This is my first post.

My husband and I married two years ago. I had been widowed for seven years and he'd been divorced for five. This is my second marriage and his third. We were highschool sweethearts who went steady for almost three years. I broke up with him before graduation and both went on to lead separate lives with no contact until we connected at our hs reunion four years ago.

We had a whirlwind courtship where both shed many tears at the miracle of finding one another again. He told me he'd never
gotten over our original breakup and had thought about me for years. He was incredibly romantic and said and did things for me that I'd never experienced with previous husband, who was often abusive and sexually cold. I felt very blessed to have met and married someone who loved me so much at this later stage of my life.

Everything was great for the first year or so, including our sex life. My husband is incredibly active and fit with the urge and ability of a much younger man. I thought he was happy with things in that area, although I also knew that he was much more sexually experienced than I was, and had slept with over 25 women before we met again. He also was a porn user and knew I didn't approve, but he always said as long as things were good in that area he had no need for it. End of discussion.

After about a year or so of marriage, he told me he was unhappy with our sex life -- that I was prudish and didn't know how to make love to a man. He wanted more sex, and more varieties of sex and felt that because I wasn't more adventurous, that I didn't love him or care about his happiness. I was blown away by this revelation because we were having sex up to four times a week and I thought it was good. He told me to work at improving in that area because he didn't want to settle for "a marriage without passion." I told him I felt very passionate about him and found him very desirable but he just wouldn't listen. I felt scared and off balance with all this because in my first marriage my husband was also very critical and judgmental, although not about sex. My first marriage, in fact, was pretty much sexless.

So I tried harder to meet my new husband's needs but wound up getting utis. I found him uncaring when this would happen, as though it was a hindrance and an inconvenience. Gradually, I began not looking forward to our romantic encounters because I felt he was either unsatisfied or judging me. He wanted me to wear dresses more often, sunbathe naked with him, and just be more free, and to watch porn with him. I grew up in the 50s and 60s and was not sexually adventurous. I did wear dresses from time to time in the house but never felt really comfortable doing so. BTW I never asked him for anything except more UA time.

It's not that his requests were particularly weird or out of line, more that I felt sex was all he focused on. He didn't seem to value me for anything outside of that. I'm a great cook and a family person, but he would rather eat pizza or fish sticks. He didn't care to spend time with my family out of town , and would complain when I'd leave for brief trips that I should be there with him ( and presumably having sex). (My mom is 88 years old and not well so these were necessary trips and he always had the option to come along).

He is a loner and would spend from 6 am to about 2:00 in the afternoon on exercising, reading his computer and other solitary pursuits. I often requested more UA time but he didn't comply - again presumably because he felt I hadn't earned it through sex. In order to keep him in the room with me sometimes, I had to watch his TV shows; if I put something on that I was interested in , he'd leave the room.

Since Christmas, he's said "I love you" less and less and seems irritated at slight things. We were still having sex three or four times a week but again, not the "hot" sex he wanted I suppose.

Last week we had a brief tiff, when I got a leg cramp and he completely ignored my pain, not even asking why I was moaning or offering a massage. The next morning he left for the cottage out of town and gave me the silent treatment for four days. It's not the first time this has happened. I don't have any children and am alone except for him so I found this action very hurtful.

I understand a man's need for sex in order to feel loved, but this wasn't a sexless marriage. I feel his priorities are out of line and he should be grateful that we found one another again, are both still healthy (in our early 60s) and can offer one another care and companionship.

I am hurt and feel he promised me love but it became conditional on sex. I am 62 years old! How would he react if I got sick and couldn't have sex??? I feel unsafe and unloved.
I tried so hard to fit my life into his, be kind to his kids, was there for him during two major heath scares, but all that matters to him is sex.

Any thoughts?

I forgot to add that when he came back after four days of silent treatment he told me he was unhappy again and that our marriage lacked chemistry and passion. I told him I loved him and do so enjoy our intimacy, but he keeps telling me how I should feel/behave instead of listening to me. He says I don't act like "normal" women in bed. All I can think of when he says these things is that he's watched too much porn over the years.

I am a quiet and spiritual person who loves and feel deeply. When I am with him I am just so grateful to have him with me, but he doesn't seem to get it. How can we be at such cross purposes?

PS I don't lay there like a board either.
Don't roll my eyes and stare at the ceiling. I am affectionate, make sounds (sorry tmi) and ask him to stay with me afterwards
( which he doesn't really like to do).

Welcome to MB.

Is he still watching porn?

When he left for the cottage for four days, did he talk to you? Or you went the four days not hearing from him at all? Why didn't you go to the cottage with him?

BB, one of the biggest problems I see here is that your husband is watching porn. That is what is causing your husbands dissatisfaction but I don't think you guys understand how damaging it is to your marriage. When your husband seeks sexual satisfaction outside of marriage, it means he has a new point of comparison. You are competing with 18 year old porn stars and as long as you are competing with porn stars, you will always lose because you are a normal, natural 60 year old woman.

If he would eliminate the porn altogether and learn to seek sex only from you, it would feel bland at first, but he would start to get great enjoyment. But as long as you are competing with 18 year old porn stars, that will never happen.

Another important dynamic that is going on here is that he is setting you up for a serious sexual aversion and if you don't stop that train, it will be much harder to fix. Everytime you have sex with him when you don't feel like it [and I can see why you would not feel like it] or you do something with him you don't enjoy, you will become more and more sexually averse. Pretty soon you won't be able to bear to have him touch you; it will really be that bad.

STOP having sex with him when you don't feel like it. And don't agree to acts that you don't like.

A woman needs 2 things to desire sex with her husband: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. Your husband is ruining both of those aspects by not spending time meeting your emotional needs and by not making sure that you are satisfied.

I really want you to understand this dynamic because it is ruining your marriage so I am suggesting you read these articles and come back here to discuss:

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

Start reading Dr Harley's basic concepts here and get the books His Needs Her Needs, Lovebusters, and 5 steps to Romantic Love. One of Dr H important policies in marriage is what he calls The Policy of Joint Agreement. Following this policy is the only way to make marital adjustments to one another. You don't want to simply go along to get along. And you don't want to comply with his requests to avoid his lovebusters. Otherwise you will fall out of love with him.

Your husband is demonstrating the lovebusters: Disrespectful Judgements, Selfish Demands and a quiet form of a Angry Outburst through withdrawal and not demonstrating thoughtfulness towards you.

Dr Harley describes marriage as a relationship of extraordinary care. Likely the porn has distorted your husbands perspective towards you. Lots of men list attractive wife and SF as top emotional needs but do not use LB to have the needs met.

I'm sure there will be veterans of this site coming along with more specific advise.

I wish you all the best.

Thanks everyone:

I suspect he still looks at porn as a year or so ago I found two porn pics on his computer. I think he looks at it when I'm visiting my mom or when he feels justified. He adamantly refuses to discuss his porn use with me and says it's not my business and there's nothing wrong with it. He also get upset if I comment on too much on oeversexualized images on TV. Once he called me whacky for having these views.

Brainhurts: I didn't know he was going to the cottage. I went out to run errands and when I came back he was gone. And no he did not call me or email in four days, although I did email to ask when he was coming back.

I will have go look at the rest of the posts and the POJA stuff.

My heart feels broken because he was my lost love from high school and I can't believe he's not happy just by virture of the fact that we found one another after so many years. But maybe that's because I'm thinking like a woman and not a man??

You are thinking like a married person who expects to be loved and cared for in marriage. That is the expectation of every married person. Your husband has failed miserably in that regard. And that is largely because his head is full of 18 year old porn stars.

Of course you have a right to know everything he does. You are his wife! You have a right to know if he is gawking at porn. You have a right to know EVERYTHING.

When you get married, the competition with other females should close. In your case, it has not ended and is wrecking your marriage.

Imagine if you went window shopping for your needs to be met online?

"Hey, Plenty of Fish/ Match.com guys - anyone here make more money than my husband? Anyone a better conversationalist? More romantic? Can you point me in the direction of the much younger men who have a great deal of energy for home repairs and foot massage? Thank you!"

I just never thought this would be a problem at our age - an age when you're supposed to be appreciating and loving one another because frankly, you just never know when someone could drop dead.

He's a good man in many other respects, handles everything around the house and is a good dad, with good kids. He worked his way up from nothing as a kid and has done well financially. He did come from a very cold and neglectful family, where his mom was unaffectionate and lacking in normal maternal love. I suspect she had a mental illness.

Even so...

He says he so attracted to me etc so why isn't that enough to have a good sex life and especially when you're supposed to be in love with the "girl you lost in high school?"

I a beside myself with all this because he walked out on two previous marriages due to similar issues.

We never had sex in highschool just petting. When we got back together late in life he made an issue about that too -- that I was the only girl in school who wouldn't put out and wouldn't do that for him.

Can you put some spyware on his computer/phone? I believe he's still looking at porn.

Did you read the articles, BB?

Yes I read them Melody. I don't have a sexual aversion to him and have never had issues with sex before this. It's mostly his attitude about our whole marriage hinging on that one thing. It means I have no "ammo" -- by that I mean I can't make him happy by serving good food (told me if he wanted an apple pie he could buy one), making a nicely decorated home, a garden or any of the other things I do well. He just doesn't care about those things.

He also said I could have a dog when we married and then reneged. Again I think it's because he doesn't feel I "deserve" it.

I'm not sure I could get him to POJA anything at this point. He heart has hardened - he says he's been asking me to change (get better at sex) for almost two years and I haven't tried.

He is very controlling too. I'm not allowed to have a window open at night because it disturbs his sleep. Also get hassled if I cough at night because it disturbs his sleep. And he sulks if I put on pajamas because if I cared I'd sleep nude. Sigh.

Please listen to these clips about pornography.

Radio Clip About Pornography
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

You are both creating an incompatible marriage by proposing win/lose solutions. That is funny that you call him "controlling" because you can't "control" him about sleeping with the window open or force him to have a dog.

Win/lose strategies wreck marriages because they make the marriage incompatible. Marriage Builders proposes win/win solutions, rather than sacrifice.

Listened to the clips. My H would have nothing but scorn for Dr Harley's views on porn. He (husband) thinks it a harmless outlet and also no one's business but his. I tried to have a discussion with him about it before we married but he got very tense with me on the subject. I've not asked him much about it since because it always causes an issue. Having said that I always wonder when or if he's looking at it when he comes to bed later than me, or when I am away visiting mom or now, because he's not happy with our sex life.

Do you want to disturb his sleep? If he agreed to sleep with the window open, he would be unhappy and pretty soon want to sleep elsewhere. Trying to force your desires on him never works. He makes you unhappy when he does this so surely you can see that he will be unhappy if do it to him?


It disturbs my husband too. And since I don't want to disturb him, I take cough syrup before I go to bed.


This is an example of him attempting to force his will on you even though it makes you unhappy. This is an example of win/lose. He wants to gain at your expense. Those types of agreements create resentment and incompatibility.

If you send Dr Harley an email describing the problem he will offer to speak to your husband. Dr Harley is very persuasive and might be able to help. You can write him via the radio link above. It is all free and he will even send you a free book!

Interesting point Melody. I only asked to have the window open occasionally and was hoping he would POJA that, but no. On the dog issue, I haven't pressed it but he did say I could have one and now doesn't want one.

I do believe sacrifice results in resentment, and I think my H feels he's sacrificing a good sex life by staying with me and now feels resentful.

If he doesn't like something, it should not be forced on him. It should be dropped. Just because he thought it was a good idea to have a dog at one time, does not mean he likes that idea now, though. The POJA means to reach agreements that are ENTHUSIASTIC, not reluctant agreements. Capitulation and sacrifice lead to incompatible marriages so he should not agree to anything that makes him unhappy.

My H and I don't "poja" an open window at night, for example, because he knows I hate that. It would be a lovebuster to continually bring up an idea that I hate. See what I mean? If he dislikes the idea, then drop it or find a solution that makes you BOTH happy.


BECAUSE his mind is warped by the porn. Remove the porn and you can create a happy sex life.

That's exactly what I was concerned about. It also makes sense that he's other 2 marriage ended due to his addiction to porn.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

The policy of joint agreement holds that anytime a spouse becomes not enthusiastic about an agreement, that the agreement is dropped and a new one is negotiated. So if he was enthusiastic about a dog yesterday but not today, then you go back to the drawing board.

Also, please read these.
Addiction to Pornography #1
What to Do When Your Spouse Has an Addiction to Pornography Letter #2

Makes me wonder though, that if he thought he was getting the amount and variety of sex he wanted, that he would have got me a dog or open window no problem. He even said that if I gave him what he wanted in the bedroom I would be surprised how far it would get me -- which only made me feel like that's my only value to him.

Maybe I'm not grateful enough for having someone who desires me at my age and wants to make love to me??? I am very confused and feel guilty -- much like I felt in my previous marriage, but for other reasons.

I am grateful for him and for this second chance -- I don't want to mess it up but fear I already have caused him to lose love for me.

Did you read the porn addiction articles I posted? He has the contrast effect. Did you read about the contrast effect?

As long as he addicted to porn, he will keep comparing (contrast effect) you to the porn stars.

We have husbands on the boards that had porn addiction and their wives were extremely neglected. They have used MB and turned their marriages around. They had to stop their porn addiction and gawking at women.

Will your husband stop his porn addiction?

I have no idea . He is very independent and has probably learned this behavior through two other marriages and a childhood where he had to learn to self-soothe because his parents were emotionally distant.

I think he'd be resentful of me for asking him to stop. Or he would stop if I would be the sexual partner he wants -- but I'm not totally sure about that.

He doesn't gawk at other women as far as I know - at least not in front of me. I explained to him about the contrast effect a long time ago but he thought I was being ridiculous. The problem is, I don't know when or how often he looks at porn. Only that he has in the past and doesn't think it's a problem.

I really think the central issue is that he believes a woman needs to show love to her husband by being the sexual partner he needs. And he thinks I'm neglecting him in that area. He says he no longer trusts me to be able to be that person for him because he's been asking for change for so long.

And he's told me in the past he thinks I am "f'd up" (his words) about sex.

That really hurt.

Can you do this so you know?

There are numerous problems with a marriage with porn. The biggest problem right now is that you don't like it, and he doesn't want to stop. Most women don't like it when their H engages in porn.

Porn is causing him to think about all the other ways he could be having sex that most women who are married would find repulsive and unromantic. He's comparing porn sex and porn women to married sex and his wife. Married sex can be wonderfully rewarding, but it will appear very lackluster to a man who engages in porn.

Does he also masturbate to porn?

Please don't be so grateful to him for "giving you a chance." Dr. Harley has said on his radio show that, in truth, men need women more than vice versa. And that a man needs to do all he can to win and keep his wife. Women can easily live a very rewarding happy life as a single, whereas men don't do nearly as well. They are often less happy and less healthy and die younger. Hold your bar high.

I guess I'm scared of being alone again at 62. My first marriage was very unhappy and my H was verbally abusive. I still felt devastated when he died though, because I'd been married since I was 19.

I would rather just ask him outright if he's still looking at porn. I believe he will tell me the truth, although he won't like being asked.

But will he tell you the truth? It would be a good idea to get a keylogger and find out for yourself what he's doing online.

I totally understand about the fear of being alone. When I was looking at divorce after my H's affair three years ago, I was afraid, too. I'm so glad, and he is, too, that he completely turned around in his behavior towards me. Now he's incredibly caring and loving. He used to be into porn and masturbation, independent behavior and treated me like I was a nuisance. I can't imagine going back to live that way again.

Find the unmistakable evidence of porn, and keep it hidden someplace safe. Then tell your H you know what he's doing and that you don't like it and would like for him to stop.

If he refuses, then you should call Dr. Harley, as MelodyLane suggested. The Harleys are wonderfully respectful and helpful and Dr. Harley is very persuasive. He will give you great help.

Does he masturbate? I didn't see the answer to that question.

Will you email Dr. Harley?

Yes

Yes he masturbates, but I don't know when. He admitted he does this.

There is another issue in all this -- and that is my religion. My H is agnostic and doesn't go to church with me. He did at the beginning, which I thought was wonderful, but he stopped when he began thinking about our sex problems. He believes I'm prudish and uptight and don't know what I'm missing with respect to sex.

He is now treating more like a roommate than his wife. Not much affection and not asking for intimacy. This is very scary for me because my H is a very sexually driven person.

You see, the other good reason for getting a keylogger is that he might be visiting prostitutes or having an affair. Given his complete sexual abandonment of you lately, prostitutes seem very likely to me. Also, you mentioned getting UTIs, and these might be something that you are picking up from another woman.

Please stop resisting this and download one already! Get eblaster from SpectorPro. You will need to use a credit or debit card to buy the software so you must make sure your H never sees the credit card statement on which the purchase appears. If he checks all statements then you must buy a pre-paid card to pay for it.

You need to have administrator privileges on your PC in order to install the blaster.

Does anyone here have any comments about the amount of time he spends on his own pursuits?

From about 6 in the am to 2:00 he is busy exercising, then reading on his computer, then juicing his lunch (which means we never have lunch together). Then it's TV time, which he spends watching shows I don't particularly enjoy but I do it anyway since he gets annoyed if I object. There is little conversation during this part of the day (6-2:00). I often feel lonely and have told him about it but he has yet to cut back on his alone time.

At times I wonder why he married me since he enjoys his own company so much and only seems to require sex. He thinks he treats me like a princess since he never asks for anything else besides this and doesn't need me to cook etc.

This is why I feel guilty about things.

He never leaves the house so I don't think there's anything going on right now.

There could be internet sex.

I don't know why you are so resistant to secretly checking what he does online for all those hours. If there is a problem that you don't know about you are barking up the wrong tree trying to solve a different one. (Porn is a huge problem, of course, but I think there might be more than that, or the porn use is more extensive than you realise.)

To answer your question: I don't think he is married at all. He lives like a single man. I don't know why he is married if he wants to live the way he does. I know that you'd be dismayed to have to divorce again at 62, but this isn't married life.

Let's be really clear about this point; he is the one with the problem, not you.

When a man looks at porn, the contrast effect causes him to see his wife as a source of sex that is a lot more bother that the easy gratification of porn. So, he tries to turn you into an easy trick, too. Being a real person, you can not compete with a fantasy.

Your husband's porn use constitutes a secret second life. Maintaining a secret second life is incompatible with having a healthy marriage. His porn use has to end, or your marriage will. This is all on him. It's not your fault.

Ugh this is what I've felt for awhile now - that he lives like a single man.

But if I just gave him all the sex he wanted wouldn't it solve all the problems? He says this is what he needs to be happy and feel close and have real intimacy with me.

Maybe I have it all backwards - if I did what he wanted, he wouldn't use porn (he mentioned this once).

Maybe then he's want to spend more time with me and less on his solitary pursuits. I'm so confused.

You need to stop pondering and discussing and taker action. Spying is the first step, to find out what is going on.

That is, unless you want to give up now and tell him to leave. That's what I would do, given the picture you've painted, but if you don't want to end the marriage you need to find out what you're dealing with.

Sugarcane why would you ask him to leave if you were me? Because of possible porn use, or the DJs, or his solitary ways??

He was so sweet and kind in the beginning - said he would be my rock and always protect me.

If I ask him to leave I suspect it would be over.

If you gave him all the sex he wants, it wouldn't solve the problems. Do you enjoy sex the way he wants? If not, then you shouldn't do it that way. The way making love ought to work in a marriage is that the person with the higher needs enjoys frequent sex, but the person with the lower need makes love in the way he/she enjoys. It's about both spouses feeling happy and fulfilled.

And the problem with the porn and masturbation is that it creates a powerful contrast effect that works against you, the real life woman in front of him. Masturbation requires no work at all on his part - quick and easy and satisfying. Porn also requires nothing on his part - quick and easy gratification with a bunch of air brushed women selected for their various appealing attributes. There's no way a real live woman can compete.

And the kind of sex a man into porn usually wants? Oral, and um...other stuff that most women don't enjoy and many find repulsive. Oral sex is very stimulating to a man and that in itself can create a contrast effect, making the "usual" way of making love seem boring.

So is your husband asking you to make love in ways that show you his care and love for you? No! He wants sex in ways that are gratifying for him and not for you.

The problem with masturbation is that, in general, it tends to make a man a rather crappy lover. They orgasm too quickly, because that's what the habit has taught his reflexes. This effect will usually disappear in a couple or three weeks if masturbation completely ends.

These two things need to end as a start to fixing the problems in your marriage.

A really big love buster in marriage is independent behavior -acting as though your spouse doesn't exist. But a marriage is the blending of two people. There is no room at all in a good marriage for independent behavior.

Can you do this^^^^^?

Not easily - I'm not the administrator on his computer and it would be suspicious if I made such a request. He has a Blackberry phone and so wouldn't use that for porn.

I know he looks at porn when I'm away (he told me that long ago). I just don't know if he's doing it now or to what extent.

Again TMI but I was ok with gratifying him orally. I just didn't want to do anything on the um other end. I find that very offputting. He asked me to do that when we first married but I refused and he eventually stopped asking. I think it's still on his mind though.

I think what he really wants is for me to be the aggressor, and to have sex all over the house. I never had a problem with any of that -- what I have a problem with is him making sex the be all and end all of our relationship. It makes me wonder what he would do if I were to get sick and couldn't have sex. He would be a very unhappy and resentful man and might even shove me into a nursing home. You tend to think about stuff like this in your 60s - at least I do.

Well that should be a big clue about the type of man you are married to. Three wives are all prudes and f-ed up sexually? Yeah right.

Why did you marry him knowing he walked out on two marriages for such a reason? Did he cheat on his ex-wives?

Yes he could be looking at porn on his BlackBerry. You can look up porn on any smart phone.

Do you use the same computers at home? You should be able to put a keylogger on when he is "working out" for 8 hours.

Bluebird,

What do you want to do about this? You can stay under these conditions, but it's not much of a marriage. Do you understand this? He is not acting with any care at all towards you.

You can stay; no one here is telling you that the only answer is to leave...but it might be to separate if he refuses to meet your own ENs and continues his independent behavior. Continuing to demand sex in a way that you don't want is a selfish demand. When you don't do what he wants the way he wants, he punishes you by ignoring you and/or telling you that this is all because you the problem for not complying with his selfish demands.

Have you read this article on why women leave men?

Here

Please read the article, if you haven't already, and let us know what you think about Dr. Harley's thoughts on this.

Excellent article. This is exactly how I feel he is treating me - as though I were only one room in his life.

My deceased husband was abusive and although not dx, (he refused counseling) displayed NPD traits. He was also verbally and at times physically abusive. I stayed because it's very hard to leave a narcissist once your self-esteem and confidence are gone. Once he became ill, I definitely knew I had to stay until the end.

I vowed I'd never be treated with disrespect again and yet here I am with another selfish man.

He left his first wife after three years of marriage, because she stopped taking bc without telling him and got pregnant. He also says her spending was out of control.

He stayed in his second marriage for 17 years and had two kids. He claims the marriage fell apart when she lost interest in sex after the children and refused counseling. I never asked if he cheated on her during that time.

I have to admit I thought the two divorces were "red flags" but I was silly in love with my lost love from highschool and perhaps in a bit of denial.

Can you contact his XW and ask them their side of the story?

Not possible - H would consider that a huge betrayal. I will ask him myself when things cool down a bit.

But then you'll only get his side of the story. And he's going to spin it in his favor, of course.

Dr. Harley recommends finding out all one can about a potential spouse before marrying. We are to get to know his parents, siblings, friends, and find out from ex-wives what they can tell about him. That way a woman has a good picture from others points of view of what she is getting herself into.

I think it's pretty interesting that your husband would find your questioning his ex-wives a betrayal, but not consider his treatment of his wife a betrayal of his wedding vows to love, honor, and cherish. Oh, well...

Anyway, Marriage Builders about creating a plan to restore love in a marriage. It's also about creating a plan in the event of spousal neglect.

So it would be a really good idea to find out what's really going in your marriage:

1.) Install a keylogger onto your H's computer/phone. If you can't do it, hire someone who can. You will then have the real truth.

2.) If you can get in touch with his ex-wives, call them and ask them if they would mind sharing with you why they got divorced from your husband.

This pieces of information will help you know what's really going on and the kind of man you married.

There are lots of reasons why women stay trapped in a bad marriage where they are unhappy. I was one of them for a long while. I was young with a child. Later on it was because I was young, with a child, and living overseas. After that it was all those reasons, plus I didn't have a college degree and didn't know how to support myself.

Later it was because I was older - in my forties. Later on it was because I was fifty. There was always some reason/excuse to avoid doing something proactive

Then, into this soup of reasons why I couldn't leave my then-nasty, rude husband who didn't take my feelings into account at all and rarely cared for or about me, I was told by the church that I was supposed to submit and forgive. Sigh....I stayed. I stayed and stayed through dishonesty, porn, masturbation, being called bad names because I was upset at his dishonesty over finances, independent decisions, and finally a second affair. If I had found MB years ago, I know what Dr. Harley would have suggested to me:

He would have suggested that I do a great Plan A, set myself up financially, even if it took some time, write him a love letter, then separate. If he wanted me back and agreed to make the necessary changes, then great. We'd have a great marriage. And if he refused, then all I would have lost was a selfish man and a loveless marriage.

But I know I would have dithered and found a thousand excuses not to leave.

The only reason my marriage is so wonderful today is because we both followed the plan laid out by MB. If he had not agreed to do so, there was simply no way I would have been able to stay with the kind of man he was.

What do you want to do, Bluebird? You have received guidance that Dr. Harley would have suggested and you have found reasons to not do as suggested. What do you want from Marriage Builders?

Long way thanks for providing more clarity. Actually thanks to everyone.

I'm going to e-mail the Harleys. I will also ask H about his porn use and look into installing a key logger.

Being here has given me much needed perspective on my situation. My tendency always is to blame myself, get frightened, and then think of a thousand reasons why I should endure bad treatment. I did all of that in my first marriage and it nearly killed me.

The dichotomy between what my husband promised and his actions early in our relationship vs what he is giving out now is so strong it's almost bringing me to my knees. I am now wondering if I'm involved with another man with a personality disorder.

I really feel heartbroken.

This is concerning. Start snooping. If your H doesn't want to get on board to improve your marriage, then you need to decide what you want to do. Being married and alone is worse than being alone IMO.

It would be best if you just install a keylogger. I doubt he will tell you the whole truth. You really need to find out what he's doing. A lot of people here have used eblaster from specterpro with great success. It's supposed to be very easy to install and be just about undetectable. Check out the Operation Investigate forum, okay?

I'm glad you will be emailing the Harleys. Please let the moderators know if you don't hear from them in a few days. Sometimes their mail goes to spam.


Bad marriages are a big cause of depression in many women. It's really awful for our health to endure a bad marriage.


He knows how to be nice, but he chooses to think more of himself and his pleasures than he does of his wife. I'm not sure that's a personality disorder.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I know it's hard....

Bluebird,
The fact that your husband slept around with the girls at your high school and had at least 25 sexual encounters between his 2nd and 3rd marriage says a lot about his regard for women. We see this in how he treats you as nothing more than a sexual object, and he manipulates you by punishing you for not meeting his unreasonable and selfish sexual needs.

His independent behavior will destroy any love you have for him over time. Are you familiar with the Love Bank concept? Yours is going to be empty soon.

Longwayfromhome has suggested that men need women more than vice versa, and I understand that. But in your husband's case, this does not apply because he has probably always operated as a desperado.

I don't think he's marriage material.

I think ML's suggestion of having him talk to Dr. Harley is your best chance, but based on the things you've said about him, I doubt he would be open to anything Dr. Harley will suggest. Pity.

I'm very sorry.

The 25 women were between highschool and present day - still I agree that's much more than average for someone of his vintage. It shocked me when he first told me about it and I had him get tested for stds before going any further.

How ironic you should mention the word "desperado". It's one of his favorites by the Eagles and I listended to it many many times with him without ever realizing how it applies to him.

I have no doubt that if we split he will go on to other women and will hurt them in the same way.

He also kept a "bedpost" list of the 25 -- and added my name to it eventually. Found the paper when I was cleaning the cottage one day.

BB51

Listen everyday to marriage builder radio. GREAT way to reprogram your own filter so you don't get caught up in the charm of men that manipulate women. Don't be so desperado yourself. It's easy to be crushed and have our self esteem tied to a our intimate partners perception of us. You now understand at least at some level your husband has a sick view of women. Since you are a woman of faith shift your view and focus to God's loving view of you. That is the real deal.

How utterly demeaning that he would lump his wife with his other 25 conquests. That must have been very hurtful to find. Again, I'm sorry.

It's not ironic that I used the term desperado as I was thinking of that song as I typed it. That Eagles hit is also one of my favorite of theirs. It is too bad that your husband doesn't get moral of the story. Reading your thread, I was struck by how independently he operates as a spouse. Independent Behavior makes the list of one of Dr. Harley's 6 Love Busters, and all of them are death to a marriage if they go unchecked.

Your husband must change or your marriage will die. Let's pray that God will soften his heart and grace will create in him the change needed to be a good husband. See if he will talk to Dr. Harley.

But you are the one with the more complex sex and orgasm mechanism. This is why Dr H coaches men to please THEIR partner. He never tells women to do so, because it is easy to bring a man to orgasm! It's only porn adicts who are hard to please. They feel their wife doesn't match up to a seemingly constantly horny teenager who is paid to be completey undemanding and voluntarily worthless. Well duh.

If you turn into a woman whose sexual favours are paid for with a puppy (seriously?) then you become a prosititute, not a wife. If it's all about turning tricks for his pleasure, and about ignoring yours -then you won't be a married couple at all. it will be an 'arrangement'.

I don't understand how a woman can experience any sexual pleasure when she is having her arm twisted to perform in a certain way as though she has been paid for her time. Women must feel very relaxed and safe and cared for to enjoy sex. They must enjoy an affectionate and integrated life with their husband. The emphasis must also be on their sexual pleasure, not their husband's.

Porn has turned your husband into a needy, greedy baby who completely overlooks your needs. If you snoop, you will find the porn and then you can insist on its elimination.

Once this is done you may see an improvement in his overall attitude. It's hard to be a caring man when you view women as smiling undemanding porn objects so frequently.

However judging by his independent social behaviour in which no regard is shown for your time and pleasure he may just be a horribly selfish man through and through.

I've just divorced one of those and found it remarkably easy to replace him with someone affectionate.


You are right to worry about this. I volunteered in a retirement home recently and I was shocked at the number of seniors who parted ways or had affairs after more than 50 years together. Their marriages were based on one need - usually sex or FS and when the spouse retired, or got sick they were unceremoniously turfed out of the marriage. Or the WS found someone in the home who met two needs which trumped the one.

Without affection you will be miserable. Affection lets us know we are safe, cared for and protected. That we are important to our husbands.

What's more is that women do very well on their own, and find it easier to remarry at any age much more so than men. Wouldn't you rather be alone than so unhappily married? Or at least try to tackle your husband's addiction?

I don't know any woman who enjoys the act I think you're hinting at. Lets call it the other end or OE, as you term it. I have some VERY open minded friends and although I know women who have tried it, I don't know one who liked it or was able to put up with continuing it. Interestingly the women all broke up with the men who had asked for it - even when they were OK with not trying it again.

I suspect it was because men who ask for this don't have a very good understanding of the female body. A basic knowledge of biology should explain why it isn't pleasurable for women. It's really tiresome when men have sexually educated themselves on the internet and don't know anything about plateau etc...

I asked one women why she had ended things with the guy who had asked her for OE. I mean if she was willing to try it, she must really love him right? She said she felt he did not really care about her.

Really when a man asks for OE it's about subjugation. Most women know this in their hearts and find it hard to forgive that attitude. They try it in a spirit of guilt. Then they do not forget, or forgive.

Does anyone have the link to Aunt Pep's sex advice?

Here it is:

Aunt Pep's Sex Advice from Other Topics

I agree totally. I could never do that particular act as I've always believed it comes from the porn arena, is not safe, and well, I could never think of my H in the same way, or myself, if I allowed it.

I feel awful having all these negative thoughts about him. In the beginning, he took me on fabulous trips because he wanted me to see things I'd never been able to see with my ill first husband; it was all so romantic and sweet: surprise lunches on a mountaintop to watch whales, stuff like that. He even saved me from serious injury at the airport once.

Everything changed though when the sex issue became a major player in our M.

Having negative thoughts about him? How, just because you see the OE is a bit grimy and not your cup of tea? I'd categorise that as having negative thoughts about OE, not your H!

One of the great things about Marriagebuilders is that you don't waste your time having DJ's (Disrespectful Judgements aka negative thoughts) about your spouse.

You simply practice RH - Radical Honesty. "I don't like that. It is grim. I would rather eat my own eye." (Note there is no discussion on why your H is 'wrong' to think differently. His opinion is his own, he is free to have it and you don't attach a value to it)

Then you use that RH to PoJA - "Do we have two enthustiastic votes? No? Well on to the scrap pile it goes."

That's the end of the matter. If your spouse engages in any DJ's about you, such as "You're prudish" or "you're f***ed up" you let them know in no uncertain terms you won't be putting up with any of that and walk away, while looking up how to prepare for a separation if it continues.

One of the best things you could do is make sure you implement PoJA firmly when HE doesn't want something. To set an example.

Him - "Honey if you still want that dog, we can work something out. i don't want one but if you scratch my back..."
You - "Good grief no. I only want a dog if we both want one. A dog we both love and welcome. If you don't want it I certainly wouldn't enforce it on you."
Him - "Well really it could be something of a bargaining chip for me... I get waht I want when you get what you want..."
You "Absolutely not. No bargaining please, lets just be honest and not put each other through things we dislike".

See?

Replace 'dog' with 'sexual experience' and imagine it coming from your husband's lips.

That's PoJA. Pure loving care, protection from nagging, cajoling, DJ's and abuse.

I love PoJA.

Thanks indiegirl. Makes sense when put that way. However H has been essentially doing his own thing for years -- I suspect even through his previous marriages.

He will be highly resistant to any kind of change. In fact, right now, I doubt he'll be open to any of this. But first I'll e-mail the Harleys and look into a key logger. I already know I'll find porn - just don't know what kind and how much.

I guarantee you he has! You don't learn to tie your shoelaces and then one day stop doing it.

Most of uis arrived here not knowing how to tie our marital shoelaces. Your H is no different.

I just read Melody's thread on the importance of UA where it talks about meeting the need for SF.

Now I am confused again. I didn't meet H's need for SF, so gradually affection, conversation and RC tailed off (from him to me).

What if his only intimate need is SF? This is what he told me. That means I could never win him any other way....

My first marriage was the exact opposite. My deceased H had no interest in sex , so I could never win him over that way!!!

No wonder I'm a mess.

The way I understand SF, you were meeting his need as well as any wife could. He didn't receive it as SF because he's got a contrast between what the porn females will do versus what you will do as far as sexual acts go. SF need isn't a need for oral or other or kink, it is the coming together for both spouses to share not just physical pleasure, but emotional pleasure. He's coercing you to do things for his physical pleasure at the expense of your emotional pain.

I can guarantee you that the more you do the acts he says will make him fall in love with you, the more disrespectful and uncaring to you he will become. You can't get him to fall in love with you by just doing whatever he wants you to do.

We are each responsible for getting our own needs met. If a woman needs affection then it is in her interest to create a relaxed environment where she can get it. If his need is sex, then he must create an environment of love and care for her so she can enter into SF enthusiastically and passionately rather than just feeling like 'I gotta'.

All needs have to be met enthusiastically under PoJA. If something is blocking our enthusiasm, we helpfully tell our spouse what it they can do what is required to have their need met. If you have SF in this environment you'll just feel used and will develop an aversion to sex. Not good for him!

I think it's possible he's making the common 'why aren't you being more like me' mistake. His sex drive works without affection, why doesn't yours? He showed you affection before you married, proved his love by marrying you - do you want him to show it every single day! Sheesh!

His sex drive is fuelled by testosterone. He doesn't need to feel valued or admired or sexy to feel desire. He doesn't need to feel bonded. His sex drive comes up with the sun.

If you really loved him, you'd behave like a testosterone driven male. You'd initiate sex without the need for any emotional closeness and would consider it the be all and all of the bonding process. Saves time y'see.

There's value to his preoccupation with sex. Sex IS pretty great. There's also value to what you would like to add. That's the stuff that makes the SF meaningful. Together you have the recipe, you just need to add it together.

If you followed MB you'd have a very passionate sex life and this is what you should sell it to him on. Do snoop for porn use, though. If the contrast effect is in place you'll never live up to it.

You're not a mess. You're normal. He is the one who is a mess.

Speaking as a well past middle age adult male, I can tell you from experience that the male sex drive tapers down with age. There is a great temptation to fight this trend by becoming hyper-sex oriented, using porn or whatever, in an attempt recapture something that is perceived to be lost. It is a very stupid thing to do. In my opinion, age frees a man to experience the real joy that love and bonding to your spouse can bring. It's something that women always knew, but men are too hormone-driven to appreciate until they grow up.

I think with your husband, it is going to come to a choice. He either can have the reality with you, or the fantasy of porn and his exaggerated self delusions of his extraordinary sexual prowess. There is no room for middle ground here.

Everyone thanks again.

Mr Eureka:

I wish my H felt as you do and could just appreciate the fact that we found one another again after decades apart -- and are still healthy enough to enjoy one another, provide companionship into old age etc... As many times as I've spoken to him about this, he doesn't seem to get it. When I tell him that at our ages anything could happen, he blows me off as being a glass half empty person -- and yet, last year I had to rush him to the hospital with Afib which he'd been having for over a week without ever telling me. He could have had a stroke and died.

He seems obsessed with getting his SF needs met in the way HE WANTS, and doesn't seem to understand that he's hurting me and making me feel that he doesn't cherish me.

And he has really broken down my love for him in a way I never thought would happen.

He thinks we have no chemistry or passion because I'm not doing SF as often or in the ways he wants. It's as if he doesn't see into my heart at all, or doesn't want to.

How is that keylogger search coming along, Bluebird?

You are getting some great advice here. I just wanted to say that it looks as if you are dealing with someone that has been going down the wrong track for a very long time. Emotional disconnection/separating FS from passion is a coping mechanism that he has learned in his (bad) marriage.

When you were dating, he probably saw you as someone that could help him find joy; you took him back to the way things were before he emotionally disconnected from the world. Unfortunately, habits are very hard to change and marriage, even to you, probably brought too many triggers.

Can you find a way to sell him on the benefits of a romantic marriage? What were the things he liked to do with you before he shut down? As Mr Eureka points out, the male sex drive tapers off with age. This may terrify him. Allowing you to meet other emotional needs will be a way to compensate for that. You need to present everything in a positive light; the benefits to him. Take care that there is no implied criticism.

You have received some excellent advice in the thread. Much of it has been about trying to understand your husband and what your responses should be. However, you have just touched on the real issue in what you said here. He is not listening to you and is demonstrating a remarkable lack of care. The SF issues are really just a backdrop to this main issue - the supremely selfish and uncaring mindset he is demonstrating. Even if you could wave a magic wand and become the porn queen of his dreams, this basic issue would remain.

He is not listening to you and is demonstrating a remarkable lack of care. The SF issues are really just a backdrop to this main issue - the supremely selfish and uncaring mindset he is demonstrating. Even if you could wave a magic wand and become the porn queen of his dreams, this basic issue would remain.

This is what I feel as well. That even if I did everything he wants he would find another reason to disconnect.

This is the way he's lived all his life -- like the only child he was who taught himself to need no one. It's sad really and my heart breaks for him.

I'm sourcing out keyloggers right now and trying to find the simplest one.

Wow. So sorry for what your going through.

Your hubby needs a serious wake up call. Porn is destructive! Period. End of story. I used to have a habit of porn and turned it around. I thought like your husband did. "Ahh its no big deal, I'm not hurting anyone" but the reality is your hurting yourself! Your train your responses to it.. And when the response is not the same as porn.. Its frusterating so you go back to porn. Vicious cycle.

For the keylogger suggestion I used desktopshark. It was cheaper than spectropro but possibly easier to find (depends on how savy your hubby is with computers). You can also buy cell software too from them and check all your logs from any pc with a login. You can even buy a piece of hardware to plug into the machine. The software is sometimes caught by spyware tools so you will have to allow it in the settings exceptions. It also shows up in the running processes. (When you press ctrl/alt/del ) as explore.exe (looks like explorer.exe which is your windows taskbar etc) and it makes a hidden folder on the C: called DS that you can find if you set your folders to show hidden files at the C: level.

You deserve to be loved... Not used like a blowup doll. Get the goods with some snooping tools and come back here with the results for us to aid you in the next steps.. Do not confront. Just gather info.

MNG

Thank you for the advice on keyloggers. I'll come back and post on results.

Having said that, I don't think he'll be open to anything I have to say -- ie asking him to stop. He'll come back at me as he has before saying he can't trust me to change and meet his SF needs.

Well from my perspective.. He did love you at one time or you wouldn't have gotten married. His view is skewed from his porn use. If he is requesting OE (as some put it) maybe he is hiding the fact he might be gay and using you as a cover? ... I pray its not true, but with such insistance on OE and you appaarently not meeting this "act" of his... Its a red flag to me that speaks volumes about his care for you and your concerns. (I don't mean to offend if you are offended by this thought. My appologies if the thought offends you)

There's all sorts of stuff I wanted to do when porn was overstimulating me (ultimately that's what it does is overstimulate your senses. Its like someone who tries a harsh drug for the first time and likes it, you build a tolerance to its effects and need more and more to achieve the same response) But the reality is once you stop bombarding your brain with the overstimulation and over sexing of what your not getting at home you begin to appreciate the closeness and the journey that making love brings. Rather than being fixated on the outcome and to rush to the finish line. I pray your hubbys heart softens to your emotional needs and finds a balanced outcome that you both find rewarding in the department of SF.

MNG

P.s. You have found the best place possible to guide you in this healing process. One way or the other.

It's ok, no offense taken. To be fair to H, he never pressed me on the OE stuff after I said no. He made a few suggestions, but dropped it because he knew it wasn't going to happen. Apparently he watched porn and indulged in these activities with his former wife (before she lost interest in sex).So I guess I'm also being compared to his previous marriage (s).

Hi bluebird -

Here's my take, along with all the great advice you've been given.

I suggest you consider a less direct approach than confronting your husband about porn. You know he uses it. He has admitted it - he's not keeping it a secret (unless I missed something in your thread.) I don't think installing spyware to prove your H is doing something you already know he is doing is going to help your marriage. More likely it is simply going to push him further away.

How about reading, understanding and implementing Harley's approach to building strong, satisfying marriages - from the ground up? I hear that your husband is making you feel unloved and judged and otherwise 'not good enough.' I get it that you are tired of feeling this way (who can blame you?) but I also hear you don't want to lose this relationship.

I think there are other ways of getting what you... and your husband� want from your marriage.

First, really dig in to Harley. Read His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters. Take notes � focus on understanding *yourself* and what *you* need � but also on what *you* are failing to do in your marriage. You may be surprised to realize you are engaging in lovebusters and neglecting emotional needs (besides SF) and by doing so you are weakening your marriage � without even being aware of it� which is *awesome* because with that knowledge you have new ways of changing and making things better.

Then, when you have the big picture in mind, what about having another frank conversation with your H about your *mutual* dissatisfaction in your marriage and what you can both do to remedy it? You both want the same thing � to feel loved and valued. Try working on the problem *together*.

The conversation might go like this

�H, you�ve been distant lately and I get the feeling you are unsatisfied with certain aspects of our marriage. I don�t want you to feel unsatisfied. I�m also feeling pretty left out and hurt. I don�t like the direction I think our marriage is going. Let�s turn things around.�

Rather than a helpless victim you should take the position of an equal partner in your marriage � someone of great value, someone who is capable of real change. You can do things. You can make a difference. If you assume the posture of a person who can�t live up to someone else�s expectations � that is how they will see you.

After you open the door your H may say �Well I�ve told you I want more and better sex� to which you�d respond �I truly want you to feel amazingly satisfied with our sex life. Personally, *I* want the satisfaction of knowing I fulfill you. I truly believe we can get there, if we work together on it. I don�t know what the specifics will be � they may end up being different than either one of us are imagining � but I totally believe we can get there.�

This is where you start negotiating. Let him specify exactly what sexual satisfaction would look like for him. Take notes. Become an expert. Really know, deeply know what he wants � not just the behaviors he wants but the why. Try not to feel threatened by anything he says. Don�t judge. Just gather information and stay open minded. What he is describing may seem out of reach � but remember it also doesn�t necessarily have to be the end point. He will likely be satisfied with something different than he is imagining, an end point that is within your reach. On the other hand, your �reach� may be further than you now believe. Under better conditions you may feel like doing more than you do currently. Either way, for now� just gather info.

Then it is your turn. Let him know what you think it will take for you to feel loved and cared for in your marriage. As a motivator, let him in on the secret that he is most likely to get what he wants in marriage from a wife who feels amazingly secure, loved and valued. If he is willing to extend himself in meeting your ENs you are more likely to have the great sex life he is hoping for. It�s not coercion � it is just a fact. Then tell him in very specific terms what it would take for you to feel that way.

This is when you address the porn � tell him you think that porn may be contributing to your seeming sexual incompatibility. Porn may be artificially pushing his sexual appetite out of your reach and, ironically, leaving him feeling *less* satisfied with sex rather than more. Suggest porn may be contributing to both of your unhappiness.

Approach him as an equal, an adult. Don�t scold or judge. Ask him to do an experiment � 3 months, no porn or masturbation while you both put all your efforts in to your marriage, including (but not limited to) amazing sex. After three months you can re-evaluate things. This will be a sacrifice for him. He may be afraid to go without his needs being met. Reassure him that you will not leave him out in the cold. You�re working on this together.

What do you think of this approach? Maybe it won�t work. Maybe, as some have suggested, your H is �not marriage material.� If not, then you probably are better off alone than with an insensitive, selfish jerk. But based on what I�ve read there may be reason to hope your H isn�t some pathologic A-hole. He might just be a guy who needs some education, guidance and motivation without judgment and coercion.

A couple caveats I wanted to clarify -

You should strive to understand and meet your husband's ENs - but you should not tolerate abuse nor engage in sex acts you find unpleasant.

Installing spyware to prove your H is using porn may not be super helpful. But, if your H is involved in an affair (online or otherwise) you do need to know because your approach to marriage building will need to be much different in the case of an affair.

A critical element of marital recovery is confronting problems head on in a respectful manner. A spouse cannot change his/her behavior if they do not know the exact problem. Beating around the bush or sweeping problems under the rug is not a MB practice, it is the practice of conflict avoiders.
The issue of porn should be addressed head on and kept on the front burner until it is resolved. That is Dr Harley's approach to marital problems.

And almost every person on this thread has suggested to this poster that she install a keylogger on his computer. That is very standard advice when a spouse is looking at porn and/or cheating. I am sure you know that Dr Harley is an advocate of snooping? Snooping does not "push" a spouse away. It helps a BS understand the depth of the problem and hold her spouse accountable. A keylogger is kept secret so it couldnt' possibly have the effect of pushing a spouse away.


I would add that porn is not an emotional need. SF is an emotional need. It should be made clear by her that porn needs to be eliminated entirely from their marriage because it makes her unhappy. He should not commit to make her happy on a 3 month "trial" basis, but forever. If he won't do that, then she needs to consider separation.

Installing a keylogger is very helpful. Can you explain the reasons why?

I want to make clear that H wasn't asking for specific sex acts, just more of it and more variety, more "passion" (even though I felt passion).

What has dampened my enthusiasm is knowing he views porn, and that he may be getting his ideas from that and transferring those ideas to me. I never had to deal with his in my first marriage as H#1 was not interested in sex after I turned 30, and I never did find out why, although it was suggested to me by my therapist at the time that he could have been closeted gay. Hence my trauma at once again finding myself at sea due to sexual issues.

That is usually the case. And when the wife does not perform like an 18 year old porn star, he is disappointed because he is in the habit of making comparisons.

He is going to have to take porn off the table, or his sexual needs cannot be met.

There absolutely must be a confrontation. You are right that it should not including scolding or judging.

So it shouldn't be along the lines of "How could you view that filthy stuff?" or anything like that. It should be "We can't have a relationship and I can't meet your sexual needs if you reserve the right to view porn." Ending the porn usage and agreeing to transparency and accountability has to be a condition for continuing the marriage.

There doesn't need to be any judgment or disrespect involved. Simply explain this is the way you are and that you are not willing to tolerate images of other women being present in your marriage. You might even let him know that his sexual needs can be met BETTER when he ends the contrast effect. (That is one major reason why I do not view porn. I'd hate to make it impossible to meet my most important emotional need.)

Dr Harley says this on the radio show a lot. He basically says "keep complaining" if the problem is not getting solved.

BSW, do you listen to MB radio show?

Yes I listen.

Great!

I actually posed that question to BWS because his advice is NOT something Dr Harley would advise.

So once I have info from the keylogger that H has been looking at porn, I obviously can't tell him about the keylogger -- that would incense him and I'm sure he'd leave.

Do I just ask him if he's been looking at it alot lately? What if he says no and meanwhile I know he has been? I see a terrible confrontation brewing.

He always argues rings around me anyway and no doubt I'll come out of any confrontation at the losing end.

No, don't ASK him, tell him. Let him know that you have been watching his internet activity and you know he is looking at porn. Tell him how upsetting this is to you and tell him you don't think your marriage will work unless he stops it.

If he objects to your spying on him, I would remind him that you are his wife and have a right and a need to know everything he does. Does he have secrets from you? If so, then that is objectionable since everything he does affects you.

Explain to him that you find pornography to be a terrible offense and ask him to stop. Tell him what you have learned about the contrast effect.

Here is a Harley quote about hiding things in marriage - just substitute porn for affair:

here

When he asks "how" tell him you won't divulge that information.

He is not used to being questioned - that really upsets him . I have a feeling he was the "boss" in his other marriages and is used to having the upper hand. This will not go well...

What is not going well is sweeping the problems under the rug. Part of the problem in this short marriage is that problems are swept under the rug. That is something that needs to change in addition to his porn use.

You cannot solve problems if they are not addressed openly. complaints are an opportunity to improve in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage.

Nope. That's classic behavior for someone who has a SSL - secret second life. Look at the quote ML just posted to you...

This:

Thanks everyone who responded to this thread and provided so much helpful advice. I'll e-mail the Harleys and get the keylooger installed and will update later.

**EDIT**

moderators note: please familiarize yourself with MB material before posting. Any questions, send me an email. Thank you

There's very little can be done while an addiction and contrast effect are in play. She has to insist it goes, it is one of the few areas Dr H allows for demands to be made because it is such a serious breach.

Her H will not be enthusiastic and willing regardless of what she puts on the table. That's why she has to insist, not barter or negotiate. That will get her nowhere.

The other things will have to be handled later.

A marriage is a faithful, exclusive arena free from competition. There is nothing a wife can do to progress a great marriage until this basic tenet is met by her H.

My gut feeling is that my asking him to give up any of his independent behaviours is going to cause him to distance further. He has told me before that he's worked long and hard to be able to be free in his own home (had to leave other homes obviously and resents still having to pay child support at his age.)He was a workaholic before he retired.

The fact that I am his hs lost love who he claimed to adore doesn't seem to be reason enough for him to change. He still gets up at 6:00 am each morning and spends two hours on computer reading news, then an almost three hour walk every morning then plays Candy Crush or Ruzzle for an hour, then spends another hour on shower then juicing his lunch. All this time I am alone and wondering why he married me.

As someone here said, I believe he has disconnected emotionally from the world and cannot give more than he already has to me. My first H was like this and nothing ever did improve no matter how many therapists I saw or marriage books I read.

I'll update at some point but don't have much hope.

A friendly warning to posters that the goal of our forum is to help posters with Marriage Builders solutions. I see a lot of personal philosophies being promoted that are not helpful. Please familiarize yourself with Dr. Harley's views before you post. We appreciate your cooperation.

He was probably banking on not having to. Lots of people believe in unconditional love, also known as 'doing what I please thoughtlessly'

All you can do is set your standards and stick by them.

Bluebird - based on my understanding of your posts and Dr Harley's materials I was unsure whether installing spyware and verifying your husband's porn use would be helpful, since it is not a secret. Apparently Dr Harley has spoken on this quite clearly and I was wrong. I'm not very familiar with his radio show and I am out of the loop as a result. I was mistaken in suggesting you consider a different approach. (Thanks for the clarification Denali)

I look forward to hearing how this goes for you and your husband. =)

BWS

I just read thru the entire thread. Lots of great advice.

It's unclear to me - was a keylogger ever installed??

Bluebird,

Does your H have AO's?

You seem very nervous to confront him or discuss anything with him, so it's got me wondering...

My first husband had these, and was sometimes physically abusive (pushing, shoving, throwing things).

Current H does not do this and never has -- he'll just call me screwed up, or go silent, which is just as hurtful to me as an AO. His main thing is to avoid confrontation, so he'll express anger by withdrawing. When he gave me the silent treatment for four days a couple of weeks ago, I sent him an email asking when he was coming back. He replied he would come back "when he could feel comfortable in his own home." Other than that, I never heard from him and was left alone to worry and think.

I may have missed it somewhere in my reading, but can anyone tell me if Dr Harley considers a husband's porn viewing tantamount to being unfaithful?

What is an Affair?

It is.

Out of curiosity. Did you manage to setup the keylogger? If so.. Which one did you go with?

Unanswered....

Eblaster on order

Did you know you can download it right away? Then all you have to do is copy it to a stik and install on his computer.

Oh well, didn't realize that. All I know is he is more distant than ever and I am extremely low. I think he'll leave if he finds out about the keylogger or will never feel the same way about me again. I am too old to start over if this doesn't work and I'm afraid to be alone.

This breaks my heart. Have you told your husband how you feel about your situation?

He knows. We discussed this when we first met again. He knows all about my heartbreak of the past. My bad first marriage, caregiving a difficult spouse etc.

You don't have a marriage TO SAVE if the only way you maintain the relationship is if you allow him to keep secrets from you. There can be no secrets in marriage. Did you write Dr Harley? I would ask Dr Harley to help you persuade him to give up the pornography and create an integrated marriage.

Yes I sent him an e-mail yesterday.

As someone who has been in a lonely marriage, it is far more lonely to sit there uncomforted, uncared for but not free to do your own things either.

If he isn't husband material you would have a far more fulfilling life on your own than tied to a visibly offensive lack of care. Think what you would be free to do without having to bear all this weight and responsilibity for the entire marraige.

Women do great on their own! Besides why are you too old to have another go? That makes no sense to me. There's no cut off age for romantic love as far as I'm aware.

Thank you Indie for that compassionate response. My mom has often told me this but I've mostly been with a partner since age 19 and went straight from home to marriage. I wasn't good at dating after husband passed away and kind of dread the thought of it now. H on the other hand will simply go back to being the ladies man if we split and will no doubt waste no time getting out there due to his extremely strong sex drive.

Oh well, I'll just have to see what happens and do my best to help him see our marriage as worth saving.

There are a lot of things you can try before you get to that point, but never fear, we will coach you. I will be your personal general for your dating campaign if you like.

Besides which, nice men don't want someone who is 'good at dating'. They want someone who is good at being a wife. You're a catch missus!



If that happens we arent going to waste any of our time caring about this.

Thanks!!!

Awesome posts, indiegirl!

I also think you have received good advice from Indie. From a man's point of view, I see two problems with your husband.

First, your husband is addicted to sex with multiple partners. He likes the excitement of new conquests. That is why he has his list and sadly, that is why you are on it. Addictions--be they drugs, alcohol, or sex--are deadly to marriage. Unless the addictions are handled, the marriage cannot be fixed. Can your husbands addiction be fixed? Yes. Is he willing to take the first step, which is acknowledging there is a problem? I don't know. But that is something you may look into trying. Dr. Harely will be able to give you good advice in this area when you contact him.

Secondly, as I shared with you earlier, your husband is a desparado. He likes to go it alone, set his own agenda. This will be an insurmountable wedge if he isn't willing to change. If he is unwilling to practice POJA (the policy of joint agreement) then you will always be unhappy.

I believe your marriage is worth fighting for, and your call to Dr. Harley could be instrumental. But if he is unwilling to change for you, then you must accept that.

You strike me as a very thoughtful and gentle person, and I am sorry to see that you have had husbands who did not put into the marriage what you are willing to give. But not all men are that way, and there are plenty of them who want to make their spouses happy and who seek mutual fulfillment and happiness. I hope your two experiences don't make you completely jaded.

thanks Just. It's too bad I didn't want to acknowledge the red flags, but I do appreciate your support and sympathy.

Don't feel bad. You came out of an abusive marriage with your self esteem shattered and this man felt like a miracle. You did not think about the red flags because you thought you knew him already. You are not the first and definitely not the last either to make that mistake.

Rather than beating yourself up, focus on making yourself happy with who you are. Once you really know that you will be just fine alone if he does not buy into the changes, you will be in a much stronger position. He will sense that and it may be just what he needs as a wake up call.

The Harleys addressed my e-mail today on their show. They said that unless H was willing to drop the porn and POJA on other things we were probably headed for divorce. Dr. Harley says the ball is in H's court.

I heard their review and comments, too. I'm so glad you emailed them for their insight.

What did you think?

I think they were right on in their comments about the porn and POJA. They didn't talk about his other IBs, but concentrated on the porn, probably because porn in itself is the one of the worst IBs.

The problem I'm having, and I did this in my first marriage, is that in times like this I flip back to all the good times - when we first reconnected, and when my H cried talking about the past when we broke up as kids and had tears in his eyes when we had our first date or listened to "our song" from back then. It's almost like I've been living with two different H's. He took a lot of pains to do romantic things for me at first - planning getaways, trips etc. But once he felt I was not appreciative of him because I was not giving him the sex he wanted from me, all of that went away.

It's still hard for me not to blame myself.

He told me that it took him ten years to get over our original breakup because he had wanted to marry me back then so very badly. I remember the time and still have the heartfelt/heartbreaking letter he wrote me. Sometimes I wonder if the issue of the original breakup still plagues our relationship today, but that is another discussion and best left to a therapist I suppose.

The problem with your current marriage is not the old break up, I can assure you. It's your H's independent behavior, and specifically, his use of porn and his disparaging comments to you regarding sex.

He has very little interest in being a caring husband, the way things are now. He would need to end his use of porn and then be willing to always use the POJA and PORH for the rest of your lives together. There is so much more to a marriage than just existing together.

That makes no sense at all!

Apparently marrying you was his lifelong dream. You made it come true. Is he at home revelling in the marriage and thanking you? No - but he's got a ton of excuses why not.

Good heavens, you wouldn't seriously raise an old break up with a therapist would you? Tell him to man up and get over it and cast his eye around the present day.

Did you know Joyce broke Dr H's heart when they were young? He talks about it in all his books and sometimes they discuss it on the radio.

He says it was a hard time for him but he sees the benefit in her doing it. It meant she could compare him in dates with others. He was also motivated to up his game and move up from being a freeloader to being a renter. She inspired his entire programme! He often tells singles to break up because of this. He says if they love each other they'll get back together.

I know he sent you a sappy letter, but did he ever actually DO anything to win back?

It sounds like he wanted to be loved with very little effort on his part just for his own self. Words, even written ones, are very cheap



That's the hallmark of a freeloader. All their efforts are concentrated in the beginning because that's the easiest method. Then they hope to live off the interest for life.

It's hard not to look back to all the extravagant promises and how wonderful they made you feel. You know, the ones that never materialised?

But I'd much rather have someone who walked the walk than just talk the talk.

He said "you are headed towards a sexual aversion."

"pornography is very sadistic."

"it is not a loving, caring experience. It is not anything anyone would want as part of their married life."

"I think they are headed for divorce." "He has to get the pornography out of there."

If he does truly care about you, he will eliminate the porn and start making your sex life enjoyable for you. He won't want to cause you to suffer.

You can't change the past so I don't see the point in bringing up a long dead breakup. It has nothing to do with present problems. Bringing the unpleasantness of the past into the present is a distraction from present problems.

Had a long talk with H last night. The end result of it all is that he still feels I don't care and haven't tried to make him happy. He says I ignored his repeated requests for me to wear dresses at home (not every day but occasionally), and that I always gave the impression to him that I felt certain acts were dirty or perverse. He says that even though I love him and he loves me what I have given him is not enough.

I didn't even mention porn to him as have not yet got the keylogger installed.

I have to admit that I did ignore the dress thing. I wore them a few times but always felt uncomfortable as I'm no longer a size 8. H did love me in a dress but I couldn't get into being in one. SO that part at least, is my fault as I suppose it wasn't too much for him to ask.

He is still pretty shut down. When I mention to him about his other IBs, he wouldn't give in because he says apart from the walking for two hours in the am, he was always in the house.

So I really feel helpless to make my point to him.

And he did again mention that he was crazy in love with me in hs, but that I wouldn't sleep with him and instead lost my virginity to someone else and got married. It's still a big issue.

So, your husband is making a big issue over you not sleeping with him around 40-50 years ago, when you were a teenager?

I think it is still worth speaking with his ex-wives and get on that keylogger ASAP. I can't help but wonder if you have married a misogynist here.

Which he was aware of when he married you. His decision on that day would be to either let it go or use it to plague you. I guess he went for the second option.

Why did he do nothing at the time of the break up to win you and become the better option? Why didn't he marry a woman who did give up her virginity to him if that's his requirement? It's a fine requirement to have but he did not seem too dedicated to having it!

If your virginity was so vastly important to him, then why did he marry you? It's a useful stick to him, that's why.

It's positively ludicrous to use a thing you can't change to control you.



If you don't like dresses you don't have to. Indeed shouldn't. You gave it a shot showing you were willing to try. This means you made it clear you were open to suggestions. The negotiation was still open and he could have tried other PA requests for things that might have worked better. You don't have to comply with anything unless it works for you too.

This stuff is all a really obvious distraction from the real issue. He needs to join you in being married! You need to be a broken record and repeat that you intend to meet all his needs - but that he needs to give up his IB. Meet what needs you can in the meantime and snoop.

He says he doesn't trust me anymore because I promised change in the past and didn't deliver and this is third time he's had to confront me on this issue. I think he is done.

I don't. People who are done, leave. They don't talk so much. They don't try and get their way with so much justification and excuses.

If he's done NOW due to something that happened years and years ago, do you think that is entirely honest?

Dpn't you think it's more likely he is done (or claiming to be done) because you have started to insist on a real marriage?

You're headed for divorce anyway because he isn't a good husband and contrast effect makes him impossible to please. The fact he threatens he "is done" when he has tanked the marriage any way is no threat at all.

You seem to be overwhelmed by his accusations that are merely distractions away from the elephant in your NOW marriage---his porn. Take heed, he is gas lighting you. I can only assume all the so-called caring and romantic fluff in the beginning of your short marriage and then the crazy-making punishing shifts are calculated. This is stealth abuse. You can only change yourself. You can't passively 'survive' this marriage as you did in the past. Stop allowing yourself to be compared to a fantasy. If your husband can't stop porn and POJA there is no way to have a marriage.

Don't you see? Your husband does not even see 'you'---as you are today. He wants you to be that teenaged virgin girl. Apparently a fantasy he's harbored for years. I'm sure you began this marriage 'seeing' him for where he is at today minus the porn and I'm sure you were all in to be compatible w/one another as you are now.

Sure you could put on a dress and walk about feeling uncomfortable. You could engage in on-demand-sex-acts of his choosing at your disfavor so HE can have his fantasy life.

Do you know how Dr Harley describes marriage: a relationship of extraordinary care.

Your husband charmed you into this marriage. Now you know he lives in a warped fantasy world that degrades women. Compliance towards his fancies is just going to up the ante. Likely you did not que up in the beginning of this renewed relationship but now he is escalating.

You need to know how far he is into porn. This might at least give you a reality check so you can proceed from a point of correct reference and not buy into his guilt trips and manipulations. How low do you want to go? What is your bottom?

I would have an honest discussion with him about the porn and let him know that unless some serious changes are made, that yes, this is done. You need to get everything out on the table.

Your husband is throwing things at you to keep you off balance.

Don't put this off anymore. Tell him the porn has to go. The practice of win/lose, ie: sacrifice is destroying your marriage and has to stop.

Explain to him that you are not going to wear dresses because it makes you unhappy. If the marriage is to work, you need to find win/win solutions.

This is very insightful.

The fact he wasn't good enough for you at the time - and did not up his game to change it has never registered to him. The fact you had every right to marry whoever appealed most to you isn't even dwelled upon in a selfish agenda.

All that matters is that he never got his hands on the pretty little lollipop and you don't try hard enough to look like said lollipop did years ago. Consider the lollipop's feelings? Dont be so silly.

Does anyone have the link to the thread for gaslighting?

BB, your marriage can be saved, but that can never happen unless you start being forthright with your husband and STOP allowing him to gaslight and distract you with nonsense. You are an intelligent grown woman who has the ability to address a problem head on. You have received great advice from Dr Harley. Now you just need to use it.

This may be headed to divorce. But it is surely headed to divorce if you don't confront the problem head on. Sweeping it under the rug will achieve nothing.

Installing the keylogger on the weekend

I would not wait to have that discussion with him. You may not need to install the keylogger if he won't even agree to stop it in the first place.

I've decided to confront him about the porn on the weekend, with or without keylogger.

Thinking this through based on BB's experience and responses thus far I see this potential discussion to go something like this:

-BB requests husband stop the porn. She gets brave and tells him its a deal breaker for her.
-Husband gaslights her.
-BB gets confused and fearful again. "Gee, he does have a point. I'm not complying w/his selfish demands. I deserve his disrespect. I don't want to be lonely. Who else is going to want me at my age." (sorry BB)

Perhaps the key logger, which she says she has already purchased can still be installed. Help clear up the confusion from the eminent gas-lighting.

When you confront him, keep the present tense very active. Do not be dragged into a discussion of the past.

My H was always very keen to discuss past problems/ the unresolvable during his A.

You need to be relentless about keeping things in the present and the focus on on your basic requirements for fidelity.

"That is the past. This is what I need today"

Agree. You don't need the keylogger to confront him about the problem. If he makes you too nervous, you might want to consider writing out the issues in an email. That way, you can get it all out on the table and further the discussion.

Agree. You need to be prepared for him to try to pettifog the issue. And he pulls something like "you don't wear dresses for me therefore you don't love me" tell him that you are not happy wearing dresses, do you want me to be unhappy?

Exactly ML. Someone that cares for someone doesn't make them do something they don't want to do. Fast way to aversions, anxiety, and lost love.

Thanks everyone. I'll update next week. Right now I'm just trying to calm down and out myself in the right frame of mind in case H resists or asks for separation.

BB, you should prepare to ask HIM for a separation if he won't give up the porn.

I confronted H about his porn use this am. I told him it had been a source of grief for me right from the beginning of our relationship, when he shut down all discussion telling me it wasn't my business, was harmless etc and he only did it when sex was lacking. I then told him that since he feels the sex is lacking now and for a long time he must be viewing porn more rather than less.

He admitted to using it more often over the past six months since he's been feeling I'd let him down and wasn't meeting his highest needs for SF, more varieties and had made him feel that his requests for certain acts were dirty. He repeatedly told me that I had ignored him and was only thinking of myself.

I told him that I felt porn was the other woman in our relationship an that it was an IB that made me feel that he was making comparisons, whether he realized it or not.

The discussion did not go well and as I suspected he repeatedly told me that I was puritanical and didn't know what I was missing. Rather than get into a heated argument with AOs I requested that he end the porn use in order for me to feel safe in the marriage. If he did that, we could POJA some of his SF needs but that I had to know that porn was no longer an influencing factor.

He went quiet, which is a bad sign and has spent the rest of the day in the basement.

I'm sorry to say that this tells me that his porn use is more important to him than you are.

I hope he' just taking time to think about what I said. His first reaction would be to feel hugely criticized, but am praying he softens and begins to consider my needs.

Bluebird,
I am very encouraged that you were able to hold your ground on this very important issue. You did very, very well and did not let your husband take control of the issue and manipulate it towards his self-centered objective. Great job! Let him stew on your request.

I recommend that you write him a love letter, one that professes your love for him and that captures the beautiful things that you did when first married and share with him how that bliss can easily return to your marriage. I would also introduce to him a plan that you have to help get them there: a promise to spend time together each week (20 hours is the goal, though I would not state 20 hours in the text as that is too technical for a love letter) doing things that will make you happy together, a relationship that is open and that offers BOTH of you gratification through mutual agreement and problem-solving, and one that is based on complete honesty and transparency. In that letter I would let him know in order for the marriage to work, he has to put away pornography and you have to reach enthusiastic agreement on what will work for both of you in regards to SF. Remind him that you and him had a great sex life before, and can have it again if you learn to meet each others needs. Hand write the letter and wear a pretty dress*** when doing so.

If he responds openly, then start introducing him to the program. I would even suggest you do counseling with Steve Harley. He is very effective and might help your husband to shift his views. And Steve will be able to counsel him on the areas of sex that have become such a big problem.

If your husband refuses to budge, then Dr. Harley's assessment of your marriage leading to divorce may be the outcome. As I said earlier, your husband has an addiction to sex with multiple partners, and he treats you like an object. That must end for any progress to be made. These are non-negotiable, and you are not making a selfish demand by making this a condition of recovery of marriage.

But do keep fighting. Even if you are sure he will refuse to do the things listed above, at least in your heart you know that you have done your very best to recover your marriage.

***P.S. I don't understand why some here object to your husband's fancy that you wear a dress unless the dress is all a part of his erotic sexual power play or sexual objectification. Still, if that is something that makes you appealing to him, than why wouldn't you do it for him once in awhile? I'm not suggesting that you go June Cleaver on him, vacuuming the house in a dress and pearls. But give a dog a bone once in a while. My wife loves to see me in a tie and formally attired. So I am happy to dress up for her.

Conversely, I used to have these really old and overly worn sandals that my wife hated seeing me in. I wore them anyway, and it was a love buster. She threw them away. Truthfully, I should have thrown them away myself and got a nicer pair since she did not like seeing me in them.

I would address this. Rather than seeking a sex life that makes you BOTH happy, he is seeking his OWN desires. In order to have a satisfying, happy sex life, you should be seeking ONLY things that make you BOTH happy. He is only considering himself and as such, is setting you up to have a sexual aversion. Then you won't want to EVER have sex with him and will grow to cringe when he touches you. Does he want that?

It would be a mistake to EVER agree to a sex act that is repulsive to you in any way. It should be something that is appealing to you. He seeks win/lose and the correct way is to seek win/win.

Yup. Dr. Harley's latest, He wins/She wins keeps coming to mind as read Blue's posts. There are really good worksheets that help couples break down the "negotiating" into manageable and doable pieces. However, Blue's husband must deal with his addiction problem. That is why I think meeting with Steve can be helpful. I don't think Blue can convince her husband that there is an addiction. And he bullies her into making it seem that the problem is her.

Agree with Just3 that you did a great job!!!

And I also agree with the comment above. One of the most EXCITING parts of our dates is to wear something the other person desires. [as long as we are happy doing so!!] I don't like dresses either, but I do love to wear low cut blouses on our dates and he loves that. My husband also wears shirts that I find attractive on our dates. Our goal is to be as attractive as possible for the other person. As long as we are not unhappy doing it!


This is a perfect idea. Dr Harley suggests writing a "Plan A" letter, so to speak, that outlines your desires.

She has planted the seed. It will be interesting to see if he steps up to the plate. I like your idea of sending him a Plan A letter and then following through with the instructions outlined in When to Call it Quits. It might take a separation to get through to him. When to Call It Quits - Part 1

I agree on wearing the dresses. That was a big lovebuster on my part. All I saw in the mirror was not my younger self - but an aging body. I felt self-conscious and couldn't even accept H's obvious pleasure at seeing me this way. I think this was a mistake and now H feels it is a huge part of my ignoring him. I am sorry about it, but hindsight is not going to fix things right now. Once a week probably would have been enough for him but I couldn't manage that as I was selfishly thinking about my own discomfort.

I'm going to give him a few days to reflect, as I'm now reflecting on my part in this.

No, it is not selfish. I don't think you understand. The goal is to find MUTUALLY ENTHUSIASTIC SOLUTIONS. You are not enthusiastic about wearing dresses so it should not be done. I feel awkward and unattractive in dresses so it makes no sense to dress in a way that would make you feel awkward and unattractive. You won't want to be with him if you feel awkward and unattractive.

That would be SACRIFICE and would harm your marriage. NO SACRIFICE!!

I'm in a panic this afternoon thinking about potentially having to separate. I don't think H would be faithful if apart due to his history and I can't get my head around this and the image it's creating in my mind.

The lovebuster was his SELFISH demand that you wear dresses when he knows you feel discomfort doing it.

It is good to dress up for your husband in a way that makes him happy - but it must make *YOU* happy too. Mutual, mutual, mutual. This win/lose strategy has to be driven from your thinking.

Melody thanks for that but it does seem like not a lot for H to ask. It's strange too as all I wanted in my first marriage is for my H to notice me and he could not have cared less - perhaps may have been closted gay as has been suggested to me by relatives, friends and an IC.

I guess it's been like going from one extreme relationship to another without a true middle ground and hard for me to adjust.

Please calm down. You have no control over his actions. If he would rather separate and have an affair than make you happy in your marriage, then you are better off divorced. Do you see that?

All you are doing is asking him to stop doing something that makes you miserable and start considering your feelings. That is a reasonable expectation in marriage. So far he has failed miserably in that department.

It is too much to ask if it makes you uncomfortable because it is bad for your marriage. Does your husband WANT you to feel awkward and unattractive? If so, that only means he doesn't care about your feelings.

Have you started working on the letter justthe3ofus recommended?

You have not gone from one extreme to the other. They both demonstrated that they don't care about your feelings, but in different way.

I need some time to think about what I would say. I've tired similar letters in the past to him over this issue and he's always come back with a cold and aloof response. This was the time he wrote back to me that he loved me, but would rather "go it alone than settle."

Now in his view even more time has gone by without me demonstrating (in his view) substantive change. I fear a really bad written response from him.

Are you willing to stay in the marriage regardless of how he treats you? Is your goal to have a marriage at any cost where you are forced to sacrifice your happiness?

Here's your show Bluebird with your question.
Radio Clip of Bluebird's Show/question

I don't have kids, no family close by, not a lot of friends at this point in life. I'm not good at getting out there - so my fear is living and dying alone.
And I see that scenario as a real possibility as I age.

thanks for the show clip BH.

I am very worried about your ability to put aside your emotions and look at this logically and strategically. Your FEAR of aging alone is greatly hindering your ability to take necessary steps.

I think you are headed to divorce because your marriage is unbearable now. It will get worse as his selfish, uncaring demands increase. Getting old with a spouse who does not care about you is a ticket to hell. What will happen to you if you get sick? Develop dementia? Become bedridden with a stroke? I shudder to think.

If he doesn't change his entire approach to being a husband, you would be better off divorced because you would be free to pursue a relationship with someone who would show you loving care in your senior years. That would be preferable to living with a man who does not care for you.

You have a slim hope that separation would motivate him to change. That is sometimes the greatest motivator. But that will not happen unless you let him know what it will take to make you happy and keep you in this marriage.

Did you read the article I posted above called When to Call it Quits? That lady transformed her marriage via separation.

Ill reread the article Melody.

I read the article, but all I can think of is how H walked out on his two previous marriages and was able to move on to dating others rather quickly -- the 25 previous sex partners comes to mind.

You are right that he perhaps lacks the compassion necessary for the "in sickness and health" part of marriage. He hasn't been that nurturing in the past when I've been ill with the flu. I know a lot of men are bad at this, but given H's history it is a concern.

I'm waiting to see what he says to me after he's had time to think about our conversation.

Those other marriages likely ended the same way, with him making selfish demands that didn't take their feelings into consideration. You can show him that there is a better way by writing him a letter giving him this plan, ie: giving up porn and creating a marriage that takes both sides into account. You can give him that opportunity.

If he won't do that, then you are better off without him. If he doesn't change, you have no hope of a happy future. You would have great hopes of happiness without him.

I believe the porn has turned him into a very uncaring man who views women as nothing more valuable than a sex partner. His relationships are no more meaningful than 2 jackrabbits in heat going at each other. That is not a marriage. That is a porn movie.

Bluebird,
As ML is saying, walking out can create the change in a man that is needed. Some of us are dumb as a rock in the marriage area and need that wake up call. Many a man has been spurred to deep change because of a wife who walked away.

If your husband would rather move on and continue to live his independent lifestyle than you would be better off anyway. So far, as a husband, he has been a leach sucking out of you all of your life force. He has not been marriage material and needs serious reform.

I don't believe you will be doomed to a life alone if this doesn't work out. But as Mel pointed out, if you let things stand as they are, you will be putting yourself in potentially grave danger. As I said to you before, there are many good men out there who aren't like your first two husbands.

I thought it was so much better than my first marriage, because current H never yelled, threw things, or tried to harm me physically. He actually loved me in his way -- he had pictures of us in the bedroom (former H never did). I thought those things were signs of love.

I still can't fathom how everything slid downhill the way it did. Well I can, because you guys have explained it to me, but it's still not computing.

You know why he went to the basement after your discussion. It wasn't to give your requests serious thought! You knew he was going to 'withdraw' before you even spoke up because that's his pattern.


He knows you've been willing to settle. He is camped out at the very minimum he can do for you. He is dedicated to living DOWN to your standards. He knows all he has to do is go a bit cold, get a bit withdrawn, threaten separation and you'll leave his precious porn addiction alone. Maybe even pop on a dress. Who cares how it makes you feel? His porn ho's don't have feelings so why should you?

If you continue to allow this attitude you will have a miserable marriage and a miserable old age where every feeling, request, need will see him coldly withdraw and compare you to a porn actress.

Your marriage is headed for death and it will be a slow agonising death of a thousand cuts. Judging by his manipulation skills I would also guess his other marriages died a slow agonising death. The wives probably didn't cut him off while the marriage was somewhat healthy, shutting him out of a marriage he would miss. They probably nagged, whined and fell into a depression enabling him to feel like he had escaped hell, instead of being shut out of paradise.

Letting him run this show will be a disaster. Look what he did to his other marriages!

An absence of abuse isn't love! While the pictures are nice it's a bit 'easy' as gestures go. He's all for SAYING he loves you and for making easy gestures but he won't go so far as actually caring for you in a meaningful way.

Withdrawing from you to punish you whenever you need something is downright cruel. He is sending you the message that you're worthless. That you have to settle for his cruelty.

Well you don't. You are caring and loving, intelligent and sensual. You are good company for yourself and excellent company for a man who treats you lovingly. You could go into the street, throw a rock and hit a guy who is better for you than this man is currently. You don't have to stand for this and you won't.

Thanks Indie -- you're a kind person, as are all the folks who have lent advice and support. It really helps!

You know, if you are putting all your energies into your own fears and allowing your husband to escalate your fears (his accusations are his own projections)you DON'T have time for healthy thoughts and feelings about yourself and other possibilities for your life. Your husband projected a fantasy onto you that started out appearing perfect, but now its turned to what it really is, a very warped image of you and women. That's the overlay of porn on your marriage and you.

Try to stay centered. Tell yourself the truth. Be truthful to yourself. Radical honesty. Its not about aging and being alone when you die. Its about hiding from yourself. Perhaps if you have stopped going to church due to your husbands accusations over being 'puritanical' ---go back to your faith. Center yourself. Open yourself to a world of possibilities for yourself and your future with or without your husband. This notion can seem like a jumping over a cliff--its called faith in action--into an unknown. The truth is you don't know where this step will take you. But following your trust is the whole point. I'm not talking about IBing your husband.

If you can stay on top of who you are it will be that much easier to reach out to safe others --just as you are doing so here--and develop true intimate relationships.

If your husband wants a mutually fulfilling relationship going forward he will join you in this area of honesty with his self and you. He won't want to distort who you are to him. But if your husband wants you to see yourself with distortions and asks you to be dishonest with yourself. This will simply lead to more disconnect and distance.

It sounds like the times you attempted to be honest and state your concerns and needs, he explained why its your own fault he can't help you and off he went ---his great 'good reason' he has to use porn. You might just as well be locked in a dungeon by a tyrant. Not the best place to spend your precious 'woman of a certain age' years.

We are all here attempting to be your wings. We want both you and your husband to be happy and to have the most romantic and intimate marriage. I'm glad you are here and learning what it takes. Many of us have come here and learned the recipe. We have found we were minus several key ingredients or even came to realize the recipe being followed was on a disastrous or tragic path. You can learn here just how important ALL the ingredients that help a marriage work are. You can help your husband if he wants to make the marriage work. But so far he is plainly showing all of us he has been following a recipe for disaster.

Thank you grace. I really fear for him even more than I fear for myself. But as you wrote so beautifully above, it's time to stop focusing on my fears and walk in faith.

But more than that, its time to take action. I like nice flowery words, but they won't resolve the problem. The way to do that is to address the situation head on.

What is the latest?

I share ML's misgivings. Usually when someone here thanks us for all our help and talks about feelings, but not actions it means no action is going to be taken.

I really hope I am wrong. I feel BB is braver than she knows but she won't know until she DOES something.

I told him at lunch time that I was going to write up a plan of action where we would POJA his needs and mine, but that he had to commit to no more porn. He bristled at that but didn't say anything except that he would wait to read it. He says he still feels I have ignored his needs and he has a right to feel distanced because what I've given so far has not been enough.

Have you read the When to Call it Quits article? Don't be scared by the title! It's an action plan for the next few weeks.

One thing you could consider doing is getting SH on the phone, who will tell you what to say to get your H on the phone or signing up for the online course.

I think you still expect him to turn around and help you steer the ship but I don't see that happening. He's very entrenched in bad habits and expects you to capitulate.

You need to have an action plan (like in the article), or a confident third party who he won't be able to gaslight.

You still get really scared when he withdraws and he knows it.

Indie, he is very much a "desperado" as in the Eagles song. It hasn't helped that he has no faith to guide him -- I tried to interest him but it didn't take.

I don't believe any woman in his life has ever successfully been able to reign him in and IBs. Once, when cleaning out the cottage, I found a letter his xw has written - it was a plan for restoring their marriage and included more SF etc . I can't remember all the words, but recall feeling sad for her. She talked alot about the fact that he was a workaholic, was never home for family dinners, and when home secluded himself in the basement office. It was just this past summer that I found it and little did I know...

I want to give him a few more days to respond. If I push and he feels tension, he'll only leave for the cottage.

Let him know that the goal is to meet his "needs" in a way that makes you feel happy and comfortable. You will not be satisfying any selfish demands or making any sacrifices. So, if he wants his "needs" met you will have to work together to find a way to meet them that is mutually satisfying. This is not win/lose, but win/win.

Thats ok. If he leaves, that is an answer too. I would keep this on the front burner until it is resolved.

I agree it's no tragedy if he leaves. In fact I am amazed you would care after the reception you got. Amazed you resisted packing his bags. If he leaves tell him he MAY return - without the porn.



I agree. It's a song for sad lonely old men.



I don't have any religious faith. I still know how to be decent, kind, committed and nice. His faith is his business but his behaviour is yours.




That's not their job. It's his. It's their job to leave and do better.



I don't feel sad for her, I'm impressed. She gave him a shot but made it clear she had high standards. If you were to talk to her today she'd probably be ecstatic that he became somebody else's problem, is much happier and she would probably feel sad for you.

I know that's how I would react if someone came looking for me after finding the Plan B letter I wrote my H before giving him the heave ho.

BB, I predict you won't get very far until you get over your fear of his leaving. That fear keeps you paralyzed into inaction.

When I was a teacher, parents would say to me: I don't know what to do about my child. What should I do?

I would say: Set limits. Let them know that you mean what you say and you say what you mean. Be a parent. Be a leader. Be in charge.

You don't have to be in charge of your husband, but you do have to set reasonable limits and have the courage and wherewithal to stand by them. If you don't then you are enabling his selfish behavior. This will never get better.

Indie recommended you get a third party involved. I agree. That's why I recommended that you contact Steve Harley. It seems your husband is dead set in his ways, and that even Steve wouldn't be able to influence him. But if he really loves you, your leaving may be the impetus he needs to talk to Steve with an open mind.

Yes I'm afraid. - really really afraid. I try to visualize life without him or worse, him with someone else and it feels like a hard gut punch. And I know many here have been left, cheated on etc and survived and I guess I will too if it happens. But it seems so sad that it's come to this. He was my bff in highschool as well as my boyfriend. We went everywhere together - think of the Beatles song, "Two of uS." Then think of the "Long and Winding Road."

That's been our lives. He wasn't a desperado when I knew him then. But along the way something happened.

Both of my H's have been able to out argue me, make me feel inadequate and at fault. Or rather, I allowed it. I've been told I have ptsd from my first marriage and his illness.

I guess at this stage of my life I wanted to rest with someone and it's not happening. I'm so tired, but will start on the letter/plan tomorrow.

As they say, one day at a time. Even one moment at a time. You have already made positive steps. You stood up and stated your standards going forward. These standards were not clear before. But now they are becoming clearer. Yes you are wounded but don't simply lick your wounds and worry. You are learning how to protect yourself and create a real marriage.

Steve Harley would coach us using the analogy of piloting a plane. When you are in trouble and lose your perspective do not rely on your old perspective but rely on the instruments. He is talking about the use of MB principles. Your own perspective might not help you so much or tell you where you are--but follow the instrument here. That's what they tell pilots trying to figure out what is sky and what is earth. Clears up confusion and manages fear.

We are all helping you follow the instruments. Real actions come out of following the instruments. The principles. Your husband seems pretty entrenched in IB and porn--but stranger things have happened.

I personally have mentioned reminding myself of who I am in terms of my relationship to God when my husband would gaslight me
and project a diminishing view of me. Helped me better stand up for myself and take action. My husband was pretty entrenched in IB.

I know ML worries people will 'wait for God' to make things happen and allow themselves to be abused with no end in sight. Not my thing. I'm simply saying go look at this other mirror. That's you BB. Your husband is holding up one of those wavy carnival mirrors. That's a distortion.

Infidelity is the worst. A terrible, terrible blow. Yes, he might take off. Or he might turn around. You are both on a narrow path. You only have control of yourself.

Again, the action now is to write the letter. So there you go.

It is terrible you have to deal with this at this point in your life. You needed your 1st husband held to higher standards too. You would have known how to take care of yourself sooner. You'll likely never know if he was gay. But thankfully you have this chance to have this experience in thoughtfulness and care and building intimacy. No matter what happens this experience will be a positive game changer for your relationship with your husband now.

It's not the prospect of losing him you should find scary. The prospect of nothing changing should scare you far, far more.

There isn't any more long and winding road (unless he gets rid of the porn). There isn't any more sweet teenage love (unless he gets rid of the porn). That stuff has all been burned away by the porn. Now you are a name on a list. Is that sad? Yes but it isn't your decision, it is his. You made a good decision and he either joins you in it or he gets out.

You simply cannot allow this grimness in your home. Allowing him to 'desperado' himself (that's a euphemism) into utter misery where nothing makes him happy enough. He will always be seeking more, better, younger, spicier - porn users are never sated. Perving over girls young enough to be his granddaughter long into old age while you stand idly to one side, neglected - aiding and abetting.

Does that scare you?

Your reminiscing of the high school BFF is just as much fantasy as pornography. Both fantasies keep you and him crippled in current reality, living in misery. You are 50-60 correct? If he wishes to live in an alternate reality that is his unfortunate choice, but why do you continue - again - to deprive yourself of love and life because of a man who does not respect you? Don't you wish to look forward to your golden years? We only live one life.

[

Indie and Alias:

Reading your comments I realize you're both right. I accept far too little.

Writing the plan now. If he doesn't want to cooperate, separation is my choice. Don't want to, but necessary.

I'll update in a few days.

Proud to hear you are stepping outside his foggy world and seeing better.

Good job Bluebird! Time to stand up for yourself. Be outcome independant if he doesn't want to follow the plan to have a happy and fulfilling marriage where EVERYONE gets their needs met equally and happily. Looking forward to seeing your update. Keep up the good work!

MNG

If it helps, post a draft here b4 presentation to husband.

That really is the boiled down truth. You will give him every opportunity to deliver the marriage he promised but he MUST deliver to keep you.

Here is a draft:

Dear XXXX:

I realize our marriage, which began with such hope and promise, has not been healthy or happy for some time. You feel I haven't been trying to meet your greatest need for SF, and I have felt shutdown because the things that are most important to me: lots of time together, intimate conversation and affection, have been on the wane or just not there.

I have a plan to make our marriage better and stronger, but it means changes. Changes that will ensure both of us get our most important needs met.

First, to restore happiness to us, you must give up all porn viewing. It is not harmless as you believe, because it drains my love for you and makes me feel that you compare our love life to what you see online. I do not feel safe or secure, or that I have the full and complete love you promised as long as you continue to look at porn. There is simply not enough room in our marriage for porn. Period.

Second, I need you to cut back on your independent behaviours which have been taking important time away from us. Your exercise regime, and habit of keeping to yourself until mid-day mean we miss out on important opportunities to talk and have intimate conversation and affection. Our marriage needs this to thrive!

I know the love and care you promised me were not just empty words and feelings. I know the man you can be and that you too do not want to end up alone.

In return for making me feel more loved and cared for, I will be open to meeting your most important need for SF. Without the porn overshadowing our relationship, I will be open to more SF and to making sure I dress and look attractive to you.

Nothing good will happen in our marriage unless you give up the porn. And I am prepared to separate if you can't or won't do this.

I love you but we both deserve better.

bb

Like it.

I gave him the plan tis morning -- he said he wanted to take some time to read it and think about it.

Scared he is not going to be receptive. I'm not prepared to go any further with him unless he antes up to the plan.

It is good that he hasn't discarded it out of hand.

Your husband *knows* the porn is wrong. He has no real defense for it, and he knows that, too. You have called him on it, in a thoughtful and respectful way. Stick to your guns, and don't compromise in a way that invalidates your argument. The porn has to go, or you really have no marriage to hang on to.

Bravo to you, bluebird!! Just stick to your guns. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Agreed. I would try to refrain from "romanticizing" the relationship by reflecting on times you spent together as teens. That time in your life doesn't really count - you two didn't have the same issues that a married couple would have to face. You have to focus on the behaviors that occured during M. That's reality - and who your H really is.

x2

Has he said anything yet?

We had a talk this morning. He says he still doesn't trust me to provide the kind and variety of sex he needs to be happy. I asked him if would commit to stopping porn use - that he had to to do this or our marriage would be poisoned and we were heading for separation.

He stood there for a few minutes and said that he would stop but needed me to meet his needs at least 2x a week and wear a dress one night a week. He said he would not ask me to do anything I wasn't comfortable with. The other two nights he said he would be fine with what he calls "blander" SF.

He said he does not want to split up because he spent too many years thinking about me and hoping he would somehow find me again. He said he realizes age is against him and a split would likely find him struggling to find a compatible, healthy mate.

On the other IBs he was less enthusiastic - said his exercise was important to him and he could not stop without feeling terrible, so as a compromise he will still do the two hour walk but only juice three times a week and the rest of the week we would either go out for lunch or have lunch together in the house.

To me this seems positive. Any thoughts?

You can be trusted to do things you ENJOY, though. So as long as your enjoyment is assured, there shouldn't be a problem. If he asks you to do something you don't enjoy then he can "trust" it won't be done.


A better solution is to find things to do that you BOTH enjoy. Do you ENJOY wearing a dress? I know I sure don't. What else did he ask you to do?

Again, the key here is WHAT DO YOU ENJOY? Did you tell him what YOU enjoy so you can discuss ways to reach MUTUAL ENJOYMENT.


Are you happy with that? If not, then you should not agree to it. He does not need to be "enthusiastic" about stopping something that makes you unhappy because he shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

He needs to stop the porn REGARDLESS of what you do. Will he stop the porn use and open up his computer to you so you can check it occasionally?

You are GETTING THERE, but you need to drive this deal home. This is not done yet. So go back to him and make these points.

I want you to drive this point home. Memorize this talking point and say it repeatedly:

"If you ask me to do something I don't enjoy then you can "trust" it won't be done. Therefore the solution is to only focus on things we both enjoy."

We're having dinner out tonight so I'll discuss this more with him then. He will not be asking me to perform anything bizarre or unusual in those two nights a week -- I have an idea and I'm ok with it. My main problem has always been the fact that he's made me feel in the past that our relationship is only as good as our last SF encounter, and that made me feel very insecure -- this and the fact that I feel his thinking has been fueled by his longtime porn use. Unfortunately, in his previous marriages he was able to get his xws to look at porn, which is one reason he thinks I'm a prude.

I still feel we're on shaky ground as he is a type A person used to having his way and living independently within his previous marriages.

I can wear a dress once a week, though I'm really a jeans and sweater person.

Dr Harley would call this controlling and abusive. He makes selfish demands and then punishes you when you don't comply. That is how sexual aversions and incompatibility are created.

As long as you are EXCITED and ENTHUSIASTIC about it, you should do that. If not, you should not. Because if you make this sacrifice pretty soon you will be looking for excuses to not do it. If you do it grudgingly, you will be resentful and he will be resentful when you stop.

What you should be doing is finding something to wear that makes you BOTH happy. I won't wear a dress, but I will wear cute, low cut tops with a nice jacket and heels and my husband LOVES it.

So once again, you must BOTH love it. It is up you to stop making sacrifices. Don't wreck your marriage through the practice of sacrifice.

Erase anything about which you are not enthusiastic. VERY IMPORTANT!!!

And yes, his porn use has warped your relationship in a horrible way. If he calls you a "prude" I would explain that is extremely disrespectful and ask him to stop.

Melody yes, I recognize the signs of someone who could be abusive in a passive aggressive way - the fact that he gives the silent treatment, blames me for problems in the relationship, never says he's sorry when he hurts my feelings, and lacks deep compassion when I've been ill in the past. Unfortunately I saw none of these red flgs while he was courting me -- now I realize that is how these things work. But we are married now and I'm willing to work on things as long as I feel he is too.

BB, you really should strongly consider going through the MB program. My marriage started off horribly too. It was my 3rd marriage and I caught my H having internet affairs right after we were married! I thought our marriage was doomed and was ready to end the marriage. We accidentally stumbled upon Marriage Builders through local counselor [a miracle in itself] and went through the MB program in 2007. We have a great marriage today and our problems were as bad as yours. I felt exactly as you do that my H only viewed me as a sexual outlet. That has changed dramatically. I feel very cared for by him. You would greatly benefit from the MB program.

It runs about $1000 and takes about a year. They assign you a trained MB coach and Dr Harley personally supervises your case. You would have daily access to him on the private forum. Check it out here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_program3.html

Your coach contacts you weekly and guides you through the program. She would help you navigate the obstacles and speak to both you and your husband. If she can't get anywhere with your husband, Dr Harley would speak to him.

And Dr Harley is not going to put up with his control and abuse.

I'm so happy you are seemingly being heard. But you have along way to go and will both need support. The MB program is a great idea. Also you might get an appointment with Steve Harley. Your husband giving up porn will be easier said then done. His withdrawal likely won't be pretty and you already know you don't want to play porn star. Only agree to what you will enjoy. Sure you can try something such as wearing a dress 1 time per week and see if that suits you. But if it doesn't you can't continue.

I was thinking you might have fun going shopping with your husband and find outfits you both like.

Anyway please consider a structured program for the two of you and coaching. I'm so glad you stood up.

Thanks Melody, grace and all. I gave him a copy of His Needs Her Needs, which if followed, is the prescription for a successful marriage. If he reads it and tries to follow the principles, we'll be on a much better footing. He's a highly intelligent guy so I hope he can understand why the book makes sense. I'd like to try it this way first.

There is nothing passive about the things you describe!

Here is a clip on passive aggressiveness.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3873

This morning he says he thinks we should separate.

He said that based on everything that's transpired, plus the fact that we had problems in our other relationship ( the hs break--up) he questions our ability to ever be happy together.

He says there's nothing more to say - everything's been said before.

I think he is done.

BB, I am so sorry. But surely you can see that if he won't commit to making changes, that this is the best thing? Can you imagine living your life out with someone who only has you around for sex? And who makes selfish demands about how you meet them, never caring about your happiness? That is a miserable marriage.

On the other hand, if you make it clear what changes you need when you separate, that might motivate him to make the necessary changes for reconciliation.

I had racing heartbeats last night, and he wasn't very supportive or caring. I should have known he was working up to leaving.

He's done this so many times before, he already has it worked out re how to emotionally disconnect and walk away. Three wives before me -- I'm now about to become the one he'll tell his next gf about -- the one who was a prude and had issues about sex.

I'm angry, heartbroken and really don't know what to say to him anymore. He left for the cottage this am and said not to contact him - he needed time to work through things.

I'm not sure I feel like trying to salvage this marriage because I feel like I may have married someone like my exh.

I am so sorry, BB.

I assume you are not buying this blame shifting and his pontifications about your past.

The real reason he is talking separation is he does not want to give up porn. He told you he would stop and now faced with the reality he can't make himself stop.

You have presented him with a plan for the here and now and your future together. Again, he is showing you his warped mirror so you can help him continue his porn. He needs you to have this fear of abandonment be a big deal. He is blowing it up out of proportion. You have seen this before.

Don't buckle. Don't show fear ---even if you do feel fear. Its OK you feel this way. You are going to be alright.

You will likely be surprised to find he has more fears and insecurities than you do. Stay true to yourself.

Ignore these statements about your history and separation. Stay in command of the situation. You choose whether to separate on the terms you have stated.

Tell him you appreciate how hard it is to give up porn and that he will need support during this transition. But you still need him to give it up for your marriage to continue. Keep driving this point home.

So, you are his 4th wife?

What's the common denominator in these 4 failed marriages???
HE is.


Ahemmm...I think that he might be taking...and has been taking....other women to this cottage. His porn addiction, plus his sexual proclivities suggests to me that he hires prostitutes.

Not wanting to make the situation worse...just saying that I think you need to consider that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for you to fix this....or him.

committed

Bluebird,

I'm very sorry for you this morning, but I am proud of you for standing up for your marriage and making an great effort to communicate to him what will work in order for the marriage to work. You did very well. I like it that you gave him a copy of His Needs, Her Needs. Very good idea. Seems to me, though, that he is only interested in "His Needs."

I agree with Melody that at this point the separation is your best shot creating a change in him. You are letting him know that you mean what you say and you say what you mean. If this doesn't make him snap out of his fog, nothing will.

If he chooses to remain a desperado there is nothing you can do about it, except maybe warn his future love interests about the danger they are in.

Keep us updated on how you are doing. Again, very, very sorry.

God bless you.

I was distraught when I posted. I'm his third - guess I can't keep track of it all. I'm having a hard time thinking or even moving and have been crying all day.

thanks for your advice and support. I just can't see any future.

Dr. Harley would advise you to ask your doctor for some ADs. Can you do this?

Separation will be a walk in the park for him - he's done this so many times before with his xws and then that's not even counting the women he may have lived with along the way. I know of at least one who trashed his place when they broke up.

He did tell me about all of this before so I can't say I was in the dark. I knew he had quite a lurid history with women. I was just a foolish lady who bought into the idea of first love being the best love - an idea he encouraged. I guess I thought I could make him whole.

How dumb was that.

I'm already on Ativan from my first marriage. I didn't want to take any more meds and end up completely drug dependent. The thought of him being out there and having SF with someone else is killing. But I can't see him going without if we separate for longer than a few weeks.

I suspect he used a script with you that he's used on all the others. He is a charming snake, and his go-to approach always works for him.

On to the next for him. Sorry.

Maybe talk to your doctor about increasing your dosage and/or adding an add-on script.

You need to realize that this wasn't you that had the issues, but him. That's why he's had so many failed relationships. He may never get it and I'm sorry you got caught up in it.

But he won't do that if he is serious about making the necessary changes in your marriage. And if he is not serious, then you will be better off divorced.

He sent me an e-mail when I asked if we were over:

"You need to read my words. I'm am simply saying that the past is too painful to contemplate and the future is unknown. Therefore it is senseless to discuss either. I do know I feel a lot of disappointment about our relationship(s), so I would question our ability to be happy with one another, based on history."

This is him -cold and clinical. He has cut off emotionally. He is done.

I hope you realize that what he is telling you is a load of quack.
He knew your 'history' (I don't even know if 50 years ago in high would qualify as relationship history in my book) when he married you. And he did not more know the future than he does now.

Perhaps I missed the segment in ghe marriage ceremony were it says "to have and to hold as long as you consent to regularly watch porn with me and totally abide by my wishes and my wishes alone, selflessly sacrificing your own happiness to be my sex slave, whose only right it is to be enthusiastically available, whenever I care to want sex (the way I want it). You hereby give up the right to have any say in your own sex life, on how you dress and for this you gain the privilege to be called my wife, but do not expect any niceties in return. And, by the way, if you ever do find that you have wishes and opinions of you own, I will have the right to punish you as I see fit and you may even lose this exquisite privilege to be on call for my sexual convenience."

Must have missed that, because he sure seems to think that that's what was said...

He would have had SF every day -- I would have been more enthusiastic, but he constantly made me feel that it was my only value. Only good as the last encounter. When he talks about happiness, it's his code word for SF.

I think if I were younger, I would have been able to stand up to him fearlessly, but I'm not young anymore, and the prospect of spending my days and nights alone from now on has always been my biggest fear. He will always have a companion of some sort and his own two children. I don't know what the future holds for me now.

I'm so sorry BB. I'm sure you see living in a lonely, unloved marriage is definitely something you don't want to be any part of, correct? You do realize you deserve a wonderful marriage and husband, correct?

What kind of things can you do to help you be more independent? Are there any groups you're a part of? Church?

No not really. I'm kind of shy and reserved. My xh took care of everything until he got ill. I found that very difficult and lonely. Meeting current H seemed like a miracle and it was because I didn't have to do the dating scene at all - he just showed up at our high school reunion and we were like glue from then on. I thought I'd never have to worry about being alone again. I can't see anyone in my future if the marriage breaks down. Men my age want younger most times - one thing I can say for current H is that my age wasn't an issue. Too bad so much else was.

We are the same age and I went through gut wrenching agonies when my 30 year marriage broke down just as my children were reaching adulthood. Eventually I realised that I was going to be happier alone than in a marriage where I would have to check on my spouse 24/7.

I got a dog, started to do yoga and volunteered twice a week teaching adult literacy. Those were all life changing things. I had forgotten about myself.

Very slowly I started to meet people as I emerged. There are actually tons of single men of our age out there and many of them are not deadbeats at all! Best of all, the good ones are not interested in dating younger women, they want someone of their own age. Because I am from the UK and a very unusual cultural background, I never thought it would amount to more than just social stuff but I met someone from the same background who is a wonderful person who treats me like a princess. We are now married. You can do it.

I'm happy for you LW. Right now I'm traumatized. I hear what you're saying though. I've been told I look younger than my chronological age etc but even so I don't feel like I will ever have the heart to go through it all again. I am depressed and have been about my H.

Will you please talk to your doctor about adding an add on to your AD? It would only be temporary until you get through this period. Do you exercise?

Some but not enough. It's just one more thing to do alone. I'm sitting here right now knowing that if I dropped dead no one would know for days. That's how I felt when H left for the cottage and didn't call or email for four days. Ugh I have to stop the circular thinking. I'll talk to my doctor.

thanks

BB, I would start making plans to separate. How would this happen? Do you live in your home or his?

Do you have family or one of your kids or a girlfriend you can spend a few days with?

Can you start to make plans to separate?

Have you been begging and pleading with him? His message indicates he believes you are able to be manipulated into meeting his selfish demands. Is that true?

Is he in control?

I sent him a few sad e-mails saying I loved him but he just said h couldn't deal with the emotions etc. He sent me the same kind of cold and clinical e-mails when he would ambush me about his unhappiness with our SF. Once he did it when I was away visiting my mom so I was helpless to try and deal with it all from a distance - it was if he purposely waited for me to go away so he could confront me in a sort of passive-aggressive way.

Yes he is in control -- the same way my other H was.

I'm in his home but I have a small home that exh and I bought a long time ago. I could go there I suppose but it's 6 hours away by car. I really don't have anywhere else to go. No kids and brothers (3) are busy with their own kids and lives. Lost a lot of friends years ago when exh H died.

Why don't you plan on going there? Pack your clothes and get away. I think he needs to see that you are not so desperate that you will hang around to be his option when the spirit moves him. He really has no motivation to change as long as he believes this.

I believe he expects you sit there sobbing waiting for him to grace you with his exalted presence while he treats you as an OPTION. Stop being his option and make a decision to set some boundaries on how you are treated. You DEMEAN and devalue yourself by sitting there waiting for him. It is also very unattractive to him.

Take back control of your life and show him you are not afraid to lose him.

I would get packed and leave in the morning. Send him a nice email before you leave that goes something like this:

Dear Joe,

I have decided it would be better for me to separate while I consider the future of our marriage. Our marriage has become a very unhappy place for me where my needs are not being met. This makes it very hard and unappealing to meet your needs for sex. Your use of pornography and constant demands on me to provide sex have made this marriage untenable for me.

I would like this marriage to work out, but I can't stay under the current conditions. If you will agree to give up the pornography for life and become willing to learn to make me happy, I would be willing to discuss reconciliation. Until that happens, it would be better for us both if we are apart.

All my love, Bluebird

Ok Melody. I'll start getting ready to leave in the am and leave a note as above. I've probably already made myself look pretty pathetic in his eyes but what's done is done.

I guarantee you that he will FLIP OUT if you take that approach and be much much more willing to do what it takes to make you happy. Right now, he is trying to manipulate and terrorize you into abandoning any and all conditions just to keep him around to grace you with his presence.

He won't get serious until he believe that YOU are serious. And sending him that letter and moving out will do exactly that, I predict.

You need to make him CHASE you and if he doesn't do that, then this is not worth it.

As you leave the house, I want you to send him that message. Does he have a way to retrieve emails?

yes he has his phone

How about driving to your other home and THEN sending him that email once you get there?

Way to go BB! Way to take your life back, my friend.

You will so much better.

And I want you to think about putting your emotions aside and doing what is right for Bluebird. Right now your emotions are telling you to do stupid things. You and I are close to the same age so I know you understand. Please set those emotions aside and force yourself to do what is right FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. Your emotions are not your friend right now and you need MRS LOGIC to step in and save Bluebird.

Mrs LOGIC, please help Bluebird pack her bags and load her car up so she can leave in the morning. Have her pack as much as she can fit into the car in case she needs to be away a very long time.

Once that is done, please help her sit down and type out an email that she can send once she gets to her other home.

We are here with you Mrs LOGIC!!

Believe me, I have had to call on Mrs LOGIC many times over the years to come to my rescue.

Me too!!

Thank You! I'm on my way to other house.

Good girl!!

Awesome BB. When you arrive at your other home, get yourself oriented and find something to get yourself engaged in so you are with others. Go to church, take an exercise class, do a craft class, sit with others in a coffee shop, get a massage, take a bubble bath, take a walk in nature, and yes see a doctor and get on an antidepressant. Break yourself out of the negative feedback loop. Take really good care of yourself. Treat yourself with high esteem even if you don't feel like it.

Hang in there Bluebird!!

I haven't heard from him and my thoughts are wandering. How do you get past the pain of looking at pictures from happier times, love e-mails he once sent, etc??

How does one keep from dwelling on these things? How does anyone ever get through separation and/or divorce?

Bluebird, are you ok? Did you reach your other home? Can you send him your letter now?

Hi Melody - I sent it an hour ago and haven't heard anything. I may not hear from him at all for days or perhaps not at all. How much time should I give him to respond?

I'm having a very hard time refraining from sending him another pathetic note about how much I love him and how at our age we need one another -- words that don't necessarily move him anymore since he seems to have fallen out of love with me. You saw how clinical he can be in his earlier response - so different from the wonderful man who wrote at first how much he would cherish me.

Please promise me you will not send him ANYTHING. Will you do this? It would be a strategic mistake if you contact him. He should not see that you are desperate or needy because he will use it to manipulate you.

Sending him another email will make you appear unattractive and will only hurt you when he either doesn't respond or responds coldly.

I should know better as it's happened before when we've had issues. I get very cold responses and feel gaslighted. I will take your advice, thanks so much.

I know your feelings are going to push you to contact him, but you can't let them win. They are misleading you to do things that will cause you more harm. Everytime you resist your feelings when they push you to do stupid things, you will be stronger and stronger, until it becomes second nature to put your feelings aside.

Right now it is in your best interest to NOT contact him at all. If he contacts you, then don't take his call. If he sends you an email, don't respond but come here and post it. We will help you answer in a way that strengthens your position.

I'll do as you advise then, but I'm afraid over the past week I've already made myself look pretty weak and I have sobbed on the phone once.

This is very hard for me as I'm what's called a Highly Sensitive Person and very emotional. I'm also depressed and anxious so not even thinking clearly I suppose. Thank Goodness for you and the others.

A huge part of your depression and your anxiety is coming from decisions that have been made at the behest of your emotions. Your emotions have led you into the ditch, my friend. You will be LESS depressed and anxious once you stop doing that. It is a very emotional situation and that is where we can help. We are not emotional and can help you navigate this situation.

thank you

Bluebird; my father died when he was 74, three months before my parents were due to to celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary with HRH. My mother remarried just three months later to someone who she had known for many years and who had been a widower for 12 years. She died in his arms two years ago and he stopped eating after that and died himself six months later.

They should have been happy, they adored each other but they never could stop fighting. By the end they lived in separate houses. The problem was that they did not negotiate. As we get older negotiation becomes increasingly important. At 18 none of us know (or care about) what we want. By the time we are 60, we are pretty fixed in our ways. My mother and stepfather did not negotiate during their courtship because it was too short and did not therefore carry that skillset into their marriage. It was sad to see two people who ought to have been happy, be so miserable.

You may get an opportunity to put this right. Somebody helped direct you here, I hope you get a chance to see this through. If it does not work out that way, know that you tried.

Bluebird,
As you know, the only way this marriage is going to be worthwhile and healthy for you is if your husband changes. If you open up to your husband and pour out your heart, he will not take the separation seriously. The separation is the only thing that you have going for you that can knock some sense into him and prod him to change. And he may not change. Certainly his pattern would indicate he's a rogue and a womanizer and he won't be happy in a monogamous relationship. But if there is a chance that he will change out of love for you, separating from him and letting him know that you are holding your ground is your only shot.

I know you are hurting. You are, in fact, grieving, and that is very hard. But be strong and let your faith help you through this. I would suggest, as others have, that you give your time to church and activities. Find service opportunities. There is something about giving and service that fills the empty spaces in our soul.

You are doing very, very well.

He sure talks a lot for someone who is done, doesn't he? I wonder when he is going to be done, being done?



The dating scene IS horrible. But don't accept slavery just because you dislike applying for jobs. Think long term not short term.



There are men of ALL ages who want younger. I am 35 and when I went online, by far the biggest 'audience' I attracted was men in their fifties. Blueerghh. Talk about a giveaway that they watch porn. Men my own age were going for teens and twenties. But that was a HELPFUL red flag. I knew to avoid them and it worked out well. There are nice men! Lets not give in to sexism just because desperados abound.



I had a late shift shortly after kicking my H out. I thought about how if I was attacked on the way to my car no one would know for days. It made me sob.

Later I decided that really, having someone at home who wouldn't care beyond calling the police isn't much of an improvement is it?

Now every single person in my life has earned their place there because they really care about me. Getting rid of my husband was needed to make room for these people.

Use Mrs Logic to free yourself knowing that a husband who does not care enough to chase you is a boulder who will drag you into unhappy depths.

You deserve better and we are going to see you get it.

Wonderful posts from Indiegirl and MelodyLane, Bluebird!

You now know that if you went missing for a day, you already have at least two people who would notice. You're not alone, now.

The advice you are getting is advice I could have used earlier in my life, and will from the present onwards. If he doesn't reach out for you, doesn't come seek you out like the greatest treasure you are, then he doesn't deserve you and your committed care. I know it hurts when they don't, for so many reasons, but over time and sticking to your guns like MelodyLane is advising will heal that hurt. No matter how old you are, you will eventually begin to feel happy and worthwhile rather than worthless and defeated. You'll be wanting to go out and meet people and do activities, and you can go to groups instead of "the dating scene." You have so much potential, carefree fun in front of you.

BB,
Did you pack up most of your possessions from your home with husband and drive the 6 hours to your former home? I want to make sure you did make it to the other home? Forgive me, but I did not see that you confirmed you had arrived to your other home?

Thank you for all the encouraging words this morning. I still feel down, but not quite as gut wrenchingly down as the past few days. Besides, I doubt that H feels this badly. He's BTDT.

Yes grace I did take things with me in case I'm here a long while. Arrived yesterday afternoon.

Also, Ativan is not an antidepressant. Its a short acting anti-anxiety medication like valium that one can become very dependent. Big difference. See your doctor and ask about an anti depressant anyway. Ativan should have merely been a temporary measure.

I'm just saying take a fresh look at your present situation and get a complete physical. Yes, you don't want to be completely medicalized, but you consistently describe yourself falling into depressive cycles when reacting to your husbands behaviors.

A) No one cares what he thinks. Probably circus tunes for the most part.
b) Didn't you say one of his exes trashed the place? He has been there done THAT. He hasn't been there done THIS. I doubt his exes were MBers. I doubt they left while there was still promise, with class and dignity. Now, there was one ex who had a 'road map for the marriage' who came close but I don't think that was a full tilt MBer. After trying reason, she maybe stayed to cajole and coax before giving up and trashing the joint.

Now even if every ex was a top level MBer, and he HAS been there done that, I still refer you to A).

I just think a man who'd been able to leave previous marriages and mot look back -- as well as a couple of "renter" arrangements along the way -- does not get broken up about these things. I know he has a way to disconnect, compartmentalize and move on.

I was reading about Narcissistic PD and he seems to have some of the traits, in particular, lacking empathy.

My deceased H was the same minus the marriages and cheating. He was simply completely neglectful of my needs and thought it was perfectly ok to have a sexless marriage.

BB, I think one of the best things you can do for yourself is to start creating a full life for yourself. What kinds of things do you enjoy doing?

Well I've applied for a dog through a rescue site, enjoy gardening, music, wanted to take piano lessons again. I love being outside for walks too. Just quiet enjoyment.

You might also consider group activities, where you could build an enjoyable social life. Perhaps a bicycling club, exercise classes, a dance class with other women, a hiking group, a Bible study. Good friends aren't easy to find, but a group is a good place to start.

Getting some distance:

-You won't have to worry about what your husband is doing, not doing, might do, will do, has done...

-you don't have to compare yourself to porn stars, husbands past wives, his future victims...

-you do not have to even be too concerned with the loses...

You can now be excited for your own future. It is still to be determined but at least you are helping to direct your own future...

Again I hope you consider a visit to your doctor.

Chances are your husbands so called personality disorder is simply his brain on porn.

How about working with rescue dogs as a volunteer or joining a gardening club?

Do you have an IM lined up for your Plan B?

x2

Those are good ideas - The rescue people are coming in a few weeks so I may get more info about volunteering etc.

I'm still obsessively checking e-mail for anything but of course he is silent as stone. I'm not calling either.

You need to shut down that email and set up a new one, so you won't be tempted to look.

I think it's so much worse for me because we were highschool sweethearts, then lost one another for decades, then found one another again -- and now lost again. It seems incredible he would treat me this way, or that I somehow wasn't able to make him happy.

ugh

I mean me personally, not comparing myself to anyone else.

You really must stop thinking in these circles, because it will drive you nuts. The fact is that if your H is not willing to integrate you into his life and until he agrees to only do things that you are enthusiastic about, your marriage will continue to be a great disappointment to you, a disaster even.

Try to get involved with something enjoyable. And when you find yourself thinking of what might have been, start thinking of something else.

Have you changed your email yet?

No, just stopped checking it.

Both you and your husband are using your nostalgic memories as a baseline for your relationship. This orientation has you seriously lost and depressed. Nostalgic Memory is an idealized perspective of the past. Its a sanitized version of your history.

You are losing a 'screen image' of your past. You have attempted to play the screen image of your husbands nostalgia but its offensive. And he no longer fits your screen image.

Now you gotta get past the nostalgia and figure out if you can work together towards honest compatibility.

There is nothing wrong with feeling despair over this. You are in grief. Respect it.

But you also have to put one foot in front of the other and make a new life for yourself.

From what you have described you were in marriages with two men who were takers, and it seems to me that you have been conditioned to feeling like a failure because you couldn't always satisfy their selfish demands. These men have battered your self esteem. This must stop.

You have done well to take the advice of those posting here. Continue to move forward, and find things to do that will bring satisfaction and fulfillment. I agree with the reader who said you should also do group activities.

I know. But I also know he can't go more than two days without SF without feeling tense , so he's either using a lot of porn or doing something worse. I can't seem to get unstuck from these feelings and also the feeling that if only I'd been better at it, none of this would have happened.

Better at it? No. That's your husband's manipulation at work. Again, stop letting his selfish demands define you. This will carry over into new relationships and its not good for you.

Mmmmm. Take it from a fellow Plan Ber, that even when you aren't checking it you are thinking it. The phone ticks like a bomb.. when will it go off? Same with your email, until you can think of a legitimate reason to 'check' it.

Best to close off all possibility of contact, for sanity's sake, and let him prove to an IM that he is serious.



Well, sure. You can't just tell your feelings to flip over for your convenience. They are feelings. They just follow on from actions.

Your feelings won't change until your actions change. Until you close off contact your thoughts are stuck on contact, and on him.

The more you get out and do stuff for you, and the more you seal off from his neglect, the better.

It never would have happened if he cared about you. If you have to perform in bed like an 18 yr old porn star to keep your husband in the marriage, then that marriage is dead.

Do you feel loved and cherished when you have sex with him? Or do you feel used?

Not in the beginning, but a year later, when he blindsided me with an e-mail about how I was not good in bed and he needed more, was not willing to settle etc... After that, I felt my self-confidence undermined. He also ruined an Easter Sunday, a very important holy day for me, by demanding sex that morning and then being angry when I asked him simply wait until later in the day. I remember crying a bit in church that day, thinking how could this be, and he totally ignored my distress.

So I guess the answer is that towards the last few months and even before that I did not always feel cherished, but more like I was meeting his adolescent fantasies about me.

Mmmmm. It was the 'blander sex' comment that really stuck in my craw.

A man who cherishes his wife wouldn't dream of making such insulting assertations.

Like you are a performing seal and he has nothing to do with the quality of the relationship or the SF.

That really reminded me of this couple I have an acquaintanceship with. The H jokingly referred to his wife as 'frigid' at a party in front of all her friends. Funny, right? She's a bad actor usually but she just nodded and laughed along too. She was clearly used to it. I would have had no problem putting all my money on a bet that her H uses porn.

I have come across a number of wives in this situation in real life. Before they get 'blindsided' for not being good-enough performing seals they all tell me their men aren't very good in bed.

They have this seemingly adoring man, who is a bit clueless and ahem, selfish in bed. But you know, they don't care they will overlook it. The love is more important, right? It's because the man in question is rather used to sitting back and watching a woman fake it. They simply don't get the dynamic that it is the woman who is to be pleased, not them. That's why Dr H goes on for pages about female desire.

I sometimes think how unfair these wives must feel that they've overlooked how bad HE is in bed only to then get criticised themselves. But you know it is more important to him, so they will try!

It never occurs to any of them that ban the porn and you will get rid of the contrast effect.

I really think he's been angry about our highschool break up all these years, or he wouldn't always bring the subject up whenever we have issues. Sometimes I really feel that the reason he wanted me so badly was to prove to himself he could finally get me to have sex with him, and then to prove my real love for him, I had to be the sexual partner he wanted, or he wouldn't be happy.

It's so sad.

BB, are you getting out and doing things you enjoy? What about joining a gym?

I'm having a hard time feeling motivated to do much. It's like I just lost my entire future. Sort of like a death. This is so much worse than losing my first husband.

Sure he would. It's clearly most effective at controlling you. Controlling you is his thing.

Why else would he bring up a problem you can't help with except to make you feel bad?

Use logic!



Yes. Ugh.



Performing seal duty did not feature in your vows. It is not what you signed on for.

Real life actions, exercise, sleep, food, anti depressants if necessary and most definitely Plan B.

Going back to performing seal duty will NOT help.

BB, you will be in a much better position to make sound, rational decisions the more detached you are from him. That will take about 2-3 weeks. Can you commit to keeping yourself shut off from him for 3 weeks? I think that will make a world of difference in your outlook and your decision making abilities.

After a couple of weeks, you will be amazed at how much better you feel.

I know you don't feel motivated to do anything, but this is where you have to push yourself to get out because feelings follow ACTIONS. If you will put aside your emotions [no easy feat] and get out and do something, you will feel better much faster.

Can you force yourself to get out and do something?

It was three weeks for me, BB.

Yes, I can go to the bookstore tomorrow. Today it's raining. But Melody, that also means in three weeks or less, H will be even further detached from me. There will be no hope then. He told me he didn't want to contact because he wanted to work on things - that means he wants to work on moving on. I know him -- he's done this before.

Are you saying he is a hopeless case?

I don't think so personally, but if he is, then shouldn't you concentrate on something else? On you?

So what are you doing today?

just reading and listening to Pandora on the computer. Drinking tea. I put away his picture and the picture of us together when we first reconnected. I'm going to go stay with my mom for a few days tomorrow and visit with my cousin. I can't be alone too much because I just think and think.

thanks Indie, Melody, Just, grace and everyone here for your thoughts and concerns. You are all very good people. I'll update in a week or so -- there are others here who need you and while I'm sad and scared I know that this too shall pass.

Remember to go and find some fun active activities that will bring you some enjoyment. Exercise is very good for you at any time but particularly when you are feeling depressed. It's hard to overcome the inertia but I can promise you that when you get out there for a brisk walk or a stint in the gym or sign up for a dance class, you really will feel better.

That is a marvellous plan.

I think he is already checked out of the relationship. That is where you need to get so you can employ better judgement about your decisions. If he has decided he is " moving on" then detachment is in your best interest. You shouldn't even consider taking him back unless he comes to you on bended knee and commits to your conditions.

I don't think it will happen Melody. We went through a similar scenario about a year ago to the day. When a man is done, he's done - I read that on this site somewhere. He thinks I can't cut it sexually for him and so he will move on to someone who will.

Now how do I move on, that's my big worry.

Use Dr. Harley's Plan B.

No, you heard that in an aftershave commercial.There is no woman on this planet who is going to want a permanent relationship with a selfish guy like this.

You go into plan b and move on.

Plan B has two important components: no contact, and time. If you do plan B properly, over time you will not worry about what he's doing and it won't matter to you. Right now you're still believing something is wrong with you because he's been telling you that. Be patient with yourself because it takes a long time to get to the point where you realize that being "better at it" wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference in whether he would show you care. You would have been rewarded for "being better at it" with a pile more of his wants to cater to, believe me. Your plan B keeps you from living in that kind of h***.

The last time this happened, he came back about a month later promising he would love and cherish me always. That "promise" lasted about six months - he even made New Year's Day miserable over sex.

I can't imagine being able to hang in for a Plan B but I'll have to stick to my guns if he doesn't come to me with his own plan for restoration.

Bluebird,
Exercise and activity have helped many, many of us through grief. The natural high of the endorphins, as I just explained to another poster on this site, will help ease your emptiness.

It's great that you are staying with your mom and visiting your cousin. That will help you over the next three weeks.

Do you remember I suggested that you do service? Well, today I went to a food locker to get help for a lady that my wife knows who has lost her home and is destitute. I thought of you while I was there, because I was watching how happy and fulfilled the volunteers were in working together to help the poor. They were truly happy. One of them is a former colleague of mine who lost her husband a few years ago. Service ministries are a great way to meet other good people and feel purposeful. Something to think about.

That was good of you Just to think of me while helping the less fortunate.

I've been very wrapped up in both of my H's to the detriment of my own self growth and reaching out to others. You're right -- it is something to think about and do.

I would not say your situation is the same as one year ago when your husband took off for one month.

You are here now. You are learning and growing and not shrinking to fit your husbands perverse notions.

You have left him and you are holding yourself accountable. You are seeing yourself as worthy.

You have made new friends here and we are standing with you. You are using logic and learning to moderate your emotions.

A lot has happened in a short time frame. Give yourself credit and certainly keep going.

Do you see how the MB men are getting offended by this view that all men want is a sex doll or 'they're done'? Lots of men think like this! Most actually.



That's so sad, BB. You must have been constantly waiting for the next assault. I think you'll be surprised at how AMAZING you feel once you're through withdrawal.

I also bet he is likely to pull this 'return from dones-ville' trick. He is a well practiced manipulator - but he won't be expecting the protection of Plan B.

I'd set your conditions in place now and tell your IM what they are. Your IM won't allow him to resume contact with you until he has a plan which assures marital recovery. Plans not promises! Tell your IM to not even mention that he got in touch unless he gets in touch with a plan. There is an IM training thread we can direct her to. The IM can also deal with any low level things like finances.

I know you're going to say, there's no need because 'he's done'. That's irrelevant. We don't care what he thinks or what he is likely to do or say. We need to put a plan in place for your recovery and that involves setting your conditions now so you don't have to think any more about it.

Thank you all. Sometimes I feel I've made him look too much like a villain. He did a lot of good for me initially. He paid some of my bills, he took care of everything, he made me feel safe and loved. He took me to places I'd never been too and once planned an elaborate picnic by the sea where we could watch whales. My former H never did anything like this and never cared to.

He never asked me to do anything around the house and did it all himself - maybe that was because of his "single man" lifestyle, I'm not sure. He thought he treated me like a princess and in many ways he did - he would brush the snow off my car and did many of those little things I cherished. He used t bring my coffee to me in the am too.

But when he started to feel angry about the SF, a lot of that care and attention went away. Before we separated, he said good SF would result in many good things for me. I just couldn't respond to that because I was so bewildered and off balance and often wondering if he was looking at porn. I think my baggage from my sexless previous marriage must have also handicapped me in many ways too.

I just wrote him a love letter and it's sitting in draft on my computer. Please stop me from sending it to him!!!

I don't think he is a villain at all! Just a human man being very abusive because he has learned it works. Who among us hasn't done that? I think it is most human to be tempted and to succumb. In fact, I had the higher SF need in my marriage and though I never got angry about it I definitely tried some SD's and made out like I was owed it. I was horrendous and abusive. However I know that if I had been Plan B'd over it I would have got on board with Plan B, rather than lose my marriage.

We have probably all done it, used a lovebuster to 'force' our spouses when it comes to a need that we, well, need. However you can't allow it and only he can change his abusive habits. You are urging he do this without ANY lovebusters at all. He gets to choose FREELY in Plan B and the path back to the marriage is open!



My Plan B letter was phrased with some love letter elements with the help of the wonderful Pepperband. If you post your love letter here, I will edit the Plan B letter to include some of your love letter too. That will give a wonderful lovebank boost just as the contact door slams shut.

I would usually tell a BW to send it as a last 'good taste' of Plan A, but unfortunately you and he are in this pattern where you chase and he views it as a weakness in you. However I think loving messages come over very strong when combined with Plan B.

This is my letter:

Dearest xxxx:

When we married we entrusted our happiness to one another. We knew there would be challenges ahead -- we both had had painful pasts -- but we believed that as a couple we had the strength and the love to work everything out, though it might take a long time.

Love requires compassion, empathy and a heart for the other's struggles. At times I did not sense your struggles and pain; at times you did not sense mine. But we're human and perfection resides only in Heaven. I hope you forgive me for my human failings, and the times I disappointed you. I loved you deeply through it all - and I know you loved me.

I want to be your best friend and lover and you mine. But for that to happen we must agree on a plan of restoration -- a plan that will meet our most important personal needs, one that does not involve sacrifice from either one of us.

I realize you may not want to hear from me right now but we may not be in contact for some time and I wanted you to know my deepest hopes for our relationship and my willingness to make things better.


God be with you.

bluebird

That's very similar to a Plan B letter anyway!

I would go with:

Dearest xxxx:

When we married we both had had painful pasts - but we believed that as a couple we had the strength and the love to work everything out, though it might take a long time.

At times I did not sense your struggles and pain; at times you did not sense mine. But we're human and perfection resides only in Heaven. I hope you forgive me for my human failings, and the times I disappointed you. I loved you deeply through it all - and I know you loved me.

I want to be your best friend and lover and you mine. But for that to happen we must agree on a plan of restoration -- a plan that will meet our most important personal needs, one that does not involve sacrifice from either one of us.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your porn use once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until this ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. My friend, ________, will be available if you need to reach me. If you need to communicate with me on any matter, it will have to be through her.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your porn use. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day.

With all my love,
(signed)


God be with you.

bluebird

I'm unsure about the God be with you - didn't you say he wasn't religious? It's fine if he is.

He isn't religious, but he knows that's what I would write in a letter. That looks good. I have to think a bit about sending it though - I'm afraid he'll write back something hurtful or cold.

The whole point of the Plan B letter is that there is no opportunity for them to respond.

You would not send this until you were ready to go with your IM and your contact details were changed. Your IM would not tell you about his response. She would not even tell you if he had (unless he was fully on board with recovery).

You shouldn't receive any response this way.

Keep hold of it until your preps are done.

I like this letter much more than the last one. This one is much more of a love letter and was what I had in mind when I suggested you write him when you were still with him in the house. Now that the Plan B elements have been included (nice integration, Indie) you have communicated to him your love, admiration, and affection, but have also shared what it is that is necessary for the marriage to live.

It will push him away and just assure him that he is in complete control and can continue to manipulate you.

Do you want to be rejected again? He will use rejection as a punishment tactic until you comply. Do you want to be treated this way?

No not at all. So should I just not send him anything then - not the above letter? Just go completely silent?

I think it is a good idea to go into an official Plan B like indie suggested, but I hadn't read her revised letter when I made that post. Can you post the letter you sent him on Sunday? Did oyu send him the one I wrote for you?

I sent him the one above - but knowing him it probably really upset him, as I've never before addressed him in that tone. I doubt many women have and the ones who do, don't last long.

Have you contacted him since you sent that letter?

No - that would be breaking Plan B but ttytt I'm afraid to contact him.

I am so proud of you for resisting the temptation to contact him!!!

I would just stand pat for now and if he starts contacting you, THEN you can send him a true Plan B letter. Sending it now would seem odd since he has not been contacting you.

Sorry, BB I hadn't realised there was already a Plan B letter in the works.



I like this plan.

Thanks. Just worried that it could be weeks before I hear from in and in that time I wouldn't trust him to be faithful. He has too strong of a drive. I know that makes him sound awful but when I think of his past....'

oh well.

Indiegirl, she sent him that letter on Sunday.

Sorry for the confusion.

You can't worry about what he will or will not do. If he doesn't respond with actions and words of reconciliation, then you have your answer. It doesn't matter if your plan B letter was perfect or not, he knows what you're saying is that you aren't going to be bullied into, guilted into, terrified into giving into his demands, and that's the message you want him to hear. It's a fact that you can't love someone enough and do enough their way to finally get them to stop abusive behavior-if anything, all that effort just makes it worse.

The ball is in his court, so don't go pick it up and put it in his hand for him.

Bluebird,

Just wondering how you're doing?

He hasn't contacted me and I'm just so hurt and now getting angry.

I believe he may have someone else or is just satisfying his needs by looking at porn.

Still very hard to keep from calling him. I'm really too old for all of this and the stress is making me sick.

Thanks for asking. I look like a wreck too. Losing weight.

I've been reading the Cloud and Townsend book "Boundaries in Marriage" as well as HNHN. I can now see the ways in which my H's judgementalisn has caused me a lot of anxiety. " When you live with judge you are always on trial." Quote from C&T.

Congratulations for not contacting him. Hang in there and keep moving forward in your life. Though it's personally painful, it doesn't matter if this user is using someone else and doesn't acknowledge your value. His opinion means nothing. Have you thought about whether you'd be emotionally able to file for divorce or how long you'll wait before doing so?

Unfortunately, my natural tendency would be to wait a long time before taking action, hoping for change not likely to happen. I've been reading over some of the e-mails H sent me this time last year over the same issue and finally see them for what they are: cold attempts at manipulating me and blaming me for his lack of satisfaction. He obviously wasn't concerned I'd leave in reaction, just like he isn't concerned now. If I married someone with NPD traits, there really is no hope.

Hi BB,
This is a very painful time. Are you staying with your Mom and cousin? Try to block the images of your husband with others or porn. You are haunting yourself and adding to your anxiety.

Get out and hike in nature, garden, cook a nice meal, watch a funny movie and so on.

BB, I am so very proud of you, my friend. I see that you are starting to come out of the fog. Do you see this? Women who are in marriages where they are treated badly tend to be foggy because they are in the habit of justifying the bad situation in their minds. When they step away for awhile, they get glimmers of truth.

The truth is starting to break through. A bad marriage is like quitting smoking. At first you desperately miss the cigarettes but soon enough it becomes second nature and then one day you realize how wonderful you feel. That is where you are headed now.

And when your head clears you will be in a better position to make decisions about your marriage.

Thanks. I actually had a sick, anxious feeling reading those e-mails, and I suppose H knew what he was doing when he wrote them to me. Anyway, it will take time to sort through the good and bad of my H and what I need to do.

Like the other here, I am glad to see that you are breaking the cycle of co-dependence. The fact that your husband has stayed out of contact demonstrates that he does not want to be tied down. His perverse view of relationships and his maverick independence blatantly set off the danger signals.

Certainly, you will have to cycle through the stages of grief. You've mourned, and you are now in the anger state. It will last for awhile. Just respect the process and maintain the will power to stay out of contact.

Stay active, and take small steps forward.

God bless.

It is so amazing to me the difference just one week apart makes in these situations. I see it happen all the time. A spouse who is in an abusive/dysfunctional situation for years will undergo an awakening that starts as soon as one week.

They will start seeing how mistreated they were and they start feeling ANGRY. That is the beginning of an essential awakening that can either effect an effective reconciliation or divorce.
Both paths are preferable to staying in a horrible marriage.

Good job for staying in Plan B and not contacting him.

I would avoid reading any of his past emails/letters or anything from him.

Concentrate on you and your health. Are you able to get much exercising in?

You're what is important and you need to take care of you, my friend.

Nevertheless I'm still blaming myself. If I had just done what he'd asked...

Now I face a future alone. And at my age men are not available or have other issues (health). H was healthy fit and strong. Such a change since being with my sick former H for years.

This is very hard to handle mentally, no matter how badly he may have treated me, or the fact that he was selfish. I am alone and may be for the rest of my days.

If you had "done what he asked," you would have developed a serious sexual aversion that would make your marriage a living hell that would have been a slow, tortuous road to divorce. His plan was untenable. If he just does what you ask, he has a chance with you. You have told him you are willing to give him that chance.


You were facing much worse than a future alone. You were facing a future with a thoughtless, selfish man who cared nothing about your feelings and expected you to compete with 18 year old porn stars. Just imagine how "caring" he would be if you get sick in your old age and become disabled? If he cares nothing about you while you are fully capable, imagine how much less he would care if you were disabled??

I shudder to think!!


You don't have to be alone. There are lots of great guys out there.

What would he have done with you if you developed Alzheimers or had a debilitating stroke?

I'm not sure he could have stepped up to the plate to take care of me. I never got that feeling based on his behavior in the past when I've been sick. He would always brush off my questions to him about that as my being too negative.

I would marinate on that for awhile if I were you. I can't think of anything more horrific than being debilitated and being at the mercy of someone who does not care about me.

Bluebird,
I'll reiterate: if you did everything he wanted, he would have only increased his demands and still not be satisfied. There's no way you can do enough, right enough to change him from a freeloader to a buyer. And MelodyLane is right, for a while the anger about how you were treated is strong. Even then, no contact and you'll make it through one more step towards a life of happiness.

This is an e-mail he sent me last summer. He was upset because I went to visit my mom, who was recovering from cancer surgery. We agreed beforehand I would go, but a few days later I got this when he wouldn't respond to my attempts to get in touch:

"Perhaps you didn't understand, but these emails don't substitute for the fact you should be here, but as you explained, you have other priorities. So attend to them and don't send me this stuff."

Around here we cal that BS fog. Of course you made reasonable efforts in love to do what you could enthusiastically. He judged it as "not good enough," but that doesn't negate the efforts that you did make. Please think on this because it is his main weapon against you. If you would please just hold that statement up to the light and acknowledge that you did do these things that he asked you too do. The things that you were unenthusiastic about, you stopped doing, because to continue them would have created aversions and made reconciliation a harder road later.

I'm not doing well at all. Still NC from him. I have kind of lost it emotionally and family is worried as I can not stop crying. Will meds do any good? The thing is they won't change the fact that my marriage is likely over and/or H is cheating.

It's one thing to have this happen at 35, quite another at 62. No time for a do-over.

Anti-depression meds can indeed help you. No, they won't help your marriage, but they will help you to even out your emotions while you are feeling so sad. They don't change your personality or make you feel strange or fogged out. They just help your emotions to be more even.

Please try not to concern yourselves with "do-overs" and the like at this point. One thing at a time. I know you would rather be married than alone, but it's better to be alone than with someone who does not care about or for you. And you don't have to be alone and lonely. You can get involved with your community, with helping others, womens shelters, assistance leagues, the church, groups.

And, at any age, you never know what's around the bend anyway.

Yes, BB see you physician pronto. Get a complete physical. You likely need to get on an antidepressant and under a doctors care right now. Give him/her the whole truth about your situation. Get checked for STD's and so on.

I heard from him. This is all he wrote:

"What will you say to yourself in your later years about how you lost the man who loved you. Twice."

I guess he doesn't think that he's ever done anything to lose my love for him.

His heart is clearly still hardened against me.

Translation: I am starting to get nervous that my manipulations have not worked and she may mean what she said!!!!

"I will say that I would rather be alone than in an unhappy, miserable, incompatible marriage. If you become willing to end your porn use and work together to create a marriage where needs are met in a way that make us both happy, I would be willing to try. I want to meet your need for sex, but it has to be done in a way that makes me happy too. If I enjoy it then I will do it enthusiastically. I would be more enthusiastic if I felt emotionally attached to you and we always did it in a way that makes us both happy.

I would also like it if we went through the Marriage Builders program so we can create a compatible marriage.

Let me know. All my love, bb"

I wonder why I can't tell when I'm being played?

Thanks M. I'll send him the note.

Bluebird, forgive me as I am a fair bit younger than you, but I see a woman who feels as if she has low worth due to her age. My widowed grandfather met and married a wonderful woman when they were both in their late 80s. You know that you are deserving of love no matter when you were born, right?

Ditto to what alis said.

I know of lots of people who found a mate after 50. My mom is a red hatter and has several girlfriends who ended up remarried or in a relationship after being divorced or widowed. A friend of her just got married at 84!!! Chin up lady!!!

Also, have you considered joining a group like the Red Hat Society or a meetup group? It is a good way to meet people and do fun stuff.

BB,
He learned to play you like a violin. He's testing out your resolve. Stand firm. You know what you want and what you don't want. Glad you will send ML note from yourself.

Now get back to taking care of yourself. Shift your care and concerns to the wounded part of yourself. Not in a self pity way, but think about caring for 'her'---the part of yourself you have neglected because you have focused your precious time on attempting to please your husbands non-stop selfish and perverse needs. A black hole. Not possible along side his porn addiction.

That's who you are crying for. Her. Yourself. Not your husband. Protect her. OK?

Thanks everyone. The pain I feel has to do just as much with our past as our present. I have a box full of love letters, notes, pictures and songs he wrote for me in high school. We were everything to one another -- and then I decided to break up with him just before prom. Stupid thing is, I did it for no reason I can recall. I just think I wanted to see more people before considering marriage. But then I met and married my H (mistake) about a year later, and it was a long and mostly unhappy abusive marriage. I should have left but never did.

I always felt that if I'd married C instead I would have had children (he wanted them with me), and a happier life.

When we finally met again it was like the heavens had smiled at me finally. Now we're losing one another , and it seems even more tragic than the first time. And I can't understand his treatment of me, and why he wants to let go.

I will try to take care of me if I can.

Bluebird, you are in your own fantasy fog too. You are his third wife, it seems you ascribe such romantic ideals to what was a carefree teenager nearly a half-century ago while being unable to see the reality of what he is, and apparently always has been, as an adult man. You've asked him to stop using porn, not walk on mars. And yet, he refuses. He is not the fantasy you cling to.

Yes this is true. The reality is that he has walked out of two previous marriages and had had many failed relationships in between and before he met me. I know he has had casual sex with multiple partners, lived with another woman after his second marriage and that that woman trashed his place following their break-up. I believe the cause was cheating on his part.

I guess I really am grieving the destruction of the fantasy as much as the present day circumstances, perhaps even more. Before we married, he told me it would be different with me -- and in his words, he would "fix everything" I was sad about.

Do you see now that this was an illusion? He has made you terribly unhappy.

He has made me feel unsafe - which is worse for me. A year ago we had the same issue come up -- he told me then that we were going nowhere and asked for a two month separation. I went to my
mother's. Then he came back with promises that things would be much better (after I had to promise to work on SF).

But he never cut back on his IB (long walks, spending time alone, watching TV shows I didn't enjoy). And obviously as far as he is concerned the SF did not improve and probably got worse as I felt less enthusiasm. I couldn't help it even though I knew he was becoming resentful. I think I was starting to get depressed.

Have you thought about hiring a PI to see what he is doing?

No -- my emotional state it too fragile to have that kind of info. I would really rather not know. The mental picture would play and replay and only cause more pain.

I suspect he is looking at porn and engaging in activities of some sort owing to his drive for SF. He could never be celibate for a long period.

You have a nostalgic memory of the nice stuff about your past with your husband. Notice how you have now filtered out the negative emotions from that period of time?

The real tragedy is how you are allowing yourself to treat yourself. Focus on taking really good care of yourself. Start by seeing a physician.

I predict you haven't heard the last of your husbands manipulative banter.

Did you send ML message?

I'll send it at some point today. Not feeling like it will really matter.

thanks.

I would check in with a doctor and see about an antidepressant so you don't feel so raw and vulnerable to reality.

Right now your own imagination and nostalgic memories are your means of protecting yourself and working against you.

You do need to understand your husbands goings on so you can make an informed decision about your own future.

Start out by getting to a doctor for a check up.

Have you responded with anything?

You have a small chance that it may make a difference. Can you please send it?

Where would he go on these long walks? For how long? And what would he do when he spent alone time? Where would he go?

He used to be a marathon runner before we reconnected and has always been a fitness fanatic. He's been doing this stuff since his second marriage - so almost 30 years. He changed to walking about two years ago. I know his routes and at times saw him when I was out running errands. He never took his phone with him, which used to worry me in case he had a fall etc. I don't think he was seeing anybody during his walking time - he is simply addicted to the fitness regime. After his walk he would come back and look at the computer for an hour or play word games. I was always in the vicinity and at times would look over his shoulder and nothing was ever amiss. He never left the house during his alone time. It was just that I found that I spent from about 600 am when we both woke up until about 2:00 on my own with little conversation from him. I wasn't used to that as I came from a family where everyone talked. We're both retired so there should have been more talking I would think.

When we watched TV it had to be pretty much what he wanted to see or he would leave the room. He had no interest at all in my shows, and didn't even try to fake interest for my sake. At dinner he never talked either, which I found strange. He warned me about this before we married but I never imagined he would be as silent as he is. It was disconcerting to say the least.

I just gave up and watched whatever he wanted in the end, and also gave up on trying to engage him in dinner conversation.

He has no close friends and had zero interest in my family or visiting with them. He would visibly recoil at having to be in their presence, even though he knew my mom from way back.

In a way it was hurtful to me, and yet just his own personality so what could I do?

Did he talk to you at dinner when you were dating?

Yes - he was extremely charming and romantic. I guess he was faking it to get me to fall in love with him again. Obviously the silent persona would not have worked.

He told me once he had two personalities - the one he had to use at work and the one which was silent and didn't really like people much. He also told me that if he were ever single again he's have no trouble being Mr Charming to get "chicks."

Which is probably what he's doing now.

Husband: IB + porn = bad marriage material.

BB: Fantasy about past + going along to get along = poor coping strategy to deal with the bad marriage material.

The key ingredients are not there right now. You have to have quality ingredients for a healthy and happy marriage.

You need to get yourself healthy and even though your husband appears a health nut, he needs to do the same and give up IB and porn.

You are helpless to change your husband. It up to him. You could influence him by how you take care of yourself. Especially laying out for him and standing firm in your expectations for the marriage environment.

That's why I feel our UA time was not really UA time. If you have to watch TV in pretty much silence, and then when you go to bed you can't talk either "because the bed is only for SF or sleeping", when do you ever have the opportunity for intimate conversation, which I craved and needed in order to want to provide SF?

Unfortunately, his behavior can't sustain a marriage. What you describe isn't a marriage, it is a parallel life. No wonder you felt like you were just being kept around to service him sexually. I can understand why he has lost so many marriages. I seriously wonder if he isn't a sex addict and this consumes his life to the exclusion of all relationships. I would want to know where he goes on these "walks" and what he does when he is alone on the computer. I bet there is a lot you don't know about him.

It is not UA time at all. Not even close. Just being with someone and never meeting their needs is not UA time and will not sustain a marriage.

grace I didn't see your post before writing the above, but you are correct. He isn't marriage material.

One other thing that always bothered me: he has a son by his first marriage. This son got lost to him in a way after the divorce when xw took him to another city. He saw this son until about age 20 when son disappeared. Since then my H has written him off as dead and never talks or thinks about him. Even his kids by second marriage ask why their dd never tries to find his firstborn son. It would be easy with today's technology.

I found it chilling that he could be so blas� about it all. Like the fb son never existed or didn't matter at all.

He could have grandchildren he doesn't even know.

Your husband reminds me so much of my H when we first married 14 years ago. My H also was very deep into porn and didn't like people much. He hated being around any of my family members. The porn [which I thought was harmless at the time] sort of shut down his emotions for others, including me. I used to say "do you even like me?" I didn't feel like he liked me. He didn't like to talk to me and only seemed to want me around for sex.

I started spying on him and discovered he was having an internet affair with an old gf up in Indiana. That explosion is what led us to where we are today. I kicked him out and was preparing to contact an attorney when he asked me to give him a chance. We went to "counseling" and the counselor introduced us to Marriage Builders. And here we are today. No porn and very happily married.

BB,
You likely 'forgot' what negative occurrence or trauma occurred that set you off and caused you to break up with him in your past relationship with him.

It does not matter anymore, but I'm just saying he might have manifested 'something' that scared you off even back then and you have blocked it out to cope and hope now.

Did you see this?

Can you hire a PI? I think you need to find out about your H's SSL(secret second life). Or the very least put spyware on his devices.

You need to know what he's doing or how will you know what plan to use?

After I sent him the note per Melody's suggestion he unfriended me on FB - or rather he took his page down. I was completely shocked and asked him why - he said he wanted to change his page to make himself more public (WTH). I had a meltdown right then and there. I asked if we were every going to speak again and he said he didn't know. He wouldn't take my calls either and told me he doesn't want to speak to me for awhile and "can't help me with my problems anymore."

I guess it's over.

I'm assuming there's an A going on which is why he changed his FB page and unfriended me. I really don't need to know anymore about his dalliances at this point. I need to rest from all this before I have a stroke.

Bluebird: Your WH is a very cruel man!! I can't believe he unfriended you on FB!!

Yes he lacks compassion. That is a very big red flag to me.

Bluebird:

I know you are very upset with discovering just what kind of a man you married. That must be so traumatic, after carrying a torch for him for so many years.

The silver lining is that you are learning this NOW, not in 20 years time. Please consider the blessing that this is!

For one thing, you are freed of carrying that torch forever. You are freed of always wondering what might have been, had you not broken up those many years ago.

You are freed to discover your own interests, explore your world. Your future can be ANYTHING you choose! (Well, okay, you probably won't have a career as an Olympic gymnast... but there is not much else you cannot do at this stage in your life.) The entire world awaits you.

Open your mind to what CAN be, not the loss of your fantasy.

This man DOES NOT DESERVE YOU.

All I can do is go totally dark on him for my own mental health and worry about divorce down the road.

thanks cat for your caring response.

this is hard time.

He acts like a psychopath/sociopath to me. Sorry BB.

Have you set an appointment to see a doctor? Started to exercise?

You talked about getting a dog. How's that going?

Bluebird, I am sorry that he has hurt you so, but I have to agree to catwhit: it is better to find out now than in 20 years. He is a very uncaring man who cares nothing about your feelings and cares nothing about creating a happy marriage with you. I have to wonder if you weren't just part of some sexual fantasy of his?

Is he into S&M?

He talked about submissiveness with me with respect to SF but I never went there with him. Maybe that's part of his porn stuff.

I've decided to go dark on him for a couple of months and then file for divorce if he doesn't come around.

I no longer have access to his computer or phone so can't spy etc and really, no longer want to know.

I guess that's it for now. I really truly appreciate everyone's support and advice. Unfortunately, I met and married someone who was not what he appeared to be. It happens. I'll be staying where I am under a drs care until I can get stronger and feel human again.

Thank you again for your kindness. If anything new happens, I'll update on this same thread.

God Bless.

Thanks so much for taking the time everyone. The fact that he could be a sociopath is truly frightening. I'm really in a very bad place right now but as I said will update on this thread if some miracle happens, which I doubt.

I will be getting a dog though, which he never wanted.

If I ever get married again, I'll make sure the person reads HNHN with me before anything else!

BB, I think that is a great idea and I want you to know we will be here for you. I would strongly suggest that you do not contact him, but rather let him come after you. Let him be the pursuer. And if he does that while agreeing to your conditions, you would have something to consider. Otherwise, there is nothing here to save other than a miserable existence. I am so sorry.

Please check in as often as possible and let us support you. There is no reason you have to leave. We will be here for you.

Thanks Melody. I may well take you up on that offer. Certainly I'll be reading other threads to better inform myself.

cheers

bb

awesome


Actually it is even easier than that. Very early in the process you can start to use the Policy of Joint Agreement. Say, at date 2 or thereabouts. You can negotiate the time or place where you meet, keep it simple and small. No need to explain, just start negotiating. One of three things will happen;

1. He will get the idea and be enthusiastic (great)

2. He will pretend to get the idea but, because he was not open and honest about his wishes, it will not work out well for him so he will not be enthusiastic (oops)

3. He will not see the point at all because getting his own way by manipulating is all he knows (run)

POJA allows you to smoke out the problems very early on. You now have your very own built in dishonest or sociopathic personality type detector.

A lot has happened for you in a short while. I'm glad to hear you are going to see a doctor and your still planning to get yourself a dog.

A routine of walking your dog can really be great. And walking can relieve bouts of anxiety w/or without a dog. I think the gentle bilateral stimulation is great for calming the mind. And just taking in the natural world without any other purpose but to help you feel better really works.

An mental exercise I was given along my journey that helped my anxiety and helped me connect to my own internal wisdom:

Its a journal exercise.

Take a piece of paper. With your right hand or dominant writing hand ask yourself, "how can I help you?"

Then with your left hand or non-dominant hand, answer the question.

It is very surprising, even when feeling very anxious, the wise counsel I received from myself.

This is very empowering. When you have been through the trauma of dealing with a disastrous relationship, you lose confidence in yourself in how to protect yourself. Yes, applying MB will help.

Give it a try!

Bluebird,
I'm sorry that you are going through this heartbreak. But it is good that your husband showed his cards right away. At least you are not being yo-yo'd back in forth as some manipulative spouses do.

You were never going to fulfill his perverse addiction to sex or overcome his independent behavior. I am puzzled as to why he even married for a third time, when he seems much more content adding notches to his bedpost and carrying on as a perpetual bachelor.

Time to go a new direction. At 61 you still can enjoy the fullness of life. Don't let your first two marriages become markers of the future. They are not. Put it in your mind that your husbands failed the marriage, not you. In the meantime, make a good life for yourself. Become part of a community, keep yourself busy in activities, hobbies, and service.

Chime in here for support.

God bless.

Thanks everyone.

He actually made up a new FB page and blocked me, and has gone NC and does not want to hear from me so I guess it's truly over.
I know this because I made another FB acct and found him using a different e-mail address. It's sad he's behaving like a teenager and doing everything he can to inflict further pain.

I still find it very hard to believe as I remain very much in love with him. Stupid me.

bb

So sorry BB. Please block all avenues that you may be tempted to "look in on him". This will only extend your pain out and make your personal recovery tougher.

What are you plans for Easter?

I'll be having dinner with my Mom and brother. I bought tickets for a concert in May and have plans with a friend to perhaps volunteer at a charity golf tourney in June.

Also still have the rescue site trying to find a dog for me.

So I guess that's something.

That sounds wonderful BB. One step and one day at a time.

Stay the path, my friend.

Sounds good BB. Happy Easter!

I had a very bad day one day and broke down and e-mailed him.

I didn't get a good response.

He said he didn't know when we would speak again and asked me not to call him for awhile.

In the meantime I've been reading about personality disorders and he sounds more and more like someone who may have NPD or at least is controlling.

How do I get over being in love with him and also this horrible fear of living out my life alone? I've lined up activities and and am trying to be social but nothing feels good. ADs are not making any difference right now. I try to focus on some of his hurtful behaviours - like telling me "F-you" on New Year's Day (probably something I said in innocence but it doesn't help.

My mom says I still have lots to live for but I feel like I've lost my right arm.

Thanks for letting me vent.

ADs usually take a couple of weeks to start helping. If they don't start working, see your doctor again. It sometimes takes a couple of tries to get the meds right. Doctors will understandably start out with the most mild first. They often have fewer side effects but they can be less effective for some.

Exercise will also help lift your spirits a bit. Make sure you are eating healthy.

I'm sorry you broke your Plan B and had such an ill effect. Try and keep his cruel response to you in mind next time you have such a strong urge to break Plan B. Call someone else instead. Write here.

You do have lots to live for. I know plenty of middle-aged women who are single and very satisfied with their lives. They have an active and full social life with plenty of female friends. You truly are better off on your own than with a man who doesn't care about or for you.

Bb, have you ever smoked? Ending a bad relationship is very much like quitting smoking. At first you feel like you are going to die but as each day goes by, you develop new, healthy habits to fill your day. At first, this feels awkward, but before you know it, this feels natural to you. As time goes on your fear will subside as you create a rich, full life for yourself.

You can have a rich, full life as a single woman if you will take yourself there.

Also, every time you break down and contact him you will feel devastated. Please resist that temptation. Your success in plan b depends on your staying completely dark, my friend.

Thanks Longway and Melody.

Right now I feel I will never recover. Losing an H is one thing, but losing your lost love from high school seems like so much worse. It's almost like H was imprinted on my heart from the time I was 16 and now he's gone forever.

Worse than death because he's still out there and God knows what or with whom he's doing things.

I just can't take it all in.

I'll keep trying to stay strong.

This person you are missing is not real person. You have learned this is true by enduring much pain, and sticking with a dark Plan B will help protect you from more unnecessary pain. Indulging in a fantasy about the lost love you thought you had found but never really had will not serve to help you one bit. Please stay dark and let yourself heal.

Hi BB,

Well, pick yourself up and know how awful the contact helped you feel.

What about a recovery group for yourself?

Write out positive affirmations and place around you to help you counter the negative things you are saying about yourself to yourself. We can be our own worst enemies.

Print this thread and the many positive things posters are saying to you as well as the warnings ---to remind yourself.

**edit**

Moderators note: do not disrupt the threads of those seeking help. If you have questions about the program, either read the material or start your own thread asking for help. Thank you

This is by far the most painful thing I've ever been through. Worse than first marriage with abusive H who then got sick.

I can't do this.

Ugh.

You don't know me but I have been reading your thread. I am enrolled in the online program.

I just wanted to send you a hug

Doubt your doubts. You Can do this!

Your grieving the loss of the dream more than the man.

You must fill your life with something else and other thoughts to help you right now.

You can and will do this!

Yes, you can, my friend. It is hard to believe, but in a few weeks you will feel better than you have in a very long time. You can't see the end now, but we can. Just stay completely dark and don't contact him. If you will do that, you will feel better and better every day.

Thanks Melody, but that's so hard to believe.

Every day I wake up with this huge boulder of pain in my gut, knowing he has discarded me so casually. He's blocked me on FB and other sites we used to use and I'm actually afraid to call him (even if I wasn't trying to go dark). I know he would just be very cruel in his response, very cold.

Why couldn't he just be happy with me as I am? I'm not cruel, I never cheated, I helped him through three health crises (including a very serious A-fib incident). I was kind to his kids and tried so hard to fit in. None of it mattered in the end.

He has cast me away, just as he did previous wives and gfs. I'm just another person on his list of conquests. Don't even know if he ever really loved me or if I was just some fantasy who couldn't live up to his image.

I'm now thinking he has some form of NPD. If true they never change and can't really love, which means I invested these later years of my life with him for nothing, and now have no future.

I really can't do alone and can see myself old and neglected.

It's all too much. Sorry for venting. I know he'll go on to have others, but the thought of even talking to another man makes we want to faint.

Just so sorry I'm not doing very well.

You were both engaged in fantasies to some degree. Your fantasy was that he was a lost love from the past - someone who was meant for you from the beginning. His fantasy is that he is still 20 years old, and a privilege to all women who are graced by his extraordinary sexual prowess. His fantasy is about himself, not you. You did not fail at anything. I've said it before and I will keep repeating myself until you believe it - he is the one with the problem, not you. You are normal.

But you are better off on your own than with a man who will not care for you or about you. You were in love with an illusion.

You don't have to be alone, or "old and neglected." I know plenty of very nice older ladies in our church and community who have made wonderful social lives for themselves. They reach out to others to help, for company, for prayer, for meals. They share themselves and seem to be very happy.

Find other people doing fun and/or helpful things in your community. Reach out to be a friend to others. It will help you now and in your future.

Also, if your ADs have not started helping you after a couple of weeks, please call your doctor and see if you can get either another prescription or a higher dose of the same. Most doctors will start out very conservatively.

I used a very good anti-anxiety/AD called Lexapro and started out with a tiny tiny dose. Had to increase it little by little. It started helping me feel better after a couple of weeks. Is your doctor monitoring you? My doctor was a psychiatrist that I had to see on a weekly basis until I started doing better. And, guess what? Once I solved those problems and changed my life style, I don't have to be on those meds anymore.

Just ruminating and wondering about the SF issue in our relationship.

The last time we talked the only thing he could think of to discuss was SF. He accused me of being half-hearted and not initiating enough etc - even though I always made sure to ask if he needed SF every week (more than once). Mr Eureka says the problem lies with him but also is it my fault because I did not try hard enough to be more what he wanted and expected? If I had given him more frequent SF (every other day?) and different kinds would he have been happy?

Underneath it all I was hurt that he would use SF as a means to hurt me - make me feel inadequate etc. In a loving marriage shouldn't the spouses be happy just to have one another, and have SF? Does it always have to be like in the porn movies? I see so many articles about having to spice it up in the bedroom. What does DR. Harley say about this?

Also H was not providing me with UA time and when we were together there was hardly any conversation as he was either concentrating on a movie or playing computer games. I guess I was supposed to jump him during those times but gosh a woman needs some romancing and intimate conversation.

To this day he does not understand this.

SF between a man and his wife who are in love with each other makes them both feel great. The one who has the highest need for sex has his/her need met in the way that makes the one with the lower need happy.

Most women have a lower sex drive than their husband, simply due to the lower levels of testosterone. It's simply unrealistic to demand that you initiate SF when your needs are lower in general. I would hate it if my H demanded that I initiate. Sometimes the spouse with the lower need will initiate, but it's not going to be because of a demand. The demand actually makes it LESS likely to occur.

SF should always be done so that both spouses are happy, not just one spouse. SF is not about porn sex at all. My H has a higher need for sex, but he makes it all about me. He never asks me for sex in a way that isn't truly "making love." So we never have "porn sex," because that isn't really making love.

You don't have the same objective view, Bluebird, as the posters on your thread. We can see that the problem your H had was caused by him and his expectations. His expectations were predictably unrealistic because he watches porn.

Please please stop ruminating on your H and how you were somehow the cause of the problems with SF in your marriage. You were not the cause of the problem. Plan B is about NOT thinking or talking about the wayward or abusive spouse. Please find some activities that will help you.

HI BB,

I've been taking a break from the forums for a while but I wanted to check in on you. I'm now caught up (88 new posts!) and I just wanted to give you a big hug and tell you how proud I am of your persistence in demanding your deserts and not settling.

One thing I wanted to forewarn you about was this:


It's far from over, I'm afraid and not in a good way. He is very well practised in playing cat and mouse with you and has used separation before toplay this game. He waits until you are at your darkest point (and we all reach that point when grieving a relationship) and he returns like the prize pig at the village far, arms outstretched saying "You can have all this back! As long as you submit to soul-destroying SF".

That's what's next, I'd guess. You've also encouraged him a bit in his cat-and-mouse plan by contacting him out of fear. When he smells fear from you, it makes hiscat and mouse plan feel very rewarding. It's nothing that can't be solved by getting back on the Plan B pony, though.

I don't think he has gone 'NC' (only you can do that) I think he has gone into a temporary sulky tantrum. Once he can return from at any time with more emotional manipulation.

You have two choices. Stay on the path you are on remaining available for him to contact you, but HOLD YOUR NERVE. Do not initiate contact, or respond to jabs about 'losing the man who loved you' (bleugh) without getting advice here first. Remember that all emotionally-driven contact coming from you is a painful set back.

You could also choose a dark Plan B, using an IM, where they can take over, relieving you of this job. This might be needed if you are constantly waiting for the phone to ring or checking the internet or email etc. Or if you feel unable to resist contact him when he pulls a tantrum or gives you a jab.

Can you hold your nerve and concentrate on having a fun life where you aren't judged, for the time being?

You've already started to see more truth away from him and I think you can do a really good Plan B.

Thanks for checking back Indie. I've had a rough time -- a lot of crying, depression still very bad despite meds and feeling very alone and frightened about the future. I did not want my later years to end this way - alone but then right now my thinking is very dark and I'm still ruminating way too much.

I have begun to realize that he is probably Narcissist or has some kind of personality disorder which is not really fixable. Some of his behaviours over the course of the marriage:


Never said he was sorry when he hurt my feelings

Said F-U to me on New Years day this year for some silly reason

Would rear up in bed and glare at me if I coughed or made noise for a few seconds

Hypersensitive to any perceived criticism

Lacked empathy when I was sick

Would leave me alone for hours on end while he engaged in his fitness regime (basically no contact from early am until mid afternoon)

Would only sit with me if we watched his shows (would leave the room for anything I was interested in)

Couldn't stand to be around my family (they are good people!)

Often called me "whacky" or other names for having opinions he didn't like.

Used loud sighs and rolled eyes to express displeasure at me.

Gave me the silent treatment when he was upset for something I "did".


Somehow this seems abusive and is probably why I began to feel depressed and lonely just before he left. He could also be affectionate and kind, which only leaves me feeling more confused as to who the man I married really is.

This time though, I don't think he'll come back unless I go to him on bended knee. I just have a feeling he's done and has probably been unfaithful as his need for SF is so strong. That I don't think I could ever get my head around.

Yes I am constantly checking e-mail but I think anything I send him goes to spam and he's blocked me on FB and Skype. He didn't do this the last time there was a separation.

So maybe it's best if it is over, as I don't think I want to live in fear that at any time he could decide I wasn't making him happy and throw me out, or abandon me if I were to get chronically ill. Plus there's the whole porn issue.

But sad to say I would give anything to hear from him -- but I will not make contact.

thanks for the support and hugs.

BB

All this makes what you are now doing a really great win-win strategy.

If he has a personality disorder and cannot feel normal emotions then best to find that out now while you are still young enough to build a life for yourself. Imagine realising you were married to a monster after you fell ill.

If he is a normal person with normal feelings but has buried them, he will miss you. At some point that will lead him to an understanding that he needs to do work to build a life with you that will give you both happiness.

BB, thanks so much for checking in. I was thinking about you this weekend and was starting to get worried. People who are depressed tend to not see solutions so it is no surprise you feel this way.

I this quite a bit differently. If you get divorced, you will have an opportunity to meet a man who loves and cares for you. You did not have that opportunity while married to this man. This man does not care for you and I cant help but think it would be a terrible to spend your last years dependent on a man who is so uncaring.

BB,

Mostly here to say hi and keep encouraging you to not be in contact with your husband and continue to find enjoyable activities to distract yourself during this difficult time.

You are very vulnerable now and I too hope you keep coming here b4 you attempt to contact your husband. He's likely operating based on his addictive exposure to porn much like an alcoholic or drug addict 'think' when using their method of choice. This can appear to be a personality disorder.

Have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome? or PTSD? You maybe affected this way which makes it hard to detach and thus continue to question your own sensibilities along the way.

Try to fill the vacuum left with good stuff and people whom show you with their actions they love and care about you and don't need you to do things for them that hurt you.

Looking for emails and waiting for a call are traumatic for you right now. You can grieve--- but choose to not exist miserably, OK?

Thanks again everyone for being so kind. I truly appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I feel like I'm hanging by a thread right now but will try to get better at least for my poor Mom's sake. She's 88 and worried sick about me and I feel that's so unfair to her so I really have to snap out of it as she's depending on me along with my brother.

That's another thing H couldn't wrap his head around, but then his own mother was cruel and neglectful to H, which is where all his issues stem from imho. It's really very sad as he was a very cute and smart child who was not given any real affection and had to learn to fend for himself.

That doesn't give him a pass to be mean to me but in some way I know why it's happening and why he's been through so many relationships.

Graceful I have PTSD from my first marriage, which was verbally and physically abusive. I hadn't even really recovered from all that when I met H#2.