The reason I am posting is that my wife has been going to dance clubs with her sister and mom (both single). I can't dance and don't enjoy that atmosphere so I don't usually go with her. Well I went the other night and things didn't turn out so good. Their was a group of us including a few of her female friends from school (she is going for an RN) and her mother and sister. I was under the impression that she doesn't dance, but hangs out at the tables. So we are at the club and she tells me that their is a guy from her class showing up and for me to not freak out if she dances with him. So she goes to get a drink and I look at her phone and she ahs a text message from him saying "are you ready to dance" and "where are you (in the club)". So she gets back from getting a drink and I am upset. She talks to me and I calm down. He shows up and I act polite, shake his hand. So a little while later a song she likes comes on and she goes to dance with a few of her girl friends. After she is out their for a few songs another of her friends is telling me to go dance with her and I start felling like if I don’t then this guy from her class is going to go out their. So I do dance with her for a song, and hate every minute of it because I can't dance. Afterwards we leave and she doesn’t dance with him. We have talked about it a lot and she is very good about getting me to communicate about it. It is the fact that I am very insecure and have not had many relationships before I met her. I am now 27 and we have been married for 4 years and dated 3 years before that. I know that many people don’t mind their wife’s dancing with other men because it does not mean anything and is just fun. But for me the thought of her dancing to R&B music (usually very close dancing with a lot of contact) with another man depresses me. This all happened 2 days ago and I can't stop thinking about her dancing with someone else. She has told me that he is from out of the country and doesn't have any friends so she invited him to go out with her and her friends so he doesn’t sit at home all the time and she said he can dance okay. Now the thing that gets me is that my wife never told me that she dances with someone (although I wonder if she just didn't tell me because she knew I would not be able to handle it because of my insecurities. I just don't know what to think about this and how I can coupe with her going to the clubs without me. See, I am into cars and she isn't so I go out with my friends and talk cars and go to the races and she goes out with her mom and sister (which are both single). I know this has been a bit of a ramble but I am just venting a bit. Thanks for any feedback.

learn to dance.

that could be you out there dancing real close and sexy w/ her.
she'd love it.

Yep, that's the only advice I'd give you too. Take dance lessons. You say you don't like to dance because you don't know how. That's what lessons are for....

The advice given so far is awful. It doesn't address his question.

Yes, what your wife is doing is inappropriate by most people's standards. For a married woman to dance with a man in a dance class setting or at a wedding may not be the end of the world. But if it's a club setting and she is making this a regular thing to meet this guy and dance with him.... yes, it is inappropriate. You have every right to be upset. Don't blame yourself and think you have insecurities.

Learn to dance if you like. But the issue in reality is that she is not protecting herself nor acting like a married person. And it appears that her sister nor mother are respectful of that. That's problem #2. You really need to have a talk with your wife. You let her run loose and now she's betrayed your trust. Sounds like there needs to be some changes made.

I agree with Iagree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The core issue is that your WIFE isn't acting like a wife in that she is choosing to enact,what can be considered,an intimate act with another man.So what if he doesn't live in this country.Is she the representative of the USA for dance partners? Why can't he dance with a SINGLE woman? And why is she so concerned he not sit home every night? What about you? The fact that she has his cell number too is concerning.

You've not stated how old your wife is but even if she is your age,you've been together since you were about 20 which is young and she may just be feeling like she's missed out on "something".How is your marriage otherwise? Any kids?

It's ok to have separate hobbies and likes but not if they come at the expense and discomfort of your spouse (read up on the concepts here such as POJA).Hopefully there isn't anything more to all this but the dancing but keep your eyes and ears wide open.

Also,taking dancing lessons may help your wife feel that you care about her even though you don't like it.Trying it out,you may find you actually do over time and that can be something you share.Same could be said if she took an interest in cars to some degree.

I don't think you have "let her run loose" as she is her own person and can do what she wants in life.However,she is not protecting you and the marriage so it's left open to assault,by other's who can interfere (as in cheaters).

Please take some time to read the concepts here and check out the MB bookstore for some great reads.If you want to have a healthy,protected and happy marriage this is a good place to start.Lastly,I too would not appreciate my husband dancing with other women.I don't care if "other's" are ok with that.

Just my opinion.Good luck

OK, this post scares me. Everyone else has been saying that it is my problem. She is going to go out with her sister tonight without me because we don't have a babysitter. She has asked me and told me that she doesn't want to make me upset and that I better trust her...jokingly. I told her that I have no right to be upset and that I trust her. I have told her that the problem is with me and I don't want to keep her from having a good time. I said this because I don't want what I thought was my insecurity pushing her away because of possible resentment by her. I am confused but am going to scedule counseling to go to with her.

Counseling sounds good.

I relate to your feelings about not wanting to push your wife away. But problem is that I guarantee she smells your insecurity and self doubt like a shark smells blood. She knows you are unsure of yourself and will be Mr nice guy. If you were to complain, all she has to say is "you are being controlling. Oh my God, what's your problem?" and you'll wallow in confusion and she can go back out and do whatever the heck she pleases. She's playing you against your own insecurites and inexperience, my friend. Wake up and smell the coffee. Go to counceling-- I would suggest on your own at first. And it wouldn't hurt to hire a PI either to monitor her on one of her nights out. Much better safe than sorry in this case. Despite her demands to trust her, my gut tells me that you will be rather disappointed to find out what kind of dancing she is doing or what other things she is doing while she is out. Good luck.

way back in the 80's i used to love to go to clubs and dance.
my H didn't.....so, sometimes i would go w/ friends and dance w/ other guys....H said he didn't mind......not a problem...acted like he didn't really care.
He was indifferent......Trust ME, that was NOT good for us.

I would have loved nothing more than for him to join me and dance......let go...and have fun.

BE Uninhibited!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

have you ever seen Along Comes Polly?

I have to agree with IAgree as well. Dancing with a member of the opposite sex is a no-no in my opinion. Why?

Well...dancing is an act that is sexual in nature. Some may disagree, but...consider this....Dancing is something that one does with a preference to do it with a member of the opposite sex. To me, that makes it sexual by nature. If a person is going to dance with someone, especially a slow dance, 99% of the time the preference is to dance with the opposite sex.

So, it has sexual characteristics to it.

so...why not join her then?

Dancing is fun!
She obviously likes it.... i loved it!
It does not sound like she is out there looking to pick up guys.
maybe she just really enjoys the atmosphere.....moving to the music....it's a lot of fun.
and it's very sexy.
I bet she would love her H to join her at the clubs if he didn't act like a stick in the mud.

What can you poja something you both can be enthusiatic about?

Learn to dance with your W.

Resentment building is in your process right now, you are jelous of your w going out dancing, your w will resent you if you try and stop her.

POJA when and how you and your W will do this, and listen to your W, all you can do is gain. You may find dancing is a good way to relieve your stress,

If he learns to dance, will she go to deer camp with him next year?

My point is this; if he hates to dance, there is no way to use POJA to get him to enjoy dancing with her. POJA does not mean trading what I want for what you want. It is about finding a solution that we both want. No amount of negotiating will ever make him want to dance, short of some form of blackmail.

The question I now hear is , "Why should she give up what makes her happy?" My answer is, "Who said she needs to dance to be happy?" and "Why should he do what makes him unhappy?" More to the point, when did it become his job to make sure she is happy?

She may not be out looking to pick up guys, but be sure that there are guys out there trying to pick her up. The issue becomes one of a boundary rather than intent.

guyguy,

If you want to learn to dance, do so. If you never learn to dance, don't worry about it. I would suggest that your wife not go out dancing "with the girls" all the time. Instead, use the recreational inventory on this site to find an alternative that you can both do together. If you decide to agree that she goes out sometimes, great! If you go with her every once in a while, even better! If you learn to dance, perfect! But if you just hate going to clubs, you don't have to go. The boundary needs to be hers, not yours. It isn't up to you to MAKE your wife act a certain way; it is up to her.

JMO.

Mark

First of all, G^2, welcome to this web site. I wish it could have been under better circumstances.

Secondly, I do not agree in this with the other posters that you should learn to dance. That is a flippant answer that blames you for the problem, and that does not get to the root of the problem. This is because the question is not whether you can dance or not, but rather how does a couple deal with situations where one of the two likes to partake of an activity that the other does not, whether it be dancing, clothes shopping, antiquing, or hunting, drag racing, or football playing. I would hazard to guess that Nia and Lucks would probably not give an advice to a question “My H likes to go out hunting with another woman; what do I do?”, along the lines “Just learn to hunt. That’s what hunting lessons are for.”.

Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with the two of you to have different recreational interests. Yes, large portion of your time in recreational activities should be with one’s spouse, but it is illogical that a H and W have to have identical interests. Every couple has to deal with the same questions as the two of you are facing.

Fourthly, when a man wishes to dance with a second man’s wife, the proper way of doing this is for the man to ask the second man: “May I ask your wife for a dance?”, then ask the wife, and after the dance thank the second man. This is the gentlemanly way of doing things. It is likely that the other man was simply uncouth. Pity.

Fifthly, when one undertakes a recreational activity without one’s spouse, one really needs to how it effects one’s spouse. You are not in the wrong here. You need to talk with her about this. The question is not “Is it wrong for a woman to dance with another man?”, but rather, “Is it wrong for a person to undertake an activity that strongly bother the spouse?”. You need to talk with her. You need to tell her that (a) you love her; (b) it is natural that spouses may have different recreational interests; (c) one spouse should take into consideration what partaking in such an activity has on the other; (d) the two of you should come to some sort of an agreement what should be done when such a situation arises. Do NOT make it into an argument whether dancing with another man is wrong or not. That is not germane. The only thing that matters is that it bothers you. Doing things purposefully that bother the other spouse does not a strong marriage make.

Good luck!

Originally posted by IAgree:
The advice given so far is awful. It doesn't address his question.

Originally posted by guyguy:
Thanks for any feedback.

My "awful" advice fell within "any feedback." Gee, that okay with ya, IAgree? Does it meet your personal standards of how I may respond? Hmm?

Your "advice" was have a talk. Wow. That was enlightening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

guyguy - If you're not at least slow dancing with your W, you're missing out on a great opportunity to fill her love bank. She obviously likes to dance. So take her out dancing occasionally. I personally don't think it's a good idea for separate dancing excursions, but you won't fare well forbidding her. SO JOIN HER. You don't like music? Can't sit at a table and drum your fingers to the beat, people watch, chat? Your W can dance with females or line dance to faster tunes, but you'd be there for the slow ones....

Thank you everyone for contributing. I think that we need to find a recreation that we enjoy together. My wife is not that interested in dancing and has said that she only goes because she likes to hang out with her sister and mom. She has also told me that she would not go if it bothered me. I have told her that I want her to go if she wants. Obviously if I tell her that I don't want her to go she will sit at home and build a resentment as she hears from her sister and friends about what she is missing.

She told me about a BDay party at a club for one her sisters guy friends next friday and asked me to go if I wanted. I am going to go because I don't want to turn her down. At the same time I know I will be anxious when the day comes because I simply don't feel comfortable around strangers. A friend of mine is also having a BDay party the following night at his and his wifes house that I have asked her to go to and she has said yes. It is going to be hard to find a babysitter but hopefully everything works out.

I'll go ahead and add something that I was holding back on.

$50 says that if you were to one night offer to go dancing with her at that bar, within 1 - 3 visits, she'd suddenly lose interest in going to the club dancing. Or there would be some other way she'd divert you from going with her-- either by coming up with an excuse why it wouldn't be good for you to go (girls only night, night for family bonding) or if you did go, saying you were no good at dancing, or flirting/dancing just enough with other men while you're there to make you feel soo crazy that you would choose to eventually not go because it is too painful to watch.

I stick to my theory that she is playing you against your insecurities. Wether this connection with this other man is an affair or emotion affair, I have no idea. But at the least, I think she is trying to keep you away for this activity so she gets to flirt or have attention from another man.

That is another reason why the "learn to dance" advice I think is missing the mark.

She's given you reason to question her credibility and open-ness here lately, wouldn't you say? Why not explore that? If you investigate and find everything is squeaky clean, then you can go back to being mr nice guy but I honestly don't think that's what you'll discover.

I just see you as a really nice guy with the best of intentions and I don't want you to get one pulled over on you.

Your advice flips and puts the responsibility and blame on the wrong person. AG elaborates nicely on this point. I thought AG's advice and insight was outstanding.

My advice was that changes need to be made. New rules, understandings, agreements, negotiations. And to do that, a conversation is needed. Plus a whole host of other things such as a PI. Not quite as simple minded of an answer... in my opinion.

Great points from Mark as well.

In my opinion, marriage doesn't have to be a ball and chain. And I do think that it is healthy to have some activities that one can do appart from their mate. For some guys, it's to join a bowling league or to coach a school's baseball team. For some women, it might be to take dance classes or maybe a game of bridge at someone's house for the more senior generations. I think the main ingredient has to be that it is safe. And in addition, the spouse has to show signs that they are protecting themselves. A guy on a bowling league should understand the dangers of talking to or bowling with a female on a regular basis at the lanes. A woman should be self-aware and get worried if she finds herself looking forward to seeing a male at her dance classes.

And in this case, his wife is choosing to go to a risky place... problem #1... and then on top of that, she is not protecting herself. problem #2. It's got bad news written all over it.

I really liked AG's advice on how to try to negotiate a solution without it becoming an argument.

EXACTLY.
He is missign a huge opportunity to BE w/ her....I do not advocate seperate excursions....Independent Behavior led to problems in my marriage and I have seen many relationships break up over it.


IAgree... I noticed when it comes to posts where women are complaining about thier H's and OW you sing a completely different tune.

Hey, AG...What about all your advice to the women who complain about thier H's secret porn habit.......you have said...."Face IT, he loves it...he's never gonna give it up. Join him in watching it....that would be a real turn on for him."

Why the double standard here?

I am not suggesting guygus take dancing lessons if it is something he absolutey HATES or has some moral objection to......but, it sounds like it just makes him a bit uncomfortable.......why not go out of your comfort zone a little to spend some time w/ wife?...make some deposits in her lovebank?

your wife sounds quite reasonable. She does not wish to do anything that hurts you.....she doesn't want to control you, like IAgree seems to think.

and you are lucky, sounds like she doesn't enjoy dancing as much as she does the "social" atmosphere....you don't have to worry about learning how to dance..... she just wants to some recreational time w/ you.

Good Luck.

Are you SLIM??
If so, your experience w/ women is not normal...not all women want to control and manipulate.
I didn't! I just wanted to have soem fun w/ my own Husband.
sounds like this wife does too.

talk about awful advice!.....step back....If you are Slim,you were never even married....you shouldn't be accusing this guys wife of wanting to manipulate him, go out wiithout him and flirt w/ other guys! JEEZ!

guyguy.....keep in mind that peopele tend to react to thier own life situations when they give advice...sounds like IAgree, whoever he is, has had some bad experinece....that does not mean that your wife is anythign like the women he describes.
Infact, she sounds quite devoted to you.

guyguy,

I think that putting some good boundaries around potentially risky activities (and yes, sometimes dancing with others can be risky) is a good idea. Prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

So first....there are some redflags in this situation. Your wife "omitted" (lie of omission) that she had a regular dancing partner. She didn't tell you until you were likely to discover it on your own. She's showing more care for his feelings (didn't want him to be alone) than she is for your feelings. Keeping information from you that would make you uncomfortable is not "privacy" it's "secrecy" and secrecy ruins marriages. He was texting your wife outside of your knowledge and in an inappropriate way, so whether your wife is trustworthy or not....it opens the door for him to think of her as "available" in ways that she shouldn't be.

I respect the fact that you don't want to be the "dance police" or overeact, but it's silly to ignore the danger signs in this situation. I understand that dancing is not your thing....but your wife has decided to use her love of dancing to act selfishly and independently in a way that shows a lack of care for your feelings. It's not enough that you care about her feelings.....she must also care about yours and be willing to pursue her love of dancing in a way that healthy for her marriage.

My husband and I have some reasonable <for us> boundaries surrounding dancing with others. I'm okay with him dancing with alternative partners within these boundaries.

1) Don't dance with strangers or people your spouse doesn't know. It's okay to dance with people in our own circle of friends....but they have to care about BOTH of us, and have loyalty to both us. They have to be our friends....but also friends of our marriage.

2) We don't dance with the same friend more than twice in one night.

3) Sexy dancing or slow dancing that involves rubbing body parts is reserved only for each other.

4) If a dancing partner doesn't respect those boundaries (keeps asking beyond a couple of times, cuts in repeatedly, dances dirty, flirts etc.) then that person becomes unwelcome and off limits as a dance partner.

5) Dancing with others is for when we go out together....not when either of us is out alone.

I think taking dance lessons is a great idea!! Please do that, but it won't absolve your wife of the responsibility of being open, honest and protective of your marriage. If she really loves dancing, it's in both of your best interests for the two of you to do that activity together. Do NOT question your own judgement about this guy....he sounds like an opportunist.

Yes, you would also benefit from finding some new activities that you both like....but don't neglect to address the activities you already both like....because the activities that are most enjoyable to us, are the ones we should do with our spouses. It's one of the things that helps safeguard marriages from affairs.

This doesn't have to become some big horrible drama either. As long as you approach this in a loving way.....and POJA around dancing (or one of your activities) can be a positive and empowering thing. The idea is for BOTH of you to walk away with a good deal that creates trust....not destroys trust.

I agree that your wife sounds devoted, but I also agree that in this situation....she sounds secretive, manipulative and flirtatious. At the very least, she sounds like she's putting your marriage in a vulnerable position with fuzzy boundaries and a willingness to keep information from you that might cause conflict.

For your part, you have to examine the reasons that your wife feels the need to omit information. Make it as safe as possible for her to be honest....or you will feed dishonesty. Be clear about what you're comfortable with and what you aren't. Trust your own instincts....they're usually right.

Your radar should rightfully be up....mine would be.

OMG... good grief. Dancing is always sexual? Spare me!

I've been dancing ever since going to my first junior high dance in 7th grade, age 12 (where my mom was a chaperone, BTW). All we kids did was get on the gym floor and move around a lot. Yes, it was generally one girl to one boy, but trust me, there was very little sexual stuff going on (the ground rules made sure of that).

At my age, my H and I don't go clubbing a whole lot but occasionally we find ourselves at a place where there is dancing. I tend to want to get out on the floor sooner than my H, and he has NO problem with me cutting it up with other girls or guys (if they want to join in). Usually the girls outnumber the guys 3-1 at least. Eventually he'll get out there too. Or not.

I dance because otherwise I would be bored silly at the clubs. The music's too loud to hold a meaningful conversation and I like the exercise.

But really, the idea that any female who goes out on the dance floor with a guy other than her H is headed for an A or trying to manipulate is ludicrous. Most of just want to burn up some energy.

But the whole issue begs a question I ask often: How do two people with such totally opposite interests (cars v. dancing; hates meeting new people v. likes meeting new people) get together in the first place? What on earth did they do while dating? Why didn't this come up before the M?

I also agree with the idea of moving outside one's own comfort zone. It really is a growth experience and who knows, you might find a new pastime that you'll enjoy.

GBH,

Do you go out dancing without your husband and dance with the same guy all the time? Does he text you messages asking where you are? Do you keep relationships secret from your husband? There are some substantial differences between what you're describing and what this poster is describing.

Of course it's okay to dance with other guys and it DOESN'T have to be sexual....but there are certainly some ground rules that protect marriages in that situation....don't you think?

Starfish,

Talk about cut to the chase...

I'm expressed, as usual.

guyguy,

This is the advice you need to heed!

Mark

I agree 100% w/ groud rules. I wish they were REQUIRED for marriages...often we don't realize how important they are 'till soemthing like this comes up.

When i read guyguys post i don't see a manipulitive, selfish controlling wife........I don't even see the red flags that star*fish points out, (potentially,yes)
i see a young married girl who could use some fun in her life and would enjoy spemding more time w/ her H......guyguy neve rsaid he wasn't INVITED to go the clubs...just that he doesn't like them.

I see a young couple who need to spend some quality time together.
She did not dismiss his concerns or get defensive when he told her he was upset...... she seemed very willing to work out an alternative plan.

nia,

I agree that her reaction was a healthy one....but the redflags surrounding ommission and secrecy are still there. That doesn't mean she's already done something wrong, but she definitely created a far riskier situation by dancing regularly with this guy, keeping that information from her husband....as well as the VERY telling statement "I don't want you to freak out but....." That's an incredibly disrespectful justification for secrecy and it's manipulative because it blames her husband for her poor judgement.

Again, I'm not saying she's cheated or that she's a bad wife....I'm saying that she's exhibiting poor and risky boundaries and those need to be addressed.

But I think we're basically agreeing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So now instead of her building a resentment, you are. Neither is healthy for your marrage. So you can POJA something else. "DW, I don't really feel comfortable with you going out to dance with your Mom/sister. That is something that single people do or couples do together. Is there another activity you can do with your Mom/Sister?" or "Can you teach me to dance so I can go with you?"

I agree with others that too much secrecy makes one suspect that the real reason to go is not to spend time with the mom/sister. f

I think you are doing the right thing in going to the party. It seems like you are an introvert and don't really want to be around so many people. Is your wife an extravert? That is, does she seems to be energized around others? If so, you two need to agree on some introvert type activities and some extravert type activities. But if your wife is going to spend time with mom/sister, it should be in a more marriage friendly environment.

the red flags around ommision and secrecy.....yes, i see them....it's funny how those flags are not quite as bright when they are not the ones that trigger me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I remember being a young girl married to a guy who didn't want to go to dance clubs but said eh had no problem w/ me going . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

it was never my prefernece to go out w/o him....i really TRULY would have loved to spend more time w/ HIM.....not my gf's, not other guys.

The answer to your questions: no, no, and no. I was responding to the post from I_mDefeated:


My point was that not all dancing is sexual in nature. Furthermore, as nia pointed out, I don't see a whole lot of secrecy here. The guy's wife invites him to go out with her. She also invites him to other functions she is attending to see family and friends. He says he is not comfortable in such settings, but worse, it appears he doesn't even want to TRY to become comfortable with them.

I'm a natural introvert, and so is my H, so both of us are a wee bit outside our respective comfort zones from time to time. But that doesn't keep either one of us from attending one another's work or family functions. I know my nephew's W is quite shy, but she attends our family functions and I think she has gradually become more comfortable with us.

Being in a relationship tends to work more smoothly when you have things in common, but most everyone has pre-M friends and interests that they may want to give up, so as the partner, why not at least TRY them?

Dancing, especially in a club setting, doesn't require a whole lot of skill. I never took lessons, and I don't know (nor do I care) if people consider me to be good at it. At least I don't THINK I'm making a total fool of myself out thre! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My preference is dancing with myself.
in front of a mirror. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm one the husbands who LIKES to dance. When I met my wife (early 20s) she was definitely into the club scene- 3 to 4 night a week. If we were going to be a couple I had to learn. One of our first arguments as a couple was about whether she should let guys buy her drinks when she was out with her girls. She thought it was a free drink- I thought it sent a bad message about interest and availability.

R&B/hip hop dancing IS sexual there's no way around it. The music is rythmic, the lyrics are usually somewhat (or extremely) explicit. Clubs ARE meat markets. This isn't line dancing he's talking about.


Lots of guys dont like dancing because they dont know how to dance and it makes them incredibly self concious. If thats the case take the lessons. You may find you love it and its an amazing date night- lots of physical intimacy. if its not due to self conciousness I'd talk to your wife about why you feel the way you do.

I used to dance with my wife's friends at her request- their husbands didn't dance. I quit because I could see the looks from their husbands. Its hard to be friendly with someone who can move with your wife in a way you can't. I didn't need that cheap ego thrill; it wasn't worth it.

I don't blame you for being uncomfortable. The omission of the little fact of a regular dance partner would bother the ****** out of me.

Can't... or won't? What gets me is when people don't even try.

Here's what I consider harmless dancing -- a bunch of us at a wedding, the girls wanting to get out on the dance floor, and most of the guys refusing (just like when the groom tosses the garter). We'd just go out, and if one or two guys wanted to join us, more power to them. Then we'd all do the Y M C A !!

I guess I'm too old to have seen/experienced the R&B hip-hop dance thing. I'm just into old time rock and roll. Give me Bob Segar any day!

Okay, I'm dating myself big time.

Again, the original poster can only control himself, not what his W does. I see no harm in him trying something a little outside his comfort zone. He might actually find he enjoys it. Personally, I don't see a life spent with his cars to be as fulfilling as one with his W.

OK, we talked some more and I found out that she saw this "dancing partner" at the club a week before and that he got her phone munber from the class listing at her school which is given out to everyone. He sent her a message because it was the Thursday night hip hop at that club they met at the week before. She did not know he was going to be their and as soon as she found out she told me.

So perhaps the first time they met up their it was to be a friend but she did not tell him to meet her again. He did pursue things by texting her and this is something that we need to discuss because he is probably interested beyond what he should. I have told my W that I trust her just not the men.

I have set a counseling session for the 2nd and this can be resolved between us. She is eventually going to go to the club without me and I am going to have to be strong enough to believe that she only loves me. She has said "remember, I married you".

I have thought about going dancing with her ever time, but I dont think I should force myself to spend all my time doing something I dont enjoy. Then I would lose contact with all my friends. When i do go with her occasionally I fear that I will find a situation that brings doubt and fear into my thoughts about the situation. You see, this trust also pushes the limits of my insecurities because of the trust I have to put into her commitment to me.

One other thing, her single sister that she goes with is younger and more attractive so she actually gets most of the attention from the guys. My wife ends up talking to them about her because they are interested in the sister. I have seen text messages from this guy you talks about trying to get attention from her sister. And my wife does not act flirty, it is not her nature, she is actually less effecntionate than me.

guy,

If I were you I'd tag along at least a time or two. If you are uncomfortable with what you see, you need to tell her so and why. How much more uncomfortable would you be worrying about what is going on?

I might rescind the above if she ceases ALL contact with her dancing partner, never takes his calls, never talks to him anywhere or can otherwise show you in some way that he means nothing. Telling you doesn't cut it; she has to show it to you.

But the problem isn't even him, it is the situation. SIL may be younger, more attractive and gets more attention, but there have been books written about how to pick up married women by pretending to show interest in one of their friends. It isn't the guy, it's the situation.

Living separate lives is never the secret to lasting marriage.

JMO

Mark

Where do you come up with this stuff? You aren't on any kind of meds are you?

We all come into this place with our own filters and experiences. Yours seems to have a theme of being neglected and wanting attention from your partner. But others are dealing with much more complex issues than that. Join your lying partner so she doesn't feel neglected doesn't quite cut the cheese on this one.

Oh My,
You ARE Slim, aren't you?

Ouch!

Hmm, I don't think that I ever said any words to the effect that are in quotation marks above. I think that I just didn't communicate very well my thoughts. Sorry.

My postings here and on the other thread are actually consistent. My point is that the couple should really discuss the problem and come up with a mutually agreeable solution. It could be for the guy to give up the porn or for her to accept his use of it. It could be for Guyguy's wife giving up going dancing, to let his W go dancing when the other guy goes about properly.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out that my posting could be interpreted as having double standard. I'll be more careful in the future in my writing.

TJ Alert!

Average guy,

for what it's worth, I REALLY LIKE YOU!!!!

(As much as you can like anyone on a message board).

I just feel like you are able to speak very bodly and confidently, and YET are quite humble when someone gives you feedback.

A true gentleman, in my opinion. I know a lot of people don't "get" you, but... I appreciate you a lot (even your sometimes unconventional approach. :-))

Nia , I wondered the same thing...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

(sorry guyguy)

Hi AG,
No, you never used those exact words.....i should have been clearer. sorry about that.
I do, however feel that you have said things very similar but i am not 1 to go dig up and respost your posts and argue about it.
I do feel your advice is pretty consistent. That was why i was a little thrown by your comments on this thread.

hi telly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't suggest forcing yourself to spend all your time doing something you don't enjoy either. But why are you pondering it to the extreme? Going occasionally doesn't mean spending all your time, nor does it mean losing contact with all your friends.

Fearing situations when you go occasionally, hmm, doesn't that mean those same situations might be happening when you're not there too? Not to build your paranoia or anything, but isn't it true? I really think the best solution is to occasionally take your W dancing. You don't necessarily have to go to that same place, ya know. But I would recommend discussing it and figuring out a little o' that for her and go as a couple. It's romantic.

Yes, she married you, but if she is letting another man fill her need for Recreational Companionship, somebody else is making deposits in her love bank. That needs to be you.

An example...one time my husband had tickets for a baseball game (only 2), so I couldn't go because who would watch the kids. So he offered the extra ticket to people at work. It so happened that a female responded first. I told him that I was fine with him going with a male, but I really didn't think it healthy for our marriage for him to go with a female...so he would not be spending Recreational Companionship with a woman. He did not go or he went by himself, I forget.
Now we do go to at least half a dozen baseball games a year together as a family, so he is not deprived of baseball. But he has a RC need, and it best be you that fills it!

How much trouble can a girl get herself into in the company of her own mother?

pieta,

My understanding is that Mom is free and single...

Whose mother goes out clubbing with her single daughter?

Mark

Mark,

I just cannot fathom a woman getting into much trouble in the company of her mother regardless of her mother's marital status.

However, I haven't been in a dance club since Jimmy Carter was President so I'm not even sure what "clubbing" means these days.

I never said that dancing was ALWAYS sexual. I said that dancing has sexual characteristics to it, or sexual "tones" if you want to say it that way.

For the most part, with the exception of things such as line dancing, dancing is preferred with a member of the OPPOSITE sex. Rarely do you see 2 men dancing with each other, especially R&B/Hip Hop, unless they have a relationship with each other. Neither will you see for the most part, 2 women slow-dancing/closely.

So...if dancing does not have a sexual tone to it, WHY is there a sexual preference to it? Does holding hands have a sexual tone to it? How about sitting somewhere with your arm around someone? I place dancing with a member of the opposite sex somewhere close to that.

Bottom line is this....Getting needs met from a member of the opposite sex, that normally a member of the same sex doesn't, is NOT healthy for a relationship no matter how you want to spin it.

If you will take the time to read the initial post, you will see:



Sorry, but I see sexual tones written all over that. I didn't say they were even considering sex, nor manipulating as you put it.

I would like for someone to give me a couple of examples of activities, where a member of the opposite sex is the preferred partner, that ISN'T sexual in nature. Because I can't think of any.

Well, the news that your wife is not very flirty is good.

How long have you guys been married again?

Here's a little lesson I learned that applies to your comments about about having to trust her:

It is POINTLESS to put effort into doing something which is not real. For example, there was a guy that came on here and wanted badly to know how her could force himself to trust his wife again. His wife had sent naked pictures of herself to her co-worker via her phone. Yet, as he explained, it was very obvious that his wife was continuing to be dishonest with him.

This man was spinning his wheels trying his hardest to find a way to trust his wife. Do you understand what I'm getting at? The cart was put before the ox. She needed to be trustworthy before he spent all this energy trying to trust her. He was totally waisting his time and going through a pointless excercise because the reality was that his wife had not gotton to a point that she deserved to be trusted.

I call this the "organic" nature of a relationship. A relationship is supposed to respond to goods and bads. When it's poked at or bad things are done to it, it's supposed to say "ouch!" When the organism decided it's bad to say "ouch" and ignores that it is being hurt, that's when the really unhealthy and bad things can happen.

So regardless of people that want to say there is no right and wrong-- only different perspectives, keep in mind that the truth of a situation does matter. If you are going to counseling to work on trusting your wife when in reality, she is untrustworthy, you are completely waisting your time.

There are a few questions that I need answered before I form an opinion.

1. What sort of place are they going to? Some places are real meat markets. If you have a pulse, the guys are going to hit on you. A lot. Even if you're dressed like an off-duty nun.
2. How often does your wife go without you?
3. How many hours of recreational time are you two getting together each week?
4. Are her mom and sister single? Women are competitive by nature, whether we admit it or not.

This is my own painfully honest experience. Dance clubs are the number one place I can think of for people of the opposite sex to get together. In my early 20s, I spent a lot of time in them. I did like dancing and socializing. I also enjoyed the admiration, the free drinks, and the hot guys. That's why I mostly quit going to them when I got married. We've been married for ten years and I can count the number of dance clubs that I've been to without him on one hand and have fingers left. Those times were for specific occasions with friends when he was out of town.

If I want to spend social time with friends, I usually prefer to go somewhere that has a low enough volume that we can speak to each other.

Most of us are here because we've learned that it's possible for nearly anyone to cheat. The best weapon we have is good personal boundaries. Unfortunately, it's a lesson usually learned the hard way. Those who feel that they can engage in any sort of situation and never be tempted have a high level of risk.

For the record, if some guy took the intitiative to use my phone number from a class roster like that, I'd be highly annoyed, not solicitous of his feelings. That's a big presumption.

My mother in law does adores me and thinks I have done great things for her daughter. My W has actually said "do you think my mom would let anything happen if she thought it might hurt you".

One thing that I'm not sure people caught was that this guy she danced with is a former classmate.

Is an old classmate not higher risk for an affair than even the common "hot" stranger? I've lost count of how many stories I've heard of how it all started out with www.classmates.com or some similar site.

I personally do not believe that she did not plan to dance with him again and then he found her phone number on a website and text messaged her. That story simply doesn't add up. How did he know it was her cell number? Because you can't txt a real number. I believe she gave him her phone number and so that is yet another lie of omition.

guyguy is in a potion to want to believe his wife. But I personally do not believe that she is being completely honest with him.

I would like to hear how often she goes dancing and what kind of atmosphere this place is as well.

I find this thread ery interesting as I am trying to deal with some similar issues in my M (my sitch) and in particular issues pertaining to the ability to trust (me) and trustworthiness (W).

I feel that my recent decision to seek counsel for my issues is a positive step toward improving my M. But I am far from sure that this will be enough, i.e. until and unless my W acknowledges that she has a role in this and a responsibility to help improve things there may be a limit to the amount of improvement that is possible. In other words, it is/should be a 50/50 deal.

I just read over your situation.

I do think you have valid reasons to be concerned and hurt by your wife's behavior. I know sometimes a spouse like that can make you feel that you are the one that is jealous and crazy and that other husbands would be cool with her behavior. And I am giving you validation that I think most men would have a problem with the behaviors you described. Remember.... if it talks and walks like a duck, there's a VERY good chance that it IS a duck.

I think it's honorable that you're trying to clean up your side of the fence. But, like I said... at the heart of it all is the truth. When ones efforts and understandings aren't working in harmony with the truth, they are waisting their time. It may yield personal improvement but it probably won't help the original problem that was attempted being worked on. And the real danger in this case is that you might be able to successfully train yourself to ignore red flags and to always aim to trust as she continues to be unfaithful. Training yourself to ignore red flags is psycologically unhealthy.

FYI. I went to a counselor a few times and told her everything as honestly as I could. She concluded I was paranoid and even offered medication as an option. Thank God I didn't pursue that option! But turns out wife really was cheating and did so multiple times with more than one man. So psycologists don't have the corner on the truth. Lots of times, you just have to trust your gut.

And I'll add another dynamic I see with guyguy.

If you look through posts like this... it's obvious the poster WANTS to believe their spouse isn't cheating.

15 people could come on and say "I think she's cheating". And one person will offer some kind of advice like "I think you have a disorder". The poster will TEND to listen to that one poster. It's because the poster is hoping against hope that their spouse is faithful and will cling to that advice.

Just a pattern I've noticed.

Agree - Thanks for the response and the validation. I am hopeful that IC will help and so on that basis it is the thing to do. I believe much of my W's behavior is a manifestation of issues that she has and for which I do not believe she is likely to seek help. I want her to be happy and not have to behave in the ways that she sometimes does but ultimately that is up to her. In the meantime I'll do what I can to improve.