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This is BrokenVase, Cantgetitright's wife.

If you have been reading his thread, he has been working on a timeline to rectify both lies of commission and omission that he has told over our 30 years together.

Today I found out:

...that an EA he had in 1989 (two years after we were married) was actually a PA (initiated by CGIR) and lasted for one year. Until today, I had believed it was an EA of a few months' duration that ended when the OW kissed him.

...that at his brother's bachelor party ~1995, CGIR had a ONS with a prostitute. (I had NO CLUE about this and never would have expected it. I am still numb and in shock - I'm not even able to react at this point).

...and that his 2006 PA was far more extensive than I was originally told. (With this affair, though, I never believed the original story, and still harbor doubt that I have the whole truth).

CGIR's timeline is not complete and there still may be more "truth" to be told.

The reason I finally got the truth about the incidents above is that I told CGIR that I wanted him to take a polygraph test. He did admit that the only reason he is telling me the truth now is because he knew he would fail the polygraph.

We are the poster children of false recovery.

I don't know if I will be able to overcome 30 years of anger and resentment; hurt and betrayal.

Maybe CGIR would be better off with a someone else - if he's serious about changing, he could take what he's learned here and apply it with someone new. Why would he want to remain with an angry, resentful wife forever infected by doubt - a wife that, over 30 years, he never felt he could talk to?

Maybe I could be content with being alone.

I don't really know why I'm posting - I have no questions and don't see MB principles helping our relationship at this point. It doesn't matter how O&H CGIR tries/succeeds in being; it will never be enough for me, because I will never KNOW whether or not he is being O&H.

Thanks for listening.


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Hi BV
Such a sad story....

Its a suspicion every BS has that there may have been other infidelities, but to find out that most of your history together has been based on his lies must be devastating.

In truth BV I think you need to give yourself some time to process the new facts. There is no benefit in rushing into any response.

The times you had together, even when you were investing with goodwill having been lied to were genuinely as you perceived them at the time. Do not let this revelation steal your good memories from you.

You have every right and justification to divorce of course, but it seems you also have a newly contrite WH which may just give you an opportunity to build a CLEAN new marriage washed of his lies' pollution.

O&H can be very transparent and that can really help rebuild trust but your WH will need to be very humble in this.

All blessings as you make your decision.



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bv, I strongly support BobPure's advice to take your H's contrition as a good sign, and to wait before making a major decision either way.

I would, though, urge you to proceed with the polygraph. I would do so even if more revelations come out before you get to the examiner's office. I think the only way you know the truth is if your H goes through with the test. It seems that many WSs believe that they are sparing their spouse the awful truth, and that once they let them know that yes, it was bad, they have been honest enough. They think that there is no point in hurting the BS with details.

You might not want to know the whole ugly truth, but if you do, he must take the test. Do you know who the women are? I don't have time to re-read your H's thread right now, but is there any possibility of contact, such as through work?

You won't know that your H is protecting the marriage with NC until you know the identities of all the women.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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BV, thanks for making this post. I wondered who his wife was. Frankly, I give this very little hope at all unless your H stops traveling. That situation is only an invitation to a repeat affair and this has already proven true. This would be a tempatation in a good marriage and it is a certainty in your crippled marriage. It is not a matter of "IF" but of when.

When you are recovering from getting hit by a car, the first step has to be to stop playing chicken. By having a traveling job, he is still playing chicken with your marriage.

So, unless your lives are changed to where you spend every night together, I give this zero hope. In order to recover from adultery, the environment that made it possible has to change. That has not happened here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Dear MelodyLane:

Some background information on us, if you have the patience for it:

In defense of CGIR, he has been unemployed for two years. When he says there are no jobs where we live, THERE ARE NO JOBS. We have historically high unemployment here, above the national average. The traveling situation he is currently involved in has been the ONLY employment he was offered in the past two years. (And for those who say he should just get "any job" - well, there aren't any of those here, either. He tried, for example, entry level jobs in every store you could think of - no employer wants to hire a former VP for an entry-level retail job). Also, no employers here will look at someone trying to change industries - they have their choice of many other job-seekers with the exact qualifications they're looking for.

With that said, I have definitively become a RENTER in our relationship. If I cannot remain married to CGIR, I want to ensure my financial security. My mother currently lives with CGIR and me because she is divorced from my father and has no other options for a safe and secure place to live. My MIL is still married to my FIL, but it seems to me (and I could be wrong) that they are living parallel lives and this is perhaps not her choice. She has limited options, as she has a chronic illness and is disabled. I will not be in either of these circumstances myself. At this point, since I am undecided about our relationship, I am NOT willing to:

1) support CGIR while he is jobless by choice (i.e., quitting his traveling job) and ineligible for unemployment.

2) quit my job and follow CGIR. I work in specialized field, have some job security with the chance for more and provide our health benefits. More importantly, however, I get all of my self-esteem from my job. While he tries, CGIR lowers my self-esteem. I am not willing to give up the only source of self-esteem I have.

3) downsize in order for CGIR to either train for another job or wait for another job. If we divorce, CGIR feels I will be able to keep our house on my salary alone. I am not willing to downsize, take a chance on CGIR, divorce and have nothing.

If CGIR wants to have an affair, he will have an affair regardless of where he lives (he had two affairs while living with me, and one affair while traveling). If CGIR want to look at pornography outside of an agreement with me, he will do so regardless of where he lives. This has already happened - he looked at far more porn while we were living together than while traveling. He looked at the OW's social networking information while home with me and while traveling.

I am DONE with do-it-yourself surveillance, checking, verifying, etc. It WASTES MY TIME and causes a great deal of anger and resentment. I could have completed my PhD with the time I used "checking" and fact-finding. If I have doubts (and I do) I'm going straight for professional assistance - PIs and polygraphers - and will act decisively on the information I obtain.

CGIR needs to establish boundaries and talk to me. If he can't, he can't, and he will be making a choice to be without me. I have told him if he genuinely wants to do "what he wants, when he wants," HE CAN HAVE THAT LIFE. I don't want him staying with me and being miserable. I will understand will walk away sadly but without argument. If he wants to stay with me, HE needs to convince ME to stop renting and buy. I will give him a chance but am not putting down any earnest money just yet.

Thanks for your feedback and patience; hopefully this background information helps put our situation in perspective.


Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Originally Posted by brokenvase
CGIR needs to establish boundaries and talk to me. If he can't, he can't, and he will be making a choice to be without me.

Here is the thing you are missing, BV, spending the night apart should be a boundary. Saying that he should have "boundaries" while he travels and spends the night apart from you is like expecting him to be a "good" drunk driver with "boundaries." That is unrealistic because spending the night apart is risky behavior.

The fact is that spending the night apart is an invitation to an affair and it is much more than that in a relationship that has been poisoned by serial cheating. In order to recover from that, super duper extraordinary precautions must be taken.

My marriage is a close one that has been recovered for years and I know what happens to my marriage when my H travels away overnight for even 3 nights a week. It was very very hard on our GOOD marriage. It created an immediate feeling of detachment in my marriage.

Secondly, in order for this program to work, it requires at least 15 hours per week of undivided attention to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20+ hours to CREATE it. That cannot be done if you do not live together during the week. Dr Harley says his program does not work without this step.

But, it is your marriage and your life. If you choose to place financial security BEFORE marriage, it is you that has to pay that price, not me. I wish you the best.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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It sounds to me like BrokenVase wants out but has some barrier preventing her from being the one to walk away.

BV, remember, you are morally in the clear to walk away from this right now. The choice (and the power) is yours.


Formerly ConfuzedHusband
BH
WW (Now XW)
Married 4 years, No children.
EA/PA from 2/2008 to 5/2008.
DDay: 5/17/2008 - Separated 6/1/2008 - Filed 8/3/2008
Divorce final 3/2009.

Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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I am DONE with do-it-yourself surveillance, checking, verifying, etc. It WASTES MY TIME and causes a great deal of anger and resentment. I could have completed my PhD with the time I used "checking" and fact-finding. If I have doubts (and I do) I'm going straight for professional assistance - PIs and polygraphers - and will act decisively on the information I obtain.

Okay, you've got 24 hrs in a day to allot to things that are important or necessary to you. What you're saying here is that you don't wish to spend those hours scrutinizing your wayward's actions, and feel they would be better spent on you. I gotcha, there, sister. I understand how you could feel that way after multiple D-Days, and to be honest with you I'd probably just pack it in.

However, you have chosen not to do that. So I'd stop straddling the fence on personal goals. You won't/can't quit your job because it's related to your identity. You won't/can't agree to cover WH's back financially while he's out of work because...well, because darnit, he's healthy and needs to be bringing some cash to the table!

Brokenvase, I've got a list of potential snoops that I employ at my leisure. I don't think it takes longer to employ them on any given day than it does to take a shower and get ready for work. I'm puzzled about the snooping methods you're using. But more realistically I suspect the truth is that you don't WANT to have to employ those methods, and THAT is what is creating the anger and resentment. Would that be accurate?

Last edited by maritalbliss; 09/28/10 05:59 AM.

D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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BV

Dr Harley is clear that the ideal scenario for a successful marriage is one where spouses never spend a night apart, and the time they DO spend together is filled with quality meeting of Emotional Needs, while carefully avoiding lovebusters.

It is had to argue with this. It makes logical sense and has worked wonderfully for Dr H and his wife for decades !

As for me though I understand that some compromises may be required. I am working with a couple at my church right now whose marriage is in trouble largely because the H is involuntarily unemployed and their circumstances are severely reduced. There's not much quality UA time spent, nor much relaxation: the threat of losing your home is not a great motivator to sit in and do romantic stuff together, clearly. His own masculine identity is threatened by their circumstances, so I am unable to progress much MB with them. Also his wife's opinion of HIM is affected by this.

There's an old saying here in Britain : " love goes out the window when debt comes in the door" and sadly I see that borne out in many families I know.

My own job involves too much traveling and I have no doubts this has delayed our recovery somewhat. However I have sought for fully six years to find a job with less travel and have only NOW secured one that does not compromise our financial security so much that it causes lovebusters. I hopefully start on October 6th smile

My advice is do not submit to your circumstances as unchangeable Your WH may need to work away for now, but always keep seeking opportunities to work and live locally as an active project.

all blessings









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Originally Posted by Bob_Pure
My own job involves too much traveling and I have no doubts this has delayed our recovery somewhat. However I have sought for fully six years to find a job with less travel and have only NOW secured one that does not compromise our financial security so much that it causes lovebusters. I hopefully start on October 6th smile

I am curious. How do you think BV's marriage will fare if it takes her H 6 years to find a non-traveling job? smile Keep in mind, he is a serial cheater and has already had 2 affairs with female coworkers so far. [that she knows about]

Originally Posted by Cantgetitright
I eventually had to travel to other locations (foreign and domestic) and my travels were always with women co-workers. I traveled with one person for a few weeks in a row and we seemed to hit it off. We could talk and joke and we got a long well. Once back home, the two of us would talk after work (me on my cell phone as I was driving home) � for the most part until I arrived home. We had to take a second trip a few months later and on that trip, we kissed. Nothing else happened, but based off of the way we were getting along and conversations, I felt that maybe something more could happen.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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p.s. here is his history:

DDay #1 - 1989 EA with co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 problems with concealing porn
DDay #3 - July, 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug., 2006 revealed EA becoming PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 continued problems with porn/lying revealed
DDay# 6 - Sept.26, 2010 - 1989 EA was actually PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. ~1995 ONS with prostitute.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Mel

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I am curious. How do you think BV's marriage will fare if it takes her H 6 years to find a non-traveling job?

Several things conspire against BVs marriage , Mel. I think swapping his travel for their financial security is not a great deal. CGIR had affairs on his travels because he chose to, not because he couldn't help himself. I have traveled most weeks for fifteen years, and not had an affair yet. It is possible to travel without being adulterous wink

If BV wants to recover they should make a plan to balance financial security versus travel IMO. Absolute immediate cessation of travel regardless of financial consequences is not a nett marriagebuilding option for many folks ime.


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You're only 45. You've got no kids. Move on.


BH(Me)=40
WXW=38
ILYBNILWY: 8/09
DDAY: 8/31/09
Two boys: 8,7
Divorced 3/23/2011

Don't let your eyes refuse to see. Don't let your ears refuse to hear. Or you ain't never gonna shake this sense of sadness. --Ray Lamontagne
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Originally Posted by Bob_Pure
If BV wants to recover they should make a plan to balance financial security versus travel IMO. Absolute immediate cessation of travel regardless of financial consequences is not a nett marriagebuilding option for many folks ime.


The solution is to look for a non-traveling job if they want to salvage the marriage. I agree that immediate cessation of the job will cause as much trouble as it purports to prevent, in the short term, which is why I never suggested it. But quitting the job might be preferable to a 5th or 6th affair and that is what this couple is facing.

I have no doubt his traveling jobs led to his affairs. You might not have had affairs traveling, BUT HE HAS. That was the environment in which he had his affairs. He has already proven he cannot handle himself in this environment.

Like Dr Harley has said - and it has proven true in this case - traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair. In order to recover from an affair, the environment that led to the affair has to be changed.

My thoughts are that when you get hit by a car, not once, but several times, that the solution is to get out of the road.

And then we have the issue of creating romantic love. That is unlikely to ever happen if they don't live together during the week because there can be no UA time.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

I tried to use the boxed quotes, but couldn't quite figure them out....

MelodyLane began with:
"But, it is your marriage and your life. If you choose to place financial security BEFORE marriage, it is you that has to pay that price, not me. I wish you the best."

Right now, the greater risk for me is staying in the marriage. I don't know if CGIR can be honest with me; I don't know if I can overcome my resentment for his only pretending to have an intimate relationship with me. I am not posting in this forum to save my marriage, CGIR is. It may be best to consider me "wayward" at this point - borrowing from the script: I love CGIR but am not in love with him; I wonder at this point if maybe just "too much has happened."

Arpeggi wrote:
"It sounds to me like BrokenVase wants out but has some barrier preventing her from being the one to walk away."

Love, I guess. Fear, too. Also, love. And fear. And so on and so on.

Maritalbliss replied:
"Brokenvase, I've got a list of potential snoops that I employ at my leisure. I don't think it takes longer to employ them on any given day than it does to take a shower and get ready for work. I'm puzzled about the snooping methods you're using. But more realistically I suspect the truth is that you don't WANT to have to employ those methods, and THAT is what is creating the anger and resentment. Would that be accurate?"

Before CGIR began to tell me some of the truth, much time was spent poring over past information, trying to piece it together in a way it made sense. It was hypnotic, time-consuming, compelling and always frustrating, as I was trying to put together a puzzle with no picture and pieces that didn't even belong together. And you're absolutely right - I don't want to HAVE to do this in order to prevent being blindsided. The anger and resentment come from, as I said above, being in a relationship that was faked and having CGIR watch me struggle to solve a puzzle that he knew was unsolvable.

Maritalbliss also said:
"What you're saying here is that you don't wish to spend those hours scrutinizing your wayward's actions, and feel they would be better spent on you."

Absolutely. I want a partner who will support me in my career, in establishing a secure financial future, in personal development. I do not want a partner I have to surveil, second-guess and test.

BobPure said:
"However I have sought for fully six years to find a job with less travel and have only NOW secured one that does not compromise our financial security so much that it causes lovebusters."

If CGIR quits his job, becomes ineligible for unemployment and can't find work that allows him to contribute financially in a meaningful way AND leaves me with the choice of working seven days a week to afford our home (where my mother also lives) OR selling our house and displacing my mom, the anger and resentment from bearing the burden for his selfish choices coupled with my anger and resentment over the past will make both of our lives a living hell and any hope of creating some kind of new relationship will destroyed. "Lovebusters" would be a wholly inadequate term to describe what would happen.

BobPure also added:
"My advice is do not submit to your circumstances as unchangeable Your WH may need to work away for now, but always keep seeking opportunities to work and live locally as an active project."

CGIR is actively seeking home-based employment, but there is a recession here; he is in the demographic hardest hit and we live in a state that's taken one of the harder hits. When I say there is no work here, there literally is no work. We have files of hundreds of job contacts that did not even get a response. His only option right now is out-of-state employment or unemployment.

MelodyLane responded:
"I have no doubt his traveling jobs led to his affairs."

CGIR's first affair began and lasted when we lived together in a one-bedroom apartment and spent virtually all of our time together. Same for his ONS. And as I said in a recap of our history, he looked at far, far more pornography when we were together than when we were apart. It is 2010, the communication and information age. If he wants to have an affair, he will have an affair regardless of where he physically is.

And finally, MelodyLane replied:
"And then we have the issue of creating romantic love. That is unlikely to ever happen if they don't live together during the week because there can be no UA time."

CGIR is home every Friday evening through Monday morning. During that time, we spend all of our time together. We go to plays. We go to concerts. We play mini-golf. We go out to eat. We exceed 20 hours of UA. Up until September, I thought we were almost recovered; I was in love; I was thinking about maybe re-marrying CGIR in a couple of years. However, he didn't want a real relationship with me. I think it's important to remember that in our case, we are not trying to return to a good relationship we once had; WE NEVER ACTUALLY HAD A RELATIONSHIP. The relationship I thought I was in was/is a fiction. The person I thought I knew never existed. I have no idea who the real CGIR is - I was only introduced to him last week.

If anyone has the time to stop by CGIR's thread, please do; he's feeling bad. I know what it feels like to be losing your spouse and don't wish that on anyone.

Again, thanks for listening.




Me - WW/BW - 49
Him - CGIR - WH/BH 49
Married 27 years, together 33 (HS sweethearts)
No kids
DDay #1 - 1989 EA co-worker
DDay #2 - 2004 internet porn
DDay #3 - July 2006 EA different co-worker
DDay #4 - Aug. 2006 EA with OW #2 was actually a PA
DDay #5 - Sept. 2010 False recovery - H dishonest about both affairs and porn usage
DDay# 6 - Sept. 26, 2010 - Full disclosure - 1989 EA was actually a PA and lasted one year. 2006 PA more extensive than originally thought. 1992 ONS with prostitute.
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Originally Posted by brokenvase
MelodyLane responded:
"I have no doubt his traveling jobs led to his affairs."

CGIR's first affair began and lasted when we lived together in a one-bedroom apartment and spent virtually all of our time together. Same for his ONS. And as I said in a recap of our history, he looked at far, far more pornography when we were together than when we were apart. It is 2010, the communication and information age. If he wants to have an affair, he will have an affair regardless of where he physically is.

BV, Your H is a serial cheater so it makes no sense to believe that he will be immune to what Dr Harley calls "an invitation to an affair." Obviously the opportunity and the temptation for an affair will be greater if you are not there than when you are. Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and this forum is full of such disasters. This is extraordinary precaution 101. The damage that traveling jobs causes is not even debatable.

Quote
And finally, MelodyLane replied:
"And then we have the issue of creating romantic love. That is unlikely to ever happen if they don't live together during the week because there can be no UA time."

CGIR is home every Friday evening through Monday morning. During that time, we spend all of our time together. We go to plays. We go to concerts. We play mini-golf. We go out to eat. We exceed 20 hours of UA.

I happen to know from experience that living apart during the week contributes to a great feeling of detachment that takes DAYS or weeks to overcome even in a great marriage. If you don't notice it, then you likely are not close to begin with. My H and I went through this once for a couple of months and our marriage was not the same when we were apart for 3 nights a week. It led to a feeling of emotional detachment. Being apart during the week makes it impossible to meet each others needs enough to feel emotionally connected on a consistent basis.

Dr Harley addresses this his article on Undivided Attention:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.
here'

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Right now, the greater risk for me is staying in the marriage. I don't know if CGIR can be honest with me; I don't know if I can overcome my resentment for his only pretending to have an intimate relationship with me. I am not posting in this forum to save my marriage, CGIR is.

I completely sympathize and understand your position when you put it like this. And no one could ever criticize you for taking this stance. Just know, that if you decide to commit to the marriage, i would take a hard look at extraordinary precautions to ensure he doesn't have the opportunity to cheat again.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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BV, I just bumped up a thread about serial cheaters from a few years ago. I had called Dr Harley on the radio and asked him questions about this. His response was that the solution to serial cheating was a more "global approach" meaning that much more extraordinary precautions would be required for recovery.

If you want to ask him about your particular situation, you can email Mrs Harley at jharley@marriagebuilders.com and she will read your email to Dr Harley on the radio and he will address your situation. You can listen to the radio show on your computer at the link at the top of the page.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I have to agree with Bob_Pure here. Especially in the case of BV's WH. He is a serial cheater and will cheat close and far from her. My WH cheated with the downstairs neighbor and with a coworker. I am sure he cheated when we were apart in the summers as I would visit my parents for a month.
Even if we were apart regularly for a month every year for 8 years I never cheated on my WH even if my month was spent in a country where cheating is part of the culture and it is a stereotype of that culture. Even if I was attractive, young and educated etc...
I am still extremely conviced that a cheater is born a cheater. It has it in him or her.
BV's H is a serial callous cheater and BV should move on.
Blessing


atena
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atena, I agree she should move on. HOWEVER, if she decides to salvage her marriage, recovery will be next to impossible if he travels. Traveling jobs are an invitation to an affair and I don't even know why this is being questioned on a forum full of affairs that stem from this. In order to recover, a serial cheater has to take extraordinary, extraordinary precautions to not cheat.

To say he will cheat at home or away is ludicrous. He won't cheat at home if his wife is there with him, will he? He will have less opportunities to cheat if his wife is in the same bed with him at night. But every night he spends alone is another opportunity to cheat.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I agree that every precaution needs to be taken with a SC. However, I can testify that a man can cheat on his wife and then come back home and sleep with her. My WH did that for over a year, he would sneack downstairs to the neighbor and do her and then would come back home and sleep with me all this thru the pretence that he was doing computer related work in the studio-dump-basement he rented from her.
A cheater will find his way...
blessing


atena
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