Hello to you all,
I am new to the marriage builders as I only found it today while looking for info on marriage problems.

A few months ago my wife said to me that she wants to separate as she no longer feels "in love" with me and the thought of being romantic on intimate with me all but makes her sick. We have two small kids and I had noticed after the birth of my daughter (22 months) that she had begun a slow withdrawal of intimacy especially sex and when it happened it was because I 'begged' her for it. I thought that this was just due to tiredness or lack of interest in sex but now I see it was more than that.

The last few months since this revelation have not been good and I can admit that I have taken the news badly and feel I have pushed her further away. We are going through conselling but it is not helping. She all but left the other day but I convinced that we should try to build a friendship and see where that goes so she relented but I feel she will still separate just at a later date. I want a wife not a platonic friend.

The ideas expressed on this website really interest me and I really want to give them a go but my wife does not and will not read or listen to any info I find. I understand affection is not possible for her now and am willing to give her space on that but without it I feel we will become brother and sister and therefore make recapturing these feelings harder in the long run.


HELP!!!!!

nb, do you think it's possible your wife could be having an emotional or physical affair? Do you know how she spends her spare time? Whom she talks/e-mails with? I'm not saying that's necessarily the case. (My wife & I went through a spell where, about 21-22 months after our first child was born, where she basically told me she had no interest in sex. I don't know whether that was tiredness or hormonal flux or what, but maybe it's something that happens post-partum. It turned out to be only a temporary issue for us.) But in our case, there was never any hint of a thought about separation; and your wife's saying she feels "not in love" with you is a common tell-tale sign that she may have another person (love interest) on the side as a point of comparison. You may wish to consider snooping around a bit to rule this out.

I am sorry you are having trouble in your marriage.


The things you have described are classic signs of an affair. Definitely snoop around and see what it happening when you are not around. Check phone records and slap a keylogger on any computer she uses. Take a look at the "operation investigate" forum for guidance.

Meanwhile, most marriage counseling is useless. Often, couples will sit around talking about what is wrong in their marriage and feel worse afterwards. Instead of counseling with someone who does not know what they are doing, get two of Dr. Harley's books - "Lovebusters" and "His Needs, Her Needs for Parents".

AM

nb1712, I am sorry, but it is very likely your wife is having an affair. She has made all the classic statements of a woman in an affair, wants to "separate," she loves you but is not in love with you. The latter statement means she has a new point of comparison.

Do not ask her. Just quietly start snooping on her. If she uses a computer, install eblaster on it. If she has a cell phone, install spyware on it. eblaster also has cell phone spyware that is very good.

When you get the goods, don't accuse her or let on that you know. Come back here with the evidence and we will help you save your marriage.

I am sorry this is happening to you, but we have saved many marriages from this. Don't despair!

Thanks for the replies. My first thought when all this happened was that she was seeing someone else as well especially as she spends a minimum 2 hours at the gym every week night. So I did do some investigating and I am fairly confident that she is not having an affair and I dont think she has met someone she wants to be with.

During all this she constantly tells me how controlling and manipulative I have been for years and I must admit that I do like to be in control of my life and our finances and have in the past questioned her about silly purchases or have reasted badly to her wanting to constantly go out drinking with friends without me.

I have taken all this on board and have made a conscious effort to not be this way over the last year or so but still nothing from her.

I want her to try this program out but she wont even read the basic concepts of the website. She has quit on the relationship and will not listen to anything anyone says about it.

You're missing something. Does she work? She is most definitely having an affair. Have you started going to the gym with her? Her affair partner may be there.

When she gets ready to go work out, go with her (don't tell her ahead of time.) Tell her you want to start working out with her. Don't let her tell you No.

See who's at the gym. I can almost guarantee the OM is there.

+1

If she goes straight from work, show up.

I have snooped through her phone and her facebook account in the past and have found no evidence of an affair so I still doubt this is the case but I will suggest working out together and see what the reaction is.

Putting and affair to the side. How should I start rebuilding my marriage?

Unless the husband's actions have risen to the level of "abuse", wives do not run FROM someone; they run TO someone.

She's having an affair, and she's probably already fairly well invested in it.

I suggest you click "notify" at the bottom of this note and request that the mod on duty moves this to the SAA board.

Nb1712, it's important that you step it up and do a better job of sleuthing if you want to save your marriage. In order to rebuild your marriage you must first root out the affair. Put some spyware on her phone and hire a PI. A PI can get the goods in a couple of days.

WHAT? You can't 'put the affair to the side and rebuild your marriage. Are you kidding? You're going to have to end the affair before you can have any hope of rebuilding your marriage. I think you're wondering what to do in the meantime: Go here: Plan A

NB, this is another red flag for an affair. Women who desire to go out drinking with friends without their husband on a regular basis are looking for attention from other men. You had every right to react badly to this - it was you wanting to protect your marriage.

The reason why people are telling you to find the affair is that you won't be able to do anything to save your marriage until the affair has stopped. So, if there is one, step one is to find and expose it. Many people are very good at hiding affairs and do things that seem out of character to hide them like having a separate cell phone, going to the affair partner's house instead of the gym, etc.

Ok. Lets clear up a few things. The post about drinking with friends was badly worded and these are things from several years ago. My point was that I know I have reacted badly and jealously to some situations and as such my wife is justified to make comments about me being controlling.

I think it best if one of the moderators just closes this thread as I am becoming annoyed with the responses. I DO NOT BELIEVE MY WIFE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR!

I came to these forums seeking useful information from people who have been through similar situations that I could apply to my marriage to improve our relationship. I have not gotten anything useful and in fact my situation has worsened because my wife has read the replies and has become upset by them. So much so she has once again begun to look for other places to live.

Thank you all

nb,

I'm sorry you are upset by the responses. However, it is pretty obvious to anyone else that something else is going on. I am an athlete and mother to young babies myself, same age too (22 months), never in a million years would I think to spend 2+ hours a night away from my husband and children at the GYM.

If your wife is reading this, then YES I AM TALKING TO HER, you know as well as I do that we young mothers do not spend 2 hours+ a night away at the gym from our husbands and families when our marriages are in trouble, hell, even when our marriages are doing well. So smarten up my dear. Fortunately for you (?), your husband is willing to believe anything but what is obvious.

Nb, we will be here for you if you decide to do more investigation to find out what is really going on. You cannot fix your marriage without eliminating the obvious.

nb's wife, if you are reading, all I can say is you know everyone changes over time, that's part of life. And you and nb are in a place where you can take this process and create a beautiful life together. I know you believed in nb at some point, because he is a man worth believing in. Here he is, the same man, willing to make a new life, a new marriage, with you. You all can do this, together. Whatever you all decide I wish the best for you.

If you decide to separate, please keep an open mind with it, wait and see if the cooling off of separation makes you feel differently.

Thank you NewEveryday for your kind words. All I want is a chance to work things out and for her to really try to rebuild our marriage but she will not do it. I dont undestand why she would not do whatever it takes. Instead she chooses to shut me out and when I suggest things that can help like MB she refuses them. I believe separation is inevitable because she will not let me back into her own INDEPENDENT LIFE.

Ok quick update and further question. Last night we had a good night together, had a couple of drinks, shared a lot of laughs and had fun together. It was good. I would have liked it to progress a bit further to a stage where we would be affectionate together, not necessarily SF as I know she is not there yet but my wife was not interested. Says she does not want that.

We did the EN questionaiire and I have been working hard at meeting all her needs, which of course are the non intimate ones. So I am a little frustrated that she wont even try to start meeting my EN. I have kept that frustration in check as I know this will set us back but any ideas how to get her to want intmacy back in our marriage? DO I just have to be patient and wait for her? If so I am not sure she will ever initiate.

Whoa! I'm not sure where NewEveryDay got her insight. Her response to you is all warm and fuzzy...AND MEANS NOTHING. If your wife is having an affair, it will destroy your marriage. NB, is your wife reading here?

NB, I KNOW you don't want to hear this, my friend. I KNOW you don't want to belive it. I KNOW you want the folks here to give you a work-around and/or a solution to getting the wife you love to be receptive to your efforts.

Honey, it just isn't going to happen in the way you want it to. I say that to you like I would to my own brother or sister. It's just not going to happen.

NB, I KNOW you don't want to believe it, but your wife is involved with someone, even if in her head and heart only. Emotional? Dunno. Physical? Dunno. It may be "over" by now. Meaning, she has broken it off for now.

Are you willing to accept that as a fact?

She read an annoymous forum that is accusing her of a current affair, and and was so freaked that she is going to move out?

Think, man. Think. Is this logical?

NB...............

Hear this: She WILL NOT BE OPEN TO YOUR TRYING TO MEET HER ENs.

Your patience is doing NO GOOD, BUT DOING DAMAGE. You are a doormat to her now. She has no respect for you, and she is not even remotely interested in meeting your ENs.

I'm sorry that this hurts. Please, please listen here. Help is right here...for you and for your wife.

You have to face the fact that your wife is COMPARING YOU to OM. He is her hero. It makes zero difference what you do now. Until you address this, expose and make this dude a part of your compost pile figuratively.

You are giving in to him, your WW sees OM as a good guy. YOU are the secondary prize. Get that?

She is having an affair.

That is why she is running for the hills now that she has read the advice to you.

So sorry. It is probably at the gym.

Yep. NB, no one decides to move out of their marriage because someone online suggested they were having an affair. Doesn't that seem a little...odd to you? Sounds like she's trying to manipulate you into not reading things here. Hmmm...what do you suppose those things could be?

OK, so last night you had a good time with her. Does that make up for the fact that today or tonight or tomorrow she will be having a good time with OM? If you and she are getting along so well, why is she moving out?

Regardless of whether there is an affair or not she refuses to forgive me for things she keeps dragging up from the past which have been blown all out of proportion and now make me look like the worst husband in the world. I am not. Until she is willing to move on I know there is no hope and no doubt I will be posting here soon requesting your sympathy at the death of my marriage. Thank you for your replies

She would blow things out of proportion BECAUSE of an affair, not regardless of one. She will not see things as they really are until you blow up her fantasy life.

Will you snoop, expose and fight for your marriage or snivel off? Right now you appear very weak from this side of the net, and chicks don't swoon over weak men.

You have no idea what you are talking about and are making serious strategic mistakes that will cause the death of your marriage. Your marriage can be saved. It can't be saved if you throw it away.

Well, she needs to justify to others why she is leaving you. She is clearly having an affair (yes, I know you don't believe that) and if she left a normal husband/marriage for another man, she'd look like a bad mother and wife. So, in order to make herself look better, she'll demonize you and throw you under the bus.

Don't you notice that ALL cheating women seem to claim their husbands were neglectful or abusive? Don't you notice that ALL cheating men seem to claim their wives refused sex or 'grew apart' after kids?

Same thing, different day. It's a script and it's predictable.

Can I be blunt with you? She is idolizing another man (a man who she doesn't have to deal with joint finances, disputes over diapers, sharing dishwasher duty). If you sit back and let this continue without being proactive, you're going to justify her thought that you are weak and that her new man is some sort of brave stallion or whatever...

Take the bull by the horns. Even if you don't want to save your marriage, at least stand up for yourself.

nb1712. In all honesty and sincerity, you HAVE gotten good advice from others who at one time were in the same situation as you.

Look at the sig line of the people posting to you. They HAVE recovered their own marriages. But they first had to open their eyes to possibility of an affair. Then take the steps to KILL it.

You are discrediting the very people who have been there AND recovered.

Do you really believe your W is leaving because of posts on an internet forum? Really?

He is in denial..

Ok. I hear all your comments and whilst I dont want to believe what you are saying I know why you are. So all you "experts" out there need to read the post titled 'DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO' by punky81. Read it and know that punky81 is my wife and correlate the two versions together and then cast your high powered judgement. I did not want to reveal the connection as I thought that we might get good info from two different versions of the same problem but I am annoyed at some of the labelling you people use and hope that this may get you to see bothe sides of the argument.

When your wife is having an affair, it can't get any worse. Your wife upset and having an affair is not worse than your wife content and having an affair, because your wife having an affair is the worst thing that could happen.

What's worse than your wife having an affair is your wife having an affair and you not knowing. Now that you know it is possible, things just got slightly better, because now you can do something about it. Before, you were powerless, which is worse.

Imagine you were seriously injured in a car wreck. You have a horrible pain on the right side. Slowly you look over there to discover your right arm is missing. You may feel a sudden surge of fear and pain, you may scream, but things did not just get worse; things were already worse; the only difference is, now you know how bad things are.

We read it. And know you are in denial.

How come she has not returned to reply on her thread?

Have either one of you read the Basic Concepts here?

You'll find a page in there on how one person can turn a relationship around. If you don't think an affair is the issue, start with that. I'm here to tell you as a man you have more potential to succeed at that if you are on board at actually following the plan.

The secret: read everything, listen to everything, do everything. Listen to the radio show every day, and read every article on this site, and you will start seeing what to do, and we can help motivate you to do that.

Can you do that?

nb1712.



I read your W thread and I don't see that she really made any effort except one long post about her unhappiness. This looks like a text-book case of a person in an affair who has come here and made a post and then took off. She can now say that she tried just about everything and it didn't work. Building a case to justify her leaving. Sorry honey, I just don't love you anymore.


I am no expert and my judgement is not high powered... but I have seen this scenario played out many times here. Just saying - you asked.

Good luck nb1712. We are here if you change your mind about us.

I was in denial too. For a year. Almost lost my family.

I hate denial.

Ask her to take a poly. That is the least she could do for you before abandoning you.

The day I asked my FWH to take a poly is the day my denial ended.

I know I'm probably going to get jumped all over posting in here but really feel I'm entitled to my say. It's already been decided by everyone in here that I must be having affair. It couldn't possibly be right that a person would want to end a relationship without there being another person involved. I don't have male friends, I don't even have male aquaintances. Yes I go to the gym Mon - Fri (count out travel time, my workouts last approx 1hr 30 mins). Weekends are family time. Why do I train 5 days a week at the gym? I am in comp prep for my very first Figure comp this coming September, I have a ways to go to get comp ready and it does require a lot of dedication and committment. Never have I had a passion like this before, and something that I could actually be good at This is a new passion of mine that has developed in the last 6 - 12 months or so. I am a stay at home mother, my kids have been my life while my husband works. I do everything with my kids and never leave their sides. I am at home with every single day, occasionally I take them to a local play centre. I don't go anywhere, I rarely see friends. I have 1 female training partner who has been a great friend while going through these marital problems and we have similar fitness goals (and no, nothing going on with her I promise!). My gym is my 1 outlet. I usually go around 6:30pm when the kids are going to bed and am home between 8 - 8:30pm (this is all counting travel time as well). We then have diner together and 'our time'. Neither of us go to bed early so this has been an issue until recent times, when I finally found something I wanted to persue and dedicate time into.

We have read the Basic Concepts and filled out questionaires, we are also going to relationship counselling, something I tried to get my husband to do with me for months before he finally agreed to come along. To say I haven't tried or don't care is very unfair. Of course I care for my husband. But we have spent 10 years together and you do not know our history. My husband is a good man and a wonderful father, but he has not been an easy person to live with and has often taken on the role of 'father' to me, especially when I stopped working to have our firstborn. I could not do anything without seeking permission, buy anything without being questioned. It has been a very difficult household to live in, in recent years. An affair is not on my mind nor has there even been an opportunity for one to take place. As I said, the assumption I'm having an affair has already been made, my husband can do what he likes, snoop until his heart is content, hire all the PI's in the world to delved into my past and follow me, but nothing will be found because I have been true to my husband. I may be unhappy with him, and I may have doubts about whether I want to continue in my marriage, but if we separate then it WILL NOT be the result of an affair. If I want to be with someone else, I would have left long ago. I'm not a bad person. I'm a very good person, good friend, good mother and have always been an honest, faithful wife. Have I become selfish in recent time. Yes. Do I have separate interests from my husband - yes, just 1, which is my training for Figure Comps. My husband made one remark in an earlier post about my 'constant need to go drinking'. I am not adrinker and he knows this. I had a friends 30th birthday recently where we had a night away, and I went to visit my sister in another city last month ad yes we had a night out with FEMALE friends but were home, on both occasions at a reasonable hour. The time I had nights out were before I had my childen, over 5 years ago when working and we had a couple work functions (Xmas party, birthday and going away party), but that's it. He has always had his separate hobbies with golf where he plays twice a week and is gone for 4-5 hours both days. Yet I get 'in trouble' for my gym time, my one outlet, my one bit of 'me' time.

Every time we seem to have a break through, I get pressured for more progress, or for more intimacy. I try, but it is not comfortable. I have a lot of resentment for my husband right now and I find it very difficult to want to be 'close' to him.

Nothing else to add, I really just wanted to add my two cents. All the talk of affairs has really only worsened things in our relationship. I'm not lying, not in denial. But there are many things that gotten us to where we are right now. But it does not involve a third party. Not all relationship problems are because of affairs.

Thank you for reading...

Anyone with half a brain will erase their phone logs and facebook messages.

You need to put a GPS & VAR in the car and actually check her phone records online and put a keylogger on the home computers. This is Snooping 101.

Now that she knows about MB and knows that you have been advised about the fact that she is probably having an affair, she could have already taken things further underground.

It's really too bad because an affair is something that can be overcome but STEP ONE is coming out of the denial and getting the proof. Sounds like she has already set the stage to leave and claim that she did "everything to try to work on the M".

punky, this sounds like a typical situation that can be turned around if you both follow the program here. I advise the two of you to stick to posting on your own threads, and we can probably help you follow Dr. Harley's program, if you are both willing to give it a try.

One thing you will have to do is be completely transparent. Can you be completely honest and transparent with your husband about how all your time is spent? If you can do that, there will be no further talk of affairs, and it'll be easy to move on to the next steps of the program. If you've read the Basic Concepts, you've learned how people fall in and out of love.

We can help your husband learn not to pressure you.

You are right. We should all be ashamed. I wonder if your husband would be willing to spring for a polygraph to clear your good name? It is the LEAST he can do to repay you for this insult to your honor. Just think, if people here smell an affair, so do folks in your every day lives, so passing a polygraph would shut everyone up real quick!

How about taking a polygraph to put us all in our place?

You mean aside from the two hours a day that you go to the gym, right?

How will you support yourself after the separation? Are you ok with only having your kids 50% of the time?

Of course I can, and have always been that way. He always knows where I am, always knows what I'm doing, where I'm going, what I'm spending. We have never kept secrets, sure there have been times I've looked into things, such as my Figure comp etc, without him knowing, but only because I get such negative reactions, I like to have answers for all his questions. I don't sneak around and never have. I am the one who came to him with my problems within themarriage and I was also the one pushing for us to make things work.

SuzieQ you obviously missed the part in my post when I said I go to the gym when my kids ARE IN BED AT NIGHT! And they're with their dad, hardly constitutes as 'leaving them'. Yet my husband plays golf twice a week and is gone from his kids up to 10 hrs, as well as the hours he works. I am training for a specific event coming up in the coming months, like most athletes, it requires dedication and commitment, and I make sure that time is spent after my kids have gone to bed. And I am home with them every single day and on weekend, never away from them. Ever.

Melody Lane - I've obiously given this some thought. I will go back to work part time, I am studying via correspondance at the moment so the plan is to start my own personal training business regardless if I'm with my husband or not, this way I can work the hours I want. My son will be starting school next year and my parents and husbands parents are close by to help if needed. The government is actually pretty good here in Australia for single parents. I'm not saying it won't be hard, but it's doable and manageable.

Would you two be willing to spend 20 hours of UA time together?

Time means:
- before 21:00
- no bickering/arguments allowed during this time
- spend as much as possible on the imtimate needs:
conversation, sexual fulfillment, affection,etc
- preferrably spend a considerable amount of time out of the
house
- do fun things together (what did you do when you fell in love)

And you and your husband should try to avoid love busters. Obviously it is important for you that you husband does NOT offer unasked for advice, however well meant.

You can always consider the nice policies of the australian government afterwards. Also, plan your workout scedule at a gym where they have child care, so you can do it during the day and not take away time with your husband.

Also, the husband should stop golfing altogether for the next couple of months, because his family is falling apart and he is golfing. Maybe the two of you can golf together after that.

Soooo, if the two of you start being nice to one another (even if you do not feel like it in the beginning) and spend 20 hours of good quality time as pictured above together, I would bet you will come to see the one you fell in love with again. It may take some time, but hey, divorcing takes up a lot of time also.

The biggest trap right now is, that you do not want to spend time with your spouse, because it is uncomfortable and painful and boring and annoying you want to flee away from each other.
That will not change, unless, you have tried the above for 2 weeks - 3 months, depending on how much energy you invest and how good you get in avoiding love busters. But you will see change coming.

Do not give up yet. You have not deserved it. First try to find the one you love, again, under all of the mess you piled up.

God bless you in your efforts,

Happyheart


P.S.
Being a single parent may seem like a good option to you now, because it takes away some of the hassle and pain. But if you ever experienced how lonely you can be if your child had done something great and you do not really have anyone to share it with... Noone will likely love your children like your spouse. Your arguments will also not get better once you separate. You may have to fight your ex every step of the way over simple things like hobbies, overnight stays with grandparents, vacation etc. Please think of that before NOT making the effort.
Last but not least, you will save thousands and thousands of dollars not divorcing.

Great advice happyheart but it is the same thing I have been trying to get going for the last few weeks. Unfortunatley punky81 will not do these things. "It is over" for her. She will never love me again and frankly does not even like me. There is absolutley, categorically no way she will spend time on the intimate needs and I hope she replies to this with a reason why. She seems to think we have to BE in love to fulfill the intimate ENs. Whereas I think that is backwards and to fall in love we have to pursue these intimate needs first no matter how uncomfortable at the outset. I really hope she listens to your advice but I know she will not.

I believe the past is the past and should be left there. We have a real chance at a happy marriage but she is not allowing it because she constantly relives the negative moments from the past, whilst neglecting the positive.

Punky and nb,

Figure comps are not a need.Comp training and dieting makes one irritable, less able to focus on life and family (yes, I know, I have done it myself). That is really not an appropriate goal when one is planning to separate their family. Put your kids first. Golfing, is not a need. Get a babysitter and golf together (or go to the gym together, whatever), but leading separate lives has left you where? Right here.

You guys have children, including very young ones, you guys at least owe it to them to give this a proper shot. The day you decided to get married and have these children is the day you decided to put your family and children first, especially if you are considering breaking the family up. Putting your marriage first IS putting your children first.

Punky, I guess you are new to bb/figure/bikini whatever your division. DO keep in mind that competitions contribute to excessive independent behaviours and in my 8 years (!) of BB/figure, I have witnessed numerous divorces as a result of putting it before their families. This is NOT the hobby for someone whose family is on the verge of collapse.

As others have said, complete transparency.

No, I didn't miss your point. I would never leave my children every night for two hours at 6:30 at night for working out, period. Not to mention, I am in a workout group with about 15 other ladies, mostly moms, very devoted for fitness and none of them would do that either.

Besides, if you are that devoted a mom as you are making yourself seem, why aren't you more interested in saving your M? I am not nearly as devoted as you are (I am not a SAHM, I do leave my children's side, etc) but it KILLS me to be putting my children through separation/divorce. It KILLS me that they are not with me all the time and there will be birthdays and holidays when I won't have them with me.

You have a H who is posting here and willing to do some work and you have a wealth of knowledge on how to have a romantic and passionate M at your fingertips and you are unwilling to work on it?? Sorry, doesn't make ANY sense to me at all. Unless there is something that has shifted to a higher priority than what would be best for your children and family...

I agree with SusieQ.

Punky, you seem to have gone from one extreme to the other. You've gone from 100% mom to now rebelling from it and seeking an independent life of your own. This is what happens when you don't strive for balance between motherhood, marriage, and yourself.

Of course, if you spend 100% of your time dedicated to your children and your marriage/yourself is put on the wayside, you will start to idolize something else to assert your independence. However, one extreme to another is never the answer.

It's about balance. Those are two hours each night that you could be spending trying to work through MB materials (which your husband is now WILLING to do) and keep your family together. Look, there comes a point where many men (and perhaps nb will agree) simply don't BELIEVE it when their wives complain until it's late. And that's not until they realize that their wife is not nagging but actually serious about their complaints, that it is too late.

He knows now. He wants to make the effort. NOW he finally "gets it". You owe it to your vows and family to at least try now that you have a willing partner.

A comp is simply a distraction from what is important to your life... it is all consuming, even for a single girl. A married woman with kids whose marriage is in trouble, you might as well just put the nail in the coffin and that's not fair to your family.

Okay. We now know you are willing to do what it takes to be open and transparent to your husband, which will prevent an affair and also serve to help make deposits in your account in his Love Bank.

So, next up: what are your complaints about the marriage? By the way, this works better if you keep your thread and he keeps his.

A lot of men fail on their own to resolve the complaints their wives have on the marriage. We can help with that. Can you produce a list of your complaints?

There's a form here that may help you make sure you cover everything:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4506_mpa.html

punky and nb1712,

Something you should both know about counseling is that most counselors really suck. Most of them do not know how to save marriages, do not know how to resolve the problems that are in marriage. Many of them focus on trying to train people to get used to living with the problems. Eventually all the husband or wife can think of is getting away from the problems which are never getting better!

Dr. Harley's approach focuses on changing the behaviors that affect our spouse, which resolves the problems and changes the marriage from miserable to happy. A lot of what he says is completely contradictory to what a lot of marriage counselors say. BUT, most of what they say is not research proven at all, and Dr. Harley has been collecting data on people who have followed his methods for decades. People who follow the plan recover the romantic love in their marriage. People who don't, don't.

punky, what do you think of Dr. Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html


Do you think you could agree to live this way, if your husband would also agree to it?

You guys could turn this around if you would pick common recreational activities and "escape" together, rather than individually.

I am flattered if you think, that I have elegantly lined out Dr. Harleys advice here.
Please take a good look at �our post again though. You can learn a lot by just reading how you relate to things.

You basically say: Great advice BUT > here is the reason she won't do it - it is her fault<
This may be true or it may only be 20% true but there are a few important notions in your answer:

1
The past is in the past and should be left there

That is what you say, but your post is littered with things she failed to do in the past weeks etc. That's neither interesting nor helpful.

2
You complain she will categorically not meet intimate needs. I assume you mean sex, affection and intimate conversation.

My friend, she will neither have sex with you nor tell you her innermost feelings, because you are not her friend. She does not even like you. Would you want to have sex with darth vader? What will she gain from it? She will feel absolutely used and probably horrible during and some time afterward. Forget having this emotional need met at this point.

As to intimate conversation, why would she like to talk to you if she expects you to point out where she is wrong and could have done better? Have you ever just listened to her and not talked back? Please read up on the friends of good conversation. Use conversation to get to know better, to find out how she thinks. Not to tell her your opinion on things.
The most intimate need she will maybe let you meet could be a back scratching (not leading to anything else) of a foot massage. You have to start small here.

3
You are thinking for her (she will never... she won't... she will basically never change for the better???) You are telling us what YOU think is in her head and I would consider it a disrespectful judgement.

Have you had any chances to meed her EN's in the past week(s)? It is expected that she does not want to spend time with you because she is not in love with you (and possibly comparing you to someone else). You can probably turn your marriage around by becoming a better husband using the programm. You have to get this jump-started. Call plan A and get her on board later. So stop looking for negatives in her and keep working the plan yourself.

Good luck, Happyheart

Sometimes it helps to converse with a professional counselor together and separately. They can listen and proffer suggestions if the two of you are willing to try to work out your troubles. No one can modify another person or change their mind. A counselor can also assist you and your wife learns about your alternatives and habits to live independently if it comes to that. You need to commune with each other. Both of you have issues and thoughts concerning what might have gone wrong and ideas about how some things can or can't be resolved. If counseling is not wanted or does not help, or if she has already decided the marriage is over, there is nothing you can do but let her go. You both need to try to keep the divorce from getting nasty. Good luck.

Spoken like a true counsellor!

Hooray HappyHeart! Great post.

NB1712, you are receiving great advice here.

Praying for you and Punky.

Punky, I can attest that my first marriage was very painful and all I could think about was how to escape the pain. I did it the wrong way: affair. Now that I'm married a 2nd time, I can see that this marriage has just as many challenges. Not fun. Believe me, you'll wish you were working on your marriage with the father of your children someday, not some step-dad (meaning no disrespect to my H, it's just that I've found the "glue" harder to produce in my 2nd marriage)

I am sorry it took so long for NB to step up and want to work on your marriage. I'm sorry it took the threat of separation. But he's ready now.

NB, she's on her way out and needs you to prove you care about HER - not only about yourself, which is what you've BEEN doing. Please do it. You may have to "prime the pump" as Dr. Harley says: offer unconditional love & care for a time without expecting anything in return. I think it was yesterday's radio program where he talked about that for a long time. You might want to check it out. (Radio archive Segments #03718 and #03719 from 3.26.12)

A word of warning, NB: Punky will likely enter the state of conflict when she comes out of withdrawal. She'll probably start telling you everything that's been upsetting her over the years. This is actually a good sign: it means she is sharing her deepest feelings with you. If you can stay patient and caring, she will enter the stage of intimacy, and THEN you will have a shot at winning her back.

You can do it. You have to be strong, but you can do it.

Well she has decided to end it. No thought of trying to fix it or any willingness to make it work. Zhamila I have done nothing but try to be the unselfish husband and expect nothing in return for the last few weeks as I realised I was pressuing her to much but she is not interested. I can do nothing as I watch my life spin out of control simply because she will not allow me a chance to be her husband. Now she says we will separate (not legally) and live in the same house for the kids but sleep in separate bedrooms and not be a married couple in any way. Can I do that? For my kids I would do anything. Do I want that? No. I want my wife back to the person she used to be. So I will stay for the kids, try to avoid the love busters and ignore my own emotional needs.....for a time

I am sorry to hear this. What you describe is not a separation though. It is a classic stunt usually employed by manipulative wayward wives. They move into the guest bedroom, pronounce themselves "separated" and then start running around like an alley cat in heat. Is her plan to start dating?

Have you been snooping to rule out an affair?

I would do some serious snooping and NOT cooperate with her "separation" ploy. You are not "separated" if you still live together.

MelodyLane. Again this forum heads in the wrong direction. She will not be out there like an alley cat as you say, that is just not who my wife is. She is doing this for our kids so that they can have both parents around and I guess for herself so she does not miss out on things with them and for me so I dont either. Say what you will but I am grateful she came to this decision because it means I dont lose my kids. Whatever she does outside the marriage is up to her and her conscience. I do not believe she will be looking for other people. I still hold out faint hope that we may be able to reconcile one day when she finally loses some of her hate and resentment but it will take a long time

If she were doing this for your kids, as you say, she would be working on your marriage. But she is not. What is best for your kids is to have 2 in love parents in a secure marriage. That is in your children's best interest. The only interest served by her moving into the guest bedroom and announcing she is "separated" - when she is actually not - is her OWN selfish interest. It does not help you or your kids one bit. I suspect she believes it will enable her to cat around in the mistaken notion that calling herself "separated" is an entitlement to adultery. But, that is not how it works in the real world.

Many a wayward wife has pulled this stunt in order to maintain the security of her home and her husband while she carries on an affair. Staying in the home makes her feel less guilty about breaking up your marriage.


As long as she is married, nothing she does is "outside the marriage." Everything she does is your business and your childrens business because it direclty affects you all. And it will be a disaster to you mentally and to your children if she commits adultery while operating out of your family home. If your wife does "see" other people it will be ADULTERY, plain and simple. Moving into the guest room does not entitle one to commit adultery. If she does commit adultery it will be a horrible example to set for your children. Hopefully you are not signing up for that.


First off, you have to split up in order to "reconcile." You have not split up. Your wife is simply sleeping in the bedroom. And your bad marriage will not get better without a plan. Hope is not a plan.

I feel sad for you and your kids because of what you are facing. Hopefully you wake up at some point and start taking steps to save your marriage.

nb1712,

Whatever she does outside the marriage is up to her and her conscience.

The effects of what she does outside of marriage will however bear heavily upon you and your children.

Your W wrote about entering a fitness competition I would assume she is very attractive. I can tell you from experience that it is very difficult to be married to a good looking woman who is unavailable to you. You can double that in the case where she is more attractive than you are, as many people have innocently reminded me. I hope you are able to work this out and don't end up doing all the lifting in your sex life for 20+ years the way I did.

God Bless
Gamma

nb, have you taken any of our advice to snoop and rule out an affair?

Bit ofa catch up.

Melodylane, I did some snooping, was caught in her facebook account and this has done far more harm then good. She no longer trusts me and this has pushed her further away. Also I realise I have trying to push intimacy on her too much as she does not want it but I do and find it difficult to accept the constant rejection and this is causing further friction between us.

She is staying in the house still for the kids but she says we are "separated" and wants to remove wedding rings. She keeps saying the relationship is over and she hates me and will never entertain thoughts of trying to make things better and I should go and see a psychologist because I am a fool to try and want to work things out. The worst part is through all this I still only see myself being with her although I feel some temptation from co-workers at the moment simply because my emotional needs are not being met. And despite the earlier post I am not unattractive in my own right, even though my wife is an atrtactive woman.

I have tried to set out a plan for a gradual recovery of small affectionate touches, hugs and kisses over a long period with definitive boundaries at each step so we can slowly rebuild what has been lost but she will have none of it.

Does anyone have any ideas? If I back way off I feel that will definitely end it but clearly smothering her is not helping either. I dont want to explore the other female options out there but I am struggling without any emotional needs being met.

Oh and please, no crap about affairs, I have questioned her and snooped and it is not happening. So some real help please

You are NOT separated.

Separation means living apart and filing separation. She is doing whatever the hell she wants to do outside her marriage while keeping the financial security of a home and income for her family. How many people do you know grew up in homes where their parents hated each other and they didn't know it? Come on. Lying to your children is to deceive them of what a real marriage should be like.

Other "temptations" with co-workers will lead you to tarnish your reputation/career, commit your own adultery, spending time with women foolish enough to date a man still living with his wife, and most of all, draw your energy away from saving your family.

If she wants to "separate", she can move out and file for separation. Until then, do not allow her to run around and tell people that you are separated. Tell them the truth. You are NOT separated and she is acting like a fool.

Have you checked her cell phone records for unrecognized callers. Who is her trainer. Have you actually seen her at the gym for 2 hours and who is she with? Sorry, but who continues to live in a separate bedroom and tell others they are separated without the intention of dating others? Does that make ANY sense?

Here's an excellent radio clip from Dr. Harley himself answers a question about a wife wanting to seperate from her husband, at the 6:50 mark.

Radio clip

Also an excellent article by Dr. H about snooping in a marriage.
Snooping in a marriage is it right or wrong?

Another excellent radio clip from Dr. Harley talking about what are red flags in a marriage.

Radio Clip on Snooping and Sharing Passwords

Nb1712, ask yourself why she would object to your looking in her Facebook unless she had something to hide? Hiding things from a spouse is a sign of an affair. People who have nothing to hide, dont hide. Obviously, she has something to hide. It is inane to say that YOU are the untrustworthy one when it is SHE who is hiding things.

You want help? Then get your head out of the sand and dig out her affair. She is having an affair and there is nothing you can do until you dig it out and expose it. You are wasting your time until that happens.

And quit saying you are "separated." That is just silly.

The longer you ignore us, the harder it will be to turn this around. You are in serious denial and will lose your wife if you don't snap out of it!

She's hiding things on FB.

She may not be always going to the gym.

You won't put a GPS on her car or verify if she is at the gym.

NB, I recommend getting MB coaching. Even one session can give you the insight to turn your marriage around.

Sounds like your wife has years of built up resentment: probably because you weren't meeting each others' emotional needs and possibly because of love busters. Sounds like she is in withdrawal. Also sounds like your efforts to reconcile with her were perceived as you trying to get YOUR needs met - which she interpreted as selfishness on your part.

She has become so uncomfortable around you that she has decided to live an independent lifestyle. You didn't take care of her, so she will "take care of herself."

It will take a while to win her back, but it can be done. You'll know she's coming back when she starts arguing with you. (the state of conflict) Your job will be to gently guide her to the state of intimacy.

Read this article, and call the Harley's for coaching. Good luck!

The Three Statesw of Mind in Marriage
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

NB, continue reading this too, "How one spouse can lead the other back to intimacy"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

You will have to overcome your instincts for a while - not easy, but you can do it!

When you're ready for the "advanced" class,;) read this article about the Policy of Joint Agreement. It's the only way to have a great marriage.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

So, let me summarize:

She wants to basically continue to receive HER critical ENs from you (financial support, shared child care, the facade of "marriage") while denying you YOURS (intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, admiration, appreciation).

Given the rather stark appearance when laid out like that, what is YOUR counter-offer, NB?

Zhamila, it sounds very much like his wife is having an affair and we need to keep him focused on that until he rules it out. He WANTS to be distracted by focusing on other things, but that will harm his chances if his wife is having an affair. Please help this poster stay focused on the issue at hand.

I agree MelodyLane - I somehow missed the FB snooping part. Her defensiveness about snooping is a big red flag.

I do still think a solid Plan A will be helpful, and all the articles will come in handy either way...just maybe after discovery.

NB,
I discovered MB a little too late (found MB in October 2011 and H's EA was in March-April 2011). We wasted tons of money and time on two marriage counselors - the second MC who gave terrible advice. Steve Harley is now trying to correct our situation, get my H on board. There was a lot of fear and procrastination on my part. DO NOT DO WHAT I DID - Since you have found MB, get with this ASAP and follow the posters' advice RIGHT NOW.

My H was going to the gym a lot, and I later found out she was working out there also. Sorry, but you need to snoop even more. It may not come natural to you, but you have to go with her to the gym....either unannounced or accompany her at the last minute. If you insist on going with her at the last minute, pay attention if she sneaks to the bathroom with her purse/phone to text OM to alert him...hmmm...now that I just texted that, I think you should show up unannounced....get a sitter for the kids, do whatever you need to do. Pay attention to her reaction when she sees you.

If you don't handle this the proper way, you be limping along like me in 6 months. You HAVE to follow everyone's advice RIGHT NOW. Understand?

((hugs))

If your wife works out a lot, suggest you guys work out at home, maybe order some Beach Body/P90X stuff. See what her reaction is if you mention this.

If it hasn't been said enough, I'll say it one more time, her getting upset about you being in her FB account should set an alarm in yo head.

My wife and I don't 'snoop' on each other but we both have all the passwords to each others FB and email accts. People get secretive when they have something to hide.

I remember on two occassions which I was uncomfortable with her talking to two different individuals. I told her that I did not want her communicating with those people. Her response was an 'No problem. Done.'

As my wife puts it, a husband has a right to know who their wife is talking to and if they do not like those people she is talking to, then she should respect that wish. No other man should be more important than your husband. This the attitude your wife should have. And, of course, it goes the same for the husband also.

She wants to basically continue to receive HER critical ENs from you...while denying you YOURS...what is YOUR counter-offer, NB?

If it takes four days to answer this question, that's probably an indicator of a problem!

alis this is so correct. I see the same thing with my WW. Last year she abruptly left me in August and she filed for divorce. I was shocked. She made a list of my shortcomings citing them as a main reason for divorce. I thought that was the case and started working on myself diligently with my therapist's help. It is just recently that I found out that the true reason was OM1 who she was having EA and PA. From November last year till March this year we tried to reconcile. Then she told me that I "abused" her few times long time ago and she cannot get over that and that we cannot stay married. I did not know that OM2 entered her life already and she had EA and PA with him tue.

The real abuse came from her. I decided to expose these affairs and regain my power regardless of whether I will stay married or not.

It is amazing how some of the same patterns emerge. Thank you all veterans for seeing our fog and helping us see through it! I love my WW but I think of her as a drug addict.

nb1712

I�ve read both you and your wife�s posts. Painfully, I see what may be some similar dynamics to my near marital meltdown a few years ago. I feel like I may have some useful experience and insight to add. I�ll get a few things wrong but if I get a few things right, let�s see if we can move this train forward.

I�m going to make a brief statement on the affair thing. You�ve gotten a lot of direct advice on this topic. I agree that your wife, (like anyone in her position) is very VULNERABLE to an affair � which I define as having one�s most important ENs met by someone other than their spouse. If your wife does have a male friend who is at least meeting a few of her needs and showing her that there may be a future for her outside your marriage � then re-building your marriage will be extremely difficult. If this is the case, she is not a bad person. She is a normal person, possibly making an unwise decision � but a totally understandable one. If you had felt abused and neglected in your marriage like she has � you too would be VERY VULNERABLE to an affair. I�m not soft peddling the issue but this is not going to be my focus because an affair, IF it exists, is a symptom, not the main problem, IMO.

Your wife has given us some absolutely GOLDEN information. For her, your marriage has been an intolerable series of disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts and serious neglect of her most important emotional needs. She has been parented and bullied by someone who should be treating her and her views as totally equal to their own. She has suffered this periodic disappointment and abusive treatment silently for years until finally she has said �ENUF. I know this is a big deal but I cannot do this for another 20, 10 or 5 years. I can�t do this for another month.�

Interestingly, to her point of view you have been pretty well fed in your marriage. You likely have had some complaints, ones you probably inform her of often and pointedly, but after some �straight talk�, things change a bit and you go back to your comfortable existence. It doea appear your lack of satisfaction certainly hasn�t risen to the level of seriously wanting to pull the plug.

Like every marriage breakdown, *yours has been due to a failure to care for each other* � you have stopped doing the good things that feed your love bank and you�ve exposed each other to nasty, repetitive love busters until there is nothing left. There is no mystery here. Though your situation may seem unique and hopeless, it is far from either, based on what I�ve read.

Here is what worked for me when I was in your situation. Try it on.

You must undergo a complete and total paradigm shift. You my friend have been an abusive husband and your spouse is a battered wife. Do you get this? Has this sunk in for you? You may think this an extreme statement but *from your wife�s perspective*, I suspect it is absolutely true.
You likely see things differently.

You probably do not see yourself as an abuser. At the suggestion that you are you may try to impose *your* perspective on her and talk her out of hers, to help her see how she is WRONG� in an attempt to *once again* control her. Good luck with that.

For now I would suggest you take this whole beast on your shoulders. Your wife is totally in withdrawal. Don�t expect her to come to the table for a much, much longer time than you are hoping. * In fact, don�t expect anything.* Do the right thing, treat her right � not because you are expecting reciprocation � but because it is the right thing to do. Period. You *become* (not just act like) the husband she will find irresistible � whether she chooses that new husband, is up to her. But your clear the path. You create an environment suitable for the development of emotional re-attachement. You let her know (through consistent and enduring changes in behavior) that if she chooses to come back to your marriage that she will never have to go back to the pit of your previous relationship. Then you wait. Consider a wait of at least 3 months of you being that guy before she�ll even stick her toe in the water. If she doesn�t, you don�t� change back. You are different, forever.

I�m going to try to summarize to not keep going on.

>>Get and read Fall In Love, Stay In Love, Lovebusters, and His Needs Her Needs. Read them cover to cover in that order. The website is awesome but it and this forum are not enough. Buy and read the books. Try doing nothing but avoiding harm while you�re reading them because half-baked marriage builders is worse than doing nothing IMO.

>>Discover and meet the ENs she will allow you to meet. Don�t press for more. Tell us what her ENs are and what you are doing to meet them.

>>Catalog and absolutely extinguish your love busters. Tell us what they are and what you are doing to avoid them. I kept a daily chart and gave myself a star for every day I avoided DJs and AOs. Try this, you may be surprised. Maybe ask her to tell you if you past that day or not.

>>Expect nothing. If your wife chooses your new self as her new husband and comes back to the table as an equal participant in your marriage (which means knowing and loving you back,) awesome! If not, you still become the best you. DO NOT use marriage builders and your changing mindset as another tool to hurt and control your wife. DO NOT DO IT! If your wife can tell you are trying to manipulate her, you may as well hang it up. And she will know. She�s experienced your subtle manipulation and control for many years.

>>Don�t kid yourself that divorce is the answer. You�ve done a lot trying to fix things but not much of the right things. You�re just getting started with an effective plan. The clock is just now resetting.

I know this is long. Keep posting. If something I've said seems way off base, maybe I haven't been clear. This is the hardest thing you�ll ever do, doable but worth it. A better marriage than you've ever dreamed of awaits you and punky and your kids on the other side of this.

If you�ve found this helpful I�d be glad to offer more feedback offline-

brent (at) smithnet (dot) us

Sorry, one final nugget - do not do anything to support separation or divorce. *Lovingly* choose not to enable a separation. Don't read what I just said as 'stone wall' or manipulate. This is a fine line to ride. But do humbly and lovingly exercise your choice to not do anything that supports the dissolution of your marriage. This was a terrible and painful though well-meaning mistake I made.

BWS just did a super job describing the CARROT of Plan A. However, without the stick, Plan A is of no effect. And let me give you an analogy. Your marriage is the Titanic. The Titanic is not perfect, it has many rooms that need to be painted and the engine needs some work. But the Titanic has just hit a huge reef and the resulting hole has caused the ship to sink. The hole in the hull is the AFFAIR. In order to save the ship, you must FIRST stop it from sinking.

It is the same with an affair. Even though the poor state of the marriage and her pisspoor boundaries with men led to the affair, you must FIRST find the affair and expose it in order to save the marriage. THEN you can work on painting the rooms and improving engine performance. The affair must be addressed FIRST, though, so it can be exposed wide and far. You cannot save a marriage if you don't know what is tearing it down.

The affair is what is killing your marriage. Your marriage can recover from all these other garden variety problems; it cannot recover from an ongoing affair. Nor can you effectively meet her needs when she is having an affair. So, your goal must be to get the information about the affair and then kill it off. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so getting it out into the open will hasten its death.

p.s when you find the evience of an affair, you should first DEMAND that she end all contact with the OM.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."