Hello,

I was here in the early 2000's. H had major porn problem and I almost left him. We went through MB, he did some of his own counseling. Major promise was if that if he had a slip he would 1) Get help 2) let me know. It wasn't that he'd never fail, but that'd he'd be aware of the signs and do something about it. I gave him an out, said he should leave if that was what he wanted, we had no kids, had only been married three years, there's the door... He swore he loved me more than anything, he wanted our marriage...

I generally had to initiate sex throughout. I didn't enjoy that, and said I wanted to switch that up a few years ago, that I wanted him in charge of our sex life. I'm a frisky girl, I don't turn him down... I stopped initiating and our sex life fizzled.

I was suspicious, so asked him some questions last week and he admitted to masturbating again, he swears no porn.

I'm sitting here starving for affection and sex and he's masturbating. He broke the one promise I hung my marriage on... He didn't have a little porn problem.

If I leave him he's ruined my life.
He's stolen my 30's.
We own a business together that I cannot run without him.
He's crashed my retirement.

We spend 22-23 hours a day together.
He's my best friend.
ALL of our recreational time is together.
ALL of our hobbies are together. We get along so well.
He's devastated every single corner of my life.

He's found a mens support group.
He's found a cognitive behavioral therapist.

I've read here for YEARS... I know love can return, but I feel like such an idiot. Someone give me some hope.

There's no accountability I can enforce here IF there's really no porn. I cant shower with him.

I feel like he never opens up to me, he's been telling me he knows it and he feels he can, that he knows I deserve it. I've been starving out here.

I feel like he'd already be gone if we had separate jobs. That I'm making the wrong decision for the wrong reason. But everything else is so good. Every time my head gets clear I break down again. What am I missing?

Thank you.

Married 13 years
No children

What was your posting name in 2000?

As for masturbation Dr Harley says it should not be allowed in marriage.
Each spouse should receive sexual fulfillment from each other.
Sexual fulfillment is agreed through the Policy of Joint Agreement

Hi Brenda. When you say you went through Marriage Builders, what do you mean exactly? You went through the seminar?

How and where does he view porn? When and where does he masturbate if you are together all this time?

And what are his reasons for not seeking SF from you? Does he find you attractive? What is the obstacle?

Do you have a keylogger on his computer?

He says no porn now. Just masturbation. I don't know if I believe him.

I didn't ask for details. I'm assuming in the shower. He explained how he'd sneak time when we were apart when this went down the first time. It takes very little time. I can leave the house just a few minutes before him (we drive separate cars), go to the store, he'd do it when I was in the shower, etc. When there's a will, there's a way.

He puts too much pressure on initiating SF. Everything has to be 'right'. I tell him to keep it fun and light hearted...

He says he finds me very attractive. I'm in very good shape. He is not. He's at his heaviest. He's stuck in his head. He admits he's probably been depressed lately which is also why he jumped on the CB Therapist and Men's Support Group. He's begging me not to leave him.

We did the written MB. The forms and worksheets. The rules: time together, lots of RC, no opposite sex friends. I cant beg Openness out of him, I've listed it as a top need.

My Bank has been pretty low lately, which prompted this conversation. He's been gaining weight, surfing the couch, blowing off the SF...

Now it's empty.

How would he usually view porn? On the computer?

And how does he explain why he would rather masturbate than have sex with you?

How much of this time together is spent giving each other undivided attention, ie: meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment?

And what are his top ENs? Do you know?

Have all the conditions that allowed the porn been eliminated?

You SHOULD get the details of the masturbation. But when you listen to him, do not get angry. You want to encourage honesty and openness, so you will need to control your reaction to information that he gives you.

When you make love with your H, does he have performance problems, such as PE or ED? When a man has had the habit of masturbation for years, it changes his sexual reflexes, not to mention his desire for sex with his spouse.

Some men find that masturbation turns out to be a lot easier than making love to a woman. To make love with a woman means a man needs to be affectionate and conversational, meeting the ENs of his wife. Sometimes a man would rather avoid all this "work" and gratify himself.

There is simply no place in marriage for masturbation and he needs to just stop it, practicing radical honesty with you when he has the desire to do so. At the same time, he needs to be able to come to you for SF.

It works like a two-way street, though. In order for you to want to meet his need for SF, he needs to create an environment that shows his care for you. He will need to learn to meet your ENs, such as affection and conversation.

If you are very much bothered by his weight gain, then you should start exercising with him and encouraging him to lose weight.

IF he's using porn it would be on his cell phone. The home lap top and office system is monitored. (We own our own company, I monitor the office computers) He says he's not using porn, he just masturbated because it was an emergency. I was 'available' it was an emergency because he's too awkward to initiate SF with me.

He's says he's awkward and uncomfortable.
He says everything has to be just right and he get's to hung up in his head and it's easier to masturbate.

We spend tons on time on RC and conversation. Not so much on affection or SF. We have many hobbies in common and can keep ourselves distracted by those. Very distracted. Busy, busy, busy... Fun, fun, our life is a big party. Everyone is jealous. Travel, hobbies, vacations, big home remodel, tons to do.

He says it's not me, it's him.

I say, I'm tired of this BS. I am very hurt. Again. He agrees I didn't do anything wrong here. I have asked for affection and openness. He's said he'd try. He's introverted and quiet. He's happy I'm involved with his hobbies.

He said his top needs were, in no specific order:
SF
RC
Admiration
Conversation
DS

I've probably been worst at Admiration since the 2003 blowout. He doesn't finish his projects, he's gained weight, too much surfing on the internet, the lazy attitude towards SF... too much TV - I've lost some respect. We've talked about his LB's and he'd start to get his act together, but he'd fall back into his funk.

He seems really shaken up right now, but do we need to do this every 10 years? I have to get neglected, watch him like a hawk, ask 20 questions and find out that something is wrong? When does he get to be in charge of him?

I'm not here because I'm afraid he used porn. Please don't lecture me on why porn is wrong. You are singing to the choir.

I on the verge of HATING him because I KNOW he lied about masturbating for months. He SWORE on a stack he'd get help if he had a slip up.

I'm having to play nice with him at work and in social situations right now. It's very hard for me.

He's withheld affection and SF from me. Again.

I don't want to go through this HELL, AGAIN. I didn't get a wonderful, gushy, affectionate husband after recovery. I got a man who betrayed me, again.

Every single part of my life will change if I leave him.

Here is what I would do: start scheduling SEX. Sit down and start scheduling actual DATES. Romantic dates that last 3+ hours. You would spend 3+ hours meeting each others intimate EN's of conversation, affection, RC and then finish up the evening with SEX. If it is scheduled, you tend to get excited and look forward to it. That will help him avoid the problem of initiating. That would reduce his anxiety and yours.


Is that undivided attention where you focus on each other? Are you ALONE together? Hobbies can interfere with undivided attention. Do you have INTIMATE conversations? Do you have INTIMATE dates?

I would really focus on becoming GREAT at meeting each others INTIMATE emotional needs. Because you can be together 100 hours a day, but it will matter little if you are not intimate and the attention to each other is not undivided.


He can train himself to become superb at affection if you tie this to his need for SF. For example, your romantic dates should be an EVENT. He should spend 3+ hours with you before SF meeting your intimate emotional needs of affection and conversation. [intimate] A big part of intimate conversation is openness and honesty. He can LEARN to do that.

I would bring this up to him. Most of this is stuff that can be POJA'd, but the idea is that if he made his marriage his greatest source of happiness, he probably wouldn't want to spend too much time on the internet and in front of the TV. Start using that time to meet each others ENs out on DATES.

Can you start exercising together? That is a great way to achieve UA time.

I'm hurt, and pissed off all to hell.
My only motivations are wholly selfish.. financial. To avoid embarrassment. To avoid the pain/work of recovery, again.
I'm so mad at him I can hardly look at him.

I don't want to DO anything. He messed this up.
I'm in my mid 40's now. This is so unfair.
I hate this.

Brenda, the problem in the past is that you and your H didn't really know how to arrange your lives so he wouldn't masturbate. Having no plan is a plan to fail. You only counted on his "word," and his "willpower" which doesn't work. When you stop an addiction it is real important that you replace that huge gaping HOLE with something else or you will continue to fall in. There wasn't a plan here so he has been grappling with the same addiction all this time.

In many ways, recovery did not happen here. You and your H didn't create a romantic relationship and learn to become experts at meeting each others needs.

You have a chance to do it right this time. And you shouldn't get so angry at him when he falls. Just help him create the conditions where he doesn't fail. That is best for you both. Your anger won't solve anything.

Would you say there is logic in you staying with your husband?

You are in a business and a have major investments together? Would you say that is a logical reason to try and stay to build the passion you desire in your marriage?

You have thirteen years together. Is that a logical reason for you to consider staying in your marriage?

Restoring the passion and romance in your marriage is possible, but it will take some radical changes.

Will your husband agree to the MB program and be radically honest with you? Will he agree to never do anything without your enthusiastic agreement? This would mean ending ALL his independent behavior, including porn and masturbation - forever. Is he willing to do this to save the marriage?

The MB Online Seminar is a really good program for restoring the love and passion to your marriage.

Listen, many people here on this board have suffered multiple blows to their marriages and have recovered when both spouses got serious.

My H also had a bad habit of masturbation for years, so he became a poor lover with little desire for sex with me. He gained 50 pounds. Then he had an affair. Then I discovered porn a few years later. Then, two and a half years ago, he had another affair during deployment. I wanted to leave, too. I hated my H, too. But there was logic in trying to fix it, if it was possible. It didn't seem possible at the time that we ever not be broken.

But once we decided to recover using MB, our marriage has never gone back to the way it used to be. It's much better than it ever has been.

There is hope for you, if you and your H decide to go for recovery.

Dear BrendaEllen:


Easy one.


When I was depressed, I was also at my heaviest, and other than work, didn't do much other than stare at TV and sleep on the couch.

When my H wanted to have sex with me, my thinking was: Why on earth would he want to have sex with an ugly fat woman who couldn't get off the couch? And my answer was: He just wanted to use me for sex.

This line of thinking did not motivate me to have sex with him; in fact, it motivated me to avoid sex for as long as possible.


When I was depressed, this would not have helped me. In fact, it would have made me feel much, much worse. On a given day, and achievable goal for me would have been to sit upright. I was as likely to be able to exercise as a Sunday morning mall walker would be to climb Mount Everest.

Depression is a cognitive quagmire. The more you try to get out of it, the deeper you sink. Unless you have experienced it (meaning, a real, major depression diagnosed by a qualified professional, not the vernacular "depression" people talk about when they're having a bad hair day), it's difficult to describe. The impairment to your objective, rational thinking is life-altering.

I hope your H does see a cognitive behavioral therapist; if he is depressed, he WILL need the help.

Good luck -

BV

BUT...you are not him and can't answer for him. Men and women are wired completely different and have very different motivations for sex. Women have sex for the purpose of bonding, men have sex for the physical release. That is why you felt used when your husband had sex with you without bonding. Men are not wired like that.

The big take away is that these are his issues that he keeps avoiding that keep getting put back on me in very painful ways.

They only get addressed when something nasty happens, and then only till I stop driving the recovery train. Then he gets, as he says, into a 'rut'.

Why would I sign up for this again?

Yes, it was generally sex without bonding.

I want him to come here and have you guy work with him on PORH and O&H. He admits he cannot imagine using PORH with me, although we've discussed it many times.

I'll log off, delete this thread (later) and not look at his.
He'll do this along with his mens group and this one-on-one therapist.

I'm not going to monitor the recovery this time. He knows I'm serious. I'm not going to ask him everyday if he's read any in his books or nanny him like last time. It was like pulling teeth. If he does not want this, neither do I.

I'm going to ask him to specifically address the issues of PORH with you guys, you'll know it's him.

Thank you.

Of course. None of us can answer for one another; we can just share viewpoints and experiences. For the poster/reader, caveat emptor. This is the internet, after all.


(A number of neuroscientists studying human sexuality would disagree; however, this is neither here nor there).

Both men and women can experience depression, and loss of interest in sex and escapist behavior are symptoms. Speaking from my experience, trying to apply Marriage Builder concepts with a person who is depressed is like trying to apply them with a person who has mental illness or is engaging in substance abuse. These problems need to be resolved first.

I am not saying that BrendaEllen's husband is depressed. He may or may not be. But, he sounds a lot like me when I was depressed. I try, when I can, to reach out to posters who sound like me, because when I was depressed, I spent every hour of every day hoping to die. I would love to shorten the time just one other person feels that way. I understand BrendaEllen's H is seeking treatment from a therapist practicing CBT. I hope his therapist will help him with the behaviors that are problematic for him, whether they stem from depression or not.

I simply wanted to say to BrendaEllen that if her H is not able to participate in a plan, depression may be one avenue to investigate.


B ("my .02") V

"(A number of neuroscientists studying human sexuality would disagree; however, this is neither here nor there)."


Sorry, but Dr Harley would disagree with this and so would anyone who has studied the human brain or human psychology.. Men and women have brains that are completely different and so are their sexual motivations. This is a very important distinction when you are posting on this board. That's great that you have some experiences but that is not what this poster is here for. She is here to get help with Marriage Builders and to understand Dr Harley's opinion.

One thing you might not understand is that men who masturbate often view porn and/or for whatever reason find it easier to masturbate than try to have sex with their wives. But you can't apply your own experience to the same problem because of the obvious gender differences.

Dr Harley does address depression and his solution is to get the depression under control with anti-depressants. But we don't know if that is the issue here.

"I want him to come here and have you guy work with him on PORH and O&H. He admits he cannot imagine using PORH with me, although we've discussed it many times. "

Why not rachet it up this time and actually go through the marriage Builders program? I doubt that there is much the forum can do if you have already tried and failed at do it yourself. Maybe it is time to seek professional help from MB if do it yourself has not worked?

You really need to go through this TOGETHER, not apart. In order to really recover your marriage, it needs to be comprehensive and done together.

The Marriage Builders Coaching Center

Or
The Marriage Builders� Seminar, Home Study Courses, and Accountability Programs

Marriage Builders is a little more comprehensive than that, in that it has specific recommendations for these situations. YES, you apply Marriage Builders for depression (recommendations include 15 hours of undivided attention time for women from their husband); NO, you don't apply later steps of the plan that can't be followed yet (i.e., you wouldn't mandate meeting the emotional needs of an alcoholic).

Let's start him with his group, IC, and posting here, you can bring me in when you want.

I am withdrawn and I don't know that he's got much to offer me right now. Let's see what his Cog Behavioral Therapist has to say about him being depressed. His first appointment is Monday.

I am thoroughly familiar with MB. I am ready ~ when he gets on board. But not until then. It will be a good sign to me when he ASKS for my participation. I am not going to drive this train.

Again, thank you all.

You are wasting your time again. [and ours] You didn't implement MB in your marriage before and you are not doing it now. He doesn't need to see a therapist, he needs to actually use this program. You never really implemented it in the first place. You BOTH need to be driving the train in order to have a great marriage. It is not a one way street.

This forum is not supposed to be a replacement for this program. Where in any of this is a plan to implement the Basic Concepts? Some can make this program work when they are DILIGENT and DISCPLINED at home at implementing the concepts, but you have not achieved that in all the years you have been here. Chatting on a forum does not save marriages.

You still don't have a plan and not having a plan is a plan to fail again.

Are you Drucilla?

Is this you? http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...;Main=53337&Number=559191#Post559191

Yes. Drucilla.

I will join him in MB if he asks me.

I've asked too many times.

So if he never asks you then what?? Ten more years of a bad marriage? Have you considered that this kind of approach is why you are here 10 years later in the same bad spot?

Why not call up one of the Harley's and have them sell him on the program. Then go through the online seminar. Sitting around waiting for your spouse to decide to join Marriage Builders is not a plan. It is conflict avoidance.

Why won't you take the lead here and get your marriage out of the ditch? Your H has no idea what MB can really achieve so I am confused why you think he would.

Sitting in the back of a parked car is not going to get you too far. You might have to drive the car for awhile.

It will be a good sign when you both participate in this program together.

He is here posting now, and posters can help him learn to keep his side of the street clean.

So, work on keeping your side of the street clean.


One of the problems you mentioned, is your huband's failure to meet your need for H&O. Based on what I have read, I would suggest the following;


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5016_qa.html

OK, I've not been clear.
I am not doing well.

I've just started eating. My first bite of food was at 8pm last night and I brought most of it home. My urine was orange yesterday because I forgot to drink water. I'm a wreck at work. I cry, a lot. I'm only sleeping with heavy prescription meds. I am HATING life.

If not VERY distracted my head goes to bad places.
I'm having a constant battle that I should have left in 2003. That I am very stupid. That these kinds of addicts don't change. He can knock one out in 15 minutes, I cannot police for that kind of accountability.

I'm constantly weighing the pros and cons of staying in this relationship. That I am a very stupid girl for being here.

He's a very sweet man, he's very easy to be with. I can sit with him and forget it for a while, then it comes rushing back. I need a hug SO badly.

He blew off his men's meeting. He said he had the time wrong, now he's got to wait another month. THIS is what I'm dealing with. He's not going to actively torpedo our marriage, but he'll half-[censored] stupidly do something and *boom* opps, sorry, I didn't MEAN to do that.

He canceled his appointment with the CBT (cognitive behavioral therapist). The men's group contact he had said it should be a male, his appt. was with a female, so he canceled her. I don't know if he's made another appt. As far as I know, no progress.

I had horrible parents, I've been on my own since I was a teen. I put myself through school, college, I have good, decent friends, people who love me. I haven't cheated on anyone. I look better than I have in years, damned good for a woman in her mid-40's... and I cant get a husband to love me. I feel horrible.

All I can tell is that he posted here a few times. We've agreed not to look at each others threads. I'm not willing to do any more at this time.

I've agreed to give him some TIME. He's pretty happy about that, because I TOLD him he'd be out on his ear if this happened again. So I feel pretty stupid that I didn't put him out. I sure don't feel like filling out questionnaires if he cant be bothered to show up for his men's meeting.

So, I'm giving him TIME to catch up, learn MB, get a CBT, join his men's group (for reals this time), and I'll pull myself together. I did let him take me to dinner last night.

Thank you for working with him.

Brenda, please go take the time to read his thread. This needs to be a joint effort. There is no reason you can't have a great marriage with your husband.

I don't even see his thread here.

Melody, have you read about S/A's? There may VERY WELL be a reason I cant have a great marriage with him. He could be too messed up. That is what is filling my head right now. I need you to understand where I'm coming from.

If I wanted SF, I had to initiate. He'd go along with it. For a guy WAY into porn, you'd think he'd have a more imaginative actual sex life, but after reading MANY sex addiction books I learned that this just wasn't so. I'd have to chase him down for SF and get little affection.

I asked him to take the lead. I was getting little Fulfillment from our SF. I could see him get all stifled and I'd ask him to relax, make it fun. Hell, I'd pack a picnic basket, blanket, suggest a drive to secluded woods, and he'd just sit there. I'd have to do it ALL. If I didn't jump him, it didn't happen. I felt unattractive and unwanted. I told him so. I've been as honest with him as I could be. I NEEDED him to WANT me. I have babydoll nighties, I have toys, lotions, whips, I bought him a wrestler mask and asked him to 'jump' me when I wasn't expecting it. He never did. I'm the most willing wifey here...

I've been doing the work in this relationship for too long.
I don't know IF he can do the work. I really don't. I'm starving for affection. I was probably sitting in the next room, lonely while he was yanking it. If he had offered SF I'd have jumped on it

So, NO - I don't KNOW that we can have a fantastic marriage.

Let me know when you are ready to start looking for solutions instead of excuses why you can't do what the rest of us have done. Many of us came from situations that were 10 times worse than yours.

Reading through your thread, I have to admit to being confused. You're both here now, you're both posting, so why not start the MB program today?

You have two plans of action that you can take.
1. Start MB and recover your marriage
2. Divorce him and move on

Waiting for him to take the lead is not a plan. It's limbo, which is cruel to your marriage, cruel to him, and cruel to yourself.

What do you want me to do?
Why am I the bad guy here?

Why cant you guys vet him out for a while and let me know if he's safe or not?

He's canceled his CBT.
He blew off his men's group.
These are not good signs.

I've always been available for him.

He broke a giant promise to me.

Start MB. Today.

I am not here to vet out your husband, whatever that means. We are here to help you both save your marriage and turn this around.

I know he broke a promise. And I also know you are punishing him for it instead of looking for solutions. Men's group and CBT won't save your marriage. MB can and will if you stop the blame game and get to work here.

Go over on the In Recovery forum and read the suggestions we gave him.

Go through your thread and make a list of every suggestion that has been made to you. Then, start working through every item on the list.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think anybody's posting with the intent to identify "bad guys" and "good guys" in your marriage. Instead, everybody's presented a plan that can save your marriage. Do you want to save your marriage or not? If so, it's best to start acting like a team instead of trying to take sides and get people on your side.

I'm on the side of your marriage.

Brenda, your husband posted something that concerns me terribly and I would suggest you reconsider this path. It won't help your marriage and comes across like you are punishing him. And if you are punishing him, it needs to stop.

"Sex on the other hand will have to wait. She wants a 30 day moratorium, and I have agreed. I WILL survive 3 more weeks without a slip-up, and hopefully we can get our SF going after that."

What is the purpose of this? If a lack of SF is one of the contributors to the problem, I see this as harmful, not helpful. How does this help your marriage in any way?

OK, I'm a little more rational today. We had a nice talk last night and I got a hug.

I asked him to post on MB101, that's why I did not see his thread. That's probably good, I'll be less tempted to look.

He is 30' down the hall from me at work all day. I do want us to have separate threads. I don't want to get all emotional at work. It just cant happen. I want for each of us to be able to ask questions independently.

The 30 Day Moratorium is a Sex Addicts thing that goes along with his Mens Group. It's about clearing your mind from obsessive fantasy. I mean, he HAD to masturbate because I want available for three days?! That's insane. I DID NOT ask him to do the moratorium, just to read the chapter, because I was hell-fire pissed at him when this all went down and didn't see my self as being available to him for, well, more than three days! I asked him about it last night in which I found out he missed the point completely.

I'll do MB with him, but I'm not going to chase him down with forms and a clip board like last time. It made me feel pathetic. First I'm coming in 2nd to pixels on a computer, then I have plead to get him involved in our marriage? I'm not going to beg him to love me. This is really my last effort. I'll see how involve he's really going to be. I'm not going to care more than he does.

Thank you, again.

When my husband attended a sex addictions group through our church, the men were told to simply STOP masturbating, porn, etc. They were not advised to avoid sex with their wives. Most men have a craving for sex and a month moratorium on sex is not a good idea.

Create a schedule where you both meet to work together on MB materials. That way no one is chasing anyone down. You have a block of time already scheduled and each comes to the session ready. We always read a few pages together aloud first, then discussed. We'd continue each night until we were done with the chapter, then we'd spend that block of time working on our worksheets together. It helped keep us accountable to each other and scheduling the sessions made it simple. We only did this for maybe an hour each evening, and we followed this time up with something fun.

Great advice from longwayhome. I would also suggest you go read his thread.

It's a good idea to sit down tonight and start scheduling your UA time. And whatever you do, avoid discussion about mistakes of the past. Constantly bringing up his mistakes will ruin your UA time.

Please stick to Marriage Builders concepts and avoid mixing in other programs. All you do is weaken the ability of this program to help your marriage. A little of this and a little of that will be a disaster because all you do is water it down. Stick to MB because it is a proven, effective program. A moratorium on sex is insane and will make the problem worse.

If you are not going to follow this program correctly you aren't going to get any benefit. UA time should be devoted to meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs, not 3. Cutting corners will avail you nothing.

"? I'm not going to beg him to love me. This is really my last effort. I'll see how involve he's really going to be."

But you are not involved yourself. You are angry at him, which makes this worse. Your anger only pushes him away even more. If the solution is to create a passionate, intimate marriage, that can't be done if you are angry.

How would you rate yourself on Lovebusters? How would he rate you? Do you have angry outbursts? Disrespectful judgements? And how well do you think you meet his ENs?

The question of the ages:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

OK, we talked more last night. We went on a good walk (exercise), and cleared up the Moratorium issue. He asked me out on a date tonight, I said yes.

The Men's Group and CBT are his ideas. The idea that he might be depressed was brought up earlier on this thread, so him talking with a therapist didn't bother me.

That he wanted to get with a Men's group to help get him off the couch didn't bother me, either. If it also help keep him motivated to do MB I also thought that would be a good idea, that it all worked together nicely. I didn't see a conflict. He's overcoming a LOT of inertia here. Note, he's done neither so you may have nothing to worry about.

My LB's that he's spoken of include my using harsh tone of voice and pressuring him/rushing him. I look for these now, and I've asked him to use phrases like "give me a second" to let me know when he needs more time. Before he would not say anything to me until he'd blow up. That one still comes up. I've had Annoying Habits that I've worked to eliminate. It's hard to get my LB's out of him.

Here's to Date Night!

Please post that to him.
I am VERY sexual. I've turned him down 2-3 times in the 15 years, and then it's only been a rain check, quickly cashed. He gets nervous initiating, makes too big a deal of it, gets in a routine, whatever... I'm the one starving while he's meeting his own needs. When I was 'in charge' everything was great for him, as he said to me last night. It wasn't great for me. It seems to me that he wants it like a porn movie, where the woman is just ready and jumps on the guy and does all the work.

Thank you.

So, you're going to start planning 4 hour date nights 4 times a week, meeting all four intimate emotional needs (Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and ending the date with scheduled Sexual Fullfillment)?

Please don't tell us what to post
When someone posts something for you to read, please use the opportunity to learn instead of itching for him to be educated.

These are DJs

If you are going to want to recover, you are going to have to stop dwelling on the mistakes of the past and focus on following the program in the present.

Which includes scheduled sex. Both of you complain about having to initiate. Neither of you HAS to. Schedule sex, at least 4 times a week, after you have spent 4 hours of UA meeting the other 3 intimate needs. And don't bring up the past again.

Did you read the article? He'll never get the sex he needs if you don't work to get educated and partner with him.

OK, very sorry...

HE SAID.. all those things.

I'm trying hard not to DJ, but DJ would be my biggest LB's. They are mostly internal/unexpressed, but I do DJ him. HE WOULD NOT SAY it's my biggest LB, but I would.

"I" was getting little "F" in the SF. I asked him to take lead. His complaint last night when we were talking that was when he was in charge was that it was too 'scheduled' 'routine' (his schedule, his routine). If you/I suggest scheduled SF (and I hate to DJ here) he's not gonna like it.

He's wanting the unbridled, rodeo stuff that I came up with, when he never knew it was coming. Then he could watch tv again. See the resentment? I didn't get intimate conversation, affection, I ran out of rodeo tricks after 8-10 years, I gave him the reigns. What do we do here?

So ... did you read the article?

So don't. You don't know what he's thinking. Leave it unsaid.

Start planning 4 hour date nights 4 times a week, meeting all four intimate emotional needs (Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and ending the date with scheduled Sexual Fullfillment). And don't bring up the past again.

No one initiates. You enjoy a date together, then you enjoy sex together.

Brenda, I completely understand why you never really got much out of Marriage Builders over the years. You apparently have cherry picked it to death which renders the program useless. And I see you doing that again now. You are inserting your own idea of what will or won't work and the truth is that you don't really know what you are doing. I did the same thing in my own marriage and wasted about 5 years of valuable time. Once I started doing the program in its entirety, things began to change.

So I am not going to repeat myself over and over and over again. I will just accept that you have rejected my suggestion to follow the program exactly and eliminate all the other crap that will just water it down and waste your time.

IT is your right to waste your time just like it is my right to not post to someone who is less serious about their own marriage than me. If that changes, give me a shout and I will come back.

P.s. Markos and Prisca have 6 little kids and I hope you will not waste their valuable time either. They have also been through the MB course and can give you invaluable advice if you will just follow it.

Please listen.
Radio Clip on Disrespectful Judgments
Segment #2
Segment #3

I think I've been pretty clear that I wasn't sure if I wanted to stay in this marriage AT ALL. I've been here trying to talk myself into recommitting to the marriage, and then MB. Please understand my reluctance. Why doesn't anyone understand?

It's not that I'm cherry-picking, I hadn't committed to anything. There's a difference.

Look at the title of the thread, look at the questions I've been asking you...

I love him, but he's hurt me a lot.

He's made a lot of promises that's he's not been able to keep.

I'm supposed to be smarter than to keep re-exposing myself to this kind of pain. And yet, I have apparently chosen to. That's progress.

I know what DJ's are, I'm aware how destructive they are, but with his stubborn refusal to address his LB's I'm left with my own brain telling me stories. Asking him to address his LB's didn't help. So I shut up. Things finally came to a head. They can get now be addressed.

And repeating something he said is not a DJ.

Again, I don't understand why I'm the bay guy here when he's trashed this relationship up one side and down the other. I've been faithful and loving. You can ask him, if you like. He's been a reclusive, lying porn addict. I tried getting him into MB and he gave it less than a half-assed effort.

I will listen & read the links.
Thank you all for your help.

I think you need to make a decision whether you are going to do this or not. The plan will work if you both follow it. So far he sounds perfectly willing to follow it. If you're not planning to, it's not really fair to him to lead him on.

If you don't want to remain married to your husband, then separate and divorce. If you are interested in building a good marriage, then commit to doing the MB work. That involves eliminating lovebusters and meeting each other's emotional needs. Have you learned about the lovebusters? Posters on your thread have identified Disrespectful Judgements that you have written, but, you don't seem to recognize them.

So, are you going follow the program or not? If you aren't, you are wasting the time of the most experienced veterans on MB.

AM

No, you haven't.

Sounds like a Renter.

Look at our answers.

Yes. Are you wanting to dwell on that, or repair the damage?

More dwelling. Whether you keep this marriage or not, dwelling on these painful actions on his part will only hinder you.

So are you going to stop?

What about your stubborn refusal?

Tell it to shut up.

So are you going to?

Yes, it very well can be.

You haven't done any trashing?
No one has said you are the "bad guy." So cut that crap, ok?

DJs aren't loving.

me...me..me... <<<raising hand>>>

I understand....

You want to use the forum as a "personal blog" and do not want MB advice.

Anyone's attempts to help you are a nuisance.

Over the years there have been many many people to use the forum in just this manner.

I totally get it.

committed

exactamundo.....

I could not make a snap decision about this marriage.
I have decided to stay.
I did create this account, I did ask him to, also.

After two weeks of avoiding him and considering D, with him sleeping in the guest room, I did start to engage him again. I started eating with him, talking with him. Talking about MB.

We had our first date night last Thurs that ended with SF. I cried afterwards, but did not let him know.

The next day, last Friday morning, I suggested we take off early, like we used to in the good ole days. By noon I said, "It's a gorgeous day, let's go to So&So place, have a glass of wine on the patio and plan out our evening & weekend."

This is significant because 1) we just had SF for the first time in two weeks lest than 24 hrs earlier, some follow up cozy was needed. 2) we'd spent the last two weekends apart, I'd not asked him to spend ANY time with me since all this happened. I initiated this date 3) the traffic gets bad later in the day and we'd not be able to get a romantic table if we left later on a Friday

When I left at 2pm I asked if he was right behind me, he said he wanted to finish a project, but he was almost done.

I went home, fixed my hair, make up, changed clothes, tended to the animals, looked up and it had been an hour. I called to find out he was still into his project. He reluctantly came home.

He yelled at me, said he would NOT take the blame for this because I didn't tell him that it was IMPORTANT that he came home. He said this 6+ times. He said it was important that he "Honor His Commitment to the Project" (he said this 6+ times) and that "We didn't have REAL plans", "Our plans were not Important, it was JUST wine on a patio" (he said this 6+ times). Every time I heard "YOU" were not important. I broke out in a cold sweat the first time he said it.

I felt like such a chump. He got his SF the night before, and I get dumped for a robot.

Then he yelled at me, he called BS on me "Waiting till I got upset before I called him, that I was supposed to call BEFORE I got upset".

I said I didn't even know I was upset until I realized I got stood-up for a box of parts.

He yelled until I broke down, sobbing.
I don't sob, I don't cry when we fight. I'm just worn out.

He apologized, he hugged me, and we pulled off a nice night.

THIS is what I mean about having to BEG him to be with me and participate. Why to I have to TELL him that I'm more important than a box of parts? I asked him three times during the day to take off early with me.

This has been a reoccurring issue, It's MY job to tell him when it's important for him to keep his word. His promises can be superseded by a more important promise, like the one he made to himself to assemble a robot.

We had SF again on Saturday morning and I got blindsided with crying again. This time I asked him to hold me tightly and tell me sweet things. He did.

He had another AO on Sunday when we were going to watch a game with friends and I asked him if we could pick up a friend to give him a ride (instead of friend taking busses). He yelled till I was sobbing again, said he would NOT be taken advantage of because of all of 'this'. I apologized profusely, then he did.

We had a good talk last night. He said he'd ordered the MB books and we talked about his AO's. He had a HUGE AO about two months ago that did a LOT of damage. I kept asking him where that came from, he kept saying nothing was wrong, but it was out of character. Vulgarity and everything. Thinking back, it was about the time he's admitted to starting masturbating aging.

So now we are waiting for the books. I am paying attention. I am participating.
Thank you.

Glad you are back and ready to get to work. Which books did you order?

Another thing I would start doing today is listening to the radio show together. Download the MB radio app [its on iphone, android and ipad] and start every day. That will help you understand the program faster. It is an amazing free resource.

Sooo ... are you going to start planning those 4 hour dates, 4 times a week?

Are you committed to never bring up the past again?

Are you committed to POJA?

Are you committed to eliminating your DJs and IB?

He said he ordered 'All' the books.

We'll do the radio tonight.

We got hung up on POJA last time. I think we need to get the work books and start from scratch on some of this stuff. He told me he could not imagine using RH with me, POJA, or PORH last time. It was part of 'being taken advantage of'. (not DJ, he told me).

I've been actively working on my DJ's. He said he'd start working on his AO's last night.

Looking forward, not backwards. Thank you.

I would start with the first five chapters of Lovebusters AND schedule out your UA time for the week. You can't include time you are working together either.

The POJA does feel like one is being taken advantage of when it is exercised as a VETO power and not a method to make decisions that both are enthusiastic about.

Are you going to start planning those 4 hour dates, 4 times a week?

Yes, we had date night last night. We grilled, chatted, played cards and listened to music. It was nice.

The first book arrived today, HN/HN.
Also downloaded the radio ap.

Did it end with SF?

Wonderful

Does that mean you spent date night at home? If so, how was it any different from just a night at home?

Nice!

No SF. I think me crying last time has thrown him off...

Does Date Night have to be in a crowded restaurant?
How is that intimate?

We've spent a good amount of time and money remodeling our home. We have a nice deck and view. We love to cook, it's a hobby we enjoy together (although he cooked for me last night, so that was especially nice).

Last night was different in that we didn't turn on the TV. That is a biggie. We talk while we play cards. That's nice.

Also different in that if we go out, we run into friends. Home, we are guaranteed alone time.

Does "Date Night" have to be OUT? We do not have children.

Some of my H's and my best times are on our patio. And we also cook together and have taken a cooking class together.

I don't think UA time has to be "out", especially since you don't have children. It should be a time of UNDIVIDED attention, without the distractions of housework, chores, TV, etc. Ideally, it should meet the four critical emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. That is the biggest bang for the buck, making the most love bank deposits for both of you.

AM

Here. The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

UA time is met when meeting the four intimate ENs.

This is one thing that tends to vacillate - Dr. Harley is oft quoted saying that good, quality UA time should be spent out of the home, but several people have had e-mail exchanges or have written into the radio about this, and Dr. Harley doesn't completely disqualify UA time at home.

So, I would follow that with SugarCane's question; if you are trying to do UA time at home, how is it different from all the other time you spend at home?

Secondly, I would not get into a habit of doing UA time at home, as this would likely lead to not doing UA time at all. It's too easy to brush it off and go into lounge mode.


I'll use an off-hand example here; going to a movie is not something that qualifies as UA time, but it is a favorite activity of my wife and I. So, rather than going to a movie being the bulk of a date, it is the centerpiece, and it is usually preceded by shopping or window shopping, then the movie, and then dinner/dessert/drinks afterward.

The good thing about this setup is that when we are having our meal, the movie drives conversation.


Anyway, a plan for home date may be set up in a similar fashion like so;

Shop for the meal together, and/or go for a drive for a bit.

Have the meal, both be active and talking during meal prep. Enjoy the meal.

Draw up and enjoy a hot bath together, and have a nice, quiet environment set up in the bedroom...

Brenda!

Start planning SF as part of your dates.

The only concern I have about you having UA at home is whether or not you are going to put the effort into it that it needs.

Dr. Harley allows for it IF (BIG IF) you put the effort into it to make it the highlight of your week. The temptation is to get lazy, wear sloppy clothes, sit on separate couches and watch TV. Or to get distracted by household responsibilities.

You will need to be at your best -- dress up for each other and focus on each other completely, being affectionate, engaging in intimate conversation, and doing something recreationally you both enjoy. AND END THE EVENING WITH SEX.

Since you didn't end the last date at home with sex, I wonder if you are going to be able to put the effort into dates at home.

The reason that dates OUT are typically so much more effective it is too easy to get distracted by the TV, phone, undone chores at home. It is so easy to get pulled away. We do a good job cooking dinner together and visiting in the kitchen, but that is about 2 hours total. And I would not consider that quality time. We don't dress up for it either.

On the other hand, when we go out on a "HOT DATE", we dress up a little and are out of the environment where do chores and get phone calls. We are FORCED to focus on each other, which is very intimate. Keep in mind that most dating couples don't fall in love sitting on the couch at home. They go out! It is much more exciting and intimate for us. We flirt in the car on the ride over and flirt in the restaurant over dinner. Sometimes we even sit next to each other in the booth! That is VERY intimate.

Another thing we do that really is intimate but doesn't sound like it, is going shopping together! Even though people are around, all of our attention is on each other and we talk and flirt.

Then when we get home from our HOT DATE................

The latter events deposit massive lovebank units, whereas staying home just doesn't do it for us. When are out together, we have no choice but to be together, but when we are at home, we find we are so easily distracted.

I would avoid the temptation of pencil whipping this exercise because unless you change your habits, you are wasting your time. And most couples absolutely REFUSE to follow the POUA because they do not want to change their bad habits. As a result, they never fall in love and then wonder why it doesn't work!

This is not a problem. We run into people too. We wave HI and get back to our conversation! You are guaranteed time alone when you go out.

SERIOUSLY.


We ain't rich, so we tour our local thrift shops, talk, dig... and try stuff on.

We dress each other.

If we decide to buy... we spend like 20 bucks.


That's a cheap date.

Didn't you read about our fist fight in Kroger over $2.99 lettuce?? Brother, you don't know cheap until you have met my husband! We like to go to Wal-Mart or Sam's and browse the aisles. Did I mention my DH is so tight he squeaks when he walks??? We can spend the evening looking for STD oil whatever and then wandering over to the electronics aisle. Then we go to the pop aisle and he gets 2 - 2 liters of Orange Crush.

We go on dates to WAL-MART! Meow!!

Brenda,

Whatever activity you choose, it should be enjoyable to BOTH of you. Dr. Harley frequently jokes about how much his wife Joyce likes shopping and how much he hates shopping. Neither my H nor I enjoy shopping, so that would not be a good example for UA for my H and me. For us, sitting on the patio in front of a fire and watching the stars come out would be much better.

I do agree with the other comments about UA time at home potentially not being "special" enough. It could be easy to slip into doing the "have to's".

Have you and your H completed the recreational compationshop inventory? What are the things you like to do together? What did you do on dates before you were married?

AM

Just want to point out that Brenda and her hubby have been doing "UA TIME" at home and work for 10 years now. She has been a board member here for TEN YEARS. And she told me earlier they spend 100+ hours together every week. So she has not effectively made UA time work at home in the past and I am not seeing how she can do that in the future.

My suggestion would be to GET IN THE HABIT of having UA time every week, which means going out and getting QUALITY UA time via 4 - 4 hour dates. Go out on DATES, rather than sitting around at home. Do this right and when they fall in love again, they can try UA time at home.

I think a couple who is already in love can get away with this. But Brenda and her husband have been pencil whipping this exercise for years and are not in the habit of meeting each others needs.

ALL they did at home was turn off the TV. That was the only change and I don't consider that UA time.

See, she thinks she has been spending UA time with him all along. She told me this in her initial post. So the only thing that has changed is they turned off the TV.

Hopefully, they also eliminated the lovebusters. They have had a plethora of independent behavior, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

There seems to be several things that effect the quality of UA time. Any time together that is full of arguments and disrespect is not going to be pleasant and won't make love bank deposits. Likewise, distractions (divided attention?) won't contribute love bank deposits.

I agree that leaving the house is a good thing. A different location, a different activity, if enjoyable to BOTH spouses most likely makes the most love bank deposits. For H and me, there is no way that going to Wal Mart or trying on clothes in a thrift store would be a fun date and add to our love banks. That's the utility of the recreational companionship inventory. I haven't seen where Brenda and her H have identified fun things they like to do as a couple. Perhaps, I missed it.


Another reason to leave the house is that most people behave better in public. Seeing someone fight over lettuce in a grocery store is a rarity. Actually, I don't think I have ever seen it. Some probably fight in the car. But, I would guess that most people fight at home, out of sight of the public. So, going out where there is less chance of an argument is a good thing.

I think one of the biggest romance killers is the TV. Most people flip it on and zone out in front of it for hours and hours each week. What a waste of time that could be really spent together. I have never understood people who have TVs all over their house, in the kitchen, in the bedroom. H and I have never had a TV in the bedroom. I can't imagine cuddling while the news is on, some comedian is babbling or worse still some police show is on. So, leaving the TV off or throwing it out the second story window would be a good thing if replaced by mutually enjoyable activities.

AM

Whatever!

And I agree about the shopping thing. That would never work for others. And it doesn't work for us unless it is certain stores. No malls for my husband!

My own understanding of Dr H is that UA time should be as much like a date as possible. I don't think that spending a night at home is at all like a date - an event to dress up for and look forward to - no matter how lovely the home is.

Of course, what counts as a date (outside the home) will be different for different couples, but I think Dr Harley has always stressed that it should feel like a date - not like a nice night in.

AGree. There is a completely different "feel" to UA time spent out on a HOT DATE than their is by staying home. I do think some ppl can make that work, but most CAN'T. This couple has not been able to make that work. All they did was turn off the TV and call it good.

The only time that staying at home feels like a date is when it involves a French Maid's outfit and some whipped cream. Apart from that, it's just staying in.

Can I forward that message to the Mrs? Or would that be a form of a selfish demand?

This wouldn't work for H and me. His hairy legs are unattractive in the French Maid outfit.

Sharon,

Do you and your husband exercise? Dr. Harley recommends that couples exercise together. Exercise releases all those feel good endorphins and promotes an association of good feelings about your exercise partner.

OK, it wasn't HOT Date night, I can see that. We did eliminate LB's, AO's and DJ's. It was sweet and nice. The music made it romantic. It was difficult to make it last for four hours. SF would have helped that part.

We were not distracted by chores, but we did find ourselves with an awkward 'what do we do now' feeling. We certainly did not dress up for it.

We do spend all RC time together, so it is difficult to see how to ramp it up to Hot Date Night.

We've got a 12 hour road-trip planned for this weekend (6 hours driving roundtrip, some hiking, SF, lots of conversation). Going to one of our favorite places. That will include the top EN's.

Last night we exercised (he tried one of mine), we read, he read HN/HN, we talked, had a nice dinner at home. We've limited TV time permanently. That was just out of control and cause a lot of resentment for me.

Tonight is social obligation night, but we're going to make it nice and fun. Looking forward to weekend trip!

The goal is not just turning off the TV and eliminating lb's, the goal is to create a romantic environment, a HOT DATE.


WHAT do you mean by RC time? What EXACTLY do you do and with whom?

It has not helped your marriage so you are doing something wrong. Just hanging out in the same room is not UA time.

I couldn't agree more with this.

OK, Social Obligation night turned into Hot Date night.

We had been planning this event for months, big social to-do, we were on a committee.
We were looking forward to it.
We dressed up.
We flirted all night, although we were surrounded by friends.
We stayed out very late.
It ended it hot rodeo SF.

Tons of fun.

Typical RC is all of our hobbies that we do together. We work on projects, fix and maintain these projects, sometimes present to groups. We travel local and abroad, alone and with friends. This weekend is alone. We are both looking forward to tomorrows trip.

Here's a good show on romantic love.

Radio Clip on Romantic Love
Segment #2