show that high school reunions ought to be attended by the couple, never by just the one spouse, because of the tendency with this occasion for affairs to start up. So if your H can't go, it's best for you not to attend either.

I'm curious if this would apply to my husband's after-hours business gatherings. Sometimes he needs to "rub elbows" with owners and architects when he finishes a project. He always invites me to them, but I politely decline. He is fine with me not going. It isn't something we fight over.

I HATE stuff like that. Is it okay that he goes without me?

We never questioned it because it's work and necessary.

ps...our email was answered on today's show!

The policy of joint agreement absolutely applies here. In fact, this is an example Dr. Harley and Joyce have used on the show.


He needs to be earning a living in a way that you don't hate.

Out of curiosity, what are his reasons for demanding no pets in the house? And why did he not demand this until recently?

I wouldn't describe this as a demand. "It bothers me for there to be pets in the house." He is informing you of something that is making love bank withdrawals.

Don't waste any energy analyzing why he feels this way or should he feel different, just knock it off like any other annoying behavior, and negotiate an alternative.

It's not a demand when your spouse wants you to not do something. It's simply a desire for the marriage to follow the POJA.

It's not a demand when your spouse wants you to not:
* smoke
* drink
* flirt with members of the opposite sex
* spend your money on something
* leave your socks on the floor
* keep pets in the house

Those aren't demands. If you want to have a good marriage, you follow the policy of joint agreement: never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse. He/she isn't enthusiastic, so you don't do it any more. You negotiate an alternative that you are both enthusiastic about.

That is not a demand.

If she insisted on the pets being in the house when he didn't like it, THAT would be a demand.

I think I wrote that wrong. I hate the after hours corporate parties. I feel out of place.

We are both enthusiastic about him going to these business engagements and me staying home.
We are both enthusiastic about him owning his own company.

I brought up the question because I thought it might not be good for him to go alone, like it's not good for me to go to the reunion alone.

I realize one is work and business related, the other is more social and the possibility of seeing past loves.

For grins.... Is this correct?

Don't smoke. (demand) Honey, your smoking is bothering me. (statement, not a demand)
Don't drink. (demand) Honey, your drinking is bothering me.
Put the cats outside. (demand) Honey, the cats being in the house bothers me.

So, saying something bothers you isn't a demand, it's a statement. But, "how" you ask for it to stop could be a demand.

"Honey, the cats being in the house bothers me, will you please put them out."

If they refuse it's a LB.

There are many things my husband does that bother me, but I sincerely thought I was being demanding to ask him not to do it.

Like him eating out for lunch everyday. I thought I was asking too much for him to take a lunch instead.

Very technically, yes, but the issue Dr. Harley usually focuses on is whether the spouse is being asked to do something or to do nothing. Doing nothing when your spouse is bothered by what you want to do is really just the basic thoughtfulness that is expected in every marriage.

When asking your spouse to do nothing it's best to be as non-demanding as possible. Your spouse may still feel "controlled."

When asked by your spouse to do nothing it's best to realize that they are bothered by what you wanted to do, and to knock it off and negotiate an alternative. Don't let their exact wording become an excuse to not do the fundamentally important thing of knocking it off! If you feel their wording is disrespectful or demanding, jot it down on your weekly love busters worksheet and give it to them next week - AFTER you've knocked it off. (And ask yourself what wording would be acceptable to you and would be non-demanding. Quite often the real problem here is somebody just doesn't want to exercise the basic thoughtfulness of restraining themselves in marriage so as not to hurt their spouse.)


NONONO! That's the basic principle of Marriage Builders. You SHOULD be radically honest about your feelings. You SHOULD complain about the things your husband does that bothers you. And he SHOULD be thoughtful enough to you to stop doing those things. If any of those things doesn't happen, your marriage is going to suffer.

Don't let your husband make constant withdrawals from the Love Bank without sending him an overdraft notice. Otherwise he will feel quite betrayed and surprised when he discovers his balance is zero or majorly in the red.


Don't prescribe the solution (taking a lunch instead). Tell him what he is doing that bothers you, then follow the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation to find an alternative that you are both enthusiastic about.

Analyzing why may open up possibilities for negotiating an alternative. For example, if he is offended by the smell of the pets, keeping them well groomed may be a solution to the problem. I'm not suggesting that she try to change the way he feels, but I do think understanding more about the problem can help with finding solutions.

It is not a demand to ask your spouse to STOP doing something. It can be worded in a demanding way, which is best to avoid, but it is in of itself NOT a demand.

He needs to know that you are not enthusiastic about him eating out every day at lunch. This is not a demand. Him taking a lunch is one of many options you can negotiate.

It's tricky. Prisca and I usually felt that "why?" was disrespectful in these scenarios. If there was really a piece of information that was needed, we ended up having to ask a question more like "What is it about the pets that bothers you? Would it still bother you if they were out of the house by the time you got home every day?"

"Why" questions are usually best avoided. They open up the situation to debates and disrespectful judgements.

Those are very good points, thanks for elaborating.

I can see why "why" could come across as challenging and even disrespectful. Still, I think there are some situations where understanding the reasons behind the way someone feels can be helpful for implementing the POJA. If nothing else, understanding why someone feels the way they do gives you a deeper understanding of that person.

As Markos wrote, it's tricky. I wonder if Dr. Harley has anything to say about polite ways of trying to understand the why's behind a person's feelings? I started He Wins, She Wins a couple weeks ago, but got sidetracked; maybe I'll find something as I continue to read.

Here is one of Dr. Harley's basic concepts that may help:

Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

That's a timely post, thanks! Re-acquaintance with basics is refreshing. I like the part where Dr. Harley says:

KeepLearning,

It is often very impossible to understand the WHY of what the other person thinks or feels. It is usually a distraction in the negotiation process, and very often leads to disrespectful judgements and fighting. Especially for those who are new at negotiation.

It is best to stay away from Why questions:
"It bothers me when the pets are in the house."
"Okay. Let's negotiate. Would it bother you if they come in during the day, but are put out before you get home? Or does it bother you that they are in at all? etc ...."
Negotiation starts.

vs.

"It bothers me when the pets are in the house."
"Why?"
"I just hate that they get hair all over the place and stuff."
"But why? They really don't shed that much, and it's never bothered you before ..."
Fight starts.

Why questions are open ended and very easily seen as a challenge.

I don't think that's a blanket statement that applies to everyone in all situations. It sounds like you and Markos have found in your personal negotiations that asking why is dangerous. I'm sure that's important to know and helps you negotiate.

When my wife and I negotiate, we like to understand why each of us feels the way we do. If we state up front that we're not challenging the other, just trying to understand each other, it opens up channels of communication that have the effect of drawing us closer to each other emotionally. For us, it works.

I agree with this. Markos said it's tricky, and I think part of the trick is softening the questions so they aren't perceived as challenging.

In the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation posted above, Dr. Harley writes:

For my wife and I, asking why in respectful ways helps us understand each other.

(My wife and I have only been married a year and a few months. It's possible our Givers are still very active, and maybe this is why it works for us. Maybe down the road, we'll have more trouble with why questions. I hope not!)

KeepLearning, you are the exception rather than the rule. Markos and I have been on this board helping couples far longer than you, and have seen how this plays out in their negotiations. It is best, for most couples, to avoid the "Why?"

I should add that we typically don't start out asking why. When negotiating, we suggest alternatives looking for win-win solutions. It often happens that we'll arrive at a solution, and then, in a sort of post-mortem analysis, we'll ask each other why we feel the way we do simply to try to understand each other better.

When a couple is new to negotiation, and are already having trouble with POJA, it is best to stay away from "Why?" I have already stated the reasons for this. Glad it works for you, KeepLearning, but suggesting it to couples who are struggling is dangerous.

Understood. Thanks for your perspective.

When you say you've been on this board helping couples far longer than I, it sounds like you're assuming I'm trying to help couples on this board. Actually, I'm mostly here to ask questions and learn. If I happen to have an experience or a thought from one of Dr. Harley's writings that I think will help another poster, I'll offer it, but what I'm primarily here for is to better my understanding of his principles.

Okay, people are usually asked to stick to their own thread if that is what they want to do. It can be disruptive to insert yourself into other peoples threads.

Be careful to do it in a way that doesn't make risky suggestions on the threads of other folks seeking help. This post took the thread down a wrong turn that is distracting to the other poster and encourages a course of action that her husband may very well find disrespectful:


We shouldn't need to go on for thirty posts about it here on somebody else's thread. If you have further questions they ought to go on your own thread, rather than debating and disagreeing with the people who are here day in and day out trying to help others learn how to follow this program, sometimes in very volatile situations.

I understand.

TenaciousOne, sorry for the threadjack.

No worries!

We took the first approach. When I offered the solution of pets in the house during the day, he moved off of no pets in the house at all. We handled the conflict well. No fighting. No DJ's.

Remove Post

What was your final agreement?

Pets... He texts me when he will be home. I put them out before he gets home. My poodle is allowed in the house anytime, but not on our bed. She can get on the couch though. The border collies aren't allowed on anything. No more cats as pets. But, we haven't figured out what to do about the feral cats. Usually, I would spay and neuter them, put flea treatment on them and they live outside. But, I don't think he is enthusiastic about spending money on every cat that shows up. But, I know he isn't enthusiastic about another litter of kittens born under our house either. That issue needs more work.

The Class Reunion.... No agreement yet. He said he is enthusiastic about me going because it only comes around every five years, there's been no problems in the past with me attending them, and no "old flames" will be there.

All it takes is one time. This is why Dr Harley doesn't recommend going to these things without your spouse. It really isn't worth it.

Here's your show.

Radio Clip of TenaciousOne's Show

Here is your question.
Radio Clip of TenaciousOne's question

Now that LB's are under control, we need to ramp up our need meeting. I've been in withdrawal for a long time and didn't know what my EN's were. Now, I think they are IC and non-physical affection. Physical affection is way down the list. My husband's are physical affection and SF.

Dr. H says we should have emotional feelings when our EN's are met. My husband does, I don't. Is that because I'm still below the threshold? My husband is much more romantic than me. He needs romance, I don't.

The other night we got home from football practice at about 8:30, retired to the bedroom around 9. H started kissing me and then asked for specific type of SF. I was sorta annoyed by this. I had to decline because I had bit my tongue and there was a spot that hurt a great deal. H understood, but rolled over to go to sleep. I asked him if he would stay awake and hold hands and watch the game with me. He said yes and asked how long did I want him to stay awake.

This whole sitch left me with a bad feeling, but I can't really explain why? I shouldn't be any more annoyed by him asking for SF than I would something else? Should I? How is it any different than a wife asking for a back rub or conversation? If I asked for a back rub or some talk time, and my H seemed annoyed by it, I might take that as a lovebuster. I don't think he knew I was annoyed. I don't think I lovebusted him.

I want loverbusters to leave and enthusiastic need meeting to begin.

Part of me feels my lack of enthusiasm is because I'm not in love and my husband's weight is affecting my attraction to him.

I can recall twice when I had a positive emotional feeling during SF. If SF is at the bottom of my en list, should I still have a positive emotional feeling during sex? Is it okay, that I don't?

I wouldn't start by "ramping up need meeting," instead remember how UA time is defined, and ramp up your UA time instead.

Both of your Love Banks will fill much quicker, and your most important ENs will be better revealed, after a few months of 25+ hours each week of solid UA time.

So; eliminate love busters, ramp up UA time. Then reevaluate ENs.

I know what you're saying, HHH. We've both expressed our concern over me not being able to meet his SF need. I never have, really. He said, he feels like he is sacrificing in that area.

For it to work it needs to be enjoyable and emotionally bonding. It isn't. I'm afraid my marriage will fail anyway.

I could really use some help here.

I emailed this on the 17th, I haven't heard from the Harley's yet.

"My husband and I have been married for 23 years with three kids. For almost 16 years my husband was addicted to computer games. Lots of neglect and love busters from both of us during that time. He quit playing for good this year. After listening to the radio show, he concluded that his gaming addiction was like an affair. He really gets it now. Through that time, I capitulated, and had unenthusiastic sex. It set up a nasty aversion. I have completed the aversion tasks from the website.

Fast forward to the present, our love busters have been gone for three months. I'm still way below the threshold though. Because I spent so many years in withdrawal, it's been difficult to identify my emotional needs. We think they are intimate conversation and non-physical affection. My husband's needs are physical affection and sex. He is meeting my needs, but I can't meet his.

We understand that a wife needs an emotional bond and the prospect of enjoying the sex. Right now, I have neither. I disassociate during sex so I can perform, I can get aroused and have an orgasm, but immediately after I feel shame, disgust and self-loathing. It takes a day or two to shake that feeling. Also, my husband is about 100 pounds overweight. I don't know how much of this is physical attraction vs aversion or both.

What do we do now? If we take sex off the table, how long would my husband need to wait? If I can't recover, should he leave me?" End of email.

Sex has been off the table since the 16th. My husband wants physical affection. But, I'm not enthusiastic about it. I read in HNHNs that "affection that is sexually motivated, isn't affection, but sex." ALL the affection we have ever had was sexually motivated.

The other night, H and I were out to dinner. I looks at me and says, "Hey let's make out when we get home." I just looked at him. I know he meant, Hey let's go home and cuddled. But, everything in me, heard... Let's go home and have sex. I can't relax around him. I feel like my bed is a trigger, his touch is a trigger.

Do I need to redo the aversion exercises. I'm not meeting my H's needs and it is hurting him.

Yes, start with aversion exercises.
He will need to learn what words to avoid for now.

How many hours of UA are the two of you getting?
You can meet his other needs for now.

Are there any lingering LB around?

Sorry things are so hard!

I'll be interested in what Dr Harley had to say.

No love busters. We probably spend 12 to 15 hours talking, sometimes while sitting close or holding hands, or we'll talk on the phone during his commute home. We go out to dinner and grocery shopping.

He wants to retire to the bedroom at 9 and have physical affection. Lots of kissing and him rubbing my body. I need to re-program my mind to not automatically associate that with sex.

It's been two weeks, I wonder if I should re-send the email?

H and I have had a text convo today. He wants foreplay without the act. He says that's affection because it won't lead to a sex act. But, foreplay is very sexual. How is it still not sex?

I think I had progress with the aversion exercises before because I was still drinking. Not nearly as relaxed now. But, the depression has greatly improved.

The aversion exercises are about being totally relaxed during each phase of a sexual experience.

Also, do you all have Prisca and Marco's UA schedule? I can't remember the details.

Thanks, Brain. H and I were talking about working out together, since he is committed to losing weight. I said, it couldn't be at a gym. He said, he had never heard Dr. H make that requirement. I told him about the attention issue and the contrast effect. He would like a resource from Dr. H.

Does one exists?

Dr. Harley makes the requirement that if your wife is not enthusiastic about it, you don't do it. It's called the Policy of Joint Agreement.

There's not a step in there where you have to justify not being enthusiastic about it.

Try clicking notify on your post and ask the mods for help.

When dealing with lovebusters, should we say...You just lovebusted me. OR should we say...You just dj'ed me. Is it ok, if we apologize, then ask for the specific lovebuster committed if it's not called out specifically?

Are you guys listening to MBR? Last week this topic was visited a couple of times.

That is also where people get the idea that going to the gym can create a contrast effect. Usually this is the case when one spouse is not satisfied with the physical attractiveness of the other and the contrast effect has a significant negative impact.

Yes, I listen everyday. Do you remember the day? All the shows start to run together and I can't tell one from another.

I don't follow the comparison with explaining LB's to the contrast effect. Care to explain?

I wouldn't consider it a comparison, & I can see how that was confusing. What I meant is that both of those topics are covered on the marriage builders radio show. The gym, and also how to respond when you've been offended. I want to say that it might have been Wednesday of last week when the topic of being offended was brought up.

I think it could be this one from the 30th

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=6860

"Brian and Melanie call in with the desire to improve their marriage. They want to stop their love busters and meet each others emotional needs."

We found it best to just say "That bothered me." Then be more specific later in writing. Less risk for debate, or continued lovebusting from either side.

How do I open my husband's lovebank? I think it is closed to him.

I have tried for months to figure out what my needs are. I've used the question..." When I don't get blank I get frustrated." I think it is acts of care (non physical affection), domestic support and family commitment.

I don't get frustrated when we don't do RC, SF or physical Affection. IC is mostly problem solving, which I enjoy doing. But, admittedly, we are both kinda boring people. We don't have any common interests or hobbies.

How I feel about him daily revolves around how he treats me. Not about what we do together.

We were talking tonight and he asked me, "Why do you want to be in a romantic marriage?" I said, "So I can easily meet your emotional needs." I don't need a romantic marriage for myself. I really think this is a stumbling block as big as lovebusters.

BTW, lovebusters came back big time last week. And once over the weekend. I feel like that turtle, Dr H talks about on the show. I'm afraid to poke my head out.

I've got to open my lovebank to my husband though.

You cannot open your lovebank as long as your husband is lovebusting you. What is he doing? Will he stop?

How many hours UA are you getting now?

He's got to stop the love busters, then.

Since last week, UA has stunk because I was so hurt by his demands and DJ's, I've been closed to him.

But before that, UA was real close to 15 hours. We retired to the bedroom around 9. We kiss and he touches me in non-arousal ways. If I'm enthusiastic about SF, then we might do that. SF is happening about every 10 days or so. On the weekends we might go out to eat and grocery shopping. During the day, during the week before 9, we will talk and hang out.

Specifically, last week he started an argument with me over some bible teaching that took place in a bible study my daughter and I attend. He said, I was deceived, I was following a false doctrine, I couldn't go anymore, That he had "to put his foot down", "he couldn't allow this", "it's for my own good". I told him he was being very disrespectful to me. He said, "I don't care. This is more important than anything right now." We talked for hours about the doctrine. We decided to set aside time each day to pray and read the scriptures together, watch sermon clips, and read commentaries for clarification. It took him three days before apologizing. And it came with a Yeah, but... As of yesterday, he understands the doctrine, is now (again) enthusiastic about us attending bible study. All that ugliness shouldn't have happened at all.

I printed off Dr H's articles on Resolving Conflicts in Faith. That helped him a lot to realize how badly he handled his concerns.

His biggest LBs are DJ's and anger. His anger isn't toward me usually. Sometimes the kids, but mostly he has a bad day at work or is dealing with a difficult sitch at work.

He had made great progress since early September, with maybe one or two mistakes.

Stop. As in none? That is impossible to never screw up, right?

I'm trying to explain my EN's to H. Non-physical affection and IC.

I define non-physical affection as acts of care. It's a 24 hour attitude of care and thoughtfulness. I asked him not to be angry. No scowl, no sighs, no anger about the kids, the job, the house, anything.... If you get mad, don't act mad around me. He wondered if that was reasonable, since his anger isn't toward me. It a feeling he is having at any given moment and he expresses it, not just toward me. But, I feel it. It affects me. It changes how I feel about him. I don't want to be around him when he is angry or "frustrated".

He then made the request, that I too never get angry. Although, he has never said anything (before now) about my anger affecting him.

I told him, I thought I remembered Dr. H saying, "Never get angry."

This week really sucked. He was sick with a bad cold. Yesterday, was ok. Today was terrible. All things out of our control, but it ruined family time for everyone. Now UA tonight has been cancelled because we are both in such foul moods.

What should my attitude be toward my own needs?

I don't ask for my needs to be met for me. I ask for them to be met, so I can enthusiastically meet his need for SF. It seems that my taker isn't engaged.

The lovebusters are gone by 95%. UA hasn't been scheduled because of his job. Although, last night he agreed to try to schedule it in the future.

He made a request last night (albeit poorly worded) for SF. I said I wasn't enthusiastic. He said that hurt him. We had a semi-heated convo about our needs. Then he said, "I didn't realize your lovebank was so low, I'm frustrated because I don't know where the finish line is, I didn't know this mountain would be so high too climb."

Our mutual frustration is need meeting. We're stuck.

And you will remain stuck until you are getting UA on a regular basis.

I asked him if he thought I would be enthusiastic about SF last night? He said, "Yes, I thought we had good UA the past couple of weeks." I said, "Where, when, how?" He said, "We cleaned out the closet together Sunday and had a few good convos on his commute home and made out a couple of times."

I told him I need more time, more convo, more kindness, tons more. He looked at me funny and made the comments listed above.

I don't want to hurt my husband. He was hurt and dismayed last night.

Are you filling out the UA forms and graphs?

No, we've never done them. I'll print them now.

And I've stopped drinking everyday. Wine had always taken the edge off and helped me feel more amorous and relaxed.

Do you need to get help for your drinking? Are you on ADs?

I was worried about the drinking and depression last year. I stopped cold turkey in September/October. Suffered no withdrawal. I drink now on occasion, but not daily. Maybe twice a week, a couple glasses of wine.

I'm not on ADs. I have been in the past, several times, but I cannot tolerate the side effects anymore. I think the daily drinking made the depression worse.

I physically and mentally feel good. I started working out at home, during the day, about three weeks ago. I'm back on my sugar free/grain free diet and feel much better.

Never more than one drink per day for women. Protect your liver.
http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/faqs.htm#moderateDrinking

I do not understand...... He isn't willing to met YOUR needs which makes it hard for you to meet his and you feel bad for Him???????

He should be hurt. Stop protecting him from consequences of his actions. If he isn't willing to meet your needs, it's going to hurt you & him.

Rewarding non need meeting with SF, teaches him that you don't really need your needs met. You did the right thing!!!! Don't let this slip again.

I am glad that he stopped his LB.... But time to pick up building the romantic marriage & not give you guilt trips for having needs.

It's in His best interest to learn what You consider UA time, what You consider needs met mean.

Yesterday, they had a re-run on the radio show. The original show was from January 27, 2015. The caller, Margret, said her husband felt "inferior" because she made four times his salary.

Joyce asked, "Should she leave that job?" Dr. H, "Said no, Margret wouldn't be enthusiastic about that." Then they ended the call.

I thought they would advise her to look at a different job because it bothers her husband. He's not enthusiastic about her salary. The default would be "no nothing".

You don't need to be enthusiastic about not doing something, if your spouse is not enthusiastic about you doing it.

For example. I'm not enthusiastic about my pets being outside all the time. Doesn't matter. My husband doesn't want them in the house. So they are outside.

I wonder why Dr. Harley said that?

Are you guys following the Policy of Undivided Attention now?

Yes, Sunday before last, we sat down and scheduled 15 hours. Over the week, we got 17.5 UA hours!

This past Sunday, we scheduled 19 UA hours to be completed this week.

Wasn't that the caller that was also separated already? There were a lot of things going on in the scenario that might have come before the lack of agreement over a job.

I'd want to hear a lot more context about their situation to know exactly why he said that. I'm sure I've heard the show from that date, but I don't remember the specifics. For example, I would suspect that Dr. Harley wants her to have a career if she might need to separate from her husband in the future.

ETA: Basically, the POJA is not a loophole that a husband can use to keep his wife from doing Marriage Builders. So if he's not getting on board with the plan, she doesn't have to remain dependent on him simply because he says he's "not enthusiastic" with her plans for separation.

I listened to the show. Dr. Harley wanted them to focus on learning how to negotiate their problems for 12 weeks, and THEN start solving their issues.

You also clipped off the end of the segment. He didn't stop with "She would not be enthusiastic with that," but when on to explain how they need to learn to solve their problems and come up with their solutions, and how by doing so, many of these problems they have will fade away.

I transcribed it:

Joyce: "Let me bring up a couple of the issues. The first one being her husband feels inferior regarding income."

Margaret: "Yes, I think you could put it that way.

Joyce: "So much so that he doesn't even want to know what she's receiving in this new job. So how do you deal with that? Because she's not going to quit her job to make him feel more equal in the incomes."

Dr. Harley: "Well first of all she would not be enthusiastic about that outcome. Here's the interesting thing about problem solving in marriage and that is that I rarely come up with the solution, because I'm not either the husband or the wife and I don't fully understand their perspectives on things. What I present is the way they go about using their native creativity to solve the problems they face."

Joyce: "So the problem would be 'Hon you have a hard time with me making more than you, so now we need to make it so that you are happy with what I earn' is that how it wold go?"

Dr. Harley: "Yeah, and to be honest with you, you may find that by solving the problem of 'having trouble coming to an agreement,' some of these problems will fade away on their own."

"Do nothing" is temporary and is not designed to be comfortable. Doing nothing is what you do while you are negotiating to find a permanent solution you are both happy with.

Check out this great show from August 9, 2012 where Dr. Harley talks about the need to keep on negotiating until a permanent solution is found:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04045
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04046
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04047
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04048
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=04049

Here's the show in question.

Radio Clip of 1-27-15's show

It seems as though they are saying, that ultimately the goal would be the husband's enthusiastic agreement with the amount of money the wife currently makes. That seems contrary to what we usually hear.

Usually, one spouse says, "When you do _______ that bothers me." The other spouse says, "Oh, I'm sorry, I won't do that again." No negotiation, no poja, it just stops. The spouse that is doing the offending behavior doesn't need to be enthusiastic about stopping.

Yes, this couple is separated. The wife needs to work, but does she need to make 4x the husband's salary?

In negotiation, would making less money be on the table? The Harley's response seems to be no. Joyce says, the wife doesn't need to quit her job and in negotiation "we need to make it so that you are happy with what I earn' is that how it wold go?"

No, ultimately the goal is for both of them to come to a solution that makes both of them happy. It might mean she quits her job, or it might not. They must negotiate.

But Dr. Harley wanted them to spend time learning to negotiate, first.

Did you relisten to the show TO?

Yes, this morning.

The couple is separated, but working on questionnaires and HNHN.
Their conflicts include, IB, step parenting issues, job travel and her income 4x his income.

So, solutions.

One solution may be for her to change jobs.

However, another solution may be for her husband to get schooling or training to increase his own salary, thus narrowing the gap.

Or, for her to work part-time and not just quit.

And, of course, those solutions are subject to PoJA, and must allow for UA time, and maintain extraordinary precautions.

Is this correct in applying the POJA? For example, My H will never be enthusiastic about the dogs in the house. And I'm not enthusiastic about the dogs being outside all the time. But, I don't need to be enthusiastic.

Sometimes, there are just things that a spouse may never be ok with. They don't have to be ok.

With the example of the Margaret, her husband may never be ok with her making more than him, so she will need to make less than him, or it will be a love buster. Right?

Tenacious, did you get a chance to listen to this show?

Dr. Harley is a big advocate of trying the simplest solutions first. In this case, Dr. Harley thinks it is very likely that the husband will not feel this way after other problems in the marriage are fixed. There are a lot of issues that fix this pattern. Two other examples I can think of: the wife doesn't like how much time the husband is working - but Dr. Harley might find out how she feels after she is getting adequate UA time before reducing his work ours; example 2 - the wife is not enthusiastic about sex, but Dr. Harley would see how she feels after other relationship problems are resolved and she is in love with her husband and the husband learns to make love in a way she enjoys rather than telling them "no sex."

In this specific case, there is no reason to take the drastic step of quitting her job before the simpler solutions have been tried first. Especially because it puts her at serious risk if her husband is not fully committed to having a good marriage.

You need to listen to the radio show I linked to, and you might want to send Dr. Harley another email. I believe you've incorrectly taken "do nothing" as a permanent solution instead of continuing to look for alternatives.

In general, when a spouse is not enthusiastic about doing nothing, negotiation is not over. There are very few exceptions.

I agree and I think that's a good idea, email Dr. Harley.

Yes, I did.

Thanks, Marcos. I understand.

You are seeing POJA as either "his way" or "her way."
That simply will not work, because one spouse will be left unhappy.
One spouse not being enthusiastic is only the first step. You do not stop there because the spouse who isn't getting what she wants is not going to be happy. The couple must continue to negotiate to find a solution that BOTH spouses will be happy with.

You do not stop at the "do nothing" default of POJA. You continue to brainstorm and come up with a solution that you can both be happy about. It's not "his way" or "her way" but rather "our way."

There are more solutions than just she either keeps making more than him OR she has to quit. Many, many options. They must look at those and decide which ones will make them happy.

But FIRST, they must learn how to negotiate. And Dr. Harley seems to think that once they learn how to negotiate, some problems such as this one may just disappear.

In negotiation, must the unenthusiastic spouse move off his/her position?

EX. I don't want the dogs in the house. They are either in or out, there's no middle ground. I am left unhappy.

EX. I don't want you to make more money than me. There's no middle ground there.

EX. I don't like that particular sex act. No middle ground.

I understand, that the other spouse can bring ideas. Ok, what can we do to help you be ok with (less money, or dogs in the house, etc....) But, there is a moment at which negotiation stops. And one spouse will need to give up what they want because it hurts their spouse.

This has been how H and I have negotiated. If we can't come up with a third win/win option. We don't ask the other to gain at our expense. I don't insist on the dogs in the house, just because that would make me happy. I choose to release that, so I don't hurt my husband.

There is no way, under no circumstances is there a way for my H to be enthusiastic about dogs in the house.

I'm not talking about doing nothing. I'm talking about not doing something that bothers your spouse.

I understand that a couple should look for ways of helping the unenthusiastic spouse become enthusiastic. A+B+C=enthusiastic. But, what if there's just no way?

You need to be more specific about the issue involved and take this out of hypotheticals.

Suppose we're talking about me having a relationship with a woman at work. Even though I might be unhappy for awhile that the POJA rules out me having such a relationship, Prisca and I shouldn't negotiate the issue. The reason is not because "there's just no way" Prisca will ever be happy about it. The reason is that having this would be totally damaging to our marriage. The only reasonable alternative for us to negotiate is my having a better relationship with Prisca, not a relationship with a second woman.

But suppose we're talking about bringing pets in the house. Since you're not enthusiastic about doing nothing, you should keep negotiating. You are obviously very bitter and resentful about the solution that you have now (do nothing; leave the pets outside of the house), and so negotiation should keep going on. Write Dr. Harley and ask him what to do next.

Also, is your husband following the rest of the program with you? Never demanding, angry, or disrespectful? Never engages in independent behavior? Totally honest and transparent? Spends fifteen wonderful exciting enjoyable hours a week with you outside of the house alone together having a wonderful time?

The problem is that when your husband is not on board with giving you consistent and wonderful UA time, there is no way for him to make this up to you.

Giving you his undivided attention for fifteen hours a week with great conversation while having a lot of fun together = BIG, BIG love bank deposits
Having the dog in the house = little love bank deposits

The way to fix this is to get him to concentrate his effort where it will make the most difference.

Find an alternative that makes you just as happy as having dogs in the house. Do something else that you really, really like and that he also really, really likes. Something completely different..


Find an alternative that makes him just as happy as making more money than her. Something that he really, really likes and that she also really, really likes.


We see this one here all the time. The "no middle ground" sentence doesn't belong there, because there's no need to find "middle ground." The solution is not to find middle ground but to find an alternative sex act that he really enjoys and that she also really enjoys.

Thinking outside of the box means quit making it be about the dog or about money or about one particular sex act and look for something that makes you both really, really happy.

What did you think about it? Did you get the answer to your questions?

Did your husband listen with you?

'Middle ground' implies there are only two options and there is obviously only an unhappy compromise in the centre of two fixed options.

PoJA is about recognizing the other hundred options...

Get a kennel for the dogs, get rid of the dogs, have a room inside for the dogs, bathe the dogs before allowing them in, have them in for a set period before a clean up of the house....

There's also other techniques in reaching a PoJA solution including respectful persuasion and trying something you don't like for a short period in case you do like it.

Thank you for your patience. I understand your examples.

We discussed all of this on my thread before (pgs 22-28). They read our email on the show about the pets. Dr. Harley said, the default was no pet ownership at all. Get rid of the pets. H and I agreed that the pets could be in the house when he wasn't home. He has changed his mind to never allowing the border collies in the house at all.

I'm not bitter or resentful. Just not enthusiastic.

H is doing a good job. 95% of lovebusters gone. We just started scheduling UA last week. Enjoyable? Yes. Wonderful? Yes. Exciting? No.

No, he didn't listen with me. I listened to these again this morning.

Their main issue was the H seeing magazines, the wife didn't want him seeing. They stopped the subscriptions to the house, but the wife was still concerned about H seeing mags at the barber shop.

I don't know why it's taken them a year. If there are no mags coming to the house, the H should be able to get the mail.

But, I think H should agree to not look at mags at the barber shop because it bothers his wife.

I understand that once all his lovebusters are gone and they can poja smaller things, he won't feel like it's a lose for him.

Thank you Indie. We usually do everything you listed above. But, on the "dog issue", it's a no. We have found no way he would be enthusiastic about them being in the house.

We had a similar issue with my high school reunion (also previously discussed). I didn't go because he couldn't go with me. And he didn't want me going alone.

I guess the take-away is....

All negotiation is pleasant and safe.
Bring conflict to the table.
State your position.
Ask spouse "What would make you enthusiastic about it?"
Keep ideas coming.
If spouse is still not enthusiastic, table it....Do nothing that bothers spouse.
Have good UA and be so in love, you don't miss the thing that bothers your spouse.

Identify the problem from both perspectives.

Find an alternative that WOULD make you both happy.

Review the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation
Guideline 1: Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
Guideline 2: Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Guideline 3: Brainstorm with abandon.
Guideline 4: Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement -- mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

Notice that none of the steps require you to stay in the "do nothing" default of POJA.

You will also find that once you know how to negotiate (and do it on a regular basis), when there are no lovebusters in your marriage, AND when you are getting UA, a lot of these problems that seem big to you now will go away.

Find an alternative.

If you were not resentful, you would not be bringing it up now.
You are experiencing Type B resentment. Read about it here. You will experience this until an alternative has been found.

Why?
It bothered her for him to get the mail.
They found an alternative.

I wouldn't expect to be able to do very good negotiation until this has been going on for awhile longer, then. The feeling of romantic love that comes from following the whole Marriage Builders plan is the lubricant that makes the difficult parts of the plan work.


Outside of the house?

Did you ask him to listen?

To be honest I was thinking no pet ownership at all would be the likeliest outcome after posting this. Bit psyched to see Dr H thought so too. I was thinking so because getting rid of the dogs would hurt short term but eventually you'd forget and fill your life with other things.

While they are there however, ownership of them means doing something you're not entirely happy with.

It's unlikely you would have got the dogs at all if you'd PoJAd the pet rules first. So I would just consider that.

However I'm not saying that this is the 'right' option by any means - you are the person who knows your own views best. If you can find a way to be OK with them outside, your own feelings are the test.

I have to say though, this does sound like an unhappy 'lose lose' compromise between two fixed views. Your H doesn't sound enthusiastic about owning dogs at all - but to stay on 'middle ground' he won't get rid of them entirely.

You want them to be part of the household and entire family: presumably why you got them, but to stay on 'middle ground' your experience of pet ownership is not the type you wanted at all.

Why not just get rid of them? They'd be happier in a home where they were wanted by all concerned, and you wouldn't have all the responsibility without the enjoyment of pet ownership. Without them you could find another type of family experience, one that bonds you all.

There may also be a type of pet that your husband would enjoy more - then you could all share the experience.

I think it's a a bit strange for a couple to own dogs, but only really one of you is into them. That's a a confusing set up for dogs too, who tend to see the man as the alpha.

[/quote]

Did your husband listen with you?[/quote]

No, he didn't listen with me.[/quote]

Did you ask him to listen?[/quote] No

No, his still wasn't allowed to check the mail, a year later. Joyce asked him how long it had been, he said a year. That's what prompted his call. He felt controlled by poja. They were stuck.

The first week about 14 hours were out of the house. This past week about 10 hours out of the house.

TO - you do know that 10/14 hours is a waste of time don't you? If you aren't getting 15 in you might as well do something else.

No, he wants the dogs. He likes the dogs. He wants to go outside a few minutes a day. pet them and come back inside.

The kids and I want the dogs. We like the dogs. We want to go outside with them, but we also like them inside with us throughout our day.

Our first agreement said the dogs could be inside, while he was at work. He changed his mind.

I would rather enjoy my dogs outside, than to not have them at all. That's why I've stopped negotiations with him. I'm concerned he will change his mind further, to no dogs at all. He mentioned it once, but said he knew how much that would hurt the kids and me.

Our total UA was 19 the last week, then about 16 for this week. The remainder was time at home alone, in our bedroom doing things we can't do out of the house.

He just recently decided that our marriage is more important than his career. We scheduled more than 15 and got more than 15. It's better than what we were doing. It didn't feel like a waste of time. We've made progress from where we were in 2011. I don't see separation or divorce on the horizon anymore.

This right here.... This is why I need to let the dog thing go. H has said there are no circumstances under which he wants the dogs in the house.

This was my whole point of this recent dialogue about the January 27 radio show. Sometimes we must let go of our enthusiasm, so our spouses don't sacrifice.

I understand we brainstorm, we talk, we think...but ultimately if one spouse says no....it needs to be a no.

Fair enough.


Good news about UA

We are both looking forward to this day!

No, I didn't. He doesn't like it when I ask him to read something or listen to something specific. He says, he feels like I'm trying to educate him.

His listens voluntarily to the radio show, though.

Right. Because enthusiasm is only valuable if you are BOTH enthusiastic about decisions that affect your marriage.

And you find an alternative that makes you BOTH HAPPY.

You are really focused on there only being 2 options: His or Hers. POJA will not work if you are going to limit yourselves like that.

He doesn't want dogs in the house. Okay. You find an alternative that YOU BOTH will be happy with.

My whole point of posting was to correctly understand the Harley's statements in the January 27 show. They seemed contrary to what I've been told on my thread.

On the show, he said Margaret didn't need to quit her job because she wouldn't be enthusiastic about quitting. Although, the amount of money she made hurt her spouse. It was one of their listed conflicts.

A spouse doesn't need to be enthusiastic about stopping something that hurts the other spouse.

I understand that we need to find an alternative that makes us both happy. But, my point was the thing that hurts the spouse can't remain on the table.

I understand that we find alternatives. We make our marriage so amazing that we don't miss the "thing" that we gave up. That is how a win/win is created.

In our case, it is up to me to be enthusiastic about an alternative. Not try to force my H to be enthusiastic about something he isn't. We just haven't found it yet.

Maybe when the weather warms up and we can be outside more and spend more time with the animals. Maybe when we buy a boat and we're on a lake fishing (high on the RC list). Maybe when we finish our covered porches and the dogs don't get so nasty, they can come in the house.

I'm really not stuck on two options. I just know everything that includes them being in the house is out of the question for now and maybe forever.

I absolutely appreciate all the dialogue and q and a on my thread! Iron sharpens iron. Trust that I don't waste your time. I listen, think and apply.

That is not all he said. Did you read the transcript I posted?

If you stop at the "do nothing" and do not go on to find something else that would make you both happy, then you really are stuck on just two options.

For your situation with the dogs, I suggest finding an alternative that doesn't involve dogs.

This is what Brainstorm with Abandon means.

Yes, I listened and read the transcript.

Joyce: "Let me bring up a couple of the issues. The first one being her husband feels inferior regarding income."

Margaret: "Yes, I think you could put it that way.

Joyce: "So much so that he doesn't even want to know what she's receiving in this new job. So how do you deal with that? Because she's not going to quit her job to make him feel more equal in the incomes."

Dr. Harley: "Well first of all she would not be enthusiastic about that outcome.

Isn't he saying she doesn't need to quit her job to make him feel more equal in the income, because she would not be enthusiastic about that outcome. Literally.

I'm sorry I don't see it differently. She MIGHT need to quit her job as ONE of the options because her H isn't happy about making less money than her. I know it's not the only option.

It seemed to me that he was saying that quitting the job wouldn't be an option because she wouldn't be enthusiastic about quitting her job.

We tell people all the time to work more, work less, change jobs, don't go to this or that meeting....if your spouse isn't enthusiastic about what you are doing. It just read to me, like he was taking quitting the job out of the options. That's all.

Why? If we both want the dogs.

You left out quite a bit of the transcript.

Having dogs in the house is not the only thing in life that will make you happy. It's one of many.

Find an alternative thing that makes you both happy.

I heard this radio show and my take away from this was that Dr. Harley was saying that his feeling of inferiority about her higher income was likely just a SYMPTOM of the other marital problems. If they fixed the root problems they have, that feeling would probably go away. Regardless, of all their issues right now, that is a side issue. They had more pressing concerns to address first, so quitting her job would be rash.

If they improved their marriage in other ways his negative feelings about the income disparity would likely disappear, but if not, they could POJA that later.

Also Dr. Harley points out that as your LBs drop away and romantic love is restored it's easier to do the POJA because you're feeling more enthusiasm for doing things you know make your spouse happy. (Which is a little confusing too as I personally am often not enthusiastic about doing something in the absence of my H but feel happy enough about doing it with him as making him happy makes me happy - so where is the line between sacrifice and actually being enthusiastic? But I digress...)

BTW, it comes to my mind that even if that was the immediate issue, there are a lot of other solutions than her quitting. The H finding a way to make more money is a possible solution.

I do find the POJA confusing - I hope introducing a new scenario is not to hijacking your thread - but I have a situation where I want to move to a different state and DH wants to stay here. On the surface it sounds like "do nothing" means stay put. But every month that I work more hours than I want to, to pay thousands of dollars to live in a high tax high rent area where I don't even want to be, I think - I actually am doing something that I am certainly not enthusiastic about.

I understand. I will concede that I'm not understanding what the Harley's said on that show. It doesn't matter really. I've listened to more than 100 shows and never heard anything that contradicted the forum advice or the articles. Something is getting lost in translation. I do not want to misrepresent their teachings.

Yes, I agree.

Do you have access to the archived shows? There was an awesome episode where a couple agreed to "try out" a new location where the husband's son lived. But, the wife now wanted to leave and go back to their previous location. But, husband wanted to stay in their current state. Ultimately, Dr. Harley said to pick a third location that would meet all their needs and that they could both agree upon. Not the current state or the previous state.

Maybe Brainhurts can find a show for you.

I think the real problem in your marriage, TO, is your UA time. If you can concentrate on that, and on learning to negotiate small things first, then a lot of the problems you have will be easier to find solutions for.

As I posted a while back, you are experiencing Type B resentment. Did you read that link?

This is the resentment a person feels when they are not able to do something they want to do, as opposed to Type A resentment which is the resentment a person feels when they are forced to do something against their will.

Dr. Harley says that Type B is better than Type A BECAUSE it will go away once you have found something else that will make you happy.

But if you do not go on to find that alternative, then the resentment will not go away.

What other things will make you just as happy as having the dogs in the house? They do exist. Those are the things you need to be looking for together with your husband.

Yes, I read it. I agree with everything you said. Until I put a stop to unenthusiastic sex, I dealt with Type A for almost 24 years. We only do things we are enthusiastic about now. We take that very seriously. I didn't have a voice for many years. Type A resentment is gone now. No sacrifice, no capitulation from either of us.

The dogs. Yes, Type B for now. For the longest we didn't put our marriage first. We couldn't stop the lovebusters, so when we were together it wasn't pleasant. No one wants 15 hours of lovebusters! Our UA will be challenged the summer, when construction work is at it's peak. We've never put the marriage before the work. It was just a couple weeks ago, that H conceded that fact and agreed we need to stop it.

H said something very honest this weekend. He said, When I love bust him, it doesn't hurt him at the moment. It doesn't really even register. But, when I say he has love busted me, that's he when feels my love buster from the past.

I told him, to not give me a pass. At the moment, just say "that bothered me". He understands we should respectfully complain and say "bothered me". He couldn't explain why he delayed telling me or why it only bothered him when I brought up his LB's.

Is this the show? I think these are excellent shows about POJA.

Radio Clip on POJA about Moving
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Radio Clip of Follow-up Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

We just completed a huge renovation on our home. For about a month things were out of the ordinary. There were workers here nearly everyday. Homeschool was inconsistent, chores were inconsistent, UA inconsistent. There were whole rooms we couldn't use because of workers and all the furniture was outside on the porches. DH steadily got more annoyed with us and stressed out. He made demands, DJs, AO's. I kept the peace because we were all stressed. I didn't want to fight.

Well, it all came out when I asked him not to put the generator on the porch. He hollered, "Well, I wish you had thought about that before I took it off the truck!"

We talked it out and he now understands that his behaviors hurt me terribly. He apologized. But, in all this he said I hurt him too.

He said he felt neglected while doing the renovation. He felt like we should have done a better job at keeping up with our responsibilities (homeschool, chores, etc....) He said I should have pitched in more on some of the renovation projects. He brought up owning the animals again. I gave him my blessing to dispose of any pet he wants to. He brought up, me allowing the kids to play with the new dolley and getting it dirty.

He expressed all of this with dj's. I understand he is bothered, but he makes value judgements. He says things, like "I just don't understand...." I just can't believe you thought that was ok...." After apologizing he said, "Now, can we stop being sore pusses?"

I understand that the kids and I have annoying habits. I understand annoying habits are "doing" things that are annoying. But, can annoying habits include, not doing something? Like, he might say "It bothers me when you don't cook supper every night." or "It bothers me when you don't get up and help me.

During this time, he didn't ask for help. He made no respectful requests. If he saw something that needed to be done, he would just do it. Then be mad at us for not doing it first, or not helping him.

I don't want to reward his bad behavior, but I also don't want to LB him with my annoying habits either.

Make sure you listen to today's radio show. Although a repeat, it dives deeply into love busters and how conflicts should be handled. I learned a lot and more was refreshed.

Veterans please correct me if I got this wrong.

I think we need to try to be thoughtful of our spouse's perspective, but I don't think it is a love buster not to do something that hasn't been requested of you. If your husband felt that he would like you to have done something, he should have respectfully requested it. A request that you could say no to otherwise it is a selfish demand. If it was something you didn't agree on, then POJA takes over. You maybe or maybe not should have done more during the renovations, but that should have been POJA. However the minute ao, sd or dj start, the conversation ends and if I understood the radio right, he does not get what he wants or you are rewarding bad behavior.

Your husband is making selfish demands and disrespectful judgements.

I listened to the show. Yes, that was us. It was ugly too. We had poja'd awhile ago, how the homeschool and chores would run. But, while the reno was going on, we just couldn't function the same in that environment. DH and I should have given that more consideration and talked about how we would deal with those changes.

I agree that NOW we can get back on our regular schedule. I need to fix the annoying habits. Do I tell him that I'm fixing these because they are my lovebusters? Do I make it clear to him that I'm not doing it in response to his SD and DJ's?

Should I ask him to assure me that "if we mess up again" he won't revert to SDs and DJs? What if he says he can't guarantee that he won't do it again?

The problem is this though...even if you fix all of those love busters. You guys are not getting enough UA time to build in any kind of love bank deposits. So basically, it just gets worn down and worn down and never really built up.

There was a time when H would be on good behavior only while we were on UA time together. During our regular life H would continue to LB me. Whatever gains we made, were soon lost. Eliminating LB's has to come first.

Yes, it took us a long time to figure out our UA. It was going along pretty good, until the renovation started. We logged in 15 hours last week.

I have a question about a radio show this week. They replayed a show from March 5 about apologizing and how to complain.

Dr Harley said a complaint can be about something a spouse doesn't do. So in our case, I asked the question above, How do I handle my H's complaint of not doing the dishes often enough or cooking supper enough? If he says to me, "It bothers me that you don't do this every night." How then can I do it to a level I'm enthusiastic about? Let's say, H wants me to cook 5 nights and week and all the dishes are done before bedtime. Which I don't want to do.

From what I understood Dr Harley saying is that I need to do what my H wishes, in order to show that I care about him. Regardless, if I'm not enthusiastic about doing that much housework. It seems like the magic phrase is "It bothers me when...." Anything less than what "doesn't bother your spouse" isn't an option. But, I thought this would fall under domestic support and thus would be POJA'd?

My H has a high need for domestic support, but I'm not enthusiastic about meeting it to his expectations. The show from March 5, seemed to say that a caring spouse does nothing that bothers the other spouse.

I've received advice here about being enthusiastic while meeting needs. My H would definitely say, "It bothers me that we don't make love five nights a week. But, I'm not enthusiastic about five nights. Anything less, bothers him.

What are your hours for the last 12 weeks? (you should have a record)

Tenacious, write Dr. Harley a letter about this and see if he will answer it on the show.

For Domestic Support, there is a procedure to follow in the Domestic Support chapter of His Needs, Her Needs that is just perfect. Ask your husband if he will follow it with you.

If there's something you are not doing that your husband would like you to do, his "complaint" should be a request - and a request is something you can decline. You don't use "it bothers me when you don't." Instead you use "How would you feel about doing ... ?" and "I'd like it if you would ... "

None of this is MB.

"It bothers me...." is for things you are doing, that you stop doing until you POJA an alternative. Demands cloaked in MB wording are still demands. You have to care enough for the long term relationship to respectfully insist that all solutions are reached by POJA. Capitulation and sacrifice are not part of extraordinary care.

You may want to read his recent book on negotiations

We don't keep the schedules. February and March were anywhere from 10 to 16 hours out of the house. With additional hours for time spent alone in our bedroom from 9 to 10pm.

April was a bust for sure. We were knee deep in construction.

I sent an email to Dr H this morning.

My husband doesn't like Dr H's solution to domestic support. We made the lists. His list is full of stuff he wants done and done frequently, but he doesn't want to do it.

He says because the kids and I make the messes we should clean them up. We dirty most of the dishes, the floors and counters. We leave textbooks and papers about, art supplies.... And he feels like the kids and I are home more, that we have more time available to clean.

Yes, we make our own schedule, but it's not like we are lying about doing nothing all day. We homeschool. Learning is always happening in our house.

His expectation is that learning ends at 3:00. The kids and I straighten the house and I start dinner. But, sometimes we aren't home at three. We might be at a class or running errands after the class.

So far, H has committed to sorting and folding the clean laundry on Saturday morning. I do my own laundry because I like it washed in allergy free soap. And he mows the grass, but it's not exclusive to him; sometimes one of us does it.

The kids and I do everything else.

DH has always made DJs about my level of cleanliness. In our recent argument he said cleanliness is a moral issue. He said things like "I just can't believe....." "I just don't understand..." He went on about how, when he was a kid, nobody had to tell him to clean up his room, or tell him to cut some wood for the fire. He just knew it was the right thing to do.

His judgment hurts me.

Did you tell that it hurts you?

Your husband is trying to persuade you to be clean through moral enlightenment aka disrespect.

On the other hand, you seem to be valuing the kids' home schooling above his need to have order when he comes home.

It seems like he is trying to tell you that he is only enthusiastic with the home schooling as long as you clean up as you go. School teachers have to teach the kids to clean up after each project.

I know that it is easier said than done. I have struggled with this too. However, if you were to acknowledge his feelings then maybe you would brainstorm for ways to end the school day earlier and incorporate the value of respect for their environment into the home school curriculum?

This appears to be an example of how disrespect DEMOTIVATES our spouses (per Dr. Harley). Because he is lecturing you, you have shut down your willingness to brainstorm.

Just musing here.

When couples have been here a while and struggle to see and eliminate their lovebusters, they probably need the online accountability program.

Start keeping them.

Anything less than 15 hours does not count. You need to keep the schedules so you can see what you are actually getting.

And there's your biggest problem.

Yes, I told him.

He says, though, that when he walks in the house after work and the house is a mess and there's no dinner...he is hurt. I'm not meeting his DS need and it hurts him.