Hi,
First, thanks in advance for the help and guidance. I've been reading through threads here, I have read. His Needs, Her Needs, all of Dr. Harley's articles, and I've been listening to the show for a week, as well as relavent clips posted.

My H and I have been married 13 years, have two children ages 12 and 9. My H and I love each other, but we are having a hard time meeting each other's needs. I'm very frustrated by his IB and that he doesn't meet my ENs. The IB has been going on since we married, but now that he's not meeting my ENs, I'm resentful and sad.

He puts our oldest before me. Our son was very high needs, in many ways, still is, but it's getting much easier. For years, yes, years, I did not sleep. This was very hard on our marriage, especially since my H spent hours daily having fun and doing R activities without me during this time. I implemented a very specific schedule using advice from a Dr who worked with children like ours. It was very helpful in allowing me to cope, and we got through it. We had another child 3 years later, used the same schedule, plus added help with a consistent babysitter (I stay home w our boys). Things went great the second time around, H and I enjoyed many hours of conversation after I put children to bed, always early and on time to give us plenty of UA time, which we used well.

In the last 2 years, things have changed. H didn't want our oldest (or even both children) to have such a fixed schedule. He wanted it to be more flexible, with no set bedtimes, and open depending on what neighborhood kids and friends are doing. He didn't want our oldest on his specific diet recommended by his Dr (not life threatening, but helps immensely w his behavior, anxiety, and reactions). Oldest has been in therapy for anxiety and reactions this past year.

Oldest started playing for a highly competitive travel sports team 2 years ago. H wanted him to stay up as late as everyone else, until midnight usually, and eat whatever he wanted. This was not negotiable, so I didn't have a choice. Discussing it turned into arguments. So our way of handling was for me to stay home w youngest during biweekly or monthly tournaments while H and oldest went out of town. Last summer, there was a weeklong tournament so we joined. First night, H told me that my being there made everything hard. I had said we should think about getting dinner (it was 6pm). No team dinner was planned that night but he wanted to wait until other team families showed up to get consensus. That evening, he was irritable w me, I was hurt, and he was nicer to everyone else than he was to me. He smiled and reached out to touch the back of a single mom on the team. I know he considers her a "team" friend, and she is somewhat on her own at these tournaments, so I'm sure she finds my H a nice guy. He did this in front of me, not to hurt me, but it did. The next day he took son to the pool and when I came down they were sitting together. It hurt. I told him, he was shocked, but he understood and apologized, reassuring me he loves me and did not have any intent to be inappropriate.

The only UA time I get w H now is a weekly date night that isn't planned, often cancelled due to son's training schedule, which is often not planned in advance. Sometimes we only go biweekly or monthly. Every single time, I get dressed up, in a good mood, and every single time, H is silent, or critical of something I say, or irritable. It starts off well, then ends badly, I've asked him for more UA time. He works no more than 40 hours a week for himself, is great at his job, and is now coaching two teams for our son. He's gone every evening, we don't have dinner together, and all weekend is about training or games. But, it is the season. Other seasons, the TV is on for football games. I've asked him to pick games, not watch them every night, and he will, but only after it turns into an argument. We had friends over who are not into football, and he refused to turn it off when I asked.

He does R with a group at lunchtime every weekday. I've asked to do this together. When I have joined, he will not even be by me sometimes. Many other women in this sitch. They know me, and are my friends too, but he loves this time and I def feel like I'm imposing. I once showed up right as class was starting and he told me I ruined it for him by being late since I wasn't 10 min early. He didn't save my spot next to him.

He sends a loving text once a day. No calls. We have coffee in the mornings but he's often on his phone and I'm on my iPad. Evenings are all about sports, the kids, or his phone catching up on work emails since he leaves work early most days to coach practices. No affection, other than a kiss goodbye and sometimes hi in evenings. Very little conversation. He told me he doesn't always need to talk and feels resentful that I get upset w him when we sit in silence. Sex is down to once a month, maybe. I don't initiate since I'm not getting R, affection, attention, or conversation.

He's always been independent, but he used to R with me too, and be affectionate, and talk. A few years ago, sex was "light" for him at a few times a week. He told me he just doesn't need it that often anymore, that he's stressed with daily busyness and work and kids, and this time will pass. I've talked w him about everything here, multiple times over the last 2 years. He says this time is just a season, oldest will move on from his coaching, then he'll coach the youngest, then it will be over and we will have all the time in the world for each other. We have not been on a family vacation or a couples vacation in years. It's all about sports teams, which I consider obligations, and he considers "vacation." Without me.

We got into a big fight the other night and I told him to just be independent on his own and move out if that's what he wants. He was so sad and just asked me "you'd throw in the towel over something so minor?" No, I wouldn't, but I want him to take our M seriously and make me a priority. He says he loves me so much and always puts our family first, before everything. Many other families on the team travel separately so he doesn't see the problem. I apologized for saying that. I was very angry after he told me that "everything is your way." He forgave me but his solution is that we both need to "not get so stressed." He says he will try harder to talk w me and give me more time.

He still went to his lunchtime R, skipped once to meet a friend for lunch in town (a guy he does business w sometimes). He would never consider skipping this R for a hike or workout w me. He does talk to me more before bed, for 15 min. To him, that's meeting my needs. It's not enough. He's going out of town today to take son to tournament.

I know you all will highlight the single mom on team, but I can assure you, there is nothing going on other than they talk sometimes during the games. She's loud, talkative, and he's nice. That's truly it. But it still bothers me that he would be nicer to other women than to me. When I do join in R at his lunchtime spot, he will often look past me or interrupt what I'm saying to say hi to another woman he knows in the group class. It isn't that he is having EAs, it's like he just takes me for granted. He's just as nice to the dads on the team and spends more time w then than me in those situations.

We went on another weeklong tournament recently together as a family, and he spent the entire time with the other dads. But then, the other dads behaved the same way. And he kept both kids up till midnight every night, despite my asking to have them back so we could all go to bed in our hotel room together earlier.

Thoughts? Thank you.

You need to snoop.

I have access to his phone, pw, email. He's not doing anything inappropriate. He is taking me for granted. He's either in his office (works alone), at lunchtime R, or coaching our son's teams.

Your husband frequently spend nights away. Your marriage is high risk for an affair, especially when you consider that he isnt interested in sex with you.

Does he have a work phone, email,et? Do you have access to paystubs and bank records? Social media?

Also, his activities with other women are already inappropriate even if he hasnt had an affair yet. He was flirting with them and ignoring you. He is cutting you out of his group of friends.

I had access to all those things too. Doesn't mean a thing. If the people here say you need to snoop, trust them and snoop. The worst (or best) thing that can happen with snooping is that you discover he really isn't doing anything inappropriate and you gain peace of mind that an affair is not the issue.

Welcome to MB.

If you've "read all of Dr Harley's articles", then you've already read what to do. It's time to Call it quits. Follow the steps in that article.

1. "The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger. Invite your husband to complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with you that can be copied from the Questionnaires section of the Marriage Builders� website. After you have each described your most important emotional needs, the book ,"His Needs, Her Needs," will help you learn to meet those needs for each other. The accompanying workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love," provides worksheets that will help you both implement a plan to turn need -- fulfilling behavior into habits.

This first step may solve your problem."

If it doesn't solve your problem,

2. "the next step I recommend is very controversial, but when you compare it to the alternatives, it makes the most sense. It has two parts. I call one part plan A, and the other plan B. These two parts are to be executed sequentially -- plan A is first, followed by plan B."

In Plan A you meet his needs - but not unconditionally. The condition is that he will meet yours within a short period of time - about a month. If he does not do that, you separate without warning. You need to spend time panning your separation so that you are not left without anywhere to live, or without money, so that you are forced to return to your husband. You plan for Plan B while you execute Plan A.

"After a month had passed, when Ken returned home from work, there was a note on the kitchen table from Ellen. She explained that she loved him, and wanted their marriage to be successful. But because the relationship was one -- sided, with she doing all the giving, and he doing all the taking, she decided that it was time to do something about it. If he wanted to talk with her, she could be reached on her cell phone.

I had explained to Ellen how her husband would probably react at first: He would throw a fit. And that's precisely what happened. He told her that he was filing for divorce, and that she was now on her own. I also predicted what might happen next: After he had a chance to cool off, he'd want to have sex with her. That also happened right on schedule after two weeks had passed. My advice to her was that she should agree to it only after he saw a counselor with her that would take them through "His Needs, Her Needs." Since her husband hated me after he learned that I was the architect of this plan, I suggested that she find a local counselor who was familiar with my books and methods, which she did."

You have a perfect blueprint in that article. Don't settle for less than getting your needs met fully within your marriage, and getting them met NOW - not when the kids grow up.

Edited, just read news posts here, thanks so much.

Honey, THIS is how affairs start. Your husband has VERY POOR boundaries around women, and if he's not in an affair already, he's headed for one.

His behavior around other women is very inappropriate, and it sends up all kinds of red flags.

Do I understand correctly that he travels for your sons games without you?

Sugar Cane, thank you very much. I know what I need to do, and yes, I've read that article multiple times, but hearing you tell me it applies here was what I needed.

I will start w the first step this weekend to have ready when he comes home. We actually did this step a year ago, and he went along, but it didn't stick. His biggest ENs are admiration, DS, and SF, but not very often. Mine are financial support, affection, and conversation. I rates attractiveness as somewhat high, and he criticized me for that! Strange, since he is attractive, and very fit. I am too, but I know he loves me more because he finds me sweet (and I was sweeter in previous years than I am now, I know that's part of the problem).

Anyways, thanks for validating my feelings and seeing my perspective. I will go over the materials with him again in hopes that he will join and read the book/workbook w me.

Him touching her is something, not nothing. Having opposite sex friends is the way affairs start.

Yes, he does travel without me, prefers that I not go because he doesn't want to negotiate bedtimes/meals. We went on another weeklong tournament recently and he spent the entire time w the other dads. I spent a day w the other moms, then went to a more private pool at the resort in between games and he said the pool was too small, not enough action, so he left me there to go rejoin the other dads. This was our only family vacation since last summer, when he didn't spend any time w me there either.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this- I was feeling so needy, and I know H thinks my expectations are too high. Many other parents do tournaments separately. But I'm really hurt, and I know there is a reason.

Markos, I agree. Thanks for your perspective.

This is another huge red flag. He travels to games without you, with other moms he considers friends, and he prefers you to not come along.

Please read these links:

How do Affairs Begin?

Anatomy of Adultery

chapter 13 of His Needs, Her Needs

Yes, he does. But Prisca, he really doesn't want to negotiate w me, that's why he doesn't want me there. He wants to live independently within our marriage. He has been like this for years, but at least he used to make more of an effort to do things with me for my sake. He used to go surf for 3 hours a day, or go out with the guys a lot. He never had an affair.

Now it's all about team sports and his lunchtime R, where he gets admiration. He trains with a guy who's a big name surfer whom he admires. They are both surrounded by lots of women and both M. His wife goes too, like me. It's accepted in this community. I'm not making excuses, just trying to point out our challenges. I'm not ok with this- he sees me as being unreasonable since everyone else is ok with separating for tournaments (there are a lot of them), and doing R with other women friends.

He demands freedom, within the context of not breaking our M vows. If I try to impose on that, he will resent me. He already is.

He's having an affair now, Kat. He's not keeping vows. He's not loving you above all others and forsaking all others.

Taking trips with other women when you are married is an affair. If I had a son-in-law do that I'd help my daughter change the locks while he was gone. If one of my sons did that I'd help my daughter-in-law change the locks while he was gone.

Tell him that being married to you has certain requirements.

And this is the exact kind of lifestyle that leads to affairs. His attitude about marriage is the exact kind of attitude that leads to affairs. None of what you said has taken away the red flags. He is behaving like a man who is having an affair NOW.

So? How is that even remotely a concern compared to the pain he is causing you?

Did you read somewhere in Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts that you are supposed to avoid making your husband feel resentment, ever?

Markos, and Prisca, ok that is the issue. I do want to be loved above all others. You're both right and I appreciate your insight.

Markos, you'd advise your daughter to do that if her husband were taking their son to travel games without wanting her there? He's not going with other women to join them, but they are there too. How should I explain the hurtfulness in this situation? That our son shouldn't be doing travel sports if it doesn't accommodate out entire family? That's how I feel. But he will not be ok with that. In fact, we will be doing this again with our next child. Do I have the right to tell him I don't support this activity? Even if it means our son misses out? My H will never see my side of this. We are surrounded by other families doing this very thing.

You have every right. In fact, you have an obligation, because your son's whole world depends upon your marriage. If your marriage crumbles, then his world crumbles. His parents having a healthy, loving, romantic marriage is far more important than the experience of travelling for a game.

No, I didn't read that, but I did read in previous threads that I need to be flexible for my H, and eliminate LBs. H sees my need for consistent bedtimes for the kids and my concern with our son eating junk foods that worsen his behavior as being controlling. He sees my request that he R w me instead of this lunchtime group of women as a selfish demand.

When I've asked him to make more UA time for me he says I'm complaining.

And this is where I'm at. I truly thought it was me. I thought I'd come here and everyone would tell me to let go of the inflexibility, that I've pushed him away. That I need to be more fun for him to want to be around me more. That talking with other women over me isn't an EA because there are no texts with them, etc. That I'm the one here so I need to do the work, not him. And I'm hurting so much I don't want to do anything more until he stops this and puts me first.

Flexible doesn't mean put up with things that Dr. Harley says are always a bad idea for a marriage, like porn, heroin addiction, friendships with the opposite sex, or nights apart.

You don't really know his motivation. You cannot see inside his mind.

Regardless, it is marriage wrecking behavior whether he intends it to be or not.

You need to snoop. I'd show up to one of the games unannounced and just watch.


"I am no longer willing to live this way. I am no longer willing to spend nights apart."

This is what I needed to hear. Can't tell you how much I appreciate this, Prisca. And if my H completely disagrees? I've said this and he ignores it. I've asked him to not coach. He's now coaching two teams for our one son. Still move forward with ENQ, LBQ, and ask him to read book/do workbook? He will do it (to placate me) but he's overwhelmed with coaching/travel/work. What do I do in meantime?

In a healthy marriage, this could be negotiated.

It's not. Not even close.

You SHOULD be complaining! Complaining is a good thing!

But we're not telling you that, are we?
Your husband is abusing you in the worst way imaginable.

He is using the guise of good family guy to get some action.

No, you're not telling me that and I'm grateful to you all for the help in confirming that I'm not crazy. In my situation, would you still recommend starting with ENQ and LBQ (again)?

Or do we need to immediately schedule a counseling call with MB? My H needs to hear this from someone other than me.

Follow the plan that Sugarcane posted. (When to Call it Quits)

You can offer him the chance to build a marriage with you. But you cannot force him. If he's unwilling, you will need to go to Plan B to protect yourself.

Point taken, but at this time he was hanging with the other dads. He's not "getting action" from the other moms there. That one single mom brought her boyfriend on this trip and was busy hanging out w him, not even by the pools.

Ok this is what I will do. I feel better knowing there is a plan. Thank you again for all your help here, and your time.

I would let him know that you are no longer interested in overnight separation. I would let him know that you want to follow this program to the letter to have a romantic marriage. (The forms are just a small fraction of the program, so small it's almost not worth mentioning...) If he's jumps at the chance, GREAT!

But I doubt he will. He's enjoying his women.

What you really need to be doing is snooping behind the scenes. You need to find out what you're really up against. Who are these moms that he's so close to?

You can talk to Dr. Harley for free. Contact him at mbradio@marrigebuilders.com

He is enjoying the admiration he gets in this class- it's highly skilled and he's one of the best. The instructors use him for demos. They are all married and tell me often how amazing he is in class, how he should become an instructor. Of course this makes him feel great and I can't compete. I'm not anywhere near his level. As for the sports, he will not jump to have our son stop participating. He will do anything for our son and he believes this is absolutely the healthiest, right thing for him. He will continue to see me as an obstacle.

I'll email Dr. Harley now.

You need to get the book "Surviving an Affair and read it. It will be an eye opener.

This is not a marriage. If your marriage is to survive, he will not be able to participate in these activities anymore.

Let us know what Dr. Harley says.
If you don't hear back from him in a few days, let the moderators know. Sometimes emails to him get marked as spam, and the moderators will alert him that you are trying to contact him.

Hi Kat, you are getting great advice, but I wanted to comment on this. His "resentment" is not the biggest problem, YOURS IS. The type of resentment you have is the type that destroys marriages. The type he would have by abandoning his independent lifestyle is the type that ends the moment an alternative solution is found.

Can someone post Type A and Type B resentment for her? I am away from my laptop.

Resentment Type A and Type B

Ok I get that. I've read this before and it helps, but I'm starting to think that my resentment doesn't matter to him. Ouch. His definitely matters to me.

I'll get the Surviving an Affair book now. I just sent an email to Dr. Harley.

Also, QUIETLY snoop.

Show up at this weekends tournament un-announced.

If you can slip some spyware onto his phone or a Voice Activated Recorder in to his car, do.

Kat- i snooped and my husband wasn't having an affair - yet. But our marriage - and my H's lifestyle -had to under go drastic changes. We no longer associate with the people we knew before. Opposite sex friendships WILL kill your marriage if allowed to continue.

Yes, I understand apples. I know in my gut that he's not having an A. But I also know this is not the right path and we need to change course to move forward together.

Joyce emailed me back right away and is scheduling a day next week for Dr. Harley to call me and have me on the show. I need to know how to approach my H w this info. If I make any demands or get angry, he will not listen. He will minimize the issue and ask why when I tell him I'd like him to no longer go to R class. They just left for weekend tourney and this is the last away T for the season. Next one is local, but he will also balk at my requests to lunch together in between games or even consider me in the equation.

For the record, we (other child and me) were told we could "join if we want" but after last time it wasn't something I wanted to do (he would insist on letting both children stay up until midnight and eat junk food). I know he didn't want us (me) to come and other son has a local game that H wouldn't want him to miss.

Also should add that at any game we are at together, he has no interest in watching w me. He assists in coaching now but even when he's not during other son's game, he does not watch or stand near me. He talks to everyone else and walks around at different position points.

He just doesn't need the connection to me. At all. He says he loves me but is very independent. He doesn't talk to me about work, has always had his own group of guy friends from high school who do guys trips and guys' leagues. He was established before we met. I honestly think it's that he just doesn't need me, other than to provide DS and children. And previously sex, which now he doesn't need as much (he's 45). He's fine vacationing without me. He used to do guy trips a lot but even then, he'd also do trips w me. Now it's just the sports trips.

I can't tell you how many times people come here and say that, and how every time they are wrong.

You can't trust your gut on this. You'll only be able to rule out an affair if you snoop.

You need to snoop. Do not ask him. You have right to know what is happening in your own life.

Do you have access to all the accounts?

Start with the bank/credit cards, then cell phone bills, emails, etc.

Prisca is right. I would never have believed my husband had lied to me until I saw the evidence myself.

Ma'am, men don't stop wanting sex at 45. No matter how much their wives wish that were the case.

You honestly think? You are honestly trying to fool yourself, which is very, very dangerous.

I've looked through his phone. The only thing I saw that bothered me was he texted our son that he was playing at the blackjack table on their last tourney. So he gambled without telling me and in front of our son. This is the IB stuff I mean.

Nothing anywhere else but I'll look more.

Except when they are overwhelmed, which in his case may be true. He's running two teams, difficult son, ticked off wife, and he practices strenuous physical release daily.

But I admit I do not get men at all so I'll take your point.

But he's away from you overnight with other moms. THAT'S where you'd find his affair, not on his phone.

That doesn't describe the male sex drive at all.
Women think: "I'm overwhelmed, of course I don't want sex."
Men think: "I'm overwhelmed, but at least I got to have sex!"
A man's sex drive is not driven by his emotions. If he doesn't want sex, something else is going on. Either he has low testosterone, he's having an affair, or he's masturbating (probably to porn).

Start with finding out if it's an affair, because that's the most damaging possibility (as well as the most likely).

He's overwhelmed by all the women he's running around with, yes.

He's not overwhelmed by his reasonably upset wife. That's just gaslighting, a technique to make you think you are at fault when you aren't.

How did you not know about the gambling? Do you not share finances?

Also, he could be using an app which would not show up on the records.

You realize you are being treated like an unruly employee he can't fire, right? Like a nanny or housekeeper who is stepping out of line.

I agree, he sounds like a fit guy running around to meet chicks.

Ok, I will begin investigating. I know there is plenty of info here on how to do that.

Would a man who prioritized his children really do that with their son in tow? In a situation where all but one is married too? And that one who is single shares custody so she's not at every T. And why, when he has a loving wife at home who is begging him to spend time with her?

I hear that I could be way off base, but to me the issue in our M is that he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong with his IB. He thinks that because other men have female friends, including his mentor, I'm the one with the issue, not him. And, because other families "divide" for their children's travel sports and put their children first, I'm the one with the issue. Because other kids are fine eating fruit loops before playing back to back games in 115 degree weather, and drinking coke at 6pm and staying up until midnight every night, I'm the one with the issue.

Interesting take, and this hits the nail on the head. Yes, he is acting like that. I actually told him the other night that I'm more than the nanny, cook, cleaner, and errand-runner. He told me that he will make changes by giving me more time because he wants me to be happy and he wants to take great care of me. To him, the marriage is almost perfect. He said just a few minor tweaks, that I want more affection, conversation, romance than he needs and he will try to give that to me.

Why? Because he can. Your lifestyle is conducive to an affair, as are those who he is hanging around with.

Do you have access to the bank accounts?

We share finances and all account are in my name too. He owned our home before we were married and put me on the title to build my own credit (I'd recently graduated college when we married). But I don't check bank statements. He does the bill paying, my choice since I didn't want another chore and he has a quiet office to handle all of that, where I've had little ones underfoot, until recently (they are older now).

You need to look. You also need to compare the accounts to the paystubs and possibly the tax returns. You may find another phone account.

Yes I will read up on how to do that. I've already gotten so much insight here so I know your advice is important, even if just to rule out the possibility.

I see myself in the first link- like RJ, I'm with a H who isn't meeting my needs and would rather walk our dog than spend time w me. I am not at the point where I'm interested in someone else, but I do want my needs to be met. I have brought this to my H attention and he says he will try but without a plan in place, he's likely going to continue his IB.

How do I approach him w this plan without bombarding him with "please stop doing all the things you're spending your free time doing- travel ball and R class"?

Kat you absolutely have to tell him "I can't put up with this any more." You asked this before, and my wife told you to say: "I am no longer willing to live this way. I am no longer willing to spend nights apart."

Have you looked through his office?

Yes, she did and it was helpful but I'll also need to add that "you can't do your R class anymore." And I wanted to make sure that's how this should start, rather than trying to sell him on MB first and do questionnaires. But I see now that your wife is telling me how important this is, to clarify this first.

His office is not in our home. I needed our online banking info last week for something related to my small side biz and he as no prob giving me access instantly. I'll review there again, the first time I was just trying to handle an e-payment. But he's not behaving like there's anything to hide there.

No, you dont tell him what he can and can't do. You tell him what you can no longer accept - nights apart, opposite-sex friendships, and no time alone.

Have you ever seen his paystub?

Apples, yes to all of the above. I will tell him when he gets home on Sunday that I will no longer accept those 3 things. I never did accept them and the links Prisca sent are making me realize why those 3 things have hurt me so much and why they are damaging our M.

He will say no problem but then still go to his R class, and still talk to whomever is around at games, saying he doesn't see any of those women outside of class or have friendships w them (true not outside of class or games). He will say that I'm welcome to come to any tourneys but what about other son and his overlapping games, and logistics of bedtimes/food?

Yes I've seen his pay and just signed off on our tax documents last month.

Do I wait for his reaction before moving forward w MB concepts?

And really, thank you all for taking time to help me here. I already feel better knowing that I'm not being unreasonable and there are 3 concrete things that can change so I can feel better.

rememberSTAY CALM. If the conversation becomes heated or upsetting, take a break.

Also, you should consider having a PI check in on your husband this weekend. He is very likely in an affair.

Apples, really? Very likely? With our son and his team? I get that the way we are separated and his lifestyle it is a risk but "very likely" is shocking to me.

He is cutting you out; this is likely to make room for someone else. And yes, with the traveling group and your son around. How easy would it be for him to send your son off with one of the other kids and meet up with a woman?

You must definitively rule out the most devastating possibility. before you can effectively address minor issues.

For your sake, I hope he is not. But for a healthy young man of 45 to not want sex all of a sudden. Without anything else you have said, this would be a serious red flag.

Kat, don't whistle in the dark while Rome burns, okay? Quit trying to decide how likely it is, and just take care of what needs to be done.

I would encourage you to reread your thread and make a todo list.

Agreed, making list. Thanks.

Like apples said, I truly hope it doesn't turn out to be an affair, but, I can tell you reading your thread is like hearing my husband talk for the last two years.

Like your husband he would give me access to what I thought was everything. I had passwords, access to his phone, I paid our bills, I watched our money. He told me he was "stressed out" and that's why he wasn't interested in sex. Then it was "physical". He always had "nothing to hide"
"Nothing to hide" was a burner phone AND a whole other cell phone plan with the OW, it was giving her money, it was gaslighting, and gaslighting.

One thing I don't often see mentioned, which, if I had pursued at the time would have probably led me to discovery much sooner, is getting a credit report on your H. You can get the basic info for free at credit karma if you know some basic info. My H had an unexplained hard inquire from a phone provider, he told me that he tried to get a phone but was declined, which was a lie. If I had done the leg work then, I would have discovered his hidden phone and the affair years sooner. It might be a very good idea to look in to it in your case if he has been gambling and not tell you. You might want to do it for your credit as well to make sure there hasn't been anything taken in your name you are not aware of.

Thanks for sharing your story, FL. That does make me think even more.

I've made a list and will try to stay calm. Do you rec I wait until he returns or text him now that we need to talk tonight on the phone? Otherwise he will just text goodnight w pic of hotel and son and game.

To me, body language is important when having this type of conversation, so I would wait until he is home. Plus, that gives you some more time to snoop.

Wow FL I just read your story and I'm so sorry. Hope you're doing ok and find you're better off.

Thank you, Kat!

I said this to him over the phone last night. He immediately agreed about the no overnights, but asked how to handle when schedules conflict with other son's sports games. I suggested we talk about whether travel sports are right for our family, maybe they are not. He disagreed. Then he said that we don't go together for my sake, because I'm the one who has a hard time with late bedtimes and need to get my sleep. He said he's been doing it for my sake. I reminded him of the last two long trips we did do and how he told me my being there makes everything hard. I reminded him about reaching out and warmly touching and smiling at the mom in front of me, after expressing irritation with me when I said we should think about getting dinner. He agreed that I had a right to be upset but assured me that I have nothing to worry about, and we can find a way to all go together from now on.

He said he thought we were doing better, spending more time together. This week, we spent maybe 15 min having coffee together in the mornings (while on an iPhone) and maybe 15 min talking before I went to bed. And that was it. And to him he thought this was making an effort, for our M. He did his R class with his female friends. He went to lunch w a visiting friend (guy). He left work early most days and coached until after 8pm nearly every night. I told him this wasn't enough.

He got very quiet and upset about the no more R class. He said those women are not his friends, he doesn't see them outside of class, nor does he stay in touch. He loves the class, it's his release. He said he can work out at lunchtime on his break. He doesn't understand the issue. He told me I was crazy, that I was getting upset and he couldn't talk to me. Gas lighting, like you all predicted. That's why I wanted to do it over the phone.

I calmly replied that I'm fine, not worked up at all. I had written out what I needed to say, so I wouldn't get emotional. He said we can talk about it when he gets home, that I'm in a "mood" and pissed, and he gets that, but I have nothing to worry about if he goes to a class he loves and it happens to be mostly women.

If anyone can help me with the last point, I'd appreciate it. He did say that it can't be all his way, he knows that and he's not saying that. He just doesn't understand why it's a problem to workout in a class with mostly women, then leave to go back to work. He told me he rarely even talks to anyone in the class and when he does, it's to be polite.

I've been around town with him at our children's sports games and he's known women I didn't know by name, talked. He always introduces me, but it's still weird. But he doesn't see the issue. I know 100% if I went to a class to workout and it was mostly men, he'd have no problem with this. So how to get through?

It doesn't matter if he understands why it bothers you. He doesn't have to understand why it bothers you. The question is, SINCE it bothers you, will he stop?

I wouldn't waste anytime trying to explain why it bothers you. I would just state to him that you're no longer willing to live this way, and stand by that.

This is classic gaslighting. Notice how you're all of the sudden the problem.

Don't suggest. Tell. You're no longer willing to live this way.

I wouldn't waste any time talking about that. Just tell him you won't accept it.

Don't discuss right and wrong.

Don't have long drawn out discussions with him, either. That gives him time to weasel around and encourages him to think he'll be able to get you to back down.

Don't back down.

These kinds of back and forth discussions are murder. Don't have this kind of drama with him. Just tell him you won't accept this any more, like my wife suggested. Then start preparing for a separation if he doesn't agree.

It can't be "for your sake" if it's hurting you and your marriage. This is all FOR HIM. If he wanted to do something FOR YOU he would stop going, period.

I have 8 children and none of them need me to take them on overnight trips for any of their many pursuits.

Thanks Prisca and Markos. No more discussing it. This is very helpful.

So to clarify, we are still in this step right? Now I introduce MB concepts (again)? He didn't read the books the first time. I don't want to make the mistake of coming across like it's "my way or the highway," which he's already accused me of and his mother has accused me of in the past.

So yes, I will stand firm on the 3 things above I will no longer accept, but how to move forward on MB concepts? He agreed to move forward w me to have a romantic marriage, said he wants that too.


1. "The first step, as I mentioned earlier, should be to express your need clearly without demands, disrespect, or anger. Invite your husband to complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire with you that can be copied from the Questionnaires section of the Marriage Builders� website. After you have each described your most important emotional needs, the book ,"His Needs, Her Needs," will help you learn to meet those needs for each other. The accompanying workbook, "Five Steps to Romantic Love," provides worksheets that will help you both implement a plan to turn need -- fulfilling behavior into habits.

Have you seen this?
Please Explain Gaslighting

I did not see this until now, but I know the term, yes. The thread you linked to explained it much better than I've seen previously, so thanks.

I woke up to a flood in our kitchen and water gushing from the fridge. I had to wake the neighbors (and friends) to help pull fridge out and turn off water, and dry water off wood floors. I called my H at 6am and he and our son were still sleeping in their hotel room.

He called an hour later before checking my vm and left vm not knowing the situation, then texted back that I should pull out fridge and unplug, lay down some towels.

I was upset and tried to take calming breaths. Called him back and said that this was a bigger deal than lying down towels, and I had to call and ask for help because I needed a man here to help. I did not yell but I am not sure if this was an AO or not. He agreed and said he would do whatever needs to be done to handle, he will call our homeowners for floors and have fridge replaced if needed.

He then moved on to discussing our son's games for the day.

This is how it goes. He does his IB, he listens to me get upset, he talks about the weather.

The emotion you are experiencing is Resentment Type A. The fridge disaster felt like a bigger deal than it otherwise would have BECAUSE of this resentment.

If he doesn't start following the POJA with you NOW, it's only going to get worse. You are going to get to the point that you hate him so much you won't even consider fixing your marriage.

Invite him to join you in the program, yes. But don't accept crumbs. If he doesn't read the books or refuses to follow any part of the program, then you need to be ready to separate. Set the bar high -- if he wants to keep you and keep your marriage, he's going to need to make drastic changes.

And that's a GOOD thing. Marriages get better when wives refuse to accept crumbs and start expecting their husbands to be integrated with them.

What have you done as far as snooping?

Do not try to drag him through the program. Invite him, but it's his choice whether he follows it or not. If he is not going to willingly follow through on what he needs to change, then there isn't much hope for your marriage recovering and you will need to separate.

Sometimes it takes a separation to get a husband to realize you are serious. That is what it took for markos.

Mine sure did!

I definitely understand this, and everything you've said above. I'm finding it very difficult to want to be nice to him right now. It's a relief to me that he is not here this weekend.

Still snooping, figuring out how to use the remote spyware, but since his device is likely not backed to iCloud, I need the device first before setting up. I've done the online account reviews and nothing suspicious. Reviewed cc statements, nothing. He's not protective of his device when he's home. He leaves in near me all the time when he goes into the garage or yard for something. I'm on the text loop with other moms from team and getting updates, pictures, so I'm not totally out of the loop of what's happening with team activities.

My call with Dr. H is tomorrow, so I know I'll get answers soon to this question, but I'm still not sure on exactly how to handle when he comes home tonight or even tomorrow if no one brings up R class. Likely he will not. Markos said not to talk it out (very helpful as I likely would have).

But what do I say? And do I tell him that I'd like us to do MB together but let him know if not then I don't see much hope? And do I do Plan A first if he's not interested (it seems like I've been in Plan A for a looooong time but I also know that resentment does not make me the most loving wife and I spent all last weekend ignoring him, which wasn't hard since he wasn't around)?

I want to thank you Prisca. I know you have a new baby (congrats) and making time to help me with this is very kind. I don't want to ask anyone I know for help. It's humiliating and I can't handle bad advice right now, which I know I'll get from certain family members.

In reading the other poster in the recent thread on alcohol recovery and parenting/discipline, I wanted to add that this is a common issue for us as well. My husband has said the same words, that attempting to control a child or discipline them other than simply talking, repeatedly, over and over, until it sticks, is going to cause rebellion. He will allow our 12 yr old to be incredibly disrespectful to me, but denies he allows it because he "talks to him."

Before leaving on Friday, my son yelled and screamed that there was nothing he'd like to eat in our home (we had smoothies, eggs, apples, protein bars, etc., plenty of food). He then asked my younger son (right in front of me) if he wanted to go play tackle football- on the pavement so he could pound him. My H got home right after this and I asked him to talk to our son. He just said "are you being nice?" Then that was it.

This happens everyday.

Which issue do I even start with?

You do not need to be Plan A for very long at all. For a woman, Plan A can simply be showing him that you are willing to create a great marriage with him. If he shows no interest, start making moves for a separation immediately. You should avoid all Lovebusters during this time, certainly.

In fact, start planning for a separation now so that you will be ready when the time comes. What will you do?

It is very common for husband and wives to disagree on disciplining children. Markos and I used to fight over this issue. Once you get into the program, you will learn how to negotiate this issue. It CAN be negotiated, and you both can be happy with the agreement you come to.

But, for now, you need to focus on the bigger issues of him traveling overnight, engaging in activities that you are not enthusiastic about, and his poor boundaries around women.

BTW, there is no sense in wasting time on worksheets if he continues to travel overnight and continues to go to classes you are unenthusiastic about.

Kat, you are right that you have basically been in Plan A for a long time. Dr. Harley does not recommend that women stay in Plan A long. And look what he says here in the When to Call it Quits article that SugarCane posted:


You need to start these preparations YESTERDAY. Get ready, because there is a good chance your husband will not respond, AND THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE HE IS DOING SOME TERRIBLE THINGS IN HIS SECRET SECOND LIFE THAT YOU WILL FIND OUT ABOUT.

1. Prepare for a separation
2. Investigate, snoop, and find out the full extent of what your husband is doing with other women when you are not around
3. Insist to your husband that if he wants to stay married to you, the overnight travel must stop. Don't discuss it or debate it with him. Just tell him this is the only thing you are willing to accept. If he says something about your son and sports, just shrug and repeat: "If you want to stay married to me, the nights apart have to stop, for the rest of our lives."

When he comes home, you tell him plain and simply "I am not enthusiastic about R class anymore." Definitely bring it up, but don't engage in a long, drawn out conversation with him. If he wants to argue, don't. If he wants to debate, don't. If he wants to ask why, don't spend any time defending yourself or your feelings. Just tell him you are not enthusiastic about it anymore, and leave it at that. Let him decide how he is going to respond.

Yes!

Thank you both for the plan. I read Sugar Cane's link but still felt stuck on what exactly I need to say and do. I will shelve discipline issues for now, thanks Prisca.

Thanks too for steps, Markos, and confirming I need to begin Plan B now.

1. Contact lawyer tomorrow for financial/legal advice? Shouldn't I give him opportunity to no longer engage in R class, overnights, and no time w me first? And give him chance to do MB w me? Tell him about MB- how?
2. Snoop, on it.
3. He's already agreed to no more overnights. But this was last tournament of season anyway, so I'll need to find a way to make sure this sticks. But he needs to agree for rest of our lives. Same with R w OS.

He has the opportunity ALL THE TIME. He can get started ANY TIME. If you prepare for a separation and he suddenly starts doing everything you need and becomes a wonderful husband, then you simply won't follow through with the separation - it's easy. The important thing is that you get started with those preparations RIGHT NOW in case you need them.

He has an opportunity to stop spending nights apart from you. You've already talked to him about this. He can stop any time he wants.

As far as telling him about Marriage Builders, you have already done that. Right now, "doing Marriage Builders with you" needs to start with him ending the nights apart and giving you complete transparency into his life. Worksheets and stuff like that don't matter right now - shelve that for now and focus on the fact that he continues to spend nights apart from you even though you object. The only thing you need to say to him is that you need for that to end.

Agreeing and following through are two different things.
I think it's going to be obvious if he intends to follow through simply by the way he talks about it.
Watch him ... Does he try to guilt you about your son no longer being involved in the game? Does he try to argue with you over it? Does he debate it at ALL? Does he try to make you feel silly or unreasonable?

Ok, but overnight travel will not be an issue for another 7 months. R class will be an issue this week. And yes, he will behave like someone who has lost something significant in their lives, because he doesn't know about MB or understand the concept of R time together or at the very least, not with OS. We did the ENQ in years past but he doesn't know about UA time or OS harm.

I'd like to give him a letter to read when he gets home tonight. I'll reiterate no more overnights, OS friends, including R class, and 15 hours a week together. I need complete transparency in his life (this he will understand more than anything else, he will agree to this). I'll tell him I'd like to revisit MB program together to learn how to negotiate and avoid conflict in our M, and start rebuilding a romantic relationship. I'll tell him that it's time I set the bar higher in our M for the sake of our family.

I haven't set this bar previously. I've given up getting him to meet my needs and instead have been trying to match his IB by working out hard daily w/out him, finding my own activities. But I'm lonely, and I know where that can lead and I want no part of that. When I've asked him to spend more time w me, and not go to R class without me, he says he will do more to meet my needs. He said on Friday night that he is interested in having a romantic relationship w me. He does not know how to put me first. I haven't required it. He thinks he's doing a great job by putting our "family" first, meaning working hard to provide and coaching. He was very confused when I told him how miserable I am.

Good idea?

Want to add that we used to effortlessly meet each other's needs and spend tons of time together. We were deeply in love for years. I still deeply love him.

But I agree, I can't accept the OS friends and neglect. It is extremely hurtful to me. I feel like I'm holding out for crumbs, hoping for any little sign of love or affection or conversation. And it feels very non-transparent when I go to an R class with him (he goes to several different ones, big community in our town). He knows women I don't, who seem surprised to meet me. It's so hurtful.

I don't think you've ever told us what "R" class is, but you need to see the very concept of recreational activity differently.

It isn't just that he need stop spend 15 hours a week out on dates with you. He also must not have recreational activities that he really enjoys (by definition - all recreation), that do not include you. So, it would not be good enough for him to find 15 hours per week with you, and still have time left over to spend time with his best friends. The recreational time he spends without you is creating a contrast effect. Dr Harley says that it is dangerous to spend your most enjoyable time with someone other than your spouse, and that is what your H does, with his coaching and other activities.

Quite apart from the "15 hours" concept, and quite apart from the issue of travelling, you and he need to find recreational activities that you both enjoy, and do those together - and they should be your only RC activities. He is not in love enough to be able to spend his most enjoyable time with friends.

Writing a letter is a great idea, especially for such an emotional subject.

SugarCane, I'm referring to the hour-long recreation class he does with a group of 99% women (there may be an occasional other guy). At first, it did not bother me. We used to go to a family gym and I got him into trying the class. But, he started going without me at different times that worked better in his schedule, with a small group of guys. We moved to a different area years ago, and he started going to a few different places throughout the week for the same type of rec. Some guys, but usually with their wives. He goes a ton, everyday. He meets women and talks to them after class. When I met up w him once a week, he was very distant w me, like I was imposing on "his" time. It was very weird. He's introduced me to women after the class whom he talks to and it is always uncomfortable. I get the impression they enjoy his conversation and skill and admire his ability (some have told me) and the fact that he has a wife may or may not come up. He likes having something totally independent of me. he would deny this. But it is very hurtful. He doesn't see the problem.

When I've done the occasional rec class and there was a group of men we both know there, he had no prob w this. I usually workout on my own, but I've tried various classes over the years.

The issue is he doesn't see the problem. I have now suddenly made it a problem. The overnights, R class w OS, lack of time w me, he doesn't see the problem. And, he enjoyed going with a group of men before we moved. It's just that very few men do this activity. It draws more women. It wasn't intentional, but neither are EA or PA. And it makes me very uncomfortable now that he's meeting and talking to different women and getting to know that community, totally independent of me.

It has always been this way though. Before, it was balanced with tons of time w me.

Now that we get NO time together and he's still doing RA with OS and talking more to women there than to me, and there is little to no ENs being met within the M, it's a problem.

All outside recreational activities will need to cease. His only recreational activities will need to be with you. And whatever ya'll choose to do together, it cannot include whatever this R class is. The R class is off the table.

Thank you, I'm glad to hear this. I get very emotional over these issues. I will do this. How to introduce MB concepts so he gets that we need help moving forward to restore love and so he doesn't think I'm just trying to control him?

Huge relief to me but he will see this as a selfish demand, a way for me to control him. I need to show him MB so he knows this is not just my trying to control him. There is a reason.

This is POJA. POJA is not a demand. It forces each spouse to show consideration for the other.

He enjoys his R class more than he enjoys his time with you. It is detrimental to your marriage. It is now off the table.

Tell him you want to do the Marriage Builders program together to build a romantic marriage. Tell him you need this from him. It will be up to him to decide whether he feels "controlled" or whether he sees it as an opportunity.

You are not controlling your husband, btw, by expecting him to act like a husband and not like a single dad.

You are absolutely right. Thank you.

No, don't try to persuade him, don't try to debate him. Just tell him you are not going to accept this any more, and be prepared to follow through with a separation. Go for broke.

For it to be a selfish demand, you will need to be telling him to DO something. It is not a selfish demand for you to insist that you are not enthusiastic about something, and therefore he doesn't get to do it -- this is just basic consideration.

Him continuing his R class when you are not enthusiastic is the selfish demand.

Actually, he is controlling you by FORCING you to endure his thoughtless behavior. Asking him to stop being thoughtless and hurtful is NOT "controlling." People with independent behavior always play the "control" card when their IB is addressed.

Control means to force someone to DO or ENDURE something against their will. It doesn't mean asking someone to STOP doing something.

You are getting great advice from Prisca!!

No, don't tell him this. This is not what HE needs to learn - it's what you need to learn!

Don't waste any breath trying to convince him that you are doing the right thing. Just do it, anyway. Be a little bit bullheaded, be someone who can't be reasoned with, someone who isn't going to change her mind. You aren't going to put up with anything less than a real MARRIAGE.

Plan A also involves being an attractive mate. Make sure you look nice and smell good when he gets home.

And dont even mention separation.

After reading these new posts, I am now going to rip up the letter and start over. Thanks so much to you all.

I do this every single day. I get no compliments, no encouragement, nothing. I eat well and exercise and get dressed up to go out on date nights, when they actually occur, and I get nothing.

Good job keeping it up.

Thanks, Apples.

Just skimmed through this thread...You're getting great advice.

Something you said that bothered me, you seem to think your H is at less risk for an affair because the women he hangs out with "are all married" "only one is single."

That does NOT make your M more safe from an affair, not even a little bit. Plesae get that thought out of your head immediately and never let it mitigate risk again into the future.

Another thing that stuck out at me...

You suggested that your H was somehow less at risk for an A since he is so focused on this sport for your son - his world revolves around etc.

Same thing as the last post - that's not a mitigating factor.

Like everyone else keeps saying...

Big red flag.

If your snooping does not uncover an affair, I would be willing to bet money he has developed feeings and/or is very close to the line with one of the women from this class, Kat.

I think she should hire a PI to follow him this week. These women were uncomfortable because they know something

I think this is far more likely than not and it scares me. But it still doesn't fully add up for me. He tells me which place he goes to, and it rotates depending on instructor. I know the 4 different instructors pretty well and it's fine. It's awkward with the ones I don't know, like they enjoy his company and realize it's not appropriate when I'm there in front of them.

It's not appropriate PERIOD. Also how are you to know that isn't sneaking out with one of these women part way through class or skipping some days? Part of me thinks you should talk to Dr. Harley before moving forward with your letter.

Agreed. I'll do whatever Dr. H recommends. But apples, I've already blown the cover on my suspicions. Last weekend (before posting here) I asked if he has feelings for someone else. He said no.

But the behavior is off. And at the rec activity it feels way off. But I have decided to go last min at times or plan to join him and have had our son in waiting area on devices.

But usually a woman will say hi to him not knowing we are together then look surprised when they see me. He introduced our son to one and she still didn't know I was w him while I was putting something away nearby and she talked to my son, asking him if he was hanging out w his dad that day. Then she looked surprised to meet me a few min later.

But this all makes ME sound crazy and paranoid.

I'm going crazy here. Lots of red flags, no sex or affection, or much time or conversation, and irritable w me on our few sporadic date nights.

And I've already made it clear I will I longer accept his going.

I've gotta say that I'm not any happier about that right now. He can stop all of this behavior and I'm more hurt and upset than ever knowing that all this time he's been so thoughtless, and inappropriate.

you are not crazy! and what you are feeling as paranoia is your gut telling you something IS off. Don't ignore that, and remember that whatever you ultimately discover, it is better than living in the dark knowing something is off.

It sounds perfectly rational to me.

And to me.

Thanks, guys.

I just remembered that he recently came home with passes for me to go to one of the rec classes with him with his favorite instructor, whom I know fairly well. He asked me if I'd ever been to that rec place before. I'd been about half a dozen times with him over the year. He didn't remember that I had gone with him.

Could it be possible that he just doesn't SEE me anymore? Or he totally takes me for granted and this class is an obsession/addiction? He used to go surf for 3 hour stretches and we'd fight about it, after we had kids. I felt like a single mom then too, especially on the weekends. He would not give it up. But no other women were involved.

ETA: In no way was he inviting me to join him- he said the instructor must have heard that we've been meeting up at another place once a week to go together and wanted us to go to hers as well. He gave them to me because she asked him to, as far as I know.

Kat...
I think it would be good for you to plant a VAR in his office. The fact that he works alone gives ample opportunity for underground behavior. The fact that he went to the pool with the men, where there was more action makes me think that he is seeking outside stimulation...same thing with his class...sure hope it's not zumba.

If he hid the gambling from you, that alone signals blatant disregard and doing things behind your back. There IS some type of secret second life going on. Slip a VAR in his car and office, and give it a week. You'll get a pretty good assessment of the situation. Do not let on that you are snooping or suspect an affair. Just know that a guy gets sex, whether with you, another person, or by himself (porn). Even in his 40s.

Thanks Didn't Quit. I'll look up what a VAR is and I appreciate the advice and insight. One problem is I do not have access to his office by myself.

Yes, the fact that he's seeking outside stimulation bothers me a lot. And I do feel that not telling me what he's doing, gambling, is a sign of troubling behavior. He would say that I knew where the T was, of course he'd hit a blackjack table, didn't think he needed to run it by me but now he knows for future.

LOL about Zumba...(not it).

VAR = voice activated recorder. A lot of people place them in their spouse's vehicle, you can velcro it under the seat. It might be a better option for you than the office since you will not only need to put it in, but also check it systematically, and having it in his car would be more accessible to you.

Some things to point out:

1) How can you claim no other women were involved? Unless you had a GPS on the car, VAR on his person or PI following him, you don't know what he was doing. It sounds like your H has a long history of IB and some signs of a SSL. You have to stop assuming you know what he has been up to - this is for any poster who has a spouse who has a life that he/she wants to keep separate from them.

2) "could it be possible that he just doesn't see me anymore" - that is a passive action. The things your H is doing are not passive - he is actively engaging in marriage wrecking behavior. He is doing things for HIMSELF at your expense (not for your children, as you seemed to use to justify his behavior in an earlier post).

3) Try not to get so hung up on whether this is about another woman. The big MB picture is that a H that behaves like yours (lack of EPs, not interested in meeting your ENs, IB, etc) WILL have an affair, if he has not already, or will ruin your marriage regardless.

Both Susie and I were married to serial cheaters. They are quite different from other kinds of cheater and there are some (not lots ) of signs here that you might be married to one.

Generally they do not get that emotionally involved, the thrill is in the chase and capture. So they are very calculating and careful to cover their tracks. Mine would always leave his cellphone unlocked and his email open. He just never used either of those for his affairs. He used only cash for meals and gifts.

He would introduce me to many of his girlfriends. Of course I did not know that they were girlfriends. The story he gave them, I think, was that he stayed with me because he loved his children so much (in real life he ignored his children). Your comment that the women looked surprised made me remember this. They would look surprised. I imagine looking back on it that this was because I was younger and prettier than them.

His first affair coincided with his first major lie. I only realised that putting the pieces of the puzzle together 20 years later.

Kat, Prisca and I are listening to your show with Dr. Harley right now. We'd like to encourage you to listen to the repeat several times before the next show takes its place tomorrow.

We may seem like a bunch of skeptics. Nobody here is trying to upset you. However, we all came here with reasons similar to yours. We had no idea why there was a disconnect, but we gradually figured it out. Many different reasons, but the symptom was an independent life, quick excuses, gaslighting and a hidden inappropriate behavior.
Your husband is not putting all of his eggs in your basket, and he doesn't want you to put your eggs in his.

Maybe the reason for the class passes was because the instructor was trying to send a message. Maybe a round about way to give you a hint and help you shore up your husband's poor boundaries. Just a thought. Man or woman instructor?

What did you think of the show?

Did Dr. Harley talk with you more about snooping off the air?

You sound like a very sweet woman, btw, and I'm sorry you're going through all this. I know separation talk can be scary (been there!). But, if you follow the plan Dr. Harley has for you here, you're going to come through this shining -- either with a fantastic marriage, or on your own and happier than ever.

Thank you, Prisca, and to everyone who posted here to help me. Being able to come here and get your insight has really helped me see things clearly (though not easy).

Prisca, your experience that you've shared has really given me a lot of hope that even if it did come to that (separation), I'd get through it. My parents have a terrible marriage and are still together, so I fully believe that either a happier marriage or even being alone is better than suffering through a terrible M.

Dr. Harley helped me see how challenging the situation is, but it was interesting that he did not suspect infidelity or even discuss that. It was all centered around the IB and my negotiating skills. He really hit the mark in helping me figure out how to address both. I can only do so much- invite my H (like Prisca said) to join me for a happier, integrated M or make plans to separate by living independently myself and observing if he will meet my needs or not.

My H met me right after to go for a long walk and discuss. He was not happy about giving up R class, but he is going to start practicing from home. He said he wants to integrate me into his life, yet he agreed he sees the world differently. He has the theory Dr. H pointed out about how some men believe they aren't compatible with any woman and prefer to do their own thing and come together at the end of the day. He said he does see it that way, but he is open to changing to do things together we both enjoy.

Then he asked if grabbing his paddle board to go out for a while solo is off the table. I think it will be baby steps for us. I don't think he will ever be able to give up doing his own activities, but everyone here has helped me realize how important it is that he give up any activity that is causing me pain, and he agreed he will stop with overnights away and outside classes with OS.

It's a martial art, isn't it?

Notorious for the close relationship between teacher and student...i.e. affairs.

Yoga

Oh, good grief...I think that might actually be worse.

I know. What better way to ogle women's rears?

It is.

Are you going to snoop?

No, Dr. H doesn't see it being the issue, due to previous IB back when dating/throughout M. I would if H refused to give up rec activity tho.

My plan is to continue to show him how we can integrate our M. My H made plans w me today on how to do that going forward. And, like Dr. H said, my challenge now is to get him to change his theory, that we CAN get along and enrich our lives doing things together, making decisions and plans together.

As long as there are no more rec classes w OS and overnights, we can move forward. I do need to have a plan in place if he reverts back to class w OS instead of me and overnights away.

It IS an issue because the IB lifestyle LEADS to affairs. It is Dr. Harley that has taught us this, and that is why we have been telling you to snoop all along.

You need to snoop.

What are the plans?

I snoop on my husband all the time. He's never had an affair. He doesn't have a second secret life, nor are there any red flags that I should be worried about. But, we're married. In the good marriage culture, spouses check up on each other. THAT'S what makes me able to trust him, and it keeps anything from ever becoming a problem.

We are so integrated that there is no way he could ever have an affair without me finding out about it almost immediately.

Unlike my husband, your husband has a lot of red flags. You have even MORE REASON to snoop.

Dr. Harley did not say that on your show.

Just because Dr Harley was focused on other things during the radio call doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't think infidelity/possible infidelity is an issue. He thinks that is an issue for all spouses to be worried about.

That is an integral part of his program, affair-proofing your marriage, which includes snooping.

There is some over-simplification going on, here.

He said you should be preparing for separation. He said in another case that reminded him of your H, the H just ramped up the IB and thoughtless behavior after being asked to address the problem.

He said you need to be prepared for that.

Kat, when Prisca and I attended the Marriage Builders weekend seminar in 2010, the packet of books we received came with a copy of Surviving an Affair and a note saying that Dr. Harley thought this was a good book for all couples to read whether their marriage was experiencing an affair or not.

Little did I know that within the next year, Prisca would start an affair!

Unless Dr. Harley told you "I don't suspect an affair," I think you should be really careful not to read your own opinions into what he is saying!

Just so you know, Dr Harley DOES recommend snooping. Whether or not he wants to give up his rec activity, you NEED to find out if he is having an affair.

As long as he does activities that he enjoys by himself more than the activities he does with you, your marriage will not work. He enjoys yoga more than he enjoys you. Yoga should go.

No, do not take baby steps. You need to be assertive and no longer accept any crumbs. He needs to join you completely and whole heartily in this marriage, or you need to separate. You are risking becoming so resentful that you hate him, at which point the marriage will be a hundred times harder to save.

So, don't take baby steps.

In order for you marriage to fully recover, ALL recreation needs to be with you at this point in your marriage. Dr. Harley allows for spouses to have recreational activities alone once certain criteria is met:

1. YOU are his favorite recreational companion
2. You are getting 15 hours Undivided Attention a week, meeting the 4 Intimate Emotional Needs, and you are in love.
3. The activity doesn't include the opposite sex.

It will be awhile before he should expect to do any recreational activities all by himself.

Guess what kind of lifestyle I was living ... It was full of Independent Behavior and secrets! I had poor boundaries around the opposite sex ... I accused markos of controlling me ....

Sound familiar?

Ok, so I must have misunderstood Dr. H. He told me off air that this is a case of IB, which he is seeing a lot more of. It's challenging for sure, but I didn't connect the dots to mean challenging in that it leads to A.

So I should not stop snooping because the R classes and overnights are stopping.

Our plans:
H home practice instead of going to outside class at lunchtime.
No more overnights. We go as a family or send son w family friends.
Hiking together 3xs a week, date night 1-2x a week, talk before bed 30min a night, no more devices in morning over coffee (30min).

Thank you for this plan. To implement these 3 steps i need to assert no rec activity without me, not even alone. Dr H said I'm supposed to join him and make it seem like he benefits too. Need to figure out how to do that...

One of the biggest reasons IB is so dangerous to marriages is because it is the kind of lifestyle that leads to affairs.

So, as Susie has pointed out, he may not be in an affair YET. But he's living the lifestyle that leads to affairs. You need to find out for sure.

The reason you need to find out for sure whether it's an affair or not is because the course of action you need to take will be different if there is an affair. So you need to rule it out.

How long does this take? Do YOU enjoy it immensely? Do you spend the time talking and flirting?

How long will the dates be? Doing what?

I'm not trying to grill you ... I'm trying to help you refine your plan

Yes. I understand.

Yes I love hiking w him but we hadn't done it in 2 yrs. today he said several times how much he was enjoying it w me. It's great because we can open up and be outdoors. Today we hiked locally for an hour. If we plan a longer trail this could easily be 1.5-2 hours.

Basically just be a fun gal to be with, but do it in a way that you enjoy. Lots of talking and paying attention to each other, while engaging in a recreational activity that you both enjoy. No demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts in the conversation. (Dr. Harley had a great point in the call about not judging each other's food choices, for example.)

Meeting a typical man's emotional needs is usually not very complex, as long as he isn't doing something more fun without you the rest of the time (contrast effect), and as love busters aren't happening.

Date nights have been 2 hours but we can stretch them out. He likes getting out of the house and we talked about getting tea after dinner.

He was more open than I expected. He's the one who suggested he start a home practice. I could do it w him...but I'm not sure it would be what he has in mind. Not sure yet how handle this. I don't want to force him to stop stretching.

Thank you for this! I need to remember to do this each time I'm w him.

When I told him we could brainstorm until we come up w solutions we both like instead of always compromising or going solo to avoid compromising, he right away said he'd love to go to 2 places for lunch that he didn't think I'd be open to.

He was very happy to hear we can do those options. So food has been a bigger issue for him than I realized.

These hiking trips will count toward UA, but you need to have blocks of 3-4 hours at a time. So come up with some activities that can surround the hiking experience ...

For example:
Drive: 30 minutes
Hike: 1 hour
Picnic: 1 hour
Hike: 1 hour
Drive home: 30 minutes

That is a pure example. You would need to tailor it to things the two of you enjoy doing. Driving in the car counts toward UA, btw, if it is full of enjoyable conversation and affection.

What would you be doing on these date nights together? How long would they take?

I really wouldn't worry about this. It sounds like possibly he'd rather go to lunch with you.

Ok, but then lunchtime hikes are out.

Back to drawing board. And shopping for snoop options (VAR).

Dinner has been the norm, which we both enjoy doing, but we've been so disconnected it has usually ended abruptly after hurt feelings. So far it takes 2 hours but we did get tea afterward once and enjoyed that so we can do that to stretch it out.

He resists my scheduling him, holding him to specific time periods/slots. He views it as being controlled. How should I address this Prisca? I want to give him a chance here. I know he wants to be happy w me and he told me several times how much he enjoys being around me on our hike today.

Do them anyway if you both enjoy them! Just understand you do need bigger chunks of time planned and not just a few minutes and a lunchtime here and there. A few minutes and a lunchtime here and there are great ADDITIONS to a lifestyle of big chunks of time together.

You don't schedule him. The two of you should work on the schedule, together.

Prisca, what if he wants to let it happen naturally?

How is that possible with work, children and sports coaching schedule? When I make plans with a friend for lunch for instance I need to know AT LEAST a week in advance so that I can schedule it.

What are we missing? Do you have a nanny on standby so you can take of for a few hours at the drop of a hat?

Nope. Our oldest babysits our younger son when we go out. So we have been going last minute when it fits in, and that needs to change, because like you said, everything else gets scheduled first and then I'm left with no time with my H. I need to be more assertive in being a priority for him. I need to figure out how to do this without demanding that he make a schedule with me.

That's not going to work, so tell him you are not willing to accept that.

How are your separation plans going? To summarize what needs to happen here:

1. prepare for a separation
2. give him a chance to do what needs to be done here
3. separate if he doesn't

He might give all sorts of reasons for not doing what needs to be done here, but save your breath and don't waste time trying to persuade him. The important thing is that you are going to insist that in order to be with you, he is going to have to do these things that any man needs to do in order to have a happy wife.

Let's not waste any time, because you need to get this going as soon as possible. Instead of you taking time to figure it out, let us tell you. Here's what you need to do:

Tell him you need him to schedule at least fifteen hours a week with you. This is what EVERY wife needs. If he gives some reason he doesn't want to do that, simply say "that's not going to work." Meanwhile, get those separation plans going. Don't mention separation to him. Just stay on point that you need these things, in short, simple conversations that don't involve you trying to persuade him or debate with him.

You are right. I guess I'm stuck on how to prepare for separation. Now it feels very scary because he is willing to try but it's not enough.

I need to figure out how to prepare for separation as a stay at home mom. Has anyone else here been there, done that? My thinking is that we have savings to cover a separation for a year. Do I plan to use that? And how do I talk to a lawyer without my H knowing? Anyone have resources for this?

Thank you for this- I know I need to do this. Text him now or tell him today when we meet? I want to be pleasant but I honestly don't know how to say this without sounding confrontational or demanding. He's thinking, I'm no longer going to yoga because she asked me to stop. I'm meeting her to do activities with her. I love her. What more does she want?

Kat I hope you realize the point of my post was that we all KNOW your H's plan to "let it happen naturally" won't work. It hasn't worked and he knows this.

It's another form of gaslighting you basically, to feel like you are being "controlling" when you are NOT.

SusieQ, understood. I did not have a chance to ask him to sit down and figure out how to schedule 15 hours of UA time with me. All I did was brainstorm with him on our hike ways we can spend more time together, and we came up with a plan to hike more during lunch time, and go on two dates a week, and not use iPhones in morning.

So if he disagrees that we need 15 hours of UA time scheduled, it's not worth negotiating or explaining. This is hard for me...I feel like our M is worth at least explaining why this is important to me.

Dr Harley refrains from working with couples who are not committed to scheduling 15 hours a week of UA time, simply because it is such a key element to his plan. Without spending adequate time together meeting the 4 intimate needs, you will not stay in romantic love, it is just that simple. That is the goal to the MB program, and it sounds like it is your goal too, so it is not a step that can be overlooked.

I hope you don't misinterpret Dr Harley's advice to become an expert in negotiating to mean that you can somehow convince your H to do things that he's simply unwilling to do.

If he said he wants to have date nights with you weekly, it is should be easy to discuss scheduling it. A 12 year old would understand that concept. Where things become complicated is when you start going down the path of "well if I can just get him to understand A, B C or D, he will get on board".

I think all you can do is (using the principles of good conversation/negotiation - without using lovebusters) is ask him to schedule the time with you and let you know it's something that is important to you and your marriage. It's really that simple.

If he won't do it, well, then I think this is why Dr Harley told you that you need to start planning for a separation.

Thanks SusieQ and unwritten for helping me understand that I don't need to sell him on MB. I just need him to know that scheduling 15 hours/week is important to me and our M. It's up to him if he wants to do it with me or not. If not, need to separate. And plan now in case he can only do it for a short time.

Your marriage is worth insisting that you need this to happen. Your marriage is worth going for broke and saying that if you can't have what you need you are not going to settle for less and you are going to separate and wait for him to decide if he is willing to do what it takes or not.

It is important to be ready to separate sooner rather than later because you are still willing to work on your marriage.

Quite frankly, I believe the world would be a better place if EVERY wife insisted that her husband give her the time and attention that are needed for her emotional needs to be met. We would have better children in the world, we would have better, happier men in the world, and we would certainly have happier, healthier, and more accomplished women. Marriage is not helped by so many men being able to say they don't think this is necessary - but sadly, only about 20% of marriages do what it takes to stay happily married for life. Most people don't know what it takes to have a good marriage. Yet people do better at all of their goals in life if only this most important goal - a good marriage - is met.

As far as being controlling, you need to rethink this ideology.

Setting the bar high means to create boundaries of what YOU will accept in a marriage, it does not equate to trying to control your H. In the past maybe that was...don't beat me, don't cheat on me, provide for our family.... whatever the boundaries were, you can see they were not enough and have led you to unhappiness. Now you are setting the bar higher, requiring things that will sustain romantic love and make you both happy. You are simply telling him that these are the things that you need to stay married to him. Control is making someone do something. You are not making him do anything, you are simply telling him your boundaries and what you require to stay married, he can choose to participate or not.

This makes a lot of sense. Dr H said off air that he suspects my H identifies w our 12yr old. That's why he's so willing to accommodate him. We are not doing our son any favors by demonstrating that a M puts a 12 yr old above the M.

I need to figure out how to separate as a stay at home mom. And how to plan legally. What about advice here for men to not leave their homes? My H will not willingly go. He sees separation as throwing in towel. He will not understand that if it came to that, it would be to give him chance to have stronger M w me.

If you separate, you don't need to worry about what your husband thinks about it.

If you were to separate, do you think you would need to work in order to support yourself?

How many and how old are your kids again?

This is what I don't know. My kids are 12 and 9. They will be home all summer and one does an independent program and is home 3 days per week. The other does after school therapy and gets out at 2:00.

You would need to check the laws in your state, but some states have legal separations that would provide for custody arrangements, child and spousal support, and the division of property.

He's doing everything I've asked and seems enthusiastic about it. He seems really happy about it.

I'm having a hard time not bringing up past hurts and talking about how much it upset me that he was not inviting me to yoga class or making me feel welcome but he was happy to talk and meet other women there.

I know it's important that I don't. I think how I addressed the issue with him has a lot to do with his reaction. I couldn't have done it this way without everyone here and the nudge to call Dr. H.

Not bringing up the past is important. Distract yourself if you need to. As time goes on and the marriage improves, it becomes less difficult.

So things have been great until this morning and I need some input on how I could have handled this better.

Over coffee, H says to older son that they need to get in an activity that he does with our boys. I can come too, but usually don't (I don't enjoy this activity).

After son left, I brought up the activity and said instead, I'd like us to do a family activity. H said we can add that in the plans too, but he didn't do anything wrong by planning this activity with our boys. I could tell he was getting very defensive. I wasn't trying to make him feel defensive. I explained that we haven't done a family activity in over a month since travel sport and practice has taken up all free time. H argued that we do plenty of family activity, that I'm focusing on negatives, that I'm welcome to join them but I don't like to go.

When I said we could negotiate and come up with a family activity to do together that I actually enjoy too, he got up and left the room, saying that I'm making everything difficult.

I did not get angry. He things I'm unreasonable and he can't make me happy. I told him I want to be the priority, that I want him to make plans to include me.

Not sure how I could have handled this better. Please help.

Kat, you need to tell him that ALL the kids activities, and what he considers to be family activities, are wiped off the week's chart and that you start with a blank slate.

On that chart, your UA time with your husband is the priority. Schedule 4 dates of 3-4 hours each, or 3 dates of 4-5 hours each. Do not allow fewer than 3 separate dates.

Schedule kids activities and family activities once your UA time has been completed.

If there is enough flexibility, then of course you can schedule your UA time for times when you know the kids do not have classes - but only do this if it is easy. In fact, as an alternative, you might find that when they are doing stuff, this is a good time for you to get free babysitting and go out also. (I forget how old they are.) However, the principle is that your UA time comes first. Do not allow the kids and family activities to come first.

If your husband won't agree to that, you are back to where you were when you came here, and you know what you need to do when yo get back to that position.

What your H is demanding is not good enough. Don't put up with it.

He should have handled it better, not you.

Raise your standards, kat.

Thank you for both posts helping me this morning, Sugar Cane. Your perspective helps keep me on track, knowing that I'm not being unreasonable.

I need to let him know that all family/kids activities are off the table until we have scheduled 15 hours a week of UA time. If that requirement is met, he can take the boys to do an activity with him that I do not enjoy?

This explaining and arguing your point will just keep the argument going. Try to repeat your original feelings instead. Example: I still don't feel good about that idea and would love it if you could respect that. Repeat if he continues to argue.


He is gaslighting you every time he says, " but you don't like that activity."

Obviously what Sugarcane posted is the solution. If you guys can get planning then he will learn to prioritze you, then the kids next, all activities mutually agreed upon.

Thinking ahead can be difficult for some people. But if he can do that then maybe you can both set aside one night a week for him to do that with your son. The goal is win-win.

Is there a time this weekend when you would be enthusiastic about him doing that activity with your son? If so, maybe offer that alternative.

My husband used to have an aversion to planning. It was very taxing on him. One thing that helped was to use the UA sheet. We also used actual planners instead of phones. We had one planning meeting on Sunday afternoon and one at lunch on Thursday. We used Thursday to fine tune things because over the week things come up and we needed make sure that we stuck to our priorities. Otherwise, extracurriculars and external forces would creep in, especially over the weekend. The order of priorities is written right on the UA sheet.

Can you see if your husband will sit down with you today at lunch and plan out your weekend? If so, make sure to include a meeting on Sunday in your plan.

We need to sit down and plan. I'm glad you mentioned the UA sheet. I haven't tried this yet. So far, we've been discussing the week and figuring out time to be together verbally. We've come up with lunch time (1.5 hours- hike together, then out for lunch), and date nights 2 times a week, and morning coffee (1.5 hours), and before bedtime.

He is wondering what he did wrong by asking my son if he wanted to go to this activity. It wasn't for this weekend, he meant by the month's end, before their passes for the activity run out. I'm actually the one who said I don't like that activity, can we pick a different one that includes me?

It is a daytime activity that takes 5 hours.

I will print out the UA sheet today and go over it with him this evening. Thank you.

There you go Kat. I see nothing wrong with him making plans with your son so long as you two agree it is OK. That would mean that you and him have planned your hours together first and he could plan this event around your UA time.

I'd get that alone time with him scheduled first then let him negotiate with you on when he does these other things. Optimally if Family Time is important to you you'd be finding things you all enjoy so I understand your request to change the activity. If you can be happy with just the UA time then maybe this other activity happens at a time outside UA time.

Great opportunity here for you and him to learn how to negotiate and navigate in your UA time. This should be a regularly scheduled habit you and him get into. A partnership.

UA time needs to take place outside the house to be effective. Is your coffee time at home or at a coffee shop?
Time together in the house before bedtime also will not count.

UA time should be about 4 dates a week, 3-4 hours at a time. They should be out of the house, and include intimate conversation, affection and recreational companionship. The only time that you should count any at-home hours is for sexual fulfillment, that should take place AFTER one of your 3-4 hour dates.

The first problem is IB. He is planning activities without talking it over with you first.

The second problem is that UA time with you has not been fully established and he's already chomping at the bit to run off to do activities without you.

The third problem is that you have a need for Family Commitment. Dr. Harley has said that after you have planned your 15 hours a week UA, you should then plan 15 hours of family commitment time. This activity that you do not enjoy should not be included. You are not enthusiastic about it. You two need to be planning 15 hours a week as a family that you DO enjoy.

Prisca, you summed it up- this is why I tried talking to him about it. And it didn't go well.

I'll print up the UA sheet and try tonight. I'm starting to get tired of being the only one who is trying. He just doesn't get it.

This is why Dr. Harley recommends Plan B sooner rather than later for wives. The longer he drags his feet and causes trouble, the more of a drain it will be on your emotions and on your willingness to recover your marriage.

Are you still preparing for a separation, or did you drop those plans when he initially indicated he would do what you need? At this point, it's impossible to tell if he's really going to do what you need or if he's just trying to placate you while hoping this all blows over. That's why it is crucial that you follow through and make your separation preparations and be prepared to follow through with separation if needed.

I would suggest you set a deadline that you don't tell him about - say, three weeks from today, if he is still dragging his feet and arguing with you, you separate.

Markos, it's almost like he is reading here so I'm hesitant to answer your questions above. I just got a text from him, very loving, Can't wait to see me soon for our hike/lunch. Followed by another one saying he made reservations at a nice place we usually save for our anniversary.

And all week he's been sending me notes about how much he's enjoying our hiking/lunch together. Not one word or complaint about missing his R class.

To be fair, he's always sent me a daily loving text. But I know he is making an effort here. I don't want to discourage him and if he is reading here (wouldn't be too far fetched since I've sent him Dr H's articles recently), I don't want him to think I have one foot out the door.

For the record, my H does not make reservations except on our anniversary (not even coming up). He resists planning a lot. My scheduling the kids is one major issue he had with me and why he wanted to take our son on tourney's alone.

I'm so confused here. I feel like I'm on an emotional roller coaster.

It will not hurt your marriage for him to know this. Often times, this is what it takes for a husband to start taking the wife seriously.

These tourneys are planned events, are they not? He DOES schedule, he just doesn't want to schedule with you and have to take you into account. Classic IB.

That's going to have to change if he wants a good marriage with you.

It certainly sounds like he can do what you need. So just keep letting him know when and how he misses the mark, and watching to see if he does what you need or makes excuses. At the same time, keep making plans for a possible separation. If it turns out later the plans aren't needed, that's great, but in the meantime, don't stop them.

It is VERY important that you let him know when he misses the mark, ESPECIALLY if he really is trying. He can't read your mind, and he doesn't think like you do. So what may seem obvious to you, he'll never even imagine. If he really does want to change things, then he needs to know when he misses the mark.

Ok, and thanks to both of you for talking me through this. I'll print out the UA and ask him to schedule with me before we go out tonight.

And I'll make a list of what I need to do if the next 3 weeks don't continue with him trying. I know he will try, but I also know he doesn't understand and needs to be open to hearing me and what we need to have a better marriage.

So on our hike today I said I'd like us to make a plan to schedule at least 15 hours of alone time together a week, then talk about adding other activities.

"Uh huh." Was his response. And that was it.

He's since texted me that it was a great hike/lunch together, he loves me, hugs and kisses (virtual).

WHY is this so hard? It's like he wants me to start an argument. But then he sends me sweet texts. And when we said goodbye he told me he was so excited to go on our date tonight.

Oh, and he's not planning to go back to R class. He said he's cancelling the membership to the main place he goes since he doesn't need it anymore.

Gently keep bringing up UA time until it is priority #1. If there are no concerted efforts to back up his words, separate.

Radio Clip of Kat37's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

He scheduled 15 hours for the week using the UA worksheet. Thank you all so much for your help here. I'm feeling very positive about our M going forward and I wouldn't have figured this all out on my own. This forum and Dr H have been a great resource for me and I look forward to checking in here going forward.

Thank you all again for the help.

ETA: Will continue listening to the radio show daily- another great resource.

Go Kat! Wahoo!

Kat, do you have an update? Are ya'll sticking to the UA schedule? How is the family commitment time? How is his IB?

Hi Prisca! Thanks for asking. And thanks DQ for the encouragement.

Things are going great. My H and I sat down with the UA worksheet and scheduled 15 hours together, and came up with ideas for family time too (though we did not plan out 15 hours for FT, we got a lot of that in too with plans for more, it was really fun too, bowling and brunch). I'm very happy with how it's been going. H and I have spent every lunch together, and going on our 2 long dates a week, plus a weekend rec. We have been meeting each other's top intimate needs.

We've hit two stumbling blocks though and I've been reading here lots to try to figure out.

1. He sits in silence a lot. He's making an effort to talk to me more, he knows how important that is to me, but after two 3 hour dates and a long hike and coffee date over the weekend, he was doing that thing where he doesn't engage w me much and spends some of our time looking out the window in opposite direction in total silence. For a loooong while. It definitely bothers me but:

2. When I ask what's wrong, or if everything is ok, he gets very frustrated. He snapped at me once and I told him that we should not spend time together and do our own thing at that point. He doesn't yell or have a typical AO...he gets irritated. And my feelings get hurt.

He tried to rally me, said he really wants to spend time with me, told me not to just give up on our UA time right then, and instead understand how much it bothers him to hear I'm not happy with him at that moment, and that asking him what's wrong puts too much pressure on him.

Thoughts? IB is gone, he hasn't gone anywhere or done anything without my agreement and he is only recreating w me.

The two of you will need to work on finding conversation topics that are interesting to both of you.

Sitting in silence is not UA time -- do NOT count it in your total hours. If you have 15 hours planned, and 8 of those are spent sitting in silence, then you only need to put down that you had 7 hours of UA that week.

Don't accept crumbs.

Snapping at you is an AO, and it should not be counted in your UA time.

What is he doing to eliminate his AOs? Snapping at you because you asked a question is not acceptable EVER.

Does he blame you for making him angry?

He's not that fragile. He's lovebusting you then blaming you for it, plain and simple.

If it bothers him that you are not happy with him, HE CAN CHANGE THAT. He doesn't need to snap at you over it. He doesn't need to respond to that by abusing you.

Has he read Lovebusters?

Thoughts? IB is gone, he hasn't gone anywhere or done anything without my agreement and he is only recreating w me.

Thank you SO much Prisca. It helps me to hear this.

H has not read Lovebusters. I'll download it today and ask him to read it.

This is a pattern in our M. I'll be in a great mood, asking him questions, initiating fun conversation, and he will not reciprocate after a few minutes. Then, I ask what's wrong or if he's ok, he gets irritated and snappy, I get hurt and have my own AO (tell him to just take me home, stonewall when he ignores me at children's games, etc.).

I've made the commitment to no longer stonewall, but when he snapped at me the other day, I really did just want to go home and forget the date.

I've been feeling very guilty about the incident on Sat., so thanks again for helping me see that I'm not being unreasonable. And I'll ask him to read LB.

He IS trying- he has been closer to me every day and spent recent games sitting with me without my asking, laughing and chatting (about the sport). But then when sports talk runs out he has no more to say. I just thought he was very introverted.

Let us know what he says.

Okay, you don't need to have an AO in response to him. BUT, wanting to get away from him, or refusing to talk to him, AFTER his AO is not a bad thing. "Stonewalling" when you have been subjected to an AO is NOT A BAD THING. Listen to your instincts on this. When your husband is having an AO, or being disrespectful, the BEST thing you can do is to stop talking to him and get away from him.

Do you enjoy talking about the sport?
If so, continue to discuss it with him. But he also needs to find another topic of conversation that you both enjoy.


I am extremely introverted. But you wouldn't know it if you watched me and markos on a date -- we talk non-stop. Introverts CAN and DO enjoy conversation, but the conversation must be something that is interesting to us. He doesn't have to be silent just because he's an introvert.

You really need your husband to learn and practice Dr. Harley's "Friends and Enemies of Good Conversation." This is in His Needs Her Needs in the conversation chapter, and there's also an older version of it on the site here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

(I recommend the book version over the website version, but either will work.)

I recommend that men reread the four friends and four enemies DAILY until they have it down, and try to practice with their wives daily. If they will do this it creates conversation that is enjoyable for you, so you get what you need, and enjoyable for him, so that he will want to keep doing it.

Very helpful. He talks a lot during the work day to clients, and has to be open to all kinds of topics and converse whether he's interested or not. So I know he's capable, plus he used to talk with me a lot. But I think it's a contentment thing. He often says he just doesn't want to talk to fill the space, that he doesn't need to always be talking.

I'll print this out and give it to him. This is a great article and applies to us for sure. We seem to rely on superficial conversation, lots of talk about the weather.

But he will see it as criticism, which I know is an LB for him. Any recommendations on how to present it? I'm also going to ask him to read Love Busters, which he may not see as a criticism. He knows I am reading He Wins, She Wins and he seemed interested enough to ask me how it was, though not interested enough to read it himself. I didn't ask him to though.

The two of you will need to find topics that are mutually enjoyable. It could be something totally off the wall and unrelated to anything else in your life. When markos and I started, a topic he hit on was the British Royal Family. We enjoyed talking about them immensely (kind of odd, considering we are Texans ....). As long as you enjoy it, that's what matters.

Conversation is one of the most important emotional needs. It's how people fall in love.

I think printing it out and telling him what you need is the best way you can present it.

Beyond that it is up to him to recognize that he needs to act on your feedback even if it makes him uncomfortable. Honestly I have been impressed so far that your husband grumbles a bit at your complaints but does seem to follow up on them and act on them! So I think there's some reason to hope here that he will give you what you need.

Here is something Dr. Harley wrote to me very recently:
"She tells you that you are affecting her negatively, so you then respond by trying to modify whatever it is you are doing. That gives her the feeling that your care about her, and she feels bonded to you. Handling negative feedback in a proactive way is a skill set that is very important in marriage, especially for husbands."


Your husband might like the audio books or the radio show.

It is definitely one of my most important needs. Too funny about the Royal Family!

I think printing it out and telling him what you need is the best way you can present it.

I will do that.

Beyond that it is up to him to recognize that he needs to act on your feedback even if it makes him uncomfortable. Honestly I have been impressed so far that your husband grumbles a bit at your complaints but does seem to follow up on them and act on them! So I think there's some reason to hope here that he will give you what you need.

Thanks for this- he's good at following through.

Here is something Dr. Harley wrote to me very recently:
"She tells you that you are affecting her negatively, so you then respond by trying to modify whatever it is you are doing. That gives her the feeling that your care about her, and she feels bonded to you. Handling negative feedback in a proactive way is a skill set that is very important in marriage, especially for husbands."

Good insight, thanks for sharing.


Your husband might like the audio books or the radio show. [/quote

I thought of that- I'll offer to him.

One thing about the radio show...

My husband listens every day. However, when he first listened, he felt that it was a waste of time since the programs he caught were about affairs, and he couldn't relate to the callers.
So what really helped us was to subscribe to the archives (very affordable) and download programs on a certain topic. Then add them to a playlist. So you could download ones about undivided attention or conversation to start with, and you can listen together while you walk or drive in the car.

It is fun to listen separately as well, and share our thoughts about it at night. At this point, even the shows about affairs can be applied in some way or another.

DQ, can you explain how you and your husband listened to the show while walking together? My husband doesn't enjoy reading much and he doesn't commute, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to suggest he listen or read the info. While we walk together might work, but wouldn't that cut into our UA time?

By the way, I love the show and at first thought the same thing- no affairs here so doesn't apply. But I listen every day now and it has helped me understand how to apply MB a lot. But I listen while folding laundry.

Markos and I enjoy listening to the show during UA because it gave us something to talk about.

Thanks, Prisca. I'd really enjoy this. I'll have to ask my husband if he'll try it.

Ran into a mom today who told me that she remembers seeing H in previous rec class and he was in front used as demo.

It triggered something for me. Trying not to feel hurt but I am. Feeling like he's going to miss that a lot and didn't want to include me in that part of his life, like he had this totally separate life from me he really loved.

I'm guessing you all will tell me not to bring it up again, right?

Leave the past in the past. Your resentment will fade if he keeps up with what he is doing.

Ok. Thanks. Having a hard time right now.

Think about the good times you are having and his current efforts.

I brought it up and it didn't go well. H told me how he really feels, that I'm accusing him of doing something wrong and not trusting him. I'm just being jealous and weird, because I got it into my head from "some guy" that he shouldn't go workout on his lunch break.

He later told me he does understand but doesn't like that I'm accusing him of doing something wrong. I tried to explain that I was telling him my feelings, not accusing him of anything. But I agreed to not bring it up again. He said "good."

He agreed to read LB and the Good Conversation article. He agreed we need tools to communicate better.

My H confuses me.

Why did you bring it up?

I had just heard the mom's comments and my H asked what was wrong. I was hoping for reassurance that he wouldn't miss that and was happy doing rec with me instead.

I realize I never should have brought it up. But now one of the instructors reached out to ask me if I want to get together for coffee after running into her yesterday. She's a friend of mine but saw my H more, at classes. So that's twice in one day the class issue and not seeing my husband there has come up.

I just don't think this is something that's going to go away.

What needs to go away is your H doing things that make you unhappy, or threaten your marriage. His RC time with other female's during his lunch hour did both.

If you are saying you don't think that particular activity is going to go away, is there a way the two of you can do it together? It didn't sound like it was the actual activity that you disliked, as much as the method of him doing it. This could be an opportunity for use of POJA.

So don't go to coffe and cut off that aquaintance. Just don't pick fights with your husband. He can't change the past. By bringing it up to punish him, you are showing him he can't win. Only bring up current problems. If you are being triggered, focus on the great present events, tell your H you are having a bad day and could use a hug. Then go do or plan some fun time together. Do You think you two could take a getaway soon?

If anyone asks, tell them y'all are getting into hiking instead, if anything.

Exactly, unwritten. He is not planning to go, but I will have to learn to deal with hearing about how admired my H is in classes and answer questions from other women about why he's no longer going.

I asked him why he didn't include me, invite me to join him more as I have done the classes too.

He responded that I'm not as advanced so I wouldn't be able to do his class level. Somewhat true, but still hurt. Not totally true though- it's not like a black belt situation. I can go to the classes (and I have) but there are some advanced things I didn't do.

If he had been more welcoming when I did meet him once in a while, I would have offered that as a possible solution. But like others here told me, it needed to stop completely because when I did join, he didn't engage with me much at all. He didn't even save me a spot when he got there first because he didn't want to tell another person (female) that he was waiting for his wife. And, he didn't even remember when I had joined him.

I will do this, great advice and thanks for the plan. Very helpful. I really just could have used a hug last night. He told me I went about it the wrong way. I admit I did, though I did not get angry. I was not pleasant though.

I'm not very experienced, but do any of you think Kat should still be snooping thoroughly? I do.

Let the past be in the past and focus on the current actions in how you choose to respond to him, but don't stop snooping and looking for evidence of an Affair or affairs. Recovery will go round in circles and wear you out if you skip this step.

After hearing all of this, I think that the activity itself is a trigger for you of him being disrespectful and uncaring. I would avoid this activity all together and find a different activity that you can build new memories doing together.

Every married person should be snooping; Kat37 should continue snooping hard.

Yes, unwritten. That is the problem and why I came here looking for help, which I got and am very grateful for. The past 2 weeks have been better than they have in 2 years (or 18 months).

But I don't know that he feels that way, based on what he said last night, that he still thinks I'm being unreasonable.

And thanks for the replies, apples. I brought up the possibility of a getaway to him so waiting to hear back. I'd love that and it has been a long time.

I think it is likely not about the activity at all, but rather the admiration and other needs he was having met by the women in his class. That is why he did not welcome you to class, and why he is having a hard time giving it up. It may not constitute as an affair, but getting his needs met in this way could still have an addictive nature just like an affair does. It could also lead to an affair with someone in his class. It is also another reason why he HAS to give it up, nobody should be meeting those needs other than YOU.

All that matters is he has agreed to give it up and has done so. Don't bring it up again. If he brings it up, tell him you are not enthusiastic about him doing (activity) and leave it at that.

Yes.

You're describing exactly what my instincts have told me and why I've come here for help. I know I need to never bring it up again and I will do what you've recommended if he does. It is very hard for me to not discuss this with him. I wish I could make him see what you've said above so he'd understand.

Remember, this plan is about action. Many say they are sorry and understand and was all wrong and on and on...but what matters is how they change their behavior. The right actions are the best apologies and understanding.

Apples, you're right. And my husband has been demonstrating the right actions since I brought this up 2 weeks ago. He will not say it was wrong though, what was hurting me. I need to just focus on the actions.

He just sent me a text telling me how much he enjoyed our rec/lunch time today.

He is very action-oriented. He's doing the right things.

What matters is what he does, not what he says. He doesn't have to agree that it was wrong AS LONG AS he is taking action to change things. You don't have to get into the "rightness" or "wrongness" of things. In fact, trying to define what is "right" or what is "wrong" very easily becomes disrespectful judgements. Even a betrayed spouse who is dealing with a wayward spouse in an AFFAIR is suppose to avoid debating their spouse about whether or not the affair is wrong -- and an affair is most definitely WRONG! And they are dealing with a situation much worse than what you find yourself in.

Stay away from "value judgements."

It's hard to believe when you are in the midst of trying to repair your marriage, but it really is for YOUR benefit to avoid talking about the mistakes of the past. Yes, he was wrong. But you don't need to get him to admit that to make things better.

Dr. Harley discussed snooping on today's show (rerun from March).

Ok, Prisca, thanks. I'll need to remind myself because I know it's going to come up again.

Another issue is it is on my mind a lot, so I find it hard to engage in intimate conversation when I can't talk to him about things I really do want to talk about. Not to blame him, but relationship stuff like what I heard on MB or what I read in Dr. H's book, etc.

Now that he has those materials, I'm hoping maybe he will bring relationship info up. I know I'm not supposed to try to "educate" him, and he resists that anyways.

Just started listening to the show now! Thanks.

I sent this article to my H Friday morning and our date last night was the best we've had in a long time.

Prisca, he also read the article on Angry Outbursts and the underlying irritability wasn't there at all last night.

Thanks so much to you both.

Just ran into another mom who told me she was recently partnered up w my H in rec class. She is happily married and was being transparent. I'm not jealous, just irritated that H didn't think to even mention it to me, despite knowing that I'd at least be interested. She is a friend of mine.

Just mentioned it to him without getting angry or hurt, just in conversation since we are w this family today right now. He didn't say anything.

STOP. If you need to move to get away from reminders, start working on it. Do not bring up old problems though.

Ok.

A couple more issues I'd love help with to figure out how to solve better:

1. We missed our scheduled date last night due to impromptu team dinner following son's last game of the season. We should have opted out, we'd had a team celebration dinner the night before. H left decision to me. Son would have been very angry and I'm already the one he directs anger towards as I enforce rules more than H. When I mentioned rescheduling date for another night this week H said "well you could have said no to team dinner." Also, angry son would not be good for leaving younger son in his care to go out with H.

2. When we got to restaurant H didn't wait for me to get out of car, walked up way ahead to join others. When I asked him to wait up, he did. I caught up and said "you're walking way ahead of me," he said "don't worry, it's all good." I told him it bothers me when he doesn't wait for me.

3. We had a 2 hour break to grab lunch in between games and H said to me "boys want Subway so going there now. Do you want me to pick you up anything?" He was going to leave me at the field with no car or other option if I didn't want Subway (I don't eat gluten). He was practically dashing off. I had to think fast to stop him and say, "wait, I'll come, I don't need to sit at field for 2 hours."

It's this lack of consideration that makes me wonder if he even cares about me. It didn't even occur to him that driving with me would be more pleasant than driving with the kids by himself.

Ingrained habits take time to change. You need to be patient but you also need to be snooping. Every time one of us reminds you that you must do this, you ignore us. The reason for the snooping is that no amount of gently telling him that his independent behaviour bothers you will cause him to make any real changes if he is having an affair. So you need to nail this one.

Living Well, point taken, thank you.

What I'm wondering if what if I continue to turn up nothing? If my H has had feeling for another woman he's connected with through rec class, I'd have no way of knowing. And my husband is smart enough to know that any acknowledgement could ruin everything he's built with me.

So I haven't read anywhere here how to handle if IB that led to connection with other women but no EA (at least, visible lines not crossed, no texts or emails exchanged, feelings not expressed). What if this is what I'm dealing with?

is there any other reason for him to not pay much attention to me? Or really care if I'm there or not?

I'm still confused.

Kat, I would say that your husband needs to end his involvement in your son's sports if it's going to cause him to continue to be so inconsiderate.

Snooping is for everyone. Each of us should be fact checking out spouse with some regularity. Did you put spyware on any of his devices, especially the work ones?

The behavior needs to changes because it is painful. We want to make sure an affair is ruled out so you don't waste time on unproductive activities.Affairs are handled differently than other IB.

Let him know you don't like it when he makes lunch plans with the children before speaking to you about the plans. As a couple, you should make plans and inform the children. One way to handle this is to discuss it before leaving the house. Also dinner after a game is predictable (common for any team that travels, especially the last few games of the season. Discuss how to handle this before the game.

IB needs to change no matter what. I'm not sureif that was clear before.

Apples, yes IB has changed in terms of no longer going to rec activities and now spending 15 hours UA time with me. I completely understand the reasons for continuing to snoop, and will follow your suggestion to talk about meal options beforehand. This is going to be a tough one for us- H will try to dismiss my feelings on this, will say that we need to be flexible and a lot depends on where team wants to go for lunch. H agreed with boys to facilitate their subway trip with other teammates before discussing it with me.

Markos, thanks for the validation. It is inconsiderate to put son and team activities over me. It is not a once in a while thing, either. This is something we come up against every week. I'd love for it to stop, but H does not agree or see it this way.

I know I need to continue to snoop and transparency in marriage is very important. What I'm wondering here is if anyone has had a situation like this (H can be inconsiderate without being mean) that was turned around? H has no real need to do things with wife, include her whenever possible and want her in the car next to him to run errands, etc., but will do what she asks for her sake, and change? Find he likes having her nearby and eventually wants to be with her a lot (or at least consider her more)?

Not sure if this is clear- anyone know of a situation where a H was not having an affair but takes wife for granted and doesn't need much from her or with her, other than DS, some SF? I mean, why would a guy bother to get married? I'm asking this seriously, why would a guy get married (he actively pursued me and proposed after a year, making it very clear after 6 months he'd be asking me to marry him) of he doesn't need a companion? He wanted this marriage and family very much.

Is this all just obvious IB?

It seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse with all the what if scenarios if you haven't ruled out an affair definitely.

Unless I am misunderstanding and you are saying you already ruled one out? If that's the case then what did you do to rule it out? Pls be specific.

SQ, I can't rule it out but so far nothing. And we've had issues with IB for years so this is nothing new. But now that kids are older and doing more activities that husband is interested in doing with them, that's added to the IB issues a lot over the last 2 yrs.

I'm just wondering if anyone has seen this issue of IB to the extreme in a marriage that MB steps helped a couple change.

For example, we did a different trail today and had a great time, but the last time we did this hike was a year ago, when I was going through the same issues.

And after first son was born, I remember trying to get H to spend time w me on weekends when not working, and he'd go off to do sports w guy friends for 3-4 hours at a time.

When second child was 9 days old he asked to go on a ski trip with the guys. I remember being in tears.

So I'm trying to change old habits here and wondering if UA time and stopping AOs by asking respectfully on my part can turn this around, or if I will always be hoping for more consideration and attention from my H.

What are you doing to snoop, Kat?

I think this is why Dr Harley was telling you that your H reminds him of someone he worked with who only got worse when asked to address the IB. That's the kind of person you may be dealing with. But it could also mean he's got a SSL and wants privacy - that's why we keep pushing you on the snooping.

i don't want to list specifics...H knows about forum.

But H isn't doubling down on IB. He's no longer doing those things. Now that we are spending more time together, I'm witnessing just how careless he is with my feelings, unless he is making a very concerted effort, like he did when we were dating. Our last date was wonderful. He planned another one tonight after missing last night. He was excited to hike w me today.

See why I'm so confused? I understand that snooping efforts need to increase here though because the wondering is driving me crazy. He's acting like a distracted guy who is not connected w me. Signs of SSL. Like husband not telling me anything about rec class, not even that he was partnered up with my female friend.

I'm afraid it might be due to AOs on my part in reaction to the IB. I told him once I was going to go stay at my parents' house with our baby. A decade later he still tells me how badly that hurt him. What if this is me, and he just doesn't like me anymore? I'm more afraid of that than anything.

He needs to stop bringing that up.

Has he told you he is reading? Does he know you are posting here? Did you tell him your user name?

Just because he gave up his recreational activity doesn't mean he isn't committing IB. The examples you described yesterday as "inconsiderate" behavior IS full of IB.

The one where he was going to take off and leave you at the field to get lunch for him and the kids, not asking your opinion, honestly my ex H (a serial cheater - so I know about IB) had never done anything like that to me and of all the other couples I know, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of anything like that.

It's shockingly bad IB in my opinion.

This is not just "inconsideration" - this is all blatant IB.

It's just as damaging as the yoga, Kat.

IB is IB - it's a huge lovebuster and will be a disaster for this marriage if it doesn't change.

That sounds like gaslighting to me. If you are just dealing with someone with extreme IB, why would this have bothered him then, let alone now?



Therein lies your problem. You are so afraid to know the truth. But the truth is the only thing that will allow you to sort this miserable situation out.

Had you thought about a followup with Dr Harley?

No. When I told him about MB he asked if it was a forum. So he's aware there is one but doesn't know I've posted here. He doesn't read here either. He did read the articles I sent from the site.

I agree and I appreciate the validation. This forum has been incredibly helpful in realizing that I need to tell him this has to stop if our marriage is going to succeed. Not using AOs has made a difference. But in the past I've used AOs and it has driven us apart. I'm learning here how important it is to address these issues without AOs.

Ok. Now I know why I've been so upset over the years. It is a huge LB for me- but my AOs in response have been LBs for him.

I very much agree.

You're right. And yes I've thought about MB sessions with my husband.

So far, when I address IB and ENs without resorting to AOs, he listens and does what I ask. But as you can see, there are just so many instances that he isn't aware of that bother me, so I need help addressing those without getting mad.

At some point I'd like to get a session with MB with him. Not sure if time is now- we are both taking a lot in learning MB.

Our date last night and daytime rec together was wonderful. I know that my husband can meet my ENs when he sets out to do it. It's the other times when he's intensely focused on sports coaching/son, work, social groups that he is forgetting or not thinking of me.

I need to figure out how to address that. We had a great talk for hours over dinner and afterward about MB. He said he knows he has a problem letting whatever he's immersed in consume him, and in the car on way to meet team he was trying to go over all the parents names and figure out how to address the situation (they had a poor season and he was a coach). He admits he takes everything too seriously at times.

I think this is just his character. He talks to himself a lot, replaying social situations.

He told me I've always been the most important and best part of our life together. He said he just thought we could get through the stress and time commitment of raising the kids for next few years then get back to focusing on each other. He knows that I need my ENs met now and he said he wants to, and he loves spending this time w me. He came up with another rec activity he asked me to do w him, and he had a plan for getting the right set-up for me so it wouldn't be difficult for me to carry.

He told me he's so glad I found MB.

He was more relaxed, happy, and affectionate w me yesterday than ever.

I think a lot of this comes down to my not using AOs to address the IB problem.

You will get free help from Dr Harley if you just keep sending emails updating your situation, or asking further questions like the ones you asked above.

Dr Harley gives loads of free advice, to people who have been on the radio show, and to people who haven't, who just email him. You just need to ask for his help, and he will give it.

I'd really like to see you send those 3 scenarios you wrote about above to him. I think you answered your own question about no.1, when you said you should just have declined the after-sport dinner, but I'd like to hear Dr Harley convince you of that.

You made an agreement to go out with your H. That was more important than hanging out with these sports parents, which would have done nothing for your fragile marriage. You must have already had babysitting arranged with your older son. All you had to do was decline politely. Your older son would have been angry (and I know what that feels like), but you could have offered him something else in return - or not.

The point is that your marriage, and the date you made in advance, is more important than your son's impromptu extra event, which was over and above the dinner you attended the evening before, and the actual tournament (or whatever it was) that you were attending at that moment.

The point is that your marriage has always taken a back seat to your kids' activities and social lives, and that has always been wrong (it is like that in many marriages - it certainly was in mine) and it needs to stop TODAY. You might have to enforce this idea with your son as much as with your husband. Your son might have to give up the activity, or find a way of getting lifts from other parents to get there and back, but he must learn today that the "soccer dad" lifestyle (I know it's not soccer) is OVER in your family, as of right now.

But please do write to Dr Harley. He is incredibly generous with his time and advice.

SC, I did not realize that I could email those scenarios and get direct help from Dr. H. Thank you so much! I'll do as you suggest. For some reason, I thought "follow up" meant letting them know how things were going later down the road.

Your post is encouraging. We can definitely take those steps you outlined. In fact, son would have likely been ok with a private discussion about how we'd just had a major team dinner/event the evening before and the promise of us bringing home ice cream after our date (we do this often).

It's not soccer but it is very similar. And it's tough when everyone else goes along with this stuff, even other moms when kids all decide they want subway in between games. I'm swimming upstream at these events.

Thanks for showing me some ways to change these habits with my husband, instead of just going along with it and feeling upset.

It does mean that, as well! But when Dr Harley tells callers (or emailers) to follow up with him, he is telling them to update him and ask further questions.

This is a serious problem for you.

I will say that although the issue of snooping is important and you should always do this, especially with your husband's rampant independent behaviour (an affair cannot take place without IB; indeed, an affair is the very definition of IB), I think that discussion of this is in danger of taking this thread off track. It should not become the primary focus of the thread until there is evidence of an affair.

The primary focus needs to be your (quiet, polite, dogged) insistence that your marriage must change, and that your entire recreational activities need to be arranged between your husband and you, not between your husband and the children. You need to keep in mind the "When to call it quits" advice. You do not argue with your husband, or tolerate his sulking about your high standards. You tell him how your marriage needs to change, you say "no" to all activities that take away from your pre-agreed UA time, and you ask him to leave when he does not accept your demands - as indeed, they are demands.

I too have a H who was prone to a lot of IB. It took me some time to realize that I played a role in that with my own sacrificing. It is not uncommon for that imbalance of the giver and taker in a relationship to happen. I wanted to be the good wife who did not stand in the way of him enjoying life by doing what he wanted to do, even if I was not really enthusiastic about it. MB has taught me not to sacrifice.

It is important for him to change his IB, however if you are sacrificing at all it is important for you to stop. For instance, if the team was going out for dinner and you were not enthusiastic about going, do not agree to go. Say you are not enthusiastic about it. Of course he could still just run over your feelings and agree to go anyway, but it does not seem that he is in the habit of doing that.

You being O&H about your feelings and not sacrificing will be a huge key in changing his IB ways.

For instance, how did you handle these situations? When your H wanted to go do sports with his guy friends, did you say no, I am not enthusiastic about that? And did he just walk out the door anyway? Or did you reluctantly agree for him to go? When your H wanted to go on a ski trip, did you say no you did not want him to go? Or did you reluctantly agree and then hold on to resentment that he actually did go?

Dr Harley has some great articles about sacrificing.

I will say that although the issue of snooping is important and you should always do this, especially with your husband's rampant independent behaviour (an affair cannot take place without IB; indeed, an affair is the very definition of IB), I think that discussion of this is in danger of taking this thread off track. It should not become the primary focus of the thread until there is evidence of an affair.

[/quote] The primary focus needs to be your (quiet, polite, dogged) insistence that your marriage must change, and that your entire recreational activities need to be arranged between your husband and you, not between your husband and the children. You need to keep in mind the "When to call it quits" advice. You do not argue with your husband, or tolerate his sulking about your high standards. You tell him how your marriage needs to change, you say "no" to all activities that take away from your pre-agreed UA time, and you ask him to leave when he does not accept your demands - as indeed, they are demands.

[/quote]

Thanks for this. This is the step I'm focusing on though I am also continuing to snoop. I agree with MB that transparency is important in every marriage, and I feel very hurt when I don't know who my husband is talking to throughout his day. Now that he is no longer going to rec class, I feel much better but the IB needs to change throughout for us to have successful marriage.

I will continue to be polite, quiet, and dogged in my approach. So far, this approach is definitely the right way to end the IB, when the issue is clearly addressed. I do want Dr. H's advice on how to handle the many other times it comes up when not specifically addressed though.

Husband does not sulk, thankfully. I thought he would, but he isn't. He's been texting me before and after every rec time with me to tell me how much he enjoyed that time with me. Not one word about missing his class or community. I presented it to him like it is my obligation (thanks Prisca) to ask him to stop IB that is a threat to our marriage. This resonated with him and he does understand, though he does not agree that he did anything wrong. Prisca and Markos helped me see that he does not need to agree- he only needs to stop the IB.

My work is to not argue or tolerate any arguing from him.

When I insist that IB must change and will no longer be accepted by me, these are demands, that's what you're saying, correct?

Also wanted to note that putting our children first is something he witnessed growing up. I know MB does not focus on childhood, but I thought it was interesting that my husband mentioned over dinner how he works hard to give our children more than we had growing up. He mentioned how his parents scraped every penny together to send him and his sister to private school so they wouldn't be bussed an hour away to an inner city school during that time (integration policies in public school).

Many people tell me how highly they think of my husband for his approach with our children. I've been told how selfless he is and how wonderful a father he is.

And I agree....but pointing this out to say that I do think this is where my work comes in. It's very difficult going against this way of thinking to get husband to put me first, when everyone, including my own family, sees nothing but good in my husband's approach to family.

And he's willing to do it. Yesterday son asked husband to take him and a few friends to a daytime event that would have cut our hike together short. I said no, and husband agreed.

So he is doing it. I just need to always ask politely, quietly, and doggedly. And not argue. This is not natural for me but like Dr. H said, I can never have an AO again if I'm committed. And I am. For the record, I never sounded like the couple on the AO radio clips. I did argue my point though, quite often. No more arguing.

Good questions, and thanks for sharing your experience with a husband with IB. I never thought of myself as a sacrificer because I'd argue when I didn't agree or wasn't enthusiastic. I argued and cried in those instances above. I got the bad advice that in order to have a happy marriage, I needed to let husband have his independence.

Our solution was to hire help, which my husband readily agreed to despite managing our money very carefully. I got upset about trip, even asked why he wanted to have a second child if he would be so quick to leave me on my own with a newborn, and he said he wouldn't go on the trip. I told him to go because I didn't want the resentment, with the agreement that we'd hire extra help.

I should add that by this point, I was exhausted about arguing with him about IB time. I told him I did not want him gone every weekend for 3 or more hours (I never knew how long it would be) to do a rec activity solo or with guy friends and he still didn't stop. In his mind, he worked hard all week to provide for us, and he deserved to enjoy rec time. Since I was caring for a little, I couldn't join.

Yes,. that's what i am saying. I'm pointing out the irony that Dr Harley tells us that there is no place for demands in marriage, but then he goes on to show us that we must demand a happy marriage, or separate. That's what the "Quits" article argues, in effect.

This is a very valid thing for parents to do. I think there is hardly a parent that wouldn't put their child's education at the top of their priorities, or work to give them more than we had. The thing is, we can work and save to send kids to certain schools, we can homeschool like markos and Prisca, we can move house or coach our kids through difficult exams (as many do here in the UK) but none of that means that we cannot have a marriage. You have not had a marriage. "Education" does not have to mean becoming a Dance Mom family - your H becoming a Sport Dad. (I've just started obsessively watching that series. We don't have that lifestyle as a rule in the UK. Yes, maybe if your son is Andy Murray and you are determined to make him a top tennis player, - maybe then you'll drive all over the country and move to Spain, even when your marriage is breaking down - but we don't do that here, if, like mine, your kids do a gymnastics class at the local club once a week. My eyes are wide and I gasp when I see the way Dance Moms and their ilk put their kids' careers above their marriages, above their other kids, and above normal family life.)

I think, from reading the online forum, that what you should aim for is an agreement with your husband that your (his and your) arrangements will be honoured, and that you can refuse your son's requests on your husband's behalf - he will give his agreement in principle that you will decline unexpected requests like this. However, with other requests on your time or goodwill that friends or family might make, your agreement should be that you will not answer on the spot for your husband, but you will speak to him in private, and your joint decision will be communicated later.

I'm not saying you did anything wrong - you did it entirely correctly. I'm just anticipating another scenario that might come up.

Dr. Harley's solution to that is for the husband's enjoyable recreational time to be spent with his wife. There is a universe of possible recreational activities. Something can be found that they both enjoy that fits into their lifestyle. Yes he does work hard and deserves recreation AND IT SHOULD BE WITH HIS WIFE and equally enjoyable to her, and her emotional needs should be met at the same time.

disagreeing is not arguing. You can respectfully disagree, an stand by your choices. The idea is to create a life of thoughtfullness toward one another that makes you both happy. So you dont stop with just disagreement, you work on finding mutually pleasing solutions.

I worry that I wasn't at all clear here. As a reader, I wouldn't understand what I was trying to say!

Your son, or anyone else, asks you to do something.

If it falls within UA time, you say no. You have your husband's agreement to do this without asking him first. Your UA time is non-negotiable (He needs to agree now that this is the case. He really does.)

If the activity is proposed for a time when you did not have UA time booked, you ask your H first before responding, unless you know this is something that neither of you would want to do. You need to discuss the kinds of things that this would cover.

Sugar Cane, thanks for clarifying. I did know what you meant and the scenario you described is exactly how I handled it the second time, but I didn't regarding the dinner. But you're saying I need to clarify with my husband that UA time scheduled will not be negotiated if something comes up (and of course things always come up). Is there a nice way of saying this without sounding more demanding?

Markos, I'm going to say those words to my husband if it comes up again (it didn't this time around). I needed to say that years ago.

Apples, I have found MB to be very helpful in realizing that disagreeing and complaining are both acceptable in a healthy marriage when done without AOs. I know I need to stay consistent with this.

Thanks to you all. I hope I'm not posting too much. It helps keep me on track w learning how to disagree, complain, and hold my marriage to a higher standard without AOs.

Let us know when you hear back from the Harleys.

It was addressed on today's show. It was hard to hear that my husband probably doesn't care for me. Is this what everyone is getting from this behavior? I thought it was an issue of not knowing that IB could be so hurtful.

Hi Kat-

It can be shocking to hear Dr. Harley put it so bluntly. To a certain extent, we all care about ourselves at times, more than we care about the other guy.

This article explains it well Have you read it before?

The Giver and the Taker

Thanks, DQ. I am familiar w that MB concept but didn't recall it in my situation. Now I do feel better reading this again.

My husband gives a lot though, that's where it's so confusing. He gives to the family and the children. He's giving me everything I've asked for since coming here and asking.

Was Dr. H saying that his taker is coming out in just the instances I wrote him about?

Yes. Us. MB is the ONLY thing that helped.



Sorry that I haven't been able to get on lately to answer the question you asked me about listening to MBR. I'm glad that you wrote to Dr. Harley about all of these other scenarios. What he explained today about this being a PROCESS, is so true, especially when POJA and PLANNING have never been practiced.

I would caution you not to take it personally when your husband forgets about you or doesn't take your feelings into account. Don't ignore it either. We all lack empathy for a foreign perspective and that is why the POJA is such an important rule. It requires us to have empathy where none existed.

One example of this is when your husband offered to bring Subway. Maybe he would have loved to hang out for 2 hours at the bb park, just toodling around with all of the other parents. He might have thought that you would enjoy the break from the kids. Maybe he figured that you wouldn't want to eat gluten, but asked anyway. The good thing is that he did call you first. So when he does that, even if he is way off base from your true perspective, try to thank him for thinking of you, and let him know what he CAN do for you.

When we started implementing POJA, it caused some problems with the kids because they weren't used to it. One thing that helped was that we sat them down and told them we were going to do things differently moving forward. We actually explained how good partners always get their heads and plan together, in order to keep the marriage and family strong. That helped us establish new habits, and it shut the kids down when they tried to circumvent one of us. It helps them learn to think ahead instead of throwing things at us last minute. Our kids know when we are having PLANNING mtg etc. Hopefully now it won't be a foreign concept when they grow up and get married.

Recently, one of my kids told me that their friend said: The one thing about your parents is that they are ALWAYS on the same page. How on earth do they know that? Probably because the kids make plans and know which parent will say no. Not here no more. So funny.

And one more thing about POJA. It also gives your husband the chance to respectfully express his perspective as well. There may be positives to his perspective that you would be more likely to consider if he were to talk about it with you before moving forward.

This is just a way that I made sense of my husband showing lack of care for me. It was a combo of his taker coming out, or his lack of understanding my perspective, or not caring.

To a certain extent, we CARE about our spouse because of what they bring to the table for us. So selfish, right? As long as your husband gets what HE wants, then he is good. He doesn't really CONSIDER that the things he is not doing for you are actually causing you real pain. The same things that bother you wouldn't bother him. He doesn't even think about it long enough to care. It is unintentional, and out of instint. That is why the people here are telling you to complain or even separate if necessary to send a clear message to him that his unintentional negligence and IB are seriously hurting you.

DQ, it's encouraging to hear that MB helped the IB stop. I'll do my best to not take it personally when my husband doesn't consider me, while still complaining nicely.

You're right about the Subway incident- he thought he was helping the family out my running the kids to pick up lunch and letting me stay at the field.

We had another similar situation last night. Son asked to go watch another team's game and I told him I'd talk it over w husband. Husband ended up taking him without talking to me about it first. When he got back from dropping son off, I said "I wish you would have talked it over w me first." He said, "Why?" He thought he was helping out by running son to game to be with friends so we could relax together. When he left, I didn't know if he was going to stay at the game too, or if son had dinner.

The ultimate IB is an affair. MB deals with eliminating IB all the time.

My question is, how does your husband react when you complain about his IB?

I find that response of his disturbing. How committed is he to eliminating IB?

In a MB marriage, even one that is trying to recover from IB, all you would need to say is:
"What you did bothered me."
That's all the why he needs. He should be willing to change his behavior simply because it bothers you. No further explanation needed. Is he willing to do that?

Dr. Harley is talking about extraordinary care. Your husband is not showing you any extraordinary care when he does IB. He can't do both at the same time -- it's impossible. They are the exact opposites of each other.

No, he doesn't know IB is hurtful. He probably has no empathy for what you are feeling because it probably wouldn't matter to him if you did IB. He'd probably think it's great if you did that, actually!

This is why MB concentrates on actions, not feelings. It doesn't matter if he feels empathy as long as he is willing to stop doing what hurts you. It doesn't matter if he feels care as long as he takes actions to care for you.

A big saying around here is: "Feelings follow actions!"

The feelings of care will follow once he starts taking consistent actions that show care. He will come to care for you.

What Dr, Harley is seeing at this point is that your husband is making some effort. You may get to a point where his effort is not enough, or he may give up and stop trying, at which point you will have a choice to make. But, right now, he's making an effort.

Yes, he's willing to, but he made a "huh" response in irritation, so I think it irritates him though he doesn't argue. Then, we went on to have a nice evening. And I know that he came home in a great mood and was met with a quiet, unsmiling wife. I said hi, then added that I wished he would have talked over taking son w me.

To summarize: Here at MB, care is a verb. It is an action that your husband has not been doing.

Yes, he's making an effort, Thanks for pointing this out, Prisca.

I feel terrible when asking him to not do something that he had no idea would bother me. It changes the mood and our connectedness. I feel like I'll need to tell him something bothers me a lot. Do I just keep doing it, regardless of how it effects his feelings towards me?

I do not see the willingness if he is acting irritated because you let him know what he is doing bothers you.

He's going to need to step up his game.

I agree, and that's why I'm here. But he definitely doesn't see it that way. He takes care of a lot of errands, chores, issues that he could easily pass on to me but I'm glad he doesn't.
In his mind, he shows me more care than most husbands. For example, that water damage? He's handling every aspect and it ended up being a big deal (insurance, construction, etc.).

I guess my point is, I know it's not a good idea to wait on implementing MB steps. But to him, bringing up IB for taking son to game without talking to me first is so minor, that he asked why I was focusing on such a minor thing? I replied that communication is pretty important to me. Criticism to him.

Over our coffee date this morning, more long stares out window. Prisca, I honestly don't know if I should say something during these times or not. There is always something to say, and he will always see it as criticism.

YES! Continue to tell him what bothers you! You don't do your marriage, or HIM, any favors by keeping silent and suffering.

He needs to know what is bothering you if he is going to make any changes. It'll be up to him to make those changes, and it'll be up to him to be irritated or not. But you need to give him the information. That is an essential part of marriage. It is very important that wives complain to their husbands -- Joyce complains to Dr. Harley all the time! I still complain to markos.

Just be respectful about it. The best way to phrase it is
"It bothers me when you ..."
"It bothers me that you did ..."

The problem is that to have a good marriage, care needs to be expressed in ways that make large love bank deposits. An example Dr. Harley gives is that when he and Joyce got married, Joyce was going to a lot of trouble to iron Dr. Harley's clothes. But that really didn't make large love bank deposits - it didn't mean much to Dr. Harley. After he communicated this, Joyce quit spending time ironing and the paid for dry cleaning or found some other alternative. Dr. Harley's position is that there's no sense doing something that costs a husband or wife a lot and provides only very little reward.


Is he still reviewing the friends and enemies of good conversation every day?

It is important for him to refrain from expressing his opinion of the value of whatever things you complain about. Value judgments are disrespectful. It may be a minor thing to him, but what is important is that a love bank withdrawal is being made and if the two of you are going to be in love the love busters need to be eliminated.

Him calling it a "minor thing" is a disrespectful judgement on his part.

The best response to that is "It just bothers me." Don't debate him on it. Don't even try to explain WHY it bothers you. Just stick with "It just bothers me." He can't debate what you feel.

Dr. Harley touched on this during your show. UA is going to be awkward at first. Markos and I struggled with UA a lot because of this ... I actually hated our dates because I didn't want to be around him. But, as Dr. Harley said in your show, you got to start somewhere. The goal is for it to become the most enjoyable time of your week. Try to make it the most enjoyable.

You can try to make pleasant conversation with him during UA when he is being silent, but don't complain to him about his silence AT THAT POINT. Save your complaint for later, after UA.

"Honey, it bothers me that when we go out on a date we sit in silence. I would really love to talk more. What are some things you like to talk about?"

Dr. Harley does say that a complaint is actually a small lovebank withdrawal. When your lovebanks are love, it's going to feel like a huge hit. It won't always feel that way, once your lovebanks are fuller. But even Dr. Harley feels the lovebank withdrawal when Joyce complains. He doesn't classify it as a lovebuster, though, because it is essential in marriage to complain. It is essential so that changes can be made.

Let me tell you, markos has complained to me about things that in my mind are petty. A part of me wants to respond with "Why in the world would that bother you? Is there something wrong with you?" But I don't. Why? Because I know that to him, it's a huge thing. It's his lovebank that has taken the withdrawal, not mine. And if I want our marriage to remain good and healthy, then I need to take care and make sure I keep my balance in his lovebank FULL. So, even though I can't for the life of me see what the problem is, I stop doing the thing that is bothering him.

I was the queen at IB and Disrespectful Judgements, so that took a lot of work on my part to get to that point. But it had to be done, or our marriage would not have made it.

Even today, I rarely see what the problem is when markos complains. But I don't have to understand. I just have to stop.

Thanks, Prisca. You actually just made me laugh- I'm sure my husband wanted to ask me if there's something wrong with me for not wanting him to drive our son to a sports game.

I will continue to let him know my complaints but NOT during UA time. I'm so glad you clarified this. I knew not to bring up relationship stuff during UA time, but today I was sitting there racking my brain to come up with an engaging topics of conversation while he's turned totally away from me, staring out the window. I find it really annoying and it's hard not to wave my arms in the air and call out "over here!"

Markos, great illustration about Joyce and the ironing. Thank you. Not really sure how to address that though...do I say, thanks but all those calls you made today to help with the house really don't matter to me as much as meeting my ENs? The thing is, they DO matter to me. I really appreciate it.

At some point, is there a such thing as too many needs, according to MB? I need financial support, help dealing with construction/insurance people, and help with the kids, and to have my ENs met. I hope this isn't a case of too much.

I highly doubt that H is reading the friends of good conversation daily. He read it once, applied it very well on our dates, and now that it's midweek he's back to not engaging in IC.

Prisca, I'll say that to him, that sounds very nice and not like a complaint so much as a way to brainstorm together.

If my complains seem to irritate him so much, does that mean his lovebank is low? How do I fix that when he tells me to just keep doing what I'm doing? I know my AOs in the past have made significant withdrawls for him. Now I think he takes the complaints as withdrawals.

Have you read this?
Ouch! No, no, Let me explain. (By Steve Harley)

DQ, I've never read that! That means my husband's Taker is out...so I need to continue filling his lovebank so his Giver comes out instead? I'm trying by no longer getting mad at him, being very sweet instead of resentful now that he's no longer going to that rec class, but I do know that my complaints cause withdrawals...

My husband put a splitter onto the phone. It had a dual benefit- he started walking at my pace or the cord would pop.

Another idea is to listen in the car on a road trip. Kids watch a movie and we listen to MBR with a splitter. But remember with all of this MB stuff, that he needs to see how it benefits HIM in order to be motivated. Shows about the Giver and the Taker were especially helpful in the beginning.

As for cutting into UA time? It could have, but we did it during the lunch hour. During that time we could stop the show and talk about what was said. Sometimes it was emotional. This was a problem and not UA so through trial and error we scheduled UA at night and on the weekends, with problem solving and MBR during lunch. We also scheduled 20 hours of UA in order to get 15. Fine tuning UA is key.

I don't see how you are getting that from the Steve Harley "Ouch" article DQ posted.

I'm clearly not getting something here- sorry! And thanks for being patient with me.

Article's point:
that it was his elbow that caused the pain, demonstrate care by attending to the wound, and, even though she knows that he wouldn't do such a thing intentionally, he still needs to apologize for the pain he caused. Ideally, he would also let her know what he is going to do differently in the future in order to prevent this from happening again (future protection).

Sounds like overkill? Hmm... If you think so, then your Taker must be reading this.

My husband is the one who might think it is overkill to protect me from emotional pain, even if it's not intentional, is what I got from this. And if he does, it's because his Taker is out.

Ignore the last sentence of the article about the Taker and tell us what the article means for your husband - what does he need to do differently?

Don't just answer the question.

That's an easy one for me, not so much for him. He needs to stop minimizing the emotional pain he causes when he doesn't consider me. And if I complain, he needs to address the issue, even if it isn't the most pleasant thing in the world at the time.

Thank you- I was feeling very guilty for ruining the start of a nice night together. I kept trying to go out of my way to compensate for the irritation I felt I caused by bringing it up. It was exhausting and it made me realize how the old habits continued for so long because it was simply easier to silently feel upset and not have to deal with his reactions if I complained.

Meaning he should be reading it every day until it becomes a habit. I loved how Prisca suggested I bring it up nicely and not during UA time, but are you saying it would help to resend the article to him daily (text) until it is no longer an issue?

And thank you guys very much. I feel like I should have the MB forum on retainer.

I keep feeling very relieved when I post here and get replies. For our entire marriage following kids, I thought I was being unreasonable for complaining about the IB.

Sorry Kat, I should have been more clear.
I shared the article because it relates to this topic in general. It supports Prisca's post about stopping something even when we don't see why it would be bothersome. It also explains how not to punish our spouse for being thoughtless and how to correctly respond to a complaint.

The "Taker" sentence is not the most important part of the article, but I will attempt to explain. Think of his "Taker" as the subconscious, self-preserving side of him that wants to be on autopilot and doesn't want to hassle with something that is "no skin of his back".
It's his instinct to ignore your feelings because paying attention would take effort. THAT is most likely what Dr. Harley meant about him possibly not caring.

It is not your job to fill his love bank so that he overrides his Taker and pays attention to your feelings and preferences. It is both of your marital job to be sensitive to each others' complaints. Nothing less should be satisfactory. It is part of our marriage vows to honor and cherish each other.

Your husband just needs to learn the skill of respecting your feelings and properly addressing your complaints. Learning how to do that takes practice for many people.

Like Dr. Harley said, it is a process.

I see, and no worries, I probably should have gotten that from reading it. I try not to punish him, but when something is bothering me it does put me in a bad mood, like Joyce talked about on the radio program today. Is this punishing him?

As for responding differently, do I say that in the moment, or send him the article, or ask that he show more care, even when the pain he caused is unintentional?

Ah, ok, got it. I really wish he were here on MB.

I was expecting to see him reading it daily - that was my original suggestion and I don't understand why he's not doing it. I also don't understand why you would send it to him daily. My thinking was he would be the one to be doing this, not you. Don't try to do the work for him.

I sent him the article and he read and applied it, but I didn't ask him to read it every day. I'm not sure how to ask him to re-read it daily without offending him.

"It would mean a lot to me if you would read this daily."

Perfect! Prisca, I started a notes file filled with your recommendations of ways to say things nicely to my husband. I have a hard time knowing what to say in the moment.

I had a chance last night to say "Honey, it bothers me when we sit in silence during our undivided attention time together. Is there any topic you'd enjoy talking about with me?"
It went really well! At first, he gave me the old spiel about how he doesn't always need to be talking, that just sitting together is fine, etc. But I stayed calm and "light", and suggested we read the Friends of Conversation article and we started laughing together about "investigating" each other (in a nice way), and he opened up a lot. He said he's trying to be a better conversationalist and he knows I'm trying too.

This morning our coffee date was filled with great conversation. He just texted me that he can't wait to hike w me at lunchtime.

I'm feeling very much in love with my husband.

I also know that he will likely need reminders, and I need to react calmly when things come up. Prisca, how long does it take for these new habits to take hold, to get to the point where we don't have to think so hard to do them? I know your history of IB and Marko's AOs.

I agree. Even with nothing of great insight being said or shared (it would be impossible to make every second productive, as much as we may like too), there is no reason it can't at least be positive. Well stated.

When we started the program, our coach told me "3-4 months."
Our problem is that we both had a hard time quitting the lovebusters. We continued to fight. Then there was an affair. Then his AOs got worse. So we were a hard case
But, if both of you follow the program completely (meaning you give up lovebusters completely and you meet each others emotional needs and are going on 15 hours worth of dates), you'll be in love in 3-4 months and all these rules you're having to force yourself to follow right now will be habit.

Thanks, Prisca! It sounds easy to stop LB'ing, but I know it will require effort, especially as I bring up complaints. But already we are spending more time together and making progress in meeting ENs. And we are checking in with each other before making decisions regarding the kids. That has been missing for a while so addressing the recent issue last week ended up changing that dynamic already.

Would love help with a parenting issue related to husband's IB that just came up.

12yr old son disrespectful to me this afternoon. Violated a house rule, then swore at me when I told him it was not ok and there'd be a consequence.

Husband had a special date he planned for me to celebrate something. Son had texted him asking to go to an event w friends. I told husband what happened w son and that I don't think he should be able to go to this event (which I never agreed to in the first place). Husband disagreed- he'd already planned a ride home for our son, told me not to worry about it, it was all handled and he wanted me to have a nice time getting ready before our date. He was about to leave to take 12yr old and drop off at event, then pick up our other son for me so I could relax and get ready.

Husband was trying to be nice to me. But I strongly felt 12 yr old should not go after hs behavior, so I said so. Husband said it was best for him to go. He sad he's already talked w son about his behavior and so did I.

We discussed it more and he took him without my agreement. I tried to point out that this decision directly affects me too because son now thinks it's ok to be disrespectful to me, and husband said I was getting "worked up." That I should go back to getting ready and let him handle.

I'm not sure how to handle these situations without arguing my point.

If I stopped talking, husband would leave to take son (which is how it ended).

And this argument now leaves husband feeling like nice things he did (pick up other son, usually my job, plan special night out, surprise me at lunch w flowers and gift) is all undone.

If I did that today in 2016 I would expect to come home and find the locks changed.

If I did that in 2010 I would expect to come home and find Prisca not speaking to me.

Our marriage is much better in 2016 than it was in 2010, and this is why.

Your husband broke the Policy of Joint Agreement. Since you were no longer enthusiastic about your son going, neither one of you should have done anything to aid him in going.

Your husband is still willing to break the rules whenever it suits him. It is no wonder that your son doesn't respect you -- his dad doesn't respect you either!

You need to tell your husband that this is unacceptable, and you are unwilling to live this way. He must be willing to stop whatever he is planning the moment you say you are unenthusiastic about it.

Kat have you concidered doing the online program, where you have an accountability coach and work directly with Dr Harley? I would highly recommend it.

Your husband is making the grand mistake of showing you love in the way that HE FEELS you need to be shown love, while simultaneously ignoring your requests for POJA and committing LB's. This is not going to achieve the results of having a happy marriage.

Perhaps if you work with an accountability coach you will have an opportunity for him to learn how to better use this program to create a great marriage, by implementing the POJA and stop the lovebusting. And it won't be your job to educate him on how to do this.

This is not your H trying to be nice to you, it is your H blatantly making decisions against your will. I'm not sure how it is nice when you are stating very clearly you do NOT agree, and he just does it anyway. The fact that he believes it is 'best for him to go' is his own perspective, he is completely disregarding your perspective.

This is a DJ and is very disrespectful.

And I just wanted to point out the LBing and disrespect, because the bottom line is, these things ARE all undone if he continues disregarding your feelings and lovebusting like this.

If you have a love 'bucket,' and every time he is does something nice for you it puts one or more love units in that bucket, think of the lovebusting and lack of care as a big hole in the bottom. No matter how many units he puts in, if he does not patch up that big hole it will not make you happy or in love with him. He needs to patch up that hole.

Once again, thanks for validating that this is an issue and one I need to address with my husband.

Unwritten, thanks for recommending the online course, so I'm not having to educate my husband on these issues. This is my biggest challenge- my husband doesn't know how this is an LB, or even disrespectful. He thinks he's helping and taking charge for the benefit of our family, and I've gone along with that for years, except when the children were babies (he deferred to me at that stage with parenting). He also defers to me regarding their education.

I think this is our habit (I'm admittedly pretty passive, except when I'm not and then it causes arguments).

Anyways, thanks for helping me understand that the arguments are not because of the way I'm handling things- it's because he's not respecting my feelings on how to parent our son.

This is what I was referring to earlier when I talked about sacrificing.

Being passive is another way to say you sacrificed, just letting him have his way to keep the peace. This also has to change.

Sorry, Kat, but I really disagree.

I think your H is manipulative and makes the situation so that he gets his way but tries to make it seem he's doing things to your benefit or puts you in a difficult situation with your children.

I think he knows darn well exactly what he is doing.

Has your H agreed to stop the IB? I think this was asked before but I can't remember the answer.

Any time you don't enthusiastically agree and he goes ahead and does what he wants anyway, it's an iB. Does he understand this?

These concepts are not rocket science. Don't let him make it more complicated than it is.

Susie Q, he's agreed to stop doing IB, but things like this come up and I don't know if he sees it as IB or not. He's told me in the past that I am too controlling with our 12 yr old and that I was disregarding his input regarding parenting.

When you say manipulative, I get what you mean, that he wants his way. But you're also saying that he's trying to put me in a difficult situation with the kids? I don't see this, but I've been so confused when these issues come up that I may be missing something.

My husband sees me as very emotional and himself as very calm, when faced with challenges, especially parenting. I think this is a case of what Dr. H described, that he doesn't know yet that the two of us can make better decisions together than one of us alone. And it will make his life better. My husband is willing to sacrifice for the sake of the kids- he just doesn't see how much this hurts us. Getting "his" way in this recent situation meant going out of his way to do extra work after work so our 12 yr old wouldn't miss out, and setting us up for more issues down the road since son was able to go even after being disrespectful to me.

12yr old son disrespectful to me this afternoon. Violated a house rule, then swore at me when I told him it was not ok and there'd be a consequence.

.....

Husband was trying to be nice to me. But I strongly felt 12 yr old should not go after hs behavior, so I said so. Husband said it was best for him to go. He sad he's already talked w son about his behavior and so did I.

We discussed it more and he took him without my agreement. I tried to point out that this decision directly affects me too because son now thinks it's ok to be disrespectful to me, and husband said I was getting "worked up." That I should go back to getting ready and let him handle.

Kat, I've been following your story, and wanted to jump in here with a comment. You have a very serious problem here. Your marriage is on fire while your husband is pouring gas on your kids. Yes, that serious. It will bring you unspeakable heart ache in the future.

If you have a 12 year old son SWEARING at you, multiply that by 10x worse per year until he leaves the home, ENABLED and ENCOURAGED by your husband. Your husband is alienating your son right under your nose.

Yet your husband sets himself up as the nice guy and you as the bat crazy witch which the two of them, going in together, can entirely discount and disrespect - him and the son against you.

The kid always goes for the parent that's "on their side".

This deed right there would cause me to lock my husband out of the house until he stops belittling you to the children. I can't overstate the intense, heart wrenching pain this will cause you.

Dr. Harley advises a wife "plan A" her husband for only a short duration before her health breaks down. An unruly kid to this degree is multiples of the heartache a mean husband is.

Read up on parental alienation and how horrible that becomes for the alienated parent. THAT is your path and you not just at the verge, but well on your way down it.

The action he took, countermanding you over the swearing son, is despicable. Don't stand for it.

This instance of IB is not just "hurtful" and annoying - it's destroying you, and unfortunately, your son. Don't stand for it. Make it very clear that your H needs to let your son know H was WRONG and have your H impose a punishment 2x or 3x stronger than the degree that you were about to impose.

This type of situation alone is enough to consider immediate separation until your H will stop alienating your son. You urgently need to be able to parent your son without an H countermanding you because if this continues very much further at all, you will lose all hope of an un-alienated relationship with your son.

Stay strong. Insist on no parenting IB whatsoever, ESPECIALLY in your deteriorated circumstance. If that is not acceptable to your H, SEPARATE for the good of your children. It is far more destructive for the child to provide this type of two parent home than to separate.

Sunny times, I'm listening and thanks for the honest post. I'll read up on the term alienated parent- and what you've described is what my instincts have been telling me. Son directs disrespect and anger towards me, husband says it's because I've been too controlling with him. We've been going to therapy and the approach used is "connection parenting," where parents work to be on the same side as the child, that his disrespect and anger is a way to protect his feelings.

However, I believe our son responds very well to boundaries. He needs to know what the rules are and who will enforce them. So far, that has been me. Husband disagrees, says talking is a form of discipline (for some kids, I admit this works, just not with ours), and we don't need to resort to consequences and punishment.

The problem is, there is a lot of support for my husband's approach. It worked for him as a child, and our therapist referred us to The Whole Brain Child (ironically co-authored by a close friend of mine) and the recent research supports his approach. So I hate to blame him or say he's wrong.

Bottom line- we need more help. There's a lot going on here that I hoped we could solve on our own, but now I'm thinking the issues are deeper than I thought and we need more help.

I would suggest the following:

"DH, I love you and want our marriage to be wonderful. I am willing to do everything in my control to make it so, and am eager to our future together.

However, it is very damaging to my relationship with the children for you to openly side with them against me, and to reinforce to DS12 that he can swear at me, receive your backing and get his way.

So that I can be the mother that he needs me to be, I'm asking if you would be willing to circle back to DS12, letting him know after further reflection you harmed him by reinforcing that he could swear at his mother, and to remedy the situation, you are imposing [fill in the blank] consequence to help him remember to never do this again. Should it happen again in the future, the consequence will be immediate and even more severe."

If husband is unwilling to do this (leaving ALL mention of your request out of his dialog with the son), then your next move would be to say something along the lines of:

"I'm sorry that our marriage cannot continue on until you stop alienating the children from me."

And, I'd have his bags out on the driveway with the locks changed when he comes home from work that day, along with a note as follows:

"DH, I regret that we are unable to parent together due to your decision to alienate the children from their mother. If you are willing to reconsider, I'd love to continue building our marriage again. Until then, please notify me of which days you would like to have the children once you are settled in a new residence."

This is from a person who was SO AFRAID to separate. The MB regulars can confirm that, unfortunately. It would have been the best thing to do in retrospect, but I didn't dare to do it. I wish I had. I hope you do.

How's that working out for him? Ha! A 12 year old who swears at his mother.

My children would NEVER think to swear at me when they were 12. EVER!! When they were 12 they were under control and still very sweet. Nor would they think to swear at me when they were 18.

However, did I ever have my hands full by the time they were mid-teens. I cannot even imagine the mess you are headed for. And with him cheering them on against you. It's a cluster of train wreck pile ups heading your way, and you will be the target. Sadly, the mutual target based on this incident.

It's important to POJA the house rules that will be enforced, but you and your H need to back each other up to the kids.

Kids are master manipulates and very smart. They want their way. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." In their immaturity, they think that exploiting the division gets them their way and they don't see how destructive that will ultimately be.

Oh, pulEEeeeeaze!

As a mother of many children, not a single child of mine would have responded to this in any other way than demanding more and more of the rule of the household.

This is training up a few raging narcissists, as you are experiencing.

It is not doing them any favors at all, but instead is damaging them.

Sunny times, I agree. And our son needs clear rules/consequences. I'm copying your script above and will use it the next time. Because we had a great date following the incident and husband did talk to son already, and I didn't yet read advice here, I'm going to use it the next time, which sadly, will not be long I'm sure.

And at age 12 I did not treat my parents the way our son treats me either.

Glad you see it that way and recognize the problem.

I'd suggest not letting it rest until next time, but to circle back now and have him address it.

Waiting until next time just kicks the can you are dreading to touch down the road, and then the circumstances won't be quite the same so you'll be second guessing yourself whether this really is the "next time", and you'll allow the problem that much more time to perpetuate and entrench.

I was in a similar "next time" rut in my marriage, one that rolled along for at least 10 years. "Next time" he threatens to leave..... yet "next time" was a little softer so I let it go. And the next time... and the next, etc. There were over 100 "next times" before my health let me know it couldn't continue.

And the behavior of your DS12 will just continue to harden, if he gets away with this one. Don't let him. What you enable, you promote.

I strongly advise to circle back now and let your H know it was not OK and needs to be fixed so there is NOT a "next time". You don't want a "next time". That's what disciplining kids is to prevent - repeated behavior.

Find your spine NOW so you don't need two of them later.

....


BTW, I'm speaking from experience with a similar situation with just one of my children, although it was not nearly as bad already at 12 years old. It's wrenching, almost every day, now.

The other children were not alienated like that, and my relationship ranges between pretty good and fantastic with them.

If I could go back in time, it would be to take the collusion behind my back with this child far more seriously. Collusion very similar to what you described here, where you lay down a consequence and your H teams up with the child while countermanding it.

Yes!! Your instinct is exactly right. That's because he's a kid. Very typical.

Kids need boundaries so they know you love them.

There is a parallel between raising children and training dogs. You teach the dog boundaries in their behavior so you can all enjoy each other more. With no boundaries, you are always yelling at the dog (ineffectively) and their bad behavior has you in a constant state of aggravation.

Dogs don't listen to your words because they like your words, they listen to your words because you train them with consequences they would prefer to avoid if they don't obey.

Same with kids. Set boundaries so you can all enjoy your time together. You are doing the children a terrible disservice to allow them to terrorize and rule the household so they don't get to experience their realistic role in relationships and enjoy a peaceful home life.

In short, by not enforcing boundaries, you are derpving them of a warm, loving and peaceful childhood experience, their future potential and possibly their marriages since they have been trained to be raging narcissists. That type of character won't get the child very far in life.

He is not too delicate to learn and observe boundaries - rather, he is yearning for them.

Going back to the training parallel, a dog really just wants to be loved and enjoyed. And, while children's needs are not only exactly this simple, yet they do also have this need - children want to be loved and enjoyed. They can receive that best if they understand boundaries.

Obviously, there are many differences how you would raise children vs. train dogs - my post didn't mean to oversimplify that. I was only using the illustration for boundaries.

It doesn't matter if he sees it as Independent Behavior or not. He needs to agree to stop anything that YOU see as Independent Behavior . He needs to agree to stop doing anything that you don't feel enthusiastic about. In other words, he needs to agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. And the reason is: BECAUSE IT HURTS if he doesn't.

The Policy of Joint Agreement doesn't leave room for debate - either you feel reluctant about something, or you feel enthusiastic, and if you feel reluctant, then he needs to not do it.

Stay on him about this.

I am concerned that this discussion may have veered a little bit off track.

Your husband might not feel that your son needs clear rules and consequences.

But even if he does not feel that way, he needs to refrain from taking any action that you are not enthusiastic about BECAUSE IT HURTS. Stay on him about this.

YES. Please take note of Sunny's comment that Dr. Harley does not advise a wife to spend long years trying to win her husband over. It is horrendous for her health.

Fix the marriage by insisting that your husband fix it with you, and then you will be able to fix the child.

And I'll repeat that Prisca would never let me do something like this - I would come home to find the locks changed, and she would get backup help from her family. She'd probably call MelodyLane to come down from the next state up north and rough me up, too...

I'm taking note of what Sunny is saying and what you've said. Thanks for spelling it out very clearly for me- this is where I get tripped up- differing parenting styles, and who's right? It doesn't matter- what matters is that he's deciding for both of us without my agreement.

And it really helps me to know your own wife would not put up with this.

He does not know this hurts me. I need to say "It hurts me when you make parenting decisions without my agreement. Please do not make parenting decisions without my agreement. If we can't agree, we need to not take any action until we come up with a solution."

How to bring up everything coming up with son that he's assuming we will do that I don't agree with? Do I make a list? Send an email? Address it s it comes up? There's so much I don't know where to start.

You need to wipe the schedule clean and start fresh. Sit down and discuss each and every activity and whether or not you are enthusiastic about them. Until you agree, your son does nothing.

This is not a board in which we decide which parent has the right parenting style. This board's purpose is to teach couples to be integrated so that they can figure out their parenting style on their own. Please keep that in mind when posting. Thank you.

This is great, I'll start here. Thanks, Prisca.

Another incident w son today. Husband agrees w me that there will be a consequence. Husband is at work. I sent son into room. He went, though he argued about going.

Husband thinks behavior is due to son's stress about an unrelated issue. He will likely not want to impose a hard consequence. I think son should be grounded from sports practice tonight. Husband will not agree.

Keep brainstorming together, then wait until husband comes home to give him consequence? Or I tell him we both decided on consequence?

Thanks for any help here- this directly affects my marriage and is a major cause of our stress.

You can't make POJA work if your husband won't agree on the principle of POJA in the first place.

You do not think your son should go to the event. Your husband thinks he should go. The default in POJA is that you do nothing while you come to an enthusiastic agreement on the consequence. Your son does not go to the event unless you both enthusiastically agree that he should go.

Will your husband abide by that?

SC if you're talking about the event earlier in the week, no, he did not follow the POJA. I sent him the article on using the POJA in parenting decisions this morning and this afternoon we had another incident w son. I contacted him at work and he agreed to come up w a consequence together for our son, and he agreed he will be the one to deliver this afternoon.

Since we already had plans and agreement for son to go to practice this evening doing nothing means he'd still go in this case, right? What do I do if husband didn't agree son should have a consequence? He did in this case, but initially he wanted to just have a talk w son.

I'm confused on how to handle discipline for son when we don't agree and I don't know how to get husband to see necessity of consistent boundaries without making demands.

No, Kat, I'm talking about the post you just made an hour ago.

The prior agreement has broken down. You want your son to stay away as a punishment, but your H thinks he should go. The POJA default is "do nothing". That does not mean leave the previous agreement in place - that agreement broke down. "Do nothing" means your son must not go while and until you negotiate a new agreement.

Will you husband do that?

NO.

Do nothing literally means DO NOTHING. It means neither one of you leaves to take your son to practice tonight. It means neither one of you calls anybody to pick him up. You do nothing until you are in agreement on what to do.

You will not be able to address this until your husband agrees to live by the POJA, which includes literally doing nothing when you do not agree with what he wants to do.

However, this is an assumption - a DJ on your part. Don't make assumptions.

IF your H does not agree, the default would be "do nothing" - your son stays home - and you negotiate a consequence. If you can be persuaded that a different consequence (or punishment) is equally as, or more effective than, the ban you wanted to impose, then you can agree to it, and your son can go to the event. However, if, despite brainstorming, the two of you cannot reach enthusiastic agreement, then your son does not go; "do nothing".

Got it, thanks SC and Prisca. I asked husband for ideas and he came up w a consequence I agreed to. He will be the one to tell son since I'm now out of the home with our other child. And, I want it to come from husband.

SC, he understands the POJA but it is very new for us. I need to keep on him about it. If I told him that son will not go to practice until we agree on a consequence, he will do it but he absolutely will see that as a demand.

Any suggestions for making it less of a demand? His way of handling our child is to talk with him.

It is not a demand to say "I am not willing to do that." or "I am not enthusiastic about ..."

In order for it to be a demand, you must be forcing your spouse to DO something (for example, our son is going to practice tonight even if you are unhappy about it).

He would not see it as a demand if he understood it and agreed to work with it. he would know from the word go that the minute you said you wanted your son to stay home as a punishment, and he said that he disagreed, he thought x should happen, and you didn't agree with that...

...the minute it became clear that you did not agree with each other, everything would be put on hold until you could find a solution that you both enthusiastically agreed with. He would know that the disagreement meant that son didn't go unless and until you (Kat) enthusiastically agreed that he should go.

You wouldn't be demanding that your son didn't go. Nobody would be demanding anything. Rather, it would be understood by your husband that you "do nothing" while you resolve the disagreement.

I hope you did not make a reluctant agreement in order to keep the peace. Were you enthusiastic about the solution, really?

Ok so in this case I'd say "I'm not ok with son going to his evening activities w the way he behaved this afternoon."

And leave it at that, right? And if husband takes him, I need to plan B. But if husband says "I think he should go to practice so he doesn't let his team down, but here's another option. We can give him this consequence instead."

That's acceptable, right? I'm trying to get this right and I appreciate the help. These situations are highly emotional for me and I feel resentment when husband comes home and cheerfully talks w son after son has been mistreating me and our other child.

Just saw this and honestly, I'd have preferred he stay home as punishment as I see that as sending the clearest message and it's very difficult to ground him otherwise since he's always at practice. Husband came up w next best thing though and son feels it as much when we take his iPhone away.

Husband coaches the team so keeping son home would have been punishing him too. But it would have sent a very clear message to son.

It's acceptable for him to SAY that, but it is NOT acceptable for him to go ahead and DO that, if you disagree with the proposal.

What he says is a proposal - part of the negotiation.

You can accept or reject his proposal, or try to modify it. You can make an entirely different proposal.

He can accept or reject your modification or new proposal, and he can make yet another proposal - and so on. But nobody does anything until there is an enthusiastic agreement between the two of you.

So you were not in enthusiastic agreement, and you capitulated. It was a mistake for you to have done so. This was not POJA at all.

Ok I thought the point of the POJA was to come up w a solution we both like? I could have suggested that son not go tonight, and husband would not have wanted that. Instead, I asked him first and he came up w something I did like, though not as much.

You guys are really making me see just how weak I've been in my marriage and parenting. Thank you!!! After years of being told I'm too demanding, too controlling, too restrictive, too reactive, etc. I'm finally starting to see that this is NOT true.

How I should have handled today:
Me: "Honey, son was disrespectful, and violated house rule this afternoon. I'd like us to come up with a consequence for him."
Husband: "Oh no. I'll talk to him. He's likely stressed about x and not handling well."
Me: "No excuses for his behavior. I'm not ok with just a talk. I'd like us to give him a consequence for yelling at other child and me and disobeying me."
Husband: "Agreed."
Me: "I'm not ok with him going to practice this evening after his behavior."
Husband: "He has a commitment to the team. What if we ground him from his devices instead?"
Me: "I'm not ok with that. I'd like to send a very clear message that we will not support him if he continues to treat his family this way."
Husband: "I disagree."
Me: "Until we find an agreeable solution, son will remain in his room."

Through your comments here, it seems like you are pre-assuming that your H will not agree for your son to miss the practice without giving H the opportunity to comment on that suggestion himself.

As for this:


...for perspective, the kid is 12 and he'd be missing a practice. He's not missing an NBA practice right before the championship game. And even if it was that practice, the marriage still comes first.

Another way to see this might be that your son lets the team down when he yells or swears at you because that causes him to miss practice.

Since you haven't talked to H about this yet, I would not assume that option is off the table in your negotiations. It is an excellent suggestion to start with.

You may want to suggest giving DS12 an alternate activity that he can occupy himself with during the missed practice time slot, such as raking, weeding or scrubbing the garage floor.

Your H is a coach and is used to persuading a child's fuller potential out of themselves. Don't sell him short, before he has a chance, on holding high expectations from your DS12.

Your goal is to negotiate a deterrent (more so than a punishment, right??) to the behavior that your H is also enthusiastic about.

If you are not enthusiastic about an agreement, you always have the prerogative to come back to it to say you are no longer enthusiastic about it, and then brainstorm together for a different solution.

The solution is only mutually enthusiastic while both parties are enthusiastic; otherwise the solution is failing the test.

Did H say this?

If he did not, do you see that this is a DJ on your part to presume your H's feeling of punishment as his reason for avoiding solutions to a problem, before approaching him with the negotiation?

It seems like you needlessly and presumptively restricting your brainstorming together.

Thanks, Sunny. You're right- husband is skilled at encouraging a child's fuller potential. He uses positivity to motivate, which I love. But in the past, husband has made it clear that while he will not challenge me in keeping son home from a practice/game for poor behavior, he does not agree with me. I haven't done it for this reason in 2 years. It makes it hard when he's always got a practice or tournament or local game. I don't support those activities after son has thrown tantrums, violated house rules, etc.

Last year son would yell at me and other child in car while giving him rides to practices. I had to tell both son and husband that I would no longer be giving son rides until that behavior stopped. Husband would then leave work to take son himself and go back to work.

Sometimes you have to use consequences to motivate/deter. Positivity is great as long as it works. It's not working.


That was then. Now it is two years later and that option has not worked out well for you. It is fair to re-open the idea to explore how he might be enthusiastic now.


How has that worked out for him? It is fair to re-open the discussion since the behavior wasn't resolved with that method so you are no longer enthusiastic about that solution.

Kat,

Here's the deal. When you gave your ENTHUSIASTIC agreement to son attending sports practice, it was CONDITIONAL. Conditional upon son's appropriate behavior, right? Expressed or implied. You need to make it clear if you are no longer enthusiastic about his going to practice tonight. That is NOT a punishment. That is a withdrawal of a privilege. Because of your son's bad behavior, you no longer feel good about that privilege.

In addition to staying home from practice, you will need to decide together whether or not to PUNISH him for bad behavior, or better yet, take away another privilege until his disrespect stops.

I would let your husband know that although there may be "reasons" for your son's emotional outbursts, you do not agree to accepting those reasons as an EXCUSE for son's outburst.

If your husband takes him anyway, let him know that it hurts you terribly that he would maintain privileges for a son who treats you disrespectfully. Tell him that it hurts you that he disregarded your feelings and decision that son did not earn the privilege to attend practice. Attending practice is conditional privilege. (Hopefully Dad can help him see that to join him at practice in the future, he should make sure to respect you and cooperate.)

When you make agreements about son in the future, make it clear what your conditions are for being enthusiastic if you can. Even if you didn't make it clear, changing your mind due to unforeseen circumstances or events is still respected under the Policy of Joint Agreement. No moving forward without both spouses feeling GOOD about it.

***EDIT***

Yes, that's what we are doing now. I agree with everything you've said, Sunny. I'll give him the opportunity to brainstorm with me and include ideas that he did not agree with in the past. Thanks for helping me see that I can include those options again.

This whole forum has helped me see that I can keep negotiating the parenting solutions that I want for our son. I don't need to stop and I'm not being too controlling or restrictive by expecting our son to treat his family respectfully

I'm going to stop allowing my husband and son to walk all over me. I'm going to stop being so darn passive and begin upholding boundaries once again.

Thank you for this. I'm copying much of what you said here to refer to in the near future.

Also, you can brainstorm many alternatives. For example, Just because you chose for son to stay home doesnt mean H must stay home too, if you can be enthusiatic about H coaching, etc.

Good question. Not in these words, but yes, I've been told to chill, just relax, let it go, stop trying to make everything hard, in heated situations, though not directly in front of the kids but they have been nearby.

Absolutely, apples. Husband has to go, he's responsible for the other kids on the team.

I think it's important for you to understand that your husband is the one "controlling" the situation when he forces his action even though you don't want to move forward. The POJA is the rule that keeps both parties from controlling each other by "doing it anyway".

Please continue to remind your husband that his moving forward against your wishes is making you feel unsafe and unprotected.

DQ, I've read over your posts here today and you're saying what I'm instinctively feeling but didn't put as well as you did. It is about the privilege of doing fun activities that we try hard to provide for him. Knowing this, and with his behavior so poor, even while getting him to practices or driving him to tournaments, I'm beyond ready to stop all of it until his behavior improves.

And it helps me very much to hear that I'm not the one who's being controlling here.

In this case, today, my husband did not move forward against my wishes, but you must be referring to the event on Monday. I will no longer accept that.

We have let this slide, but I want to reiterate markos's earlier advice that that this situation needs to end. Your husband's involvement in the kids' sports has hurt your marriage, and it is still hurting it today. Your husband needs to give up coaching this team.

This discussion is becoming sidetracked.

Kat does not need to "explore how her husband might be enthusiastic now" to keeping her son at home in those situations. This couple needs to use POJA, which means that if either of them does not enthusiastically agree to a course of action, they do nothing.

I missed this somehow. This is not the travel team, this is a local team. And, he's been great at meeting the 15 hours a week. This is the last week of the season so it's a bit of a moot point. But he will likely want to coach again next year, locally, and while making sure our 15 hours a week of UA is met. This is something we will need to discuss and POJA, right?

* I see, you mean husband's involvement hurting marriage while trying to also POJA parenting son. This is an issue, I didn't think of that.

It sounds to me as if this was not a decision that either was enthusiastic about. What appears to have happened is that Kat refused to drive her son, and her husband, anxious that the son should not miss practice, took the trouble to do it himself. There was no "agreement" as such; rather, Kat's husband acted independently to stop his son and the team feeling let down. Once again he was showing his over-involvement in the kids' sports, and utter lack of consideration for his wife.

As with this latest example, unless they both enthusiastically agreed to a solution that time, they should have done nothing. If Kat's goal was to make her son face consequences for being rude to her - that consequence being for him and his friend to miss the game - then that didn't happen. Kat's wishes were in fact overridden when her husband dropped everything at work to drive the kids himself.

POJA was not being used in that situation (or at all in this marriage), and so we really cannot look back on that as an "agreement" that was made at the time, that now needs to be revisited.

Kat's husband needs to give up coaching and focus on spending much more time with his wife. Even if time isn't the issue with the coaching, it is having a bad effect on the marriage. Things should never have been allowed to get to this level, and the coaching needs to stop.

Kat and her husband need also to discuss whether they want their son to continue playing for the team, and if they do, how he will attend practices. Driving their son to sports a few times a week might also be taking its toll on the marriage, and again, if so it should stop.

True. And POJA also says that husband's activities are conditional as well. His COMMITMENT to YOU TRUMPS ALL OTHER COMMITMENTS.

In my own situation, I became unenthusiastic about my husband's attendance at many events that could have met my need for FC. Too many unilateral decisions were being made. I found myself in competition with the other party or event under all circumstances.

In order to solve this problem, we had to wipe EVERYTHING from our schedule and start clean using POJA. (I remember someone else recommending this to you.) Summer is a great time to do that because school is out and many sports end. I would suggest that you approach your husband with this idea of wiping the slate clean and adding things to the schedule one at a time, after you BOTH feel good about it. If you do this, let us know how he responds to the idea.

Tell him you want him to give it up, and do not agree to his continuing with this. It is harming your marriage, not because off the time it takes, but because of your husband's loyalty to the kids and the team, and his utter disloyalty to the idea of doing nothing without your enthusiastic agreement.

Yes, Prisca said this same thing. It is something we need to do. I'll approach this with my husband. Any suggestions on when to do it? Is this something we can talk about on our next date, in a pleasant way and if it gets heated, shelve it for another time? Also, do I explain why I'm not enthusiastic about certain activities son and husband expect to sign up for?

That's a way to punish you for your viewpoint. Hurting another until a person gets his way is an AO, even if his voice is not raised and angry.

It's likely you quickly acquiesced to avoid the children from hearing more of these comments.

As you can see, they were damaging to your relationship with your DS12 and to his respect for you.

My plan going forward is to directly address these comments (hard for me to spot because he does not raise his voice or seem angry). He hasn't done this in a while. If he tells me I need to relax, I'll reply with "It bothers me when you tell me I need to relax when I'm expressing my point of view."

I'm feeling negatively toward my husband right now and would prefer to be left alone this evening to think and (ironically) relax. I'm feeling stressed by my sons behavior this week and the work ahead to change not only the dynamic w our son but also with my husband.

Is it ok to need time to myself when my husband technically did nothing wrong this afternoon? Do I tell him I just need some time to myself?

Radio Clip of Kat37's e-mail

If I explained the privilege/punishment scenario well, is only because that's how Dr. Harley explains it on his radio show.


One way to look at it is that when you initiate your veto, in a sense, you ARE being controlling. But it is a type of control that is a necessary evil to keep spouses together in the gunny sack of the 3 legged race. If he moves forward before you are ready, you are jerked around. You have to be in sync in a marriage partnership.
If you were in a business partnership and your partner kept ignoring your wishes and doing things you disagreed with, what would you do, Kat?

When your husband says that you are being controlling, try to respond with something like:

"I hear you and I still do not feel good about such and such thing."


He will be disappointed and have some resentment because you changed your mind. That is to be expected. Let him know that you can't wait until son learns to be respectful. I'm guessing that your husband probably has empathy for your son's plight and perspective because he has been a kid/son. But he's never been a mom or wife. Just saying.

Kat, I spent too many years in the same position as you, being "flexible" to avoid the controlling wife/mom label. Being subordinated to the kids was a byproduct of my husband's fear of disappointing the kids, combined with his belief that I "should naturally" put them first in the same way that he did. These problems were literally frying me and I responded very badly after a while which made things way worse.

Please try to stay calm and hold your ground. As we have said before, if he escalates bad behavior then you will need to separate. If you were to go into Plan B or divorce, he would find out very quickly that his opportunity for Kid related activities would diminish due to custody arrangements. It is in his best interest to make YOU his partner and not his kids.

And by the way, make sure you get your UA in. Try to pour on the love bank deposits to offset the resentment he is going to feel from adapting to the POJA.

Can you guys overcome the stress together? Go to the movies or something?

Just as a word of encouragement, you will feel so much better after you execute the plan of action we've all helped you formulate.

While you can certainly relax tonight, don't put it off from dread. One day becomes 2, which becomes a week and then a month and so on.

I was the master of analysis paralysis, and I really wish I had dared to step up to the plan earlier. I developed an arrhythmia which I attribute to hopeless-related stress.

I felt SO much better once I engaged in the action I needed to do. I had a hope that one way or another, change was coming!

I don't understand ... why are you saying he technically did nothing wrong? HE WALKED ALL OVER YOU. He violated one of the most basic rules in marriage.

Kat, he is putting everything before you. He puts sports before you, and he puts your kids before you. This is why your marriage is deteriorating.

Your biggest problem here is not parental alienation. Dr. Harley would tell you that your biggest problem is that your husband doesn't show you basic care -- he does what he wants when he wants, regardless of how you feel. He either needs to start following POJA, or you need to separate.

POJA will solve any "parental alienation" issues that might be going on. BTW, your son sounds like a typical 12 year old boy -- I'm having the same issues with my son and he's about the same age. And we have a GREAT marriage. We talked to Dr. Harley about this, and he has told us that a boy's brain at this age is just not mature enough for him to completely control himself. We're able to handle it, though, because of POJA.

And before you can successfully negotiate any consequences or deterrents for your son, the two of you must first agree to live by the POJA. There is no hope for a negotiation until he agrees and starts living by that policy.

Again, this is not a parenting board. Our purpose is not to teach couples how to parent their children. If you can help this couple learn to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement so that they may come to an agreement on how to parent on their own, then please feel free to continue posting. However, if you cannot offer such advice, please refrain from posting.

Prisca, I understand that he needs to agree to live by the POJA. Please tell me how he walked all over me this afternoon- what am I missing? It's hard for me to see it so your perspective helps me a lot.

He gave son the consequence I agreed to. Son still went to practice w husband but I didn't say i didn't want him to go (I realize I should have).

I am realizing this.

Kat, he is putting everything before you. He puts sports before you, and he puts your kids before you. This is why your marriage is deteriorating.

Your biggest problem here is not parental alienation. Dr. Harley would tell you that your biggest problem is that your husband doesn't show you basic care -- he does what he wants when he wants, regardless of how you feel. He either needs to start following POJA, or you need to separate.

How do I tell him this? Do I just come out and say it or when things come up, keep telling him "it bothers me when.." I'm asking because in the past, I'd wait until I was angry. Now that I'm applying MB, I no longer get angry and I'm trying to stay calm and nice. It is making a difference. He's responding better than ever. But I don't know how to tell him the big stuff, like what Prisca said above to me. I feel like he needs to hear this too.

It doesn't sound you have set aside a regular time each week to discuss complaints. So you just need to tell him as soon as possible.

This is not something you can communicate in a piecemeal, reactive way the next time something bothers you. That will not get your point across. This is a much bigger sort of complaint and it needs to approached as such.

You said earlier that your husband AGREED to follow the POJA but you don't think your husband understands when he is not following it.
Have you read the definition to him?

Wether or not he UNDERSTANDS is out of your control. You can help things by repeating simply and clearly that you do not agree to xyz thing happening. You need XYZ thing to stop. XYZ thing hurts you and you no longer agree to it happening. If you cloud the subject by more discussion, then you are both confused. So be clear simple, and kind. Then change the topic.

If he ignores your feelings by moving forward anyway, then your quiet but serious action SHOWS him that ignoring your feelings is a serious problem for YOU.

If he is disrespectful, if he keeps badgering, is incessant, or bullies you in whatever passive agressive way to get you to change your mind, then your quiet but serious action SHOWS him that it is a serious problem for you.

Have you found a local locksmith? Do you have an emergency fund ready?

You said:

and


You were not in enthusiastic agreement. You accepted a crumb, and your husband got to do what he wanted to do even though you still didn't really like it.

The default is that your son doesn't go. It's not something that you suggest or insist on, it's just the default. If you cannot come up with another alternative that you are both THRILLED about and that you like MORE, then he just doesn't go.

Don't wait until you're angry.

"It bothers me when you make decisions without me."
"It bothers me when you don't take my feelings into account."
"I need you to agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement with me. If you need help understanding it, here is Dr. Harley's email address."

DQ, thanks. So keep addressing each issue with "it bothers me when.." And stay on him. He read the POJA, but no, he doesn't know how to apply it in everyday situations. We are both trying to figure that out. For example, this happened yesterday evening:

Husband and older son went to practice. Husband met me afterward at other child's sports game. Older son not with him. I asked husband where son was. Husband said he was watching a friend's game. I told husband that I wished he would have checked w me first- I wanted him with us at our other child's game.
Husband: Why?
Me: Why do you think? (Not nice, I know, but seriously irritated by this point).
Husband: There's no way I could have texted you to ask you and waited around to hear back. I made the call to let him watch the game with his friends and head straight over to watch this game with you. Sometimes we need to make calls ourselves without checking with the other one.
As annoyed as I was, I actually understand this. I promised my other child that I would concentrate on his game, not look at my phone or get distracted talking to another mom friend on the team, like I have in the past. It's very possible that husband would have been waiting 10 min or more for me to reply to a text.
But I persisted.
Me: It bothers me when you make parenting decisions without talking it over with me first.
Husband: It was not a big deal! It all worked out, and older son walked over to join us anyway.
I walked away once he said it was not a big deal. He asked why I was walking away. I told him his response was bothering me. He replied that the way I was talking was bothering him too but he'd like to have a nice night with me. Can we get dinner with the kids? Where would I like to go?
We get to dinner. PLace is packed. No tables available. I suggest leaving for another spot. Husband says let's try a little longer, but if I want to go we can. I find a small table that seats 2. We have 4. Husband wants to make it work, but I say it's too small. Husband gets irritated. I ask him why he's irritated when the table is obviously too small. He says I'm getting worked up. 12yr old hears and agrees. I take deep breaths. Husband finds a good table. We get dinner, I'm quiet but pleasant. Husband is quiet but pleasant.
Younger child is visibility exhausted, He hit his head hard the day before. I ask if he's alright. 12 yr old says "Of course he's all right! You don't have to ask him if he's ok all the time." Husband says nothing. I'm irritated with husband. I tell son that I have my reasons, which I don't need to explain to him, and he's not to speak to me that way.
We get home, husband tucks kids in bed, and I go take a bath.
Husband comes in and is very sweet to me, very affectionate (not very typical for him).
We actually ended the night on a nice note, meeting ENs for both of us.

But this scenario happens often. Help?

Just bring this up to him at a time when no conflict has occurred? Like send it to him today? Thanks for the script, I'll use this. I especially think the last one could work well in this situation.

And I will stand my ground on suspending any privileges that follow a behavioral issue with our older son. That is what my instinct told me and I'm glad to know it's the right thing to do. Thank you.

DQ: a locksmith would take 5 min to find using Google for our area. As for an emergency fund, I'm on all accounts. We have enough saved to support a separation. But I would ask husband to do MB coaching before that or like Prisca said, reach out to Dr. H. My husband has grumbled about Dr. H in the past, but he seems open to his advice. He's very private though- would not go on the show, I'm sure.

Yes!

If someone told him that they'd give him a million dollars if he could make sure that his wife was in agreement with every single decision he made, no matter how small, what do you think he'd do?

Hi Kat!

This situation was just deplorable.

Yes, you need to write this out right away and email him.

First of all. When a spouse starts Lovebusting (such as not listening to you about wanting permission from both of you) *A simple solution can be no child is allowed to do ANY activity if Mom or dad can not be reached for agreement. End of story.

You could have gone straight home to the do nothing spot until you worked this out. Instead you went to dinner.

This whole dinner was so full of DJ-AO etc. AT that point the thing to do is to leave Kat. You keep just sitting there taking abuse from him, from your son etc.
NO- you don't just sit saying I am bothered and I don't want this over and over while they continue to abuse you!!!! You leave!
Go read Prisca what to do with an angry husband (and saying your getting all worked up and having your son do it to would constitute an AO to me)

Get away.... say I will not eat here and we need to go home now. Do not back down.

Then after all of that... you reward him with needs met. I don't know how you did that after being treated so badly- it would have made me sick.

You are at the point of saying we need to separate or get into the full time counseling now. This can not keep on going.

He'd do it. He'd do it now to protect our foundation that we've built. He doesn't realize that his IB is detiorating that foundation and I don't know how to convey that without threatening him. I didn't even realize it was his IB that was making me so unhappy until finding MB. I just knew that I was hurt and upset a lot of the time and wished things didn't bother me so much.