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Hi Chris, welcome to Marriage Builders. I too, am in the NOVA area and am in the waiting period before my ("no fault") divorce can be finalized (it's "no fault" per Virginia law - my wife is committing adultery with a married man, but since we have no children together, Virginia would rather we just split and go our separate ways. But I digress).

Are you referring to the Marriage Fitness plans that are currently being advertised on local radio? I looked at the web sites for that program and felt that you had to pay a lot for what you can get for free here. That's not to say you can't get counseling and buy books here, but there are a lot of articles, concepts, guidelines and questionnaires you can find here that can give you a lot of insight into how healthy marriages function (or should function), and how you can work to build yours.

There are also a lot of great people here who have been down the road we're traveling now. They can help steer you and clear the path for you. Now, a couple of questions if I may, to help find out where things stand:

Do you suspect your husband of having an affair? Either an emotional affair (EA) or physical affair (PA)? Either ongoing or in the past? Sorry, but we have to get that out there right away.

His physical abuse alone should be a deal-killer. Your story suggests that he's managed to control his physical abuse due to the threat of losing his job it exposes him to, but that he's found different ways of being abusive, still. Not a good sign.

You are posting on the Divorce/Divorcing forum, but it sounds like you're not really sold on the idea, is that true? What does the Marriage Fitness program say? Are you here because it is coming up short?

This site is primarily about building strong, healthy marriages. Of course, it takes two (regardless what the other program tells you, which on the surface sounds much like "Plan Doormat" to me). If your husband is not willing to work on the marriage, I don't really know what options you have. Others may have advice that fails me at the moment.

My initial recommendation would be to read everything you can found either in the yellow box to the right of this page, or through the link at the top of the page to learn about Dr. Willard Harley, his Basic Concepts, how he learned to save marriages and the Marriage Builders program.

You may wish to set up a telephone counseling with one of the Harleys (his son and daughter, also Ph.D.s in psychology and counseling, are part of this service) or attend one of their Marriage Building weekends. But first, learn as much as you can from the free articles here.

You have found a resource unlike any on the Internet here. Please learn as much as you can, then post and ask your questions. The wonderful veterans here will give you no-holds-barred advise. It's great stuff, and if you heed it, it can do you wonders!

Redacted

Redacted

Chris,

It seems to me that everything now hinges on your husband. You have described him (and his family/father) as tough, former USMC "alpha male" types. I'm guessing that people such as these have a very hard time looking inwardly and examining themselves. Their entire culture and upbringing has shaped them to believe that being tough, unemotional, in control and macho is the "proper" way to be.

I do not know if there is a way (or if it's even possible) for such men to change. My late former FiL was a career soldier. He married an Italian woman, who though feisty and fiery, pretty much subjected herself to his career and issues. Apart from him, she exhibited a certain independence of thought, but she spent her entire married life doting on their daughter (my first ex-wife), cooking and shopping.

So I guess it comes down to what YOU can do. You wondered if your husband would be receptive to counseling or coaching. You won't know the answer to that unless you ask him. I would suggest you do so, but not as a threat ("I'm going to leave you if you don't") even if you feel that way. You may need to do so some time in the future, but for now, I'd suggest playing it short and sweet: "Our marriage is in trouble. Will you agree to counseling, either with me or on your own? We do not seem able to work this out between ourselves." His answer will probable give you an indication of what your next step will be.

Fred, again - thanks for your response.

My mom suggests that for now, I should focus on my physical recovery and not upset the applecart immediately because I am depending on him for day to day assistance and he is providing it. It will just be a few more weeks of this.

She also suggested and I also know that I need to continue reinforce the friendships I have & work on developing new ones too. She says that, at the same time, I should and continue to try the suggestions on this site & the program I already purchased...which basically say - try to meet as many of your spouse's needs as possible, do not fall back into old routines, be open and prepared to communicate with honesty and kindness if & when your spouse starts to respond to what you're doing to make things better.

I know it will be tough because it saddens me that he is still stubbornly unwilling to talk to me about anything beyond logistics, groceries, and home projects. "I don't want to talk to you about this. I'm done." My feelings right now remind me of the times when he was physically abusive. I felt hurt, panicked, and empty inside all at the same time. This is exaxctly how I feel now and I hate it. This is very painful. I am wondering that if he does begin to open up - will I be able to get over this hurtful time? This is not the first time he has hurt me this way.

I am married to an angry man and one who sees nothing wrong with all the anger / angry words & outbursts / consistent stonewalling.

It could very well be that the best thing for me and our son is a separation and then a divorce. And a serious self examination as to how and why I ended up in this predicament so I don't end up with the same type of person in the future if I do find love again.

I saw that there were over 50 reads to my thread, yet you're the only one who offered input....Does that mean that my situation is really crazy and hopeless?

This is the Divorced/Divorcing forum, but you haven't specifically said you were either, so my guess is some people don't know what to say.

Just another suggestion: Perhaps you should click on the "Notify" button to the lower right and request the moderators move this thread to the "Marriage Builders 101" forum. You will get a lot more readers there (and thus more feedback), but it also is probably a more appropriate forum for you to work on your marriage rather than work on divorcing. Does that make sense?

Thank you.

I thought this was the right place since my spouse told me what he did...but I can see your point. We're actually still married, and I can't be the only person who has a spouse who is unwilling to talk / work on things.

I clicked the notify button per your suggestion.

Welcome to MB 101, Chris...

I don't know about the other Fitness program...I do know that what you listed as doing now, I didn't see "Eliminating Love Busters"...

which is crucial to falling in love again.

If you don't, and you have many, then I don't see your marriage as having a chance. For each one LB, you withdraw 20 EN deposits.

So you may feel as if you're doing everything possible, because you won't look at yourself, examine YOUR daily choices, your responsibilities...it really won't work.

Kudos on recognizing that you both can connect through conflict. Means you are aware your H isn't the monster...the bad guy, the if only he were different then guy...

I see you having a lot of your own bad choices reinforced by family and in justified in your thoughts.

There are no bad guys in your marriage. Each of you have attacked the marriage in different ways...ways of doing and not doing.

We all have...until we came and learned and chose different actions in our marriages. You are not alone.

What are you really choosing as your goal, Chris? Are you choosing to do everything possible to save your marriage, keep your family intact for the best for your son and yourself and your spouse? Or are you going to continue wavering?

Your H stopped acting out his anger physically. Doesn't mean he worked out his anger once and for all...nor that reasonably, the verbal abuse hiding behind the physical abuse would stop, too. What did you change in 2006? You finally enforced a single boundary...what about since? What boundaries did you learn and put into place, what predetermined and progressive boundary enforcements have you consistently held yourself to?

Can you understand that doing your half, your part, is equally important to his changes, and always have been? If you can conceive of AA and Alanon...one is for the alcoholic (abuser) and the other is for the spouse/loved one of the alcoholic (abused). Because it takes BOTH for the cycle to exist and continue...BOTH choices of each party are important...one doesn't cure the other, ever.

And many abused spouses don't see themselves as sick...so they don't do their part, own their half...only look to the abuser to get well, to stop, to change, keep changing...and the abused continues to

You don't listen to your H, Chris. I don't think you realize how much you hear and don't listen.

Your H said he very MUCH wanted to address what happened in 2006. Are you ready to hear, not assume, what he wants to say, share with you? Do you really want to know him today, as he now is?

You could choose to see him stopping his physical abuse as his choice about him...not who he ever wanted to be...to see it as an achievement, celebrate it, because he chose to learn, to stop, learned how to stop. You could admire him for changing rather than rewrite your choice of him in the first place.

These are your choices...just yours. They will change your feelings today, if you choose to go for clarity. I advise going for clarity as a goal before deciding separation or divorce. To see clearly your part, your influence and power and limits...and for a divorce to be the final boundary enforcement after you've taken many ahead of it.

Then there is no worrying or fretting, re-evaluating. Because you made a plan for yourself, chose your goals, your priorities, and made sure you were clear every step of the way.

Though the thoughts you're having are understandable, they are not nearly as reasonable as I think you'd like them to be. Learning that difference is really important when you're considering divorce.

LA

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Hi Chris, welcome to MB! A lot of folks will read and not comment, because some things we are familiar with, and others we are not. That's not a reflection on whether your situation is hopeless or not or anything else. Folks can be rooting for you without posting, too. I encourage you to read through the Basic Concepts.

It sounds like you're in the information gathering stage, not feeling at peace with any of the options available to you yet, am I right? I don't know if your H is flip-flopping because he's in an information gathering stage, too, or whether the divorce remarks were intended to get you back up functioning against your better judgment. I'm really happy you're here, because there is a ton of information available. Here's an article that talks to a similar situation, When to Call It Quits - Part 2 In the Newsletter section I think you may also find some more newsletters that would have relevant information for you.

Redacted

I purchased a session w/ Stephen W.

I want to see if I can save my marriage.

Chris, I caught one-read through of your response to my post before you redacted it. I understood you to feel attacked and put down in some way, and for most of what I said to not apply or be flat out wrong.

I'm glad you've made an appointment, and want to save your marriage (or see if you can).

I don't understand why you wouldn't also use these boards to add to the support...unless what you heard was the one unchangeable truth...

We can only help you with what you control--yourself--because you are the one here. Which makes you powerful and limited...like the rest of us. We just don't have to go it alone.

I wonder if you heard folks here tell you that you were wrong...in the wrong place...using the wrong words...having the wrong focus. I hope not...but I do remember when I first came here and could not hear what others were hearing in my posts...which were very much like yours...full of DJs they could hear and I couldn't...focused on my DH as the problem...

and they said the same thing...I'm here, I'm half of the marriage at all times...so I gotta be half of the problems.

And that people weren't problems--they have them.

After all these years of sharing that with other newcomers, maybe this time I missed the mark. If so, I'm sorry, Chris.

We stand for the marriage here...friends of the marriage. So we don't take sides, per se, for the wife or the husband...just the marriage.

Very different than any other place on the 'net, in my experience.

LA

LA, sometimes we're just not ready to to focus on our side of the street until we are left with only our side of the street

Having been a long-time lurker and reader of threads, I have preferred just to listen and learn and let it sink in before I ever posted. Most "thread watchers" out there are used to going on forums and having their egoes stroked and getting loads of BS justification for whatever mindset they are clinging to. This place is SO different, but a lot of people post before they realize the can of worms they are opening!

Chris, you are not alone. If you don't feel safe posting, that's OK. You're not there yet. But please keep reading the other stories and threads. Give it a few weeks or months to sink in over time. When you are ready you know where to come!

And FWIW, Loving Anyway is one of the wisest voices I have ever come across in my life. What she has to say sometimes doesn't penetrate my thick skull, but enough has sunk in that I'm seeing a difference in my life. Read her responses. She has a lot of sanity, good sense, and TREMENDOUS compassion. She won't let you off the hook though

LA & Thinking,

I am a very introspective person and I fully understand that there are a minimum of 3 sides to every story.

It wasn't that I am not ready to "hear" about what my part in this is. If I wasn't ready for that, I don't think I would be inclined to look up any info about how I can turn things around or even sign up for any sessions. What put me off about your post, LA, is that I know for a fact that my behavior in no way caused him to physically abuse me & that is where some of your comments seemed to be going. (I couls have misinterpreted that though...)

To be clear: I know that I have probably made withdrawls in excess of depostis in the Love Bank, but then again my husband's mental state may also be a factor in this as well. He is a decorated veteran of over 20 years and has had personal hurts to overcome as well.

Even with all that, I sincerely appreciate the information, support, and opinions (even if they are very different from mine) which everyone has responded with. I want you to know that I removed my posts for privacy reasons, not because of anything anyone has said.

Please - keep the honesty coming.

Sorry Chris, I was probably being a bit snarky. Long day Not an excuse though . . . sincerely sorry. That said, I'm not taking my comment down. For one thing, that would be too easy (for me to forget and not learn to stop with my arrogance), for another, some people really AREN'T ready until they are ready, and I think it's wise for all of us (including the lurkers like I once was) to remember it. Dang, there I go being arrogant again!


And good for you for enforcing your own boundaries by removing your posts. Whatever your motives were it shows you are capable of protecting yourself (and thus your family and maybe even your marriage!).

Something troubling about your answer though, and something to think about. I have a problem with that word "cause" when you say your behavior in no way "caused" him to be physically abusive. What you say is a true statement. But what we do on our side of the street DOES CONTRIBUTE. You address this yourself when you admit to making more withdrawls than deposits (and heck, we have ALL been there, good for you for seeing it). That's never to EXCUSE another person's behavior. But nor is it a justification to throw in the towel until we've stopped any and all behaviors on our part that may be making the situation worse. Does that make sense?

I always try to choose my words carefully. There is a difference between "cause" and "contribute."

t, you always get me thinking. I understand that we contribute to how others feel about us, like your thread with mark talks about. But I 100% agree with Chris that her behavior in no way caused her H to be physically abusive. Nor did she contribute to the permission he gave himself to lash out at her physically. He decided what his permissions were before they even met. Many folks decide they are not going to get physical when they get angry with their partner.

We all get our feelings hurt sometimes in relationships, make withdrawals, and we can learn better ways to work through that and make better choices together. But as always, we choose how we respond. There are hundreds of other choices folks can pick other than physical violence.

For example, when my kids were little and acted up, I sent them to time-out for like two minutes. Other folks paddled their kids. But the kids' behavior in no way caused the parents' choices. They'd already made up their mind on discipline before the kids came along and acted up.

Totally agree with you both on this part.

I think what I mean by "contribute" is asking myself, "Is there something I'm doing that is making the situation worse?" Taking ownership of my half of the relationship, like LA said.

I am very grateful never to have been in a situation where I've experienced PHYSICAL abuse. But I have endured VERBAL abuse. I "contributed" to the situation by not stating that the cursing and angry outbursts were totally unacceptable and physically removing myself from hearing them. Someone pointed out to me that perhaps I was punishing myself for something I felt guilty about, and in this case, I was indeed! But it took a wise outsider to be able to point that out.

Anohter example, more generic. My spouse spends a LOT of time doing IB in the eveinings instead of spending time together. It's been like this from day one, and I never noticed it until we got married because we didn't live together beforehand and didn't really spend much time together while dating and engagement. (red flag I didn't' see)

I found that I contribute to the problem. I am also engage in IB. I did it because my spouse was ignoring me. I felt justified in doing my own thing, when what I should have done is state very clearly that my spouse's IB was really bothering me and POJA a solution. After so many years of this cycle of my IB justifying spouses IB justifying my IB, we now each contribute to each other's IB. I'm stopping the cycle by stopping my IB and giving my spouse opportunities to stop their IB. I'm not as hard core as ML about being honest and critical, because my spouse is very against all this MB stuff. I'm taking a more gentl approach by working on me consistenly for a long time then upping the anti. I need to know what is my part anyway, and we are so enmeshed that I really don't know where I end and my spouse begins with some of our conflicts.

I don't want to threadjack here, so I'm going to stop now. But I thought Chris might also benefit from the distinction.

I am in NO WAY blaming her for the situation she is in!!!!

And whiile I don't remember all the details of her redacted posts, I think she has been doing some work in trying to find out her part and his part. I wouldn't want to give advice, but a separation (not a divorce) might be the very thing for her to do both to discover her own issues, and also to allow her husband to realize the consequences of his actions.

Ther is still a chance for recovery if separated, and I would guessthat in a situation like hers something like separation might actually be helpful. I don't know though.

Two things

1) Thinking: I did not ask you to take your comment down. The idea seems kind of strange to me and I am hoping that it's not common for members here to request that other members take their comments down.

2) Everyone: I completely reject the notion of any responsibility (and we can also use the word cause, contribute, or carrot) for my spouse's abusive behavior. Abusers make the decision to abuse their intimate partners or other famly members because of something inside themselves. It's OK to be frustrated or angry; however, physical violence within the context of an intimate relationship is never OK.

Is the point of LA's (& possibly Thinking's) comment to get me to think: "Gee what did I do to contribute to getting beat up by my husband?" God, I hope not...and this isn't really the callibur of "help" I would expect in a place like this one.

I set a boundary by first warning that if it happened again what action I would take & then I reinforced that boundary by actually taking the action when it did happen again. It hasn't happened in a number of years, and I believe it's not likely to happen again, so I don't want this discussion to keep focusing on physical abuse.

The focus for me is making the most out of my sessions, gathering as much info as I can, and getting my spouse to the same point I am at - desiring to restore our love and our marriage...

NewEveryDay, your comments on this are right on target.

We do contribute to how people feel when they are with us. Are our actions friendly, loving, supportive? Do our words and body language serve to bring others closer or do they push other people away?

The thing about physical and verbal abuse / abusers is: Abusers have a whole different type of issue going on inside them...and I have read that the more "in love" the abuser feels with you the more trouble you are in - that is, making an abuser feel closer to or more in love with you by kind / loving words and deeds may actually serve to escalate the abuse. (Shocking, I know)

Steve (and other professionals) would not touch the "how did you contribute to getting beat up by your spouse" comment with a 10 mile pole.

Like I said, I was hoping for a different and more constructive focus for my discussions of marriage here, so hopefully we can either come to some understanding or agree to disagree about the abuse thing.

In no way did I intend or say that you contributed or caused your H to be physically or verbally abusive with you.

I said your WHOLE part was staying present for it, the beginning the escalation, how you did not enforce your own boundary on physical abuse until you did.

You said your H has not been physically abusive in nearly four years...his treatment was in part from the law, anger management classes, etc. And he has not abused you again physically as I recall.

And yet you write as if it's current, it's what he has just done, without amends or learning or stopping. That's what I get. And Alanon is truly for those who have issues with control and resentment, their own sickness, and they pick abusers to go with it. Their loved ones abuse alcohol, drugs, food, money, etc...and they abuse people. And themselves. And when they stop the behaviors...stop drinking, let's say, then the underlying stuff keeps the abuse which was present before a drink or a drug was taken...and still everyone suffers.

So I'm not saying your H isn't currently abusive...I'm saying to look at your own part, what is in your power, that makes you so strongly identify with being abused after the physical abuse stops...where you choose for your thoughts to dwell, which keeps your resentment and control alive and growing.

There remains the underlying issues with you and your H...and I don't see where either of you are safe for the other right now...

I reacted so strongly to your original post because of this...I saw you as if you were my DH, after years of my verbal abuse, doing what you are doing...and I bottomed out inside. Had to remind myself that what my DH admires the most about me, and says so, is how much I've changed...and stayed changed...and if he were to post like you, I would believe what he feared most six years ago had come to pass...

he wrote "why should I come back. It will only be more pain and suffering."

And no matter how much I changed, it would not save the marriage if my DH had dwelled in what was for 15 years of marriage...if he focused on my past, not my present behavior.

Resentment has a language and a taste...uses words like "didn't deserve" "shouldn't be this way" "if only you didn't"
"you changed who I am" "you made me who I am today" "never gonna be the same" "always will feel this way"; tastes sweet for a second, like relief, then a long slow swell of bitter from entitlement from lack of inclusion and lack of respect...and you sync your experience from focusing on your spouse, tasting them...creating and growing an aversion to who they were when...

In no relation to right now. And I think people do that when they haven't seen their very real power that they didn't know they had back then...and their very real limits. I think we hold onto what we do not own, our part, to grow from. Because Resentment RELIES on us believing that it can protect us from pain...

so if we heal from it in healthy ways, we realize how false Resentment really is...a manufactured power that peters out fast...not what we really wanted, ever...except as a signal we are crossing our own boundary by doing that which we will resent, in ourselves and others.

Toxic to marriage, to growth and change. It degrades and dismisses love deposits...blinds us to acts of love surround us, being given to us...doesn't respect our choices so it doesn't respect your H's choices.

He chose to change, to stop, AND to continue the marriage when he had the choice not to--so as not to face you, to keep following lies...and you chose to let him continue the marriage, too. Half and half...if you're going to dish out blame, be sure you dish out equal credit.

Six years ago I read The Verbally Abusive Relationship...and each time I would see something that I was doing...I would go to my WH (he was in an affair and withdrawal from the A at the time) and say, "Will you listen to this? I'm really shocked"...and then read the part, give examples of when I did that recently, apologize and stop doing it...and same for his abuse...his "forgetting" "silent treatments" "mockery/sarcasm"...not attacking him. Saying, "Hey, what do you think? The author says this is verbal abuse."

And you know what? Our marriage became about REAL forgiveness, understanding, new boundaries and defining in advance our boundary enforcements. We do not stay present for abuse...nor do we walk off without stating the offense and when we will return.

We stopped the abuse all around. We don't live in it, though at times, we cross our boundary with an AO (which is a .1 on the old 10 scale) and still, it's not permitted, not without amends and remorse...because that is NOT who we really are nor how we want to act.

You are totally responsible for staying with a man who continues abusive behavior. That is your choice. You knew this when you married him...that was your choice. At no time did you make him abuse you...you had no part in that. Totally on board with your perspective on it...just not hearing your choices daily, since.

Because you remarried this man, in a sense, when he went to jail and came back after the DV complaint you filed. But then, that's my perspective...because I believe we choose our spouse every single morning we wake up...we choose to love and act from love...or not...so that we choose The Marriage daily.

In the present, not the past. And often, physical abuse will put other abuses in the shadows for your kids and yourself...so you really don't see because the physical abuse is the most easy to define really...and the rest, well, can seem like acceptable outbursts, parental punishments, tit for tat, living in disrespect and not knowing it.

In your responses since your first post, I hear tons of rejection, put downs, assumptions and disrespect for other posters here and your loved ones. All labeled with the title "Any and all comments welcome" when they really aren't.

You can feel defensive...reasonable, understandable given your experiences in your marriage. This is your first experience here on MB...NOT reasonable or understandable. We are not other boards...and what you hear is HALF of what's said...not all or nothing. Like the title, you SEEM to say "I took LA to mean and I hope she didn't" and then you re-iterate that more strongly...when I said nothing of the sort.

You can convince yourself you are attacked when you are not being attacked. I'm sure your H knows this experience as well. In fact you can feel attacked when you're being supported from love.

Your half is as important as his half...his actions and stuff are equally important as your own. The trick of Resentment is that you will focus only on what's coming at you...from him...from others...us...and not own that if you hurt from something said, then you hurt...and it's valid. Does not prove anyone is out to hurt you. You may not even be under attack at all. You sure will experience it as if you are, through your own choices.

And it's a tough habit to break...break it anyway. You're an intelligent, dedicated, amazing woman, Chris. Break your own habits because they are what you are solely responsible for. You are the cause, control and cure for you. My stating that very important human fact isn't saying anything about your H or his actions.

Just you. Realize where you took it and saw what you expected or didn't expect, but nonetheless protected you from looking at your own stuff...what thoughts you choose, what beliefs and perception, the perspective you choose...and your actions, from which your feelings follow. All yours. Just you.

Because you're here. Can't do a thing to your H, understand the filter you have as you...we can support your marriage, anyway...when we know what direction you really want...because a thriving, healthy marriage may not be what you truly want...and if you believe healing devalues, that forgiveness erases, that if you heal all the way through, then your H will do it again (we have lots of secret beliefs)...then you will reject before you consider someone's post...keeps you falsely safe and destroys your relationships with others...even your kids...because Resentment doesn't stop with your H, or you...it keeps going.

It is the generational lubricant handed down so that we keep repeating because we choose to keep resenting.

LA

There are some "voices" on this board which sometimes get testy to the point of being offensive. I hope to NEVER be one of them. But occasionally their posts will be "edited" either by the original poster or the moderators to remove the offensive comment. I was just trying to account for my arrogance and apologize. I should probably do it more often

Consider the topic of physical abuse dropped. It sounds like you handled it the best way you could with very clear boundaries. That is very hard for many people.

One of the benfits of the boards is that so many of the vest have been in really bad situations and have yet made a complete turnaround. One of the reasons I try not to give specific advice on here is that I am not a vet, and I have not shared much of my own personal story. So I don't feel I have the same kind of credibility as Loving Anyway, Melody Lane, or NewEveryDay. I especially have tremendous respect for the vets who were former wayward spouses and have the courage and guts to tell their story of marriage recovery. There are some posters on the Pregnant with Other Child" forum that blow me away with their stories of recovery. It's humbling in the best possible way to be priveledged to learn from the wonderful men and women on these forums.

Some of it is VERY hard to hear. I encourage you to have an open mind. And also focus on what you get in your sessions. You are very lucky to have the means to make that happen. and I wish you all the best on that.

LovingAnyway,

You are dead on about a few things and you are insightful / expressive as well. Thanks for sharing parts of your story which relate to mine and thanks for sharing your opinion.

Yes, of course - I do feel resentment. I resent that my husband abused me physically. He is verbally abusive as well and I am hurt by that & resent that too because although the physical abuse is in the past, the verbal abuse is in the present and we never really resolved the physical abuse...In fact, thinking back honestly - There was a major Love Bank deficit leading up to and (especially) following the arrest.

I did marry him knowing he was abusive & "remarried" him (you put it very well) after the arrest. When I first posted here I said I felt like I made a mistake with that.

I am not sure where I put anyone down here. I have my comments saved and I just don't see it. When people in my life approach me and say "Hey - I didn't like when you did / said abcde" - I am very open to it and I want real connections with the people in my life, so I am not afraid to apologize, make things right, and cease & desist with what I did to offend. Yes - in my life I am known for standing up for my self and yes I have strong opinions & semi firm beliefs, but I never reject new information or good input from other people and I am not ashamed to follow the example of people who have figured out how to do things the easy way / a better way / the right way.

Honestly, the only "conflict" in this discussion came from me rejecting what you seemed to be saying about the abuse. It seemed scary to me that someone here seemed to be saying I need to think about what part played in getting beat up by my spouse. That's it. But you said that isn't what you meant. Actually. if i'm being honest - the part I played was by staying with him after it happened the first time and marrying him with the full knowledge. If I could turn back the clock would I undo it? I don't know - I suppose it depends on how it turns out.

I am very eager to read other people's perspectives / opinions / experiences on this. You don't know me very well and it's very possible you're transferring at least some of your own feelings onto me and what I write. I am not an expert so that's just my guess / opinion.

I said it before but I'll repeat it - I am hoping to address my part in all of this because that's the part I can actually address. I want to be a better spouse and partner to my husband and I want a healthy marriage and a happy life. There is nothing which "protects" me from my part in messing things up. Although my husband has done some inappropriate things, I do not hold myself blameless in this situation & I did not come to this forum or purchase sessions from Dr Harley to have everyone tell me how horrible my husband is and how right I was / am. So very serious about that.

Resentment is the elephant in the room in our marriage but can't that be said for most (if not all) distressed marriages? ...Resentment at unmet needs, resentment about Love Busting activity, and in my case & his - resentment about past abuse / present abuse / being arrested. (I hated typing that.)

Dr. Harley and I had our first session this morning.

My first "at home" assignment from Dr Harley was to let DH know we had the session and that is was eye opening for me. I did that and, as Dr Harley suggested I then went onto "the question"..."The question" to pose to DH was: Wouldn't you agree that the ideal would be to be in love with the other parent to your child & have that person as a friend and companion?

Dr Harley said that the only way someone would say "no" to that question is if they did not understand the question, but he prepped me as to how to respond in case that happens.

When I posed the question, DH shook his head negatively and said "NO". I said "I understand. But please think about this...Divorce is very destructive...it will affect you, DS, me...financially, emotionally...Would you at least consider talking to one of the coaches on your own like I did? If you do, I wouldn't take it as a commitment or a promise for anything. It would basically be research to see if there is anything we can do about our situation" He said he would think about it. He also said that staying "in it" while unhappy "just to stay" is not good. A few minutes later we were alone again in the bedroom and I told him I was curious about what his "ideal" was since he said it wasn't what was mentioned before. He shook his head again and said "I don't want to talk about it." But he did ask - Is that something I am supposed to discuss with you or the coach? I replied that I was just curious. He told me that he doesn't deal in "ideal" he deals in "reality" and solving our problems doesn't seem realistic. I said I understood the difference between ideal and realistic ...the 2.5 kids and the home with the white picket fence is The American Dream. He said he used to have that dream... and then he grew up after Mary (This was his ex fiance who he got into debt with). He said that if our problems are going to be solved it would need to be based on reality, not fantasy. I asked him if I could check with him in a couple of days to see if he wants to speak to a coach.

I don't know what's next and I am once again filled with dread. Dr Harley says to chip away at their stubborn refusals, but my husband is extra stubborn and seems hell bent on divorce (or does he? He said he didn't want to talk about it but he did open up to me a little didn't he? ... SO confused) Still, I am afraid that he will not agree to talk to Dr Harley, and then all will be lost.


I am also confused because my husband has been confiding in me about a horrible person he is dealing with @ work. He also is proceding with home items and our family budget as if there is absolutely nothing going on. (It's torture!) Maybe he is trying to keep things calm until we get our mortgage modified in July? Another thing he is doing which frightens me a little: He is becoming EXTRA loving to our son...I mean really laying it on thick and then stealing glances to see if I am watching. I don't know what to think about this behavior. Have any of you seen this before? Any insight as to what is going on from this persepctive. Someone please give me a clue.


Also, I was looking at some townhome communities nearby and wondered what it would be like to live there with our son & without my DH...I made a list of logisitic type questions to research how things would work for separation / divorce. Why did I feel compelled to do that if I am working with Dr. Harley? Should I do that research? Will it help me feel better or is it working against what Dr Harley is helping us with?

Help!

ETA: DH just "invited" me to watch 2 movies with him tomorrow night. Sigh...now I am really confused.

I'm going to need valium, aren't I?

Chris, I think it's great that you are gathering information to make as informed decisions as possible. It will bring you more freedom and peacefulness about whatever decisions you make. This to me is the opposite of the victim role, replacing those old tapes with new choices.

This is just my opinion, but it could be he's trying to be the "favorite" parent. Pretty immature for someone who is trying so hard to live in "reality".

I would just ignore it and be the best parent YOU can be.

It's funny to me that your husband talks about reality and fantasy. I have found that we sometimes choose to live in a world of fantasy that is very dark and hopeless and convince ourselves that this IS reality. Just because the fantasy isn't sunshine and lolipops doesn't mean it's not a fantasy world.

Rejecting the "ideal" in lieu of "reality" is just a cheap justification for not having to do the hard work it takes to strive for the ideal.

Thinking,

Yes...I can see how it would seem like he's pretending in front of our son that all is well and may be trying to become the "favorite parent". If that is the case, I am not sure how he thinks this will play out in the event of a separation. Growing up, my best friend's father divorced her mom and did the "favorite parent" thing with gifts and money. I wonder if he would do the same thing based on what I am seeing now. My friend seemed to like it and she showed of the things her dad purchased for her. Thanks for your suggestion about ignoring it and continuing to be the best parent I can be.

Everyone,

I am trying to keep the negative emotions and negative observations at bay, but here's something else I was thinking: I instinctively knew DH would respond to Dr Harley's question negatively (though Dr Harley stated that few people would (insert BIG sigh of despair here) and I "knew" it because I think, generally speaking, my husband has an external locus of control & tends to view things negatively. This is something which I did not pick up on until we had been married for quite some time.

He often makes "I'm not going to worry about it because there's nothing I nothing I can do about it." statements in response to several types of situations...whereas I am a more "Let's do something about this." or "Who can we talk to about this?" type of person. Over the years a little of the idea of not worrying about what you can't control has rubbed off on me (from him) and helped me become a little less worrisome - so I think that's a good thing. And my "go for it" attitude has rubbed off on him in terms of him completing his college education. Again, I perceive that as a good thing.

Discovering these differences about us was not pleasant for me. I never imagined I would be with someone who has a negative outlook on life and it does bother me. When I realized this, it finally made sense to me that his general mood always seemed to be determined by mine. I don't like having such a heavy "responsibility". I have to be bright & cheery if I want him to be bright and cheery too - but sometimes the "mood transerrence" was unstable (he could still become easily aggitated) and if I am in a bad mood it easily transfers to him.

Has anyone had any experience with this? What coping strageies are there?



Editted because I wanted to be clear: I used the word "responsibility" tongue in cheek.

But does doing this (gathering the information) at this time mean that I am not fully committed to making things work? Is it harmful to the state of mind needed to maximize the outcome of my (hopefully soon to be our) sessions with Dr. Harley?

I guess what I am getting at is - when people draw up pre-numps when they are getting amrried. I sort of looked at that as a negative thing...I saw it as beginning the marriage with the assumption of divorce.

I think you could justify either mindset. I can share with you how I personally have been handling that issue.

For me, it is very important that I stay in the now. For my entire life I have been making plan B, plan C, plan d, Plan E, ad nauseum, all the while not living plan A to give it a change (I'm not talking the MB "plan A/Plan B"). I get so caught up in trying to plan for all the various scenarios that "could" happen that I forget to give my energy to what "is" happening.

If I were to aplly this to marriage, if I put my energy into planning for a future of separation or divorce, or a lifetime of choosing to stay together unhappily, then I am really not doing much to live in what is happening today.

For me personally, I must do my best today and trust that if each day I do my best (even if my best really sucks), that eventually I will live myself into the correct answer for the future.

There's a great quote from rainer Maria Rilke that talks about this, "Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions, and perhaps even without knowing it, you will live along some distant day into your answers.�

I know that's very "esoteric" when we are talking about real world questions like, should I stay or go? Should I prepare or not?

My question to myself at times like these is to pray about and ask God what the correct answer is. If I get a log diatribe, I know that's my self-will talking. If the answer is short and sweet, that's more likely God's will, though not always. I'm not sure if you are a religious person or not, but again, this is what helps me with questions like that where I'm projecting into the future.

My spouse's father did the same thing (divorced family). He was deiniftely the favorite parent during childhood, but there is very little relationship between them now that adulthood and parenthood have taken the blinders off somewhat. Spouse's father was/is an alcoholic and was always the "fun" parent. My spouse now resents fatehr for being a "friend" instead of a parent.

What makes you think his mood is YOUR responsibility?

I don't. I should have put that in quotation marks...It was a tongue in cheek thing.

Will fix...

OK...I still feel like crap. DH has not told me what he decided as far as speaking with Dr. Harley, yet he's having a contractor come to the house this weekend to see about building an addition onto the shed in the backyard to get his motorcycle out of the garage so I can park my truck in there when I am able to drive myself again in a few weeks.

I really don't see the point of 1) running up more credit card bills and 2) building anything onto anything if we're separating and then divorcing. For me - it's mostly # 1.

It was only Wednesday since he agreed to consider speaking with Dr. H, but it is still torture. Every morning I re-read the Emotional Needs info & try to meet as many as I can each day, but it isn't easy because I am hurt & confused. I have noticed DH's attitude & demeanor improving, but I am skeptical about how long that positive shift will last.

I am not sure what I need to do next. Yesterday, I sent an email to Dr Harley asking what to do next - schedule myself for another session, wait X number of days before bringing the Coaching up again, etc...

Someone's signature said Recovery is not for Whimps...Good grief, they are right.

One thing I'll say though - there are lots of people online promising to save marriages. Many of them seem to advocate the doormat method. I don't see how anyone could live that way...always eating poo from their spouse, etc. Dr Harley's methods seems to be about healthy negotiations and cooperative living. For that I am grateful...even if a marriage doesn't work out, the skills conveyed here are very useful for having healthy and satisfying relationships.

Still upset & feeling badly...

I hope I can make it through this.

Some vets on here recommend starting with eliminating LB because one LB can drain the love bank WAY faster than meeting EN will fill it back up. Fix the whole in the bucket first, then work on filling it. Actually, doing both at the same time is probably the best thing, but we're talking about tools we've never used before, so if I'm going to "master" my skill with one of the MB tools, I think eliminating LB is probably the BEST one to start with if I'm working with a reluctant spouse who refuses to participate in the process.

I am glad you don't see MB as another doormat program. I used to believe that it was. I do struggle with some aspects of the program, but only because it involves changing beliefs, and that doesn't happen overnight. Which is why I argue on these boards a lot. Did I say argue? I mean "discuss".

Thanks!

I'll do that too.

LOL!

A LOT of long-time posters recommend the LB first, EN second system, but that has NOT been the advice coming through the coaching center to me. Just because you stop HURTING someone it does not mean they will fall in love with you.

CWMI, What has the advice been to you?

I ask because it totally makes sense to me to eliminate LB first, then work on EN, rather than the other way around, because a spouse in withdrawl is probably already VERY good at meeting their own needs through IB. If I have been LBing my spouse, no amount of meeting EN willm make up for the huge hole in teh bottom of the bucket. Chances are the withdrawn spouse wouldn't even allow me to meet their EN because of their resentment.

I definitely unerstand that eventually you have to do both, plus all the other stuff. But it seems that in a crisis situation or serious withdrawl, the most important thing is to end any bad behaviors.

To understand each other's ENs and create plans to meet them, and carry those plans out! Bad behaviors are practically non-existent if you're focused on doing GOOD ones.

Think about it: if you are working at having good conversation, how likely are you to AO or make DJs? If you're working to meet your spouses need for O&H, are you going to do that by being dishonest? If you're working to follow POJA, how much IB can you do?

I can see how that would work if BOTH spouses are working it. But if only one spouse is working it, then it seems to make sense that I'd need to work on LBs first.

I don't mean to make a debate out of it, just trying to address the poster's situation in which there is a very resistant spouse, in which she can't rely on HIS bad behaviors stopping, or even mutual O&H.

Why do you think it won't work with only one spouse doing it?

What do you think will be gained by eliminating LBs but not meeting needs (yet)? Love?

I think if you have a counselor telling you to do one thing, you follow his/her instructions. In the case of SH, he has you do the ENQ first and THEN, very soon after, the LBQ. He has very specific instructions for how you are to share information and you counsel with him before making a plan.

In your case, I'd go with the general wisdom of the posters here who have done the LBQ (without counseling, successfully), because yes, as fast as you fill up that bucket, you're going to empty it with LBs . So eliminate those first.

cwmi, it may differ with the circumstances. If my H goes on a date night with me, and then approaches SF in a way that would cause me pain, what's the point? I think there are situations where the LBs need to be addressed, to "stop the bleeding" so to speak, and I think in your case, mistaken or correct, I thought LBs would be the place to start for you. Because you are already great at the ENs that your H identifies - special exercise to reshape your body, lots of SF, vegan cooking, great with the house and kids. And when Steve started working with you, he started with the IB, and then moved on to RC, correct?

And oh my goodness girl I know I've talked to you about planning fun RC time and again

lol, ned, I finally got permission from the boss to push that issue, and H is instructed to joyfully participate.

Intuitively, this makes a whole lot of sense.

It seems that simultaneously working on both of these is the way to go...

OK...

Dr Harley called me last night to follow up and told me to just keep chipping away at my DH's refusals, but the convo was awkward & quite brief because DH was nearby.

I followed up with DH today and, though this post is lengthy it is the short version because our conversation was about 2.5 hours... It began with a brief discussion about adding onto the shed. As I mentioned before, I am very hesitant to run up any more credit card bills addng things onto the house / property if we're not planning on staying together. He said from his POV, it makes the house more appealing to potential buyers but he agreed not to take any action on it. Turns out that the contractor was a no-show anyhow. That's how we were able to have such a long conversation. DH said that he has made the committment to care for me until my feet are healed and he would stay in the house until we were financially able to live separately - perhaps a year or two. Lots of folks are doing that. If we divorce now, we'll both be ruined because the loan will be in default. I revealed to DH how this situation is affecting me: I am not sleeping or eating well. I feel anxious most of the time. His small talk with me, elevated attention giving to our son, & invitations for me to go on errands / watch movies with him are confusing and painful for me. Maybe me accepting the end of our marriage will mean that those feelings / symptoms I am having will fade, but I am not willing to live in this house with him for an extended period of time in that state, and if we are divorcing I would want to move on with my life a.s.a.p. We also talked about the requirement in VA of maintaining separate households for a year to get a no-fault divorce. We talked about having a "civilized divorce" where we decide how things will work rather than the lawyers or the judge.

That was the opener...We talked about so many things in that 2.5 hours...

When I asked what he thought about scheduling to speak with a marriage coach, he said he didn't want to talk about it (this has been his immediate response to any attempts at discussing our current state - VERY frustrating!) but then he did start talking. He said he tried 3 times to get me to address the abuse issue (my side of it) on my own so we could move forward together and he is now far too "tired" to try a 4th time. He stated that he is a 3 strikes and you're out type of person. (That sounds odd to me...This is our lives, not baseball. ) He said that he is mentally & physically tired, although some mornings he wakes up thinking he wants to try and other mornings he wakes up and thinks he doesn't. I asked him plainly if he has feelings for me at all - the feelings a man has for a woman. At first he said he didn't love me anymore and that shocked me. I must have looked hurt because he immediately apologized and said he can't say he doesn't love me anymore but he does not LIKE me anymore. I said I felt the same way and that we've both made massive withdrawls from the "Bank of Like." He said that love isn't enough to keep things together, we have to like each other too. That's the glue. I said that it's so incredible he put it that way because that's the same things which are being said here & I believed that liking each other was possible again becasue of the info I found here & from speaking with Dr H.

I pointed out that since we will not know the status of our loan until July and we have to be here in the house together anyway, what's the harm in doing a little research to find out if we can change our situation in the meantime? He shook his head negatively and said it's too late, he is just not willing to try. Then he talked about the cost ($195 per session) & how Dr H was probably all about money. I countered that a divorce is more costly - financially & emotionally. I said I know he respects my opinion & he knows I don't fall for games...I sincerely feel that Dr H can help us because he has dealt with thousands of couples just like us.

During this conversation, DH admitted without any prompting from me that he had simply exchanged physical abuse for verbal abuse (his words). So interesting --> For the first time I was able to speak openly to him about how the abuse made me feel and the fact that he is verbally abusive now. I explained that I was in a very dark place as a result of the abuse. He made lots of specific references to things that happened year by year for the past 4 years, mostly pertaining to me resisting therapy & counseling. He said he is / was not satisfied with my efforts at adressing the abuse on my own. He said he asked me to do that so we could then see someone together. I did attend group counseling with other abused women two years ago. I came back from a few of the sessions and told I did not like what was happening in the group because the focus seemed to be "How do I get rid of this guy. He is still abusing me & doesn't think it's wrong." instead of saving marriages. Many people believe that abusers don't change and that the way to deal with verbal / physical abuse in a romantic relationship is to end the relationship. The couselors running that group definitely thought this way. I explained that this is why I thought Dr H & the info here was so wonderful. The goal is to save marriages. He maintained his position that I did not attempt to address the abuse adequately from my side, and kept shaking his head and saying that "it's too late" and "I just don't feel like trying." Plus, he said, the only reason I am so interested in doing something proactive now is that I know "it's going to end soon." He said he is very angry about me not doing this back when he suggested it. (Said this many times in the conversation.) I explained to him that I was very proud of him as a husband and that all the statements I made about what a good spouse he was to my family and friends only served to isolate me when I needed someone to talk to about the abuse. I said I kick myself everyday for not being ready at the same time he was but can he not forgive me for that & see that I am ready now + join me? I said I stll loved him and was committed to making our marriage work. I was finally in a place where I had good information and, yes, it was a big thing - to hear my spouse say they want a divorce.


He said that he thinks I still have to work through my feelings about the abuse and if we are going to stay married and re-build our marriage I would need to address that. I agreed with that (and I took it as a hopeful point because now he was using the word "if" instead of finalities. In fact, towards the end of the discussion he made lots of "if we are going to stay married" and "whether we decide to go through with the divorce or stay married" statements.) I discussed how I had started seeing an individual therapist before my feet were operated on... and the only reason I wasn't currently seeing her is the logisitcs of all the medical appointments related to my feet. I said intend to continue to see her in a few days when I am able to drive myself.

DH said he thinks this is just lip service & he can't let himself believe or think that things can / will change. We both agreed that this has more to do with him than with me. When he brought up the fact that he concealed his financial situation from me in the beginning of our relationship & that he did not see any way to get out of the financial situation... but he eventually did get it resolved with my help, I took that as an opportunity to say that although he couldn't see a way out of our current situation, there may be a way because we have good info and a plan. We talked about staying in an unhappy marriage for "the kids" and how we both promised ourselves we would never do that because of the unahppiness for us as individuals and because of the damage to the child. Children aren't blind. But I did ask what would be wrong with researching / making an effort / trying for the sake of the kids? Not to stay for the kids - but to "try"..What difference does it make why you try to do something positive as long as the outcocme itself is positive and you are successful? I gave the example of trying to lose weight because you are going on a cruise & want to look good in speedos, trying to lose weight because your lab tests came back saying your cholesterol levels are near fatal, or trying to lose weight because your brother keeps making fun of your weight. Whichever reason you pick... you go ahead and start a weight loss program & if you are successful you lose weight, feel better, and look better. I said it wouldn't be wrong if he used his love for our child to give him the energy / motivation he needs to try one more time. I said I am using the fact that I love him & want to save our marriage plus the concern about our child as my motivation for trying.

We talked about the concept of dishonesty in our relationship and made a few honest statements about our feelings, behaviors, and unfair / damaging actions towards each other & our marriage over the years and now. I talked about how I have engaged in some behaviors identified here as Love Busters and how eye opening the info and the session with Dr H was for me. He talked about some of the dishonesty he engaged in and how embarrassed & disappointed in himself he was about certain things which had happened.

By the end we both agreed that this was a good conversation. I said I thought it was good because we were honest. I asked him to come back and talk with me more when he's ready. I felt I had to take that particular approach because one of the things DH revealed to me about what he doesn't like is that when he says he doesn't want to talk about something, I insist on talking about it. He seems to have forgotten what stonewalling is or that stonewalling is not a relationship building action. In his Domestic Violence class they said that he should tell me he doesn't want to talk about the subject but then tell me that he'd be willing to discuss it later AND THEN make an honest effort to actually discuss it later. Recently in our marriage he does the first thing very well and the second & third very inconsistently. Still, I said that despite my anxiousness about this I would wait for him to come to me and talk more.

As far as Dr Harley's instructions: I did re-introduce the idea about talking with a coach several times in the discussion. No dice and now (as described in the paragraph above) I am stuck in a holding pattern waiting for DH to "think" + hoping he comes back and talks with me about this. My fear: As I said before, my DH seems to be a more negatively oriented person - especially right now because he is unhappy with things and he is in physical pain quite a bit of the time. I fear that he will simply think himself into more negativity although I respect that it's his right to think however he likes. DH claimed he has looked at this site, yet he is still extremely skeptical about Dr Harley (Direct quote: "What makes him qualified to judge me?" + He's just after money.) and very skeptical about my committment to becoming a better spouse ("Why were you not ready when I was ready?", "It's too late now." and "You're only doing this now because you know I am going to divorce you.") I am at a loss as to what to do next other than work on LB and EN and hope for the best.

Does anyone have any observations or suggestions for me? It's very difficult to deal with a spouse who is in withdrawl. Did I make a mistake by even having this conversation or by agreeing to wait? When he first said "I don't want to talk about it." should I have removed myself from the room immediately & then tried again another day? In a way I'm glad we talked because a lot was revealed and in a way I feel "safer" because I got some info / insight into his thoughts, but the fact remains that some of those thoughts make me wonder about him, I am in a holding pattern once again, and he's still "thinking"...We're not cooperatively implementing any plan to save our marriage.

Here's an exerpt from the LB Questionnaire page (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html)-->



Looks like I was putting the cart before the horse

Chris, wow, I can't believe you did this, got into this conversation, stayed focused on your feelings and behaviors and what you are enthusiastic about and not. I mean, I can believe it, you have showed a deep understanding from the beginning, but all I have to say is, wow, you really carried yourself with grace, and gave your M a huge gift of your perspective today. What would feel like an appropriate way to celebrate this huge step, alone or with your family?

I mean, there are huge things there from your H, too, wow, what a gift, to have that clarity for even a moment from such a swirl of confusion, anger, resentment. Maybe a peaceful Family Fun Night together?

I thought I had seen that quote somewhere. Perhaps SH follows a different game plan when counseling with him. I know I was a bit surprised he instructed us to share our EN questionnaire before the LB one. But then when I thought about it, it made sense, because he was very clear that we were sharing/exchanging information ONLY and not making a plan. We were to talk with him again. We haven't done that yet, but I'm predicting he'll have us work on the LBs first. Perhaps that is where you became confused Chris?

So definitely then, LBs before ENs. You can't fill up a bucket with holes in it.

Congrats on the convo w/ your husband.

Celebrate together? Doubtful NED, I mean - we're not there yet...My DH is IBing in front of the television at the moment & seems a little annoyed again.

I realize that he's moody & I know why: He is a person who is unhappy about several aspects of his life including our M. He stated - no peace @ work & no Peace @ home = no peace and no refuge anyplace. Check.

I also read this thread ...especially Star's post about her DH feeling that the changes were temporary and decided to "clean up my side of the street"...Not sure how I will do that yet - need more thought and I am going to peruse some of the books / CDs this evening....perhaps I'll also try to complete the LB Questionnaire from what I gather his perspective to be and work from there.

Again, my DH is in withdrawl, although he did tell me something which I did this evening which annoyed him. (Signs of emerging into "Conflict" stage?)

In that same discussion I mentioned above, someone expressed the opinion that "You can ask but that's about it. Any wheedling, nagging or otherwise trying to 'educate your spouse' falls firmly in the DJ camp, according to the Harleys." So I am conflicted about the conversation. I am asking myself: Was I wrong to relate so many points to MB principles & Dr. Harley? GAH! What do you guys think?

I am trying to be positive and trying to remember that even if this doesn't work out, the skills I learn here will make me better prepared for any future relationships (I worry whether I can find love again at 38 and being a single mom...is that stupid?)

Yep - holey bucket. Check.

I'm so happy for you that you are working this with your spouse. Actually, I envy you


Thanks.

Chris, my main thread is called Am I Off Track? Because I thought if I just worked the program better, more "On Track," my marriage would fall into place. MB was yet another set of standards that I was holding my behavior to.

Four years later, Chris, I would tell you, it's not about having the perfect conversations with the perfect point lists in the perfect order. It's about loving on your marriage using these tools here, the O&H, thoughtful requests, respectful persuasion, POJA, meeting ENs. That's what you did today, hon, all of it. You shined.

Thanks NED. I'm going to check out your thread.

This morning I am awake too darned early. I have been on an emotional rollercoaster riding back and forth between numbness, hope, despair, frustration, & fear and I do not look forward to my day existing like this. I realize I am not the first person to go through this, but I still feel pretty bad. It is difficult to concentrate at work. THIS SUCKS.

I am still relatively dependent on my spouse for assistance - driving me to medical appointments and to + from work, helping me in and out of the shower, and giving me an injection each evening. Could this be part of why he is feeling like he is "done"? During our discussion I asked him about this and offered to try to gove him space and commute with a friend (have a friend drive my vehicle). He was very much against that...he cited the extra gas costs and the car insurance. He also stated that sometimes he needs to vent about work and he "uses" me for that. Um...I did not like how he put that but it could have been just a poor choice of words. I have a medical appointment coming up soon and I am hoping that I will be cleared to drive by myself. That may end our joint commute and give him more time alone to "think".

We stopped sleeping in the same bed a few weeks ago (when I got home from the hospital) because I have to sleep with my left leg elevated. It will be interesting to see what happens when that is no longer the case. We have had bouts of not co-sleeping before, for example... after operation number 1 where the other leg had to remain elevated and then there was the time period before he got his CPAP machine for sleep apnea and the snoring prevented me from getting any sleep. I noticed that when we were not co-sleeping things seemed to get worse between us. I am thinking part of that is that, for him, the EN of SF went to zero during those times. Anyway, we have the CPAP machine now & the feet / leg issue will disappear forever over the next few weeks.

At this point, I am going to try to go back to sleep.

Today, we spent some time together:

DH was outside & I decided to just get on my crutches and hop out there too. We talked about the yard & about his motorcycle, I complimented him on some painting he had done out there...just small talk.

Next he found out a certain cellphone may be available @ a really low price and was super excited to go and buy it. He wanted me to go. This is a problem (LB) for me...not sure which one though...maybe someone can define it for me: I feel that he uses shopping as a form of therapy. He seems happier when he is about to shop and while shopping. I feel that rather than deal with problems head on, he shops. This is part of the reason for our credit card bills together and likely the reason for the debts he hid from me when we first started out.

Initially I resisted and said, "If the only way you can enjoy my company is to buy something, I will stay right here." But, he was persistent about wanting me to go, so I went. During the trip to the store, he brought up the shed addition thing again. He and our son had been out earlier & saw something with potential @ Lowe's. He said that "IF we decide to go with building the shed, we found something @ Lowe's." Since our son was present, I responded "You know how I feel about that." (Recall my post about our last convo where I say I don't want to add onto the house or incur any more debts if we are going our separate ways.)

Later after family dinner which was really nice & comfortable, we spent some time alone talking about more small talky type of things. Schoolwork, the book series he is reading, work...

I felt that we had a "good" day. I asked him that too. I said, "We had a good day today, right?" He agreed.

Not sure where this is going or exactly how I feel about all of this. Right now, he is nice but he could easily become angry and verbally abusive again since it is in his nature. I have ordered the book Women Who Love Too Much which was recommended to me by thinkingitthru in another thread. If this becomes a divorce and I am dating again, I want to make sure I do not pick another angry man. I want to have healthy and safe relationships in my future.

Good day to everyone,

I am still feeling confused and awful.

I made two appointments with my therapist, and the first one is in 3 weeks. Hopefully I will not have lost my mind by then.

I think I will hold off on making another appointment with Dr H. I need to find out what I want. Right now I am questioning myself and my reasons for wanting to stay married to a man who is so ready to walk away from our marriage and the type of man who would inform me of it in an angry way while I was in a physically vulnerable position. I need to find out why I am fighting to stay married to an angry person. I want to desire good things and maybe this is my wake up call that I have something inside me to fix as far as the types of things I want.

Fred in VA said very early in this thread that the Physical Abuse should have been a dealbreaker. There are many people who feel that way & I felt that way until it actually happened to me. But I did not break the deal when it happened. I practically begged this person to stay with me. The big question is: Why did I do that?

I don't know if anyone has some word of encouragement / observations / guidance to give...but I would welcome it.

I did order that book "Women WHo Love too Much" & it's on the way. I also ordered "Lovebusters" and "His Needs Her Needs", but I am SO unsure about what I am doing here.

Chris, I did not leave my physical abuser until I saw that staying meant my certain death. It wasn't until I realized that 'saving' him was not my job, but saving me was. I didn't leave in a heat...I snuck out quietly while he was sleeping and ran, ran, ran...he was arrested several times after that for crimes against me, then eventually moved on to another girl, who he shot.

I can't say why you did it. I can only say that why I stayed so long (which was 10 months) was because I had never encountered such evil before and did not acknowledge that it existed before I met that man. I beleived that everyone had a good core. I was wrong.

Hi CW,

My H has not been physically abusive for almost 4 years; however, he (by his own admission) exchanged physical abuse for verbal abuse. (his words)...

I am confused because the way I see it - he is two people: 1) The abuser (the angry person with the yelling, cursing, and ugly faces) and 2) the good guy who takes care of me and our son. These dynamics are driving me absolutely crazy.

My questions are:
-What if the past 4 years is merely some sort of extended "honeymoon phase" in The Cycle?
-Did he stop the physical abuse because he knows I will call the police? (He said that people don't lose their Security Clearance or job because of physical abuse arrests / convictions. It's usually financial stuff that gets people in trouble. And, to this day he has never looked ME in the eye and said he was wrong.

One person here has said that I need to stop thinking about his thought processes and asking the sorts of questions above...worry about myself, but the mind is an involuntary muscle.

Chris,

I hear you have been and are in an emotional rollercoaster, going between leaving/staying, looking at his reactions to you and your reactions to him. I read your posts, sharing your experience, like the not sleeping together times, marriage seems to get worse.

Which I take you to mean that the co-sleeping together times, marriage seems to get better.

This is unusual or wrong...your awareness of the state of the marriage is important. You said early in your thread that you didn't think that the resentment (the elephant in the room) was unusual, that you were guessing it was pretty common...

and you were correct.

Doesn't change that its toxic.

You ask why you'd be attracted to an angry person...would you consider that part of our opposites attraction is that our partners can express what we believe we cannot? My DH loved that I was so expressive (initial attraction), my verbal acuity...and it was also what became a huge LB to him (verbal abuse). See, he saw me angry at others in the beginning and believed I could never be that way with him...

he was attracted very much to me because I could express his anger...vicariously. And he could still stay "ahead" or "above" me because he didn't stoop to express his anger...

And to me, the same opposite thing was his reserve, thinking before he spoke...understated verbal expression and succinct eloquence (ain't limerance grand?).



And so, too, our undoing...because this was also his silent treatment, his shut out and his lying by omission.

I stopped acting out his anger...and because we both choose to work on our marriage for two years and then decide to call it quits or not, we discovered DH acted out his anger in many ways (and me, too)...passive aggression...learned as I said before, that silent treatment was verbal abuse...and these really are with the Love Busters:


Love Busters Section - Basic Concepts

When I stopped my many LBs, and began to state my emotions, instead of demonstrate, I really changed our relationship...because it's a dance, Chris...you both dance together (even when you feel it's apart)...so when you change your steps, everything changes.

Would you consider your DH may have asked for a divorce when he did because he experience more intimacy in his physically taking care of you? Acts of love do that...and there is love in duty, obligation, keeping promises and it's an intimate choice...

just as your dependency on him may have allowed him to really share what has been in his brain these past few years...where you didn't see how deeply he feared your rejection, felt total blame and fault from you, and saw your choice to marry him, remarry him after the incident and stay as you staying above him, the martyr (which may be why he was so attracted to you in the beginning...as you didn't look like a martyr, but an exceptionally kind, generous caregiver...nirvana...until like the majority of us...when you hit the second stage of marriage, what attracted begins to repulse, becomes intolerable...which is why it's so darn confusing.

We come together meeting ENs we didn't know we had...and in the first stage of marriage, we don't even see what the other does, or what we do, to meet ENs...and there just hardly aren't any LBs (though you experienced physical abuse before marriage...so did my DH experience verbal abuse before marriage and still married me anyway). When we're hit with REAL selves, the all of us coming out more and more over time, that second stage of love feels like we were tricked, robbed, beguiled and manipulated.

That's the beginning of real intimacy. Knowing each others real selves...so your DH sharing his weariness, when he asked you to work on your part...possibly to learn true forgiveness, let go resentment for real, live in the present with him, the new him, and be deeply intimate with him...to know him and allow him to know you new, today...he thinks he asked three times...and feared each time greatly, so that your seeming refusal now justifies him not asking again...

and yet, as you recognized, he really did ask again. Least you seemed to do that right after you mocked him in your head...which is progress. Maybe previously, you mocked him outloud? Again, my DH was in your place, abused...and he was abusive, too...mockery, calling it a joke, was one of the ways...along with the distancing (without knowing when he'd stop distancing or why)...many ways. Examining your own stuff IS an act of love for you, your DH and your marriage. Not about blaming, defining who caused, cured or controlled...

Knowing yourself more...and more. Seeing yourself as the whole, complete person, equally powerful and limited as your DH. That's the important part of partnering...

About your DH suddenly acting better with the kid, paying more attention, then glancing to see if you noticed...please leave room to not know, 'k? I see you do the killer DJs...trying to think up your DH which actively prohibits KNOWING him new, today.

Ask, not assume. Share your perspective..."Here's what I see/think/feel/believe" as your own...with him. Tiny statements...and don't allow yourself to guess or assume...even with years of proof. Because today, right now, you get to choose your own goal...

To really know who your DH is today, right now...or not. It's a daily choice. And celebrate your great choice to talk...and that he talked to you...and he did say, "I don't want to" and then he did. That's not crazy or him lying...he didn't react to his feelings and NOT talk...he stated he didn't want to, and shared with you anyway.

That's your question earlier...I heard you ask "am I really trying to save my marriage or not?" due to your current feelings. Your goals do NOT come from your feelings, Chris. You set your goals from what you truly want (for the parents of your child to be in love with each other, thriving in marriage) and the feelings will follow.

Like your DH...caring, providing, doing for you in what you may see as extraordinary ways right now given your surgery...whether he liked you or not...whether he wanted to or not...he did so and felt closer to you as a result. What he shared may have felt frightening, horrifying, angering or painful to you...step back and see the whole...a lot of parts...and honor yourself to know he shared...

And please stop offering to replace these intimate acts with others...because when we do grave harm, we seek redemption...don't reject his acts of love, accept his choices before you even know his why's...you've been expressing appreciation and admiration for his choices, seems to me, and he likes that very much. And I think, he very much loves you, loves caring for you, and feels incredible exposure to the smallest painful rejection, fear of being decimated by you...not being enough for you.

You have an H working with you, Chris...you said so in your post about the 2.5 hour conversation you guys just had...THAT is working together...see it not as perfection...but reality--that's him working with you, on the marriage. Admitting his verbal abuse...which means you both can come up with a plan for that...admitting yours...sharing your own changes with him, for you and the marriage...

And my DH was a shopaholic. Again, I hear you. I was the miser, the fiscally responsible one...which was an attraction point to my DH before marriage...and many years afterward, became a parental shaming point...he would go on spending binges and I would berate...kept our parental marriage going, our cycles of abuse and justification going...and guess what? He isn't a shopaholic anymore! And guess what? When I stopped my half of the cycle, the parenting, he stopped...

I didn't make him. I just stopped what I came to recognize as my part. Wasn't what I really wanted, anyway. Was not who I really was...complaining I didn't have a man for a H, but a child...all the while I was acting like his parent not his partner.

Embarrassing and very true. Oh, and one last coincidence...I read "Women who love too much" in 1986, on month before I met my DH. That book was the reason I chose to even date DH. LOL.

I pray for you to learn to love with abandon, again, Chris...to experience upward spirals and deep trust in your marriage...even when you don't feel like it with your DH.

I chose to stay for my marriage, for my redemption, when my DH was actively walking away, and I don't judge him for that. I believe it's healthy to have a walking away point...as your very last boundary enforcement. If he had another A, that would be mine. If I did, that's his. And in between, we check ourselves first...to see if we begin experiencing each other as we once were...if indeed part of it is because we are ACTING as we once were...doing and not doing what hurt each other.

There is no type of man...there is the man I married...who is complex, different than the image I'd made up in my head, a new person to me every day...my partner...this human being, changing, growing, aging and revealing more of himself...over time...no type. He was a man with many addictions...and him conquering them is amazing to watch...takes time, me knowing they are NOT about me...and me, my addiction was him, watching for relapses.

I don't believe in an angry person. Part of what we did as children was define our whole being by one emotion...and we are not. We feel anger; we are not anger. In tiny narrow ways, we can kill what we love most, from fear. And believing what cannot be true.

LA

LA,

Wow & thank you so much.

There are so many things in your post, and being that you are writing from the persepctive of the verbally abusive spouse, your words gave me a whole new outlook on what his perspective may be. I didn't perceive his fear of me rejecting him but anger and bullying. I did not consider that I may be attracted to him because I have trouble expressing anger...I say that because when I get irritated / pissed off, I usually say so - just not in an uncivilized / nasty way. Still, your points are very good ones.

One thing which I am unsure about is this:


Logically what you say here makes sense. It's the "no-brainer" question that Dr H asked me to pose to my spouse. Of course, it's the most desireable outcome: for the parents of our child to be in love with each other, thriving in marriage...But my emotions are confusing and frustrating as you said. There's also the idea that a great many people refer to physical abuse as one of the two valid reasons for giving up on a romantic relationship (the other being infidelity) and I said the same thing in the past, yet I was unable to follow through at the right moment. I feel like a coward.

Can I be honest about some other feelings?
I don't feel he felt / feels closer to me by caring for me. Maybe that's a dynamic present in the female brain, but a male's? (Any men want to weigh in on this?) I feel that he viewed / views it as a burden (he has said as much - "It's just one more thing I have to do. I have to take care of our son, you, the house, my schoolwork, etc etc"...) ...I feel that he's doing it out of some sense of duty or obligation. The "I want a divorce" announcement came in a moment of anger - not in a moment of "intimacy." To be clear: I was asking about my medication dosage times because what he had written on the white board confused me, and he went off saying "When your feet are healed, I'm divorcing you! I'm not going through this crap with you again! When your mother comes, SHE can help you in the shower!" I said "But she's not my husband, you are." and he said "I'm not your husband anymore!" ...This was a hurtful and disgusting exchange. I had just been released from the hospital and was confused about a lot of things (hence my question about the meds). Narcotics will do that to you. But LA - are you saying it's possible to experience intimacy and anger concurrently? If so, please explain this a bit more.


What you said here was the most clear for me:


You also said (& I see that now): resentment is toxic, and I want to let it go. I need to let it go.


The LB book will arrive soon. I'll start there while I decide where I am really going with this. A few days ago, I felt like if I could just get him to agree to speak with Dr H we'd behalfway there. Now, I worry that this time will simply be one more thing I am required to forgive & not resent. Plus I worry that I will feel like I BEGGED this time as well. I want to be with someone who wants to be with me, I don't want to have to "make" them do it. But maybe, beyond raw physical attraction, that expectation or want is not realisitc. Logically, I know that people may initially be attracted by our looks but they stay attracted to us because of the way we make them feel when they are with us. And, I haven't been making him feel good to be with me. No matter what I say that is the truth. Which brings m to the LBs...

For now I can work on the LBs + try to change my steps (as you put it ) and see if our dance changes. Maybe if I can focus on that, I can get some emotional calm going at this time.

I do appreciate your responses (and everyones').

Thank you

Would you consider that your decisions to stay, in the past, are in the past? Today, he is not physically abusive and hasn't been. He is verbally abusive and admits it (first step).

So what you choose today, as your goal, is about who you are today and who he is...and I can tell you how normal and hurtful it is to keep seeing your spouse as he was, and yourself, as you were. You felt like a coward. You are not a coward now. Seems like you're really examining your past decisions.

Resentment isn't a battle because it's simple. It's an ongoing battle for most because it's tricky, manifesting in different ways--and it does so because for each path to it that you recognize, it creates another path you don't recognize...

until you do.

Here's some of the ways I have recognized over the last six years in myself...one, I allow my thoughts to repeat questions I've answered...my own why's...there I am, choosing the same thoughts, dwelling on something in my past, even after I had done that mental dance and gotten to acceptance that what I chose then I would not choose now.

It was my Resentment trapping me...and in my old ways of not holding to my goal to stay aware, I quickly sink into what happened before, taking my senses off what is really is now.

Resentment harms everyone...it's a poison we take, wishing the other person would die. (WhoDat said that here on MB originally, from altering a Harold Kraus quote.) It poisons the marriage...and we can figure out where we are creating and maintaining resentment in ourselves, hence, in the marriage. And we can stop. Make new goals. Live in a new way. And yes, we can slip back...which is why I think MB saying to POJA everything...to ask for your spouse's help as you battle your sneaky Resentment is essential. It's not what you want...not really.

Reasonable that your emotions are confusing and frustrating. They are a direct result of your actions...and your thoughts. I don't believe you want to live in the past. Just your Resentment wants you there, wants to keep you there, dogging you, telling you that you were wrong, a screw-up, missed your chance. Which leaves you very unsteady today (perfect to keep the resentment brewery open and doing business). Resentment is healthy when it's a signal to you about your actions in the present...it is toxic when it's in the past, invading your present and tormenting a future that isn't real and isn't really here.

To make a decision now, for yourself, ask yourself the same question...can you imagine a better scenario for you than to be in love with your DH in a thriving marriage? For you, that would take him rebuilding your trust, and you, rebuilding your own trust in yourself and your choices.

You can do that. You are capable and so is he...you are brave, strong and learning...you're studying how to live differently, gathering a lot of information. Choose your goal and make a plan to that goal...there's no downside. No matter what happens, you'll know you truly did everything possible for the marriage. In the process, you will heal the coward you perceived yourself to be.

I'm like you about believing that my DH doesn't feel closer to me when he acts from obligation...rather, past tense. I discounted and dismissed a lot of his choices (part of my deep disrespect) because of my resentment...it was projection on my part...because when I acted through sacrifice, which was my martyr/abuser keystone, I called it duty, obligation.

Easy to see where that would seem reasonable instead of harmful and destructive now.

Resentment is sneaky like that...because it takes a truth and hits close to it, calling one thing something else...don't fall for it anymore. See, there are three parts of your marriage...there's your half, your DH's half, and The Marriage. The Union. What Resentment doesn't want you to know (makes every thought about the other person in the marriage) is that you can honor The Marriage even when you don't FEEL like honoring your spouse.



Helps to break the "I feel therefore I act" backwards routine that Resentment thrives on...because Resentment has control when you react to it...it's powerless when you don't.

So it depends on you feeling and then reacting. Instead of thinking and choosing your actions...then understanding the feelings that follow.

Which is why MB is pro-active...Take action...do, not because you feel like it...do and your loving feelings will follow. Helps us get turned around in the correct direction...and beats the heck out of living backwards, from our feelings.

Which is why I probably heard in a previous post that you were questioning your goal based on your feelings...like you'd picked the wrong goal because your feelings were frustrated and confusing.

I retrained my brain with the policy of Radical Honesty. In my verbal abuse, I would make a lot of "you" statements when I thought I was asking for information (my DJs did this)...in example, "You're just taking care of me out of duty. I'm a burden on you and you hate me, which is why you want to divorce me."

Instead...my first steps of injecting true respect into my half of the marriage, the statement would have been, "I am afraid right now and feel as if I'm a burden which you hate, which is why you want to divorce me. I'm assuming you're taking care of me out of duty and obligation. I know behind these feelings, I hate being dependent, not in control, right now, feel vulnerable and feel loved by you deeply right now, when I remind myself to just see your actions as solely your choices."

All up to my own radical honesty inside and with my spouse. My DH was a huge part of helping me ridding DJs from my mind...which are an integral part of Resentment (I think it's their favorite LB tool). I asked him to help me stop love busting him...to stop disrespecting him, abusing him. And he did. To me, an act of love...a brave one.

I hear your DH saying "I want you to love, admire me, appreciate my actions...I'm blowing myself away with all I'm able to do right now, to accomplish. I want to hear I'm your hero, I'm a good man, a worthy husband. All I hear is criticism, that I can't change from a bad man into a good one, that you will live in the past and keep rejecting my love." Ask a few H's here on MB...they often experience their wives as constantly rejecting them...themselves, their actions, because their wives are determined to NOT share honest and open admiration, appreciation, awareness for their actions. Because often, one partner is focused on what they lack...and their focus grows it bigger so they can't see how they live in abundance. Lack blocks.

He can hear you as constantly critical, putting him down, degrading him when you are not doing so. So asking him for your own clarity, unless you'd established a solid record of NOT second-guessing him, double-checking his decisions, not trusting him to do the right thing, won't be heard as you intended. Only you know. I'm telling you that in my experience, when humans abuse, they are afraid. Their experience of fear is VERY real...they hear put downs, feel attacked, degraded and less than others...and it's really tough to hear in our own ears what they hear in theirs.

The beauty is that intimacy, the four rules of marriage, can get you both there. Because your DH can blurt out the divorce desire in a moment of intense pain exhibited in anger...and yes, it can be intimate.

Conflict is the second state of mind in marriage, closest to Intimacy for that very reason. Sometimes anger can spur honesty after years of lying by omission...which is the pattern of allowing resentment to grow from our own choice to NOT speak, not ask for our spouse's help, to not say "this is an LB to me"...

Much better to follow the PORH instead, though. No build up, no acting out...and I heard in your post that your DH believes he's told you what he needs most from you and that you reject him...have been unwilling to give it to him. Again, not you making him act out, blurt out...totally your responsibility to take that information (that he doesn't want a marriage like the one he's experiencing right now) and examine what you may or may not have done.

And amend it...do the repairs through recognition...only way out of the fault/blame game is ownership. Frees you and him.

See if you can remove your assumptions...like the one that he's doing it out of duty or obligation. Removal looks like this:

He's doing it. He's acting. Stop there. That's reality. Leave it clean and clear.

Have you told him you weren't doubting him when you asked, though you could understand if he head you differently? That you were afraid, and he wasn't making you afraid? That you didn't doubt his competency? That your own issues with control are yours?

See, even in the past can be repaired, slowly, carefully, with ownership...when you strive first to understand, then be understood. I believe your DH really wants you to partner with him in repairing the past (can't undo), learn how to actively forgive...maybe to learn how acceptance is not approval...and really hear each other.

Maybe what you wrestle with is that unbeknown to you, you strive first to be protected, then to protect. Assumptions will do that...my DH struggles with that to this day...because his DJs in his head, what still justify his reactions to his fear, sometimes get the best of him. I gotta be there, to listen for his DJs, inside and out, just as he did for me. I want to be there for him...and I thrive to be able we're still in this marriage, together.

For I was forgiven so much. And my DH says the same thing. Beyond anything that could be justified or deserved...we forgiving and forgiven. That's when resentment shrinks, finally, back to a signal we're feeling hurt and feeling like hurting back...not something we do anymore. At times, something we feel.

You heard in your narcotic haze something very important...and now is the time (you're healing, not hazy) to gently ask for 15 minutes to share..."I was thinking about you saying you wanted a divorce and that you didn't want to be my husband anymore. Did I hear you correctly back then?"

Listen and repeat...and no, you weren't in shape to hear it then...no reason to not clarify or confirm now. If this is true, state it:

"You're really important to me. I want to understand what you say and not assume your reasons for saying. I want to clearly hear and not refute you." That's an amend. Within a goal statement. And it's what you want from him and have wanted your whole marriage...for him to understand (know) you, accept you, not judge your why's...not refute who you are.

Sometimes, what we most crave we are least giving. A signal, not a condemnation.

Connecting through Conflict...not avoiding it, not soothing over or walking around on eggshells...going through, together, honestly, respectfully, not basing our choice to be honest on their possible response. Seeking to really hear, understand, validate and acknowledge...NOT agree or get in agreement with us.

Takes us changing our goals from "My goal is to feel loved" to "I want to act from love in my marriage, as a parent, and in my life."

Healthy boundaries go around ourselves...unhealthy (harmful) boundaries go around others.

The way I let 16 years of resentment go was our MC had us do a resentment timeline. Was really freeing for me...others who have tried it here on MB, not so much.

As for asking DH to speak with Harley again...I would go for Radical Honesty..."DH, I can really understand your not wanting to make falling in love with me, the mother of your child, as your goal. I asked you and I hadn't made that my highest goal, either. I didn't feel like it. I don't trust you or myself to get there. I've thought some more, though, and I have no doubt at all that the path to my ultimate happiness truly is being in love with you, the father of my child, my husband."

I don't think "forgive and not resent" is what you've really been doing, though you have felt as if you were...because Resentment is that tricky...can make "conflict avoidance" seem as if that's not what you're doing...which you now know is "connection avoidance". It's about control, not love. Not what you really want. You want to inject respect, honesty and acts of care into your half of the marriage.

I was a master of self-deception, though, until I really set my goals and went for them. I caught myself rationalizing choosing them...and that's self-manipulation, not honest or respectful. Not even real. "What if our marriage is sunk already, broken beyond repair? All that wasted effort."

Lies to self. No action, thought, word or deed is wasted. Everything has impact, consequences...it ripples. I can sure experience myself as if I don't. And blame it on my DH.



LA

That was great LA. I read it 4 times and I'll re-read it again tomorrow.

I am blown away.

I re-read what you wrote a few times again today LA.

I am struggling with it... a little. I am working on trying to accept his acts of taking care of me and the pleasant conversations at face value and not worry about the "why" behind it.

Today we had a pretty good day despite the fact that it started out with me causing us to leave the house late for work. DH called it to my attention respectfully. I apologized for it and said I would do better. He was skeptical, he said this has happened before..my change lasts about a day and then it's right back to the same old thing. Unfortunately there was also an accident on the highway which compounded the problem.

On the way home DH respectfully told me that it (the lateness) caused a prob for him @ work. I told him I was very sorry that happened to him, I said had been thinking about it all day - especially since I hadn't heard from him. I told him I was hoping he didn't walk into some kind of "ambush" because of it. (The woman he works with right now is an a-hole) I told him I know you said that I change for a day and then go right back to being late, but I'm going to do it this time. What happened was my fault and I am an adult. I will make sure I am ready to leave on time from now on.

I felt that was a positive exchange.

Later this evening, DH told me to get off his computer so I asked "Is there a reason that I can't use your computer? (He wasn't on it.) He became defensive and cursed at me. "I don't give a [censored] what you see on my [censored] computer!" I did not react. I stated I wasn't trying to upset him. I was just bored waiting down here (my bandage was in the dryer), anyway - I wasn't on the computer...I braided my hair, and I am happy now because I don't have to go all the way upstairs.

I felt that I reacted appropriately except that I didn't say "Please don't curse at me." Truthfully it didn't anger me when he did it, so maybe that's why I didn't say that. What I was thinking at the time was: If this doesn't work out - I'll be just fine. However, next time it happens I need to say "Please don't curse at me."

I also said that I was sorry he has to do all of "this" referring to taking care of me and cleaning up etc...He said "It is what it is."

I was looking for houses & apartments online today just to see what's out there. I noticed that renting is a lot more expensive than owning. My thing is - I wouldn't want to be responsible for yard work and things like that, so a condo makes sense. I also did some more work on my logistics / information for separation /divorce. I called a friend and talked about little things. I did some breathing exercises and read an article about Dignity & Grace.

La, wow, thanks so much for sharing.

Chris, you were wondering why you didn't leave 4 years ago. Women in abusive relationships are in the most physical danger at the time of separation. Maybe you knew it would be unsafe for you? When someone is physically intimidating, I think the natural instinct is to calm that person back down, to get relief getting back to some relative safety. What do you think? I understand the wanting to make sense of it, as a part of self-forgiveness.

I don't think so NED...He said he would leave / divorce me when he came home from the police station. From what I have read & learned, abusers will not let go of their partner - ie the abuser doesn't want the partner to leave. In my case, he stated he wanted to leave when he got back from the police station.

What I can't figure out is why I didn't just go along with it at the time and why I didin't immediately want to go along with it now in light of the fact that the verbal abuse continues. Perhaps it was / is because I felt / feel that I don't want my son in a "broken home" (though I know that homes which include abuse of any kind are "broken" too) but that dovetails nicely into the feeling that I did / do not want to be some kind of stereotype: "the Single Lonely Woman of Color with a son." ...Or maybe I felt like I wouldn't have enough money to keep my lifestyle...Or maybe it was / is the humiliation of being abused and then DUMPED.

This happened to me before - sort of.

In college I had a boyfriend / fiance who hit me, cheated on me, cheated on me again, and then broke up with me to be with the second person he cheated with (Didn't know about the cheating until later). Our friends were shocked & flabbergasted. This girl did not comb her hair, shower regularly, or show up at class much of the time. His grades plummeted and his personal appearance changed drastically. He continued to contact me after the breakup, the new girlfriend somehow got my phone number and began to call me to make sure I was out of his life. A little later, he got his mother to try and get me to agree to meet for breakfast (which I did) and then lunch (which I didn't) Shortly thereafter I moved. In California, I had a relationship with a man who hit me a few times and then I broke up with him. I got a friend to come with me to get the few things I had left at his apartment. After the breakup, he stalked me... leaving pictures of me on the windsheild of my car.

So, in two out of the total three abusive relationships, the abuser dumped me (the boyfriend / fiance) or expressed the desire to dump ME (my DH). I have had other relationships where abuse was not involved and most of my romantic relationships did not involve physical or verbal abuse. It was the two I talked about above and now my M = three. But one is enough yes? If I end up in a position to choose again, I want to be a better person and I want to be able to detect abusive men in the early dating stages and definitely before I become intimately inolved with them. The obvious guys I can detect - the ones who are mean to servers in restaurants o customer service people, the ones who frequently lose their temper in traffic, and other obvious behaviors that we can google and discover...But these guys were subtle...They started off kind and loving but I am 100% sure there were signs and I am certain that I was either unable or unwilling to see them. This is the main reason why I am eager to get back into therapy.

LA is taking her time to write inspiring, kind, and very educational responses to me about forgiveness & letting go and I am trying to own that - make it part of my thought process; however, I still feel somewhat "dirty" about it. I am sure some people are reading my story and asking themselves why the heck I would choosefight for a marriage with an abusive person (LA please don't take offense)...especially one who has stated at two different points in the M that he wanted out. I am guessing a few people would say that when I BEGGED him to stay after the first time when I called the police - I deserved anything I received after that.

In my current situation so much more is at stake. I have a child, property, and debts with my husband. I am 38. I am not a younger woman without responsibilities. Bottom line, I don't feel 100% good about my wanting to save this marriage and now those feelings are slowly turning into feelings of not wanting to save it.

Today I was ready on time, and I intend to be ready tomorrow and the next day too . My DH thanked me. It seems that our son was making an extra effort to be ready on time as well & DH thanked him too.

Using one of the POJA rules - if one person is becoming hostile / angry stop the discussion & come back to it another time, I reintroduced last night's disagreement about the computer. In an attempt to use some of the communication techniques I am learning here, I framed it this way:


Turns out I misunderstood what he ment to communicate. DH explained he was saying stop doing it (or whatever I was doing)because I shouldn't have had my foot out of the protective boot & flat on the floor - which I would have had to do if I were using the computer. He isn't hiding anything from me. He was able to state this calmly and respectfully. We were in the car commuting to work and he has less of a tendency to become nasty in the car (although it has happened before.) It will be interesting to see if the same dynamic can continue and even improve in other environments - such as the house. I said I understood now.

Anyway...He did not apologize for yelling and cursing at me though, but remarkably - I was OK with that. In my mind I fell short of the PORH because after I said I understood his POV, I did not take it a step further to say: "You yelled and cursed at me" Please don't do that." (Am I now entering Withdrawl?) Then again I could have framed the question above to include the yelling and cursing, but I didn't know how to do that without it being accusatory and eleiciting his shut down /stonewall defense. Maybe I'll be able to be more graceful the next time something like that happens. The concepts here take practice.

Any input is wholeheartedly welcomed. For example, How was my framing? How can I get to the point where I can gracefully include what I left out (my feelings about the yelling and cursing)? As a side note / background info: During our big convo a few days ago, DH acknowledged that he knows I do not like to be yelled at and cursed at. He said that he doesn't mean anything by it and has stated that he simply talks this way. Chris being honest: Not sure I buy it. I have not seen him yell and curse at other people when he is angry / frustrated with them although he has shared stories of yelling and cursing at co-workers or people he supervised when he was active duty.


Here's a separate question about "icky feelings":
As I mentioned earlier, my DH and I were commuting this morning. We picked up a 3rd person so we could use the HOV lanes. Usually the 3rd is a random rider / someone we don't know. This time it was a male who works in my building. He has riden with us a few times already, so they sort of know each other. My DH talked this man's ear off the entire ride. I mean the man barely got in a word edgewise. My DH did not once ask him what he thought as he directed the convo from one topic to the next, he did not do any of the polite conversational conventions such as mirroring, etc. I kept feeling like my DH was being rude and overbearing and & a little desparate even...It embarrassed me and made me a little angry too. I don't know why I felt that way? Any guesses?

My guess is because the rider didn't enforce healthy boundaries.

Which would really hit you hard, right now.

The rider was an equal half in the conversation and he may not have been really listening to your DH. Don't know.

You don't like it when your DH does that to you...and you don't say, "Hold up for a sec. I'm feeling overwhelmed and not heard. Here's what I've heard you say so far."

And maybe you heard DH not mirror because you didn't last night when he LB'd you.

Just guesses.

LA

Oh Chris, I SO feel your pain! I told my counselor how I felt the same way about not wanting to be the single minority mom (among other stereotypes) and questioned why I was so concerned about stereotypes, when all it was doing was adding pressure to stay in an abusive situation where my ex was also increasing our debt at an exponential rate. The longer I stayed, the harder it would be to get out. "Those people" who would "judge me" (and yes, some have since then-I'm not going to sugar coat it) weren't going to pay my bills, take care of my mental health, or help my son recover from the abuse he received. Recovery which, 8 months after I got us out of there, is finally happening.

Not that I'm saying you should pack up and leave-IIRC from other things I've read on this site, there's hope in situations like yours. What I am saying is I wonder if you might be letting the potential negative perceptions of others cause you to act in a way that dishonors yourself.

Contributed through poor boundaries maybe, but DESERVED, never!

Daisy,

It's a relief to hear that my feelings on certain aspects of this stuff are normal. I feel that you are onto something when you say my fear of being judged may have contributed to me staying. I said befoe that I was proud of him as a husband and let many people know I was proud. This only served to make me feel more isolated when I realized there was trouble. Definitely going to bring this up in therapy.

Gradually, I find myself losing interest in learning MB for my M. I am more interested in learning it for myself. Which may actually be progress because it may be the whole point. I am also seeing the unhealthy habits for what they are too..For example, I want to give our child a nice B-day celebration but so far we have spent about $1,200 on a B-day party & gifts for our son, and I am quite disgusted. I think that by the end of this, the grand total will be between $1,500 & $1,700....yet, for DH, marriage counseling is "out of the question" (insert sturgeon face here) & "Dr. H is all about the money." ((eyeroll)). With us being on a forebearance & our mortgage in arrears, is that really smart? As long as I have been with my H, we have been in credit card debt. We used the profits from the sale of our first home to pay off the debts he had when we first started dating and the debts we accumulated together. Then less than a year and a half later, we had the same amnount of credit card debt again! I went along with the cc swiping, so I can't blame him. After looking at this, I vow that I am going to stand up / speak up in the future about using credit whether we stay together or not - if we get separated the joint cc accounts will most definitely be CLOSED. The ones with me as primary will certainly have his name REMOVED.

You are right about digging a deeper hole to climb out of. Right now my share is ~ $23,000 With my salary that's not too bad but it's bad enough to impact my ability to pay rent in a nicer area or buy a condo in a nicer area for about 2 - 3 years. I found a nice apartment community yesterday & the rent is almost $1000 / per month (not including utilities). I could manage that easily if I didn't have to pay all those cc bills - assuming I have to pay half of those...(Yes, I did some math)

LA,

Heck yeah - it bothered me to see that interaction. Part of it is because I really like the person who rode with us and I felt like DH was being rude to him. Plus the bad behavior was freaken embarrassing! The other part of it is that he does this in conversations with me lately. At first I saw it as me meeting the EN of "Conversation"...but it is a bit one sided right now & wearing me out a little. Here's an exerpt about good "Conversation"



From him to me - 2 & 3 are not happening @ the moment. At the end of his catherses, he usually asks how my day went, and I may share something big - main points only - or not at all beyond the surface of "It went well." or "It was OK." because during our big convo he told me that I try to meet my need for Conversation with him a little too much. And so I have been turning to other people to give hinm space. (Truthfully he wasn't talking to me much since the I am divorcing you announcement anyway, and now it seems that there may be an opening or an invitation to return but I have been enjoying conversing a bit more with female friends.)

On the other hand the bad parts described below are not happening (except with that computer thing the other night) either:



Actually, by not giving me an opportunity to contribute to the conversation, isn't he showing disrespect? Then again, I can see that he is so eager to get that stuff out. Specifically - he's been complaining about the things going on at his job while we're together in the car commuting to & from work...He's being being picked at by one of the new people in charge whereas before, he was getting a whole lot of respect & latitude. For example, being late would not have been an issue with the previous person. I see the how this is affecting him and how it pains him (he is upset about it despite his refusal to admit it. He feels disrespected & put down and he is using petty "victories" at work to make himself feel better too. Dangerous!), and he also is turning to me. What does this mean for us? Is he starting to let me back in or just using me as an emotional dumping ground? Not going to think too deeply about his "why" as you said LA...He is being more caring now too. But I know I need to take care of my part of the yelling and cursing vis a vis ignoring / allowing it. Maybe with me setting healthy boundaries on that, it will lead him to make a change. This is part of the MB philosophy...

Thoughts?

I think reading the Conversation article, the information gathering, is a great step on the way to speaking up in the moment. Kind of like when folks learn a foreign language, they understand the language before they get to the stage they speak it.

OK...I'm a little slow tonight. Pls elaborate.

Chris, did you learn a foreign language in high school? When I learned Spanish, at first I could understand when others were speaking, but couldn't respond in Spanish. But as I practiced more, took me a few years, but that's when I could understand and speak. And then I moved out of Miami, and got so out of practice that I understand very little anymore, but that's beside the point

So what I'm saying is that I think you were saying you were disappointed that you didn't speak up in the moment about your H's cursing and yelling. IMO living in the environment that you have, with someone who punishes you time and again (with cursing and yelling) for speaking up, can do that to a person. That's the intent, correct? But you're in a new phase of life, one where you're not going to let yourself get intimidated anymore, because you owe it to yourself and to your marriage to get back into the habit of letting folks know when their behavior is unacceptable to you.

So what I'm saying is that what you did today, posting to a safe place to saf folks about what you're learning, sounds like a great step in the right direction, to get tot the point where you do tell your his cursing and yelling are unacceptable. It may be reasonable to wait until you're at a point where you are more mobile before doing this, I trust your judgment.

Is that a little better?

I felt the same way when I first stumbled onto this site.

My husband and I did Financial Peace University last year. I'll admit, I've been a slacker about budgeting and saving, and we have not been making debt elimination the priority it could be. That said, we have not used credit cards in a year, and I think that is one of the most life-changing things either of us has ever done.

You shared before that your husband doens't think he can do the Dave Ramsey thing because of not having a steady income. That may be. But that is no excuse for not cutting up the credit cards right now and starting to pay cash for monthly expenses. In fact, my own personal income fluctuates a lot, and if I were on my own I don't think I could ever keep up with plastic. When you pay with cash, you spend far less because it is emotionally painful to part with our paper money. Plastic keeps us in denial.

Very clear now. Thank you!


Definitely. I believe that I am dealing with someone who may withdraw their help if they get angry enough. And, it will be a few more weeks until I can totally take care of myself and our child physically.

Yes, and I found another person's thread where they said some very inspiring things about making the MB exploration about themselves rather than their M or their spouse. They said that it was difficult because they felt like they were doing all of the giving, and they felt like giving up several times during the process. As a result of their perserverance, their spouse eventually followed their lead and the marriage improved significantly.


Maybe you are confusing me with another member?

It took him about a year or so, but he has a good job now. Truthfully, Our income is nothing to sneeze at. We make a good living. IMO, it's his mentality / philosophy about money & credit which is the issue. To his credit he has slowly made changes. All money in our household is transparent and he is seing how our spending happens because he's had to work on tracking it while I am recovering. Each of us knows where all paychecks go, we created a budget together (which includes a plan to pay down cc debt) & for the most part we are sticking to it. At this point, there are problems with what I call "flare-ups". By that, I mean sudden desires or wants which are not budgetted for. These flare-ups are usually big ticket technology or home improvement items. They may be triggered by a TV commercial or something he sees someone else with. The current flare up includes

1) the addition to the shed (which I shut down by saying I don't feel comfortable running up more debt to add onto a house / structures on the property which I will not keep if we divorce)
2) the Droid phone (which, THANKS BE TO GOD, never came through because when we got to the store it cost too much...but he did get our son a new cell phone / $29)
and
3) this B-day thing...We budgetted for the B-day party (we do each year) but the presents this year were pricey. Our son is less than 10 years old and we have debts - so there is no reason his B-day gifts should cost $1,000. We did not budget for that. A $100 or even $200 gift card to the video game store or Toys R Us would have been more than adequate.

For awhile, I got caught up in his spending frenzy too with handbags & shoes. I had never done it before and it was exciting. I stopped that quite awhile ago because I realized it was trouble.


I think that what you said here is 100% true. And I agree that paying paper money can make people more aware of what they are spending in most cases. I have seen people go nuts with cash too though

Cash, check, or charge - I think it's important to have a healthy philosophy about money.

Today,

I definitely noticed a pattern which may have very serious consequences for me, my M, and my desire to save my M:

During this morning's commute, my DH was in full share mode re/ the dynamics in his office. It was the same story but with different examples of bad behavior from the new person. In fact, most of our conversations during our commutes have been this way since he began "talking" with me again after the announcement that he wants a divorce.

I listened (as usual) & he finally felt safe admitting out loud that the situation frustrated and annoyed him. He launched into more examples of this person's incompetence and how he won some petty victory where he was proved right & she was proved wrong. He also says that he is "allowing" her to make mistakes. Not telling her things he knows which she may need to know too...It sounds like he's doing it so she can learn a lesson. Note that none of these people are engaged in combat or any life threatening thing. Their work is administrative in nature, so the petty victories involve getting the correct signature or not or maybe something like formatting a document correctly / incorrectly.

This time I tried something different - I tried to inject some perspective into things. I suggested that the situation, while not ideal, may be quite temporary because this person is active duty and occupying a military slot. People in that category transfer in and out all the time. In the < 1 year he's been there, he has experienced 3 different people. He shook his head negatively & said she could stay for as long as 3 years. I responded that with all the negativity and tension in the office she is probably looking to make her next move already. She may sense that she has burned a few bridges and created more than a few enemies especially among the males (according to his accounts) and she may be looking to get out.

I asked him if he had ever had a job which he woke up in the morning and looked forward to going to. I figured that was a no-brainer question (everyone has had a job they liked at least once in their lives, right?). My plan was - once he said "yes" I'd to say that she probably feels the opposite of that with all the tension in the office.

I AM VERY SADDENED BECAUSE: Just as with Dr Harley's "no-brainer" question, my DH shook his head and stated a flat NO.

I was stunned.

I recovered and said "Well, I am sure she feels badly and probably wants to leave." He said that that's just not possible. He said she shows no outward signs of being "bothered" by the bad situation. He said that just yesterday at the end of a closed door argument with the entire office, she ended the meeting with a joke and a smile. So, that means she is not bothered. I asked that no matter what her outward facial expressions, can he imagine that she must be feeling tense and uncomfortable because everyone else in the office is? He said NO.

I gave up on that.

I said that I have the feeling that there will be a blow up in the office - just judging by what he says. I told him that I hoped he would not participate in it because that would be a bad thing. He told me there is no possible way that there will be a blow up in the office. At that point - guess what? I STOPPED LISTENING.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! I am SO AT THE END OF MY ROPE WITH THIS MAN'S NEGATIVE ATTITUDE.

The bad thing about this is - it forces me to see how his mind works. I feel that, in a conflict, he is unable to think clearly enough to comprehend the other person's POV. He is *&^%-ing NEGATIVE. He is deluded into thinking petty victories will gain him ground.

As I type this, I can see that I am losing respect for him. I am beginning to think that a divorce would not be such a bad thing.

Please help me!

Later on, fix him his favorite beverage, fetch a nice snack, whatever you can to make it feel like coming from a place of caring, and tell him, "I was really surprised this morning when you said you'd never had a job you loved to go to. I was wondering, why is that?" Ask him about why he chose the jobs he's had, does he has any ideal job that he thinks he would like, what does working mean to him, does it hold any personal definition of self, is it just a paycheck...

I would be fascinated by that. What a great opportunity for intimacy.

(and just so you know, I've worked with people who were vicious backstabbers, and I didn't care. I did my job, I wasn't there to make friends, I was there to make money. The VB were fired.)

Chris,

What I hear in your replies is that


you want to get him to change

you want to get him to stop

you want to get him to do differently...

Specifically, in your reply to my last response, I didn't think you heard me...I think you assumed what I was saying and didn't consider, in yourself, how much you're doing what you hate being done to you...

Just what you hate being done to you.

I see it again in this last post...you hated that he was going on and on about work, his issues with this coworker (making her the problem), where you heard he wanted to be right, make her wrong, even if it meant him doing wrong; that you don't experience him meeting your EN for Conversation because he doesn't listen (validate, acknowledge); and you HATE his negative attitude.

And what I see is the same with you...your issue with your H, making him the problem (and you don't see him as bothered by it), that you want to be right, make him admit he's wrong, even if it means you don't act from respect to listen to him (validate, acknowledge), and I see you centered on him, with full focus with a negative attitude.

Then you ask for help...and posters do their best...and you go right back to what he's doing/not doing.

Which is out of your control. What you control is what I see you not seeing...your half. Intimacy is knowing and sharing your stuff...and you cannot do that when your mind is all over his stuff.

From your posts, I do not believe you want intimacy (which makes marriage incredibly painful)...I don't think you see how mind blowing your statement here is...


Your DJs are killing your connection with the man you vowed to NOT disconnect from, in better and worse times, sickness and in health...

All I see you wanting are petty victories, knowing full well your H is in huge pain...he doesn't want this non-intimate, judgmental, harsh marriage.

You really don't respect your H, but then, I don't think you have for years...because you don't act from respect--that he is truly your equal in every way. He is as worthy, whole and complete as you are...and I think if you make it your own goal to think clearly, not react, eliminate your LBs (which also hurt you and others), and to act from respect, then you would finally be able to enforce healthy boundaries and experience healthy respect, love and trust...

beginning with yourself.

You made those vows to yourself. Marriage vows are boundaries we put around ourselves, our behaviors...they don't read "I'm vowing to make sure you always love, honor and obey me, no matter what"...

I know this addiction, Chris. My focus was glued onto my DH's back until it broke...and that may be what it takes for you, Chris. For you to come awake to really hear your H, what he shares, as his stuff, about him...

You have several signs of enmeshment going on, Chris. Embarrassed by your spouses' actions, not your own. Breaking enmeshment is an act of respect and embracing reality. Divorce breaks it, sometimes, in twisted ways...without ownership, it ensures you repeat your choices, again and again, the cumulative pain becoming unbearable--until you finally do.

Do it in a healthy way, please. You're worth it. Your marriage is worth it. You aren't following the four rules of marriage...you want him to do that. You want him to meet your ENs and to eliminate his LBs...to protect your love bank, and to not know who he is today.

That's what I see...and your "no-brainer" statements cut me to the core...if your H sees continuing the marriage with you, the mother of his child, as just more pain and suffering, then Harley's question wasn't a no-brainer, was it?

He can't see himself in love with you again, can't even conceive of it. He can't imagine having a job he loves going to, hasn't experienced it...and he has a spouse who judges him for it, puts him down and feels disgust because of her own judgments...not him. You're proving his worst beliefs true, Chris...that he is unworthy, horrible, awful, defective human being.

I don't believe that's what you really want. I don't believe that of you.

I do believe it's what you're doing, though. Reinforcing his own self-contempt...which reflects your own.

You have a real partner, a teammate, to grow through this with...both of you can help to heal the other...someone has to go first. And it doesn't seem to me you're willing.

Even when you're inspired.

LA

Chris, you read the conversation article, how about exploring some topics to find some that are favorites for both of you?

Yes. I just don't think it's possible right now. DH seems to be interested in talking only about his work situation, home improvement projcts, and new cellphones.

I am drowning.

How about telling him you have a headache, or you feel like you might be getting a headache? I think that's a pretty RH statement to make under the circumstances. If you get a little respite, it might give you a boost. I would ask my H a question about football, like "How 'bout them Dolphins?" and that he would enjoy talking about at length. And I would read the headlines on the internet so I'd have some other ideas of things to bring up, too. I don't think your H is sounds enthusiastic about moaning and groaning about work endlessly, either, maybe it's just a bad habit?

What do you like talking about at length?

LA,

It was hard for me to read your latest post. I felt 100% terrible. Truth: This process is not for whimps.

I have been working on LB and I did not share those instances. I will now. Please check me out: For the past few days I worked on the LB of Selfish Demands, Annoying Habits, & Dishonesty. I started small because I am a novice. I took ownership of not being cognizent of time and took steps to correct that behavior (score!). I negotiated for DH's assistance with something private. I have been cleaning the kitchen every night and I have been preparing meals as well (in my wheelchair). I handled the telephone portions of the B-Day party planning.

Yet & still, I was very frustrated (angry!) when I wrote about this morning's commute. I am angry that I am even in this situation. I am angry that we are at this point. And now, in addition to being angry I also feel sad and hopeless. I am ashamed at some of the thoughts I had but I shared them here. I needeed to vent. I just started MB (13 days) and although I can guess or try to think of some of the ways to use it, I am no expert and my thoughts have not yet been "re-patterned" to follow MB yet. So - yes a vet like you is going to catch me in the red.

Maybe you are right and I haven't respected my DH for years. I don't really know. But these feelings of disgust did nto start until very recently. I want them to be gone. They SCARE me. Is it unreasonable to lose respect for someone who physically abused you? Stop seeing them as a whole and complete human being? I'm going to guess - no, it's not unreasonable. How about someone who "punsihes" you with verbal abuse "for speaking up" to use your phrase? Again, my guess would be - no it's not unreasonable to have negative feelings about such a person. So, I will not argue with you to prove that I am not DJing and not providing the EN of Respect. I will not argue that you are wrong about me not wanting intimacy. But I think I admitted that I am questioning whether I even want to be with my DH, so that's not exactly a surprise to me. I read before that when employing MB philosophy you act (you stop LBing start ENing) and then feelings will follow...intimacy & love will return. On day 13 & beyond, how can I move forward with that? How can I act so that in me better, healthier ways of thinking take less and less effort & in me feelings of wanting intimacy will return?

OK, so here I am. Negative feelings, tendency towards DJ, anger, confusion, and despair. Please help me. I came here for help - not becaue I am perfect and I know how to do MB.

What I have learned here (painfully) at this wonderful place is that I can only control my part in things. So - intellectualy I know that but mentally and emotionally I need to act that and be that. I desperately want to be that.

The most recent conversation was my attempt to control him...get him to change...get him to look at things differently. You put it in my face (thank you) - I used DJ this morning. Acknowledged.

OK LA, please tell me: How do I get that back - the respect for my DH? Again, when employing the MB philosophy you act and then feelings will follow... What does that look like in the case of the conversation this morning? I want to learn sincerely and I need a few real life examples and practice to add to the positive things that I have done in the past 13 days...

Please help.

DJ...

posting for me more than anyone else.


Since this is an obvious weakness of mine I will read and re-read + consider carefully every day until the LB book comes (and maybe after too) and I will try to remain calm. I was in tears a little while ago.

That may be a good idea. I felt frustrated and overwhelmed this morning when I logged into the MB forum and it definitely showed in my post.


I did that too NED I googled his favorite team and we did have a convo about it & the new stadium yesterday afternoon. This afternoon, I may try asking about how "free agency" works because I just saw that the team was about to start the process of interviewing people.

Politics

Science

Science Fiction

Medical breakthroughs

Military action

Chris, hon, the point is not to feel bad about yourself. It's just more perspective to share, another flashlight to help in your information gathering. Like you said, we can look at what a typical person does in such a situation. It is perfectly normal for someone in a situation like this to make everything about their partner, in hopes of controlling that person's behavior, to make them finally stop hurting you. But that's not where the change comes. The change is in getting your own attention, are you enthusiastic about what you are doing in the moment? It's not an all or nothing thing, it's getting clarity in some moments, gathering information, so you get clarity and peace in more and more moments.

If your son was going on an on about a bad day, maybe you would interrupt him and say something like, excuse me but, Do you need a hug? Or whatever you were enthusiastic about doing. Acting without fear. You will get to the point where you are acting without fear around your H, too. You are doing great, you keep "suiting up and showing up "

Thank you.


Yes - I would do exactly that with my son. I am eager to get to the point of knowing what to do / say when this happens with DH and and also having the good stuff come with greater and greater ease.

Chris...two things...more tomorrow, 'k?


Which is why I know you are NOT a wimp.

And neither is your H. He's still there, with you, Chris. He didn't say "I want a divorce!" and move out right then...and he could have. He can right now. Recognize every single day that he is choosing NOT to do that. Nor are you.

Not for wimps. You are earnest, you can take what I see...even when you vent. Because I don't see you as radically honest...not yet. Venting may be what you do to come close to being radically honest with yourself...and you'll spill it here and not take the next step of distilling a couple of sentences from it and telling (sharing) with your DH.

I think you believe you lie to him by omission because you fear his response...which means you don't hold yourself to your own boundaries...and if you did, you would not fear his response...nor yours. Me showing you the lies doesn't mean you're an awful person, partner...means you're lying right now. And you said you're working on that, so my goal is to help, not to shame.

I believe we stop looking at the source of our choices when we repeat to ourselves our old reasons for old reactions/justifications in choices we make today. "I can't because he won't" may be something you've taught your brain to believe. It's not true. "I choose not to because I am trying to control his response." Doing and not doing can be acts of control. You know they are about manipulation, though, when you're focused on controlling the other person's actions...

So stop believing in the old way. Ask yourself for radical honesty about your own choices...discover yourself again today, right where you are, as you are. To know, not to bash.

And you'll feel bashed, berated, put down...because when your focus is on your spouse's stuff, you are literally abandoning, rejecting and putting yourself down...hurts like heck. I'm asking you to stop doing that. To come home, where you are, and in seeing yourself new today, choosing differently, you will also see others new, too.

Which is reality.

We're going to feel terrible when we realize we have done terrible things, thought terrible thoughts (they do become our actions)...and the result is feeling terrible.

And it passes, 'k? It's healthy...that your signals to yourself that "This isn't what I want! I don't want to react this way."

Healthy shame...not the toxic kind.


She says it so well...really hear this..."It is perfectly normal" for you "to make everything about their partner, in hopes of controlling" their partner "to make them finally stop hurting you."

All abusers believe that they are justified in doing whatever it takes to get the other person to stop hurting them.

Think about that when you are all over H's stuff, 'k? What he does and how hard you try to get him to stop hurting you.

LA

Looking forward to reading more tomorrow.

Well then...

Got in the car and immediately DH turned the radio down and began speaking about the person @ his office. When he paused to take a breath, I quickly asked about free agency. He looked right at me and said "I want to talk about work and YOU want to talk about football?!" Oops! My bad... Where's the smiley for rolling on the floor laughing? Yes - I have to laugh at that. (Sorry LA)

He explained free agency to me and answered all the folllow up qustions I asked on the subject, and then went right back into the topic of his office. (No dice of the distraction action CW ) I responeded mostly with thoughtful nods & "I understand" statements. I asked him what he planned to do. He said he was planning on moving into another job very soon. I responded supportively.

The he asked me about how my day went. I decided to share about a dimwit or three I am dealing with @ work. Again, main issues - not too much detail. Wrapped it up with my plan of action. I felt like he actually listened.

Since I responded supportively and focused on asking him folow up questions about his observations + asked him what he planned to do about his situation instead of trying to get him to think of it another way, I didn't actually feel any anger / frustration during the conversation. (Wow!)

Was that a better way to handle it right LA (and everyone)? Is that how it was supposed to work & feel? If so, (I mean - if I got it right) I am eager to try repeating this with all sorts of things- big and small.

Well Chris, I think it's about finding what you two are enthusiastic about, and since you both are enjoying this, it sounds great

NED, Thanks for your response.

I am thinking that not feeling anger & frustration is way different than "enjoyment"...Plus I am not quite enthusiastic about the subject of problems @ work or jerkity jerks @ work.

Truthfully, I'm shaky about this and I was hoping for more specific guidance about how to work it.

How about telling him, "I don't want to listen to your problems with the folks at work, I'm still recovering from surgery and my nerves are shot. Let's talk about something that we both like talking about." But maybe the time to speak up isn't when you're trapped in a car with him, you are the best judge of your own safety.

What do you think, Chris? You listened and felt heard. You didn't feel bored, tune him out, didn't try to solve his feelings or issues...and you asked about his plan, which is about him. And he asked about you, your day (your experience)...

how wonderful is that? Of course you're not going to feel great yet...you were surprised and you noticed immediately what you didn't feel...which is super! And did you notice your H chose to answer your free agency question after he stated his preference? You might not have because you were mentally rolling on the floor laughing at the time.



Those are gestures of respect, intimacy and love. Yes, tiny, small...and big when they are consistently missed.

Do you guys hold hands during these commutes?

You wow'd yourself...from your own choices. You liked the experience you had...keep it going. Your job is not to solve your H; your job is to love him.

Seems like you did just that, respectfully. Keep that up...because you like what you did, how you did it, and seems like you want to do it again.

LA

Oh man, LA, I missed the boat, huh? I like what you said much better

I didn't see you miss the boat...I saw you advising Chris to begin with enjoying conversation, being proactive, and that's really important.

That's the beginning point. Practicing listen and repeat when it's enjoyable is actually more difficult (for me) than when it's intense or difficult conversation.

lol

So it's a great start...and important...super important that you asked Chris to count herself INTO conversation topics. Her choices mattering as much as his...

No boat missed. You added another boat...or added to the ocean? I dunno.



LA

Honestly, I was laughing here as I wrote. At the time, I was more stunned than anything else.

Thanks for pointing out that he answered my Q first. That says a lot I think.




No. I am in the back with my leg elevated. Even if I was sitting near him, I would not be sure how he would react to me taking his hand at this time. Perhaps in the future. I am thinking positively.



Thank you, I do want to do it again and I will try to do it again.

As LA just pointed out - I agree (and I think you're saying) that it's important to count my preferences in the conversation topics. I don't want to "sacrifice" and then build more resentment.

At this time I am going to give him the opportunity to discuss the work situation because he needs to. He trusts me with it and he knows that I understand. In fact I may be the only person in his life who does. Since I am still his wife, I will provide that - fill that EN for him. For now.

I think it's important for me to know the stage my M & my DH is at - withdrawl. And, Dr. H's writings clearly state that the hill is especially steep for the spouse who hopes to lead the way...change the landscape in the M if the other spouse has reached that point. Another member said that when their spouse was in withdrawl, they felt frustrated and they felt like giving up sometimes too. So, I know my feelings are "normal."

I have to come to the place where I understand and accept that intially, I may feel like I am doing most (if not all) of the work. It's important not to get too wrapped up in that so I don't miss the changes in my DH too. Also, I will have to take these changes at face value since he is not communicating with me about wanting to take steps to save our M. In fact his words were the exact opposite. In other words, he could be becoming more kind to "keep the peac"e until we can divorce or he could be becoming more kind because he has changed his mind about getting a divorce. For now I can't know which is true & I don't have to know. (Very tough for me.) What I can do is: I can work on me.

I also have to accept that things may not turn out in the way I hope even after all of the hard work I am doing and the changes I am making. He may still may feel it's too late and he may still feel that he doesn't want our M. He may still file for a separation and then a divorce.

If I can start thinking in these healthy ways, I will be OK.

I will keep reading and posting here. I will read the books. I also have a friend who speaks as if she's been here @ MB writing some of the articles. I will talk with her and stop talking about this with other people who are not aware of MB principles and who seem to simply agree with my POV.

I just got finished reading Part One of the Love Busters book and OMG! What I posted on 3/11...those things I was feeling were from my "Taker". Also, according to what I am reading - as far as my DH yelling & cursing about the computer... He wasn't in Withdrawl at that time. AO doesn't happen in Withdrawl. He has also been doing something else: He has begun sharing feelings...telling me - "When you say abcde it's annoying." In the Withdrawl state that doesn't happen. He has also been approaching me with bits of trivia, interesting things he read, etc. I am resisting the urge to focus on his earlier admission that he was making small talk in the car to try to reduce tension so our son wouldn't notice something was wrong...and trying not to connect that with what's happening now. Trying, as LA suggested, to accept these changes in our way of interacting at face value. Trying to stay positive.

I have been working on my Dishonesty. I started off small, but last night I found myself tackling something a bit larger: The family $ / finances. I don't think I was totally successful. I shared here earlier that DH is temporarily doing the finances (paying the bills online & recording our spending to make sure we're not veering off the budget) because I was on pain killers. I asked about having that task returned to me & he said that he'd return it to me when my feet were better. I told him my feet have nothing to do with logging onto the computer and doing the bills, I'm not taking the pain killers anymore, & I would like to return to doing that task. But that was just part of it. I did not tell the 100% truth. The part that I left out was my fear. I have read / heard that a spouse who has threatened divorce may start funneling money away from the family pot. Sure, I can log into the accounts and see what's happening & I saw that right now, that isn't happening with us; however, right or wrong - it is a very real fear of mine at this point in time. I did not share that part and I am not sure if it was an appropriate thing to share or what would have been the appropriate way to share it. Since it involves talking about the status of our relationship & our M I held that part back because of how we left things at the end of the last discussion - I am supposed to wait for him to approach me about it.

DH also announced yesterday that we should take a trip to the beach in July as a family. He did this in front of our son. Since stated 2 weeks ago that he wants out, I felt that this was wrong, but I said nothing. (Another failure?) I am just not sure I can do that without knowing what the heck is going on here. Today is our son's B-Day party & it's going to be hard enough to make it through that with a smile on my face. Still, July is pretty far away & things may be different by then, but I'm sure several people here know exactly how I feel right now.

This is scary, disruptive, horrible...I am trying to get my emotions under control so I can have some sanity while I continue to work on myself.

Progress?

Last actually night ended pretty good. I was reading about the first section about Love Busters in the LB book and I came to the quiz portion. My DH agreed to verbally complete the quiz with me. Recall - he previously stated he did not want to talk about our Marriage and he wanted a divorce last month.

And, today was a good day.

Lots of eye contact, lots of "relating", and even a few physically loving gestures.

I'm going to keep educating myself and practicing what I learn.

Sounds like a major victory to me, Chris! Take them any way you can get them -- sometimes they are few and far between.

Congratulations!

Wow, Chris, thanks for sharing all this. A few years back, my H also told me he was going to leave, and LA asked me to consider looking not just at his words, but at his actions. He was still choosing to wake up in our house. And then when he decided not to leave anymore, he didn't tell me it had changed. So it was good that I got out of the habit on my own of living in that kind of fear, of him leaving then.

Very true NED. I believe LA also said something similar to me though, at the time, I was more focused on the idea that he may have felt he couldn't leave immediately because right now our home loan is up on the air and he believes that we cannot afford to maintain separate households. He even spoke of remaining in the house for "one or two years" during a separation (which I thought was nuts & I told him no way.) Now, I am more capable of taking in what LA said - kind of...Yes - he is choosing to stay: to wake up in our house, to take care of me physically and drive me to & from work and to all of my medical appointments, wash the clothes, help me get showered, give me my meds. Wow...typing all of that out and then seeing it is eye-opening. That's a lot to do for someone. That could be part of the frustration...this is the second time all of this has been placed on his shoulders - unfortunately they will not fix both feeet at the same time. He is also finishing up his MBA, and then there's the drama at work. So, when he said "I'm just not happy." I have to put that statement into perspective.

The good news is, each day I become more and more physically independent, I do what I can to help using my wheelchair (like consistently cooking and cleaning up the dishes) and I expect to be able to walk very soon. More good news, he will be finished with school in 2 weeks. So right there some of the pressure will be off.

In the meantime, I am still doing MB so I can be a better wife to him...


From my husband's actions I believe he has changed his mind as well but he hasn't said a word to me about it. Someone else here warned me that he probably wouldn't come to me and discuss the situation either.

Can you share how you coped with that?

Chris, I'm not sure what to say, I'll go back and read my journal. My first guess is that I felt part sad and part relieved. That I coped by talking with my friends here on the board, and I don't know if I mentioned I've been very active in Alanon, a 12 step group, for 4 years. I was also very active in my kids' activities and at my church, and with my extended family. It was a rough time, I was also reeling from his mom passing unexpectedly. But the support I had was second to none. LA and jayne were two of the folks here who helped me through that time.

Oh, Chris, what got us past that time was the UA and FC time. I planned activities, and followed through whether H participated or not.

We don't have UA right now, but we are talking again. It's during the commute, while watching TV, or for brief moments in between doing other things which surround our son (his b-day, his cub-scout activities, etc.) I guess this is what is called FC. But what if FC becomes a substiute or a way to avoid UA? (I should start a thread asking about this...) Speaking of that - My DH is really pouring himslef into this type of thing right now and making sure I feel "invited" to tag along. I am not sure if that's a good sign or not, and I am trying not to think about it, but...as some of you might know...it's very hard.

For example, at the b-day party one of the other moms kept going on and on about her ex whenever the kids were out of earshot. She (and one of the other moms) looked at my DH with such an admiration for how he was doing things for the party. It obviouslymade her think of her ex who she said has nothing to do with their kids and is even thousands in arrears on child support.

That made me feel bad...partly for her and partly because I think that everyone on the outside will say that something was wrong with me if we do get divorced. Looking @ him act at the party and at other events with our son, no one would ever guess that he was physically abusive and that he is verbally abusive. Why the heck do I care about what other people may think?

I still battle the lingering doubts about why I want to save our marriage in the first place.

These are not positive feelings.

Tried to work on honesty today. Baby steps.

I was feeling badly because it's almost 2 p.m. & I have not received a phone call today from my DH. I have had a few days like that recently because of the trouble we are having in our Marriage.

One of our rituals was to call each other several times during the work day. Of course that stopped almost entirely immediately after my DH announced he wanted a divorce. So, now that I think we're making progress, the bad timing on this is - My DH and all the folks towards the lower end of the totem pole in his office have been recently told no long personal calls @ work because of the new person he mentioned having the issues with. (Even though she begins her day with 45 minute calls to her spouse & daughter.)

Well, I picked up the phone and called him. I said that I was just calling to say a quick hello + to see how his day was going. He said he's doing ok but he has a meeting in a few minutes & was just getting prepped for it. So I said that I wouldn't keep him. I just wanted to see what he was up to. Then I said my my honesty statement at this point--> "We used to talk alot during the workday and it makes me sad that we don't anymore." He said "Well..You know what I go through daily here." I said "yep". Then he said "I'll call you back in the afternoon. I should be the only one in the office then." My statement of encouragement without pressure-->"It would be great if you are able to do that. I'll let you get back to work."

And then we said goodbyes.


This was a small exchange but I thought it was "progress." Practice with being honest about how something makes me feel and no accusations / harsh words via "You don't call me at work anymore."

Chris,

Good choice to call. You can also include honest appreciation...because he met your need for attention and conversation previously, though you may not have stated how happy you felt back then. See, you shared you're sad without it...does imply it made you happy back when.

Make sure you take every opportunity to state your genuine appreciation for his choices, too. Part of PORH, I believe.

My question for you is why didn't you get counseling for abuse when he asked you? Or the second time he asked? If you knew it was a big part of fighting for your marriage that you do this, would you?

LA

I did. But he doesn't see it that way.

Click here


Here's the most relevent portion:


He also doesn't recall me searching the Internet and making calls trying to find us a Marriage Counselor last year. It fell by the wayside because we got hung up on cost & logisitcs and life happened. Naturally, since he doesn't remember it, it did not happen. And he doesn't have to be responsible for searching for a Marriage Counselor and making it work either - it's just my responsibility. (Yes - the sarcasm was drippig off that last statement.)

Let's be clear: I was still being abused (verbally) and terrorized after he stopped PHYSICALLY abusing me And - he did not stop because he thought it was wrong. He stopped because he was shown I would call the police. Even when he said during that coversation linked above that he was "a monster" and he started the negative ball rolling in our relationship first by lying about his massive debts and then with physical and verbal abuse, HE DID NOT SAY HE WAS SORRY. He said that crap so matter of factly - "Yeah I may have started all this, but I told you to go fix yourself. You didn't and I am too tired to try now."

I can recall an incident where he yelled and cursed as loudly as he could directly into my ear. Got really close and in my face to do it. Jesu, my ear hurt like hell after that. I was absolutely TERRIFIED. It was over something so small...

Considering all of that isn't it amazing that I made any move to attempt counseling at all?

LA, look at me now. We need to stop this angle because it's bringing up negative memories. That's no good for me right now with what I am trying to do to save my marriage.

Or maybe I need to get it out. Who knows?

To answer the other part of your question: I am scheduled for 2 sessions already and I'll be scheduling more. The first appt is next week. My intention is to deal with my damage from being abused with individual counseling asap.

I'm confused.

Counseling for abuse is NOT MC...it was like the group you went to...and you were GREAT to say that group wasn't for you because you wanted your marriage...a HEALTHY marriage.

Not going to Alanon (how is a rage addict NOT like an alcoholic, really?), going to another group, or an IC back then was your choice...and now you're choosing differently.

I'm really glad you're going to do this. For you, to honor his thoughtful request, and for The Marriage.

For the years you did not after the first time you tried, you were saying (without saying) "you're the problem in our marriage, not me." Not what you intended, I believe...then again, when you trigger to his past abuse, you seem to really grab onto it as just that. He's the monster. After being here a couple of weeks (on MB), do you still believe he was/is a monster?

Just like you heard me saying you caused him, made him physically abuse you (which would also go for verbally abuse you after he stopped physically abusing you) in my first post to you.

See, if you had stuck to really getting the help you needed to RECOVER from his acts of abuse would have included learning skills to deal with triggers, healing wounds that he inflicted and the ones you did, in yourself...

What if he wanted you to get independent help in not continuing the abuse dance to help him to not act out his rage?

Had you done that, then when he yelled in your ear, you would have called the police again...you would have studied and learned abuse definitions...because that would have HELPED your H in his recovery.

And you didn't. Now you are. Tell him you are going to do what you really do before...that you are beginning to see your half, your power and responsibility in your own healing...and say that you'd like to develop a plan, over time, to heal the marriage, together.

Every time you stayed present for abuse, you harmed the marriage, too. And him. It's like watching an alcoholic drink, sit with him while he does, and point your finger at him as the only one doing harm. There is no measure to who does MORE harm...which seems as if you believe I am not understanding of your H's brutality over the years of your marriage...and I do understand. I do comprehend that you have PTSD, which you chose not to pursue getting help with for you, for the kids and the marriage...

Though all of you were worth it, every day.

I know that when you don't enforce your boundaries, you do harm to yourself, to others and your marriage. And it's soooo easy to do because you're focused on the other person not enforcing THEIR boundaries...and if only they would, then you wouldn't have to do your part.

That's what I get, Chris...and it will take concentrated healing of you, of owning your past choices, lots of forgiveness and discovering the true reasons why you did not...so that today, right now, your life can be free from abuse...because you will enforce your predetermined and progressive boundaries...without failing yourself.

And you may begin to hear your H very differently...hear him apologizing, asking for your help, offering his help, and maybe you can hear his pain, his acts of redemption, love and respect for you...and together, learn to thrive.

Every choice you make matters...knowing what abuse crosses your boundaries and legal boundaries--your responsibility. My responsibility. Each person is responsible for knowing and acting. Not reacting.

When I enforced my boundary of transparency during my FWH's withdrawal, I didn't know I was helping him...or the marriage. I was just holding myself to verifying the truth...something I could hold onto when I felt like flying apart.

Turns out, three years later, my DH told me how me checking his phone, right in front of him, his car, trash, etc...helped him to end his addiction to OW. That he knew he would be caught if he tried, so it strengthened him...and that wasn't my intent...was the result.

When we enforce healthy boundaries, everyone benefits in ways you can't see...if your H can rely on you to keep your word, not withstand his verbal abuse (by standing there)...work together on ending the abuse dance...each doing your part...then you're both working on the marriage, as well.

When you develop enforcing boundaries to a habit level, then you will see where you sharing honestly isn't dependent on him...he didn't make it so "for the first time I could speak openly"...because you have more power than that. And part of what you learn in abuse counseling is to NOT assign your power to the abuser...and helps you find out why you do, what your false payoff is in doing just that...so you begin to know yourself better and share yourself with your partner.

I don't understand your statement "He did not stop because it was wrong." He didn't want the consequences that comes with physically abusing his spouse. So he stopped. And then continued the verbal abuse.

I don't believe he replaced one with the other. I believe he was already verbally abusive before he stopped the physical. I believe he may have escalated the verbal after stopping the physical.

So you had great info from your H on what really got to him about having his request for you to get help from being abused turned down. I wonder if he felt heard, validated as to how important that was to him, that you really understood or not.

He said he saw himself as a monster...and he listed his monstrous actions. I heard you also call him that in your early posts and defend calling him that later. I push this issue because when you buy into his stuff, his definition, then you are not respecting yourself, him or the marriage. Because he stopped doing monster four years ago physically, and has yet to stop the verbal...and you know plainly that he stopped when you enforced.

He changed...and will continue to change. Don't discount his stopping because it doesn't match the why's you want...not yet. Stopping remains fact. You are both equals and equally powerful. He feels hopeless, wants to divorce, because as long as he's the monster in the marriage, it cannot be healthy, has no room for redemption, forgiveness or growth. His pleas to you to get help were very important. And now you're acting on them...tell him you now understand.

Understand that the actions...yelling in your ear so loud...isn't permitted over something small or big. Isn't permitted. See where your own thought patterns imply justification...as if you could really, at some level, deserve that behavior. That's in you. Not him. Not in his control.

Again--please do not hear me saying you caused him to abuse you, or do now...we are half of every relationship on this earth...that's in the design. What we do and don't do, say and don't say, matters as much as the other person in the relationship. It's inherent.

We sure can experience relationships very differently...our minds can bend, twist and distort in the name of protecting, when we are doing the opposite. Every abuser believes he/she is protecting himself when he abuses another. Isn't true...their experience is very real.

When you trigger to past abuse, own it. It's your trigger...and when you trigger you hate your H. Tell him that. Isn't real...your feelings follow your actions...and I learned to stop my triggers through ownership. When they happen, I have to catch the image/sound trigger within 10 seconds...and if I do, and then say "That's not what I want. That isn't happening right now" then I won't experience the emotions with it. If I delay, dwell (even for 20 more seconds), then I re-experience the event again, as if it were happening now and my feelings follow.

Your anger, fear, frustration and hatred isn't unreasonable...just know where it's really coming from. Because it takes you to the wall...as if you're sitting in the middle of the room, living your life...and from the trigger, going further with it (from the past), then you're thrown across the room to obliteration. That's the visual example of all or nothing. Happy or Miserable...with no in between.

And when I learned I was in control of that in myself...freedom finally was something I could live, breathe and understand. I'd blamed everyone else, made others the monsters, me the victim...

stop going to the wall. You can do this. Your healing is as important as your H's healing. Healing together is an incredible bond in marriage. You both affect the other in all your choices (which is the inherent intimacy in marriage)...get the help you've needed in the name of the marriage, right now.

LA

LA,

A few things:

+My husband's theory was that after I went to abuse counseling, we could go to Marriage Counseling together. Sounds like a good theory - provided that abuse actually stopped. It didn't.

+I tried the group and then I tried IC. I had a few IC sessions (about 5 or 6) when the need for the surgeries came. So, the IC temporarily stopped as we were just beginning to address my issues with the abuse. My IC starts again in exactly 2 weeks. It was the soonest I could get.

+Thoughtful request? My husband did not make a thoughtful request about abuse counseling or marriage counseling. He doesn't make thoughtful requests. Not yet. Not a character flaw - a lack of knowledge. I didn't know about the concept of thoughtful requests until about 2 weeks ago.

+I'm choosing to go to individual counseling for ME, not for him or my Marriage. I am learning MB for my Marriage.

+I never referred to my husband as a monster here or out loud - ever. It was the word he used. But I am sure I was using it in my mind to describe his abusive side.

+I fully comprehend that as long as he is the "monster" in the relationship it leaves no room for growth and mutual happiness. In fact, whether it's with him or another man - I need to heal so I can have peace and love. I was violated in the worst way when the person who is supposed to love and protect me became the person to be protected from. That's the reality and that's what I have to get past so I can be well. To answer your question - Do I still think he was / is a "monster"? - No AND yes. The AOs are scary....monstrous. The part of him that is willing to not protect me from the AOs is monstrous. The other parts are loving, dutiful, and reliable.


The next AO (and I know there will be one) I will state that it is not acceptible and physically remove myself from the situation. I realize exactly where I went wrong after I called the police. When he came back and said he was audi, I should have agreed with it and said - the door to our M is open IF you can guarantee that you will stop being abusive, attend more Anger Management training, and attend marriage couseling with me. I did not do that. Begging him to stay and then doing the eggshell walk on my tippie toes was my ignorant choice and I followed it up with more ignorant choices of not enforcing my boundaries after each AO and verbal abuse scenario. That's part fo the damage I caused. And now here I am.

I wish I had known about this place back then (and even earlier - before the marriage). There's a good chance that I would have insisted on attending an MB Weekend / completing an MB course or perhaps not even married him depending upon his response.

Hindsight is better than 20/20.


You said


I believe that as well.


I re-read what you wrote and I'll be re-reading it a few more times.
My sincerest thanks for your honesty & insight.

Tried POJA today.

During this morning's commute DH reminded me that our child would be staying @ a friend's house Saturday thru Sunday in 2 weeks. He also mentioned about having to replace some suits.

I tried to bundle these two circumstances into an opportunity to schedule some UA time. I suggested that we go shopping for the suits. (I recall, awhile ago - before the big "announcement" - he told me that he enjoyed it when we went shopping for suits together. He said he had been disappointed the last 2 times he had to go alone.) He said "That's fine. We're supposed to go to dinner anyway." It's not enthusiastic agreement and it's his standard response to many many things. It was his response two /three days ago when I suggested dinner because our child would be away.

I asked him if he already had something else in mind or something else planned. He said "no" but it would be his first weekend without school work in a long time. He was thinking about just sitting @ home.

So, I empathized with him: "It will be your first time without a school paper or a project due. I was exactly where you are a few years ago & I understand you may want to just chill out at the house. Let's not do the dinner or shopping if you don't want to... Let's not do anything unless both of us really want to." He got quiet.

Left it there and decided to check up on it in a few days.

How did I do?

Did you talk to your H about the promise of the beach trip in front of DS?

What did he say? I understand that you H does not seem to be consistant. I see you r concern in front of your son. It was also confusing to/for you.

I don't think I could live not knowing if he is "on" or "off". You know my H is on the fence, too. I simply could not live like that.

Nope. That would be confrontational. As another wise person pointed out, my foucs right now is my part of the "dance" - my own behavior.


Old news. We have made measureable progress since that day. I understand if you didn't have the time to read everything. You have a lot going on.



Sure you can live that way ...for a time. Trying to verbally push the issue right now or force a spouse to make a decision at this stage would be foolish. It could cause more harm than good.

In fact, there are at least 4 reactions to our spouse threatening divorce, filing for divorce, or saying "I don't love you anymore"

1) Throw in the towel ("She / he doesn't want to try, so neither do I.")
2) Try to Control the Situation (Try to talk your spouse into staying or out of leaving)
3) Declare War (Bad mouth your spouse to friends, family, and anyone who will listen. Yell. Scream. Argue. Berate your spouse, etc.)
4) Do something proactive (Plan, then do! Try MB, MC, or some other counseling / coaching method - even if your spouse isn't with it right now. Explore your options while managing your emotions.)

What you have to do if you want to save your marriage is work on what's under your control - your own behavior. IMO, MB is awesome because it's behavior-based.

As far as my situation goes: Things are consistent at the moment. I am consitently practicing and learning MB, I am consistently trying to manage my bahavior and my emotions, and I can see that things are consitently improving between us.

Today I had feelings of sadness & anger as a rection to a conversation about my husband not sleeping in the bed when I started sleeping in it this weekend. He said it's because of my foot, but I don't believe him. (DJ right?) It makes sense anyway - why sleep in the same bed with your wife if you aren't sure whether you want to be married to her? I had expected this but at the same time I had positive hopes.

I experienced these feelings during our commute this morning after the topic came up. We couldn't really get into it because we had a rider in the vehicle with us. When my husband attempted to make small talk, I wasn't able to respond. I simply stopped talking to him. He noticed it of course. I also wasn't able to say my cheery "goodbye / have a great day / & smile" at the end of the ride either...I asked what time he'd be coming to pick me up and then I said OK when he answered. I got out of the vehicle and went into the building.

I can hardly concentrate on my work. I am in trouble...I feel so down today. No - I feel absolutely terrible. I started a thread about this but then I removed it & replaced it with this one. It was very ugly. Lots of caps writing.

I wish he would just file for divorce and get it over with. Or - maybe I should do it. I am not sure how much more of this I can take. How long will it be before I have some kind of breakdown at work? While HE is merry and gay, plays with our son, plays his video games on his computer, etc.

I hate that he's OK with turning me and my son into divorce statistics. I hate that he has to "think about" whether he wants to give things another try.

I guess I am coming close to the point of losing my love for him. OR - the anger over his one two many "I'm gonna divorce you" threats is overtaking my feelings of love for him. If that happens - if I fully lose it, the marriage really will be over once and for all. Perhaps this is why Dr. H says plan A for women is only about 4 weeks.

Someone please help me!

I'm sorry nobody has responded to this.

Have you told him all this? Your foot is no excuse if he's saying he's doing it for your comfort and you told him that it's not a discomfort to you. I know you struggle with dishonesty. Just try to tell him these things. No, just DO. Do tell him.

Chris, typically people here are advised to keep their postings to one thread. It helps everyone follow the pieces of your story and offer better advice.

Things seem to be running really slowly today with a number of the regular veterans not posting yet or not posting as much as usual, so I'm hoping that better responses from people more experienced than me are coming up ahead.

In the meantime, I know that Dr. Harley has said the value of this forum in providing support has been invaluable for many people. And I want to encourage you to believe that marriage is valuable. There have been days I have asked myself why I put myself through pain. Of course I know the answer is that I believe in being faithful to my vows and I believe restored love between me and my wife is possible and will be wonderful. On those days, having people here to remind me of that and notice all the hard work I've done has just been incredibly invaluable.

After marriage recovery, people who wanted out and didn't care about their wife or children often seem to be amazed and even ashamed when they remember how they were acting. I hope one day due to all your hard work your husband can say the same.

Have you talked with Steve Harley?

Sorry OH. I was feeling like crap.

CW - we talked again this evening....when he picked me up, he saw I was upset & he initiated another "big talk"... I told him how I hurt I was about the conversation from this morning. He said he knew I was upset & he wanted to call me and talk more about it, but the office environment wasn't safe for that kind of talk today. He pointed out what I said above: We are currently evaluating things & it wouldn't be right for us to be in bed together at this point.

We talked about a lot of things. I told him that I feel he doesn't care about me & love me because he seems OK...not upset at all. He said that he does care about me & love me or he would have simply left. He always goes "flat" (as far as outward expressions) when he's working through his emotions. He is paying extra attention to our child because men who feel like they may be pulling away from their wife also pull away from their kids at the same time. He doesn't want to do that...he doesn't want our child to get hurt.

He said that, at times, he gets up in the morning & thinks he wants to try again - work on our marriage... but he wants to be sure I am 100% committed to working through my issues with emotional dishonesty & resentment. He said he wasn't happy living the way we were and he wants things to be different if we're going to be together. I agreed. He said that in my couseling and quest for personal growth I may decide I don't want to be married to him anymore. He doesn't want me to forget about what happened in 2006 - just be able to truly forgive him so we can move on together IF we are going to be together.



Very eye opening.



I think that if we can get through this we will have a deeper and much more satisfying relationship. Looks like if I can just clean up my side of the street...things may just work out after all.

Markos,

I had one session with Dr SW Harley. I believe that within a few weeks we may be purchasing lots more together. That's my outlook and my hope at this point.

Good for you, Chris. In the meantime, we'll see what we can do here to keep you encouraged. I know what it is to float between those sessions and feel like you have no hope. Don't give up, as long as this possibility remains. Steve is a good motivator.

{And the forum was great at helping me discover Love Busters I didn't know I was committing!}

They don't call it a roller-coaster for nothing! Don't get hit or fall out during the wild ride. It looks a whole lot better on the other side.

Thanks Markos

Chris, this is very, very promising. I think all it would take to push him over would be some motivation from Steve. Steve could sell him by showing him an action plan. If he sees a an action PLAN rolled out, he might be more hopeful. Will he talk to Steve?

Perhaps a little later when I start to show progress with what I mentioned above. He believes that we can't work on our issues effectively if I am not really willing to work on mine.

Are you not willing to work on the marriage? I thought you were?

Sorry - I meant my own personal issues. Examples: PTSD - like behavior from being abused, hiding anger (and other "negative" emotions), & managing my memories.

What kind of behavior is that? What do you do?

It's hard for me to admit at this point...but I'll try - without getting too specific:

I tend to re-live the abuse and experience the emotions (as if it's happening in the present) all over again when something reminds me of it...could be a movie, a conversation, something I witness IRL. In comes the anger / bitterness / resentment.

I tend to downplay or completely hide my feelings if I think the feelings are negative - In my mind "negative emotions" are "dirty"... sadness & anger are biggies for me. This basically equates to lying because the people in my life (especially my spouse) do not know my true feelings about many things. Then I become resentlful as the behavior they are doing which annoys / hurts me continues (because I did not tell them.) Resentment is a poison.

Does that give you a picture of the types of things I am doing in my intimate relationships?

How exactly do you "re-live the abuse?" What do you do to others?

And what have you done to NOT REACT to triggers? I mean, I understand abuse, becuase I was horribly abused. But the solution was to train myself to NOT think about it.

I am not resentful and my bad childhood has NO CONTROL over my life today. That can't be used as an excuse for bad behavior when one is an adult.

We can always control behavior, though. What behaviors are disturbing to him?

Chris,

I waited to respond because of my own reaction to your post.

I remember that mindset very well...and I read you as in a lot of pain, fear and anger.

Very eye-opening...is intimacy...is literally your brain widening its doors. Through conflict, we do have deeper intimacy...and that's just what you did when you didn't zone out during your H's "big talk"...where you participated, own your emotions with "I" statements and were radically honest.

Sounds like he did, too. Sounds like you knew each other new today, without assumptions (for the most part). You really cannot read the other's mind. Even based on the past, knowing each other's habits, perspectives and perceptions.

What you assume harms you...inside. Would you consider you will take the worst, most painful possibility as the reason behind your H's actions? Will you consider that may be your habit, long before H, and see if you have done that with others (old friends, childhood friends, relatives, siblings, parents)?

Kudos for your honesty--your act of bravery...feeling fear, pain and anger, and staying honest and respectful, anyway.

What was stunning to me was when I realized how much MORE pain, anger and fear was in our disconnection (assumptions) than in true connection. I believed conflict was fighting, hurting each other...as Dr. Harley says, we choose to fight or not. It is real connection, good communication...and it's confrontation of ourselves, really, not the other person. Fighting is when we confront our partners, instead, I think.

LA

I don't do anything to anyone. I just turn inward and become more closed off. Turtle in a shell.


I tried the "pretend it didn't happen" method and the "it wasn't that big of a deal method."

Fail.

This is why I am off to IC every Tuesday indefinitely.


The lack of emotional honesty.

The SDs and DJs swirling with resentment.



ETA: My H seems to be a sensitive man. I think my approval and emotional availability was / is extremely important to him. I gave judgementalism, anger, and resentment.

Chris, I may be off base, but I really think there's a good chance this just all comes down to learning how to express emotion openly without the love busters of angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. I think you have a lot of similarities between both me and my wife. It was a major breakthrough for us to learn how to start making thoughtful requests of each other instead of demands. It's been another major breakthrough for us for me, the last couple of months, to learn to start just honestly and factually expressing my feelings without anger.

But it's a skill that can be learned, taught, studied, and coached.

Get yourself a good coach for this stuff, plus lots of help here, and it really opens up doors in your marriage.

I believe what you are saying is 100% true Markos.

But you can see that keeping yourself triggered all the time is a FAIL too, can't you? There is no value in bringing up traumatic events, it solves nothing, except diverts you from making the present great. The past is gone. Nothing can be done to change it. People are much happier when they don't waller around in all that. WE can't solve problems of the past, but we can solve the present and the future. That is what counts.
And we can't solve present problems if we are lost in the past.

Chris, I used to go to counseling for YEARS, and it kept me emotionally crippled. I left sessions angry and triggered. That helped no one except the IC's pocketbook. Studies have even shown that people with traumatic childhoods do WORSE in counseling than those who don't go. Did you know that?

Exactly! And that comes from retraining ourselves and practicing good behavior. We all have control over our behavior TODAY.

I agree with Markos that your marriage and personalities sound similar to ours. And I've been thinking all day how to respond.

Your husband is in withdrawal. Withdrawal is fresh on my mind right now, so here's my 2 cents. He's not going to just come out of it on his own and start acting loving towards you. It's not right and it's not fair, but you are going to have to be the one that steps up and takes control of the situation. He won't do it. Ever. He sees no need to, and sees no hope. You are going to have to show him there's hope.

He will say mean things. You must respond with kindness.
He will be hurtful. You must be considerate.
He will do whatever it takes to push you away. You must remain calm.

Chip away at his wall by filling his EN one at a time, even if your actions are rejected. Markos told me he read somewhere that if an action would normally deposit 100 love units in a happy marriage, it will only deposit 1 love unit in a withdrawn spouse. It will take A LOT of perseverance. But you can break through.

And, whatever you do, avoid LB at all cost. You will lose every single love unit you deposited, and justify withdrawal in his mind. And you will have to start completely over.

I'm still new at this. But, that is what Markos did for me, and it worked for us.

Thanks Prisca,

Perhaps an MB vet will view this differently based on what I have shared, but I don't think my H is in Withdrawl anymore. People in withdrawl don't initiate "Big Talks" about the marriage (he's done that 3 times in the past 3 days) and they don't do it because they notice their spouse is upset and ask "Why are you upset?"

I will definitely continue to work on eliminating LBs and depositing ENs - cleaning up my side of the street. I think this will work out as long as I do that. I am hoping we'll be in May's Marriage Builder Weekend.

Melody,

You seem opposed to individual counseling but I need professional asistance. I tried to solve my problem on my own for years and it hasn't worked.

If I get the sense that my counselor has no experience with what I hope to accomplish or is making things worse for me, I'll find someone else immediately.

I sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time out of their day to encourage me. I guessed that my feelings were typical (The Taker rising up & rebelling), so that's why I asked for help. I know a few MB vets have seen this before.

Okay, I see that your signature has now changed. It used to say he was in withdrawal, IIRC, which is what I was going on.

Chris, have you read some of Dr Harley's writings on this type of counseling? Dr.Harleys opinion reflects the findings of numerous studies that counseling can often keep a patient depressed and triggered with anger. One really good book that covers this is One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers.

I would ask that before anyone tell me that the solution to my internal problem is as "simple" as expressing myself without LBs such as SD, DJ, etc...please read Prisca's recent statement about her feelings from the ONE time Markos physically hurt her. My H physically harmed me more than one time. And I have had other experiences which I am not sharing here, but are very similar. This all loops back into my feeling that negative emotions are to be denied.

I hope this gives you an idea of why I am choosing IC rather than repeating the mistake of attempting to tackle this on my own. Although you posted the info above Mel, Dr H recommends IC several times for certain situations in his book and in the letters on this site too.

I am not going to discuss everything which happened in the past, dissect it, and try to resolve it. I am going to learn techniques to help me manage my memories and my emotions.

Chris, are you saying you have no control over your behavior? Because we all have internal problems, but we still have a choice over whether we engage in lovebusters. [unless we are mentally ill]

Yes, I can control my behavior. With the practice over the past few weeks I have become more and more skilled at making thoughtful requests and not verbalizing DJs. I hit a wall with emotional dishonesty. I am not ashamed to admit that some things have happened to me in my life which gave rise to that particular difficulty for me. And, I am not ashamed to seek the help of a professional to help me shed some of my "internal problems" as you said.

Why are you so opposed to IC, Melody? Did you have a bad experience with it?

I started IC right before my surgeries. I had about 4 sessions. I always felt much better after each session. The doc was helping me reframe things in a more positive way.

Another goal: I also want to get to the point of not even thinking DJs too.

I wasted years and years in counseling and it never solved my problems. It did keep me angry, triggered and abnormally focused on things I could not change: my past. Now I learn that people who do go to counseling often fare WORSE because the counseling a) keeps them depressed and b) distracts them from focusing on the present.

And this makes sense to me as someone who has seen extraordinary personal recoveries in AA and in MB, not from counseling, but from making behavioral changes.

What I have learned is that feelings follow actions, and the most impactful, effective programs are based on that premise. The effective programs are behavioral, rather than feeling based.

What made the most dramatic changes in my life was making behavioral changes. Talking about my feelings was a waste of time. But changing my behavior dramatically changed my life in a very positive way and this has been my observation in AA and around here.

I do believe Dr Harley when he says that exploring one�s past is a diversion from the present and this has been my own experience. The solution to my problems was always found in the present, not the past.

So, perhaps I need to be very clear with my Therapist up front: A firm statement about not dredging up the past. A very focused goal of managing emotions, specifically working on not being fearful to express negative emotions.

Chris, I hesitate to add another perspective, because you have folks talking to you here who *have* restored loving marriages for years and years now, who *are* living the dream.

That said, what I see is your H provoking you until you get upset. Him showing relief and willingness to connect with you again once you are "acting like the crazy one." Then telling you this is your burden, to win him back, to give him reason.

But it's okay, just a snapshot in time. I have a lot of hope that your new actions can bring lasting changes in your marriage and family.

I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective than MelodyLane, based on my own experiences with IC, and also my journey in Alanon (same 12 steps as AA, slightly different focus).

In Alanon (in AA too? ML?) we talk about the three "A"s, which are Awareness, Acceptance, and Action. Taking action without acceptance can be very dangerous because it may be forcing a solution for the wrong motivation, even if it appears to be the right action on the surface. And practicing acceptance without awareness can very often be preemptive denial. Awareness is where we get honest about our emotions and motivations; acceptance without understanding our motivations is not truly acceptance at all.

So first we must have an understanding of our motivations, as well as an understanding of what I can control (myself) and what I can't control (other people, places and things). That's awareness. We often use the serenity prayer to guide us. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannont change (acceptance), courage to change the things I can (action), and wisdom to know the difference (awareness).

In my experience, taking action without awareness has often meant trying to change the things I can't, while accepting the things I shouldn't.

Having an IC, a sponsor in alanon, a 12 step program to follow, a support group to lean on, and even a great MB board to come to are all parts of AWARENESS for me. Even dredging up the past is, in my experience, a VERY important part of healing. That's why there's a Step 4: Make a fearless and searching moral inventory. Can't do that without examining the past. And in my experience, it's not safe to examine the past without the help of another person, whether it be a counselor, trusted friend, clergy, or all of the above. In fact, those of us who have any kind of disfunction in our history probably need a trained professional to help us sort it out.

I also think I can get so caught up in trying to find perfect awareness that I completely avoid action. Sometimes it's important to act in faith, and trust that God will deepen our awareness as we go. Action and Awareness both can be taken to extreme, and I prefer to find the middle ground.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

I strive to get to a point where I no longer regret the past, but at the same time, do not shut the door on the past. Both are extremes. Best to look at the past through the eyes of acceptance, if only to avoid repeating the same mistake over and over again.

NED,

Thanks for being honest with what you see. Part of me felt like that too. I decided to not give in to that feeling because I thought it came from my Taker.

The other thing is: Let's say he did do that (what you described). If I want to save my marriage, then I have to be the one who bears the "burden" of doing the work to restore the marriage (temporarily.) Marriage Builders says the same thing to Betrayed Spouses in Plan A.

It's tempting to let pride (or my Taker) take over and say: "Why the heck should I bother with him? He provoked me into acting like the crazy one, was relieved that I did and then was willing to reconnect with me because of it, and now I have to be the one to do the heavy lifting at this point? Well harumph ((arms akimbo)) No way Jose."

Then I might as well start posting about my divorce in the Divorce Room...but I'd much rather be posting like Markos & Prisca.

Chris, your part of that dance is to not be the crazy one. Easier said than done, but I've found it tremendously helpful in my interactions with H to vent here or to other friends BEFORE I respond to H's crazy-making behavior. At that point, I'm much more sure of my position, which makes it easier to remain calm.

I know exactly what you mean CW. It's hard to admit it, but sometimes I really am the crazy one though. We take turns.

For example, I should be very offended if my spouse tried to snuggle up (or more) in bed with me after telling me he is considering a divorce. Two words which come to mind are "deceptive" & "disrespectful." And, I've seen that before - guys knowing they are leaving someone or cheating yet still having sex with the girlfriend / spouse who is unaware) Logically I know that (heck - it's what I would have said to a girlfriend going through this) but emotionally I actually got upset...I even pushed the question.

Sometimes it's possible to vent here before confronted with a crazy-maing scenario from our spouses and sometimes it isn't because it sneaks up on you...so, we need to be able to think on our feet too. The forum helps me with that as well. Reading about other people's experiences, questions, and observations gives me lots of ideas about how to handle certain things when they come up - not only in my marriage but with other family members and friends. I am learning so much from being here.

Truthfully, in our first "Big Talk" when DH flatly refused to speak with Dr. SH... I felt that in certain parts of that conversation, DH was engaging in crazy-making, denial, and blaming. These are things DH definitely does; however, I did not feel he was doing that in this particular conversation. There are other portions of this "Big Talk" which I did not share partly because I did not want to type a long long post (I want to get away from doing that) and partly because I was so blown away by this new and honest "us." Those portions involve me expressing to him that I felt hurt / angered / betrayed by specific things he is doing now. I also asked him very pointed questions about him physically abusing me.

I am just amazed at how good honesty feels (even when it hurts) and I want more. Does that sound weird?

Honesty is honestly easier than deceit. You've thrown off a burden, that's why you like it.

LA,

I wish you hadn't waited. Your posts are so helpful to me - even when (and especially when) they make me angry. I guess that's 2 X 4 ing right?


Yes, I think there is a tendency in me (which was there ong before we married) to assume the worst intentions of certain people in my life. And you are right - most of the pain, anger, and fear lies in the assumptions & not in the true connections. This is especially true with my DH. So, me learning to be emotionally honest is key for my relationship with him. Assuming the worst intentions means that when you interact with the person, you are reacting to what you think their intentions are rather than with the person as they truly are.

For me, the sad thing is more than a few of those people in my life really did have the worst intentions. Early on, I had a tendency towads trusting (and I also ignored my instincts so as not to "judge" people too harshly without cause) and consequently I trusted a few people I shouldn't have trusted (We've all been there...) After a few times being hurt, I began to question my ability to discern people's intentions and their character. Today, I made a committment to not ignore my instincts, but I still have the lingering uncertainty about my ability to discern the trustworthy folks from the non-trustworthy folks.


Can you tell me any more about this, since you've been there?

Thinking,

A million thanks for your reply. This is a very interesting perspective and very well laid out too. Here's what stood out for me:

+Awareness
+Acceptance
+Action



In my experience, solutions based on the wrong motivation usually can't be sustained or maintained.


Wow -The way you put this really hit home for me, Thinking. I tried acceptance without awareness. I described that earlier in this thread as the "pretend it didn't happen" method and the "it wasn't that big of a deal method." And, here I stand years later back to square one...

This is something Melody shared ...a quote from Dr. H



For everyone who has an opinion about whether IC can help me with the issues I described before:

In my mind, meshing Thinking's thoughts (Awareness, Acceptance, and Action) and Dr H's & Melody's points (focusing on the past keeps your eyes off of the future) together is very helpful for me in clarifying my goals for IC: My goal is to "make the future sensational", as Dr. H termed it and "Action", as Thinking termed it. I can practice "Action" each and every day; however, the process needs to involve Awareness and Acceptance to be complete. During IC my therapist and I should not be spending most of the time thinking and talking about the past. We should only spend enough time on it for me to gain "Acceptance" and "Awareness" and then we need to move on to the primary focus & the end goal...which is the future and making the practiced behavioral changes into permanent behavioral changes.

Does that make sense?

The past and understanding it is only useful for explaining our irrational reaction to current situations, IMO.

I started working out. I was getting in better shape than I had been in for quite some years. I was doing it in response to having had my entire world torn from under my feet and using that as motivation to make myself better, part of which was getting in better shape.

Then I got sick and couldn't work out at all for over 4 months. In fact, for part of that time I was pretty much confined to doing almost nothing very strenuous much beyond answering the telephone. My first surgery caused pain, fear, and a bunch of negative emotions but also gave me hope and sort of felt like I had another shot at life since the infection it stopped seemed to be killing me in small increments that appeared to be exponentially larger each day.

Then I had a second surgery, designed to help fix the damage done by the first one. While the first helped me and saved my life, it left an open hole through my skin that left alone would never have really been able to heal before some secondary infection got in. So the second surgery was supposed to make me well. After months of laying around, I saw rapid progress and very soon was able to take a full shower for the first time in four months and was told by the doctor that I could start working out again.

We never really identified the source of the original infection and since just about everyone else who ever had it had been blown up or shot or had some other serious trauma both physical and mental, mine was pretty much an anomaly.

Today I struggle with getting back into shape. The surgeries left me with a nerve near the surface that sometimes gives me interesting little jolts not unlike an electric shock. In order to help facilitate healing of the skin from the graft, I was instructed to eat a real breakfast with plenty of protein (egg with bacon or sausage type stuff) for a few months and so I was eating more and exercising less. For some reason this second "healing" surgery took a lot more out of me physically than the first emergency one.

Still not knowing how or why I got the infection in the first place (it was an acinetobacter which doesn't happen in healthy people according to the prevailing consensus) makes avoiding the same physical circumstances an impossibility, and what ever gave it to me, I sure don't want to do that again...

But not knowing where the infection originated or what caused me to get an infection from something that almost everyone on the planet has on their skin while a mystery does not prevent me from living my life and except for the scars and that little shock every now and then it is all simply an experience I don't wish to relive even though many good things came from that event including my increased activity on the website.

The fact that I had to stop working out and that my strength just never seemed to return after the second surgery could indicate that I will never be able to work out as intensely as I did before I got sick or it might just indicate that the one serious motivation I had back then no longer exists, that being the fear of losing my wife of over 30 years, but unless I actively begin working out and changing my actions, I will never get back to where I was because without the change in action I will not be doing what will lead to my getting into shape.

Understanding how I got the infection does not change doing what needs to be done and examining it going forward can only keep me from focusing on what I need to do now. Knowing that infections of any kind can get into any opening in the skin can help me to keep my skin healthier going forward, but since this bacteria is so common everywhere (it breaks down aromatics in the soil and turns them into minerals that plants can reuse) avoiding it is not really possible and most healthy people can never get the infection since their bodies own system prevents them from being infected. (I was "special")

My point is, if I want to accomplish much of anything going forward, it will be what I do going forward that will matter many times more than what might have happened to me in the past. All of the things I observed about my illness and surgeries and physical condition after the surgeries are all just observations. NONE of them explain not getting on the treadmill this morning. NONE of them explain how I got the infection. None of them will make me a better person for the rest of my life. None of them will help me to improve my life in any way and continuing to look for answers to why this or how that occurred can only prevent me from moving forward with the actions that I must take if I plan to get into better shape, live a life I hope to achieve...

What happened to me in the past tells me only what happened and even if I understand how that has modified my thinking and feelings today cannot make going to work easier since another by product of all of my trials was that I now see very little relevance in my job beyond a paycheck that seems to dwindle more each week.

Yet I still need to go to work today because one of my goals right now is keeping my house, eating, providing for retirement and having Internet service so I can hang out here. So off I go to get ready for work whether I ever understand how I got my skin infection and no matter what hole I have to fasten my belt in today.

Knowing what happened in the past and understanding how that has made me act a certain way now still does not keep me from having to actually change my own actions now in order to accomplish my stated goals.

From a biblical perspective...When the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, the law was clear that anyone found committing adultery was to be stoned to death. (Why didn't they bring the man caught with her, BTW?)

When Jesus refused to condemn her, though He was the author of the very law they sought to enforce it changed the rules a bit, at least as far as what the men accusing her were concerned. Yet Jesus then told her to go and stop her sin going forward, which accomplished the purpose of the law without invoking the understanding of why she had broken the law to begin with. Jesus did not focus on her childhood and excuse her behavior based on past life experience. He did not examine what moral failings might have come from being abused and not having a good role model in her life as she grew up. He did not explain why the law didn't apply to her right then because of some past trauma in her life.

Yet he did not carry out the punishment clearly provided for by the law. Instead He told her to live her life a different way from then on. He focused entirely on her actions going forward and spent little to no time at all understanding how she found herself sprawled at His feet with an angry mob shouting that her life should be ended because the law of God demanded it.

We are not sinners because of past sins...

We sin now and did so in the past because we are sinners.

Go and sin no more. This was Jesus solution to the problems of the past.

No matter what reasons we might have had for doing it wrong in the past, until we begin doing it right we are still doing the wrong things. We will forever do the wrong things until we begin to do the right things and why we did them the wrong way before we learned what was right cannot change that fact. Only acting the right way will result in acting the right way.

Why we didn't before does not change that at all. What our motivation for doing the right things now might be doesn't change what is the right thing to do and understanding our motivation for doing it wrong yesterday does not matter to what is right now and going forward.

MB works because it stops examining what is wrong with a marriage and starts DOING what makes a marriage work. Rather than focusing on what makes marriages fail, MB concentrates on DOING the things that make them last. WHY someone had AOs or made SDs or DJs has nothing to do with stopping those things going forward. (BTW, we do these things because they are instincts and not learned behavior at all so we didn't get these three from our Mommy or Daddy by past actions, we got them from Mom and Dad through our genes.)

Why I was a fool yesterday can only tell me why I was acting foolish yesterday. It will be what I do today that will define me as a fool today, not what I did yesterday or when I was 12 and certainly not what someone else did when I was 12.

For those that want the learning to fish version or the correcting arm motion in pitching a baseball, just ask.

Mark

Mark, I understood your first analogy; the cause of the infection doesn't really matter because the infection was identified & treated properly... IMO The mind works a bit differently.

You may have also missed this unless you have read my story and this thread in particular: In this thread I am discussing individual counseling for myself to address personal issues (issues inside of myself) which serve to interfere with me expressing certain emotions. This affects many relationships I have - not just my relationship with my husband. At the same time, I am currently using MB to actively work on my marriage because I believe in the bahvior based model of marriage coaching and I believe that rehashing past wrongs in a marriage is nto a successful strategy for building a better marriage in the future.

Does that clarify things?

ETA: Your thread about managing memories inspired me to seek out an individual counselor to help me with that. Is your post an argument against IC for me? Just curious: Did you read the entire thread before you posted your response?

TTT, Step 4 is NOT about spending endless months and years in IC examining our past. It is a one time LIST of those we have harmed along with an admission of our crimes. We make amends and move on. We don�t waller in the past. This is very different from reliving your childhood trauma. That is NOT DONE in the steps anywhere.

We do this all the time in AA and it is not done with a counselor but with our sponsor or a pastor. It is very safe. Most ppl in AA have profoundly dysfunctional histories. That is the rule rather than the exception. In fact, I sponsor an INDEPENDENT COUNSELOR and she did her Step 5 with me. It takes no professional expertise to listen to someone's Step 4.

We don�t spend time examining our past, we make a list of all persons we have harmed and become willing to make amends to them. That is very different from spending months and years examining ones past. AA does not advocate that. In fact, if you try to talk about your childhood, etc in an AA, they will tell you to shut up. They don�t want to hear that crap.

I would just point out that Dr Harley is right when he says dredging up the past is a needless diversion that wastes valuable time that could be focused on changing the PRESENT. One does not need to resolve childhood problems to make the present GREAT. That is a good way to keep people coming back to counseling for years, but it doesn�t help them a bit.

Bingo!

TTT, I think another way to explain the difference between the difference between Step 4 and examining the past in IC is to explain that Step 4 is a confession of one�s crimes. Its purpose is to bring about repentance by honestly admitting our crimes. Its purpose is not to examine the past, but to right our wrongs with the first step being confession. That is the one of the necessary steps towards redemption. Its purpose is to REDEEM, not to waller in the past on a futile hunt for solutions.

It is like the bank robber who confesses his crimes. He is not confessing for the purpose of talking about his past, but for the purpose of righting that wrong.

And I have shut the door on my criminal past and my childhood. There is no need whatsoever to live in the past, I live in the present. That is not �extreme� at all.

And guess what? A *good* counselor will do the same thing for you individually. I went to a fantastic counselor for 2 years to deal with depression. Sure, we dug a little into the past, but only as a means to understand the role of my prior experiences in shaping my current emotional reactions. We spent more time on changing patterns, and developing tools so that I could make my future different from my past. And it worked, because I was willing to change, and did the work to change.

Anyone that finds themselves continously rehashing the past and talking about their feelings until they are blue in the face, needs to clearly state their disatisfaction with the counselor and ask for a change in direction. Or get a new counselor. They are not all out to get your money by convincing you to stare at your navel for an hour a week.

But IMHO, to state that it's always a waste of time is an over-generalization. Some of us have issues for which professional direction (for a period of time) is very helpful.

Martes

I think its a very accurate generalization. Those that are helped are the exception, not the rule. The typical counselor focuses on feelings about the PAST, which keeps people distracted from the present.

I only have a few minutes before I dash off to a meeting, and I haven't been able to read all the responses thoroughly. But I wanted to chime in a couple of things.

My H has never hit me, but his AO's got pretty bad in the verbal abuse department, and I closed down much as you have described. My O&H with him was non-existent because I was scared of triggering an AO. I for YEARS tiptoed around my home like there were eggshells everywhere.

It ended when I was on the verge of a full-on nervous breakdown and started IC. I determined I couldn't, WOULDN'T, live that way anymore. I would say my truth, and if he couldn't deal with it, and deal with it WITHOUT AO's, he could pack up and leave until he could. I was prepared for D rather than continue to live in fear. My physical health was trashed, my daughter's physical and mental health was trashed. I *had* to make a change.

I started talking about how I felt, and expressing that I expected him to discuss things with me calmly and treat me with resepect. My IC helped me with my own ways of expressing things that weren't the healthiest, I learned to use "I" statements and not express the DJ's I was thinking (though she didn't know that term) so it would be a more constructive conversation.

I was lucky - H also started IC and responded to everything I was doing and things rapidly improved. I pulled my D filing.

But it all came down to my realizing that curling up in a shell and retreating was the WORST thing I could do for my situation, and I'd rather be alone than living in fear, and learned to speak out.

Now, on the subject of IC's... there are good ones and bad ones, and there are IC schools of thought that live in the past and ones that live in the present and focus on the now. My personal opinion is that the school of thought that is most consistent with living in the now and not dwelling in the past is called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and the "bible" of that is "The Feeling Good Handbook" by Dr. David Burns. I won't see a therapist that doesn't work from that philosophy. I don't need Freudian analysis of my childhood, I need tools to get through today healthily. That's what CBT is. Now, some people here have had bad experiences with CBT as well, but my experience and that of my H has been nothing short of miraculous.

In short, if you need IC, don't stop until you find the RIGHT therapist and the RIGHT therapy philosophy. Lots of people don't realize that not all therapy is alike.

Hope some of this helps!

But if I specifically request what I need from my counselor for THIS type of treatment


and they provide it, it works doesn't it?

(That bolded portion is what I am after)


I'm going to be blunt here:

The suggestion that I NOT work with a counselor is odd to me given the fact that I tried for years on my own to manage certain difficulties inside of myself and was not successful.

I am reading Love Busters &, although Dr H warns against using therapy to perpetualy examine your past, at the end of several sections Dr H says "seek the help of a professional if you have difficulty with this." This tells me that Dr. H is stating to avoid a certain / specific pitfall in individal therapy, not that IC itself is a waste of time. I have noted the pitfall and I have stated that I will ask my therapist to deliberately avoid it and focus on my specific goals.

BUT

Let's say I follow the advice to not see a professional, what's next? Do I just suddenly get better on my own?

Please do not turn this thread into a battle over whether IC works or not. Think about what is being said here & why I started this thread. I asked for HELP. Please help me by providing a suggestion which goes along with the advice you are giving if your advice is to NOT seek professional help with my internal issues.

AC, this is GREAT feedback and I would agree 100%. The programs that are really effective, ie: AA, Alanon, Marriage Builders, are behaviorally based rather than FEELING BASED. They focus on changing current behaviors and stay out of the past.

Now, if more counselors would catch onto this, people would be much better off.

Thanks AC - that was very helpful.

Melody,

I undestand your points very clearly.

My final decision on this is: I am going to IC starting next Tuesday and I am going to be quite clear as to what my goals are.

Thank you Melody for the warning about the danger of focusing too much on the past. I am definitely on the look out for it.

Is there anything else you can add to this thread as far as the help that I requested?

Have you given any thought to coaching with Steve Harley? He is really very good at bringing reluctant spouses on board. I think your H needs a shot of hope and Steve might be able to provide that. I don't get the sense that your H is really DONE, Chris. He sounds to me like someone who is on the fence and very torn. What he needs to hear and see is a logical plan of action, which is something Steve could give him.

Melody,

You haven't read my story or at least some of the responses in this thread because if you had, you wouldn't be asking me if I have "given coaching with Steve Harvey any thought", and you know what - You & I have been here before Melody - very recently.

Again, thanks for taking the time you were able to take in responding.

This is probably the biggest difference between AA and Alanon. For those of us in "the other room" the focus IS all on me, not on other people. My sponsor (who is very well versed in both rooms) has said that in AA, the message is "It's not all about me." In Alanon, just the opposite. "It IS all about me." That's because unrecovered co-alcoholics' disease is putting the focus on everyone else. Same disease, different focus.

And making a list and making amends is not step 4. That's later down the road at steps 8 and 9. Before we are able to make that list, we need to know our good bad and ugly as much as God reveals at step 4. Before we can take action of making a list and making amends, we must BECOME READY (step 6 . . . it's a whole step!), and we must ASK GOD to remove our shortcomings. We don't change ourselves, God changes us, in his time, if we willingly surrender to the discipline of the steps.

In alanon, step 4 is not an admission of my crimes. That's certainly part of it. But it is also an inventory of my good qualities and an examination of my motivations (unerstanding the exact nature of my wrongs). Many an alanon will avoid step 4 because they believe that it is simply a list of all the wrong things I've done. Even at step 8, making the list, we are told to put ourselves at the top of that list. We have harmed ourselves by our sick thinking.

I don't want to take focus off Chris's issue, and she's not even in the rooms. Just want to clarify for her (and others) that there is a different focus for the 12 steps depending on how the disease affects me.

Thanks for the reminder. I remember you saying this now. So, what does Steve say about getting him on the phone?

We have been "where?"

TTT, the point is that Step 4 is a "searching and fearless moral inventory," not an examination of our childhood or our past traumas. It is a list of shortcomings [crimes] and assets. That is VERY DIFFERENT from going to counseling for years and navel gazing about the past. This is all part of the redemptive process found in steps 4 through 10.

The steps are ACTION steps, and not feeling based motions akin to counseling. It would be a huge mistake to confuse the two.

In my experience, solutions based on the wrong motivation can kill. Literally as well as figuratively.

Doing the right thing for the wrong reason makes it wrong.

Go back to the story of the woman caught in adultry. Apparently, public shaming and stoning was "the right thing" according to the law. The scribes and pharisees were doing "the right thing." But they were doing it for the wrong reason . . . to point the finger at someone else so that they could make themselves feel better. Go read that story in John's gospel and you'll see that it was the elders who leave first when Jesus says that the one without sin should cast the first stone! Jesus didn't condemn the woman. He probably wouldn't have condemned the scribes and pharisees for their sins either, if they'd stayed. As it was, they never gave him a chance. They left and condemned themselves.

I definitely think it can be taken to extreme The point is to progress.

And in the case of someone who has some trauma in their past, like abuse, I think it is neccessary to have a profesional guide you through those emotions. People can be walking around with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and they need help from a counselor, as well as the support groups and self-help that are available.

TTT, the steps are the same. In AA, the focus is on changing MYSELF because that is the only thing we can control. That is how it is in Alanon, too. The steps are not opposite between the 2 programs.

PTSD is very rare and is entirely different from childhood trauma. Most people do have childhood trauma, they do not need to get help from a "professional" to resolve it. That is a myth.

Keep in mind that Dr. Harley is a very qualified �professional� [a leading clinical psychologist in the US, with 35 years experience] and this is what he says:

As someone who experienced a very traumatic, abusive childhood, I can tell you that �counseling� was detrimental to my personal growth, not therapeutic. It kept me angry and triggered and diverted from working on problems in my present. A person does not need to examine their past to change current behavior.

There are studies that demonstrate that those who go to counseling for traumatic events actually suffer more depression than those who DON'T. Check out the book, One Nation Under Therapy for more detail.

Chris, there's a great quote that I try to strive for in my own life (which ironically comes from AA's "Big Book")

"We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it."

I have wasted so much of my life doing both of those things. I got married to shut the door on my past, because it contained a lot of pain I couldn't face, much of it due to my own choices; I thought I could just become a different person, and I did. I became a person I hated.

Recovery, whether it's marriage recovery or individual recovery, is about getting back what was lost due to dishonesty with myself or others. Those who don't know the past are destined to repeat it. With recovery, we get the gift of our past, the gift of acceptance, and the gift of learning from our mistakes. We can't learn from our mistakes (or the mistakes of our family legacies) if we simply shut the door and move on. Rather, for me, recovery is a journey toward deeper and deeper levels of acceptance, while at the same time I take actions WHERE APPROPRIATE, and when I know that my motivations are pure and not tainted by stinkin thinkin and trying to control other people.

I started this thread because of my feelings of anger, fear, & resentment towards my DH that morning. My DH and I had a conversation in the evening which I think was very positive and very eye-opening.

I have decided that I am going to use a therapist to assist me with some personal issues I am facing.

Concurrently, I am still going to use MB to work on my marriage.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

Thanks Thinking

I never thought about that, and I can definitely see your point. I'm lucky that I've had two very good counseling experneinces, but I will also say that being in alanon and having a sponsor is not only cheaper, but WAY more effective in actually enabling me to live a better life!

With my coverage I pay $0 for the therapist. I am happy about that.

I agree!! My first sponsor was a Dominican nun and I got more from her [censored] whoopings* and careful guidance through the steps than from YEARS of counseling! She didn't want to hear my crap, she just said "knock it off." End of story!

My life changed dramatically inside of one year because a good sponsor will help you develop NEW, PRODUCTIVE habits and won't allow you to get diverted with self pity or other some such nonsense.

� I know you Alanons don�t need your [censored] kicked, but we alcoholics rarely respond to anything less.

Chris, I think you are going into this with knowledge and you know what you want and what you don't want, and I have faith that you are able to discern whether you are getting what you need or not.

Thanks CW.

LMAO!!!!!!

Chris, I�m on a �thoughts for today� email list, and when I just opened today�s and read them I thought of you immediately. Nothing is coincidence, I believe! So I thought I�d share. Take it for what it�s worth to you!


And this one:

Chris,

I just wanted to clear up a couple of things from my earlier post.

First of all, I did NOT read the entire thread from beginning to end but did "scan" it the way I read memos at work to see what I feel I need to respond to and what is something I have no opinion or stake in. I seldom give an opinion on something on which I have no opinion.

My Managing Memories thread is really about how we can control our feelings by changing what we choose to think about so that when we make choices we are not reacting the the feelings of things of the past in an irrational way. It comes from the fact that we cannot choose how we feel in regard to memories of the things in our past, but we CAN choose to not focus our attention on those things that cause us to feel negative emotions.

If your IC can help you concentrate on things that you do have control over rather than focusing hours of reliving the pain and sorrow of what happened in the past, I think that IC can be of great help to you or anyone else. Unfortunately, most counseling models are not modification of behaviors and reactions to things of the past but merely a rehashing of days gone by which takes our thoughts into the same memory files that we wish to avoid if we are trying to avoid being triggered into experiencing the negative emotions of those events all over again.

Just like I don't have to understand why I began smoking, how smoking becomes addictive or the way the brain reacts to the chemicals in cigarette smoke that cause me to become addicted in order to stop smoking, I can make changes in what I do going forward that make me begin to think differently about the past and the way the things from my past make me feel.

Overcoming resentment for what has happened to us in the past or for what other people have done to us in the past is as much a matter of what that person does in the future as it is dealing with the things that they did to us. It is even more important to focus on what they are doing now and going forward than understanding why we responded to what they did to us.

Again, I think that this is what makes marriage builders work where other programs often fail. Rather than fix what was the result of years of doing things wrong by examining those wrong choices and actions in detail. MB strives to change what each spouse does going forward and by doing so, fixes the root causes of all the problems that came from years of doing things the wrong way.

We have the mistaken notion that we should lie to our spouse for various reasons, for example. We might feel that we are protecting them, protecting ourselves or simply avoiding conflict when we lie. But the reasoning we used to justify lying does not eliminate the need to tell the truth in its entirety from now forward.

Likewise, we might have handled conflict in the past by attempting to overcome the complaints of our spouse in order to have "peace" between us. We might have lied about our own feelings in order to accomplish this or might have used various methods of overcoming his or her resistance to what we wanted so that we could get our own way, even believing that our way was what was right for the situation.

But MB teaches us that how we attempt to resolve the conflict that we face every day is more important than actually coming to agreement. Leaving a question unanswered is better for the relationship than figuring our who is right and who is wrong in our assumptions if figuring that out is going to hurt one or the other or both in the long run.

So while it can be helpful to identify those things we did wrong in the past, it will be what we learn to do differently going forward that will change our lives much more than understanding why or how we came to do them the less beneficial way in the past.

IC can help us learn new patterns of behavior or it can keep us mired in the pains of the past. Unfortunately, many ICs tend toward the latter rather than the former. If your IC can help you change your own actions and reactions, then IC can help you in the long run. But if your IC goes back and makes you relive every painful moment of your life, like so many seem to do, then what will likely happen is that you will continue to experience the pain and fears of the past long after you could have changed the way you react to emotional situations on your own by choosing to simply react differently than the way you once did.

The concept of emotional memory management is to change what we think about to something more positive instead of allowing our minds to dwell on things of the past. It does not strive at all to help us understand why things hurt us simply to prevent us from hurting over the same things again by continuing to think about them.

And just a point of fact, the fact that you insurance carrier pays 100% for your IC, does not remove the cost factor, even for you, from the mix. Somebody is paying and in the long run you are too. My only concern is the emotional cost of reliving the painful memories while we lose focus on what could be done to stop hurting instead. Understanding our pain does not reduce it. If that pain is the result of memories, then finding a way to stop thinking about those things is what will stop the pain of the events of the past. The fastest way to do that is to replace those memories with new ones that are much less painful.

Mark

I fully support Chris and her choice to see an IC. It's in response to her H's thoughtful request.

Chris is dealing with adult trauma she sustained prior to just four years ago.

And Mark and others have great threads, Chris, on how to retrain your brain to NOT trigger. Many different ways...none of which is the shut down/shut out method you've attempted.

They are aware, loving actions you can take, laced in acceptance of the past without being a prisoner of it. Many suggestions have been made on MB in the Surviving An Affair forum over the years how to do this. One can work for you, with your IC. I know you'll dig and find them...because infidelity is like physical abuse...humans trigger...not all bad or all good...we just do. Overcoming the ones that sink our present into the past is always a wise choice.

You can do this. I've said before how important I believe this is for your marriage. You're half of the counseling experience...you have equal power in that context...and I believe you'll use it with awareness and really ask for what you want most.

ML - Gotta say, rump-kicking is as necessary in Alanon as it is in AA...in different ways. See, Alanon are addicts who carry their drug inside themselves at all times. Don't have to go to a store to buy it to indulge. We take us with us everywhere we go.

LA

Awesome post as usual, Mark!

So true!!!! I'm one of those "nice girls" who gets away with it 90% of the time. But that 10% when I actually get called on the carpet is where the growth is. I'm grateful to have friends who do it with unconditional love

I will tell you that I have absolute and endless gratitude for those in AA who cared enough to kick my [censored]. Even though I didn't like it at the time, I fondly and gratefully remember every [censored] whooping! ["you need to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, young lady!" ] I love every one of those people!

On the other hand, I don't even remember the ones who just told me what I wanted to hear.

Mark I could tell you skimmed by your earlier comments. I can tell you did the same thing again because you are telling me the same things which I have already said myself in this very thread several times.

I am going to be honest here at the risk of offending a very popular MB vet (or 2) because I feel that this is an important enough point: First, Mark - I want you to know that I find many of your posts to be very informative and inspiring when you're actually engaged with the subject of the thread. I don't feel that's the case here and it bothers me because I was in real and actual pain when I started this particular thread. You chose to focus on the threadjack topic about whether IC is a waste of time. In a way, it's insulting. When you do this, we're not having a discussion - you're just preaching...and in this case - preaching to the choir. I feel that now this thread in which I ask for help is an academic discussion on the merits of IC versus whether IC is a waste of time...

Mel, I am saying the same thing to you. I was describing my trouble with personal issues and then before I knew it I was being told that I should not go to IC. A few pages ago I shared that I understood the various POVs re/ IC and the potential hazards & I also shared that my decision was to get help from a professional... yet the IC is a waste of time comments continued at the expense of the actual topic of this thread.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong or if I am misunderstanding the culture of the forum but I don't think that what happened here is OK because I notice that most people in the forum are polite about threadjacking. They start another thread right?

ETA:

For anyone who does not support my decision to go into IC, your comments are noted:
Once again your points are:
-dwelling on the past is not a way to manage the future
-you feel IC is a waste of time or it could cause more damage because most IC professionals focus on feelings rather than behavior

I got it.

Now I would appreciate it if you would stop this, because as I said earlier - I am going to try IC and I am going to be very specific about my goals and my desire to focus on behavior and the future rather than do an extensive autopsy of the past.

At this point what I am asking for in this thread is for people to provide support and help me if they can.


I will also probably share my experiences with IC when I start it next week. Your continued support (if you are able) will be appreciated.

Thanks everyone.

Chris, I will just point out once again that you are free to put me on ignore or report me to the mods. If you do not like my posts, just take what you want and leave the rest.

I won't mind and I bet Mark won't either!

Melody,

I don't to ignore anyone or report anyone to the mods. I wouldn't want to miss a helpful comment - even ones which I disagree with or ones which are hard to read.


You probably missed this:



You definitely threadjacked and made this about something else when I asked for help with something very specific. What I don't get is why you are behaving this way towards me.

Thinking,

Thanks for sharing the emailed thoughts of the day your received.

I think you're right about coincidences.

Chris, no one has threadjacked your thread. But I will gladly take my leave.

Take care!

Thanks Melody.

Weird, isn't it?

It sounds like you have set a course of action for yourself. Good for you. Finding an IC is on my list this week too. (Not for marriage issues, more for other personal issues that could totally sabatoge the marriage if I don't get a handle on them. I'll probably share on my thread later this week.)

LA,


I saw those and read them several times. After doing that I knew I needed professional help. That's the truth.
BTW - I mentioned this before but it's worth sating again - My decision to participate in IC is not really based on a thoughtful request from my DH. I am doing it for me. I need and want peace. It's really that simple. I hope that doesn't change your support of my decision.


At first I tended not to read the SAA threads, but I have begun to see many similarities as you said.

As always, thanks for your comments. They are always a learning experience for me.

Sounds like we are on a similar journey as far as that is concerned. I feel that me addressing my personal / internal issues will make it easier for me to use MB to work on my marriage... but what I am really expecting to see is an improvement in all areas of my life.

I'll be looking for your thread. Please be on the look out for mine if you can.

It would help if you just have one thread and keep posting your various issues in one place. I can keep up because I'm on alot, but at some point, when you are vet and your marriage is in recovery and people want to see how you got from point A to point B, having it all in one place will be a great gift!

(Hows that for encouragement?)

I think it's hard to stick with one thread too. And I kinda like the "topical" type threads as opposed to airing my dirty laundry like a weird public journal. But I guess I will get used to it! I just hope none of this gets published when I run for president! LOL

That's a little tough for a few reasons...I tend to think of things and experience things in a compartmentalized fashion and I have very specific questions about the MB program.

For example, my very first thread was me dealing with the initial shock of first being told that my spouse was planning a divorce. I've moved on from that.

In this thread I had a mini mental melt down down as my Taker rose up.

There's another thread I started because I had questions about Dishonesty as described in the Love Busters book. I wanted to know about other people's experiences, whether it was a common difficulty (turns out it is ), and I hoped folks would share their methods for dealing with it. I feel that as I learn more, I'll have more specific "how to" questions...

The thread about my IC will be a separate "issue".

I really don't know how to tie this al together into one thread.

I'm just like that. And I never linked it with the compartmentalization before, but that's very telling. I have been makeing huge efforts to NOT compartmentalize so much, because I recognize that it's on way that I avoid accountability. I'm "Nice Girl A" at church, "Nice Girl B" with my family of origin, "Sometimes Nice, Sometimes Wicked Girl C" with my husband, "Nice Girl D" with my friends. I dreaded my wedding day because all my compartmentalized worlds were going to collide! The world did not end though, and it was really neat to have all my worlds in one place. For that day, I was "Radiant Girl E" to everyone.

I've always had a hard time with the single thread etiquette here though, for exactly the same reason. I have specific questions about specific topics. Except I kept getting the same darn answer "Use ALL of the MB program." GRRRR That is so annoying Mark and ML!!!!! But I do love you guys! So I started my own thread.

I totally understand

OK everyone PLEASE...Tell me if this is "normal":

I am still doing MB with my spouse but I feel like I'm losing steam. Specifically, I am avoiding LBs but I today I seem to have grown weary with attempting to meet ENs. A friend of mine pointed out today that I appeared upset and agitated the last time she saw me and she asked about the situation (she knows about all of this) and today she said I looked detached and indifferent when she asked.

I asked her to describe life as a divorcee and the more she shared the more and more interested I became...I even tried picturing myself like that. Starting over with someone new and non-violent / non-angry. Falling in love again, but making sure I choose a man who was different and who was willing to use MB practices. I became curious & I asked her to tell me more about dating. When she saw what I was doing, she stopped the conversation. COLD. She said she did that because she is aware that I was trying to save my marriage.

So, I thought I would try a little...test. I stood really close to my husband as he was leaving for class just now...just to see if I would FEEL anything.

I FELT NOTHING. All I could think about is how wide he looks. Why did my mind go there?

Someone please tell me - What exactly is happening to me?

The other day after our most recent "Big Talk", I thought I was starting to feel something but just now - nothing nada...ziltch - except for maybe...a little disgust. I am also more at peace today because I did not commute with him and he has class tonight so he is gone. That makes me feel more peaceful, than if he were downstairs reading his school books or watching TV.

GAH!

Please tell me - is this a normal result of being in a non-infidelity Plan A for too long? Is this a sign I need to stop my Plan A, and intiate Plan B - ask him to move out and not to contact me again unless it's to set up Marriage Coaching with Dr. H? OR Is this day to day variation in energy & enthusiasm "normal"?

I personally don't think you are giving it enough time.

I also think you have a very good friend.

LOL!

I understand, and she is a good friend. But I am fearful because of these feelings of disgust. What do I do about them?
Will my MB behavior create good feelings for me although I am doing lots of giving? Mel said the danger is in the resentment fo giving and giving for too long. God knows - I had that problem already.

Your feelings are the result of an empty Love Bank.

Might even be a bit on the overdrawn side.

Mark

PS No, this is not my shortest post ever.

OK, WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MARK???

Watch out, here comes a mild 2x4.

It sounds like you are using MelodyLane's statement as a justification for your feelings of "disgust."

You have latched onto the same thing I want to latch onto . . . .that time frame. I want to know that I only have to be a giving wife for X days without reciprocation before I can justify not trying anymore. It doesn't work that way, because a justification is just a lie that I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

You don't have to justify your feelings. You can't control them, they are what they are. If they are positive feelings, you can celebrate and enjoy them. If they are negative feelings, you can choose to feed them until they consum you, or you can choose to wait them out while taking care of yourself.

Here's what I think about resentment. It's not about giving and giving without reciprocity. Resentment is the direct result of my expectation of another person's behavior. And I can't control another person's behavior, no matter what I give or withold. They choose, not me. So why in the heck would I have an expectation of someone whom I can't control anyway? It makes no sense.

The solution to resentment is to stop having expectations of other people. I replace my expectations with personal boundaries and consequences.

Wow. I'm speechless.

Here's another quick thing to think about, LA-style.

What I dislike about another person, what causes me disgust, is in me too. So I use my negative feelings about another person to jumpstart my introspection about that facet of my own personality. I try to see it, recognize, make friends with it, see its motives, etc. I try to have compassion for that part of myself that I want to deny, and as I do this, I begin to have compassion for that which I see in the other person, instead of disgust.

Mark? Is that you?!




OK - so what can I do to fight it off. Look @ old pics of him / us together? Fanatsize about him @ nite (we're still not co-sleeping)? What?

Wow, those sound like GREAT ideas!

I don't have any old pics of me and my husband when we were dating. I was in a downward spiral of depression when we started dating. In fact, I hardly take any pictures of anything. Aside from my first child's first year of life and a few pictures every few months of the kids, nothing. It's really sad, because I was at one time a professional photographer and am actually really talented.

My H and I are *so* much better than we were 6-8 months ago... blended family issues aside. (Seriously... I was at the point I honestly - and I hate admitting this, it's embarrassing - was wishing him dead and now the only thing we're really having problems with is the kids.)

I still have days where I look at him, and just don't "feel it". The love bank is still having ups and downs (we have trouble with our schedules finding enough time for SLEEP, much less proper UA) and my feelings of attraction go with it. And if I'm upset over the kids, it's worse.

So I can vouch that at least for me it's a back and forth, up and down, two steps forward one step back kinda thing.

And some days I question if I did the right thing sticking it out.

Some days I'm immensely grateful I did.

Maybe in a year or three I'll know what the right choice was.

Why mild? Make all my 2x4s extra spicy please.


Not at all...just trying to figure out if what I am experiencing is typical.


I'm sleeping at night anyway...I don't think about the fact that my H is sleeping downstairs in the guest bedroom or that he's taking "time" to sort out his feelings (do MEN actually do that? I mean - am I kidding myself here or what? Wouldn't most guys try to sleep /have sex with the wife anyway?) I try not to think "MY BED IS EMPTY BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT ME." I think about all the gym time I'll be getting in soon and how fabulous I'll look in a few months. And - I don't even want to type out what I sometimes think of next. Let's just say - I plan to have a very full social calendar from this point forward.


Roger.

Truthfully, my interest is finding an answer and guaging whether my reactions are typical. If they are, & folks here have seen this before - they can advise me on how to deal with them.


OK. So, I should stop expecting that he'll respond to my MB efforts. That is very hard to do. But - if I had a timeframe (like we talked about above) for saying "enough is enough" that would be a boundary right? DH can't keep me waiting (and giving) forever.

I was thinking that in about 2 weeks, I will ask him to fill out the ENs & LBs Questionnaire and then book some more sessions w/ Dr. H for myself.

**Please don't ever hold back on a 2x4 for me.

Good point. Thanks Thinking.

TTT, I understand where you are going with this, howevr this philosophy sounds much better on paper than it is in practice. Feelings just ARE. If we are not honest about them and/or try to deny them, they just get worse. Better to acknowledge the thing that disgusts us and then work to eliminate it. I am disgusted by many things, for example, and not because they are personal traits - they are not - but just becasue that is my emotional reaction. If I feel disgust towards something my H does then he EXPECTS to be honest about that. And vice versa.

I realize Chris in not in a position to reveal that kind of honesty with her H, but IMO, denying it makes it worse. In a typical non-Plan A situation, the solution would be radical honesty with that spouse about your complaint so he can change it. Enduring a behavior that is "disgusting" is a lovebuster that leads to the erosion of love. So allowing that to fly is harmful to the marriage.

Chris [no more talking about you in the 3rd person............sorry! ] what happens with extreme giving is the narrative changes to: "BY GOD, I HAVE GIVEN AND GIVEN AND IT IS MY TURN TO GET!!" The taker comes out with an unholy entitlement minded vengence to settle the dang score! And when the score is not settled, punishment ensues. That is exactly why Dr Harley speaks so strongly against sacrifice. I think you are VERY WISE to stay alert to attitudes like that and I applaud you for staying aware. That is a dangerous place to go.

p.s. to thinkithrough and Chris, I just LOVE YOU GUYS to pieces! You are doing such a wonderful job researching, questioning, discussing and learning this program. You are just AWESOME and are an asset to the forum. I wish I would have worked as hard as you guys when I first arrived, I would have saved myself a lot of grief!

So..AC - you're saying it's typical? I am relieved.

Thinking, you liked the ideas about looking @ old pics & nighttime fantasizing...Check.

Ladies & Gents,

This is very hard. In some ways, it seems like Divorcing would be easier. At least then, I would know the outcome. It's the uncertainty which makes it so tough. That and the fact that I'm working the MB program by myself.

So, Friday night I have a movie date with some female friends to watch The Secret. DH offered to drop me off at the house. (Odd, since I am allowed to drive now.) He also planned a "boys night" (going to a bar with his friends'0 out for Saturday after we get back from spending the day together shopping. (Our child will be @ a friend's house all day Sat thru Sunday morning.)

It is very hard at first. The difference is that if it works there is a payoff: a great marriage. On the other hand, if it doesn't work, the payoff will be divore.


I am sorry to hear that. do you have some ideas on how you can persuade him to go out with you alone?

]
I missed this! Does he ENJOY SHOPPING, Chris? My husband HATES it and would be miserable.

We are going alone. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

He LOVES shopping.

Guess what?

DH spontaneously decided to sit with me & eat his dinner & talk with me just now instead of disappearing to the lower floor!

Progress!

Chris, I think it sounds normal, too. One point in time. Divorcing may be easier, I don't know, but I did feel like I was learning a lot about myself and becoming a person that I liked again, and I would do this married or single. So I thought, might as well do this married, because who knows, I may just turn this around? And if not, if I didn't turn it around, by the time I got healthy again, and some time after that, then in the meantime, at least my kids were just with me and their dad, instead of getting used to other strange folks. And I found lots of reasons to stay when I wanted to, too. Do you ever watch your H sleep? So peaceful, you get to see your H that you fell in love with again. And do you ever lay on his shoulder? Isn't it just incredible? And hug him when he comes out of the shower? Doesn't he smell so fresh, just like you remember?

Or touch his face the day he shaves?

You lucky DAWG!!

Mel<----green with envy

My husband loves shopping too... as long as we're buying clothes or such for me... he HATES spending money on himself. And he is FABULOUS at picking out clothes that look INCREDIBLE on me. Which is a good thing, because I *am* the AntiChick... I'd wear nothing but jeans and t-shirts & sweats given the opportunity. He also *MADE* my wedding dress.

Jealous yet?

He also cooks and cleans and does laundry. (When he feels like it, but it's more often than *I* feel like it...)

If I could clone him, I'd be a rich woman. Well, I'd need to find a way to filter out some of the moodiness, but hey, no one's perfect!!

Don't get me wrong . . . I'm not saying that I should DENY what disgusts me. I'm saying, acknowledge it in my husband, but also acknowledge it in myself. And when I work to elminate it, I work to eliminate it in MYSELF, but work to ACCEPT it in my husband until such time as I can be readically honest with him. Plus, by that time I will have developed some compassion for said defect, and will also have had some experience in elminiating it in myself.

The defect that comes to mind right now is being undisciplined. Both my husband and I are VERY undisciplined about just about everything. I'm maybe a little better about some things, but not much. I see that trait in him and it disgusts me, irritates me, drives me up a wall, and it erodes my respect for him. But when I realize that "if you spot it you got it" I discovered that I feel the same way about that trit in myself. And it unveils another layer of my own self-hatred, which I'm then projecting onto my husband. NOT good! So I am working to become more disciplined myself, so that as I do this, I can inspire my husband by my example. It may not work, and that's not my main motivation . . . my main motivation is respect for myself.

Thanks for the clarification, TTT. But what if you are very self discliplined and he is not? That trait may still be a lovebuster. What constitutes a lovebuster for him, may not for you and vice versa. When you recognize such a trait in him, it doesn't mean you a) have that same trait or b) it constitutes a lovebuster in him.

Or lets say you are both undisciplined, but it doesn't bother him, but it bothers you? The solution is for him to stop because it is a lovebuster. But the reverse is not true. So the answer is for him to CHANGE, not for anyone to accept a behavior that is a lovebuster, because that leads to an erosion of love.

This is an exact description of my husband.

He helped me set my professional wardrobe up when I left the Navy. We went shopping all the time and he recommended styles & colors to flatter me. He does more than his fair share of household type things, and he is quite moody. I attributed the moodiness to his experiences during military service. Anyway, these are things about him which I really appreciate.

I know you're trying to be positive / encouraging Mel...but honestly, I would trade the love for shopping with something else - such as an unwavering committment to our marriage or a peaceful disposition rather than a tendency towards anger. I can go shopping alone or with friends. Besides, people who love to shop sometimes end up with high credit card balances / debt.

Chris, I'm in such a similar position lately. In fact, I'm copying the AC's post and moving it over to my thread.

BTW, I have a husband who self-admittedly has an "inner Martha Stewart". I've learned to just defer to him in matters of paint colors, wall and window decor, accessories, etc. He also has great taste in clothes. He's an OK cook, but when he does cook, the presentation is beautiful. He sets a mean table. He's better at sewing than I am.

I have a better, more stable, higher income earning job history. Why in the world we didn't switch traditional roles...back when our first was born over 19 years ago...

...well I do know. He couldn't bear the thought of being a stay-at-home Dad. Wanted the 'big' corporate job which he has been chasing now, almost 20 years, with varying degrees of success. I would have been extremely happy being a SAHM and gladly gave up my generous six figure job to do so. If we had never switched roles, we'd still be homeowners today with a solid retirement fund and college savings for the kids and a perfect credit record.

Some days, I wish I could have a "do-over".

OH,

I wish for a do-over sometimes too, but in the end I always come back to the idea that no one can predict the future. For example, your H's psyche (or yours) may not have been able to tolerate the role switch. If I knew about MB when I was dating my H, would I have married him - given what MB says about marriages where spouses are seaparted over-night or what MB says about AOs and Domestic Violence? Would I have ended up with another man - Would I have been better off or worse? We don't really know.

All we can really do is focus on & work with what (who - LOL) we have now.

This morning my husband called me @ work & made a thoughtful request. He also referenced his perception of a past behavior as his reason for making the request.

I paused to turn on my MB learnings. I thanked him for the info. I asked him to never be afraid to give me feedback - even if he thinks it might hurt my feelings. I said it's better to have info and be able to correct / address something than not. I assured him I would honor his request and then I started to apologize for the past behavior. But he interrupted me and he immediately retracted his statement about the past behavior and he said "You know what - We said we weren't going to dredge up the past, we're going to concentrate on the future when we communicate with each other." I agreed and then the convo went on in another direction.

Neat!

Last night my husband helped me up to our bedroom. I got completely undressed and got into the bed. He placed the covers over me and kissed me right on the mouth (slowly), and he said, "We'll talk on Saturday."

I was stunned. I think I kissed him back but I'm not sure if I did because I was so shocked / surprised. I held his hand and I said "OK."

I am hoping for something positive for Saturday. I am hoping that I'll come back here on Saturday night and say that we've registered for a Marriage Builders weekend.

Please wish us good luck.

Luck!

(you got lost in the frayed knots, eh?)

?

Great job. Both of you!

Your post from this AM got shifted down, that's all. I think there were six pages added on the POJA thread by the time I got home.

Appears he's responding.

Maybe your postings will be your journal...but overtime hopefully you'll see a bell shaped curve to these "responses".

Until then...expect them to be spaced out and small at first. Also...they will include down cycles like a roller coaster that goes up and down.

In down cycles he MAY be testing this new you...trying to see if you are for real or if this is just an act. It's important to maintain your calmness and composure. Of course, down cycles also may just be an off-day or bad mood...so just keep plugging along.

Good job so far.

Mr. W

Thanks Mr W.

Bookmarking this one too

Ya know...I thought about this a bit more last night and wanted to look into this. Maybe I've missed a conversation (or two) of yours so I'm sorry if this has been discussed already. (which would be on par since my first post to you assumed infidelity).

Anyway...with MB we certainly are not supposed to "dredge up the past", fight about it, or endless rehash it (naval gazing); however, we aren't supposed to bury it and forget about it either.

History is valuable learning tool. History provides a context to a relationship. History will effect your feelings and emotions.

I just wonder if your husband's statement above is more self interested than at first glance it appears. Does he want to completely bury his past behaviors and not have them ever discussed or did he say it because he's geniunely interested in working fully on the marriage? I am not telling you to disrespectfully judge his intentions...as neither of us KNOW what he was thinking and what motivated him; however, going forward keep an eye out for him wanting to NEVER discuss the past at all.

As an example of the difference.

The NFL Detroit Lions suck. Imagine a new coach comes to the football team at training camp this summer and says "We are going to forget the past. We will not discuss it in any way, shape or form...ever. We are a winning team now and the past is the past". 10 weeks later they are in preparations for the 1st regular season game against a divisional opponent that they had just played (and LOST to) the prior season. Of course, they should all watch the game film to prepare for such game. Nobody would stand up and say..."butt coach [sniffle sniffle] you said we will not discuss last season EVER. Isn't watching this old game film from last years 2-14 season rehashing the past???"


I think YOU SEE it...since you were willing to calmly discuss "the past" and begin apologizing for it. But him "cutting you off" could be a sign of him intentionally burying the past...as a NON-topic. As you move through this process he may, at some point, need a reminder that it's OK to TALK about the past...calmly. It's who you two are and how you got where you are today. As you build a relationship of extra-ordinary care and intimacy ANY subject can be discussed (even uncomfortable ones, like the past).

I hope I'm not off point again,

Mr. W

p.s.- Did somebody just say "butt coach"????

I saw it more of him trying to retract the statement because he brought it up himself - and not as a point of "discussion" but to justify his request. I looked at it as he was thinking - "OOps I should have just made the request without bringing that up." And I agree. A thoughtful request does not include references to "bad behavior" in the past.

You did miss quite a bit I am guessing (but I understand - there's a lot to read here and quite a few people here asking for help / advice.) We have been discussing the past quite a bit lately also, we have no infidelity issue. I thnk our issues are:

1) in the past one of our jobs kept us separated for long periods of time. (Military)
2) past instances of domestic violence
3) resentment from me as a result of #2
4) a whole host of LBing behavior on both of our parts.

This weekend we had sex. He initiated it and I participated. It happened after I got home from my Girl's Night to watch the film, The Secret.

In another thread, we were talking about the EN of Sexual Fulfillment and how it may be unhealthy as part of a Plan A or part of a plan to try to draw a spouse out of Withdrawl. Well, here we have a living example. ME.

I am not sure how I feel about it. Part of why I did it was to help me straighten out how I feel about him. It did not really provide me with any answers...I wasn't disgusted but I wasn't head over heels in love either.

I have seen this in the past day or so: My H doesn't like himself very much at the moment. I believe that this may make things difficult for our marriage. How can a person who is not happy with themselves be happy with another person?

Anyway, we did not have another "big talk" as he stated we would ~ two nights ago. Honestly, I am not ready to have another "big talk", so I didn't bring it up...I would rather just relax for a bit and enjoy my new calmer self - who would be OK married to him or not married to him. Last night, I had a wonderful time with the new pals I recently made & I am eager for more. Interestingly, many of them are divorced / separated. One is working on her 3rd marriage. She referred to herself as a "serial monogamist" and revealed that her dad had been married about 3 or 4 times. I found their experiences to be very interesting. Especially the woman who was on her 3rd marriage..She fascinated me because I did not think falling in "Let's Get Married" love 3 times was possible. I wasn't sure that I wanted their lives though.

So my H and I have been hugging and kissing frequently since we had sex last night, and I keep waiting for my "feelings" to align with my actions of touching him and being affectionate but so far my feelings are not lining up with my actions. I realize it's only been a day but do any vets have any input / advice / observations for us & where we are at this point?

Another thing is - I would like to get us registered for an MB Weekend (the soonest one is in May) I am not sure if now is the time to bring it up. I am willing to wait.

Keep at the "actions"...it's not going to be a quick fix. Think of it more as a way of life, whether it works out with this husband or not. Because ultimately, what you are learning here at MB is essentially what Dr. Harley has discovered are the habits of the 20% of married couples that sustain romantic love throughout their enduring marriages.

They ARE good habits.

I've seen it written that it takes 4 to 6 weeks to break a single bad habit with concerted effort. Breaking a host of bad habits, at the same time while trying to incorporate healthy ones that are molded to another also changing and maturing spouse has got to take at least a year or two. Not to mention, when you change the dynamics of your marriage...what you THOUGHT were once your top needs...aren't in fact, your top needs at all...it was just perhaps the top malnourished need.


As far as sex...

My simplistic opinion is...

Women fall in love leading up to sex
Men have sex and then fall in love.

I think you were mistaken to expect to feel anything much AFTER sex with him...however, having sex was a good thing for your marriage.

Also...selling MB to your husband. Besides him liking your changes. MB is also PERFECT for the military guy. It's NOT naval gazing. It's a BATTLE PLAN to save your marriage and SUCCEED (with success being defined beyond mere miserable co-existence). Plus, it's a cure for his depression. My wife and I rebuilt our marriage. It's a success no one can take away from us. The economy can fail. Businesses can fail. Kids can disappoint. But I'm successful at "husband" and Mrs. W is successful at "wife" no matter what. Marriage can be the wellspring of happiness and mental stability.

Good luck...Mr. W

I disagree with Mr Wondering on his simplification:


I know too many cases of it being otherwise.

But he is right about sex being good for your marriage.
It is vital for your marriage.
Like fuel for your automobile, you aren't going anywhere without it.

Last night I participated in this again. It was easier than the last time. He was "waiting" for me in the bed. And, he was very much aroused and very much into it. At this point, he is being far more affectionate. Started kissing me goodbye in the a.m. as we're leaving for work. I continue to be affectionate as well - I place my hand on his back & rub it while we're driving, touch him lovingly in small ways throughout the day.....things like that. I am doing this and thinking "feelings follow behavior." MB is marriage based. The thing is - I am feeling very confused, but I am not sure why. It may be because I am feeling a little "used"...((groan)) I don't know...Not sure. I also keep wondering if there's someone else out there for me. Wondering if I am making a mistake by trying to save this marriage.

I am trying with all my mental might to manage these feelings.

Not sure if they're linked to the sex. I guess they aren't. I mean - I recall typing these same thoughts here earlier when he and I were barely speaking, not co-sleeping, & I was first trying to do MB. Maybe they are linked to this-->

I have been snooping because of some things I saw on the SAA threads...People being blindsided because they just "knew" there was no way their spouse could be cheating. In his email I found some porn site subscriptions (free 3 day trials & then the cancellations). On the online billing records for our cell phones I found quite a bit of text message activity between him and a female friend - knew about the friend but didn't know how frequent the communications were, and on his cell phone I found text message exchange between him and someone (a woman) which made my heart jump:


My H NEVER tells me I am pretty or calls me "Pretty Lady." In the past, when I asked him why, he said he "just isn't that type of person."

This made me look a little more into the billing records for the cell phones and I found a few more exchanges but I couldn't see exactly what was said or sent because he has already erased it from his cell phone. Within minutes I was able to find out exactly who this woman was, her address, her employment info and her Facebook Page. They aren't friends on Facebook and the cell phone contact seems to be sporadic. There are a few brief calls as well.

Do I think he's having an affair? No. But I do think he has flirted and is flirting with this woman.

I thought that I should take a page from Mark1952's book & become his "best option" and keep the info I discovered to myself while being on the lookout for more info of the same. Am I right to handle it this way or should I confront him with what I found?

I am nervous because he seems to be emerged from Withdrawl. I don't want to make the wrong move now.

Oh no...the folks in SAA feelthat my H is having an affair. What am I going to do now?

Mark? LA? Someone!

Pray, pray, pray. You can do this, Chris! Many have been in your shoes before, and recovered stronger marriages with their spouses than they ever had before.

(((Hugs)))

I can do this you say? What can I do?

I am in a Plan A without him knowing that I know about these texts / phone calls! Should I just keep going with the Plan A being that he appears to be responding so well?

OMG...I need to breathe & calm down!

Chris, I replied on your other thread. I am so sorry. Better days are ahead. You have the resources here and your faith to make it through. (((Hugs))) Do you have any friends IRL who have been through infidelity, to get some local support, too?

You also may want to consider reading through the articles Dr. Harley has here on the use of porn in marriage.

Porn can negatively affect a marriage, as much as having an actual affair. I also think porn and affairs are similar in that they both encourage fantasy.

Any chance you can install a key logger on your computer, to see, exactly, what your husband is doing?

NO NED. I have one friend who had infidelity & ended up in a divorce. The other people I know choose to look the other way.

this is all confusing....I get that sex is good as I enjoy it also BUT with that said I keep thinking of how we are instructed to not reward BAD behavior...when my sons were small and one would begin pounding on the other I would seperate that boy for the other 2....time out...let him calm down and talk to him...then to his 2 other brothers....what I didn't do is give him a cookie and tell him he is a good boy for that behavior.

So I guess I equate meeting spouses sex needs in this way...he treats me with neglect and IB....no UA time whatsoever for yrs....but I keep meeting his EN for sex....so he never changes the IB or UA....his EN's are met and he has no motivation to change to meet my EN's....get my thinking?

Yet I agree with what all has been said here on both sides and the other threads too....there really is 2 sides to the coin here...I want him to change but I don't use with holding sex as a means to motivate him....but I see no result from being a very loving sexual partner to him either.

This last rift is 5mo's long and for the 1st time in our marriage I truly can't even force myself to touch him in a sexual way nor do I want him to touch me at this point that way....I would feel like that's all I am good for and he doesn't NEED me for anything else....heck you can pay a hooker $20 on the street conner and get it w/o meeting that woman's EN's...just a $20 bill.

Sorry I am ranting but oh well I am human and need to vent also.

My sincerest thanks for that suggestion. I will read.

I will admit that I look @ pornography too. He knows about it, so I didn't feel that it was causing any problems.

Oh - about the porn:

Neither of us are "addicted" to it. It's an infrequent thing. For example, since 2005 I found 4 free trial subscriptions to porn.

Also, he has always initiated sex with me. Sadly, I rejected him more than I should have. Since I found MB I vowed not to do that again if twe ever got back to a place where he initiated it. He's back in that place now & I am participating.

Good to hear about the porn not being an issue. Sometimes, it can get overlooked.

Well, there is the bigger issue...

Chris,

The good news is that the steps to bringing a spouse out of withdrawal and back into commitment to the marriage are the same with or without an affair.

I will also venture that he doesn't think he is having an affair because he has probably not yet decided that he is in love with OW.

Find out as much as you can about how often he had contact with her. Try to find FACTS that indicate how much he is invested in this. Examine your own commitment to saving the marriage and act from THAT.

I'm going to be out most of the day so I'm going not be of a lot of help for most of today, I'm afraid.

My take is that eventually you will have to talk to him about this. When you do come at the problem from the perspective of having come to realize that something has been missing from the relationship and you want to rectify that. Ask that he not have any contact with her in order that your own marriage can blossom as you work on fixing what has been broken for so long.

Maybe not the best words, but I hope you get my meaning here.

You have to confront without making it a do or die, line in the sand, accusatory confrontation that leads to war.

Does that make sense?

If you find that there is more than just smoke and that a fire is raging, then begin steps to expose what is going on. He probably does not see the problem with flirting. It is a problem because if he is getting his ENs met by someone else it will lead to a full blown affair eventually unless he chooses to stop before it gets there.

If you haven't already done so, look at the late Shirley Glass' website. Not Just Friends Look at the quizzes she has there. Many answers as to just how vulnerable your marriage really is can come from those quizzes.

Mark

Yes, that is good news.


That's going to be toughie...not sure how I can do that without exposing that I know what I know.

As far as my feelings, I am not sure how I feel yet. Right now I would like to continue doing the Plan A & collecting more info if possible.



Yes, it does.



Thank you Mark.

Chris,

Stay steady...breathe...listen to Mark and others on your SAA thread...know that you'll know the truth.

Just not this second.

You are gathering information to understand the truth. Kudo yourself and breathe some more. Might be part of his divorce speech, might not. You don't know until you get there, and you will get there.

Have no doubt about that. You're you.

Stay present in mind for right this minute...because your H has been doing marriage, love, support, reacting with love to your changes, and I believe, having loving feelings. I do believe you both have been mostly transparent with each other...except for the times you weren't...like when H didn't tell you he was unhappy and frustrated.

And then he told you. Stay aware and keep to your plan...I know everything seems different with your new information...and your mind is definitely widened to include what you didn't include before...and yet, until you really know, everything is not different.

Just like coming to MB...feels at first, learning all about the basic concepts, rules of marriage...everything feels changed. Nothing changes until you begin doing MB.

LA

Stupid me...This was 3/14 @ ~ 6 p.m.

Chris, the mods can combine your threads for you. That way, your ENTIRE story will be easily accessible for everyone here.

I asked ~ 15 minutes ago. Thanks OH.

Ok, good to know. I just saw your comment that they delete a thread; didn't realize you'd asked to have threads combined as well.

I think you'll find the posters here better equipped to respond to you and help you, once your story is on one basic thread.

Again, thank you for the suggestion.

LA,

are you saying to keep working MB Plan A (meeting ENs, refraining from LBing behavior) and not focuing on whether he may be screwing around?

LA, AIDS is real. I am now ethusiastically having sex with someone who may or may not have had sex with a third party.

Can you be blatant and blunt with what you are saying here. It seemed a bit etherial to me.

Sincerest thanks.

I would absolutely not have unprotected sex with him at this point. I don't know how to get around not having sex without letting on what you already know, and as you also probably already know, letting him know you know is a bad idea until you're ready to confront with irrefutable proof and nuclear exposure. Ya know?

Get tested for STDs, do not have unprotected sex w/him until he's been tested as well. You may have a few days of...oh, I don't know, a yeast infection?...while you continue snooping. Ew. Sorry! (for all of it, not just my icky suggestion)

If you listen to Mark and the others (spying 101), then you will know the truth. Just won't know it overnight.

Yes, AIDS is real. And having SF when you suspect an affair is a really tough call...no one I know of in my years on MB has gotten AIDS from their WS...a few and possibly more than a few, have gotten herpes and other STDs, though.

You seemed very sure about his whereabouts and that his possible A wasn't physical (yet)...I believe you're a person who doesn't hide from the truth, doesn't half-do their research, so I wasn't as concerned about meeting SF EN.

However, that doesn't mean your concern about AIDS isn't valid, 'k? Plan A verifies, exposes, and yes, you both get STD tests depending on what you find out.

And you shore up loose boundaries with the opposite sex (both personal and marital boundaries)...and you may not want to do any of that.

If he is in an EA (without the physical component), what do you want to do? Do you want to recover your marriage?

If he is in an EA/PA what do you want to do?

Your goals, what you set, matter. My prior post came from me remembering what I wanted to hear when I was where you are...my own fear for my high level reactivity, fear, anger and pain.

And me wishing you didn't have to feel a single moment of any of it.

LA

The problem is - everyone here says that you know in your heart that your spouse is having an affair. Mr W & Mark allude to thinking that he may be headed that way but hasn't quite sealed the deal...especially now with the turn around. In my heart I do not "feel" an affair. I feel ego pumping with flirting. The SIM card reader should confirm or deny in just a few days.

I've already had unprotected sex with him for 11 or 12 years...up to and including this past Saturday and last night.

What would be the point of having a yeast infection now? Spite?

The focus isn't his EA (or gawd forbid - PA) it's making our marriage the best option for him, no?

Anyway - if the SIM card reader confirms an affair, I am guessing that the vets will say I'll need to stop the sex and take other measures. Can anyone tell me if I'm right? And if so - what those measures may be?

With so many threads moving so fast I don't know where to go with this but since I posted here this morning, this is where I'm at...

The first thing you have to do is to get control of your emotional reactions to all of this. Yeah, I know it is an emotional topic but if you act from your emotions you will likely get responses that are equally as emotionally charged and still have nothing tin the way of real data that you can take hold of.

There are few things that you can do to improve the odds of you coming out this with an intact, healthy and happy marriage. Unfortunately there are many more things that you can do that will decrease that likelihood significantly.

A couple of things you already have going in your favor. 1) He has been responding well to the new and improving (improved) version of Chris that he has been interacting with the last few days. 2) Most men have no intent of leaving their wife in order to take up with someone they might see as a possible side dish in their life. (Everybody can spare me the stories of men who did not fit this profile since that is not the discussion we are having right now and I am not saying all men, just most)

The real damage done in an actual EA is the comparison that takes place in the mind of the wayward spouse. This is not a fair comparison in which actual condition of the marriage is compared to actual attributes of the EA but rather a comparison of all the things wrong with the marriage against the fantasy that surrounds the potential for the EA. If the marriage very quickly shows itself to be better than the affair, at least for most men, that fantasy crumbles pretty quickly.

As Mr W pointed out on another thread today, a real LOVE affair would probably be much more addictive in behavior than what you have so far. My wife did not have a handful of inappropriate emails and text messages. She had HOURS of phone calls, late into the night, before dawn the next morning with emails that included risque' pictures in between. They talked on the way to work, during break, during lunch, on the way home from work, while I was in the shower in the morning, during the ten minute trip to the store for milk at 10pm that took 40 minutes to complete though we'd been out of milk for three days by then.

This is the way people "in love" act...

re: Sex during Plan A...

If this woman is "No good white trash ho" and sleeps her way around every weekend with a different guy, and if your husband has already had sex with her then the possibility of sex leading to something horrible in the way of an STD is already likely since sex has increased between you and your husband recently anyway. If she is a bored or neglected housewife who sees your husband as her dalliance on the side, she probably isn't a walking AIDS platform looking for a place to start a new epidemic.

You know her FB page, right?

What does she say about herself there?

Is she married?

Does she have kids?

Information...

Data...

REAL stuff...

These are things that can tell you what you need to know about who she is and what her investment is in any relationship she might actually see herself in with your husband.

You need to very quickly gather info that you can use to confront him about this OW. By quickly I mean a day or two not three weeks of letting your own attitude toward him deteriorate to the point where you are fighting your own emotions constantly in order to just interact with him.

Again, you can do a few things that will make ending up with a great marriage more likely and a whole bunch of things that reduce that percentage, so understand, plan and act instead of reacting to what you really don't yet know. It is hard to win back a spouse who has decided to move on to someone else. It is all too easy to push them that direction.

Stop, breathe, pray, gather data and let's come up with a plan.

BTW, SIM card readers cannot tell you what was on the SIM card that has already been deleted. SIM card readers do no good at all for any phone that doesn't have one (Sprint, VZW, US Cellular, other CDMA networks). Only GSM family carriers use them. (ATT, T-mobile, Nextel IDEN, Dobson, etc)

As far as I know, there is no way to get actual contents of deleted text messages once they have been deleted on ANY network, even by legal subpoena. The carriers don't keep those records because they don't record those things. The government can get a cloned device that will intercept them but for the public they are not legal.

SMS (text message) records usually indicate a trend at best. If there are typically 5 or ten SMS interactions in a month and suddenly there are three hundred and 250 of them are between the same two phones, that is a trend likely to indicate an affair.

5 SMS interactions per month does not indicate an affair, though it probably does indicate pretty poor boundaries when those interactions contain what you have discovered so far.

So far you know that he has contact with this woman and that the way they interact is inappropriate. THIS is why you need to snoop further to find out what is going on for sure. Yeah, I know, everyone else was surprised to find out about the affair, myself included, but there were other red flags as well and unless this has already become a PA, the odds are still in your favor.

Not saying there is no affair of any kind here, gang. I am saying that even though not the right way for coworkers to interact with each other, the one exchange is not really enough to jump off the bridge over.

we can assume what is going on or we can surmise what is happening but it would take more than a couple of text messages for me to file for divorce no matter what was in the messages (unless of course they were confessions of undying love and commitment to living happily ever after once the "problem" is taken care of.)

So far you have been acting as if the enemy of your marriage is Withdrawal. Even if there is an affair the weapon that will work best is the same weapon. You might need to fight with exposure if you can confirm more than inappropriate actions, but at this point your only real options are to find out more, and in absence of any more evidence (not more interpretations to the existing evidence) then your best option, IMO, is to talk to him directly about his interaction with this coworker and maybe to call her out and ask her why she is flirting with your husband.

If it is an affair this in itself will tell you the truth based on the reaction you get. If they are flirting (yeah, that is not the right thing to do if you are supposed to be protecting your marriage) then they will probably quit without much fight. If you get "You're not the boss of me" kind of response then you can assume there is more than just flirting and if you get wailing weeping and gnashing of teeth (that's how the bible describes Hell, BTW) then you know that he is emotionally invested beyond thinking she might be pretty (A lady we already agree she is not).

KNOW what you are up against.
THINK about what you will do.
ACT instead of reacting.

If you think you are in danger because you think this OW might be that "No good uptown, slept with every guy around, stuck on eyelash, no good white thrash ho" then stop having sex with him until the confrontation and see about testing before resuming. But if she's a bored housewife, statistically you are in pretty good territory and since you have already had sex with him if he has already slept with her you have already been exposed to anything she might have already given him.

Mark

Mark,

Thank you.



More info - Tonight my H was waiting for me with a big kiss at the door. He had set the dinner table and put our food in the oven. Previously he would eat down stairs alone in front of the TV.


After dinner we were alone & we were talking. I had the opportunity to ask him directly if he's ever cheated on me in the 11 years we've been together. He said no. I asked him if he's ever thought about it or been tempted to. He responded and said that he has thought about it and been tempted to, particularly after the incident between us in 2006. I also broached the topic of privacy and confirmed he is a firm believer of some privacy in marriage (I knew this from before) & that married people should not violate what little privacy there is between them. I told him that my stance is different, and explained my position about the concept of "privacy" in marriage. We did not have the same POV. I said that this looks like something we have different opinions on & no one conflict is more important than our relationship. I said that IMO it's more important that we understand each others' POV. There was more and I felt this was a good conversation. I am hoping that we can go to MB training together soon and he can learn about marital privacy from the MB perspective. We also talked about his friendship with the former subordinate. I spoke on how they talk alot and they were even accused of fraternization the last time they deployed. He just doesn't see it as anything inappropriate. He joked about how far way she lived, rolled his eyes and said "Yeah - we fly to meet each other. When I go to work evry day, I'm really flying to meet her. Then I fly back every evening." He said insulted that I may not trust or respect him. I assured him that I do trust and respect him, I just have a different POV.

Part of what I discovered during this conversation is:

1) There is virtually no way for me to tell him that I found that text in absentia of other damning evidence.
Mark, in my research I found that the reader will pick up messages which the user "deletes" on the phone that have not been overwritten yet. One the message is overwritten it is supposedly "gone" for real. My plan is to download each night when he is in the shower. I will do this for a month to see what pops up. i confirmed that the reader is compatible with his cell phone.

2) Looking him in the eye and speaking with him, I still do not "feel" an affair.
Everyone over @ SAA says "you'll feel it" and "you'll know." Well, I have no feelings of the kind. What I do feel is that I have a spouse who doesn't erect appropriate boundaries....a spouse who was feeling unattractive and wanted some kind of affirmation from an outside source / another female...a spouse who could use some MB 2 x 4ing.

After my initial rush of emotions today, I am very calm.

I have the "pretty lady's" full name, workplace info, highschool grad info, and Facebook Page URL. Her status says "in a relationship." I really don't think there's anything there. There just isn't much contact.

I sent a friend request to the "friend" who lives in AZ under the guise of her mentioning to my H that she wanted to purchase something from me. The message began with "Hi It's Chris, Daniel's wife." I let my H know that I sent it too. I told him I was protecting my territory. He smiled.

BTW - part of my snooping was logging into his FB account. I found ziltch.

Chris, thank you so much for sharing your story here. It has been wonderful to have a fellow "questioner" to share my MB journey with, and I feel so sad that yours has taken this recent turn. I'm off for a few days to "process" my own emotional stuff, but I wanted to let you know that I'll be thinkig about you and praying that you have guidance and direction.

Hi Chris,

I am so sorry that you are going through this new revelation. IMHO your *instincts* can usually be trusted - if you are being honest with yourself, and not purposefully turning a blind eye because you aren't yet ready to "see" the truth. Just be careful, there are many who have said "he would *never*..." and then found out that he had. SW's XH was a particularly bad example. It was much worse than she or any of us ever imagined. But then again, from what she posted, there was a lot worse "vibe"...

I guess what I'm trying to say is, continue to snoop but don't burn any bridges. Especially don't tip your hand before you're ready, even if a PA is found.

You are already getting great advice, I can't add anything to it really.

The main thing I wanted to say is, you have used names (RL names?) and you may want to consider editing them out.

*hugs* You are in my thoughts. If I had any suggestions to offer you weren't already getting, I'd post more to you. But I don't, so... *hugs*.

I posted this to you on your thread in SAA but i wanted to make sure you read it, so i am putting here too!

Chris i too think there are many in this situation.

My h does not even know how to use a computer or how to text someone, he carried on his A during the day using his work cell phone that i could not track.

And they did not have much contact at first, the real contact began after the PA started because the EA had already developed at work. They got to see each other every morning and talk on the phone a lot during the day and as far as work knew since they were co-workers located in different parts of the city it was "no big deal" that they were calling each other as they would need to talk during the day for work related stuff, only it wasn't work related. And she was good about leaving her jobsite and going to his jobsite on a daily basis.

And my h was also the perfect h at home too and we were having great sex all the time as well. And he told me he loved me every day, as a matter of fact he acted exactly the same as he always had, until the PA started and then i instantly "knew".

I am telling you this because I do not want you to react "emotionally" but i do not want you to "bury your head in the sand" either.

Thanks Jayne.

I really don't feel it. No blind eye / eyes for me. Also, last night I did a cell phone check and an online cell phone bill check.




That's the plan.


No real names in any of my posts - not even my Username


Thanks so much. I appreciate the support.

Here's a part of last night's conversation which I didn't share - the way the conversation ended. I asked my H if there's anything he'd like to see more of or less of from me. He basically told me he liked what I was doing... I said I had a request for something I would like to see more of, but I was too embarrassed to say it out loud. So, I wrote it on a post it note, folded the post it note up, left it with him, and promptly disappeared.

Later that night my H came to me and told me he was going up to bed. I told him I would be right behind him - I just needed to finish up something on the computer (I was actually finishing a post here LOL.) Well...after about 20 minutes, he called to me from upstairs and asked "Chris, are you coming to bed now?" Keep in mind that just a week or 2 ago, we were not co-sleeping because he was considering whether or not he wanted to stay married. So being the new-and-improved-Chris-on-MB flirt that I am, I asked "Do you want me up there?" He said in a bashful way "Well, I was just checking to see if you were coming up." When I got up there he was *waiting* just like last night, and when things got started I could tell that he was using the request I wrote on that post it note.

SC, thanks for your honesty.

Here are my thoughts: Our interactions have improved SO dramatically and in such a short period of time. I am very happy about that, but I am also a bit skeptical about it too. Frankly, I guess that deep down I didn't expect to see this kind of result for us from MB and I didn't expect to see it in such a short span of time. Seems like it's too good to be true in a way.

I also feel good and bad about this--> On the topic of AO, which is a LB he does on me, he started to have an AO when we were discussing the "privacy in marriage" issue and I firmly said "Please - do not talk to me that way." In response to that, he stopped the AO and we were able to talk about our POVs respectfully from that point. That's the good - because we talked about this before....about him AOing and about me saying NO to it. Here's the bad: He is still stuck on "This is just the way that I talk" with regard to his use of curse words / profanity. I don't like that, and I think he could use some MB training so he can understand exactly what AO is and how it affects a marriage.

My feelings about doing the SF are conflicted too. On one hand I know I should not cherry pick my H's ENs and I should view SF as a legitimate need....giving it as much effort as the other ENs and I have been doing that. (In the thread about SF as an EN, Not2 made SO much sense with this); however, I am still troubled by my discovery of that "Hey baby pretty lady" text, I am upset that he doesn't view his friendship with Ms. Arizona as crossing any lines, and I also feel a little guilty about my snooping.

I know that the snooping is something I have to do, so I am not going to bury my head in the sand SC- I'm going to be doing it. I am going to visually check his work cell phone too. He keeps in in a briefcase by the door - should be easy pickings.

I do believe that if I discover proof of a PA, I will have to call a cease and desist on the SF thing immediately...not necessarily for fear of disease becasue it's definitely too late for that now - but to protect my mental health. In the face of proof that there has been an affair or proof that one is ongoing plus with the knowledge that he looked me in the eyes last night and said he has NEVER cheated on me in the 11 years we have been together, I would suffer too much during the sex act(s) to see it (them) through.

Again, thank you. I will not be burying my head.

Mark,

I re-read your comment a few times. You're right. The trick is to gather the data / info while managing my emotions, and time is of the essence.

I would really like help with developing a plan as you said.

I am also thinking that an MB Weekend / MB coaching will give me the oppportunity to address "boundaries" and the friendship with Ms. Arizona and the inappropriate text between him & "pretty lady" without specifically stating I found the text. Is that the way I go if I find nothing?

Another not-so-random thought:

I am not sure if our marriage can be saved if I discover my H is having or has had an affair because - knowing him - he would be so angry that I snooped he would try to make it all about that rather than what he has done. Although that's a common and expected reaction for WHs and WWs and we here @ MB have a "plan of action" for that, I am not sure I could take that insult along with the original injuries and keep going with this marriage. This reasoning still applies if there is nothing found and I feel like I have to confront him about the text message I found.

Does anyone have any input about that?

It CAN survive....Just take a look-see at the Recovery Forum and the many fine VETS around here.


.......THAT'S what MY H said. And every other silly Wayward line from the "Guide to Waywardness". And EVERY wayward gets over it. Once a person becomes inficted with Wardwarditous, their brains are so mushy that they shout such perverbial idiodicities that they can't keep up with they said.....



Ahhhhhhh...now THAT is the truer issue. Whether or not YOU can handle him having had an affair. The thing is you will go through a roller-coaster of emotions. The best thing I can advise is not to make any rash decisions. Just because you find out he's having an affair today, doesn't mean you have to file for a divorce tomorrow.....Like Schoolbus has on her siggy line...."I can get a divorce anytime, but I only have today to work on my marriage"....or something to the effect.

If you find out he's having an affair, we will help you with what YOU are dealing with. And I would support your decision no matter what you decide.

BUT, first, let's find out what's really going on.....

No sense in "borrowing troubles".....



Funny you ask. Dr. H just sent out a newletter titled..."Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage?"....

Here's the link.....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

not2fun

I had my first session of IC today. My therapist is working to continue the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) with me. Basically it's a limitted number of sessions where the therapist & patient work on the Stimulus -> Thought-> Feelings / Emotions dynamic with a focus on the "Thought" portion. And, it was EXTREMELY helpful. We discussed some situations IRL which I have experienced IRL and talked about how my thoughts affected my feelings about the situation. We talked about reframing my thoughts. Here's some info about it:
http://counsellingresource.com/types/cognitive-therapy/
http://www.nacbt.org/whatiscbt.htm



Now...((taking a deep breath)) here's something I'm fairly certain you guys will 2x4 me on:

I had some time to kill before the therapy appointment... so I decided to go to the local Bookstore / Coffee Shoppe WITHOUT MY WEDDING RING ON. Yes...I deliberately took it off & placed it in my purse before getting out of the vehicle and I recall hoping that the that the tan line from my ring was not too obvious. My plan was to get a book and a snack, sit & read while looking cute, and see if men would approach me.

I went into the Shoppe...4 men "noticed" me right away, 3 of them looked and looked, but one had the guts to strike up a conversation with me. The man was attractive with bright blue eyes. We talked for about 45 minutes, he made sure I knew he was divorced two times in the conversation (i did not react to the info), and then I left feeling rather full of myself. What I did not feel was guilt.

I have NEVER done anything like this in the 12 years i have known my Husband. NEVER.

In the last 15 minutes of the session I spoke with my therapist about what happened in the the Shoppe as well as what has happened within the last few weeks with our marriage & I briefly described the MB program which I told her seemed to improve things dramatically. (BTW She likes the idea on the MB program because it's behavior based.)

She asked me how I felt just before I did that. I told her I didn't stop to "feel" anything - I just knew I wanted to do it and so I did. She said it looks like I am trying to sabotage my own efforts to save my marriage now that I can see improvements. She said she has seen this before (gave some very compelling examples) & next time I should stop and try to think about what my motives are before taking an action like that one. Stop to acknowledge my feelings (Resentment & possible Fear of Intimacy) without taking any action.

I will try, but for some reason it's very tempting to continue to do this. It seems like harmless fun in a way. An escape maybe...I don't know. From what I know about MB, I have the knowledge that it's inappropriate but I still want to do it. I am actually @ a library right now - didn't feel like going home.

Ok...so I am ready for some brutal 2 x 4ing.((shielding my face))

Why?

That's a VERY good question Markos...I have no answer. My therapist had the same question and i was unable to provide an answer...Perhaps you could tell me.

Well, ok I'll take a stab at it...you are growing increasingly convinced that your husband is in an EA if not a PA. You wanted to assure yourself that you could still get a man even if your husband doesn't want you anymore. In other words, you wanted assurance that "you still got it".

So, now that you have this information what will you do with it?

I agree with the other poster that you need to more agressively to discover whether he is in an affair.

Meh...I don't think so Happy. Don't need to take the ring off for that. Hound dogs are everywhere. Believe me.

Why? better duck!!

Maybe you wanted to feel what it was like....

TO HAVE NO BOUNDARIES!!!!!!!

You know...... you're ready to adopt a wayward mentality of entitlement and abuse!

Cheapen your character!

Eliminate standards, I mean who needs standards, right?

You can be married and act single, Who's gonna know?


Geezeeee, get a grip girl!!!

Put your ring on, pull up your big girl pants and go home!

I'm home now tst...

My H greeted me at the door with a hug and a kiss, just like when we parted ways this morning. I didn't feel guilty at all. I must be in the numbness cycle of my emotional rollercoaster.

Got in some UA w/ my H this evening...we had dinner and talked, then we watched TV a little.

I know what I did was not right and I am sure than I would never take it any farther.

Tried to get on his work phone (Samsung Jack)... it was password protected and I could not guess the password. So, I asked him if I could use it to view my hobby site on the Internet Browser from the cell phone perspective.

He unlocked the phone and handed it right to me without hesitating. The phone seems very complicated; however, I was able to look through all emails received (couldn't find "sent items" and the text & IM are inactive)...The emails date back to December 2009. I found nothing but work related stuff and a few jokes from a male friend which My H forwarded to me on previous occasions. I checked the Contacts and found Ms. Arizona's work email & work phone number...no other women and definitely not "pretty lady." There were no emails from Ms. Arizona either. BTW - the work cell phone shows what is in his email account at work too.

The SIM Card Reader has been shipped and is ariving via Fed Ex. It shouldn't be too much longer until I receive it.

What you did today is a typical first step toward adultery!

The "no guilt" should be a major clue that you need to improve your boundaries and possibly even avoid being out alone!

I really had no intention of going any farther with it and I totally understand what you're saying.

Ok...I was wrong and STUPID. I am not going to do that again.

Ugh...

If you do, I'll fly out there and kick your behind myself...

The time to be most protective of personal boundaries is when we know we are lacking something.

Sort of like trying to diet and leaving a bowl of M&Ms on the table all day when you haven't had breakfast or lunch...Easy to justify "just one" and end up with a bowl of candy gone.

The fact that you felt like doing it again because it felt so good proves that it was wrong...

Mark

Chris i posted this to you on your exposure thread on SAA please read it.

Why NOW?

Perhaps your taker is rising up as a part of you resents stepping up and GIVING your husband sex when he's not meeting your needs the way you like them met.

Your taker was acting independently to kinda balance the playing field. It was easier to appease your taker behind his back than trying to demand your husband do it....just yet. Maybe some passive aggression/conflict avoidance in you or just anger coming out sideways.

You are essentially in Plan A right now...gotta swallow that taker by reinforcing to yourself that this is give and give is SHORT TERM.

Good job acknowledging it here. Can't fix what you won't acknowledge. But, obviously...stop it. Saying "it wasn't going to lead to anything else" is the mantra of nearly every wayward that ever landed here on MB. Rarely do people intend to have an affair.

Mr. W

Yes, Mr W.

Although he has responded very positively to the MB actions I am taking, I may feel that he isn't doing certain things exactly in the way I would like - yes. But in terms of "Rate of Return" - I have received a HUGE "Return" on my Giving....if I look at it objectively.

My problem is anger over his threat to get a divorce, and his behavior immediately after making that threat. I am also upset about the text message I found.


That seems reasonable and more "safe" in some ways.


Has anyone in Plan A actually moved towards an affair? I mean - is that really possible? Someone in Plan A has learned about and invested in MB and is therefore less likely to have an affair because of that awareness.

What I am trying to say is, there's a difference between falling / tripping into an affair and being in a Plan A + just venting frustrations by deliberately flirting with the purposeful intention to take it no further.

Not trying to justify - just saying / asking...

I think someone in Plan A is at increased risk of falling into an affair. They are Giving without Taking. They are sacrificing in the short run for a potential long run benefit. This drains their own love bank and puts them at risk of falling for someone who meets their ENs without LBing. That is part of why Dr. Harley advises not to do an indefinite Plan A, and to move into Plan B before the love bank is entirely drained.

Yup...and one of the primary reasons chatting is disabled on this board/website.

Besides...the most annoying thing about "accidents" is just how unpredictable they are.

Mr. W

Thanks SC, but that thread was to get links to info about EXPOSURE, not to discuss my personal situation. Can you please make comments about my personal situation in the thread I started for that? Thanks.

OK...I see.

Sigh...this is a toughie.

So, if in my "harmless" flirt sessions I meet *someone* who I could imagine myself with...and we start spending time together and fall into that initial feeling of romantic love where zero LBing will be done by him, I could mentally compare that (him) to my marriage (and my H) and decide Mr. New is the better (and easier) choice.

Yes, it's the "best" time in the world for the worst thing you can possibly do.

You are hurting because your emotional needs are not being met and your actions are not being reciprocated.

Nearly every adultery I've ever heard about has started under exactly these circumstances: hurt spouse shares feelings with friendly member of the opposite sex. The hurt spouse is the one whose Giver is giving but whose Taker is not satisfied. That's the spouse in Plan A.

Don't you know how adulteries start???

Your harmless flirt session is the moral equivalent of your husband calling someone else "pretty lady."

What he did is just as harmless as what you did.

That's why I put the word harmless in quotation marks. I realize it wasn't harmless.

Yes it is possible.....ANYONE can have an affair at ANY TIME...IF they don't put in the proper boundaries.....



I don't agree with this.....Nearly EVERY adultery I have heard had started while BOTH spoused were in WITHDRAWL. Meaning, NEITHER was doing a proper job of meeting the others EN'S. BOTH spouses were in "dangerous" territory. But fortunately, some BS's had great boundaries all along and some BS's don't get an oppertunity.

While you may hear of WS saying how they were giving and giving and giving, MOST of the time it usually a re-write of marital history. Something a WS does in order to JUSTIFY and blame-shift their affair.....


Unfortunately, I do.....

not2fun

Any affair needs poor boundaries to start. I was (and still am much of the time) VERY unhappy with the state of my marriage. But I'm not the one who had an A.

Poor boundaries. IMO, Chris had poor boundaries when she took her wedding ring off "just to see what would happen".

If everyone had rock solid boundaries, affairs wouldn't happen, regardless of whether or not their marriage was solid.

Too true OH

Everyone, I have angered the folks over in SAA.

They feel I was hiding the bookstore incident from them. I made an incorrect assumption that the people here visit different forums. They say that SAA folks really don't look at the other forums. I find that confusing because Plan A activities have a lot to do with MB 101 whereas SAA seems to talk mostly about busting up affairs. IMO, the SAA people would need to come here for help with their Plan A. Plan A is MB101 - eliminate LBs and meet ENs.

One person suggested that I still have too many threads about my situation. But at this point all I have this one and the one over @ SAA re/ the text message exchange.

Should I just close that thread down? If I do that I feel that I will not be advised here about snooping and my H's possible EA/PA. Should I close this thread down? If I do that, I don't feel that the SAA folks will help me with MB principles.

Over @ SAA, Mel has advised me to snoop.

The folks over there are saying that the bookstore incident means I have the mindset of a wayward spouse and that would change the advise I would get in SAA, but I don't see it. I see the bookstore incident as my Taker getting the best of me due to my Giving juxtaposed against my discovery of that "pretty lady" text message exchange. I have no desire to repeat the behvior or find some man to have an affair with.

I WANT MY MARRIAGE!

Please help!

Chris,

I think the book store incident was a skirt on the "wild side." I think you were testing your own desirability and sense of self-worth.

Still, I think it was a dangerous exercise and the replies you have received from MB members should serve as a "wake up call" -- there are such things as revenge affairs, and they are every bit as destructive as the affairs that sparked them.

Keep in mind that many affairs start out relatively innocently (please read this article if you haven't already). "Testing the waters," which is what the bookstore incident sounds like, is a poor decision, even if the intent was only to satisfy your own curiosity.

OK Fred, where do I go from here?
Please help me!

(My questions above)

I'm not sure I'm the best one to give advice, Chris. You've already been given advice by some of the best.

But since you asked...

Take a deep breath.

As I recall (I'm sorry, but this is the problem with so many threads -- it's tough to track them all), you came here because you wanted advice on building a stronger marriage with your military husband. You had suffered some health issues and he was somewhat abusive, distant and you were unhappy with the state of your marriage. Am I right so far?

Now comes evidence that he has engaged in some inappropriate behavior, and this has made the hairs on the back of your neck stick up. Am I still on track?

Your reaction to this suggestion of something more sinister than just a "faded" marriage has resulted in you having a natural resistant reaction to being advised to snoop, and an incident of questionable behavior on your own part. Still correct?

Here is my layman's diagnosis: You have now entered the "fog zone" of the (possibly) betrayed spouse. Some people have said FOG is an acronym for Fear, Obligation and Guilt. All I know from my own experience is that when the FOG rolls in, we are not even aware that some of our logic and common sense flies out the window.

So here is my advice: Let the veterans here guide you. I speak from experience. When I arrived here, I *knew* my wife was having an affair -- she had admitted it to me! And still I was so flustered and flummoxed that had I not been told to "take a breath, read the MB concepts and listen to the veterans," I have no idea what I may have done.

Every step of the way the angels here sat on my shoulder. If you read my story, you will see that I was posting here every few minutes as the alien who had once been my wife was packing up and leaving. I did not know this woman, and fear, uncertainty, doubt, amazement, disappointment and wonder were ruling my head. The people here were my "silent support group," and "held my hand" during the entire time. I am grateful that the saner, wiser and compassionate people were here for me then, as I am now.

So let them help. MelodyLane is one of the best, and she has been quite active on your story, which is a good thing. Let her help! There are quite a few others, and my suggestion is that before you argue with them, think twice about what they are suggesting and why. (I don't have better word for "argue" right now, although that's not quite what I meant. But I sense a lot of resistance from you -- which I too, felt at first -- and that is your worst enemy right now!).

Thanks Fred.

I have never seen the word "boundaries" used in this way before coming to this site, but I agree with this.

I knew how affairs start years before I met Prisca. I thought everyone knew this. I thought everyone knew that a good married man would not talk to a woman alone in a way that - in Marriage Builders lingo - meets emotional needs.

It seems to me that all you have to do to know this is watch two or three random movies. In that time, you will have seen at least one affair, probably more than one. And while movies are not realistic, they tend to depict the beginnings of affairs somewhat realistically, since affairs are built on fantasy anyway. You see the married man and the other woman at the office, he tells her about his problems, and bingo! Adultery!

Why doesn't everyone know this? I'm still mystified.

Some people say "I'd never have an affair" and fall prey to them. I always said "I'd never commit adultery" and what I meant was "I wouldn't talk about anything personal with a woman not my wife, I wouldn't give or receive even casual affection to a woman not my wife, I wouldn't participate in recreational activities with a woman not my wife without my wife present, and I wouldn't even look at a woman not my wife in a sexual manner."

Doesn't everyone know this?

What's wrong with the world appears to be the fact that people think you have to come here to learn this. We need to change the definition of "normal."

Ditto.

"Normal" is a setting on a washing machine.

I agree.


I think all members/posters are different. There are some, like me, who bounce around a lot. There are others who tend to stick to one forum. Just because you have an onset of waywardism posted to page N of a 30-page thread in MB101 doesn't mean somebody who primarily lives in SAA is going to find it.


I agree.


blah blah blah justify justify

From the SAA thread:

Bit,

how does posting about the incident on the MB forum but not on the SAA room equate to "hiding?"

It was obviously a newbie mistake on my part to think that people visit multiple rooms on the MB forum...Oh wait - [b]you're[b] here...so maybe it wasn't such a silly assumption after all.

I feel that at this point you're jumping onto the dogpile.

Additional 2X4ing is not required. I need some solid advice now.

Thanks.

Today is a different day. Anyone can learn if they are willing to.

Is there a reason you're not referring to me saying TODAY that I will come clean to my H about it?

The title of this thread is "Any and All Comments Welcome"

That's what I saw too. Maybe it should be retitled to "Chris-good-Mr-Chris-bad Comments Welcome?"

((slapping forehead))

LOL

Ok...

I like you bit. Really.

Do you have any instructions for me?

My dearest OH,


Would you stop please?

I messed up and I am trying to fix it now.

All right, let me tell you a story about boundaries and why they're so important. I think this is the longest post I've put on MB so bear with me.

I was raised in a German immigrant family. My dad was an army officer. I had a very duty-honor-country upbringing. I also went to an all-male high school - again, more of the 'I will not lie cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do' type honor code. That was me.

My parents had been building me up for years on the value of an education. Through them, I believed that a four-year engineering degree would pretty much gaurantee me a job. They also cautioned me several times about women throwing themselves at college-educated career men. Being (at the time) a normal healthy 20-year old, my only thought was 'bring it on!'.

So I graduated in '91, right into the recession. I had no relevant work experience because I'd been taking heavy course loads. I wasn't getting the time of day on the job front; everything at that time required 2 years of experience, no entry level positions. It took me 9 months to find a job. I felt ripped off. Things with women were no better; I was getting nowhere in spite of being in good shape and reasonably good looking. Again I felt ripped off (read: entitled).

Late in '92 I made some friends and finally got a social life going (after graduation I had moved to Dallas). There was a couple I hung out with. I was strongly attracted to the wife (in retrospect she was average looking) but didn't act on it: this was my friend's wife, after all.

A few weeks go by and she starts calling me at work or at home, just to chat. I don't think anything of it. We're friends, after all, and it's not like I'm trying to have an affair with her or anything.

Then one night she tells me she thinks of me when she masturbates and tries to get me to have phone sex with her. I freaked out, ended the conversation, and strugged for a couple days with what to do. I eventually told her husband everything.

He thanked me for being such a good friend, and then told me "If you sleep with my wife, it's okay, but just tell me so I don't feel like a fool". I was completely blown away by this. This couldn't - wouldn't - happen! Sleeping with a friend's wife was so far from who I was that my brain couldn't wrap around it. I gave him every assurance that it could never happen, and I believed every word I said.

Things resumed as before. She kept calling me but never mentioned sex. I think my outing her to her husband made me more attractive in her eyes. More unattainable...harder to get...I don't know. Then her husband had to go away for a weekend, and asked me to keep an eye on her and the kids. No problem.

So I go over, having no ulterior motives. I'm an honorable guy and this is my friend's wife. We listen to some music and watch a movie. She sits close to me on the couch. No big deal.

She starts cuddling up to me on the couch. I hadn't been with a woman in over a year and am enjoying the closeness, and it's not like I'm sleeping with her or anything.

We start making out. It's not like I'm sleeping with her. We can stop any time I want. I can leave any time I want. It's under control.

You can see where this went. The PA lasted for four months, plus a 'goodbye' encounter three months later. The EA went on for another six months. I thought I was special somehow; as it turned out I was OM3. I actually moved 600 miles away because I couldn't stand being in the same city as her - and this was the DFW area, mind you, and all my family was there. It took me a year after that to get my head screwed on straight, including a visit from the karma minivan.

My whole point is that if I'd had good boundaries - and enforced them - this never would have happened. I'm sure there would have been an OM3, but it wouldn't have been me, which is all I can really control. A good boundary would have been to not allow myself to be alone with a married woman at any time for any reason. A better boundary might have been to not have personal conversations with married women. I keep both these boundaries in place today - partially to avoid creating an environment for an EA/PA to take root, and partially to avoid any perception of impropriety. Some around here use the term 'extraordinary precautions'.

How does this relate to you? Well, you're not getting your emotional needs met by your husband, and are vulnerable to getting them met by someone else - whether you intend to or not. The solution is to not put yourself in that position in the first place by practicing good boundaries (or extraordinary precautions, if you prefer).

So: what do you think are some good precautions you can take to protect yourself from getting your EN's met by someone who is not your husband?

Chris,

You've been on this forum for just over 30 days now. You've learned alot in that short amount of time.

Would you be willing to write down what YOUR plan is for the next 30 days.

Include things like;
Do you plan to save your M even if there is infidelity
Will you seperate and what will that look like to you
Will I go into a Plan B if necessary
What all you're going to do regarding snooping and how
What you're going to do regarding meeting H's EN's
How you plan to handle YOUR LB's and H's LB's
What you're going to do regarding counseling/coaching
Etc.

MB isn't meant to be like putting a carrot on a stick out in front of a Donkey in order to steer the cart where we want it to go..... If you just chase carrots like the Donkey, you'll be doing no more than allowing your stomach(emotions) to control your thinking. Having a plan written out places you back in the drivers seat instead of being the one chasing the carrots.

We are here to help you think about what you're learning and give you suggestions that will help you get where you want to go.

Bit,

Wow...thanks for sharing that.


Thinking about your question, my H was meeting these ENs before he threatened to divorce me and he continued meeting them immediately after he threatened a divorce and prior to my implementation of MB:
+Financial Support
+Domestic Support
+Family Commitment

After my implementation fo MB my H began to meet three more of my ENs, so now this is the list:
+Conversation (this one is not being met "fully" though)
+Affection
+Sexual Fulfillment
+Financial Support
+Domestic Support
+Family Commitment

The ENs I do not feel are being met are:
+Recreational Companionship (since I am still recovering physically, this is understandable. Also he has service related back pain and has gained a lot of weight)
+Honesty and Openness
+Physical Attractiveness (He has gained a lot of weight.)
+Admiration

I am in the Plan A phase where we give without the expectation of "getting"...With my physical appearance (even with crutches and a cast), I get admiration from men who are not my H regularly.

So...What can I do to make sure a person of the opposite sex who is not my H meets these?

I could avoid seeking out and being alone with any persons of the opposite sex and try to ignore the "Admiration" from outside parties.

What do you think?

Thanks so much tst!

I will think about my direction and use your questions as a start.

It's not really how many of your ENs he is meeting (though I'm sure it's nice if our spouses met ALL of our ENs equally and fully).

You listed your ENs, but what's the order of them? Have you filled out the ENQ? If not, go print it out and fill it out. It's a great exercise for you...even if he doesn't fill it out (yet).

Then tell us if he's meeting your top ENs and how many of your intimate ENs he is meeting.

OH is right. Take the ENQ if you haven't already, and focus on the top 5. For my wife and I, there's the top 5 and then there's everything else.



Do you see how sitting in a coffee shop waiting for guys to hit on you and strike up a conversation is meeting two of your emotional needs? Can you see where this gets dangerous and what a slippery slope it can be?

- "I'm just talking to these guys at the coffee shop. It's not like I'm going home with them. H doesn't talk to me anyway."
- "This one guy gave me his phone number today. Nice to know that *someone* still thinks I'm hot. I'll never call him though."
- "H is being a jerk again. I called the coffee shop guy just to have someone to talk to."
- "Coffee shop guy invited me to lunch! I think I'll go, it's so refreshing to talk to someone who thinks I'm interesting."

You may think this is drawing a line from a single point, or making a mountain out of a mole hill, but if you read around here long enough you'll see the pattern emerge.

For starters I'd keep the wedding ring on. You're not available so don't act like you're on the market.

Look for the recreational companionship questionnaire elsewhere on this site. Fill it out for yourself, and if H won't fill it out then fill it out with what you think his answers might be. There is a ton of stuff you can do that doesn't require mobility; having a list to look at helps. My wife and I both have RC in our top 5 and have made a big effort to get out and do something together - no kids - for 4-6 hours every weekend. You'd be surprised how fast those LB deposits add up!

Bit,

I can totally see your point.

The wedding ring stays on. at all times. from this point forward. I am very much unavailable.

I am going to get started on the Questionnaires asap.

Thanks!

I have a question...

My H is in the habit of doing something which I feel is not right:

When he's angry with me (as he is now because he discovered I snooped into his cell phone and then I lied about how I found the inappropriate text message exchange between him & "pretty lady"...I actually think it's FOG / or feigned outrage to take the focus off his the text messages...But I don't wanna DJ ) Anyway...when he's angry, he will greet my son enthusiastically & then say a half hearted hello to me and speak to me curtly while speaking to my son kindly - often in the same sentence / conversation. Now, mind you, for the past few days with all the SF he has been waiting for me @ the door with a hug & kiss combo and has been ultra friendly and then today he does THAT.

He said he thinks my son doesn't see. I believe he is showing my son how to treat his future wife! I mentioned that to him & said "Kid's aren't blind, Mr Chris." I reminded him that he said he didn't want the same old marriage. I said I didn't want the same old marriage either and that this behavior is part of that same old marriage. I asked him to consider trying something new. "Will you consider trying something new?"

I believe I made a thoughtful request. Can you tell me if I can polish that up a bit or did I do OK?

Well, that sounds like a reasonable thoughtful request to me. I think you handled it well in expressing your dislike of his action.

I'm curious to see if others share my view, or if they will find a critique that I am missing.

Yes...I am eaqer to see what the other vets say

Just now, I took this a step further: I printed out a copy of the EN & the LB Questionnaires and I asked him to return to me tomorrow. I said I was giving these to him in an effort to have a "different marriage" as he put it so well before. I told him these will help me do my part of that...if we do the same things, we will get the same results, and then we'll end up right back in the same spot. He agreed to return them to me tomorrow.

I pointed something else out: I asked him if he noticed that whenever he wanted or needed to talk about something - for example, his work situation or his hopes for a new position - I am always very receptive to that? He said yes. I said - I feel that you are not receptive to me when I need to talk.

He immediately launched into a blame-a-thon. He said that I approach him at the wrong times...when he's watching TV, ect. He NEVER interrupts me when I am on the computer or watching TV. I said I wish he would interrupt me because I'd like us to talk more. I asked him when a good time to approach him to talk would be. He started to mimic / mock me and use hostile body language and then he asked me to leave. I stated I would not leave, do not mock me it's disrespectful. I need to know when we can talk. I told him that for us to have a different marrriage, we need to talk with each other and it can't be one sided. We should schedule time to talk - half an hour every day. He was nasty but he asked what time. I thought about it and said 8 p.m. He asked where (and not in a nice way). I said the formal living room.

I also touched on the subject of why he's acting so hostile. I suggested that perhaps he was still angry about me looking @ his cell phone messages or lying to him. He said he was just tired. I said "Being tired is not an excuse for being mean to your wife. If I approach you to talk and you're tired, please tell me you're tired and you'd rather not talk right now."

So...This is my post convo ramble:

I seem to be in the part of my Plan where I am testing out trying to get him on board with MB and I am trying out a few thoughtful requests as well. The danger is: It's been a good 4 weeks for me and MB...I think he is in Conflict, but I think I may be close to going into Withdrawl myself. He recently let me know that he doesn't want a divorce...He said "I'm not going anywhere."... so I believe the time to do this is now...using his statement about wanting a different marriage seems to make sense to me.

At first it took a huge amount of self restraint not to say "Screw you buster! I deserve better than this. I am beautiful and smart and I'll move on!" Gosh - he was being so mean, nasty, and disrespectful to me in that last conversation. He treated me like I was an annoying bug...But I thought back to what Markos said about trying to see the world through my spouse's eyes. He is not happy with himself or the lack of respect he gets at his job. He mentioned this morning that he needs to buy new jeans because all but one pair of his jeans are too small now. (And that one pair is getting small as well. He is not happy with how he looks. Yesterday I met up with him @ work and when I left this older woman who has been helping him & who he really likes & respects was saying how beautiful I am. (I got the feeling that other people may have said it too & he did not report that to me in a happy way.


Can me being attractive be a love buster?!


We now have new "friends" we met through our child's extracurricular activities & both couples have HUGE houses, one of them has an ELEVATOR in their new home lol!. Both husbands are successful...one is a lawyer with the McMansion / elevator and the other is at the top of the food chain where he works (can't say where) They have a lot of land with their home & my H likes to drive around their neighborhood and look at the beautiful houses there. We did that this evening before we visited them...

But you know what? We have a lovely house too; however, there is no elevator and it's not absurdly HUGE...Plus good news: Our home loan is in the green now...Could we have what the other 2 couples have? Heck yes - but my H had debts when we hooked up and we had to take care of that, so we started off behind these folks - who by the way are 10 years older than us. I believe that the debt thing plagues him to this day.

I wish he would be happy with what we have accomplished in our lives - which is nothing to sneeze at. We both have advanced degrees now & we both have good jobs, a wonderful child, generally good health...a good life. There will always be someone who has a bigger house or more money that you, you can't let things like that bug you. I am grateful for what we have and I love pulling into the driveway of the home he has made for us, and I started letting him know that more since I started MB.

The thing with or new friends is - I don't want to be either one of those wives. When we are together, I can see no love...I don't see hate, but I am not seeing love and affection. They are clearly roommates and caretakers of the kids and that is all. I want a loving marriage and I am not willing to put up some phoney front and buy more and more things + a bigger and bigger home which is full of "stuff" but no love!

He seems to be in this mental spot where he's decided to stay married to me but he will be distant or even mean in private & in front of our son...When we're out, he'll play the dutiful hubby role to a tee. And, oddly, he is always watching me when he thinks I am not looking. I feel that he is doing the good husband and father thing publicly - especially in front of our new and more affluent "friends", but he's not really going to talk to me too much or conect with me in private...He'll do "things" for me like paint the house, buy me things, and take care of the yard...but he'll neglect me. NO WAY. I want love.

Now that I know it's possible, I want LOVE and I know I deserve it! The thing which just occurred to me too is this: Either he can work with me and give me LOVE or I will eventually end it with him. I am working on myself and LOVE will come to me with someone else - especially since I am learning how to be a better person and I am learning from MB how to be a good wife.

Chris, I don't know how anyone can afford a house in NOVA. I have lots of family there.

I think that my attractiveness (especially the way I dress) is a LB for my husband. I think I posted this on my thread. A lot has gone on lately, I've been writing too much and can't keep track.

Basically the same thing as you. My husband is insecure about how he looks and dreses, and my "put togetherness" even in jeans and Ts seems to add to it. Well, he could go out and buy himself some new clothes. He could shave every day. He could cut down on his food intake and do a bit of exercise. Those are all choices my husband could make, but he doesn't. So I don't have a whole lot of sympathy.

My husband also does the mocking thing. It is really irritating. I look forward to a time when I can share openly and honestly with my husband about these kinds of LB.

Chris, you don't sound like withdrawal to me, lots of Conflict, LOL. When you get to withdrawal, you won't want him to talk to you, I think it's be like, "I don't like when he talks to me, anyway." What do you think? Especially the part where you say, "I wish he would be happy with what we have accomplished in our lives - which is nothing to sneeze at." MB is about making thoughtful requests about behaviors, not being annoyed that they don't *think* they way you want them to. There's plenty of room in a MB in-love marriage, for folks to think lots of things, while they are taking the actions that bring them more and more in love with each other. But I know for me when I'm in withdrawal, I'm not wishing he'd think differently, it's more like at that time I could care less what he thinks. What do you think?

It's okay, you're doing the right things, like the thoughtful requests, sharing your O&H. It'll get easier. I try to keep up, but I didn't catch where you told him about the text messages, I thought you're supposed to keep quiet while you look, but I know you have an SAA thread, too, so I trust you are getting the advice you need already.

Yes Ma'am - I had a mental breakdown of sorts and outted myself to him re/ the text messages. I also did something dumb in a bookstore.

The SAA folks performed a radical lobotmy on me - no anesthesia. And, they hooked me up with snooping.

I know I am not IN Withdrawl, but I'm afraid I am headed that way because I no longer fear the possibility that we may get divorced.

Income lol!


I'm with you on this. He could eat better & exercise, plus get more sleep - but he will not.

I am not a size 3 and i am not drop dead stunning, but I get attention from a wide variety of males...just not the one who matters to me


I think it's disrespectful. I shared that thought with him and asked him to stop. Did you do that?

No. I'm not really ready to go whole hog sharing LB. He knows what the main ones are (even though he doesn't use the word LB). I have protective measures for myself from the verbal stuff.

His main need appears to be Appreciation, and those who have that EN are also very sensitive of criticism of any type. And I am not able to give criticism in a very compassionate way much of the time.

At some point I will probably try to have a conversation with him about the value of complaining in a marriage, but I need to wait until the time is right.

Have you looked in on how my sexual stuff is progressing? I'd love to hear your thoughts now that I've shared more of the details.

I have been reading for sure..I just don't know how to advise you. I am ashamed to say I am not very knowledgeable about sexual probs.