Well I thought I'd start a recovery thread. Just about fuming.

This is my rant, just need to get it out of my system.

H (doesn't feel very D at this mo) doing night [censored] tonight so has been asleep all day.

I took the kids off to school etc adn then went to work. Finished at 1.15 came home intending to jump on the Xtrainer (which is being stored in my garage for my sis), ate my sandwich quick while having a quick browse on here.

My sis calls just as I'm taking my last bite to see if I'm going to see them (they live round the corner). She spent Sunday night and most of mon in hospital with 10month old with croup - a scary time.

I had spent that time very frustrated that I couldn't do anything to help so was keen to go and see them both. So I did. I not only helped them by taking babe for a long walk so that sis could recover sleep/catch up with her washing but got my exercise.

Picked kids up from school at 3 and went straight to swimming pool,got home at 5.

Came in to sulking H who was cooking tea as agreed so that he could get to work on time.

Full of DJ's about my attitude to family life and why hadn't I emptied the washing machine and dishwasher etc AOing all over the place.

I calmly explained my time but he wasn't interested.

He was v angry that I'd visited the MB website and has threatened to block it. I didn't rise to his rantings I just kept my cool and explained my point of view - not that he listened or cared. Apologised for not being able to read his mind about the jobs I was expected to do today.

We gave each other a peck good bye and then he had another huge huff and puff and sulk as he went (I'm guessing because I didn't go up and give him a huge hug and say "love you darling" Strange that I don't feel like huggin him when he has just yelled at me and called me names.) asked what I was doing tonight? To which I answered "band" and he huffed again.


Now I must add that this is a different band in a different town to the one that FOM goes to and H has never had a problem before and our recovery has been going swimmingly - I'm guessing he was put out because he wanted to phone later and discuss teatimes outburst and the real reason behind it.

I hate it when he gets angry and I feel tearful. Had I imagined in anyway that I might upset him by going to see my sick niece I wouldn't have done it.

Anyway, there. Rant over.

I have emailed him just to let him know how I feel and just explaining my day again (in nice polite, unconfrontational prose).


ST

Calm has descended. DH just phoned form work to apologise, even before he read my email. He has just read my email and it didn't annoy him.

Hooray! maybe we are getting better at this communicating thing.

and today we are still not quite right me and H have been talking and he thinks he has identified that he is frustrated about holding off on diy so that we can spend time together. I'm not sure how to get around that one.

and he has been taking out his frustrations on DS5 which is breaking my heart and making me really angry as I have to keep stepping in - he just argues with her and won't tolerate her getting upset


and then mum was diagnosed with an aggressive breast cancer today... her and dad have just been here playing scrabble with me

and DH is round with my BIL having a beer.

I was sad that he didn't offer to be with me this evening until 5 mins before he went

I dropped hints that i wanted him to stay but I didn't ask him - hoped he would offer. I think mum and dad came round so that I wasn't alone.

I didn't really want him to stay anyway because he had been so grumpy to DS

now i'm sad and I know who would have been available to talk to - but we won't go there

What do we do?
I did boob, fri when i got my text msg about my mum I didn't tell him- not deliberately but he wasn't there - our friends were and I didn't notice he wasn't, so he found out 10mins later when I was discussing it with the friends (another couple). That obviously hurt him and it was careless of me but I was reeling, I don't tink I'd prepared myself for the news.

All day yesterday I kept being told how crap I was handling the news just constant DJ and then he started having a go because I didn't have a full time job. Totally out of the blue - why pick yesterday when all we're trying to do is focus on mum and her needs and all of our needs as we come to terms with the journey ahead. 12 of us family went to the beach. I kept being patient and he just kept geting angry at me and in his words because he knows he's crapp and doesn't know how to handle me when i'm sad. I told him I just needed him to be there and for us just to get by being friendly to each other and the kids. Thing is I wouldn't have been outwardly sad if I didn't feel so destroyed by his constant outbursts and wanting to protect mum from our probs. We'd all been so chuffed at how well it's going.

I am trying to be positive, I keep listening, i keep giving him his chance. He's stressed about money, he's stressd about the house being untidy. AO after AO after AO and I just keep staying calm and stopping myself with DJs and trying to meet his ENs when he lets me near because I want this to work.

He's now callling me a mug for wanting to be with him. And this morning he threw my sons wee'd on pj's in my face and as I let my bottow lip wobble he came a grabbed them and stuffed them really aggressively under the pillow i was lying on whilst of course calling me names.

He has now apologised again, just that - a hug and I'm sorry. I appreciate both but when is he next going to attack and how do I get to the bottom of the prob???

This is how he was before the A. I'm stronger now, I'm not going down that route again but what do I do?

BTW he really doesn't like MBs anymore and appreciates what it has done for us with the A but doesn't want me reading anymore or posting.

ST

ST,

I'm sorry this is so hard right now. There are several other threads on the site that may be helpful for you like Looking4's. It seems like you had a rough M before the A but I can tell you that 18mo A confessed 3mo's ago, does not equal a BS who is recovered. I am sure your BH is still in incredible pain, I forget how the timeline is supposed to work but I would guess you have a long road ahead before this will be fixed.

Do you know what. I really wish I thought it was the A that is causing us the prob right now. He never shows any signs that that is what bothers him and I sometimes ask him if he wants to talk but he doesn't. He doesn't bring up the A in is AOs. And he is the type of person that would - he says it if it needs saying.

He has mentioned it once when I have tried to reassure him that he is giving me emotional support and he quite calmly with no malice or anger in his tone said - OM is much better than me at this, you should give him a call. No sarcasm. Maybe just a slight sadness because he didn't feel he could do the job. But he can - if he lets himself and I've told him that over and over.

This afternoon he has been trying to be nice, but I'm drained. I'm just not sure what is best for the kids and mum.

ST

You really have no clue how your husband feels about your betrayal do you?

'Band' should have been given up on D-Day!

Hey iam,

Thank you for your opinion.

I think I do have a grasp on the betrayal: through working through this, reading other BS posts and through reflection. Maybe DH is still BS foggy but he really does not seem even 10% as bothered as some of the posters here.

My H wanted me to continue at the band with OM initially - couldn't bear the thought of me giving it up. I had to keep stressing how important it was that I didn't go.

I discovered later that his huff about band that you quoted was because he knew that he would miss some of his tea break with the lads if we were to have our usual telephone catch up that evening - I arrive home from band at the same time.

Even if I wanted to give up this new band DH would not allow it and I would if he wanted me to. It is doing no harm at all.

DH will read this as he does all my posts

ST

staytogether,

I am concerned that your H has decided to take my path. I'm a BH, my WW was crazy during the A which I knew about from nearly the beginning. I expressed little anger since I was convinced she would leave and the children would lose there mother. Instead, I just closed her out of my mind and heart. Outwardly I was a model H, although her mother MIL realized what I was up to she did not. When I was in my plan I was completely unemotional about the A or the denials she kept issuing. In fact, I never mentioned it again until nearly 10 years later.

Thank you 6yl

I will keep this in mind. We have just had a big discussion about our priorities in life. He thinks we are incompatible because I want to spend time/money enjoying each others company and DD,DS. He wants to spend time and money on material things - home improvements, new car. Our agendas have always been pretty much the same except before children we could afford both time and money to pursue both of our objectives in life.

As part of this discussion I asked whether our inability to come together on this had anything to do with the A, but he keeps saying no, but he does have concerns that he doesn't measure up with the emotional support. I keep telling him that I wouldn't let him before and that now he can as long as he doesn't put pressure on himself to.

We have a stressful couple of weeks coming up as mum starts her treatment and we're due to go away for a weekend - our last not sure how many holidays have had lots of disastorous moments (he'd say they were all disastorous full stop but I'm more of a glass half full girl)

I think we will be able to negotiate but we are really finding it difficult to see where each other is coming from.

I hae tried to make him feel secure - he knows how determined i am to stay with him.

Any ideas what would have helped you to open up about it?

ST

ST,

For me, specific questions with open ended answers work best at prying me open. You know something like "Can you tell me how you think our lives will be when the children are grown?". I'm not good at direct lies but I'm freaking fantastic at bottling everything up. So if I was asked those kind of probing questions I would have given some clues.

I'm not sure how to get emotion out of him, I almost never show angry or hurt emotions and I am uncomfortable with expressing them. I usually remain calm (outwardly) until I can get off to the gym and blow off some steam. Of course, once you know me if I say I need to go do some sparring, then you will know I am angry or upset.

Thanks 6yl

Will try some of the open ended questions. H has no prob showing anger and resentment usually just whe it comes to the A.

Things are looking up -he's just sent kisses by email

ST

Hi staytogether,

I've caught up a bit on your posts. I see that you mentioned the DV before but it seems that because you linked it to the affair it was not focused upon.

Okay, so uncoupling it from the affair, what did it involve?

I understand the feelings of being too ashamed to talk about things. I have felt this way about events in my own marriage; not violence, but how bad things got between us at various times. We would not speak for days, and just bfeore the affair had not been intimate for two years. I only ever told one friend that I was having any kind of problems because we had to cancel lunch with her after I walked out the house and took the kids to a hotel for the night.

I see H has been to anger management classes and is doing really well. I don't know anything about strategies for his anger; I take it that "treatment" is lifelong? That, like an alcoholic, he is never "cured"? Would it be a mistake to think that he has conquered his problem and that you can argue normally again? (Not that you should argue ever again, now that you have Dr Harley to guide you!)

Thanks for following up over here SC

I think it is a misplaced outlet for stress. When he hits one of these moods it's like he is posessed for several days and everything - and I mean everything is wrong.

He has only struck me 2x in 3 years but he has also pinned me up and down more often and has threatened violence on several occasions and the verbal abuse was at times relentless.

During the A i felt in part responsible for his treatment of me which was why I didn't escape the M (depite the fact that it had started well before).

But in August I couldn't take any more and was going to leave - he begged me to stay and did more work and has been brill - until this last weekend...

I think I have been missing his need for admiration ( I think it is more of a priority for him than he thinks)

So he has been fine for 4 months whilst the A was going on and 3 months since dday.

I think you're right the anger does need constant work, but I can't find that support out there. I need to wait until he comes out of this dark one and suggest he does another session. He's totally horrified when he wakes out of it.
our needs are taken into consideration and have been trying to POJA. To be honest I think once LBs and ENs are being sorted there is very little arguing to be done.

ST

st, you might have been asked this question before, but I have not read everything you've written yet:

You describe moods that come in cycles. To someone who knows nothing about mental illness, that sounds like depression. Have you both considered this possibility?

Are you telling me that you've lived with abuse (verbal) that lasts for days at a time and that you can do nothing to shake him out of? For how long has this been going on?

Thanks SC. Yeah that is the conclusion we've come too.

I knew it very very early on in our relationship - I think I saw it as a challenge (doh!) In the early years it was infrequent. As the pressure piled on - career, home ownership, children, house moves it was becoming more frequent up until last August.

We both have a sneaky suspicion that he maybe bi-polar but that takes such a long time to get a diagnosis and I'm not sure whether we'd be any better off once we got that.

Yes, I do live with abuse that last for days at a time and all I ccan do is be patient, keep it away from DS and DD and keep myself positive and intact.

ST

st, I'm an absolute ignoramous here but that is not all you can do, nor, surely, what you should be doing. You cannot hope to keep this away from your son and daughter until...when? Until they are grown up and out of the house? - and what about your need for a safe existence and happy marriage?

Surely if you got a diagnosis, even if it fell short of bipolar, you would be better off because your H would get mood-stabilising treatment.

This is not really a post-affair issue (and I'm useless at helping people with that, anyway). However, I know that there are people here who have faced this issue with a spouse. I'm sure you can get some knowledgeable advice here if you put out a shout - perhaps start a quick thread on GQII asking people with bi-polar experience to come to this one.

st, think that if you told H's doctor about the physical and verbal abuse you have lived with, he or she would arrange a speedy referral to a psychiatrist. You owe it to your children to ensure your own safety, and a GP would understand that.

I know I can't keep it away form them but maybe we can try to show them how to cope with it effectively. We do try to explain things to them - if they need to know. For now I think i'll avoid your second question, but thank you for asking.


I think I do see it as intertwined with the affair although I know it is wrong to justify the A with DV, I do struggle to separate them.


We did do. We went together last August. The Doc agreed he was depressed and stressed and sent him to the counsellor who saw him and put him on a computer course to deal with stress depression and anger. He was s'posed to go back to the counsellor after the course but because he was "better" didn't.

I've suggested he goes back but he won't. Says he doesn't want to see counsellors for the rest of his life. I can put up with it or f*** off. He says he's learning to deal with it much better and they are decreasing in number.

Thing is the bits in between are good - we are a fantastic team we work together and we achieve. He is amazing with the children and really makes an effort to do his bit.

I want him to be better - I guess having an A didn't help him or me. I want the marriage to work.

I so want the marriage to work and maybe me trying so hard is putting the pressure on him and contributing to the length of this bout.

I like to work at things, I like to think I'm doing everthing I can - maybe I need to try and see when everything is just far too much.

ST

st, forgive me for not replying sooner. I had no internet access yesterday.

I think you must get a more active discussion going with people who have lived with bp in the family - not just with spouses. I have read many threads here about this issue. I'm good at finding and reading old threads so when I have time I will bump one for you.

When I said that the bp/depression was not a marriage-building issue I meant that the treatment of it was not among the Harley writings, but you are completely correct about its relationship to your marriage pre- and post-affair.

The non-MB discussion is about how bp/depression affects interaction within the family. There is also the issue of whether depression should be treated with drugs as a matter of routine, or whether drugs should be avoided in favour of exercise, counselling and other therapies. Certainly if your GP tries to use a non-drug approach then that could be a good thing. I certainly would not condemn him for having sent your H to a counsellor as a first step, last year.

However, I agree entirely that the bp/depression and related DV has everything to do with your marriage and the affair - and the recovery you are attempting now.

I just cannot see how you can successfully give your H the kind of recovery you would like to give him if he is too ill to receive it. I don't think it can be enough for you to get on well during his good periods; the down periods sound frightening to me, even though he seems to have done well with anger management. NOT hitting you is surely not the only issue, vital though that is. It sounds as if he has not hit you for months and you do not fear it too much nowadays, and yet you and the children have a miserable time for days while he is down. Surely no marriage should just adjust itself to those circumstances.

I understand and agree with your point about showing your children that difficulties can be coped with and overcome. I think we're all trying to do that in overcoming the affairs in our marriages, and many of us (like me) are unlearning bad behaviours such as shouting, rudeness and nagging. If I can show my children that happiness comes in overcoming marital difficulties, and not from walking away or shutting down, I shall be delighted.

Sorry, I've suddenly got to go, but I hope you can see where I was planning to go with this!

Back later.

Hi Sc

Please don't apologise.



Thank you, I'll pull my finger out and have a look too.

I'm not sure whether I'm strong enough at the mooment to run with this - feel like being a bit ostrich like. He is being ever so friendly and apologetic again now and looking forward - something that he has been totally incapable of for the last week.

It just seems so easy to forget about it again til next time.

I will make a docs appt. though. He doesn't want to carry forward with this himself but he didn't object to me going to the doc to talk about him. That reminds me I never did get round to making that hair appt today.

Thanks for listening SC

If you don't make that hair appt I'm going to be really cross with you. Good hair is very important in a woman's life!

I'm not sure whether I should worry about you a little or a lot, st. I have the impression that you are "further out" than we think, and "not waving but drowning".

Are you frightened of your H sometimes, still? Are you frightened about living with these cycles for a long time in the future? If so, do you have adequate help to cope with the situation?

I don't think that you can continue to hide from H when he is down and give thanks when he comes up again. It is wrong for you and your children to be subjected to that.

You came here, commendably, to talk about restoring your marriage after your affair. You have taken the 2x4s that were dished out because you no longer wanted to be an adulterer. I applaud you for that.

However, your H's moods and violence have not really been addressed because of your affair. You had a difficult and sometimes dangerous marriage before you made the choice to have an affair. Now, having thrown the hand grenade of an affair into an already volatile marriage, I wonder if you feel that you cannot press for help with H's depression and violence because of what you did.

I don't know much about dealing with depression and violence, but I don't think that your affair means that you should accept the state of your marriage (in the down times, anyway).

Were you completely open about the verbal and physical abuse when you spoke to H's GP and got counselling, or did you focus on the moods but not the violence? I suspect the latter because of the fear that your children would be seen as "at risk". Think about this again, please; did you do the same thing that you described doing in marriage counselling?

I'm not suggesting that when you next talk to H's GP you blurt out that you are really scared that he will attack the kids! I just think that if he or she realised what you really face during a down cycle the GP would arrange a referral to a specialist.

I have a bad effect on threads that I participate in. I wish your other posters would come back!

Thanks SC

I'm waving - please don't worry about me. I'm not frightened anymore but I do dread living with these cycles, it's hard work.

I will reply properly tomorrow, we have friends coming tonight - just arriving.

I'm sure someone out there must have some experience of dv. I'd love to find just one story of a couple that have worked through this and survived without any further incidences into retirement. We are both tenacious and intelligent and are confident we can change. I would just love to here of even 1 other couple that have done it. (At the moment I don't want to hear the negative stories).

Would love some more input someone, please

ST

I do know of a long-term poster. She is the BW and her marriage is much improved but there were a number of incidents. I don't know what the board etiquette is for naming people. I haven't seen her post for a week or two, but she is still active and I will try and track her down.

Enjoy your weekend, st.

st,

My husband has been recently diagnosed with bipolar. He has been on depression medication for a couple years but only because I talked to the our doc about it and she convinced him to try it. I completely understand the up and down moods. Please, please try to convince your husband to get some help for at least his childrens sake.

I really don't want to see your situation come to the point that ours did, my husband actually had a suicide attempt planned when I stepped in to stop it. However, if he wouldn't have given me the clues, he might be dead.

He had an awful childhood with all kinds of abuse. I tried to get him to talk to a counselor for years, but he never would. He was too proud to get help, but trust me that he needed it. If fact, when he was in the hospital after being suicidal, he wrote down "I AM FINALLY GETTING THE HELP I NEED".

He has been on additional medications since and they have also added a mood stablizer for bipolar. Trust me when I say that there is definately a huge difference. My husband has never been physically abusive, but would get very angry at times.

He needs to seek help for this as soon as possible for his childrens sake, they do not need to grow up in fear of their fathers moods.

Take care, Nicole

H always knew about the affair and I think that was what made him so angry and miserable in the 6months-year leading to August. Since then he accpeted that FOM was giving me something that he couldn't/didn't feel able to give me - although H and I were both still denying the A. In a strange way that made it easier for him and he was less stressed and he knew he had to regain control of himself if he wanted me to stick around. I need to make him feel loved and wanted while I get some help - I just need to make sure that he feels secure before I get help - I can't push him - he sees it as DJ and I guess it is. THat is why I need to get the help.



When I'm down after an episode and during - there is no thinking straight. I will not accept the state of my marriage - we both continue to work at it.


Yes we were open about it, but H was slightly suicidal at the time so that was the priority then.


He's bounced back now - concerned that I might give up on him. I feel tired, a bit down and reallys truggling to get motivated. I've got an essay to be done today.


At the moment I'm thinking this is the first down patch he's had since we've tried to end the A, it lasted a week but he wasn't violent. This is the worse thing that I've ever thrown at him and probably one of the worst things that will be thrown at him -maybe we have come out the other side.

I will remain hopeful, ever the optimist. But more than hope we will both act.

ST

Dear Nicole

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me - it gives me hope. I'd love him to take more ownership - he is quite happy for me to do all the leg work and he'll go along for the ride. But I don't want him to resent me for doing it in the future. I guess it's the chance I have to take - it can't really carry on. Were you able to get the meds quite quickly? I've heard it can take years to get a diagnosis. How rapid were your Hs cycles? Does he still get enthusiastic about things on meds?


THis is why I want to put an end to. I don't want to beg/plead with the children to help me tidy up because daddy will be home soon with that nasty sick feeling in my stomach. We don't want to be always wondering "will this set him off?"

ST

Hi ST,

SugarCane asked that I look in on your thread because my father had Bipolar Disorder...Bipolar disorder manifests differently in different people, so my experiences won't necessarily mirror yours completely - there are different types of Bipolar and even different degrees of it...To give you some idea of what we dealt with, my father began cycling when I was 10 years old (I'm 39 now) - or at least that is when he began to have episodes major enough to be noticed...His episodes of mania came along every 2 to 3 years and would last for a period of 6 months...The stories I could tell you would likely curl your toes...During those times violence was quite prevalent...He passed away in June 2007. He had a heart attack during a manic episode. He was unmedicated...

What Nicole told you about your not wanting to let your children live around his moods is significant, because what happens in situations like that is the same thing that often happens with children of alcoholics...They wait to let others determine their mood for them - ie: "Let's see how dad is today before I can decide how I will be." It is unconcious of course...While this makes for very intuitive children, it is not so great for them in becoming their own person...

I also see you struggling to separate your affair from his possible illness...Those are indeed very separate things...While I certainly understand vulnerability being created in a Bipolar household, it's still no excuse for having poor boundaries and choosing an affair...See, I watched my mom continue to have iron clad boundaries regarding this no matter how badly my father behaved...My mom, bless her heart, held fast to her convenant with God and commitment that she made to my dad when she married him - she never had an affair - even though my father did TERRIBLE things to her - stuff like holding her at gunpoint, drawing blood by hitting - (he was oh so sorry on the rare occasions that that happened - "it was an accident" - you know what? It really WAS an accident too, but see he had so little control over himself in his blind rages - oh now he loved her dearly, odd as that sounds, but it only takes a moment for permanent damage to be done - she could so easily have been killed), nasty bruises and even violent marital rape - and more...So I've seen it done and know that it can be...meaning remaining faithful even during the worst of situations...I won't keep hammering you on that, but I wanted you to know that your affair, as all affairs are, was caused by poor boundaries on your part, not by your husband's treatment of you, okay?

When your husband spoke to his doctor, was Bipolar Disorder specifically discussed? Is your husband willing to see a psychiatrist? That is where he would need to go for diagnosis...And I understand that he doesn't want to go to counseling for life, but if he is determined to have Bipolar Disorder, that would have to be a MUST and I'll tell you why...Medication is IMPERATIVE in treating Bipolar Disorder, and one of the symptoms of that disorder is not wanting to take the meds...ESPECIALLY when they are feeling better...In the book An Unquiet Mind: A Memoir of Moods and Madness, Kay Redfield Jamison explains that there is no pill that can convince you to take a pill, so therefore counseling in conjunction with meds is a MUST for someone with Bipolar Disorder...That is a GREAT book, btw...Jamison is a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine and also has Bipolar Disorder herself...

Gosh ST, I've done quite a bit of rambling without too much of a point in places I'm afraid...Please feel free to ask me anything you would like regarding Bipolar Disorder and I'll do my best to provide you with an answer...Can you give me other "symptoms" besides just mood swings? Is there rapid/pressured speech, grandiose delusions, a cadence of sorts to his words? Anything you can think of...little quirks that only appear during these "cycles"???

Mrs. W

Mrs W, I'm convinced that you're an angel. Thank you for helping when I asked.

st,

Were you able to get the meds quite quickly? I've heard it can take years to get a diagnosis. How rapid were your Hs cycles? Does he still get enthusiastic about things on meds?

My husband was put on bipolar meds shortly after he was released from the hospital. I am not sure if he was able to get diagnosed faster due the severity of is situation or not. However, if your husband is suicidal then he needs to get help before he does something you will all regret. If you need to, take control yourself by calling help when he is suicidal. Will he admit to a doctor or police that he is? If not, then find a way show them. If he is a harm to himself or others, they should put him on some kind of hold and get him help. Trust me, it was the hardest thing in my life to do, but I had to call the police and have them take my husband in and it was awful. But, we are both so glad now that I had the strength to do what I needed to do.

As far as my husbands bipolar goes, he does have cycles however he is very good at holding things in so they are not as apparent as others with bipolar are. Yes, he gets very enthusiastic about things now. He is finally being involved with our children the way he should. I am not sure if it is all due to the medication or just part of hitting rock bottom and finally getting help, but he is definately different. His moods are much more stable since he go the bipolar medication.

Also, I grew up on a household with a father that had an awful temper. He never hit, but that scared feeling you get inside as a child is awful. Your husband needs to understand that and get some help for his childrens sake.


If there is anything else I can help you with, please let me know.

Hi Mrs W,

Thank you very much for stopping by and sharing your experience of BP, the only information I have is of our own research it is very helpful to have some insight where people are actually involved and can give first hand experience.




I can see this happening already - when he is miserable DD is very loving and cheerful and kind to her bro when he is angry and irriatable she is quite quiet



At the time of the A I know I used it as an excuse. I don't now, if I did, I would be looking for my next AP.



I want to do everything for my marriage but I want a commitment form my H too. I'm not going to stick aound being bullied forever. I admire your mothers staying power and commitment to her beliefs depite the horrors she was suffering, I wouldn't have stayed around in those circumstances. I don't have a covenant with God, just with my husband.



It wasn't specifically discussed - i will when I go this week or when ever I can get an appt.
He seems to cycle rapidly and I'd say he was hypomanic - he wants to build a mansion, he spends money we haen't got, we recently had a new kitchen, I wanted to buy what we could afford. He argued that we should spend over 2x as much as I wanted to and we could afford. The loan repayments are really tough. in these periods he talks rapidy and over me, other people have noticed him talking quickly too. As this phase sort of moves on he then enters the aggressive and irriatable phase, where the tiniest things drive him insane and I become a jibbering wreck which winds him up even more. Then enters the depression where he realises what he has done.

I did 3 online test on his behalf yesterday - they all came out positive for further investigation into BP. He did one of them which said he wasn't. Am I looking for a diagnosis to excuse his behaviour and building up his score subconsciously or is he trying to keep his score down?

Thanks again

ST

Thank you for answering my questions Nicole, and giving me hope that we can aim for some stabiltiy. I really hope your H continues to make good progress and enjoy life.

I remember that scared feeling too, it shapes the way I try to behave with my children - Iknow H experienced too. He doesn't direct serious anger or real aggression at then just irritation. The fear they get is from mine. I'm not scared of being hurt just of the yelling and verbal abuse.

Thanks for your question answering offer

ST

Today I'm tired. Worn down. Lonely. I'd like someone else to take responsibility. I'd like someone else to make the effort. I'd like a hug and I'd like to feel loved.

I'm sending you a virtual hug, st.

I'm sure it's harder for you to see because you're right in the thick of it, but I can see that progress is being made already. You are getting advice from experienced people here, and you are not going to struggle alone with the bp issue any longer. Make that GP appointment and make sure you get him or her to understand what has been raised here.

Quick threadjack:

Hi abm. It's good to hear from you. I was worried about you when you came here, and I was sorry to hear of your H's diagnosis. However, I'm glad that you feel things are under control now. Perhaps you could update your thread?

st, I've been thinking about what Mrw W wrote and your responses to some parts. st, I know that it is hard to make meanings clear when we put our responses in writing, with limited space, so I realise I might have misunderstood you. However, when I read Mrs W I did not hear her say that you, or anyone, should remain married no matter what, because you have made a covenant (with God, in her and her mother's cases). I read her to say that if you decide to stay married, and while you do, even if it is only on a day-to-day basis, you should honour your marital commitment and not have an affair.

Mrs W suggested that, even for someone who has made a covenant with God, the marital commitment can be ended by the spouse who is the victim of adultery. This means that there are sometimes ground for breaking the covenant with God.

Mrs W did not say so, but many Christians also see abuse as as providing grounds for ending the covenant, if the abused spouse wishes it to end.

I'm not actually trying to discuss religion with you st; I'm trying to point out that Mrs W did not say that the covenant should be kept no matter what. I understood the example of her mother to show that, as long as her mother decided to remain married, she did not use her H's abuse as an excuse to behaviour immorally herself. She didn't have to stay with her H through his abuse but while she did stay, she did not have the right to have an affair, and she did not give herself permission to do so.
Of course you deserve a commitment to extraordinary care from your H; he should honour the commitment that he made to you on your wedding day, and he should not allow his depression to excuse himfrom that commitment. the hard thing about his illness, as I am beginning to learn, is that he can't be forced to seek treatment. However, somehow, between the counselling and your talking to him when he is "up", he must be brought to see that he cannot ask you to live with him as he is, and he should not be harming (emotionally) his children as he is doing. He must see that treatment is not just for himself, so that he feels better, but so that he can honour his commmitements to you and the children. If he will not do this then of course you must not "stick around being bullied for ever". You did not sign up to that when you got married and your children certainly must not be brought up in that environment.

In your case, st you have not made a covenant with God but you have made a covenant to be faithful and to love, honour and cherish. Until you decide to end that covenant you should honour it, and if and when you end the covenant you must do so publicly and legally, by divorcing. You must not end it in your mind by saying that H puts nothing into the marriage therefore the marriage is ended and you can stop honouring those vows. When people decide that the covenant is ended in their hearts, even though they have not told the world at large that this is the case, they allow themselves to indulge in all sorts of morally relative behaviour that hurts other people.

As a BS, I also want to point out that you may not decide that since your marriage is over in your heart, you have the right to have a relationship with somebody else's husband (not that I think you are planning to do so again! But you did so before). Even if someone tells you that his marriage is over in his heart, it is not over in fact, and you will very likely be hurting his wife by becoming involved with her husband.

You made a public and legal declaration of marriage and until you undo that on whatever grounds, you should not have an involvement with another man.

I hope that you can see that I am not bashing you, st; I really admire you for coming here and I like you a lot! However, you came here for advice and you were giving the best from Mrs W, who is a FWW herself. I'm just trying to add my BW's perspective.

I do think that your H's depression (which sounds so like bi-polar from your last post) is a serious problem for your marriage and for the children, and it must be urgently diagnosed and treated. On depression, Dr Harley says this:

Whenever a spouse I counsel for marital problems suffers from severe depression, my first item of business is to treat the depression, not the marital problems. The treatment, however, is much simpler than most people think. Anti-depressant medication is the ticket. It greatly relieves, if not eliminates entirely, a depressive state so that the spouse I counsel can succeed in meeting the other spouse's emotional needs. As his depression is lifted, he seizes opportunities both in his marriage and at his job, that makes him more successful. In the end, his self-esteem is restored because he finds himself successful in achieving his life's ambitions. I do not believe that counseling to improve self-esteem, apart from showing people how to be successful, ever really improves self-esteem.

What to do with a depressed spouse

If your H will not listen to reason and seek treatment then of course you should not stay and be bullied, but you must determine to act morally yourself until your marriage is over - and even then do not enter a relationship with a man who is legally married.

Ok, SC, I don't think you did misunderstand me but I think I chose to look at MrsWs post differently (I see God mentioned and I become defensive). I see now as you do. I agree I should honour my marital commitment and not have an affair and now understand what MrsW was saying.


I agree totally, this was always my thought before i got married and I have now recovered myself enough to realise that this has to be the way now. I can not hae my actions hurting anyone else.


I really agree with this, so many wonderful BS have helped me out here and made what I did so real, that I would feel that I was personally insulting all of you if I was so stupid and selfish again. It ain't gonna happen.




Thank you SC, i can see that this is not a bashing, although it prob is deserved and thank you for highlighting Harley's thoughts on depression.

Sorry MrsW too.

H just asked what I was up to. I told him I was still fighting for him. He told me not to bother. It does break my heart but I know it isn't the real him speaking.

We'd planned to do an exercise DVD together tonight - he's told me to go for a run with the girls instead.
We're s'posed to being having a day out together tomorrow - just the two of us, I can't deny it - I am scared that away from the kids I am going face a torrent of abuse all day.

Keep thinking positive thoughts... Keep thinking positive thoughts... We'll have a great day...We'll have a great day


ST

Excellent posts SugarCane!!! Exactly!

See this is where I struggle in giving advice regarding Bipolar Disorder...I see very clearly MANY times where my mother should have drawn appropriate boundaries regarding my father's refusal to take medication...And yet, I also respect greatly her deep commitment to him, God and her vows..."In SICKNESS and in health" come to mind of course...

I will tell you that MOST people in my mother's situation would NOT have stayed...Many, many people with Bipolar Disorder are left by their spouses because their behaviors are just too much for most people to handle...And it's FRUSTRATING...MADDENING...HEARTBREAKING...The whole enchilada...See, most folks with Bipolar Disorder are just these wonderful, brilliant, engaging people...When they aren't cycling you WANT to be near them...they are MAGNETS...Bright lights of this world...But when they are cycling the opposite is true and they can suck the very life right out of anyone near them...It is a huge dilemma...

But YES, what you say is true, while ST is married to her husband honoring fully that commitment is imperative to all involved...

ST, to answer your question regarding your husband's filling out that online test...Yes, he probably - very probably did underestimate what is going on with him...IF he is diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, you will learn that it is one of the most cunning afflictions around...I watched my father fool many highly trained professionals...almost as if he had a bizarre on and off switch somewhere within himself...ugh...I'm sorry, my experiences with Bipolar Disorder make me a grim one to talk to at times...I think my dad was extreme in many ways and you might be best served by talking with someone like coachswife who herself has Bipolar Disorder and does choose to stay medicated...Putting a call out to her might be a great idea for you actually...She is also a FWW...My dad was easier to talk to and reach when he was in a depressed state...THEN he could more easily be convinced to get help, because then HE felt bad...mania, and most especially hypomania, can at times feel very good and really it's pretty easy to understand why someone wouldn't want to take meds that would take that feeling away...

A little more about my mom...She DID eventually have to divorce my father on paper because of the many crazy financial things he had done, but also and more importantly, because when he became violent she had no way of getting him out of the house while they were still married...because it was just viewed as a "domestic call" and unless there was blood the police could not remove him...It was a crazy way of life for sure...There were 3 times that we had him involuntarily committed - ugh, those were especially hard because they would take him to the state mental hospital...I can't begin to describe the horror of those experiences to you...

Bottom line, if he is diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder I will tell you what my boundary would be...NO MEDS = NO MARRIAGE...Bipolar Disorder worsens with age...meaning the episodes come more often and are more severe...Knowing what I know, I could not live that way ever again...

Gee, this feels like an unhelpful post...that is not my intent, but maybe why I should keep my mouth shut regarding issues of Bipolar Disorder...:teef:

Mrs. W

P.S. SugarCane, lol about the "angel" comment...you better keep that on the "down-low" lest my reputation around here get ruined!

Another reason I worry about giving advice regarding UNDIAGNOSED Bipolar Disorder to you ST, is that I am concerned that you may still be foggy and telling you this stuff gives you rationalizations and justifications to not work on your marriage...I worry that perhaps YOU are exaggerating your husband's behavior because, let's face it, WWs are NOTORIOUS for using the "abused wife" card...

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh...I don't mean to sound cruel, but since I am a FWW I do know how that mindset works...

I'm not that familiar with your story...Could you fill me in a bit? How long was your affair? When was dday? And how long has NC been in effect?

Mrs. W

While you're at it, st, could you explain about your statement that H knew all along of the affair. What did he know and how?

My A was 18 monthsish, dday was oficially 1st Jan 09, NC a few weeks later. Sometimes I am slightly foggy but I never want OM. I am determined to work on my marriage - I'm not looking for excuses to give it up, I'm looking for hope that we can make it work.I played the abused wife card during the A. I'm not now. I want help for my H and M I know that my A was down to my poor boundaries and I was a cake eater.


You can be harsh, question me and question me - I need to make sure for myself and keep check on my own progress.

SC - I told h of just about every meeting - I left a lot of text messages on the phone for him to see, I talked about OM and asked through out whether he minded thought we were too close. I confessed 2x that I thought I was getting too friendly. Although bothered he didn't ask me to stop just ease off a bit- which I did. If only wish we'd found MB before.

ST

I sense a bit of drowning here, and I worry about you.

You've described the last few days as as turning point, heading towards an "up" cycle, and yet you also write like this. How "up" is "up", really, if this goes on?

st, you cannot live like this.

Could you do something for me? Could you write a list of the things that people here have suggested you do (like get a GP appointment and really deal with the depression and abuse during the consultation) and tick them off when you have done them? Some of them involve reading books, for example. How about making a deadline by which to order them, or look for them in the library?

I imagine your OU enrolment gives you rights to use academic libraries near you? This might be useful in reading about the condition.

I'd like to say something else about the marriage covenant:

I too have made a non-religious covenant. I have now lived with my H's decision to rewrite the terms of our agreement and decide that having sex with someone else was allowed, since he gave himself justification is his own mind, for whatever reason. (His reasons basically come down to "because I could; I had the perfect opportunity because it was nearly undetectable; she instigated it; she is beautiful.) No reasons would be acceptable to me of course because he did not seek my agreement and give me the same rights that he took for himself - not that I would have given my agreement, or taken the rights!

The point is that I could give myself justification for acting as if my covenant is over; what better demonstration of its ending could there be than his lying with another woman, and telling her he loved her and that he did not love me? And I could give myself the right to behave as I please. I could say that what was fair for him is fair for me. I think that a lot of people I know would support me.

I don't think my children ever would, though.

I know affair behaviour to be wrong, so I keep my boundaries cast iron, consciously so now that I feel so vulnerable and have a sense of entitlement. I take no lifts in cars with male colleagues. I do not go for coffee, much less lunch, with them. I do not talk about my marriage with any man. I do not go to bars without my H. I've never kept in touch with old boyfriends but if one approached me now via the internet, I would apply MB rules to the situation (i.e. run - fast). I've probably got the biggest sense of resentment about my H's affair of anyone you're likely to meet, and because I know that makes me vulnerable, I apply boundaries at all times.

I couldn't face my children if I did to them what my H's OW did to hers, and let them find out that Mum slept with someone who wasn't Dad because she was miserable and badly treated (not that OW was badly treated - but she would probably say she was). I won't to do to a married woman what OW did to me, so I apply boundaries even when I don't feel like it, and I love the feeling of dignity and self-respect that doing so brings me. I know that adultery won't make me happy.

Let' talk about running sometime. I did 4.5 miles yesterday at a shocking 5.5 mph (I have a GPS watch that gives me all those details) and I'm out again tomorrow. I'm sure a stripling like you does better than that!

I'll make that list SC and get on with it. We ordered a book on anger management for men last week, looks good - maybe we can get on and use it while sorting everything else

I went for that run and feel a million times better. I came back to a H who had read the days posts and now seems with me again - looking forward to a nice day out tomorrow. Let's hope it is. Funny - he won't let me talk but he will read on here.

First job in the morning to make that docs appt. and the one to fix the windscreen.

ST

Hooray!!! A good day, all day. Still the evening to go but I think this might now be the up.

Have made a docs appointment - couldn't get one witht the doc i want til the 24th, but it's worth waiting to see her as she has some history. H is keen for meds - thinks it will truly help him.

Thanks all for your support.

ST

How are things going, ST?

I think that the doctor's appointment was today. How did it go?

Please don't disappear, st. I'm hoping for your marital recovery.

I'm not disappearing.

I am wondering why I'm trying though.

We had a good weekend away with friends - no nastiness and certainly lots of friendliness but no real closeness - we didn't feel connected.

I was working tues morning (we came back mon night), so H did the unpacking with DS as childminder has sick child. I came home form work at lunchtime (DS now at preschool), we went grocery shopping which was fine and then came back and he had a minor fit that I hadn't put my plate away after lunch and was instead checking email.

I rode out the storm for 10 mins and then he was going to collect kids. I walked into town for the docs appt. I came back with a spring in my step - the doc seemed to think that BP was mre than plausible and asked to see H so that she could refer him to psych team.

I walked throught the door - the 3 of them looked very solemn, DS saw me and burst into tears, closely followed by DD.

DS wailed "daddy shouted at me". So I asked the kids what they had done - they had been pushing their food around the table, let them know that that wasn't a good thing to do and then tried to reassure them and comfort them. DS can occasionally make a fuss over nothing but really did seem distraught and DD has an exceptionally stiff upper lip. I can only assume they felt exceptionally hard done by and prob scared and total relief at seeing me.

H is now refusing to see the doc and doesn't want tablets or treatment ( I couldn't get an appointment with her for another month). WE haev barely spoken since and he is going out of his way to be awkward or has possibly hit a depression again. Falling asleep on the sofa - staring catatonically at me as I cook tea, hoover, mop floors etc

Through all this and all my efforts with him he just doesn't seem interested in me unless it's because I've done something wrong.

So I am feeling exceptionally exceptionally alone. I don't feel I can talk to anyone - I need our friends to support us as a couple and don't want them to lose their opinion of him and the family have so much to contend with at the mo anyway ( and not just mum's health). My friends have a lot on their plates at the mo too and I'm not a moaner but I feel like one

I really do think that if i could get for the house what I could have done 18months ago I would put an end to our misery. I can't function at all when he is around at the moment.


I did a very bad thing today aswell - I unblocked FOM on FB only to find that he's blocked me. Just wanted someone that knows me to talk to.

THing is I guess H will read this and he prob. won't care.

Why am I bothering? The light seems to have gone

Quoting L4 from RooGirls thread"I became so independent, that it turns out I didn't need my H for anything, or so I thought. And you know what? He sensed that. So he didn't offer me help and often wasn't there for me. We grew apart. I saw it as him not caring for me, he saw it as me not wanting or needing him in my life. These are not the makings for a healthy relationship.

With encouragement from MB folks, I've let my guard down. I've allowed my vulnerabilies to show to my H, and I've asked him for help. I've shown my appreciation for the little things and the big things so he knows I notice what he does for our family and me. I'm not being whimpy or defenseless for I am a grown woman and a mother, but I am now humble, completely honest, and much more open to him with my fears, desires, and needs. And his responses have been positive. I trust my H now like I haven't in years."

Am I in a position to show my vulnerability?? Can I do this??

Hi st,I’m glad you’re still here, although sorry to read your latest developments.There are a number of themes in your life, and I would not pretend to have expertise with most of them.

There is what seems increasingly like bp in your H. I read what Mrs W said about medication being crucial. Having read about how upset your children were the other day, I would urge you to insist that your H seeks treatment. It is seriously damaging for your children to live with a father that has these episodes. You are responsible for your children’s emotional wellbeing and physical safety. Your H suffers from diminished responsibility when he is affected like this, and you must taker action to stop his adverse behaviour from directly affecting them.

There is the threat of violence that seems to be associated with your H’s mental state. He seems to be refraining from violence quite well just now, but I would not rely on that continuing if he does not receive medical treatment.

There are the issues about spending time together. I read your “BH buy into MB?” thread for the first time today, and I can see that this is a big problem. You need to spend at least 15 hours per week together, alone, in activities that deposit units into each of your Love Banks.

All these issues affect how you feel about your marriage, and rightly so, but for now I want to have strong words with you about this:


st, I’ve live with an H who strung out contact with his OW for 21 months after 2 day, and I have read a lot here. I understand how hard it is to give up the high that contact with your AP affords. However, I am talking to you now as a BW in the hope that I can stop you from inflicting any more damage on someone whose marriage you have already disrupted.

St, please do not engage in this degrading affair again. Attempting contact with FOM was not just a means of talking to someone that knows you. Your sister knows you. You have friends that know you. You could have come here and talked about your urge to contact FOM. There were other avenues open to you if you wanted to talk about your marital worries. You tried to contact FOM because you wanted to get the feelings you were missing since the EA ended. This was an attempt to restart the affair. Please honest with yourself about that.

Please leave FOM alone unless and until you and he are both divorced, should it come to that. Please do not continue to wreck his wife’s life as you have done already. How do you think she would feel if had you made contact and she discovered that you and her husband were talking again? Do you think you should make decisions about how she lives her life? Your secretly talking to her H forces her to live in a condition that she hasn’t chosen; that of sharing her husband. You have no right to make choices about her life like this. If the affair resumes, she might well leave her H. Do you think you have the right to affect her marriage and future like that? You don’t, st.

I am writing to you from my experience as a BW. If a WS comes to MB, as opposed to TOW or other sites, they are offered the experiences of BSs from which they are invited to learn. Please learn from mine. I get very upset about the BW in the background because that is what I was. My marriage ended the day my H decided to abandon his commitment to me and our children and begin an affair. Two people took decisions about MY LIFE and did not make me party to them. I have had to start from scratch building a new marriage. That might be a good thing in the long run, as others here have found, but that should not have been anybody’s call but mine and my H’s. It should not have been his OW’s, and the BW in your situation should never have had her life interfered with by you.

There are serious problems that must be dealt with in your marriage, st, but please do not ruin the lives of a wife and children in your attempt to solve them. Your feelings might be desperate at times, but you do not have to act on them.

I don't know your story but how in the world is trying to contact OM going to help your M???

You are doing the same thing your H is doing...trying to solve things with unacceptable means.

There are plenty of other people you can talk to when you are feeling down...claiming OM is the only one is a bunch of BS and you know it.

I don't know, ST, and am uncomfortable giving advice about this since I am very unfamiliar with BP and the depression in my M is more my own, not my H's. I'll let Mrs. W, a psycologist, or someone else who has experience with a spouse who has other issues respond.

I understand the temptation to contact the FOM, especially when things are bad. You were with him for 18 months and have been at working on recovering your M for not even three months. It takes a lot of time to try to understand and heal from what you did. My A lasted a few months, ending 9 months ago I'm still working at recovery.

I'm dropping in to encourage you NOT to even test the FOM boundaries. If you try and he doesn't respond or you find he's blocked you like he did, you will get angry, depressed, and/or sad -- and how is that going to help you? And if he does respond, you're right back to where you were -- disrespecting and lying to your H, shaming yourself, hurting the BW, and harming your family.

If you must expend energy elsewhere when things are going poorly with your H, direct it toward your children or a community event or a volunteer effort. I understand it's so hard because it is. You're looking for comfort and when you're hurting you're looking for somewhere -- anywhere -- to turn. You are desparate so you are remembering only the "good" part of being with FOM. The collaterall damage of that skewed "good" feeling is widespread and can be permanent. It is not good but instead horribly bad. You absolutely, positively, cannot have contact with the FOM while you are married. Please listen to SugarCane on this.

Good luck to you.

I am trying so hard to protect them. They adore him and he is wonderful with them most of the time. They are his life - he just wants it to be the 4 of us all the time.


He has said he isn't interested in working at it repeatedly he just wants everything to tick along, doesn't want to spend time the 2 of us, just the 4 of us. If he wanted to spend time with me he wouldn't have had children. ( This is what he is saying today). He just doesn't understand that there can't really be the 4 of us unless there is the 2 of us.



Coloured by me. You are right SC and today I regret it and am so relieved that I didn't even see the pic of him. I don't think I would have actually entered into proper 2 way communication, wanted to see how it felt to do it and get at H. Wrong I know, but it didn't happen and it wouldn't have helped in the long run at all.


If you don't mind SC, I like to think of you OMW. And I feel awfully awfully guilty and sick about causing you upset.



Thank you SC I really appreciate it

I do still want to sort this M out. Am I right to do that?

I did talk to my sis today and she spoke to H. I think it gave him something to think about. We're here to help him. Every time I've showed him my vulnerabilities today - he's thrown it back on me.

Mum found out today that she has to go down the full chemo route, although there is no spread. The cancer is triple non receptive- won't respond to hormone therapy. THe chemo will be a bit experimental from what she could work out because it is rare. H is really upset about this, i'm upset but at the moment I'm more upset about us and the kids.

Several tears on and a family hug, things are a lot less tense and calmer as we pull together again.

I offered take away and dvd earlier as a "come on let's calm down and do something nice togethter" but he refused. I'm hoping he might be up for it now.

I just want someone else to take responsibility for a bit


Thank you sugarCane
st

I know. Stupid. Deep hole. Thank you MF - it helps having people there to point it out

ST

Thanks for the understanding L4, it is a comfort that someone can see that I was/ am at times desperate . SCs post really made me feel differently. I know it's no good.

Tears and snot everywhere. Let's go and watch Monkey Life with the other 3. No more testing of boundaries or anything else.

Thanks for the encouragement.

st, I am not going to beat up on you anymore...Except, I think you should completely stay away from FB or myspace or any of those websites. One screw up on your part could set you both right back to d-day.

My wife's affair last about the same as yours....but she is not here....and last night it was pretty intense when I looked her in the eye and asked her if there was any kind of contact with OM. She said "No". Came as a TOTAL relief. Respect your husband's wishes and stay away from making any contact.

You are still in very early stages. (my wife admitted her affair back in Oct) and she is still going through terrible remorse. And the withdrawl seems to last forever. Probably will be the same in your case.

Are you doing anything to meet your husband's needs ? Is he still very upset/getting over the shock ? I am sure others have asked you this before...Have you asked your husband to read up on the articles here ?

Hi ST...

Well, my oh my, lots of issues going on here...

First, I wanted to address the OM issue...That relationship is TOXIC and it will remain that way FOR.EV.ER...IMO, it would remain that way even if your husband and his wife both died...What began as adultery could never be anything decent or good for either of you, so seriously, NO MATTER WHAT, no contact for LIFE is a MUST, okay?

Next issue...I am certainly no expert on Bipolar Disorder, my life experience with my father is all that I have, along with some reading...Of course, we do know that Dr. Harley would advise that that must be taken care of FIRST before any issues in the marriage can even be addressed...

Based on what I went through growing up I can tell you what I would do in your position: PLAN B: with the terms of your husband's return only after an appointment with a pyschiatrist [I would require confirmation from the psychiatrist - your husband could give permission to his doctor to share the information with you], IF he is diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, then a commitment to take medication [that you supervise him taking] and counseling...for life...Anything other than that, imo, would be enabling him to continue to put himself and your family through a living hell due to his illness...I take a hardline on this because of what I witnessed growing up...IMO, the KINDEST thing that you could do for your husband is to insist on treatment...he won't like it and things are likely to get much worse before they get better, but personally it would be the only way for me...

And during Plan B? YOU are still married and must continue to act like it...No OMs, period!

ST, if your husband does indeed have Bipolar Disorder you do no one any favors by just sticking it out and letting all of you get dragged through the muck and the mire of that illness...Iron clad boundaries are a MUST when dealing with this disorder...

What do you think?

Mrs. W

ST,
I've caught glimpses of your thread here and there. I really am sorry that life is so difficult for you at this time. Hang in there.

Take care.

Thanks for posting optin



In recent weeks it has been hard to get very near to H, I am doing everything I can form a distance but it isn't quite good enough and then all of a sudden it is and then it isn't.

The A doesn't seem to upset him - it obviously did while it was going on. He seems to have moved on - accpets it happened and that it is behind us. He never uses it against me. Occasionally suggests I go back to OM because he would be more able to support me emotionally.

It hurts him that as he sees it he isn't able to support me emotionally.

H calls this "Marriage Breakers" at the moment - doesn't like me using it and it is a LB.

Would really like to go through some of the stuff with him again ENQ and POJA and LB but not brave enough at the mo.

I know, I know... I have never never wanted a proper proper realtionship with OM and never will. I won't do it.

I had the exact same thought yesterday. I thinkit is a very valid and sensible suggestion, but I don't think I have the strength at the moment. I will read up on it some more. I just can't work out who would go where.


PArt of me hopes it is BP, then we know a bit more about we're up against and it sort of makes the calls easier. Both of us are also worried that it isn't and then we have to re-adjust all our thinking again.

Thanks MrsW

We did have the chinese last night and a bit of a chat. He just doesn't get that a marriage doesn't just happen and it isn't ok to just muddle through and that we need to be active in our M.

Another good day today - although H has been at work - we've had good chatty phone calls. He's just walked through the door. I apologised for being on here ( he is early home) and asked whether he minded if I had a few more mins. He's quite happy that I have a few mins to finish off while he has a shower - no resentful tone at all.

It's very confusing and a total rollercoaster what is fine one day is the end of the world the next.

I really think that if we could both really focus on the MB format we'd be fine but he just doesn't have the drive and determination or fight to do it - he just wants it to happen.

So when things are going ok between us it leads me back to one of my old threads... How do I get him to buy into MB?

I hate keep trying to guess what sort of mood the next day is going to be and what it might be that sends him through the roof.

Let's go with the flow again tonight

Thanks Vittoria

it's nice to know you're there too

Hi st,

I really think that you should work out a plan for getting the various issues dealt with and start it and stick to it. What I have seen from reading your various threads is that suggestions have been made that you agree are good ones, but that you're nervous of following through.

You are absolutely right in your thinking that if H could buy in to MB your marriage would be transformed. There are many things going on in your marriage that Dr Harley writes about:

NC with FOm and extraordinary protections to make sure it as hard as possible for you to be in contact ever again. There is a problem with your sister's involvement in the band. While I don't think you can ask her to leave, you and H need to jointly agree (POJA) issues such as going to her concerts. My own view as a BS would be that nobody goes to any concerts and sis should not mention OM ever again. You need to give up using social networking sites, since they are a means of making casual contact with people, including FOM. There is nothing you need to do on Facebook that you cannot do by email. If your H does not trust you to limit your email use, give that up as well. What you do use should be open for his scrutiny, of course.

There is the issue of your playing in another band. Since you connected with FOM through this activity it might not be enough for marital recovery to just change bands to avoid him. You should examine carefully how your H feels; it must be a trigger for him, and he must worry about another affair starting. Dr Harley advises giving up recreational activities that take you away from your spouse, and recommends finding activities to do together. Surely you could still play at home, and perhaps set up a kids' orchestra at the school? (You seem to be a teacher). I think that participating in an activity that takes you away from H and home and requires hours of time is bad just now, so soon after the affair. All your focus should be on rebuilding the marriage.

There are other aspects of meeting each other's EN. You have mentioned a couple of times that H has been angry when you have not cleared up after food. While I don't think you should be running around frantically clearing up because you are frightened of him, if domestic support is one of his top ENs then you should try to meet it. I find that homemaking makes my H and kids calm and contented; home becomes a nice place for them to come back to, and mess is a non-issue. It also turns my focus into the home and away from activities that distract from my marriage. As I said before, you need to focus on the marriage especially now, post-affair.

You identify the problem of spending time alone together, which Dr Harley says is crucial.

So yes, many things need dealing with and could be dealt with by MB. However, your H's lack of interest might well be to do with his condition, and as you know, Dr Harley would say that depression must be dealt with first. So that brings us to what Mrs W said: you must make treatment happen, or remove yourself and children from H's environment.

It will have to come to Plan B soon if H will not help himself, but perhaps you could ask for family help in getting him to see how vital treatment is, first. I know things must be terrible just now for your family, coping with your mother's treatment, but you said that your sister spoke to him recently. Perhaps she could do this again? Does H have helpful parents or siblings? Could they help by talking to him? They, and you, need to tell him that he cannot be allowed to hurt (emotionally) the children that he adores, and that his relationship with them depends on his getting treatment. I think you said something like "they are his world"; well, if he is indifferent to his marriage just now (and I would understand why he would be following the EA), he might just be reached through the children.

I don't think that MB can be used properly yet until H's condition is dealt with, but that does not mean that nothing can be done.

You, st, can work on re-establishing your moral integrity. No more affair behaviour, and extraordinary protections against this, whether you stay married or eventually separate and divorce. Don't lower your personal standards ever again, and do not hurt other people by your selfish pursuits.

The depression must also be dealt with, urgently. Your H must either see a doctor and follow through to a proper diagnosis or leave the home. You cannot ask your children to deal with H's moods as you might feel able to, st, by riding them out.

What do you think? Are my suggestions do-able?

I agree. They'll all steer clear of concerts. I need to stop sis mentioning OM, I have asked her not to and then she says "I know I'm not s'posed to say this but..." and this is the point where I should put my hands over my ears and go LALALALALALALA. I WILL FROM NOW.

DH is really really not bothered about band. There is no opportunity during rehearsal for socialising and it finishes so late that everyone rushes home. Despite lift sharing opportunities with male members of the band I refuse and only share with females. I have now found MB, I am not going to start another A.

I will insist H has the password for my FB account (without me knowing) so that I can only go there when he is around. He doesn't want his own account but enjoys keeping up with our friends through FB - something that these days we do together anyway.



On the dish issue. I am extremely house proud and like to keep it all inorder. People do comment on how clean and tidy the house and actually take the mickey if something is out of place. My M and D are tidy people but they think I am obsessive. However, MIL definitely is. She had to get a new rug because she couldn't stand the tassles on her old one getting rumpled everytime we went to visit. Kept an afro comb to constantly comb them - just as one example. I do, I do, I do keep the house up.



I think the rest of your points will be covered in my next post.

Thank you for looking through all of this SugarCane and yes I think some of it is doable.

ST

Hooray!!!

I have my husband back in his own head again. He read through this thread the night before last. PArt of me expected him to get angry or defensive but he didn't. I asked whether he'd like to post anything in his defense ( use my login if he didn't want to create one) but he didn't.

He will go the the docs appt and I know that it could be tricky until we get sorted on the mental health front. But we might aswell get going because he could be even stevens for the next few months which will give us an opportunity to build more.

He said there is nothing to say. Nothing I have said is unfair, untrue or unreasonable. He does want to work on his mental health. He is horrified at how he behaves and comments that he knows he's there he just can't work out how to get out of it. He knows how awful he is being but just can't stop it.

We agreed that evening that last night we would sit down and discuss.

So this is the jist of our conversation. We made notes so that when we lose our way we can refer back.

We identified 7 areas between us and discussed them.

sex
H likes SF, ST likes SF, H and st like SF. ST to intiate more.

Marriage
Last night we agreed that Marriage is not passive and that it should be worked at 80% of the time. In order for M to work we need to want to make each other happy.

Need to be aware of LBs and ENs. I printed off the Q's and we are ready to go with them again. ( I did my LBs last night)

We agreed that we would spend some time regularly looking at the MB prog. I pointed out the home study course, he did gasp at the price but I did point out that that was a small price to pay.

Plans/priorities

I know Financial security is a slight issue. I am doing a degree. The original aim was to become a teacher. We are both now of the opinion that with the hours teachers work this is not a good idea. H wants me to hold on to the dream because it would make him proud if I did and it is something that I always wanted to do. ( Little bit gutted that I don't make him proud now). I had a career previously and he would like a professional wife. We agreed that this would prob. happen and that would be a long term goal for when the children and pretty much independant. I will continue with the degree.

We are both happy with the shift ararngement now and have worked out that we do actually get quite a bit of time together but we do need to make sure we plan something for those times together - what ever we do is together rather than me popping to tesco while he changes a tyre we do both things together. It is v unlikely that H will get another job in the current economic climate. Hoping that he will be able to do so with in 5 years because it is known to contribute to mental health issues ( we feel that being unemployed/ on a low wage would contribute more than shift working).

Children

Agreed that children need reassurance and love to stop whining as well as firm boundaires and not giving into whining.. I stressed to H that whining comes from dysfunctional us and that it is the way we behave that needs to change to stop whining. ( it was his thought that they caused his mood to be worse!!).

Healthy habits

No snacking after tea apart from fruit or cereal. Fix bike trailer so that we can go shopping on the bikes and schedule in exercsie dvd for the week at the beginning of the week.

Holiday

We have a long weekend booked with kids at end of sep
We willbook a weekend just for us
We will try to book a week with friends either at my cuz's place in Wales or at friends bro.s house in Cornwall

Discussed saving for big hol next year

SO there we have it...

It is just incomprehendable how different things can be from one week to the next.


I need to show my vulnerabilities to H (all part of O&H) because that makes him feel more worthwhile and helps with his fear that he is ub=nable to provide for me.

Was that slightly epic??

ST

st, bear in mind when I give advice that I've been quite bad at following MB methods myself (apart from affair-proofing my own behaviour, which I take pride in). I understand Dr Harley at an intellectual level. I am a great reader, and I think I'm good at quickly seeing the nub of a written essay or argument. However, I've been quite withdrawn from my H and marriage for a long time, although I'm coming round. I like homemaking, but I must say that since I found out that H had used my contentment at home after D Day 1 as the backdrop for his cake-eating, I have often said "stuff the housework" and gone for a pedicure.

I don't like telling women that it naturally falls to them to keep a spotless home, but I do understand what Dr Harley means about meeting our spouses ENs in the way that they need them to be met. It does pay off, I have found. Anyway, you seem to be doing well on domestic support, if that is indeed a primary EN for your H.

However, on the band, and Facebook, my understanding is that you need to demonstrate extraordinary care of your marriage and H. You have put your marriage at risk, and shown lack of care for your H. You must do what will help the marriage, and not only what H expresses unhappiness about.

As an example: I can't stop my H talking to OW when I really look at it, although it is hard for them to meet, since she lives in Belgium and her H knows about the affair. (Her H will dismember my H and have his job on a plate if he ever hears of contact again. Both my H and OW have changed jobs so that they do not have to travel.)

In my still somewhat withdrawn state, in my head I sometimes say "let them talk" (on the phone, at work, which I can't monitor) if they want to. I haven't given H my heart back and I WILL find out one day if contact has continued. Since I have not given him my heart back, I'm not frightened of this happening. I'll just leave him. To the devil with him if she's what he wants.

If my H cares about restoring intimacy between us he should not ever talk to OW again, and eventually, if he turns his focus entirely to me, intimacy will creep back into our marriage. However he could take my apparent indifference to what he does as not minding, as long as he does not sleep with her again. How wrong he'd be.

The poster 6 years later was saying something like this to you earlier in this thread. Your H's lack of concern might be a very bad sign, indicating his intention to stay only until the children are older.

Perhaps I'm being too cautious about Facebook and the band, but perhaps you could think about committing to your marriage by giving them up anyway.

I hope you'll get more opinions on this soon.

st, I look forward to coming back here later, but for now,

Hooray!

Hi SC

Asked DH to read over your posts and make a response- let me know how he feels based on your post. Tried to get him to post here again but he won't, siad he'd email me then I could stick it on.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and how you view your M. It's tough. And I can't deny that I sometimes feel that way too, but as soon as I start putting the effort in those feelings of just hanging in disappear.

st,

I am so glad your husband has decided to get help, I think you will both be glad you did.

I understand that your husband does not want to post here, but if you think he would benefit to talking to someone else familiar with BP, let me know and I will give you my email address. I could even see if my husband would talk to him if you think that might help. My husband is so thankful he is finally getting the help he needs.

Take care.

OK, so now you have my BS's perspective on our relationship. This is an email he sent last night having read this thread. I have only edited names and a typo. I will not comment any further for now (although I am itching to comment). I await your 2x4s.

"I am very proud of you for what you have achieved in your life and I take great pleasure in telling people that you were earning the same as me even though I had spent 5 years at uni, and how good you were at picking up the analytical and progressing at old work place.

I am proud of you for achieving what you achieve on a daily basis, kids, house, job and OU study. Not really sure I know whether you are proud of me or not?

I do not want a professional wife, I don't even want you to have a full time job because I am selfish and like having you around when I am off shift (when I am in a good phase). I want you to do something that you enjoy, but you always say that you need a challenging job to feel fulfilled, and you have always been an achiever and this is normally achieved by having a professional job as these are more demanding. I do not want you to waste your talents and ability to make a difference. I just want you to stick at something, all the while I have known you, you chop and change you goals which is fine but I originally started working shifts so that you could achieve your ultimate goal of being a teacher, you then changed your mind and made me feel that my sacrifices were irrelevant. Then you changed your mind back again, and now back again. I do agree that you being a teacher in the short term is a bad idea, but I wonder how long it would be before you change your mind again. I am a person who likes stability and I just about get my head around your latest change of mind and you change it back again, this knocks me down and may start a depressive period I sort my head out again and you change it back (aaagghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!). Basically can we stick to the plan, you get your degree, which, you do want to get and we go from there. I can not leave this job until you are 100% sure what you are going to do, because if I leave and get a lower paid job because you are working then in 1 to 2 years you say actually I would like to finish my degree/training to become a teacher we may be stuck on a low income which will stress me out big time.

I wish you would show some excitement/interest in the things that are at the front of my mind sometimes. Like garage conversion, patio, flooring and holidays. It seems that as soon as doing something that involves money you shut down. I realise I used to want to do everything yesterday, but I keep telling you that I have longer term goals now, but, I still like to talk about them as it gives me something to look forward to.

Raising my hand to you does not even cross my mind anymore (apart from the pyjama gate, which I did not process as aggressive), don't know why maybe because I feel I can get your attention by talking now as you seem to listen and not sneer at me when I am disagreeing with you.

I think a weekly sit down and chat like the other night would be good, just to raise any issues and reaffirm our objectives and joint aims.

Money is my main Achilles heel, I don't want loads but I just want enough so that we can do little things (take away once a month or take the kids out once a month or go out for a meal once a month) without worrying if we are going to get overdrawn at the end of the month.

About you going to band, I do not have problem because it is not the band that was the problem, the problem was that OM saw you were vulnerable because of what we were going through and decided he would try is hand, and you let him manipulate us. I truly do not believe this will happen again, however, you do come in and tell me how X has been making inappropriate remarks or flirting with you and this makes you feel good about yourself. This feels as though it is a dig because I do not do that to you, I do make remarks about how you look or feel but you seem to take it as though I am only saying it because I want SF.

I do love you and the kids soooooo much.

Also very rarely do I say things just to get a response or to get attention on me. (The Chinese incident the other day, or getting DD to phone you at your Mums) I either don't think or genuinely feel it needs to be done/said. i.e At that point in time I did not want the Chinese etc......

I know I do not deserve the number of chances you have given me, but I am thankful that you have. I am doing and promise to continue doing my best to treat you with the respect and love you deserve.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi, ST.

You know my story, so please take my advice while considering the source.

First, I thought this was interesting a few posts above, when you wrote that during your talk with your H you learned you "...need to show my vulnerabilities to H (all part of O&H) because that makes him feel more worthwhile and helps with his fear that he is ub=nable to provide for me." It sounds like you got your answer to your question about showing your needs/vulnerabilities to your H.

This thread has been primarily about your marriage and what you and your H are doing to improve it. This is great, and honestly I'm a bit jealous. My H and I have been trying to recover from my cheating longer than you two, and we're not talking about our M much at all. We're talking about our relationship a little but we're mostly still trying to process my betrayal and its annihilation of our M.

I don't know how much of my thread you've read, but two months ago I had a fantastic session with Dr. H. He stressed to me that it's important for H and I to deal with the A first, then focus on the M. During my session, Dr. H talked to me about the "4 Rules to Guide Marital Recovery". I was asked for more detail then so I'm copying directly from my thread on 1/30/09:

==========

I don't know if this is a formal program that Dr. H has developed, but it's what he told me I have do to help my H. I did a brief search here on MB and did not find this process detailed anywhere so I'm sorry I can't give you something more comprehensive.

Why - Why did this happen? Why did I not protect my weaknesses -- my weaknesses being my emotional needs? When my ENs weren't being fulfilled by my H, why did I not protect myself and allow another man in to otherwise satisfy these? Having unmet needs, neglect, abuse, are not the answers to this, by the way. These excuses are not the "why". One can suffer these injustices and still not have an affair. I have to look at why I failed to prevent the OM from satisfying my ENs. My ENs are my vulnerabilities to connectedness. Why did I make my ENs vulnerable to the OM thus allowing myself to connect with OM in ways that should be reserved for my spouse? I have to understand my ways of connectedness and why I didn't safeguard them. The WS needs to dig and learn this.

What - What happened? Mark1952 actually addressed this very thoroughly earlier in my thread here and put it much better than I ever could so I encourage you to read that. (When I'm logged in, it's on page 15, dated 12/19/08.) I have to know what sequences of events, what environments, and/or what factors were involved that put me in the position where I was forced to either protect my weaknesses or make them vulnerable.

Validation - My H needs to get to the point where he believes that I understand how my thoughtless actions affected my BH. Not validating my hurt. But that my BH's feelings -- whatever they may be -- are validated by me and that BH believes this.

Plan - This is where the extraordinary precautions come in that you've surely read about on MB. What is my plan to ensure that this never happens again. What will I avoid, do, say, practice, share, etc. to protect myself and my weaknesses going forward?

Once H and I have gotten through the healing from this tragic infliction as best we can, THEN we can work on our marriage. You can't run the race until you heal the gaping leg wound. Heal the wound first -- clean it out (painful), apply the apporpriate medicine and therapy, let it scar over (as it will never disappear), then run the race. If you don't properly clean the wound, infection will happen and will most certainly make things worse down the road.

================

I'm so glad your H is here, ST, also dealing with his mental health and working to have a fulfilling M. I think it's great you two are uncovering and sharing your ENs and learning about LBs and doing your best to find time for UA. Make sure you don't neglect addressing, analyzing, and recovering from the EA as well.

This is my unprofessional opinion.

Take care, ST. Keep working at it as you are and best wishes to you and your H. You can do this.

-L4

Thank you very much for your offer allboysmom. I'm sure there will be an occasion when he could do with an outside input with a bit of experience.

ST

Hi L4

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and giving me somewhere to go. Maybe you have picked up that I want to give the A a bit more of an airing and thrash it out a bit more with myself and H. THing is with Hs well, not sure how to describe it - I guess he's less than ambivalent about it, I don't like to force the issue. I realise that the thrashing and finding and thinking is something I need to do with me but I guess I was looking for him to throw up some of the qs and he hasn't.

The format you have shown below is really just what I want to work through the ins and outs of it. I know I described it as an EA initially but actually although we didn't go the whole way it was more than an EA (just don't want you good people kept in the dark on that). Either way it was a betrayal and an A.


As you say, we need to be careful about this recovery and need to examine the A more. I am very much aware that I allowed it to happen and that it was my doing. But I think H feels that we have abused each other and in some way the scores are evened and we start again. We need to deal with the A and the mental health issue/agression before we can really say we're working on our M. TO make sure that those wounds don't get reinfected. It gives both a focus and helps to lift us and think positively that we can talk about a future together but we both know we are vulnerable.


==========


Why - Why did this happen? Why did I not protect my weaknesses -- my weaknesses being my emotional needs? When my ENs weren't being fulfilled by my H, why did I not protect myself and allow another man in to otherwise satisfy these? Having unmet needs, neglect, abuse, are not the answers to this, by the way. These excuses are not the "why". One can suffer these injustices and still not have an affair. I have to look at why I failed to prevent the OM from satisfying my ENs. My ENs are my vulnerabilities to connectedness. Why did I make my ENs vulnerable to the OM thus allowing myself to connect with OM in ways that should be reserved for my spouse? I have to understand my ways of connectedness and why I didn't safeguard them. The WS needs to dig and learn this. [/quote]

OK, so I would answer that I just wanted my ENs met, I didn't give any consideration to who or how they might be met all I cared about was that they were being met. ME, ME, ME. Just selfish. To safeguard this, I have to first of all recognise when they are not being met and which ones in particular are not being met and then create opportunities for them to be met by my H.
I was lonely, I wanted an escape, I felt worthless. I often find it hard to realte to females and often avoid them. Music is known to create a feel good loop, the better you get the more you want to play. So in an environment where I'm getting a high from playing anyway it is much easier to begin to associate people with that high too.

This is really hard. Because my BH doesn't show v much that he has been affected. I do understand that my actions could have had a catastrophic affect on H. I think he does believe that I validate his feelings connected with the A.


My Plan: Know my own ENs and be aware when they are not being met.
Try to develop friendships with women ( which I have been doing a really good job at- they're are much friendlier than they look or than I thought). I hope that doesn't sound too freak like. At Junior school I played football and hung out with the boys, then I went to an all girls school which i hated and was bullied at and then worked in a male dominated environment for 9years, the last lab I worked in there were only 2 girls to ~50 men.
I will make sure that I protect my weaknesses in the music situation. I can not give it up - it is me, totally me. If I was asked to choose between OM and music during the A it would have been music. If asked to choose between H and music? - well I hope that doesn't happen.

H did ask me to give up band during the A and of course at the time I was livid - how dare he make me. There was a point where I did agree that I wouldn't go every week depending on his shift so that we could spend time together. As soon as I offered he refused - just wanted to see if I would put him first.

If he asked me to miss a rehersal because he need to talk or needed to see me or he had something special on I now would - I wouldn't during the A. But I will not give it up.
================

Thank you very much for your unprofessional opinion L4. It has been a worthwhile exercise going through this structure and uncovering the dynamics, it has made me think of things I hadn't thought about and things i had subconsciouly been sorting. I welcome any comments, any further advice any 2x4s. I know I am still withdrawing, but can anyone see fog?

I will say thought that my new found frienships and being able to relate to ladies has been because of all of you on here - sharing and caring.

ST

Hi st,

I've been longing to get back to your thread, but it has been so difficult to find time!

Your H's email demands lots of analysis, but I seem to have had my thread-killing effect on you! I'm not experienced or very good with MB, so I don't want you to rely on me for advice!

I only have time to say a couple of things about the email now.

Your H is asking you to forgive him for his behaviours in the marriage, and yet he is not the one who had the affair. Since you both need to eliminate love-busters and must try to meet the other's ENs, what would you ask him to forgive you for? There is the affair, of course, but you were also responsible for some of the conditions of your marriage; what other issues do you need to address to make this marriage happy for H? Stopping the affair (and never having another) will not alone make for a happy marriage.

If you were to write an email, what could you identify from H's email as issues that you need to address? In your various posts here on MB, which H has read, you have told him quite clearly what love-killing behaviour he practices. I am very touched by his desire to stop those and make you happy. He won't post here, but he has read a lot, and written this email, which contains little self-justification and a lot of self-examination. When he is well, he wants to do whatever you ask to make you happy. Are you willing to deal, systematically and vigorously, with the issue he identifies (such as money, and your studies), in order to make him happy?

I read what you wrote about participating in the band, on another thread. While I'm glad that this is not a big issue for your H, I think that if you were fully invested in your marriage, then you would happily give up the band. You wrote as if you were being asked to give up music, which you are not, and which is not the issue; the issue is continuing with an activity that created the conditions for the affair to happen. Your H identifies this as a problem for him, even though he does not ask you to give up the band.

What practical steps are you taking to affair-proof your marriage and create confidence in your H that he is safe from a recurrence? Your H deserves that reassurance, and as a BS I can tell you that this reassurance does not come from words alone ("I will never do that again") but from verifiable action. Perhaps the desire to do all you can for him will come with time, when you seen H changing - but remember that Dr Harley's behavioural approach says that you must first change the behaviour and in doing so you will create positive feelings.

There is more to say about the email, but I must get home now and cook tea! However, I would like to know whether a doctor's appointment has been firmly booked and how you plan to proceed if H is in a down phase and refuses to go.

You said that you were itching to comment on the email. What do you want to say?

Thank you SugarCane for taking some time to respond. Much appreciated
Of course I would ask or forgiveness for the affair. I need to also ask or forgiveness for the time that I began to shut him out- proving myself to be independant (apart from financially) when caring for the children and looking after the house. I would also ask for forgiveness for not considering his feelings and needs as valid.

Yes I am, this was a big secion of our conversation the other night. AT the moment he is keen to continue my study so that I am not only following my dream but so that I am once more earning some significant money. I have suggested that I take on more hours to improve our current financial situation, but H doesn't want me to do this as he doesn't want to slow down progress with the degree or take time away from our marriage building.

I think because the band isn't anything like a crunch issue I find it very hard to think about how I would react. We have just discussed this. H can't imagine that I would suggest he couldn't play V-ball in the name of our M. He doesn't see that me giving up band would help at all. I can see the dangers and have made steps to protect my M from these dangers as listed in my reply to L4's post. Since Mel's post on the "skank" and flirtation I am now fully in agreement that any flirting is an insult and humiliating and have preached on the subject several times today.


Apart form the things I have mentioned already and in the previous post in response to L4. I am visibly quite a different person with different attitudes, which I have demonstrated to H through my keenness to act on MB principles and lead the R from the A. I have also started to decline/avoid invites out with girlfriends and instead invite them here for girly nights in. I am being with H, making excuses to be with him and do things with him. Asking him to come out with me. We have been invited to a party by a mutual friend (she came to our wedding, H met playing vball and we became friendly then, but then when we moved away we lost contact and now I have reconnected with her through this new band) and I have asked H if he will take the night off work to come with me. Previously I would have gone with out him and got a babysitter just for me. But I want to be with him adn I am proud of him,and I want him to be on my arm that night.


The doctor's appt is firmly made. H is now keen to go of course and I think because it is so far in advance there won't be a problem with him refusing because he has made himself aware that the well him wants it and he must remember this when he is down.

I think maybe I have covered some of the things I would reply to in his email.

Will look at it again later and reply

Thanks SC

ST

H now knows that I am very proud of him. Not only how hard working he is and how he provides for us but how emotionally aware and able he has become.

We have a new plan, as written in previous post. I need to make my objectives a lot less clear cut - not to say I'm going to do something unless I can gaurantee it will happen. I will continue with the degree and aim to be a teacher one day.
I am really working on this, I have come to realise that this is H's music. It gives a focus and something for us both to look forward to _ I can guide him so that he doesn't get carried away with his ideas rather than just shutting down in fear of any possible overspend - we can joint project manage with the help of POJA.

I confess I totally dismissed anything H had to say as pointless and worthless during the A. I am now listening and i apologise for being so rude and ignorant.


OK, so I'm confused. This is where H sounds like me - usually we have conflict because I'd like to spend any slight surplus on having fun and he wants to spend it on the house.

Yep ok, hands up. This is very wrong of me and I now apologise for this. HE's right it did make me feel good about myself but now after Mel's post, it makes me feel very bad about myself. I know when H is making remarks about me because he wants SF and when he doesn't, prob something that we need to work on. Interesting on our ENQ, I said I'd like it more often than him yet in real life he does seem to want it more than me! But we both positioned it £rd on the list.




He does deserve the chances because at every point he has been willing to try something else to help himself. He obviously thinks I deserve a chance and I will not let him down.

Hi st,

This was the sort of analysis that I was hoping you would provide - a point-by-point answer to H's desires and wishes.

In your marriage you seem to have what most of us here wish we could have; both spouses badly wanting to work on the marriage and willing to use the MB programme. A lot of us are in "recovery" with one spouse who is ambivalent about making a full commitment and we would love to have the other on board with MB but have not achieved that.

You’ve also got an H who seems not to be paralysed by resentment and grief over the affair. That might be because it did not involve full penetrative sex (if I understand you correctly) but whatever the reason, you are starting recovery with your BS in a lot better emotional state than many. That is, of course, when he is “up”. I envy you! There are reasons to be very optimistic about your recovery and rebuilding.

I read that you are considering the online course, and you should certainly do that if you can. I wonder, though, whether it wouldn’t still be good to have a couple of telephone counselling sessions so that you get a bit of tailor-made advice. It might be better to do this in a month or two after H get a diagnosis and treatment, because you might spend all that money to be told that the depression should be dealt with first. The telephone sessions cost about £150 (plus the cost of the call). You could perhaps look at having a couple of those combined with the Home Study course, compared to the online course at £800+. Whatever you choose I know it will be money well spent.

Have you read His Needs Her Needs (HNHN) and Surviving an Affair (SAA)? I found HNHN in a branch of Waterstones, but I had to buy SAA when I was in the States last summer; I couldn’t find it here. You could probably get both easily from Amazon, or the online bookshop here if it’s cheaper.

HNHN deals with exactly the situations that you and H have identified in your marriage, and tells you how to deal with them. Showing an interesting in H’s projects, for example, would come under conversation and perhaps admiration. Dr Harley essentially tells us to learn how to be interested in what our spouse in interested in. He does not exactly say “fake it”; he says that we should develop a real interest.

Your music comes under recreational companionship (RC). I’m sorry to bang on about the band, but Dr Harley is very firmly against participating in ANY activity that takes times away from your spouse. He says that you need to make your spouse your favourite recreational companion, which means finding something that you can enjoy doing together. I know that you and H go running and do other fitness activities, but I’d guess that you spend more time with the band than doing those, and you shouldn’t. You shouldn’t in a relatively secure marriage, and you especially shouldn’t when that was the activity that allowed you to mix with men away from H. You must remove the conditions that made the affair possible. Dr Harley also says that you must spend a minimum of 15 hours with your spouse, but must spend more at this fragile time, post affair. I’d say, as a BS, that you need to put all your energies into securing your marriage before you allow yourself time for your own passions. Perhaps this need not be permanent, but for now, if ever you need to go out when H is home and you could be together, you should not be going out.

If one of H’s needs is also for family commitment (FC) from you, then that also means that you cannot ask him to mind the children while you go to play. He seems to want you both to spend a lot of time with the children (both together with them), so you must meet that EN.

Dr Harley deals with financial support as an EN also, and gives examples of how to brainstorm problems, especially those of balancing FS, RC and FC.

I’m so glad you’re onboard about flirting, but I would just add that you need NOT to do this to protect your own weaknesses but also to protect H’s heart. You have caused some degree of emotional damage to him with the affair, and talking about men who look at you when you go out must provide very unpleasant post-affairs triggers for him. Don’t do this to him.

I saw you writing to someone else about removing Facebook from her life, but you said earlier that you like keeping up with your friends this way, so I presume you haven’t removed it from yours! Well, how about having only a joint Facebook site, with H, and only a joint email account? You could hardly unblock FOM in a weak moment if you started a new site that H jointly ran. This would be part of your plan for moments of loneliness and severe withdrawal. They will come again, often, I might guess. Do you have a plan to deal with them? Who can you talk to when H gets difficult again and you feel desperate? What displacement activities can you engage in at those times?

Why were you feeling lonely last evening? I read your post on the “fun” thread. Were your H or sister unable to provide friendship at that time? What was missing for you? Are you okay today and looking forward to the weekend?

"I saw you writing to someone else about removing Facebook from her life, but you said earlier that you like keeping up with your friends this way, so I presume you haven’t removed it from yours! Well, how about having only a joint Facebook site, with H, and only a joint email account? You could hardly unblock FOM in a weak moment if you started a new site that H jointly ran. "

Another idea is find MB members who are FB members as well. I have 7 MBers on my FB, FBW and FWW. Its a great way to ensure I am behaving and they get the same benefit. Also we can be alot sillier there than we can be here

Just a thought

Bit naughty aren't I with the old FB thing. Ok, my FB account is never logged out of here at home now so it is open to H at any time whether I am here or not.

H plays volleyball I do band. H is on the committee for preschool , he is out with them at the mo and I am a school governor. We both find satisfaction from doing a bit for the community and we are proud of each other for doing this.

I know this is an area where for now we are going to take a slight calculated risk.

Our M is obviously far from perfect but I can see that we are in a better place than a lot of people about here and I hope that I am not resented by anyone for being here.

I wish that everyone had the MB template for their marriage and that both spouses wanted to use it.

I'll order the books after next pay day.

My plan next time a bad time hits is to come on here. THis is definitely the thing that works best for me.

I wasn't really feeling lonely last night just slightly tougue in cheek left out - everyone else on that fun thread had people they IMd or emailed or talked too. (H was at v-ball lastnight)

Yes i am looking forward to the weekend, kids seem a bit tired though so i hope they don't whine too much.

Have you got weekend plans SC?

OK, I sort of like that idea. Might feel a bit scary to become a real person rather han just ST. I have to confess I did just go to my FB page and check that there was nothing on there that might get me 2x4s by MBers (although of course H says he doesn't object)

Now then, will you be my friend? How do I go about this without revealing to the world who I am?

Hey ST, Lil isn't sure how long she is going to be online, so she asked me to send you her email addy. It's lildoggie@ymail.com

BTW, I'm a MB friend on FB of Lil's. If you would like to add me on there, also, please feel free.

Thank you Verve and lil,

ST

Dear st, it's hard to convey clearly in print what we are trying to say. I hope you haven't misunderstood me to say that I resent you for being here. I do envy you your H, who is kind and forgiving, willing to do the hard work of recovery with you, and on board with MB, but I envy you in the nicest possible way! In pointing out the good things I see in your situation, I was trying to show you where there is much room for optimism. I particularly wanted to do this because you sounded down last night. I'm glad that you were okay really.

Your lack of email MB friends could have been putdown to your newness, but now look what's happened; you have 3 friends now (that I have counted) already!

Hi SC

I was hoping that was the case but didn't want to assume. Thank you so much for being there.

What are you still doing up?

st, I forgot to answer your question:

I'll be going for a 4-mile run (2 laps of the park) on Saturday morning, then buying appliances for my new kitchen, soon to be fitted. I think I'll have a built-in coffee-maker; a totally unnecessary expensive treat.

Please tell your H that to hang in there about money. It's hard to have very little money when the kids are little and there is only one salary, but is is lovely to have young, kissable babies, and to be young yourselves. We have a lot more money now because we both work, but I miss having little ones around the place. Coffee machines and new kitchens do not compensate for not being needed by the kids any more!

My daughter is home from university, and it's really nice to have her here. We might all go out to eat on Saturday night. Sunday will be a mixture of lazing around and doing housework. My house needs a good cleaning!

What do you mean? Writing to you!

Ok then, so recovery is good.

But why, the last few days have I felt so hemmed in and trapped??? We had a lovely day out yesterday - trying to get some ooufits for H's cousin's wedding, Went on a boat trip around the docks.

But I feel distant. DH left me in bed this morning to try and find myself, I've just got up. (10.00). I need to do lunch and then I'll try to do a few things for me.

I feel like my imagination is being squashed or something - I can't let my mind run riot.

During the A, my mind did of course run all over the palce with fantasy all the time. Have any of you FWWs experienced this as part of withdrawl? This isn't wanting OM.

A touchy ST

Maybe it's my taker kicking in????

Hey, ST. What "isn't wanting OM"?

This funny place my head is in isn't wanting OM

Ok, so poor H isn't doing anything wrong. No LBs, so why can't I get myself close to him?

Or maybe it is because I am triggered at the mo. The Easter Hols are here - A started 2 years ago at Easter and I am just reminded of it. I am also playing some music at the mo that I have played with OM and that I know he has just been playing recently.

I guess it's another hit of withdrawl - not bad but making me indifferent. Even typing that makes me feel closer to J (H). I want to ride this and get it to make me stronger. I am curious about OM but I can resist temptation.

OK so tonight I will sit down with H and discuss a business idea I have that will bring a fairly casual wage but whenwe want it. I will also discuss his plans for the garden and get them drawn out/ Look at some garden furniture and get those together plans back on track.

My sis has offered to have the kids on wed morning, so we'll try and do something then.

I need to put my energy into J!! I have to say though that it is bloody hard at the mo - all I can think about is me and how i want to fill my time with me. I guess that is 3 years of doing it. Another habit I need to break.

I've messed up big time today. J discovered both demeanours on his way home from work, I've LBd hugely but accidently.

DDnearly6 who is more grown up than the average 8 year old told me early this morning that sh'd watered the veg. I thanked her and thought nothing more of it. J has just come home form work to discover the hose pipe on at the back of the house.

Then tonight I was having a trum prac in my room - I do it when H is out 'cos he doesn't like it (never has). The kids were watching tv as they usually do at that time (this is why I choose to do it then). I finished in time to do a few jobs and watch Monkey Life with them. DD3 fell asleep during it so I carried him to bed (wake him for a wee later) and DS insisted she didn't need one before bed.

When J came home he went in the bathroom to get a towel for his shower and found water everywhere. bath overflowing walls soaked with condenstaion - blind dripping wet. Stepped into the hall and the water was coming up through our new floor boards.

So the hot water had been running for prob 1 1/2 - 2 hours.

I am in big trouble and really quite deservedly so. But it just seems crap that when I was really going to make the efort tonight I mess it up.

He's angry, I'm upset.

Led on to a discussion about me being distant this weekend.

Before we discovered watergate I had told him that sis was going to have kids on wed. He said "Why?" I reacted slightly badly and said "well why can't you think of something we can do together?" which annoyed him. He just doesn't want to do anything just with me. I'd be happy for him to come to band - would tach him an instrument. I would be happy to go to vball but he doesn't want me there.

We did the gardening together yesterday (with kids too), but he used that against me tonight. When we started looking for things we could do together he suggested that that was something we could share together ( Iwasn't too keen seems a bit too goal orientated to be fun) and I agreed and thought actually yep, there is also an opportnity for admiration on both parts, the showers after etc. Tonight he yells "that veg patch was s'posed to be yours originally, I said I didn't want anything to do with it adn then you still have me out there doing it with you"

I have also just worked out why I haven't been able to get physically close to him too. He inadvertantly did something the other night while we were that triggered a memory of something that happened to me when I was a teenager. In nearly 20 years, no one has put their hand over my mouth and so it wasn't a trigger that either of us were aware of. I've just realised and told him. That may also be why I've been struggling with the other things posted above - just put me on a down.

Oh well. At least I've worked out where I am.

Really struggling with the person I have become. This is new for me - I don't have anyone to blame for me being s41t, just me - no violent H to blame anymore.

I need to sort myself out and learn to love myself.

I am also addicted to MBs. I have replaced OM with this I think, need to look at my own life for a bit.

And I say that but I'm still looking for reassurance, I still want someone to post back and tell me where I'm going on or reassure me.

We all are sweety, we all are


honestly if it works, don't knock it. MB stopped me doing many inapropiate things

I must ask, could you not hear the hot tap running?

Anyway, kids do stuff, you probably should have looked at the hose after the garden comment, but I am unsure how you would have known about the hot water unless one of the kids made a comment.

Hi st,

I've been reading you latest posts and I have held back from responding. I am a bit worried that I am having a disproportionate input to your thread. As I said earlier, I don’t have the experience to give me confidence in giving advice.

I also think I have an air of the “bitter BW” hanging around me. If so, that is my own fault and the result of my comments on various threads, but I don’t think that you will be particularly receptive to advice from someone you might feel suspicious of.

So, if I may offer the hand of friendship, I will say that I am indeed the bitter BW (but dealing with the bitterness, slowly) but I am not bitter at you, or any FWW here! I am not even bitter at my H’s OW, despite her serious attempts to break up my marriage and make my H leave his children. It is my H that I feel badly hurt by, and his behaviour that I find hard to come to terms with, but I am learning to let these feelings go.

Back to you: I see a lot of up-and-down feelings in your posts, which is to be expected. I would like you to see what is good about your situation (and there is much that is good, as I tried to say about a week ago), and to build on that as much as possible.

Watergate was a disaster in terms of creating romantic feelings in your H, but it was largely an accident and is unlikely to happen again (or anything like it). I suppose though, that there is much expense and disruption to come in solving the water damage from the bathroom, so H’s anger will rumble on with these after-effects, which is unfortunate. It should be possible for him to relax his anger and hold his tongue, but for one thing; your practicing the trumpet while that was going on. I wonder whether this triggered memories for him of the affair. Triggers are really hard to deal with, and turn most BSs into beasts for a while. Does he know that you were practicing at that time? Might he see it as an example of how you put your feelings first, as you did during the affair? Once again: no bashing is intended by that suggestion. I just think that my perspective as BS might help you gain empathy for your H.

When you get the books, or enrol in the online course, you might enjoy tackling your marriage like an academic assignment. Doing so might be a way of helping you break away from reading here. I was instantly hooked by the books and read them with every chance I got, and reduced my time here for a few days. If you do that, and follow them up with the exercises, I’m sure that will benefit the marriage.

I think you will feel better when you start feeling romantic love for your H again, and that will take time, work on the Harley programme and sustained treatment for H’s depression. Tackle each thing systematically and I think you will both feel genuine improvement.

If any of you others on Recovery are reading this, please help us! Don’t abandon poor st to my naive interpretations and folk wisdom!

Hi SugarCane
Thank you for your reply
I think that there is absolutely no hint of a bitter BW. I think your respnses are objective and telling me exactly what I need to here - I think I'm just too selfish to act on what you say. Although I don't act on it, I am a lot gentler with H and try a lot more to think of him first - particualrly when related to the music and family time.


I think you are a truly lovely lady and I feel very honoured that you have offered me the hand of friendship and of course I accpet. I hope your H appreciates how lucky he is and is trying to prove himself worthy of you now.


I am impatient and i think the problems we have now are due to my impatience and I worry if we are not actively looking to work on our M every second we have together then we have zero chance. Although H definielty wants an M with me he is being driven crazy by me keep pushing for us to so it properly and NOW!! We had a really crap morning together - he wants me to hold his hand or touch him and it's just benn making me cringe. I wanted to start the morning just being chatty and friendly and lead up to hand holding. He wanted to start with handholding and then let the conversation fall into place - Both of us putting our own needs first but with the intention of leading up to meeting the other's.


Yep, this was a trigger, big time. I told him that I was playing (O&H) and I knew it would be. He ranted and then I pointed out that I could have been loading the dish/w and not of noticed. ( the house was spotless on his return from work, I make sure of that before I get trum out). Yes it was an example of how I put my feelings first and he said that. I have tried to get my prac in with the minimal disruption to everyone and have discussed when and how with kids and J.


I'd love to do this but J is reluctant, it would only frustrate me to try to do it by myself, as I am at the moment.


I hope so. J keeps saying we should just have it anyway - we shouldn't need to work at it, he loves me in his way and that should be enough.


Thanks again SC it's very valuable to sound it out against someone, particuarly someone who is on the other side. And I really hope my selfish rantings don't trigger you.
(((sugarcane)))

ST

Nope, I didn't, i guess by the time I walked by to take the kids to bed the water in the bath was so high not to make a noise.


I quizzed dd about it in the morning - but she said she only watered the seedlings indoors. But then she did go on to say "oh, I found the nozzle for the hose lying around so I put it on"

But yes, after her comment I should have checked.

So with us all being addicted to MB does this not count as an LB for all of your spouses. ( I'm allowed tonight he's at work)

Bed now though!

st, I picked out this paragraph because it deals with the problems of meeting each other's needs in the way they need to be met. I think that meeting needs that we don't ourselves share can be hard for most of us, but the wonderful thing about the Harley programme is that it takes you through the steps needed to do so, one by one. If you could possibly get a couple of phone sessions (for both of you; your H must hear properly how this works) I think it would make the world of difference. I have read so often where people here are told what to do during coaching and find it unnatural and artificial, but do it anyway, since they are paying for the advice! They usually report results that surprise them.


If your H would read Dr Harley's writings, he would see why this isn't so. Good marriages do not come naturally, but evolve through the daily practise of spending enjoyable time together, meeting needs and having them met, cherishing and protecting the other spouse and the marriage. "Cherishing" means more than "loving with all one's heart"; it means actively loving, protecting and taking care of your spouse. You are right to want your H to see this.

Perhaps your H needs you to take the lead in recovery, as a kind of compensation for the affair, and demonstration that you are sorry for what you did. I'm sure that a one-sided effort would be hard to maintain when H is negative, but his attitude might improve when he gets medical help. I think that perhaps you should accept the uneven input, but try hard to get him to read just one of the books. HNHN and SAA are both very good at explaining how changes in behaviour create changed feelings, which is the essence of behaviouralism, I suppose.

I can't agree that he is lucky to have a wife who is as angry as I have been at him, but thank you for suggesting that he is! I think he works hard to make me happy again. In fact, he's whisking me off (with the kids) for a trip out of London until Sunday, so I won't be back here until at least then. That should give others a chance to help with your dilemmas! Have a lovely Easter, st.

Thanks for saying so sugarcane - this may be all he needs.



I'm hoping that Jis going to get chance to lurk form work tonight. I think it will help greatly for him to see that you have highlighted this.
I agree and I have accepted the uneven output I think I'm just hoping that he'll follow my lead a little more easily.

But, we had a good chat on the phone last night, absolutely no relationship talk - just work talk. Which was good for both of us and we did have some relationship talk this morning which meant very smoothly with no LB and I was quite naturally affectionate and a bit kissy (before and after our talk).

Things were good in few mins we had tonight aswell, this time between him waking and going to work on a night [censored] can be really stressy but it was smooth flowing.

Have a great weekend!

We're off up to his parents, prob won't be back til Tues.

ST

Oh its DEFINATLY a LB. Its why I dont normally spend long chunks of time on MB, just grab a few minutes here and there.

Like you, I just take what time I have, and deal with not having it as much as I want. I do find if Flick is away for a couple of days, by the time he gets back I am actually kind of sick of MB...

Are you back yet, st? Did your long weekend go well? Ours was good, with very good weather.

I have noticed that you post to other people, so you must be doing this anyway, but I should like to recommend reading other threads as much as you can, particularly since this one is a bit slow. I'm sure that much of the time this will be depressing reading, because the BSs here express their feelings so well, but there is such a lot of helpful advice to be had here.

Have you looked at black_raven's thread in GQII on "forgiving your WS"? The contributions are all good, but I particularly liked Mark's yesterday, which summarised an article on levels of forgiveness. I could see immediately that a full, satisfying recovery depends on level 4 being reached, where the WS shows unconditional remorse and understanding, and that lack of this is why my own marital recovery has been patchy.

Do you think you show remorse to your H? You have written that he is not destroyed or torn apart by the affair (or words to that effect) and that he wants you both to just be normal, but then he gets very angry with you.

I suspect that he is doing this partly because of his depression, but also because of the affair. We BSs do that, and we know we're doing it, but we go on.

We can accept that there were things that were unsatisfactory in the marriage, but the betrayal and the risk of breaking up the whole family seems like such an unjustified reaction to this unhappiness, especially since we were in the same marriage and did not do those things. Perhaps we too were not blissfully happy, but we valued what we had and worked to protect it. I know I lost respect for my H when I saw how...flipping childish!!! it was for him to blow up our whole lives because he felt bored and horny. WHAT THE BLAZES WAS HE THINKING??!! How did he think that his actions would improve our marriage? There must be a short-term effect of euphoria that improves things for the WS, but long term, how is this supposed to lead to happiness in our old age? Etc.

We BSs often feel that we have put up with such a lot, staying with the damaged marriage when the WS had the fun of the affair, that we're not prepare to put up with the rubbish that we did before. E.g: So you don't like it when I cram things into cupboards and they fall out on your head? Well, if my home isn't nice enough for you, then eff off to your OW, then! You don't like it when I fold your sock like this and not like that? Well, guess what...

It is wrong and irrational of us, and not likely to make for a happy marriage, but it is part of resentment. Well, from what Dr Harley writes, and what I have seen here and in my own marriage, resentment fades most successfully when the WS puts a lot of hard work into recovery, along with the BS.

You might be facing this kind of resentment with your H, and if so, there is probably a lot more to come. I'm just hoping that my perspective will help you understand him and have patience. Recovery is really hard.

Have you ordered the books yet? When is the medical appointment?

ST,

The book LoveBusters is not one that is mentioned in the recommended reading, but it is a very good one.

While the articles outline what the lovebusters are, the book goes into so much more detail and gives real life examples.

It opened my eyes, and H's, as to what is and what is not LBing.

What a relief, we're normal then

Pleased yours was good. We had some very good bits but also some terribly bad bits. Me and J only fell out once and did patch it up properly within the hour, but we di have a huge row with m-i-l eek.


I do try to read as much as I can, but then sometimes with everything else that I'm trying to do I end up neglecting something else. I need to be more disciplined about when iread on here.


I'm not sure how to show unconditional remorse and sadly and maybe just for today I'm not sure I feel it. I do try to "get it" from other BSs on here because really apart from dealing with myself this is the only place I'm going to get it. As I've said before J is so much less angry than he was before and during the A. Maybe he hasn't dealt with it himself and that is why he isn't upset by it. I'd feel more loved he was angry upset about it, sorry, I know that sounds awful. Maybe it's PMS talking tonight.



I didn't consider the marriage, i had very effectively compartmentalised. I didn't react to anything it just happened. I don't think my H worked to protect our M. How awful, I do sound like a very selfish WW tonight. Sorry.


Thing is sugarcane I feel like this, if i'm not good enough, if I don't get it right enough...


And resentment comes form entitlement.

I'm not sure what I need tonight - I could probably do with a good :twobyfour:

The books are ordered - his appt is Monday.

Crappy crappy crap.
Can either of us truly be bothered?

Let's hope tomorrow wakes more cheerfully. I need some early nights.

OM attempted contact - sent some music to me.

I've suggested moving away - much as i don't want to. But it is so much more a definite NO for J

Is there a way you can block OM?

He gave the music (written) to a very very good friend of his wifes
to give to me in person - not my music, music belonging to the band I used to play in ( which he still does). An invitation to go back and play? or him saying I'm not going anymore, you go?

Not my concern.

I returned it to her and said " I am not going to band again". J said I should have told her exactly why and that please could she not pass anything else on or mention him. I should have done, but I was taken by surprise.

I need to get out of this hole of self pity and wallowing and recognise what a good bloke J is. We need to stop keep telling each other we're not sure if we can do this and get on and bloody well do it.

We need more hours in the day and less people to deal with. How can I turn my back on my family if they need me?

change priorities again. We need more time together. Why can't I fully commit?

Thats ok, it happens, at least you have a plan should the situation occur again

I will wake up a nice person and a good wife and mother

"I returned it to her and said " I am not going to band again". J said I should have told her exactly why and that please could she not pass anything else on or mention him. I should have done, but I was taken by surprise.

This can be solved with a phone call to her now. Tell her what you should have told her.

Was the band exposed?

If not they should and need to be exposed. This has nothing to do with you not going back to the band.

I'll find her number. Several members of the band have been told, including the musical director. If any one asks I tell. I told the MD I was happy for him to tell the band why I wasn't returning and everyone that knows, knows that it isn't a secret. I'm not sure that the friend of OMW knows.

OK, the real ST is back. I must check through this thread and see if me being crap is PMS related.

This has been a long week. We haven't had an evening alone together since the day I caused a water shortage and added cconsiderably to global warming - I think that is 2 weeks tomorrow. We have managed a few hours at other times. This UA is a nightmare to fit in.

Well, we have a day out planned on Wed, we were going to take DS but sis has jumped in to have him. We'll have tomorrow evening - hopefully he can do his LBq and then we can go through both of them again. As he'll only have had half a days sleep, we'll leave the ENq til Wed night - maybe we should try and do it before We go out wed so that it's fresh in our minds for our day together.

J has been very very sweet. The last 2 mornings he has come home form work and done kids brekkies, getting dressed and dishwasher and left me in bed - he has then had is shower and come and snuggled with me for a few mins, before i got up to leave him to sleep.

I am lucky (((J)))

Aww thats so sweet
I love seeing married couples being cute



Its ok, we have 4, yes 4, cars, a boat, 2 motorbikes and an ATV. We are responsible for the global fuel crisis.

:MrEEk:

Well, goodness me. I haven't yet been posting on recovery for 2 months yet- I do think though that the 2x I have found OM hard to get rid of in my head it has been at that time. I'll go get some vit B and starflower oil.

That's the first time I've read back over the whole thread - maybe quite a good time to do it - 3months today since registration date.

My, my, it hasn't really been very long has it? IT feels like forever.

Ok then, this was taken from a post by sdcwman on Black_Ravens forgiveness thread.



There are 4 "levels" of forgiveness...
1) No forgiveness: refusal
2) "False Forgiveness": forgiving someone too easily without the required elements of true forgiveness (#4) being present. You do this when you are naive, needy, desperate, and being a doormat who will accept virtually anything superficial to win the 'love' of the perpetrator back. This is what people in dependent relationships do to 'win back' chronic, un-reformed abusers whose only goal is to continue the emotional/physical manipulation.
3) Acceptance: forgiving someone (prob out of your life) quietly to yourself only as a means of not allowing their hurtful betrayals to torment you any longer. In effect, you are relinquishing 'punishment' or 'retribution' and leaving it to God. You may never overtly forgive them to their face but merely chose to not let their past actions hurt you any longer. Often the case with unrepentant, still-active WSs/xWSs.
4) "True forgiveness": this is only possible with the requisite elements being present in the WS--responsibility, ownership, humility, sincerity, remorse, apology, and GENUINE repentance. True Recovery of a healthy relationship is ONLY possible with all these being present.


I just emailed it to J and he reckons he's somewhere between a 2 and a 3. Now, I don't think from my actions that I expected him to be anywhere further down than this, but I am still a bit surprised.

I clearly have some work to do. I do need to show repentance. Have just borrowed drgnflys list of EPs for me to work out my own, will do that very soon. Hopefully that will be a step in the right direction.

Hi sugarcane, if you're lurking at any point.

Please email me - have stuck email address in sig line

thank you

ST

I sent you an email, st, but just in case it's gone astray, you can reach me on elizabethmb@live.co.uk.

Saw doc today. Went well, now waiting to hear rom psych team.

Books have been dispatched

Hey ST,
I like that 4 levels of forgiveness thing, did BR write it?

Hope all goes well for psych team

Thanks lil

This is a link to the thread. I was quoting sdcwman

Forgiveness

Thanx sweety

Hey, Ladies. Those four stages of forgiveness sound like they were lifted from How Can I forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To by Janis Abrahms Spring, PhD.

My copy of this book is very worn. I have mentioned it here a few times to posters and have been reminded by bigkahuna that I need to "understand this book is not what the bible means by forgiveness."

I know the book has been very helpful for me as I have tried to earn forgiveness from my H, the BW, and even myself. Note that I didn't write "as I have asked for forgiveness" -- as I don't do that. I practice forgiving acts and if the recipient chooses to forgive me or not is his/her choice. I do not request or demand it.

I started reading that forgiveness thread - good stuff. It's exactly what I needed for my own recovery at this point.

So, hows it all going ST?

Right then, I was hoping I might get chance to resurface here today. I have about 30 mins til kids bath and bed, so I'll cut the chit chat.

I have been trying really hard to avoid Js current biggest LB which is IB under the guise of sitting at the PC.

We have done the LBq this week and the ENq this week and gone through them.

I need to focus my attention on:
affection: kisses and cuddles (I'm not a cuddly person)
admiration:
SF: initiating it
Family commitment
Honesty and Openess

I need to work on the affection and SF and to a lesser degree admiration, the others he says I'm good at.

As for LBs - this is tricky, is it ok that actually I was more aware of what LBd him than he was???

Annoying habits: not finishing jobs, eg writing birthday cards but never sending them, cutting the grass but not strimming, getting the washing in but not putting it away.

These annoy him I need to address them, but in my defence I can't start the strimmer without giving myself an injury, I'm usually getting the washing in on the way out of the door and then forget about it when I come back - no excuses on the birthday cards... and I guess forgetting about the washing is what I need to overcome.

IB

THis is the MB forum - I am getting use to not popping on every 6 hours or so (sort of)
..and getting ready in the morning - when I get ready in the morning I pay all my attention to the children and sort everything to do with them first and then totally focus on myself. If J is here and it's his turn to get up first I leave the children totally to him. I do mean totally - I don't really talk to any of them. I like to organise my thoughts and work out the day's schedule in peace and quiet without interruptions - if my thoughts get interrupted I get twitchy ( I think he'd call that an understatement).

(this I really really need to work on - I think maybe an area for POJA) and this one also comes into Selfish demands - I expect him to do it all on these prob 3 mornings of 5 that he is around in a 10 day period.

He discussed my LBs and ENs but still thinks that it isn't something that we should have to work at it should just happens - and it upsets him when I say that I'm going to really work at trying to meet his needs - because he says it should just happen. He's happy to bumble along. This slightly upsets me because I feel that he doesn't actually want to fight for us, but he says he wants us. His nature is to just let things happen - his loci of control is definitely more external.

I hate the thought of life passing us by and us missing out on a truly great relationship - I have to fight and work hard for what I want and I don't believe that if it's meant to be it's meant to be - I strongly believe we make our own futures.


We have our Wii at last so we have been doing some of that - it's nice to get away from the tv and I'm better at bowling than him!!!! We have obviously been talking lots which is great.

I'm going for it big time. Our M seems to be working quite well this week - we have been talking so many plans, ideas.

2 bits that aren't going so well:
Life is manic and I want to drop something - only prob is the thing apart from rebuilding M the thing that causes me most stress and takes most time is the Degree - an obvious choice to go - but J is almost desperate for me to do it.

...and I struggle with getting POSOM out of my head and I know all the reasons why - I am exhausted from using all the stop sign strategies, changing memories- I must do it at least 10times a day and this is getting me down.

PLEASE, JUST GET OUT OF MY HEAD

That morning thing needs sorting. I am really annoyed because this morning he phoned me while I was trying to get ready for the day and then complained because I wasn't enthusiastic about his conversation.

Irrational.

I think i'd like to become a hermit

your DH???

yeah, I think I may need to address my taker

u-huh.

Does he normally phone in the morning?
What about his call made you feel annoyed about the fact he was taking up your time? IS there some way you could POJA this?

Hows it going with not thinking about the POSOM?

no, me irrational

LOL, par for the course

Its not better on this side either sweety

I'm quite sure it's no better that side.

He sometimes calls in the morning. All mornings are something we need to POJA - whether he is at work or here

Is he into Poja/undertands it?

you have mail BTW

We have used it once before I think and often if I suggest something to him and he agrees I ask him whether he is really happy to do it.

I wasn't avoiding the POSOM q by the way, I can do it, but it just gets tiring and I'm fed up of the constant battle in my head - it's v distracting.

LOL
I asked Flick what worked for him and he said shouting LA LA LA LA LA inside his head worked best.
He also said about 9 months down the track you will suddenly realise that you havent thought about the POS for sometime.

He also suggests talking to an as close to nutural person as you can find helps, off loading without reinforcement. These people are hard to find

Thanks Flick and Lil. LALALALALALALALALALALALA Actually, that works quite well. I can't wait for that day to come!!

I am really happy for you, ST. It reads that you and your H are working together to make this recovery progress. Going through the forms, really communicating about MB stuff, getting specific examples of what is and is not working for your two... I'm envious!

Say it loud so those in the back of the room can hear you, Sista!

Yay!

I don't even admit this here on MB any more. I feel like such a failure when I bring up any struggles that have anything to do with the FOM, so I've stopped doing so. Just know you have company with this.

Keep going, ST. Sometimes I feel alone in my recovered FWW quest as others here on MB are falling off the wagon. But in you I have a companion and hopefully we can lift each other up.

Of course Lildoggie helps too. (Hi, Lildoggie!)

Hi L4.
Hey dont forget Jen in the FWW recovered quest

And please, just amoung us friends let us not stand on formality...its LIL

LOL

It reads like that and I'm pushing it, can I push myself too hard?

Then of course there is the slight doubt that creeps in - am I making the wrong future?




Thank you for letting me know i have company with this - I had wondered. Thing is if something is in my head I have to get it out in the open. It isn't failing - it's just trying sooo hard


Thank you L4; I was only just beginning to work out that actually there aren't too many like us here. I'm not sure that I am comfortable with FWW yet. I wonder what j thinks..

And I'm certainly you on. Thanks lil for keeping an eye on us.

I'm not keeping an eye on you lol, that sounds like a scary person. I just like 'nice' people, I admire waywards who are trying to stop being so, and if I can help, I will. You and L4 are amazing women, and i like you both

Feeling slightly ambivalent today, did you guess?

He was a funny b**g*r this morning, and said some odd things all because our plans (which we had with my sis) changed due to the weather and a funny noise on the car. I tried at every point to involve him in a change of plan, asked exactly what he wanted to do but at every Q he just said "do what you want". I kept telling him that I'd like to know what he wanted but he wouldn't say. Just kept geting cross - I know he wanted to spend time with me and DS and I was giving him that opportunity but he also knew that I had promised sis to help her get some stuff for my nieces christening (Sis does have Faith). Both could have been done.

We continued discussions on the phone and then he revealed that he was upset about my post on here yesterday about the battles in my head. Which of course I understand and I am sympathetic to. I do have to be O&H about this don't I?

So he said:

" I just want it to be the 4 of us for the next 3 months"

I replied "mum is just about to start treatment for breast cancer" and hung up

We haven't mentioned it tonight.

Call me a renter, and maybe I am, but there is No Way I will drop my family ever.

Drgnfly noted on a GQ thread about earning an F, that BH should award it. J's answer to the "have I earned my F yet?" Q was met with "possibly".

Fair enough.

I dont know that I ALWAY ageee with the BS awarding the F, but generally it is the normal way.

I consider Jen as having conquered her quest, having actually recovered her M. She's a role model. I'm still on the journey. I know I deserve my "F" and everyone can debate that until the cows come home. I don't care. I know my heart, my EPs, my struggles, and my head. I am an "F". But as for recovering my M... That journey is still underway. (If you've ever seen Monty Python and The Holy Grail, think of me with coconuts, clip clopping along, on my mission...)

Okay, okay... I got it, LIL.

Wow. Have you been living in my head the last week or so?


Lil can be our troop leader.

Keep going, ST. Keep it going...

I checked with my cows.
they say you deserve the F

and we LOVE the holy grail. Not as much as the life of brian

Lil

You know what? I do that too.........

Affairs are equal opportunity brain messers.

for our future sanity :crosseyedcrazy:

Both J and I struggle with the F because I have my "in my head battles" to get those memories out.

I'm not going back there!

It is only 4months since the end of a 18month+ A. I wish it would go away.

Hi st ( and Looking4 if you're reading here),

There are indeed far fewer FWW here than BWs, but there are more than you think. The trouble seems to be that they do not post in Recovery much, if at all, so it might take a while for you to come across them. If you do, however, you should tie a rope round them and lead them here to talk to you. Don't let them go if you find one: they are wonderful.

The kind of FWW that sticks around on MB after her affair has ended and she has worked on her marriage is a beautiful creature. Not all FWW here have recovered marriages, but that is because it takes two to recover a marriage and the BH does not always work towards that. Regardless, "our" FWWs are priceless. My own favourites are MrsWondering and aussie'swife, whose stories I have traced and read through, and who inspire me greatly. However, lifeschoice, coacheswife, Lexxy (or it might be Lexxxy) Jean36 and several others are also wise and wonderful, and I recommend them too. I cannot remember all the names just now, but I will let you know when I do.

About those thoughts: you could try using a self-help programme. Paul McKenna's book and CD I can mend your broken heart seems really good to me. It takes Flick's LALALA technique to a higher level. It teaches you to train yourself to associate the person you had the relationship with with bad, dull, monochrome and unpleasant images, and to "whiteout" scenes that you replay in your head so that you cannot see them any more. If you can associate that person with lack of pleasure, you will find it much easier to keep thoughts of him away.

McKenna's technique is based in hypnotherapy, which some people do not wish to try for religious or other reasons. However, if you're not opposed, you could browse this book in a bookshop or library to see what you think.

Alternatively (or additionally) If you like, I can put you off FOM by telling you repeatedly, in very colourful language, what a spineless, pathetic toe-rag he is. Just let me know.

I'll look them up, see if I can make some more friends.

Thanks for your post sugarcane. Please keep telling me what a spineless, pathetic etc etc he is. Hypnotherapy sounds like a good idea to me. I manged to use some selfhypnosis techniques succesfully, in labour with DS.

Note here from H, left this morning when I went to work.

ST,
I am very sorry that I drove you to an affair. There is nothing I can do about that now.

I can not give anymore than I am doing. I find you a very angry and short fused individual at the moment. I don't want to be with somebody like that any more, I need somebody who can live with me in my current mental state and it is becoming clear over the last couple of weeks that you have lost your patience with me in that area. Your lack of physical contact towards me (hugs & kisses) turns my stomach.
You are constantly reading books on how to solve our problems, yet seem to be finding more reason to hate me for them.

This morning I came in with the intention of helping you and what thanks did I get? basically an insulting comment about me being a zombie. I am sorry I don not go straight to the next thing that needed to be done but I was a little bit tired. It would not have hurt you to have a bit more patient.

I am sorry I upset you with what I said about how you spoke to the kids but it was how you spoke to me that upset me(not the kids). Up to that point I did not deserve it. I do not see why you are stressed in the morning - why don't you get up earlier?

I honestly think we are doomed. I can not see a way through the morning situation at the moment. I have tried to help by staying up, this is met with resentment, i have tried to get out of the way and this is met with resentment. I do not know what to do.

We had a good chat on the phone last night and this morning when I come to you in bed it is as though nothing happened.

I really want to talk to you but I don't think we can do it. I think we hate each other too much. I can not see you ever loving me again. I am really going to miss you and the kids.

We need to decide whether we can do the holiday before I post the cheque. If not we may as well use the money to finsh the house and sell it.

We relly need to discuss this and our options. I want to support you given your current situation with your mum and aunty. I am talking to you more that I ever did, I am a lot calmer than I ever was but it seems that the better I get the further away you are gettting. It really upsets me.

Whatever I have done to make your skin crawl when I touch you ( I can feel it) I do not see can ever be undone. I am sorry.

You only respond to me when I am angry or say the wrong things. When I try to be fun you just ignore me or scowl at me.

If you want a chat wake me up. I need to talk to you before I go to work. If it was possible to take the night off tonight I would but I have training and I am in charge tonight. I would like to think you would have missed band.

I love you but can't love being with you at the moment

J xxx

For the record: I take full responsibility for the affair and tell him so repeatedly, that I chose to strike up a friendship and I let it go to far and I believed that I was entitled to some friendly conversation and attention.

St, this is an emergency.

I have always suspected that your H feels worse about your affair than you realise, at least judging from your comments at the beginning of this thread. You seemed to think then that the affair hadn’t devastated him. I wonder if also, the fact that he has been so willing to read and do the questionnaires, and has not shown huge distress and resentment, has encouraged your feeling that things are better for him than for many BHs here.

Well, he is obviously suffering badly, and not only from the affair but also from your behaviour towards him since it ended. You have got to do something about your behaviour if you do not want your marriage to end. You cannot continue to indulge your feelings and let them show in your behaviour; his feelings are on the critical list now, and only your behaviour can change them.

I’m going to reprint part of a post I made to Looking4 in November 2008, when she had only been here about 3 weeks. I was using my feelings on D Day 2 to explain how the BW in her situation was probably feeling. You’ll need to substitute a few examples that would fit a husband, rather than a wife, and probably take out the bit about the grey hairs and the ageing face since your H is young, but I hope you can get the point about how BSs feel when they discover the affair. They question the whole marriage and their spouse’s feelings for them.

Add your continued physical rejections to the massive rejection he has already experienced and you must be able to see that he is in misery. You have to do something about that. It is not enough to say that you have taken responsibility for the affair. If you continue make him feel this badly by your actions, then his recovery stands no chance.

You have to compensate him for what you have done to him, and rejecting him as you appear to do in these specific ways WILL NOT DO. It has to stop.

I don't want to hear any defence or statements about what you do right, st. I want to hear what you are going to do about what your H has loudly and clearly identified. I want to support you, but I will not coddle you.

No defence. compensate? How, when I do feel uncomfortable being close, can I stop it feeling like I do?

I do make effort to hug or kiss, but I can't make it feel right?

I have been trying _ I know in the wrong ways to get me to really love him.

Where do I start?

Why can't I love him properly?

I know that HNHN and SAA address the issue of affection, although probably from the point of view of men who do not realise how much affection means to women.

How serious is this problem for you? Has it always been there, and has it got worse since the affair, or did the affair bring it on for the first time?

I read on another thread that you have a psychology degree, so you must understand better than I how behaviourism works. I think the Harley plan would say that if you carry out the acts, romantic feelings will follow. (I'm at work and don't have the books to hand.) However, I can see that if you have a severe aversion to the acts, you won't be able to bring yourself to carry them out, so this is where you seek additional help. If you had the money I would suggest paying for a few sessions with a behavioural psychologist (since the NHS won't stump up for this!) However, I should think that self-help books could teach you a lot. More money, I know, but not a great deal, and you could always try the library first.

Your H is on the emergency room operating table and you must act fast.

Stop asking why you can't love him properly and act. Stop focusing on you and your feelings and focus on the victim that you ran over.

I'm glad you're here, SugarCane. I remember your post to me well. I was sad when I read it, but also defensive if you recall. It was hard to read then and still is now.

ST -

If it's been only 4+ months and your A was 18 months long, it's likely you're still in withdrawal. How much do you know about this time? How much does your H know about withdrawal?

In my case, my intense A was much shorter than yours -- 4 months. And I was hard and cold to my H for a good 3 to 4 months afterward, as I questioned everything about my M and myself and tried to rid myself of feelings for FOM. H didn't know what I was going through since he was unaware of the A, but he knew something was definitely up. I didn't know then, but I was going through big-time withdrawal. I can't help but think you're going through a multitude of emotions right now and your H is feeling the impact of that chaos inside you.

I'm sorry I don't recall... Have you ever met with the Harley's? I have only one time, but it was soooo helpful to me. If you haven't, I highly recommend it for your both. If your H is unwilling, you should do so alone.

I'm here.

-L4

When you reject him, he feels like your heart is still with the OM. It is a knife in his heart. You must also stop the LB's and do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to help heal your husband. The note that your husband left you made me so sad. He sounds like he is giving up. How did that make you feel? Were you sad for the hurt that you have caused or did it make you mad?

It made me feel sad that he feels like this. If he gives up that is his choice.

HE just got up, I touched his hand and kissed him because I feel sorry for him.

This is when i can reach out to him when I feel sorry for him.

he has gone now to wish our niece happy b'day and then to work.

I'm glad you're here too, L4.

We're certainly finding ways of spending st's money for her, aren't we!

I haven't spoken with the Harleys, I would like to but I don't think the cash is available to me.

I wish he would post here so that you guys can help him.

You can help him! You are right there with him. He wants you to care about him and the pain that you have caused. He wants compassion not rejection.

Very sadly I need to do children things now. Thank you so much all of you for being there. Please keep trying to help me find my way through.

Sometimes I can touch him but I do have this aversion quite a lot. If I explain it will sound like an excuse - but it is very real to me and this only part of the reason. I'm not sure where the rest of the aversion comes from.

Messy head.

st, you have no time, nor any right just now to show your withdrawal. I understand a bit of how you must feel, because I, like most people, have been through broken relationships (apart from my marriage). I know that it must be hard, but showing how you feel is an undulgence that you must forego. You know now how your H feels. You caused that, you must stop adding to his pain and you must grow up.

The day Jermaine Jackson got married, I was about 13 (1972-ish) and I cried all day, and so did all my mates. I'm a grown up now, with children to take care of, and I can't cry over fantasy lovers any more. You're a lot younger than I (and you probably don't even know who Jermaine Jackson was!) but you have to grow up, stop crying over your fantasy lover and help your H.

How doI show compassion?

Id on't know how to help him?

I have to go home now, st, so I'm not sure when I'll be back. I'm sure others will give you good suggestions. However, in the meantime, black_raven's short thread on "earning the F" (or something like that! F as in Former wayward) might help. It's on GQII. There have been lots of threads about helping the BS. I'll look some up.

PS: check your email.

Today couldn't possibly be any busier for me though I want to be here. I am not the expert on this, ST, and you know this from my thread. But I may be a slightly further along than you. I know what I'm supposed to do and while it can be very hard sometimes and hard to practice, right now it needs to be all about your H.

I'll see if I can pull stuff from memory or reference some of the great advice I got a bit earlier in my journey to share with you here.

I have a three-hour training I have to jump into here, and a very full day. But I'll come back when I can.

Listen to SC. It's about your H right now. Short and sweet, if you want him to heal and you want to recover your M, he needs to KNOW that you NEED him -- that HE is the one YOU CHOSE.

Yep, I did choose him. See, I don't get it. Now I want him again. It just isn't fair on him is it?

It is so strange to comprehend, how you can want someone but not how you can be so desperate to make it work one minute and then not give a s**t the next

ST,

I don't know all the details of your situation. But, I've read a bit of it today.
Let me give a bit of my point of view.

As a BH, there are days I can't believe that my FWW wants to be with me. This is her second A. She is doing many of the right things. But like all of most marriages in these situations it's a work in progress. MY number 1!!!! Need from her is to come first in her life. I feel that so much of the rest will fall into place if she makes me feel that way.

That's why so many A happen. The OP does that for the WS, and the marriage becomes secondary.

I often feel jealous of her, that she got that kind of attention from an affair, while I got nothing at the time from our disfunctional marriage.

It's not about loving your spouse it's about being IN LOVE with your spouse. Most WS love their BS, just aren't in love with them. We all get lazy and take things for granted.

There are days I want to give up. Days I hurt so bad thinking about what my FWW did. Those days are beyond hard for me. On those days nothing my FWW can do will help.
But if she's there, willing to keep moving forward and showing me she's still committed during the hard times...It pays off big time!!
As I said, I don't know much about your situation with your husband, but if you are committed to him, you want him, want to be (or are) in love with him, show him every chance you get, tell him 100 times a day.
My opinion has become, that if you aren't IN LOVE with your spouse, there isn't any reason to remain married. Even if you are doing all the right things. What really makes things work is being in love.

We can't choose our family, but we can choose who we love.

I made the choice to work on my marriage and love my wife. My wife made a similar choice.

ST, if you are doing all the right things, just remember you can't choose for your husband. You can do the best you can given the situation and the past.

ST.

I said I'd pop over and check in on your thread so here I am. It's not been a great couple of days for you, or your H. I'm so sorry you are both in such pain. It's heartbreaking to read.

You are getting really good advice and there isn't anything constructive I can really add, but maybe a couple of observations may help.

I've never been a wayward so cannot offer much in the way of understanding of your feelings at the moment, compassion yes, but not understanding. However, it sounds a little like your head made the decision to choose your H and your heart is playing catch-up. Your heart cannot catch up though because you closed it to your H, and haven't made the real decision to open it up to him yet. Yes, I know you are there with him, sharing the house and everyday stuff, but I don't get the impression that you are really WITH HIM.

I think in order to have an A, a person has to demonise their H/W, and especially so in a LTA, when you are constantly having to justify your wayward decisions. During this time you look for every opportunity to dislike/hate/find disgusting your H/W. It becomes very easy to dislike someone if you are constantly looking and hoping to find fault in all they say and do.

If you lie to yourself often enough, you begin to believe the lies, and before you know it your justifications about your behaviour become your truths about the reasons for the A, ie your H's failures/issues/shortcomings. Even if you make the decision to work on your M, it seems an impossible task because you have spent sooooooo long demonising your H, that you cannot bear to be near him.

Your H sounds as though he is in terrible anguish, and I'm not surprised because you are telling him in every non verbal way that you are not in love with him.

It is still very early days in the recovery for you both and you are still in withdrawal, but you need to find it in yourself to reach out to your H, not in a sexual way but in a compassionate way. He is in pain and needs your touch. Rebuilding takes time, and is difficult. I am so sorry that you are both suffering so much.

I hope I am making some sense. I'm sorry if I'm completely off track. Just ignore me if I'm talking nonsense. I really just wanted to offer my support.

You're both in my thoughts.

Just a guess but your fluctuating in and out feelings are a sign of your in and out of love feelings. Remember in SAA when the woman noticed that somedays she felt love and other she didnt but they came more and more often?
As far as Af for Mr ST, Af is my #1. It is Flicks #6. So we had to work out an agreement of what MY minimum requierments of Af were going to be (my need, i decided when its filled) To start with he agreed to hug me 5 times a day, kiss me 10 times a day ranging from a peak on the cheek to an out and out snog He also had to pay me one outrageous complement a day. After 2 weeks I up'ed the hugs and lowered the kisses. Oh yes, he was not to end a hug...ever. I decide when its finished.
9 months down the track I get lots of hugs and kisses ad pats and touches, as well as giving them. in fact he has become so used to the level of Af I require that he himself gets snippy if there hasnt been enough Af that day LOL.

I heard a saying once, "men want to be needed, women need to be wanted"

Thank you. I have read and digested to some extent. J has read and digested. I'd like to pull some of this together and then tell you what I have been doing.

SugarCane

Thank you for the sense of urgency you have given me.

It still really helps to think of you BSs that post as being mine, sometimes I just need reminding of what you have suffered.

L4, it was reading your thread that made me realise I wasn't able to go all out in the fashion that you do. Made me reflect -only I just looked or excuses not to rather than getting on with the fight. Let's hope I can get on top of myself



I am reevaluating - I have talked to him.

Thank you L4

Thank you DD. When a BS posts to me it gives me lots of thinking to do and I can then ask lots of Qs that J may not know he has or question whether he has the same thoughts so that I can better understand his suffering and work out where I need to go to help repair.


J says that he wants to come first, so that everything else falls in to place. You saying it doesn't seem unreasonable at all, so why should I think it is when he asks for it?



...pause for thought

it's been worse than that, sometimes it's been total ambivalence

I know that A hurts and that J does have thoe thoughts particualrly when I can't get close but he has just said that the most enormous hurt is the hurt he is sufering now, when I can't get near him when I can't work out whether I love him and when i don't give him the time of day.


Thank you DD for helping me here and I hope you 2 continue to want to make it work.

I have just replied to this post but it's disappeared so here I go again.

I am so pleased that I stopped by your thread the other day and made that connection. Funny, the timing. I now see the light.


I am so relieved that I have got the good advice especially today.


Sere, your observations are what I have been searching for. I think you have got to the bottom of this.

I keep reading on here that it is not about emotion - you have to let your head do the work, but maybe now I need to let my heart catch up - maybe I have to stop pushing and allow myself to feel (frightening).

This is it. Clarity. This is the key. I now know what I need to undo. J made some mistakes but he has worked so hard to correct them and it now seems that actually some of it was slightly out of his control.

I had a moment like this which led me to confess to the A and end it. I suddenly realised on NY Eve that he didn't deserve what i was doing to him and that he was a godd guy and that he was trying so hard and putting in the effort and that he was very likeable and kind. I seem to have forgotten that again.


I wish he was here now, I could reach out to him now. Please don't be sorry for me - i don't deserve that.
This makes perfect sense to me. It has given me that clarity to go on. I just needed to try and find out what went wrong.

Thank you sere

Thank you


I just said to j, I need a proper plan e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g written down, everything agreed.

I can do it.

I phoned J at 10.30, nearly 2 hours ago. He just kept saying "I just want you to be nice to me" and I guess he means mean it, rather than just going thorugh the motions.

Sere's post cleared my head.

I have written a list on our large hall mirror of things I have to do.

Top of the list in very very very big letters:

UNDO THE DEMONISATION
Look for all the good things
Write down all the good things
Keep looking forward
Be nice

The be nice should be at the top, but I've been trying that - I have to undo the demonisation first.

I still haven't been in this marriage, i've kept myself on the outside looking in - or actually I think I have kept J on the outside.

And J, well, he just keeps going. He doesn't think I can do it, doesn't want to believe I can and who can blame him. I told him I did it, I can undo it. Now I have to act. Despite all of this he has tonight planned an itinerary for our holiday in August!!! Is he wonderful or crazy?

This is a total lightbulb moment for me, much like the 31st December. Let's hope I can catch it and keep it going, no, I'll rephrase that - I will catch it and keep it going.


If I get cr%p please can you point me back here to this light bulb moment. Ah, actually I'll see if I can put it in my sig line.

Thank you everyone today.

I would like to know, does anyone else believe i can do it?

Abso-flippin'-lutely. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is what you do.

This entire post was great, serendipitous.

You can do it ST. I totally believe you can do it. I'm with you all the way and will offer any support I can..

I cried as I read your recent posts. I am so very pleased you posted to me and allowed me to post here to you. If I've helped you even in the tiniest way, then I am thrilled beyond words.

Everyone here sees that you want to do it and that's why you're getting such great support and advice from all these people who care for you whether wayward or betrayed. We just admire you for wanting to put things right, for the work you are doing, for your openness, honesty and willingness to lay yourself bare here in order to heal both yourself and your H.

It really isn't hard for me as a BW to say that I admire you.

Now get to work with that H of yours.

I am here, believeing and praying for you.

YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!!

so can Mr ST, bad feelings come and go.

Thank you people.

I got up this morning and he is still being so sweet. I have gone through the morning wihtout a cross word or impatient glare and it wasn't hard.

J did the school run and saw my sis there - he told her I'd been up 1/2 the night putting the world to rights (and then just as I was going to bed at 2am, DS woke up for a wee but refused to go for an hour and a half- just kept having tantrums). I just spoke to her on the phone and she asked for my conclusions - I told her about my light bulb moment. She sort of seemed disappointed - I have some thinking to do on this, ie work out how she fits in to the picture -I'm not married to her. Her H needs a rocket up his butt but I don't make lots of point of telling her, just make suggestions on what she can do to improve her lot.

I'll keep posting
Staytogether

Sorry that was a rushed post - Darling darling darling darling son wants to go to toddlers ( do you detect any sarcasm?)

I'm so mean, I do love him really and I'm quite sure his strange behaviour in the night was down to me and I am really a sympathetic mummy. (((((DS)))))

I'd just hoped to sleep at 2am after all my ponderings

Thank you again to my wonderful supporters

ST and mr ST

Ooooohhhh, I know the horrible sleep deprivation of a toddler too. Our DS-3 has just been through a phase of waking at around 4.30-5am each morning, full of the joys of spring, and not at all willing to get in bed with us to get a little more shut-eye.

Little darlings aren't they?

Slightly worried about your sister and her reaction to your news this morning. Why is she unsupportive?

yuk yuk, I'm not a fan of 4.30 starts!!

I think because she is unsupportive because she has seen me very low after one of his aggressive phases. I have shared all my fears about H with her. I tried to explain the demonisation.

She is also a little bit upset because of our holiday in August.

We had a dreadful family holiday last year ( all 16 of us) at probably the lowest point in our relationship when I told my family of the violence ( not the A). He was dreadful on that holiday and couldn't stand being near me, it ruined the whole week for everyone. We have had other holidays with sis and on one such I was ill (in bed) in France and DS was only 8months DD3 and he had to take control and although capable he struggled with so many ohers around (4 couples and 4 children altogether) with the pressure.

So this year we suggested to the friends I mentioned before that they come away for the weekend with us (she was complaining that her H wouldn't take a break) which they did and we had a fantastic time, and now they have asked us to go for a week with them in the summer. My sis was put out that we'd go away with them but not her.

I have just explained to her that J wouldn't have dreamt that they would want to go away with us after our holiday track record. Her comment was "fine, you're rigth, I can't be doing with his strops" I tried to point out again that I had largely caused his strops and that her opinion was based quite a lot on my complaints.

We'll see...

I understand. She's just worried about you, and I can see why. I am close to my sister and would be wary of her being in a R with any history of violence too.

He knows he must NEVER raise his hand to you ever again doesn't he? He is taking steps to help himself? I think I remember you saying he is waiting for an appointment with a specialist. Can your GP rush this through?

When my FWH was feeling low last year, for a few months before the A, he started talking to his mum on the phone in a different room. Previously, he had always had conversations with her whilst I was in the same room. We don't see her too often as she lives about 80 miles away.

Because I knew something wasn't right, my imagination started to run riot with thoughts of what he must be saying to her, how he must be criticising me to her, and how they might be plotting against me. It did affect my relationship with her and I found it increasingly difficult to be as friendly with her as I had been.

If we had holidayed together at that time, I might also have acted negatively because I would have felt so insecure in her company wondering what she may know about my life that I was not privvy to.

It was all madness because in reality he never discussed me with her at all, but your H probably knows that you have discussed him with your sister, and his imagination must also be running riot, so the air needs to be cleared. He needs to know exactly what your sister knows about his life.

Your sister needs to be reassured that you are safe and that you are a big girl now, capable of making the right decisions for yourself and your children. If she sees you growing in strength and happiness, she will stop worrying so much and will be more accepting of your decision to stay with your H.

Take care ST and thank you so much for posting on my FWH's thread. I really appreciate your comments.

He knows he mustn't. He has found a great book about Anger for Men which seems to be shining a light on a lot of things for him. NHS rush???!!!

I have cleared the air with both of them and spend time going through all my thoughts and feelings and trying to enlighten each of them to the other's thoughts andd feelings. I can't abandon my sis at the mo. Mum starts her chemo on the 11th and we both need each other for childcare. Her and her H make selfish demands of each other permanently and her H is bieng made redundant in Oct - He gets a great big pay off for staying til then as well as redundancy pay but it is of course still very unseetling for them.
She has our 2 so that we can spend UA time together and I want to do something for her too. I just need to make sure that it is all POJAd properly with J.

Thank you

Hi st,

I hope you have recovered from my whipping the other day. I'm sorry I could not get back here before, but I was reading and I could see that you are getting really good advice.

I don't think you should let the sense of urgency die down because J is saying no more about wanting to leave (if that is the case). If you treat this as just a wobble, you might well stop thinking about what you must do for J, everyday, all the time. His feelings have not gone away, no matter how settled he seems now to you, and his grief WILL emerge again.

He does not want to extract a pound of flesh from you for your affair, and he does not want to live in misery and conflict. He is trying not to be a slave to his feelings or to ruin your everyday lives, but his feelings are still there, and still as bad.

He wonders every moment whether you did what you did because you cannot stand him, and he cannot imagine how you can give up the high of the affair and be happy now in the very same marriage you escaped from. He wants to be married to you if you want the same, but he thought you wanted that before, and he turned out to be very wrong (at least, that's how we BSs see it. How else can we interpret our spouse's turning away from the marriage to be with someone else?) He spends his time trying to read your mind and interpret your body language and behaviour. Even when you seem to be into him he wonders whether you are faking. He doesn't want to walk out on a potentially good future but he does not know you any more, or whether you want the same things as he does. All he has to go by is your behaviour (not your words), and your behaviour has come across to him as flinching from and rejecting him. This has to stop.

I thought Lil's post about stipulating what Flick has to do to meet her need for affection was most valuable. I think you should ask J to give you a similar list, and if he won't because he thinks it unnatural, you should follow Lil's list and do something very similar.

You must start the morning with hugs in bed and a kiss when you part for the day. You must kiss when you meet again, and be awake when he goes to bed so that you can hug and kiss again. There should be other affectionate acts such as cuddling on the sofa in the evenings. You must do these things every day, willingly, with the intention of making J feel loved. Remember, you have to meet his needs now and repair what you did, urgently. There is no room for excuses about how you feel.

I'm quite good at being bossy, aren't I? Believe me, if I see you not working at this I'll be much worse. And I haven't even started talking about spineless FOM yet...

I know. He's doing a great job

I couldn't stand him before the A started.

It is a totally different marriage to the one I escaped form and has been since about August/September last year



I was turning away form the marriage ( although not to be with someone else


Yes he does - it drives me mad - pushes me away, makes me feel trapped.




I agree, if I jave a plan like this, I find it much easier to undertake the task in hand
usually, although I get wound up if I an't do it in peace and quiet without the kids yep, do this. I think I am slighty better at this htese days than him, He seems tobe asleep before I get there.

I do do this everyday with the intention of making J feel loved but sometimes I struggle with the willingly bit - I do it but I know sometimes it is wooden - how do I stop that?

No excuses about how I feel, unfortunately I am not a very good liar and I do hug and kiss for him and I willingly do it for him but I cannot help it if sometimes my body is fighting against my mind or something - I haven't yet found the emotion override button so that it isn't totally wooden and staged.



I am working at it - I'm not sure that we should mention spineless OM actually. I've just reread my original posts adn I think it was Mrs W commented that any discussion on FOM would fuel my fire. Maybe I do need a list of crap things about him though.

Well,
J is out on the beer tonight, in the town where he works. He'll be back on the train in the morning. I should be doing a workout DVD but I'm not.

Today i have looked back over my original posts just to get an idea of how far along we have moved, I guess to try and keep me going.

My understanding of everything is vastly improved but there are still some things that i just can't seem to get on top of.

JustLearning and LovingAnyway worte some tremendous posts to me and did fantastic work for me in those early days - I don't think I appreciated it quite as much as I should have done back then. So I'd like to say an enormous thank you to them. Actually i might pop over to GQ or EN and post that there, I don't think I've ever seen them in recovery.

Everything feels ssssssoooooooooooo heavy.



I'd better go ring J before he has too many

Well,

I think it's been going quite well again. O&H conversation makes such a difference.

On a different tangent I had a teeny teeny taste of the boot on the other foot today. Very starngely for the first time in years and years I was v nervous about him going out last night, very paranoid about what he was up to.

This morning I tired to wang a billion questions at him about his evening which with quite a hangover he found very difficult to keep on top of....

I found it very easy to read into the pauses

I found it very easy to read in to the stumbles

I found it very easy to read in to the deleted text messages...

But I am as near certain that I can be that he behaved himself.

I guess this is because I know that there is so much J is still lacking from me and that now I understand how these things happen I know it is possible. We have both talked about EPs though and he has said that he just wouldn't be bothered to start anything with anyone else - life is manic enough as it is.

Anyway - it gave me a bit of a taste of the nasty stomach churning feeling, the total tension all across the top of the head, down the arms into the fingers. The desire to just bolt.

How do all you guys do it? How do you live with us? love us?

I am so sorry

OK then, so now I'll tell you what I have been doing. I went to meet J form the train this morning - managed to negotiate with DD so that I could go by myself (cost me £8 and a session at the pottery studio). So that I could go and wrap my arms round him give hima big hug an snog and tell him honestly how much I have missed him. I sent text messages to tell him how cute he looked and how great his new haircut is. I phoned him while he was out (which he likes) to say goodnight and have a quick conversation about today. THis morning I took him for a coffee, and we sat outside in the sunshine in town - and although I had anoverwhelming urge to drag him around the shops I didn't.

Now, I know in the scheme of things I have done nothing. But actually I have done something - and I have put him first several times today instead of the "if ever". I have been acting rather than just saying.

The most amazing thing is that I haven't found it hard, I haven't had to make myself and I have enjoyed it.

Must go, he's back form the shop with my giant choc buttons.

Thank you again everyone

ST this is awesome!,

Not just getting chocolate buttons which is always a good thing and where's my share???

What a great example of pushing yourself (and discovering you enjoy it lol) and meeting J's EN's. I can't remember the quote exactly I read here once, but it was something like do the actions and the feelings will follow, and I guess this is an example of that.

Thanks Lil
I am doing it. I feel I need to put in more effort when I keep reading about L4s trials. She is inspiring.


There are a few left - i'll shove 'em down the line for ya.

( can you believe it ST has choc left 2 days after it was bought?)

I have been undoing demonisation with Sis too, I bumped into her today and she said " you're right you know", "I like him again - he isn't annoying me" "it just goes to show the influence you have on me" "He's really sweet".

It was my niece's Christening yesterday so we spent all day together (all the family)sort of helping out at the party afterwards (1st b'day too).

So, must get off the PC - he''l be home from work soon and I must be ready and waiting to receive him - oh dear, I didn't mean it like that.

Thought I'd bring this right to your door!

We say this all the time. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

Yes you did.

= ST & Mr. ST

Kind of like, "I sat my bum on the chesterfield, eh, took a drink of pop, and looked out at my ga-raj (garage). I counted my Loonies and Toonies to see if I could buy a two-fer of Kokanee, eh, then decided to call Mum to shedjule (schedule) a hockey game on the pond, eh, which is 3 clicks away. A beauty of a day, eh?"

I speak Canadian.

Gosh! I didn't know they spoke a different language! You all sound the same to us, with the exception of the funny way they pronounce the "out" sound.

Ducking now...

don't forget

For my benefit. A link to Pep's thread.

I speak kiwi and I understood every word you said
No I know why you understand me LOL

Just popping in after a weekend away from MB to say hello and let you know that I'm still here supporting you.

Glad to read that things are going well and that you're making progress. It's still a rollercoaster though. Sometimes I forget that and get taken by surprise when I have a bad day or even a bad thought.

Don't be too hard on yourself in your bad moments, or when things seem really tough. The one step backwards isn't too bad when you've taken two, three or four steps forward, and you are making great strides in the right direction.

Hope you had a nice BH weekend?

OK,, things have been ticking along quite nicely and I have been being affectionate still, just thought I'd reread some stuff. Just renewing this sense of urgency...

I know I'll send him a nice email for when he gets to work tonight and grab him and snog him when he gets in from toddlers. (apologies if that was too much info). I can't go back on it if I write it down.

Thanks for dropping in. BH was good thanks. Just trying to recover monetum at te moment before it drops - J's doing nights and I think this is when my effort wanes.

Ooooooh, a snog sounds a great idea. I'm going to pop in the office and give FWH a smacker too.

Let's send our snogfest around the world. Who's next?

Well, I did a lot of snogging last night in bed (blush!) and a bit more this morning, but I'll try and give/get several more tonight, just to keep the chain unbroken.

I think you've got my house bugged, ya sound just like my 20yr. old.

Smarty pants ....

Okay, I give up .... what's a 'snog' ??? Now is this a British term?

Sugarcane, how do you say out, we say it like this 'out'

Vittoria, you might know a "snog" as a "French kiss". Yes, it's a British term, but I thought you lot would know it, even if the Americans don't! You're supposed to attached to us by an umbilical cord!

No, you don't say "out"; your version does not have the "wow" sound in it. You say it like a Scot might say it if he or she had lived in North America for decades - not quite "oot" like a Scot but not properly, either.

It's a good job you can't smack me from there!

oops! I forgot as soon as he got in.

I made up for it nom though - next opportunity 4.30!


keep up the good work!

I'd rather be a smarty than a dummy.

And SC's right. You do say "out" more like oot. Y'all go "oot and aboot, maybe dropping by Tim Horton's once ah-gane (again) before playing lacrosse against a bunch of hosers." (I could go on and on... Of course all done with much love.)

My father grew up in Manitoba. He is the only Yankee among the 7 kids in his family. His mother was one of 17 -- most of them also hanging around up there. So I have boatloads of kinfolk scattered among the Great White North. I've been to plenty of family reunions from Regina to Vancouver Island, Fort McMurray to Waterton Lake.

Anyway... Back to ST. I'm glad you're snoggin' up a storm. You go, Girl!

Thats a great idea! A sort of accountability thing.

So.....did ya??


ETA: oops, just got caught up, never mind, carry on

You guys are too funny over here, funny talk land.

I get the 'snog' now, tongue is the key!

ST .... snog away, I like snoggin' too.

Little notes are great, amazing how a wee bit of paper can do so much good!

So how many words can we find for SNOG?

snog

French Kiss
Frenchy

I haven't earned my F yet.

I haven't yet got in touch with the girl that is a friend of omw to tell her about A and NC. Not for any decietful reason, I do now have her number. Hvae delyed 'cos i know she has exams and because her mum is friends with my mum and although my mum knows I don't want to casue her the embarassment of her friends knowing.... I know, I know, crap excuses, i'll do it tomorrow night (it's 10.37 here now and bed time).

See i've written it, I am accountable - tomorrow night!!!!!

How do you know the girl doesn't know? If she's friends with the OM's W, and especially if the OM's W knows you know this girl too, there's a chance the girl does know. And if she doesn't, it might be that OM's W doesn't want her to.

Don't let that stop you from telling if you need to as part of your recovery and your H's healing. But don't take away from what you've done here, ST. We all have more we can do, but don't dismiss the hard work you've been doing.

There are many people I've wanted to tell but my H is more of a private person and he'd prefer we not expose on the grander scale that I've felt necessary as part of my punishment. So we haven't. There are people we know who also know FOM and his wife who do not know about the A. We don't hang out with these people on a regular basis (they live in other states), but our paths cross occasionally through work or group emails. As of now, H and I have opted to keep the A quiet.

Are we still doing the snogging thing????

My contributions are:
Lip lock
Swapping spit
Pash
Sucking face

tonsil hockey
slipping the tongue
macking
deep kissing

Forgive any repeats....

box tonsils,
buss,
exchange spit,
Frenchy,
give a tonsillectomy,
snag tonsils,
play tonsil hockey,
gag sugar,
tongue it,
get lip action,
kissy-face,
licky-face,
make out,
smacky,
lock lips,
mouth wrestle,
muckle,
osculate,
perform PDA,
plant a big one,
kissy-poo,
plant a smacker,
kissy-poo,
kissy-face,
pucker up,
smack,
smooch,
spoon,
suck face,
swap spit,
tongue wrestle,
slurp syrup,
having tongue sushi,

Hold the phone here... I know you're an experienced, married woman and all, Lil but you had to have used Wikipedia. Otherwise, my hat is off to you and I bow down. (And Flick better know how flippin' lucky he is. )

So far snog, muckle, and macking are my favorites.

LOL, I googled it.

I quite like osculate

I have to agree - osculate is def my fave.

j likes suck face :crosseyedcrazy: yuk

Well, I am off to osculate now. Have a good weekend you lot.

Sere, why don't you come and join us over here with your thread?

I cant osculate, I had peanut butter toast, and that incures a no osculating period of 3 hours and 2x toothbrushing.

Hey, how did the accountability thing go?

Gag sugar? LOL, what's up with that?

I like tongue wrestle. LMAO, I remember when I was in school some guy on the bus asked me if I wanted to tongue wrestle and I was like, "Ew, no" while thinking, does he mean kiss? I was in seventh grade. :P

tonsil hockey gets my vote


there's a lot on that list that I've never heard of ... I've lived a very sheltered life

ST, hope your osculating was successful!
reminds me rotating tires or somethin' ....

I'm getting a lot more into this osculatuing lark, sometimes I just do it spontaneously without planning it now!

You've been busy posting this afternoon V, what's going on where you are?

J is doing overtime today - Sunday overtime - double bubble, it's hard to say no!

You'll all be pleased to hear that I am dealing with my choc problem a lot better the last few days. Yesterday I just had a Freddo Frog (they're 15p and standard bar is about 50p) and today I just had a choc mint ice cream whilst out with sis, bil and the 4 kids. Did a worko jt last night focussing on the core and tongiht we'll do a cradio one together.

I should be on the healthy habits thread shouldn't I - oh well!

Oh, dear a nut allergy?



I'm not avoiding you, honest Lil

Ok, I have just done it. The music was handed to her by FOM and he just said give it to the trumpets ( well he knew full bleep well it was only me). She didn't know anything about it, but is now in a position to know not to be his messenger girl..

She hasn't spoken to OMW for a little while. I feel really uncomfortable - I have been honest with everyone about my A and have exposed to band members that have asked why I'm not going (I hadn't been in touch with this girl since I left until she gave me the folder, I have known her about 25 years). But she is very good friends with OMW (they used to work together) and they go out together. But I do now feel awful that OMW hadn't told this friend and obviously doesn't want everyone to know.

Well it's done now. yuk. well, it was my mess up.

Sorry ST, I just couldn't pass this up, you're cute.

It may have been afternoon for you but it was early morning here and I was just catching up with MB pals.

The choc thing, I try to keep a dark, like 80% cocoa, big bar in the cupboard and have a tad bit every day. Seems to help with the craving.

Really don't understand the fuss about chocolate. It's horrible. That slimy texture when it melts in your mouth. Yuck, yuck, yuck. I never eat the stuff, except when I put it in my special chilli-con-carne. It has to be the really dark 80% chocolate though. It's yum yum then.

I'm just very thankful that I hate chocolate. It'd take way too many more hours at the gym to work off chocolate calories.

Are things still going well ST? Been thinking about you this weekend. Good job on the exposure (had a smile to myself when I wrote that, pictured ST in a raincoat, exposing to passers-by). Did I read right, that you and H work out together? That's really good.

Me and my H play badminton together, but I make him play to the singles lines while I play to the doubles. It's only fair. We also play table tennis, but he's not allowed to spin the ball.

Do you run together? Just had a thought, you didn't mean naughty cardio did you?

Hi st,

I had no internet access for a few days and now I can't get into my hotmail account. I'll write to you tomorrow if I can get in by then, but to answer your question, I "snogged" (more blushes) on both Saturday and Sunday mornings. My poor son eventually had to demand that somebody came down to make him brunch on Sunday.

I'm going to have to teach him to use my new kitchen appliances. I much prefer snogging to cooking brunch!

I did a 4.5-mile run on Saturday and this morning to make up for my sins.

"I'm going to have to teach him to use my new kitchen appliances"

Easy cooked breakfast for kids
(Both my girls could cook this from age 7)

take one hashbrown out of freezer and place in microwave for 1 minute. when it is cooked put it in the toaster with a slice of bread (HB on one side, bread on other side, not both in one hole (dont ask why I have this disclaimer)) and cook. Take one egg, lightly beat in a bowl and nuke 30 seconds, stir, nuke another 20 seconds.
Butter toast, place egg on toast, put hashbrown on side. Eat.

Julia Child had nothing on you, Lil.

I am really sorry to bring the tone down over here but what a day.

Mum started her chemo today. She was very bright when I spoke on the phone with her before she went up this morning, so I was feeling reassured. J and I had gardening time planned for just the 2 of us, so I was looking forward to that.

Gardening went well after a little wobble at the beginning over what was to be done and then I took DS into town for his pre-school boosters.

We had drawn out a detailed planner on Sat for our week, including who was doing mornings when and everything else.

I got up bright and breezy but J was slightly irritable - fine, we're allowed some of them. I carried on being nice and friendly - see I was still undoing demonisation.

I went to the library in town this afternnon (as timetabled) to do some study away from the PC here. Phoned mum on the way, she was very pleased with the care she had recieved and organisation and the foot massage but I could tell she was beginning to feel a bit ropey, just offered my services.

Get home to dinner cooked - great! and I said so. J then totally flopped out. Understandable - he's had a v. physical and busy weekend. This is something I find hard to cope with and he knows, it's something he does when he is depressed. I asked whether he wanted to go and lie down in the bedroom for a bit or just keep going for another hour til the kids went to bed. He couldn't do either. Fine I decided I'd go out for a walk when the kids were in bed.

Spoke to sis to see if she wanted to come, she told me mum was now really ropey and she was going over.

I decided to take a short run over to see mum, my sis drove over. I satwith mum, while sis did the shopping and dad had a sandwich and did a few jobs that he wanted to do.

It was obviously v. sad to see mum like that. Sis gave me lift back, we drove around for a bit crying and then she says.
We sat on our drive for a bit and I was just telling her how dificult I find it to seek comfort from J because it tends to set him off
I'm not allowed to mention FOM am I? I said no. But of course I was so curious to know why at this point she had mentioned him. She told me.

When in town earlier (I had walked in with her for immunisations) as I was locking up the bike she could see FOM watching me(she was behind him), he chose in the end to keep walking. I know Is hould have done the LALALALALA thing but I didn't. I askedher if he knew about mum and she said yes but only because the other day he started talking to her about his sis who has justt started chemo..

When I knocked on the door to come back in the house, J opened the door but then just said "Why didn't you come round the back?"

It took him another 2 minutes to say (I was in the same room): "How are things?" At the time I ignored that but now i'm cross about it. I then said "J when I'm upset I still find it really hard to get near you, I'm worried about showing a weakness because of how you have behaved previously (basically sinking into sadness himself or being angry with me for eing upset). "huh, well there is nothing I can do about that", so I went over and kissed him and told him he had done nothing wrong but that I felt the need to find solace in the computer and added well you're watching the telly anyway. (Of course what I could have said was please will you turn the telly off and talk to me). He said "yeah it finishes soon". Well, that upset me, he didn't want to make the effort to console me.

When CSI finished he got up and went to bed, asked me to go with him but I still needed time to be sad and been being strong for sis and dad. He said "well I should have been in bed a long time ago but I couldn't 'cos I knew you didn't have a key" Att his point I remembered to tell him about FOM thing ( not sure whether that was a good time, but I thought sooner rather than later worked best). He just said she shouldn't say anything and walked off. Of course I know this.

SO here I am ****

So here I am feeling totally **** and alone again.

ST,

Ok so advice from a divorced man might not count, but you are not telling your BH what you really need. Also you are not giving him credit for amazing control about the near encounter and the fact that you discussed it with you sister.

Also these visits have got to be a trigger for him, I seem to recall that you did the OM at your Moms house during a supposed chemo visit.

He seems stable enough that you could tell him what you actually want him to do.

ST, I'm sorry that you are feeling so upset, it's very stressful when close family is sick. BTDT with both my parents.





PS ... 6yrs, I'm just catching up on threads, I'm not stalking you ... really!

Hi 6yl

I'm too scared still to ask for what I really need - I don't want to send him spiralling into depression because he feels he can't do the job. I wasn't aware of the near encounter until sis told me. I am very annoyed that she did and can only assume that it's cos of the stress in her life at the mo - she thought I needed more in mine!!




I think you have me confused with someone else. Mum started her chemo for the first time ever yesterday and I never ever did OM.


I sort of think I want him to be the strong one, but I'm scared of giving up my position as the strong one, still slightly reserved t showing my vulnerabilities.

Thanks 6Y

ST

thanks v

ST

Hi ST,

so sorry about the rough day. Starting the chemo is hopefully the beginning of the end of the C in your mum's body. A horrible but necessary process that enables a full recovery. Is this her first chemo? If so, it might not have the extremes of sickness, hair loss that you think, but it is going to be a very tough and stressful time for all your family, so you and J need to sit down and discuss coping strategies.

You cannot carry it all without some support from J, so let him know in advance that you're feeling vulnerable and fearlful about the coming weeks. Do not ask for anything specific during the first conversation but pause and wait to see what he offers to do for you. If nothing is forthcoming then you will need to ask for what you need, but try and let him figure out what he can do for you.

He might appreciate your vulnerability and rise to the occasion, but at the very least you need to have the conversation about the support you will need. Him not giving you support at the moment will drain your LB and you need to head this off if you can.

I too am very strong and independent, and hate people to see my vulnerabilities. I didn't realise that not showing this side of me to my H made him feel inferior because he felt he was weak in comparison to me. His perception of himself as the weak one, unable to live up to my standards of strength led in part to his depression and then his A. Men sometimes find it hard to be married to very strong women.

An observation about your sister. I am sorry but what she did was not friendly to you or your marriage. What is her agenda? If she has to speak to FOM she needs a strategy not to discuss you and certainly not to discuss her meeting with him with you. It's a really bad idea to have any lines of communication.

If I question your sister's motivations, then just imagine what must be going through J's mind?

I hope today is better for you ST.

It would be nice if you would apologise for that error, 6years. This is a grotesque accusation to read when it is not true.

st had an 18-month affair that became physical towards the end. She stopped the affair before it progressed to full sexual intercourse, confessed to her husband and came here for advice on exposure to OMW and rebuilding.

I think that the WW that you are referring to has not posted here herself. Wasn't this the wife of the poster who has had to do a runner for "decking the OM"?

J has fallen to pieces. He spent all morning with mum and dad. Mum is throwing up every 15mins - 1/2 hour with all the anti sickness they can throw at her. I have been there for a few hours this afternoon.

I have to be the strong one

st,

I won't say any more about your need for support because others have said it all, I think. Serendipity's post especially was superb.

However, I've always had a feeling about unfinished business with your situation and perhaps I should raise it now.

First: I don't think that OMW knows enough about the affair. I posted this on another thread you started some time ago.

J sent a letter to her workplace and told her not to open it at work. I think that she might have taken it home, told her H that she received it and was about to open it and he either persuaded her not to open it or he explained it away as the ramblings of a jealous H.

I'm just surprised that she never contacted J, and that she let her H continue in the band for a while. In fact, OM contacted J (or was it you?) to express his anger, didn't he? I find that all rather odd.

Second: You need to move. Neither J nor you can recover your marriage with OM living close by. Dr Harley is insistent on the need to move house if the affair took place in your district. If you think about it, yesterday's sighting could not have taken place if you had moved. You've also seen OM and his wife in a supermarket, haven't you? These sightings could take place at any time for years to come. You need to move.

I know that J did not take this idea enthusiastically when you mentioned it, and I know all about the British housing market just now. However, you can always find a buyer if you place your house at the correct price.

I have found recovery to be a huge task that requires major changes. Luckily my H's OW lives in Belgium and we have never had to consider moving house, but my H had to change jobs within his organisation so that he never travelled again. He saw her in Belgium when he was working there.

He had to take a (relatively small) pay cut and give up an interesting post in which he had autonomy and look for whatever he could get. He does not enjoy the new job and complains about it sometimes, but never at me, or as if he is blaming me for making him miserable. He tells funny stories about how "Reggie Perrin" it all is, but sucks it up with grace.

Affairs profoundly change how your BS sees you and your marriage. In taking the lead on moving you will be showing how seriously you take the task of compensating your H and rebuilding the marriage. You need to show extraordinary care for him even if he appears not to demand it.

I'm so sorry about your mum. People close to me have been through chemo and I know how grim it is. How many cycles does she have to have?

Describe "fallen to pieces", please.

tears, yeling, shouting

I ain't moving and leaving mum and dad now

promised dd i'd take her to her swimming lesson today. can't let her down in this chaos

thanks everyone for being there.

st, when you get back from swimming, could you slow down and tell us a bit more about J, and particularly about the yelling and shouting? What or who is he yelling at and about? What does he actually say? Who is he angry with, and why?

I sympathise because my own H has a very odd, angry response to illness. I'm just trying to work our whether J is being affected by an oncoming "down" period. What do you think?

I didn't mean that you should move now this minute, if such a thing were possible. As you know, it would take months to sell a house. I'm not saying that you even need to put it on the market this week. I asked about your mum's treatment; if it's planned to be about 3 months, as is common, you could tidy up the house in anticipation of getting it on the market in late summer. You do not have to say anything to your parents just now. If the treatment does not go well and your mum needs more in the autumn then you could think again then. You can't move now indeed, but this needs to be a goal for your marriage. Your mother won't always be having chemo, and your father will learn to cope with her recovery. While your parents need a high level of support just now, you must not take your eye off your marriage.

We're all worried about you ST. You're juggling way too many balls at the moment, and it will be impossible to keep them all up in the air.

Breathe!

Sit down for a minute and develop a strategy with J, with your sister, with her H if possible and with your dad.

You don't have to be superwoman. You're carrying too much at the moment, and there's no harm in asking for help.

What can you offload to friends and neighbours for the short term? What advice has the hospital given to you with regard to support for your mum?

Be still for a few minutes, breathe, and think about the advice you would give to someone else in your situation.

Hi, ST.

You posted this on March 26:
My answer? Yes.

You need your H now. Please do as 6YL, Sere, and SC have suggested and sit down with him to discuss coping mechanisms and how your family can get through the next few months. Please give your H the opportunity to be your strength, be your pillar, be your partner, be your husband. Let him and your home be your place of comfort during this very very difficult time. If he doesn't step up, then you'll have learned something. But I think it's unfair to not provide him with the opportunity to prove that he can be counted on to help you. ...That he can be your H in every way.

ETA: Last August our DD5 fell out of a 2-story window and was in PICU and the hospital for 5 days. It was terrifying. I was the take charge, be there for DD5 the whole time, arrange care for DS7, schedule visits, help with medication... I couldn't leave my baby's side. H wanted in though. He didn't like being at the hospital because it scared him and someone had to be with our son, but I interpretted it as him being chicken, not being able to handle things when the going got tough. Oh, and it just so happens I was going through withdrawal and was considering leaving H, so do you think my thinking was somewhat skewed?

We've talked about it since. You know why H wasn't there as I thought he should be? Because I didn't let him. I had to be in charge. I had to be in control. I had to do everything myself. And what did I get for it? I was totally exhausted. Completely. And I resented H. I look back and wish I would have let H in to help me with caring for DD5, with my emotional break-downs, and with my physical weaknesses. He was scared to death too. But I didn't give him the opportunity to do anything about it. I was horribly unfair to him during a very tough time, a time when we should have been depending on each other like husbands and wives should do.

Great post L4.

ST, there's a consensus of opinion here from those of us who have made the mistakes you are making.

Something really important I have learned is that there is no point being a giver in a relationship if you are keeping score.

I gave and gave, but in some part I gave to maintain the upper hand in the relationship. I was somehow superior because of all the giving I did and all the taking of others from me. I feared being a "taker" because I hated to be in "debt" to someone.

I have learned that about myself because of all the reading I have done since the A, and it isn't a pleasant thing to learn when you think you have been such a selfless and giving person.

Sometimes, taking from someone can be the most giving thing you can do.

Please take some help from someone, and give J the chance to be that someone.

HI guys

Thank you very much. I'm back. Things got mad. They admitted mum - she passes out when she throws up so has been unconscious a lot. I have just come back from the hospital where she is now talking, still sick if she tries to move. She has a real real problem with vomiting, it has always had a very very strange effect on her and very scary for everyone.

J was a wonderful support to my family this morning while I was at work. When I came home - i asked how things were and he said she's still lying on the floor throwing up all the time so I said " so the anti sickness injection hasn't worked at all" he said oh yes she is a bit improved. While I'm afraid I was cross because he just told me the doom and gloom bit first, Why couldn't he say " she has improved vry slightly with the injection". I did ask this probably in disrespectful tone and he went mental verbally.

Yelling and yelling at me that I was ungrateful and name calling etc. I tried to tell him that I was exceptionally grateful and that my Aunty was quite sure she would not have coped at all without him (running around getting prescriptions from dif places as they were out of stock) and with the state of her sis ( we are all close).

I said thank you but he still kept yelling. We got in the car to go to mums and he really really really let it go(this was the first point I was fearful of his anger and it lasted only v v briefly which shows how far he has come in controlling himself): he had suddenly realised that while his dad was having a hip replacement last nov I was having my A and wasn't interested in his dad at all. He was really struggling with dealing with his own need to help my family out when I hadn't been there for his. Very hard for him his mum and dad are 170 miles away and he is only child.

I apologised, he's right I wasn't interested and I knew it was a routine op and had very very positive vibes about it (no comfort to him at the time or now, but his dad recovered v,v,v quickly with no complications at all.)

I have been very honest with J about my feelings at tea time. I don't want to let myself go - I'm keeping busy so I don't have to stop and think. Mum has said she won't have anymore chemo and at the mo, I don't blame her - i can't see them being able to reassure sufficiently that she won't be like this again. I had to get out tonight everything is so raw - i went to band for an hour, we have a mutual lady friend there who I knew would just make me feel much more ralxed. I called 3x whilst I was out to say to J that I was sorry that I just couldn't face being vulnerable at the mo and that is why I in effect ran away.

He has been doing a real good job of hiding his emotion form me and what actually he has been up to - my anuty has told me all of what a star he has been. He has been to angry to talk to me without me feeling the need to run.

hings are calmer now, I 'm sure we will have a big hug before bed and make a time to talk about all of this.

I'm sure we will now get back into conversation and then try and work out what we need to work out tomorrow.

I am wrecked - went to bed real late cos of the worry and then DS was up for over an hour with post imm fever. Never mind everyting else.



Thank you so much L4 for going back and digging up that old post. When I come off the ceiling I wll work out a way of trying to be vulnerable before I actually feel vulnerable so that I don't get to the point where I shut down totally.

J is back to work tomorrow - we have no chce now of getting our 15ua in, he might come home after an important meeting he has - I hope so.

This is good actually -I do want him here, if this had happened before i started undoing demonisation i wouldn't have wanted him near me for a few days. He was very intolerant of the kids tonight again, yelled at dd cos she knocked her spagheti hoops on the floor - she cried and before I possibly wouldn't have wanted to be near him ever again ater his AO.

I need to do all I can to try and make sure he doesn't slip into depresion again.


I'm not just giving - I went to band, I'm just not showing my emotion either - too scared, what if i can't stop. I just don't know whether j can cope. I'll go back and read that post i made to roogirl again.

Thank you so much for being here, SC, sere, L4 and he others - I honestly don't know how I would have got through today and been able to think even a little bit straight without your pointers and support.

Just went up to J to give him a hug before we went to bed. I said whilst hugged "I just can't let me go yet". Which then started his DJing about what do I mean, why do i talk in riddles. Why couldn't he just say "I know, you know I'm here for you when you need me"

He jsut couldn't undersatnd at all what I meant despite the fact that prob 3 or 4 times this evening I have told him that I'm finding it hard to be vulnerable. Why doesn't he understand me? Why doesn't he try?

He's just calling me names again now. He wants to be by himself - he means long term.

(35minslater)

he wanted to talk so I went and sat down with him (against my better judgement) - I think I was jsut sat in a wind tunnel.started off chatty about tomorrow but the quickly went into name calling - how crap i handle everything how selfish i am etcetc. When i tried to say something he got up held his hands up and turned around. When I pointed out that that made it difficult to tell him how I feel he jeered " go on be brave little girl".

He's gone to bed now, making threats about what will happen if I wake him up.

I can't believe my sis told me about fom and j wishes i hadn't told him, because he is now blaming all his anger on him.

ST,

Did you really think that your statement was clear? I had no idea what it meant until you explained it. At first I thought it was a selfish reference to wanting the OM. Of course, I'm not emotionally attached so it was easy for me to read your explanation.

He clearly is not handling the situation well but I'm guessing he is angry about the FOM situation.

Hi ST,

is there something about this situation or how you are handling this situation that is triggering J?

I am a little puzzled that you chose to go to band and get support from a friend there. You must have been able to be vulnerable to that friend in order to gain some support. Why is it so difficult to open up to J?

Does J have a fear that you will run from him and possibly to someone else when you are needy? Does he think that this is what happened when you had your A?

This situation sounds serious and I'm worried for you. In this crisis, it is an opportunity for you both to pull together, be there for each other and support each other. I know that you hearing from sis about the FOM and J knowing that sis talked to him will have upset him greatly, but there seems to be more going on here than that.

You need to wave a white flag so that you two can have some RH about what is going on here.

ST.

That statement is a little ambiguous, especially when he is so obviously triggering about something. To me, you are saying to him that you are deliberately holding something back from him.

If my FWH said something like this to me, I would be devastated. Truly. My imagination would race about all the things potentially being held back and if he had felt able to "let go" with the OW? I would wonder what on earth was wrong with me that made my H feel unable to be his true self with me. I would question the whole relationship. It would put real doubts into my mind at a time when I needed to feel certain about my H's feelings.

Also, when you mention what you would have liked him to say, you are doing so from a position of knowledge of the MB principles. He is not reading here (I think I'm right in saying that) so doesn't know how important it is to be supportive and say the right things even when you don't feel like saying the right things. I know we'd like to think that these things should come naturally, but when you're so emotional it is so difficult to put your S's needs first.

That was one of the things I found so useful at first from MB. The things I learned calmed me and I learned not to LB and about triggers and to take a breath. I don't know how BS's cope without MB strategies, and J is having to cope without MB, so I think you may need to give him a break.

I hope today is better for you ST, and I'm sorry if you think I'm being hard on you and making excuses for J. It is possible that I am giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt here, but as a BS myself, I can empathise a little more with how he may be thinking. KWIM.

Thinking of you today.

Well apparently it wasn't, but based on all the conversation we had had in the afternoon about me not being able to be emotional in fornt of him I thought that yes it should have been perfectly obvious.

I know he is very angry about the FOM thing in town and sis.

yes, the fact that I can't talk to him and I was able to with FOM.
I needed to get my head straight, I needed to try immerse myself in the music to try to give my brain a rest. Just to see her and know that she doesn't know mum so she doesn't have any emotion attached to mum and she was just there for me. It was just arelief to see her really.
Yes and yes

thank you sere

Because if I'm not happy he sinks - it's almost as if I usually kep him upp , if I'm down he falls. I needhim not to fall at the mo. Pretending is easier.

Or if I do - he gets v angry and tells me I'm pathetic and over reacting. I am not strong enough at the mo, to deal wqith a string of insults either .... as I suffered on both times I tried to demonstrate my feelings yesterday. I can't be bothered with it.

So I withdraw in that way. I can be civil and I can still show affection but sadly resentment builds up in me becasue I just want to feel relaxed tlaking to him and I am very nearly always disappointed when I do

ST,

I have not posted to you in a while but have been following along with your thread. Sorry to hear about your mom and all the additional stress lately.

What ever happened with your husband's possible bipolar? Is he getting treatment? Was he diagnosed with anything?

I was wondering the same thing.
It must be difficult feeling like you need to keep him up, even without this A business.

As far as the sitch with your mom, use your parents good friends to help out. Many times there are people who are more than willing to make a meal , do errands or even run your kids around if you are with your mom. People who have had family crises, completely understand and sincerely want to help out.
I know that when I've had to deal with family sickness, there were friends of my parents who felt helpless and didn't want to intrude but were more than willing to do something if they were asked. They felt good knowing that they were of some support. Just a thought.

I so agree with the fact that we think we can do it all and it's hard to ask for support, somehow we feel like we are a failure if we need help. BTDT too. :crosseyedcrazy:
We wear ourselves out, become impatient with people around us and unfocused with what's really important. We end up not being good for anybody.

Take care and I hope life gets better for you.

Thanks abm. He has been feferred to the psych team. I have heard through a friend that there is a 6-7month wait for an appointment!

Thanks V
You are quite right, they have many good friends and many htat have offered help. But I don't want her to think that I'm not there. And in a moment of debatable clarity yesterday she expressed that she didn't want people to know how sick she is.



I think this is where J is at he spent 6 hours moving 2 very large sheds and contens for preschool on sat and then worked 12hours plus 2 hours travel on sun and then into mon!!

I don't think i am there at the mo. I am still very calm and reassuring and fun around the children, when my patience goes with them that is when I need to slow down. I know I don't have patience with J at the mo but I want him to just get on with it woithout lots of introspection. Let's just do for now.

Life is easier to day mum has turned a corner and I can get on without worrying about where j's head is as I know it is at work mostly.

I'm trying to think about the weekend now. Mum should be ok then, we are going to Monkey World as a family of 4 + friend for DDs b'day and me and J are going to a party - the lady that plays in band with me who J used to play vball with.


I think avoiding relationship talk and emotional talk will work best til then, we can just concentrate on being calm and kind.

Thak you Sere and SC and 6YL for your BS input - I need to take on board that FOM business isn't insignificant for J at the moment.

Haven't you called yourself to find out or have J call to make an appointment? I know you have a lot going on, but I really think this would take a lot of stress off of you so it would be worth it. If he is diagnosed, the meds will definately help him and all of those around him.

I'm disappointed today. I find myself unable to be too near J again.

I can't take that amount of abuse.

I'm so sorry ST.

Fear seems to be driving the pair of you at the moment. His fear that he is not enough for you, that FOM was, and the A may be rekindled, and your fear that J is not enough for you. That if you lean on him as you need to, he will collapse.

You somehow need to find a way to break this cycle, and the only way, IMVHO is to have an O&H conversation. Things sound terrible and sound like they're getting worse. There's huge tension between the two of you and it really has to be addressed in one way or another.

I hope one of the vets can come along to give you some advice here because I don't think either of you can carry on much longer in such an unhealthy situation.

I'm just thinking aloud here and am probably way off base, but maybe your fear is not that he will collapse if you lean on him, but that he won't and he still won't be enough for you.

I'll be thinking of you both ST and I really hope this can be worked out for the two of you.

Email to J, just now

Hi J
I’m really struggling with all the yelling and the way you let the criticisms and abuse fly, interrupt me you didn’t give me a chance to talk. I’m not sure how to get close to you again, it seems to go against my instinct.

I am however relieved at the way you were so angry at me not being there when your dad was having his op and I am sorry. I am pleased that you were able to demonstrate some real anger about the A.

Thank you for being such a support to mum and dad.

What happens next how do you think we should get back on track?


ST

J will be home soon.

He wants to talk. I'm exhausted. Where will this conversation go tonight?

I agree. The A will not be rekindled - I'm fighting that 100%.

I agree too, we are both scared and I think yes he is scared of my abuse and me of his.
It's just one of those down ward turns, thing is there is too much going on.
I am ever grateful to my posters but would love fresh eyes or a lurker to give their summary view of things.
I hope that isn't my fear, i'm not sure what I can do about that.
thank you

Well, the conversation was ok. We certainly don't dislike each other more from it. We are talking more calmly to each other.

J keeps wanting to give up and say this just isn't right. I'm trying to persuade him it is just part of the rollercoaster. We just ride it out with out over analysing and as soon as we're ready try to be nice to each other again. Let's just try to make it through to the weekend.

He hates th fact that I find it hard to get near him. Complained baout the kiss i gave him when he came in, but I was chuffed that I had kissed him.

He is absolutely adamant that he has no fear I will get in touch with OM because if I do it won't make any difference tohim anymore ie he'll go. I didn't think that really said whether he feared it or nat so tried to get clarification but he is certain that I won't. I told him that some days I have to fight it. But that I do fight it for my own integrity and not because he threatens to leave if I do and that's how I know I won't do it. (saying things like that to me seem like a bit of a challenge, but I'll resist the temptation to see if he's true to his word.)

Bed.

What does he fear if its not that you'll got back to FOM?

he fears seeing the children only on visits

I know of M's that had less to start with.

I'll have a look for an article that really struck home to me when I was considering whether or not to pursue Plan A, and post it

Can't find the author/s so cant credit them sorry. Anyway, i decided there was alot to keep me trying. There antoher thing about people being survyed 6 years after thinking they might seperate. The ones that stayed were alot happier than they had expected to be, and were massivley happier than the ones who D'ed

Thanks lil

I have no intention of going there, much as I'm not to keen on where i am at the moment. I have seen some research siimilar to this before which commented that those that stayed together were not only happier than those that divorced and than they expected to be but were also "happy" ie happier than when the trial started.

I wonder whether there is anything else I need to change about my core values and beliefs that would make it easier.


While circumstances — such as physical abuse — may make divorce a necessary evil, it is still a tragedy, and like any other misfortune, divorce causes pain.
This is the second time in the last few days that I have seen anything to suggest that it might be ok to continue with an M after physical abuse, the other being yesterday when someone mentioned abuse and then a few sentences later commented that peole can change - I brought the 2 sentences together for my own situation, not sure if it was intended to maean that people can become non-abusive but I hope it was.

I have never heard of people turning themselves around after DV as a couple. I'd really like to know if there is anone out there.

I drifted away a bit there didn't I? Well, this is where my train of thought is again.

You have mail

Ok, just been getting my helpful hints from L4s thread. Mark made a very useful post. I


This is the hard bit. If one party is very resentful and doesn't understand POJA and find it so hard to see that they are using DJ and AO and the other member of the party tries to call a halt but the other person doesn't allow it. How do you move on? Maybe lead by example on an issue that isn't quite so distressing and teach the method through doing it, so that once it is well rehearsed on less important topics it can be used on other ones?

And what if the resentful member of the party really can't work out why they have so much anger built up?


The Seven Emotional Trials the Cheater Will Face [/quote]

Do I need to read in to not feeling one fo these emotions I wonder?

I'm post stealing today...

Is this a boy/girl thing? This happens in our house aaaallllll the time. This is one of the things that drives me absolutely crazy. Why does it happen?

The original issue gets sorted but I do stay mad that he has made it about him yet again and that I can't have a bit.

Post stealing.

This use to happen around here too, not with just H but with the teens as well.
One DJ and bam, someone got defensive, and it turned into a ping pong game where nothing got resolved, and everyone was mad. Both H and I are better now since MB with recognizing DJ's with each other. H is actually better than me! The kids, well that's a work in progress. :crosseyedcrazy: With practice of POJA and RH, it's easier to avoid DJ's, stuff doesn't get buried. We empty our garbage truck before it gets too full, IYWIM.

It has always happened with my husband. It has kept me from telling him negative things over the years. I used to think that negative feedback just made him mad. I never could understand it. I am trying to be more honest with him and last night was the first night that I realized that he always has to take the issue from me and make it his own. When I mentioned this to him. I told him: "This isn't about you. You are no longer doing anything wrong. This is my baggage. I just need your help carrying it sometimes when it gets too heavy". He hugged me. He got quiet. He got calmer. I wonder if I got through to him finally.

ST,

Thread thief!

Hi Mark,

Are you able to give any input into any of my thoughts on the posts I've stolen?

pleeeaaaaase?

ST,

I haven't been ignoring you. I will try to get here later to comment if you would like, But I need to read each post and think before posting. If I don't think first, we'll both be in trouble.

Mark

Why read and think, Mark? It's apparently not mandatory around the boards.

ST... Steal all you want. Know that I'll invoice you at the end of the month.

Looking forward to the coming wisdom.

Yep. Though I have to change your "always" to "often" in my case.

Often enough so that I didn't want to make him mad, even though they were my feelings so I didn't understand why he thought he had a right to be angry or sarcastic or belittling -- which is what would happen most of the time. I got to where I didn't share for fear of his response. That brought about self-doubt, resentment, coldness... All ugly things that turned me further and further away from H.

So what has changed? (inside of YOU) What boundaries do you now have that you did not? How do you enforce them now where enforcement was lacking before?

You see part of the trouble you are having in dealing with the verbal tirades from J are the result of boundaries being overstepped and not really knowing how to protect them. If he were to attack you physically, how would you respond? Can you disengage from a volatile conversation without love busting yourself or without simply withdrawing from the relationship? This is really hard stuff, but having a clear boundary is key to almost every single interaction we have with another person.

The thing is that boundaries can only be set by us to define ourselves. We can't define what others will do, only what we will do in response. A boundary to protect our heart, to keep us from cheating, can't be a wall that stops us from all interaction with others. It needs to be a hedge, a marker, a line that is clearly identifiable to us and to those we interact with. It says that inside is my marriage and outside is not. Stepping over the boundary even briefly exposes us to great emotional trauma because when we stray outside of those boundaries that define our relationships, we open ourselves to letting things in that don't belong within that relationship.

In a marriage it is possible to have friends of both sexes. But when we allow someone to enter into the domain of what belongs to the marriage, we give them access to what does not belong to that relationship, but only to the marital relationship.

And within marriage, a boundary cannot define what our spouse will or will not do. I can only define us, our person, our self.


Of course it's a challenge. It's a challenge and a test. It is also a statement of his own boundary. He will not share you with OM or any OM. If you share your heart with OM, J will leave. Clear boundary and clear enforcement of it. (I wouldn't test it if I were you)

So who has more resentment built up right now, J because of the affair or you because you have allowed your boundaries to be obliterated and just stashed the resentment in your heart?

Now THIS is an observation of note. Most guys are fixers and doers. We like to make things right, to change the world rather than let it crumble around our ears. When a woman shares feelings, we see a problem that needs fixing. We analyze it, try to define it and then give advice as to how to fix it.

Of course you women don't want us to fix it. While we seek a solution, you seek validation. You don't need us to fix you, just cry with you, but that isn't how us men usually work.

And as for making the problem our own, when we love someone, have a commitment to care for them and protect them, anything that causes that person harm IS our problem. And that might be part of what is making conversation so difficult.

Men are hunters. Women are gatherers. Send a man to the store for a loaf of bread, what does he come home with? A loaf of bread. (And maybe a magazine or or a 6 pack of beer or a new bass boat, but you have no idea what his reason for going to the store might be, the loaf of bread is what YOU were looking for. He can identify that target and kill it quickly and have plenty of time left for what HE has been looking for.)

A woman doesn't even go to the store for a loaf of bread. She either sends her husband or goes to the store to see what they have, what is on sale or what looks good. (which is why women should never go shopping for groceries while hungry or dieting)

Men identify the prey, track it down, stalk it, kill it and bring it home. Women wander about trying to see what fits with whatever the man is stalking today. They use what is in season, what is available rather than a specific item. (Substitution is possible for almost anything)

Men seek answers. Women seek consensus.

OK. Too many topics in one thread. Too close to getting off work (finally) for the day and a wife I haven't seen since almost 13 hours ago waiting for me at home. (It'll be 14 hours by the time I get home.)

Mark

I love this analogy, I can even relate to it.

wow, a lot happened here while i was asleep.

Thank you Mark

I'll BBL

I really noticed yesterday afternoon when a friend was talking about a girly night out and they started talking to some chaps. It made me feel quite strange, I was horrified and started to educate her on the perils of talking to men on a drunken night out. I knew I'd come quite a way. But I honestly was horrified and shocked that I genuinely was horrified. So something inside me has quite drastically changed. I am aware that I do not even want to go out drinking without J.
At other times: I don't allow myself to get into anything more than polite conversation ie small talk with another man unless in company with J.

This is incredibly hard. I hope that if he was ever physical again I would leave. I must. Disengaging from a volatile conversation is very hard - I am able to say calmly that I would like to come back another time, but he doesn't stop and gets more angry. If I then walk away he gets exceptionally mad and I go back because I'm worried of what he'll do if i don't. If I sit and take it, usually about 2 days later I can't stand him.
mmmm, so we have one boundary that I find hard to set, the ones that led me to become to friendly with OM I have in check. The other boundary is how much of my life I spend on other people and helping them - knowing when to say no.

This is where I struggle with family, I can not choose J over my family and these are the boundaires that could also do with tidying up a bit, a few new plants to fill in the gaps.
Yep, I think maybe I could think a lot harder about this. I am very open ( had you guessed) and although I don't go into relationship talk with gents anymore, I can freely talk about how I feel about anything with anyone.
I agree and understand.


I think I have more resentment, because I allowed my boundaries to be obliterated but I'm not talking so much about my A.


SO what on earth can we do about this? because it drives me abso -flippin - lutely (to quote a friend)mad

Thank you very much Mark for spending your time here. I hope you had a nice evening with your wife.

Hi ST!
I'm glad your weekend is going well so far.(read on another thread)
And yes, we had a good time last night, thanks.

It's nice to have good times, helps to keep us going.

Why were you horrified that you wanted to educate them on this stuff? This seems like a good thing to me.

Sounds like your developing some excelent personal boundries.

When I first started at MB I told a few friends about what I was learning here and although they tolerated my rambles, they really just seemed to be nodding and agreeing with me. Last week a friend came over and told me that her H and her had just admitted to each other they were attracted other people. She asked me to tell her more about MB add EN's. She took HNHN and said they were going to read it. The interesting comment she made to me was "Now I understand why you keep going on about how easy affairs are to get sucked into"

Don't think of it as 'educating' think of it as preventative medicine.

Maybe amazed would be a better choice of word. I was almost dumbstruck by my change. I was aware that I had made changes - but I wasn't aware that it really had become part of me and who I am

That comment struck me as strange. Does that mean you choose you family over J? If so I think that is a problem and there is no way he will not realize that he is second, or third or fourth in your priorities. I'm pretty sure the M relationship is supposed to be first.

mmmm, I know 6yl.

This is why I struggle with it. I think actually what I mean is that J doesn't always come first but it is based on need.

For example today: We had a mess up of plans (sis was having our 2 for the day, we forgot to leave them the car seats and the car was at mum and dads).We were both going to see mum and dad when we picked up the car but because I then had to go and get car seats, I went earlier than plaaned so that the kids could go out. J decided not to come and stay in bed.

I was goingt to stay 30 mins and then come home and do some gardening and fix up DDs b'day present with J. Unfortunately I'd been there about 20mins when mum turned to dad and said "Why don't you pop to the shops now while ST's here".

I phoned J to let him know and he was absolutely fine with this. However, another day he might have not been in agreement. If he had not been in agreement I wouldn't have taken any notice and I would have stayed anyway.

So, in this case he did come 2nd and would always come 2nd. Is this really unreasonable when mum and dad need so much support at the moment?

Is it really possible to always put your spouse first? I hope that we would have POJAd if there was an issue. We need to find some time to work on POJA in theory. It isn't something that we've really worked on yet.

And the fact that you are aware of this is what should help you to keep these new boundaries intact, so this is great.
I've too learned about my own boundaries, although I didn't have an A, I trusted myself too much and never really gave a thought to how it affected my H.

Hey ST,

I bumped a thread on boundries for you in QG2, its called 'Mulan on Boundries"

Thanks Lil, very helpful.

I'll get J to look at it too.

I love that J is participating in bits and pieces, in what you're doing here, ST. I think that's awesome.

I had a similar experience, ST. A couple months after D-day I went sans H (he decided at the last minute he wasn't feeling well) to watch a friend's husband's band play at a pretty low-key bar. (H and I promised we would accompany her there.) I met her and a few of the other spouses of the band there. There was a man friend of theirs whom I had met several years before who was there, who seemed to go out of his way to talk to me. I found myself a bit uncomfortable and kept mentioning "my husband" since this man had met H before.

I kept checking my brain to make sure I wasn't sending any inappropriate body signals. I danced with a group of women and had one beer. Finally at one point he asked me to dance and I said no thank you. I didn't feel unsafe and was not at all attracted to him so my boundaries weren't necessarily tested. (I remember him as being quite a jerk.) But I was highly tuned-in to what he was up to, what was going on, and I didn't want to deal with it. I realized I didn't have to so I said my good-byes and left. I was there all of 30 minutes.

Good on you for paying attention.

Hi st,

I promised you an email days ago and I'm sorry that I have not sent one. I keep getting only a few minutes to do personal stuff from work, and my hotmail account has not let me in for long enough to write.

This thread is thriving now, and I'm glad to read all the good advice you are getting. I'm trying to take some of it myself!

I'll write later in the week.

Link for J boundaries -Mulan

I was thinking of you today SugarCane, hope you are ok.

ST

I am very okay thank, st. However, what about you? I just read L4's thread and saw this:

2263315 - Today at 04:10 AM Re: Hubby now cares. Should I tell of the A? [Re: lildoggie]
staytogether
Member

What was going on with you at 4.10 AM?

HI Sugar cane. I was definitely not up at 4am and things are ticking along I think is the best way to describe it. I have put emotion on hold at the moment am looking at life as an outsider til the pressure is off a bit. Unfortunately no time to post really at the mo, but I have noticed that the clocks are skewed I think I need to go in and reset the time diff on my account - I guess you may need to too

hmm, are you describing a time bomb or a slow but steady pace?

The clock is whacked here too. I'm not sure how to fix it.

Hey ST,

you have a huge amount of rehash to get us all up to date again.

Hope you didnt ahve big plans
J/K, J and the kids come first

Loving you, ST.

Oh boy!

Well - i reckon there's an awful lot gone that is definitely best gone.

We get a bit of a fresh start I reckon, and beautifully timed as well. I am gutted that I have lost the last 5 months of journalling.

So, today we go away to the coast for a short break (on the house insurance - they're still not ready for us to move back in).

On our return we will all move back in together.

J attended am emotional coping skills course - one of the exercises they did was to rephrase some sentences positively and he has been able to make use of this and is doing it. Which is ENORMOUS for me. I feel able to make suggestions and talk to him.

I haven't seen a flicker of anger since last time we were away - a month ago but I know he has been in situations that would usually have triggered him.

When we move home next week - it will be to a "new house" and a proper fresh start. We have agreed that we will spend our time making it feel like new. We're lucky that we are having people to redecorate our hall and bathroom under the insurance (�20 000 me and one of the flooring guys estimated the final cost at).

I'm applying for a new job (preschool music teacher) which will involve travelling - when I mentioned the job to J he offered solutions to getting round our transport issues and made offers to ask his boss to ask for flexible working (to fit his train times) - he is entitled (if he can show that it won't impact the company) to ask as we have G under 6.

Kids have coped really well all though obviously stressed and have been v poorly over the last 10 days. G is really looking forward to moving home!


It is a beautiful morning here and I have a fantastic view out of the hotel window:

The Cathedral spire, striking against the vivd blue sky, surrounded by autumnal orange and yellow trees only reaching the base of the tower and in the foreground the river with at least 10 swans that I can see, and jacobs sheep grazing in the water meadow.

Look at me - I'm all relaxed now and I have to check out of this hotel in less than an hour - not packed up yet.


Lil, I like your new sig line very muchly.

Hope you guys have a weekend as great as the one we're going to have!

Actually that has gone some way to restore the bit of my thread that I will most miss, which was the bit where I sat outside the church that I was Christened at that evening when my world was falling apart back in August.

So, so, much gone. All those analogies all those kicks up the whatsit. But I remember so many of those wonderful words and experiences that you guys shared with me and gave to me - they are ingrained.

Oh and ds had a b'day too whilst you've all been gone! sig change.

Hi ST,
You sound very good, almost calm-like, ...... I'm so happy for you.
Good thing on the job, it sounds like it's right up your alley, with the music
and little kids.
Take care you!

ST I love your new sigline too.

You sound at peace and happy, I am so pleased for you.

Prayers for the coming weeek for settled times ahead.

Hi V,

How have you been? I've got lots of catching up with other people to do, that's for sure.


Just a quickie - J and the kids are in the pool (I'm at the side - it was my job to finish packing while they came for a swim).

We have had a great weekend - we have been so lucky with the weather again - on the beach in a tshirt at the end of october!

I have been wanting to hold J and he feels good, I am actually excited about him moving home. I don't think I could have imagined being excited about him moving back.

DD seems a lot more chilled with him (not quite holding his hand though).


THanks for those prayers lil, we so need them. Please. We can do this.

This is so nice to read, ST. Holding and being held by someone you love rocks. Doesn't it.

I hope things continue on this upswing. Enjoy your time away.

Mwah!

So glad for you ST.

Congrats

Hope to hear an update soon about how things are progressing

Ivetz

I think all good progress should be marked just to remind ourselves of where we've come from.

Yesterday we achieved loads and it was much like the ST and J of very old.

We narrowed down paint choices to one for the bathroom and 4 for the hall.

We unpacked

We sorted and went through Js wardrobe (not the clothes bit) the xmas cards and paper and b'day wrap and soft furnishings and junk bit and cleared out. And boxed up the stuff I had cleared from the kids rooms last week.

He went through his underwear drawer.

I took the kids to get their halloween costumes (punk witch and pirate skeleton)

J got the light fixed on the car

Cleaned all the dust form the kitchen

Unpacked 6 large boxes of books and CDs and DVDs and bit and pieces and put them back on their shelves ( and sifted for stuff to go)

Hung 3 pairs of curtains.

Set up TV, DVD, Stereo and speakers and Wii

Whilst tripping over the man still finishing the floor

and despite the removal men initially forgetting half our stuff and not delivering the second half til 5pm.

All that and no cross words at all!

Can anyone please answer this?

I'm feeling really cheerful and obviously really positive - have been trying to speak to J today and have sent text message.

I talk to him just now and he is total monotone and speaking in slow motion. I am now really really irritated. No sign of any interest in me from his tone.

How can I stop things like this driving me mad ? I'm now dreading seeing him, where as until I spoke to him I was really looking forward to it.

Need to get somewhere so that I do look forward to seeing him tonight

Hello ST!!!!
I've been kinda consumed with trying to put out some fires in the my real world here,
so I'm getting very far behind with my MB stuff. (nothing in my own M btw, it's good)

I am short on time but I my first impression of how you get somewhere to looking forward to seeing J tonight is ..... don't read more into his tone than there is.
Wait until tonight and ask him if anything was bothering him when you spoke on the phone.
There may be a reasonable explaination, ... or not.
We can so easily get ourselves wound up tighter than a plugged bailor!
This in turn will get our defenses up and you know where that leads!

Love ya and miss ya!

Thanks V,

I hope your fires get extinguished quick and pleased your M is good.

I'm trying to ignore his tone and have emailed a suggestion for something fun to do tonight:

Wait for it... It's really exciting!



Well, it was something he mentioned doing yesterday anyway.

So he emailed back that he was going to suggest the very same fun activity for our evening.

Forgot to mention we had SF for the first time in over 2 months the other day - that's how much closer I've been feeling. It was much enjoyed (and needed).

First, what the heck is an airing cupboard??
Doesn't sound like fun to me, more like a chore.

Second, the SF .....

ST,

I am sometimes short with my wife when she calls me while I am at work. Other times I will call her to chat and she is short with me. In either case is not it a matter of being angry, withdrawn or any other reason related to our marriage, simply that one or the other is busy at that exact moment of the day.

I work in a more or less retail environment. If a customer is standing in front of me, I can't even take the time to answer the phone. In fact, I have had to stop three times while I have been typing this to talk on the phone, answer a question for somebody and wait on a customer.

I also have the occasional crappy day that has nothing to do with my wife beyond her being the beneficiary of my foul mood.

I can also tell you that the biggest threat to romance is probably unmet expectations. I expect a certain chain of events or actions to unfold or I call my wife expecting to share with her the excitement over my finalizing some plans for the weekend, only to discover that she has her own agenda and itinerary for the same time frame.

Mark

Yup, real exciting.

V, I call it a boiler cuboard, you might call it the hotwater cuboard. Its the cuboard where the hot water cylinder lives and people store their linen.

Hey, ST loved this bit GMTA

AND SF

Dont worry too much about the monotone. Like Mark says we are not always on the same up/down cycle as our spouses. Tommorrow will be a better day!

Hmmm... We have a hot water heater and it's bolted onto the wall in our laundry room. Same thing?

(This thread is so internationally educational.)

ST, I agree with Mark and Lil. Don't project if you can help it. (Yes, I know coming from me that's like the pot calling the kettle black.) Especially contact at work. Anything can be happening there at any time. Just last week my H was IM-ing me something important to him when my boss walked in and asked me to join her right then to act as a witness while she fired someone. Needless to say, I had to cut it off immediately with H (sorry, Honey!) and the IM changed rather abruptly.

Any word on the pre-school job?

helllloooo

We had a fun evening tidying the airing cupboard - traditionally as lil says where the hot water cylinder is except when we had our boiler replaced we had a combi one so no longer have water cylinder but kept the idea and the cupboard is about 5'x 3' deep and we had a little radiator put in it to keep our towles ane bedlinen aired.

Linen and our 2 drawer filing cabinet in one side and boiler, airing cupboard and hoover in the other side.

Anyway we now have spares and guest linen on the top shelf our bed and towels on second shelf and kids beds and towels on the bottom shelf and cleared out one black sack full for the monkey sanctuary. (J insisted on keeping the kids towels from when they were babies and a couple of old ones in case we ever get a dog).


A very exciting evening!!!!

we have wii bowling comp. planned for this evening.

(Oh and just between you and me I have an interview for that job next thurs, they've given me a CD and I have to prepare a class for the interview and give it)

ETA: Do you guys mind my very short hand typing - written as spoken with little attention to full sentences or punctuation?

How long till they ask what a hoover is ST?

Hey ST, missed you.............

was waiting to find time to write a really long post to you but time has just run away with me today so I'm just popping in to say hello and let you know how happy I am that you and J will be moving back to the "new" house together.

That is wonderful news and I'm thrilled for you.

Sometimes I just don't understand what you foreign folk are talking about.

Glad you are enjoying such "exciting" times, ST. You must be so thrilled to be back in your home. And to have that (shhh) interview on Thursday. Yay! I'll be sending the good ju-ju your way that day.

Mwah!

Silly ferners...

Hard to believe they call it the same language.

To be honest Mark, reading back over that quote - it doesn't really read like the Queen's english at all.

I would like to let you all know that I am actually quite literate. I was going to promise to make sure my posts were carefully written but I'm usually in such a hurray, it wouldn't be long before I broke the promise - I think you all understand me most of the time... don't you?

As for the 2 of us...

Well, we've done a week together now - well over a week if you count our w/e away, but a week in normality.

So far, so good. We had a good day out yesterday - I had to give him the opportunity a couple of times to speak his mind - ie "J, you don't agree do you, tell me what you actually think"

And then when we got back here at 6.30 with the house a bit of a mess and kids to go to bed he started looking for decking cleaning hints on the internet, so I asked him if he could help me get on and whether we should agree that noone goes on the internet between 5 and 7 and POJAd come other computer rules.

The guys are coming to decorating today, so I asked him if he could please take the pictures down - he said "why can't you do it?" I said "because I can't put full pressure on my finger to grip" so he demonstrated how I could do it without pressure - I pointed out that his hands were bigger than dinner plates and that me trying it like that might not have the same effect.

Later I commented that if he makes it difficult for me to ask for help then I am likely to stop and do everything by myself. He understood.

Thanks for dropping by L4 and Sere

ST,

Be careful as you attempt to use POJA that you aren't just seeking agreement through compromise. Each getting half of what you would like does NOT fulfill POJA and eventually leads to resentment in BOTH of you since NEITHER of you is getting what you would like and what would make you happy.

POJA begins with two view points usually in direct opposition to each other. But POJA is not demonstrated by each giving a little ground and ending up with what might be called SHARING. POJA is finding the answer that makes you both happy and not just an agreement to end the conflict.

Sharing, compromise and lobbying are all methods used by those who wish to manipulate those they are negotiating with. These things along with the sales person's tool, the short close, leads to an agreement (I demonstrate some small point, gain your agreement that it meets some requirement or need of yours, often simply by getting you to nod your head while I continue my sales pitch, but have already made it almost impossible for you to say "No" since you have to have that one thing I showed you early on)) from a person who after the fact looks back and asks themselves just what the he77 they were thinking.

Negotiating to compromise eventually leads not only to resentment but to failing to negotiate in good faith. If the answer always lies half way between what I want and what you want, then it becomes a simple matter of upping the ante. If I begin far enough to my side of the equation, I end up closer to what I want after we meet in the middle. This actually causes both of us to escalate our beginning negotiating point, causing us to be even farther apart to start, and as compromises are tested to begin making selfish demands and DJs in order to stall/slow down the rush so that we might fine tune our position in order to achieve my original goal without giving away too much.

The other thing couples will do thinking that it fulfills POJA is to swap letting each other win; you get your way now and I get mine later. This leads to broken promises and score keeping to determine who is ahead and who is winning. One or the other will always feel cheated since not watching the championship game in order to watch an old movie while cuddling on the sofa will seldom feel like it is balanced out by having meatloaf for dinner instead of fish.

Most of us have learned from early in life to share with others. When there was only one apple, Mom made us cut it in half and each of us got an equal portion. This was reinforced in us by our school teachers and such until it became almost an instinct that we used to overrule our Taker. Sharing became a way of life. It was seen as the goal.

The problem with sharing equally is that it seldom makes for two happy people, more often leads to two unhappy people and in the end does not make Love Bank deposits effectively. It might be fair. It might be equitable. It might be the morally and ethically "RIGHT thing to do, but it is not something that builds up the love you feel for each other.

Let's say you want to see the big game and I know this. If I want to make you happy, I just tell you to go ahead, put your feet up and enjoy...

But if I want to watch an old movie, I already will not be happy if I just let you watch the game. Now a compromise situation might be that you get to watch the game until Halftime and then we'll watch the movie. I might suggest this knowing that the first half is going to be almost over by the beginning of the movie and so I won't miss very much of it. Of course the game will be over before the movie is over and so you'll just have to wait to find out who won from the news at 10:30 that night, along with all of those who got to see NONE of the game at all.

Now if I wanted to punish you for not giving me what I wanted in our last negotiation, this might give me that opportunity since causing you to miss the end of the game, when the winner and loser are being determined would give me some satisfaction at having gotten over on you.

Now two televisions in the house might solve the immediate problem but you have to be very careful that it doesn't lead to IB and result in both of you living independent lives only marginally connected to each other.

What happens with practice is that you begin to realize that you don't have to pump up your opening demands or stall to try to gain a win by attrition or any of those other things we often do when we know that compromise and sharing is in the works. We see the conflict as my way or your way when in reality, there are any number of solutions that might be acceptable, in fact be met with enthusiasm, if we can just find them.

POJA negotiations NEVER seek to sway our spouse by manipulation, education or explanation. IF we are spending time explaining our POV time and again, we simply aren't looking for what is best for both of us but still lobbying for what we wanted all along. It doesn't matter one bit to POJA negotiations WHY you want something or what makes it better than some other thing you have set up in opposition in order to make your point. It doesn't mean getting your way exactly some of the time, giving him his way some of the time and sharing the rest of the time.

POJA is so important because when an agreement is reached it deposits into BOTH Love Banks. No one pays for the other person's happiness with the decision since you are BOTH happy. It can't be POJA until that condition is met. It has to make you both happy and not just equally unhappy for it to be POJA since you will seldom, as in pretty much never, agree to something enthusiastically that makes you unhappy.

Unless of course you plan on using it as a bargaining chip in a later negotiation. In this case I let you watch the game, the semi finals so that next week, we can watch the movie that I really want to see even more than the one that is on today. Of course since today is the semi final match, that makes next week the final game in the championship season and that game is even more important than the one today, but fair is fair and equal time is equal time and I let you have your way now so next week there is no room to negotiate since now it's MY TURN...

That is why sharing, equal time and compromise do not fulfill POJA. POJA is only met when BOTH of you win. If you both lose, even a little or if one of you loses only a little, then it can't really be POJA.

BTW, POJA can't happen on big stuff from the very beginning. It requires a lot of practice to be able to let go of the you vs. me position and view of negotiating to start looking for the solution neither of us considered that turns YOU and ME into US.

Mark

Yep, I see exactly what you are getting at Mark. I didn't have to try and I think looking back J agreed wiyh my POV - he wanted to check something online , so that he could buy the right thing form the shop and get back quicker to spend the evening with me.

I know it really bugs him when I'm on the computer at this time - so it seems the obvious solution.

I will need to watch my POJA very carefully - it is really hard - I am very good at manipulating things to get my way and he struggles to say what he means and wants. Where we are at th moment I am working hard to help him to get it out.

I hope he can feel safe enough to do it for himself before I get annoyed with him not saying what he means.

It makes these discussions hard work when I am trying to get across my POV and help him verbalise his.

And that in itself seems wrong...

I just asked him what he needs to feel safe(cos I guess that is what I have to do) to give his POV - and he said for me not to disagree - can anyone else see the problem with the fact that I'm not allowed to disagree with him? And used that point as the point because I disagreed that to make him feel safe in coversation I have to agree with him (are you still following?)

Does he want to be listened to or not? Does he want a discussion resulting in double enthusiastic agreement or for one of us to be autonomous?

I picture you jumping out of your chair with such excitement, yelling "Hurray!" as you carefully write.

My H wants me to agree with him too. Your conversation with J is similar to some I've had with my H.

What can be the solution in the above example where both want to watch different things at the same time? This is where I get stumped.

My H and I are not practicing POJA so perhaps this is too advanced for me, but it's something I wonder about. When it's a time-sensitive matter -- cannot be done at another time -- and it conflicts directly with the desires of the other person, what can be done?

OK, these are my thoughts on what this may be about because BB and I have similar issues. I'm going to re-write what you have said with a minor alteration and see where that gets us..


Do you think this may be what J means?

I'll tell you where BB and I are at and see if it resonates. BB has loads of wonderful qualities that I do not possess. We make a good team because I have qualities that he maybe doesn't possess. He is a clever man but educationally it would be said that I am cleverer. We were educated to different standards and sometimes this shows through. I am a voracious reader and have been politically active. He hardly ever read and has no interest in politics. (He reads more now because he is trying to meet my EN for conversation about things I am interested in)

I'm embarrassed to say that at times he has given me his opinion on something and I have rolled my eyes or dismissed him in some way because to me his opinion has been ill conceived or plain wrong. I didn't even realise I did it and I'm not saying that you are consciously disrespecting him, but is it possible that this is how he feels? There's only so many times that a person can have his opinions dismissed before they stop giving them and withdraw or become angry at the constant dismissals.

BB and I spoke quite a lot about this in the early days of our recovery because it was a big issue for us and I am working hard to show him respect when he shares with me, even when I think he is wrong. The great thing is that the more I actually listen to him and hear what he has to say, the more I value what he brings to the table, so we're managing to turn this issue around. I'll need to ask BB if he thinks things have improved as dramatically as I think they have, but I know that he appreciates the efforts I have made and I know that he shares more of his thoughts and opinions with me now because he feels safer to do so without feeling belittled.

Food for thought ST maybe?

I'm not sure on this one, we had something where neither of us wanted to watch what the other wanted to, so we chose something on a different channel - but that's not quite the same.

I don't know - if neither of you get what you want it's sort of fair, but there is still resentment.

Looks like Sere has some good thoughts for me, but those immediate things - i just don't know

Exactly what he means!

This would be me of old and I think he still expects me to do this - but I'm not - I'm really working hard to get him to say what he thinks.


I am very conscious of listening - and try to make sure I repeat what he is saying - both as a reminder to me to listen carefully and to let him know that I am. It is very hard to control facial expressions though - isn't it? But at the end of the day, I am listening and I am taking on board - I just disagree sometimes.

OK, I'll try harder (my face is just such a giveaway though - really hard to control) - I don't ignore his thoughts I just disagree.

I know it wasn't so long ago that I was complaining that if ever I go to him with an idea he finds endless problems and reasons why not. He is still trying to think of things positively, that is for sure.

But I just want him to say how he feels.

More gentle encouragement and patience

Thanks Sere

This can be the exact solution. But the solution also might be turn the thing off and take a walk together or go to the kitchen and work together on fixing dinner. The key is to not pick one or the other just to end the fight over who gets to have their way but to find a solution that both of you can agree enthusiastically to with no reservations, no holding back and nothing based on equal time for the future.

Our Giver wants us to make other people happy, all the time, in any way we can even if it means that we will be unhappy ourselves. So many of us were brought up to believe that this is the way we should live our own life in every instance for every situation for our entire life. It means we are not being selfish so it has powerful draw who were raised within a framework where unselfishness was stressed and where wanting to have something without sharing was labeled as being selfish.

Our Taker wants us to be happy even if it means that nobody else will be happy and nobody else will benefit from our happiness. Our Taker wants us to take care of ourselves first, foremost and above all else. It is a purely selfish position and really doesn't give a rat's behind what anyone else would like. It's the part we were told we were supposed to suppress when we were taught to use our Giver to share and be less selfish.

The balance between these two is pretty simple to arrive at, since both are required for us to live in this world of ours. If our Taker is eliminated, others will benefit and we will soon be bankrupt, financially, emotionally and spiritually. We will give away everything when our Giver runs the show, literally every single thing that we have.

Our Taker wants us to have whatever we think we want, so it too can go out of control and make us do really stupid stuff and end up hurting those around us, even people we don't know personally.

The balance is easy to achieve when dealing with almost everyone we meet since we think about what we are doing, way the benefits against the ramifications and test various outcomes before making a decision to give or take as our brain dictates might lead to some goal.

Except there is something else that intervenes when we have a romantic relationship with someone. That is the right side of our brain, which does not think at all but merely feels wants to be involved in the negotiations. Our feelings get in the way because they will choose either the Giver's side or the Taker's side without regard to what the data processing says we should do. The decisions are made based entirely on how we feel at the time. Thus, if we are happy to the point of being in a State of Intimacy, then our emotions tell our Giver to take charge and we will give away the farm to make our spouse happy and end up emotionally bankrupt as a result.

On the other hand, if we are unhappy or even slightly not quite so happy as before, our Taker is put in charge and we become purely selfish creatures who don't care anything at all about anyone else at all and only about getting our own way.

Neither the Taker nor the Giver are good and neither of them is bad. They are both good and bad depending on the situation. But both need to be controlled by the thinking part of our brain in order to prevent us from writing emotional checks our relationship can't cash or demanding our own way at our partner's expense.

The secret to POJA is learning to use the thinking part of our brains to make all decisions and stop relying on what we feel to pick a solution except that the goal is to pick the solution that makes both of you feel good about what was picked. It requires not just being OK with what happens but being happy that it happened in the end. It removes the regrets we often feel later and prevents us from becoming resentful over what our Giver has done when we gave away stuff before.

It isn't wrong to Give. It isn't wrong to Take. It is wrong to take or give based entirely on our current emotional state. Our Giver will always be sweet and nice, since nothing will be held sacred and anything is available for giving. Our Taker will always be demanding, angry when not getting our way, disrespectful and tend toward lying. These are all traits of our Taker that we have to override if we wish to find a solution that meets POJA.

BTW, if you are spending all your time in negotiations fighting off your Taker, you aren't in Intimacy. Intimacy always lets our Giver run the show.

The point is to stop making it give and take and start turning it into give and get. POJA agreement makes both Love Banks take a deposit and allows neither to pay the price. It makes you love each other more and prevents you from resenting what you might have given away or lost in the negotiation.

If I want red and my wife wants white, the compromise position would be pink. This would make BOTH of us unhappy and neither of us would be very enthusiastic about the solution. Therefore this does NOT follow POJA.

The mistake would be to draw a line in the sand and think that only red and white will make myself and her happy respectively. While pink might not work for either of us, perhaps blue, gray or chartreuse would work and by not allowing our emotional state to run the show, we can look for that answer instead of bowing to either position or falling into the trap of compromise which leads to both of us getting nothing we wanted or worse, something we did not want.

What I am saying is that when our emotions get involved we believe that there are two sides, yours and mine. In reality, there are choices that we can make and those choices do not all fall onto one side of the negotiations. Once you get used to doing this kind of thing you will find that you will begin to find that not only can you make each other happy by doing it, you can make yourself happy at the same time and in many cases you sill discover that the solution that you had to look hardest for turned out to be the very thing that needed to happen and either of the beginning positions would have spelled doom in the long run.

But it's like getting to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice...

The secret is to put both your Give and Taker on a short leash and stop either one of them from dominating negotiations. Make decisions with the left side and not the right.

Got ya!

Emotion not allowed where choices and decisions are involved. For now I can deal with that. And understand it. I'll let J know and we'll see if we can come up with and exceptions to the rule.

...if we can actually manage to do that in the first place...

Do you know what - I think we're back in recovery

We won't be if I don't go to bed NOW

Re TV example... we would watch the game which is current and record the movie to watch together another day.

Actually not true, what would happen is Flick would watch the game (motorsports in reality) and I would sit beside him on the couch and read something so we could talk from time to time while the movie is being recorded.

I'm not going to look back but I didn't think originally I mentioned a discussion about what was on telly - did Mark offer that as an example or did I mention it?

Anyway, that night that I did post there was a telly thing as I have mentioned since - thing is the thing that J wanted to watch was Harry Hill - comedy - and I am really buggedd by scripted comedy - it irritates me - stress levels rise- In the end it didn't matter to me what we watched as long as it wasn't HH - yes there was something I wanted to watch but not as much as I didn't want to watch what J wanted to watch.

We don't have recording facilities here.

ha - stopped you getting your run at athe top lil

So pleased for you ST.

Hope to get back here later today, but I gotta stop for now.
I will catch up!

I can see the last post from Sere as I type this and it looks so goooood !!!
A big YAY for recovery!

In my attempt to do catch up I've been reading your posts on other threads ...I miss you too, you are so damn cute, I love ya.

Nice to see you Vit



Ok then, now I have been slacking a bit. I haven't been workig on me and I have been coasting along and enjoying what is going on around me.

STs action plan for the week:

Get that Boundaries book back open and continue where I left off

Challenge myself to snog J once a day


Have been doing lots of reading on here and I am being inspired - I am not currently putting in the effort I should be. Fortunately thus far there has been no back slide.


We did have a little chat on the old SF lastnight- I tried to say that although I did find it hard I was open to persuasion - once I say no though it means no. See, I want to do it, I just come over all frozen sometimes if things aren't quite right.

I did offer phone sex, J not so keen (deleted rest of paragraph: TMI)

Didn't get that job and there is nothing around here unless you're into financial services.

Oh well - someone must have my time planned out for something else!