My husband and I have been married almost 20 years. We are both very stubborn and free spirited. We have a problem with communication and this regularly ends in horrible arguments that make us both sick. Usually, the argument begins over something rather minor, which makes it all the more frustrating.

We recently retired and made a long distance move to a rural area. This has been our life�s dream, and we�re finally here. Achieving that goal took a lot of stress off of us, and we are looking forward to our new life.

Our new home is quite small, and during the winter our tension intensified. We both realize that being enclosed together, in close quarters, with no structure/work schedule, played a big part in the escalating arguments. We talked a lot about that, and about ways to allow each other greater physical and mental space. We are both the type of folks who like to talk, but also find time alone to be necessary. Being in a new place without our friends and family nearby, means we are each other�s primary company.

Years ago, we both read �His Needs, Her Needs� and �Love Busters�, so we are both familiar with Dr. Harley�s concepts, and have used them to help us in the past. The books are somewhere in storage, so I can't get my hands on them right now.

I can tell my husband has recently been reading the forum because of some of the words he uses, and I�ve been glad of it. He also appears to be trying to make changes to consider my point of view, make sure I am enthusiastic when we agree on something, and to rein in some annoying habits that can harm his love bank balance. I've been trying to meet his needs better; being more patient listening to him and making more sex a priority in our life. (I am an extreme multi-tasker, and he has expressed that there is never a time for him to approach me when he is not interrupting something I am doing.)

I am guilty of angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments. I�ve listened to several of the radio shows linked in the forums that deal with anger management, and am trying to do better with this. I lose my temper often when we are trying to discuss problems. I�ve been in this habit for a long time, and while I think I�ve done better at controlling myself lately, I still have a long way to go to master the state that Dr. Harley describes as �not even feeling angry�. Regarding DJ, this is because I have described my husband as passive-aggressive and a bit OCD. He has rightly pointed out that this is offensive to him, because I am labeling him.

My husband and I often misunderstand one another, and his way of dealing with it is to discuss it intensely. We analyze conversations to the point where I wish I had a tape recorder running 24/7 so we could rewind the conversation that started the argument to see what was actually said and what was not said. I think sometimes we think something, and then think we said it aloud, when we didn�t. Or we said something rather vague, and expected the other to have some solid understanding of what was expressed as if it was a decisive, concrete expression. Or we brainstormed on a topic, and one person thinks we came to an agreement, but the other thinks we just talked about ideas and came to no firm conclusion.

In theory, the analysis would be helpful. He wants to discuss the difficulty so we can understand it, and take steps to do better in the future instead of �sweeping it under the rug until it happens next time�, as he says. While these discussions sometimes work out ok, more often, they go on for hours until one or both of us snap and it becomes a screaming match. By then, there is far more damage done than if we had just accepted that we had a misunderstanding and moved on.

Honestly, I get stressed out just thinking that we are going to sit down and discuss something. For me, it�s very unpleasant. I have expressed it to my husband that I feel like I�m sitting down to listen to a lecture. He would disagree with me, but I think he does most of the talking in these discussions. He says he wants me to express myself, but I don�t think he actually hears me. He often interrupts me, mid sentence, to make a point, or ask a question. I have to restart so many times, just to get one idea across. Or the discussion goes off on one his tangents and what I was trying to get to is lost. I find it extremely frustrating because if he would just stop talking and listen to the entire sentence, he might get the answer to his question. He does this because he does not want to forget an important point, or because he wants to ask a question to better understand me. From my point of view, it�s disrespectful and infuriating. I would like him to just listen, make notes if he needs to, and then ask questions or correct a misunderstanding on my part after I have finished expressing myself. We tried the 'talking stick' method years ago, but it didn't help.

Another sticking point we have is expressing how we feel and making the distinction that this is �how I feel� as opposed to �it's your fault I feel this way�. The choice of words is very important here. My husband says I am allowed to express how I feel, but his feelings are not important and he�s not allowed to express them. I disagree. I want him to express himself, but I think he uses words that do not convey ownership of his feelings, but rather convey blame on my part for making him feel the way he feels. He says this is not true, that I am just over sensitive and I always interpret his expressions as blaming. The irony is that we both have similar feelings; he says I make him feel like he is 'a problem', and I feel as if he blames everything on me.

I really love my husband, and I know he really loves me. I agree with discussing things, but I think the overanalyzing is detrimental to our relationship. �Agreeing to disagree� doesn�t seem to be an option. We need to discuss the thing until we can both be on the same page. The trouble is, we seldom end up on the same page, we just end up hurt, exhausted, feeling absolutely sick, and suffering love bank withdrawals.

Is there anyone out there who has overcome this problem? Thank you for any tips on dealing with this.

Most of us who have recovered marriages have overcome these problems.

What you are describing here is a marriage full of lovebusting. It sounds like you are both familiar with lovebusters but have done little to STOP lovebusting each other.

How much UA time do you get? Dr Harley would recommend NOT having long conversations about your relationship on UA time, are you doing this?

I think you know that you need to STOP having AO's and also DJing. There is no excuse for it. If a conversation gets unpleasant, you are an adult and can walk away from it.

Overanalyzing seems to me to be both of your way of trying to change each others perspective. Would you agree that one or both of you have this intent in mind? If not, what is the purpose of overanalyzing, and can you describe one of these conversations to us?

You should not have to discuss things for hours if you are unenthusiastic about doing so. And I wouldn't be either as it sounds very unpleasant!

You should not have to explain your position, or why something bothers you. You can just say 'it bothers me when' without having to discuss and analyze that feeling.

If you say you feel like you are being lectured, and he disagrees with that, he is being disrespectful. You can feel like you are being lectured, that is your perspective.

It is very disrespectful to interrupt somebody!

He is allowed to feel like his feelings are not being expressed. How can you 'disagree' with his perspective on that?

Him telling you that you are oversensitive is a DJ.

These are just a few of the lovebusters I have picked out of your post. I am guessing over the course of a lengthy overanalyzing conversation, there are many many more. I am guessing that conversation itself is a lovebuster to you at this point.

I really think you need to find the book Lovebusters in storage, or order a new one. Until you can get these things under control it will be difficult for you to enjoy your new retirement together.

I think the most effective change you could make would be to negotiate in writing. Do not have face-to-face discussions, because these turn out the way you describe.

On the MB programme with accountability, where a couple is assigned a coach, the coach and Dr Harley often order a couple to use written negotiations only, and they often tell the couple to copy in Dr Harley or the coach to all these written communications. This method allows the coach to identify where the conversation begins to degenerate, and to work with the couple to stop this from happening.

You can try email communication by yourselves, but even better would be for you to sign up for the online course, with a coach. You will get weekly, expert guidance with this problem, which I think has become unmanageable for you.

This is very encouraging to hear!
I think we did years ago, and have been trying again recently. We absolutely need to do better. For my AO problem, we have done better. He used to follow me if I tried to walk away and take a break, which escalated to me leaving the house, he has stopped doing that.
I would say we spend about 50 - 60 hours together broken down into; about 30 hours a week doing outside work (usually working together), 14 hours a week in the evenings watching movies, and maybe 10 hours a week enjoying meals together. We do not usually do many things just for fun, though often our 'work' is fun (gardening/building things, etc.) Sometimes one of us will initiate a hike, which is about the only thing we do together that is purely fun. And we don't do that enough.

I wasn't always able to walk away, but now I can. You're right - now that I can walk away, I need to do it sooner.
The conversation/miscommunication/problem is usually that one of us claims to have communicated something and the other claims it was never said, or it was stated as a 'maybe' or 'thinking out loud', not an actual discussion and enthusiastic agreement. The discussion afterward is usually a dissection of I said this, you heard that, you said this, I heard that, sort of thing. Or it can be a discussion about how I am oversensitive and I shouldn't feel the way I feel.
Thank you for this. I forget that the POJA also applies to this.
I think my husband would disagree on this point. Often if something bugs me, and it's just something minor that I can get over in a moment, I don't say anything, but he notices a fleeting look on my face, and that becomes the topic of discussion until he can get to the bottom of it. He is fearful that by not addressing something right way, it will become a larger problem later. We've had the most horrible fights simply because I had a look on my face! Again, a matter of I had a feeling that he thinks I shouldn't have had because I'm oversensitive. I'm not speaking of deliberate, exaggerated expressions here either, just stuff like a fleeting look of disappointment. Momentary expressions.
I agree. He will say 'I an NOT lecturing you!' and gets very upset, so I don't say that anymore. I expressed it in the past and he knows how I feel. No need to say it again.
I agree. When things are more calm, the listener will raise a hand when they would like to interject on the point being made, so the one speaking will know not to move on to another aspect without a pause for other to speak. Also in more calm times I might write a one word note to myself, while he's talking - so I don't forget a thought, and can bring it up when he's finished. At my worst, I can interrupt as well, and I need to stop doing it if I expect the same from him.
I don't disagree with his feeling, or his expressing it. I want to know how he feels. I disagree with him blaming me. In more constructive conversations he has pointed out a specific phrase or mannerism that is a trigger for him feeling a certain way, and if I can get that kind of input, than I can avoid doing or saying that thing.
I agree. He doesn't see it that way.
I will work to find that particular box of books.

Thank you!

Writing is a good idea. The course is probably also a good idea. I will try to bring it up when he calms down.

He is of the opinion that the sole problem is my anger. I agree it is a big problem. I disagree that it's the only problem. However, the only problems I can work on alone are my own problems. And there's plenty of work there to focus on.

Re-reading this one was good. I DO want him to express himself. I don't want him to feel that he can't express himself. But you're right that I can't disagree with his perspective on this. He feels that way, and it's sad. So the question for me is, what am I doing that causes him to feel he can't express himself?

I don't know how he would answer this, but he has made the overriding point that his biggest problem with me is my AO. So that is the thing I will work on first. Maybe if he can feel safe from the AO, he will feel more confident to express how he feels. I'm sorry if this seems simple of me not to see this. Thank you for your thoughts to help me see this.

Fretless, the program involves making a radical change in your habits. I can tell the basic issue, besides not giving up lovebusters, is that you and your husband never learned the POJA. You both come into a negotiation with preformed ideas instead of using it as a brainstorming session to find a THIRD alternative that suits you both. You will always have issues unless you learn how to negotiate.

Most of us on this thread have solved this problem but we did it by going through the MB program. If do it yourself has not worked, I would strongly urge you to look into that. My H and I went through the MB 10 years ago and we have become masters at negotiating conflicts because the longer you do it, the easier it comes. We do it very easily now.

This should stop completely. It is a very negative, unnecessary conversation. If he does this, I would suggest leaving the room.

I think my husband would disagree on this point. Often if something bugs me, and it's just something minor that I can get over in a moment, I don't say anything, but he notices a fleeting look on my face, and that becomes the topic of discussion until he can get to the bottom of it. He is fearful that by not addressing something right way, it will become a larger problem later. We've had the most horrible fights simply because I had a look on my face! Again, a matter of I had a feeling that he thinks I shouldn't have had because I'm oversensitive. I'm not speaking of deliberate, exaggerated expressions here either, just stuff like a fleeting look of disappointment. Momentary expressions.[/quote]

This should stop too. You don't have to explain the WHY's of why you don't want to do something. As you can see, this is nothing more than a completely unnecessary lovebuster that avails nothing.


But has he stopped lecturing you? And when he does lecture will he stop if asked?


This all sounds so grueling and unpleasant!! Have you checked out the Friends and Enemies of Conversation? here


I agree. He doesn't see it that way.[/quote]

Will he stop it? It is very disrespectful.

FYI, Dr Harley rewrote the book Lovebusters a couple of years ago so I would start there. There are also exercises in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love you can use. Starting on lovebusters is the place to start, but one of the most glaring issues is your inability to negotiate. I hope you take a look at the MB program because it will get you where you need to be much faster. My H and I wasted 7 good years on do-it-yourself and the Harleys fixed it inside of a year.

fretless, would he sign up and come here and start his own thread? It would be interesting to hear his perspective of the biggest problems. Here is a good questionnaire for you both to fill out that might you assess the issue http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/MaritalProblemAnalysis.pdf

We've actually had some success with this. And yes, often it begins with each of us having our own ideas, presenting them, discussing the merits of various plans, and usually ending up with something enitrely different than either of us initially thought, but something much better than either of our initial ideas. We've both remarked on this, and we know that when we're in this mode, we're incredible! But you're right - we don't use the POJA for everything. We've done it with physical things, financial things and big projects, but not with our day to day living. Very good point.

Grueling and unpleasant, yes.

Will he stop lecturing me if I ask? No, he just gets defensive and tells me he's not lecturing me. And technically, he isn't lecturing. He's carefully explaining how he sees something, and asking don't I agree with this point or that point. I say 'lecture' because it's less of a dialog, and more of a monologue on his part, sprinkled with comments or protests from me. He tends to be long winded and circuitous, with plenty asides, and frankly, sometimes by the time he gets to the actual end of a question, I can no longer put together what the actual question is in order to answer it honestly. I will often paraphrase back the essence of the question I think he's trying to ask before I give an answer. And if I've gotten the idea wrong, he starts all over again, mostly saying the same things, just as incomprehensible to me, but now he's more tense and frustrated which just amps up everything.

Now, to his credit, sometimes he will say that he gets understanding from this sort of thing. Sometimes there's an 'aha' moment on his part, that he just understood something about my viewpoint that he didn't see before.

The part about me not having to explain or defend how I feel wouldn't fly with him. He usually just tells me that I'm oversensitive, and tries to explain how I shouldn't feel the way I feel. And he offers as example that everyone else he knows doesn't feel that way, to which I usually reply 'everyone else isn't your wife and doesn't live with you 24/7 either, so it's not a valid comparison'.

The article you linked is excellent. I see both of us in those examples.

I do have the HN,HN & LB books in storage. I will make it a priority to find them and get them in the house.

I don't know if he would or not. I know he must have read some of the site in the last 6 months because he has used phrases with me like 'that agreement doesn't sound very enthusiastic'. For all I know, he may read here every day. He knows I do, because I listen to the radio show just about every day.

I can say, for me, all the replies have been very empowering for me. I am responsible for my AO, which I'm not proud of. In those moments I've become a person I do not like and I'm ashamed of myself. I love my husband very much, and he's a good man. I don't like how I've treated him when I get like that.

The idea that I do not have explain or justify how I feel is like a Godsend. I now have an emergency valve letting off my pressure, and I don't just have to sit there listening and answering yes or no questions until I'm ready to explode. I will try standing up for myself next time and telling him: I feel how I feel, it doesn't mean I don't love him, but I don't have to justify it, explain it, or compile lists of other people who feel the same way to convince him that it's 'normal', and that it's ok if he doesn't feel the same way or agree with me.

Thank you!

The goal here for him to learn to communicate with you in a way that is pleasant and enjoyable. The program can help him with that. What he should not do is continue in ways that lovebusts you, whether it is technically lecturing or not.


So that is another example of a lovebuster he would need to stop. A basic principle of MB is that a spouse never has to explain or defend themselves. Whether he agrees or not, you should not do it because it is not good for your marriage.


Great! Another great resource is the daily MB radio show. You can download the app and listen to it anytime. [it is free]

You've got it! When my H or I don't like something that has been suggested, we move onto other options immediately in order to avoid any unpleasantness in the discussion.

I listen to the radio show every day. Even if I think the topic at hand doesn't apply to me, because there's always good info there regardless. And sometimes I find it DOES apply to me.

'Moving onto other options immediately'. Hhmmmm. I can see where that will take some practice.

F - this stood right out for me.

Did you know there is an actual mental health diagnosis in Japan called "Retired Husband Syndrome?"

This sounds a lot like that.


However, as you absorb the Marriage Builders materials, what you will find is what you have going on - and what "Retired Husband Syndrome" is - is that you and your husband likely lead parallel lives, rather than an interdependent and integrated life.


People in happy, fulfilling marriages don't often complain of "needing more alone time." For a lot of folks who have grown into a romantic and interdependent marriage, friends and family become a distraction rather than an escape from their spouse.


So, previous posters have given you some key points to work on for improving this situation - most notably the POJA.

Along with the POJA, and eliminating Love Busters, you two are going to have to develop a plan to maximize mutually enjoyable time to provide each other with Undivided Attention (per the Policy of Undivided Attention) - and during this time, you will meet the 4 intimate emotional needs; Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.


You are in an enviable position to do this - if your husband will take the lead.

Keep listening and reading, eliminate the Love Busters that you can, and see if you can invite your husband to join you in a Romantic and fulfilling life of retirement in your love-nest.


When you start having success developing mutually enjoyable activities, and integrating your lives, it will make the difference for you both!

This Retired Husband Syndrome is definitely at play here.

When I left my job, I read a book called 'the Joy of Not Working'. I had so looked forward to ending the 9-5 office life, so when I saw it on the library shelf I borrowed it mostly for fun. Once I started reading, I was astonished to discover how indoctrinated I had become from my years of working. I ended up reading it twice.

I tend to be a powerhouse doer. After leaving work, I set to finding the place we always dreamed about and making it a reality. In some ways, I play the male role in this syndrome.

My husband, in contrast, is quite relaxed and laid back. His work was driving, connected with the building & maintenance trades. Toward the end of our working years, he was the person at home, playing the supporting role for me and my job. And after I left work, he held down the home fort while I hit the road, exploring the places we had researched from afar, looking for our new home.

He definitely suffers depression, and readily admits that. He also has some physical issues, which we hope are minor and resolvable. It upsets me that he will often blame these things on me. He is depressed because of me. He is sick because of me.

He may very well have his own thread here already, because he has already taken a lead in expressing himself and in reining in some of his annoying habits.

MelodyLane's post about the POJA and 'immediately moving on to other options' has been on my mind since I read it. Stepping back and watching myself and my own thought process, I can see that I don't do this. I do it when big negotiations are on the table, but I don't do it as a matter of habit, throughout the day, in all ways.

My husband describes 'feeling pressured' by me. I didn't understand this, because I generally let him do what he wants, and vice versa. (another sign of parallel lives?) What Melody said may have broken the code for me here. Without even realizing it, I'm pressuring him in tiny ways, all day long!

So I have work to do. The good part is I generally succeed at anything I apply myself to, if I can get my head around it.

Thank you EVERYONE for helping me understand my part in this. I will update as I move forward.

Dr Harley recommends spending 15 hours UA time at a minimum to maintain a romantic marriage. It is great to see that you spend a lot of time together, however, not all of it can be used as UA time.

Working together cannot necessarily be considered UA time. If you are 'working' at a hobby that is very enjoyable to both of you while also interacting, such as gardening, it can be considered recreational companionship and would count toward UA time. However, watching a movie would not count because you cannot interact in any way. As HHH stated, the UA time should be filling the 4 intimate EN's in some way. I think if you break down the time you spend together, you will probably have to filter much of it out, and find better ways to spend time that fills the 4 intimate EN's.

However, I can speak from experience here to say that as long as your UA time is filled with lovebusting, you might as well not spend it at all. I know when my H and I first started doing UA, his constant lovebusting made me very UNenthusiastic about going on a date and halfway through the date I was just iritated and wanted to go home. I would feel less in love after a date then before, which is not the point!

Consider your lovebank to be a bucket. Every time you fill EN's, specifically the intimate EN's, you place a token in your bucket. However, lovebusters create a hole in the bottom of the bucket. You can put as many tokens in as you want, but as long as you maintain that hole in the bottom they aren't going to do much good! Which is why you really need to get a handle on the lovebusting so spending UA time together can be beneficial.

Have you read this and listen to the clips in this thread?
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I'm working my way through this thread. By coincidence, today's rebroadcast of the show talks about this (and Jim).

Update: After a rough patch, we're getting back on track. We did have another argument that began to escalate. This time we handled it differently and took a long time out for both of us to cool down. Later on we exchanged some words, some in writing, some verbal, reaffirming our love for each other, that neither of us like this ugly pattern, and we need to make some changes.

Later we talked about the time we spend together and about making a conscious effort to do some fun things that don't involve making decisions around the homestead, and spending time together that isn't just watching a movie.

(I did find the box that has my books in it, and I can see the stack way back in the corner, but couldn't get to it safely. I'll need to go back and excavate that corner more safely, or just buy another copy!)

So last night, instead of watching a movie, we enjoyed some wine and spent the evening reading aloud from a book we are both interested in. We had a lot fun talking about the subject, and we both learned new things. We had a nice long night, and made some massive love bank deposits meeting the 4 most critical needs.

We're off to a good beginning. :-)

I read your post and wanted to respond since no one else has so far.... sounds good.

I am going to make a suggestion: make a time poja agreement.
Such as: we agree that if by July 1st we haven't read the books and things aren't improving that we will join Dr Harley accountability program to help out.
If at any time during this one of us (with no explanation needed) feels like we are doing so bad, we will join that week.

I found that having a date helped my sanity out and felt like a nice safety net while we were working on things.

And for now! Just keep doing the work!
I would also get the workbooks that go along with Lovebusters and His Needs.... so so good! They really do help a lot!

I thought about this, but decided against it. My husband HATES deadlines of any kind. And he's feeling pressured by me in general. Adding a deadline didn't seem like a good idea. But I did keep the thought in mind about making sure we continue the good roll.

Also, he made the remark the other night that he's got loads of bookmarked pages that look him in the face whenever he sits down at his computer, and it's getting overwhelming to him.

However, after the great night I described the other day, we started falling back in the pattern of working around the property and not making any time for fun. We had a night of movie watching, when we were plain tuckered out from work, and that was fine.

Last night we talked while having dinner. And it was a bit frustrating for me. I feel he interrupts me a lot. He also digresses into old stories about disagreements with friends (which I've heard many times and hold as much vehemence today as they did years ago.) I didn't complain, I just asked that we move back to the topic at hand instead of talking about old, negative stuff. And we did.

After dinner he suggested watching a movie, and I asked if we could do something else instead. I explained that movie time doesn't have us interacting with one another, and we just did that the other night. I said I'd rather spend the time doing something that would better satisfy our emotional needs. He was immediately defensive and in short order we were off to the races arguing again. He accused me of trying to tell him what his emotional needs are. I responded that I am not doing that, I'm just trying to get some of my needs met and trying to do something fun that will help reinforce our love. He replied that we just HAD conversation over dinner. I explained why it was not very satisfying for me and things just got worse. We had a little bit of back and forth, but I tried to keep my calm and assert myself. He complains that when I say things like this, I make him feel bad, and it all comes down to 'he's a problem', and that's why he's not healthy, is depressed and doesn't sleep well, etc. I told him I can understand how he must feel that way. I asked can he understand how stringing all that together throws it all back at me and makes it sound like he's blaming me for all his problems? After all, I can't fix his health and sleep issues. He agreed that he would like to get a better handle on himself and his problems. That was the 'good' side, and we both did some lovebusting too, unfortunately, but much less than 'usual'. And we did break it up go to separate parts of the house the rest of the evening to keep it from escalating any further.

At bedtime, I first tried sleeping in the bed, but couldn't because I was still pretty angry, and laying next to him was making me worse. Throughout the evening I had started to wonder if, perhaps subconsciously, he actually wants me have AO? (The way he talks over me, hardly lets me get a word in edgewise, gets sarcastic, or belittles the need I'm expressing). Now maybe he's just nuts in the heat of the moment too, but I had not really considered that angle.

I went and laid on the couch and calmed down and thought about this angle. It really gave me more determination to not have AO. I fell asleep there, and then returned to the bed a few hours later (because I know it really bothers him if I do not sleep in the bed with him).

This morning I woke around 9, and he was already up and out of the house! This is good, but unexpected. He usually gets up anywhere from 10 to 1pm. (He doesn't always sleep well, so I let him get what sleep he can, when he can). So he was outside working all day and made a point of avoiding me and looked very angry. Last night he had made a point in the argument that he wanted and needed to get a better handle on himself, including his sleep/wake cycles, so maybe that's why he got up early.

I just let him be and set out to do some productive things on my own, and then later went and took the fun hike by myself.

So we are still in our own corners, avoiding one another. I'm sure he feels that I criticized him by suggesting we do something that better meets emotional needs, and stating that my needs weren't being met. While I'm not happy that he's upset, angry and avoiding me, it's preferable to arguing.

Update. Just after my post, he spoke. He wanted to let me know he wasn't trying to ignore me, he was just so angry, so he thought it better to stay away. He says he still has lots to think about and will talk later when he's more calm. I thanked him for that, and let him know I didn't like seeing him upset and angry, but I agree the silence and space is preferable to a screaming match.

A point Dr. Harley often makes is that, until Angry Outbursts are eliminated, no other problems can be solved.

What is he doing about those Angry Outbursts?

He's doing really well now. He's trying hard to communicate honestly and effectively, and so am I. He's making a concerted effort to listen better, to not interrupt me or talk over me. That's making a big difference. :-)

Has he done the first thing Dr. Harley says needs to be done to eliminate angry outbursts?

When you say 'the first thing', I interpret that to mean when Dr. Harley says the person must realize that 'no one makes you angry, you make the choice to be angry'. If that's what you mean, then I can't really answer that with regard to him. I understand that, but am still working on keeping myself calm. I aspire to the state that Dr. Harley describes as 'not even feeling angry'.

If you mean is he taking steps to short circuit and reroute the learned pattern and instead choose another behavior? Then I would say yes, he's doing that. In fact, we are both working on that.

How is it going fretless?

Are the AO gone?

It really is the main thing to focus on right now.

Anyhow, thinking of you!

I heard Dr. Harley on a radio show recently say that if you work on an anger management program that doesn't teach that noone can make you angry, you should dump the program, because nothing will work if you don't start from that premise.

If your husband hasn't acknowledged this that's not a good sign and I'd say your chances aren't good here.

Not gone, but definitely dialed way down in intensity.

Well, since I have plenty of work to do on myself, that's what I can focus on. If I can accomplish eliminating my AO, that's progress. And such a change in myself would be glaringly notable. So that is where I can place my hope at this time.

Also, I continue listening to the radio program daily, and it's amazing how much of the content is relevant to us! The other area I need to pay attention to is the POJA, and integrating it until it is second nature to me. I need to do better there as well.

I think you need to focus on whether or not he is doing what it takes to eliminate his angry outbursts.

Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
What to do with an Angry Husband

Have you listened to all the radio clips in here?
Anger Management 101

I'm still working my way through this one.

I did listen to all these clips.

Until I have removed 'the plank from my own eye', so to speak, I don't think I can point out the dust in his eye. He's already overwhelmed with everything he's reading, and he's feeling criticized by me. If I push this issue and point my finger at him, I think it'll just be gas to the fire. I should point out that he is not ever physically abusive in any way, and I don't ever fear for my safety. I think it's better to lead by example at this time.

Also, I still haven't been able to get my books (LB & HN,HN) from storage, so I ordered another copy of Lovebusters and I also ordered He Wins, She Wins, since we both clearly need help in the negotiation department.

Insisting that your husband not have angry outbursts is not taking dust out of his eye. Angry outbursts are serious business. A point we often make here is that no matter what a person has done, they do not deserve to be punished with angry outbursts - that includes even if you are ever demanding, disrespectful, or angry yourself.

You don't have to EARN an end to abuse by doing everything right first - it needs to end immediately.

Dr. Harley's position on angry outbursts is that they should never be tolerated in marriage, for so many reasons. Besides everything I just mentioned, they are incredibly dangerous. Even if a person's angry outbursts have never been violent before there is no predicting what a person will do in an angry outburst, because he or she is temporarily insane.

I strongly encourage you to start following Dr. Harley's advice on this immediately - don't tolerate angry outbursts from your husband.

Thank you Markos. I had to read that one a few times to really get it to sink in.

We�ve made some progress since your post. We�ve had some brief talks. Seems he thought I don�t care how he feels, and that I preferred to ignore issues rather that discuss them. I explained that this isn�t true. I care very much how he feels! I want the issues resolved too, but the way we�ve tried to do it has not worked. I explained what makes discussion unpleasant for me; being talked over, being interrupted, not being heard, having my point of view or my feelings dismissed, and being �lectured� to in order to convince me that I�m wrong or that I shouldn�t feel the way I feel.

The AO have stopped. He told me he has decided he's not going there anymore because he's out of his mind in that state. We both agree our communication methods have been horrible, and that we're BOTH out of our minds when the AO start. We agree on how destructive the fighting has been, that we both hate it and it absolutely needs to stop if our marriage is going to survive. We also agree we don't want it to just 'survive', we want it to flourish.

In trying to talk constructively, he initially was talking over me and interrupting me, and I told him this doesn�t work for me and until he stops this, I can�t talk with him. He�s made a very strong effort to stop this and we�ve started to have a true dialog.

..and my books will be arriving this week (Lovebusters & He Wins, She Wins), so we'll have some tools to work with.

Will your H listen to these?

I don't think he would do it on his own. However, I listen to the show daily, and he does overhear them (it's a small house). I will listen to this one (and the others that deal with AO) again at a time when he's around and would over hear it.

We've been doing A LOT better. We're both doing very well with not having ANY AO or DJ. We're both being much more thoughtful and working to meet each others EN. We're also being careful with communicating; and trying to be more clear, listening better, taking turns talking, and recapping conversations so there is no misunderstanding.

My books came in the mail, and I was fearful that he would get annoyed or upset when I opened the package and he saw them. He actually did take an interest and took a look at them. No negative reaction at all, in fact, his attitude was calm and welcoming. And even though he hasn't used the POJA phrase lately, he is definitely attempting to follow it and making sure I'm in enthusiastic agreement before we do anything. I've also been mindful of the POJA and working to make it a habit all the time. I am guilty of IB (buying books on my own, for example). So I've been careful to involve him in stuff I usually just take care of, just to be sure we're on the same page before I act. So things are looking up!

Why?

Anger Management is not really something you can pick up by osmosis. Is he on board, or is he not?

fretless,

Dr. Harley's program works, but it doesn't work if you don't follow it.

If your husband is not eagerly, enthusiastically learning how to eliminate his angry outbursts, the plan is to separate. Anything else is going to lead to the end of your marriage.

How soon can you get into Plan B? Are you prepared? You need to start Plan B preparations at the beginning of Plan A, according to Dr. Harley.

When a wife faces the problem of a husband who won't learn to stop his angry outbursts, Dr. Harley's advice is to prepare for a separation.

Because a separation and a divorce is coming whether you like it or not.

If you separate early, it may be just the thing that causes him to wake up and finally decide to turn around.

And if you separate early, it may mean that if he turns around, you still have enough good feelings for him that you are willing to reconcile.

If you don't separate in time, then if he finally does decide to turn around you will probably hate him so much that you will not be able to reconcile with him or not be able to stop punishing him, and we will not be able to talk you into saving your marriage.

Do you want to save your marriage, or not? A separation can be easily called off if it works. But nothing can fix it when you drag your feet on separating. If you are not willing to separate, then you might as well just divorce because this is hopeless.

You have to insist that if he wants to keep you he has to learn to stop the love busters and meet your emotional needs. If you don't insist on that, we cannot help you.

fretless,

Dr. Harley highly recommends that women give their husbands an ultimatum.

Please take a listen to this radio show and listen to what he says about it:

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=09920

Why? Because he has already told me he's overwhelmed with material to read. And while he will acknowledge some of his issues, I think he's of the opinion that I'm just too sensitive and if I could stop being that way, the problems would be solved. He always seems to return to that opinion.

Is he on board? Probably not. Neither of us want to end the marriage, but we do want to end the suffering. His assessment seems to be that if I were to stop being upset/angry with him, he would have no problem with our marriage. I hate to say it, but I think that's the 'crux of the biscuit'. He doesn't understand why I am offended by some of his behaviors, and if he can't understand it, it is therefore wrong. I think in his mind, if he's happy, I should also be happy. And if he can explain to me why how I feel doesn't make logical sense, I won't feel that way, and the problem would be solved.

Case in point today we had an problem. I was busy repotting plants, and he sat down and started telling me the latest news he read on the internet. I couldn't focus on what I was doing, but I know this is one of his needs, so I paused my work and sat with him and engaged the conversation. He then realized he was interrupting me and I said that's ok, I can get back to that, and I want to hear what you have to say. He said he really wasn't trying to interrupt me and started to get up, and I protested, but my voice raised a pitch and got squeaky because I was getting upset at the direction this was going. (My squeaky tone is one of the triggers that, in turn, upsets him). So he tried to quell him own response by making light of the situation. Except that his making light of it was to say (in a mimicking of my squeaky voice) "it's ok! And you don't have to get upset! And you don't have to get squeaky!".

I apologized for getting squeaky but told him that mimicking me is hurtful to me. To this he told me that he's just making a joke, making light, and has good intentions of diffusing the situation. I said diffusing is good, and making humor is good, but doing it this way is doing it at my expense. We had recently talked about this, and how I find his mimicry to be hurtful. So he responded that I'm too sensitive and I shouldn't be hurt by this. I responded that a better way to make humor might be if he made fun of his own behavior instead of mine, and then he could have accomplished his objective of diffusing himself without hurting my feelings.

So this went off to raised voices and him trying to convince me that since being hurt by something done with good intentions doesn't make sense, I shouldn't feel that way. I told him good intentions doesn't make it right. It escalated and he started talking over me again and I lost it. I asked him a few times to leave the room and leave me alone. When he didn't, I screamed the same at him.

He went to another part of the house for a while and then returned to try discussing again. I had calmed down some, so I engaged him. He asked me if I could see his point of view, and when I started to respond that I could, and I can really sympathize with how he must feel because it's probably very confusing for him at times to understand me. He started talking over me again, right after the 'I could' part, and getting louder to drown me out. This escalated to both our voice getting louder, both of us talking and no one being heard. I ended it by screaming at him that it isn't a conversation when only one person is allowed to talk, and if he's going to talk over me, I can't talk with him, so go away and leave me alone.

So I went and listened to the whole anger management audio again, and he went outside.

I did hear that one the other day. I listened to the entire thing again just now.

I really don't like the idea of separation, because I think it would be the last straw for him and we'd end up in a divorce. To go there, I'd have to be prepared to have it backfire on me, and be prepared for the worst. I'm not there yet.

But I suppose I can make an ultimatum of him joining me reading the books and getting on board with the program.

I think he's reluctant to engage the program because he thinks my reading about these things is the problem. He sees it that when I focus on marriage counseling type material, our problems increase. He has actually said that. But the reverse is true; it is the problems that cause me to seek answers and solutions.

Most of our married friends are in situations that fit that phrase the Harley's hate; Happy Wife, Happy Life. We know men who remain married by doing the 'yes Dear' route, and we pity them. I believe he'd rather be alone than live like that, and I agree.

In one of our more recent, better talks, we talked about the small things that escalate into lovebusting wars that do major damage. It's a case of 'winning the battle, but losing the war'. I think he's afraid if he gives up any ground, he'll be closer to that dismal, 'yes Dear' 'hen pecked husband' life.

And I think he has genuine confusion about how to deal with me. He doesn't understand my emotions. He likes the good ones, but he wants the unpleasant ones to just go away because they don't make any sense to him.

I just wanted to stop by and let you know that separating is really the only chance at not divorcing.
It seems counter-intuitive for most people but it is the truth.

I know as a woman who should have done it long before I did-you are already on the divorce track no matter what it seems and you are dealing with your own fantasy fog to think otherwise.

Could it lead to divorce by separating-yes... but you are already on that track now. If you pull the strings, at least you have some control over it-while also giving your marriage the best shot it has. What if he surprised you and started doing everything he could to keep you? You never really know.

For now some tips: When your H starts to talk over you-get angry.... leave.
I mean whenever, however and no matter what. STOP TALKING.
You can Not reason with him at that point.

Just walk away. Get out of the car. Leave and go to a safe place. I will say it again just for effect: Leave!

So when the situation started to go south- stick to the script Dr. Harley has us use:
"It bothers me when you mimic me."
He starts in "blah blah blah" getting angry and Disrespectful.
You just stand up and leave. You say nothing else. Just leave.
If he follows you- still say nothing- get in your car and leave.

You have to do this every single time. You never ever yell to leave you alone- You leave. Never ever ever ever tolerate being in a room while he starts to get defensive and angry.
"It bothers me when you talk over me"
Doesn't matter if he heard you or not- then you leave.

I hope you get the picture. This will at least help you for now stop reacting and yelling yourself.

What would be the "or else" embedded in that ultimatum?

Has he learned about AO's and DJ's and is he trying to avoid them? I am asking because in your last post you indicated that you were doing better, and he was not having AO's or DJ's. But given your explanation of his general attitude here, it seems like the opposite. It seems like he has not identified or stopped his AO or DJ behavior at all.

Of course you already know what we are going to say, that you need to separate if he is unwilling to meet your needs and avoid the abusive behaviors. His general attitude seems to be that he does not need to do these things and you just need an attitude adjustment.

The worst is going to happen. You get a choice to manage it and try to steer it toward something better, but the way you are going now is not going to make anything better.

There are really only three ways this can go:

1. You issue an ultimatum and back it up with separation if he doesn't step up. He decides that if this is what it takes to keep you he will learn to control his temper and stop other love busters. You both live happily ever after.

2. You issue an ultimatum and back it up with separation if he doesn't step up. He decides not to do what it takes. You live happily ever after without him.

3. You wait and hope. He will never do what it takes. You go through another 8 or 10 or 18 years of pain and heartache and end up damaged. Maybe if you are lucky you pick up the pieces afterward and live happily ever after without him, but you spend the rest of your life wishing for those 18 years back, wishing you'd done this sooner.

You are hoping there's another option here, and there isn't.

We know. They are all like that.

What turns them around is a wife with high standards who insist that their husband has to do what it takes to give them a good marriage.

The ones who don't insist keep coming back here year after year, sadder and sadder. You can read all about them here on old threads. Some of them have been doing this for over a decade. They are still hoping that they won't have to insist.

The only thing a separation is going to do is hurry on up what would've happened anyway. So, if he is the kind of man that is going to step up and change what needs to be changed, it will happen sooner. If he's the kind of man that will never change for you and would rather just divorce, that will happen sooner. Whatever is going to happen will happen sooner. Sooner means less heartache in the long run, either way.

This program will not force your husband to say "yes, Dear" and capitulate. Dr. Harley would be happy to tell your husband that.

But you are still going to have to insist if you want your husband to follow it - you are going to insist that you need more from him.

That was a great post for me! I needed that detailed description! Thank you!

I know that the program won't make a 'yes Dear' husband out of him, but he doesn't know that. I think he's alternating between really trying and letting his Taker do his talking when he gets agitated. He'll do really well, and then when he got a little agitated yesterday, he tossed at DJ at me, which he says he intended as humor. Maybe I shouldn't have responded to it, but I decided to remind him that this is one of the hurtful things we JUST talked about and it was a poor choice of making humor if diffusing tension was his objective.

So he did calm down and communicate better later, asking how he could have made a better choice of humor to diffuse the tension without being offensive. So there's peace at the moment.

I'm going out of town for a few days to visit my family. I've been devouring the LB book and should be done before I leave. So I'll ask him to read it while I'm gone. I think if he reads the book, he will understand that I'm not trying to make a 'yes Dear' man out of him. Hopefully he'll honor my request and read the book. He read it years ago, already, so it's a reasonable request.

I know the rereading LB is doing me good.

What is your plan if he doesn't read the book?

Since you commented that "He's already overwhelmed with everything he's reading," he doesn't sound very willing to do any more reading.

You are going to have to insist on changes, and you are going to have to have a plan for what to do if he does not make the changes you need. I know you said he feels pressured by you, but he should feel pressured.

I don't have a plan that far out.

I do have a place to go in the event of an emergency. I have a friend not to far away who offered that I could come to her home anytime I need to. And I have a key. I'm sure she would let me stay for a short time if I needed to.

I don't know the laws of my new state regarding separation and divorce. I could educate myself on those things, and I understand it would be wise to do so.

The only time I've considered these things is when the fighting has gotten really, really bad. I am more financially dependent now than ever in our married history, and employment options in this area are slim to none. I really don't want to leave what I've worked so hard for, but if I had to start over again, I could do it.

I really don't think about those things unless I feel pushed to the wall.

It would be last resort scenario, with emotional withdrawal and stoicism being the next to last resort.

fretless, when I asked what your plan was - it's really a rhetorical question. The goal is to point out that you are heading for trouble because you don't have a plan.

Dr. Harley mentions that before you begin Plan A, you should get your preparations underway for a Plan B. That would include talking to a lawyer about the law in your state, finding out what the legal options are to get your husband to support you during a separation, etc.

If you aren't going to follow Dr. Harley's recommendations for Plan A, I wouldn't expect it to work.

Why don't you email Dr. Harley and talk to him and see if he can help you get over the hump and start planning your Plan B so that maybe this will work instead of lingering for years and slowly killing you?

You know that's not going to work, right?

Do you basically just not believe me when I say you are going to have to insist? Are you hoping that you'll find out that you won't have to insist?

Did you see this post?

Don't do that before separation. Before you separate you want his last memories of you to be good.

It seems everyone but me agrees I should separate. I understand the logic of it, I'm just not ready to do that.

I'm going to give him a chance before taking that route. He is trying. He isn't always succeeding, but he is trying. Same for myself.

I'll ask him to read the book while I'm away and see if he does.

Is it a selfish demand to insist that my husband join me in reading Lovebusters and He Wins, She Wins? I know Dr. Harley talks about 'inviting' a spouse to do something you would like them to do, and not trying to force it. My husband says he will do it, if I insist, because he cares about me. But he says I'm forcing him, which does sound like a selfish demand.

And how is giving him an ultimatum, or separating, also not a selfish demand?

He has eliminated his AO about 99%. He's doing better than I am at this.

Invite your spouse to read Love Busters with you. Or get the audio version, because a lot of men don't like to read. You shouldn't demand your husband read the books, but you can invite him to read through a page or two together every day or a couple of times a day over a cup of tea. Keep it pleasant.

If your marriage isn't going to improve soon, the choice is for you is to stay and endure love busters versus separating after a great Plan A. Plan A is imperative, because you want the time before a separation to be something good for your husband to remember.

It's great your husband has virtually stopped his AOs. Dr. Harley often says that no problems can be solved when one or both spouses is angry. That needs to be eliminated completely. How is he doing with the disrespectful judgments?

I have read through your thread, and, to a certain extent, I can see a lot of our own mistakes. We also moved to a place where we didn't know anyone. Moving, even one that is wanted, is often a source of great stress.

You also said your husband is depressed. Was he diagnosed by a professional? Is he on meds?

After eliminating love busters like anger and disrespect, the time for Undivided Attention is crucial to a great marriage. Moving, unpacking, painting, decorating, fixing up a house and the garden and working outside can become drudgery after a while. So many decisions to negotiate through about what color here, which picture there, what furniture where; sometimes it seems neverending.

Once we began to focus on getting out of our house for our fifteen hours a week, doing things we both enjoy, our life together became a lot more fun and our marriage improved. Working together in the house is not UA time. UA time is supposed to be the most enjoyable time of the week, the time to reward yourselves with time together having fun. While you are in your UA time, make SURE you both practice the friends of good conversation and avoid the enemies. This isn't the time to discuss problems or to be negative. Talk about topics you both enjoy and make sure the conversation and tone stays pleasant.

Here's the recreational activities inventory: Here

Separating isn't a demand - it's the "do nothing" part of the policy of joint agreement. It's how you create a situation where the POJA is followed - either your husband does what he needs to do to make you feel enthusiastic about the marriage, or you aren't willing to do anything with him any more.

Separating protects you from emotional harm. It's your health and safety, which always trumps everything else in Dr. Harley's rules.

In order for it to be a selfish demand, you would need to be punishing him if he doesn't read the books with you. Are you punishing him with disrespect or anger when he declines your invitation?

You should invite him to read with you, but he is free to decline without threat of disrespect or anger from you.

You are also free to decline continuing to live in a marriage in which your husband lovebusts you.

Again, you have the right to decline to continue to live in a hostile environment that is detrimental to your health. Just as he has the right to decline doing anything to improve your marriage.

What about that 1%? How often are those? What does it look like? Dr. Harley has said that ANY AO, even as infrequent as once a year, is detrimental to a marriage.

Thank you all for those perspectives on asking him to read the books!

A 'Reader's Digest' version of updates here. It got a little worse before it got better. I did use the "S" word, which he took as a threat. I explained that the LB are killing our marriage, and if they continue, I am considering separation; to work on repairing the relationship and to ensure that there is something left to save. He didn't like this, but it appears to have made a difference. The AO stopped!

Initially, he asserted that we need to prioritize making separate work spaces and spending a lot more time apart. I responded that isn't the kind of marriage I'm looking for. I can agree we need a little bit of space, but his proposal sounded more like a form of separation in the same house, or a business partnership. I stated I want to work on our marriage.

I stated the books are something I want to work through together to restore our marriage. He did not like it, but said he would read them if it was important to me because he cares about me.

He wanted a list of all the things he does that I don't like. What I gave him is my EN questionnaire, for starters. Even though it is mostly good, he was overwhelmed, grumbled about the format, and said that's not the list he asked for. He wants a list of the bad things. I sat down with him and read my LB questionnaire aloud. He wasn't happy about it, but to his credit, he stopped talking over me and interrupting me. And no AO at all. We had a good talk after that, and he explained some of his complaints about me, which I took to heart.

There were a few tense days after that, with both of us on our best behavior. Both of us have done a great job at no DJ or AO.

Still no reading of the books, however. I'm behaving in a Plan A fashion generally, because I now see how I've wounded him in the past.

Regarding depression, it's not diagnosed, and he's not on meds. It's just very obvious, and we both agree on that. He says he is depressed because of me.

I did email him one of the recent radio shows where Dr. Harley talks about the friends and enemies of good conversation. I don't know if he listened, however.

For now, I'm letting the dust settle, being on my best behavior, and letting him get a bit of a rest. (We are both wiped out after the pressure and stress of long term, chronic fighting.) I'm keeping myself on task by listening to the radio show daily, and rereading LB and HW,SW on my own. I'm appreciating changes he's making, especially his great effort at having balanced, two way conversations, devoid of DJ.

One of his complaints was that I 'yell at him for nothing'. I apologized, and told him that's not what's in my heart, and that's not how I want to treat him. So I'm watching myself to make sure I don't do this. So far, no problem. It's much easier to be kind and pleasant now that he's refraining from his LB. I imagine he's finding it easier too.

We both agree we have a lot of work to do, but we are both happy and excited about the future now. :-)

My husband liked the audio books better.

I'm sad to say that there were some good days, and there were some bad days. My husband does not want to do the program or read the books. He is of the opinion that this is just my 'latest thing' and that it has, in fact, damaged our relationship. The MB program and the books are now a LB for him.

He says I don't listen to how he feels and he can't express himself. He is incorrect, because I do want to hear his feelings and point of view, but to sit there and listen to it expressed in a manner that is loaded with LB and blame toward me, I can't do. I have told him this is abusive and I won't do it. He agrees that it is abusive, but can't seem to change it. I have heard what he's said about how he feels I've treated him, and it makes me very sad. He wants me to understand and not be defensive. While this is exactly what's in my heart to do, I haven't been able to do it because of the blame, DJ and AO attached to his expression.

At this point we are both in a state of withdrawal. But at least not talking to each other means no arguing.

I've been investigating my choices, which are few. At this point, I'm sad to say, my plan is to accept that our marriage is basically a business partnership. We will likely live our own independent lives within this framework. It's not the happy, joyful marriage I want, but it's not that bad.

I understand that, should I decide to separate at this juncture or in the future, it will most likely mean divorce.

I THANK everyone who took the time to read my posts and offer thoughtful and heartfelt advise. Unless my husband changes his mind about getting in the program, I don't expect I'll be posting again, as I don't want to waste anyone's time. I really do appreciate all the time and effort you folks have spent on us.

I will continue to listen to the radio show, because it does me good. And I will continue to work on myself to improve at refraining from DJ, SD & AO, because I want to be a better person.

Fret less, I don't know how old you are, but unless you are on your deathbed there is still life to live. Staying in a miserable relationship will cause mental and physical health issues and you will not have a happy fulfilling life. You would be better off alone than in a marriage where you are being abused through massive lovebusting behavior, with a spouse who has no intention or desire to change that behavior (or incentive since there is clearly no repercussion to it for him, other than your ongoing unhappiness which does not seem to be enough). Please reconsider living this way for the rest of your life.

Fretless, please keep posting, and please stay in touch with Dr. Harley. We still have advice that can help you when your husband refuses to do the program.

Markos, Thank you so much. I am glad to say things appear to be turning around. My husband emerged from withdrawal. He had a lot to express, which was pretty charged. I was still enough in withdrawal to sit and listen without defending or commenting. The venting seemed to do him good. We're back on track and have spent several really good days recouperating and getting lots of backed up jobs done.

My next step is to again welcome him to read the books with me. Wish me luck. He reads before bed, so I also read, one of my Dr. Harley books. He knows I want to do this program, and he did listen while I read aloud chapter 1 of HW,SW. So I'm going slow, but keeping a focus. Wish me luck! :-)

A week later we are still doing well. Taking it slow and careful. Into chapter 3 of HW,SW. The dueling dictators part, I feel, was a good chapter to read, for both of us. And I think him hearing Dr. Harley's views on 'happy wife, happy life' and 'husband's capitulating' was good. So he understands nobody is out to make a 'yes Dear' husband out of him.

Continuing to get caught up on house and property jobs. Had one fun day out visiting a friend. We've had some minor conflicts, but we both approached the situations with caution, patience, a quiet voice, and loving care.

So far, so good! :-) (What a difference we both feel in body, mind and soul now that the arguing and LB has stopped.)

Another update: still continuing to do very well! Both of us have been practicing the POJA and getting better at it. Also doing better at communicating, and therefore understanding each other's perspectives.

No more AO at all. DJ are very scarce these days too. Since communicating has been a positive experience lately, we do more of it. Conversation has become a fair dialog now, with each getting a chance to talk, and each listening better and really trying to understand the other.

EN have been front burner and getting met in fun ways. We've both been working really hard, but we're enjoying doing jobs around the place. (Rural homestead living - summer in full swing, and autumn just around the corner makes it a heavy work time). We're making time for breaks in the schedule, to go do something fun. Hiking together to explore our property a little more, or taking a ride down one of the dirt roads we've never been on.

The turnaround is truly amazing. My husband has done an outstanding job of changing the things that were really hurting me. And I've been changing my ways as well; No AO or DJ, being more patient, and trying make him feel that I'm always glad to see him.

I know we still have work to do, and I still listen to the radio show to keep myself from backsliding.

Just wanted to share some good news. :-)

How much UA time are you getting a week?

We're getting the minimum of 15 hours, doing fun stuff, but usually spending more hours than that. We're also spending many more hours working together.

Overall, going very well. I'm still noticing areas in myself where I haven't followed the POJA. So when I notice it, I usually describe it to him, and the reframe the event in the way I think I should have handled it. And he will chime in with his perspective on it.

So far, so good.

In my opinion, if they are 3 years old and people are still arguing, they should not get married. Sometimes people expect that after the wedding will be better, will not

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm confused by this comment too.

Another update. Still doing very well.

I am amazed at the turnaround in our marriage. It has become very easy to get along with my husband. My heart brims over with love for him. Our life together is filled with joy, looking forward to the future, and really enjoying life. :-) What a difference. Not so long ago, I was considering giving up everything we'd worked so hard for because I was desperate to get away from him and all the fighting.

I know this is a DJ, but I want to illustrate some of the changes my husband has made. He used to be very OCD about everything. He would just about follow me around offering me advice on how he does things, with the implication that it would be good if I did it those things the same way. He has stopped doing this.

I've noticed that on the occasions that he does offer some commentary about a job I'm doing, that I don't get upset and defensive like I used to. Stepping back and analyzing it, I see a difference in how he is offering his input. He used to watch me, interrupt me, and 'lecture' me about the subject and the preferred methods. With the result being that I would lose enthusiasm for the project, feel micromanaged and scrutinized, and lose love for him.

I have noticed that what he does now, instead of say, offering me a tool and going into a long explanation about why I should want it and how I should use it...now he'll just bring a tool, set it down off to the side, and with a smile on his face say 'I put that such-and-such there in case you need it', and he'll walk away and go back to what he was doing. Often I do use the tool he offered, and find it helpful. Sometimes I don't, because whatever I was doing was working for me. And this doesn't seem to bother him! So his presentation and interaction has really changed.

Not long ago, he was on the phone with a friend of ours. He was talking about differences between partners. He described how I do things very different from how he does them. He said that it used to really bother him because he tends to do one job, start to finish, and then clean up before moving on to another job. I, on the other hand, am always multitasking. I have several jobs going on at the same time. I heard him say something like '...it used to drive nuts. But I realized that if I just let her go, the thing that is bugging me WILL get taken care of. I might prefer it get taken care of RIGHT NOW, but if I leave her alone, and let her work the way she works best, it WILL get taken care of.' It was really good to hear that!

His leaving me to do my work, at my speed, and in my own way has made a huge difference in how much I can get done! It has also made it easier for me to see my shortcomings. I never realized it before, but now I'm aware that I leave things all over the place! I make quite a mess! In the past, I think he used to pick up after me while I was working. It was confusing for me because I would lose things! (I know I left those pliers right there, where did they go?) So now, I'm more likely to be more orderly about my work, and if something is in his way, he'll either move it and tell me he's moving it, or he'll ask if that particular thing needs to be right there. We address it and go on without it becoming a long discussion or an argument.

One of our past arguments was that he would blame me for his lack of productivity. He claimed he was always sidetracked doing things for me. I pointed out to him that most of these sidetracks were not requested by me, and in fact were an interference to me. I suggested that if he focused on his work and left me to mine, perhaps he would get more accomplished.

His positive changes have also made it more likely that I'll ask for his help. In the past, I would do everything possible (short of risking injury) to do a thing myself and avoid asking for his help. Because he was usually already way more involved in my work than I preferred already. He says he likes helping me, and it makes him feel good to be of assistance. So these days, because his demeanor has changed, I'm more likely to request assistance, knowing that the interaction won't result in a fight, will make us both feel good, and will facilitate getting things done.

I still have to work at consciously redirecting my patterns and thoughts with regard to independent behavior and the POJA. I make a point now of sharing my thoughts on an idea and getting his input before just jumping into action (as I would have done in the past). This means no surprises for him, and a lot less work for me.

So that was a much longer post than I intended! I've had this rolling around in the back of my head, and wanted to share it because it may help someone else.

Hi Fret, I never replied to you but have been reading a lot. It's so nice to see a couple working together for a common goal and to learn that it is working!

Thanks for posting all the helpful tips! I am actually reading them as tips for me to handle my teenage son I tend to be OCD as well, and although my intention is good, often times I catch myself trying to lure him into doing things I want him to do the way I want him to do.

Lately I stopped doing that as well. I still guide him and give him 'lectures' at times, but the frequency has dropped significantly, and it seems to be bringing out some positive results.

So happy your marriage has turned around and is going strong!

A lot has happened since I last posted. We did well for a while, and then things slowly got crazier and crazier. I had done a lot of work on my angry outbursts, and I improved a lot. (I used a heart rate monitor to work on relaxing myself, and I was surprised how easy it was to do, once I got the hang of it). My husband's angry outbursts got worse, and the lecturing got worse. After a while of listening to this, I would either have my own angry outburst, or go to leave to avoid having one. If I would attempt to leave, my husband would get even angrier, but also would be pleading with me to stay. He became perpetually angry with me and would say things that hurt my feelings a lot. If we talked about this, he would get angry that I was splitting hairs on words and accuse me of constantly criticizing him. He would tell me that two different statements meant the same thing, when they clearly did not.

Things took a chilling turn one evening. We had had another argument, and made peace, and he had made the most delicious grilled cheese sandwich for me that I had ever tasted! I said as much, and he replied "good isn't it? You can't even taste the arsenic, can you?" with a devilish smirk on his face. I was sure he was joking, but the look on his face sent a chill up my spine. Later that night I asked him "so how long before the arsenic kicks in?". He flatly replied, without even looking at me "I don't know what you're talking about". ! At that point, I started documenting all arguments and interactions. I marked my calendar, and sent emails to myself documenting any disagreement we had. I did not believe he would really harm me, but I wanted some record in case I was wrong.

Because it was evident that he was very depressed, paranoid, defensive and fearful, I couldn't bring myself to leave him. It was strange because it was an intolerable situation, and yet I knew he was in trouble and I couldn't abandon him. He wouldn't seek help, or accept help, and blamed everything on me. I told him we needed to separate, but I had no real plan on how to do it. Because of his state, I eventually got a tent, that I intended to pitch in the backyard so that I could separate, but still be there. Of course, this wasn't a good plan, but it turned out I didn't need to pitch the tent.

He ended up having two incidents that seemed like heart attacks. We got him to a clinic, and after an xray, they determined he had mild COPD. But the nurse practitioner noted that some of his symptoms could not be from COPD. He had a numb cheek and a numb thumb that would come and go. I tried to get him to go to the ER, because I was worried about stroke. He would not go because we do not have health insurance, and he hoped it was a pinched nerve and would sort itself out. The nurse practitioner said it looked more neurological to her, but without imaging she could not determine what the problem was.

My husband continued on about a week more, and during that week he lost most of the ability in his right hand and arm. Toward the end of the week, he went to speak with me on two occasions, and what came out was not words! Still, he refused to go to the ER. He was annoyed and agitated at his loss of ability. Finally, on the Sunday night at the end of the week, he seemed to calm down. He was sweet and agreed to go seek help the following day.

So the next day (Monday) we drove to an ER and they gave him a CT scan. To our shock, it was not a stroke, but a brain tumor! He was given a battery of tests throughout the week, and given IV steroids to bring down brain swelling. His demeanor completely changed when the swelling was quelled! I got my husband back! On that Friday he had brain surgery and they removed a 3 cm x 3 cm tumor that was sitting on his left frontal and parietal lobes. After the surgery, my husband was his old self again, regained his speech and the use of his right hand and arm.

I did hear him tell a doctor that he had been having trouble with words for a long time; he couldn't find the right words. He had developed an annoying habit of telling me the same stories over and over again. The day after his surgery, he told me six stories in a row that I had never heard. The pressure on his brain had disabled almost half of his left hemisphere. After the tumor was out, and the pressure was relieved, he suddenly felt as if doors had been opened to rooms of memories that had been locked away for a long time. It was as if life had become increasingly cloudy and dark, and it happened so slowly that the dark became his norm. And now, it was a sunny day and everything in the world was beautiful!

Since that day in the ER, we have had no trouble between us. No arguments, and nothing but love and care between us. Unfortunately, the tumor they removed was a glioblastoma, which is a nasty one. His attitude is good, and we are taking the treatment course, to be followed by him being fitted for an Optune cap, which has made a huge difference in the outcome of GBM diagnosis in the last year or two.

In retrospect, I should have seen that something was wrong, but I attributed it to depression. I think if we had lived near family and friends, others would have seen the change in him and he might have gotten treatment sooner. I doubt it would have made much difference in the outcome, however.

Regardless, today I have my husband back, and I treasure every moment.

So, I wanted to post this update to let you know what happened, and also in case any other folks out there dealing with behavior that might actually be a medical problem.

And I appreciate any and all prayers that my husband's treatment is successful and his good health is restored.

My brother was found to have that same type of brain cancer this year. It was very advanced by the time they discovered it and because this is the UK (socialised medicine), they refused to treat. It caused depression, mood swings and then loss of fine motor skills. He also became a hoarder.

Yes, treasure every moment. I'm so sorry to hear your DH is ill.

I'm very sorry to hear of your husband's diagnosis. Prayers that his treatment goes well.

Thank you so much JenDee.

living_well, I am so sorry your brother did not receive treatment! In the US, there are states that have refused to take part in President Obama's Affordable Healthcare Act. Unfortunately, we live in one of those states. The most basic insurance costs 1 1/2 times our income, so we are uninsured. We have been blessed that a hospital 100 miles away has a brain tumor center and also has a mission statement that says they will treat all, without regard to their ability to pay. It is only through many Christians who truly walk the talk that my husband is receiving treatment. I am sure we'll have medical bills the rest of our lives, but I'm so thankful they are treating my husband. There is no 'thing' I want more than him.

Are there any Christian hospitals outside your healthcare system where you can seek help?

One new development in the treatment of glioblastoma is the Optune. An electro-magnetic device that inhibits the brain cancer cells' ability to multiply. Our doctors are very enthusiastic about this new device, as it has increased the survival rate for glioblastoma patients.

Thank you fretless. My brother died about four weeks ago. It was a gentle and very easy death. His condition was terminal as the tumour was large. Everyone got a chance to visit him and say goodbye. US doctors are trained to keep treating no matter what the prognosis. Very different medical philosophy from the UK. You might want to get some statistics of possible outcomes from the doctors before bankrupting yourselves.

So sorry for your loss living_well.

fretless, I'm sorry to hear about your husband's illness.

living_well, I'm very sorry for your loss.

Thank you abrrba, it turned into a bit of a thread jack. Sorry fretless.

Yes, I've googled it and read the stats on it. And I've checked on some of the basics about medical and financial. It seems pretty solid everywhere that no one can take our home, which is my biggest concern, financially.

He will finish his radiation tomorrow, and has done very well. Now for a month rest and the Optune fitting. In a month there will be an MRI.

We're going one day at a time with this. Those are two very different philosophies. I'm glad we have the option of treatment. And we have the option to not treat as well, but that never crossed his mind. The choices will be his, and I'll support whatever he decides. For now, we're doing what we can and hoping for the best.

I'm so sorry you lost your brother. This is a sudden and swift illness. I'm glad everyone had a chance to visit and say goodbye, and I'm glad it was gentle and easy for him to cross over.

Oh gosh! No worries! I really appreciate your comments and experience. *hugs*

I'll probably comment less frequently now, so as not to turn the MB forum into a medical forum. But I'll post important updates.

I've learned a great deal through all the folks here, from Dr. Harley's books and the Harley's radio show. :-)

To follow up and conclude this thread, I regret to say that my husband passed away from his illness. While this was not the outcome I was praying for, we became very close in the last year and I treasure the time we had.

He fought so hard to live, and I'm glad treatments were available to him. He came to a peace, met his 'Greeters', and was ok with where they would take him. He passed quietly while we napped, snuggled up together and holding hands.

fretless, I am so sorry for your loss. I am glad you were able to be so close until the end.

I'm so sorry to hear this, fretless.

I"m so sorry for your loss.

I followed your thread and rejoice that you were able to draw close during your last years together. Not only will that give you memories to treasure but it will also give you a more settled sense of closure.

Hugs,
S.

I'm so sorry.

Dear Fretless,

very sorry to hear of the passing of your husband. At the same time, it is a blessing that you were together in this and experienced good moments together.
It is absolutely true that we are very dependent on our brains in terms of how we react.
How are you holding up? Will you continue to live were you are living right now?

Thank you everyone for your condolences and best wishes. This is the most awful thing I have ever been through. I'm still not 'through' it, and I don't know if I ever will be. Since I live so far from family and friends, I have thought about moving, but cannot do it yet. I've spent my last year unpacking from our move and selling things I won't need to make ends meet. I've utilized IRS rule 72T to take a small amount from my retirement every year until I'm eligible for survivor's social security at 60. It's been very hard to unpack boxes that have my husband's handwriting on them. He was such a great packer - I have yet to find one item broken in the move. It's sad to dismantle what was to be our life.

For now, I keep busy with this project. I feel strongly that I need to clean up our 'mess' so no one else will be saddled with the job, should I pass. I'm not suicidal, but I have no purpose anymore and very little joy. I just get up every day and do what I need to do. I exist. I hope when I'm done my job with material things that I will have found a purpose, or will be in a better position to make a move.

I never knew being a widow was so hard. God threw me an outrageous hardball. I can only hope the next ball will be something really wonderful.