I read Dr. Harley's material on getting a low sex drive spouse (most often the wife) to meet the other spouse's emotional need for sex. It is interesting to note that Dr. Harley seems to view this as a fairly mechanical exercise. He even states that a person can learn to meet his/her spouse's need for sex, even given a low sex drive. It seems to me this misses the point. I want my wife to want me. If she isn't into it, sex is meaningless. I don't mean to be crass, but a wife who does it just to satisfy her spouse is providing the exact same thing a hooker provides. She is doing it out of obligation in order to get something in return. What am I missing?

You can look at it that way. I doubt it will increase your level of happiness.

Or you can choose to look at it as your wife giving you a tremendously loving and generous gift. Something incredibly precious and intimate and personal. Something she only shares with you. I hope that would increase your level of happiness.

After all, your wife might choose to view everything you do for her as nothing more than what a john provides. Payment for sex. Would you want her to adopt that view of everything you do for her?

As one half of a couple who each thinks the other views our marriage that way, I can assure you it is not a fun place to be. But in the end, it is your choice how to view things. Choose wisely.

Dear Holding. Sorry your marriage is approached that way. Sad. I see your point about attitude. But of course I never would say to my wife, "Dear, I really don't like talking to you or going places with you, or finding out how your day went, but I have to in order to get sex." That kind of attitude or belief would never be defended by any reasonable person. On the other hand, it seems fairly common in marriage for the low sex drive partner to freely admit they do not have sex out of desire, but that it is only done to keep the peace and get something in return. And based upon my reading, it seems as though a large number of so-called experts think that is OK. That is just kind of creepy to me.

I don't want you to think I am arguing with you to judge or denounce you. It is precisely because I share many of your thoughts and feelings that I imagine I understand how you approach this issue. It is only because I spent 8 year in marriage counselling and almost 8 years here that I see the errors I made and the ones I hope you will avoid making. It is only because the thoughts and feelings we share did such damage to my own marriage that I offer a different viewpoint for your consideration.

Why do you keep focusing on "keep the peace" or "get something in return" and not on "give a tremendously loving and generous gift"? How come you get to say "I don't take out the trash to get sex, I take out the trash because I love her" but she can't say the same thing in reverse? That is a Disrespectful Judgment toward your wife. A Love Buster.

Or to twist it slightly to show you the embedded value judgment you are making, why do you get to decide for her what is a valid reason for her to have sex with you? Why do you get to decide that she only gets to have sex when she "wants sex out of desire" and not when she "wants to offer sex as a generous gift"?

You seem to think that a person having sex when they don't want it out of desire is somehow wrong or shameful or crass. Some people might see things differently, or even quite the opposite. Some might say that having sex out of desire is the more selfish and crass motivation, and that offering sex to one's partner as a loving gesture is more selfless and noble. Why do you get to choose for both of you which it is?

Or from another perspective, I interpret your statement to mean "I want her to want me as much as I want her, so she will not have the power over our relationship and sex life that comes from wanting sex less than I do." Or "I want the ego stroke from knowing she wants me sexually". Again, that is you trying to dictate her thoughts and feelings. Disrespctful.

If you want an ego stroke (in MB terms, you have a need for Admiration, which is understandable and perfectly OK to have), then tell her openly and honestly how you feel and make a thoughtful request for a behavior she can do that will meet your need. But do not dress it up as some immutable law of human relations that people "should" only have sex when they want it out of desire. Because not everyone agrees with you. And your wife might be one of those who doesn't. And she might not enjoy knowing that you judge her negatively for feeling the way she feels.

hold,

I can see both sides here. In my sitch, she would have SF with me and use to make it seem like torcher or lay there like a blow up doll and then tell me she loved it, then other times she would go wild. I'm not looking for the wild woman everytime, but some reciprocation would be nice. I do agree with you that to have this given to you is a great act of selfless love and respect for your needs.

2010, I wish you good luck.

Swanman...

Reasonable, even usual, in marriage to want your spouse to have the same feelings you do...in fact, sometimes, we are provocative when we are angry so that our spouses WILL feel anger at the same time we do...outrage...joy...frustration...you name it.

Doesn't mean it's healthy, just understandable.

You both are two separate human beings with individual reactions, your own feelings, choices, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions. Believe me, in marriage, this gets very mixed up as we become "one" instead of maintaining the real one...the one union.

Owning what you want as yours is essential...it's valid. You want your W sexually, from your brain to your body...in that mix are body chemicals, hormones, pheromones, symbols, affection...lots of stuff. Impossible to have your W want you sexually, in the same way, with the same ingredients.

However...if your W agrees to have SF with you...even when she doesn't feel like it, mostly because in her brain, where sex is, there is a list (could be unresolved grievances, old stuff, current stuff, stuff that hasn't happened yet)...then accept her choice...because for me, at times, I have to commit to the action and then my feelings follow.

Getting in the mood is the old-school saying...means she IS attracted to you all the time...and has trained herself to not act to this attraction...and once the thoughts still, the body relaxes, the loving touches begin, she DOES respond to wanting you...

So getting to the commitment...understanding aversions, pre-existing aversions we deny during courtship...other stuff (the corrosive wax buildup of resentments, scorecards, personal insecurities, the detrimental stories we tell ourselves)...and the very real aversion we can develop with our spouses over time...exist.

Develop together a plan to share, address, acknowledge and understand each one...together. Really listen and learn who your W is today...her thoughts/feelings/beliefs/perceptions right now...

And get to know and share your own "why I desire you", where those come from...components of your attraction for her for SF...because within those may be statements of affection, admiration, conversation which meet her top ENs...

and consider, if SF isn't in the top five ENs of your spouse...you might just be meeting that EN very well for it not to be noticeable. Within SF can be ENs of security, loyalty, acceptance, approval, openness and honesty, admiration, appreciation...list goes on and on.

Do you know if your W perceives visually, audibly or kinetically?

A big part of SF is about knowing and being known today...deepest sacred connection...if, like Hold says, you choose to believe and experience it that way.

Part of falling in love with your spouse again and again...not the all or nothing...lots of ENs to meet...and our desire for another is manufactured in our own heads...you totally control your desire for your W...and she, for you. You can't make another want you...and we're told differently, day in and out (right cologne, aftershave, jeans, car).

Know your influences and get to know hers...allow for her to not want and do, anyway...and then feel loving after you guys begin...keep discovering, negotiating...acts of patience, interest, attention and devotion built the desire in the first place.

LA

loving,

Wise words, but I really get cynical at the kinesthetic, "get her in the mood" stuff. My wife doesn't have to motivate me or get me in the mood to go to the office daily or even to help her with DS. I really struggle with that feeling thing. I'm betting many women would want their Hs to "just" clean and cook or ask them on a date etc... without hinting or asking. It's not a stretch imo to have the W reciprocate or place the responsibility on herself to "get in the mood" every once in a while on a regular basis.

I'm curious. Since most people on this forum (for religious purposes, I assume) seem to frown on masturbation, exactly how do you expect your W to just get herself in the mood? You do realize that women are not machines, right? We can't just flick a switch, and whammo, we're suddenly "in the mood." Men may not require foreplay or any sort of preparation for a satisfactory sexual experience, but almost all women do.

Here is another perspective from me, a woman who likes sex.

1. If a woman is very busy or tired and is not used to having a lot of sex they will not be jumping thier husband or dragging him to bed to show thier desire.

The ANSWER for this sort of situation is for the wife to "try" and allow some sexual moves. And the husband to gently relax her enough to have sex. With loving words, bringing some fruit or a drink,, and some soft touching. Soon, that woman will WANT sex. But if the husband did not approach in this way, the wife would not even KNOW SHE NEEDED SEX! I have been there.


2. It is easier with some woman like me who likes sex. I am more likely to show my husband that I want sex. But it is difficult for women to initiate sex. We were trained not to initiate but to respond. I had to break my training in order to get more good sex.

3. Sex has to be good for both. The woman and the man have to be totally satisfied in sex. This takes experiance and knowing how each persons body responds. This should be practiced and verbally each partner needs to tell the other one what they like and in what order.

Because women are different then men regarding sexuality, a good smart man will "figure out what works best" to make love to his wife and then the problems will lessen. A woman who feels totally loved is more open to talking about, touching, and starting to have sex. "Starting sex properly" is EVERYTHING to many women. If a man can figure this out, he is a very lucky and happy man indeed!

I disagree that people here frown on masturbation. I like it and mutual masturbation is also a "sex act" that is possible. There are 1000 ways to make love and different ways can be used at different times to satisfy the loving spouses.

For example if one partner does not feel like having sex tonight but the other one needs it, there are 100 things that can be done to make all happy.

1. The sex desiring partner can be satisfyed by hands, orally, or a sex toy.

2. One partner can be satisfyed even if it means the sex desiring partner plays with themself while the other spouse kisses and touches them.

3. Sometimes only one spouse wants sex, but when they start, the other partner gets into it. That happens often with us.

4. Too many other situations to list.

What I am saying is if you start to learn about sex, sexuality, and your loving spouse's sex drive and what turns them on, and get into the complexities, the creative ways to have sex, and the give and take of making love, then you can make your sex life great. Be persistant and learn. Do not give up.

writer1 - I can only offer my experience here.

Getting "in the mood" for a woman - well, for me anyway - is actually two-fold.

First, I need to be able to relax with my H. That means that the day and evening prior to having SF (preferably longer than that, but for this example we'll go with that day) needs to not have been full of stress and frustration with LB's from H. That puts me in a defensive position and not feeling like being open and vulnerable with H. If there's been that kind of stress & strife, I need quite a bit of quiet time talking with him to defuse all of that and reconnect with him on an emotional and intellectual level before anything physical feels good. I don't even like him holding my hand or hugging me if he's been LBing me.

Assuming that the day's been ok, or that he's taken the time to reconnect with me, and assuming I don't need to de-stress from something from work (though that is usually fairly fast with some pleasant conversation and maybe a drink with H), then comes physical. I normally (and I suspect many women) do NOT physically warm up anywhere near as fast as my H. Nor do I appreciate it if he zeroes in on my breasts and other genitals immediately as he tends to do if I don't remind him. I need a pretty long warm-up time with caresses, massage, & such that's sensual, not explicitly sexual. Then I start "getting into it".

My H used to feel rejected by the fact that I wasn't jumping him and initiating sex frequently, until we had a frank conversation about this very thing. Many times when we start, I'm frankly not thinking, "gee, I'd love to have SF". But if he takes the time to do the things that "rev" me up, I get into it to more than his satisfaction. And the more pleasant experiences I have where he's not whining and berating me over my lack of drive compared to his, the more I tend to think about it independently and sometimes I find myself initiating things and then I don't need all that warm-up time either.

Also, when H isn't LBing me, and is meeting my EN's, I'm willing to engage SF even if I'm not particularly in the mood, because I a) trust that I will enjoy it because he will take his time; and b) realize it's a top EN for him and I want to meet it. That doesn't mean that I'm putting myself out or making myself miserable for him. If I'm not feeling well, or for some reason I know I just can't enjoy it and it won't be a good experience for me, I let him know that, and we table it for then. (Though for the record, I have no issues with my H masturbating - I'll also participate actively or passively (he prefers me in my flannel nightgown to porn - isn't that sweet?) if he requests it.)

Men usually become more intent on SF the less of it they have, up to the point of becoming disgusted to the point of just repressing their feelings for their wife. She might like that at first, but his other feelings for providing DS, FS, conversation, and every other EN of hers will be repressed right along with it. The first time he meets another woman who rekindles his interest in women, his wife and marriage are in trouble.

Women seem to usually have less desire for sex the less sex they have. Go without it a while, and pretty soon they stop thinking about it. They are "in the mood" less and less. If they do wonder why, they are going to look for a reason outside of themselves. Must be their husband taking that new job they didn't want him to take, or not making enough money, or not keeping the yard as nice as the Joneses.

If you expect someone else to change your attitude, but for your spouse to change their own attitude, don't be surprised when it's the OW or OM who changes their attitude.

I'm generalizing, but I also think that LBs tend to diffuse sexual desire for a woman more easily than a man. In my own marriage, if we exchange ugly words or have a fight, it's very difficult for me to just forget about it (if it hasn't been resolved) and participate eagerly in SF. H is able to compartmentalize. In fact, he often tells me "I just want to relax and ease into the morning/day/evening" etc.

Easy for him to say. I'm sitting there still steaming and he's able to just put it aside.

ETA: Wanted to say that this is an area where MB definitely makes a difference. When I feel safe admitting how I feel to H, and he in turn doesn't disrespect or otherwise LB my feelings, then we are able to talk it out. And THEN I am able to participate with enthusiasm instead of reluctance.

In order for me to do the dishes, my wife has to set the feelings just right. Not for one day, but for many days and she has to initiate and then just let it happen naturally, but there is no gaurantee I'll still do them because I might be tired or might of had a stressful day. Same goes for FS, affection and conversation.

Kind of sounds stupid doesn't it? Put SF in there and it sounds just as stupid.


Retread is right, I've put up many EP so this hasn't happened, but those EPs are eroding with time and I came very close to making a mistake that could have ruined my M. I've done exactly what he describes though. My repression has affected all of my other thoughts to satisfy my Ws EN, I just don't care. If I do them out of habit, fine, but if I don't so what. This is actually making her think and SF is happening again because I'm sick of not having my ENs met. Kind of like a Plan B, I'm protecting myself from her boarderline narcissism.

mud, as a woman, there is a part of me that would like to pick apart the first part of your post. But as a woman with a high SF, need, I can't. You're right. Our front door is stupid and old. You have to jiggle, put your weight on your right foot, and hold your mouth just right to unlock it. After awhile I just get the urge to kick it open. One shouldn't have to juggle so many balls just to open the door.

Yes, I am inherently female, so I do like affection, sweetness, etc. But when the setup is infintely more exhausting than the act itself....what's up with that??? I am not saying H does this. I am speaking about SF in general. Sometimes the old Nike commercial comes to mind....

I'm afraid there's not much hope of you ever having a truly fulfilling and intimate relationship with your W if you can't see the difference between SF and doing the dishes. I'm sorry, but not all EN's are created equally. They just aren't. It's entirely possible to do the dishes after a huge fight that included lots of LB's and AO's, but (for a woman at least) it is next to impossible to open herself up emotionally and physically to her H in an intimate way after such an encounter. She might be able to perform the act, but her heart wouldn't be in it

Doing the dishes requires nothing more than that you stand next to the sink and run messy plates and cups under a stream of water. There are no emotions involved. It is a rote physical act, a chore so to speak, and can be accomplished whether one is in the mood or not. Is that the kind of SF you would like to have? Because I can all but guarantee that approaching SF the same way that you would approach doing the dishes will not lead to a close and intimate experience. You may get the physical act, but that's all you'll get.

themud, it doesn't sound so stupid when you recognize that 4 out of 5 women have been sexually abused, usually before they graduate high school. It doesn't sound so stupid when you have a basic understanding that sexuality for most women is more of an emotional and mental activity than a physical one. It doesn't sound so stupid when you take the time to understand what sex means to a woman.

What sounds stupid is equating sex to washing the dishes or FS or DS, or even conversation. I can provide or receive all of those things to or from a roommate.

I don't know if this analogy works, but are there any moms out there who have ever been really tired or stressed, and your daughter comes up toyou and says, "Let's play Harry Potter!" That means I get to be all the professors and she is Hermoine. This has been several years ago. Now, honestly, what I want to say is that I am too tired. What I feel like doing is laying still on the floor while she stirs the cauldron. What I do? Put on my hat, do all the voices, and have her make a very compicated potion. Because she wants to spend time wth me. Because I love her. Now, am I being dishonest with her? Would it be better if I told her I just really didn't want to but I would?

Can I do the same thing with SF? Well, maybe not the voices...that would be weird.

What about conversation?

I agree with you 100%, but those things that need to be in place are too subjective. I've been there and done that. It is very hard for some women to imagine a warm hearted, caring, devoted husband that cleans better than their wife, cooks better, does laundry better, vacuums better, irons better... There are men out there like that. Men who are affections and jump at the chance to rub Ws feet or shoulders, brings home flowers and chocolates, lights candles. On the rare day off, bake cookies with the kids before she gets home from shopping. Helps her bring in the groceries and put them away.

With family in town they are floored how masculine my son is and how boyish he is, but how he, at the age of ten, jumps to help gradma's coat on off and hangs it, how he goes to the kitchen, but asks if anyone wants anything before he goes in to get a glass of water. He's not perfect and leaves his socks on the floor, but OMG his chivalry is unmatched at his age. Where does he get it? I guess it must be instinct or... is it possible that his dad does this and he is copying me?

I've tried everything tangeable and intangeable, so I don't believe all the crap spewed anymore. Yes you get in the mood or you don't. That's like saying others are responsible for making you happy. Unless they've done something to make you unhappy, it's your responsibility to be happy. Once someone makes you unhappy, says sorry and you get over it in minutes/hours/days you should be in that happy place.

My wife has shown me by example that all of that stuff is baloney. She tells me she is horny around noon. WTF good does that do us even on the weekend, not to mention I'm at work at that time. I get home help with dinner, dishes, entertain the kids, help with laundry and the cleaning SHE DIDN'T DO, and climb into be to have her not even make herself available or respond to me trying to get her in the mood. Am I bitter from all the years of this? YES. Is she now turning? YES. WHY? Because I'm fed up with her excuses that I'm responsible for her moods! Will we have a satisfying M? We will not have one in 7 years if she does not see how I'm trying to get rid of the past pain and how she is responsible for being a W. I've never once asked her to do my laundry or praise me with admiration, I get that at work and I can clean and do laundry better than she can! I've started out nicely asking for SF then gave up, and am willing to give up our M when the kids are gone to release me from being with someone who either doesn't want me or doesn't care.

It all comes back to this. SF is different from all the other needs. It is different because of the powerful emotions many people associate with it. And it is different because it is the only need where we require complete fidelity.

That makes it unfair for the higher drive spouse. Period. It simply isn't fair. And it cannot be made fair. And a large part of the debate over SF would end of the lower drive spouse would acknowledge that simple fact.

They have unique power in the relationship. With that power comes a responsibility. Often the lower drive spouse does not want either. But it is inescapable once you impose monogamy on the relationship.

I think most higher drive spouses would be much more understanding and appreciative if the lower drive spouse would admit that the situation is not fair. And do their best to help remedy the imbalance. Rather than complaining that the mismatch isn't their fault and they don't want the responsibility for fixing it.

It isn't anybody's "fault". But the lower drive spouse is the one who has most of the power to resolve the problem. Which also isn't fair. And places an undue burden on the lower drive spouse. Complaining about that is no more productive than the higher drive spouse complaining how many hoops they have to jump through before sex occurs.

Assuming the lower drive spouse is being honest about what they need to be "in the mood", the higher drive spouse needs to jump through the hoops. And assuming the higher drive spouse is being honest about how much they need SF, the lower drive spouse needs to do what they can to minimize the number of hoops involved.

Of course it is absurd to equate SF with washing the dishes.
SF does not equate to any other EN.

But a lot of wives seem to treat it like washing the dishes, as a chore.

There is a big difference, too, between submitting to sexual intimacy when you are not in the mood, in order to satisfy (what you think is ) a selfish physical need of your husband, and with it being his effort to express his love for you. If it is the latter, and you just reject him, you are being quite callous. I'll bet this behavior is accompanied by rejecting a lot of other acts of affection, too, not just SF.

TAC,

Yes, and I can go somewhere else to get SF, but I don't. We could run circles around this arguement and that is where I think Dr. H has failed to address SF properly.

Believe me, things are getting way better for me, but the past pain of refusals is still raw. She's used every excuse she could get her hands on, but has run out of them.

Are you saying you get LBed and have a fight, then have meaningful conversation? Weird. Is it possible he doesn't even want to talk, but is doing it because he knows that it will bring you back together? Is it possible he's rolling his eyes inside his head thinking, 'Just sit here and talk, and we can get back on track.'?

As a 46-year-old woman struggling with weird hormone changes and lower libido, I'd just like to pipe in and say that the difference between it being a generous gift and prostitution is love and committment. Prostitutes and their clients don't love each other or commit to each other in an emotional way.

The second thing is that it's important for you to learn to be open and honest with your wife. This is the one person in the world who can give you this gift without it being wrong and unethical. SF is one of your ENs, one of your top ENs. Certainly it would help if she desired you, but when someone hands you a gift, you don't say "Sorry, take it back. You didn't present it to me the way I want you to." You should take it and thank her in an equitable way and be O&H later about it.

If you want to feel desired, you will need to talk it over with her. This could actually be a hormonal issue. Several physical ailments can compromise libido. Has she seen a doctor?

Also, you can ask her what she finds desirable in a man, in a physical sense. Keep in mind that you might not be able to fulfill this need and that you could be opening yourself up to be hurt. Do you want that, and can you handle that?

Keep in mind that if your wife's top EN is DS, and you fold clothes - would you be offended by no thank you for what you've done and requests to fold the clothes her way? You're going to have to find a way to show appreciation for the SF and then tell her that it would mean even more to you and be even more fulfilling to you if she desired you and is there anything that can be done by either of you to help that along.

ROFLMAO, Luri...I love your humor. You're a delight. And you nailed what I wanted to say to Themud...


TM, I said "getting in the mood"...I didn't rehash what you've read and debated before about YOU getting her in the mood...

I meant a spouse can choose to have SF without feeling desire at the time of the choice...that the desire can come after.

And it's the attitude, TM, that just hits my button...your DJs, the way you justify and talk yourself into a palpable resentment, ongoing and stoked...there's no one answer.

There's your part and her part...and what Luri wrote...where you decide in your head, take the action, and the feelings follow...is key.

It is with Affection...you reach out and hold your spouse's hand in a difficult discussion--not because you FEEL like it...you may feel attacked, and DESIRE to be reaching out and ringing his neck (in my case, hers, in yours)...and you don't...you act affectionately because you are committed to The Marriage.

And the loving feelings follow...because you didn't sacrifice, give up anything to reach out and hold your partner's hand...and your feelings IMMEDIATELY change...not to control THEIR emotions...you change your own.

Same with SF...and you made a great point above...getting to where your spouse will act and know their feelings will follow...that they only begin without desire and that desire builds...may begin with compliance, that affirming touch...and build to the permission to attack you, with the same gusto, after reversing aversion, disentangling SF from resentment, previous beliefs and perceptions...and building freedom within intimacy...

One step at a time...and you know what I hear in your posts sometimes, TM...an expectation to be misunderstood...not heard...expectation of stereotype and to be generalized...discounted...dismissed even.

Because your half of the marriage is equally powerful, important and limited as hers. Same for SF. Your persistence in choosing to believe you are powerless, stuck, more limited than she is...making her the solution (another way to make her the problem) isn't MB, not real and not really helpful to your life.

Your wife didn't want to lose you after your 2-week EA...you had a lot of SF, intense...were jumped. There was more than once in a while...and then no more hysterical bonding.

She wasn't choosing to meet your ENs from love...she was going crazy from fear...for she truly loves you, and you've said, you guys are GREAT together except for the SF...she acts from love a lot, she's there for you...and she has a problem with SF...she struggles. Back and forth...seems like she uses it as a weapon and then a bane...which is both about power...not love. She's in her own power struggle...and doesn't stop loving you.

That's what I see...and you, saying you are staying only for the kids until they are old enough, sticking it out in misery...create half your misery. You are loved in abundance...and your focus on this lack, the added INTENSITY (not negating it's real), drains your own love bank, wipes out her many deposits...and you're doing that. She's not.

Don't add to your crud, Mud. (I'm not as funny as Luri.) Your pain is real...you feel rejected...doesn't mean you are being rejected. Reality is you are not getting what you want most, when you want it and in the way you want. Do your part and halve your own pain.

So you can thrive, anyway. And consider...what attracted you most to your wife will be your undoing...will be what sucks your focus in, even after you commit to perceiving more balance, the big picture...and let yourself be undone.

She's the one. She does not want you to be in misery, and she's not your cure. The marriage is...together, equally.

Sticking it out is a sucky goal. Working through, to keep on as you stay...much healthier...and you're worth that. For you, about you...your half. She didn't break apart your family, either...and she can at any moment in time.

So can you. And you do and she does, chip by tiny chip, until we see our part and stop. Then the whole marriage changes. Don't do the math (half and whole) because it's like turning a sphere inside out...makes my head hurt.

Judging your wife based on what you like/don't like...how you are...is absurd. She's not you. Had she been, you wouldn't have been attracted to her in the first place. You see parts of yourself in her...stop determining what and how she should be...identify the parts of you. Period. Wherever you find them. They are yours and solely your responsibility.

Sorry you didn't hear me agreeing with you before you posted...acts of love first, feelings follow. I'm sure you've told your wife your wishes...separately from your requirements...and know the difference.

LA

themud, I haven't gone back to get your whole story, but it sounds like you have been run through the wringer. There are definitely women out there that will take a guy like you who bends over backwards to do everything he can for them, and then twist them around. It's sad, and it casts the rest of us in a bad light.

My H sounds a lot like you. He cooks and cleans, sews and does laundry, takes care of the kids and the house -- all many times better than I. He is chivalrous and attentive. Now that he had his "a-ha" moment and sees how many of his other behaviours were serious LB's for me (not to say I was perfect, but he wouldn't address any issues or work on them before) I couldn't ask for a better H. There are wonderful guys out there, and women who appreciate them. There are also bad apples.

Back when things were bad, though, we'd have a fight but then we'd end up talking and that's always how we would pull closer together. It's a high EN for both of us, and one of our major areas of compatibility. He wasn't at the time admitting any responsibility for his behaviour, he'd just get past his AO or DJ and act like nothing had happened, and once I'd start talking to him again, the conversation would be what would end up salving my wounds so I could get close to him again.

I agree wholeheartedly with what someone (on the previous screen, so I can't see who said it) said about the issue being honesty when there's a mismatch in drives and the unfairness of it. My H has a much higher drive than I do. Now that our relationship is on sounder footing and I don't resent him because of the LB's and I am working from a place of wanting to meet his EN's, we're much more O&H about what he wants & needs, what I want & need, and how we can get there. Yes, he has to put in more work to get me "warmed up" but then he gets what he needs, and I'm not only happy to meet his needs, I get enjoyment from it, which he also wants and needs. It's only through us "meeting each other where we are" that we're more able to figure out a solution that may not be 100% perfect for each of us, but it's far and away better for both of us than where we were. And, it's getting better and better every day, because as my new positive history with SF & H overwrites my years of bad history, SF gets more enjoyable for me, I anticipate it more, I even start initiating it, and the frequency starts going up.

Ouch ouch ouch... Somehow this hurts. Too accurate (you know I'm the high libido spouse).

LA,

Yes very accurate in your assesment, wow! That is why I rant and get on MB forum, there has been change in her and she is 46 as well. My resentment is waning (thank gawd), but is still very present. I feel for others now that get on here with the same problem and will defend their stance to the end. SF is different and when it is discounted as if it can be discounted for weeks, months, years than the problem IS SF, not JUST everything in the M or the W is using her M for FS and DS, I just don't see why any W would stay M to someone that is SO bad that you would reject H daily/weekly/monthly for years. It it makes absolutely no sense when the W is shocked years later when she'll claim she's been very satisfied in the M, but shocked now to learn that H has been miserable even though he wanted SF and W continued to refuse and now he's resentful for years of rejection.

You are very wise and I appreciate it!

TM:

My wish for you is that you realize how much your resentment is internally generated, and you choose not to keep feeding that resentment. Your wife is now behaving closer to the way you always wished she would. Rejoice in that. Appreciate her for that. Admit that she has changed. And that you are also capable of changing and not wallowing in resentment.

The tone of your posts speaks as if your resentment is a thing apart from you. Like a glacier. And you are happy to see that with the coming of spring, some of the ice is melting. But there is also the issue of whether you are holding a blowtorch to the ice. Trying to melt it. Or whether you have set up a snowgun, blowing more ice crystals onto the pile.

As someone who struggles with your struggle. And who holds onto his resentment as tight as anyone. I realize how difficult it is to heed this advice. I am determined not to. Perhaps you will choose more wisely. As LA said, choosing to merely "stick it out" is a sucky choice. Especially since your wife's changes show that you certainly have better choices available to you.

Just giving examples of the problems that ly in our M. Yes at times I'm holding a torch and sometimes the snow thrower. I am very happy things are getting better.

The problem is the cycle. I am darned if I'll let my heart go through it again. She needs to show change over ---- (I don't know how long) before I'll open my heart back up to the beating it took for too long. I wish I or someone else had an answer for when that will be. Believe me when I say I don't cherrish the resentment, that is why I came to MB, to find someone who is going through what I'm going through. It seems the closest I can find is surviving infidelity and the recovery. The ones who's S set them up and then cheated again. Yes my W went W, and I've gotten over that, but the giver in me gave up and I feel empowered by not letting her hurt me anymore knowing she can't now and if the change is a facade like it has been in the past, that she will not hurt me forever.

Does she know this? That you are keeping the walls up to protect yourself? Knowingly and intentionally? She needs this information so she can understand why her loving behavior is not having an impact on your feelings (you are blocking out the feelings). And so she can decide whether she wants to continue to offer loving gestures when she knows they will be discounted.

I understand the desire to keep the walls up. I understand you do not trust her enough to let them down. As long as you are asking yourself when it is time to take them down, I think you are headed in the right direction.

Please note that the walls are not about her. They are about you. You do not trust yourself to be able to handle the pain. So you wall it out. Along with much of the pleasure.

I am here to tell you that you can handle it. You can handle the pain. You can let the walls down. And allow her to hurt you. And you will survive it even if she does.

But I am not the one who has to deal with the fear and the risk and the pain. So you must choose to take the walls down. Do it for yourself.

Or do it for me. Since I will never choose to do it for myself.

Wow, I had no idea what I was going to start. Thank you all for an interesting discussion.

Guess I'm sort of a simple guy. When I got married (after 2.5 years of courting) my assumption was that my W found me attractive, intelligent and a host of other things that caused her to want to marry me. I certainly viewed her that way. In my mind she was the most wonderful woman in the world. I understood the need to be kind, generous and loving toward her. But I can tell you it never occurred to me that if I do those things, she still would not be sexually attracted to me. Never even crossed my mind. Why in the hell would you ever marry someone who you are not sexually attracted to?

I realize that on average, men are more into sex than women, but it is really hard to grasp that apparently some women (including my wife) stand at the alter thinking, "Gee, this guy will make good money, be a good father, protect the family and . . . but I really am not interested in intimacy with him." Ladies, please enlighten!

Swan - yes, we do get sidetracked quite a bit around here.

Women get a lot of mixed messages and bad programming from our FOO and society in general when it comes to sex. Too many of us have also been abused. Each of us ends up with a different attitude toward sex as a result, and responds differently.

I have known women who just don't enjoy sex at all, don't think they ever will, but want a family and all the other things that go with a relationship and so they will "trade" SF for those things. Some of them do it willingly and lovingly, it's just not something they really get into, and some start resenting it over time and it becomes an issue. They're not lying, per se... they just don't know any other way to be.

I know a lot of women (myself included) who enjoy sex a great deal, but it's fragile. LB's can shut us down fast and hard, and it can be a devil of a time getting us back to a trusting place once that happens because of the past hurts that the current guy had nothing to do with. Not fair, but it is what it is.

I know VERY FEW women for whom sex is just sex. For most of us, it's so complicated, and so individually complicated, that there's just no way to say "do this, don't do that, and everything will be great". And to make it worse, we've been conditioned not to talk about it. Many of us have been conditioned to not even be in touch with ourselves to a point to even have a clue what we need or how we really feel about it. It's sad, and our partners pay a price as high as the price we pay - sometimes higher.

I still believe if a husband is kind, loving, smart, and persistant, he can help his wife not only "like" sex...but "want" sex with him.

Women dont always WANT men like men WANT women. It is very different but not better or worse.

If a man understands this difference, he can do a "work around" and help both people get the sexual intimacy they need and want.

You're leaving out a few things...

First, this could be a physical or chemical issue. Have either of you changed in appearance drastically since marrying? Do you both take care of yourselves physically? Physical health and self image has a lot to do with a woman's libido and self confidence.

Second, one of the first revelations I encountered here at MB is that love is conditional. Yep. Conditional. It's an action word - and if we don't show our love for our spouses the way they want to be loved, we're spinning our wheels, spitting into the wind, swimming up stream, or however else you want to describe it.

Third, your last paragraph is (now you gotta admit) a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Most men don't marry just for the sex. Some also want a family, their laundry washed, their meals made, their shopping done, etc. etc. etc.

Why would men continue to "whine" about lack of sex? When instead, they can do a study on womens sexual response and get to know thier wife's individiual sexual response. I had boyfriends who spent years studying a woman and what she needs in bed. Really. For fun! Because they were interested in what made women sexually tick!

AND IT ALL PAID OFF FOR THEM in A HAPPY SEXUALLY ACTIVE WIFE WHO LOST HER HANGUPS AND LEARNED TO LIKE SEX MORE AND MORE!!!

A man smart enough to do all this is most definitly...WANTED by his wife. Take it from me!!!! The wife!

TAC,

Well put. What many refused H wonder is this about LB and the MP principles.

Let us say my W and I are really trying. And for all tense and purposes let's say there are 2 LB, LB A and B.

My wife LB A me. I respond with respect and love and we recover. We have SF that night.

I accidently LB B her. She responds with respect and love and revover, only this night she rejects me because I LB B her earlier in the day. WTF?

We fully recover from this, but the next week:

She accidently LB B me. I respond with respect and love and we have SF that night.

I accidently LB A her. She responds with respect and love, but she refuses SF that night. WTF?

This was a common occurance in our M. For some reason the EXACT LB would be done and it was SO much WORSE when I did it than when she did it. How does this make sense to men?

Thanks Chick. One question for you. Do you think sometimes we humans fulfill stereotypes simply because we buy into the stereotype? For example, men are stereotyped as sex-crazed, testosterone driven creatures who can't keep their pants on either before or after marriage. A lot of people (including parents) buy into this, and use that as an excuse for promiscuity and/or infidelity. I refused to buy that stereotype. I was a virgin when I got married, and I have been faithful to my wife for all 18 years of our marriage. So, how does this apply to women?

Well, women are "supposed" to be complicated. Women are "supposed" to have all kinds of emotional hangups about sex. Women aren't "supposed" to enjoy it as easily as men. I'm really not sure if that is physiologically and psychologically true of women, or if a lot of women believe they are supposed to be that way and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Please understand that I'm aware of a woman's need for love, affection, tenderness, cleanliness and all of that. I am not a neanderthal. But does it really have to be complicated that a normal sex life is almost impossible? Kinda sad.

Hogwash.

Hey, Mr Mud, you are going from the PREMISE that a man and a woman look at sex the same way!

If you realize that how a man views sex is not at all like how a woman views sex, then you will start to understand the whole deal.

If you go from the WRONG or ERROR FILLED PREMISE, you will always be frustrated and think that "things dont add up".

You need to learn more about women and men. And each of thier sexual responses.

Swanman...assumptions kill connection. Just thought I'd throw that in...

what you thought and reasoned before you experienced doesn't make you wrong...

made in you inexperienced.

Now you know...and it is perplexing and all these posters are giving you great advice...remember that a huge Love Buster (LB) (each LB robs 20 love deposits), and super common, is assumptions.

And we made our spouses up in our minds before we married...mostly. We were blown away (focused) on all the great stuff...and after we're married, true intimacy is seeing all of each other...even the ugly, confusing, irrational and crazy parts. A bundle, not one flipping over into another person...more the same, very real parts, shared.

Only beliefs you can change are your own...not assuming, see your wife as totally new each day might go a long way to having a thriving marriage for ya. Thanks for coming back to your thread.



LA

Please understand that I'm aware of a woman's need for love, affection, tenderness, cleanliness and all of that. I am not a neanderthal. But does it really have to be complicated that a normal sex life is almost impossible? Kinda sad.

I find this to be wrong wrong wrong. Yes an ignorant or inexperianced man would think that it is so hard or complex to get it done and get the sex that they need. No it is not complex. No it is not complicated.

What helps is good communication about sex and a good strong relationship with two unselfish spouses.

IF sexuality in marriage is really tough, usually it is the tip of the iceberg and reveals other more difficult even heinous problems between the spouses. For example in the midst of selfishness, addictions, bad communication, or things like this NOTHING in marriage is able to go smoothly much less sex.

Most likely there are MORE THAN A FEW MINOR LB's GOING on if one spouse is whining about lack of sex and the other spouse does not seem to recognize sexual needs.

If a woman (or her husband) is a selfish person, then nothing in the marriage will go well...nothing in the marriage will "seem to be fair" and many problems will result.....including sexual problems.

Well, women are "supposed" to be complicated. Women are "supposed" to have all kinds of emotional hangups about sex. Women aren't "supposed" to enjoy it as easily as men. I'm really not sure if that is physiologically and psychologically true of women, or if a lot of women believe they are supposed to be that way and so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I know what you mean, but I think if you have someone who was raised in a decent home with decent parents, who takes care of themself and who has good self confidence, all these things won't matter when they're with someone they love and trust in a healthy marriage.

I'm sure it feels exasperating and frustrating that Jupiter seems to need to be aligned with Mars for the sparks to fly, but I think that maybe this is how it's all designed to be. Maybe we're supposed to work on ourselves and our treatment of others in order to be rewarded for it.

Bubbles, it is obvious you are coming from the perspective of a woman who is open to and interested in a good sexual relationship. So based on that starting point it is reasonable to conclude that a bad sex life is the manifestation of larger problems in the marriage.

Trust me, there are lots of women out there who are completely happy in their marriage, but have little or no sexual desire. This idea that a happy marriage necessarily leads to female sexual desire is incorrect. And frankly, I think it is a convenient way to presume male fault. It allows women to take the position that never having interest in sex literally starting on the wedding night is somehow the man's fault.

Again, Bubbles, this obviously doesn't apply to you. But don't naively assume that all women are as well intentioned or emotionally balanced as you.

Ok, Ok. I will concede with yo ladies on here. I know this to be true, it just isn't/wasn't in our M. My wife was selfish and has admitted it and is doing her best to redeem herself.

I was lousy at sex when I was younger, but was ALWAYS into what the woman wanted because I knew I could O when I wanted and I did/do like foreplay more than the climax (which I consider the icing on the cake, not the other way around). I've always been a generous lover and my wife has always said I know just what to do when we did it. The problem was getting to the point of initiation. She was non responsive, out right said no, or did not make herself available so it wasn't the foreplay to get her in the mood, we never got to the foreplay part!!! She got what she wanted in our M, and didn't care about what I wanted or needed.

We talked until we were blue, she had her list of things that had to happen and I can say ALL of those things would get checked off the list and we still would not have SF. Then a new list or something else was added and I can say it would literally get checked off. After 13 years of it, she can no longer put anything on that list unless it was way way out there like a mansion in Beverly Hills. She has realized that the list is complete, she has no excuses and I'm withdrawing.

LA was right when she said my W did it with a frenzy because of the EA I got into, it worked I might add. When we are doing it regularly I feel unconquerable, she sees this and loves how I am, but I refuse to tell her it's enough because she'll revert back to me saying it was enough and will stop.

I am very envious of the H who have sexual wives, I should've waited to find one, and thought I had one. I was tricked!

You can whine
You can cry
If you continue this...
Sex won't fly

If you pick a nice loving spouse
And you dont act like a louse
You can learn to please your mate
Open up that sexual gate

Learn and learn and learn some more...
What is the key that will open thier door!
As you talk about how to make it better
She will want you and get wetter

You can develop the sex life you need
If you are smart and brave indeed
Be interested in learning how
A woman reacts and what she wants NOW!

You can do this, don't be afraid
Touch your spouse right and make the grade
Learn what makes your wife's heart sing.
Then, forever after, you will have everything!!!

Trust me, there are lots of women out there who are completely happy in their marriage, but have little or no sexual desire.

OK, I give you this. But if a woman is unselfish, she will realize her husband DOES need sex. And he will let her know he needs and wants to make love. And they will both communicate well and compromise to make it work for both.

SHE COULD HAVE NO DESIRE AND STILL LEARN TO PLEASE HER HUSBAND.

This idea that a happy marriage necessarily leads to female sexual desire is incorrect.

(I never said this was true, it takes more than a happy marriage. It takes a lot to get to the good sex...take it from me it took three years to figure out the sex issues in my marriage)

And frankly, I think it is a convenient way to presume male fault.

WHO SAID THIS??? I never heard this before.

It allows women to take the position that never having interest in sex literally starting on the wedding night is somehow the man's fault.

WOW WHY would women want to continually BLAME MEN!!!??? UNLESS YOU ARE A BLAMER AND SIMPLY WANT TO BLAME OTHER PEOPLE. GET A CLUE AND LEARN ABOUT EACH OTHER. PLEASE. YOU CAN EACH GET WHAT YOU NEED. No need to blame anyone!!!

I don't buy into stereotypes as a general rule. My nickname is The AntiChick for a number of really good reasons. My general style of relating to people is a more "masculine" one. My H's is a more "feminine" one. Gets weird at our house sometimes.

For the record, I enjoy sex as much as any guy. I could recount stories that would more than prove that, but they're not appropriate for this forum. I've never bought into any bogus theory that women aren't supposed to enjoy sex, and neither do any of my close friends.

Is it *supposed* to be complicated? Heck, no!

Now - here's the reality of the situation. I can name you roughly 30 female friends of mine from high school through today that I've been close enough to discuss sexual topics with. Of those 30, exactly TWO - COUNT `EM - T-W-O - had *NOT* been molested by a family member or friend of the family by the time they got to high school (and I'm not one of the 2). At least half of us had been date raped in high school or college. A couple had been victims of a more violent rape. Less than a half dozen of us had anything approaching a healthy education about sex or our bodies from our parents. Few of us saw healthy relationships being modeled in our own families - close or extended, and sex in our generation (I'm 40) was a verboten topic of discussion with our parents. Most of us who were abused were told not to discuss it or to forget it, and didn't get any therapy until we were adults and sought it on our own. Many of us who were abused were told that it didn't really happen. I didn't grow up in some inner city streets, either. I'm an upper middle class, WASP princess, as are almost all the women I'm talking about.

Now, I don't want to come off like some screaming feminist, but the fact is that our society denigrates women. Abuse of women is tolerated and denied, and the messages about our sexuality are confusing to say the least. We're told when we're young that we're not supposed to think about sex, or touch ourselves or want sex - and then once we're married BOOM we're supposed to flip a switch. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. And physiologically and psychologically speaking, womens' sexuality just simply isn't wired the same way mens' is. Now, some women will have a more masculine sexuality, just as some men have a more feminine sexuality (and I'm not talking about homosexuality here, just the manner of interaction and processing) but stereotypes evolve out of kernels of truth. The biggest sexual organ for humans is the brain, and this is *especially* true for women. Generally speaking, you don't turn a woman on by grabbing her crotch, or by showing her a naked man (last chicken in the shop look, anyone?). You turn a woman on with words and non-sexual caresses. Multitudes of studies have been done about this - it's not just a stereotype.

So yes. Women *do*, BY AND LARGE, have a lot of baggage about sexuality. But it's not because they're women. It's because they're women IN THIS SOCIETY.

/ off rant

All the ANTICHICK Says is true in my experiance!

I still think a lot of this has to do with self confidence. A woman who likes her own body won't be so reluctant to bare it and allow her man to be pleased by it and vice versa as long as he's treating her well.

The other biggie is affection. Women generally hate to be pounced on in bed and would rather the foreplay start way earlier, with gentle gestures of appreciation of her body in words and caresses throughout the day. Women need affection. It's a huge part of their foreplay. It seems like men tend to think that anything blatantly sexual that doesn't include intercourse is foreplay.

Why don't you guys try an experiment. Every hour, approach your wives and either say something appreciative about their looks, kiss their necks or their palms, or caress their breasts or rumps with their clothes on. A few minutes before bed, tell her something like you've got a painful HO and need her in bed asap. Try ravaging your wives for heaven's sake. The odds are pretty darn good that they'll LOVE it.

"A painful HO?????"

LOL<LOL<LOL!!!

How bout just "act like a HO"????

TAC,

Come on. I see your point, but let's look at sit coms and commercials and dramas. Society treats men like stupid apes (Geico?) that are only good for making fun of and are so stupid they don't know when they are made fun of. Women are protrayed as smart, fit, wise, ambitious, funny, loving...

ROFLMAO. I meant hard on. Oh well. Guess my efforts at discretion were wasted.

Bubbles, where to start?

A woman with no sex drive cannot satisfy a man because if a man's wife has no sexual desire for him it is a personal affront. "I love you but don't desire sex with you" is the ultimate oxymoron as far as a man is concerned.

And as far as the blame game goes, when there is a problem in marriage there is always some source of the problem. If I understand you correctly, you believe a poor sex life can be "blamed" on other marriage problems. I am simply saying there are lots of women who are happy in marriage but don't want sex. You grudgingly agreed, but then still went on to say it can be fixed. No, it can't be fixed if one spouse simply doesn't feel enough toward the other spouse to conjure up some sexual desire.

Wow. Just imagining my H doing that off and on all evening while we're doing other things gets my pulse rate up 10 points.

Though I will issue my warning about the breasts - some women do not appreciate uninvited touches there. It became a HUGE issue with my H and me.

Depends. Are you looking for verbal affirmations of desire or actions? You don't get to know what's going on in your wife's head unless she tells you. Why are you assuming you know what she's thinking? It sounds like your self confidence is dependent on your wife's sexual desire. Could be this has become a catch 22 for you. Perhaps your lack of self confidence has turned her off.

MUD, so true. Women buy the products as they sit at home watching all the shows. So men are portrayed as stupid, etc. I hate it.

That show, "Everyone hates RAymond" was based on that. Women just love that show (I hate it and I am a woman)

Some women give ALL US WOMEN a bad name. I am unappy when I meet some selfish sex hating women who rule thier men with an iron hand. I hate this.

Well...I get ya there. I was visualizing actual caresses along the sides of the breasts and no (editing) fancy stuff, please.

A woman with no sex drive cannot satisfy a man because if a man's wife has no sexual desire for him it is a personal affront. "I love you but don't desire sex with you" is the ultimate oxymoron as far as a man is concerned.

Hey take it from me, in our marriage this was opposite. I was the woman who wanted my man to desire me. I had to get over the fact that IT WAS NOT PERSONAL in order to move on to what we needed to do and communicate about to solve the problem.

you believe a poor sex life can be "blamed" on other marriage problems Perhaps. Bad communication is no ones fault however.


No, it can't be fixed if one spouse simply doesn't feel enough toward the other spouse to conjure up some sexual desire.

This is the bottom line. If a spouse does not care enough then they do not love you enough to be married! Why put up with a spouse who does not love you enough to be married!!!!GEEZE

Bubbles, because when I stood at the alter I took a vow. And I intend to honor that vow. And it is very painful when a S knows that and therefore doesn't care how much damage she does. But my duty is to "love my wife as Christ loved the Church" no matter how much she hurts me.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Sitcoms, commercials and dramas show lots of things that don't happen in real life... GLBT people being accepted for who they are and able to live in peace, cancer being cured, and women getting out of bed in the morning looking coiffed and airbrushed.

IRL, we all have issues, and we have to deal with them. I have a whole 'nother rant on what society does to men! Though you guys at least are the dominant sex and you can pee standing up, so you don't get *as much* sympathy from me.

Yes, there are women who don't have a sex drive at all - and IMNSFHO, they need to see a doctor - medical first to have all their hormone levels checked, and then a psych to figure out what their underlying issues are. These women get married because they want a husband and family, and some manage to do the SF thing ok because they love their H. Some figure they got the ring, they're done except for childbearing. The latter need to get straightened out on their part in the M, again IMNSFHO. It *does* happen, unfortunately.

But more often than those situations, are situations where the W just doesn't feel safe being that vulnerable with her H. (Of course then we're back to the needing a psych or IC in a lot of cases... )

And in even more frequent situations, the M is the root cause of the libido shut down. If you're into astrology at all, I'm a double Scorpio. (If you're not into astrology, this supposedly means I'm just shy of being a nympho.) I had a very high sex drive when my H and I started dating. My drive deteriorated with the state of our M. I've also had health issues, but it's really more the M than anything else. H, looking at it from his POV, would only see a W that was hot to trot until he put a ring on it, and then cut him off, because that's how the timing played out. But now that he can see the deterioration of the relationship in relation to the timeline, he sees how the marriage really wasn't the catalyst.

Sex is too complicated an issue to point to one situation and say "it's like this".

Bubbles, your posts are sometimes dangerous to me.

I start to think 'Okay, when I get back into shape, I hope that my husband has a renewed interest in sex... (although he wasn't interested when I was cute and fit). If not, then maybe he doesn't love me, and I should just leave him!'

But I can't do that to my kids. We can have a good partnership, but it's not especially fulfilling to me without sf and affection.

Bah.

Well I see the point of you marriage partners with children or religious reasons to stay together. I do not agree with staying together if you accidently marry the wrong partner or marry a celebate partner.

Hey, if your spouse does not care enough for you, you SHOULD leave them! They do not really love you! Why raise kids with them. Why put up with them long term. Send them to "spouse training camp" in order to have them taught how to really care for someone they claim to...and should.... care about.

It took ALL the love my husband and I had for each other to solve our sexual issues. It was not easy to do. These problems are solved now! It can be done with a lot of love.

I guess if a person does not know how to love another person, or something, then nothing can be solved.

OP - Have you read anything I've said? I feel like you aren't reading my posts...

I was oh so confident in the beginning of our M, and yes as the refusals continued my confidence in EVERYTHING dropped. If I was unable AT ALL to get the one thing in M that I was expecting the most, how could I possibly succeed in anything else. Trial after trial wore me down.

I have finally figured out that it was her and there is no going back! I think even the way I walk and interact with people shows that I'm gaining that confidence back, and one of the reasons OW picked up on.

Soo, I have read all your posts. I think your best point has to do with a woman not having confidence in herself. And no amount of compliments from hubby can change that. My wife of 18 years still looks great. Looks 10 years younger than she is. Cute, nice body. But she will have none of it. I can tell her that 4,000 times and never say anything negative. Doesn't matter. Her mind is made up and my opinion is irrelevant.

It is always best to start from the working hypothesis that fixing the marriage will fix the (lack of) sex. Every higher libido spouse should make their best effort, 100% fully committed to the process, to eliminate LBs and meet their spouse's ENs. LA's advice is excellent to uncover "hidden" LBs, often in the form of DJs disguised beneath assumptions, expectations, "shoulds", etc.

However, it is also true that in many cases, eliminating LBs and meeting ENs will not lead to sex. As TAC points out, many people have FOO or abuse issues that prevent them from connecting with their own sexuality. In many of those cases, absent IC and a willingness to address painful topics, no amount of good behavior on the high libido spouse's part will lead an unrecovered spouse to provide mutually enthusiastic sex.

Every HLS must decide for themselves when they have expended as much time and energy as they are willing to spend improving the marriage without reciprocation in the manner they desire. There is no quick and efficient way to determine in advance whether success is possible or how close or far you may be from achieving it.

I agree with the women who have posted that it does not appear that swanman has attempted the process yet. So he should not be pessimistic of his chances for success. I also agree with the women who think that maybe MUD's prior misbehavior or lack of self-confidence has eroded his wife's desire for him.

On the other hand, I agree with MUD that it is also possible that his wife has unresolved issues she refuses to address and that his making additional efforts to woo her may be pointless. No way to know until they invent the mind reading machine and we can see what is actually going on inside her head. Some here may feel that uncertainty behooves him to keep trying. I am too mixed up myself to form an opinion either way.

Swan,

Ask for what you really want...for your wife to work on her insecurities because they are harming your marriage...keeping it from thriving.

Tell her you know she is able to do this, that you support her using all the resources available out there...because her LB is robbing your love bank and that's important to know.

Believing your opinion is irrelevant to her robs more from your love bank...so mind what you're doing, too. Your job is to be alert to its balance, to see what you can do, within your control, to protect it.

Be concerned for her physical health...ask her to include in her search for libido, to have her levels checked, ask what might help, because they can affect, too...offer to do counseling with the Harleys here on MB...tell her how deeply you're concerned...and then tell list how well she meets your other top ENs...even those you don't seem to have because she's met them so well for years (like Attractive Spouse).

Balance...not manipulation. Radical Honesty and a willingness to revisit this issue once a week, for updates and further discussion. The way she views herself is pertinent to the marriage...tell her it hurts you when she puts herself down because you cherish her.

Share more...stop thinking it's forever, always, never...focus on the here and now and ask her to come up with a plan of action for both of you to address this, from love.

Stop telling...begin owning, sharing, and check your own stuff...true intimacy is knowing and sharing your stuff...not to get HER to do anything...to do your part in your marriage.

And do not do that which you will resent. Speak of what you do, as you do it, if you're acting to hopefully get her to think/believe/perceive/feel something different. Share more.

You can do this. You're a committed, strong, loving and reliable man. Don't coach yourself into failure.

LA

Who here has ever written a business plan? A marketing plan? An operational plan?

::looks around to see how many hands are raised::

Well my hand is up, so I'll answer my own question.

When you write a business plan, you start by stating your mission statement, goal or objective.

Everything else falls out of that.

Your strategies are your means of reaching your goal.

Your tactics are things you do to complete your strategies.


So the goal here is to have a mutually fulfilling, satisfying and romantic marriage, right? When I counseled w/ SH the first time, the question he asked me right out of the box was: what was my/our goal?


All of the MB principles are the strategies and tactics to achieve that goal. As others have said repeatedly here, you can't cherry pick the program. It all works together. So you can't single out SF and say it is unlike any other EN. For that matter, you can't really expect to only meet ENs and maybe not LB and expect your marriage to improve either. What about UA? And setting aside a set amount of time each week, as Harley suggests, to discuss relationship issues?

Honesty (PORH)

Agreement (POJA)

They all work together. Take one away and the others don't "work" as well.

Dr. Harley believes that if you provide all ENs of your spouse, SF will take care of itself. A lot of the women here seem to agree with that. I don't. I have seen too many marriages where the wives were perfectly happy with large incomes, nice homes, vacations, clothes, family activities, dates... and their husbands got tired of waiting on the SF to return to their marriage.

I think you have to work on eliminating all your own LBs, and improving your attention to your spouse's ENs all the time. You have to move them all forward together.

I guess I don't see a healthy desire for SF as being something a man receives, but something he is trying to give. It is part of affection. Not only are a lot of women less interested in sex, they are less interested in affection, conversation and recreation.

BINGO! Some mistake this for the "need meeting" program and ignore everything else. That is like driving a car with ONE WHEEL and then wondering why the car won't move. This is a complete program that must be implemented in order to achieve the GOAL of Marriage Builders: romantic love. One can "meet needs" and avoid lovebusters but never come to fall in love because they don't practice radical honesty, POJA, or spend 15 hrs of undivided attention. As they tell us in AA, "half measures availed us nothing." It is the same with Marriage Builders. In my experience, the couples who have the happiest marriages have worked this program in its entirety; many of them going to the MB weekend, counseling with the Harleys or doing the online program.


here

That's interesting, but from my observations, people don't always start out here in a humbled or open state of mind, eager to learn and ready to hit the ground running with the program. Lots of times they're mad as hell and ready to walk or are very disillusioned and withdrawn and feeling trapped in their situations.

I think ideally they need to come here ready to do the work, but lots of times they come here seeking cyber pats on the head, validation, and approval to leave their situations. We've had people come here for months on end, very determined to hold onto their negative state of mind and argue their cases over and over and over again. Sometimes they finally get it; sometimes they don't.

The determining factors are going to vary - what's at stake, how old is the relationship, any children, finances, religion, committment, love, etc. And you'll always have those who have adapted to the quagmire they're in enough that when it gets down to the nitty gritty of actually changing for the better, it's just a little bit too uncomfortable, and they'd rather stop complaining (or not) than actually do the work.

I've been here for years, myself. I think at least 18 months more than my sign on shows, actually, as there was some sort of crash back then too. I've gotten a lot out of the program, though I've never gone to a weekend or done the online program. I've printed off the questionnaires and done a lot of reading and conversing. I've read the articles and the concepts and gleaned a new sense of appreciation. My eyes are now open to what others have experienced and are experiencing in their marriages. I have tools now. I know what to do. I know our marriage isn't a freakish thing from outer space. I know I'm not alone...that in an of itself has been a huge comfort to me.

Happy New Year to you, too!

lol - and why, pray tell, do you think I'm talking about you, Hold? (elbowing you fondly) In all sincerity, Hold, I do wish you a happy healthy (in all sense of the word) 2010.

(I honestly didn't have any one particular poster in mind when I wrote that in my post before. I just know that many of us have btdt. Some of us have been able to get past it, and some of us haven't. Those who have, I honestly think are happier or at least have more peace in their lives.)

Once we can get past the woah-is-me mentality and the need for validation, the real work can begin.

I agree, and sadly many will come here and talk the problem to death rather than taking decisive action. People come here looking for help, after all. And that help is this program. They are sitting on a gold mine and they don't see it. Those are the ones I would like to encourage to actually USE the program. Using the program in its entirety will make an amazing difference. Talking about specific problems when there is no plan in place rarely avails anything, except a more angry poster.

I agree with the idea to implement the full MB program. And I like the idea of taking decisive action. Just realize that in many cases implementing the program and taking decisive action requires going to Plan B. Many of us are unwilling to go there. I think that is the hangup for many posters. When Plan A fails, not everyone is willing to take the next step. And even Dr. Harley will admit that Plan A, by itself, often fails.

I thought Plan A and Plan B were designated options for affair situations? I guess I need to read up more on that; it's always been a bit of a gray area for me.

hold, when I refer to the Marriage Builders program, I mean the basic concepts. You are talking about a situation where one partner will not engage no matter what. I am talking about the standard, garden variety bad marriage we see around here. The rule is a) bad marriage and b) at least one reluctant spouse. Dr Harley has said that most couples that show up for the MB weekend come with one reluctant spouse.

What Dr Harley says about Plan As effectiveness is that only 15% of AFFAIRS end in Plan A. Plan A and Plan B are for affair situations normally.

I don't know your situation, but have you gone to a MB weekend? Or counseled with the Harleys?

Soolee, you are right, but Dr Harley wrote a newsletter about situations where there is no affair but one spouse refuses to meet the others needs. He recommends Plan B in those situations. Go read the newsletter, When to Call it Quits, part 1.

I am not a good example. I counselled with a Harley-trained coach for 2 years. After 6 years of MC with a variety of counsellors trained in other disciplines or systems. Failed miserably. Now I console myself with secondary payoffs.

As Soolee says, I am comfortably ensconced in my quagmire with no intention of taking uncomfortable action to improve myself, let alone my marriage. I am not getting my needs met, but as long as my wife isn't either, I am satisfied to maintain the status quo. Not a very optimistic or ambitious program. Nor one I would suggest to others. But I am done with trying to improve this marriage. And I am not interested in moving on to the next one until my kids leave home. Until then, I would rather talk the situation to death.

I agree with your repeated suggestions to implement the full program and to attend a MB weekend. I agree they are the best shot for most couples. I just disagree with your implications that in all cases it will result in a happy marriage for both spouses. I agree with Retread and TAC. No program has a 100% success rate. Not even MB.

I 2nd that and agree with LA, and ML. I do come on here to whine and rant. I've counseled and tried the MB, but when one person is already happy and thinks you should be too because they are having their needs met, you're stuck.

Things are getting better in our M, but it's because it's obvious I'm not even attempting to meet my Ws EN and do not pretend to work on the M either. I think this has gotten her attention better than anything else. Could it backfire on me? Possibly, but when you're at this point, you really don't care now do you?

I really do believe in the MB principles and yes OH, I've done business plans before (try doing one to get an SBA, they'll scrutinize it to death) and you can't cherry pick. I would love to implement the whole enchilada, but in my M it's all onesided because she is already having her EN met. Why should she try? She thinks the reason I am not satisfied is because of me. Well I have to partially agree because yes I'm not getting my EN met.

I think what a lot of the men are trying to say is:

Wife- satisfied and getting EN met and happy in the M.

Husband- not getting the EN SF met and not happy or satisfied with M.

Wife- It's H problem, not mine.

Husband- It's our M problem.

Wife- No, it's not "I'm happy".

So if W is happy and EN are met for her why is there no EN. Women on this board say it's something else even deeper. The men on here are saying that lobbing it in as just another EN and that if M was really devoid of LB, and EN were really met SF would happen. We are saying in our M that is not the case. IMO it's like saying Plan A always works in A situation. No it does not, but some how some of you are saying that eliminating LB, 15 hours/wk, meeting their EN needs works all the time. We are saying it does not. We are saying we have worked onesided very hard to implement and be the leading example and there was ABSOLUTELY no reciprocation, only pure taking/receiving by S.

ML has said they are renters and eventually it will be time to quit. I agree. I'm trying to be responsible in raising my kids. My wife and I have a great relationship minus the SF, so I will not be "suffering" it out until they are gone. In between now and then she has a great length of time to heal our M. Like Holding said, I'm done as well. I'm exhausted from anticipating a break through that never came and it's completely up to her. I am resolved either way.

Actually what he claims is that his program works in 90% of the cases. That is an amazing success rate. There is no such thing as a program that has a 100% success rate so that would be an unrealistic standard to place on any program - a standard perhaps devised to avoid doing anything about a bad situation.

I will state again that those that actually USE the program have happy marriages. There are many of us here. Unfortunately, others here have never used the program and some don't even OWN a MB book. Their marriages reflect that fact, too.

ML,

I agree, however what do you do with the S that isn't just reluctant, they just will not do it or they want to cherry pick? My wife loved the UA and the POJA and used it to manipulate.

Why would he write a newsletter, When to call it quits?

So raise your kids and then move on.

Don't warn your wives of this plan, and have a fun time wondering what could have happened had you sat your wives down and had an O&H talk warning them ahead of time.

Time for them to further their educations and increase their earning potentials if nothing else...

Yeah...they might have divorced you and faught you for sole custody if you'd warned them. Then again, maybe they would have done some inner reflecting and gotten on board. Guess you guys will never know...

Mud, when I refer to success rate, I am talking about couples who participate. The MB program cannot force someone to participate against their will. Your marriage is bad because your wife won't participate, not because there is anything wrong with MB.

Even so, I will point out that Dr Harley said that most couples who show up at his weekend seminar have at least one reluctant couple. In your case, your wife has absolutely no motivation to change. She knows you won't do anything about her behavior towards you.

It is like going on a diet. The diet won't work unless I use it.

Why don't you follow the advice in that newsletter? The outcome of that situation was a happy marriage; isn't that the best thing for your kids?

I was alot like your wife in my last marriage in that I REFUSED to meet my H's needs. He ended up having an affair and divorcing me over it, [which is where you are headed] but if he had separated from me it would have woken me up.

Soolee, I love, love, love your sig line!!!

Thanks.

Soolee,

I did tell her in the fall of 2008 and that is when she sort of woke up, then in May of '09 we were still going through the cycle (although it was shorter in between), so I registered here and The Marriage Bed (christian my a$$). I needed to find a way to deal with my resentment if she is truly changing. We are still going through the cycle, but frequency is up in between.

ML,

Yes, I've let my EPs/boundaries down, but you guys will be happy to know that they are coming back up. I am feeling much better, but still leaving it up to her.

She knows I will be leaving if it doesn't change. Like I said, it may backfire on me, but at this point I still don't care. She came to me a few days ago and talked about how her mom/dad/ and brother act and recognized that in herself and appologized. She cannot hear it from someone else, me especially so I have to leave it up to her to find out what she does and how it damages us.

ML,

Didn't know your past, sorry for that.

Happy New Year!! Stay away from the ametuers night out!

themud - I'm glad you warned her and sorry for my assumptions. As a woman who has been a sahm for many years, without a college degree, I can appreciate that you did that. Kudos.

Why won't you go to a MB weekend? Hope is not a plan, themud.

Wife has been warned several times. I see no need to repeat the warning. If she chooses to think that the warning has somehow "expired", her decision not to ask for clarification.


Wife was repeatedly told by me and by MCs to further education, become employed and prepare for time when kids will leave home. Her decision not to. Just last night when she complained about lacks of vacations, I told her to get a job and pay for it. I got a tirade about how she drives the kids to every activity and did I really want to have to do more of that. I said "yes, just as I will handle chauffeur duties in a few weeks when you are visiting your dad during his surgery". Sarcastic "yeah, like you could handle that all the time".


Do you see this as an UNlikely outcome? 60-70% of divorces are filed by the wife. Why would an involved father want to risk those odds?


Exactly. I will never know what it is like to drive my D home from swim practice to her mom's place and watch her go inside alone. I will never know what it is like to wonder who Mrs. Hold is bringing home while teenage daughter is living with her. There are many things I will never know of which I am happy to remain ignorant.

Is it possible that Mrs. Hold would change if I instituted Plan B? Yes. Likely? No one knows for sure, but I doubt it. Even Harley says Plan B "works" to reconnect the couple less than half the time.

You have no way of knowing that. Maybe it would have woken you up. Maybe you would have decided it proved he really was the undeserving jerk you thought he was (after all, you must have refused to meet his needs for a reason).

I can understand that after enduring the pain of his A, you wish he had warned you. However, absent the pain of the A, there is no way to know whether his saying "I am outta here" would have lead to the same internal reassessment on your part.

In the end, I am happy you found MB and have created a happy marriage. You are an inspriation for people here. And we need more cheerleaders encouraging posters to apply the entire MB system.

Hold we've had this conversation before where you told me you would not have this conversation with your wife for the express reasons that you're afraid she'll walk away and take the kids with her. I do not remember ever reading or hearing that you've told your wife you're leaving in 6 years if the marriage doesn't change and she doesn't start fulfilling your ENs. I must be missing something - likely from years ago before I started following your posts.

I can see how staying for years after initially speaking of leaving, without mentioning it again now and then to reiterate your intentions, would quite likely put her in a relaxed state of mind regarding the condition of the marriage. Perhaps that's where you want her though. That way you can keep an eye on her, know right where her brain is, and feel safe in knowing your kids are with you. Understandable. At least this way you know what's going on.

I had a slightly different situation TM. A spouse who was also unhappy but refused to try MB. Even so, I think the tactic I used might work for either situation. Harley would say Plan B. I couldn't move out on my own (finances), so I filed D papers and moved to the couch. A line in the sand. Rescinding either necessiated he met my requirement.

We had the conversations back in the pring of 2005 when we were getting ready to stop MCing with our MB-trained coach. Mrs. Hold said something like "he is going to leave me when the kids are grown, isn't he". The coach said something like "he didn't say that". I stopped her and said something like "no one can predict the future, but that is the most likely result. I am unhappy. My needs are not being met. For now I want to stay with my kids. After they are gone, the situation will be very different. My choice to stay may be different as well."

About 18 months later (around the time of S15's Bar Mitzvah) we scheduled a "status report" session with our former coach. I asked if there was anything Mrs. Hold was willing to change that she had not been willing to change in 2005. She said no. I said something like "then my remarks at the end of coaching still stand."

I asked her the same question about a year later (just over a year ago). She again said no.

As you suggest, I am not interested in having these conversations frequently or more explicitly. If she is living in reality, she knows I have checked out of our marriage. After 8 years of MC, all my complaints have been openly and honestly communicated. I have given zero indication that any of those issues are resolved. In fact, I have made a point of reiterating that they are not. For example, when I told her that I will no longer be initiating or requesting sex, I explained "that doesn't mean that I don't want sex, or don't miss sex, or don't resent you for not providing sex, it just means I am done asking and being rejected, and yes I will hold it against you if it doesn't happen." So I don't see how she can think our problems are resolved.

But many people choose to live in denial. Myself included. Still, I do not expect that I will regret not having been more explicit. I am not playing the lottery on which adult male my daughter lives with during her teenage years. I am doing what I can to make sure it is me and only me. That is worth paying whatever price in terms of my personal satisfaction.

Okay Hold. I was basing what I said on an earlier post. I admit to not following your posts from the beginning. I'm really not sure what to say at this point. I'm sorry about your situation, and I hope the next 6 years of your life are not miserable. I hope you can find some joy while you wait this out, and I hope that you have the courage to move forward and do what's right for yourself when the time comes.

Actually, I never thought he was a "undeserving jerk." But I know that a separation would have woken me up. [I am a better judge of this than you, hold] And even if it didn't, which I doubt, he would have been better off.

I really did want the marriage but felt that he would tolerate my abuse, no matter what. That belief fueled my abusive attitude. Therefore, I had no motivation to change. If I believed he was willing to dump me I would have taken heed and changed. In fact, getting dumped showed me that no one was going to take my crap unconditionally. Like Dr Harley has said over and over again, "unconditional love" that permits abuse leads to an ENTITLEMENT mentality.


Bingo! This describes my situation exactly. And it describes the situation of many folks here who tolerate abuse and neglect year after year. My husband's tolerance of my neglect and abuse gave me completely unrealistic expectations of entitlement. And the more crap my H took, the more abusive I became and the more respect I lost for him.


Thanks hold. I have been richly blessed in my life by finding Marriage Builders. When you have a great marriage, it changes the entire quality of your life. For someone like me to have a great marriage is a true miracle. I want other people to have this too; that is why I am so passionate and committed to this forum. MB is completely different from any other program I have ever seen out there; it is a GOLD MINE. If people would only USE it. And sadly, many here don't even bother. To me, that is like going to AA meetings drunk and complaining about my poor lot in life but never using the program. I don't get that.

Hold, why not try the REAL DEAL? Steve Harley is the absolute best in the business, IMO. The most comprehensive path, of course, would be a MB weekend. And if your wife didn't get on board, Dr Harley and his marriage coaches, Kim or Sandy, would work with her one on one. I have seen these guys and Dr Harley get through to clients in a way that just amazed me. What attracted my H to this program was POJA and the end of lovebusters.

A MB trained coach is not the same as the real deal.

Can I ask why she would change? Is there any motivation? In the absence of any motivation, I can't imagine she want to change. This is one thing that MB is good at, selling the concept of CHANGE to a reluctant spouse. They sold my husband [current 10 year marriage] and I have seen them sell numerous other reluctant spouses. Dr Harley sold my H at the MB weekend by teaching about POJA and lovebusters.

[T/J alert, with apologies in advance]

Hold, RE: the chauffering convo - here's a thought (handle it gently - I don't have many of those :D).

Maybe approach Mrs. Hold with something like, "I was thinking about what you said. I want you to know I appreciate the time and effort you put forth hauling the kids around.

On the other hand, you apparently don't believe I am capable of handling the kids transportation needs. I apologize if I have created these doubts, or if I have overburdened you with the responsibility.

To prove I am in fact capable, I'll make you a deal: if you get a job and contribute to the household finances in a manner in which we both know you are capable, I, unless physically incapacitated or unavailable, will provide for the kids' transportation needs entirely. As long as you remain so employed, I will provide for those transportation needs until both children out of high school. You'll never have to worry about it again."

Obviously, that's not suitable specific wording, but I think it gets the point across.

She introduced the topic; perhaps it's time to call her bluff. C'mon; she left herself open for that one.

I dunno; whaddaya think?

[letting thread down off the jack]

[jack is stuck under the thread]

Hold, that, of course, assumes that you can actually fulfill that promise, if you were to offer it.

[there, the jack is clear. I hate jacking up threads on soft ground]

ML,

I truly think that if I were to ask for separation, my wife would simply shrug her shoulders and blame it on me.

The funny thing is that you mentioned entitlement. I am fighting that feeling because of the lack of ENs and want to have IB. The thoughts swing high to both sides of great hope to disappointmnet.

I think Soolee had mentioned Ws being unhappy, but that's what is so disturbing. My W says she is happy and acted/acts sidelined when I mention I am not happy and we haven't had SF in 4 weeks or not enought etc. I can only stare at here with bewilderment when she says she's shocked I'm not happy and she is. Duh! She's getting her EN met and tosses mine aside and is put out by my requests, then asks what is the minimum she can do!

Mud here is another perspective. Lets say your wife was unselfish and a wonderful woman. She treated you very well in every way. She was fun to be around and had a great sense of humor. Instantly you relaxed around her. You looked forward to coming home to see her every day and sleeping with her every night.

Let us say all this were true. Then, i believe if there was a little shortage in the sex department on her part, you would not feel as bad as you do now about it.

Also, if there was a sex shortage, you two could joke about it and plan some good lovemaking or in other ways be flexible to solve the problem so both are happy.

What I am saying is for you to PRETEND THE SHORTAGE OF SEX IN YOUR MARRIAGE IS THE ONLY PROBLEM. EVERYTHING ELSE IS PERFECT.

If your wife was not an avoider or a game player or selfish, this sex issue:

1. Would be no big thing
2. Would be easily worked out so both were happy

I maintain it is a spouse's innate selfishness and wanting to use the other spouse for whatever, that causes the lack of sex issues to be glaringly, horningly..... horrible.

These spouses are terrible who are selfish and used to getting thier way and who use hostility to keep the other spouse off balance as a way to keep control. If you have to walk in your own home and wonder what mood the wife or husband is in..and worry about walking on the eggshells, that is no way to live sex or no sex. ''

Might as well be in a prison.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think we all just fit into "good person" "bad person" opposite categories. For all my encouragement about this issue, my marriage isn't perfect in this area either, but it can't just be boiled down to "my H sucks." I don't think seeing it that way would help my M at all.

No that is not what I am saying at all. Lur, your husband DOES NOT SUCK! And this is primarily why YOU LOVE HIM DESPITE THE SEX ISSUES AND YOU ARE WILLING TO GO THE EXTRA MILE TO WORK THEM OUT.

People who have numerous problems with the spouse besides sex cannot work the sexual issues out. They cannot work anything out.

YOU CAN! Luckily.

If you have a spouse so selfish and controlling and difficult and you are not getting any sex from them, there are a lot of problems here, not just the sex.

If you have a spouse who is loving, caring, unselfish, and great in many ways but not perfect, a little "lack of sex" can be overcome or worked out. I did it in my marriage. Because my husband is pretty wonderful, I was able to spend three years working on my lack of sex issue. It worked out and we both compromised.

Had he been very selfish or difficult in other ways, the sex issues would be impossible to work out.

Just feeling really horrible today. I can't understand why she would want to be with me this long if I was so horrible as not not want SF. She says it's great when we have it, but it must not be that great.

Yeah, there are things. She can't stick to her obligations or do what she says and I probably LB her when I try to make her accountable to them... That's such an on going thing for her I don't think will ever change because she feels it's her right as a person or woman to change her mind on a dime with out saying boo to me or anyone else. It just kills me, so don't know if thes is just AH or a LB of hers. I probably don't take enough initiation with the kids, but I fear criticism when I use to. I love her and feel so alone at the same time. I think she has a lack of respect for the men she is close to, but it seems like she has a ton of respect for other men, like at kids sports and school. I wish she would respect me like that.

Sorry for letting this out. No, I have no one else who is male or female to talk to or don't feel comfortable talking to. Just down today.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Just feeling really horrible today. I can't understand why she would want to be with me this long if I was so horrible as not not want SF. She says it's great when we have it, but it must not be that great.

As my husband used to tell me: "It is not you, it is me" and "I like sex when we have it">

Mud, it is NOT YOU. But you are close to finding the key to this.

Listen to her when she says, "I likes sex when we have it".

This is the key and the answer. Many women are this way exactly. It is hard for most women to GET INTO SEX. For so many reasons.

But, if you gently lead her into sex, she will love it! You have to do this and take the inititive. Do not ask, just start touching and kissing like a romance novel. Bring her some food or drink to set the mood. Remove her clothes like an "actor in a movie" does. If she moves away, dont give up yet, start gently massaging her to help her relax. Soon she will be turned on. Then she will want sex with you.

MUD, Dont give up yet!!! On this. I tell you you can lead these problems into being solutions. Talking helps but not always. Helping her relax will really help. Being sexy and confident (even though your confidence has been dashed) will really help.

You can change this!

I hope I didn't sound whiny and argumentative Bubbles. Just ignore me today. I cooked my H a hamburger patty without realizing we had no bread, and then I started crying about it - hormonal women!!

I think it was ML who posted a quote from Dr. Harley saying that he rarely has to *fix* sexual issues for couples. By helping them fix their marriages, so that they have ALL the tools they need for communication, honesty, happiness, etc., the sexual problems usually go away.

I always thought that sex issues were usually a symptom of a problem....not a problem in and of itself.

Mud, my desire for SF can really swing like a pendulum. LB kill it faster than anything (wish I had known that years ago...). But I am also my own worst enemy. I can't really explain it but I can get myself worked up and agitated about a lot of really minor things and then it plays out in my pushing him away. Perhaps, if we are able to fully embrace the MB program and work the entire program so that we have great communication and I'm not hesitant to tell him how I'm feeling, then I wouldn't play these games with myself.

Since H's conversation with Steve, he has really worked to cut out the AOs. What a difference just that makes for me! He's also stepped up on DS around the house.

There are still the major issues such as the job/FS, which is right now my #1 EN, and the drinking issue which remains to be worked out, but I was doing this dance with myself expecting that he FULLY step up to the plate before I could give in return. Then I brought myself up short and said "what am I doing? It's obvious SF and Affection are two of his very top needs....why don't I do my best to try to fulfill those?

We will still have obstacles to overcome. I don't think our sex drives are THAT far apart, but he is most definitely the higher need spouse. He'd be happy with daily/even twice daily sometimes...and I'm happy with 3-4x/week. These are averages. And he really takes my "not tonight honey" so personally, though I see a change in him there, too since he's spoken with SH.

I don't know what to tell you Mud. I know I'm not your wife. I don't know if you really have worked the program. The word 'entitlement' does not apply for either of you.

You might not feel as bad, but it still would be lousy.
Sex is the currency of marriage. Having a marriage without sex is like having a business without cash flow. The store might look neat, the merchandise shiny, the clerks polite and attentive, but the business is headed for a shut down. Without regular cash flow, it is not a business, but just a hobby.

Women might be able to feel loved just from having financial security, engaging conversation, a good father to their children, and help around the house, without affection or a sexual relationship - but men don't feel loved when their wives hardly ever want to make love.

Retread, the store analogy makes a lot of sense. And I have to wonder, at what point - after a time of no cash flow - does it become almost impossible to motivate onesself to keep the store shiny. I mean, if there is no "business" happening in the business....what's the point of polishing the shelves? I don't mean to sound like a downer, but the premise usually seems to be, if this, then sex. Is there anything wrong with - every once in awhile - thinking if sex, then this? What I mean is, instead of thinking, if you meet this and this and this, I'll feel like having sex, what if someone thinks, if you could just give yourself to me for half an hour, I would feel more like doin this and this and this? I'm just thinkng out loud.

Luri, I think that like anything else in marriage, it's a two way street. Harley says that both partners need to be dedicated to the care and feeding of the marriage--and remain focused on what makes their spouse happy and fulfilled. That means meeting ENs and not LBing. So the lower drive spouse IMO *should* try his/her best to meet the higher drive spouses need. Conversely the higher drive spouse needs to try his/her best to meet the top needs of the other spouse.

In theory and on paper, it seems that if this is being done on a consistent basis, with complaints aired honestly (PORH) and decisions reached jointly (POJA), then there shouldn't be long periods of unhappiness. I'm sure even the Harleys have arguments but they resolve them before they start to fester.

For females, having sex is usually very enjoyable when you are in love. My H has a high sex drive - higher than mine - but I am in love with him so I enjoy meeting that need. My favorite thing to do is to FLASH him.

In my last marriage, I was not in love with my H and I RESENTED his constant whining about wanting sex. It made me MORE AVERSE. I resented each and every second of SF with him and it got to where the aversion expanded to just SEEING HIM. I felt an aversion to him in every way.

Both of these situations demonstrate why this program can't be cherry picked. If one uses the ENTIRE PROGRAM, the result is that both are in love. When one is IN LOVE, they enjoy having sex.


here

themud, did you answer my question about going to the MB weekend? There is one coming up the end of January.

Ourhouse, Dr Harley has mentioned that he and Joyce never have arguments. NEVER. But they do disagree on things every day. They use the POJA and the negotiation tactics he has outlined here. POJA was very, very hard for my H and I at first, but now it comes effortlessly. Now, we have standing agreements on most contentious issues so it doesn't come up anymore. For example, we rarely disagree about restaurants anymore [formerly a huge battle ground] because we have a short list that we both like.

We also have a standard in place that we NEVER EVER go to a restaurant the other dislikes. If one dislikes it, it is OFF the list. It is never brought up again. Chinese is off our list because it ruins my diet, and Mexican is off the list because he hates spicy food.

Ourhouse, I am so happy that you are coaching with Steve Harley and digging into this program the way you are. I wish you the very best in your marriage! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{OURHOUSE}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

OH, our experience was alot like this in that one lovebuster led to another. And when they were eliminated, it also had a similar domino effect. For example, I would trigger his angry outbursts with my independent behavior. His AO would lead to disrespectful judgments and then I couldn't stand him for a week, much less have SF with him or meet his need for RC. When I eliminated my IB, he stopped his AO's, which stopped my DJ's.

When the lovebusters stopped I felt much more inclined to meet his SF and RC need, and he felt much more inclined to meet my need for affection, admiration and DS.

They are all so intertwined that I understand perfectly why Dr Harley says that when you fix the marriage, the SF problem usually fixes itself.

You are so right on ML. My H used to complain that I never touched him during the day. He used to ask...why not just a gentle touch as you're walking by...maybe a kiss on the head or the cheek..etc. Even though he has a very high need for SF, I think his need for Affection is almost as high.

But with all the LBs going on, I couldn't bring myself to do what he was asking for. And of course, he feels angry and resentful, etc, etc....and we are on the same merry go-round that you and your husband found yourselves on.

I am still withholding judgement and still don't know what our final outcome will be....because I *am* willing now to walk away from this marriage if I can't be happy. But for the first time, I do see a light at the end of the tunnel.

ETA: I should also add for those reading here...just ONE hour on the phone with Steve enlightened H more than months and months of traditional marriage counseling. And the same goes for my experience with Steve as well.

ETA #2: I would love to attend a MB weekend. Right now it's not in the cards for us financially---we can barely afford the phone counseling. But it's on my "list"!

This is exactly where I think it will end up. The spouse who is being denied affection is not likely to just walk out one day, to the total surprise of the partner who was happily having all their own ENs met.

It is most likely that he (since I am talking about men here) will begin to feel used. One way to stop being used is to stop doing things for The User, even if you feel like doing them. Next, you stop doing the things she likes. If she likes a nice house, you stop taking care of it, etc. Then you can bet things get into a cycle of unmet ENs and LBs.

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? I like your analogy, Retread - the whole currency thing.

Just wanted you to know that I've become far more acutely aware of my sexuality (or lack thereof) since reading what some of the men here are going through, and if nothing else it has given me some food for thought in terms of how I take care of myself, how I dress, how I treat myself, and how I feel about myself, because I firmly believe that poor self image has a lot to do with this issue, and I realize that the domino effect here can be devastating.

Since becoming a member here, I've learned just how tenuous marriage is and how very dependent its strength is on the effort we put into it. I am hoping this year is a better year than last for all of us in this department.

I second that Soolee. I can more clearly see how my behavior applies to the domino effect. And how quickly a love bank can be drained---and how much more slowly it builds back up again.

yeah...it's a lot easier to fall into the hole than it is to climb back out.

Here's a perfect example. And it does affect sexual desire, so it's on topic for this thread.

H talked to SH shortly before Christmas. Now there are a LOT of issues in my marriage, as you all know...and they're not all going to get ironed out at once. Didn't take us two weeks to get to this place; it's going to take longer than two weeks to get out of it.

But since that convo with SH, he's bought into the essentials of the program and I think he sees (perhaps even better than I at this point), how HIS behavior affects everyone around him including his wife, and how it is HIS responsibility to preserve the care and feeding of my love for him.

So in that regard, he has really worked to cut out the AOs and the DS around the house has increased tenfold.

At first, I remained in my little shell, not trusting and not wanting to really give much back. But we both need to work this program if it's going to work and he is obviously trying very hard in two areas that he felt made a difference to me (we haven't shared LB and EN questionnaires yet, per SH). So I needed to step up to the plate and start addressing his ENs.

Slowly, over the course of the two weeks, we went from being hostile, to civil, to pleasant, to actually interacting with each other again (conversation) and back towards intimate relating to each other I'm not speaking of SF here...just the intimacy of husband/wife relationship in general...sharing thoughts, hopes and dreams..something we had not done in a long time.

And yesterday, I realized that my love bank actually had a positive balance in it and when I thought about H, I actually got a nice feeling inside, instead of a pit in the bottom of my stomach.

And last night at dinner, there was a tense exchange with daughter (he/she tussled over an issue) and with S15 (he/I tussled over an issue) and a general lack of good communication between H and I over same so that when he said something to me in a particular tone of voice, instead of asking him for clarification, I *assumed* (hate that word) that he was angry.

I withdrew and was sullen the rest of the night and woke up angry even, this morning. All the deposits in the lovebank were GONE!

Then I decided to talk about it...just sticking to how I was feeling...NOT talking about his actions, assuming his feelings, etc.,

And we cleared the air. And I realized how much my thoughts (stinkin thinkin, actually) influenced my actions last night.

I'm still not happy at the way he treated our daughter..I thought he was harsh. But I was able to communicate that in a safe and non-accusatory manner and I suggested if we worked as a team...that we'd be more effective. Daughter pushes his buttons and son pushes mine. If we unite, then perhaps we'll both be less likely to fly off the handle with the kids.

And the lovebank is back in the black this AM. Not quite as high as yesterday's balance before the massive withdrawal though. It's amazing how quickly those deposits can vanish...

Kinda like my checking account!

It's amazing how quickly those deposits can vanish...

Kinda like my checking account!

LOL - I can certainly commiserate with you on that issue.

I also agree with just how touchy that love bank balance can be and how easily it can shift from one end to the other. I would think that's pretty normal for a marriage in recovery. Trust has some say in that, I think. I like to think that with more love bank deposits versus withdrawals (history proving itself), that reflex to expect the worst will not be so automatic or quick.

I'm so happy for you, OH, that things are looking up, btw.

I think how rapidly an LB withdraws from the bank account depends on how we see the LB, and that depends of the context of our relationships.

If someone at work makes fun of you for your hair being messy, but you know they are your friend, you laugh along with them and fix your hair. But if the boss who has not been saying thank you for overtime makes the same comment, you will see it as being mean.

It's the same with marriage. If there is a big thing going wrong, like SF being rare and unenthusiastic, every little snub is going to be magnified. Rude or brusque comments made because someone was in a bad mood are not going to just roll off your back like they would if you knew your spouse really loved you. And one way you know they really love you is enthusiastic SF.

So, I have not read all of the replys to this so if I am covering something someone else already has I will appologise in advance...

To me it seems demeaning to your wife to compare her to a hooker when she has sex with you to make you happy. Do you compare her to a maid because she cleans the house? Or a personal chef when she cooks your dinner?

You should not disregard the act that she is doing out of love for you simply because she may not desire it as much as you do. Have you considered the possible reasons for her low sex drive? Yes there are tons of physical reason that many people have no desire for it but there are also emotional ones.

I know, especially for me, it is difficult to get in the mood when I feel like all my husband wants from me is SF. We have been struggling since my child was born. He spends all his time and attention on him and fails to realize that I am being left out. So the only attention I have gotten from him for about two years now is when he is wanting SF. We are just starting on the lessons here on this site and are working on fixing things (to include affection, admiration and attention) and now that he is aware of my emotional needs things are becoming easier between us.

However I do not want to be compared to a hooker simply because I was having sex with him to make him happy and Im sure your wife does not appreciate it either.

Ajivechick,
It is good that you recognize that things have changed after having a baby. A lot of women are in denial about depression, loss of sex drive, energy, moodiness, etc. A lot of husbands feel pushed aside and, instead of trying to engage and put themselves into the new father role, they withdraw into their personal world of work, hobbies, TV, etc. Mother-in-laws, sisters, and other family members can negative factors in getting in the way an pushing the new father aside.

It is too easy for both husband and wife to do the wrong things, and make the marriage second place in their lives.

Retread,

I have put everything aside for our M. She LB me so many times about things like hobbies and friends (mind you not drunken dorks, but upstanding christian friends who are dedicated to their families as well) that I quit all those things. I managed to work and fulfill her ENs and do the things she asked so we could SF. It never happened over and over. She sees her hypocrisies now and how she's confused the HE77 out of me.

You are right on target. I have stopped unintentionally and intentionally meeting her EN. I am getting to the point more and more that I don't care if we SF or not. My "business" is bankrupt due to the lack of cashflow and I do not care if the shelves are clean the trash is taken out etc.

I am still going through a lull, and know it will pass in a day or so and don't feel this bad maybe but twice a year, weather? Maybe.

Is it unfair to her that every night that goes by longer and longer without SF that is becomes a LB for me?

Ajivechick,

Many women feel as you do, but does your H go on and on about how he needs you to clean the house or cook? I bet he doesn't. I can do my own laundry, hell I can get it done outside the house/marriage, and I can hire a maid outside the house/marriage, should go outside the house/marriage for sex? No, it's not right and that is why many on this thread are frustrated. It's the one need a high sex drive spouse cannot go outside the marriage to get. Yes, we can masturbate and get a release, but wives can go get a job and pay half the bill too. Does that mean my wife is only using me to have food on the table and buy $100 lucky jeans? I can do my own laundry thank you.

Ajivechick, even though I have not posted for a few days, I assume your comment about wives and hookers relates to my comment from some time ago. I think SF is substantively different than any other EN in marriage. There are many things we do for our spouses that are out of a sense of duty, and that is perfectly fine. Earning a living, putting gas in the car, washing clothes and a host of other things are done out of a sense of duty, and in fact do demonstrate love.

SF is very different. It involves emotional commitment and vulnerability that is non-existent in ANY other EN, with the possible exception of conversation. It seems to me that the only thing that makes SF intimate, sacred and special is that both H and W want to be there out of enjoyment of the act and an excited willingness to share at that level. If one or the other spouse is there because they have to be in order to get their ENs met, then sex is being traded as a quid pro quo. I would love to put a romantic spin on that, but I can't. What if my wife were to say, "Sure I'll make love to you. I don't really want to be here, but it is what I have to do in order to get you to talk to me, take good care of the kids and meet my other ENs."?

In that case I am no longer interested in making love. You can sugar coat it all you want, but that is NOT making love. That is having sex in exchange for a good or service that you want. Kinda turns my stomach to think of my wife doing that.

Swanman: Okay, but what if your W had the attitude that she wanted to meet your needs for SF because she knows that it's important to you and she wants to meet your EN's and fill your LB and make you happy? Maybe she isn't "in the mood" as often as you are, but she is still willing to meet that need of yours because she cares about you and wants you to be fulfilled and satisfied? What is so wrong with that?

If there is a lower drive spouse, is it really fair (or even possible) to expect them to be "in the mood" as often as the higher drive spouse? There are many ways to enjoy the act of SF even if one is not "in the mood." It isn't all about hot and heavy passion and the big O. Women at least can enjoy SF on the level of being close to their spouse even if they aren't aroused or excited on a physical level. Why is it so hard for a man to understand that? And what is so wrong about that?

Totally agree, Writer1. Some of the arguments about SF that H and I have are about this. He thinks I should be rarin' to go/hot and heavy 24-7. And I told him it's just not the way I work and he shouldn't compare it to our dating days, early marriage days, etc. And just because I'm not 'rarin to go' doesn't mean I can't be coaxed into it. And maybe I'm not up there at a level 10 on the hot-o-meter with him...maybe I'm at 5 or 6. But 5 or 6 gets me close to him, makes me happy about that, AND makes me happy to be doing something for him.

Not every session has to be a sweaty marathon.

Chances are good that we were originally attracted by physical appearance, admiration, affection, and recreational companionship at the beginning of our relationships, so why can we not look at the priorities of emotional needs as different for a strong marriage versus a good sexual relationship? Why must there be only one list for both?

Isn't it more likely we weren't as attracted sexually by financial support, domestic support, or family committment? In a traditional setting, those things wouldn't be factors until after living together or marriage - generally speaking. Honestly, while getting my bills paid, having my driveway plowed, and doing things for my parents is very much appreciated (I certainly do feel lucky and grateful for that), but those things don't make me feel more womanly, more desirable, or on fire for sex...

I know there are other situations where women are looking for sugar daddies or daddy material, but in a broader sense...I have to wonder why we try to assume there is only one list of priorities to make both things (sexual happiness and marital strength) a reality? Aren't we allowed to be a little more complex than that? I mean...maybe we are expecting the answer to be too cut and dry...too simple.

Bubbles said to get her relaxed and rub her back shoulders, all of that. Don't think I haven't tried a million times. If you can think of it, I've done it. Beach vacations that ended up with her saying, are you done yet?

How about every day affection and admiration without her getting the idea you want something in return? Does she get any of that? Do you have any idea how your wife feels about herself and whether or not she feels desirable? Is there anything you can do about that? Seems natural that she would be most attracted to the person who happens to be with her when she's feeling really good about herself.

We go around this again and again. It is terribly simple. But not universally solvable.

In most relationships, there is a higher drive and lower drive spouse. The cruel reality is that typically the higher drive spouse has to work to "align the stars" to get the lower drive spouse interested. The even crueler reality is that this only works a portion of the time. In many cases, even when the "stars are aligned", the lower drive spouse is not interested in making themselves available.

The goods news is that implementing the full MB system tends to get the stars aligned. So it is always a good idea to implement the MB system as the first cut at a solution. Hopefully that will resolve the problem.

Another common situation is where the low drive is attributable to medical problems, rape, abuse or FOO issues. Solving this requires the lower drive spouse to address the issue and regain connection to their sexuality. Implementing the MB system increases the odds that the lower drive spouse will agree to do so.

When meeting ENs and eliminating LBs doesn't work, the odds get much grimmer. MB tells the high drive spouse to implement Plan B. Which is very disruptive and has a fairly low success rate. Often leading to divorce when it fails.

The key is to implement MB early, before years or decades of mismatch have lead to a huge reservoir of anger, resentment and frustration.

My advice to higher drive spouses: implement MB and make yourself a better spouse.

My advice to lower drive spouses: don't put all the burden on the higher drive spouse. Give those stars a little nudge into alignment from time to time.

As I said before, I agree with the people who spoke about viewing sex as a loving gift. I urge swanman to accept this view.

Soolee,

Yes, I have. I should add that I always thought I was a good conversationalist because I am a listener. When we started the MB principles I found she wanted more talking. The change was almost instant, but she was getting that met from friends and family all day while I was at work. Add to that, when I talked of work (business owner here) she didn't want to heare ANYTHING that was negative, or ANY of my concerns or worries. It either had to be flowers and rainbows or it LB her, so it took a while to get that. The affection wasn't too much of a problem. She couldn't really complain about DS because I was already there.

Yes if you can think of something I've done it, and not just for the day, week, or month. I worked very hard at making permanent changes for the better and I can say arrogantly now that I would make a high drive woman a great husband.

Do I accept her when she will do it in love because she knows I need it. Yes, and I appreciate her for it and awkwardly thank her in my afterglow! I don't expect it hot and heavy everytime. I just want my confidence back and she does too, but does will not acknowledge that she needs to be a participator in getting that back. I could so easily destroy her confidence in her business in a heart beat, but unlike her I support her and listen when she has concerns and worries about her business. I'm there when she wants to talk about it and it shames her when something comes up that came up in my business and she wasn't supportive and in its stead was critical and mean.

Oh, OUCH, TM...

I'm so sorry. I think "are you done yet?" would hurt anywhere, beach or no...very much.

LA

Writer1, you have created a false dilemma. You have painted this as a scenario in which I (or others with my viewpoint) demand the same level of desire from our spouse as we have. And you talk about it having to be hot, heavy and lengthy every time. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about my W obtaining enjoyment from making love to me most of the time. Let me be more clear.

I once asked my W, "If we never had sex again would you miss it?" Her answer: "Probably not." I am not looking for fishnet stockings, profuse sweating, and 7 orgasms five nights a week. But is it really asking too much to hope that my W gets enough out of it that she might miss it if we never did it again?

So, I now know that she does it for one reason, and one reason only: to get something of value in return. Sounds like a hooker to me.

It does. Would any woman on here feel hurt if they were hugging their H and he said, "Are you done yet?" or talking to them, "Are you finished talking? Nascar's on."

One more thing. "Making love" out of obligation does not add love units. It is condescending and insulting.

With Bubbles?

LOL.. Sorry... I know what you are trying to say. I just got a chuckle out of the way it was written and my first impression...

Swanman: Whose definition of enjoyment are we talking about here? Does your W have to enjoy SF in the same way that you do? Can you accept that she might get another form of enjoyment from the experience?

I was in no way referring to the over-the-top description of fishnet stockings and wild multiple orgasms that you stated. I don't think many married people would have such unrealistic expectations.

Do you know for sure that your W is only giving you SF to get something in return? Have you actually asked her? Has she actually stated that she's only doing it to get you to clean the house, talk to her, whatever?

OH,

Yes that was very funny!!! LOL! No worries, I get it and have a great sense of humor and laugh at myself all the time. Many of times I've seen similar and wanted to write, but not sure it would be taken with a light heart! Have at it! (no pun intended)

Writer, I guess I'm a simple guy. When someone says they would probably not miss an activity if they never engaged in it again, probably they are not obtaining much enjoyment from that activity. And no of course I don't expect her or anyone else to obtain enjoyment in the exact same way I do. But again, if there were some level of enjoyment she would not make the confession that she would not miss it. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Swanman: It could depend entirely upon the context in which she was asked.

None of that would work with me, so I don't know why it would be assumed that what makes Bubbles hot would work for your wife. If I was not in love with my H, rubbing my back would irritate me. ["get your mitts off the merchandise!"] If I was in love with him, I would love it.

Themud, the basic problem is that you and your wife are not in love. Remember when you were in love and sex was mutually enjoyable? I remember how early in my last marriage sex was NEVER a problem becuase I was in love. My H had a very high sex drive and mine was low to moderate. However, none of that matters when you are IN LOVE. When I was in love I jumped at the chance to make love to him. When I was not in love, it was "get on, get it over and get off me."

If you and your wife are IN LOVE, the other problem goes away, the mud. But in order to fall in love, you have to meet each others needs - EFFECTIVELY, not by guesssing what they might be - avoid lovebusters, implement POJA, RH, and spend 15 hours a week of UA. You can't do a little here, a little of this, cut a corner here and then GUESS at what might turn her on or meet her needs. It has to be done right.

I fiddled around on this forum for YEARS doing this all half [censored] and I had a half [censored] marriage. We were not passionately in love, we got along well enough. The GOAL of this program is to FALL IN LOVE, though, not to just tolerate each other.

So, I go off to my first MB weekend in 2007, after having been on the board 6 years. The first day, a MAJOR lovebuster of mine was flushed out, Independent Behavior, that led to his AO, which led to, which led to... it hade a domino effect which prevented real romantic feelings of love. When my H was doing angry outbursts, Dr HArley told him to go to anger management and that was the end of that! Our marriage has been wonderful ever since.

themud, the program really does work if you work it. Dr Harley is very good with reluctant spouses. Why not try it?

The point is, she is who SHE is, and you are who YOU are. You are DJing her by wanting her to think and feel like you. By saying that her level of enjoyment or desire is defective because it isn't the same 'kind' as yours.

Women are biologically different from men when it comes to to this. I was thinking of this yesterday, after my H asked if he could turn off HGTV after a couple hours (I was working on a job on my laptop and he was putting away Christmas stuff). I handed him the remote, and he immediately went to 'Life After People' - a grotesque (IMO) series about what earth will be like after humans are eliminated - all kinds of scenarios of cities being destroyed by nature, etc. After 2 episodes, I had to leave the room; it made me feel disgusted, sad, hopeless, and bored, all at the same time. But truth be told, that's how he feels watching all the HGTV shows I love.

Then it hit me. Women are into building; men are into destroying (generally speaking - spare me the 2x4s). Women nurture; men protect. On and on. Which is why HGTV plays 99% 'female' commercials and his channel plays 99% 'male' commercials. They know who watches their shows.

Neither way is wrong, it just IS.

Your wife may be 100% content with her life. Like me, she may get great enjoyment out of SF, you may be wonderful, but if push came to shove, it simple doesn't register on her radar as an important desire. Because she's a typical female, whose hormones are put to use for other things. Yours are put to use to further the human race; hers are to take care of it once it's here.

Therefore, what YOU want her to WANT...isn't fair. Just as it wouldn't be fair for her to want YOU to care about getting all psyched out over finding a great deal on a Prada purse (or whatever she's into), and it wouldn't be fair for her to disparage you on a forum because you DON'T.

Slightly O/T, but do you watch a show called Tough Love? It's the most amazing show, where this matchmaker guy teaches women how to become more 'loveable' and find a mate. Just amazing things you can learn from that show about men and women. This week, they had a Price is Right deal where the women guessed how much everything cost. One woman knew the price of every designer purse and expensive car. Another woman guessed about $200 for each item, cos she never cared about getting 'pretty' stuff from men. The most expensive thing she owned was a set of pots and pans that she bought herself by working; the other, first, woman, her most expensive thing was her...uh...anatomical corrections, the surgery of which was given to her by the doctor (you can imagine how). At the end, the audience of men was asked to vote on which woman was most and least datable. Can you guess how it went? They picked the woman who had similar wants - i.e., not wasting $2000 on a purse.

Men want certain things. Women want certain things. They don't have to jibe. They just have to respectfully coexist.

I think I know what Writer1 means about enjoyment. There are things I enjoy doing for my husband just because it makes him happy and I love seeinf that smile on his face. The actions in and of themselves are not all that exciting to me, but making my husband happy is. So while I would probably not miss frying chicken (it makes a big kitchen mess), I love when he realizes we are having fried chicken for supper and he gets that grin on his face. Sex might be like that for your wife, swan. The act itself might not be missed, but she still wants to make you happy. And that is a loving motive. Does that make sense? Understand that I empathize with your feelings; my H and I are the reverse of the typical couple. But I learned to appreciate that he would want me to feel good and to meet my need even if he wasn't all that "needy," if you get my drift. We aren't perfect. As much better as we are then we were 5 years ago in many ways, this is the single most stressful are of marriage for me. So I haven't figured it all out either.

Mel is right. I am sorry I forgot what it was like to NOT BE IN LOVE WITH MY MAN.

I remember when I was NOT in love, with a boyfriend, sex was never good. I had to be almost drunk to do it. Even with a neck massage (which helped plus a few glasses of wine) I could not enjoy sex with him.

The bottom line: If a woman is not in love, I doubt she would ever enjoy sex much.

I am wondering if there are some women out there who do enjoy sex without being in love with the person. I know I surely do not.

You still get HGTV?!?! Our cable company just turned off HGTV and Food Network. I think Mrs. Hold and D12 are going to have to be admitted to detox facilities to overcome their withdrawal pangs!

And while I am not as addicted, I must confess (hopefully without having to forfeit my man-card) that without Food Network it probably would not have occurred to me that the bag of parmesan encrusted bread sticks that Mrs. Hold and the kids brought back from a bakery in NYC could be placed into the food processor and chopped into a delicious coating for the chicken cutlets I baked last night!

Ladies, I sincerely appreciate your attempt to make me feel better about my situation, and maybe over time it can sink in and impact my views. Time has a way of seasoning new ideas. But right now I'm not buying it. Using Harley's five ENs for women, try this on for size and see if it fits.

"Honey, I am now going to show you affection. I know you love it when I rub your feet until you fall asleep. I can do this if you give me enough of what I want to be motivated to do it. But if you don't I'll have an aversion reaction to your feet. Even if you properly prepare me I will not enjoy it, but I will do it anyway."

"Sweetheart, I know conversation is important to you. So go ahead, you have 30 minutes. I'd rather be watching ESPN, but I'll listen and occasionally grunt to show I'm listening."

"Babycakes I know honesty and openness is important. Frankly I'd rather hide everything I possibly can from you, but this is just one of those things a guy has to do to stay in your good graces, so here are a couple things I thought of that I can be honest about without making me too angry."

"Hi there my little lover, I am off to work now to provide that regular paycheck in order to give you financial security. Sure could work less If I hadn't taken you on as an added financial burden. Live and learn. But here you go sweet pea, enjoy your allowance."

"I know how much you love it when I coach little Bobby's baseball team and generally enjoy the kids. And I do that because I know I'll never again see you naked if I don't do it. I'd rather be drinking beer with the guys, but that won't help anything here at home. So off I go to be super dad."

You see, this idea that we can adequately meet emotional needs by engaging in things we really don't want to do is absurd. Nobody would ever accept the nonsensical things I say in this post about meeting a woman's needs. But that line of thinking is supposed to work when it comes to sex. Insanity.

Mel,

But what if she said she was in love and happy and content?

I thought your issue was about her WANTING it the same way you do? Is this just about frequency?

fwiw, you sound a little self-absorbed about this. Do you give her a REASON to want to engage in great SF with you? How are you doing on eliminating all your LBs?

MUD, if your wife says she is in love with you,

and she still does not want sex with you

You should ask her what the deal is? Tell her you heard that women in love like to have sex with thier men a few times a week.

Ask her why she does not want to do it?

Cat,

It was all of the above until someone on here said, if she enjoys it, but is not into and is doing it for you out of love accept it graciously. I do now with that one. It's now more the inability to initiate or ask for it and that relates directly to frequency yes. Yes LB on both our parts we are still working on. It use to be easy for me not to say anything, and she is the one with diarreah of the mouth, so when she LB me I (for my part) stupidly do not put up with it anymore and blurt one out to her. Of course this isn't right, but she ABSOLUTELY does not think! If I tell her, that hurt or why would you say something mean like that or that was direspectful her narcissism gets in the way and she discounts my feelings, makes excuses around it that I'm being sensitive or I took it wrong, she didn't mean it that way... blah, blah, blah. Narcissism runs deep in her family.

I told her one time she was narcissistic and she thought about it and later asked me if I really thought that, so we broke out the wikipedia and went over it. She felt bad because it described her mom to a T and she recognized some of it. I guess we can all act that way, but a few days later she was back at it!

Bubbles,

I have asked and her response had to do with tired, if you did this or that.

Yikes! New here and new to the program. I thought I would spend a little time reading some post topics to get my feet wet and I see there is a huge spectrum of folks in the process. I can see my wife and I will have an interesting journey.

I have heard for years she doesn't really enjoy SF much and that always has hurt me. I wanted to learn and make it as good for her but could not seem to ever find a combination. After reading here I am already getting a feel for these differences. I am glad I read this but be gentle on me as I learn.

One of my biggest concerns is I feel she is in total control of our intimacy. If I suggest making love she will always suggest another time or another day. She will not ever accept a time that I suggest. It is pretty much only a weekend, only in the late evening when we are tired, and only in the dark. Heaven forbid if I was to actually see her. She is not over weight and I wouldn't care if she was. Enjoyment for me is often squashed because essentially I feel I just get what I get and non of it is my decision nor do I have any accepted input. Maybe I should feel lucky there is some intimacy every few weeks.

Anyway, making sure there are no LB's and trying to meet EN's to the best of my ability.

Are there 2 main posters here with the same issue? If so, sorry, it seems there is one mud and another swanman.

Anyway, I've read through this thread over the course of a few days (so forgive me if I forgot)..but have you all filled out the questionnaires? Have you had your spouses fill them out?
It seems like a lot of assumptions and just because something was true at one point it may not be the case now.

Speaking as a W with low desire, I can tell you that when I filled out the questionnaire i was "sure" I "just didn't want SF" but writing out all of his LB's, and my own EN's I saw things that I couldnt' see with all my thoughts swirling around in my head. It gave me lots of clarity. Even things I said to H over the years is so innaccurate. Writing it out really helped get it all out.

Perhaps she doesn't like the technique? or smthg else about it but can;t quite put her finger on it? Perhaps she has some presuppositions about how it's "supposed to be" or some fantasies that's she's too shy to dislose. etc etc etc


I reallly really really encourage you all to do the questionnaires and exchange them. You may be surprised by her responses, but you might even be surprised by your own!

Uh, My W lied on the questionaire, then lied about lying on.

Yeah,

This is swanman's thread, but when it comes to SF I sometimes totally defend the high drive person, get carried away. Sorry guys, will crawl back into my hole.

Does it seem like she is passionately in love with you? Can't wait to be with you every day?

Yeah, she's lying about being in love with you too. She might "love" you in a family way because you are her H and you take out the trash, but she is not head over heels IN LOVE with you.

Marriage Builders weekend, Marriage Builders weekend, Marriage Builders weekend........... If she lies on her questionaires then you have a marriage coach and Dr Harley to back you up and get her on board.

Dr. Willard was there to back me up. WW, sovereignty, and IB until the cows come home. I guess I should stop DJ!!!

Thanks ML, you are great, but I have to say it must come from her... as horrible as it is. I would love to go to MB, and to DJ a little more, she would see it as fun not reluctant and she would love the activity, but that is all she would see it as.

Dr Willard was WHERE?

Where are the responses to my most from Jan. 4 at 4:24 p.m.? Makes it pretty clear that meeting an emotional need in the absence of desire is kind of silly don't you think?

Here, I'll re-submit so you don't have to go look for it.

Ladies, I sincerely appreciate your attempt to make me feel better about my situation, and maybe over time it can sink in and impact my views. Time has a way of seasoning new ideas. But right now I'm not buying it. Using Harley's five ENs for women, try this on for size and see if it fits.

"Honey, I am now going to show you affection. I know you love it when I rub your feet until you fall asleep. I can do this if you give me enough of what I want to be motivated to do it. But if you don't I'll have an aversion reaction to your feet. Even if you properly prepare me I will not enjoy it, but I will do it anyway."

"Sweetheart, I know conversation is important to you. So go ahead, you have 30 minutes. I'd rather be watching ESPN, but I'll listen and occasionally grunt to show I'm listening."

"Babycakes I know honesty and openness is important. Frankly I'd rather hide everything I possibly can from you, but this is just one of those things a guy has to do to stay in your good graces, so here are a couple things I thought of that I can be honest about without making me too angry."

"Hi there my little lover, I am off to work now to provide that regular paycheck in order to give you financial security. Sure could work less If I hadn't taken you on as an added financial burden. Live and learn. But here you go sweet pea, enjoy your allowance."

"I know how much you love it when I coach little Bobby's baseball team and generally enjoy the kids. And I do that because I know I'll never again see you naked if I don't do it. I'd rather be drinking beer with the guys, but that won't help anything here at home. So off I go to be super dad."

You see, this idea that we can adequately meet emotional needs by engaging in things we really don't want to do is absurd. Nobody would ever accept the nonsensical things I say in this post about meeting a woman's needs. But that line of thinking is supposed to work when it comes to sex. Insanity.

I would, if they weren't crafted with such a deep slant, love to hear my DH share these same statements, in his radical honesty, if he was in that mindset. It would be great to know. Not a battle...a connection. And I remember when he chose this same perspective years ago. He wasn't absurd. He also wasn't honest enough to tell me. Nor was I honest enough to hear. Much of your "insane" samples come from child-like reasoning...which is exactly the mindset we get into in Conflict and Withdrawal. MB is about creating the marital environment so that meeting ENs IS what we most want to do...and love doing. Acting from and experiencing love. I'd say calling for counseling would be your very best investment in your own happiness.

How many times have you dragged your feet about doing something, then when you got into action, turned out to enjoy it?

That's why you have to decide to take a positive attitude towards DOING what you are supposed to do. Once you accept your duties, and marriage has duties, then you will just get to doing, instead of sitting around resenting it, or calculating whether you are receiving enough in return.

As I said above, when your spouse is not meeting their duties to try to make you happy, it is only natural to be unhappy, and want to stop trying. That's what most people do, just what they feel like doing. That's why half of all marriages fail.

If you are meeting your duties to your marriage (think of it that way, instead of to a person, your spouse), you will be on a lot firmer ground, and have no problem stating with openness and honesty that you are unhappy with their lack of performance, and you would like to know why.

Okay, getting personal here. H and I have never had the same level of SF need. And we have talked about it numerous times. Bottom line, he is not wired to want it is much or as often as me. So I have some choices. I can just sit around until I spiontaeously combust, or I can wait until he is raring to go, which won't happen as often. OR I can accept his gift of love to me on those night when I am raring to go and he is sort of ho-hum. If I don't want to see his gift as a gift instead of an insult, then my only option is to just go without. It all boils down to how I CHOOSE to view it. I will never make him be like me - he isn't me. So I can be grateful for his gift, or I can whine because he didn't "want it" as much as I wanted him to.

And you know, DS is a big need of my H's. I can't count the number of times I have thought to myself that I do NOT want to cook, or I do not want to do laundry, or whatever. If I waited until laundry gave me warm fuzzies, I'd be naked right now. So I guess H can either go naked too, or ha can appreciate that even though laundry isn't my favorit thing, I am doing it. And no, I don't think I should moan and gripe the whole time I am doing it. That wouldn't be good either.

What I hear you saying is that you want her to want it in exactly the same way you do. That will not happen. I don't care how many seminars you go to. If her libido is low, unless you find some pill she can take, her libodi may not ever be high. But You can still have fulfilling SF, if you choose to view it positively.

Lur read my post on HOLD"S thread. And buy a couple great sex toys you like. Personally I love the silver bullet and the pocket rocket. Pull him into the bedroom and have him "please you" with hands or the toys.

Ask him for this every night for a week. You will feel a lot better knowing your needs are going to be filled. Also, he may want to join in more. That is what happened to us, the more I asked for "sexual pleasure" from him, the more he liked it and the more he joined in! At least then, if my H was tired or whatever, he could give me the pleasure I need. then he could join in or not, No problem!

HERE IT IS FOR ALL OF YOU STRUGGLING WITH SEX ISSUES:


Let me tell you there were many nights I would approach my H for sex and he would "not want it" and I would STOMP out of the bedroom to sleep in the guest room and cry.

It was about a year at that stage. The stage when I did not know what to do "after that" to find the solution. There is a solution beyond that point. I am here to tell you about it. But only if she loves you enough to help find it.

What turned the corner for us is when I made a Dr appt with our Dr to see what was up with my husband/s libido. I never felt such hatred toward me for doing that. He told me to never never never ever do that again. The Dr was going to prescribe Viagra, other than that my H was fine. He does have high cholesterol though now.

Then the other turning point was me telling H I was stymied to find a solution and could not live like this anymore. I told him to take a couple days, and think about the problem of lack of sex....with me and come up with a good solution to save our marriage and make us both happy.

The next morning he came to me and told me the solution.

This is sort of how he worded it, " I think this will work. Whenever you want sex, ask me, and I will provide it. Every day if you want it. " I asked, "What about if you do not want sex when I ask?"

He says, "If I dont want sex when you ask, I will provide it for you">

I asked, "You mean if I asked you for sex every day, you could come thru for me?"

He said, "YES">

(You have to know that I accept great hand action and sex toy pleasure as sex so that we have flexibility, as long as I get the big O I am fine)

Then, I tested him out for two weeks asking almost every day. (in a nice cute way of course)

He did what he promised. Every time. Still does.

I learned to ask and he learned to give.

We worked it out. You can too. Ask your wife what she would suggest to save your marriage and so the marriage does not become sexless.

You mean, you would just start in, like masturbating with a toy or hand? OMG! I think my W would be ok with me masturbating without her, but I don't know if I would like it. I might as well do it alone and come to bed, and have 100s of times, that way I can just go to sleep. I've never used toys for me, but have bought them for her and of course she's never used them alone and we rarely use them. I bought them for her pleasure not for a turn on for me (although it does). Would you just start or ask, then say, "well I'm getting me some by myself then."? How would I do this without seeming like a jerk. Also, my fear tells me she would start to say, "do it yourself" and that would be another way to not bother with being with me.

In one of the other threads about relationship books, I mentioned a book I found at a beach house that we rented in 2008. The author and her husband had rented it not long before, and she had left several copies of her book, "The 10-Minute Sexual Solution" there. I was skeptical, but curious, of such a short book, but it was buy a clinical psychologist who specializes in sexual problems, more than just marriage. It was actually pretty good, a lot like MB: cut through and skip past all the causation, and get to solving the problems by taking a set of steps in a new direction.

I have done it many ways. Sorry I will have to be blunt and descriptive in order to "help people" so please do not be offended. I will outline a few of the 1000 variations.

When I ask my H to "have sex" or "come to bed", then he comes in there to the bedroom and there are many ways it can happen.

1. You (Spouse #1) can place her (spouse #2) hands where you want them and she can go from there. Encourage her with words and touch. Give her the emotional attention she wants while she does this or play music or have candles.

2. One partner (#1) can kiss and touch the other spouse's body while that other spouse (#2) plays with themselves. This works for both people. I can kiss and touch H while he does the deed. Or he can kiss and touch and talk to me while I do it on myself.

3. One spouse (#1)can grab whatever toy they want and use it on the other person (#2).

4. One spouse (Spouse #`1) can choose the toy they want (from the small collection) and hand that toy to the other spouse (spouse #2) to use on them (spouse #1).

5. Spouse #1 can tell the Spouse #2 what they feel like in bed but have a second option ready in case #2 does not want to do that particular thing.

6. Spouse #1 can give #2 a choice of how to pleasure #1. Cheerfully give a choice and then they choose what they want to do.

7. If both spouse #1 and #2 are sick but one wants sex, then they can postpone.

8. Early in the evening #1 can ask for lovemaking from #2 AT A SET TIME THAT NIGHT. In order to prepare both of them mentally.

9. #1 can pleasure #2 with hands for about 10 minutes and then #2 can take over at the end can play with themselves to O. Each spouse can always kiss and touch the other one and who cares how they reach O. They can do it themselves or let the other spouse do it and the goal is a lot of loving touching, loving talk, kissing and intimacy.

Who cares who's hands does the deed! The partners are ONE with each other anyway. Just do it! A heap of touching, kissing, loving words and then at the end a great O is fantastic sex in my book.


10. So many other ways I could be writing for ages.

How cute is Bubbles? I can't think of a better example of POJAing a solution.

Sometimes if I'm not up to the full "work out", I'll suggest a quickie to take my husband's edge off. We also schedule sex, just like most families schedule dinner. Meals are scheduled for a reason--so every one is accustomed to eating at the same time. If we all just wandered in whenever, expecting a meal that wasn't scheduled, it would be chaos and aggravation.

"Ya wanna eat?"
"Na, I'm not hungry. Maybe later."

Same thing with sex.

What have you got to lose with the masturbation? I would do it in a "join in if you want, no biggie if you don't" kind of way. No pressure to do more. When you're done, kiss her and cuddle if possible.

What Bubbles and her husband did with the problem was very good--see if you could bargain the way they did--looking for the win-win.

We are getting better but remain stuck on two issues.

1. The quickie: H gets upset when I propose this
2. Timing. Much past 10:30 PM and I am worthless. I don't need nor expect him to go to sleep the same time I do. If he wants to get up and watch TV afterwards, that's really fine with me. But waking me at midnight for a session is going to result in a "no". And I have just quit feeling guilty about that. He's been warned.

Yes! Everyone can do this I think!

Attractive indeed is expressing our needs (in 100 ways if we have to) and helping out our entire marriage!

I ran down the things OTHER than intercourse in order to offer 100 creative solutions when intercourse is off the table.

Of course in any one of these ways to "do sex", intercourse could be injected during or after. These ways can also be used as pretty darn good foreplay.

It's taking the time to do it. If I lay suggestions on the table it might help, but she absolutley HATES being told what to do unless she asks and then it's not a garauntee she'll do it b/c she likes throwing her control around. It is very hard for me to see my wife even getting into it as much as you even describe. To her those would be very involved, unless it was one of those 1-2x/mo where she can actually get the energy up to start reving.

Based upon the responses, it is obvious I have not made myself entirely clear. So let me try once more.

1. I fully understand that no two people have exactly the same sex drive, as it pertains to the type of SF or the amount.

2. I am perfectly comfortable with the notion that the lower sex drive spouse is going to have sex at times when he/she is not as fully into it as the higher drive spouse. I view that as an act of love and a gift in marriage.

3. However, it is not acceptable if the lower drive spouse NEVER wants it and doesn't enjoy it.

4. As stated before, my W has admitted that she would not miss it if we never had sex again. That is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than the H wants it 5 times a week and the W wants it 2 times a week.

I am talking about a situation in which the drive is zip, zero, nada, and has literally been that way since the wedding day (we were both virgins when married). And by the way, I am in the same situation as Mud. The kinds of things described by Bubbles would be regarded as WAY over the top by my wife. Sex toys, masturbation, fondling each other is in her mind carnal and icky.

When I want to find a solution for a marital problem I like to research it fully. Information is power. I like to research BOTH EXTREMES to find out where I and my husband fall on the continuim.

What it seems you are talking about Mud and Swan is nearly celebate marriage, mud not as much. This would call for a study of CELEBATE MARRIAGE on Google. I can link you if you would like I had to study all about this and everything else in order to make my marriage better. I am sure my husband could go without sex for a couple months at at time (or maybe even years) if I was not here to remind him.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=celibate+marriage&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

I did a study on this so I could better deal with my husband. What i found is that he is not into celebate marriage, but is "more in that direction" than me.

http://www.asexuality.org/home/

I had to read this a lot to get an idea how my husband could possibly feel inside about this sex issue. I knew if I learned how he functioned and felt about SEX, then and only then could I know how to properly approach the problem.

Believe me I tried 100's of approaches before I found a way thru this issue/problem of ours of the lack of sex....

I guess all totaled up, I must have done a year of research on sexual issues in order to help my own marriage. And all the research was totally worth it.

Some of the postings on the AVEN site were exactly what my husband thought and felt and what i thought and felt about sex. It was really helpful

Also, sometimes you need a new language to express yourself in sexual terms. For example, I never had to really talk about sex with any other boyfriends (all 3 of them) because the sex just happened because the men approached me for it.

Since my husband does not approach me for sex much (since I like it more than he does) I had to learn the "lingo" of how to speak about the issue:

1. Without turning him off
2. Without him ignoring the issue as being unimportant
3. Without making him mad at me
4. Without offending him
5. Without hurting his feelings
6. Without being a pest
7. Without causing him to close down
8. Without causing more mistunderstandings!

I had to LEARN TO SPEAK ABOUT SEXUAL ISSUES and our issue in particular. It took a while to learn this!

But had I not done all the research and learned all about how people talked about sex, I would not have been able to get to our solution!!!

Handcuffs for you. Whip for her. Everybody's got their quirks, mud! Work with it!

Yes what Nano said! Or the reverse. Women who are in control love to be "controlled" sometimes. She may not know it but if you can experiment restraining her she may love it. Worth a try if you can get her to experiment just for fun.

Also, look up the ANTS system. Sounds like Mrs. Mud is cingulate like Mrs. Hold. There is a technique of "reverse psychology" that works with cingulate brains.

AMEN web site on Cingulate Gyrus

.