Hello all!
I am new to this forum but I have read "His needs, her needs" and the entire website of the basic concepts.
I have been attempting to begin applying these concepts to my life with my husband and have tried to recruit him as well.
Here is our main conflict:
We want to live in different cities. We currently live in northern Minnesota and have for 3 years. He reluctantly agreed to live here after we'd lived in Saint Louis, MO while I was in graduate school. I'm from Minnesota, I love it, and want to live by my parents, friends and in what I feel to be my home. He is from Cuba and I helped him immigrate to the US, where he has a few family members scattered around the country. He can't stand the cold in Minnesota and has come to even hate where we live because of the weather and lack of familiar culture. He has decided he is moving to Austin, TX, has gotten a permanent job there and is leaving in about 2-3 weeks. He also has a relative in Texas that he�s somewhat close with but with whom I don�t have much in common. We couldn't come to an agreement on this one (let alone an enthusiastic agreement) and I'm having trouble applying the policy of joint agreement.
Some background: We have our differences for sure and have had lots of the typical conflicts in marriage, nothing major. To sum up our main conflicts: We have trouble negotiating without using Love busters, lack of good conversation, I have trouble filling his need for sex (he wants to more often than me), we have differing recreational interests (but find some common ones), differing focus in life (I�m focused on stability and having a family, whereas he�s focused on starting a business and adventure), and we have conflicts with domestic support (he expects me to do most of it, I expect him to do his part). We have been married for 6 years, I'm 28, he's 29 and we have no children yet but I really want them. I truly love him but am having trouble trusting him now that he�s made this decision to leave. He wants me to come with him but it�s upsetting that he would leave without knowing if I�m coming for sure. He will very seldom talk to me about conflicts when I ask him to and will occasionally listen when I tell him about Dr. Harley�s concepts but doesn�t do much active participation.
I don�t know if I will go with him. I love him and want the relationship to continue but am having doubts about whether giving up so much for him is worth it. I will be alone there with him in Texas (no friends or family there) and my fear is that he will do this again about a major decision without my consent on the issue. How do I trust him again after this? How do I get him to talk to me? I think Dr. Harley�s concepts would use work for us if he would only try to use them to but he has showed an utter lack of interest and even a resistance to even hearing about them.

I'm sure others with more experience will chime in soon.

I will preface this by saying it is absolutely wrong what he doing (up & moving away). But...

One thing that strikes me, as someone who has been in his position, is that you want to be in YOUR home, your family, your friends, your culture, your language - despite his reluctance. It sounds as if you being near your roots is far more important than for him - but that isn't fair to him either, isn't it?

At any point in the past few years, did you guys discuss a "compromise" location?? What was your "life plan" after he was to come to the US?

I have given up my language, culture, friends, and family for my husband too - it is exceptionally difficult but a choice I made and my husband is more important to me. That being said, he at least agreed to move close to a major city so that I can still occasionally meet/see people in my language/meet other mom friends easier.

I see a lack of compromising or coming to an agreement on BOTH sides here.

If you are trying to recruit him, how can you do it when you don't apply the POJA? The POJA requires ENTHUSIASTIC agreement.

Even if this arrangement was made in the past, you can always go back and say it was wrong for me to go through with this when your agreement was reluctant.

Explain that you are ready and willing to negotiate for a place where you both can enthusiastically agree upon. Apologize to him for subjecting him to live in a place where he is miserable.

So he has basically taken your approach. One thoughtless action follows another.

You can't stop him, but you can ask him to put together a list of places where he might consider living. You do the same, and then see if and where your lists intersect.
If we were to apply the logic you used in suggesting MN, that would be fine, right?

Hopefully, you can see this isn't the way to go. It wasn't when you chose it, and it's not for him either.

However, he's hurt now, and your task will be to find a way to stop the hurt and finding a place where you both are satisfied.

It looks like he hasn't been happy in MN. It looks like both you are looking for your individual happy in things outside one another.

The question is, how do you acknowledge that accepting his reluctant agreement is what got you here, and apologizing to him without simply entering into an agreement where you are reluctant?

I think you start with brainstorming. The list of places each of you makes, where do they overlap?

Dr. Harley talks about a situation similar to this in his book "Love Busters." It is towards the back of the book, under the title "The Unhappy Wanderer." Read it.

The wife moved to make her husband happy, but it was a reluctant agreement and she was emotionally traumatized.

Dr. Harley advised them to move back to their original home town.



You moved to Minnesota with a reluctant agreement from your husband. He is, understandably, distraught. Since POJA has been violated, you need to correct the decision ASAP -- meaning, you cannot stay in Minnesota.

It doesn't mean you necessarily need to move to Austin. But you do need to find a place to live that BOTH of you would be happy.

Thank you for your thoughful replies! I admit that it was wrong of me to pressure him to move to Minnesota, and I've expressed this to him. We didn't have a plan of where we would live when he came to the US 6 years ago, we knew that we didn't agree on it and hoped it would "work itself out." He left Cuba and came anyway because his main objective was to get out of Cuba and he also wanted to be with me. We had to get married for him to leave Cuba but we are in love so we went ahead and did it despite the fact that we hadn't had the luxury of figuring everything out yet. We've now been married 6 years and together for 8.
Needless to say, it has become the largest problem in our relationship and logistically difficult for obvious reasons.
We have brainstormed and the only thing I have been able to enthusiastically agree to has been to stay in Minnesota. The bottom line is that I don't want to move AT ALL. This is the only option that I'm truly ENTHUSIASTIC about. He is willing to move to several different new cities (all over 1000 miles away), because he doesn't really have a "home" here but that doesn't help me much because I don't want to leave my home and my parents.

Thanks for replying. You have a very similar experience as my husband. We are both guilty of not following the POJA on this one because there is no common ground on where to live. Hubby is miserable where I want to live and can't stay here. In order to be together, I need to reluctantly agree to move, which I've been leaning towards for quite some time. I'm worried though that having to violate POJA just to live in the same city together (no matter where we live) is a big mistake. Maybe this means we are not compatible and it's a big mistake to continue to make major violations of POJA to be together. He gave up his family and culture to come to the US and escape his country, not just to be with me. I think that's the major difference between you and my husband. He does love me, but I've always had trouble with having to marry him to be together at all. I didn't want that alterior motive to be there, but we had to get married to continue our relationship and that's what I chose.

And it is no longer an option because you forced him to move there from Saint Louis.

This breech of POJA must be undone. It cannot be undone by you staying in Minnesota.

Start brainstorming other options.

You are not violating POJA by moving away from Minnesota.
You forced him to move there. THAT was the violation.
STAYING in Minnesota is a violation of POJA.
You would be UNDOING the violation of POJA by moving to a place you are both happy with.

I would love to her Dr. Harley's opinion of this situation. Maybe you can email the radio show and ask for his help.

This is the part of POJA I've never understood. She has already said she will only be happy with MN. I don't see an answer.

Waiting with interest to see what the answer might be.

Dr. Harley gave his answer in his book Love Busters. I posted excerpts above.

Her insistance on living in Minnesota is a demand. She violated POJA by forcing her husband to move. Dr. Harley says when POJA has been violated, the violation must be undone as soon as possible. In this case, undoing the violation means moving away from Minnesota. He advised the couple in Love Busters to move back to their original hometown.

Respectful persuasion, step 4:

"Step 4: Give your spouse an opportunity to persuade you."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5040_qa.html

Dr. Harley has reworded respectful persuasion in his more recent editions of Love Busters, so I'm not sure if this is still implicitly included or not, but respectful persuasion is a specific case of his four guidelines for successful negotiation.

"I will only be happy with this one option" is not respectful persuasion; it is a belief that will short-circuit negotiation and make it impossible. A better attitude to take is "I am willing to listen to your ideas and see if they might excite me as well."

So in this poster's case move back to St. Louis (I think I have that city right). But he has a job in Austin and is moving in 2 weeks. So how would that work?

Hopeful,

I suspect you are most "hopeful" that you can convince him to stay in Minnesota.

Since this is not going to happen (as he is willing to move away from his own wife after 3 years of being unhappy living in Minnesota), what would be your next best choice?

Because here you have a major problem: You have effectively told your husband that your(*singular) home & happiness is more important than "our"(the married couple) happiness. You have told him that you care so much more about being close to your family and friends in MN than even *compromise* with him, your own husband.

In a marriage, the happiness of your husband (or wife) comes before family and friends. Your husband's needs are not unreasonable.

Is Minnesota more important than him? Are you willing to end your marriage to stay in Minnesota? Because a marriage will not survive long with one spouse living in a far off state.

I agree. Marriage has to come before FOO and lifelong friends. I would go anywhere my dh wanted me to go. Enthusiastically. And we have only been married 1 year.

She said there are several cities he is willing to live in.
They need to brainstorm together and find a city they would both be happy in.
Right now, she is refusing to brainstorm by putting her foot down and saying "I will ONLY be happy HERE." She is demanding that he just live with the POJA violation. By leaving, he's letting her know that he will no longer live with her demand.

They don't HAVE to go to Austin just because he has a job there.
They don't HAVE to go back to St. Louis if they can find another place they are both happy with.

**EDIT**

I disagree, moving away from Minnesota IS a violation of POJA if I can't make myself enthusiastically agree to it.
So you see my problem: We have no locations that we can both enthusiastically agree to. What do we do from here? Should we violate POJA to be together? Is this a recipe for disaster? Does this mean we are incompatible?

He is feeling trapped in a situation that is making him distraught.
It will probably go a long way with him for him to hear that she is actually willing to consider living elsewhere.
It will probably go a long way with him for her to start brainstorming, and listening to what he would like to do.

It will be interesting to watch. I have a friend who was faced with an even more difficult decision in her marriage.

No, staying is a demand because you forced him to move there. You demanded that you live there, forced him to move, and are demanding that he stay.

You don't need enthusiastic agreement to stop a demand and undo a violation of POJA.


It doesn't mean you're incompatible. It means you are refusing to negotiate and are refusing to undo a violation of POJA.

You are refusing to consider living anywhere else.
You are insisting he live with your demand.

No. It means you do nothing until you are both enthusiastic. You spend that time persuading each other, and allowing yourself to be persuaded, but if you cannot come to an agreement, then you do nothing indefinitely.

They should never have left St. Louis. They should still be there, because there was no enthusiastic agreement to move from St. Louis to Minnesota.

Was it a violation of POJA if he willingly went with his wife to Minnesota 3 years ago, and has "grown to hate" it there during those 3 years?

Ok, but now what? Because see to ME (but we all know I don't know anything) it seems like she should suck it up and go with her dh....leave and cleave. Get enthusiastic.

In practical terms is that much different than 'allow yourself to be persuaded'?

Thanks! I guess this is the answer. Since I can't make my husband "get enthusiastic" about staying, I will have to see if I can get enthusiastic about leaving. I am currently in the process of trying because if not, I will lose my husband. If I can't "get enthusiastic" any ideas of what to do then? I'm just afraid that I will not be able to get enthusiastic (or not truly be enthusiastic) and moving with him will further weaken a relationship that has always been a bit rocky. I may start to resent him about this.

[/quote]

So when the POJA says never do anything without enthusiastic agreement of both mates what it means in tough cases is that one of you needs to 'get enthusiastic'. [/quote]

Her first post said he 'reluctantly agreed.' That doesn't sound enthusiastic to me.

He didn't willingly go. She said he reluctantly moved to Minnesota.

"Allow yourself to be persuaded" doesn't mean "Suck it up" though. It means listening to the other side, and allowing the possibility that the other side has a good idea. And maybe you will be persuaded and enthusiastic.

She doesn't need to suck it up. But it is also not true that Minnesota is the ONLY option that will make her happy. She's allowing that as the ONLY option, though.

She's refusing to do two separate things:

1. Refusing to right the wrong, and undo her violation of POJA by forcing them to move to Minnesota against her husband's wishes.
2. Refusing to negotiate -- which includes brainstorming and the willingness to be persuaded to her husband's ideas.

**edit**

Also, my husband knows how difficult it would be for me to move but he doesn't know that I'm questioning whether I'm going to move or not. I've already reluctantly agreed but am now in the process of convincing myself this is the right thing to do in our relationship.

QFT

The question isn't, "Can I be enthusiastic about living in Austin (or any other place)?"

It's, "HOW can I be enthusiastic about living in Austin (or any other place)?" What would it take to make another city a good place to live?

See your family once a month? Talk to them on the phone every day? Spend 20 hours/week UA time with your husband so you don't miss your family so much? Travel x weekends per month to see all the good sites within 100 miles of your new hometown? Get a puppy? Take up hang gliding together?

Be creative!

I always tell my husband, "I would live in Nunavut if it means keeping our family together" (which is the Arctic territory here).

Having been in a similar situation (not the same, but similar), I can say it was only the desire to build our marriage together and keep our family unit intact that helped us survive the first difficult summer after our big move.

The drive to sustain a marriage/family must more important than friends, other family, jobs, etc. People who put friends/family/career before marriage end up in the divorced statistics.

Now THIS makes sense. But honestly it comes back to she needs to decide if she wants to be with her dh or with her FOO.

Of course she isn't discussing what about Austin would make her happy because she isn't being honest with her dh.

It's true, I shouldn't have married a man from Cuba if I wanted to live in Minnesota. He also shouldn't have married a woman from Cuba if he wanted to live in a warm climate. That's not very helpful to say in this case though. I'm asking for advice and that to me says, "It was a mistake to get married in the first place, you are incompatible, so just leave the relationship."

Well, that isn't quite what I was saying, but I can see it sounds negative.

I guess more what I am saying, 'you married a man from Cuba so why are you so set on living in MN.'?

This is very helpful, thank you!

And FTR, I am currently moving from the city I've been in my ENTIRE adult life (I'm 46) because my dh got a job in a new city. Granted it is only a bit more than a 2 hour move, but puts me 3 hours from my parents who I am very very close to. And it takes me out of the congregation that my son has been in his entire life.

It is just what has to be done.

1. Are you willing to right the wrong of your POJA violation and move away from Minnesota?
2. Are you willing to brainstorm with your husband and decide on a place to live that will make you both happy?

I agree, the drive to keep our marriage together should be our number one in life. I'm just having trouble beleiving that it's his number one priority too. What if it's not and I continue to get ultimatums and "I'm moving to _____" whether you are coming or not? What will be the next city he decides to move to (without my consent) and what if we have kids by then?
I've lost some trust with my husband over this issue. It's true, I accepted his reluctant agreement to go to Minnesota but I never would have left to move to another city without him coming with. He decided to leave before I had agreed to come with and said he was leaving regardless of whether I agreed. This really hurt me and has made it harder for me to decide to follow him there.

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help posters with Marriage Builder's solutions. Sharing personal philosophies that conflict with Dr. Harley's views causes confusion and disruption. Please help this poster with MB solutions or refrain from posting. Thank you.

Any suggestions for how to avoid resentment in the future after making this decision? Even if I do succeed in getting enthusiastic about moving, realistically, I WILL have hardships in moving and I don't want to end up harboring any more resentments towards him.

**edit**

Brainstorm together and find a place that you will both love.

LIKE!

I will have hardships MOVING period. Thus my question, again, any advice on avoiding future resentments about having to move? I will put forth a champion effort to find a way to enthusiastically agree to move to and love Austin! This doesn't change the fact that I will have hardships in being far from my family and hometown, I would be in denial if I thought I could lose some of the closeness with my family and brainstorm my way into not feeling any regret over it.

**edit**

**edit**

But brainstorming is the answer, Hoping. You don't need to force yourself to love Austin. You need to find a place that will make you happy, too.

Being close to your family is not the only thing in life that will make you happy. What would make you happy?

You also need to fall in love with your husband again.
Start this program together.
Get 15-20 hours UA time each week.
Meet each others' intimate emotional needs.
Avoid Lovebusters.

I used to think that living close to my family was the only thing that would make me happy. We moved to live near them. Guess what -- I was still unhappy, because my relationship with my husband stunk.

Now I'm in love with Markos. I would be willing to consider anywhere he wanted to move, even away from my family, if needed. Because our relationship is now more important than my family.

There's more to life that will make you happy than your family.

Added to this, and perhaps even more critical at this point. She's depleted her balance in the love bank with him by insisting that MN is the place to live that she also, and perhaps most urgently needs to get to work meeting his needs, avoiding love busting behavior so that HE falls back into love with her.

After all, someone in love with their spouse doesn't up and move to another city with or without her. She's so depleted the love bank that he's determined it's in his best interests to make this move.

Unless she gets busy doing what it takes to woo him back to her, I don't think any negotiation has a chance. What would be the draw to entering any such negotiations given his prior experience with her?

I think job one is for her to get him to fall in love with her again so such negotiations can take place. If that doesn't happen, I predict nothing else will happen.

She says she loves him, it's time for her to demonstrate that in a fashion that is most meaningful to him.

Thanks, this has been really helpful. I think the main problem is that I need to somehow get my husband involved in the program so we can improve our relationship. I've been trying to start doing it on my own but my husband isn't too interested in it. Any suggestions on making it seem appealing? He doesn't like anything structured, especially involving reading. He also views the program as "more work." I've tried to frame it as improving our relationship together that we'll both benefit from but it didn't seem to hold much weight. I've already read HNHN and the entire basic concepts on this website, couldn't really put it down once I started.

Sure, work on getting him to fall in love with you.

Perhaps you've come across as trying to fix him. I.E. husband, if you do this program, you'll see why we need to stay in MN. Oh, and I don't love you, so you need to do X, Y and Z for me to be in love with you.

Meanwhile, he's probably thinking he's sacrificed all this time in MN, he's miserable, and doesn't feel loved by you, and now you want to fix him.

He's saying he's going to move away, with or without you. Now is not the time to say here is what he needs to do for you to love him. It's time for you to decide if you are going to do what it takes for him to fall in love with you.

If he's in love with you, the program and negotiations become a much easier sale.

Right now, I doubt he's buying much of anything you are selling.

Get him interested in the program by showing how him what he'll get out of the program.

Start meeting his top 5 emotional needs.
Stop lovebusting him.
Stop insisting that he must put up with your demand of living in MN. Tell him you were wrong for forcing that on him.

How long should I do this if there is no response? Dr. Harley says one month in the Plan A, Plan B article (I think it's called unconditional love). If no response after the month, then what? Plan B? It seems a bit drastic. Maybe after the month I can then present the program to him and ask him to participate with me.

I have heard Dr Harley discuss something similar that happened in his own marriage. I wish I could remember where it was; either on the radio show or on the online seminar programme.

Dr and Mrs Harley are from California. I believe they grew up there; certainly he says that both sets of parents lived there and were available to babysit when Dr Harley's children were young.

I think the move to Minnesota happened because a friend or colleague asked him to run a clinic - or chain of clinics - there.

Mrs Harley did not want to move, but he negotiated with her. She had a few very strong objections, and I think the distance from family and the climate were two of them. He asked her to give moving a try for a period of time (I can't remember; three months, perhaps, at the outset). If she found that period tolerable, then they could negotiate another three months.

He made a promise that if after some time (again, I can't remember; either at any time at all, or after the first three months) Mrs Harley wanted to go back to California, he would agree without hesitation. He said that they kept their house in California for that reason, and they still own it today.

As it turned out, Mrs Harley has never wanted to back to California, because there were enough things that benefitted them in Minnesota to make her enthusiastic about staying (good friends, schools etc). However, she still has the absolute right to move them back there immediately.

I think a few things could be learned from this example.

You, Hoping, need not be enthusiastic about the location at the outset, but you should be enthusiastic about finding a solution that makes both of you happy. Therefore, moving somewhere must be considered by you, and you must make a genuine effort to work with your husband to make you both happy.

The MB programme encourages a spouse to try and see something from the other spouse's point of view, and to acknowledge that there is merit in what they propose. If you give Texas a try, making a serious attempt to invest in your marriage, you might like it. You cannot know until you try.

If your H hadn't already got a job in texas, choosing somewhere else would be easier. Since your H has a job there already, it would seem a good idea to make this the first choice of location.

Of course, your H should not be violating POJA (even though he does not agree to it yet) either. He has issued an ultimatum, which is a lovebuster, and that is unacceptable, but there might be way to change his selfish demand into a thoughtful reuest. If you were to negotiate an agreement like Mrs Harley's - that you will give Texas a try, and he, in appreciation, will agree to move away after a period of time if you are unhappy there, that would be a win-win solution, I think.

Don't do this with the intention of being miserable in Texas to prove that you need to move back to Minnesota. Give it an honest shot.

Sugercane, Dr. Harley tells that story at the end of Love Busters, in the same section that I quoted from earlier: The Unhappy Wanderer.

EXCELLENT point!