My husband and I have been married for four years. We are in a blended family. He has two children and i have two.
He is not physically abusive and does not damage property in anger. He is very intimidating when he is angry and I feel he has passive aggressive behavior and directs his anger at me (ie. yelling, nasty looks, cold shoulder, ignoring, unloving). I have told him it is ok for him to be angry but NOT ok for him to direct his anger at me.
This past weekend is the most recent example of his anger. He yelled at me and when I told him I was staying at a friends he chanted that he didn't care. He continually tells me that what I am doing is 'continuing the distruction of our relationship' and I feel he threatens leaving the relationship. I admit, I make mistakes (unfortunetly a lot of them) and by no means do I ever want to hurt him. His love is completely withdrawn. I have stayed the past two nights away as I do not want to be around his anger as I can feel his anger toward me and it is so uncomfortable.
Last night I had him care for my two children along with his one that lives in the home while I stayed out. One of my daughters told me he was mad when he found out that she was texting me. She is 13 and says that it was a look that he gave her that indicated he was 'mad'.
I don't know what to do. I don't want to go home but I don't want to be around him. I know if I ask him to leave it will make him even more angry. I love him deeply and do not want a divorce. I want my children to not go to their dad and tell him we are having marriage problems. I'm in so much conflict with my feelings but know I do not want to be at home when he is there. I miss home but don't want his anger directed at me. I don't want to pay to stay elsewhere as it will get really costly. I can stay at a friends house but do not want to overdue my stay.
Husband thinks I am the one with issues. That I am stuck on anger dealing with his adult daughter. I don't think I am stuck on her but more baffled by her choices. The marriage counselor we went to see backed him up in that I needed to get past it, however since my husband told me he is okay with what she does to him I have backed off. I only cared for his well-being and if he wants to be abused by her that is his problem to deal with now.
I have shared this program with him as I really would like to do the full program but he has not persued anymore than saying it looked like a good program and that he wanted to look at the bookstore for other ideas.
So I guess I come to.... what do i do tonight? He agreed to help take care of my kids (while I get help). Do I go home to protect them and endure the anger that fumes from him? Do I leave them there and I stay somewhere else, leaving my kids in a possible hostile situation due to his anger toward me? Do I take the kids and go stay somewhere else, making him more angry that I took them out of his care?
HELP!
Can i ask why you continue to do things you know cause him anger? There is no excuse for his anger, but do you purposely anger him? For example, why would a married woman stay with friends for the weekend?
How did you meet? Dd your relationship start as an affair?
I do not do things to anger him on purpose. I only do what I do because of my feelings. We met at church through a joint friend. We were both divorced. I am staying with friends because of his anger.
Have you ever asked his XWife her perspective on why their marriage failed?
Might be revealing if she divorced him due to his anger/outbursts/lovebusters.
I do not do things to anger him on purpose. I only do what I do because of my feelings. We met at church through a joint friend. We were both divorced. I am staying with friends because of his anger.
You said he got angry as a reaction to your telling him you were staying at friends house for the weekend. Is that what brought his anger on?
His ex wife said he is controlling. So he goes off the handle if I ever say I feel that he is being controlling. His ex has her own issues. He says he has changed dramatically since his divorce. I can see that he is more gentle with his younger daughter. He is very loving toward his kids and that is one reason I fell in love with him.
It was not that I said I was going to stay at a friends house that made him angry. It is a continuing battle of him feeling disrespected and that I have not let his adult daughter go. To be short with the daughter issues, she struggles with not being put before me and feels that her son loves me more than her. If she doesn't get her way she alienates her dad. He is loving and communicates with her as she allows. He has always been there for her but will not pick her over me.
I hear his feelings of disrespect and learn from each time he shares his feelings. Many times he shares them in anger like I am doing them on purpose to disrespect him.
It is a continuing battle of him feeling disrespected and that I have not let his adult daughter go.
What things do you do that make him feel disrespected?
To be short with the daughter issues, she struggles with not being put before me and feels that her father loves me more than her. If she doesn't get her way she alienates her dad. He is loving and communicates with her as she allows. He has always been there for her but will not pick her over me.
This sounds like a young lady who has learned to survive by manipulating those around her and a father who is handling this correctly.
I hear his feelings of disrespect and learn from each time he shares his feelings. Many times he shares them in anger like I am doing them on purpose to disrespect him.
Have you tried validating his feelings? It is perfectly normal to be upset when you feel disrespected. Anger is childish and always inappropriate but you might be able to guide him into a better way of expressing his feelings by giving him undivided attention when he talks.
Then at a neutral moment later on tell him how his anger causes you to flood and prevents you from hearing what he is saying.
What things do you do that make him feel disrespected?
He says my response of 'ok' and 'thanks for sharing' make him feel like i am saying he is an idiot and saying this is the way it is going to be so too bad. I had made a decision without him and recanted part of a chore on my daughter when he wasn't around. I agree that I should have spoken to him and I apologized. He feels disrespected a lot which makes me feel like I can never really please him. It is this sort of thing that he thinks I do over and over again because he feels I disrespect him. He says he has a hard time being the fun guy with my kids because he feels he is not respected by them when it comes to him telling them to do things. My kids listen to him well. Better than myself because he is scarier. He says he feels like he is taken advantage. I am boarderline ADD and not medicated. He sees the ADD in me with how I switch tasks in the middle of things and eventually get them done. He has told me things that are important to him like keeping the clothes off the couch (which i have done very well to remember), closing cabinet and closet doors (which i feel i have done very well), keeping the kitchen clean, removing clutter, sharing who i am texting with or talking to, sharing who i am going out with, sharing scheduling and random things that keep the 'team' informed on the family. I am not good at them all but i feel i have mastered the couch being kept clothing free and I try really hard to put the clothes away or only put them on my office chair if they need to sit for a bit. I have also focused on closing cabinets and doors and deal with that everyday. I know this sounds stupid but I am very scatterbrained and these things are not important to me so I have to constantly keep my mind on them. I forget a lot of things and he says that 'I forgot' does nothing for our relationship. If I leave a single dish (pampered chef stone) dirty on the stove for three nights he blows up on me and tells me how he is being disrespected. I had cleaned up everything else. I want to make him happy. I am feeling more controlled.
This sounds like a young lady who has learned to survive by manipulating those around her and a father who is handling this correctly.
Yes, there is much more to the story here. I wouldn't say he is handling it all correctly but I am not allowed to have input on the matter. I feel he is doing what he can to have a relationship with her and the grandkids and keep me as his wife at a bare minimum. She has a cycle of shutting him out in some of the worst ways and then tip-toeing back into his life while never bringing up issues that need dealt with. She has done it multiple times since the four years we have been married and my husband tells me she did it before on other occassions. She has shut me out also and that does hurt. I miss the grandchild terribly. Husband says he is okay with her treating him terrible because he gets to see the grandkids. He does stand firm that he will not pick her over me and he will not ask me to leave the house for her to come over. He will go see her and keep me out of it to appease her and see the kids. It hurts but I know he just wants to have a relationship with them. I just think it is enabling. I know he loves her and the grandkids. He is really a loving father who only wants what is best for them. I feel he enables her to do it over and over but I have moved on since he is okay with her treating him that way. He believes I haven't moved on. It is not his daughter that is the issue, she is only a symptom of a greater issue between he and I. I do not feel I have unconditional love from him. He often says he is 'not going to have a relationship where....' and that my actions 'continue to be the distruction of our relationship'. I'm sure you can figure out the connection to the symptom.
Have you tried validating his feelings? It is perfectly normal to be upset when you feel disrespected. Anger is childish and always inappropriate but you might be able to guide him into a better way of expressing his feelings by giving him undivided attention when he talks.
I agree. He has a right to be upset and maybe even angry. I'm sure he feels violated. I am very open to hearing his feelings. As I said above, my response of 'ok' and 'thanks for sharing' are viewed as negative. I feel like I have to tip toe on eggshells with the words i use. I am working on listening. I have moved to taking notes when he speaks to me to distract me from wanting to defend myself. I can write down his thoughts and revisit them.
Then at a neutral moment later on tell him how his anger causes you to flood and prevents you from hearing what he is saying.
I have realized that there are two key things that I must work on. How I apologize and how I share my feelings. I have said 'I feel you are angry' and I have got to get it in my head that it should be more like 'when you are angry, i feel.....' It is coming to know the feelings I am having to be able to share them. I know i don't feel good! This must be why I like to write down and share things through email and text, because I can think through them more. These are the two challenges I am working through for myself. I just don't know if I can go stay at home and be in an environment where there is so much tension. I miss home and want to be home but I do not want to be around his anger.
I had made a decision without him and recanted part of a chore on my daughter when he wasn't around. I agree that I should have spoken to him and I apologized. He feels disrespected a lot which makes me feel like I can never really please him. It is this sort of thing that he thinks I do over and over again because he feels I disrespect him.
Blended families are really really hard to deal with. You have to POJA every single issue all the time all day long.
I feel he enables her to do it over and over but I have moved on since he is okay with her treating him that way. He believes I haven't moved on. It is not his daughter that is the issue, she is only a symptom of a greater issue between he and I. I do not feel I have unconditional love from him. He often says he is 'not going to have a relationship where....' and that my actions 'continue to be the distruction of our relationship'.
How much of Marriage Builders have you read? The reason I ask this is because Dr Harley does not believe in the idea of 'moving on' or in 'unconditional love'.
I agree. He has a right to be upset and maybe even angry. I'm sure he feels violated.
He does have the right to be upset but he does not have the right to be angry. His upset should discussed openly and honestly before it gets to the angry stage.
I have realized that there are two key things that I must work on. How I apologize and how I share my feelings. I have said 'I feel you are angry' and I have got to get it in my head that it should be more like 'when you are angry, i feel.....' It is coming to know the feelings I am having to be able to share them.
Great stuff!
I haven't read much of the marriage builders. I was trying to get him to do the program with me. He is saying to me that he doesn't think it will work. He tells me I am the one that needs to change.
I feel defeated. I don't have any more energy to put into making this work. I'm tired of feeling like my feelings do not matter in situations. I'm talking about the things that matter to me, not things like where we go to eat or the color of paint we put on the walls. I'm talking about things like doing this program where I have told him this is high in importance to me, but he knocks it down. Or parenting the kids. We both have the same vision but the execution is where we differ and my feelings are not considered as he feels the way he was raised is how it should be. It makes me feel like he is discounting the way i was raised and I didn't turn out too bad. But if you ask him, there are things he would change about me.
I just want to lock myself in a room and cry. Today, my depression is kicking into high gear. i don't like it.
Suggested truth telling:
I am rapidly losing any remaining love I have for you. Unless you agree to getting help for both of us, our marriage will end. I will not remain married to a man who does not care about my feelings. I know where we can get real help. I need help. Please, do this with me. I want to fall back in love with you.
Make an appointment with a 'MB' coach.
My husband and I have been married for 4 years and are a blended family. I feel my husband is abusive with angry outbursts and needs some major intervention with his anger.
Here is some background on the current situation.
My daughter (11yrs) almost missed the bus. His car was running and I asked him if he could run her to the next stop so she could catch it. He huffed and I said I would take her. He growled and said i will do it in a very snotty way.
I shut the door and called him a jerk (not where he could hear me) and his daughter 11 heard me(which I did not know she was in the room. She told him as soon as he walked in the door and he stormed upstairs to where I was (using the toilet)and bolted in the bathroom where he proceeded to tower over me (I am 5�6�155lbs, he is 6�4� & 320lbs), yell at me that I can call him any names I want to my friends but I am not to call him names in front of his daughter, tell me if I would make my children mind it wouldn�t be a problem and threaten that he is �this close� (I�m assuming to leaving).
I�m sure he was so loud in yelling at me that his daughter could hear downstairs. In my opinion it gives her the sweet satisfaction that she got me in trouble. From my perspective he was being a jerk. I could have called him much worse!! While I should not have done so within a possible earshot of his daughter, his actions were out of control.
Today I was talking to him on the phone and telling him that it was unacceptable to teach his daughter that it is okay to tattle on the other parent and show her that she can get me into trouble.
While his youngest has a controlled respect for me when her dad or I are with her, I know she does not respect me as a person and wife to her dad. His oldest (21) has zero respect for me and throws tantrums when she doesn�t get her way. (Kinda like my husband does) She will not allow me to touch her children and says that I undermine her and step out of line. I am not trying to be her mother and never care to be that figure in her life. I have tried to care about her and for her. She says that her son loves me more than her. There are lots of other issues there but the point is that his kids will never respect me as they grow older.
I told my husband that when he was yelling at me, he was verbally abusing me. He argued with me that it was not. He says he was frustrated and argued with me that if I would hold my kids accountable for things that wouldn�t happen.
We are going through the marriage builders coaching sessions and are awaiting scheduling our 4th appointment. I have filled out my questionnaires and sent them in. He is still working on his. It has been about a month since we had our last coaching session and we have not spoken about what we each heard in our individual coaching sessions as was requested by Steve. I did mention it to him today and he said yes, he does remember him saying we need to talk about what we heard and he needs to look at his questionnaires to make sure they are all done.
I don�t think I can continue in this marriage if he thinks his angry outbursts are okay and not abusive. Of all the lovebusters he does that is the worst and if he doesn't realize that is wrong behavior there is no way he will acknowledge the other ones. I know he has seen the videos. His ex wife says he was abusive (I�m not sure in what way) He has admitted to having anger issues in the past and he is much better now. He says his father had anger issues when he was growing up and he says he is nothing like him. (Scares me to think he could be worse)
I�m in such a tough spot. I want to work things out with him but I feel so distant from him. I want to be with him but I want to avoid him. How am I going to be able to give him what he needs if I hurt so badly and what he does pushes me away more? I don�t see my lovebusters being eliminated. How do I eliminate his lovebusters if that is the case?
My husband and I have been married for 4 years and are a blended family. I feel my husband is abusive with angry outbursts and needs some major intervention with his anger.
Here is some background on the current situation.
My daughter (11yrs) almost missed the bus. His car was running and I asked him if he could run her to the next stop so she could catch it. He huffed and I said I would take her. He growled and said i will do it in a very snotty way.
I shut the door and called him a jerk (not where he could hear me) and his daughter 11 heard me(which I did not know she was in the room. She told him as soon as he walked in the door and he stormed upstairs to where I was (using the toilet)and bolted in the bathroom where he proceeded to tower over me (I am 5�6�155lbs, he is 6�4� & 320lbs), yell at me that I can call him any names I want to my friends but I am not to call him names in front of his daughter, tell me if I would make my children mind it wouldn�t be a problem and threaten that he is �this close� (I�m assuming to leaving).
I�m sure he was so loud in yelling at me that his daughter could hear downstairs. In my opinion it gives her the sweet satisfaction that she got me in trouble. From my perspective he was being a jerk. I could have called him much worse!! While I should not have done so within a possible earshot of his daughter, his actions were out of control.
Today I was talking to him on the phone and telling him that it was unacceptable to teach his daughter that it is okay to tattle on the other parent and show her that she can get me into trouble.
While his youngest has a controlled respect for me when her dad or I are with her, I know she does not respect me as a person and wife to her dad. His oldest (21) has zero respect for me and throws tantrums when she doesn�t get her way. (Kinda like my husband does) She will not allow me to touch her children and says that I undermine her and step out of line. I am not trying to be her mother and never care to be that figure in her life. I have tried to care about her and for her. She says that her son loves me more than her. There are lots of other issues there but the point is that his kids will never respect me as they grow older.
I told my husband that when he was yelling at me, he was verbally abusing me. He argued with me that it was not. He says he was frustrated and argued with me that if I would hold my kids accountable for things that wouldn�t happen.
We are going through the marriage builders coaching sessions and are awaiting scheduling our 4th appointment. I have filled out my questionnaires and sent them in. He is still working on his. It has been about a month since we had our last coaching session and we have not spoken about what we each heard in our individual coaching sessions as was requested by Steve. I did mention it to him today and he said yes, he does remember him saying we need to talk about what we heard and he needs to look at his questionnaires to make sure they are all done.
I don�t think I can continue in this marriage if he thinks his angry outbursts are okay and not abusive. Of all the lovebusters he does that is the worst and if he doesn't realize that is wrong behavior there is no way he will acknowledge the other ones. I know he has seen the videos. His ex wife says he was abusive (I�m not sure in what way) He has admitted to having anger issues in the past and he is much better now. He says his father had anger issues when he was growing up and he says he is nothing like him. (Scares me to think he could be worse)
I�m in such a tough spot. I want to work things out with him but I feel so distant from him. I want to be with him but I want to avoid him. How am I going to be able to give him what he needs if I hurt so badly and what he does pushes me away more? I don�t see my lovebusters being eliminated. How do I eliminate his lovebusters if that is the case?
Wipedout, welcome to the MB forums. I'm glad to hear that you are being counselled by Steve. I'm assuming you and your H have discussed your H's anger issues with Steve? Has your H considered anger management counselling?
Tell us about the beginnings of your marriage. How did the two of you meet? Were either of you legally married to anyone else when you starting dating?
Tell us about the kids: how many, whose are they biologically, how old are they? Is the 21 yo and her child living with you?
I'm sorry there are so many questions, but if you could flesh out your sitch a little we might be able to help you better.
Are the two of you able to talk about your communication issues when you're both calm, without allowing it to blow up into an argument?
What have you told Steve about your husbands anger? What has he told you in response?
I don�t think I can continue in this marriage if he thinks his angry outbursts are okay and not abusive.
You are right. You will not be able to continue. Read this from Dr. Harley:
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.
Unless your husband eliminates his angry outbursts, your marriage will not survive.
Wipedout, welcome to the MB forums. I'm glad to hear that you are being counselled by Steve. I'm assuming you and your H have discussed your H's anger issues with Steve?
No we have not gotten to that topic. He does not always display his anger but pretty much chapter 2 of LoveBusters says it all about him.
Has your H considered anger management counselling?
He doesn't acknowledge he has anger issues
Tell us about the beginnings of your marriage. How did the two of you meet? Were either of you legally married to anyone else when you starting dating?
We met through a mutual friend. We attended the same church. He had been divorced for about 6 months. I had been divorced for 4 years.
Tell us about the kids: how many, whose are they biologically, how old are they? Is the 21 yo and her child living with you?
He has two and I have two. None together. All girls. My two are 11 and 13. His are 11 and 21. My two live with us full time and visit their dad every other weekend. His 11 year old is with us a week on and a week off but we see her every week on Monday's and Wednesday's and she sees her mom ever Tuesday and Thursday. The 21 year old is not living with us. She is married to her secon husband and her husband was just deployed yesterday. She has two children by separate fathers. The first was injured from shaking and now the father is serving time. I did not initially try to bond with her first born as she has a sick cycle of hurting those around her but when he was injured I came to my husbands side and bonded with him. In my opinion she is toxic. She has alienated me and her sons paternal biological family even though they stood by her when he was injured. I also found out that her new in-laws are not on speaking terms with her and their son because of her. She doesn't have many friendships and seems to only have her parents by her side. She has told her dad he needed to pick between her and myself and she says that I am selfish for not leaving the house so she can come and visit. She is mad at me for redoing a dresser for her sister that she was wanting to do for her unborn baby.
I'm sorry there are so many questions, but if you could flesh out your sitch a little we might be able to help you better..
Please ask away. I could write a book about all my issues.
Are the two of you able to talk about your communication issues when you're both calm, without allowing it to blow up into an argument?
No we can not communicate about anything we differ on. He is very judgemental and controlling. I tend to withdrawal. I hide the fact that I am so withdrawan on the inside. I am trying to meet his needs and eliminate lovebusters but it is all at my own expense.
Has your H considered anger management counselling?
He doesn't acknowledge he has anger issues
You need to prepare for a separation then, because this is not going to get better. I am sorry.
Wipedout, welcome to the MB forums. I'm glad to hear that you are being counselled by Steve. I'm assuming you and your H have discussed your H's anger issues with Steve?
No we have not gotten to that topic. He does not always display his anger but pretty much chapter 2 of LoveBusters says it all about him.
You need to talk to Steve about this now. This problem must be solved first before anything else can be.
Has your H considered anger management counselling?
He doesn't acknowledge he has anger issues
You need to prepare for a separation then, because this is not going to get better. I am sorry.
And, yes, start preparing for separation. If he will not acknowledge his angry outbursts, he will do nothing to change.
Have you told your husband that you cannot continue in a marriage with Angry Outbursts?
I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."
It may take him a while to digest what you say, and he may leave in a huff. But once it sinks in, he will probably agree with you that at least some of the problem is his.
Wipedout, you have just been blessed with wisdom from two of our best posters, Markos and Prisca - they've had to deal with issues very much like yours and are well-suited to speak to your issues. I strongly suggest you heed their posts.
You need to talk to Steve about this now. This problem must be solved first before anything else can be.
I have filled out the lovebusters questionnaire which will inform Steve of the anger issue. I am awaiting H to finish his questionnaires so we can schedule our next appointment.
Have you told your husband that you cannot continue in a marriage with Angry Outbursts?
I have not directly said anything to him. I have told him in the past that he was controlling as I didn�t know how else to describe it. His ex told him he was controlling and it is a hot button of his. I want to see what Steve has to offer in our next session since he is now aware of the issue.
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
I hate that he sounds like a angry monster. I don�t feel he would say the above. Most of the time he is loving. His anger is a problem that does need addressed though. This morning he was angry that he tried to wake my daughter up for school and she wasn�t getting up after the third time. She went to bed late last night due to us being out so late due to sports practice and dinner. When I went in to her, I calmly told her to wake up and put her feet on the floor, then stand up. She got ready in time to be at the bus stop before the bus came. I know he doesn�t like that I am not harder on her. What I did, got the job done and she doesn�t feel poorly for it.
From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair�..If you are upset with our sexual relationship
Neither of us have had an affair on one another. I had one with my previous husband. My H is sensitive to that as he claims his ex had an affair on him. At one time it caused problems for us but he now sees that it is his baggage and I�m here to help him through it. As for SF, he seems happy. I am not but I think it is because of all the other lovebusters around it that make me feel that way.
Thanks for all the links and everyone�s input!!! While the suggestion of separation is not wanted it is good to hear it is the next step if the anger is not addressed.
Wipedout, you have just been blessed with wisdom from two of our best posters, Markos and Prisca - they've had to deal with issues very much like yours and are well-suited to speak to your issues. I strongly suggest you heed their posts.
I am very thankful and blessed for the feedback I have been getting!!!!!!
BrainHurts, thank you so much for the links. I will listen to them all today!!!!
You need to talk to Steve about this now. This problem must be solved first before anything else can be.
I have filled out the lovebusters questionnaire which will inform Steve of the anger issue. I am awaiting H to finish his questionnaires so we can schedule our next appointment.
Have you told your husband that you cannot continue in a marriage with Angry Outbursts?
I have not directly said anything to him. I have told him in the past that he was controlling as I didn�t know how else to describe it. His ex told him he was controlling and it is a hot button of his. I want to see what Steve has to offer in our next session since he is now aware of the issue.
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
I hate that he sounds like a angry monster. I don�t feel he would say the above. Most of the time he is loving. His anger is a problem that does need addressed though. This morning he was angry that he tried to wake my daughter up for school and she wasn�t getting up after the third time. She went to bed late last night due to us being out so late due to sports practice and dinner. When I went in to her, I calmly told her to wake up and put her feet on the floor, then stand up. She got ready in time to be at the bus stop before the bus came. I know he doesn�t like that I am not harder on her. What I did, got the job done and she doesn�t feel poorly for it.
From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair�..If you are upset with our sexual relationship
Neither of us have had an affair on one another. I had one with my previous husband. My H is sensitive to that as he claims his ex had an affair on him. At one time it caused problems for us but he now sees that it is his baggage and I�m here to help him through it. As for SF, he seems happy. I am not but I think it is because of all the other lovebusters around it that make me feel that way.
Thanks for all the links and everyone�s input!!! While the suggestion of separation is not wanted it is good to hear it is the next step if the anger is not addressed.
The point was about angry outbursts and bringing up past transgressions.
It doesn't have to involve infidelity.
The point is, you are not safe living with a person who excuses having constant angry outbursts.
Excellent links!!!!! I�m so tempted to share the radio broadcast to H. I prefer to communicate with him via text, email and phone and the radio broadcast helps explain why!!!! I want him to realize why I do this and that it is not my fault he loses his temper! Praise God I found this program and he is on board with working through it!!!!!!! A couple of questions I have about the article. What is FILSIL? The POJA has only been brought up in the education. Steve has not brought it up among the two of us. I found this several years ago and asked him about it. He was not in agreement with it then. I am hoping that Steve will help him to see that it is the only way we will both be happy in our marriage. I fear that the hang up will be that he won�t want to follow the POJA as I have issue with his 21 yo daughter who is toxic to our relationship. Understandably he wants to have a relationship with her. It is, however, at my expense.
FILSIL = Dr. Harley's Fall In Love Stay In Love book. I have it. it's a great book that summarizes and provides the path to implementing HNHN and Lovebuster principles.
I fear that the hang up will be that he won�t want to follow the POJA as I have issue with his 21 yo daughter who is toxic to our relationship. Understandably he wants to have a relationship with her. It is, however, at my expense.
This was an issue in my M as well. Steve will explain to him just as his sister Jennifer explained to my wife the two types of resentments.
There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse. Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.
I think you would agree with me that the first kind of resentment is the worst, because your husband knows you deliberately hurt him. It's no wonder he's having trouble recovering from the experience. Your poor communication may be partly due to the fact that he is still trying to recover from the shock.
The second kind of resentment, the kind you are experiencing, may be uncomfortable, but life is full of instances where we need to control ourselves for the protection of others. In other words, I'm saying that whatever resentment you may feel about not being able to see your friend is nothing compared to the resentment you would feel if your husband had indulged in an affair.
I hate that he sounds like a angry monster. I don�t feel he would say the above. Most of the time he is loving.
Don't defend him. His actions speak for themselves.
If he is having angry outbursts, but doesn't see it as a serious problem, he is not loving -- he is dangerous.
My husband was the same. He had explosive angry outbursts, but I defended him to everybody, telling them that he was really loving most of the time.
The fact is, he is abusing you. It doesn't matter if he acts loving most of the time.
Refusing to eliminate his anger is a very unloving act. It wasn't until I stopped defending my husband, and stood up to him, that he changed.
Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.
I never had an affair on him! You are the second person who has mentioned me having an affiar on him. I have never had an affair on him. He claims his ex wife did and I did with my ex.
I think you would agree with me that the first kind of resentment is the worst, because your husband knows you deliberately hurt him. It's no wonder he's having trouble recovering from the experience. Your poor communication may be partly due to the fact that he is still trying to recover from the shock.
If anything I am the one who is having this kind of resentment from the enabling behavior he has with his kids and how he allows SD21 to hurt me.
There is no 'friend' in question for me. Why would I want to mess around with another man when a man is the one that is causing me problems to begin with?
From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair�..If you are upset with our sexual relationship
Neither of us have had an affair on one another. I had one with my previous husband. My H is sensitive to that as he claims his ex had an affair on him. At one time it caused problems for us but he now sees that it is his baggage and I�m here to help him through it. As for SF, he seems happy. I am not but I think it is because of all the other lovebusters around it that make me feel that way.
Thanks for all the links and everyone�s input!!! While the suggestion of separation is not wanted it is good to hear it is the next step if the anger is not addressed.
The point was about angry outbursts and bringing up past transgressions.
It doesn't have to involve infidelity.
The point is, you are not safe living with a person who excuses having constant angry outbursts.
Exactly. The quote I gave you from Dr. Harley still applies here, even without any affairs going on.
You need to tell your husband that you are not going to live this way anymore. Either he agrees to eliminate his angry outbursts, or he loses you.
I want him to realize why I do this and that it is not my fault he loses his temper! Praise God I found this program and he is on board with working through it!!!!!!!
But he is not on board. You commented that "He doesn't acknowledge he has anger issues." As long as he doesn't see his anger as a problem, he is not on board.
I want him to realize that it is not my fault he loses his temper!
Here's the problem you are likely to confront: it is not your fault he loses his temper. You know that, and we know that. However, he may argue against it.
As long as your husband disagrees and maintains that losing his temper is not his fault, he will not take this problem seriously, and you should be preparing for a separation, because this problem is going to destroy your marriage.
You can't make him agree that losing his temper is your fault. What you can do is protect yourself and your children from his temper. If he HAS to eliminate his angry outbursts in order to keep you, then he may choose to stop debating whose fault it is and learn to control his temper. Or he may choose to continue to blame you, and lose you. It will be his choice at that point, and you will have to let him make it.
You need to talk to Steve about this now. This problem must be solved first before anything else can be.
I have filled out the lovebusters questionnaire which will inform Steve of the anger issue. I am awaiting H to finish his questionnaires so we can schedule our next appointment.
I wouldn't wait on him to complete his questionnaires before contacting Steve again. It's been a month since your last session? That is too long. Schedule another appointment to talk to Steve about your husbands anger, and inform your husband of the date and time. Invite him to join you. Don't wait on him.
I never had an affair on him! You are the second person who has mentioned me having an affiar on him. I have never had an affair on him. He claims his ex wife did and I did with my ex.
No, you are misunderstanding. People are quoting letters from Dr. Harley. In those letters, Dr. Harley was talking to someone who had an affair.
I never had an affair on him! You are the second person who has mentioned me having an affiar on him. I have never had an affair on him. He claims his ex wife did and I did with my ex.
No, you are misunderstanding. People are quoting letters from Dr. Harley. In those letters, Dr. Harley was talking to someone who had an affair.
AH!!! Thanks markos for straightening out my understanding. It was hard to tell they were from other letters. I appreciate everyones input. You are right he is not on board with the program, however he was on board for signing up and being on two calls so far. For that I am thankful. I will do as suggested and make an appointment with Steve without waiting on H. I will inform him of the date and time and welcome him to join us. Thanks for the direction all!!!!
I will do as suggested and make an appointment with Steve without waiting on H. I will inform him of the date and time and welcome him to join us.
Great
Let us know, too, when your appointment is.
In the meantime, what are you going to do if he has another angry outburst?
You are right he is not on board with the program, however he was on board for signing up and being on two calls so far. For that I am thankful.
You need to up the ante, though. He can make phone calls and disagree forever.
In the meantime, what are you going to do if he has another angry outburst?
I really do not try to negotiate with him when he is angry, it does nothing but prolong his AO. How do I not put up with his attempts to control? He says �he is THIS CLOSE� (I�m assuming he means to leaving) I don�t try to stop him but I don�t push him out the door either. He has often said if things don�t change our marriage will not work. I have come to try to view it as a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum and it provides me with logic as to why his youngest had tantrums when she was 6 and why his older daughter has them at 21. I need to read up on FILSIL. I currently have the Lovebusters book and am trying to read through it. (I wish I was a faster reader!) I am going to wait on Steve to help me introduce the POJA. I think he can get Hs buy in better than I can. I can confront him during an AO, but what does that look like? It almost feels like anything I say will escalate the yelling and his attempts at SD and DJ. Calling 911 seems out of context and a bit extreme. He is not physically dangerous and does not throw or break things. He is scary being his size and I would imagine calling 911 would just escalate the problem. If the anger continues, how do we separate? We have three children in the house with us. I have friends� homes that I can stay in but he doesn�t really have that option. I have stayed with friends after his AO but it really puts me in a bind because I still have my own two children to care for. We can�t really afford two places to live. My friends and family are fully aware of his abuse. My parents are not happy with how he treats my kids and myself but they live 30 minutes away where it is not practical to stay with them.
You need to up the ante, though. He can make phone calls and disagree forever.
Yes, that is true. I think I need to take baby steps though, for my own anxiety and sanity. Calling to make an appointment with Steve is my first step that is uncomfortable for me. Sometimes I have major anxiety issues. I will evaluate after the call to determine the next baby step. I will lean on the forum for direction as everyone has been very helpful.
Good news� I sent a email to H telling him I was scheduling an appointment and asked if he would be interested in joining. He said yes and asked for times so he could make sure his schedule is free. I have called and gotten times and provided them to him. I should hear from him shortly and be able to set it up.
The only part about this is that I feel like I have to be the driver. Why can�t he drive any of this?
Phone coaching set up for tomorrow morning 6AM Central. I have huge anxiety
I am so glad about the responses I have had on here. I am not good at defending myself nor explainnig myself well. I have felt like I can't do anything right by him (he is sick of hearing me say that).
In the meantime, what are you going to do if he has another angry outburst?
I really do not try to negotiate with him when he is angry, it does nothing but prolong his AO. How do I not put up with his attempts to control?
Exit all conversations the minute he has an angry outburst. Cease talking, and leave the room/house. If he tries to prevent you, call the police.
Quit dwelling on the following, as it will not lead to a solution:
He says �he is THIS CLOSE� (I�m assuming he means to leaving) I don�t try to stop him but I don�t push him out the door either. He has often said if things don�t change our marriage will not work. I have come to try to view it as a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum and it provides me with logic as to why his youngest had tantrums when she was 6 and why his older daughter has them at 21.
I am going to wait on Steve to help me introduce the POJA.
Good heavens; you two are nowhere near being able to POJA, because he is still having angry outbursts and hasn't even taken the first step to eliminate them. As long as the abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger) continue, you'll never be able to reach enthusiastic agreement.
I can confront him during an AO, but what does that look like?
Goodness, no! Don't confront him! Simply stop participating and being present any time he has an angry outburst. He can't have your attention and presence if he's going to have an outburst; does that make sense?
Calling 911 seems out of context and a bit extreme. He is not physically dangerous and does not throw or break things. He is scary being his size and I would imagine calling 911 would just escalate the problem.
The thing about an angry outburst is that when a person has an angry outburst, they are insane. Nothing they do makes sense, and what they do cannot be predicted. Typically, it will get worse over time.
There are women who are crippled for life because their husbands broke their back in an angry outburst, when their husband had never before done anything physical.
If the anger continues, how do we separate?
You are asking the wrong question. Try this:
"If the anger continues, how do
I separate?"
You need to prepare for a separation now because there is no sign that he is going to do anything about his anger and he will not even take the first step.
Separation is not a step you take together. You don't talk it over ahead of time and make plans together. He doesn't get a say any more; he loses that by his refusal to deal with his anger problem. Joint decisions are for people who don't abuse each other and who want to build a life together. Separation is a unilateral decision that you take to protect yourself from a person who won't do that.
We have three children in the house with us. I have friends� homes that I can stay in but he doesn�t really have that option. I have stayed with friends after his AO but it really puts me in a bind because I still have my own two children to care for.
Change the locks. Inform him that he cannot come home until he eliminates his angry outbursts, and inform him that if he ever has another angry outburst, he will have to leave again.
He is responsible for continuing to support his wife and family. He will have to find another place to live. You have done nothing wrong, so why should you leave?
The only part about this is that I feel like I have to be the driver. Why can�t he drive any of this?
You can't be the driver, and no matter how hard you try to drive, you can't make him drive. You don't have the stamina to keep trying to pull and pull for years and years.
wow...scary stuff. Changing the locks will probably require me to call 911.
wow...scary stuff. Changing the locks will probably require me to call 911.
Why?
wow...scary stuff. Changing the locks will probably require me to call 911.
It sounds like you know he is actually on the verge of violence. It sounds like you know this is on the verge of becoming physical. It sounds like you know how dangerous this already is.
If he does not respect you changing the locks, you are going to need to get a restraining order. I would prepare for that now just in case it is needed.
And of course, if he shows up at the door threatening, you do need to call 911.
Phone coaching set up for tomorrow morning 6AM Central. I have huge anxiety
I am so glad about the responses I have had on here. I am not good at defending myself nor explainnig myself well. I have felt like I can't do anything right by him (he is sick of hearing me say that).
You won't need to defend yourself to Steve. Just start talking with him about what's going on, and it'll go fine. I don't know what he'll do, but I guess he would speak to you separately first to get a handle on the situation. Even if at the last minute you find you're the only one willing to talk to Steve, go on ahead and do it.
And let us now how the call went after ...
We can�t really afford two places to live.
Don't worry about where he'll live. He's a big boy. He can figure out where to go and stay. He can figure out how to pay for it.
Because I know that will make him angry and I try to avoid what makes him angry, thus why I feel controlled. I guess he is getting compliance when he scares me like that. I always have the "walk on egg shells" feeling.
It sounds like you know he is actually on the verge of violence. It sounds like you know this is on the verge of becoming physical. It sounds like you know how dangerous this already is.
It's hard to think he would ever do anything that would be violent. He would be completely offended if I thought that he would. I know i feel scared to make him angry and I don't care to be around him for fear that I will do something (not on purpose) to make him angry.
If he does not respect you changing the locks, you are going to need to get a restraining order. I would prepare for that now just in case it is needed.
And of course, if he shows up at the door threatening, you do need to call 911.
Yea, I really feel he won't respect me changing the locks and it scares me to take that action. One because I fear his anger and two because he will leave me as that is his threat.
You won't need to defend yourself to Steve. Just start talking with him about what's going on, and it'll go fine. I don't know what he'll do, but I guess he would speak to you separately first to get a handle on the situation. Even if at the last minute you find you're the only one willing to talk to Steve, go on ahead and do it.
Thanks the encouragement is very helpful.
Our call with Steve this morning resulted in H stating that he does things for me but gets nothing in return. He said that we are really just co-existing. This breaks my heart because I know I have done things to help fill up his love bank. I have tried to eliminate the lovebusters and do the things that fill his lovebank. I know I fail
but I keep trying regardless of what I get in return. I feel so discouraged but I will continue to do the things I think he needs to change that feeling in him.
I had sent Steve the questionnaires but sent it to the wrong address so he didn't see my lovebusters on Hs AO. I did interrupt about halfway through when Steve was going to talk about our assignment and told Steve I couldn't handle the AO any more. Steve changed gears and tried to logic with H. On paper it sounded good. I feel H is angry and I don't want to be around him when he is like that.
I resent the emails to Steve and hope that he has a chance to read them over. We are trying to get another coaching session lined up for Tuesday at 6.
Our assignment is to interview each other on our EN. I am fine with interviewing H and actually looking forward to understanding him more. I however am terrified to share my EN. My #1 EN is Protection - honor my feelings, make them important with your words and actions. Protect me from hurt and insist on my importance. In some cases, fight for me, especially when i am hurt or scared.
This will blow him up as right now there is a situation with his daughter (21) and he protects her. He knows that is a problem and he just wants me to accept the way it is. It just makes it hurt more and builds major resentment to life in general.
Tuesday at 6 session set up! Scared to death to do the assignment though.
I just want to run away.
It sounds to me as if you still have not communicated to Steve how violent and frightening these outbursts are. You indicated today for the first time that there is a problem, but you did not tell him the scale. It is a shame that you managed to talk to him today and STILL have not got this across.
From my reading of Dr Harley (Steve's father and the founder of Marriage Builders), and especially of his posts on the private forum here, he would consider the angry outbursts to be of urgent importance and would urge you to separate from your husband until he has completed an anger management course and eliminated the outbursts. He would not be getting you to work on ENs or anything else while this acute threat of violence was in place.
It's hard to think he would ever do anything that would be violent. He would be completely offended if I thought that he would.
It sounds like you think he could be violent (because you know you might have to call 911). It sounds like you want to try to trick yourself into thinking he couldn't do that because you are afraid that just thinking it will make him angry!
Our assignment is to interview each other on our EN. I am fine with interviewing H and actually looking forward to understanding him more.
I would be telling your husband that you will be glad to meet his emotional needs when he has eliminated his demands, disrespect, and anger. I think this is the kind of thing Dr. Harley would encourage you to say.
I agree with SugerCane.
Dr. Harley takes a no-nonsense approach to AOs. There is absolutely no reason for you to be messing around with questionnaires when your husband will not take the first step to protect you: admit he has an anger problem.
You may not feel that he will be violent. But many women have been killed or maimed by their husbands having an angry outburst, who had never shown any kind of violence before in their lives!
Anger is temporary insanity. You cannot trust what your husband will do or not do while he is having an outburst. Listen to your gut -- it is telling you that you are not safe and that you need to get away from this man! Your instincts are trying to protect you here, but your emotions are getting in the way.
My husband was always the gentle type -- physically affectionate, and enjoyable to talk with. But when he became angry, he did unthinkable, violent things; some of the things that he cannot even remember doing because the insanity was in control, not him. I never dreamed it would happen, because he "just wasn't that type" or "he only yells sometimes, but he'll never hurt me."
So what if he threatens to leave you? It'll be a moot point, since you will have already kicked him out. He NEEDS to leave, until he is willing and able to protect you from himself.
A good husband who discovers that his wife has changed the locks will come to her on his knees, hat in hand, asking "What do I need to do to win you back?" If he disappears from your life without another word, you are better off without him. Trust me.
For some reason I feel compelled to say to you that you won't be able to "nice" your husband out of AO's. I see where you said you were meeting his needs and stopping your Lovebusters as well as you can in the hopes that his feelings towards you will change. Do you really mean that you're hoping his treatment of you will change based upon how "good" you are?
You could be absolutely perfect, but that won't get him to stop his AOs or disrespect. It's a choice and commitment to new behavior that he will have to make, independent of how well you treat him. However, I think it's always a good idea to stop one's own Lovebusters, no matter how the relationship is. So, if you stop your Lovebusters, that's good for you, too, and making that change won't make you turn more into a doormat or emotional punching bag.
I hope that what I'm thinking made it out clearly, here.
Welcome to mb. Sorry you are here. I see that you guys have been phone coaching with the harleys. That's fantastis. Stick with it. In my situation I finally realized I had an anxiety issue that was fueling my anger. And much like you my wife thought I would never be violent during a heated argument of some kind. But as time went on each time we had a confrontation we provoked and escelated to the point where I accidently hurt my wife during an AO. It was not intentional but none the less it happened. She called the police on me and we separated for a week. During that week I had lots of time to think and realized that my actions were totally uncalled for.
After that week I came to my wife with a plan to get rid of my anxiety and anger. She accepted me back in and we are in a definate recovery as we work together to eliminate all sources of unnecessary anxiety (including disassociating with certain family members who greatly contributed to our anxiety)
What strikes me odd about your situation is your hubby claims he gives and gets nothing in return. Do you feel he gives to you in ways you appreciate? You claim you meet his needs and he claims you don't. Its clear that both your efforts are missing the mark.
Have you considered he may have your efforts shut out from filling his love bank due to an affair of some kind? Has he ever said "I love you but not in love with you?" If so that's a huge red flag that he has some kind of compairison.
Do not confront him with the question about if he having or havr had an affair of some kind (emotional or physical) just snoop!
Mng
For some reason I feel compelled to say to you that you won't be able to "nice" your husband out of AO's.
And I feel compelled to agree, loudly!
You aren't the cause of your husband's angry outbursts, so nothing you do can stop them. All you can do is decide that you'll never endure another one.
It sounds to me as if you still have not communicated to Steve how violent and frightening these outbursts are. You indicated today for the first time that there is a problem, but you did not tell him the scale. It is a shame that you managed to talk to him today and STILL have not got this across.
From my reading of Dr Harley (Steve's father and the founder of Marriage Builders), and especially of his posts on the private forum here, he would consider the angry outbursts to be of urgent importance and would urge you to separate from your husband until he has completed an anger management course and eliminated the outbursts. He would not be getting you to work on ENs or anything else while this acute threat of violence was in place.
I have sent Steve a couple emails about the severity but he hasn�t responded.
It sounds like you think he could be violent (because you know you might have to call 911). It sounds like you want to try to trick yourself into thinking he couldn't do that because you are afraid that just thinking it will make him angry!
I have huge anxiety issues. I may be trying to trick myself. It is just all so stressful at this point. I am open to all everyone is saying. I want to touch base with Steve and see if he suggests the same after he gets how scared I am of his AO and simply communicating with him in any way.
I would be telling your husband that you will be glad to meet his emotional needs when he has eliminated his demands, disrespect, and anger. I think this is the kind of thing Dr. Harley would encourage you to say.
I guess I don�t feel that is fair. It is my responsibility to ensure I provide the environment where he feels loved.
Good audio links! Thanks for sending them my way. I will continue to listen to them over and over. The thing I hear in them is that he is in love with her and she is not with him. Harley says that this is a good time to separate because she is still needed by him. I feel expendable and that he could care less if I was gone from him life. I feel he sees I�m a hindrance to his relationship with his 21 y/o daughter who hates me.
I agree with SugerCane.
Dr. Harley takes a no-nonsense approach to AOs. There is absolutely no reason for you to be messing around with questionnaires when your husband will not take the first step to protect you: admit he has an anger problem.
You may not feel that he will be violent. But many women have been killed or maimed by their husbands having an angry outburst, who had never shown any kind of violence before in their lives!
Anger is temporary insanity. You cannot trust what your husband will do or not do while he is having an outburst. Listen to your gut -- it is telling you that you are not safe and that you need to get away from this man! Your instincts are trying to protect you here, but your emotions are getting in the way.
My husband was always the gentle type -- physically affectionate, and enjoyable to talk with. But when he became angry, he did unthinkable, violent things; some of the things that he cannot even remember doing because the insanity was in control, not him. I never dreamed it would happen, because he "just wasn't that type" or "he only yells sometimes, but he'll never hurt me."
So what if he threatens to leave you? It'll be a moot point, since you will have already kicked him out. He NEEDS to leave, until he is willing and able to protect you from himself.
A good husband who discovers that his wife has changed the locks will come to her on his knees, hat in hand, asking "What do I need to do to win you back?" If he disappears from your life without another word, you are better off without him. Trust me.
Thanks Prisca! I needed the virtual hug and I appreciate your words. I am very thankful you are responding. I don�t feel alone and feel supported.
For some reason I feel compelled to say to you that you won't be able to "nice" your husband out of AO's. I see where you said you were meeting his needs and stopping your Lovebusters as well as you can in the hopes that his feelings towards you will change. Do you really mean that you're hoping his treatment of you will change based upon how "good" you are?
You could be absolutely perfect, but that won't get him to stop his AOs or disrespect. It's a choice and commitment to new behavior that he will have to make, independent of how well you treat him. However, I think it's always a good idea to stop one's own Lovebusters, no matter how the relationship is. So, if you stop your Lovebusters, that's good for you, too, and making that change won't make you turn more into a doormat or emotional punching bag.
I hope that what I'm thinking made it out clearly, here.
Thanks for chiming in here. Maybe I am trying to nice him out of AOs?!? I would have to say that I *think* I am meeting his needs. He has only shared things verbally in the past so I am trying to eliminate the negatives and do the positives. According to him yesterday morning, he isn�t getting his needs met. So I really need to understand his EN and ensure I know his LBs. I must say, I am doing the things I feel he needs now due to SDs from the past so there is a lot of resentment behind me doing them but none-the-less, it is not about me. H said yesterday during the coaching session that reason he did the last AO is because he has told me to not talk about him in front of his family and I continue to do it and that is not stopping my behavior so it is escalated. The situation he is talking about is that his family and my family were at dinner and I was telling my mom about an incident where he blew up at me. His sister was cupping her ear to listen in and was pissed. Later, H asked her what was going on and she told him that I was talking bad about him to my family. He was livid! I asked him what was wrong and it is the biggest blow up I have ever seen from him. We were an hour away from home and I left walking home. I had a friend come and get me. I stayed several nights at a friends house. I came back when he was finally cooled down. I admit, I shouldn�t have been talking poorly in front of his family but the AO was completely wrong from the earlier issue and this issue. Then the incident happened with me calling him a jerk and his daughter 11 hearing it. That is when he yelled at me again. I have had threads on here twice in the past and asked the moderators to delete them as I am scared that he will see them and get mad that I�m expressing all this to the public. In the last AO, he told me that I call him names to my friends but I am NOT to say things in front of his children.
Welcome to mb. Sorry you are here. I see that you guys have been phone coaching with the harleys. That's fantastis. Stick with it. In my situation I finally realized I had an anxiety issue that was fueling my anger. And much like you my wife thought I would never be violent during a heated argument of some kind. But as time went on each time we had a confrontation we provoked and escelated to the point where I accidently hurt my wife during an AO. It was not intentional but none the less it happened. She called the police on me and we separated for a week. During that week I had lots of time to think and realized that my actions were totally uncalled for.
After that week I came to my wife with a plan to get rid of my anxiety and anger. She accepted me back in and we are in a definate recovery as we work together to eliminate all sources of unnecessary anxiety (including disassociating with certain family members who greatly contributed to our anxiety)
What strikes me odd about your situation is your hubby claims he gives and gets nothing in return. Do you feel he gives to you in ways you appreciate? You claim you meet his needs and he claims you don't. Its clear that both your efforts are missing the mark.
Have you considered he may have your efforts shut out from filling his love bank due to an affair of some kind? Has he ever said "I love you but not in love with you?" If so that's a huge red flag that he has some kind of compairison.
Do not confront him with the question about if he having or havr had an affair of some kind (emotional or physical) just snoop!Mng
Thanks for being open about your AOs and how she was hurt. I do see everyones point about there is always a first time. If it does ever escalate to that before I make a move I will definitely call 911. He has blocked my car so I could not leave the house once and blocked me from going down the stairs where I threatened to call 911 and he moved. I�m not sure if he has said those exact words but I do feel that he feels that way. I highly doubt he is having an affair. He is always at home. My only concern is his behavior with his daughter 21. I will say I think he is having an emotional affair with her. Although she has had some ridiculous AOs to him in the past he acts like all is well with her just so he can see the grandkids. She has treated me like dirt and makes up reasons why she doesn�t like me. H has addressed those issues she brings up but she sticks with them as reasons to hate me and keep me away from the grandkids which H supports. It really hurts me deeply. My #1 EN is protection.
And I feel compelled to agree, loudly!
You aren't the cause of your husband's angry outbursts, so nothing you do can stop them. All you can do is decide that you'll never endure another one.
I will make sure when there is another, I will ask him to leave until he addresses his anger unless Steve directs me otherwise. I�m glad we have another appointment Tuesday at 6am! I sure wish Steve would respond to my emails. 
I sure wish Steve would respond to my emails.
Why don't you email Steve's father, Dr. Harley? Steve's great, but he doesn't always respond to emails (at least in my experience). And I don't think you need to wait till Tuesday to talk to someone about this.
You can email and talk to Dr. Harley for free: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com
I would be telling your husband that you will be glad to meet his emotional needs when he has eliminated his demands, disrespect, and anger. I think this is the kind of thing Dr. Harley would encourage you to say.
I guess I don�t feel that is fair. It is my responsibility to ensure I provide the environment where he feels loved.
It is your responsibility to do the impossible? Because nobody can continue to provide care under abuse indefinitely. Eventually your taker will react in your defense, and you will not be providing care.
Besides, a demanding person is a black hole who can never be satisfied. Your caring deeds do not make love bank deposits when your spouse feels entitled to them.
I guess I don't see why it is fair for a person to expect their spouse to provide care even when they are not going to do so and are not going to eliminate love busters. In my understanding, marriage is a bilateral agreement, an exchange that benefits both husband and wife. It's not an entitlement program where one person sits back and lets the other burn themselves out for nothing.
If you are under the impression that making your husband feel loved will cause him to eventually stop being demanding, disrespectful, and angry and start making you feel loved, I have to point out to you that you've BEEN doing that and it hasn't worked so far. Something has got to get him off the fence.
I feel expendable and that he could care less if I was gone from him life. I feel he sees I�m a hindrance to his relationship with his 21 y/o daughter who hates me.
Why would you stay with someone who doesn't care?
I must say, I am doing the things I feel he needs now due to SDs from the past so there is a lot of resentment behind me doing them but none-the-less, it is not about me.
Do not do anything you are not enthusiastic about.
Giving into Selfish Demands will not do you or your husband or your marriage any favors. It will only make things worse, as your resentment grows.
H said yesterday during the coaching session that reason he did the last AO is because he has told me to not talk about him in front of his family and I continue to do it and that is not stopping my behavior so it is escalated.
In other words, if you had just done what he wanted, he wouldn't have abused you. He is abusing you, then blaming you for the abuse.
As long as he continues to blame you for his own behavior, he is not going to stop abusing you.
If it does ever escalate to that before I make a move I will definitely call 911.
Good. I'm concerned about you.
He is not going to start protecting you until you stand up for yourself and tell him that you will no longer be treated this way.
I will make sure when there is another, I will ask him to leave until he addresses his anger
I think you need to come up with a plan that you can implement immediately. Do not
ask him to leave.
1. Once he's out of the house, keep him out. Change the locks and file a restraining order if necessary.
2. Tell your friends and family about his abuse
3. If he wants to come home, insist that he contact Dr. Harley and/or Steve for guidance first
4. Do not let him come home until he has taken anger management and has learned to control himself
This is what Dr. Harley says to say to a man who keeps having AOs (I understand that you have not had an affair. This is a letter that Dr. Harley wrote to a woman who had one, and her husband would not stop the AOs. It still applies to you, just fill in whatever issue your husband has AOs about):
I would look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you care at all about how I feel? If you do, you sure have a funny way of showing it! I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you. But it sure will be unpleasant for both of us if you keep treating me this way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"
If he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. From this moment on you will never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. I will agree to do the same with you. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, even by the man I love."
Thanks for everyones input and concern. Virtual Hug...I don't know how to code it!
Steve called me this morning. He told me the best way to reach him is to call him and leave a message.
I will make sure I do that in the future.
He is now aware of the severity of the situation. His instructions were to have a plan.
I do not have a sense that he will be physically abusive. He has demonstrated submission when I threatened to call 911 when he was blocking the stairs for me to exit. He moved out of the way and allowed me to leave.
Steve and I discussed that I am going to request insight from H on Steve saying 'care is determined by the person on the receiving end' just to see what he says and create some conversation.
He also suggested I go to H when he is calm (like now-he was fine last night like nothing was said about his anger in our coaching call) and tell him I have a concern and I have hope in our marriage. Explain to him that when he loses his temper I feel unsafe. I think the solution involves him not yelling at me. And ask him what he thinks about that.
Either way what his thoughts are on it, my stance must be firm. 'Hold your line' is what Steve said. Steve said it would help if I could try to look at his AOs as a 'toothless tiger'. My thoughts go to a 6 year old throwing a tantrum. Steve said, he will make mistakes and if I can look at them in that light it will help me move forward. I am not to mistake that for acceptance of his AOs
If there is AOs
Don't address Hs concerns when he has an AO
Get his attention as soon as possible
Tell him I love him and I want to make this marriage work.
State what he is doing is not ok and we can work on issues when you are he is not yelling at me. Tell him that we can write this down and discuss it with Steve. Talk to Steve about it.
I feel stronger with this plan in place. In the past I have just sat there and let him have his rant, then I usually go stay with a friend. That left for assumptions that he could feel his anger put me in my place when it really only drove me away. By me making statements it is clear.
Steve also helped me understand that the 'protection' EN I thought would blow him up is really not an EN. It is more of a lovebuster. He said what I am looking for is extrodinary care. Which gives me a lot less anxiety about the interview on my ENs.
If I ever have any sense that he may hurt me, protection must be addressed. I may have a fun time staying at a hotel with my kids so we can swim in their pool!
Yesterday evening we sat down to discuss our assignment. We were to interview each other on our ENs. H suggested I go first but I told him I would like him to go first. I pushed forward to have him share his ENs as I am genuinely interested in what I can do to make him feel loved. I was reluctant to share my own. During the interview of his first EN, I was looking down at the table. He asked me what was I doing and I told him I was listening. I had already taken a full page of notes. He asked me to look at him in the eye when he is talking to me. From that moment on, I knew I would not share. Although he formed it in a question, I feel controlled. I was asking lots of fact finding questions and listening to each detail even before he said that. I have four pages of notes to show for it! From that point on, I didn�t want to share. In the past, I have felt very judged for my feelings. I feel very controlled too on what my feelings should be.
After the discussion, I told him I needed some time to myself. He said that was fine and he was going to run an errand and would it be okay if he stopped by to see SD21. I said fine in an unenthusiastic way. He says I rolled my eyes. Maybe I did. There is so much hurt behind everything relating to SD21. I really didn�t want to deal with having to pretend like I am happy about her living closer to us now. He was livid!!
When he came back from the errand he was angry and started to confront me. He told me that I shouldn't be making him feel guilty when he wants to go see his daughter. And that our previous counselor told me I didn't need to get in the way of their relationship. She told us that I needed to get over her. I told him I was not going to deal with an AO. He told me he was holding his temper. While he wasn�t yelling at me, I felt he was a huge threat to me as generally an AO follows. I was right on this one. When he didn�t get what he wanted out of me, he blew. I can't seem to get him to understand what I need from him. I told him I was leaving. He told me to tell my kids to go to bed. I told him if he wanted me to tell them that then maybe he needed to be the one to leave. He said if I leave I�m not coming back. Of course, I�m kinda in panic mode. I don�t want him to leave for good. I left with the kids. Now the kids are distraught over what is going on.
I took a breather and came back home. I had the kids get in bed (My 13 year old had trouble falling asleep and as a resort only have 6 hours sleep.) and I went in our room and asked him to sit down. (He was packing up his things) I looked at him straight in the eye and said I love you, I don�t want you to leave but I am not going to stop you. I told him I will not tolerate his AOs. He did agree that his AOs were inappropriate. So that is one step in the right direction.
I told him about the forum and encouraged him to post. I requested he not look at my thread and he is concerned at what I am saying about him. I have been real on here and I don�t feel I can share with him and if he reads this I feel he will be livid for the feelings I have. He agreed not to look at my thread.
I want to share with you what resulted in the EN interview as I need some guidance to help me with providing them. My comments to you are in red. Please help me on how I can provide his needs with the comments I have provided.
#1 Admiration � Rated 6 (He has a great need for admiration)
� He is very unhappy when I don�t show it
� He is very happy when I show admiration
� His current feeling is -2 (very dissatisfied)
� He couldn�t answer how often � to him it is a lifestyle, not a number
� He feels admiration when I ask him his opinion and I take it into consideration. I asked him if that applies even when I do not go with his opinion. He said when he thinks of consideration he thinks of more of a compromise instead of me just doing it my way. I can understand this one. The hard part is coming to a compromise when we are in a disagreement. When he is adamant on something how can we compromise?
� When there is a difference of opinion or there is an agreement to disagree, there should be no repercussions. I still have feelings and I should be allowed to have my feelings. He can be strong on his stance regardless of my feelings on the issue. It hurts. I feel he thinks he is doing good by pushing my feelings to the side so he can have a relationship with SD21 the way he and she want. It hurts greatly. When he is with her, I feel he acts like I don�t exist because she hates me so much, yet he doesn�t think I have done anything to her that she should hate me so much.
� If he could hear the words �What did Brian tell you to do?!?... then do it� or �Do you know what the rule is?!? Then why are you not doing it?� it would make him feel admiration. He wants it said in front of him. I am fully on board with getting the kids to do what they are told. I feel controlled when he tells me what I should say to them. I still get them to do what they are told. I need to hold them more accountable. I know this is a growth opportunity for me.
� When I said I would sell stuff and get rid of it after two weeks and I followed through it made him happy. When I stopped it angered him because the plan stopped. I feel like he was demanding I get rid of things on his terms. I agreed to this plan only because there were things I was ok with donating and it bought me time. I find now that I am hiding things so he won�t see them. If I remember them, I try to sell them on my work classifieds, ebay or facebook. I am not a hoarder. My house is lived in. We do have lots of things. We have gotten rid of a lot of things. He has piles too. He is fine with throwing everything in the trash.
� When I make a **huge deal** when he brings home flowers it makes him feel admiration. A simple thanks is not enough. When he bought me dance lessons, he felt I appreciated it with my response. I feel like he wants to control how I feel. I say thanks but it is not enough. I am not happy with most things around him at this moment. I don�t like even being around him because it is so stressful for me. How can I make a huge deal when I feel this way?
� When he cleans the carpet of pet mess, I said hey thanks. �Hey thanks� feels dismissive to him. More words are needed. �I noticed you cleaned the carpet. Thanks I appreciate that. It means a lot to me� It is more of a feeling than words. It is the emotion behind the gratitude. Stating thanks is even a step for me. His dog puked on the carpet, why do you need a goodyear blimp when it was your dogs mess? He would let it sit for a few days before spraying it with pet cleaner and rubbing it into the carpet so you couldn�t tell it happened. So when he uses the carpet cleaner he expects flashing light happiness? I was happy he used the carpet cleaner to actually clean the puke up. I feel like I had gratitude. Again, I feel like he wants to control my feelings. How do I provide the level of gratitude he needs with my emotions as they are?
� He said that when the kids disrespect me it makes him angry. I�m sure it does. If I realize it, I call it. His view of disrespect is different than mine. He is very military minded, strict and harsh. My first thought on this one is how dare he define what respect looks like to me. I don�t feel disrespected by my children. They do end up following through with what I tell them.
� When I stand up for myself (only to the kids) he feels respected Of course there are times I stand up for myself. I am the parent and I don�t have a problem yelling at them for not doing as they are told.
� I need to be stern with the kids on tasks they are asked to complete (ie. Get in the shower, brush your teeth, clean up your room) I feel I am stern with them. I don�t feel you have to yell at them to get their attention (sometimes you do) When they don�t listen I do escalate my persona.
I can see he wants to be admired. I do not admire his AOs, SDs and DJs!!! How can I provide this need when there are so many SDs and DJs?
#2 Honesty and Openness � Rated 5 (6 is great need)
� He is very unhappy when I am not open and honest
� He is somewhat happy when I am open and honest
� His current feeling is -1 (dissatisfied)
� The areas he would like to see improvement from me:
o Sharing positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life I don�t feel I can share. I have feelings and those are judged. I am hurt by SD21 and by his actions around SD21 but he tells me I need to get over it.
o Sharing info regarding my personal history- I need to explain a reason rather than just say I don�t want to talk about it. I can do that
o Sharing info about daily activities Easy to do the surface talk
o Sharing info about future schedule and plans More easy surface talk
� Talk to him. He loves it when I talk to him. Just ask questions. Open up dialog. It seems ok if I am talking about him. Asking him about questions about his past. What does he remember as a child, what was your favorite vacation as a kid� etc. So easy to do, too.
� Tell him about my day even if he doesn�t understand the things I bring up like for work. I can do that as long as he seems interested in hearing it.
� Tell him what I am thinking and/or feeling even if I don�t think he will like it. Red Flag! Don�t think so! It seems to always end in AOs, SDs and DJs. Although he has recognized AOs are not ok, the others keep me from wanting to share.
� He wants to understand how he can have his negative feelings without me feeling intimidated, specifically when he is angry I told him to contact Steve
� He appreciates when I check to see if there is anything going on before making concrete plans or letting him know of appointments so he knows what is going on. Easy enough to do
� He doesn�t like it when I say I�m fine and he senses something is wrong. If something is wrong I need to state that something is wrong and I don�t want to talk about it. He seems to take my feelings as a personal attack on him. I try to use the �I feel x, when x, I need x� I�m just tired of having to try to defend my own feelings.
#3 Domestic Support � Rated 5 (6 is great need)
� He is very unhappy when I provide domestic support
� He is very happy when I provide domestic support
� His current feeling is -1 (dissatisfied)
� He wants me to make a concentrated effort to get rid of things (clutter) I am glad to do that. I am working on it. It is slow but we have a lot of stuff! I do need to make it more of a concentrated effort. Thankfully I have a close friend who is on board with me and has been helping me.
� He feels supported when I have a plan and work hard to get rid of stuff in the garage and house and I follow through with the plan.
� He needs me to clean up after I do something (ie. Cooking, crafting, changing bike oil) Start a project and finish it Ok� very challenging to me, but definitely a goal I have for him to be happy.
� He needs me to insist the girls pick up after themselves [color:red]Agreed. Kids make messes. I don�t mind telling them to clean up after themselves. I don�t want to be demeaning to them in the process.
How do I meet his top three needs with all the resentment I have? He says he feels like this program along with many others expect him to make changes in order for me to make changes. I am not opposed to providing him with his needs. I want to make him happy. I don�t want to hurt him. I want my efforts to be real. I can fake them but obviously he can tell at times when I�m not real and he wants me to be open and honest. HELP!!!
I want to share with you what resulted in the EN interview as I need some guidance to help me with providing them. My comments to you are in red. Please help me on how I can provide his needs with the comments I have provided.
I'm not going to read that part: you can't meet his needs while he is not fixing his problem with anger. You will find he is a black hole of unlimited needs.
I'm not going to read that part: you can't meet his needs while he is not fixing his problem with anger. You will find he is a black hole of unlimited needs.
Thanks markos. I know he sent an email to Steve. I told him he will get a faster response if he leaves a message. Steve is at least now aware of his anger from my point of view. H is angry now so if Steve calls him soon he will hear it too. I can't help but be scared that he will leave me. I know he is hurt, very hurt and he will justify that I am the problem as he does with his X. I know my logic should tell me, why would I want a H like that? There are wonderful qualities about him. He is a Christian, he is strong, he is a leader, he is smart, he has a great job, he loves his children and wants the best for them, he loves my children, he is sensitive and so on. With that said....should I leave to create a separation?
Wonderful! I am reading through them now
I'm not going to read that part: you can't meet his needs while he is not fixing his problem with anger. You will find he is a black hole of unlimited needs.
Thanks markos. I know he sent an email to Steve. I told him he will get a faster response if he leaves a message. Steve is at least now aware of his anger from my point of view. H is angry now so if Steve calls him soon he will hear it too. I can't help but be scared that he will leave me. I know he is hurt, very hurt and he will justify that I am the problem as he does with his X. I know my logic should tell me, why would I want a H like that? There are wonderful qualities about him. He is a Christian, he is strong, he is a leader, he is smart, he has a great job, he loves his children and wants the best for them, he loves my children, he is sensitive and so on. With that said....should I leave to create a separation?
We've discussed this before in your thread, and I really think you should re-read it so you don't miss any of the very important information that has been given to you.
As long as your husband is not doing anything to stop his angry outbursts, you should be preparing for a separation, because his anger will eventually destroy your marriage, no matter how much you want to hold it together. You are not safe, and you know this, and you have told us this. You need to be ready so that you can safely control the situation, rather than be forced into something incredibly dangerous with no preparation at all. Don't shove it to the back of your mind, prepare!!
And no, you should not leave; he should leave. He is the one who will not control his anger, so he should be the one to leave.
We've discussed this before in your thread, and I really think you should re-read it so you don't miss any of the very important information that has been given to you.
As long as your husband is not doing anything to stop his angry outbursts, you should be preparing for a separation, because his anger will eventually destroy your marriage, no matter how much you want to hold it together. You are not safe, and you know this, and you have told us this. You need to be ready so that you can safely control the situation, rather than be forced into something incredibly dangerous with no preparation at all. Don't shove it to the back of your mind, prepare!!
And no, you should not leave; he should leave. He is the one who will not control his anger, so he should be the one to leave.
What does it look like when you say he needs to be doing something to stop his AOs? He is aware of them now, how they effect me and agrees they are unacceptable.
After the discussion, I told him I needed some time to myself. He said that was fine and he was going to run an errand and would it be okay if he stopped by to see SD21. I said fine in an unenthusiastic way.
You should've said "no."
He says I rolled my eyes. Maybe I did. There is so much hurt behind everything relating to SD21. I really didn�t want to deal with having to pretend like I am happy about her living closer to us now. He was livid!!
Don't pretend that you are happy about it, but do be respectful. You should be allowed to say "I am not enthusiastic about SD21 being a part of our lives at this time."
When he came back from the errand he was angry and started to confront me. He told me that I shouldn't be making him feel guilty when he wants to go see his daughter. And that our previous counselor told me I didn't need to get in the way of their relationship. She told us that I needed to get over her.
Your previous counselor was a moron. YOU come first. Always.
I told him I was not going to deal with an AO. He told me he was holding his temper. /quote]
That's not his call.
[quote] While he wasn�t yelling at me, I felt he was a huge threat to me as generally an AO follows. I was right on this one. When he didn�t get what he wanted out of me, he blew. I can't seem to get him to understand what I need from him. I told him I was leaving. He told me to tell my kids to go to bed. I told him if he wanted me to tell them that then maybe he needed to be the one to leave. He said if I leave I�m not coming back. Of course, I�m kinda in panic mode. I don�t want him to leave for good. I left with the kids. Now the kids are distraught over what is going on.
Honey, you shouldn't have threatened to leave him. You should've just done it. DON'T ENGAGE with him when he is having an AO. CALMLY walk away and get out of the situation as soon as you can.
He threatens to leave you because he can control you. My husband controlled me the same way. It's part of the AO. He's pretty sure you're not going to do anything to stand up to him, and if he makes this threat, you'll just back down and start giving in again.
I told him I will not tolerate his AOs.
What are you going to do to show him that you are not going to tolerate them? It is easy to say you won't tolerate them -- I said so for years, all the while enduring one AO after the next. What are you going to DO?
He did agree that his AOs were inappropriate.
So what is he going to do about it?
This needs to be on the front burner at all times.
Please help me on how I can provide his needs with the comments I have provided.
I'm with markos on this one. You don't need to be worrying about EN until he has a plan to protect you from his AOs. THIS is what you need to be working on. Nothing else will matter otherwise.
He CANNOT fill your lovebank right now because of his AOs - he is punching holes in your lovebank with every AO, and it's like trying to fill a holey bucket.
If you try to fill his right now while receiving nothing in return, you are setting yourself up for trauma. You will not be able to make it.
When he has a plan to eliminate his AOs, then you can start talking about EN.
I don�t feel I can share. I have feelings and those are judged. I am hurt by SD21 and by his actions around SD21 but he tells me I need to get over it.
His lovebusters are discouraging your honesty. You will not feel safe to meet his need for openness and honesty until he has eliminated his AOs and DJs.
He wants to understand how he can have his negative feelings without me feeling intimidated, specifically when he is angry [color:red]I told him to contact Steve
Good answer.
What does it look like when you say he needs to be doing something to stop his AOs? He is aware of them now, how they effect me and agrees they are unacceptable.
He needs to be actively eliminating them. He needs to come up with a plan to eliminate them. Dr. Harley has great advice on how to do that. He probably also needs to attend anger management.
We had a good call with Steve this morning. The one hour call ended up being two hours. H sent Steve an email which he did read. I left three voicemails which I�m sure he heard. Steve is not suggesting separation.
Our next assignment is to interview love busters. He said we are to install small fuses into the situation. We are to go over the 4 guidelines for successful negotiation, specifically focusing on step 2. If we cannot achieve step 2, we table it to talk to Steve. H was very angry at the beginning of the call and Steve heard and addressed Hs concerns in a very constructive way. H was very concerned about what he cannot control.
Thankfully, H was very open to all that was said. Logically he gets it. He says he doesn�t want to hurt me in any way. I need to stop avoiding situations because of my anxiety from the past. Steve says, I need to share my concern and allow movement through the four steps. If #2 is not achieved, we stop.
This will be a great instrument for him. I�m not sure if I am the right person to provide it to him.
�Baby steps� Steve Harley
Steve is not suggesting separation.
Separation is up to you. I am pretty sure the Harleys will support you in it, if it comes to that. BTW, you two can still counsel with Steve even if you are living apart.
Are you at least
preparing for a separation?
Does he have a plan to eliminate his AOs? All this homework on negotiation will mean nothing if he is not willing or able to eliminate his AOs.
He is going to need to end contact with his daughter until you are enthusiastic.
The one thing you must do if you are going to do your half is to let your husband know that this bothers you in a calm, respectful manner. What he does with this information and how he reacts to this information is up to him. If he replies with an AO, institute that move out plan Prisca advised you to work on. If he responds with DJ, remove yourself from the conversation. If he has an AO because of that, move out.
Dr. Harley likens the UA time to mutually meet intimate ENs as painting a picture-that the UA time allows the couple time to paint their picture. After some time I realized that when Lovebusters (anger, disrespect, independent behavior, lack of POJA, etc.) are also part of the relationship, the canvas isn't there and it's like trying to paint the picture on thin air. You do your part to provide the canvas, but he also has to do his part to provide the canvas.
Update on the situation. When he came home last night I was laying in bed. I put a blanket over my head so that he could not see that I was awake. When he went into the bathroom to get ready for bed my anger turned to hurt and I started crying. I sat up and started to gather up things to cry downstairs and he came out. I walked right past him and went downstairs.
He came down and asked me why was I crying. I told him I was hurt. He asked me why. I told him I felt like he didn�t love me and that I didn�t think he really wanted this relationship to work. I asked him why he wanted to know my location where I was working. He said because he thought we could have lunch at McDs if I was there. He asked me if there was anything he could do for me. I told him I needed affection. He asked if I wanted him to sit and hold me. I told him only if he wanted to. He sat and held me. I asked him why he couldn�t come downtown to have lunch with me and he said with the two hour coaching call in the morning and he had to take time to take SD11 to an orthodontist appointment he really didn�t have time to take an additional two hours to come downtown. Although my thoughts went to �he had time for his daughter� his efforts were softening my mood. We started chatting about odds and ins. He asked me if DD11 told me she was fighting with DD13. I said no and he told me when he came home the loft door was closed. He investigated why but didn�t address the issue.
The loft door is rarely moved and is usually shut to prevent SD21s kids from falling down the stairs when they are over. I will have to investigate more when I can talk to DD11 about her argument with DD13 but I also feel better thinking that maybe he didn�t have her in our home.
H told me that if he didn�t want this to work he wouldn�t be doing these coaching sessions because they are �not fun�. I am sure getting enjoyment out of them!!!!!! Finally someone who can logic with H about his actions! I want to be able to provide the love I am capable of and Steve is helping me to get there too! I�m okay working on myself cause I�m the only one I can change.
Thank you so much for the link! Super awesome post!! I agree with it fully! The POJA has been brought up only a little from Steve. He speaks a lot about the care and concern for the teammate. I don�t believe H has read much on the site. Steve brings up the theory of POJA and I think he will continue to emphasize its importance. I would imagine Steve would address this more as time goes by.
Separation is up to you. I am pretty sure the Harleys will support you in it, if it comes to that. BTW, you two can still counsel with Steve even if you are living apart.
I have sent Dr. Harley an email about the situation to see if I can gain his prospective. I would welcome a jointly agreed separation where we are continuing to work on things. H doesn�t seem to agree.
Are you at least preparing for a separation?
Yes, I have been preparing for over a year now. I can sustain by myself without issues. I have a good paying job and the house we live in was mine. We still have his house but it currently has renters.
Does he have a plan to eliminate his AOs? All this homework on negotiation will mean nothing if he is not willing or able to eliminate his AOs.
I think so. He has asked several questions of Steve on how to deal with it. I saw yesterday that he had written more questions down for Steve about his anger.
He is going to need to end contact with his daughter until you are enthusiastic.
He has no idea how many deposits that alone would create. He is stuck on the fact he feels I don�t want him to have a relationship with her. That is simply not true.
The one thing you must do if you are going to do your half is to let your husband know that this bothers you in a calm, respectful manner. What he does with this information and how he reacts to this information is up to him. If he replies with an AO, institute that move out plan Prisca advised you to work on. If he responds with DJ, remove yourself from the conversation. If he has an AO because of that, move out.
Great direction. I would like to get to this point. Right now I have so many walls up I want to test him on the homework Steve suggested first. I think we are going to try to do that Thursday night so we can have a call with Steve Friday. We have used our 5 session package up already and H has agreed to buy another 5 session package. �Baby Steps�
Dr. Harley likens the UA time to mutually meet intimate ENs as painting a picture-that the UA time allows the couple time to paint their picture. After some time I realized that when Lovebusters (anger, disrespect, independent behavior, lack of POJA, etc.) are also part of the relationship, the canvas isn't there and it's like trying to paint the picture on thin air. You do your part to provide the canvas, but he also has to do his part to provide the canvas.
I have read about UA time and am of course both drawn and deterred from the idea. Steve has not brought up this action. I�m wondering if that is because we are still in the education piece of our �project plan�
To all that have posted in this thread, you have no idea how grateful I am of every word you have put on here. Each and every one of you, have great care and concern for people you do not really know and that is truly amazing. I feel really blessed by God that He has brought us together to aid in His plan. God bless you all and the Harley�s as they continue to have an impact on His plan even when the marriages end up being negative outcomes!!!
This is such a great article. I sent it to H with the following:
I found this article to be very interesting to me and thought you might have interest in it as well.
What I have seen is that I am guilty of independent behavior. An example is picking paint for the bedroom and bathroom. Both places are in our house. It was very inconsiderate of me to not allow you to be a part of the decision. Not only did I pick up the paint without consulting you, once you saw the paint and had a concern (for the bathroom) your concern was not addressed via POJA, leaving you feeling type A resentment.
I violated the POJA which only gave you no choice but to feel the effect of my thoughtless decision.
Had I not violated the POJA, I would have had type B resentment which seems like I'm setting myself to be hurt but the fact is that my resentment would have not been at the larger level of the type A resentment which you had to endure.
Does that make sense?
I hope it does. Regardless of it making sense, I would like to say I am sorry for not being in alignment with you on picking the paint colors. Your feelings are important to me. It was unacceptable for me to think of my own desires when it was at a cost to you. I know that I hurt you and it was not right. I hope you can please forgive me.
He asked me if there was anything he could do for me. I told him I needed affection. He asked if I wanted him to sit and hold me. I told him only if he wanted to. He sat and held me.
Good step on his part.
H told me that if he didn�t want this to work he wouldn�t be doing these coaching sessions because they are �not fun�.
Good. Then he won't have another AO
The POJA has been brought up only a little from Steve. He speaks a lot about the care and concern for the teammate. I don�t believe H has read much on the site. Steve brings up the theory of POJA and I think he will continue to emphasize its importance. I would imagine Steve would address this more as time goes by.
Likely. Be prepared for your husband not to like it at first. It's the POJA that is going to tell your husband he can't see his daughter until you are enthusiastic.
I have sent Dr. Harley an email about the situation to see if I can gain his prospective.
GREAT! Let us know what he says.
I would welcome a jointly agreed separation where we are continuing to work on things. H doesn�t seem to agree.
No, if you separate, he doesn't get a say. It will need to be a wake up call for him.
Yes, I have been preparing for over a year now. I can sustain by myself without issues. I have a good paying job and the house we live in was mine.
This is good. So you can go into a separation at moments notice?
I noticed with his last AO, you asked him to leave and he threatened to leave for good, so you caved.
Make that the last AO you tolerate. What can you do differently, if it happens again?
He has asked several questions of Steve on how to deal with it. I saw yesterday that he had written more questions down for Steve about his anger.
This is very good
Maybe he will start taking action to eliminate them for good.
I have read about UA time and am of course both drawn and deterred from the idea. Steve has not brought up this action. I�m wondering if that is because we are still in the education piece of our �project plan�
It is a bit unusual to not have had UA introduced yet, since this program is based on UA. But I have heard Dr. Harley say that he doesn't always advise UA when there is a big problem with AOs in the marriage.
Your letter was good, btw.
H told me that if he didn�t want this to work he wouldn�t be doing these coaching sessions because they are �not fun�.
Good. Then he won't have another AO
I assume that is sarcastic cause we both know he will.
The POJA has been brought up only a little from Steve. He speaks a lot about the care and concern for the teammate. I don�t believe H has read much on the site. Steve brings up the theory of POJA and I think he will continue to emphasize its importance. I would imagine Steve would address this more as time goes by.
Likely. Be prepared for your husband not to like it at first. It's the POJA that is going to tell your husband he can't see his daughter until you are enthusiastic.
I was prepared for that when I read about it two years ago. His ability to actually be on board with POJA will be a sign of whether this relationship will work. I can�t handle the pain for much longer.
I have sent Dr. Harley an email about the situation to see if I can gain his prospective.
GREAT! Let us know what he says.
Angry Outbursts are the final and most inappropriate form of abuse and control. As long as either spouse can�t control their anger, their marriage has little hope of improving or being fulfilling. It�s not only an ineffective way to overcome problems, but it is also very dangerous. There are many cases every year of people who killed or maimed their spouse in a fit of rage, where they never thought they would do such a thing. I usually recommend that overcoming angry outbursts, and all other forms of abuse and control (demands and disrespectful judgments) be eliminated before trying to resolve conflicts, or even trying to meet emotional needs. Your sincere effort to please a controlling and abusive husband puts you in a dangerous position both emotionally and physically. So until your husband learns to control his temper, I wouldn�t even consider trying to meet his emotional needs.
I assume that you are already separated, since you talk about changing the locks. I definitely feel that your husband�s ability to be with you at will puts you in danger, so I would agree with that recommendation if he comes to the house unannounced. From what you have written in this letter, I�d suggest that you continue to be separated until all vestiges of control and abuse have been completely eliminated, and then return to live with each other. Since I have not heard your husband�s perspective, I can�t be sure that the facts you mention are true. But if they are, you�re in danger even if you are separated.
I have responded with the following:
We are not separated. People on the forum are really pushing that I need to change the locks and tell him he needs to get his AOs, SDs and DJs under control. Steve is working with him to logically understand why they need addressed. (Steve is super awesome at getting him to see logic and still validate his feelings) H is open to this, seems to understand on paper but the feeling is not fully there. Steve has not suggested a separation is in order. He continues to have us travel down the path to resolve conflict. He is having us �install small fuses� and assure that if we cannot get past step 2 of understanding each side we should stop and bring it to Steve. I think we can do that which it is so very stressful on me because of my anxiety (which I know I need to work on) I agree the elimination of AOs, SDs and DJs are a major factor in our success. If H needs to address the fiery three before moving to the relationship, I need someone to work with him to accept or not accept this phase instead of having us work though sharing our ENs and LBs.
I feel that while he is willing to work on his AOs he is still struggling with my actions or lack thereof and making sure his needs are addressed. While he is willing to work through the program, he is not really fully on board with the program. He is very concerned about his own needs. Rightfully so, as I know my needs are important too. I know however, that I do not have full control over the conditions that create my feelings. I only have control to be able to inform what the conditions look like to me.
Unless he can use the POJA to cease so much activity with his daughter, we will not get anywhere. If he did have a temporary leave from her to aid in our recovery he would deposit a numerous amount of deposits as I know how he feels about it all. I have read about type A and B resentments. Those would definitely come into play as he has huge feelings around his relationship with his daughter as well as do I.
I believe I would feel better living in a separated environment temporarily while working through these items but only if he was in agreement. If he is not, then it will be the end of our relationship as he is not fully onboard with the program. I cannot seem to logically get him to understand how it would be beneficial. Frankly, it seems that there is nothing I can do to please him at this current time and he is sure to bring it up to Steve that he is doing it all and I am doing nothing.
H won�t even sleep on the couch so I can have the bed to myself. He has threatened that if he leaves he is not coming back. I know he has heard that he is not in control of my actions, he is very emotional and will have a hard time overcoming his controlling tendencies. I�m waiting for a response.
I would welcome a jointly agreed separation where we are continuing to work on things. H doesn�t seem to agree.
No, if you separate, he doesn't get a say. It will need to be a wake up call for him.
Gulp! Obviously, this is a big struggle for me.
Yes, I have been preparing for over a year now. I can sustain by myself without issues. I have a good paying job and the house we live in was mine.
This is good. So you can go into a separation at moments notice?
Oh yes! I have been a self sustaining person for several years although my life style has increased due to the additional income but I can survive without him.
I noticed with his last AO, you asked him to leave and he threatened to leave for good, so you caved.
Make that the last AO you tolerate. What can you do differently, if it happens again?
I need support when it happens. I can tell him to leave but my follow through is lacking to say the least. I called Steve when it happened last but of course he didn�t respond to me when I needed the support. I can post on here to see if I get feedback as support. I already know what my friends say and most of them are not in the frame of mind to use steps to improve the marriage as this forum does. They just think I should divorce him since I�m so unhappy and that is not what I want.
He has asked several questions of Steve on how to deal with it. I saw yesterday that he had written more questions down for Steve about his anger.
This is very good
Maybe he will start taking action to eliminate them for good.
Yes, maybe so. We have done our five session package. I called yesterday to purchase another package to continue.
I have read about UA time and am of course both drawn and deterred from the idea. Steve has not brought up this action. I�m wondering if that is because we are still in the education piece of our �project plan�
It is a bit unusual to not have had UA introduced yet, since this program is based on UA. But I have heard Dr. Harley say that he doesn't always advise UA when there is a big problem with AOs in the marriage.
Yea, I think it is odd too. I have a love/hate feeling about UA with him. I want UA and affection from him but I have felt so bad being around him from lovebusters that I just don�t care to be around him and sometimes am just anxious expecting lovebusters from patterns of past behavior.
Your letter was good, btw.
Thanks for saying so!! His response was
�I read your email about resentment. Thank you for sending it to me and for your apology.� I guess it was something.
It sounds like Dr. Harley agrees that you are in danger and should separate.
Steve can continue to work with him after he is out of the house. He does not need to be under the same roof as you in order to fix his lovebuster -- he needs to leave in order to protect you. He's not going to do that on his own. You're going to have to make him.
If H needs to address the fiery three before moving to the relationship, I need someone to work with him to accept or not accept this phase instead of having us work though sharing our ENs and LBs.
Kicking him out will definitely push the problem of AOs to the forefront, because he won't be coming home until those are gone!
I believe I would feel better living in a separated environment temporarily while working through these items but only if he was in agreement.
He may never agree to this, but he doesn't have to. Kicking him out will push him to a choice -- do what it takes to keep you, or lose you.
I noticed with his last AO, you asked him to leave and he threatened to leave for good, so you caved.
Make that the last AO you tolerate. What can you do differently, if it happens again?
I need support when it happens. I can tell him to leave but my follow through is lacking to say the least.
Don't tell him to leave when he is having an AO. He will not listen. What you need to do is get away from him as soon as you can, and don't engage him. He will probably clam down and act as if everything is normal.
You need to change the locks on him when he is not there -- when he goes to work, for example. And don't engage him. I would pack his things, leave them outside, with a letter telling him you would like to have a marriage with him, but you can no longer tolerate his AOs (the "Listen Buster" quote from Dr. Harley would be a great one to base a letter off of). Then tell him to contact Steve, and Dr. Harley. They will tell him what he needs to do.
Don't ask him to leave. Make him. Don't debate him.
I called Steve when it happened last but of course he didn�t respond to me when I needed the support.
You can do this AS you are changing the locks.
They just think I should divorce him since I�m so unhappy and that is not what I want.
I don't think you should divorce him. Yet. Separation is not divorce. What you will be doing is letting him know that this is SERIOUS, and it MUST change. Or he risks losing you.
I have a love/hate feeling about UA with him. I want UA and affection from him but I have felt so bad being around him from lovebusters that I just don�t care to be around him and sometimes am just anxious expecting lovebusters from patterns of past behavior.
Dr. Harley has told you not to meet his EN at this time, so UA really has no point here. There's really nothing you can do as long as his AOs continue.
Reminder:
A good husband who discovers that his wife has changed the locks will come to her on his knees, hat in hand, asking "What do I need to do to win you back?" If he disappears from your life without another word, you are better off without him. Trust me.
Will he enroll in Anger Management?
I believe I would feel better living in a separated environment temporarily while working through these items but only if he was in agreement. If he is not, then it will be the end of our relationship as he is not fully onboard with the program. I cannot seem to logically get him to understand how it would be beneficial.
We all know, though, that he's not going to agree to that. You're not going to persuade him that it's beneficial.
What may happen if you separate from him and insist that you will not allow him back home until he learns to control his angry outbursts, is that at first he may be angry and not agree, but after he has time to think it over and considers his situation, he may rise to the occasion and do what needs to be done to win his wife back. As my wife posted, he may come back "hat in hand" asking what he needs to do to restore your marriage. If he has no way to get home other than to learn to control his angry outbursts, he may suddenly start to see it as beneficial without any persuasion at all!
If he doesn't, then, I think you are right, it is the end of the marriage.
Update, yesterday evening we sat down to interview each other on LBs. We started with my #1. H was very gentle in his tone, appearance, words and actions. My #1 LB is Selfish Demands. He asked for examples. I cried a lot from hurt feelings over the past and from the general stress of sharing with him feelings because with past behavior there are DJs that come as a result of my feelings. He was sure to check with me often if I was ok and see if I needed a few moments or I wanted to stop. Overall my sharing with him went well, however, I do wonder what anger is underneath that he will express to Steve on our call today.
H, then asked if I wanted to stop or continue. I said we could continue. He shared his #1 LB of Annoying Habits. He shared a number of things. I only asked for clarification around one that was vague as to what specifically was the action that was annoying. He felt he needed to give me an example for �leaving piles around for days�. I thought it was pretty self explanatory. His example was that there was a pile upstairs next to the hope chest. I told him that is gone now. He said it was there this morning. I told him it was not because I took care of it on Tuesday (2 days prior). He became frustrated feeling that I was arguing with him. He said he was done with this exercise. I asked for a quick break. I took small walk away break and came back to tell him that I understand that I do leave things lay around for much longer than they should and he was right that the pile had lay around for days rather than being taken care of but I know it was picked up on Tuesday when I picked up other things in the loft and he was at dinner with his parents.
Investigative reporting ceased at that point. He was done. He was angry but handled it really well considering past behavior.
He asked a few minutes later if I was angry. I was probably a bit angry or rather hurt because I feel like he doesn't believe me when I know what I did (residual effects childhood trama issues)
I told him no I was not angry, I was disappointed, which I was more disappointed we had stopped the hurt part of me knows I was right and he was wrong. I can respect that he utilized the small fuse and didn't let it escalate. See....my hubby isn't so bad.
I wasn�t trying to minimize the importance of this action of mine that hurts him. I acknowledged that it had been laying there. The question was he was saying I didn�t pick it up and I did. The feeling I had behind that is that I feel like I can never do right by him and I can�t be trusted or believed. I do things and he doesn�t notice. I understand that it is okay for him not to notice as my goal is to prevent the hurtful behavior so he is not hurt to begin with. I do not need acknowledgement that he noticed. I need him to trust me when I say I did something and I�m sure of it. I am quick to say when I am unsure of something. I�m a forgetful person by nature so when I do remember something clear as day I am sure of it and 99% of the time am correct.
I see that my feelings were getting the best of me in the moment so maybe it wasn�t the right time for me to correct his thoughts and that is what led down the negative path. Thoughts?
Also, what do we do when we are at a point where he is adamant that it was there is the morning but I know it was not? I�m the one who moved it, so shouldn�t I be the one to really know?? I�m detailed in my thinking but also scatterbrained. My ADD leaves many things forgotten. My detailed thinking is what helps keep me in check with my ADD.
It's times like this that I want to yell that I am not his freakin enemy!!!
How could I have handled the situation better?
If the disagreement was outside of sharing LBs what would have been the best way to address his incorrect perception?
How could I have handled the situation better?
When your spouse tells you about a lovebuster, simply say "Thank you for telling me." Then take care never to do it again.
If you had already taken care of the pile he was upset about, then this was an easy fix and there is no longer a problem. Why argue about it? Take care not to leave such piles in the future now that you know it bothers him.
If the disagreement was outside of sharing LBs what would have been the best way to address his incorrect perception?
Calling his perception "incorrect" is a DJ.
There is no reason to correct his perception. Trying to do so is a DJ.
He complained about a lovebuster.
You knew you had already fixed that one issue (easy fix!), and you know it will bother him if you do it again (so don't!).
How could I have handled the situation better?
How can you control your emotions when you're talking with your H?
You might ask for clarification. If he insists the pile is still there, it may be a different pile, or he has a different definition of what constitutes a pile.
So instead of going back and forth with "yes it is, no it isn't" why not ask him to show you so you can see the pile.
The goal isn't to be right about the pile, the goal is to understand the LB. One like this is pretty easy, show me!
If it's not there as you said, you simply understand how much it bothers him and pledge to make sure it no longer happens.
As others have suggested, it's more important to consistently demonstrate your commitment to avoiding the LB behavior than it is to be right about what happened in the past.
The other day, my wife and I disagreed on something. It was similar to the pile issue. I had taken care of the issue a day prior, she didn't feel I had. My answer was to apologize and tell her I'd be more timely (in a nutshell). What happened with what you did turned it into a who's right/who's wrong. This will turn the LB exercise into an unsafe event.
There's a good saying, 'would you rather be right or happy?' The better response to him would have listened to him and make a plan to address the leaving piles out issue.
The other day, my wife and I disagreed on something. It was similar to the pile issue. I had taken care of the issue a day prior, she didn't feel I had. My answer was to apologize and tell her I'd be more timely (in a nutshell). What happened with what you did turned it into a who's right/who's wrong. This will turn the LB exercise into an unsafe event.
There's a good saying, 'would you rather be right or happy?' The better response to him would have listened to him and make a plan to address the leaving piles out issue.
There's another good saying "There's no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't work.".
How could I have handled the situation better?
When your spouse tells you about a lovebuster, simply say "Thank you for telling me." Then take care never to do it again.
I think it boils down to that we should be in the frame of mind that we share them and the other should make every effort to avoid them. It would be easy if it was as simple as it sounds. It�s hard to deviate from actions that are comfortable for us��not an excuse, but more of a wake up, hello moment for wipedout on that one.
Steve likened it today to his golf swing. He didn�t learn correctly when he learned to first golf. Now he has some horrible habits and his swing is awful. He can manage through his habits and still play golf and get by but it is not the best he can be because he is not using the �instruments� that are proven for golfing success.
If you had already taken care of the pile he was upset about, then this was an easy fix and there is no longer a problem. Why argue about it? Take care not to leave such piles in the future now that you know it bothers him.
He was providing an example of the overall behavior that bothers him. I will take care in the future. I let it become about me and at that moment it was about him.
Here is where I see we are positioned. We didn�t make it through the full interview of this LB so I am unclear of the full expectation but I have a good idea. It is easy to provide you my position as a defense.
The call with Steve today helped me see that his sharing my LBs was to be solely about him. That however does not mean we do not achieve guideline #2 of successful negotiation. What does the transition from hearing the others concern like LBs to identifying the others perspective look? What is the timing on this? Is it the original sharer who initiates learning the others perspective to gain alignment?
Calling his perception "incorrect" is a DJ.
There is no reason to correct his perception. Trying to do so is a DJ.
He complained about a lovebuster.
Thanks for calling it like it is. You are right. Constant realignment with the �instruments� are going to been needed for my bad habits!!!
How can you control your emotions when you're talking with your H?
I need a new belief system as Steve calls it. I think prior to him sharing LBs with me, I should review the instruments so that I am aware and they are at the forefront of my thoughts.
You might ask for clarification. If he insists the pile is still there, it may be a different pile, or he has a different definition of what constitutes a pile.
So instead of going back and forth with "yes it is, no it isn't" why not ask him to show you so you can see the pile.
The goal isn't to be right about the pile, the goal is to understand the LB. One like this is pretty easy, show me!
If it's not there as you said, you simply understand how much it bothers him and pledge to make sure it no longer happens.
As others have suggested, it's more important to consistently demonstrate your commitment to avoiding the LB behavior than it is to be right about what happened in the past.
You are right that I can prove by simply asking him to physically show me. I don�t think it should be needed although it would make me feel better to know I was right and he was wrong�. But the issue wasn�t about who is right or wrong, it was about how my lack of care in picking up things hurts him. Thanks for your comments!
The other day, my wife and I disagreed on something. It was similar to the pile issue. I had taken care of the issue a day prior, she didn't feel I had. My answer was to apologize and tell her I'd be more timely (in a nutshell). What happened with what you did turned it into a who's right/who's wrong. This will turn the LB exercise into an unsafe event.
There's a good saying, 'would you rather be right or happy?' The better response to him would have listened to him and make a plan to address the leaving piles out issue.
I can see your point.
The other day, my wife and I disagreed on something. It was similar to the pile issue. I had taken care of the issue a day prior, she didn't feel I had. My answer was to apologize and tell her I'd be more timely (in a nutshell). What happened with what you did turned it into a who's right/who's wrong. This will turn the LB exercise into an unsafe event.
There's a good saying, 'would you rather be right or happy?' The better response to him would have listened to him and make a plan to address the leaving piles out issue.
There's another good saying "There's no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't work.".
I like that quote!
Our weekend assignment is to finish our LB and EN interviewing and to read about UA. He is reluctant to have us implement UA until we can fully understand how it works. He said if we do not spend the time correctly it can actually hurt us so he expressed the importance of getting through the LB and EN interviews. Our next call is scheduled for Tuesday.
I am so depressed from the balance of my love bank. I am so hurt all the time. I continue to press forward with what I have control. How do I stop crying from what I can't control.
Nothing new. I'm hyper-sensitive. I receiced tickets to an event today and I really wanted to ho. H didnt want to go because SD11 is with us this weekend(we have her 50%). During a dinner prayer, H thanked God for SD11 who was with us. Nothing about me. Then my mind went to the picture H has on his phone wallpaper. It is of H and SD21s children that SD21 keeps away from me. When I saw he had changed the picture from me (which he had for a few years) to them, I was hurt. When I shared that with him when it happened (6 months ago) he told me he had a problem if I felt I should be the only one on his phone. H had the grandson on his tablet at the time and that didn't bother me. I just feel alone and unimportant. I hurt so badly.
We are suppose to sit down in a few minutes to work on sharing the rest of our LBs and ENs. I am a depressed wreck.
If he never has another AO again, you are on the right track to getting your EN met, and the depression will go away.
You are not hyper-sensitive. You are abused and neglected.
The things you listed are things that you should be able to negotiate. But, sadly, negotiation is impossible right now as long as the threat of abuse hangs over you. It is understandable that you are depressed.
If he never has another AO again, you are on the right track to getting your EN met, and the depression will go away.
You are not hyper-sensitive. You are abused and neglected.
The things you listed are things that you should be able to negotiate. But, sadly, negotiation is impossible right now as long as the threat of abuse hangs over you. It is understandable that you are depressed.
Thanks so much for your message Prisca!! It really helped me to hear that I am abused and neglected and that it was understandable that I am depressed.
I have my doubts about the ability of H to stick with the plan. We spent two days over the weekend sharing all LBs and five of the ENs. There were no AOs, but lots of fear from me from the past but I pressed on. We shared all the LBs and five of the ENs. H wanted to stop after five.
Although he did not have an AO, I can tell he is very upset. He is very distant even today. I have a feeling it is because in sharing my ENs he sees that I need him to stick up for me with SD21 and that will mean that she will shut him out because she is not getting her way and therefore he will not get to see the grandchildren. Prior to this program, he insisted I just need to deal with the relationship because he is not pushing his daughter to the side. I have always had a hard time being able to get him to understand my feelings around it all.
It is not that I don�t want him to have a relationship with her. I encouraged it in the beginning and pushed to have her come live with us right after we married so she could get her high school diploma. He didn�t want her there because we were newly married. I knew that we wouldn�t have another chance and we needed to do the right thing.
I think sharing ENs and LBs has allowed me to have an easier way to share my feelings not focused on the topic of SD21 but as my feelings in general. I want to be stood up for and someone to help fight my battles, like he did when we were dating with issues with my XH.
Our previous marriage counselor told us that I needed to let him have his relationship with her. She said, I just needed help in dealing with her shutting me out. He has hung onto that and uses it to support his stance. I shouldn�t get between a daddy and his daughter is what he and the counselor would say. I don�t think that it would have been a problem had he not wanted me to try to have a relationship with her but he did and now I hurt and badly it is. He hides things about her and I feel he pretends I�m not in the picture when he is with her. Needless to say, my feelings of him having an �affair� are stronger than they have ever been.
I believe in the program. I know if it is followed romantic love will be restored. It will be a tough road ahead for both of us.
In our discussions there are three things that concern me. First, when he brought up the LB of AO from me, he experiences no unhappiness from me and that he actually wished I would have AOs. I asked him why and he said that he saw his parents do it. Wow� not the relationship I want. I am for talking about things and working through them but only done so in a respectful way with care and concern for the other.
The next item that concerned me is when I brought up my need for honesty and openness. I told him I needed radical honesty. I had said this to him early on in our marriage but a marriage counselor (different one then I spoke of above) told me that there are some things that just should not be shared so as to not hurt the other. I highly disagree. That doesn�t provide connectedness in my opinion. I don�t want to purposely hurt him but I want to be completely open.
This idea has made me nervous to share two ENs tonight. SF and PA. He already thinks he isn�t good in bed and he knows he is overweight and 14 years older than me. I know my feelings will hurt him but they are my feelings. Should I table this discussion till after we speak with Steve tomorrow? My guess is that Steve will be able to logic with him as to why radical honesty is needed.
Then when I shared my emotional need of DS, in him asking questions he asked what was the expectation of cleaning up the dog puke on the carpet. We came to the position that maybe that was trying to solve the issue so we tabled it to talk to Steve. The concern is that he views them as expectations, I view them as desires. I feel that expectations lead to the controlled feelings. Anyone have thoughts around that?
You are engaged in the DJ's again when you start saying "I know my feelings will hurt him..."
You are saying he can't handle the truth, which does neither of you any good.
Personally, I view expectation as standard. It's hard to hit the target if you don't know the target.
This program deals in specifics. There is an expectation that you have 15+ hours of UA time. That's a quantifiable standard, an expectation that must be met to ensure success.
If you want SF, then there is likely a number or range of numbers that you have in mind to satisfy your EN.
If I understand correctly, expectations are critical to the success of the program.
However, demands are not part of the program. Is it possible he is experiencing expectations as demands? If he's not in enthusiastic agreement, I could see him viewing expectations more like demands.
Just thinking out loud here.
You are engaged in the DJ's again when you start saying "I know my feelings will hurt him..."
You are saying he can't handle the truth, which does neither of you any good.
Good point. He is the one that is telling me he can't handle the truth. He doesn't want radical honesty. I however do. What do I do if he says he doesn't want to know because he can't handle the truth?
Personally, I view expectation as standard. It's hard to hit the target if you don't know the target.
This program deals in specifics. There is an expectation that you have 15+ hours of UA time. That's a quantifiable standard, an expectation that must be met to ensure success.
If you want SF, then there is likely a number or range of numbers that you have in mind to satisfy your EN.
If I understand correctly, expectations are critical to the success of the program.
However, demands are not part of the program. Is it possible he is experiencing expectations as demands? If he's not in enthusiastic agreement, I could see him viewing expectations more like demands.
AH!!!! Great view point! SDs has been a part of my marriage since day one so it sound like I am having trouble with the difference between expectations and SDs. Great insight.
So if you could help me with my thoughts. How detailed is my expectation to be? I want the dog puke cleaned up immediately. He asks what does immediate look like. To me that depends on the situation. He asked if the dog did it in the morning if he needed to clean it up and be late for work. Part of me says it can wait till he comes home but then he says when he gets home the girls have a softball game and we need to feed them so the evening is booked so does he just wait?
We are fairly new to this process. Your help is appreciated!!
HELP!!!!!!
H: I am scared to ask you something.
Me: I�m sorry. What makes you scared?
H: I am afraid you will be hurt or mad. I am concerned.
Me: concerned about?
H: concerned for you. I don�t want you to hurt.
He feels I will not like what he has to say... my guess is ... he wants to do something with SD21.
How should I handle this?
Ask him what he would like to say. Thank him for his honesty, whatever it is, and do not get angry or disrespectful.
If you cannot discuss it without being angry or disrespectful, ask for time to respond.
Ok, thanks Prisca.... I need you on speed dial!
Be sure to thank him for his honesty. You do not want to discourage honesty.
OK.... SD21 asked him if he and SD11 could come over for dinner wednesday night. me an my two children are not invited of course.
this is where i'm not sure of my feelings. it is hurtful. my 13 year old made a gift for her newborn and she will be hurt that she wasn't invited. i am hurt that H doesn't insist i am a part of his life and should come too. He says my youngest has a softball game so I will be at that and he will miss it.
my response to him was Ah! thanks for sharing! can i get back with you?
It is not his fault SD21 is acting this way. I don't know what to feel or tell him. In the past I would just say whatever and let him go, which would build resentment. I know he can't change her and he gets upset with me when I communicate anything along the lines of trying. I don't know how to communicate with him on this. She doesn't respect me at all. I don't like that he requires me to respect her but not the other way around. It hurts.
Yep, sometimes truth hurts.
However the pain is often easier to take if you each have some glimmer of hope for improvement.
You are engaged in the DJ's again when you start saying "I know my feelings will hurt him..."
You are saying he can't handle the truth, which does neither of you any good.
Good point. He is the one that is telling me he can't handle the truth. He doesn't want radical honesty. I however do. What do I do if he says he doesn't want to know because he can't handle the truth?
Personally, I view expectation as standard. It's hard to hit the target if you don't know the target.
This program deals in specifics. There is an expectation that you have 15+ hours of UA time. That's a quantifiable standard, an expectation that must be met to ensure success.
If you want SF, then there is likely a number or range of numbers that you have in mind to satisfy your EN.
If I understand correctly, expectations are critical to the success of the program.
However, demands are not part of the program. Is it possible he is experiencing expectations as demands? If he's not in enthusiastic agreement, I could see him viewing expectations more like demands.
AH!!!! Great view point! SDs has been a part of my marriage since day one so it sound like I am having trouble with the difference between expectations and SDs. Great insight.
So if you could help me with my thoughts. How detailed is my expectation to be? I want the dog puke cleaned up immediately. He asks what does immediate look like. To me that depends on the situation. He asked if the dog did it in the morning if he needed to clean it up and be late for work. Part of me says it can wait till he comes home but then he says when he gets home the girls have a softball game and we need to feed them so the evening is booked so does he just wait?
We are fairly new to this process. Your help is appreciated!!
This is negotiation. What are each of you enthusiastic about? You lay out the problems and brainstorm all the potential solution.
I.E Problem = dog pukes.
Solutions.
1. He cleans it up now.
2. He cleans it later.
3. You clean it up now.
4. You clean it up later.
5. The dog finds a new home, lives outside so he/she can't puke in the house.
And so on.
You work to find one that each of you is enthusiastic about.
Much of this is easier when each of you is operating with a full love bank. When the bank is depleted by LBs it's difficult to trust that negotiation will result in a win-win solution.
If I recall correctly, there has to be a balance of your Giver and Taker. When the Love Bank is overdrawn, there is a lot more taker than giver.
When relationships first start, there is often a lot more giver than taker, and that is not sustainable either.
I may not say it well, but the point is, the program has to not only offer you an improved marriage, but it must offer him the same. Just as you get to define what makes a good marriage for you, he too gets to define what makes a good marriage for him.
What is it that leads him to believe it's not in his best interests to both be honest, sharing how his thoughts and feeling, nor allowing you to do the same?
It reads as if he not only doesn't enjoy when you share, but he is afraid to share as well.
I told H that I am not enthusiastic about SD21 being in our lives right now (per suggestion from Prisca on an earlier post-THANKS!). His response....no AO! Yeah! Then he said can I share with you? He said he is not enthusiastic about her not being in his life. Nice eh?!? Well at least no AO! He is learning. I said I can understand that. Topic is tabled for Steve tomorrow.
I told H that I am not enthusiastic about SD21 being in our lives right now (per suggestion from Prisca on an earlier post-THANKS!). His response....no AO! Yeah! Then he said can I share with you? He said he is not enthusiastic about her not being in his life. Nice eh?!? Well at least no AO! He is learning. I said I can understand that. Topic is tabled for Steve tomorrow.
The default of POJA is do nothing. Neither of you can see her until you've negotiated and come to an enthusiastic agreement.
The next step is for him to find out what it takes for you to be enthusiastic about her being in your lives or him enthusiastic about not seeing her.
Then, how do you make the chosen solution happen? Are there checkpoints along the way that will indicate that progress is being made towards the chosen solution?
Yep, sometimes truth hurts.
However the pain is often easier to take if you each have some glimmer of hope for improvement.
This is negotiation. What are each of you enthusiastic about? You lay out the problems and brainstorm all the potential solution.
I.E Problem = dog pukes.
Solutions.
1. He cleans it up now.
2. He cleans it later.
3. You clean it up now.
4. You clean it up later.
5. The dog finds a new home, lives outside so he/she can't puke in the house.
And so on.
You work to find one that each of you is enthusiastic about.
Much of this is easier when each of you is operating with a full love bank. When the bank is depleted by LBs it's difficult to trust that negotiation will result in a win-win solution.
If I recall correctly, there has to be a balance of your Giver and Taker. When the Love Bank is overdrawn, there is a lot more taker than giver.
When relationships first start, there is often a lot more giver than taker, and that is not sustainable either.
Thanks for the example! It is really helpful.
I may not say it well, but the point is, the program has to not only offer you an improved marriage, but it must offer him the same. Just as you get to define what makes a good marriage for you, he too gets to define what makes a good marriage for him.
What is it that leads him to believe it's not in his best interests to both be honest, sharing how his thoughts and feeling, nor allowing you to do the same?
It reads as if he not only doesn't enjoy when you share, but he is afraid to share as well.
I highly agree that it should be improved for him as well! I want him to be happy. I feel that is why I feel so horrible now. I sacrifice to make him happy, but now I�m seeing now that is not the right move. Not only do I feel controlled but I have tons of resentment as well.
Last night he said he wasn�t scared to ask me the question, he was scared because the potential of him going would hurt me. To me, he had already decided he was going. I do not want him to never see his daughter again. I know his relationship with her is important. It is important to me too. I am hurt incredibly by her behavior. That has nothing to do with his relationship with her because he cannot control her.
I am hurt incredibly by his behavior too. What has gotten me to this point is that I don�t feel my H respects me. I feel he has SDs when it comes to his daughter. He pushed to have her live with us at one point when I didn't want her here. Then when she was here he belittled me about my depressed attitude. Never once I have received an apology from him.
In times when she has hurt him (which is part of an ongoing sick cycle), prior to her having kids, he was ready to never have anything to do with her again. Now that she has kids the game has changed. She uses them to control H or anyone that she can. She has found that although she can�t demand him to divorce me she can use the kids to keep me away from her and them. H does not feel I have done anything wrong and feels she is not right in her behavior. She will not reason�. Hmmmm seems kinda like how H is doing now with this subject.
The default of POJA is do nothing. Neither of you can see her until you've negotiated and come to an enthusiastic agreement.
He is unwilling to do nothing. He stated so in our coaching call today. He seems to have it set in his head that I want him to turn his back on his daughter. I have told him that is not the case but it doesn�t seem to matter. Steve even told him the same. Steve tried to get him to see the big picture, the end of all this, with no avail. I know he wants a relationship with his daughter and I want that for him too.
Today I felt controlled. I�m tired of trying at this point. My taker is in full force right now. Resentment and control is what is getting his needs met at this point. He is blatantly against POJA when it comes to his daughter. How can we move forward with the lack of alignment to the process?
Today he has been very angry, no AO, just very distant and cold. That doesn�t help matters, it just multiply the withdrawals. I don�t know how much longer I can endure the lack of love. I am finding that I don�t want him to even bother opening a door for me. Opening a door is not what I need. I need major love deposits if he is going to insist his way with his daughter.
The next step is for him to find out what it takes for you to be enthusiastic about her being in your lives or him enthusiastic about not seeing her.
Then, how do you make the chosen solution happen? Are there checkpoints along the way that will indicate that progress is being made towards the chosen solution?
OMG!!! That sounds so simple. For him to see her he needs to fill my love bank. Make me his #1 priority to love, fill my love bank without abandon. I'm sick of hurting and being on a receiving end of his anger and selfish demands.
I believe this will be two failed marriages for him where his wife said he is controlling. Hello?!?!?!?!?!
Because you are. Selfish Demands are a form of control.
He is blatantly against POJA when it comes to his daughter. How can we move forward with the lack of alignment to the process?
You can't. It is impossible to negotiate if one spouse allows him or herself to have Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgements, or Angry Outbursts.
Your husband is a part of your life by invitation only. He is going to have to start taking your feelings into account.
Being unwilling to use the POJA on some issues, especially the ones that bother you the most, undermines the spirit of integration that Dr. Harley talks a lot about. What is it he says? Yes, whatever independent behavior one insists on doing regardless of how their spouse feels will get between the couple and end up making the marriage an unhappy one, even if the activity is as clean as stamp collecting, and even if it's the only one.
I sympathize with you - I know what it's like to have grown stepchildren move into your home without your agreement, sometimes along with children, girlfriends, and spouse, and how it feels when their wishes and well-being mean more than yours. It's an extremely difficult situation to live with and yet still treat your husband with respect, dignity, and to continue to meet his needs. Especially difficult to meet those needs with enthusiasm and a smile.
The best you can do is just continue to be respectful and let him know, simply and with no justification, that the way he's carrying on his relationship with his daughter hurts you. Every time it hurts let him know - simply, quietly, unemotionally. Then, for goodness' sake, don't try to justify why you feel the way you do.
Do you still have some more sessions with Steve?
Because you are. Selfish Demands are a form of control.
Thanks for validating my feelings.
He is blatantly against POJA when it comes to his daughter. How can we move forward with the lack of alignment to the process?
You can't. It is impossible to negotiate if one spouse allows him or herself to have Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgements, or Angry Outbursts.
Then I�m not sure how much more I can take.
Your husband is a part of your life by invitation only. He is going to have to start taking your feelings into account.
Good point.
Being unwilling to use the POJA on some issues, especially the ones that bother you the most, undermines the spirit of integration that Dr. Harley talks a lot about. What is it he says?
He says he is not going to turn his back on his daughter and shut her out like she does to him. I tell him I don�t want him to shut her out of his life completely. I want them to have a relationship. He seems unwilling to understand my perspective. He has DJs around the whole issue. I have made comments in the past out of hurt and anger around the subject of her. Not only has she hurt me but H does too. In a moment of sanity I can see that all I want is to be loved and when I share my feelings about SD21 it results in days of unloving behavior. How can I not feel the way I do with that occurring?
I sympathize with you - I know what it's like to have grown stepchildren move into your home without your agreement, sometimes along with children, girlfriends, and spouse, and how it feels when their wishes and well-being mean more than yours. It's an extremely difficult situation to live with and yet still treat your husband with respect, dignity, and to continue to meet his needs. Especially difficult to meet those needs with enthusiasm and a smile.
The best you can do is just continue to be respectful and let him know, simply and with no justification, that the way he's carrying on his relationship with his daughter hurts you. Every time it hurts let him know - simply, quietly, unemotionally. Then, for goodness' sake, don't try to justify why you feel the way you do.
Yes! This is exactly what I need to be doing! Thanks for the direction!
Do you still have some more sessions with Steve?
Steve has spent in excess of his time with us on the phone. One hour sessions have turned into two twice. He said to set up a call next week. I have yet to do that as I am not sure there is any point in moving forward. I have sent Steve an email and followed up with a voice mail to ask him some questions around this. This weekend we are suppose to go out of town to see my family. I however, do not really care for him to go along at this point. He is so unloving, controlling and judgmental I don�t want to be around him.
LifetimeLearner, if you don�t mind me asking I see you made a go-at-it to save your marriage and it appears the marriage failed. Is this with the step-family situation?
He just sent me a text saying that I never gave him an answer if he and SD11 could go have dinner with SD21 tonight. I'm not his freaking mom!!!
I'm going to respond with this 'I have shared my feelings. My perspective is not understood. Sharing my feelings has resulted in selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts. Negotiation is shut down.'
Need your help..... if i don't have to justify my feelings how does he gain my perspective?
His response. 'Then I will go' 'And btw.... my perspective is not understood either and it has resulted in selfish demands and disrespectful judgements as well.'
He just sent me a text saying that I never gave him an answer if he and SD11 could go have dinner with SD21 tonight. I'm not his freaking mom!!!
This is why "how would you feel if I...?" is the way to go. I'm guessing you feel that you are in a position of either stuffing your feelings or being the bad guy for saying no. Maybe you could respond with something like "of course you can go, but that will withdraw love bank units if you do."
What I mean by justifying your feelings is that if you get into a discussion about why this hurts you, that leaves it open for arguments against your reasons such that you get reasoned to ignore your feelings right along with him, and in the end it won't really work to change your feelings.
The biggest problem in my situation wasn't step children, although who was highest priority between them and their children and me was a big issue. It just wasn't the only big issue.
[quote=wipedout] What I mean by justifying your feelings is that if you get into a discussion about why this hurts you, that leaves it open for arguments against your reasons such that you get reasoned to ignore your feelings right along with him, and in the end it won't really work to change your feelings.
Ok, I would love not to have to justify why I feel the way I do. When he tries to get my perspective, what do I share? Isn't getting my perspective understanding how I'm feeling and what causes me to feel that way? In the moment it may seem like it is about SD21 but in reality it is about the SDs and DJs of H around so many issues.
His response. 'Then I will go' 'And btw.... my perspective is not understood either and it has resulted in selfish demands and disrespectful judgements as well.'
When he tries to get my perspective, what do I share? Isn't getting my perspective understanding how I'm feeling and what causes me to feel that way?
Explain the cause? Nope.
You go too far in explaining your perspective of why you�re hurt. Which opens you up to you committing LBs like DJs and possibly a SD. As mentioned previously it allows him to convince you you are wrong for feeling what you feel.
The best option for you is to keep it simple. Explain you are hurting yes but only explaining that you don�t feel you�re his #1 priority.
"I feel hurt. It feels, to me, like you put your daughter before me and that hurts.
I would love to negotiate a solution that we can both be happy with. I am not going to demand you do anything. We need to find a win/win here.".
�You shouldn�t feel that way!�.
�I feel what I feel. Please don�t tell me how I should feel by your actions. That is a DJ. �
Instead you tried to convince him he was selfish and he just turned it back around on you.
I take it your H has never read nor understands the different types of resentments (Type A and B).
WO, it seems you are demanding that your H make this M his priority. In this case he seems to have a different perspective on what�s most important. You can�t insist he make you be the priority. It would be nice if you could but demands don�t work. You can only explain to him how you�re hurt by his actions. He has to want to make you the priority.
Telling him to make you the priority is going to be thrown back in your face as a selfish demand. At least until he understands the concept of Resentment Type A and B. If he never learns that and accepts that as a healthy marriage principle you�ll have your hands full.
Right no your best option, IMHO, is to find a way to negotiate with him. Once he realizes he can successfully negotiate a win/win solution he may more open to learn and implement what to do with resentment Types A and B.
In some cases, Dr. Harley recommends discussions go no further than "I felt disrespected when you said that" "Why?" "I just felt it was disrespectful." "Yes, but why?" "Oh, I just felt it was disrespectful."
Explain the cause? Nope.
You go too far in explaining your perspective of why you�re hurt. Which opens you up to you committing LBs like DJs and possibly a SD. As mentioned previously it allows him to convince you you are wrong for feeling what you feel.
Makes sense! Thanks for the renotification!
The best option for you is to keep it simple. Explain you are hurting yes but only explaining that you don�t feel you�re his #1 priority.
"I feel hurt. It feels, to me, like you put your daughter before me and that hurts.
I would love to negotiate a solution that we can both be happy with. I am not going to demand you do anything. We need to find a win/win here.".
�You shouldn�t feel that way!�.
�I feel what I feel. Please don�t tell me how I should feel by your actions. That is a DJ. �
Instead you tried to convince him he was selfish and he just turned it back around on you.
I have shared with him that I do not feel important. He tells me it is not a competition. I tell him I know that, but I still don't feel important. He keeps bringing it back to that it is a competition.
I take it your H has never read nor understands the different types of resentments (Type A and B).
Yes he has and Steve has also spoken to him about it. H has a strong stance that his resentment is far worse in the end. Steve asked him if he saw how one sided he was and H said yes. Steve changed the subject.
WO, it seems you are demanding that your H make this M his priority. In this case he seems to have a different perspective on what�s most important. You can�t insist he make you be the priority. It would be nice if you could but demands don�t work. You can only explain to him how you�re hurt by his actions. He has to want to make you the priority.
Telling him to make you the priority is going to be thrown back in your face as a selfish demand. At least until he understands the concept of Resentment Type A and B. If he never learns that and accepts that as a healthy marriage principle you�ll have your hands full.
Right no your best option, IMHO, is to find a way to negotiate with him. Once he realizes he can successfully negotiate a win/win solution he may more open to learn and implement what to do with resentment Types A and B.
I can see your view on how I am having a SD trying to get him to see that he should make M his priority. Maybe my canned response should be I hurt because I don't feel like I am your #1 priority but then again I have done that and he tells me it is not a competition.
To piggy back on the others, you don't have to justify why you feel the way it's a dive u do. Your feelings are your feelings. However you can't also expect him to understand or feel certain ways. He/you, however, should respect the way you feel the way you do.
For example, my wife has opinions and feelings that I don't always agree with and visa versa. It's not our job to educate our spouse or to try and change their feelings. It is our job to understand they feel a certain way and it is what it is. So if I do, act, or say something that offends my wife, then it is my job not to repeat the offensive behavior regardless if I agree with her or not.
The way my wife and I handle things is I will say, "it really upset me when you... " then, I will acknowledge the offensive behavior and apologize for it and not repeat it.
if there is something that I want to do, I will ask her "would it be OK with you if I... " If she's okay with it, she'll say yes. If not, then she'll say no and I'll leave it at that.
This whole argument needs to be cast in a different light besides "make our marriage a priority."
Asking your spouse to NOT do something that would hurt you is not a selfish demand.
He just sent me a text saying that I never gave him an answer if he and SD11 could go have dinner with SD21 tonight. I'm not his freaking mom!!!
"I am not enthusiastic about that. I am willing to negotiate if we follow the Four Guidelines for Negotiation."
I have shared with him that I do not feel important. He tells me it is not a competition. I tell him I know that, but I still don't feel important. He keeps bringing it back to that it is a competition.
Better response (it takes out the whole "make marriage a priority" debate out, as markos suggested):
"Are you willing to do what it takes to protect me?"
I can see your view on how I am having a SD trying to get him to see that he should make M his priority. Maybe my canned response should be I hurt because I don't feel like I am your #1 priority but then again I have done that and he tells me it is not a competition. dontknow
It is not a selfish demand, however, to just say "I am not enthusiastic about you having dinner with SD21. I am willing to negotiate if we follow the Four Guidelines for Negotiation."
I have shared with him that I do not feel important. He tells me it is not a competition. I tell him I know that, but I still don't feel important. He keeps bringing it back to that it is a competition.
Dr. Harley has stated that if there is anything in marriage which is not subjected to the policy of joint agreement, then that subject will ultimately wreck the marriage.
As long as he continues to see his daughter over your objections, you will probably continue to feel slighted. The reason is your husband is being thoughtless about this.
If it were me, I would tell your husband something like this:
"I'm not enthusiastic about either of us seeing her until she apologizes to me and gives us some assurance it won't happen again. Even then, I will only see her on the condition that we leave immediately if I feel she is disrespectful to me again. And I'm not enthusiastic about you seeing her alone or having private conversations with her; only with me."
One day you might be able to let him know why something he did or is doing hurts you, but it seems that at this point it is not helping. You see what happened here?
You: How you carry on your relationship with your daughter hurts me.
Him: Why?
You: Because I don't feel like your number one priority.
Him: It's not a competition.
He answered your why of your feelings (thereby dismissing them) rather than addressing how he could change his behavior in response to your feelings.
I'm not all that good at seeing DJs, but this answer of "it's not a competition" feels like one to me. Maybe it's because it's an assumption that you think it is even when you didn't say that? I don't know. I would love for someone to enlighten me on that, but I don't want to t/j, either.
The reason I suggested you say something like sure he could go but it will withdraw love units is because he doesn't appear to be willing to negotiate. It also leaves it at information you are providing rather than permission.
However, I really like the other suggestions you got, too. Whatever nondemanding way you can let him know the answer to "how would you feel, WO, if I ...?" even if he doesn't ask it.
I'm not all that good at seeing DJs, but this answer of "it's not a competition" feels like one to me.
It is. It's assuming what she is thinking or feeling. It's belittling. It's educating.
The reason I suggested you say something like sure he could go but it will withdraw love units is because he doesn't appear to be willing to negotiate. It also leaves it at information you are providing rather than permission.
It's always a good idea to let your spouse know that you are not enthusiastic when you feel that way. I see that with your suggestion you are trying to just provide information. But, by saying "Sure, you can go, but you are going to withdraw love units ..." it can come across as very disrespectful. It can be seen as "I'll let you go, but you're going to pay ..."
By simply saying "I'm not enthusiastic, but I'm willing to negotiate," You inform your spouse of your feelings (I don't like this plan) and you also inform your spouse that you do not want to leave them feeling disappointed (I'm willing to negotiate to find a solution that will make us both happy -- not just me, but you too).
Now, he may go ahead and do whatever it is you are not enthusiastic about. You can't stop him. But he will do so knowing that you were not enthusiastic, meaning he has trampled all over your feelings and withdrawn love units. But it's not because YOU were unwilling to find a solution.
I'm not all that good at seeing DJs, but this answer of "it's not a competition" feels like one to me.
It is. It's assuming what she is thinking or feeling. It's belittling. It's educating.
Thank you for helping me!
The reason I suggested you say something like sure he could go but it will withdraw love units is because he doesn't appear to be willing to negotiate. It also leaves it at information you are providing rather than permission.
It's always a good idea to let your spouse know that you are not enthusiastic when you feel that way. I see that with your suggestion you are trying to just provide information. But, by saying "Sure, you can go, but you are going to withdraw love units ..." it can come across as very disrespectful. It can be seen as "I'll let you go, but you're going to pay ..."
By simply saying "I'm not enthusiastic, but I'm willing to negotiate," You inform your spouse of your feelings (I don't like this plan) and you also inform your spouse that you do not want to leave them feeling disappointed (I'm willing to negotiate to find a solution that will make us both happy -- not just me, but you too).
Now, he may go ahead and do whatever it is you are not enthusiastic about. You can't stop him. But he will do so knowing that you were not enthusiastic, meaning he has trampled all over your feelings and withdrawn love units. But it's not because YOU were unwilling to find a solution.
Okay, I can see how that might be taken as a threat.
Really the only thing you can say is "I'm not enthusiastic about that. I'm willing to negotiate."
When is your next session with Steve?
It's time you and your husband learned how to negotiate this issue. From what I'm reading, this is what I get about the relationship with the daughter:
1. She's a bully. He feels like he has to appease her in order to get her attention and have a relationship with her.
2. She's a threat to your relationship. She sees herself as a competitor with you for her dad. You see it. He doesn't. It is, in fact, a competition - TO HER.
3. In order for you to be enthusiastic, he has to put YOU first in that relationship with her. He has to stand up to her, when she's rude, dismissive, or otherwise excluding you from activities that involve the rest of YOUR family.
4. He has to let her know in no uncertain terms that he values and will protect the marriage and if her behavior is abusive of those values, he's willing to go without contact with her until she's respectful.
Am I on target?
More thoughts:
If he were to follow MB on this, his posture to his previous abuse would be to protect you from himself and all other abusers he's tolerated abusing you in the past. He'd turn up his sensitivity to anything that has a whiff of abuse and eliminate it.
I've frequently said that he/she who cares the least about a relationship has the most power.
In this case, the daughter has the most power because she's totally willing to cut him out of her life if he doesn't play this HER way.
That's abusive. Not a loving daughter who values a relationship with her dad.
Until he's willing to let her have her tantrum and still maintain his own power and value to her, then he is worthless to you as well.
It might as well be abuse by proxy if he's willing to tolerate her abusing you.
Wiped,
You really are going to have to ask yourself how much you're going to put into this? Based on what you've described your H isn't behaving in a way that will ever make for a loving, happy M. How much more of this can you tolerate? All good questions you must ask yourself.
It would be nice if your H were to see the light and do the things that we see as important. However you can only control yourself so you need to set forth a plan, a timeline, of what you're going to do. How much more of this are you going to take? What if he never changes his ways?
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
How did things work out? Did you tell him that you weren't enthusiastic, but you were willing to negotiate?
To piggy back on the others, you don't have to justify why you feel the way it's a dive u do. Your feelings are your feelings. However you can't also expect him to understand or feel certain ways. He/you, however, should respect the way you feel the way you do.
For example, my wife has opinions and feelings that I don't always agree with and visa versa. It's not our job to educate our spouse or to try and change their feelings. It is our job to understand they feel a certain way and it is what it is. So if I do, act, or say something that offends my wife, then it is my job not to repeat the offensive behavior regardless if I agree with her or not.
This leads me down thoughts that we can �control� our spouse with our feelings. I believe that is how my husband thinks I control him. In sharing LBs, he shared that it is not so much as demands in words but in my actions. Although I have realized the way I carry myself with the hurt is just as important for me to address, I feel, none-the-less that I can�t feel the way I feel. I am trying to not wear my feelings on my sleeve and I need to share my actual feelings as they boil inside me. I do not feel safe in doing so as I feel he has DJs.
For example, I cooked dinner (which I don�t normally do because of the conflict at home). In the past H has told me that if one cooks dinner the other should clean up. This was the start of conflict as he was demanding me to clean up after his tornado cooking mess when he cooked. After dinner I asked DD13 to clean up my plate, Hs plate and her plate. I asked DD12 to clean up her plate. They were cleaning up some of the other dishes without being asked. That night H told me that they didn�t finish cleaning up. I told him I did not want them to be awaken to clean it up as it had been an hour after they went to bed. (He has wanted me to do this before) He agreed. He asked them in the morning why they didn�t finish cleaning up and told them they needed to clean it up before school. When he told me I repeated what I thought was his perspective. He asked me my perspective and I told him I know I didn�t ask them to clean up all the dishes, that it was only the plates. I said I would assume then that he told them. He said he didn�t, then became mad and said that they should expect to clean up the whole mess. Then he told me that he felt like I was trying to make excuses for them. That made me withdrawal and I had the girls clean up. I understand I am enabling his behavior. How do I become stronger to stand up for myself? To me he clearly had SDs by expecting it to be done without being told and DJs by telling me I was making excuses for them.
I have been reading the LB book and it never seems like we were much at an intimacy level. We started with conflict right after the wedding. I don�t do conflict well, I withdrawal 95% of the time. 95% of the time, I don�t call him names or fight for my feelings. I don�t do things to him to get revenge or avenge my taker, I withdrawal. The complaints he has toward me are that I carry a dark cloud around, my manners at restaurants are unlikable, I don�t clean up after myself or follow through with projects and other things I do, I deflect conversations, �ridicule his point of view saying it is �control��, I disregard his opinion about disciplining my children.
Asking your spouse to NOT do something that would hurt you is not a selfish demand.
I agree with the concept. However, the flip side says that in essence, H can tell me not to have storm clouds, clean up after myself, get after my kids with more anger, eat properly at restaurants, etc. I�m not sure asking them to not do it is the correct path, rather telling them how we feel and letting them choose if they want to continue to hurt.
"I am not enthusiastic about that. I am willing to negotiate if we follow the Four Guidelines for Negotiation." Better response (it takes out the whole "make marriage a priority" debate out, as markos suggested):
"Are you willing to do what it takes to protect me?"
Thanks! I am finding many quotes that I need to carry around on a sheet of paper to recite until they become a part of my everyday thinking.
Dr. Harley has stated that if there is anything in marriage which is not subjected to the policy of joint agreement, then that subject will ultimately wreck the marriage.
As long as he continues to see his daughter over your objections, you will probably continue to feel slighted. The reason is your husband is being thoughtless about this.
Yes, and it is preventing another love units he tries to deposit to be only added at a fraction of their value.
If it were me, I would tell your husband something like this:
"I'm not enthusiastic about either of us seeing her until she apologizes to me and gives us some assurance it won't happen again. Even then, I will only see her on the condition that we leave immediately if I feel she is disrespectful to me again. And I'm not enthusiastic about you seeing her alone or having private conversations with her; only with me."
I have tried something similar from a previous comment. While he showed great restraint with AOs, he was very distant for days and angry on the call early last week because of it. We had to call Steve again on Thursday because I couldn�t imagine going out of town as planned with H like that. Steve talked to us separately and the weekend was ok. Now it is back to a stressful status.
One day you might be able to let him know why something he did or is doing hurts you, but it seems that at this point it is not helping. You see what happened here?
You: How you carry on your relationship with your daughter hurts me.
Him: Why?
You: Because I don't feel like your number one priority.
Him: It's not a competition.
He answered your why of your feelings (thereby dismissing them) rather than addressing how he could change his behavior in response to your feelings.
You have most of it right. I told him that I didn�t haven enthusiastic agreement about SD21 being in our lives at the current moment. He asked why and it went from there.
I'm not all that good at seeing DJs, but this answer of "it's not a competition" feels like one to me. Maybe it's because it's an assumption that you think it is even when you didn't say that? I don't know. I would love for someone to enlighten me on that, but I don't want to t/j, either.
I agree that it is a DJ. This is how most conflicts stop. He doesn�t seem to be able to identify that he is even doing them. I believe he feels like they are his feelings so it is valid to say.
It's always a good idea to let your spouse know that you are not enthusiastic when you feel that way. I see that with your suggestion you are trying to just provide information. But, by saying "Sure, you can go, but you are going to withdraw love units ..." it can come across as very disrespectful. It can be seen as "I'll let you go, but you're going to pay ..."
By simply saying "I'm not enthusiastic, but I'm willing to negotiate," You inform your spouse of your feelings (I don't like this plan) and you also inform your spouse that you do not want to leave them feeling disappointed (I'm willing to negotiate to find a solution that will make us both happy -- not just me, but you too).
Now, he may go ahead and do whatever it is you are not enthusiastic about. You can't stop him. But he will do so knowing that you were not enthusiastic, meaning he has trampled all over your feelings and withdrawn love units. But it's not because YOU were unwilling to find a solution.
Completely agree!
Really the only thing you can say is "I'm not enthusiastic about that. I'm willing to negotiate."
I agree this is what should be said. My challenge is to step up and say it! 
When is your next session with Steve?
We talked to him twice last week. Nothing else is scheduled. We have a lot of homework and no time to do it. He gave us a grocery store exercise which we modified to do virtually. We are only half way through it. I need to come up with a plan on how I am going to meet Hs ENs and we need to finish sharing our ENs (we only shared 5 so far). We have tried to keep the thoughts of negotiation in our minds the whole weekend and I even negotiated for my parents to practice (my mom is now going to get a motorcycle)
It's time you and your husband learned how to negotiate this issue. From what I'm reading, this is what I get about the relationship with the daughter:
1. She's a bully. He feels like he has to appease her in order to get her attention and have a relationship with her.
2. She's a threat to your relationship. She sees herself as a competitor with you for her dad. You see it. He doesn't. It is, in fact, a competition - TO HER.
3. In order for you to be enthusiastic, he has to put YOU first in that relationship with her. He has to stand up to her, when she's rude, dismissive, or otherwise excluding you from activities that involve the rest of YOUR family.
4. He has to let her know in no uncertain terms that he values and will protect the marriage and if her behavior is abusive of those values, he's willing to go without contact with her until she's respectful.
Am I on target?
YES!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!
More thoughts:
If he were to follow MB on this, his posture to his previous abuse would be to protect you from himself and all other abusers he's tolerated abusing you in the past. He'd turn up his sensitivity to anything that has a whiff of abuse and eliminate it.
I've frequently said that he/she who cares the least about a relationship has the most power.
In this case, the daughter has the most power because she's totally willing to cut him out of her life if he doesn't play this HER way.
That's abusive. Not a loving daughter who values a relationship with her dad.
Until he's willing to let her have her tantrum and still maintain his own power and value to her, then he is worthless to you as well.
It might as well be abuse by proxy if he's willing to tolerate her abusing you.
This is exactly what I have been trying to get him to understand. He doesn�t want to see it and now he seems to view me as a threat to his relationship with his daughter even though she is the one that controls it.
Wiped,
You really are going to have to ask yourself how much you're going to put into this? Based on what you've described your H isn't behaving in a way that will ever make for a loving, happy M. How much more of this can you tolerate? All good questions you must ask yourself.
It would be nice if your H were to see the light and do the things that we see as important. However you can only control yourself so you need to set forth a plan, a timeline, of what you're going to do. How much more of this are you going to take? What if he never changes his ways?
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Of course this is all one sided. I have many faults of my own. I know there are things I need to change myself. I do not want him to hurt and want to make choices that don�t hurt him, yet I feel controlled because I feel that way. �how much more� is a question I ask myself daily. I want to ensure that I do my part. I want him to feel loved. Should it come to that point and still feel as bad as I do now, I will know that I have done all that is in my power, but until then, one day at a time, sometimes hours at a time.
How did things work out? Did you tell him that you weren't enthusiastic, but you were willing to negotiate?
I did tell him I wasn�t enthusiastic, I never said I was willing to negotiate. He planned to go anyway. Karma got him in the end and he had to work late so he missed going.
Overall the weekend went ok, thanks to a Thursday call with Steve. Steve talked to us individually about our parts and reminded me at Hs work at eliminating AOs. I asked him if there was anything I did over the weekend that hurt him and he gave me one thing which was that I fell asleep on him at my gmas where he felt like he had to fend for himself with communicating to my redneck family. I told him I was sorry, I had no idea that hurt him. Now we are back to status quo. Living day to day. I am consciously making efforts to provide affection as he needs it. This makes it really hard to do when I don�t love him romantically.
I just got a text from H. He is taking tomorrow off to go to an awards event in the morning for SD11 and spending the rest of the day with SD21. It was not formed in any sort of way to ask or get my perspective.
It is times like this that makes it so hard to do my part. There is no doubt in my mind that he knows it hurts me. This may be a DJ on my part but it is very clear that the subject of SD21 is a source of hurt.
Sharing my feelings of unenthusiastic agreement on this and telling him I am willing to negotiate, I feel, is not the right course of action as this is such a heated topic. I am not sure what I would negotiate as I just want her out of our lives right now from all the hurt. I am currently having blinder problems to finding solutions as my taker is in hyper mode. My taker wants me to run away from the pain though.
I hurt in so many ways. She is important enough to take vacation time to spend time with her. She is important enough to cater to her needs to have a relationship with her. He is happy with her. He is not judging of her. He doesn�t demand from her. The pain from all this is so indescribable.
What is it about his perspective that I am missing? He wants to have a relationship with her. He wants to see her when he wants to. He wants to see and have a relationship with the grandkids. He doesn�t want me in the way of having a relationship with her. It is not a competition. He doesn�t like how she shuts him out when she doesn�t get her way. He loves me like a wife and he loves her like a daughter.
Where is the win-win for both him and you?
Thinking out loud for a few possibilities to consider:
1. He takes you for granted. He thinks regardless what he does, you will be there.
2. He doesn't think there is a win-win so he avoids the negotiation.
What is key is to demonstrate that the POJA will provide him (and you) with a better position than he finds himself now. Or avoids the situation getting worse.
If you cannot convince him that the POJA will provide him with a better situation than he has now or will have if he continues the current behavior, there is no incentive for him to consider that approach.
I believe that in the aggregate, people will behave rationally. We may not share their rationale, but they will make the choice that benefits them.
Putting yourself in his shoes, what benefit does he get if he engages in the POJA. It has to be something that HE values, not what you think he should value or what you value.
If he thinks he will lose by engaging in the POJA, he will not we a willing participant. If he thinks he has nothing to lose by engaging in his current behavior, why would he change?
The POJA has to be the path with the most upside and the least downside. If it is a penalty box, why would he choose it?
I just got a text from H. He is taking tomorrow off to go to an awards event in the morning for SD11 and spending the rest of the day with SD21. It was not formed in any sort of way to ask or get my perspective.
Tell him you are not enthusiastic. You do your marriage no favor by keeping this to yourself.
DD12 has done her three private lessons with the package we purchased. DD13 is interested in getting assistance. How would you feel about having another lesson for her and having a first one with DD13?
BFF is trying to finalize plans for 6/8 for Holiday World. She wants to know if we want to stay the night vs having to drive both ways in one day. How would you feel about me staying overnight on the 8th and heading back on the 9th? I would expect to pay for half of the room as we would all stay in one room to save money.
Mom asked me to pick up her and her friends on 6/7 and take them home. They are coming back from a bus trip up north and dad will be on a motorcycle ride with the chapter. I believe I asked you how you felt about that but am not sure where we stood on a response. How would you feel if I picked them up and took them home on 6/7?
Our homework was to go to the store and �shop� for 20 items. We were able to accomplish part of the task, I believe we made it through four items. How would you feel about finishing up this assignment this evening?
Our homework was also to finish sharing our ENs. How would you feel about finishing up this assignment this evening?
I am ok with getting DD12 and DD13 more lessons.
I am ok with you spending the night at Holiday World. In fact, I was going to suggest that so you would have more time at the park.
I am ok with you picking your mom up on the north side on the 7th.
I would love to go over our shopping list and ENs this evening.
FYI, forgot to tell you, SD11 5th grade send-off is this afternoon. I am going to go around 5 as is BM(bio-mom). Also, her awards ceremony is in the morning. I am taking a vacation day and going to that and then spending the rest of the day with SD21
I see you sent me some texts. How would you feel about me going to the send off and awards?
Here are my thoughts on that. I don't have any problems with the thought of you going and think it is very nice that you want to be there for SD11. I have to say that my anxiety level about you going is sky rocketing. My chest is heavy and hurts and I my head is spinning just writing this email. This sucks because I am sure that SD21 will be there and the stress of it all is killing me. Those are my feelings.
Please help me with a response! There are two things I believe he is aware of: 1. That telling me not to go will hurt my feelings and 2. That SD21 will be ticked that I am there.
Her past behavior is to shut him out when she doesn't get her way so I'm sure he is scared she will blow a gasket.
I am really indifferent to going. I don't care to bond at all with SD11 as SD21 is my future with her and who wants to set themselves up for that?!? (OK, that is purely my hurt feelings talking.) I want to go because I should be able to! I shouldn't have to feel like I need to cater to SD21.
I want to have a relationship with both girls but the pain keeps me from even wanting to try. The pain of H catering to SD21 is very painful as well.
How can I find a solution that will fit both of our needs? He doesn't want me around to cause conflict. I feel that I'm not important, loved, cared for, etc.
I want to make the right decision on my responses to not enable his behavior but also take into account his feelings of anxiety.
I will responde to him stating he is going to spend half his vacation day with SD21 that I do not have enthusiastic agreement with him going. Do I further that by telling him I would like to work toward a compromise?
One might think that a compromise would be for me to join him. I would love that but he won't because SD21 controls him. She will shut him out of her life. Please provide thoughts on what you might see as brainstorming ideas for this to be a win-win?????!!!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm at a loss.
Ask him why he feels such anxiety. Then brainstorm with him to find an alternative.
If he doesn't mind having you there for SD11, then the problem is not with you going, but with SD21, right? Ask HIM why he feels that anxiety.
I asked him what can I do to help his anxiety and he said he didn't know. I'm asking him now if he wants me to go and why is he feeling anxiety.
I can tell you it is because of SD21. The problem is with her. How do you brainstorm around that?
You put all the possible solutions on the table. That would include, but not be limited to him standing up to SD21 and saying he will not be emotionally bullied by his own child.
If he wants it all, a good marriage and a healthy relationship with his daughter, he just may need to step up his game and stand up to her.
From my corner of the internet, it looks like he's operating out of fear. He appears to have more fear of losing her than losing you. So he appeases her and does the bare minimum to get by with you.
I can tell you it is because of SD21. The problem is with her. How do you brainstorm around that?
Is it because she will say something tacky or cause a scene?
Markos and I have had similar problems with my inlaws. I'm okay with being around them now, but we have boundaries set up. If they cross the boundary, we will simply get up and leave.
Or there could be a simple phrase for him to tell her if she starts getting mean ... "Please do not talk to/about my wife that way." Repeat as necessary.
These are a few options. There could be others. You need to discuss it and find out what will work for both of you.
She will not say anything tacky. She is just put out that I am involved with her dad. She has made up stories in her head as to why she doesn't like me. She thinks that her son loves me more than her so she cut me off. She thinks that I override her authority but her dad tells her to get up and get her kid if she doesn't want him to go upstairs.
H will say that I haven't done anything wrong. That it is SD21 that has the problems.
Basically, I believe H has stood up to her sometimes and she sees that I am the reason so I am a threat to their relationship. She will just not like that I am there and her son will see me and want to be with 'MiMi'.
He won't like that I suggest he stand up to his daughter. I have thought all along that is what he needs to do but he knows she will throw a tantrum and it hurts to be shut out of the grandkids lives. (Trust me, i know because it still is that way for me)
from H
My perspective (off the top of my head):
� I think you have the right to go. You are her step-mom and you are there to support her.
� I feel that if you are there and SD21 is there with the kids, GS2(grandson) will want to come see you and I will have to deal with her not wanting you there or having anything to do with GS2 and BM will side with her. It will cause me huge amounts of stress on me and the situation.
� I feel the stress of the situation may detract from SD11's celebration.
� I feel that if you don't go, there will be huge amounts of stress at home between us.
� I feel that I am stuck in the middle again.
� I feel that I can't fix this. Only you and she can fix this.
.
� I feel that if you are there and SD21 is there with the kids, GS2(grandson) will want to come see you and I will have to deal with her not wanting you there or having anything to do with GS2 and BM will side with her. It will cause me huge amounts of stress on me and the situation.
Wow. Stress that could be relieved if he just stood up for you and the marriage.
It isn't that he values her more than you ... it's that he values the grandkid(s) more than you ... because that is what he stands to lose (her taking them away cuz she's not getting her way).
� I feel that I am stuck in the middle again.
Yep as long as he continues to put everyone else as equal priority in his life.
� I feel that I can't fix this. Only you and she can fix this.
What a cop out!
POJA a solution with him. Brainstorm a plan.
Actually, it IS the two of them who has to fix it. He can't FIX it.
But he can choose what he will and will no tolerate. He can't make SD21 like his wife, or vice versa.
I wouldn't dismiss his comment that he can't fix it. He can't. But he CAN determine what he will tolerate.
Actually, it IS the two of them who has to fix it. He can't FIX it.
But he can choose what he will and will no tolerate. He can't make SD21 like his wife, or vice versa.
I wouldn't dismiss his comment that he can't fix it. He can't. But he CAN determine what he will tolerate.
Good Point. It just sounded like he was burying his head in the sand. But I get what you're saying.
At least there is communications about the topic with out AOs.
I would love to POJA a solution. How can anything be brainstormed around him not getting cut off from the grandkids and him standing up to his daughter?
I'm lost on what step I should take next.
Good point enlightened_ex! I believe it is the two of them as well.
I want to go to her send-off and awards. Do you enthusiastically agree that I should go?
Unfortunately, no, I don't have enthustiastic agreement.
Since you are not in enthusiastic agreement I will not go. I am hurt that I will not be able to attend the send-off for ***EDIT*** with my husband.
I would like to continue to try to think of ideas for brainstorming around this issue for practice to come to a solution. How would you feel about being on a call with Steve tomorrow to help us work through tough brainstorming issues such as this?
Not tomorrow as I have plans.
His plans are to be with SD21. Nice eh?!?
At least there is communications about the topic with out AOs.
Steve continues to point this at me as a successful step. Although, when I respond telling him I do not have enthusiastic agreement with him spending time with her, it will be a test for him. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it.
Are you enthusiastic about him going without you? If not, he can't go either.
Are you enthusiastic about him going without you? If not, he can't go either.
Really??? That won't work for him! Kinda funny to me though. Better for him to hear that from Steve. I have a feeling he will dismiss that rule. All I can do is do my part.
And your part is to tell him that you are not enthusiastic about him going alone. You can't keep him from going, but you do need to tell him.
Here is what I said to him. 'Since you are not in enthusiastic agreement I will not go. I am hurt that I will not be able to attend the send-off for SD11 with my husband.'
How I read the exchange was that you, WO, could "easily" relieve his stress and anxiety by not going or if you somehow made his daughter like you, rather than him relieving his stress by not going without your enthusiastic agreement.
I think you did well in how you told him 1) you won't do something he's not enthusiastic about and 2) that he's hurting you by going alone (that he is doing something you're not in enthusiastic agreement with). Write down your thoughts and feelings about this so you can talk with Steve about it.
But did you tell him that you're not enthusiastic about him going alone?
WO = wipedout ... you
But did you tell him that you're not enthusiastic about him going alone?
No, I did not. Lesson learned for the next exchange as he is there right now. Can you help me with wording about him being with his daughter tomorrow?
'I am not in enthusiastic agreement for you to attend SD11 awards and be with SD21 in the afternoon without me' ???
WO = wipedout ... you
LOL says WO!
'I am not in enthusiastic agreement for you to attend SD11 awards and be with SD21 in the afternoon without me'
Perfect.
I would add "I am willing to negotiate."
Then it's up to him whether he'll do the right thing or not.
WO = wipedout ... you
LOL says WO!
Just think how confusing it would be if you'd picked a name that abbreviates to an already existing acronym around here, like BH or MB or POSOM!
OK... need your help. He will ask my why. How should I respond?
Why don't you write out why here, and we'll help you from there.
I have anger around it right now, so that is a great idea.
I am so hurt from the Independent Behavior of telling me you were spending time with SD21. I am hurt that our marriage is not a top priority. I am hurt that she is allowed to treat you and me the way she does. I am sad that I am kept away from GS2 while you continue to see them. I am hurt from the years of pushing me to be a part of her life but not standing up for me and our marriage. I am angry that you allow her to control you. I am angry that you think that this is a problem between her and I. I am angry that you have desired me to write apologies when you agree i have not done anything wrong and when she dismisses them you do not stand up for me with no tolerance.
I could go on and on.... That's a start.
I am hurt that you are not willing to practice all of the tools that MB is providing. I am hurt that I am not provided the enviornment for me to feel safe and secure. I am hurt that my feelings of hurt do not seem to matter.
"I am not enthusiastic about you having a relationship with SD21 and GS2 that does not include me."
"I am not enthusiastic about you having a relationship with SD21 and GS2 that does not include me."
So is this going to be his answer as to why? I would venture to say that I don't think I would feel this way for ever. I don't always have to be with him when my love bank has a balance but right now it is needed.
Also, he is now home and I have been as pleasent as can be as his second LB is selfish demands which he says is not so much my words but my actions. Like I am in the dumps when I don't get my way. Which from my point of view, I'm hurt but it how I carry that hurt effects him in a negative way so I will steer away from it.
So I was very bubbly and kind. He is very distant and in a bad mood, yet he wanted to go with me to the ball diamonds. He changed the subject when I asked him what was wrong which is what he complains of me doing when I am hurt. I have not stated the above yet. I have only shared with him that since he was not in enthusiastic agreement i would not attend and that i was hurt.
How in the world could I have done something to hurt him? Just for the fact that I am hurt? I don't think I did any SDs or DJs. All that I have done is what has been told to you here. Do you see why he is hurt?
Should I give him time to work though his feelings? At this point, I feel he is the one creating the stress in our evening.
I of course do not like to see him hurting. It hurts me too. Have you seen anything I have said that would hurt him? I'm second guessing myself here.
Stupid head!
I apologize if I made it sound like he should be able to go by himself. I was just saying that I thought you did well in being clear and calm. He needs to hear that you are not in agreement with him going without you (tomorrow, right?) before it happens. Did he tell you on this one why he didn't want you with him, or is this the same thing the email exchange was about? I don't know how risky this is, but if you can't negotiate a way for you two to be together tomorrow, then go with him and call it recreational companionship.
So is this going to be his answer as to why? I would venture to say that I don't think I would feel this way for ever. I don't always have to be with him when my love bank has a balance but right now it is needed.
If that is how you feel
now, then that is your answer. That's what I gathered from your list of complaints that you posted.
Interesting show for you to listen to:
October 05, 2011
How I read the exchange was that you, WO, could "easily" relieve his stress and anxiety by not going or if you somehow made his daughter like you, rather than him relieving his stress by not going without your enthusiastic agreement.
I think you did well in how you told him 1) you won't do something he's not enthusiastic about and 2) that he's hurting you by going alone (that he is doing something you're not in enthusiastic agreement with). Write down your thoughts and feelings about this so you can talk with Steve about it.
**********************************************************************************
I apologize if I made it sound like he should be able to go by himself. I was just saying that I thought you did well in being clear and calm. He needs to hear that you are not in agreement with him going without you (tomorrow, right?) before it happens. Did he tell you on this one why he didn't want you with him, or is this the same thing the email exchange was about? I don't know how risky this is, but if you can't negotiate a way for you two to be together tomorrow, then go with him and call it recreational companionship.
I didn�t take it that way. Ultimately I don�t have control over his actions. What you state is exactly correct. I do feel he thinks I can easily relieve his stress and anxiety by not going or if I would do what I could to make her like me. That would be much easier to do if I hadn't gotten my emotions wrapped up in caring about her or GS2.
He blames his ex on many things. SD21 blames others. I guess I shouldn't expect otherwise about me. H has said in the past that SD21 is the common denominator.
I talked to a friend today who introduced us 5 years ago who knew his ex when they were married. She was not surprised at what is going on. She was hoping for different. I asked her if his ex is really as crazy as everyone makes her out to be. She told me that she was only like that in the end. 18 years of this kind of behavior seems like it would do that to a person.
So is this going to be his answer as to why? I would venture to say that I don't think I would feel this way for ever. I don't always have to be with him when my love bank has a balance but right now it is needed.
If that is how you feel
now, then that is your answer. That's what I gathered from your list of complaints that you posted.
It is how I feel now. Everyone has been spot on with what's going on. Thanks for the link. I will listen to it.
H just told me he was not in a place tonight to talk about the rest of our ENs and the shopping homework.
I am fine with that but want to run away from being in this enviornment.
Just wanted to give you a virtual
When's your next session with Steve? Soon, I hope.
Thanks. I needed one. It isn't scheduled yet. I asked about tomorrow and H said he had plans. Its going to be a crappy weekend.
I hurt so bad on top of the pain from earlier. He won't even touch me in bed. What is wrong with me? Am I that horrible of a person? I'm downstairs on the couch bawling my eyes out.
I don't think you can emotionally take much more of this, hon.
Please, for your health, reconsider a separation. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of your marriage.
When to Call it Quits, Part 1When to Call it Quits, Part 2
I was just skimming back over your thread and am I correct that you had already completed 4 sessions with SH before the beginning of May?
I agree with Prisca: finish your preparations for a separation. At least you'll have some time to think about solidifying your plan while he's gone. I think it's an important thing that he put off any negotiation efforts about the plans for today and this weekend until after the time has passed.
I am sorry you felt so bad last night. I sympathize with how you feel and want to let you know that you are not defective, horrible, nor have anything wrong with you.
Thanks for the hug Prisca.
I was just skimming back over your thread and am I correct that you had already completed 4 sessions with SH before the beginning of May?
I'm not sure. I know there was one on 4/8. I think we have had a total of 8 calls thus far.
I agree with Prisca: finish your preparations for a separation. At least you'll have some time to think about solidifying your plan while he's gone. I think it's an important thing that he put off any negotiation efforts about the plans for today and this weekend until after the time has passed.
I didn't send him the message about my lack of agreement for today. I did send an email to Steve and left a message with him that I need a quick talk to get some direction for this weekend. If he says I should separate than I will. Not that everyones opinion on here isn't good, Steve has personally talked to DH and can see both sides where you are only getting my side of the story.
I am sorry you felt so bad last night. I sympathize with how you feel and want to let you know that you are not defective, horrible, nor have anything wrong with you.
Thanks! I already suffer from depression so medication helps stop the spiral thoughts most of the time. Times like this it is harder to deal with.
So, how have you been doing? How did everything go?
So, how have you been doing? How did everything go?
Thanks for checking. I talked to Steve beiefly Friday. He suggested I not put DH in a position to have to choose between his daughter and myself. He never suggested a seperation. He continues to talk about 'coordinating our efforts'.
DH was again very much in a grumpy mood Friday night. DD12 had a sleepover and they wanted to go to the park. DH came home and I asked him if he wanted to go. He said if you want me to. I asked if he wanted to go and he said i don't care. I told him that I was leaving if he wanted to go. He came.
He spent the day with SD21 and had forgotten to get his credit card back from her when she used to pick up lunch earlier in the day. So while I was at the park he wanted to take the car to meet her to get it.
He was in a really crappy mood. I decided to ask him what was going on and he, with anger, told me that this is not going to work. That we will always have conflict. That I will always have a problem with SD21. That I don't discipline my kids when they need it.
I decided at that moment. I'm done caring if he loves me. The hurt I expierence from knowing he is responsible for creating an environment where I feel loved and he is doing little to create that. Sure he has restrained himself from yelling at me. Steve likes to hang on to that as progress.
I slept on the couch where the kids were having the sleepover. Yesterday I avoided him and told him he should go see his grandson or do something that makes him happy. I had a great evening with my family. When I came home, he was gone. I don't know where he was and he didn't get home till 10:30. I was already laying on the couch (where I slept)reading a book on kindle. He said nothing.
I refuse to sleep with a man that is giving me the cold shoulder, blames me for our problems but doesn't see that it is our problem for not resolving conflicts by completing the POJA. We only get to brainstorming and never get to a point where we agree. It seems impossible to come up with a win-win.
I am looking into finding a second job. Should I need to be on my own, I want to make sure I can put food on the table without stress. In the past he has said that if he leaves he is not coming back so I expect a seperation to be a divorce.
Right now, if worse comes to shove, I could make it work. It is the summer and the kids are out of school. This month, my kids are with me. Next month they will be with their dad. I can stay with a friend in July who could use my help anyway for a surgery she is having and my parents said we can stay with them this month if needed.
I have started writing my plan as per a homework assignment from Steve.
Emotional Needs
Admiration �
� Ensure I ask his opinion. How would you feel if? Understand his perspective and take his perspective into account.
� Back him up when he gives orders to DD12 and DD13. �What did DH tell you to do?� Say it in front of him.
� Follow through on selling items.
� Make a huge deal out of when he does something for me. Thanks I appreciate that. Thank you for taking the time to�.
� Stand up for myself
� Stern with the girls
Honesty & Openness �
� Open up dialog � Tell him about my day even if he doesn�t understand.
� Share positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life. Even if I think he won�t like it.
� Check to see if anything is going on before making concrete plans.
� Explain reasons rather than just saying I don�t want to talk about it.
Domestic Support �
� Concentrated effort to get rid of clutter.
� Pick up after myself
� Finish projects I start (change oil, clean up; paint and finish the job;
� Insist the girls clean up after themselves
Family Commitment �
� Step up parenting
Affection �
� Come down to see him when he comes home from work and be excited about the fact he is home
� Ask about his day
� Text that I am thinking about him/ email that I think about him
� When he is upset caused by the actions of ***EDIT***, show that I am concerned.
� Honest acknowledgement. I bet that hurt. Backing him up.
I have no more love for this man. I will continue to seek his input on things, meet ENs and eliminate LBs without sacrificing my own feelings in the process.
I will not yell at my kids to apease him. I will not punish them to apease him. I will continue to work on my own plan for discipline as I feel his stance is too harsh, degrading and controlling and he thinks I'm not hard enough. I want my kids to follow directions. I want my kids to complete assignments. The way I get there is the problem between us. DH was raised with an iron fist and it is black and white.
What I can use the forums help on is a current situation. DD12 struggles with keeping her mouth shut while eating. I don't feel it is really too bad but she does need improvement. DH loathes this habit. DH watches her with daggers to mess up. She sees this and feels he watches her for mistakes. She is tearful talking about how she feels like he watches her for mistakes (including times other than meal times)I think she has gotten better at meal time. There are times when she relaxes and starts doing it without notice. I politely remind her to refocus and keep her mouth shut. DH is angered because she was told to do something and she continually disobeys.
DH thinks we should provide her with consequences like making her sit at another table alone. I think that is demeaning. For the past two days I have avoided eating as a family with DH. I have enjoyed meals with my daughters in a stress free eating environment. How do I handle this week? I don't want to have meals with him and my kids due to this stress. He blames me that I don't hold her feet to the fire so by avoiding dinner with him I am not in a place where I need to hold her feet to the fire. It feels like a loose-loose situation for me. If we have dinner as a family there is tension, if we avoid meals he is angry I am avoiding his solution. Please provide your insight.
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.
That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).
I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.
That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).
I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
We have discussed ideas (brainstorming) and I am not in agreement with his ideas. I am really at a loss as to how to handle it where it will satisfy him. I do bring it up to her and try to redirect the behavior. He feels she is disobeying. What other ways are there that my blinders are preventing me to brainstorm that would apease him???
The problem is, you haven't really entered the brainstorming stage because your husband is being demanding, disrespectful and angry. You cannot brainstorm while there are lovebusters. You are on Step 1. Brainstorming is on Step 3.
Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation:1. Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
2. Identify the problem from both perspectives.
3. Brainstorm with abandon.
4. Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement -- mutual and enthusiastic agreement.
Guideline 1: Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
Most couples view negotiation as a trip to the torture chamber. That's because their efforts are usually fruitless, and they come away from the experience battered and bruised. Who wants to negotiate when you have nothing but disappointment and pain to look forward to?
So before you begin to negotiate, set some basic ground rules to make sure that you both enjoy the experience. Why? Because you repeat activities that you like, and avoid those you don't like. Since you should negotiate as often as a conflict arises, it should always be an enjoyable experience so you make it a regular part of your married life.
To be certain that you will have a pleasant and safe negotiating environment, I suggest three ground rules.
Ground Rule #1:
Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations
It's fairly easy to start discussing an issue while in a good mood. But negotiations can open a can of worms, so be prepared for negative emotional reactions. Your spouse may begin to feel uncomfortable about something you say. In fact, out of the clear blue, he or she may inform you that there will be no further discussion.
I know how upset and defensive couples can become when they first tell each other how they feel about they way they have been treated by each other. That's why I first coach them individually to prepare them for negative comments. I simply tell them what I am telling you--try to be as positive and cheerful as you can be, especially if your spouse says something that offends you.
Ground Rule #2:
Put safety first-do not make demands, show disrespect,
or become angry when you negotiate, even if your spouse
makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you
Once the cat is out of the bag and you have told each other what is bothering you or what you want, you have entered one of the most dangerous phases of negotiation. If your feelings have been hurt, you are tempted to retaliate. Your Taker is very persuasive at this point, and unless you make a special effort to resist its advice, your negotiation will turn into an argument. But if you can keep each other safe, you will be able to use your intelligence to help you make the changes you both need.
Ground Rule #3:
If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be
getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting
to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry,
stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
Just because you can't resolve a problem at a particular point in time doesn't mean you can't find an intelligent solution in the future. Don't let an impasse prevent you from giving yourself a chance to think about the issue. Let it incubate for a while, and you'll be amazed what your mind can do.
If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant. After a brief pause, your spouse may apologize and wish to return to the subject that was so upsetting. But don't go back into the minefield until it has been swept clear of mines. The mines, of course, are demands, disrespect and anger, and you must discuss how to avoid them before you return to the issue. You can't negotiate if your Takers' destructive instincts control your discussion.
I hate the chewing with your mouth open also. My son has a bad habit of it. I try and catch him every time he does it and say "Son, chew with your mouth closed please." He does get frustrated because I can sound like a broken record. He's gotten much better because we kept on him. Now there's no way I'd punish him. But when he got exasperated one time, I told him then to quit chewing with his mouth shut if he didn't like the result of chewing with his mouth shut.
Typically it was because he was taking too big of bites or taking bites before swallowing what he already had in his mouth. Since he's slowed down his eating, this has helped a lot.
The problem is, you haven't really entered the brainstorming stage because your husband is being demanding, disrespectful and angry. You cannot brainstorm while there are lovebusters. You are on Step 1. Brainstorming is on Step 3.
Ground Rule #3:
If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be
getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting
to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry,
stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
Just because you can't resolve a problem at a particular point in time doesn't mean you can't find an intelligent solution in the future. Don't let an impasse prevent you from giving yourself a chance to think about the issue. Let it incubate for a while, and you'll be amazed what your mind can do.
If your negotiation turns sour, and one of you succumbs to the temptation of the Taker with demands, disrespect or anger, end the discussion by changing the subject to something more pleasant. After a brief pause, your spouse may apologize and wish to return to the subject that was so upsetting. But don't go back into the minefield until it has been swept clear of mines. The mines, of course, are demands, disrespect and anger, and you must discuss how to avoid them before you return to the issue. You can't negotiate if your Takers' destructive instincts control your discussion.
This is where we end up. At an impasse. He is not demanding, disrespectful and angry during targeted discussions. He becomes that way when no headway is being done. I rarely have gotten an apology from 'the mines'. I seem to be the only one that apologies frequently. I make tons of mistakes
I am fine with being called out on SDs and DJs. I know I sometimes can have blinders on that prevent me from doing what I should. It is not acceptable and I need to be made aware of it. We have so many unfinished negotiations they pile up, become overwhelming and never get resolved so more rensentment builds for him. I can try to revisit them but what do I do if I don't have any ideas that are a win-win???? Stale mates do not get us anywhere but where we are right now!
I hate the chewing with your mouth open also. My son has a bad habit of it. I try and catch him every time he does it and say "Son, chew with your mouth closed please." He does get frustrated because I can sound like a broken record. He's gotten much better because we kept on him. Now there's no way I'd punish him. But when he got exasperated one time, I told him then to quit chewing with his mouth shut if he didn't like the result of chewing with his mouth shut.
Typically it was because he was taking too big of bites or taking bites before swallowing what he already had in his mouth. Since he's slowed down his eating, this has helped a lot.
Seems reasonable. I know I sound like a broken record too. I know she doesn't like me telling her over and over again but at least she knows I love her in the process. I can't say his stance is rigid, unreasonable, unloving as those are DJs but when can you call a duck a duck?
BTW.... I'm still fuming mad(see my previous posting)!!!! GRRRRRR!!!!!
I hope you didn't go have an AO at your husband.
Why did it make you feel angry that he told her to go to you? I know it's upsetting, but you can't demand for him to love your children and take care of them like they were his own. There are two separate general issues in relationships: Lovebusters and meeting needs. One can definitely make a calm stand against behavior that hurts (that is, an action that hurts, not an inaction that hurts), but trying to force them into meeting needs is a strategy that doesn't work.
Dr. Harley suggests that in blended families the biological parent does the disciplining. You could start a conversation where you could ask your husband for a list of the behavior that annoys him, with the rule that he can only state the behavior that annoys him and stop the conversation at the first demand or disrespectful judgement. For instance, if he begins to tell you that you aren't firm enough with them, stop the conversation and let him know that you only need the facts of what behavior annoys him. On your part, refrain from any judgements of how something shouldn't bother him or that he's too rigid.
Then take some time to come up with ideas and then a plan to address these annoyances and discuss these ideas with your husband. Like "I will remind my daughter to close her mouth while chewing at the moment she seems to have forgotten." However, maybe you could get his agreement that in return he would not scowl when she slips knowing that you are working on it.
I hope you didn't go have an AO at your husband.
No I didn't.
Why did it make you feel angry that he told her to go to you? I know it's upsetting, but you can't demand for him to love your children and take care of them like they were his own.
Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)
There are two separate general issues in relationships: Lovebusters and meeting needs. One can definitely make a calm stand against behavior that hurts (that is, an action that hurts, not an inaction that hurts), but trying to force them into meeting needs is a strategy that doesn't work.
Agreed. Thanks for the reminder.
Dr. Harley suggests that in blended families the biological parent does the disciplining. You could start a conversation where you could ask your husband for a list of the behavior that annoys him, with the rule that he can only state the behavior that annoys him and stop the conversation at the first demand or disrespectful judgement. For instance, if he begins to tell you that you aren't firm enough with them, stop the conversation and let him know that you only need the facts of what behavior annoys him. On your part, refrain from any judgements of how something shouldn't bother him or that he's too rigid.
Then take some time to come up with ideas and then a plan to address these annoyances and discuss these ideas with your husband. Like "I will remind my daughter to close her mouth while chewing at the moment she seems to have forgotten." However, maybe you could get his agreement that in return he would not scowl when she slips knowing that you are working on it.
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.
I just sent him a text asking how he would feel about another call with Steve. His response was that he got my text message and he was thinking about it and will get back with me.
I hope you did not have an AO. It is just as wrong for you to demand that he care for your sick child, and judging him for not doing so, as it is for him to make demands and judge you.
I think the two of you need to consider getting into the online program instead of another session with Steve. You will have direct access to Dr. Harley, as well as a coach who will keep you accountable, and I think you need it.
Your husband in particular needs to talk to Dr. Harley.
Here's a good thread.
Anger Management 101
What is the goal, to find fault with his view on this, or eliminate the annoying habit?
I can see both sides. I'm not saying he is taking an MB approved approach. He is doing what comes naturally when a repeated request goes unanswered.
I suspect from his perspective, he would say, I made a respectful request and that didn't get achieve the goal of eliminating the annoying habit, so he's escalating.
Again, not saying he's doing this right, just explaining the natural progression of how these things go.
He probably feels from his perspective he's tried it your way and the problem continues.
If you are going to sell MB, I think you have to try it the MB way AND make sure the MB achieves the desired results.
Brainstorming and negotiation are done without judgement. You don't say "that's a stupid/demeaning/mean or whatever idea." The goal isn't to judge the ideas, the goal is to solve the problem.
There are multiple problems here. He has complaints about how things go on in his home and like it or not, those issues destroy his romantic love for you.
This is compounded by his means of addressing the complaints. His AO likewise destroy romantic love.
I agree with the others that he needs to address his contribution to the problem.
Seems like there are all sorts of situations where you each are asking the other to choose.
There are so many pick her or me choices in what I've seen here. SD21 or DW, DD12 or DW and so on.
Where are the Win/Win solutions?
Maybe you need 3rd party help so that each of you can find some of those win/win solutions instead of offering up a series of win/lose scenarios?
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.
That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).
I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
We have discussed ideas (brainstorming) and I am not in agreement with his ideas. I am really at a loss as to how to handle it where it will satisfy him. I do bring it up to her and try to redirect the behavior. He feels she is disobeying. What other ways are there that my blinders are preventing me to brainstorm that would apease him???
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
I hope you did not have an AO. It is just as wrong for you to demand that he care for your sick child, and judging him for not doing so, as it is for him to make demands and judge you.
I think the two of you need to consider getting into the online program instead of another session with Steve. You will have direct access to Dr. Harley, as well as a coach who will keep you accountable, and I think you need it.
Your husband in particular needs to talk to Dr. Harley.
No AO to him. Just came here to vent with a virtual voodoo doll desire. I first wanted to go to that program but thought the phone coaching would be more impactful. It is like pulling teeth to get him to make movement. I am tried of being the force behind working toward a better marriage. I asked him, how he would feel if we had another call with Steve and he said he would get back with me. That was yesterday, I�m still waiting.
Thanks! I�m listening now.
What is the goal, to find fault with his view on this, or eliminate the annoying habit?
This is why I come here. Thanks for the accountability!
I can see both sides. I'm not saying he is taking an MB approved approach. He is doing what comes naturally when a repeated request goes unanswered.
I suspect from his perspective, he would say, I made a respectful request and that didn't get achieve the goal of eliminating the annoying habit, so he's escalating.
I agree. It is also frustrating to me that it continues.
Again, not saying he's doing this right, just explaining the natural progression of how these things go.
He probably feels from his perspective he's tried it your way and the problem continues.
Yes, I would agree. I have the perspective that it has gotten better, he disagrees.
If you are going to sell MB, I think you have to try it the MB way AND make sure the MB achieves the desired results.
Agreed
Brainstorming and negotiation are done without judgement. You don't say "that's a stupid/demeaning/mean or whatever idea." The goal isn't to judge the ideas, the goal is to solve the problem.
I agree. I have not said to him they are stupid or whatever. The thoughts are in my head. Is that even wrong? My taker says his brainstorming ideas are not in enthusiastic agreement with me.
There are multiple problems here. He has complaints about how things go on in his home and like it or not, those issues destroy his romantic love for you.
This is compounded by his means of addressing the complaints. His AO likewise destroy romantic love.
I agree with the others that he needs to address his contribution to the problem.
Seems like there are all sorts of situations where you each are asking the other to choose.
There are so many pick her or me choices in what I've seen here. SD21 or DW, DD12 or DW and so on.
Where are the Win/Win solutions?
This is what I want to find but I�m clueless.
I have to say that habit irritates me to no end, too, and I am working diligently to eliminate it in my own children.
That said, your husband has no business "watching her with daggers" and making her fear him. He has no business becoming angry -- with her for messing up, nor with you for not wanting to handle it his way. He is not negotiating. He is making a demand (follow his solution of having her eat at another table), and disrespecting you (blaming you).
I would refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation (and that means you have a say, too).
We have discussed ideas (brainstorming) and I am not in agreement with his ideas. I am really at a loss as to how to handle it where it will satisfy him. I do bring it up to her and try to redirect the behavior. He feels she is disobeying. What other ways are there that my blinders are preventing me to brainstorm that would apease him???
Maybe you need 3rd party help so that each of you can find some of those win/win solutions instead of offering up a series of win/lose scenarios?
YES!!!! A mediator of sorts! How can that be done?
Yes, I would agree he has no business �watching her with daggers� and making her fear him. I understand he is frustrated because he feels it is just as bad as it has always been. I am also frustrated sounding like a broken record. I understand they are children and need redirecting a lot. DH feels they are disobeying and have the ability to do as they are told.
How do I find a 3rd party who can help me at least brainstorm?
Counseling efforts have failed. I like this forum, but he (to my knowledge) hasn�t posted. I have pointed it out and he has agreed to not read my thread. I appreciate the straight approach to call me out on the things I control and for the support of my feelings to start with. This is the first place where I have felt the comments are not just for me to feel good but it also takes my feelings into consideration.
I have been avoiding him at dinner times. I am scared to refuse to have dinner with him as a family until he was willing to have a respectful negotiation. First, that seems like I'm demanding and to top off i expect to be blamed and told there is never going to be an agreement. It is black and white to him. She disobeys, she gets a consequence. The consequence is something that should hurt so that it is impactful on the behavior we are trying to modify.
I first wanted to go to that program but thought the phone coaching would be more impactful.
My experience: The online program was more impactful because of the direct link to Dr. Harley himself.
You will be assigned a coach who will mediate between you two, hold you accountable, and guide you through the program.
Our coach was always available by email.
First, that seems like I'm demanding
It is not demanding to refuse to enter into a situation in which you know you or your children will be emotionally abused. He is the one demanding that you handle the situation his way, and getting angry when you don't want to. There
is a solution that you both can be happy about, but you cannot negotiate to find it until he eliminates his demands, disrespect and anger.
I would like to be prepared should my husband asked me why I am sleeping on the couch. I want to make sure that my response does not have selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. I do not love him anymore, I do not want to be intimate with him and right now I struggle just to be around him. Can you please give me your insight?
...
Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)
...
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.
So, your anger was based on what you feel he should have done. It's very good that you held back on the AO because that would have turned it into a selfish demand. Dr. Harley says in "Lovebusters" that one may have 50 good reasons why a spouse should do something but that doesn't justify a selfish demand. Negotiation is the step to take.
On the second, if you two can't come to an agreement on how to address disciplining a behavior, you do nothing. That is, no discipline for that behavior. As much as you can't force him to take care of a sick child in the middle of the night, he can't force you to discipline his way. Maybe you can negotiate a trial period of you reminding her for 3 weeks and see if she doesn't develop the habit of chewing with her mouth closed.
I don't know what to tell you about the couch. I would hazard a guess that you'd be advised to go back to sleeping in the bed, but you see, what happens there is up for negotiation.
...
Agreed. I think several factors come into my feelings on that. Previous SDs for me to care for his children. He tells me that he loves my children as his own as his justification to his SD. Regardless of my feelings for SD11, I have gotten up with her to clean up puke and take care of her along with him or alone. DD12 being upset that he didn't help her when she needed him. (as he tells her he loves her)
...
Great direction. What do I do when reminding my daughter is not agreed by him? Me reminding her is not enough for him.
So, your anger was based on what you feel he should have done. It's very good that you held back on the AO because that would have turned it into a selfish demand. Dr. Harley says in "Lovebusters" that one may have 50 good reasons why a spouse should do something but that doesn't justify a selfish demand. Negotiation is the step to take.
On the second, if you two can't come to an agreement on how to address disciplining a behavior, you do nothing. That is, no discipline for that behavior. As much as you can't force him to take care of a sick child in the middle of the night, he can't force you to discipline his way. Maybe you can negotiate a trial period of you reminding her for 3 weeks and see if she doesn't develop the habit of chewing with her mouth closed.
I don't know what to tell you about the couch. I would hazard a guess that you'd be advised to go back to sleeping in the bed, but you see, what happens there is up for negotiation.
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.
So, basically, you're starting a "separation" under the same roof.
Why not just separate? It will be more effective.
What's to stop him from being demanding, disrespectful, and angry while you're on the couch.
I used to sleep on the couch. I think Markos liked it.
I will go back to the bed only after he eliminates 80 percent of his anger, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements. We are not in any position to negotiate. His DJs and SDs are out of control at this point.
So, basically, you're starting a "separation" under the same roof.
Why not just separate? It will be more effective.
What's to stop him from being demanding, disrespectful, and angry while you're on the couch.
I used to sleep on the couch. I think Markos liked it.
I see your point. I have been reading more on the site and found the following:
Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.
From what I can tell the 'separation' suggestions are revolved more around infidelity. I do see Letter#1 about an abusive husband. My husband does not insult me about sex or tell me I cannot see a counselor. He does not reject hearing the hard things thus far that Steve has shared with him. He may not fully grasp them but I don't feel he is completely rejecting them. He has taken steps to eliminate his AOs and done well. The only issue he rejects is the idea that he is hurting our marriage with his choice to continue seeing SD21 without my enthusastic agreement. He continues to blame me for the pain. This is something that I expected. Steve sees that it needs to be handled with 'kid gloves' so to speak.
I have requested his thoughts on doing the online program as you suggested. It sounds like a great way to force movement in a positive direction for both of us. Right now, I'm in a holding pattern. Yesterday, he said he would get back with me. I am trying to patiently wait.
In the meantime, I do still have issues with his DJs and SDs that he isn't capable of fully seeing right now. So the best thing I can do is to make sure I'm not returning the same to him. I need help with wording to him on another issue.
My children have been alienated from SD21s children as well as a result of being my children. They have been somewhat sheltered in the process as they just are not getting to see the step-nephew and step-niece. DD13 made a plaque for her niece and DH took it to her when he last visited her when she was out of state. SD21 contacted DD13 to say thank you. Some small conversation occured and DD13 requested a picture of her step-nephew. SD21 provided a picture with no instruction to keep it private. SD11 has tons of pictures and was told directly by SD21 not to post them on Instagram. DD13 has a private account on Instagram and had posted the picture with stating it is the nephew she never gets to see. DH found it and asked me to ask her to remove it. His rationale is that SD21 asked SD11 to not post so DD13 shouldn't also.
This seems like such a stupid issue but it is another example of the control. I have created an email to respond to his request. I have listed his shared EN of H&O as I feel he won't like what I am about to share with him.
************************************************************
Honesty & Openness �
� Share positive and negative emotional reactions to significant aspects of life. Even if I think he won�t like it.
I do not feel comfortable telling DD13 to remove the picture of [step-nephew] from Instagram. SD21 has not told her to keep the picture private. SD21 was the one to share the picture directly to her. I feel that this is an issue between DD13 and SD21.
Can you help me understand how this is different than me having his pictures on Facebook?
************************************************************
In an arguement SD21 was having to try to get her way after Christmas she demanded that we (DH and I) remove all pictures of her son from Facebook. DH refused and told her if she wanted them removed from my Facebook she would need to tell me. She sent me a message and I asked DH what he wanted me to do. He told me nothing. I didn't respond to her (which I feel made me look bad to her) but I removed the pictures without telling DH. DH is once again 'friends' with her on facebook and the pictures are not an issue between SD21 and him. This is what I'm referring to above with the question to him.
Please let me know what you think about the above message to DH.
I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.
I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.
But you don't want affection?
He is not in enthusiastic agreement that your daughter has this picture on the web. On this one, I don't see it as him being controlling. The way you presented it, it sounds like he made a request. He's asking you to handle it and you tell him to have his 21 year old daughter to handle it. It was his request, not hers.
I'm at DD13 softball game. DH is assist coach. It hurts so much to be this close to home and there is zero affection.
But you don't want affection?
I do want affection. It is my #1 EN. I am giving him his emotional needs. Ensuring I ask his opinion, follow through on selling clutter, be stern with my kids, step up my parenting, ask him about his day, check to see if anything is going on before i make plans, finish projects i start, pick up after myself and make the kids pick up after themselves. I come here to ask before I make a move because I seem to have blinders on and need help.
I feel so alone. I feel so unwanted. I feel uncared for.
He is not in enthusiastic agreement that your daughter has this picture on the web. On this one, I don't see it as him being controlling. The way you presented it, it sounds like he made a request. He's asking you to handle it and you tell him to have his 21 year old daughter to handle it. It was his request, not hers.
Hmmmm... when you put it that way. ok, i'm glad I didn't send him anything. You are right, it was his request. I guess I am still so hurt over feeling like she is a priority over me. I feel like he is trying to protect his relationship with her by looking out for her and doing things for her. He isn't protecting our relationship because I am not in enthusiastic agreement for her to be a part of our lives right now. There is a lot of resentment.
Regardless of that, why do I feel so controlled over it though? I am not in enthusiastic agreement that it be removed. SD21 never told her not to post it. DD13 site is not visible to the public. DD13 loves the little one but never gets to see him. She was sent a picture directly from SD21 and she shared it with her friends. She is hurt that she doesn't get to see him and it is her little moment to share a piece of what she can have. Seems like just because DH wants it I need to provide it for him? Doesn't feel like a win-win. Help me out here. Something doesn't seem right. Correct my thinking!
No, you're not required to do something just because he requested it. Did you ask him how he would feel if this photo of his grandson was posted in his step daughter's account?
The longer it stays there, the more love bank withdrawals are made. The more withdrawals, the less likely he will be motivated to make you and your marriage his first priority.
If removing this photo is a sacrifice to you, though, don't do it, but be sure to let your husband know this fact.
And he's not enthusiastic about NOT seeing SD21, so what is the plan to get to something you are BOTH enthusiastic about?
No, you're not required to do something just because he requested it. Did you ask him how he would feel if this photo of his grandson was posted in his step daughter's account?
My daughter posted it there because SD21 didn't ask her not to.
The longer it stays there, the more love bank withdrawals are made. The more withdrawals, the less likely he will be motivated to make you and your marriage his first priority.
If removing this photo is a sacrifice to you, though, don't do it, but be sure to let your husband know this fact.
Right now, there is almost no motivation anyway. He is cold to me 98% of the time.
And he's not enthusiastic about NOT seeing SD21, so what is the plan to get to something you are BOTH enthusiastic about?
There is no plan. We can't even figure out a plan to guide DD12 to stop chewing with her mouth open.
I'm so tired and discouraged at the moment. There seems to be too many issues for us to resolve. I just don't see how this is going to work.
I'm so tired and discouraged at the moment. There seems to be too many issues for us to resolve. I just don't see how this is going to work.
The FIRST issue to resolve is to eliminate disrespectful judgements, demands and anger. You cannot negotiate while these exist, and you cannot resolve any other issues as long as they exist, and that is why you are facing frustration.
Listen to today's radio show. They have a segment about "blended families" which you may find helpful.
I'm so tired and discouraged at the moment. There seems to be too many issues for us to resolve. I just don't see how this is going to work.
The FIRST issue to resolve is to eliminate disrespectful judgements, demands and anger. You cannot negotiate while these exist, and you cannot resolve any other issues as long as they exist, and that is why you are facing frustration.
And this is why you keep saying I should separate from him?
Listen to today's radio show. They have a segment about "blended families" which you may find helpful.
Thanks! I will be sure to do that.
I called marriagebuilders to set up an appointment to talk to Steve alone since DH hasn't responded to me about being on another call with him. I missed the open hours only by a few minutes but left a message hoping there is an open slot tomorrow.
The FIRST issue to resolve is to eliminate disrespectful judgements, demands and anger. You cannot negotiate while these exist, and you cannot resolve any other issues as long as they exist, and that is why you are facing frustration.
And this is why you keep saying I should separate from him?
Yes. I've been telling you to separate since he is not eliminating these lovebusters, isn't following the POJA, and it's effecting you very badly emotionally. Have you read the articles I posted to you about "When to Call it Quits"?
If you don't separate, you need to get into the online program, ASAP. Your husband needs to talk to Dr. Harley himself.
And he's not enthusiastic about NOT seeing SD21, so what is the plan to get to something you are BOTH enthusiastic about?
The default of not being in enthusiastic agreement about not doing something is ... do nothing until it's negotiated. And it's up to him to negotiate for something he wants to do. He's still seeing his daughter anyway apparently.
I feel for you. I come from a different situation but something that is similar. I am 30 years old and have been with my husband for 9 years but we have only been married for 9 months. My husband a VERY hard time controlling his outbursts and in the past year has actually gotten to the point to where he has walked me back into a wall and other smaller things. It is like he has to be in control and tries to be intimidating.
I am not an innocent party, I will push him back and I argue back with him to stand up for myself but I know that both wrongs are certainly not making a right. The constant tug of war gets exhausting.
We do not have any children but I can only imagine how you're feeling. I sometimes get treated like this from his family, like my husband can only do right and that I am always wrong and I get cold shoulders sometimes and one of his family members actually missed our wedding, not because they didn't agree with us getting married but for a situation that was caused by someone else related to the wedding.
I think you're absolutely correct, children will push boundaries and if they know they can get the reaction or the reward that they want, they will certainly continue to do it. My best friend shared with me a few days something that her therapist said to her regarding her relationship and issues they were having...
"There is no right or wrong in a relationship but there should be clear boundaries so all parties can UNDERSTAND one another and show support."
I think this is true and it is something I am certainly struggling with. The reason why there is no right or wrong is because we are ALL entitled to our feelings and our opinions. The first time we tell the opposite party that they're in the wrong, they become defensive and we fight more. I have been told that instead of fighting we should walk away and visit the issue a day later after we have been able to cool off (which I think you said you did that) and try to come up with solutions and boundaries.
Clearly there are a few problems going on here, you're not feeling respected by your husband and his children and you're also feeling as though you are being abused. I hope that the sessions will help him to understand how and why you are feeling. I think you should continue to try to prove to his children that you respect them, you respect the relationship they have with their father and that you would like to be a part of their lives... Truth is most of the time when something hard happens, they may be forced to turn to you and you don't want to have a grudge against them just in case.
Just a quick question- are their mothers involved in the situation? Could it also be possible that the other parent is helping create hostility and nastiness towards you too? If there is a possibility do you think you could set boundaries with her too and maybe talk to her and let her know where you stand. You're not trying to replace her and whatever happened in your husband's past is just that but that you want a healthier outcome for the children, no matter what their age is.
I truly hope the situation gets better and that you do not end your marriage because of children. Just always remember to watch out for your safety- if you ever feel unsafe leave and separate yourself or call for help if need be. Good luck!
I am not going to address separation, that is up to you.
However, as you are in the house there are some other things you could try.
1) Clearly you have an issue with DD21. I don't think you will get him to POJA this while you all are in the Withdrawal Conflict stage. I think right now he is using that as a way to escape/provoke you. Another strategy would be to say "Thanks for letting me know. Will you be home for dinner?/Would you like to watch Game of Thrones when you get back?"
Make it a non issue...FOR NOW. I just read the whole thread and I think if you were not experiencing Love Busters and had your needs met, you would be able to come up with some guidelines on him and his daughter visiting (visit 1 time per week or something). But in the mean time you 1) Don't cause DD21 to be a Love Buster and 2) then meet a need of his after.
2) Kids: The dish cleaning issue. Clearly that one night it didn't work out. I have that at my house..nobody thought they were in charge so they each did their dishes but nobody did the rest of the kitchen. So you say to DH: I was thinking about that time where the dishes didn't get done and I think it was because nobody felt they were in charge. I think it would be good if we sit down with the kids and see if they can come up with a system for who is in charge of kitchen clean up. We coudl have an adult be the captain and then kids be in charge of dishwasher/sink/table or have one person be in charge for a week. If we get the kids involved they will feel invested in the solution."
Basically you are having the family POJA a solution.
3) The eating with the mouth closed:
"DH, I have been thinking about how we can help CHILD with the chewing issue. I want to balance working on the issue without her thinking we are staring at her the whole mean waiting for her to fail. I was thinking if you see her do it, you could give me a non-verbal signal such as a hand squeeze and then I will do the same to her. I think it will take the embarrassment out of it but still let her know. Also a reward system might be good."
This is a non AO/DJ way to get him to change the way he acts while taking into account his valid point.
4) Is your home a place he wants to be? I know he is Love Busting and not meeting your needs, but to have some hope of turning this around you have to reallly try to stop the Love Busters yourself. Re-read this whole posting and gather some stock phrases you can use. "Thanks for letting me know." "How would you feel if..." Because if he feels unsafe with you, he isn't going to want to be with you at home. You may feel like "Hey, I do all the work and he doesn't have to do any"...well maybe at first. Hopefully he will turn around. If he doesn't, then you know you tried your hardest.
5a) You might feel like you are meeeting his needs but are seeing no changes. Keep in mind two things:
A) Even if you are meeting his needs correctly, you have to keep making deposits in his love bank to get that negative balance above 0 and regains that in love feeling.
B)Are you meeting his needs the way he wants them?
5)It is good that he is talking to Steve Harley. Lots of people won't even do that.
Yes. I've been telling you to separate since he is not eliminating these lovebusters, isn't following the POJA, and it's effecting you very badly emotionally. Have you read the articles I posted to you about "When to Call it Quits"?
Yes, I have. I connect with Steve for guidance as he has full view of what is going on by having talked with DH. He doesn�t recommend a separation as it could further drive us apart in our family dynamic situation.
If you don't separate, you need to get into the online program, ASAP. Your husband needs to talk to Dr. Harley himself.
I asked Steve about this and he said it certainly wouldn�t hurt. That we would be hearing the same things we are hearing from him. I have asked DH what he thinks about it and I�m getting a now canned answer of he is thinking about it.
And he's not enthusiastic about NOT seeing SD21, so what is the plan to get to something you are BOTH enthusiastic about?
The default of not being in enthusiastic agreement about not doing something is ... do nothing until it's negotiated. And it's up to him to negotiate for something he wants to do. He's still seeing his daughter anyway apparently.
There is nothing being doing about this situation now. Steve has instructed me to not put him in a position where he feels like he needs to choose between her and I for right now.
I feel for you. I come from a different situation but something that is similar. I am 30 years old and have been with my husband for 9 years but we have only been married for 9 months. My husband a VERY hard time controlling his outbursts and in the past year has actually gotten to the point to where he has walked me back into a wall and other smaller things. It is like he has to be in control and tries to be intimidating.
I am not an innocent party, I will push him back and I argue back with him to stand up for myself but I know that both wrongs are certainly not making a right. The constant tug of war gets exhausting.
We do not have any children but I can only imagine how you're feeling. I sometimes get treated like this from his family, like my husband can only do right and that I am always wrong and I get cold shoulders sometimes and one of his family members actually missed our wedding, not because they didn't agree with us getting married but for a situation that was caused by someone else related to the wedding.
I think you're absolutely correct, children will push boundaries and if they know they can get the reaction or the reward that they want, they will certainly continue to do it. My best friend shared with me a few days something that her therapist said to her regarding her relationship and issues they were having...
"There is no right or wrong in a relationship but there should be clear boundaries so all parties can UNDERSTAND one another and show support."
I think this is true and it is something I am certainly struggling with. The reason why there is no right or wrong is because we are ALL entitled to our feelings and our opinions. The first time we tell the opposite party that they're in the wrong, they become defensive and we fight more. I have been told that instead of fighting we should walk away and visit the issue a day later after we have been able to cool off (which I think you said you did that) and try to come up with solutions and boundaries.
Clearly there are a few problems going on here, you're not feeling respected by your husband and his children and you're also feeling as though you are being abused. I hope that the sessions will help him to understand how and why you are feeling. I think you should continue to try to prove to his children that you respect them, you respect the relationship they have with their father and that you would like to be a part of their lives... Truth is most of the time when something hard happens, they may be forced to turn to you and you don't want to have a grudge against them just in case.
Just a quick question- are their mothers involved in the situation? Could it also be possible that the other parent is helping create hostility and nastiness towards you too? If there is a possibility do you think you could set boundaries with her too and maybe talk to her and let her know where you stand. You're not trying to replace her and whatever happened in your husband's past is just that but that you want a healthier outcome for the children, no matter what their age is.
I truly hope the situation gets better and that you do not end your marriage because of children. Just always remember to watch out for your safety- if you ever feel unsafe leave and separate yourself or call for help if need be. Good luck!
I am glad you are posting for help on this site. It provides invaluable perspectives from all those that contribute. I have found that the coaching with Steve has really helped me and I am trying to get DH on board with the online program. On the coaching calls, Steve was able to reason with DH to show him why his AOs were really not effective in him solving his problem causing his frustration. He is making an effort to not have them any longer. What I am finding is that my DH is not fully on board with the program. My challenge is to get him onboard.
I am not going to address separation, that is up to you.
Steve didn�t suggest this as we do not have children together and a separation may be seen by DH as more of a relief from the stress of our conflict.
However, as you are in the house there are some other things you could try.
I GREATLY appreciate your willingness to provide your input!!!!
1) Clearly you have an issue with DD21. I don't think you will get him to POJA this while you all are in the Withdrawal Conflict stage. I think right now he is using that as a way to escape/provoke you. Another strategy would be to say "Thanks for letting me know. Will you be home for dinner?/Would you like to watch Game of Thrones when you get back?"
Make it a non issue...FOR NOW. I just read the whole thread and I think if you were not experiencing Love Busters and had your needs met, you would be able to come up with some guidelines on him and his daughter visiting (visit 1 time per week or something). But in the mean time you 1) Don't cause DD21 to be a Love Buster and 2) then meet a need of his after.
Yes, I do have an issue with her and you are correct that we will not be able to POJA this while we are in so much turmoil. I don�t think he is trying to provoke me. He tries to hide what he can, I believe, because he doesn�t want me to hurt. I think he really just wants a relationship with his grandkids and a relationship with me. I would not mind her coming over if she respected me as her dad�s wife and gave thoughtfulness to her dad about the situation. I was reading the book LoveBusters and found a snippit that fits this very situation. It�s in chapter 12 � Resolving conflict over children � Your daughter�s a thief and a liar. The only difference is that DH doesn�t see that he needs to stand up against her. He has blinders on that prevent him from seeing how a well thought out solution will benefit him, me, SD21 and the grandkids in the future. He is insecure about the love his daughter has for him just as SD21 is insecure about the love of her son. (One reason she doesn�t like me is because she thinks GS2 loves me more than her)
2) Kids: The dish cleaning issue. Clearly that one night it didn't work out. I have that at my house..nobody thought they were in charge so they each did their dishes but nobody did the rest of the kitchen. So you say to DH: I was thinking about that time where the dishes didn't get done and I think it was because nobody felt they were in charge. I think it would be good if we sit down with the kids and see if they can come up with a system for who is in charge of kitchen clean up. We could have an adult be the captain and then kids be in charge of dishwasher/sink/table or have one person be in charge for a week. If we get the kids involved they will feel invested in the solution."
Basically you are having the family POJA a solution.
Great idea! Steve suggested that I start a list of �issues� and start working through the POJA. Our problem is that we get stuck in the brainstorming stage. Steve said when we get stuck we need to default to go to him. We haven�t been doing that so I am going to try to push a few issues through the process to see if we can find an enthusiastic agreement for a couple to show DH this can work.
3) The eating with the mouth closed:
"DH, I have been thinking about how we can help CHILD with the chewing issue. I want to balance working on the issue without her thinking we are staring at her the whole mean waiting for her to fail. I was thinking if you see her do it, you could give me a non-verbal signal such as a hand squeeze and then I will do the same to her. I think it will take the embarrassment out of it but still let her know. Also a reward system might be good."
This is a non AO/DJ way to get him to change the way he acts while taking into account his valid point.
You are absolutely a saint! You have no idea how much I appreciate getting words to actually say to him that fits the program. This one will go on my list too. We have tried this approach without a �plan� so to speak. DHs problem is that she is still doing it even after all the reminders. He wants to punish her because he feels she is deliberately disobeying. He does not feel she has gotten better. I do feel like she has gotten better. I do see how discouraged she is when he stares her down and she just falls apart from the anger he displays.
4) Is your home a place he wants to be? I know he is Love Busting and not meeting your needs, but to have some hope of turning this around you have to really try to stop the Love Busters yourself. Re-read this whole posting and gather some stock phrases you can use. "Thanks for letting me know." "How would you feel if..." Because if he feels unsafe with you, he isn't going to want to be with you at home. You may feel like "Hey, I do all the work and he doesn't have to do any"...well maybe at first. Hopefully he will turn around. If he doesn't, then you know you tried your hardest.
I often use the �How would you feel if�� phrase. I need to start using the �Thanks for letting me know� phrase more than I do. I know I have a lot to clean up on my side of the street. I have already set up a plan (per Steve�s request) on how I can meet DHs ENs. I will continue to control only what I can control.
5a) You might feel like you are meeting his needs but are seeing no changes. Keep in mind two things:
A) Even if you are meeting his needs correctly, you have to keep making deposits in his love bank to get that negative balance above 0 and regains that in love feeling.
Yes, on a daily basis I make sure that I do at least two kind things if not more. I am actively working on removing clutter from the house (I have had two garage sales and will have another this weekend as well as the weekend after). I reference 'my plan' daily to keep focus on what he needs.
B)Are you meeting his needs the way he wants them?
At this point I would assume I am not meeting them in all the ways he wants. I am reluctant to do some of them as they are at my expense.
5)It is good that he is talking to Steve Harley. Lots of people won't even do that.
Well� he was talking to Steve. He still has not gotten back with me about having another call. Steve said I needed to express an urgent need to move forward so I did yesterday. His response was only that that he got my email. Steve wants me to focus on the goal and reiterate the goal to DH. We both want a mutually enjoyable relationship and it can be accomplished only if we proactively follow a plan.
Steve says that when you avoid conflict you cannot advance the relationship. DH sees conflict as a negative. I know that conflict is an opportunity and many perspectives are valuable in the solving of the conflict. Steve thinks that DH may feel inadequate if he cannot see a solution to the conflict. This is where Steve was adamant that Steve is to be our �go-to� guy when we get stuck.
As for me, I have been sleeping on the couch and inquired Steve as to if I should continue this. He said that if I was doing it to try to teach DH a lesson I should not stay. This is not the case for me. I sleep on the couch because DH is so cold and distant from me and being that close to him and being shut out hurts me deeper. Steve didn�t recommend me going back to our room because of the energy it would take away from me to get through the neglect. He said if my energy gets much lower there will be no hope for a recovery.
Ok... today DH asked if we should all do dinner together. He has SD11 and I have DD12 and DD13. You may recall from earlier postings my uneasyness about eating with him due to his issue with DD12 on chewing with her mouth open.
I sent him this text.
"I would like to go to dinner together. Without a full enthusiastic agreement about a solution to our concerns about [DD11]'s chewing issue I do not feel comfortable. I agree with you that it is a problem and would like to address it so it can be eliminated. She feels like you watch her to mess up and your anger about it hurts her and me. "
I thought it was respectful of his feelings showing that I too see it is an issue and we need a solution. I do also not let my feelings on the issue be sat aside. Here was his response.
'Ok if that is how you feel [SD11] and I will do our own thing.'
Now my anxiety has skyrocketed. I couldn't eat and I feel sick. I fear he is angry because of the way I feel. Is this a disrespectful judgement on my part? Am I looking into his message more than what it is?
Please give me feedback on this. I need input. Did I do the right thing? Was I too harsh? Was I not understanding and thoughtful of him?
I really wish this was as easy as kicking him out, but Steve thinks that will hurt our marriage rather than help it.
The fact is that him saying "okay, the other daughter and I will do our own thing" is independent behavior, a unilateral decision. If you couldn't agree to go all together, then a different solution regarding what to do for the night or how to have dinner needed to be worked on. It's not helpful for his reaction to a problem you presented is to do something else that violates POJA.
I really wish this was as easy as kicking him out, but Steve thinks that will hurt our marriage rather than help it.
He told me that, too. I think it has something to do with if the other spouse isn't too concerned about you, if you get separated they become even less concerned. Just a guess, though.
I would be interested in his response to something like "I know and understand that daughter chewing with her mouth open is annoying to you. I agree it needs to be worked on. I have some ideas. How do you feel about a plan where I remind her every time she does that to chew with her mouth closed? I will remind her even if it's every two minutes she does it. It usually takes about three weeks to form a new habit, so how about this trial solution for three weeks, during which you just walk away if you feel frustrated? I'd like to hear your ideas about how we can help her develop this habit." If his solution includes anger and punishment, instead of pointing this out just say you're not in enthusiastic agreement with that solution. If he asks why not, just repeat you're not in enthusiastic agreement. Or maybe that you're not comfortable with that solution.
I don't want to put words in your mouth - you may have a much different idea of what would work!
It doesn't matter even if she was being willfully disobedient, after about three weeks the new habit will win out.
Without a full enthusiastic agreement about a solution to our concerns about [DD11]'s chewing issue I do not feel comfortable. I agree with you that it is a problem and would like to address it so it can be eliminated. She feels like you watch her to mess up and your anger about it hurts her and me. "
I didn't read through the entire thread, so forgive me I am redundant...
Have you taken your daughter to a doctor to have this checked out? My son did this and a call to the pediatrician got us a referral to an ear, nose and throat specialist.
He had a malformity that caused him to not be able to breathe when he closed his mouth...even when eating. He had to have surgery to correct it, but we had to wait a few years while getting his face "prepped" for it.
I am not saying that she will need surgery...just that a medical issue could be the cause of the problem and could fix it. Plus, it will show that that she is not doing it intentionally and that maybe a bit of grace could be shown to her.
committed
I wondered about that too. I did not breathe through my nose at all until I was 10 years old and had no idea that it was possible. Made eating with my mouth shut really, really hard.
She can breathe fine through her nose and she is capable of chewing with her mouth closed. I implanted on my own showing her videos on the subject to show her I am not the only one to find it discusting. She says she gets the point. We will see if it makes an impact. Reminding her is getting nowhere so other means must be addressed.
DH said he is done. He doesn't have the energy for all the conflict. He doesn't have a positive outlook on the goal being able to be accomplished. He keeps saying it is never going to work. He says he thinks we can be great friends but we can't live life together.
Dr. Harley would tell you to separate, wipedout. I know you are probably tired of me saying it, but it IS what HE would tell you to do.
He's not meeting your EN, he lovebusts you, he doesn't follow POJA, and he doesn't show any real signs of changing that. Now he tells you he's done.
You are essentially Plan A'ing him.
You cannot emotionally take this much longer.
DH said he is done. He doesn't have the energy for all the conflict. He doesn't have a positive outlook on the goal being able to be accomplished. He keeps saying it is never going to work. He says he thinks we can be great friends but we can't live life together.
I agree with Prisca. He gave you the answer here to the proposition of creating a mutually fulfilling marriage.
She can breathe fine through her nose and she is capable of chewing with her mouth closed. I implanted on my own showing her videos on the subject to show her I am not the only one to find it discusting. She says she gets the point. We will see if it makes an impact. Reminding her is getting nowhere so other means must be addressed.
This is straying pretty far from your marriage but it does need to be addressed. Habits take 30 days to learn and good table manners are just habit. Share the responsibility with her of making the changes (tell her you were not attentive enough when she was little).
Always be the one to sit opposite her during meals and agree a secret signal that the two of you will use. Something like putting your napkin to your mouth when you see her slip up. Gentle and loving reminders for a month will change this, and she will be so grateful to you.
Steve says that when you avoid conflict you cannot advance the relationship. DH sees conflict as a negative. I know that conflict is an opportunity and many perspectives are valuable in the solving of the conflict. Steve thinks that DH may feel inadequate if he cannot see a solution to the conflict. This is where Steve was adamant that Steve is to be our �go-to� guy when we get stuck.
Keep in mind that in the MB program that go get from Withdrawal to Intimacy, you have to go through Conflict. Conflict is actually a sign of progress! Withdrawal means that you are avoiding, won't let him/her meet your needs, and are making no active steps to improving the relationship. Conflict means that you are making an effort to meet each others needs, but aren't quite doing it right. Intimacy means that you are meeting the needs the way the other person wants them met.
I sent him this text.
"I would like to go to dinner together. Without a full enthusiastic agreement about a solution to our concerns about [DD11]'s chewing issue I do not feel comfortable. I agree with you that it is a problem and would like to address it so it can be eliminated. She feels like you watch her to mess up and your anger about it hurts her and me. "
.
I would be more gentle in the honesty and include some positivity.
Maybe something like:
"I would love to go to dinner together. Great idea! May I request that you don't address DD regarding the chewing issue at dinner. I will be watching and will give her a hand squeeze if I see her chewing. I will talk to her privately about that. Can't wait for the Spaghetti (or whatever you were having)!"
Dr. Harley would tell you to separate, wipedout. I know you are probably tired of me saying it, but it IS what HE would tell you to do.
He's not meeting your EN, he lovebusts you, he doesn't follow POJA, and he doesn't show any real signs of changing that. Now he tells you he's done.
You are essentially Plan A'ing him.
You cannot emotionally take this much longer.
I am considering this again. I would like to write Dr. Harley again to see what he says around this. Thanks Prisca for caring for me.
DH said he is done. He doesn't have the energy for all the conflict. He doesn't have a positive outlook on the goal being able to be accomplished. He keeps saying it is never going to work. He says he thinks we can be great friends but we can't live life together.
I agree with Prisca. He gave you the answer here to the proposition of creating a mutually fulfilling marriage.
Then why is he still at home? I do see him holding his anger and trying to practice the POJA. He shuts it down with the small fuse Steve suggested. I get emotional and should shut it down prior to him doing it. This is where I am not following the rules and I need to change that.
She can breathe fine through her nose and she is capable of chewing with her mouth closed. I implanted on my own showing her videos on the subject to show her I am not the only one to find it disgusting. She says she gets the point. We will see if it makes an impact. Reminding her is getting nowhere so other means must be addressed.
This is straying pretty far from your marriage but it does need to be addressed. Habits take 30 days to learn and good table manners are just habit. Share the responsibility with her of making the changes (tell her you were not attentive enough when she was little).
Always be the one to sit opposite her during meals and agree a secret signal that the two of you will use. Something like putting your napkin to your mouth when you see her slip up. Gentle and loving reminders for a month will change this, and she will be so grateful to you.
Unfortunately this is not straying from the marriage. This is a big deal for DH. I am okay with correcting it. I agree with your view. If my video sharing has helped along with small reminders I hope this habit will be a thing of the past and will not be an issue in the marriage.
Keep in mind that in the MB program that go get from Withdrawal to Intimacy, you have to go through Conflict. Conflict is actually a sign of progress! Withdrawal means that you are avoiding, won't let him/her meet your needs, and are making no active steps to improving the relationship. Conflict means that you are making an effort to meet each others needs, but aren't quite doing it right. Intimacy means that you are meeting the needs the way the other person wants them met.
EXACTLY!!!! This is so true!!!! I know it, Steve knows it, you know it and many other people know it. He took SD11 and himself about an hour away to stay at his parents because he wanted to be away from the stress at home. I want progress! It makes me not feel cared for. I know he doesn't like the stress. I don't either. I went 4.5 days without eating because the thought made me sick. I want normal back but I want the issues resolved. He seems to want to float over problems and hope they disappear.
I sent him this text.
"I would like to go to dinner together. Without a full enthusiastic agreement about a solution to our concerns about [DD11]'s chewing issue I do not feel comfortable. I agree with you that it is a problem and would like to address it so it can be eliminated. She feels like you watch her to mess up and your anger about it hurts her and me. ".
I would be more gentle in the honesty and include some positivity.
Maybe something like:
"I would love to go to dinner together. Great idea! May I request that you don't address DD regarding the chewing issue at dinner. I will be watching and will give her a hand squeeze if I see her chewing. I will talk to her privately about that. Can't wait for the Spaghetti (or whatever you were having)!"
I could use someone speaking into my ear with every interaction with him. I feel like I can�t say the right words. I know how I feel and what I mean, I often say it wrong. That's not my intention. I just want to be heard!
Last night he came home from his parents. I had cleaned out the garage significantly, taken some items to Goodwill, cleaned the shower, washed the sheets and some clothes and put away several things that I had out on Thursday and Friday. I asked him how his weekend went and chatted with him about what he did and what I did. I took a shower and got the sheets on the bed. I lay in bed as I would have done before all this tension came. I had been sleeping on the couch because his coldness and distant behavior hurt so bad to be next to him. When he was gone, I slept in the bed and it felt good. I missed my room and the comfort of sheets so I had decided I would get in bed first and maybe he would get the idea and go sleep on the couch himself. That was not the case. He put away his travel items and it was apparent he was coming to bed with me. I fell asleep and woke to him touching me(non-sexual)! This is HUGE! I grabbed his hand and held it tight in place. I asked him this morning if he was touching me and he said yes as I was afraid it was a dream. I grabbed him and pulled him down to be closer to me. It is the man I use to have. The only problem is that the conflict is still there and needs resolved. He will be happy to avoid it, but all it will do is make him more mad because the kids are still not obeying like he think they should and other things that need POJAed.
How do I get him onboard for the online program? I want him to seek MB people when he is frustrated or stuck. What he has been doing hasn�t worked and it will continue to not work.
What is it that make men want to seek out help from here? I really don't feel a separation will do it because he has so much lossed love for me and there is so much tension between us he may try to say it is a relief and be happy he doesn't have to deal with the stress. Steve agreed with me on this but I will seek Dr. Harley's comments.
My kids will be with their dad for the whole month of July and they seem to be the majority of what triggers his stress. In my ideal world, I want to use July as a time to get back on the program and really sink our time into it. At least to POJA the major kid issues so we are on the same page when they get back.
To get him on board, you has to think there is an incentive. Right now, all he thinks of it is you having veto power. So he's not seeing any benefit for him to do the program.
So now he is communicating with me and not being as cold. Last night he did make a decision against something I have expressed we need to discuss further. He did ask it in the form of a question but I know if I would have brought up conflict he would be mad. I know that is a DJ but I can assure you this is what would happen. He wants everything to be a bed of roses and his way. When I disagree, it is conflict and he wants to avoid it. So now that I have avoided conflict he is starting to give me affection. The only problem is that it is received with resentment. The alternative is worse. Cold, bitter and distant behavior from him. I suppose this is plan A. I want him to come on here and engage with the forum to get help. I want the online program so someone can help keep him accountable. Does this mean I should finish plan A to get him to fall back in love with me and then change the locks on him?
It is hard to tell if I am doing my part and the result is his ability to provide affiction to me or if he is finally stepping up and doing his part. Last night his affection led further but I don't want it unless he really works on the marriage. I did go through with it but it is empty to me. He is on the edge of leaving and that is far from him showing me he has care and concern for me.
I don't quite understand. Did he decide to not do something or not discuss something? Is it something that bothers you or something you need that he's deciding to not do something about? Is it a past mistake you want to discuss or a current problem?
To avoid conflict, or more to the point avoid taking care of things that bother you, is not worth doing just to keep the peace.
If you begin a new page by keeping your complaints to yourself, then you are already building with a crumbling foundation. The thing is, bring up your complaints without Lovebusters because your complaints need to be addressed and resolved. And so does his.
I don't quite understand. Did he decide to not do something or not discuss something? Is it something that bothers you or something you need that he's deciding to not do something about? Is it a past mistake you want to discuss or a current problem?
Sorry for the confusion LL. The decision he made was SD11 staying home alone. We have discussed this in the past. Originally he was against her staying at home, but when she saw that my kids D12 & DD13 did it she wanted to also. Then DH and his ex agreed she could stay home, nothing was ever discussed with me until SD11 asked to stay home with my girls and I felt blindsided. It was not discussed with me prior to telling SD11 she could stay at home alone. I have tried to discuss this with DH telling him I didn�t want them to all be alone because when the three of them are together they fight and it is usually DD12 that suffers from the other two being brats. From that, an arguement arose stopping communcation on the issue.
On top of the kids fighting, the perspective he doesn�t know is that I feel that if we are paying for daycare she needs care. Why are we paying for someone to care for her if it is okay that she stay home alone? Last school year I broached the subject of her riding the bus home instead of daycare. My kids get off the bus at 3:00 and his daughter would have gotten off the bus at 4:10. I would go into work early but leave the office around 3:30 or so. Sometimes later, sometimes earlier. I have a very flexible employer. DH said that I was not always home by the time she got off the bus and he didn�t want her there without an adult. I told him I would make sure I was there and he pointed out how I have not been consistent on being home with my girls. (Gee thanks dad) DD is 13, not 11! Yes, I am angry, bitter and hold resentment for that.
On Monday, he had told SD11 she could stay at home in the evening without talking to me. This is when he 'asked'. He had already decided it but 'asked' me as a formality. Its just another POJA issue that has been added to our list. I have started a POJA list that sits on the counter in the bathroom.
That is the thing, he wants to avoid conflict. There are past, present and future issues that we need to POJA. How can I continue to bring up all these POJA issues we need to resolve over and over again? It is frustrating that it seems he is doing the least to make this marriage work. The issues we are working on are the ones he has brought up. He doesn�t want to resolve them using POJA, he just wants them resolved and continues to be frustrated when the issues continue.
We were discussing one issue and he shut it down with our �small� fuse. Then he retreated to stay with his parents for the weekend. In hindsight, I should have been the one to blow the fuse as I felt he was having a DJ in our conversation. Instead I was agitated and made a bad choice to continue talking. So, I have a list of issues we need to POJA. They sit collecting dust.
To avoid conflict, or more to the point avoid taking care of things that bother you, is not worth doing just to keep the peace.
If you begin a new page by keeping your complaints to yourself, then you are already building with a crumbling foundation. The thing is, bring up your complaints without Lovebusters because your complaints need to be addressed and resolved. And so does his.
I'm wondering if I need to start a new foundation with someone else who is willing to build a strong foundation. Yes, dealing with the conflict is key. He avoids them. Steve said DH views conflict as negative. I also have lovebusters I need to control. I can work with him if he would see that he also has lovebusters he needs to control but he doesn�t take ownership of his. I understand mistakes will happen. This is a new process for us but if we don't practice we will never get better. The only one he takes ownership of is AOs. Those are easy to identify. DJs and SDs often are not easy to detect, especially when it is new to us. I am trying to read though LoveBusters to get a better handle on cleaning up my side of the street.
On the online program..... if I can get him onboard with it, will the accountability partner be in a better place to help push him to work through these issus? Will they call him and check up on him to make sure he is doing his part? Steve is good but we have to initiate contact. I come here for input and perspective. I'm not sure if he does much of anything. DH lets his frustration stew in his head and to use his terms 'lives in a bubble' avoiding conflict and expecting life to be okay. (He said that Steve 'lives in a bubble') He says, we could be great friends but we can't live life together. He avoids conflict with SD21 and he is avoiding it with me. I must say, I hate conflict but I know it is a part of life and ignoring it will not make it go away. Some of it can be stuffed but there is only so much that can be without exploding.
So, at this current point in time, my questions are around the online program. I am not sharing my conflict with him at the moment because I want him to be onboard and move forward. It is not the way I want to live our relationship, it is just to get him moving forward in some way rather than running away.
There's a lot here to respond to, but just one for now. The advantage of the online accountability is to be able to get Dr. Harley's advice/coaching. However, that program also requires a bit of initiative. The steps needed to be taken can be just as easily ignored with either the online accountability or the coaching, as well as ignoring advice from the forum.
I spoke with Joyce this morning and she didn't indicate from what I told her that I should separate.
LL you said there is a lot to respond to. Did you have anything to add to above?
We have tried to start negeotating. It first started with the topic of follow-through. This branched off of the topic of the kids following the rules and doing as they are told. After making it to the brainstorming stage for follow-though, communications were shut down by DH because I became on the defensive. He was asking for clarification on one of my brainstorming ideas and when I provided my perception I felt he was arguing with what I meant. Lesson learned to shut it down before he does. Don�t get on the defensive as it will lead to nowhere. When we returned to discussing the issue, DH wanted to add to his perception. His perception was that he doesn�t have a problem with follow-though, that it is my problem and I needed to deal with it. I simply noted this and moved to the next issue. How am I supposed to respond to that?
Second question, the next issue we addressed was the kids following the rules. When I was explaining my perspective he told me I was looking at it too broad. Isn�t that a DJ??? I can look at it however I want! I shut it down by telling him I wanted to contact Steve. Problem is, that was two days ago and Steve has not returned my call. How can I respectfully explain that was a DJ?
I talked to Steve and he said that DHs response that it was my problem to deal with was only inviting behavior we are trying to avoid. I told him of DHs reluctance to have a call with him as he feels I'm the one that needs the help. Steve helped me by telling me we needed to have calls even if they are just check points to ensure we are on the right path and that both of us should be in attendance as he wants each of us to hear what he is saying to the other person.
With Steve's guidance, I was able to get DH on board with having a call today! I hope this weekend will be a good one.
I feel alone and unsupported.
He left yesterday. I don't know if it is for good or not. Yesterday he escalated and I shut down. My kids are going to their dads for a month.
Yes, well sort of. We were at Kohls getting shorts for DD13 and SD11. SD11 saw a pair and tried them on. DD13 liked them when she saw them on her so she tried them on. Prior to shopping, DH and I agreed 2 pairs each. They both had several. When they were done I told DD to pick two. She picked the matching pair of SD11. DD12 & DD13 will be going to their dads tomorrow for a month then school starts. The shorts are too short to wear to school. SD11 was whining because she wanted the shorts but didn't want DD13 to have ones that matched. DH said to me this SD11 tried them on first. I said DD13 was going to her dads who lives 40 mins away and they won't see each other. He argued that he would never allow SD11 to pick something if one of my daughters picked it first.
I stayed silent. Anger was within me. Just the night before SD11 saw DD13 doing a pattern on pottery and she copied off of her technique. DD13 doesn't mind because she understands that it is not only a complement but also is not threatened by the gesture. In my silence I could hear the MB principles. We should do nothing. I was angry and kept quiet staring trying to figure out what to do. DH stands to his feet grabs both shorts and yells "I'm sick of this crap". He then tried to demand his view. I told him to not argue in front of the kids. He told them to go. I walked away. I told DD13 she could get three shorts as long as none were the problem ones. DH didn't care because we purchase all clothing per court order for my kids but he only buys half for his.
We left in silence. We went home. He took SD11 to SD21 house for a planned sleepover. I took anxiety meds and fell asleep watching a movie with DD12. While I was asleep, he came in and packed a suitcase. So when I woke I saw he had done that and knew he wasn't coming back that night. No word from him in 24 hours and around 4:00 today he comes home and goes into our room, shutting the door. I went in after a little while to get something out of the closet. He called my name and when I answered he said he was moving out because he can't do this anymore. I simply said OK. He said he would get with me once he found a place to get the rest of his stuff.
My question to the community, do I change the garage code so he can't get in at all? Do I toss his stuff to the curb and tell him to come get it? Do I hold out hope that he needs time to process? I don't think he is capable of letting his selfish desires aside for the marriage.
Yeah... um.
It seems neither one of you is respectful to the other, and you pit your children against each other.
Prior to shopping, DH and I agreed 2 pairs each.
...
He then tried to demand his view. I told him to not argue in front of the kids. He told them to go. I walked away. I told DD13 she could get three shorts as long as none were the problem ones.
Le sigh.
And what follows that is a justification for the IB you CHOSE to commit to punish him for daring to get angry.
"Harumph. I'll show YOU!"
/facepalm
I see it closely to HHH. Seems you two swing from dueling dictatorship to anarchy then back again.
Don't block him from moving out with a power play, not unless you want to escalate the situation. One of the main things of the MB principles is about winning each other over, not forcing or controlling each other. Sometimes it begins with one spouse deciding to not engage in Lovebusters any more to start the healing.
In your situation, if he cools off and comes back, I think it would benefit you to start out with weekly appointments with SH. Did SH ever suggest weekly appointments for the first month?
You could also write to Dr. Harley and talk with him on the radio show. Just think, a free 30-45 minute counseling session where you get some actionable items to do if you choose.
It was not an I'll show you. Prior when we agreed he said it was okay for DD13 to get more. I'm the one that said I'll just have them each get two.
Do you mean my power play of changing the garage code?
It was not an I'll show you. Prior when we agreed he said it was okay for DD13 to get more.
I'm the one that said I'll just have them each get two.
Do you mean my power play of changing the garage code?
This is the power play the poster is talking about about.
You went to the store with this in place....you placated your daughter with not getting a pair like his daughter's choice, by telling her that she could then get 3 pair.
Did you ask him if he agreed with that decision?
Donuts to dollars it isn't about that anyway.
Some blended families just don't work. EVERY struggle going on in that house revolves around the children. I would say that you don't like his and he doesn't like yours. You think his are brats and he thinks yours are brats....just sayin'.
Some people just can't do it...doesn't make it wrong ...it is what is is.
committed
No. They're talking about how y'all agreed to 2 pairs and you decided the kiddo will now get 3 pairs without his input. I'm not sure about the matching clothes issue. I don't like my kids all having matching clothes. I think you might have asked him if he preferred to take the pair back and exchange them for a different pair. He obviously wasn't enthusiastic at that point.
He's also saying he feels you don't treat the kids equally, he's not being respected.
Why were you angry about the one child emulating the art technique of the other child? That is how art is taught and that is how one learns style and techniques before they are able to create their own style.
I apologize for being unclear.
The "power play" is about the garage. It's like blocking someone from leaving when they are angry and forcing them to deal with a situation. You can't force it, no matter how right it would be for him to deal with this in a different way.
Your good choices include calmly letting him know that you're willing to do your part to make the marriage work, that you want a mutually fulfilling marriage, and so on or to not say a thing to him. To choose to "make" him stay by blocking him from moving his stuff out is a bit on the coercive side.
As far as what I think about the specific interchange about the clothes and all that, all I can say is that this was nothing like negotiating for mutually enthusiastic agreement.
Wipedout, with the ongoing tensions within the stepfamily, it may be wiser to not put yourselves in those situations.
Why would you be shopping with the girls for clothes with DH along? It's a tinder box awaiting a spark. Waaay too much togetherness right now when you can't even handle going out for dinner together.
As they say, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Also, with respect to the matching shorts, girls that age can be very self conscious so SD might have been secretly worried that she would compare unfavorably to her stepsister in the same shorts if they were together.
In reading some of the escalations caused by your blended children, I urge you to consider learning stone cold, impartial parenting techniques, such as the "Love and Logic" program. You're having a hard time discerning what's fair and reasonable when your children are applying pressure. Many teachers use these techniques to maintain fairness in their classrooms which are the ultimate "blended" societal unit - many families and much immaturity. This technique gives children choices and consequences for their choices, which they are then to figure out how to fix.
Also, it's critical for children to be able to accept the occasional "because I said so". In this case, a "because I said so" to your daughter would have saved your family unit from breaking up that day - you HAVE to pull those out in emergencies and the children HAVE to understand that you'll do that sparingly but when you do, that's IT, that there's a bigger issue they just have to trust you with.
Finally, the children are NOT running the show, you and your husband are. You are allowing all of them entirely too much power in your blended family, subjecting your family stability to the childish behaviors of children. No marriage run by three junior high girls can survive.
Good show today!
What did you think about Dr. Harley's advice?
How are you feeling right now?
Dr. Harley's advice was greatly appreciated. I listened to it twice but didn't get the chance to hear it as much as I really need.
I have not blocked him from the house. I have not moved any of his things. I am trying to focus on completing the tasks that I should do whether he is here or not. This means I am doing things that are important to him still and coming up with a plan to hold my kids accountable for their actions. I could use the forums insight on my plan if interested. I have a month to get everything in alignment for my action plan as I want to start the school year with a fresh start to many things. I have incorporated ideas from my husband that I am enthusiastic about. It is better that he is not here as I feel judged and feel controlled. As you have seen, our methods of conflict resolution need major work.
I do see the strategy that was used in the last incident was not following the rules. My lesson from an earlier incident is that I should not reply defensively. My lesson from this incident is that I need to speak up and tell him I disagree and it is disappointing that we cannot coordinate our efforts. This should be my response to anything that comes out as a demand. I really need to make sure I pay attention on a request for insight verses a demand too.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I appreciate your insight.
Dr. Harley and Steve both think he will come back. I am not so sure. He tends to be one that when he makes up his mind, that�s it. It does hurt me deeply as I want to make this work, but I know I cannot do it alone. We both need some changes and if he is not willing to return on his own, then it speaks volumes as to his willingness to change alongside me.
I keep trying to remember the wonderful things about this man I married. He can be very caring, he loves his children so much, he interacts with his kids at a level you don�t see often. He works hard to provide. He has a Christian heart and a love for God. He can be fun and playful. He can be thoughtful and loving. He can be supportive, comforting and he is intelligent. He also provides strength in areas I have weakness. This is where I think a lot of conflict arises.
As far as how I feel, I'm a wreck a lot of the time. I struggle eating. I have not felt like eating in three days and if I think of food it makes me nauseous. I'm not really sleeping as much as I need at night but I am getting some sleep. My emotions go crazy when I do not keep a level head in the game. I pray more often, read scripture and reflect as much as I can. I'm going to grow through this no matter the outcome!!!
I'm glad you're working on things there at home. Sometimes getting a little routine is helpful to keep going. There's not much else you can do right now except to prepare yourself to not commit Lovebusters when you see him again. I know it's hard just waiting, but you can do it.
It is extremely hard!!!!!!!
I just got a text message from him �I would like to ask for the opportunity to stop by the house and get a couple of things. Can you please let me know a convenient time to do that? Thx.�
Please advise!!!!! I�m so scared of doing the wrong thing!!
Based on what Dr. Harley told you on the radio, I would say let him come by any time he wants, be calm and polite and friendly.
There's not much else you can do right now except to prepare yourself to not commit Lovebusters when you see him again. I know it's hard just waiting, but you can do it.
There's your answer for the current problem today: see him, don't commit Lovebusters. To do that, stay calm.
Thanks markos! It is interesting because I know this but my emotions tell me otherwise so it is easier when I hear it from another source. I guess I don't trust my own thoughts at times and there is good reason not to as my feelings get in the way too much. The only problem with that is that I don't always have access to bounce it off of someone so this is an issue I need to overcome somehow.
How does this response sound?
Of course you can come by our house to get some stuff. If you would like to share what you are looking for, I can possibly help get them ready for you. When are some times you would like to stop by? My schedule is fairly open.
I say "our house" because in arguements where he treatens to leave I have made the mistake of telling him this is my house. Stupid emotions make me say stupid things. In hindsite that was dumb of me to say. I want him to feel like this is his house. I have been so hurtful to him
Dr. Harley said this to me...
I�d offer a time that you would not be there. Let him know that you�d like him to come back home, but seeing him while separated would be too hard on you (which is true).
Do I go with what Steve suggested or his dad? Steve suggested I have a friend over with me. I be polite and friendly.
So is that an email response from Dr. Harley?
I like Dr. Harley's idea better, especially if you agree with him that it is true it would be hard on you to see him while separated.
It will be hard but I don't think the right thing is for him to come back home right now. He needs to look at himself in all this. When he is living here I hurt so much from the lack of love from him. Now that he is gone the silent treatment is easier to deal with because i am not seeing him. The only problem is that he is probably staying with his daughter and she seems to hate me. She will not provide any direction that would be toward him help fix the marriage.
Based on what Dr. Harley said the other day, I think he would say that since your husband left, for now it's up to him to make up his mind whether or not to come home.
Would a letter of my own reflection and apology to him be appropriate?
Would a letter of my own reflection and apology to him be appropriate?
No. You're going to have to let him think about things and decide based on his own reasoning.
I hope you simply gave him a time that was good and made sure you weren't there. I tend to agree with Dr. Harley's suggestion. You and a friend being there when he gets his stuff may cause tension, which would hurt your situation.
DH was only here for 11 minutes Wednesday evening. No conversations only a few spoken words. He picked up a few things for his annual 4th cookout with his cousins. No other communication has been recieved from him. I have not tried to contact him, don't really want to at this point.
Interesting thing seems to be happening. I feel more at ease without DH here. I am still operating as if he still lives here by making sure I still do the things that he desires and I�m working on the things that I know are important to him. We had so much conflict over how to get them accomplished. I feel so at ease with implementing a plan. I cannot �do nothing�. This is about raising my children and I must move forward to hold them accountable with chores and homework. He left, he doesn�t get a vote when he chooses not to communicate with me.
When he is here I feel judged and it is hard to think let alone function. Our house is so much cleaner! I have realized that this house has changed since we married. There are old bad habits that have been changed successfully without an iron fist. He is still so critical of my children. He makes it sound like I am a bad mom and I am not! I am a loving mom who has not always held my children accountable but they are respectful (most of the time), polite (a lot of the time), well behaved (most of the time) children. Sure they make mistakes and push boundaries but I am getting a clearer picture about my life.
In all of this, I am becoming a better mom. It is nice not having the constant judged feeling hanging over the house. It is nice to finally be comfortable in our house. I remember telling him early on that I didn�t feel comfortable in our own house!! It was never addressed only demanded that this is the way it is going to be..... this was because of table manners. I felt he was so ridged at home that it was uncomfortable. He insisted they be as we expect elsewhere. I feel they are almost "high tea" standards. Its just uncomfortable when being at home. I wasn't taught mannors at home, but somehow i still ended up not being so discusting that he married me! we ate out a lot when we dated! I am all for teaching the kids but the rigidity made me feel so out of place in my own home!
I am so relaxed and able to breathe. Sure I do miss the positives he brings but there were so few over the past year and more negative that I am actually feeling relief. I kept so much to myself because I never felt like I could be me. Funny how that is what his XW said too. She also said he was controlling which I would now say as well. The difference here is that I�m not seeking out other relationships for comfort. I�m finding it with God. I�m still striving to do my part but I just think that the desire to want him back is deminishing with level headed thinking. He blames his XW on so many things, past behavior often predicts future behavior!
I�m working on budgeting my money to pay for my expenses should he decide to back out of the marriage. I think I have it all squared away. Right now, I�m glad I�m comfortable in my own home and I�m not sure I want that to change.
Still nothing from him. This is the same thing that he hates and hurts him so much that his daughter does to him when she is not getting her way.
Still nothing from him. This is the same thing that he hates and hurts him so much that his daughter does to him when she is not getting her way.
So now you know where she learned this behaviour.
