So H and I are pretty familiar with the program. We are doing the books/CDs/workbooks.

We get 15-25 hours a week of UA time. Actually we spend all but about 50 hours a week together.

I have lots of stuff to work on, but I feel like I am doing a good job of meeting needs and not LBing. My biggest Lb BY FAR are DJs. I had a big problem with venting and AOs. It has not worked out well to eliminate them. I am happy that I have done so well at eliminating AOs because it is wrong etc. but it has not been good for my marriage because he feels like he is doing fine when he isn't. I think I may misunderstand something:

What is the correct way to respond to Ib? I have been responding to LBs like this: either calmly pointing them out in the moment or, more often, sitting down about once a week and calmly letting him know of LBs without venting or going on and on. The only consequence is a lower love bank balance on my end, but if I am doing my job right, he won't actually notice this, right?

So we had a really rough week last week, complicated situation involving lots of triggers for past stress etc. It involved major LBs on his part including an overnight trip. When I brought up the trip (which I was originally fine with and probably would have been fine with again after talking about it) he got instantly defensive and weird. I didn't let it escalate too much and avoided LBs. When things cooled off and we had nice UA time we talked about it calmly and he said he was defensive because he wanted to go and he did not want to have any conversation with me that involved not going and had his defenses up. We had lots of UA time after that including a little overnight at a local hotel. I was still bummed about what happened (the defensiveness on his part) but I did awesome need-meeting etc. (I am not getting my needs met very well and H still LBs me out of habit). That was the weekend before his overnight.

So I felt so terrible and sad while he was away on his trip. I did not tell him that if he went I would be upset with him or that it would lower my love bank balance or whatever. He knows MB concepts. BUT when he got back I didn't know how to act. He planned an awesome date for when he got back and I was awkward at the house before we left. He asked me if I was mad and I was honest, that I didn't feel great about our marriage. We went on the date and of course he was tense and distant. I know that was my fault...

We ended up having a yucky conversation today...not a fight really, but an honest conversation. I told him that he was draining my LB faster than he could fill it up. He takes great offense to this. He does not think it's valid for IB to cause this huge of a problem. I really want to separate when he talks like this, I worry that our marriage will never improve if he doesn't believe the LB concept. He tells me "it's on me" if we separate over something so stupid (doing fun stuff without me)...I tend to agree, but I am a wreck all the time over our relationship.

What am I missing. I should be: meeting needs, avoiding LBs and letting him know what my needs are and when he LBs, right?

I only find out my LBs to him when I bring up that I am upset about something he is doing, so I thought I was doing well, but maybe I am not...

I feel like plan B with a small child and a faithful, non-abusive, non-addicted spouse seems ridiculous but I am sad and upset all the time.

That was really long. The real questions are: what is the proper way to respond to LBs and is it really act sweet and loving right up until plan b? Seems weird and manipulative. I don't think he knows how much damage he is doing when I use only calm words...

You let them know that they are LBing you! Have you done the questionairres? You should, and write down how much IB affects you, the exact things he does that are IB LBs for you, and what you would like for him to do instead.

IB is a hard nut to crack. People get in the habit of being thoughtless, and society tells them that they should make themselves happy above all else. You can tell someone that they husrt you without AOing or DJing, and the shortest route to doing that is to focus on behavior instead of motivation.

" You are a selfish jerk and planned this just to piss me off!"
Becomes
"I feel excluded when you plan things without me. I would like it if you made me part of your plans. I am not saying that I never want you to do anything without me, but while we are in this tender spot, including me would make me feel awesome and important to you."

Never, ever again agree to something you don't like. Conflict avoiders are very difficult to please, because you force us to try to read your mind.

When he starts bringing up your faults in response to your complaints, redirect to the original topic. "Thanks for telling me. How about we discuss that in more depth later? Right now we were talking about x, and I would like to resolve it, and then we can address your complaint, because I want to resolve that, too."

Good points, CWMI, a lot of that applies to me.

What about when H knows something is an LB, is reminded weekly and/or in the moment, and does it anyway?

I know I'm doing it wrong, but I don't know how to do it correctly.

A minor example:
Me: "I don't like mean jokes when I talk, like you calling me ugly"
We are on a date, I open up about something, he jokes about me being ugly.
Me: "please don't mean-joke, it hurts my feelings and shuts me down"
Him: "you know it's a joke, it's just how I am, I'm sorry, I will work on it"
Then, it happens over and over.

Mean-joking is a huge problem for me

How do I respond? This is during normal, non-relationship conversations.
I don't want to ruin our dates.

You can respond more strongly than that, without going into AO or DJ territory.

"Do you really think I am ugly?"--said perfectly straight-faced and serious, but no scowling.

What will he say? I hope it is no! When he says that, you respond, "Then stop calling me that. It makes me want to not be around you. if it continues, I am going home. Would you like to share a flan? Or, I heard the cheesecake is really good here, if you'd prefer that. What do you think?"

Telling him you don't like bad behavior is not going to ruin the date; the bad behavior is doing that.

Okay, I don't ever refer to ending a date, but I do ask if he thinks I'm ugly. "you KNOW I don't think you are ugly, that's what makes it a joke" is the response I get.

...and I know mean jokes are simply a habit. They just don't make dates enjoyable for me.

I need to end dates etc. it's hard because UA time is the most important thing...

Thanks for the lesson in boundaries 101, sigh. With my history and ongoing struggle of AOs, DJs and LBs in general it's hard to think of myself as a pleaser. I get how I am though, and I set myself up to want to LB by letting things build.

Why the heck are boundaries so hard to enforce but LBing is so easy? The reverse is true for my non-intimate family relationships...

Another response to a LB is "Ouch."

Any chance you could email the Harley's radio show with that question? I think it would be very interesting to hear his response, and helpful to lots of us.

wannatry, we used to have a poster OurHouse who her and her H counseled with Steve. Basically if you look at the situation, you can stop it earlier in the process, until you are able to redirect before withdrawals are made. I hope that makes sense?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8507_fft.html


Who needs the radio show... when the article already exists!

To the point; when he tries to excuse or justify his behavior, he is putting forth a Disrespectful Judgment!

If WT would just understand that he was joking, everything should be fine!

But... it's not. His behavior is hurtful to WT, so the solution is not for her to "learn to take a joke," but for him to quit joking at her expense when she tells him it hurts her feelings.

That's great advice....for him. In the meantime she's feeling unloved and unsafe.

V[quote=kerala]That's great advice....for him. In the meantime she's feeling unloved and unsafe. [/quote

So what is your advice for her?

If it was me, I wouldn't stand for being treated that way and would make that pretty clear to my partner. When she asks him "Do you really think I'm ugly?" that just gives him the opportunity to assert plausible deniability. He doesn't appear to care that it hurts her. But standing up to a bully is easier said that done for some people....

So I think the advice to call the radio show was the most sensible option. Hopefully it will produce something for HER to do, as opposed to telling her what he SHOULDN'T be doing. She can't control that. She can only control herself, decide on her boundaries and protect herself. Maybe Dr H will have some advice specific to her sitch and current emotional state.

Here's a radio clip on the DH telling jokes on his DW's expense.
Radio Clip on telling jokes at your wife's expense

Please tell me what you think.

What should she do?

Tell him briefly, and respectfully, that his joking about her destroys her love for him, and leave it right there at that.

If he begins to argue, walk away.

And his "explanations" are arguments.

It doesn't appear to me that you're doing it wrong. It's respectful, clear, and to the point. However, you said "I don't like mean jokes" and "Please don't..." Maybe you could actually say "It bothers me when you call me ugly." And then, you have to leave it up to him to change this behavior.

I would hope that he would stop it altogether, but doing it over and over again may require a boundary deal. Maybe suggest that it bothers you so much that although you don't want to end a date early, if he repeats this behavior during the next date, the date is ended there.

It's rather similar to being able to leave a conversation when your spouse is using SDs, Djs, and/or angry outbursts. It's not your job to just sit there and take it.

That's just my 2 cents.

Please listen to this from Dr. Harley.

Next time he called me ugly, I'd laugh and say, "That's so funny, LOUSY LOVER/TINY WEINER/CAN'T GET IT UP GUY."

Pick one that might help him understand your POV.

Tell him since he hasn't had much success "working on it", you think he needs to put his money where his mouth is. He has to give you $20 for the first offense, $40 for the second, $80 for the third...you get the idea.

Eventually, you will look forward to when he says it, and he will be terrified to.

OR you could use chores around the house that you hate doing.

Anyway, you get the idea.

The reason he doesn't stop this AWFUL behavior is b/c the consequences aren't severe enough. Make him hate the consequences so much that he will never do it again.

Dr. Harley says AOs are a deal breaker. They should not be allowed in a marriage.

These kind of "jokes" would be a deal breaker for me too.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond! My H is the total opposite of a bully! He actual takes my abuse (if all LBs are abuse?) and pretty much refuses to let me know if I am Lbing him. I have to study Lovebusters material and diligently work on the stuff I KNOW is wrong. He won't help me in that process though. The few LBs he has brought to my attention (during a fight or in response to me pointing out his) have been a little out there. Frankly, I suspect, based on his actions (DJ here) that my complaints and requests are LBs...

That brings up a thought I have (a DJ to assume what my husband feels, but he won't tell me) he seems to avoid confrontation and just "jokes" about stuff. Often when I take his joke seriously in an effort to address his concern or complaint, he will say "I'm just joking" he does not like to be serious.

He doesn't think I am ugly and isn't calling me ugly, he is just joking. BUT when he does/did have a problem with my appearance he would tell me in jokes or in bizarre hyperbole. He does not like having a calm, serious talk about our relationship. He thinks relationship talk is for 17-year-old girls. (quote)

He has been more than willing to use MB materials (we have the home course) but he doesn't initiate doing it at all and ultimately he is deeply sad and disappointed that we "need a marriage program" but I digress.

I read the example posted and it only sort-of describes our situation. My husband often acknowledges that he hurt me, but he just looks so sad sitting there after making a simple joke and having me be hurt. It is such a crappy situation. MB says that his jokes are simply a bad habit that hurts me, but I am starting to feel that it is my husband's contempt bubbling to the surface.

My poor H he tries so hard be he LBs constantly. It's this huge burden for him. He loves me, puts in effort and messes up every other second.

Also, a recent LB on his part revealed that it is an LB for me to say I don't like something he likes even if I am respectful. (DJ alert) maybe that's why he can't talk about some of my LBs in a calm manner...talking about them rationally would make him look silly? I mean how do you tell your spouse that any time they verbalize that they don't like something you like it's an LB? And yes, I know for a FACT I was respectful. You are allowed to not like things. "I just can't get into that musician, I just don't enjoy listening to it" is not an LB.

Here is a full, accurate example of the joking:

We went away for my birthday (have I mentioned we get TONS of UA time??)

After a really fun day we had dinner at a nice restaurant. Discussion turned to our (presumably my) infertility. I said that, weirdly, I wasn't too distraught over my body having trouble getting pregnant...that it was helping to think of it the same way I think about being short. I would like to be taller, but, oh well...I am not! His reply:

"I wish you were taller too!!"

I told him that his mean joke in reply to my opening up to him about something (conversation is an unmet need of mine, I am a little desperate about it) made me feel like shutting down and not talking etc. He replied that he was joking and that I know he likes me small (he does, I do know this) and I told him that if he needed to make a joke in that moment (because he doesn't like serious conversations) that he could have said "good thing you aren't tall or I wouldn't like it!" or something that was a NICE joke instead of a MEAN joke. He said that it wouldn't be a joke because it's true.

He was genuinely remorseful and bummed that his words had a negative effect on me.

I think my feeling LBed all the time and letting my husband know (however respectfully and gently) is taking it's toll and my H is getting depressed and withdrawn. All our lovely UA time is marred by LBs. He just seems so shut down that he can't do anything right Despite hours and hours of UA my intimate needs are not being met.

In all fairness, a crappy episode yesterday revealed to me that I am not doing as well as I thought in avoiding LBs. I figured this out when he blew up about something simple and I backtracked to figure out that I had done quite a bit of LBing. I am a pretty assertive, aggressive person and it is easy for me to slip into LBs (disrespectful judgements, mostly) AOs are a hard one, but You KNOW you've done it. (and I am getting really good at feeling it start which is key!) but those DJs sneak up on me...

And yes, I know he should not AO. (Remember I am a master DJer, I always know what my H does wrong) He did really well and just left the house when he got frustrated, but not before saying "I hate it here" a few times When he came home and apologized it did not escalate and we didn't fight but I did say "you are responsible for calmly pointing out my LBs to me and talking to me when you are getting frustrated with me." Hopefully there is no LB lurking there...

My husband has so many bad habits that are LBs that I have thought of this many times. I don't think it follows the MB program though...I also don't want to cultivate meanness. I already have enough trouble with LBs.

This is pretty funny. Sorry.

I suspect that your H is uncomfortable w/ serious/emotional talk so he tries to lighten it up by joking around.

I don't think this was a mean joke.

Maybe you could ask him if you could have just 10 mins. of serious talk and then you could just be lighthearted the rest of the evening.

I didn't suggest that you do it b/c you wanted to hurt him, I suggested you do it so that he might understand how not all jokes are funny.

But, now that I read your last post I don't think that suggestion is what is needed.

What about having your H listen to this radio clip from Dr. Harely?

Yes, I agree completely. I should have given an accurate example from the beginning and avoided the "bullying" connotation.

What I typed was the extent of that conversation. This dinner was after 10 hours of recreational companionship and I changed the subject after the joke. In our two years of UA time I definitely have not talked for 10 minutes about any of my thoughts, feelings, emotions, hobbies or interests, except during serious talks about our relationship or our child. H is very serious and thoughtful about our child and wants to have a lot of serious talks about him. I am very shut down in the conversation department and I actually try to think of topics to talk about ahead of time etc. He usually teases me about it and I usually change the topic after that.

My H does prefer light-hearted conversation, but only about topics that interest him. We also have a lot of serious conversations about problems he is dealing with. I know every detail about his life, what he listened to, who he talked to and who that person reminded him of, how he felt, how hungry he got, what he ate, the intricacies of his golf game (several holes, which club he used how his new clubs feel) What book he is reading (I have had luck reading the same books as him so we can talk about that!)

In all fairness, he isn't MORE interested in anyone elses life and if I didn't ask a lot of questions and show interest he would NOT drone on about himself...but I try to keep the conversation going because it seems like a waste of UA time to be silent in the car and at dinner. Plus, if I don't talk he asks me what's wrong which is a fair question because I always do my part and ask tons of questions etc. We often do sit in silence during long drives because I run out of stuff to ask him. We both like silence in the car, so he is way cool with that. I've tried not talking at dinner but it feels like I am being passive agressive.

He was quite shocked when we got thru the conversation lesson in our home study course and I scored him 1 out of 10 in meeting the need. When we reviewed it he was shocked that he had actually done worse than usual that week (I was trying to open up so when he made fun of a TV show I like I decided to forgo defensiveness and was upbeat and calm in telling him what I like about it. He responded with "oh, don't act like watching that show is edifying" which is an unusually judgmental response from him. )

He has great social graces...he is polite, makes small talk etc. Also, he is meeting my need for O&H 100%.

We are very compatible: I don't like to talk about my problems as much as I like to probe and get to know people. I read all the threads here but post rarely! But it gets really boring to talk to someone for 40 hours a week and never talk about yourself or the things you are interested in! (We spend a lot of time together with our self-sufficient child so even our non UA time has lots of conversation, we also talk on the phone several times a day)

Like I said, I have a huge problem with DJs. I feel like if he loved me he would want to know my thoughts and fears and feelings. I know that it doesn't work that way. Also, I am starting to find him terribly boring.

This was just not a problem before UA time. We have always spent most of our time together but hung out with friends and family so I had more people to talk to. I really don't enjoy our UA time at all and I think I am over critical and sensitive about it and I am nit-picking him. I am excited to go out tonight because we are going out with another couple-yay! We got 4 hours UA yesterday and will get 4 hours tomorrow.

Also, I don't really like the mean jokes I have an unmet need for affection and I have sometimes teased him "now say 3 nice things about me!" after a joke. If I get too serious after one of his jokes it defeats the purpose of his joke and ruins the mood.

In all seriousness, him saying "I wish you were taller" is HIS way of saying "I like that you are short" (no, I am not joking) but it just doesn't do it for me

I think I need to work on eliminating LBs that have crept in and doing my best to meet needs (really hard right now) and after a couple of weeks I will suggest phone counseling. I just don't feel like he can take me telling a stranger that my husband isn't doing a good job I really wish we could take care of this ourselves.

Sorry this is so long

Good idea. I feel worried about how he would respond to that...

Why are you worried? It's all in how you bring it up.

Does he know about MB? "I would love if you would listen to this radio clip with me from Dr. Harley. What do you think?"

Here are some good radio clips on how to get a spouse on board with Marrige Builders.

Radio clip on getting a spouse on board with Marriage Builders
Segment #2