Marriage Builders
Posted By: Glorya Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 09:56 PM
This is my first post. I have been reading MB for over a year now, watched the videos and have His Needs Her Needs though I have not read all of the book yet. I looked through the forums to see if this topic was there and didn't find anything, I apologize if it is a duplicate type of message.

I have been with my husband almost 5 years, married almost 2. We are the product of my affaire from my first husband. We both feel very bad about the affair from my first marriage and I divorced 1st husband before my current husband and I did anything in the first marriage, but it still leaves a scar. I drank a lot those first years and my husband told me to stop drinking so much or we were over. I worked very hard at it, and it's taken 2 years but I quit drinking this past year.

In the mean time, he is very immature and insensitive, if I bring up how I feel or my emotional needs not being met he says it's my problem being too needy. I spent these past years in therapy and have grown a lot as a person but I think he feels since I was in therapy he can blame everything on me being crazy. A lot of this is because I drank away my needs before and now that I am recovered I need for us to work on them.

We were holding together OK at first, but he is depressed and fatigued, so when he started this new job of 7 months now, we get no time together. We agreed before he took the job (I am 1st shift he is 2nd) that we would have to work hard to keep connected since our time would be limited, but he makes no time fore me now. I keep telling him how unhappy I am that he is not making time fore me or making our marriage a priority. He keeps blaming his job and being tired and won't try to help the situation.

He has always had porn, ogling other girls, and recently Facebook lurking ex-girlfiends. He stopped the porn when I asked him to, and checking out other girls in front of me and now this FB problem, but he is so immature and refuses to take ownership of actions or fails to see how his actions really do hurt me. He keeps saying I am too sensitive. He hasn't really cheated but I feel that he is not devoted. Should I even bother trying to fix this or should I make plans to call it quits in the near future? I am planing to give him a time limit to go to the doctor for his health issues then see if we can work on marriage when he feels better, but I wonder is it worth it?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 10:10 PM
Hi Glorya, welcome to Marriage Builders. Can you clarify what you meant when you said your relationship was a product of an affair? Your relationship began as an affair? Was he married too?
Posted By: Glorya Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 10:48 PM
Hi MelodyLane, my current husband and I had an affair with each other when we met, I was married at the time to my now ex, he was not married.
Posted By: Glorya Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 10:52 PM
To simplify my question, I guess it's this; if my now husband does not really want to work on the program with me, and does not value me much (though he says he does), is it worth trying to do anyway or if your spouse is not willing to work at the marriage with you, should just make plans to go through the steps of calling it quits?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Glorya
To simplify my question, I guess it's this; if my now husband does not really want to work on the program with me, and does not value me much (though he says he does), is it worth trying to do anyway or if your spouse is not willing to work at the marriage with you, should just make plans to go through the steps of calling it quits?

Yes, you should follow the plan in When to Call it Quits. I will just tell you that relationships that begin as affairs, called "affiarages," have a very low chance of success. The traits that made them possible, thoughtlessness, deceit and selfishness, eventually poison the relationship. They tend to be freeloaders and will only do what comes naturally, which leads to the eventual demise of the affair. You said:

Quote
if I bring up how I feel or my emotional needs not being met he says it's my problem being too needy

His reaction fits the definition of a freeloader, which is defined here:

Quote
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 11:04 PM
Dr. Harley posted about affairages here:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.

I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.

I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.

There are so many obstacles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.

But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.

I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.

The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.

While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obstacles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
here
Posted By: Glorya Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/09/16 11:47 PM
Thank you MelodyLane, you have given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate the post from Dr. Harley about affairages. Seeing the definition of freeloader really does make his actions clear.

Since he is so stressed and fatigued and sick right now, I thought I would stick around and meet his emotional needs and POJA until he is well, then follow through with the steps of Calling It Quits once he is well enough. If he continues to not seek a doctors help for his illnesses, I will still follow the steps to call it quits anyway.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 12:18 AM
Glorya, another couple of red flags here are the opposite sex friendships and opposing work schedules, both of which are marriage killers. Opposite sex friendships are how ALL affairs begin and it doesn't seem he is aware of the risk, hence his opposite sex friendships. The other issue is your opposing work schedules. This is something you will want to address if you stay together.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 12:19 AM
p.s. Harley wrote a whole book about buyers, renters and freeloaders that you might find fascinating. It is called Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.
Posted By: DidntQuit Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 12:37 AM
Is your ex remarried?
Posted By: Glorya Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 02:07 AM
Thank you MelodyLane, I will check on that book, it does sound like good information.

DidntQuit I am not sure if he remarried, it was a very bad break up and we didn't stay in touch. Most of all because I didn't want to make my current husband unhappy so I had nothing to do with my ex, ironic at this moment though.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 06:51 AM
Do you have any children? With your ex or current H?
Posted By: TheRoad Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 12:08 PM
Time to end this affairriage.
Posted By: Glorya Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/10/16 12:35 PM
No, there have been no children.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Question on when to call it quits - 02/12/16 12:08 AM
I'm sorry, but the forum isn't equpped to help you.

Dr Harley himself has said in cases like yours (an affairage) - despite his BEST EFFORTS - he cannot get one or both parties to follow POJA and/or PORH - leading to disaster. He has said that sometimes the couple will not tell him they are in an affairage, nothing that he does helps and then down the line, they will admit the affairage and the it all makes sense for him (I am not trying to be hurtful, but I am trying to demonstrate how much of an uphill battle you have ahead of you.)

If he struggles helping couples in an affair marraige, the forum isn't going to be able to help. So I think if you were to have any hope at all it would be working with him directly.

Plus...folks trying to get help here (on a forum filled with hurting betrayed spouses) with an affairage never works out.
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