Hello all,

I am new to the forum, but have been doing a lot of reading. Please give me a moment to explain my situation.

My wife and I have been married for 13 years, together for 15. We have a daughter who is 6.

When I first met my wife she was just out of a relationship with another man. He was in a successful job. We were in graduate school, but I dropped out soon after I met her. But I never told her and pretended to graduate (I think I started to lie to her so that I would feel worthy of her or something, I cannot be sure of my reasons anymore). I got a lower paying job than would be expected of a graduate and hid that from her as well. We got married, she graduated, got a job and everything. I went on with my lies and piled on more to hide original lie. Things came to a head recently and she found out the truth. She has been devastated, to say the least.

Over the past few years, I have argued with her bitterly to keep my secrets. I have driven her away from me. She has said that she no longer loves me and that she is only here for our daughter. Right now, after the truth came out, she says that she cannot even promise me that we will be together next year. Over the past few years she has become increasingly independent of me. She says that it is all my fault for pushing her away and that she forced herself to be independent.

Other than this major failing as a husband, I am a good father and even she acknowledges that. My wife is the love of my life and I cannot see ahead to a life without her. When she found out the truth, she cried as if her heart was breaking, but now she is so calm. I am the one whose mind is a mess right now, and I frankly need some help. I am damaged and break down every time she repeats that she is yet to decide whether she is going to stay.

But I just want to keep my family together right now and hopefully win back her heart with the proper behavior in the future. I have slowly started making amends my informing family and friends of my lies, but I feel I need to do more to keep her.

Please help me. Thanks for any advice.

Welcome to MB, Rampampam!

Your willingness to become an honest person is encouraging. That's one of a woman's top needs, so you're on the right track. Keep it up.

As to the steps to win back her heart:

- 15 hours every week of undivided attention with each other
- Meet those four top needs: Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Sexual Fulfillment
- Eliminate all love busters: demands, disrespect, anger, lies, independent behavior

(If I missed something, hopefully other posters will jump in & help)

You'll probably have to lead the way, but Dr. Harley says that a husband who is willing to do the work is usually very sucessful at winning back his wife. Women are naturally responders, so you've got a great shot!

Read all the material on this site. You may want to introduce it to your wife and see what she thinks. There's a questionnaire, in the "Questionnaires" section called "Marital Problem Analysis." It's a great tool to identify the problem areas in your marriage and work on fixing those first. If your wife is willing to answer the questions, you'll have a clear pathway to falling in love with each other again.

I know it's hard to hear that she hasn't made up her mind. But this is actually VERY GOOD NEWS. It means she hasn't made up her mind to LEAVE.

She is watching. She is hoping you'll come through for her. She is willing to wait and see if things get better.

This is your chance to prove to her that you'll be the husband she always wanted. Owning up to the mistakes of the past (arguing, lies) is a great first step - good for you! Now live a fully integrated life, POJA every decision, meet each others' emotional needs.

If you consistently follow the plan, she'll begin to open up to you.

[caveat]....the only thing that would prevent her opening up would be if she's having an affair. You said she's independent, so it's a possibility. If you suspect an affair, the good posters here will help guide you as to your next steps.

I did ask her to look at the site, and linked to her the policy of radical honesty. she said that while she did agree with the principle of it, it is way too soon for her. she does not want to get into any program without deciding if she is even going to stay.

I wish to work on my own behavior since that is the only thing I feel I can do right now. I don't know how I can even broach the subject of UA time, when she is by herself in the guest room. She works from there and comes out only to care for our daughter's needs. I cannot get her to spend time with me right now.

I don't think an affair is an issue. We are emotionally disconnected from each other for sure though. When she found out about my lies, she said "i wish I had done something wrong too so I could have somehow excused your behavior, but I haven't." She is a kind and strong person and I have always felt insecure when it comes to being worthy of deserving her. I don't know if the last made sense.

Edit : There is one other thing - there are a few things that I have done in the past professionally that I am not proud of doing - nothing criminal though. Somehow I feel telling her those things would even lower her impression of me. She knows that there are some things that I still haven't told her in detail, although the basic facts are out in the open. She wants me to go into detail and lay myself bare before she makes her decision. I am having trouble being that vulnerable without knowing if and how she will judge me for my actions.

RPP:
Okay, consider these two scenarios:

1. You don't disclose to her the additional details you are hiding.

You have promised to be open and honest with her. She eventually finds out (and these kinds of truths have a way of coming to light sooner or later.) How's your credibility with her now?

Further, you have hurt her even more deeply by continuing to deceive her. (The lying is often more painful to discover than the act itself.)

And, deep down, you KNOW you've been dishonest with her. How does this effect your own sense of being an upstanding man and husband?

How about your kids? Parents?


OR


2. You come clean with her. All of it, now. Voluntarily. Without her having suspected or questioned you.

Since you have promised to be totally honest and open with her (often a big EN for women) you are demonstrating that you are willing to do so even though the outcome may be difficult for you.

You are right, she may NOT forgive you. Those undisclosed acts may be the last straw for her, and she may chose to divorce you. However, this is HER CHOICE to make, not yours.

By coming clean, you can apologize for the hurt these actions have caused her and your family. And, you can promise to change your behaviours so that nothing like this can ever happen again. (This is especially useful if you have come up with a list of specific behaviours that you will change.)

Which scenario shows more love and respect for your wife? Is better for your family? Begins to build your personal integrity?



Your call...

In other words, you are still lying to her.

You have made it a lifestyle to lie to people so that think you are someone you are not, correct?

Let me say this - the fact that she is actually somewhat open to a reconciliation after this, means that she wants to know the real you. More lies by omission, and that is the final nail in the coffin. Doesn't matter if you were an axe murderer, tell her the truth. The truth will not kill your marriage but your lies will.

You have to let her know who you really are. Surely, the small details will not make her not love you? You probably think she cannot love you as you are, but you are being given an opportunity.

Schedule a polygraph and let her know the truth. I'm not sure you are capable of telling the truth on your own yet, so get that done. That will go a long way of telling you actually are willing to be honest.

Well, I am not lying to her right now. I actually asked her if it is ok for me to not tell her some things that happened in the past since they are all behind me. I told her I am having trouble with being completely bare about some things.

About the present and the future, I am making the commitment. I am being as transparent as she wishes right now and will continue to do so in the future. But I wish to leave the past be and she insists on knowing everything. I guess the leap of faith on my part is necessary to see if I deserve her.

Have you answered ALL her questions? And be honest with her?

Her question was "Do I know everything?"
My answer was "No."
Her response "Tell me what I don't know"
Mine "I dont know if I can - but it is all in the past and cannot affect the present or future"
Her "Tell me anyway, I need to know before I can decide how to move forward"
Me "I know it is something you will not like, what can I expect from you after you hear it?"
Her "Nothing, I cannot make any promises right now"

This is where we are. I cannot seem to take that final step wondering if I might put the final nail in my marriage.

There is the constant torture of knowing that I am responsible for the sorry state of our marriage. Is it even fair of me to try and keep us together like this? She thinks I have taken her choices away since we have a child to consider.

You are taking her choices away. You are trying to make her stay married to you based on a perception of a man you want to be - and not the man you are.

x 2

You are still wronging your wife. Grow a pair and tell her the truth. If you don't, she will eventually leave or at least emotional ck out and you will be in a loveless marriage aka hell. If you tell her the truth, she may decide to leave but at least the lies are out in the open and perhaps you have a chance to recover. Lies prevent recovery.

Welcome to MB

Are you KIDDING? You want her to give you a guarantee of how she will respond about your past behaviours which she is unaewayre of ( and of which you DO have the benefit of knowing all about, and suspect she won't like...) Wow... that is arrogance to the extreme.

Further, you say you are being honest with her now. NOPE. Just because the events are in the past, doesn't mean she has no right to know about them. And if you are deliberately NOT telling her, then you are deliberately lying to her.

Maybe you should read Joseph's letter. It is about why the one not in the know NEEDS to know. (Its subject is infidelity, but the situation is relevant.)
Can someone link Joseph's letter, please?

RPP:

The ongoing lying is much worse, much more painful, to a betrayed spouse (and you have betrayed your wife with your past actions) than the action itself.
She has told you she needs to know. Respect her wish. Time to come clean.

Thanks all. I will let you know how it goes after we talk. Maybe I will send her a link to this discussion to see if she has something to add...

Rampampam

The only way you will even have a remote chance of saving your marriage is to be radically honest about everything. Secondly, you should brainstorm how you can make it up to her (just compensation).

You tricked her into marrying you under false pretenses. She thought she was marrying a focused person who followed through on his education, a person who was her equal in that. And she thought you would have the means to provide a certain lifestyle for her and her future children, maybe you made it seem that she could be a stay-at-home mom for her future children. She also thought, that you were a person who cared about her happiness at least as much as about his own happiness.

What she got was a person who did not follow through with his education and worse, lied about it. You were not as educated as she thought and not making the money you said you were making. You tricked her into marrying by impersonating an attractive mate, but you were actually a con man, who would sacrifice her right to choose a mate on the altar of what he thought was best for himself.

You say you do not know why you did it, but it was obviously self-serving while blatantly ignoring her right to decide about her own life. It is her decision to make if she wants this marriage anulled.

The good thing is, that you can change and will become a better person in the process. Tell her what you are willing to do as just compensation and then start doing it yesterday. It is your only chance at marriage and at life.

And if you keep doing these kind of things to people in your job and privatly, you will end in a bad place. Honesty is freeing. Set yourself free.

I know it is semantics, but I was pursuing a Ph.D. degree which is quite hard and rigorous. Dropping out of the program like that is not a big deal and I wish I had done the right thing and told her. I had a decent job and was making good money, so finances were not a problem as well. But of course, the original lie sprouted a host of other lies and it just seemed to take on a life of its own. I just wanted to be admired by her and it just snowballed out of control - I don't think my intentions were ever malicious.

I definitely deceived her and lied to her. I am going to try and make it right. I have started telling family and friends about my duplicity. I have committed to being as open as she wants. After hearing all your views, I am going to answer her questions when we get together for a talk.

I can only hope i have not caused irreparable damage. I hope there is a future together for us.

Thanks for your candid views. I guess I was too wrapped up in myself to do right by my wife.

Good for you, RamPam.

You can do this. Won't be easy. But you can do this.

Fair enough, she's not enthusiastic about committing to you before she sees evidence of real change. So you don't push it, good call.

Steve Harley told me (during counseling) that I don't have to "commit" to stay for my H to work the program. That feeling would come after my H showed behaviors that consistently met my ENs and avoided withdrawals. So, coming completely clean with your W will be a big step in the right direction.

UA time: You can just start planning dates: Ask her out 4 times per week, get a sitter yourself, plan something fun that she would enjoy too (POJA what you do together, without calling it POJA - just ask, "how would you feel about going to [fill in blank]?")

4-4 hour dates would be 16 hours...no need to call it "UA TIME" - just do it! You'll both be in love soon (if you avoid love busters & and meet ENs)!

I agree with Catwhit. You can do this!

Motives and intentions don't drain people's love banks. Actions do. But you know this now, so keep going!


In the words of the immortal Yoda: "Try Not. Do, or Do Not. There is no TRY."

Well, we had our talk. I wrote a bunch of stuff down and gave it to her and she asked me further questions. The only thing I have not told her yet is some very specific details like people names and contact information. She says she would appreciate that information in case she feels like checking up on me, but I am not sure if those people need to be involved (I am not comfortable with her calling and talking to them about personal/private topics). But if she insists, I will give her the information - it is already down on paper.

But I do have another question and need some advice - out of the blue she came up with a question about something that I had not done and she now feels like I did do this. I do not know how to convince her that I did not do it. There seems to be no way to verify the truth, so it is just my word vs what she feels. How can I deal with this? I now wonder what else is on her mind and what she really feels about me.

Unfortunately, in one of our conversations, I did get a little upset and could not maintain my cool. That did not go well, but we talked about it later and I apologized - for whatever that is worth. Couple of other times we have both been emotional and I not sure if that is a good thing or not, but that was mostly when we were talking about the future (or lack of it).

Any comments?

Radical Honesty. Transparency. New way of life.

Take a polygraph for her. That will show her you are completely willing to get out the truth and turn a new leaf.

You owe her the complete and absolute truth. She has a right to all this information, so stop trying to play head games with her. If you want to ever be trusted again, give her this information now and stop playing cat and mouse games with her. Don't pretend like you are being forthcoming while you CONTINUE to withhold basic facts. What is the point of this exercise if you do that??


You can't convince her becuase you know and she knows you will lie. And still LIE even today!! In the last paragraph you are still withholding truth.


She feels you are a liar because you are. And even when you make an effort to be forthcoming, you STILL are deceitful. I would start by telling her the full truth and then offering to take a polygraph.


Sorry you caused more damage to your relationship by getting angry.

I offered the polygraph, but she refused. She said she would not trust the results based on what she believes. I might take it anyway and send her the results.

I did not offer the information about the contacts because she did not insist, but I do have it ready if she asks for it again. I am trying to avoid love busters, but I did slip up.

I had another question - my wife is discussing all the details with her family and I am uncomfortable with this. I don't mind telling them the broad details, but she is sharing all the intimate details. I feel even if we reconcile and go on to have a good marriage, I will have been alienated from them for ever. I do not wish this, so I was wondering if it would be ok for me to ask her not to do this. What level of privacy is fair to expect (not privacy between us), but keeping the details of the marriage private?

Thanks for all your comments. The tone might be harsh, but it is nothing that I do not deserve.

EDIT : I also need some details about Just Compensation. I see it is common in marriages recovering from affairs, but I feel the effect on my wife has been similar to me having an affair. What is fair Just Compensation in general? Thanks.

Good idea. Go for it!
She shouldn't have to "insist" on your radical honesty. In good faith, you should divulge every single detail. That's what radical honesty is: not waiting for the other person to "push" you or "dig it out of you" or some such. You voluntarily offer all information - past, present, and future - about your actions, thoughts, plans and dreams. Otherwise, you're not really being "radically honest."
Again, that sneaky word "try." Go and LB no more

Great question! This is a POJA issue. "Never do ANYTHING unless your spouse enthusiastically agrees." This means she tells her family NOTHING. It protects each of you from the others' thoughtless acts. Her telling her family is hurting you. She should stop.

I'd say (though other MB'ers may have a more informed opinon):
- You be radically open and honest in the future (Never lie or withold information again. Ever.)
- Put in place extraordinary precautions (give her every means to check up on you at all times)
- Follow the POJA
- Build a romantic relationship, using the 15 hours of UA time as your foundation for meeting each others' needs

By the way, not only is dishonesty a Love Buster, some women have a strong Emotional Need for honesty too. You might review the info about EN of Honesty on the web site for additional insight into it. It probably ranks up there for her almost as high as sexual fulfillment might rank for you: without it, you almost don't feel like marriage is worth it. (just speculating, here)

Keep going! Good luck.

Stop with the games. She already asked you for the truth so don't make her ask again.


The more people who know, the more people to hold you accountable and give her support.

Here is Dr Harley's article on just compensation: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

And here are his thoughts about exposure of bad behavior. He very much advocates your wife's exposure of your behavior:

"As you probably already know, I'm a strong advocate of honesty and openness in marriage. I call it transparency -- letting your spouse know everything about you, especially your faults. But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable." http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=9&sublink=584

Thank you Zhamila and MelodyLane. I will give her my list.

Now you did have slightly differing perspectives on the privacy issue. Everyone knows - mostly from me - what I have done and how I have hurt my wife. So they will always watch me in the future.

I have been reading the "exposing the wayward spouse" forum posts and it pretty much seems limited to telling everyone that the spouse had an affair. Do the other people need to know the all the intimate details that the betrayed spouse does? My wife said that she has the right to talk to anyone about anything considering what I have done. She said that women talk and that I should get that into my thick head...

Anyways, I want her to stop, but I feel unable to ask her based on my past behavior. Still unable to ask her to do anything with me. I asked if she wanted to get lunch (or a movie) with me, she said she would think about it but did not follow through.

You can read Dr Harley's words and he clearly does not limit exposure to infidelity, but to bad behavior in general. This is not private information about your marriage, but hurtful things you have done to her. The more people who know, the better. Hopefully it will help you become an honest person some day.

As it is, you STILL persist in lying to your wife so she needs as much support as she can get.

Dr Bill Harley: "But should that level of openness carry into the public arena? I believe that it should in cases of extreme irresponsibility, and that certainly includes infidelity. When you have done something very hurtful to someone else, others should know about it. Such exposure helps prevent a recurrence of the offense. Your closest friends and relatives will be keeping an eye on you -- holding you accountable."

See? He does not limit exposure to infidelity but to "hurtful" behavior. Such exposure "helps prevent a recurrence of the offense."

"Anyways, I want her to stop, but I feel unable to ask her based on my past behavior. Still unable to ask her to do anything with me. I asked if she wanted to get lunch (or a movie) with me, she said she would think about it but did not follow through."

Maybe you should stop being dishonest first?