Hi. This is Steubenville's wife.
We recently had a tough conversation where I told Steubenville that because he is quick to say (what I feel are) hurtful and angry things, I have a hard time receiving the times when he is treating me nicely as being sincere....and that I'm always awaiting the next angry (hurtful) moment.
We discussed a recent email exchange just as an example, where I had provided a one-line complaint back to him about something he said I didn't like. I tried to keep it short and humorous (but we don't get each other's humor, so I doubt he found it humorous).
He feels his response is empathetic and full of concern. He continues to see no problem with it, but I felt his response is hurtful.
Maybe our problem is we have different definitions of hurtful.
This is his response:
"you took the time to email me about this?...has it been bothering you since this morning?...eating you at the core?..we spoke on the phone..good Lord, we are in bad shape....did it even cross your mind that I may have ment good?.....perhaps save you some time?...if this bother you to the point that you felt an email follow up was needed; is worrisome, very worrisome......to me. "
Our marriage is in crisis and after a frank conversation today where I described a lot of pain I carried in our relationship, much of which had never been expressed before and was hard for him to hear, he was upset and felt near to ending the relationship.
I created this User ID for him & will send him the link to this question.
Thanks in advance for helping us out. I hope he will be here soon to provide his side and carry this discussion on from here.
What is your wife's username?
Mrs. Steubenville,
One of the cornerstones of Dr Harleys' principles is to establish care, safety and protection in the M. That is usually easy to do when people are in love. Not so much when the M is full of Independant Behavior and anger. Things Dr Harley calls LoveBusters.
If something you receive from him feels hurtful then IT IS!!! It should be your responsibility to communicate the hurt to him and then you two use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) to come up with an alternative so you no longer feel hurt.
Is anger a large part of your relationship? Your M cannot survive if there is any form of anger being exhibited. It needs to be removed if your M has any hope of surviving.
Have you and your H educated yourselves on the Marriage Builder�s concepts? If you haven�t I would suggest you both read the free materials Dr Harley has provided on this site. If what you read makes a lot of sense to you you can take this one step further and purchase some of his materials that go into more detail. But start with this site. Between the free materials, this forum and Dr Harley�s radio show you will get a wealth of information that can make HUGE differences in your M.
Start here -->
Basic Concepts
I don't quite understand: you created a user name for your husband, made the first post with this account, and perhaps expect him to start posting in order to improve how he treats you? Do you have your own posting name?
He feels his response is empathetic and full of concern. He continues to see no problem with it, but I felt his response is hurtful.
Maybe our problem is we have different definitions of hurtful.
Steubenville (I'm going to address you as the wife),
The problem I am seeing is disrespectful judgments. You felt your husband was disrespectful, and he wants to argue that you should not be hurt.
Here is what Dr. Harley says about this:
How can you know if you're a perpetrator of disrespectful judgments? Ask your s
pouse. You may not realize how you come across. But you are disrespectful if your spouse thinks you're disrespectful. That's the deciding factor.
If you read the book Love Busters together there is a plan that Dr. Harley offers to help the two of you eliminate disrespect from your marriage, and other hurtful behaviors including demands, angry outbursts, and independent behavior. The plan involves you giving your husband weekly written feedback on things he has said or done that you found disrespectful (and vice versa). He then works to eliminate those things from what he does and says (and vice versa).
BUT,
and this is a big but!
... this plan will not work if your husband does not come on board to the idea of eliminating his disrespectful judgments. If he tries to argue with you that the things he has saying are not disrespectful, or should not hurt, this plan will not work.
Dr. Harley does not suggest that wives languish for years in a marriage while the husband engages in demands, disrespect, or angry outbursts. Dr. Harley classifies this behavior as abusive. Over time it will not only erode the wife's feelings for the husband but the abuse will cause her emotional and even physical problems.
So Dr. Harley would encourage a wife in your position to present the plan in Love Busters to her husband and see if he is willing to go through it. But if he is not; if he tries to argue that she should not be hurt, or otherwise dismisses her concerns, she should prepare for a separation. One reason to do this is because a separation is a last resort giving him one last chance to do the right thing and stop abusing his wife. But another, more important, reason is to protect her from his abuse. And finally, she should recognize that their marriage is only going to get worse over time if he does not address and correct his abuse. If there is any tolerance for this behavior, it will get worse over time, until it destroys the marriage.
[
So Dr. Harley would encourage a wife in your position to present the plan in Love Busters to her husband and see if he is willing to go through it. But if he is not; if he tries to argue that she should not be hurt, or otherwise dismisses her concerns, she should prepare for a separation. One reason to do this is because a separation is a last resort giving him one last chance to do the right thing and stop abusing his wife. But another, more important, reason is to protect her from his abuse. And finally, she should recognize that their marriage is only going to get worse over time if he does not address and correct his abuse. If there is any tolerance for this behavior, it will get worse over time, until it destroys the marriage.
MrsStuebenville, to support Markos' point, please refer to this article:
When to Call It Quits - Part 1
Is your husband planning on coming here?
It won't work if she creates and account for him and tells him to go get himself fixed.
That's what this looks like.
Mrs S: Mr S, I created and account over on marriagebuilders.com so you can fix what's wrong with you.
Mr S: What are you working on?
Mrs S: Nothing, you are the one who hurts me, so fix it.
I predict this will not go well for her. That simplified exchange above is how I suspect this will come across to him.
Mrs. S,
You can only change and work on yourself.
I suggest that you personally read the previous links to articles and you come back and post more about your situation.
Whatever your relationship problems are, you can start by modifying and more correctly taking charge of what You are responsible for.
LTL
It won't work if she creates and account for him and tells him to go get himself fixed.
That's what this looks like.
Mrs S: Mr S, I created and account over on marriagebuilders.com so you can fix what's wrong with you.
Mr S: What are you working on?
Mrs S: Nothing, you are the one who hurts me, so fix it.
I predict this will not go well for her. That simplified exchange above is how I suspect this will come across to him.
Well, yes, it wouldn't be respectful to use phrases like "fix what's wrong with you." The way to put it is "There's something you are doing that is causing a problem for me: disrespectful judgments. When you say ... I find it disrespectful. Will you join me in this plan to eliminate the disrespect from our marriage?"
And then if not ... she needs to SEPARATE rather than ESCALATE (i.e., use stronger language, etc.)
As for whether he is "wrong" or not, Dr. Harley classifies disrespect as ABUSE. I am certain that she has had these conversations with him many times before. The problem is that he simply does not care and thinks she should live with abuse. He gaslights her into thinking the problem is different definitions of what is hurtful - that she shouldn't feel hurt, because he didn't mean it that way.
This is all pretty common, and that is why Dr. Harley recommends that if she brings this up to her spouse and he argues that there isn't a problem, or indicates he doesn't care, that she separate from him. That gives him one last chance and makes a great last resort plan - and it also protects her from further abuse.
Mrs. S,
You can only change and work on yourself.
Yes, but,
I imagine she's done all of this:
I suggest that you personally read the previous links to articles and you come back and post more about your situation.
Whatever your relationship problems are, you can start by modifying and more correctly taking charge of what You are responsible for.
LTL
Dr. Harley says a wife does not have a lot of potential to bring her husband over to this approach. If she has tried all of this and he is still arguing with her whether she should be hurt or not, separation is the next step. Dr. Harley does NOT recommend that women spend YEARS languishing in disrespectful, abusive, or neglectful marriages, as so many on this forum have done. It does not work - it doesn't bring the husbands on board. It is better to raise the bar SOONER and have a chance of getting the problems fixed.
Steubenville (again I'm speaking to the wife),
Another thing you might try is see if you can get your husband to talk with Dr. Harley's son Steve or daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers. They offer paid marriage coaching:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.htmlIt is possible that they may be able to get through to him about how mandatory it is that a marriage be respectful and that there be no tolerance for demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts in marriage. Maybe your husband would be willing to talk to them.
Another option would be to talk to Dr. Harley directly on his radio show:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
Either he doesn't receive complaints well, she overwhelms him with the number of complaints because she lets things build up, or she responds disrespectfully. She says he is the one ready to end the relationship.
Obviously it would be good to get him on here. But at this point she needs to motivate him somehow because he is the one ready to call it quits.
Thank you all for responding.
Mr. Steubenville said he plans to log into this forum tomorrow morning, read all of your responses and provide his perspective. I know MB prefers spouses to stay off each other's threads once both are engaged on the forum, so I (Mrs.) can stay off his thread from here on.
A quick answer to some of the questions directed to the Mrs or about background.
--Mrs. S. has extensively studied MB materials, HNHN, LBs & this forum.
--Mrs. S. has an MB username but due to Mr. S.'s feeling last night that he was done with the marriage after understanding only part of Mrs. S's concerns about the M, Mrs. S. would appreciate MB advice on whether to be RH by exposing her account to Mr. S. at this moment. Currently RH meets with (what Mrs. S feels is) an AO and sometimes a threat to leave the marriage as well, so it would seem better to address AO issue before this next RH step? Marko's instincts are accurate as to Mrs. S's situation.
--Mrs S. recently requested a temporary separation from Mr. S. with the following conditions for return: i) anger management therapy (none has yet occurred), ii) some time to refresh her health, iii) dating each other with the prescribed UA time until their loving relationship was reignighted, and iv) counselling with Steve H. Another motive of hers was also that he have the opportunity to choose again, without the impediment of fearing disruption - it having already occurred - whether he truly wants to be in the marriage.
--The S's have had 3 sessions with Steve H. Our next will be the first session in which we talk to him together.
--The temporary separation is not off the table, but has not occurred yet. Mrs. S. stopped the process because it was unfolding detrimentally involving the children. However, Mrs. S. is unable to continue on with the M in its current form because she no longer wishes to and because it is affecting her health again.
--and to Enlightened Ex, Mrs. S. is willing to take any 2x4s she deserves as well. Mr. S has never been a forum person or one to engage in internet comments. After last night she took this initiative. It's an unusual start, perhaps even an IB, but poking a hole in someone's throat is unusual too, unless they are about to die from choking.
The elephant in the room is that Mr. has threatened to leave Mrs. so many times that she sincerely does not believe he wants to be married to her for any reason other than convenience. He will PROMISE to never threaten again, but he always goes back to the habit of including this threat in some of his AOs. As a result, she doesn't desire to be with someone who is quick to repudiate a marriage to her any more either.
Hopefully Mr. S. will be here tomorrow morning and you can hear his perspective next. He and I obviously have a difference of opinion on what an AO is, so perhaps after hearing him you will agree with his opinion that I'm oversensitive.
I (Mrs) just want the truth so this crazy train can stop. If I am the problem, I'd be glad to know that; I can fix me. But from my perspective, our 24 year marriage gets incrementally (or should I say exponentially) worse each year.
Please save any 2x4s for him until you have heard his side. Sometimes we seem to be in two different realities. I am happy to receive any you have for me, because you have heard my side now.
Thanks again for all of the hours you volunteer to help complete strangers!
Mrs. S,
You're not too sensitive. Many times people can get lost in defining what is or isn't an AO, a DJ, a demand, but the real point is that whatever it is hurts. The solution is for the other spouse to change what they do and say so that they don't hurt you. However, you can't push them to consider your feelings, you can only ask and show good faith yourself in changing your behavior to not hurt your husband. If that doesn't persuade him to change, your better choices are Plan B choices, not coercing him to come here. You want him to willingly listen to and consider the MB plan.
Mrs. S, I don't see why you would need any 2x4s. I'm sure you are quite willing to have a relationship with your husband that doesn't include demands, disrespect, or anger from either one of you. If you are making any mistakes in that regard, 2x4s are not an appropriate way for anyone to motivate you and that is not how Dr. Harley would do it.
I think Dr. Harley would focus on why you have not separated from your husband. He absolutely does advocate separation in the case of a husband who will not control his angry outbursts. Let me tell you that after two years here Prisca finally decided she was not going to take my angry outbursts any more last year and that I could not continue to live at home if I had them. And after two sessions of what I now call "Super 8 motel therapy", I believe I am quite cured! It's been over a year since my last angry outburst and Prisca couldn't be happier.
It was the right thing for her to do and we both regret that she took so long to do it.
What about the separation was detrimental to your children? Was your husband doing something to make it hard on them? Having their mother abused by their father is also detrimental to them.
Mrs. S, the number one thing that needs to change is that you need to not tolerate his angry outbursts any more. You are tolerating them and negotiating about what he does or does not include in them. The next time he has an angry outburst, you need to not know what is in it because you need to grab the kids and get gone, fast. If he tries to stop you, you should call the police.
He can have his angry outbursts alone in an empty room. You should not experience them any more.
Do you listen to Dr. Harley's free daily radio show, Mrs. S? He talks about this subject all the time. You need to make some changes; you need to listen to what he would advise you to do - and you need to act on it!!!
Mrs S. recently requested a temporary separation from Mr. S. with the following conditions for return: i) anger management therapy (none has yet occurred), ii) some time to refresh her health, iii) dating each other with the prescribed UA time until their loving relationship was reignighted, and iv) counselling with Steve H.
Mrs. S, don't
request a separation. It's not up to him.
Tell him you're separating, why, and how to win you back. It's time for him to step up to the plate and do what it takes to keep you. If he won't, then he really isn't worth your time.
Read the link in my signature on "What to do with an Angry Husband," if you haven't already done so.
Hopefully Mr. S. will be here tomorrow morning and you can hear his perspective next. He and I obviously have a difference of opinion on what an AO is, so perhaps after hearing him you will agree with his opinion that I'm oversensitive.
Goodness, Mrs. S, this is an abuse tactic! Your husband is gaslighting you! You are not too sensitive!
He needs to hold that debate by himself in an empty room, not with you. He should not be debating with you about whether his AOs are really AOs or not. To do so is abusive. That alone is worth separating for, Mrs. S. It indicates that he is not willing to get help.
Please read again this comment that I posted from Dr. Harley's book Love Busters. It is the foundation of how to eliminate demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. It is written about DJs, but it applies to SDs and AOs, too:
How can you know if you're a perpetrator of disrespectful judgments? Ask your s
pouse. You may not realize how you come across. But you are disrespectful if your spouse thinks you're disrespectful. That's the deciding factor.
BTW, markos used to threaten divorce during his AOs. He quickly changed his mind when he wasn't allowed home anymore and lost that control over me.
When I was no longer willing to put up with his abuse and threats, I realized that a life without him would be better than being abused. His threats no longer meant anything. When we separated, it was very, very freeing.
I saved a post that SexyMamaBear made because it described what separation can do for you so well:
do you want to know what I learned most from my separation with my husband?
That I can be just fine without him.
I won't die from the pain.
My world won't end.
I can manage raising my family.
I can be creative in finding solutions to things he used to handle (like yard work).
There is nothing I will face without him that is worth moving my boundaries and sacrificing a safe, caring marriage.
You have learned these things, too. You may not see it yet. But you did not die from the pain and your world didn't end, even though it felt like it did.
There is power in realizing this. You don't have to cling to him in desperation. You can value yourself enough to expect a decent husband.
Mrs. S AOs are abuse and please do not tolerate them.
What to Do with an Angry Husband
Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.
Prisca:
How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
If you hear "you're too sensitive," "you're this," "you're that," it's the same as hearing "I don't care about you." It isn't a complaint about something to change, so don't work on trying to be less sensitive to being hurt. That's not the MB plan.
I notice that your husband hasn't posted. Do you have a plan in place for this outcome?
Hi, you'll be surprised at what my wife classifies as anger, but anyhow, I do not want to end the marriage, she is the one who asked me to move out via email on my birthday (albeit temporarely). We have 5 beautiful children, my wife is a terrific person, with the highest degree of ethics, independant, professional and a good mother. Why would I want to walk away from her; she complained about my outbursts, so I changed, and I now approach everything with low anxiety, low energy, peacefully, my answer in the email was concerning, not disrespectful (or at least thats what I ment), if she emailed me about an innocent remark, trust me, she was bothered....and when things bother her for a while she gets with anxiety...last time she had to go on medication; I do not want that at all, so if I detect anxiety, I get really concerned. Now that I no longer get angry (or at least I like to think I don't), then she is finding more and more behaviours in me that bother her and trigger responses. So I am learning, and learning, and learning....I am being very careful on my opinions; (she does not like it when my opinions are strong)I am choosing my words carefully, I am not going to state anything I deem it may sound obvious (thats a huge withdrawal)...even if it costs us time and or money; and won't disagree with her, that triggers "conversations" (aka, an argument which she shall win.) I trust her judgement, so unless its a life or death issue, we can move ahead under her leadership, and live our lives in peace, enjoy our kids, the beautiful home we have; I don't have a problem with that. We are really very blessed with what we have, I am not going to be sweating the small stuff, have so many thigs to be grateful, and look forward to, so as far as I am concerned, I will modify whatever behaviours I need to modify as we go along, (some may be a little tough as they invove my personality)I pray that I don't slip up, as one slip up usually sets me back a few years, and then she remembers all the horrible things I've done...so it will be a challenge but I'll have to do what I have to do to keep providing our kids a stable home; believe me, I am not being a victim or sacrificing here....in the end I think it will be worth it; she is a good woman; we have a good home (we don't really argue a whole lot, or disagree at all)...thank you all for your opinions, this is important to her, so I'll login and say my piece as often as I can. Ahh, one more thing, I really believe that we can choose to make almost anything anyone says, disrespectful, or offensive (I apologize to the political correct)so it is sometimes, I am not saying always, but sometimes, our choice to take offense.
Ahh, one more thing, I really believe that we can choose to make almost anything anyone says, disrespectful, or offensive (I apologize to the political correct)so it is sometimes, I am not saying always, but sometimes, our choice to take offense.
Hi MrS, thanks so much logging in and giving your perspective. Most people don't choose to be offended. It is a reaction to behavior. It is much easier for you to change your behavior than it is for her to change her reaction. Every time she is offended, it causes her feelings for you to erode. So it is in your best interest to take that very seriously and stop doing the thing that upsets her. It might not be pleasant to be told you are doing something offensive, but the alternative is even worse because before long she won't want to be married to you. And I am sure you don't want that.
Getting a complaint is like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is a notice that your bank account is draining and you are stacking up bounced check fees. Not getting that notice is even worse, because you can't fix a problem you are not aware of.
For example, this kind of response:
"you took the time to email me about this?...has it been bothering you since this morning?...eating you at the core?..we spoke on the phone..good Lord, we are in bad shape....did it even cross your mind that I may have ment good?.....perhaps save you some time?...if this bother you to the point that you felt an email follow up was needed; is worrisome, very worrisome......to me. "
..... makes the problem worse, because it was disrespectful and rude. It doesn't matter if you "meant" good. What matters is how it affected her. It offended her. The solution to such complaints is not sarcasm [which makes it worse] but an apology and a commitment to stop doing it.
My suggestion would be start with the book Lovebusters and work to eliminate them. I know it seems at first like there are a lot of complaints, but keep in mind that they are a good thing, not a bad thing. They give you an opportunity for improvement.
Hi, Mr S. Welcome to Marriage Builders.
What I am hearing from your message is that you have not yet learned to communicate with your wife in a way that she doesn't find demanding, disrespectful, and/or angry. These three offenses really are in the way of the beholder.
My wife and I went through Dr. Harley's weekend seminar and followup program, with the assistance of a marriage coach from his office. Many times during this process my wife would identify something I said or did as angry or disrespectful. Most of the time, like you, I felt that the problem was that she was choosing to take offense, when no offense was meant.
Dr. Harley and his staff helped me to learn how to talk to my wife in a way that she doesn't find demanding or angry. Now we don't have this problem any more. I'm not hurting her, because I learned what her requirements are for safe communication.
The result is a happy marriage! My wife is not upset all the time and we get along very well, have a wonderful time together and would rather be with each other than anywhere else in the world.
It is much easier for a person to change behavior than it is for a person to change their emotional reactions to behavior. In fact it is nearly impossible for a person to change those emotional reactions. So expecting your wife to just not take offense is very unrealistic - being a normal human being, she just can't do that. But you can learn to accommodate her! And you pretty much have to if you want to have a happy, successful marriage.
Dr. Harley would advise you to take these complaints from your wife seriously - do not meet them with explanations of how you didn't mean anything offensive, disrespectful, or angry, because those explanations will not help your wife at all. Instead, follow the procedure in Love Busters to request weekly written feedback from her about things you have said that she felt were disrespectful or angry, and use that information to learn to communicate with her in a way that does not hurt her.
I posted this quote from Dr. Harley above - please read it carefully. It's about disrespect, but Dr. Harley also applies it to demands and anger:
How can you know if you're a perpetrator of disrespectful judgments? Ask your s
pouse. You may not realize how you come across. But you are disrespectful if your spouse thinks you're disrespectful. That's the deciding factor.
I think I realize that; and am willing to change the way I communicate; its the past that we need to deal with, I am willing to put my best foot forward.....she is very skeptical, so I don't know how I'd change that, but we'll deal with one thing at the time.
You change her skepticism by making permanent behavior changes. Do not concentrate on the past
its the past that we need to deal with,
You'll have greater success if both of you focus on what you would like from each other instead of focusing on what each of you did in the past. I find my W and I get caught up in a tit-for-tat discussion if we ever talk about what we "used to do".
Our conversations aren't void of complaints but we certainly know enough now to redirect the conversations to discuss what a better solution would look like. We have some pretty amazing brainstorming sessions now because of that habit.
The comments posted by kilted_thrower and MrAlias about the past are completely in line with what Dr. Harley advises on this subject. Don't bring the problems of the past into the present - instead concentrate on what needs to be done to build a good present and future.
Right now the number one thing that needs to be done is the elimination of demands, disrespect, and anger in your marriage. Do you have the book Love Busters?
Welcome!
I think it's great you've responded to your wife's request and are posting.
Let me help you with a few tips.
Hi, you'll be surprised at what my wife classifies as anger,.
That doesnt matter. What matters it that it makes her unhappy so you need to quit it. Since she has kindly made you aware of what she needs to see stop, you can stop it, can't you?
so I changed, and I now approach everything with low anxiety, low energy, peacefully, my answer in the email was concerning, not disrespectful (or at least thats what I ment), .
That's great, but you are not aiming to do as well as YOUR standard. You are aiming to do as well as your wife's standard. Encourage your wife to keep complaining until you get the fine details she needs right.
won't disagree with her, that triggers "conversations"
That's conflict avoidance. Complaints are allowed - just do it respectfully.
I really believe that we can choose to make almost anything anyone says, disrespectful, or offensive (I apologize to the political correct)so it is sometimes, I am not saying always, but sometimes, our choice to take offense.
It's fine to take that approach with 99.9 per cent of the world. If I annoy somebody unintentionally, it's their problem - I didn't mean to. You can't please everyone.
But anybody with whom you take that approach is unlikely to like you, much less love you. So if you want your wife to be in love with you, listen up and make life pleasant.
It's pretty easy to welcome a complaint and pledge to sort it out together. However you won't get closer to your wife while you have this 'but I didnt mean to' defensive shield up.
I would work through lovebusters very soon.
I am being very careful on my opinions; (she does not like it when my opinions are strong)I am choosing my words carefully, I am not going to state anything I deem it may sound obvious (thats a huge withdrawal)...even if it costs us time and or money; and won't disagree with her, that triggers "conversations" (aka, an argument which she shall win.) I trust her judgement, so unless its a life or death issue, we can move ahead under her leadership, and live our lives in peace, enjoy our kids, the beautiful home we have; I don't have a problem with that. We are really very blessed with what we have, I am not going to be sweating the small stuff,
I found this post by Dr Harley over on the private forum that does a good job of addressing your strategy of capitulation above:
Your husband might agree that if you were happy with the marriage, the threat of any divorce would be ended. So his most logical approach to saving your marriage would be to give in to any and all of your demands in an effort to make you happy. But I would argue that you would not be happy if he gave in to everything you demand. It would not save the marriage because what you want is a partnership where you make each other happy. Simply getting whatever you want at his expense is not at all what you were looking forward to in marriage.
But the same thing is true for him. If you did everything he demanded, that would not make him happy either. The only thing that would bring joy to his life would be a lifestyle that made you both happy at the same time. Selfishness on either person's part (gaining at the other's expense) creates a life without joy.
The Policy of Joint Agreement is not some new idea that can't possibly work. It's "submitting one to another" (Ephesians 5:21). It's what every solid marriage has been doing since the creation of mankind. Whenever a marriage is in trouble, we find ourselves trying to talk the couple into this rule because it is the basis for a mutually caring relationship. But marriages in trouble don't follow this rule. We don't ever see a troubled marriage when both spouses have been applying that rule to their decisions. That's because the POJA helps resolve their conflicts in the most mutually caring way possible. And that's what marriage is all about -- caring for each other in an extraordinary way.
Hi, I'm Steubenville's wife. First, thank you very much for your time in responding to this thread. I just want you to know that all of the advice is sinking in. For life changing decisions, I really take my time and analyze it many ways several times.
My original thread about H's AOs is here. I tried the advice but it did not resolve the problem:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=129124&Number=1560473#Post1560473The cycle (months of AOs/threats to leave followed by "I'll never threaten to leave again") repeated itself almost every year since 2006. My H sounds SO sincere when acknowledging a problem. I've believed him so many times that there's really nothing he can SAY now that I can believe.
Not a believer of divorce, several times when the AOs were so close together and I had no hope of making it through the next days or weeks without being cut into ribbons again, I would develop physical panic symptoms, several times needing treatment at the ER.
In Feb 2013 I reposted similar to the 06 thread, but this time the unanimous advice was a therapeutic separation while following MB rebuilding techniques. Your advice seemed too difficult to do (disturbing the children's home) as long as I had any nerves left to hang on. Few AOs with personal attacks occurred in front of the children - they were usually in our bedroom.
Additionally, the hateful despisement towards me in his verbiage all of these years had really destroyed any muster I could find to put myself out there for him again. Divorce was a far more attractive option for me than the separation you all were proposing - and that is something I NEVER imagined I'd think or say. Even when I emotionally divorced him in 2005 after a particular AO, realizing the futility of emotionally exposing myself to someone who could say what he said, and in my heart I felt the freedom to exit the relationship, however in my head I resisted actually splitting the kids' home. I just tried to show civility daily, try not to break any eggshells, and harden myself during his attacks so he couldn't see they hurt. I also took extraordinary care to never expose a vulnerability to him, as it would be thrown in my face during the next (or several next) AOs.
In June 2013, still feeling semi-panic every time I thought of putting myself out there to him with an MB style emotional intimacy which the separation would help build, I posted again whether it was possible to even get past so many lashes (i.e. the fabled definition of being an idiot). MBers SWARMED my post and said it IS possible - get to work! Call for coaching!!
While fighting to keep the stress/dread of putting myself out there for him again, I sold him on MB as a way out of our ditch. He agreed with the philosophy and said he would try it. In June I retrieved HNHN and Lovebusters from our shelves. He AGAIN committed sincerely to never use the "divorce" of "I should just leave" words to me, ever again. We read the AO chapter and the concept descriptions in HNHN. I asked the moderator to take my thread down so I could invite him to the forum. I felt he would lose any hope of winning the marriage back if he read all that I wrote. (I saved it first and still re-read it frequently.)
We went on our vacation before I scheduled the coaching appointment with Steve. He returned home before I did.
Meanwhile, H sent several links to cars he wanted to buy. I kept saying I wasn't comfortable with more debt. Finally I asked him to stop sending these links because repeatedly saying "no" was stressing me out when I was already feeling not strong enough for more stress, and the additional debt would keep me up at night right now (I'm underemployed) and I was starting to fear he would just buy yet another car against my protests anyway. His response was an email stating that at the risk of a divorce he was buying a minivan that day.
Between losing hope in him having any regard for our marriage, combined with his FOURTH "F/U" car and the prospect of untimely debt, I experienced a panic rush that felt like a heart attack and was shaking for the rest of the day. After giving it 24 hours of prayer and soul searching while in a physical state of panic/stress, I couldn't take it anymore and followed the advice received in my Feb 2013 MB thread, asking H to move out for 6 months while he got anger management counseling and we dated for 15 - 20 hours each week to try to build up our relationship again. I asked him to be out before I got home by the end of the week.
While he was replying to me with emails saying he wanted to stay married to me, to be in a relationship with me now and forever and that he was afraid a separation would make us drift apart (and other nice things).... he was also doing the following:
a) told our DS21 (currently serving a deployment) that I was not right in the head
b) told all his siblings that I was putting him out of the house, as if out of the blue. They were upset and started the "on your birthday, too!!" refrain.
c) told our DS19 and DIL I was putting him out of the house, out of the blue, on his birthday, and that his family was very upset at me. He repeated to DS19 and DIL all of the "poor you" comments his family was piling on.
d) told our D15 that he was no longer going to the family church but would start going to a church she likes better.
e) drove an hour to tell my sister I wasn't right in the head
I stopped the temporary separation because on the phone he was emotional and saying how he was going to be leaving to our children's crying faces (one of our daughters was home with him). Given what had already went down with the older kids, I didn't feel he could minimize the drama for her. He was also manipulative with a tactic that would hurt our DS21 and DIL. I told him to stop his move, and after I get there we'll work out a plan with an MC/MB.
It took so much nerve to point the car homewards - as the miles counted down, I was shaking even more. My panic symptoms lasted for over two weeks (finally took medication).
Since then there have been several AOs, but I mostly just avoid extended one-on-one time with him so there isn't another one. The email in the initial post on Steubenville's thread is what he says when he's concerned ....you should hear what he says when he's angry!
The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.
In MC last night, Steubenville said he was not willing to read books (including HNHB and Lovebusters), was not willing to undergo anger management training, was not willing to spend any of his daily internet time in the MB forums and would not return to his thread to get "beat up". I just wonder if he thinks this will blow over and all will return to the normal he likes if he can just wait it out. The only thing he is willing to do is date for UA time each week, see the MC weekly (who agrees my MB inspired separation request is a great idea for us) and he agreed to meet with our Pastor for spiritual guidance on Thursday of this week. The MC recommended another book but he said he won't read that one either. I know how you all feel about MCs but I agreed with my H's longstanding request to see a psychologist/MC. H has made reference to something being wrong with me mentally several times throughout our M, and getting me to a psychologist has long been a goal of his. I'm willing to take any steps he wants just to KNOW that I did everything I could.
The suggestion would be to separate. NOW, not later. These needless delays are impacting your mental and physical health in a very negative way. It also greatly increases the chance that you will end up divorced. The purpose of getting a separation is to hopefully avoid divorce. You may have allowed it to go too far at this point because I suspect you have long fallen out of love with him.
Your husband is pretty certain that you won't do anything to ever stop him so he has no motivation to stop his abusive tactics. You create a win/win situation by separating from him now, because he either goes through anger management and chooses to change his behavior or he doesn't. If he does, you have a chance at creating a happy marriage. If he doesn't you won't be around to take his abuse anymore.
You have looked for solutions long enough, Sunntimes. You have been coming here for YEARS and are still in the same position. It is clear your husband has no intention of changing. The best thing for you to do is separate. The sooner the better.
I would also add that you did not receive Marriage Builders advice when you came here in 2006 because the posters were not familiar with Dr Harleys views on abusive marriages. The advice to separate is from Dr Harley.
The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.
I would deny this request. He can support himself.
In re-reading my post, it talked a lot about being in a near panic.
I've never felt panic about anything outside of my M in spite of taking on some tall challenges at various times in my life.
The panic is really rooted in a "mamma griz" complex, you might say, where I perceive a threat to my children's best interest. Every time I knew I couldn't stay any longer, I'd think about all of the harm, statistically speaking, single parent homes cause children.
Outside of the M, no matter how stressful or difficult anything might be, I've never felt a stress/panic level anything like my post describes.
Thank you Melody Lane.
Boy, did you get right to the root of my concern - waiting until January.
As Ms. Analysis Paralysis (lol), I will think about that for the rest of the afternoon.
Outside of the M, no matter how stressful or difficult anything might be, I've never felt a stress/panic level anything like my post describes.
Sunny, this will get worse. I would guess that you are also suffering physical ailments. Women suffer lasting physical and emotional illnesses from remaining in such situations. And sometimes the damage is irreversible. You owe it to yourself and your children to protect yourself. You won't be much good to anyone if you are hospitalized with a nervous breakdown and/or some other psychosomatic illness.
Don't delay this separation anymore, my friend. The ball is in your husbands court and he has given you his answer: he refuses to do anything. Don't sacrifice your mental and physical health anymore for a husband who does not care, who is only there to gain at your ENORMOUS expense.
In MC last night, Steubenville said he was not willing to read books (including HNHB and Lovebusters), was not willing to undergo anger management training, was not willing to spend any of his daily internet time in the MB forums and would not return to his thread to get "beat up". I just wonder if he thinks this will blow over and all will return to the normal he likes if he can just wait it out.
YES he thinks this will all just blow over. It always has before. There's no real reason to do anything that you have asked him to do, because he knows you'll just roll over and take whatever he dishes out.
He has made it clear that he is not willing to give you a safe marriage. Now, you need to make it clear that you are not willing to live with his decision. Separate today. You have put up with his abuse for far too long.
The only thing he is willing to do is date for UA time each week,
There is no point in UA dates if he will do nothing about his angry outbursts.
see the MC weekly (who agrees my MB inspired separation request is a great idea for us) and he agreed to meet with our Pastor for spiritual guidance on Thursday of this week.
Again, there is no point. As long as his angry outbursts continue, then all of this is useless fluff. He can say he's doing something for the marriage, but in reality, he's not. Don't play this game.
The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.
Request DENIED. He doesn't get a say on this. He either steps up to the plate and does what it takes to keep you, or he loses you. Don't play his games.
Thank you Melody Lane.
Boy, did you get right to the root of my concern - waiting until January.
As Ms. Analysis Paralysis (lol), I will think about that for the rest of the afternoon.
Please don't fall into the tarpit of anaylis paralysis anymore, Sunny. You have been in that tarpit since 2006. Make a choice to walk out today. Don't wait until it is too late.
You have endangered your health and made the situation through that strategy.
It all comes down to this:
He has made it clear that he is not willing to give you a safe marriage.
Frankly, my opinion is that most men who are like this need to think these issues over alone and reevaluate their willingness when it's the only option they have to keep their marriage.
Please reread Prisca's post often - she knows what she is talking about. I'm not just saying that because she's my wife - I'm saying that because she put what she heard from Dr. Harley into practice and gave me the boot, and the end result for us was a happy marriage!
Thank you Melody Lane.
Boy, did you get right to the root of my concern - waiting until January.
As Ms. Analysis Paralysis (lol), I will think about that for the rest of the afternoon.
Please don't fall trap to anaylis paralysis anymore, Sunny.
You have endangered your health and made the situation through that strategy.
Sunny, please take this bolded sentence seriously.
You know that I've been on here for year after year, hour after hour. I've also been listening to Dr. Harley's radio show now, hundreds and hundreds of hours. Let me tell you it's horrible to have heard so many situations where women put up with abuse and discover how horrible the consequences are. Eventually it literally kills them even if he never lays a hand on her. I have heard women talk to Dr. Harley whose immune systems are rising up and trying to kill them to get out of the stress of what they are living in.
Does your husband have a job, Sunny? How does he support himself now? If he has a job he can get a second job to help him pay for his new place.
The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.
In MC last night, Steubenville said he was not willing to read books (including HNHB and Lovebusters), was not willing to undergo anger management training, was not willing to spend any of his daily internet time in the MB forums and would not return to his thread to get "beat up".
In other words, he's still completely, 100% in charge, and doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to.
This is not love and is not going to result in happiness for you, and I promise you that UA time will not make him change his mind.
The panic is really rooted in a "mamma griz" complex, you might say, where I perceive a threat to my children's best interest. Every time I knew I couldn't stay any longer, I'd think about all of the harm, statistically speaking, single parent homes cause children.
Hon, think of the harm it does to your children to live in a household with an angry father and an emotionally unstable/anxious mother.
Separate FOR them. They need you to be at your best. You can't be at your best as long as you are being abused at the hands of their father.
One of the turning points for me that pushed me toward separation was after one of markos' worst AOs directed at me. He left the house in a rage, and left me with the children who were all sobbing. They turned to me, tearfully demanding to know why I didn't just do what Daddy wanted so that Daddy wouldn't leave them. I saw then the emotional damage they were suffering by just living in the house full of AOs. His AOs weren't directed at them for the most part, but it damaged them.
Your husband's AOs are affecting your children more than you realize. Separate FOR them.
In MC last night, Steubenville said he was not willing to read books (including HNHB and Lovebusters), was not willing to undergo anger management training, was not willing to spend any of his daily internet time in the MB forums and would not return to his thread to get "beat up".
Sunny,
I am terribly sorry that that is the stance your H is taking. Without his cooperation your M is doomed. The next logical step will be for him will be to place all the blame on you for the marital problems and I see that is exactly what he�s done. Are you really going to acquiesce to his demand of seeing a psychologist?
Please, please listen to what everyone is telling you here. If he is the only source of your panic attacks why would you agree to any of his terms? Get yourself away from him so you can recover from his abuse and have a clear head on your next steps. Give him the chance to step up and do something to help this M recover.
The status of separation: Steubenville requested it wait until January when hopefully I'll have a new job due to expenses of two households.
The whole point of separation is to END the fact that he is in CONTROL (i.e., abusing you). It's not that being apart will magically make things better. It won't! It's that him continuing to control and abuse you will be detrimental to you and you need to get him out of there until he agrees to stop it and do whatever it takes to stop it forever.
When Prisca told me I was leaving because of my angry outbursts I didn't even have money to pay for a hotel! I spent a stressful couple hours figuring out where the heck I was going to stay. But it was my responsibility, because I caused the problem, by being an abusive jerk. I didn't burden her with it other than a request to come get my checkbook. For a little while I thought I was going to have to sleep in my car. Meanwhile, for her part, she had made preparations to change the locks and get her family to intervene and get me out of there if I refused to separate.
You cannot negotiate this with him - or anything else, for that matter - because he is not willing to give up abuse and control. You can't negotiate until he yields that control. Your only shot is that he MIGHT give up that control if that's what he has to do to stay with you. Start by putting him on notice that he is not going to have any control at all until his position on this matter changes - show him the door, and change the locks.
I don't think being separated from Prisca damaged my children at all.
Please don't just read these posts and then move on. Reread them and reread them, over and over again.
Please listen to Prisca and MelodyLane. Your children are depending on you.
Does your husband have a job, Sunny? How does he support himself now? If he has a job he can get a second job to help him pay for his new place.
He does. Right now he's the larger earner and I'm underemployed. We are doing OK with his employment + my underemployment. If mine is lost, one household will be tight, two may not be possible.
He is concerned about sinking the $ into separation these several months when we might need it if (likely when) I lose my job in Dec. I will have a clearer picture by the end of this week about my job status.
We have assets so we won't starve but they are not liquid, so costly to liquidate quickly. I can see there could be a greater cost (financial, health) to not taking the losses.
I'm still absorbing all of the rest of the much appreciated advice.
H has made reference to something being wrong with me mentally several times throughout our M, and getting me to a psychologist has long been a goal of his.
Whatever is mentally wrong with you is caused by your husband's abuse.
The exact same thing was true with Prisca.
Neglect and abuse causes all kinds of depression and emotional problems in women, and eventually physical and immune system problems.
Sunny, seriously - I've heard and seen dozens of women who are slowly dying because their husbands won't stop abusing and controlling them and neglecting them. Women who are about to kill themselves. Women whose own immune systems are killing them.
The number one cause of depression for women is their relationship with their husbands or boyfriends.
The first fix Dr. Harley recommends is to fix the relationship!
Does your husband have a job, Sunny? How does he support himself now? If he has a job he can get a second job to help him pay for his new place.
He does. Right now he's the larger earner and I'm underemployed. We are doing OK with his employment + my underemployment. If mine is lost, one household will be tight, two may not be possible.
Again, don't negotiate that with him - that will be his problem and his responsibility. If he doesn't want to live that way, then he should man up and do what a husband is supposed to do.
I would also add that you did not receive Marriage Builders advice when you came here in 2006 because the posters were not familiar with Dr Harleys views on abusive marriages. The advice to separate is from Dr Harley.
I know. When I came back in 2013 the new style of advice was quite a shock to me. However, it proved itself out. There was nothing I could change without demonstrating a boundary of self respect (separation). All of your advice helped me contemplate that, and as events unfolded, was proven to be correct.
Please don't just read these posts and then move on. Reread them and reread them, over and over again.
Please listen to Prisca and MelodyLane. Your children are depending on you.
Trust me, I won't just read and move on. I literally can't.
Please don't just read these posts and then move on. Reread them and reread them, over and over again.
Please listen to Prisca and MelodyLane. Your children are depending on you.
Trust me, I won't just read and move on. I literally can't.
Have you reread ML and Prisca's posts yet, then?
H has made reference to something being wrong with me mentally several times throughout our M, and getting me to a psychologist has long been a goal of his.
Whatever is mentally wrong with you is caused by your husband's abuse.
There is nothing mentally wrong with me. My reserved demeanor was absolutely a result of his AOs as you have deduced. He would often refer to me as being stubborn, but my "stubbornness" was just the way my refusal to let him know he got to me looked to him.
How do you behave like a loving, enthusiastic wife when you can just look forward to being ripped down at any "provocation" again. I couldn't even predict what behavior might spark one - or else I would not have broken that particular eggshell.
Please don't just read these posts and then move on. Reread them and reread them, over and over again.
Please listen to Prisca and MelodyLane. Your children are depending on you.
Trust me, I won't just read and move on. I literally can't.
Have you reread ML and Prisca's posts yet, then?
Yes - I can even one-up that. I have re-re-read them. :-)
I'm still absorbing everything.
H has made reference to something being wrong with me mentally several times throughout our M, and getting me to a psychologist has long been a goal of his.
Whatever is mentally wrong with you is caused by your husband's abuse.
There is nothing mentally wrong with me. My reserved demeanor was absolutely a result of his AOs as you have deduced. He would often refer to me as being stubborn, but my "stubbornness" was just the way my refusal to let him know he got to me looked to him.
How do you behave like a loving, enthusiastic wife when you can just look forward to being ripped down at any "provocation" again. I couldn't even predict what behavior might spark one - or else I would not have broken that particular eggshell.
"Stubborn" is just name-calling - a disrespectful judgment. Like all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, it's an abuse and control technique. It basically comes down to this:
"Why must you be so stubborn - why don't you just give me what I want?"
Sunny, do you listen to the MB radio show?
How do you behave like a loving, enthusiastic wife when you can just look forward to being ripped down at any "provocation" again.
You don't. You write a nice letter saying that you look forward to building a marriage you can be enthusiastic about together - one where neither of you abuses and controls the other. You stick it on the outside of the door with his stuff, and you change the locks.
If there's one thing Marriage Builders stands against, it's FAKING ENTHUSIASM. You don't feel enthusiastic because your God-given feelings are telling you there's something wrong here. It's an important emotional barometer that you and your husband need to learn to listen to.
But instead he calls it "stubbornness."
"Stubborn" is just name-calling - a disrespectful judgment. Like all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, it's an abuse and control technique. It basically comes down to this:
"Why must you be so stubborn - why don't you just give me what I want?"
Sunny, do you listen to the MB radio show?
I agree with you.
I listen to the links to a particular show given in the threads (both my threads as well as most others, including all others who have anything similar to my situation). Sometimes I listen to the daily show as well.
The shows reinforce over and over what you have all made so obvious.
If there's one thing Marriage Builders stands against, it's FAKING ENTHUSIASM. You don't feel enthusiastic because your God-given feelings are telling you there's something wrong here.
I have been doing this since 2005, and to a lesser scope even for many years prior.
If the AOs would have ever stopped, it probably wouldn't have taken too long for me to stop behaving reactively and gradually finding the enthusiasm again. In fact, a few times they subsided for a few months at a time when he really focused on trying, and I could see if the rest of our lives were like that, I'd probably be OK.
They just kept popping up again, so I'd despair that the "real" him had never changed, that the less-AO version was fakery that he couldn't sustain.
"Stubborn" is just name-calling - a disrespectful judgment. Like all demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts, it's an abuse and control technique. It basically comes down to this:
"Why must you be so stubborn - why don't you just give me what I want?"
Sunny, do you listen to the MB radio show?
I agree with you.
I listen to the links to a particular show given in the threads (both my threads as well as most others, including all others who have anything similar to my situation). Sometimes I listen to the daily show as well.
The shows reinforce over and over what you have all made so obvious.
(That's why I encourage people to listen: reinforcement.
Go listen every day - your thinking will change, in very healthy ways.)
If the AOs would have ever stopped, it probably wouldn't have taken too long for me to stop behaving reactively and gradually finding the enthusiasm again. In fact, a few times they subsided for a few months at a time when he really focused on trying, and I could see if the rest of our lives were like that, I'd probably be OK.
That would perfectly describe me and Prisca up through last year.
How do you behave like a loving, enthusiastic wife when you can just look forward to being ripped down at any "provocation" again.
You don't. You write a nice letter saying that you look forward to building a marriage you can be enthusiastic about together - one where neither of you abuses and controls the other. You stick it on the outside of the door with his stuff, and you change the locks.
Bingo! Can you do this, Sunny?
Yes Melody Lane. I did this in July sans locks but with a letter similar to your suggestion, and I can do it again.
In July he was willing to move out to work on the M and was taking steps to do so. I probably should not have stopped the process, but was very concerned about how his exit would be managed since my daughter was there and I was not.
Also, H's counter-condition was that he would never step foot into our home until our marriage was restored (not even to stay with our teens if I needed to travel for my job or any other reason). M said this knowing that my deployed DS21 was depending on me to stay with his baby for 2 weeks in September (had been arranged for months prior). When I asked him of his plan for our DS21 commitment, he said that was DS21's problem. H couldn't stay with the baby instead because he didn't have enough vacation. Great to say, except with DS21 deployed, how would DS21 care for his baby here at home? DS21 had no option to come home!
If H refused to come inside the home to stay with our teenagers while I helped DS21, I either would have left DS21 stranded or really inconvenienced my mother (have her travel to stay with our teens in our home for 2 weeks during her prime harvest time).
I felt boxed into stopping the process at that moment for the sake of my kids. Perhaps this was his strategy.
I agree with you that waiting and that smoothing over until Jan is not the best option. Some prior commitments make it impossible in the next two days, but I see the wisdom as you suggest of not waiting beyond that.
H is very warm to the idea of UA time, but, to build what? More of the same?
BTW, we received HNHN for our wedding. Our marriage was floundering almost from the outset. H was wonderfully affectionate while we were dating (a high EN of mine) but stopped almost cold turkey upon the M. I was chasing after him for affection as well as in general, many elements of a protective, caring relationship. The "heart" side of the marriage felt very much one sided. When I read HNHN, it put words to my problem and made so much sense! I asked H several times to read it but he would always decline.
I tried to meet his needs anyway, but for various reasons one after the other became uncomfortable, so by year 5 I had started to realize our M would never be the M of my dreams. Separation or divorce was still not an option in my mind - I didn't know I would ultimately need that until now in this last year. I always thought somehow I'd live through it.
I haven't delivered the message yet after his refusal to read HNHN again last night, but learning how to treat a woman lovingly HAS to be in our path forward.
In July he was willing to move out to work on the M and was taking steps to do so.
The thing is: he does not need to move out to work on the marriage. The problem is that he has told you he is unwilling to work on the marriage. Therefore, you need him gone.
If he were willing to work on the marriage, then he would not have to move out!
I agree with you that waiting and that smoothing over until Jan is not the best option. Some prior commitments make it impossible in the next two days, but I see the wisdom as you suggest of not waiting beyond that.
H is very warm to the idea of UA time, but, to build what? More of the same?
I agree there is no point in pursuing UA time if he won't agree to the whole program. And he does not agree so there is no point in leaving yourself open to continued abuse.
When will you tell him?
Do you have a locksmith who can change the locks?
Here's what Dr. Harley said to Prisca when she posted about UA:
Prisca:
How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
He didn't even answer her question about UA - there was no point to UA as long as I was having angry outbursts.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463You can't fill a bucket when you keep emptying it all the time! And kicking holes in it, too.
Hon, think of the harm it does to your children to live in a household with an angry father and an emotionally unstable/anxious mother.
Great advice, Prisca.
Thankfully, I've been able to compartmentalize the emotional impact to just my relationship with my H. I think the kids' experience of me is a generally well grounded, stable mother. They don't see me upset or crying or in an emotional condition. Also, I consciously try very hard to be the parent that's slow to anger, and when angry, keeps a focus on resolving the problem (not lashing out) since my H can be quick to anger. They don't need two excitable parents. I am not perfect, but generally do OK with this.
However, DS21 and DS19 are mirroring some of H's marital behaviors since that is the "normal" they know, which is causing or has caused some challenges in their wife/girlfriend relationships. I know 19 is very young, but DS19 has found an amazing girlfriend, a wonderful young woman. She is kind, generous, loving, always serving him, admiring. All the things any man would love in his wife. DS19 takes it for granted without much return effort and sometimes not showing kindness to her. For the rest of his life, she will be "the one that got away". He is very attached to her but doesn't know how to behave lovingly. I've sent him some links to MB. DS21 has had some adjustments to make as well, as his wife was expecting a more properly warm M.
Bottom line is I can now see the lasting effects of the path I chose. The other children are not in relationships yet.
All of the thinks to the private forums return a message "access denied". My user acct must not have the privileges to read them.
All of the thinks to the private forums return a message "access denied". My user acct must not have the privileges to read them.
Yes, I only put those in so those who are following along who do have access can go see where he said that. I'm an obsessive footnoter.
Anyway, we paid all that money so Dr. Harley could tell my wife that, and we're handing it out to you for free.
Back to the important, action oriented questions:
I agree with you that waiting and that smoothing over until Jan is not the best option. Some prior commitments make it impossible in the next two days, but I see the wisdom as you suggest of not waiting beyond that.
H is very warm to the idea of UA time, but, to build what? More of the same?
I agree there is no point in pursuing UA time if he won't agree to the whole program. And he does not agree so there is no point in leaving yourself open to continued abuse.
When will you tell him?
Do you have a locksmith who can change the locks?
When will you tell him?
Do you have a locksmith who can change the locks?
Tonight I'll tell him not learning about HNHN and Lovebusters is a deal breaker, and what is his choice (to learn them or not) under that condition? If his choice is still no, then I will take action as you have suggested, knowing that he made an informed choice without any surprises. I'll know that I ran that LAST mile to confirm.
I feel a bit like Gideon who had to get all his confirmations confirmed yet again. But then I'll KNOW there wasn't a stone left unturned which is important to my future peace of mind, as well as my firm conviction that this separation would met the standard set in 1 Cor 7:13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (i.e. by inference the opposite - if he is not pleased to live with her, let her leave him).
If his answer is still a "no", I will move forward as advised here. If his answer is "yes" but he doesn't pick up the book (or study the site) within one week, then I will also take it as a "no" and move forward as advised here.
Reading my wilting flower posts here, you'd be surprised at what I do for work - I'm the person chosen to take and win large calculated risks; not paralyzed by any means. I feel like I've had to assume a separate persona with my H for the survival of the M - which as you have pointed out and I have learned, has not been a good thing.
I have to run off to Taxi Mom duties for the rest of the evening, but heartily thank everyone for the time they have spent on my posts. Thank you for the great advice.
Markos, it looks like our posts "crossed in the mail".
Thank you for following up after me. Hopefully my answer is a solid next step.
Yes, I only put those in so those who are following along who do have access can go see where he said that. I'm an obsessive footnoter.
Anyway, we paid all that money so Dr. Harley could tell my wife that, and we're handing it out to you for free.
Thank you!
I feel a bit like Gideon who had to get all his confirmations confirmed yet again. But then I'll KNOW there wasn't a stone left unturned which is important to my future peace of mind, as well as my firm conviction that this separation would met the standard set in 1 Cor 7:13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (i.e. by inference the opposite - if he is not pleased to live with her, let her leave him).
Sunny, I would take another approach. Since you have been asking him for YEARS and he has said no in so many, varied, different ways [in word and deed] I would not ask him again. He has given you his answer so many times, in so many ways. Stop asking him and accept the answer he has given you a million times. Take him at his word and act accordingly. You already know the answer.
My fear is that you ask him again and he knows you are separating this time, he will say yes and then drag his feet for another 10 years.
It also comes across as blackmail if you say "if you don't do this, you have to move out." That seems like force. That is very different from just telling him you have made a decision to separate and *IF* things change dramatically, you would consider reconciliation.
I think you should make the decision to separate now regardless of his answer. I think you are past that point and now need to see positive action being demonstrated over a long period of time. It will take him at least a year, for example to learn to control his anger. Give him the opportunity to make that change while you are safely removed from him.
I think you should make the decision to separate now regardless of his answer. I think you are past that point and now need to see positive action being demonstrated over a long period of time. It will take him at least a year, for example to learn to control his anger. Give him the opportunity to make that change while you are safely removed from him.
I very much agree with this. If he is serious and wants to save this marriage, he will do what it takes even if you separate from him.
I followed ML's most recent suggestion in not "blackmailing" to get him to take an anger management course or read the books. I am (was?) also prepared to take her other instructions, but wanted to give an update on what happened next.
We already had one more session scheduled with the MC where our assignment was "list what you are willing to do to save the marriage". Knowing what I was looking for (anger mgmt and MB books/concepts), he told the MC what he was willing to do to save the marriage (date for UA time, separate if I wanted). He again restated no books or anger mgmt. I steered the conversation so he went first to avoid a blackmail setup, although he already knew the books and anger mgmt were on my list. At the MC session, he said it looks like this is over, it isn't going to work and start planning our exit. Seeing no effort other than what he has made all along, I agreed and we discussed how to split our financial affairs, timing, etc.
That evening, we went to see a Pastor who was visiting from another location, but one that my H really likes. I know this detour was outside of what was recommended here, but getting spiritual guidance for such a big step is so important to me. Also, in our denomination an un-Biblical separation and re-marriage is a matter of church discipline so it was important to me that at the end of this journey I have properly followed the church process. This was the first they had heard of anything, so they were reluctant to advise us we were at the end of our journey without any effort from their side.
The Pastor spent several hours with us (both together and separately) and asked H if he would make at least the minimal attempt at enrolling in AM course. H said the Pastor worked very hard to charm him into taking anger mgmt, and based on H's respect for the Pastor, H would do that. Pastor also asked that I give H a list of 5 things I feel when he is angry so H could take that to anger mgmt.
Almost two weeks later, with no action by H to enroll in an anger mgmt, I gave him my list, which boiled down to that I felt rejected and despised for most of our marriage due to the things he says in AOs, and that now even when he is nice, I am waiting for the next AO, so I see him as a hater even when he is not angry. Upon receiving my list, H said this is all over. If I can tolerate to live together until Dec it would be best for us financially. We called in to the Pastor for 10 minutes on Saturday as he had asked we do once a week. H told Pastor he was done, I told Pastor that H has made no move to enroll in anger mgmt, I see no effort on his part (didn't say this, but as I expected). Pastor didn't have any immediate guidance for me at that point and referred me to follow up with my local Pastor.
While I was finishing up my side of the call, H started a skype with the children who live out of state. When I was done, I joined the skype. After the skype, I felt overwhelmed - like he was tying the final bow on his rejection after rejection - and put my face in my hands and just sat there. H got up, left me without a word or gesture and went to the bedroom to watch TV. He came back out for a glass of water, walking past me. On his way back to the TV, I looked up and said in a broken, vehement voice "you are so cold!" He paused in his step but kept walking, shutting the bedroom door and watched TV some more.
At this moment, it felt right to me in every way to follow Melody Lane's advice and not wait until December. I had reached the point and it was time. I could not live with this coldness and rejection every day for two months. I was going to let Sunday go, and then take action on Monday.
During church on Sunday, in a quiet moments, all of my thoughts caught up to me. I couldn't help the waterworks (although they were very quiet and discrete), and was just overwhelmed that I was not worth reading a book or taking a class or even a kind gesture the prior night. H happened to notice the tears running down my face.
So, Sunday afternoon he pulled me into the bedroom and said he didn't want me to feel sad. He would read a book (HNHN, LBs) instead of seeing me sad - and that my comment last night on him being cold had hit him as having some truth. I told him I didn't want him to do anything because I was sad. I would survive and so would he. It's best to do what needs to be done for both of us now. No sense in wasting several more years of our lives to reach the same end all over again just because I had a few tears today. He became more persistent, and I became more insistent that we'd both be OK, and let's just move forward as planned. We'd both get over it.
Finally he said he previously hadn't been willing to make the effort because he didn't see that it would make anything better - how would I overcome my bitterness towards the rotten marriage I perceived, and the resentment of the past? He said if there was any glimmer of encouragement from my side, he would love to try.
So I said, similarly I am in the same ditch. I don't see anything from his part that would be offering a different relationship - just more of the same. He hasn't given me a glimmer of any hope. This opened his eyes, and he asked if I would give him time to read the books and if he could start showing affection. I told him that was the only way I could make it to December, since Saturday felt terrible - I realized couldn't' live with the overt daily atmosphere of rejection and coldness until then. I also told him it would take a while before I could reciprocate but if he was willing to keep pushing through that, then we coast that way until December.
H spent the rest of the day showing affection, and at bedtime, H pulled me close to him in bed to snuggle before falling asleep. H has not reached out to me for a cuddle for almost 20 years. And this was with him knowing that SF was off the table. About 4 weeks ago I told him I couldn't do SF again unless my heart was in it so could we wait until we either restore our marriage or split.
He has since read another chapter of LBs (DJs) and appreciated what he read. I have so many whip-sawing emotions - why is he being affectionate NOW after the 20 YEARS I have spent in the wilderness (that is a long time!) - will this effort last - this has never been who he is (except when we were dating), so if he keeps this up and we right the ship, will it go back to what it was and waste my time and break my heart all over again....so many questions.....so many emotions.
I shared these concerns with him last night with raw details (and many tears - which is very rare because is hasn't been good for me to show vulnerability to him) on how certain things in the past had hurt me so deeply. I also described that when he AOs there is a PERSON with FEELINGS on the other end, RECEIVING his words and HURTING. I told him this will not be an easy journey for him because on the way to restoration we will have some conflicts to resolve - and that there will be more information about how things that happened hurt because I need to feel he understands so he realizes the effect on me if he does them again. They were hard for him to hear, but he had been very affectionate on Monday - dedicatedly pursuing me - said he would continue reading LBs and last night he reached out again to cuddle.
Thoughts?
I think it is a bunch of nothing to get you off his back. It has worked for him in the past. He knows that you will grasp any crumb he throws out there.
Did he even bother to enroll in anger management?
Finally he said he previously hadn't been willing to make the effort because he didn't see that it would make anything better - how would I overcome my bitterness towards the rotten marriage I perceived, and the resentment of the past? He said if there was any glimmer of encouragement from my side, he would love to try.
That is some amazing chutzpah. He does nothing to change the situation so that you won't be bitter but wants "encouragement" for doing nothing.
You have shown him the WAY to erase your resentment and bitterness for YEARS and he has soundly and consistently rejected it.
She cannot meet his needs until his AOs are eliminated:
Angry Outbursts are the final and most inappropriate form of abuse and control. As long as either spouse can�t control their anger, their marriage has little hope of improving or being fulfilling. It�s not only an ineffective way to overcome problems, but it is also very dangerous. There are many cases every year of people who killed or maimed their spouse in a fit of rage, where they never thought they would do such a thing. I usually recommend that overcoming angry outbursts, and all other forms of abuse and control (demands and disrespectful judgments) be eliminated before trying to resolve conflicts, or even trying to meet emotional needs. Your sincere effort to please a controlling and abusive husband puts you in a dangerous position both emotionally and physically. So until your husband learns to control his temper, I wouldn�t even consider trying to meet his emotional needs.
**edit*
moderators note: do not disrupt this thread again!
Do not disrupt this thread again!
I appreciate your life changing advice and support for me during this situation.
My only reason to delay was to make sure that my standing with my church was not compromised if this ultimately did not work out with Steubenville (as I did not expect it to) so there would be no church discipline issues if I ever remarried - i.e. to follow their process.
Several weeks ago I talked to our new permanent pastor (not the one I mentioned before) and he quickly agreed this marriage could not continue as-is, and initially said I must separate, although that might not meet the Bible's freedom of remarriage standards under 1 Cor 7 - he would need to think and pray about that. Not a quick yes or a quick no.
Upon hearing that, I relayed to the pastor an overview of the events discussed here under my old username (whistlewhileyouwork)and he said that would qualify as grounds for divorce under adultery. Based on that he said I was free to move on without concern for any Biblical remarriage limitations.
Additionally, as you might have expected (I should say as you all predicted) there have been multiple other incidents where Steubenville simply does not see a perspective other than his own. He is blinded to having empathy for the person receiving his actions.
I feel a tremendous burden being lifted from my shoulders - I have done literally EVERYTHING I could do, and failing that endured as LONG as I could (which in retrospect was not a noble thing to do).
After a recent incident, Steubenville said he wanted a divorce because he could never make me happy. I told him he could want a divorce, but asked him not to speak for me - get a divorce if he wants to but for his own reasons. After several rounds of this, he finally said he wants a divorce because he doesn't want to be my husband anymore.
I feel at peace with this resolution.
I feel that if we had separated as I had asked in July we might be in a different position right now, but it was not meant to be that way, I guess. Also, I don't know if I can ever get over how his first reaction after being asked to separate, which was to strike back with a wrecking ball at the kids' respect towards me by telling them I wasn't right in the head.
Today we looked at a house he wanted to buy. He had lined up a showing and at last minute asked me to come along to give an opinion, so I did. It is the perfect house for him and the payment would be similar to his rent in this area anyway.
I still have concerns about the finances as it's still 50/50 if I'll lose my job at the end of this month, but what will be will be.
We are living together amicably until after December, but are going our own ways for Christmas vacation. Not having my feelings/emotions/future wrapped up in his harsh comments makes a WORLD of difference. I am not stressed out about him being in the house whatsoever.
I'm trying to keep my mind off the upcoming two huge changes (job loss and the day he moves out and initiates the divorce) occurring on potentially the same day, Jan 1, but am extremely stressed out anyways. If my job wasn't hanging by a thread I'd be doing WAY better.
I had two sales lined up for Dec where if either of them worked out our investors would hang with us for another year. One of them just fell through but the other is still possible.
I'm trying to focus on actions, not fears, right now.
If it hadn't been for my February thread where you all opened my eyes to this relationship not being sustainable as is, and this thread, I don't know where I'd be right now.
Thank you very much for all of the wise advice, and the time you spent on me.
One more update to my situation.
I am struggling to let this wash off my back, and am feeling so much resentment.
Since this decision has been made, close family members have made me aware of several things; among them:
1) At our wedding reception, H told my cousin that H was sorry to be marrying me. I believe my cousin because H told me that himself 3 days after our wedding. At the time when my H said this to me, I thought he was just really angry and trying to say something hurtful. I didn't fully appreciate how much my H actually meant it. The statement to my cousin at our wedding was in "cold blood", you might say. Not in the midst of any emotional situation.
I feel so defrauded of the 25 years of my life I spent married to him, wondering why my H used me and stole my time in this way. What was in it for him?
2) I learned my H has been saying that I wanted to show off my large paycheck better so I wasn't content with our old home and needed to build a large, fancy one - but that H would just be content with a simple, humble home. I've always taken care against being prideful - which H knows - and have never said any such thing. I also never even thought it. He knew exactly how horrified I'd be about him saying this.
Building a new home was a mutual decision because the other one was too small for our large family and the costs of remodeling would never be realized in a sale based on the neighborhood it was in; it would have been wasted money.
When we were planning the house, I was running late for one of the meetings with the architect during which my H knew I was going to show the architect various ways to reduce square footage. Before I arrived, my H and the architect were discussing the plan and came up with several ideas that expanded the square footage. I insisted we didn't need to expand it and could cut it, but my H said the expansion changes were even better. SO, I was certainly not driving a monster home project over his objections one bit.
There have been other little confirmations along the way - things I learn that he's said - that keep pointing to the path we are moving on being the right direction.
I could use some advice in processing these two revelations and keep moving on. I just feel sick in the pit of my stomach.
As a footnote, H will be closing on his home and moving out soon. Him being in the same house with me during the transition is not a factor - I would feel this sickness in the pit of my stomach over these two things whether he were still transitioning or not.
Sunnytimes, I think the sooner you separate, the faster you will feel better. You can't change the past, but you can make your future great. When will he be moving out? Can he move out sooner?
I hope you will go into Plan B when you separate. Plan B was a Godsend for me when trying to avoid the hurtful triggers from my XH.
"Can he move out sooner?"
He says that if he moves out now it will compromise his home loan for his new place. I wanted to avoid gifting him with the storyline (to all his family, our friends and the kids) that I really screwed him over in a divorce by preventing him from getting his loan.
I've been behaving pleasantly in this interim to not drive up the cost of the divorce. We have almost everything worked out except a few last items which I have emotional reasons for not conceding. We plan to use the same attorney who will handle the filing based on what we tell him to do at a joint meeting.
Once the money is settled and the divorce filed, we could go into plan B. It would be good for both of us, I think. I've been trying to keep a cordial and friendly attitude in the meantime since anything else would not accomplish anything. In a recent sermon our pastor touched on "heaping coals upon the head" of someone who is against you by your kind actions, and it made me chuckle a little. I don't mind that he transitions from a nice environment to a lonely one.
I'd feel 100% better if my financial situation changed; my job was extended to Feb but I don't have anything beyond that. I'm applying for jobs and trying to find other opportunities, but applying to a company's web site is not the best way to get a job (although I am still doing it anyway) and there aren't any opportunities in my network that I can find. My H's child support is not enough to keep the lights on and food on the table.
As always, you have good advice. I will definitely Plan B after our divorce is filed.
The things I found out that he already said (one last summer and one 25 years ago) just still hurt a lot, though. Not due to any feelings I have for him, but because that my friends/family were told these things in his efforts to just be randomly mean and take me down; and because I wasted 25 years of my life married to someone who didn't want me from the outset - who just used me and my time - for what I still don't understand.
There were other times that he would say something nasty about me - along those lines or other personal things - initiating the comment just randomly to mutual acquaintances (yes, this information is triggering THOSE recollections now, too).
I suppose it's back to "God, heal my broken heart....God, heal my broken heart.." until I can get this information off the top of my mind.
Sunny, I'm so sorry to hear those things. The first one though, was something you knew going into it, and you chose to take the chance on the marriage, too. So hopefully you can understand why he decided to stay, knowing what he did, when you made the same decision with the same information. I hope that helps bring you some peace.
Thank you NewEveryDay.
I did NOT know he was sorry to be marrying me during our wedding - it was only 3 days after our wedding that I first heard it.
Also, he was very angry when he said it, so I thought (especially based on his loving behavior again later that day) that he had just said it in anger.
He did not say that again until I was pregnant with our first child - but then again, soon after was acting loving and like nothing happened.
I didn't start believing he actually meant it until some years later after he had said it a number of additional times. Based on my understanding of Biblically permitted divorce at the time, though, I thought I had no choice but to continue trying to fix what I could in the marriage to make the best of the situation - I did not have Biblical grounds for divorce (which at the time I understood was limited to adultery).
During the wedding and leading up to it, I had NO idea he was marrying me whilst being sorry about marrying me.
Therefore, I absolutely did NOT make the same decision. I did not have that information prior to or during our wedding. He was very well aware that my faith does not permit divorce once a person is married. That is what does NOT bring me peace and burns terribly.
Just to clarify what it is upsetting me now - it is only very recently that I learned he was actually saying to our guest(s) DURING our wedding reception that he was sorry he was marrying me.
I had no idea, and no one passed that on to me during the reception.
Sunny,
I'm sorry your H has treated you so poorly for your marriage. He lied to you repeatedly during your marriage. He with-held information from you by saying those things to your wedding guests! No way would you have married him knowing what he was saying. And you have been the brunt of his wrath most of your marriage.
Plan B actually sounds like a vacation compared to how your H has been treating you! And as Melody has said - you can make your future great. How soon are you planning on Plan B and separation?
Sunny I see what you mean, it's easy to think he was saying something he didn't really mean because he was angry. I didn't think I had biblical grounds for my divorce, and carried guilt for over 3 years until I met with my pastor last week. I encourage you to go, too, divorce is taking the two that became one, and dividing into two again, such a painful thing. It felt like losing an arm that I really needed! They can help you find solace and comfort and lighten this heavy burden.
About the second thing, the folks who care about you will be able to put it in perspective. And anyone who chooses to judge you without hearing your side is loosing out.
Thank you BlairBluefin. I am looking forward to the separation and just hoping it is not a financial train wreck (that I can find a job).
NewEveryDay: If he would have said that to me before or during the wedding it would have been one thing - I would NOT have presumed he didn't fully mean it. He only said that to me after the wedding.
Also, he was fully aware that once I entered the commitment of marriage, my faith did not permit a divorce. He has also said to one of his family members that he could basically do anything because I couldn't leave him (divorce).
I just feel so deceived and defrauded right now. To think he knew all this upfront and intentionally stole my time and all the energy I expended to keep my marriage on track the best I could, and the painful path I walked for so many years. There never was a real offer of marriage - he never intended to participate with me in one.
Thank you for the encouragement on the other issue.