Hello All

Unfortunately my thread, my posts beginning to end, and all the great support/advice have been lost, however still have hope that they and others� threads/posts will be brought back to life. I so appreciate that older threads, like those in Notable Posts and Mark�s rant for newbies have been recovered.
Now, to start over�. And summarize in chunks� My signature line has basic details.

Without realizing it, WH began EA with OW in April/May 08. He was the LL coach of team that her son (and our DS 9) was on. OW was very helpful in the dugout� I had my own commitments to LL in that I ran the Snack Bar. In 2007, WH and I decided to volunteer and become involved in LL together. We actually made new friends and became close to several couples. I still maintain these friendships, WH will make contact when, IMHO, he feels/sees that they are caring/supportive of me and he doesn�t like it. I honestly believe he wants me to stay home, struggle, not make it on my own, beg him to be my savior, and yet feels like he needs to continue to hurt/punish me.

Dday in June 2008.�. WH comes home late from volunteer function at local Fire House, he was with OW. Now I know why he left the family celebration of our son�s graduation from elementary to middle school. I got the ILYBNILWY speech and that he wanted to move out after our big family vacation in July. Throughout all of this I got the I haven�t loved your for the past 2, 5, 8, 10 yrs, our entire marriage- never the same. I didn�t want to go on vacation and have that be mine and DS�s �goodbye� and the last big HURRAH of our family. WH assured me this could be our second chance, where we were going was �magical�. So we packed up and went to the sunny South for our 2 week long vacation. WH promised that there would be no contact with OW (there was). I asked him to leave cell phone home, but he insisted he should bring it in case we were separated at theme parks. I intercepted a text from OW� it just said �I�m sorry.� I confronted WH who said that he didn�t know why she sent him a text, he hasn�t contacted her, etc� Other than that, this was like a 2nd Honeymoon for us, even with having our 3 children with us. We even talked about future �stuff�, our aging parents, esp. his parents and how we could help them out. We were going to buy some land from them to help alleviate them having to pay taxes, etc�. Then we return home and it all goes downhill, he spends more and more time with her and her children, and said/displayed all the typical wayward garbage. I didn�t discover this site until late Dec 08. I never knew about exposure (didn�t start exposing until Sept) Plans A and B until then.

WH started renting an apt on 11/1/08 (but doesn�t move out until following month- WTH?). I filed for temporary custody 11/6/09 after hearing WH state that he will take boys whenever he wants and wherever, and will have them around OW and her 2 children (D14&S12) and I cannot stop him and he will give me money after he pays his bills. His wage garnished child support is so much more than what he thought. Her S12 is in same grade as our DS12(very hard on him), WH then files for D couple of weeks later- a knee-jerk reaction? His grounds are C&I treatment�. There are reasons from A-Z of my cruelty�.. Esp the emotional distress that was brought on by my exposing his adultery (not his words of course- he stated my telling of our private relationship issues) to family, our friends, even OW was greatly distressed by all of this. I controlled all of our money, he works and makes a great paycheck so why can�t he buy what he wants, when he wants�.. UMM b/c there are those things called living expenses raising a family, bills, maintaining a home, family vacations, etc�. BTW, he had his own credit cards and checkbook�..

To be continued�..

Kateydid

I am contesting WH grounds for divorce, my lawyer is very positive the judge will dismiss. In NYS grounds have to be proven. I've been assured that what WH has down for C&I treatment are complaints typical of a 17 yr marriage. These were all laughed about by my lawyer and his legal secretary, and I've been told that these will be seen as whining/compaining by the judge. My IC told me the same thing, and he is one of the local court's appointed psychologist. We have a hearing/trial on 11/4. However not sure what that would mean other than keeping us all in limbo. I can hope that if this were to occur, OW would tire of this situation and leave WH. It has been requested that I have exclusive use of marital home, as WH continues to come in house without asking taking items, he still has keys. I have been told I can�t change locks until judge says it is OK due to reverse abandonment. Even though he left in December, there isn�t any legal document separating us. WH could say to court that I want to come back, but evil/cruel BW went and changed the locks. I can counter file at anytime with Adultery, Abandonment, C&I treatment. My lawyer says wait and see what happens at trial. My lawyer is also aware of my desire to recover/reconcile my marriage. He is also an assistant DA and good at what he does; he came highly recommended. So, I have placed my trust in him.

OW history- She is a true-to-form typical Tramp-o-lean. I�ve been told this is what she does�.. Finds men to pay her bills. She is divorced from father of her children; their marriage lasted 4 yrs. She has been engaged 3 times to another man- she has called it off all three times. She cheated on him several times. She has had affairs with other married men as well. I am told that she will do this to WH as well. IDK� they seem to be so in love with each other�. You know they are soul mates.

OW�s recent tangled web�.. She had a boyfriend and his DS11 living with her (and her 2 kids, parents, and brother) from Fall 2007-April/May 08. She went on several trips with former fianc� during Spring/Summer 2008. She started another relationship that lasted from April 08-Oct 08. She still maintains �friend�ship with this �former� boyfriend (we�ll call him BF2)- he still has contact with her kids as she needs him to. BF2 is still in love with OW. There is a lot of cake-eating going on. HHMMMM�. WH was juggled last year�. But even with this pointed out to him he doesn�t care�.. They are soul mates. And, the kicker is�. WH and BF2 were friends growing up and continue to be.

To be continued�� Child Custody/Visitation up next�..

Kateydid

Child Visitation/Custody�

Currently WH and I have joint custody, and I have physical custody. Current visitation order states that WH has boys two afternoons/early evenings after school and every other weekend and while WH is exercising visitation there is to be on contact with OW and/or her children. This gets violated often, though WH doesn�t think that he is in violation.

Unfortunately, we all live in the same small town. I used to enjoy this atmosphere�. Not so much anymore. Everyone knows everyone� though this was helpful when I started exposing WH�s adultery�especially, when I was able to correct those who WH told that we just separated, we grew apart. I let them know that it was the adultery with OW that was the reason WH abandoned his family. Most are shocked by his behavior and choice of OW (not that any choice is a good one).

Unfortunately, DS15 and DS12 attend same schools as OW�s 2 kids, and DS12 is in same grade as her son. Thankfully, DS9 is still in elem. school. DS12 is faced with this situation daily. Currently, they are also on the same soccer team. I have told DS12 that on the field they are both part of a team, but off the field, on the bus, in school he does not have to interact with her son if he chooses not too. He chooses not too, though WH maintains that they are all friends.

WH continues to flaunt his adultery in front of our sons. Recently, on non-visitation day, DS12 told me how WH picked OWs son up from soccer practice. WH unrolled his truck window and asked our son how he was doing and how soccer practice was while her son �got in MY dad�s truck. He should have been there to pick me up and take me home.� At soccer games, which are on his visitation days, WH and OW and her daughter are all interacting with each other with DSs present. I have pictures as proof. Though WH tells me he isn�t in violation because they are in public. I do make sure to get DS9 out of their presence, though Law Guardian recently told me that I shouldn�t be doing this blatantly- Why not? DS15 just removes himself and usually comes by me anyways.

Through the end of last April, our sons and her kids were on the same bowling league� so uncomfortable as we would all be there together. I signed up the boys on a different league this season and WH was very upset by this. He even refuses to pay their weekly fee on his weekend visitation (though judge clarified last spring that he needs to pay for this and any other activities when he has visitation). What is he going to do in court�. Complain to the judge that I moved the boys so they wouldn�t be bowling with his girlfriend�s kids? I would love to see this. The boys were happy to move as 2 of their friends/teammates signed up for same league they�re in now. I also felt that if I kept them in the same league as OW�s kids, I was condoning the contact between WH and them. Wouldn�t his lawyer jump on this to get the no contact clause out of visitation order?

There are so many more instances where WH is flaunting his infidelity in front of our sons and violating visitation, putting the needs of himself, her and her children above our sons, though he claims they are his top priority. A couple of weeks ago on his visitation wknd he had a dance at fire house that he just had to volunteer at. The boys stayed at home with me and he told them he would pick them up afterwards. Well, he never showed up until 10 am the next morning because �they (fellow firemen) wouldn�t let him drive�. Again, placing blame for his actions on someone else. �Don�t start with me; Do you think I�m happy about this?� It certainly didn�t stop him from putting the many bottles of beer to his lips.

Getting closer to current status.... this is very draining re-typing some of this... I know I've left a lot out....

Kateydid

In July at a Family Court hearing the law guardian�s recommendations were presented. The two big ones were the boys requested to spend Monday and Wednesday evenings with WH, in addition to already scheduled Tu & Th, during the week leading up to his weekend visitation; and she had recommended Family Counseling for all of us together. Part of this recommendation is due to WH never talking with boys about his moving out and adultery and part due to my wanting to recover/restore our marriage. The boys have questions for WH and I�ve had to answer some of them. The only thing WH said, per DS12, was �So, your mother told you I was seeing someone else?�

The counseling would help address issue of slow integration of DSs with OW. I shudder at this thought and am fighting this from happening, especially overnights. I do not want DSs exposed to the environment she provides her children, her lack of judgment, her lack of morals, etc� Also, living just up the road from her is a relative who is a convicted level two offender. A few years ago OW�s D accused OW�s fianc� of inappropriate conduct (later recanted). I would never want our children left alone together. I was completely blown away when about a year ago, WH told me that OW is really a good person, I just need to get to know her.

WH flat out refused extra visitation with our sons. I know this is because he would not be able to be with OW for an entire week if he agreed to this. (Side track: WH currently works 3rd shift and has since 2007. Prior to this he worked 2nd shift from 1998-2007. I know this led to some stress in our relationship, but I supported WH with these differing work shifts.)

WH refused/disagreed with Family Counseling. Judge then set a trial for October, which was postponed until November at court�s own motion, and just informed now postponed until December at court�s own motion. So current visitation schedule must be adhered to and at least for Thanksgiving, I know that when DSs are with WH, OW and family cannot be around. WH is not happy.

Currently�..

I am in Plan A, but this is very hard with WH out of the house and I don�t have many opportunities. I just sent him some family pics of all of us on our vacation last year with a note of �just thinking of you and our wonderful vacation together�. Hopefully there won�t be a negative response.

I don�t believe Plan B is an effective option at this point due to the possibility of Family Counseling to include WH, DSs and myself� if only the court hearing would happen when scheduled so I would know. Or is Plan B still an option right now? I don�t want to establish no contact with WH then to have contact�. Is this correct on my thinking???? Do I have this wrong???? Clarification anyone- experienced vets???? What else should I be doing???

Also, WH ignores me as best he can (esp. in public), as well as flaunt his adultery in my face (which he is also doing to our sons whether he realizes it or not?). When at soccer games, he will call out to OW�s children, say things to all of them like �Ok I�ll see you later?� �Do you need me to bring anything?� (again this is a violation of vis. order). Almost like he can�t wait until his visitation is over with. I am hoping that as he spends more of his time with OW, practically lives with her and her family when he doesn�t have visitation, the reality of affair-fantasy-land sets in.

I have great support from some family and my friends. My closest relative lives almost an hour away from me. I do have my in-laws who live nearby (15 mins away). However, I don�t get much support from them anymore esp. MIL. This is a complete 180 degree shift from a year ago. I get the feeling that she is trying to undermine me as a parent with DSs. Also, remember one of WH�s older sisters assisted/encouraged/supports WH�s adultery with OW.

As for me personally.... I have learned in the past year that I am a conflict avoider and find it very difficult to set boundaries. Though, I am beginning to realize this and am trying to establish them. I am very concerned with what/how people perceive me and always want to please others, so much so that I act the way I think others would want me to. I give others authority over me so that I am always justifying my actions/decisions. I can now see that I let others, esp. WH, set the hoops out and I jump through them every which way to please them. I just need to get to the point where I see the hoops being set up and I choose not to jump through them. I am getting there.

I think I�ve summarized current situation. I know I�ve left quite a bit out, please ask for clarifications as needed.

Kateydid

I'm a conflict avoider and lack boundaries too. Read "Boundaries" by Drs. Cloud & Townsend if you haven't already. I read "Boundaries with Kids" by them as well. Excellent books. That's all the advise I can offer.....good luck!

I would ask your lawyer for what the child custody relocation parameters are in your state and begin the process of moving.

Moving is in YOUR best interest...even if you recover your marriage.

In most states, even under the temporary orders you are permitted to move within a certain mile radius. Maybe 50 or 100 miles. Maybe within the county. You mentioned you have relatives an hour drive away. Well that's likely only 40 to 50 miles, at most. You likely could move there or 1/2 way there without even having to petition the court.

I'm not saying move tomorrow. Ask questions and BEGIN the process. First step is to start a job search. If you divorce, you are going to have to work and THE JOB you find becomes the rational justification for your relocation (lest the courts believe you are doing it only to punish your WH to the detriment of the children).

Additionally, they won't likely make you do family counselling against your will. Even if they do, it could be stopped after just ONE session, IF, at that time, you indicate to the assigned/appointed counsellor that you don't feel safe there (emotionally).

I still think Plan B is the way to go. If you can't change the locks...then get a chain for the door (or one of those poles that make it so doors can never be kicked in). CHAIN or blockade the main doors all the time and use the garage door as your access point (changing the code on the garage door opener if he still has a remote control to it). Hide a remote outside somewhere so your children can get in too. Nobody will ever question a woman living alone with small children from taking extraordinary precautions against "intruders". Perhaps disconnect the doorbell as well so you and your sons won't be bothered by his incessant ringing of the bell and you'll have a good excuse why you didn't answer later on ("oh my, the door bell was broken"). He'll get angry and then start POUNDING on the door and by that point you became FEARFUL and didn't FEEL safe allowing him in.

Maybe you only do this when you are at home. Meaning he still has access (which your lawyer seems to think you must allow for now) but only when YOU are not there. On exchanges, the door is chained. You walk the kids out and only go back in through the garage AFTER he leaves. On drop offs...same thing. You meet him OUTSIDE. After he leaves, you open the garage and take the kids in. IF he RESISTS this, he'll have to do it openly and brazenly...IN FRONT OF THE KIDS...and you'll just have more grounds upon which to base your motion for "exclusive use of the marital residence".

So anyway...Katy, IMO, it's high time for Plan B. Soccer season is ending shortly. It's time FOR YOU to look after YOU.

YOU MATTER.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I don't know if this is a direction you were considering; however, very often the divorcing mom takes the marital residence in lieu of other assets/cash/alimony. In these days of upsideness it's not as likely, but in your case I think it would be a horrible decision. YOU need out of that town and that home is a trap if you "take" it in any divorce proceeding.

p.p.s. - What happens in NY if you "win" your divorce case. Do you just remain married indefinitely or will he just have to refile a brand new case in 2 or 3 years (by which time the affair WILL very very very likely be dead so the question becomes "will YOU have the desire to still reconcile" which is why YOU need Plan B)??? If the divorce case gets dismissed...what happens to the "motion for exclusive use of the marital residence"...is that motion "attached" or something to the temporary support matter or to his divorce matter (or are those matters consolodated anyway)?

Mr W-

Thank you. I know you posted to me prior to MB going into the Twilight Zone... I so wish I had my old thread back. You have given me things to consider and further explore with my lawyer.

I have thought of moving, it is always in my mind. However, I've been told that legally I can't right now. There is no reason to "up-root" DSs from the only home they've known and school- their comfort & safe zones. Isn't this what WH has done already on some level? Apparently, my hands are tied legally based on what you stated:
Tomorrow I have another pre-trial conference. This was just scheduled a week ago by the Judge. I don't know why?? since we had a conference last month- just the lawyers went before judge for all of 5 minutes- and trial was set for Nov 4. I'm nervous and anxious about tomorrow.

I will ask my lawyer to pursue exclusive use of home, husband turning his keys over to me, my being able to change locks without him being able to remove anything else from the home until this is all settled. Maybe the judge will give a temp. ruling on this tommorrow.

I'm not sure what it means if the judge rules against WH's divorce petition due to insufficient grounds. A lot to think about here.... I am coming from the perspective that the best thing to do is to drag the divorce out while WH is in active A.

But, I also know that I need financial protection for me and DSs and WH seems to be withdrawing more and more in this area. He didn't pay for any school clothing, school supplies; he doesn't pay anything towards sports teamwear, extracurricular activities, etc... Since I signed the boys up in a different Saturday bowling league (they were in same one as OWs kids last year), WH has refused to pay their weekly fees when he has them on wknd visitation. This is because they are no longer bowling with OW's kids (and OW is there as well). So he is having yet another tantrum. He was told that he is responsible for this as well as other activities (friends bday parties, school functions/sports) last Spring by Judge. I am keeping receipts of his fees that I pay. It will be something to see/hear him say in court how he isn't paying for this because DSs are no longer bowling with his girlfriend's children.

Not only did I move DSs because of their uncomfortable-ness and mine, but I thought that if I were to keep DSs in same league it would be misconstrued by WH's lawyere that I was condoning contact of OW&kids with DSs. Then the current order would be void. IDK if that makes sense.... just my thoughts all over the place.

Yeah... soccer season is done. Interestingly, DS12 has been able to play the last few games without OWs son due to his academic performance, and then he quit the team. Yesterday was the last game, OWs son (or daughter) was not there on school grounds, but OW shows up with WH to watch the game. I am really pi$$ed- who is she to be there and she did not look comfortable. I keep a smile on, socialize with friends, loudly cheering DS and team on. And where are they... standing alone without anyone around them to talk to... even DS15&DS9 don't go over to see him. Ahhh... the life of adulterers.

And YES, I DO MATTER!!!

Kateydid

Update on pre-trial court conference (trial for WH's divorce petition on C&I grounds next Wed)....

At least today I didn't spend 2 1/2 hrs in waiting room. This was done in 30 minutes. Just our lawyers went in to speak with judge. My lawyer comes out to meet with me and asks if I want a divorce to which I reply "NO", are you sure? "NO I do not want a divorce!" So we go to trial next week.

My lawyer then proceeds to inform me that I have a boyfriend?!?! WTH??? This is what WH and his lawyer are now saying... they are so trying to get something on me so they have valid grounds for his divorce. Or is it jealousy, and is that a good thing???

I did ask my lawyer who my alleged boyfriend is, because if I have one he certainly isn't meeting any of my needs nor am I getting any of the benefits (a great pun is in this sentence). Apparently, it is DSs Scout master... hmmm... this would go against the Scout morals, honor, etc... Interestingly, last Spring WH was asked to be an assistant Scout Master, but this did not get pursued any further b/c of WH committing Adultery and Council would not approve it. BTW, Scout Master has a GF, and I am still married and committed to my marriage vows.

OK, DSs Scout Master and I are friends (his son and DS12 are friends), but I am also friends with assistant Scout Master (her son and DS15 are friends). I assured my lawyer that she wasn't my girlfriend either All of our sons are on the same bowling league, too and we have all helped each other out with kids activities when we're going in different directions. I also have other friends outside of scouts and bowling and we support each other as well.

I guess WH still thinks I should be sitting at home, pining away for him, struggling to keep up with everything, and begging him to come back..... instead of having the support and kindness of friends. He also made a comment 2 weeks ago when he wasn't sure if he could bring DSs to a scout function and I made the statement fine either Scout Master or Assistant will be happy too. His comment was "No, I'll do it, they're involved enough already"

OH and this.... picked up DS15 from cross country meet last night and he was hopping on one foot due to twisting his ankle. His coach stated that she didn't feel he needed medical attention. I called and of course had to leave a message as WH just never answers when I call. He never called back to see how DS15 was, but requested to talk with me after court this am. He then told me that I should have "called him at her place (his exact words)" I told him that I didn't have her number, "you could have looked it up in the phone book", I will continue to call your cell phone- it is not up to me to track you down. Oh and if I do call her # should I ask to speak with MY HUSBAND. Didn't give him a chance to respond, just got on the elevator and left.

What a tool.

You're keeping written records of all this, aren't you?

Hi catperson-

Yes, I am keeping a journal of all of this. The way I figure it, by the time this is done I will have some great material to write a book and make a small fortune.

Perhaps we should all compile our stories in a book and have it published... HMMM .. what title to give it??? How about Stupid is as Stupid does.....

I met with my lawyer on Friday to discuss next week's trial on WHs divorce petition on C&I treatment. I am soooo nervous at the thought of getting on the stand to testify. I am also embarassed at the reasons of C&I treatments WH has listed. Again, I was assured that WH has no grounds and my lawyer is 100% sure (I am going with 95%- ya just never know) it will be dismissed. He said that he was going to ask for it to be dismissed before anyone takes the stand. Most of the reasons are based on his reactions/emotional distress of my exposure of his adultery and typical marital issues that all go through given the length of the marriage (including my lawyer and most likely the judge has/had these issues). If it is not dismissed then I will counterfile that day.

Unfortunately, the only thing that will be addressed is WH's petition, though we are going to try for basically keeping WH out of house. I was concerned that WH will say that he hasn't been living at our home for almost a year now and can use this as a basis for divorce of being out of the home for one year. However, there has to be a legal separation in place and I also know that WH uses this as his legal address even though he gets some of his mail at his apt. All medical and other insurance info gets mailed to our home, and he is even planning on voting in the district where our home is and not the district where his apt. is.

After Wednesday if it is dismissed and out of the way, then I do need to think and strategize more.... Legal separation and how to drag this out as well as a divorce and keep it all in my favor and the best interest of me and my boys. Just waiting for resolution in Family Court in Dec. Plan B is in my future just determining when it can be done so that it is a solid Plan B, not one with holes in it.

Also, if it is dismissed I know WH will be extremely pi$$ed to the nth degree. Then I think... How will he react? He likes to be in control and won't be. How will OW react to this? How will they react together? How will he explain the dismissal to others? He has already told all who listen, esp his parents and sister (the one who encouraged his adultery), how controlling I am. I guess it would mean that I even have control over the judge.

Thinking out loud & venting to fellow MB'ers....

Over the course of the last few weeks I have been thinking more and more on the issues of control, love/hate/indifference, and possibly jealousy by WH.

First Control. I am experiencing with WH the all encompassing wayward wanting to control the BS. However, sometimes it seems to cross over into punishment of the BS regardless of who else gets hurt (even the WH getting hurt in the long run).

Example: My boys wanted me to be able to walk around with them Trick or Treating yesterday. In July, when they met with their Law Guardian and discussed holidays, one of their requests was that both WH and I walk with them on Halloween. As this got closer and they knew it was a visitation weekend with WH, they asked their LG when they met with her 2 wks ago that they wanted me to go along with them. The LG was absolutely in favor of this and said so to my boys, and afterwards to me. LG told boys to request this of their dad, and then asked me to do the same. If WH was not in agreement to let her know & she would contact WH. WH didn't agree, even said in front of our boys that it would not happen, it was his weekend and it didn't matter what they wanted. I asked again yesterday morning, again same response; I requested to at least be able to take a picture of them in their costumes ( I bought them) to which I was denied. I din't stay at home wallowing.... I went with my friend and her children and unfortunately, I didn't see my boys (had my camera with me just in case).

In the past, WH acknowledged he knows how much it hurts me to not be with the boys on special occasions, even on the wknds they go with him for visitation. I haven't not been with the boys trick/treating since my oldest started. Big, Bad WH controlling BS. I in turn have always tried to include WH in all children's functions/activities. I know in turn this won't look good for WH in Family Court.... but really to what extent?? I also know that our boys will remember their dad saying no. I wanted to say to WH that this is a public event and he can't stop me, I could have staked out his apt and waited for him to leave and followed him... but would that have caused a scene?? Should I in turn tell WH that unless it is his visitation he can't show up at any of the boys' activities/events unless it is during his visitation?? Just the... unless you do what I want, when I want I'm going to use my control and punish you. I can't wait to let WH know that the boys' cousins (my niece and nephew) are having a family bday party in 2 wks (his weekend) and the boys want to go. And if he can bring them or if I can take them. I foresee the No, it's my weekend and they're not going. How to get around, or better yet THROUGH the issue of Control? Is it as simple as just by keeping a smile on your face?

Thanks to all who read my thinking out loud and venting posts... not sure if my questions have answers... or if I even have questions, I just like the opportunity to share with others who know what IT is and feels like.

Love/Hate/Indifference & Jealousy will be in my next post. I really need to go as I'm picking up a friend and we're spending the afternoon together. Yes, I'm ignoring the housework and the opportunity to get it done twice as fast without the boys underfoot.

Kateydid: I thought I'd point out that in my state, legal separation is recognized if both spouses continue to live in the same house but maintain separate lives, bedrooms, etc. It's in light of the financial hardship of maintaining 2 separate residences while fulfilling the legal obligation of the separation period (though oddly enough, my state does not recognize legal separation in and of itself--go figure?). Anyway, I thought I'd point that out. It could very well be different in your state but you might want to double check w/ the lawyer, just so you are not blindsided in court and find out that in fact WH has fulfilled the obligation of separation, even if his mail still comes to your house.

Thanks OurHouse.

I live in NYS, which is a fault state, even for legal seperations. It is my understanding that the same grounds exist for a LS as for a divorce, and they need to be proven. LSs have to be filed with the court for one year at which time a "no-fault" divorce can be pursued by either party. This is also true for seperation agreements in that they have to be filed as well in the court.

Well, I never did get to go with boys on Halloween, WH just outright refused (wouldn't even let me go and take a picture- nor did he). DS15 hasn't gone out in a couple of years, it would just be DS12&9. However, DS12 didn't go out either due to having a sudden stomachache. Was he nervous/anxious/upset about going with WH and not with me as well? or was it an actual stomachache? DS12 made the comment last week, that because his dad wouldn't say where/when they were going it was due to OW and her kids going to be there.

DS12 was right. Last night DS9 was telling me all about Trick/treating on Saturday night. WH took him to the town over and OW and her kids met them there and walked around together. They obviously didn't want to be seen in our town. DS9 throws in "but it didn't bother me". Was he somehow coached to say this by WH?? Ya know, the devil himself could have been in costume and DS9 would have gone with him because of the fun-ness of the night. Talk about taking advantage of our son and the situation!!!

I called lawyer this morning and after the trial on Wednesday we will be filing a violation of visitation order complaint. I'm not sure what will be/can be done but WH needs to know there are boundaries here (yes I am acting on a boundary).

The boys Law Guardian called me today to see how Halloween went and I told her. She is very upset with WH and how selfish he acted, esp when the boys requested I go along. I did inform her that I was filing a violation of visitation order. LG had talked with WH's attorney last week stating what boys have requested and his attorney told her that I had a boyfriend now. WTH?? where are they getting this?? LG also feels that it is to somehow discredit me, try to use this as a way to get OW/kids to be around boys during visitation. I again stated adamently that I didn't want a divorce and that I wanted to recover, rebuild, renew marriage with WH. She will be calling WHs attorney to follow up.

Kateydid,
Sorry that you find yourself here. Glad you are standing up for yourself with this D and not taking an active roll.

I hear from so many about how when they look back that they wish they were more aggressive with what they should have asked for.

When these waywards leave they turn "into stupid". The only words they can remember are me me me.

You are doing a great job with your kids and they recognize it. My prayers are with you.

Thank you Hope. You, along with so many others here, are in my prayers as well.

Through all of this what I want for my boys is to understand what a healthy relationship is and how to fulfill their roles in the relationship. I do worry about that as they continue to see what their father is doing and has done.

DS15 now has a girlfriend (where do the years go?) and I can't imagine what he is thinking given our current situation along with the normal teenage hormones kicking in, and how he is trying to grasp this?

Yesterday in phone conversation with boys' LG, she had stated that the boys do not like to talk about WH having a girlfriend and moving out because of his adultery. They try to "hide" what is going on, do not like to talk about it, and seem embarassed about what WH is doing (esp. DS15). This is concerning to her, as WH still has never talked with DSs about any of this. Other than his question to them "So, your mother told you I was seeing someone else?" I continue to shake my head in disbelief at this one. Perhaps WH thinks its OK then if he is just "seeing" OW and not "----ing, ----ing, and ----ing" OW.

If WH could only see what his actions have done, are doing, and will continue to do ..... I know one of the things we BWs & BHs all want.

Now, I need to be strong to get through tomorrow. And, to remember no matter the outcome of trial (and my mental/emotional status) to file the violation of visitation while still at the courthouse with my lawyer.

I think you're being a great mom and comfort to them. I'm sure you're going to talk to them about not being ashamed of what he's doing - but rather, being mad about it. They need to know it's ok to be mad at someone. Those who learn to stuff it, who are afraid to admit they're mad or hurt, turn into lifelong basketcases (raising hand here).

Good luck!

Good luck tomorrow.

Perhaps when you file the violation of visitation motion you may be able to request "supervised visitation" as one of your remedies. Won't likely get it...this time but I imagine it's a miserable experience to be told you might have to be supervised to be in the presence of your children.

But you must get the ball rolling on these violations as they are like traffic tickets that can accumulate over time. Sure the first couple times they might get set aside or slapped on the wrist but eventually these judges get sick of it and realize THEIR authority is being challenged. THEN...they start getting serious.

Also...seems to me your children MAY also fear losing their father like you seem to be. I mean...if he can throw away YOU why not them too? They don't want to risk it so they go along to get along (ds9) or they fiegn an illness so they can innocently avoid going along (ds12).

Mr. W

Thanks!!!

Yes, I need to do this... excellent point!


I'm raising my hand here too, heck, I'm jumping up and down on this!! But, through this I'm slowly (very slowly at that) working through not "stuffing" it down any longer and the fear of what others will think of me expressing my feelings. This is part of personal recovery, isn't it?

Mr. W-

Thanks.


I'm wondering now... WH has violated the visitation order in the past numerous times. One time the OW walked into his apt while DSs were there, she was mad (per DS12) and started an argument with WH (they did go outside for most of this). Talk about emotional turmoil for DSs. I informed lawyer of this and he said to just document it. I wonder why he didn't have me file violation then or other times.

After I read this my first reaction was exactly, but then I found myself falling back into that mode of wanting to protect WH and not upset him or his family and what they will think of me. WHY do I do this? Is this common for the BW? Or as I think while I type, perhaps to answer my own question... this is typical of the conflict avoider personality (?).

I see your point. Honestly that is one of my top fears. I've also thought this with my boys and actually said this to WH months ago. I would let him know what the boys would say to me about the situation, not wanting to spend time with OW and her kids, etc... WH would ask why don't they say this to me? My response was always "you walked away from them once already, they are afraid you will walk away again." Of course all I got was the typical wayward response of "you don't know what you're talking about, they will adjust, you just keep turning them against me, blah, blah, blah.... (had to use the new emoticon).

Kateydid

Finally have time for an update... kids are off to school, and I am allowing myself 15 minutes B4 work. The last several days have been busy... I even joined the Big 4-0 club on Thursday. The love that I had (and still have) around me was so wonderful and I am extremely grateful for all that I do have in my life. And that God has always been, is, & will always be with me.

The outcome of court trial on Wednesday is that WHs divorce petition was dismissed due to lack of grounds. I even think he realized how silly some of his claims were. I often wonder about the garbage he is being fed by those that influence his life right now which bolsters his rewrite of our marital history. He gave testimony and then try to take it back; i.e., WH: "I couldn't do what I wanted to do I had to take kids to these activities while BS would stay home and do housework/grocery shopping... not that I minded doing this. I would have to help with laundry, getting dinner, etc..." This was also after stating that I wouldn't get home from work/picking boys up from after-school care until 5:30/6:00 and he slept during day until 4:00 due to his working 3rd shift.

I never had to take the stand and give testimony. My lawyer requested the dismissal before my testimony was set to begin, BUT not before he cross-examined WH. WH contradicted himself several times, even to the point that the judge interrupted to ask WH a question (which his lawyer tried to get stricken from court record).

The very first question to WH by my atty was "WH who is OW?"
WH: turning red/squirming and a long pause later "A very good friend."
My atty: "WH have you had sexual relations with OW?"
WH: still red in the face/uncomfortable "Yes"
My atty: "When did you start having SR with OW?"
WH: with a little attitude "After I moved out"
My atty:"What was your relationship with OW before this?"
WH: "We were just good friends"
My atty: "When did this friendship start?"
WH: "Last July 2008"

Wrong, how soon we forget the timeline.... He admitted to me last June to relationship with OW (just kissing at the time- YUK!) It actually started earlier than that. We were gone the last half of July on vacation- our chance to reconnect (which they contacted each other; I intercepted a text).

My attorney asked other questions that further showed contradictions. But, all of this is in court records by WH who was under oath. This can be brought into Family Court proceedings now.

OH, prior to going into the courtroom, my atty tells me there is an offer on the table.... If I agree to the divorce then after marital assets are split, I will be given an extra $10,000.00 from WHs settlement. I was never so offended in my life (well except WHs adultery) which I let my atty know (I think I may even have dropped the F-bomb to my atty). To think I could be bought out of our marriage. They were already grasping at anything knowing that it would be dismissed.

I feel vindicated in that his grounds of Cruel & Inhuman treatment as a reason for divorce was dismissed. I don't feel that I've "won" because we are all still losers in this. However, WH feels like he has lost and right now I think he is very determined to further get to me, break me into filing for divorce. I am working on my timeline right now. I know (&WH knows) the ball is in my court as far as a divorce occurring. I feel that I have some control (I don't know if thats the word I want to use) and I'm not "behind the eight ball" anymore. WH can't even file for a SA because grounds need to be proven for that.


OK, I will be back on later... have to go to work.

kateydid

Great job!

And Happy Birthday! And pssst! The 40s are better than the 30s!

Thanks, Catperson.



I am looking forward to a new year, new decade and embracing the opportunities to heal and grow. I still pray for the recovery & restoration of my marriage and hope that opportunity presents itself. I want to be able to navigate the journey of recovery.

This morning my head is spinning with so many thoughts and questions, I didn't sleep well, I am venting, and this will be long..... Here I go....

This past weekend the boys were home. Saturday, at their bowling league WH and OW show up half hour after it starts. I am livid... there is no reason for OW to be there; her kids were not bowling. Of course, WH always uses the "it's a public place" excuse. The boys were uncomfortable, they didn't go over to say hi to WH, he had to come to them. I kept my head up and a smile on my face, joking with the boys and their teammates, socializing with other parents. Also, my in-laws were there, so I made a point of being chatty/chummy with them as well. OW only stood at the counter where you first come in (It is small, only 8 lanes). I know she saw all of this. They left after 45 minutes.

Sunday.... DS9 bowled again due to qualifying for monthly scholarship bowling. Again, WH shows up after this begins with OW and her 12 yr son. DS9 was not happy, and there was a subtle shift in his demeanor. Several times WH would say words of encouragement, DS9 just looked at him with an angry look on his face. At one time, MIL said DS9, you're dad said good job. It wasn't acknowledged. At one point, DS9 rolled a couple of gutter balls and he started to cry... this is not like him. Afterwards, I took the opportunity of our alone time in the car to talk with DS9 about those that we love, and that even though we love them we don't have to like what they do, their choices, etc... It is OK to feel like this and talk about it without being afraid of getting yelled at, ignored, or making others mad. When asked how he felt about his dad, he said that it didn't bother him today, but the tone and look indicated that it did.

I've requested WH not to attend any of the boys activities with OW, her kids as it upsets our DSs. The usual response.."I can it's a public place, and I'm not on visitation. You're the one that upsets them by influencing them against OW" Like that makes all the difference. Is there any way to knock down this entitlement? Stop him from flaunting his adultery with OW, her kids? Family court trial is a month away.... or "give him enough rope, he'll hang himself".

The boys are very upset, my younger two opened up yesterday to a friend of mine (was mutual friend before all of this). DS9 stated that he doesn't like to see his dad and OW hold hands... he witnessed this when Trick or Treating with WH, as well as at a parade several weeks ago. They told her that their dad has been asking them what I've been doing lately, who I talk to. DS12 brought up how dad is making a mistake. She corrected him in that what dad is doing is not a mistake but conscious choices on his part. They also asked her if their dad could make them stop going to her house after school. Remember, WH thinks some people are too involved in all of this.... only those who haven't accepted his adultery, and provide support to me.

He's even accused me of having a BF, a friend of both of ours until 2 months ago (now just mine) as well as a supportive person in the boys life as their scout master. Not only did his atty tell my atty this 2 weeks ago (in previous post), but his atty stated this to the law guardian who told me this in our conversation last week. I am dumbfounded.... I have male/female friends who are single and married. Is he "looking" for something on me to bring to court? I have never strayed outside the boundaries of my marriage and vows.

Oh, and he took DSs shopping and bought birthday presents/cards from them..... I am so confused by his actions..... I know, I know he is a wayward.

Is he looking for "ammunition" against me in Family Court? Is he going to the extreme to flaunt his adultery because he "lost" (this is how he sees it) as his divorce petition was dismissed trying to force me to file? Is he jealous because he is asking boys questions about my activities & whereabouts & who I talk to? Is he trying to get me to end my friendships? Does he want me to just stay home, struggle, fail and beg him to come back? Also, I've learned that he and OW are meeting with his atty in a couple of weeks. Could this be for Family Court? Why is she meeting with atty?

Since last week's dismissal of divorce petition, I've had a couple of friends say to me "sit back and watch it unravel for WH and OW." All I see is more determination from them.

I must say that he has me feeling very paranoid, and I fall right back into second guessing myself and reacting how I think others want me to.

Kateydid

PS- Wow, I just previewed this and it is way long. Thanks to all who have gotten this far.... to all of you.

You missed a perfect opportunity to say to WH's mother: "Our son is in pain every time he sees your son with that woman. If you cared about your grandchildren, you would tell WH not to bring another woman around his sons."

You also missed an opportunity to say to all the other bowlers: "I'm sorry that WH is bringing his affair partner around us. It's making DS1 and DS2 too upset to bowl properly. Not to mention that it's breaking their hearts to see him cheating on their mom right out in public. But I can't do anything about it, except watch him tear his sons' hearts apart."

If you want him back, you HAVE to start making things uncomfortable. KEEP bringing up the fact that he cheated on you, and HARP on the fact that he is shoving that woman in their faces, and how they are just children, have no control, and it's destroying their self esteem. Let everyone see how much your kids are hurting, and show them all the ways in which they are suffering.

If you don't want him back, you need to get papers drawn up so that you can try to get control over where they have to see that woman.

Good job getting the divorce dismissed. However, wasn't the temporary order forbidding him from exposing the boys to OW part of that case? Can he do whatever he wants and take the boys whenever and wherever he wants?

Also, since you are out of that arena...seems to me you can change your locks now. Is WH still coming and going as he pleases???

At least put the chang on the entry doors when you are home and only come and go through the garage. If WH kicks his way in which IS legal since it's his house too, doesn't mean you can't call the cops and/or file a restraining order. The violent act of kicking in the door by itself will appear intimidating and threatening.

You need to protect you.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - in Plan B, you won't be able to take the kids bowling or attend anything where husband is going to show up. Seriously, when can you move? Without a divorce petition to worry about, you and boys can move anywhere (within reason so as to not be easily accused of parental alienation yourself).

I think awhile back you said you have relatives living two hours away.

What if:

1. You look for and find a job near them (any job will do)
2. Let WH know you are taking the kids to visit relatives for Christmas
3. Register the kids for school in the new area starting after the break
4. Pack up like it's just a trip before hand, in case WH gets suspicious.
5. Have a relative or two come the day you are leaving and help pack up everything AND MOVE.
6. Go to Plan B at that time.

I believe this is within your legal rights. You MAY choose to file for a legal separation at that time using your NEW address such that you won't appear to be alienating your husband from his children. He'll have every right to have visitation but he'll have to travel to do so and the courts will set it up. I fear absent a "separation agreement", WH will have the right to take the kids whenever and whereever he chooses which means when he comes to visit, he can merely take them back to your hometown, move back into your home (OW as well) and attempt to get the upper hand on winning custody himself.

Just an idea.

Mr. Wondering

Catperson-

I absolutely want to recover my marriage!

I did miss an opportunity didn't I with MIL. But I'm also torn by the fact that she has early Alzheimer's, and don't want to end up making a scene with her. Wouldn't WH like to bring that up in Family Court! Am I the doormat yet again? Also, I would think her seeing the looks on DS9's face and knowing that she had to point out WH's encouragement would make an impact-IDK?

This is also the same woman, who was at court last week and WHs atty was going to possibly have her testify after I testified. Never happened. During a short recess, out in the waiting area, MIL needed to use restroom. As she approached me in hallway she says "Hi, BW how are you?" then "we have a bday gift for you we'll bring over in the next day or two" ending with a small tap/punch to upper arm stating "Hang in there" During this exchange I am very emotional/crying still from being in the courtroom. WTH????

I have exposed to the adults at the bowling alley, even the owners are aware and made statements last year that this is what OW does (they have known her for years). I even told the assistant coaches who collect the fees that WH is responsible for paying on his weekends but he doesn't. They responded that they just don't understand, because it will catch up to him and bite him in the @$$. Some parents say "he just doesn't get it" referring to bringing OW with him when he's around the boys. Yet some others seem to look at me with pity. And then there are the others who "don't want to get involved". Should I continue to bring this up? I don't want to become a broken record in that it will turn people off... ya know what I mean?

How is it any different having OW with him when he has boys on visitation vs. being around boys on non-visitation. There is no respect for our sons. Just the mindset- I'm your dad and have authority over you and I will make you like/accept what I do when I do it.

You have to wonder what goes through these OW's minds (if in fact, they have minds). What woman with an ounce of sanity, would want to be dragged into this drama? I was never an OW, but when I was single, I dated a divorced guy with a young daughter. OMG, that girl *hated* me. She wanted her parents back together and I was seen as the person who was standing in the way of that. Of course I wasn't. Her parents divorced long before her father met me and they had no plans on getting back together. Her mother had a pretty serious boyfriend. But I would look for ANY excuse NOT to intrude on time this guy had planned with his daughter.

Sheesh.

Just keep being a rock for your children. You know you can't control the actions of others anyway, so I wouldn't even waste my time trying to get through to WH about skank.
Regarding discussing with others, the ones who "don't want to get involved" aren't really friends anyway, so don't push the issue around them. The ones who are supportive, sure, continue to mention it, as they might want to chime in, but are holding back so as not to hurt your feelings. OW needs to be shunned as much as possible.
But worry about the boys the most. Tell them that this isn't about them and that WH has a character flaw that allows him to do this, but that everyone has flaws, so they can't blame themselves. Make it clear to them that YOU ARE OK. That way, they won't feel obligated to defend your honor, if you get my drift.

katey, you're making excuses for your weakness.

Your sons NEED you to take this by the reins and be in control!

Be mad! Be strong! Stop worrying about what WH thinks, because he is an alien! NOT your H! If you pull this off, get him away from skank, the fog clears, he will THANK you for being strong and doing the hard work.

But you HAVE to stop being nice and worrying about what everyone else thinks and wants. You are the only sane person left.

And it's eating your sons up.

Thank you, Mr. W.

There is a current visitation order that states that when WH is exercising his visitation he cannot have contact with OW and/or her children. I guess during non-visitation the boys' attitudes toward OW and her kids change too so it's OK.... This was not part of the divorce trial, this continues to be addressed in Family Court- there is a trial scheduled for next month.

He absolutely cannot take the boys when/wherever he wants. He very much does not like this... again the mindset of I am their father and have authority, blah, blah, blah.... He doesn't even like it when the boys spend the night at friend's homes if he feels that they are not supportive of him right now. Why are they spending the night there? You didn't ask me if they could? UMMM... its not during your visitation time.

I will be adding dead bolts (cheaper than changing locks) to all doors but one, and on this door I will add an additional lock. This way if ever anything legal is brought up I can easily remove it if need be. There has been a padlock on the outside basement doors for the past several months.

I would love to move... makes so much sense... but because of possible parental alienation & moving away as a punishment to WH being brought up in Family Court it is recommended that I stay where I am. Also, my mortgage (including escrow) is cheaper than rent of an apartment.

Kateydid

OurHouse-

Perhaps it is the competition and drama that OW is enjoying. Ya know they are soulmates Honestly, I thought she would have gone away by now.... but I don't know what is going on over on their side of the mountain. I would think that the dismissal of divorce petition last week would put a kink in their adultery. IDK... maybe it has. Is that why WH has stepped up his efforts in trying to include OW/her kids in boys' activities????

Ima-

I do tell them on days that they are struggling more than others that this has absolutely nothing to do with them, they didn't do anything to cause this. I tell them that I love them and that nobody is mad at them. Just yesterday at our friend's home they opened up to her and even she reiterated to them that this has nothing to do with them, they didn't cause this, their dad didn't make a mistake but rather he made a choice to have a girlfriend & leave.

We just talked the other day about taking each day as it comes and that no matter what I am OK and they will be too.

Kateydid

Still, ya gotta wonder about some people..

Isn't life difficult enough without adding to the drama? When I dated that divorced guy, his daughter was the reason we eventually broke up. I couldn't take the aggravation of dealing with her (ok, I was pretty young in those days... in my early 20's and NOT ready for that kind of responsibility) and he probably didn't like the guilt factor. So it was easier to end the relationship.

And that was between a single woman and a divorced man. No adultery involved! Sheesh, throw in an affair and a BS and kids...the OW has got to be insane.

Insane isn't the exact word(s) that come to mind... well it is one of many.

Supposedly, OW may be called to testify to her good judgement so that the judge will see that she has great character, is a wonderful role model, and will not be harmful to DSs if she/her kids are present during visitation.

If me and my boys weren't center stage so to speak, it might be something to look forward to hearing/seeing OW take the stand to defend her great character.

I wonder what she could say about herself that bolsters her good judgement and character...

I know, I know....
OW: "I don't know why they would be so unhappy b/c I am making WH happy and that will make him a better dad"
OW: "I'm not a bad person just because I tore apart a family and committed adultery with WH. We love each other so much, DSs should be exposed to that kind of love."
OW: "I am at their level and so I would really know how to interact with DSs"

EEWWWWW!!! my mouth tastes horrible after spewing such "heifer dust" (my gramma's favorite expression)... excuse me while I go get the mouthwash.

OK just learned some very stressing news.

WHs company is closing within 2 yrs. They were bought out several months ago by an overseas company. My thoughts are all over the place. Not sure what this means in current situation... the future was unshaky before, but even more so now. I just can't help thinking this is a crisis that WH and I should be going through together.

Stinkin' Thinkin'.... As the news of WH's company closing within 2 yrs sinks in more and more, more thoughts/questions come to mind. The most being financially related. If anyone has any answers/thoughts, been in a similar situation they would be greatly appreciated.

How will his unemployment affect child support payments? I realize unemployment compensation will be less than actual wages. Is he still responsible for making the set amount established in court (which was based on his income)? Will it be modified? Can CS payments be garnished from unemployment checks?

I know people who work within this company, so I will be able to be updated on the status of when company will close. This definitely puts a kink in my plans. I was going to take the next year, now that the divorce petition has been dismissed, in 6-month increments and do a "check-in" with myself before making any decisions re: pursuing a legal sep/divorce.

However, when I hear of a more defined time-frame of company closing (within month or 2 weeks) I know I will need to file to protect myself and boys financially, esp. in regards to his employee stock and 401K. He may try to cash in without my knowledge. Am I correct?

I pray daily for God to put obstacles and chaos in WH's adultery. I see this as such(for myself as well, but if this is the vehicle, then so be it, only God knows His plan.) Now I know, and this has been stated by several of my friends who have known OW for years, that OW thrives on drama and likes being the center of attention. However, will she want to support an unemployed WH and his financial obligations? Especially since she was looking forward to using him financially (as I've also been told that's her MO in all relationships with men)? or Will this be more of a push to be determined to show everyone this affair was not a mistake?

Should I just sit back with my bowl of pocpcorn and watch the show?

UUGGHH!!!!...... Stinkin' thinkin' stinks.

I hear you on Stinkin' Thinkin' Kateydid. I'm guilty of same and I can tell when I'm not making it to enough Alanon meetings...it kicks in big time.

You don't know when H's company will close, you don't know if/when H will get another job before then. I'd recommend sticking with your current plan in lieu of any other details coming to light right now. You can always adjust as you get new information. Remember this is something over which you have no control. I know my stinkin' thinking' gets me into hot water when I start to stress about things out of my control.

As far as CS payments--the courts will set them based on WH's current income and if things change, they could reduce them temporarily. My cousin's ex-husband took a 10% paycut at work and took her back to court to get his payments reduced accordingly. She took a second job. You do what you have to do.

If you happen to have the fringe benefits coordinators contact information you MAY want to contact them to let them know that you and your husband are currently separated and put them on alert that they should double check any distribution or withdrawal forms they ever seemingly receive from you AND wh for authenticity. Provide them with a cell or home number and confirm YOUR address with them telling them to send out two copies of the statement if they can as, no doubt, wh will change the address to his new address and you'll never know what's going on...until it's too late.

You see...right now he could simply forge your signature on a little piece of paper and withdraw a nice big chunck (or all) the monies in there. No one there will question it as it's just a simple form. Sure it would be illegal and hurt him in all sorts of ways in any divorce or custody case...but once the money is gone...it's gone. Waywards live for the moment and his entitlement will whisper in his ear telling him "he deserves" all that money and shouldn't have to split it let alone give it all to you. He won't care about the ethics of doing so....as morality and ethics are apparently not his strong suit.

A phone call may be in order to find out to whom and where to send such notice but a letter is required to put them on full legal notice. I don't know if they will respond...you really just need to insure it's noted on the account. Keep a copy for yourself. This way, IF they somehow were to distribute to him on a forged signature one day you MAY have recourse against them for doing so.

It's not likely...but it happens.

Mr. Wondering

Mr W-

Thanks so much!!

I have a statement from last year prior to WH moving out from financial company that holds his 401K and Employee stock. The address and phone number is on there. It is definitely worth a try to contact them and provide our current marital status and request I be contacted to verify any early withdrawals.

Also, I am thinking that I need to contact medical insurance company to ensure that WH doesn't just drop me. I believe that he is legally responsible to maintain my medical insurance (I've been on his insurance for 15 years).

OurHouse-

Yes I know I just need to
Stop
Be Still
and
Breathe

It's amazing how our thoughts can spiral out of control into a tornado.

katey, I went to a women's conference today, and I'm practically giddy with empowerment. I highly recommend it if you can find one! The most important thing I came away with is that we have the power to plan our lives out, no matter how many obstacles you face, as long as you stay positive you can accomplish anything. Every one of the speakers faced some sort of seemingly insurmountable problem that would have had us in tears. But they squared their shoulders, and found out how to move on. And triumph.

As for your situation, Suzie Ormond was our key speaker. WOW! I recommend everyone go to her website and learn how to set up your financial future. You can protect yourself and take great steps so you'll be safe no matter what happens.

Catperson- Thanks. I have heard wonderful things about Suzie Ormond from a friend. If I get a chance I will look at her website this weekend. I also understand that you can email her questions and she (or her staff) will answer them. I am happy to hear that you had such a positive experience from your conference- Empowerment is wonderful!

New dilemma for the day that involves DSs...

All 3 DSs are angry with their father, esp. DS12. DS12 has stated several times since getting home from yesterday's visitation that he is not going to his father's this weekend. I'm not sure if I have to make him go, or if WH can force him. I will be putting a call into DSs legal guardian for advice.

Here's the situation. Last week we received invitation to niece's (6yrs) & nephew's(11yrs) combined bday party, which is tomorrow. This is on my side of the family, my brother's children. The boys all expressed that they definitely wanted to go; we haven't missed any of their b'days. I emailed WH stating when party was and that the boys wanted to go and I offered to "swap out" time for this next weekend. (I'm glad that I have this in writing.) Never got a response.

The boys asked their father this past Tuesday during visitation, DS12 states that he never answered them, never uttered a word in response. They arrive home and boys ask WH in front of me. The response was "I don't know", I stated taht I needed to let bro know number of kids attending, so then WH responds "No, I have plans with the boys" though he couldn't tell them what the plans were. Yesterday, after boys get home (only DS12 & DS9 went as DS15 was home sick and requested to stay home instead of going to WHs for the day) and WH leaves, DS12 in tears states that WH will not let them go because WH said "I want to do what I want to do with you this weekend". DS12 states the big plans are to go hunting. DS12 states he does not want to do this, but go to his cousins' party. DS15&9 agree. Really, how can DS15 go with a sinus infection!! DS12 made the comment that if we don't go hunting with dad, we'll just be at grandma's and grandpa's, so why cant' we just go to the party? DS12 states he is not going to WH's, he is staying with me so he can go to the party. DS12 is angry, in tears and was in a very bad mood last night. He was physical with DS9 (headlocks, punching because DS9 would look at him funny, move his pencil).

Anyone have experience with this? Do I make DSs go? Can WH force them?.

A really sad aspect of this is that our niece and nephew always ask about their Uncle and when he will be coming out with us, and that WH and my brother were friends before we met. As my bro stated "what have my children ever done to him?" to which I respond "what have his own children ever done?"

One big sigh of relief....

I just re-read Family Court Support Order. WH has to provide insurance coverage for me at the current pro-rated amount established in the Order.

Kateydid,

I would not force any of your DSs to go with your WH if they don't want to, but I don't have a visitation order or anything, so I know that my kids cannot be forced to go with my WH.

I think your best bet is to see what the legal guardian has to say - you don't want to get into trouble that could cost you time or custody with your DSs.

This is the stuff that REALLY makes me MAD. Your DS12's feelings should absolutely be taken into account - he is a human being with feelings, not a possession. All of your DSs have every right to be mad at WH and/or to not want to go with him. Our legal systems stink. D may be an adult situation, but the children suffer the most.

I am so PI$$36 right now... I can't sleep... it's late... I need to get up in a little while and wrap Toys for Tots collection boxes... and turned TV on and of all movies "French Kiss" is on which was a fave movie of mine.... UUUGGGGHHHH!!!!!

So I guess the other big plans WH had for DSs this weekend was to go bowling with OW and her kids (instead of letting them go to their cousins' bday party with me though they wanted to- see previous post)

A huge, undeniable VIOLATION of visitation order. I need to contact atty on Monday and file another violation. What could he possibly be thinking? That this will somehow help him in getting OW and her kids integrated? Does he not think the judge will be annoyed at his lack of respect/disregard to the order that he agreed with and signed? We are still married and there is no divorce since his petition was dismissed due to lack of grounds. He certainly is not thinking about what is in our children's best interest!!!

And how do I know this.... I'm out shopping tonight and all of a sudden DS12 texts me with a "Hey". I thought this to be odd as he hasn't done this before, but now I think that perhaps he was reaching out to me due to the situation he and his brothers were put in. So in texting back and forth, he was at the bowling alley at the time of his texting, he confirms that they are all bowling with WH and OW. After shopping I get to our town and drive by the bowling alley and sure enough WH's and OW's vehicles are there, actually they are the only ones there. DS12's texts included "yeah she's here, but oh well" and a follow-up to me asking if he was OK or uncomfortable "not really but somehow". Several of his texts also included "I luv u mom".

Also, today was annual food drive sponsored by Cub Scouts (DS9 belongs) and Boy Scouts (DS12&15 belong). They are responsible for pickup and helping local food pantries sort. THis counts towards required service hours. He never brought them.

Seems to me you maybe coulda have texted son and asked if he'd like you to pick him (and the other two) up. They maybe coulda sneaked off and then out the door to your waiting car and just left WH and OW at the bowling alley.

Ask your attorney about this but it seems plausible. The text messages will back you up if and when WH makes a stink about it in court. HE was violating the orders. You were merely SAVING your children.

Again, ask your attorney as there are risks. You know he'll call the cops trying to indicate you were "kidnapping" the kids or something and I don't know how the police will respond to the visitation order. You should carry a copy of it with you to be able to show HE is violating it...but cops don't want to be the one settling disputes. If you DID ever do such thing...you wouldn't want to go home with the boys. You'd want to text WH that you have them ....the boys wanted out because OW was there in violation of the visitation order and you saved them.

I don't know...I'm just sorry you are in this situation and hope the courts can address it SOON.

Mr. Wondering

In addition,

See if you attorney can petition for FULL custody and SUPERVISED VISITATION. In addition to having OW around the kids, his missing of activities is a demonstration that:

1. He can't be trusted to follow orders.
2. He can't maintain the children's activity schedule


Courts want children to have consistency. Since he can't follow through he shouldn't get weekends at all. Maybe just Wednesday evening visitation or Tues/Thurs evening plus one or two weeks in the summer. The judge SHOULD slap him with something like that AND make it very clear that IF he violates his/her orders again...he'll get supervised visitation.

YOU are the only sane parent these boys have right now. What a shame. But as that sane parent...you've got to be persistent about fighting for them (despite the pain YOU are being put through right now). You really don't have any choice other than being one tough lady, do you? You'll be proud of yourself one day for being able to get through this ALL BY YOURSELF.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W-

Just reading your response has me crying... Just knowing that there are others out there who know what it's like to be in this situation and are so willing to give advice/support... is PRICELESS!! I don't know what else to say but THANKS!! It is so helpful to get brought back down and grounded, but d@mn, the emotions on this coaster ride!!! Lately I feel that this rollercoaster ride has missing rails.

Yes another call to the atty, another violation. A friend told me that maybe I should have all visitation temporarily suspended and WH will have to "show cause" as to why it should be resumed. Not sure what a "show cause" hearing is. We do have a scheduled trial in family court for mid-Dec already. Though this has been moved back from the original date in Oct and with the holidays here, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't get moved back again. My case is considered low priority in the larger scheme of things in the over-worked Family Court system.

BUT, I HAVE to be PERSISTENT!! An overwhelming thought I have in light of last night's events is that when WH has DSs for Thanksgiving (has them Wed-Th, 3pm-3pm) OW and her kids will be at my in-laws as well for dinner.

I know I have to be the strong, sane parent now for my boys. My fear is that if visitation is reduced/suspended, DSs will be upset with me because they do want to spend time with their dad. I wonder if it would be possible to also request a restraining order so OW cannot be near the boys, or WH when he is at boys' activities regardless of whether or not it is during his visitation. He really is "splitting hairs" with that- if it's not his visitation he has no qualms about bringing OW and her kids to DSs activities. Though what would it matter she can't follow the current visitation order.

I'm trying not to focus on WH and his behavior currently because he is a WAYWARD and it is impossible to know what waywards are thinking, but.... What is he thinking???? Is it possible that his atty is directing him to have OW/kids around at "fun" events with DSs (i.e., County Fair, Bowling, Trick-or-Treating)? Would an attorney do this knowing what the current visitation order states?

Yeah...filing a restraining order MAY be possible. YOU are the custodial parent and the reason WH was not supposed to expose the kids to OW was because the court considers that hurtful and damaging to the children. A restraining order on her MAY be obtainable...as HER actions are harming the kids. Right now only your WH is violating an order. A restraining order makes HER stay away too...legally.

I also wonder what would happen if you just refused visitation unless he guaranteed compliance with the order. When he "promises" and then exposes them anyway...you withhold visitation again for a few days and then he must promise again, IN WRITING, before you give him visitation. Thus, you will be creating a paper trail for your December hearing.

A motion to show cause would be a motion your husband would file basically requesting a hearing demanding you either give him the kids per the temporary custody order OR show cause why such visitation is being denied.

As you said, your hearing was already delayed once and MAY be delayed yet again. He's gonna keep exposing them unless you do something. It sucks getting the kids in the middle but your oldest IS 15 and addressing this with him might be in order. IF he wants you to push the issue and attempt to get WH to COMPLY with the court order, then you will do so. IF he doesn't want to create waves right now and have you wait until the scheduled hearing, then so be it.

Your boys will be men (or at least 18 soon enough). At that point they don't ever have to see OW again (if WH is even with her then). They are most concerned with preserving a relationship with their father; however, they CAN start learing about boundaries. Ultimately, they CAN learn that THEY have the ability and power to simply tell WH that they don't want to see him if OW is there. But that is a tough thing for a child to conceive of or should I say risk with a father that just walked out on their mother (they may fear THEY are next). Counselling...if you can and talk to your lawyer about what can be done in your state. Hopefully, the Judge will smack him down hard soon enough (and not just give him a slap on the wrist).

Mr. Wondering

lol...I always have these afterthoughts.

One key to withholding custody (if your lawyer says you can) and then documenting like I said above IS:

You can bet when your court date finally happens and your attorney presents the court with all the violations, your husband will play dumb. He'll act like he just thought he wasn't allowed to have OW overnight during his overnights and that the order didn't apply to public places like bowling alleys, etc. By withholding visitation he'll either have to file a motion to show cause (which is a hassle for him when he'd rather just be wayward) OR start documenting promises (which is easier for a wayward) which in the end will demonstrate to the court (as he continually breaks such promises) that he wasn't actually niave about the order rather he was/is just an jerk with NO CONCERN WHATSOEVER about the boys best interests.

This strategy MAY help get you MORE than just a slap on the wrist. You MAY even win supervised visitation or at least, a stern and very specific order preventing him from exposing the boys to OW at all with penalties for doing so (like loss of visitation or THEN supervised visitation).

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

Mr W-



I think I have this covered.... Earlier this year at one of the court hearings I had brought up about the OW being present when at shared kid functions/activities such as at the bowling alley, ball fields, etc... The judge stated that being in public places cannot be prevented but there still is to be no contact. This should be in the court transcripts. However, he can still play dumb... I think the judge would see through this and see it for what it is.

I have a little more info about last night's violation at the bowling alley. The boys were just asked if they wanted to go bowling, they were never told that OW and kids were going to be there. They actually all met up in the parking lot prior to going in. Their reactions... DS15 stated that he just focused on bowling and didn't pay attention to OW and her kids. DS12 stated that he was queasy. DS9 stated that it didn't bother him.

This has me really concerned. Tonight when WH brought boys home (I stayed in LR out of sight of WH- he will not just drop them off- but he stayed in the entry room). DS9 comes in to excitedly tell me that they are going on vacation with WH and OW and her kids in April to Virginia to watch a NASCAR race. I did not respond, though I wanted to scream, until after WH left. I talked with the boys that WH was wrong for telling them this. I was told that OW called WH this afternoon, and WH then asked DSs if they wanted to go while he was still on the phone with OW. I have a strong hunch that this was all pre-planned. I told DSs that their dad needed to talk with me, and possibly the law guardian and judge, before this decision can be made. Now, I will be the "bad guy" in all of this, because DS12/9 want to go; DS15 stated that he really doesn't want to go.

Can he take them out of state without my permission? with OW and her family, no less. We are still legally married. Also, I'm concerned that given WH's company will be closing within next few years, what is to stop him from going out of state and filing temp. custody in that state? I know this is extreme, but the thought is still there.....

WH's sense of entitlement is so off-the-wall-extreme.

I am so discouraged right now....

I spoke with atty this morning and relayed events of weekend and requested violation of visitation. His response was that his concern is at this point the law guardian may just be OK with OW and kids around boys when they are with WH at this point. He was going to call her and get back to me.

I again stated the concern of DSs not being in a supportive, positive, healthy environment knowing OW and her history, the fact that there is a Level 2 sex offendor (OW's relative) that lives within a half mile of her house, the fact that she started a relationship, subsequent adultery with WH, the fact that the way DSs have been raised is contradictory now to how WH is behaving, believing in to be "right".

And, I've been told that I don't want to look like the vindictive, scorned wife right now.... WTH does that mean???

some satisfaction at WH's expense...

Our auto insurance agent informed me that WH's policy was canceled due to non-payment. This policy's rates were extremely cheap due to having this policy for many years with same company. He cannot resume policy at this point but has to get another one, and the cheapest is at a much higher rate than what he is used to paying. AWWWWW... POOR WH (the violins are playing) I wonder if OW will start paying for his bills... and be happy supporting him (instead of the other way around, which is her MO so I'm told)

I was told this when I went in to pay my policy premium. The last time this happened in July, I felt sorry for WH and paid it then.... Before anyone does this I'll do it to myself first

Poor WH needs to learn how to budget, since he always relied on me to do that when we were together.

I also haven't heard anything back from my atty or DSs law guardian... AND, I'm still concerned about WH planning a vacation next April with DSs and OW and her kids out of state, without discussing with me or seeing what the results of the trial next month will be. I hear that NASCAR tix are expensive. Perhaps he should be using his $$ to pay for his auto insurance or saving some due to the eventual closing of his company.

Kateydid

Hi Kateydid,

I have to be honest, I'm not familiar with your situation. But I wanted to stop by and say hi and tell you that you are doing great.

Remember, if you are in Plan b, try to stop thinking or worrying about WH is doing, or what trouble they are getting into. I truly understand how hard it is, but it helps to protect you and heal you. It also keeps you away from the drama of the A....

One other thing. TRY to stay in today and leave tomorrow there. That way you don't need to worry needlessly about things that may or may not happen so far in the future.

BTW - the was so hard for me to learn to do, but so vital and helpful in the long run.

I would have to think that if he's driving around without insurance, which in my state can get you arrested, it would be child endangerment if he did it when he had the kids. Just a thought... Talk to your lawyer on this one...

Queenie-

Thanks for stopping in. No, I'm not in Plan B. I have talked with my atty about my needs right now and how Plan B would support them. However, due to Family Court trial next month, it is recommended that I not do this. Something along the lines of WH implying that I am never at DSs school events/activities, I just drop them off and pick them up, I'm not there to support them like WH is, I am just doing this to meet my needs and not DSs ...... this would not benefit my case unlike the support he has shown by committing adultery and moving out of our home, and going against court order and exposing DSs to OW and her kids during visitation .

I tell myself, and DSs, that we need to focus on today, not tomorrow or next week. We will deal with that when it is here. YES, SO HARD TO DO when so much is unknown!!! As my mom would tell me... "Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday."

This is where I struggle.... I want to hand it all to God, and it seems when I am about to, I pull it back out of fear, out of not wanting to let it go. I recently talked with IC about having that dream that becomes your living reality for many years, you get married, you have a career, you have children and you focus on your family/each other raising/supporting your family, etc.... and then it isn't there anymore. What if by letting that go, I don't ever have it, or another dream again? IC then says, the dream isn't reality, the reality is that it is still a dream.... Still processing that statement since that is when the session ended.

I don't know if this is a step forward, backward, or just is what it is. Yesterday, I took my wedding rings off, and I feel so naked and exposed without them. I know there was a thread on here about wedding rings, but was lost in the Great Crash of 2009. Anyways, I realized that with or without them on, I am still married to WH and it is in my heart. I took them off because they just don't seem special right now; they don't represent what they are meant to. Yes, they hold a lot of memories. I also realized that I kept wearing them because it upset WH and I wanted to show OW and everyone that I am still married to WH and I value that..... but I think this is part of holding me back from healing too. Who knows, I may just put them back on by the end of the week....

I continue to pray for recovery of my marriage and strength to get through this. I read here on another thread, just don't know whose to give credit to, a prayer to God that he chase, catch, and redeem WS. I pray for this too, as well as for chaos and obstacles in WHs adultery with OW. Is this selfish of me??? I would like to think that recent events are such, i.e., WH's divorce petition being dismissed, WH's auto insurance being cancelled due to non-payment and new policy costing much more. Perhaps, I need to look at the violations of visitation as obstacles for WH that he will need to acknowledge and take responsibility for when we go to trial, instead of me reacting and "living in them" daily... does this make sense?

Just venting...

WH and I went through mediation this past summer to work out visitation schedule. After several intense sessions we had come up with one, somewhat. There were a few things I didn't back down on either because it's not what the boys had requested or because it was not in their best interest. I never agreed to WH taking DSs on camping trip/vacation with OW and her kids, having OW/kids with WH on visitation, no overnights, and per DSs they want to split school vacations whereas WH wants alternate. DSs have stated that they don't want to not see either one of us for a week at a time, or be out of their home that long where their rooms and belongings are. THis has not been introduced into court yet, the judge has not looked it over. The law guardian is aware of this schedule, and is backing up the boys in what they want.

So here we are at our first official holiday... the plan, as agreed by us and written by the mediators, is that WH gets DSs from Wed-Th 3pm-3pm. They are at home from Th-F 3-3 then it is WH's weekend. Now last night DS15 states that WH told him yesterday that he was picking them up on TH at 3 and keeping them until Sunday. I explain again to all DSs the agreed upon schedule. This is how they want it, plans have been made based on this. My mom and younger brothers/sister are spending the night which DSs are looking forward to.

WH and I have joint custody, but I have sole physical custody. So, can I refuse WH the boys on Th reminding him to stick with what we agreed on in mediation? Can the boys refuse to go? The final mediation agreement was never signed by WH or I prior to the judge reviewing it, which the court trial has kept getting postponed. However, out of good faith we began following what we had agreed upon. Original visitation order states taht WH visits with DSs M-W after school at our home (this got to be too much for me and the boys), Th 3-6:30 at his apt, and every other weekend. With mediation we both agreed no more visits in our home, but T&Th with WH at his apt. Or technically, should I refer to the original visitation order that his time is 3-6:30 on Th afternoons, and since holidays haven't been officially discussed/determined in court this is how it will be. Why can't he just stick to what was discussed/agreed upon???

Oh, I find out through DS15 that WH texted him Friday afternoon to see if he wanted to go hunting with him on Sunday. Now, 2 1/2 weeks ago I requested that last Saturday (DS's cousins' Bday party) be exchanged for this past Sunday, knowing that WH would want to go hunting with DS. WH said no b/c he had plans for the boys. I explained this to DS15 and this weekend was rearranged so that they could go to their cousins' home to celebrate their birthday. DS15 had a voice mail from WH Sat. night asking again about hunting and to call him- he left the ph# for OW's house. The text and voice mail from WH stated "if you want to go with me just tell your mom that you are going and I will pick you up." I am so angry.... he thinks he can just make plans with the boys without asking/discussing with me, he can just rearrange the schedule to suit his needs???? Gee, then I should be able to do this when they are on visitation with WH....

And now, new concern with DS12... he made a statement that he had a thought the other day..... "Not that Dad would do this, but I thought what if he put tape over my mouth and tied my hands and feet up" I asked DS12 why he thought this, he kind of just laughed and said that he knew that it would never happen and didn't know why he thought it. If only WH could really see and hear how/what effects his actions have had, but of course I will be blamed for putting this thought in DS12's head. I need to pursue counseling for all DSs, as requested by law guardian, but refused by WH. This is one of the reasons why there is a trial next month.

Again, for all who have gotten this far... thanks for "listening" to my venting... it so does help to get this out... Now off to work...

((katey)) Special place in hell for your WH.

Yes, the boys can refuse to go. Tell them so.

Thanks for the hugs Ima.

Yes there is. I just wish that WH would go to he!! sooner than later, and leave DH with us....

Yes they can refuse... I actually spoke with my atty yesterday. WH has to follow the mediation agreement in good faith as we agreed upon. If not, I can refuse to let him take the boys as well as the boys can refuse to go- which they said they will do if their dad doesn't follow the schedule.

I also talked with atty about my fear that WH will take DSs with him to wherever OW and her kids go to celebrate Thanksgiving, since it doesn't seem to matter to him to violate the visitation order. IF he does, it will definitely not be in his favor when we return to court. Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself.... I just have to let the rope get longer and longer.

WH brings boys home yesterday evening from visitation and asks what's going on for Thanksgiving, the boys say I'm picking them up tomorrow for the night. I told him that was correct. WH tries to argue that he is getting them on Thursday.... I pull out the mediation agreement and read it to him, and ask him if he would like to read it himself... "No, I'll read mine when I get to my apt." OK, whatever. DS15 & DS12 did tell their dad they were following the schedule already agreed upon. YEAH! for DSs stating their wants to their dad. I don't think that WH was too happy when he left... and a Happy Thanksgiving to you too, dear hubby.

I'm sure this will put a kink in his plans per the schedule he thought he was going to have... He was probably going to be with OW on Thursday until picking the boys up in afternoon, then go to his parents. NO, this isn't the schedule that we agreed on. What gets me is that this was his proposed schedule he brought up in mediation. How forgetful waywards are!

Since it is Thanksgiving, the boys and I have been talking about what we are thankful and grateful for. This gets me to more thinking, and end up feeling sorry for myself and the boys.... but I just need to stop and look at what I have in front of me... I am blessed with wonderful, precious sons, family and friends. I just wonder if WH realizes this. We fought hard to get pregnant the "all natural way" with our sons (I am technically diagnosed as being infertile, LOL) I wonder if he remembers all the emotions/feelings we experienced. And, then it hits me as I realize, see and hear that WH is now doing more things with OW's kids than ours, things that we had talked about him doing with our sons, and that he has done in the past with them. It is heartbreaking, how can a dad replace his children like that??

OK, I did get sucked into that black hole of pity.... I need to go back to my thankful and grateful list.... as well as cleaning the house since Mom is coming over in a couple of hours to spend the next 2 days with us.

Hey Katy,

Don't know if you noticed the Poster StillHere has a thread and is going through some similiar issues as you. You may want to check out her thread, post and get some dialogue with her. You both could support each other through this shared experience.

You may want to discuss boundaries with your sons. I'm glad they stood up for the schedule they wanted, but in doing so, their young minds MAY have fears. Fears that Dad will abandon them as well. They need to understand that boundaries are healthy for them and that their father needs to respect them if HE is to earn a proper and respectful place in THEIR lives. That "respect" is a two way street and Dad can only walk all over their wishes (like NOT being around OW) if THEY allow it. Unfortunately, there is only so much YOU can do. YOU are in a tight spot. You badly want to protect them but you also want to protect their relationship with their father. You can't do both...it's a shame you can't but they are diametrically opposed goals due to the situation. Unfortunately, THEY have to step up, tell you and dad what THEY want and with your assistance and guidance set and enforce proper healthy boundaries.

Not a fun position to be in. You must also document to some extent these conversations with your sons such that if a charge of parental alienation is ever made against you, you'll have contemporeneous (timely dated) notes to which you can refer to refute such bogus claims.

Mr. Wondering

Don't know if I gave you this link yet or if you've seen it but FYI (about boundaries):

Link to boundaries vs. Manipulation/control � an open discussion

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1818654&page=1

Need help with how to proceed with the latest from WH....

WH served the boys' Scout Master with a subpoena earlier today to testify at the visitation/custody trial in 2 weeks. Several weeks ago, my atty informs me that this is who WH has accused me of having as a boyfriend- WTH??? He told his atty this who in turn told my atty and the boys' law guardian. This is so not true, why can't WH see that I am fighting for our marriage, that I want to recover with him and build our future together. I can't even fathom another relationship at this point, because I still love WH and don't want another one.

I have friends who are females, males and couples (all of whom who were mutual friends to both WH and I pre-A) who all have been supportive and great friends of my boys and I during the past 18 months. Is WH jealous?? The boys are all active in Scouts, they have been for years, and up until 2 months ago WH was very active with the boys and their activities. Actually, the Scout Master continues to contact WH regarding all Scout activities to keep him included. The Scout Master, and Asst. Scout Master (female friend- and no I'm not her girlfriend as WH might think with his current way of thinking) have both tried to have conversations with WH, but he has consistently rebuffed them.

My question is... do I now tell the Scout Master why WH is doing this so he isn't surprised in court? I never said anything to him when this first came out because I thought it was "nipped in the bud" when I responded to my atty.


UUUGGGGGHHHHHH.... FRUSTRATING!!!!!!

OH yeah WH served him at.... where else.... the bowling alley (you'll understand the sarcasm if you've read my entire thread).

Hmm, maybe you should ask someone else to tell him. Just in case they do one of those 'so, have you been in contact with him' things.

ask your attorney...

Most likely your attorney will talk to the Scout Master and bring it up as any such "conversation" you have with him will, perhaps, make it appear you two have something to hide.

You just keep your distance from Scout Master.

I had one BH friend here whose WW had a PI staking out his house (she was off living with OM). The PI recorded a woman arriving at his house, playing cards with him and then retiring to the back room for an hour or so. Now I happen to know that this BH was consoling a woman that was going through a similiar marital crisis herself (which WAS a very bad idea) and he took her into the "backroom" of the house to show her Marriage Builders.com. They merely farted around the discussion boards for a bit and then returned to the kitchen. Fortunately, the PI kept copious notes of the timetable and such timetable matched up perfectly with the computer logs/web history he was fortunate enough to still be able to access and print off. He was able to dispute the circumstantial evidence very convincingly. But the woman friend DID have to testify too that nothing, absolutely nothing was going on.

I gave that to show you this is a common ploy of WS's. In my opinion, they do this to accomplish the following:

1. They think it "legitimizes" their affair relationship. If you do it/did it too...you certainly can't "judge him" anymore.

2. It gives him subterfuge to confuse outsiders with...well our marriage was over ...we both kinda dated before we should or even...SHE was dating HIM (Scout Master) FIRST. Making things a MESSY he said/she said which people just tend to wash their hands and not want any involvement.

3. He's NOT worried much about today...he's being farsighted a bit here and hoping that even the accusation will give him a way to rewrite the marital and divorce history ONE DAY (ESPECIALLY WITH THE CHILDREN).

4. IF he can paint you into the same boat as him...he will feels he can thereby manipulate you into:

a. Shutting up
b. Being "accepting"
c. Being "a grown up about things"
d. Being friendly
e. Coparenting with him

[edit to add] f. DIVORCING HIM and settling quickly and quietly (I forgot...you are in NY and he needs grounds for divorce...that is totally why he is doing this). How much proof of adultery do you really need in NY? Likely just a preponderance of evidence so he is fishing for such "preponderance"

5. Now it would certainly be better for him if you really were committing adultery with this guy. However, in his wayward mental state he SOOOOO needs to justify and rationalize what he's doing to you and the children that in his mind he JUMPED to the conclusion you were cheating with the scout master with NO PROOF WHATSOEVER. Maybe he saw a knowing glance (which was because the scout master knows he's a cheating jerk). As farfetched as the accusation is to YOU and certainly the ScoutMaster...your WH (and the OW) very likely BELIEVE IT'S TRUE. To them...this is NOT a made up accusation. Even if you dispute it successfully, he MAY bring this up for years as he's convinced he's right because he NEEDS to be right.

Thus...getting the ScoutMaster's deposition or testimony is a GOOD THING. Documenting and completing destroying the accusations is important.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - IF and WHEN your attorney takes your husband's testimony in a couple of weeks be sure to tell him to get all the facts of the adultery on the record. This may be your ONE and ONLY shot at actually confronting him EVER and documenting the facts and circumstances of the divorce for posterity.. If this ends up going the divorce route, in time, you will quite likely end up coming to some settlement agreement. There won't likely be depositions and/or court testimony. The whole court thing is set up to achieve settlement. Absent such documentation...in time, the waywards have a way to twisting the history to suit their needs. They still TRY to do this even if you have a document proving otherwise...but it's not as easy for them.

Well I think there needs to be a new movie made, instead of the "40 Year Old Virgin" it should be titled the "40 Year Old Naive Married Woman Whose Husband Is Committing Adultery".

I just feel that WH has a basket of rocks that he carries with him and when he sees that I'm just not reacting to him and his OW, or not doing what he wants, or even just disappearing he throws one of his rocks and hits me straight on. Will the ripple effect ever get back to him??

I feel like WH is trying to take away my friends, my support system by his accusations and actions. I guess as a BW, I'm supposed to stay home, pining away for him, and when he does show up bringing the boys home I'm supposed to roll out the red carpet, with harps playing in the background, singing his praises and being so grateful that WH is in my life.

I am truly amazed at the extent that WH is going to, I never would have imagined this from WH. Perhaps his soulmate OW is pressuring him so that he'll move in with her.... this has been the longest time (20 months) she has gone without living with a man.

I was wanting to get on here and post how my Thanksgiving went during this quiet weekend with DSs on visitation with WH, but instead it is about WH's latest stunt. Also, now I believe my Thanksgiving holiday will be coming back to bite me in the worst possible way.

Mr. W and Cat, I so wished I was able to read your posts to weigh my options before talking with a friend, who has been through a divorce/custody, and following her advice.

My friend advised me to get a copy of the subpoena to give my atty on Monday, and also to tell the scout master why he is being subpoenaed. She felt the truth is the best thing at this point. So that is what I did. I went to the Scout Masters home got the copy and talked with him about the subpoena, why he was served. I have no idea if anyone saw me, but now if I am asked at the trial if I have been at his home I will have to say yes. I also apologized that he was being pulled into this situation and expressed that I hoped it didn't affect his role/interactions with DSs. He was amazed at WHs motives as well, and doesn't understand either as his attitude towards WH has not changed, as he said what is going on between WH and I is our business, and tries to talk with WH but is rebuffed. Out of all of my friends in my support circle, he is the one who knows the least about my and WH's situation because I was never inclined to tell him just given his role in DSs lives, the fact that he is a male (he is divorced, but not single as he has a GF who lives out of state- WH knows this and even met his GF last December... which to think that WH thinks I would become an OW in another relationship, knowing the gut-wrenching, debilitating pain it causes... is too much for me to grasp) and because we all live in a "gossipy" small town. As I've stated before it's like 3 months ago a switch occurred in WH and he has rebuffed all of our mutual friends.

The subpoena is dated for the end of October, a week before the divorce trial. Why didn't scout master get subpoena'd into divorce trial if WH is trying to say that I'm also committing adultery? Why did he wait 2 weeks before custody/visitation hearing to serve the subpoena?

Now on to Thanksgiving... In talking with IC and realizing/knowing I was stuck in how WH and I and family celebrated past holidays, and traditions and the self-pity and depression that goes along with that, it was recommended that I need to create new traditions. We discussed inviting my friends, especially those that have been supportive and that I am grateful and thankful to have in my and DSs lives, to share in dessert. I was hesitant because I have alot of trust issues and opening up to others letting them into my space, but I did email out the invite at the last minute (Wednesday morning) thinking that no one would show because they all had their own plans, but at least I could say that I tried to start a new tradition moving forward. However, guess who did show up for about 45 minutes... yup the scout master. Also my friend, the [censored]'t scout master, with 3 of her 5 children (her husband and 2 older children stayed home to clean up). She stayed about 3 hours. It was so nice to hear all the laughter and feel the positive, happy environment.... it has been so long since it has been like this. And now, it is going to come back and hurt me and DSs in the long run when I go back to court in 2 weeks.

I am so NAIVE with a capital N... I just keep telling myself that the truth is what will prevail... not the disgusting spins that WH tries to put on situations to justify his actions. I hope to have the opportunity to testify in court how much I love my husband and that I want to recover our marriage, and he won't be able to get up and leave and not hear this. Maybe I need to spend the $$ I don't have to have IC (who is also the family court psychologist) testify that I want to recover my marriage, that I am holding on to that.

I am hoping to get in and see my atty to discuss this latest event and strategize the upcoming trial/hearing. I also hope to find out if I need to have anyone come in and testify. When I last met with atty, he did not feel that I needed anyone to testify. He felt that WH and his atty would have his OW testify and my atty felt that OW's testimony along with my documentation would speak for itself as to what is in DSs best interest. I'm not so sure anymore... I also definitely need to find out if OW is testifying, if not she should be subpoenaed to do so.

In divorce trial, WH admitted under oath that he was having "sexual relations" with OW, but not until after he moved out of our home. YEAH... RIGHT.

Wow...can you hear my teeth rattling in fear of your trial date? Good luck, you can only pray that he (1) wasn't having you followed and (2) doesn't ask scoutmaster how many times he's seen you since D Day. Good luck!

Catperson-

The more I think on this and what WH is doing and insinuating in his quest to justify, to get me to keep quiet and go along with his adultery the angrier I get....

If he's had me followed then so be it, I have nothing to hide, I have done nothing wrong.

As far as time spent with scout master since D-day, 99% has been at Scout activities. And, a majority of this with WH present, up until 3 months ago when WH stopped attending DSs scout activities. And if one looks at "alone" time with sm, WH has spent more alone time with him. Also, DS12 is friends with sm's son and they have done things together outside of scouts, including weekly bowling and school team bowling. At bowling activities, I do socialize with sm and my other friend because I am shunned by WH and his parents and I refuse to be the BW that sits in a corner and not talk to anyone. As far as my "alone" time with sm it has been 4 times- 2 related to scout activities (oh and 1 of those times his mom was present and I ended up talking more to her about the agency I work for. I learned that she and her husband founded the social club for disabled adults that is still running today.) And, then there was Thanksgiving dessert with other adults present (I printed out copy of email sent to my friends to give to my atty); and the other evening (his DS13 was present) when I got the copy of subpoena, apologized for WH's actions, and discussed that I hope this doesn't affect the interactions with DSs at their scout activities or DS12's friendship with his son.

When we're at the shared children's activities, I am going to be under the microscope and how am I supposed to act? Like I've always done as far as socializing? or ignore sm (and wouldn't that make me look like I am hiding something?

I know.... I should tell WH about all the times that I've taken DSs' to their various friends' homes and vice-versa and I've been alone with their fathers- single and married, and the number of times we've chatted over a cup of coffee.

I have friends who are willing to testify about my committment to my marriage and my wanting to recover my marriage. The asst sm is also shocked and willing to further testify that there is nothing inappropriate going on and she is present at 95% of the same scout activities.

I would never do anything to put DSs through anymore pain and confusion than what they are going through now. Nor would I cause this type of pain and upset in the relationship of sm and his GF, or anyone else's relationship.

The "search" that WH is on trying to fill that empty spot he feels he has within him has truly over-ridden his integrity, morals, values, his core-being..... and it is just so sad and heart-breaking to watch this happen to my DH.

Katey,

Don't sweat it....just don't put yourself in compromising "circumstantial" situations with the SM (or any male for that matter). Not just because of this case but because you are still married and very much in need of having your emotional needs met it's really not a safe place to put yourself.

Also...don't trust your real life friends and their advice. Shoot, don't even trust me as I'm just a tax lawyer and NOT a divorce lawyer. Trust your lawyer especially when it comes to legal matters. A phone call to the Scout Master would have been better than going over to his home...alone. (It's not like you knew his son was going to be there). Again, what's done is done. But think next time..WWWD...."what would Mr. Wondering do?"

Had a thought about SM's testimony...

Your attorney MAY choose, when it's his turn to question the SM, to ask the SM to recount the time he's spent with your WH. Go through THEIR (WH and SM) entire relationship and then ask the SM if he is having a same sex affair with your WH.

It's a humorous way to dismiss the foolish notion that just because your kids are interconnected and you see the guy often at scout meetings and bowling doesn't mean you have some kind of deeper adulterous secret relationship. Your WH is just as "enmeshed" with SM as you are so he MUST be sleeping with him too. (your attorney might oughta tell SM he MAY ask him that question and why such that your FAMILY friend is not offended)

Mr. Wondering

((katey))
I agree with Mr. W.
Tell them they can give you or SM a lie detector test. But for now, stay away from SM. You need to not be seen in any situations that might compromise your case.
How are the boys holding up?

Mr W-

Yes, I completely understand this and I do see how easily it would be for EN's to be met by another male, esp. after all of this time. For now though I am doing OK just having some met by family & friends, and through counseling with IC talking through the unmet needs/emotions/feelings.

LOL... I like this, and will do just that. Thanks for the smile.

I talked with my atty yesterday. I told him about SM getting subpoena, my questions with it dated a month ago but just getting served now, and if we need to meet to strategize.

I mentioned to him:
He laughed. He also stated that unless I was having a torrid, illicit affair this just does not matter. He said that SM's testimony will just prove what an [censored] WH is being and make WH's noose a little bit tighter around his neck.... He also stated that at this point WH and his atty have to prove that the OW is a person with good judgement, has the DSs best interest at heart, and can be a positive influence in DSs lives because she is specifically named in the current custody/visitation paperwork. It will not be good for WH and OW if she doesn't testify, and if she does my atty will love to question her about her good values, morals, judgement that an OW has so much of. He also stated again that I do not need to have anyone testify on my behalf, my testimony along with documentation and lg's recommendations are all that is necessary. We are not meeting prior to trial in 2 weeks. This has me nervous/anxious.

I will be dropping off copies of my documentation next week to his office for his review though.

Ima-

I would so be willing to take a lie detector test.

As far as the boys.... they seem to be doing well. They continue to do well in school and their extra-curricular activities. They all had awesome report cards, all on the High Honor Roll. They are all practicing for their upcoming holiday concerts. We have our own Brass Band here; DS9-trumpet, DS12-alto & tenor saxophone, DS15- trombone & tuba. DS15 has recently performed in an All-State music concert playing the tuba, he and another classmate have been chosen out of his entire class to participate in monthly youth leadership meetings at local college, and he was the one chosen to represent his school to attend a weekend youth leadership conference next year. I am so proud of them!!!

But... I also see what WH and his actions have done and are doing.

They have become more physical with each other; i.e., responding with punches if they don't like what a brother did to them. This is new in the last year... not sure if it has to do with current sitch, or this is natural for boys to react like this.

I have to throw this in in the "WH is such a wayward [censored]" category: WH brought them home on Thanksgiving and tells me that "I don't want them at 3 tomorrow, but at the normal time of 6:30 for the weekend." It was decided on at mediation he would get them at 3 on Friday due to one of his older brothers and family coming in for the day and dinner. This is done each year and WE did this every year. Maybe WH didn't want to spend this time with his family, because this brother and his wife do not support WH's actions; or he had plans with OW. But either way... how sad.

Yesterday DS15 had school bowling match which OW's children participate in as well as SM's son. I arrive and I see WH sitting with OW, his parents, and her parents all rooting for DS15, and her kids. I am pi$$ed b/c of latest accusations against me, but yet he is laughing it up, flaunting his adultery and there I am feeling awkward and ignoring SM when he says "hi" to me. And, yes I did what I said I wouldn't do- retreated to a spot where no one was and didn't talk to anyone.

DS15 and I leave and through talking with him I learn that WH and OW came in together. DS15 says "it doesn't bother me, I just ignore it". I think DS15 tries to ignore "it" because it does bother him.... which I did ask him straight out if that was the case. He said yes, and I told him that this is what he needs to tell lg, that he needs to tell his true feelings. I also assured him that he shouldn't say something out of fear of making someone mad at him. I told him that I love and support him no matter what.

As I'm helping DS12 with homework, he tells me that WH talked with them about court hearing in 2 weeks and talking with lg before then. WH told them that he wants them to spend time with OW/children when he has them on visitation. DS12 also states that WH told them how much fun WH had and they all seemed to have when they all went bowling together (during the violation of visitation)... I'm so glad WH feels that it is all about how he feels and that he should be integrating DSs into his new life with OW/kids. Shouldn't it be that OW/kids need to be integrated into WH and DSs visitation instead of vice-versa!!!!

I am just feeling that WH is so manipulating and pressuring DSs right now. I am also feeling that if DSs say that "it doesn't bother me", that OW/kids will be allowed to be present during visitation at WH's apt. but as well as at her home whenever he wants. I can see it now... DS's will be taking the bus to her home after school, eating dinner there, etc....

I am facing the realization that there will have to be an integration, but I can still fight for a slow integration. The boys never having to ride the bus to her home, but always to his apt. or his parents.

I will fight tooth and nail for absolutely no overnights with OW/kids. And, if I "play" WH's game of well she has a BF and DSs are around him so why can't I? then OK, fine dear WH... let's have it put in the visitation/custody order that for either one of us there will be no overnights with the opposite sex while DSs are present.

And shouldn't it matter that WE ARE STILL MARRIED???

Grrrrr...
Your WH is such a POS. I'm so sorry katey....

Any way you can involve other people in this? Like bring a friend to witness what he's doing? Bring someone who WILL say something to WH's family, defend your sons?

My friends are involved with their kids in another sport afterschool.

The other evening was DS15's holiday concert which was the same day as visitation with WH. I told DS15 that he would need to take all of his concert apparel with him to school to take to WH's so he can get ready there. DS15 wanted nothing to do with this; he asked me why he couldn't just come home after school, do his HW, eat dinner, shower and get ready. I told him it was visitation and that he would need to discuss this with his dad. DS15 texted, and left voice mail, to WH stating that that he wasn't going to his apartment after school but was coming home.

I looked at DS15's cell yesterday and WH texted a reply of "DS15 are you going home or coming to my place this afternoon?" DS15 replied "home". WH texts back "K, is there some other reason you don't want to come to my place other than getting ready? Luv u Bud. C U later" DS15 did not reply. HMMMM.... WH's response has me thinking as to what he was trying to get at about another reason......

Now, on to WH's subpoena of Scout Master insinuating that I and SM have a relationship.... SM has every right to retain an atty, file defamation of character, as well as request that WH pay for his lost wages when he appears in court and all legal fees. I relayed this to SM (by phone), but he is not going to do this as he is not that angry about this, though he is angry that someone he thought of as a friend would do this.

Another thing to add to Mr. Wondering's above statement.... I was reminded that WH has spent the night with Scout Master together in a tent (2x) and lean-to (1x) on scouting events.... LOL

OK, all joking aside about current sitch.... I'm starting to feel uncomfortable...

I received a call a little while ago from SM who stated that OW just pulled into his driveway, backed out and left. Most likely to see if I'm at SM's house, since DSs are with WH for visitation. Does this mean she has also been driving by my home, checking on me to see if I'm home??? I have such a "yukky" feeling in my stomach.

Hi kateydid-

I can certainly understand your unease at this information. I think the best course of action is to make sure that you document this and any other "irregularities" that occur. Then, contact your attorney with this information.

Also, when you aren't home, I'd have your neighbors keep an eye on any car that saunters by your house-write down the license number, make and color of those cars as well. It can't hurt to have your neighbors watching out for you.

I think the crazies in affairland really think that they have some kind of "smoking gun" with the twisted belief that you and SM are having a R. Somehow they seem to think that this may give them an advantage in court. It's crazy but then again, waywards make no sense.

Thanks, JT.

Unfortunately, I live in a very rural area (still can only get dial-up... ugghh!) and I don't have any neighbors close by that would be able to notice any cars out of the ordinary. And if it was WH's vehicle it wouldn't be that odd to see.

I do wish I had one of those camcorders that some hunters use to scope out an area over a long period of time.


Crazy is right... there are still days that I wake up and think in disbelief that I am in this situation... and it's been a year and a half.

What's even more upsetting is that WH, OW and her kids show up at DSs weekly bowling league for the last 1/2 hour. DSs were home this weekend so it was a non-visitation wknd with WH. And I think of what WH is accusing me of and I just get so angry. DSs hardly went by WH, except for DS9, they stayed by me. My 2 friends were there, whose sons bowl, and yes one was the SM and the other was the [censored]'t SM (female). I felt like I was under a microscope the whole time, and as such I would ignore my friends at times.

My friend, [censored]'t SM, told me this later in the day when we spoke by phone. She understood why I did this, however she also said that I need to stop giving WH such control over me. You know, I read about boundaries, manipulation/control; I discuss this with others and I understand it all. BUT... it is so hard to not let myself fall into this trap. I was doing well until the last week, seeing the lengths that WH is going to has made me take more than the typical "2 steps backwards".

When we left the bowling alley, there is WH with his "new" family just calling out to DSs "good bye boys, I love you" as the door is closing. He just doesn't get it... and yeah I have a bit of that little (OK not so little) green jealous monster coming out.

Maybe you could ask friends and acquaintances to make it harder for him to keep doing this. Ask them to ask him what he thinks he's doing...basically call him out. Do another exposure, if you will. Tell these people how much it's hurting your kids to have him keep shoving his 'new' family in their faces. Ask for help.

Looking for some input...

I'm making up my list of what I feel needs to be in the visitation order that will be clarified further at next weeks trial.

If anyone has any other ideas please add to my list. Also, if you feel that some are so unlikely to happen, please let me know, but I am shooting for the moon. I know integration with OW/her kids will most likely be a possibility so this list is based on that premise. But I can pray the judge will do something with all the violations of visitation as well as hope that OW will be called to testify and her lack of good judgement and true colors will show. Maybe, WH and OW will be recommended to have an evaluation done.

1. DSs to be evaluated to see where they're at with all of this (in July DSs law guardian recommended family counseling to achieve this, but WH flat out refused which is why the judge ordered a trial)
2. Slow integration- such that WH can't be with OW/her kids the majority of his visitation.
3. ABSOLUTELY NO OVERNIGHTS.
4. DS's will never be alone with OW and/or her kids. I have valid concerns with her D14 with past events in her life and the court system being involved. Law guardian and my atty are aware of this and are looking into it- not sure if this can be introduced into our trial.
5. OW will never transport DSs anwhere.
6. DSs will not ride the bus to OW's home (they have stated they don't want to do this).
7. NO out of state travel.
8. For now no holiday time spent with OW/kids present (I'm thinking of upcoming Christmas holiday which is right after trial).
9. School vacations to be divided as per DSs wishes- they want to split them F-Wed evening & Wed evening-Su. They have stated they do not want to not see either one of us for a whole week or be away from their home/bedrooms for a whole week. WH is against this.
10. DS15 is not to be used as a babysitter (again concerns with being alone with OW's D14).
11. If DSs are spending overnights beyond the weekend, WH has to be there (WH works third shift and would need to take time off).

Anything else?

Just thought of another one...

12. WH is responsible for picking up DSs and bringing them home for all of his visitation time. WH is insistent that I need to provide 1/2 the transportation. I think that he is the one who left and abandoned his family, so he needs to provide all transportation for HIS visitation.

More to add....
13. Any financial obligations to extra-curricular activities (i.e., weekly bowling league, birthday parties, school events) is the responsibility of WH when he has them on his visitation weekends. I will take care of the weekends that DSs are home. As it is now, I am responsible for all.
14. OW and her kids not to be at DSs extra-curricular activities, unless it is a shared activity with her kids. This past Saturday, WH shows up at DSs bowling league with OW and her kids and there was no reason for them to be there. This is probably too off the wall to enforce....

Anything else I should add??

Funny story.... Friday night when leaving DS9's scout pack mtg., his scout master backs into my driver's side door. (Huge dent, I filed claim with his ins. company, now just waiting for them to call me back to set up adjuster appt. and get new car door installed.) I call my mom to let her know and instead of asking if we're OK, she says..... "You need to stay away from these scout masters."

As if I didn't have a full enough plate! But as my friend and I discussed, perhaps this is God's way of taking my complete focus off of WH, OW, and the trial.....

Katey, your list looks good to me, but I'm no lawyer.
Regarding your mom's comment about scout masters, I can see where it's coming from. Right when you first told us about your H's suspicions about SM, we warned you that you should stay back, for your own sanity.
If you read back at your posts since then, there are more than a few mentions of encounters/thoughts about SM. Clearly, he's growing into a close friend, and under normal circumstances, that wouldn't be a big deal, but right now, you should think about ways to protect yourself from an unintentional EA.
You don't want to give your WH ANY reason to justify his behavior.
Good luck, my friend. It is going to be tough for the forseeable future, I'm afraid.

I'm a tax attorney in Michigan...not a divorce attorney in New York, so I don't know much about these "lists" and there enforceability/achievability in New York.

Your attorney will likely word them the right way. Seems you'll likely have to reword instances where you say "the OW" to any person, NOT related by blood.

For example, "there are to be no overnight guest during visitation that are not related by blood to the children".

If you do refer to OW she'll likely be referred to as his "paramour" - which means "an illicit lover". It's the legal term for it though some have disliked the term since it has "lover" in the definition.

Hopefully, your attorney has some extra standard one's to add to the list, such as, whether you two are going to file a Joint 2009 and beyond Tax Return and how to go about doing such.

Are you taking the boys to church on Sundays? Continuance of religious education is a priority to the courts and thus, may give you an opportunity to get them away from WH on Sunday mornings early even on his visitaion weekends (presuming HE won't take them).

Anyway...your lawyer will hopefully come up with more. Shoot for the moon...with his behavior in violation of the judge's orders, it's possible you'll get whatever you ask for. The judge can't punish him much monetarily nor will he/she take away visitation, so he/she MAY look for other ways to slap him silly for disrespecting his/her orders.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I doubt very much OW will take the stand. Wayturds are very afraid of the light and having to espouse their wayturdness out in the open in a courtroom is just too much for them to handle. Expect the skank to hide unless your attorney can get her on the stand. I also hope you can admit to the court record your concerns about OW's daughter. I'd certainly have concerns about my pubicest son's spending alone time around OW's daughter. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Ima- I absolutely understand and agree. Remaining faithful to my husband and marriage is one boundary that I can honestly say I am able to keep in place without difficulty or wavering. I know I need to continue to care for and protect that.

Mr. W-

Thanks for wording clarification.
Double

I pray that the judge will look at it this way- WH disrespected judge's orders by violating visitation. My biggest fear is that the judge will say well it has been a year so there shouldn't be an issue with having OW around.


I hope so too. There is so much with this one. I fear that information from other family court hearing involving accusations by daughter against a former fiancee (that were then later recanted by both OW and her daughter) will not be admissable. I relayed this info to my atty and to the boys' LG because of the concerns this raises.

Also to add to the drama... I was told that OW has been in frequent contact with former fiancee, and I was even asked if WH and OW had ended their relationship. I can only pray for this. I do want to see WH fall, and hit the bottom hard, but I do not want to be near this and I especially do not want DSs anywhere near this. Time will tell.....

Well... Monday's court trial looks to be adjourned. I received a call earlier telling me that my atty had emergency surgery today and that a request was put in to the court for an adjournment to a later date.

I pray that God creates chaos and turmoil in WH's adultery with OW... Is this what these adjournments are? This trial was originally scheduled for Oct. but keeps getting adjourned. Will this add pressure to their relationship?

Can't hurt. Good luck.

New trial date for visitation/custody is in February... 2 months from now... I'm waiting for the fallout from WH regarding this.

I feel that I have been given an opportunity by God to do something with these 2 months... but what???? How can I use this to my advantage?

I do believe this will create pressure in WH's affair since his visitation with DSs has to be without OW/kids present, though he has violated this, so who knows what the next 2 months will bring. I can only pray for continued chaos and turmoil in their affair.

Another concern I have is with Christmas... WH picks boys up at noon and will be going to his parents home ( I will miss this this year- I have gone there as well for the last 18 years). But, with how "chummy" OW and MIL are, what if MIL invites OW/kids to come to her home for Christmas? Yes it is a violation, but WH doesn't seem to care about these, nor have any of these been addressed by the judge.

I would go, too, and bring my camera. Great evidence that they are violating his agreement. For now, that is STILL your family.

I wish more BWs would get mad and stubborn. I truly don't think WHs expect the little wife to stand up for herself. Honestly, I think it makes you look more attractive. As long as you can do it with grace.

I'm not invited this year... very hard for DS9 to understand.

WH can so get under my skin.... I know it's because I let WH... but still..

Why can't Wayward's show even one ounce of compassion?? My driveway is an incline, a year ago a natural spring has "sprung" at the top. It runs down the driveway and freezes, and with recent winter weather the driveway has become an ice shelf... and the water continues to run. So I decided to tackle this with an ice chopper, pick axe, shovel and 100 pounds of rock salt. I chopped through ice, dug a trench and got this accomplished. Several hours of very hard work and my body is still screaming from what I put it through. YAY for me.

At one point, WH arrives with boys to get snow boards. I would like to think he would have had some compassion to offer to help.... but none, nada, zip!!! I just don't understand this. He is out having fun instead. DS9 came home later and didn't have any homework done.

And tonight.... WH returns my call informing him of DS15 induction into Honor Society ceremony later this week. I asked WH to get hay for bedding for HIS hunting dog that he abandoned as well when he moved out a year ago. He responds with an arrogant laugh (I don't know how else to explain it), but I did remind WH that it was HIS dog. I doubt he will.

And lately I just can't help but to think that maybe it's time to throw in the towel... but I still find myself holding on this ride for dear life... idk.

As far as court trial... WH never notified Scout master of trial being adjourned to February. I did give him a heads up, and also suggested (b/c I'm angry and feeling vindictive) taht he show up at courthouse and act surprised that it was cancelled. Then forward WH a bill for lost wages/time off from work.

Is WH responsible for informing scout master of next court trial?? Will he need to deliver another subpoena?

Just venting.....

Did you specifically talk to your FIL and ask him if you were invited?

Give your kids disposable camera's to take with them ostensibly so they can get some pictures of the festivities to share with you since you can't go.

Also...can't your attorney file a "show cause" motion...petitioning WH to come to court and "show cause" why he keeps violating the order and, again ostensibly, to get the judge to instruct him in no uncertain terms to stop violating the judge's orders. Even if you just file the motion prior say, next monday, the hearing won't take place until after Christmas but WH might straighten up on Christmas at the direction of his attorney.

Mr. Wondering

Cat-
If MIL doesn't invite me, then FIL will not either.

Mr. W-
I love the idea of disposable cameras for the boys, they will each get one to take with them. I did talk with my boys and told them that if OW and her kids were present during Christmas and the weekend while with their dad they should call me and I will come and pick them up.

Unfortunately my att'y is unavailable due to recovery from surgery until after holidays.

Yesterday DS15 had school bowling match and I get there to see last 1/2 hour. Of course, WH/OW, IL's, and BIL were all there in a little group together. At first I stayed on the far end to watch DS15 and then I got angry and territorial within a few minutes. So, I walked over to the lanes where DS15 was bowling and stood right in front of all of them.

I am also in such a "funk" due to WH's response regarding his dog (few posts back). I thought nothing is supposed to come between a man and his dog (aren't there songs about this??); except I guess the OW, maybe she's replacing the dog in his life. He certainly has walked away from everything....

Dreading Christmas Day... not sure how to get through it once the boys leave at noon to be with WH for the weekend. This will be the first time ever that I haven't spent all of Christmas with DSs. I have family that I can travel to, but it will be the longest hour ride to get there.

Perhaps you could send WH an email telling him he has until Jan 2nd or so to come get HIS dog or you will be taking it to the pound. Indicate that if he knows he doesn't want it now to let you know and you will list the dog on Craig's list so the dog has a chance of being adopted out. Be sure to indicate that he's out come January...either way.

Then, if the boys get upset, you just put it on your WH (where it belongs)...."Boys...your father doesn't want his dog any more, it's not my dog and I don't want to take of it". Just maybe the boys will indicate that they will completely take care of him ... but tell them to wait to see if WH steps up and takes it before you'll allow them to keep him.

In the alternative, the boys could just take the dog with them on Christmas with directions that the dog is not allowed back. WH can do what he wants with him. If the dog comes back anyway...get a stack and leave him outside and email WH telling him his dog is freezing to death outside and he better come get him or you'll call the pound. The dog is NOT reentering your home.

Mr. Wondering

I heard some "intel" from WH's atty to WH, but I don't know exactly what WH asked his atty (I can only infer). I would like some interpretations of this to see if I'm not too far off the mark with my interpretation.... the why WH called his atty, and what to do if WH follows atty's advice...

But, first thing's first...

Mr. W- Great advice and I would love to be able to do this, but...

The boys and I discussed this last night and they are heartbroken (there were tears involved to pull at my heart strings) to think that we would get rid of it because WH doesn't want it. There was a comment made by DS12 that "not only did Dad leave us, but he left his dog, that's not right" NO, DS12 it's not right. Such a loaded statement from DS12. DS12 then says that if he could he would get in WH's face and give him the finger. We then discussed respect and I had all I could do to keep a straight face b/c I kept picturing DS12 doing this... MY BAD!!! All 3 DSs stated they would take care of it, they also want to try and housebreak this dog (purebred beagle). DS15 even has secured the use of a dog crate from a friend. I'm just like "WOW, they've really been thinking about this". So, after the holidays we will try this first.

Now what I heard;

"Hi, WH, the trial is pushed back so far because the court calendar is filled up with other hearings. February is the earliest. You should talk with her (me) about setting the boys up with counseling to get them introduced to this other woman, umm "OW's name". Case law supports this and you don't want to continue to give her (me) too much control in this."

Interpretations please.

But I must comment on the getting the boys introduced to OW... WH has certainly violated visitation to do this over in past months... so I wonder if his atty heard about these from law guardian and my atty, and said something to him about these. Since his last direct violation, there have been none in 3 weeks(there are still phone calls, texts to OW while boys are on visitation and having OW with him at boys' functions during "non-visitation")

How should I respond if WH asks about the counseling for the boys? This is exactly what DSs Law Guardian recommended in July at the last hearing, but WH adamently refused this.... because it was my "ploy at reconciling".

Mr. W, I even said to myself "WWWD?".... LOL.

If you have a recording of this conversation I would get it to the Law Guardian and demonstrate that the attorney and WSTBX are in contempt and treating the well-being of these boys as something to be manipulated and leveraged for control.

Merry Christmas!! The day I dreaded is almost done, however not without incident....

KaylaAndy- I don't have a recording and I don't think it would be in my best interest to give this info out to my atty or LG due to how I came across this info.

Today's incident.... DSs were with me until noon today, then WH picked them up and actually has DSs until Sunday evening as it is his visitation weekend.

DS12 and I were texting; I initiated inquiring how he was since he really didn't want to go with WH. Through our texting I discovered that after leaving our home, WH took DSs to OW's house for a couple of hours. The boys didn't even go to open presents with WH, they were going to do that later. Apparently, WH has all DSs presents/stockings at his parent's home instead of at his apt. What is up with this???

One of DS12's last texts were "we're at OW's, please don't pick us up or call dad, please don't".

I am so torn... this is such a violation of visitation... will be contacting atty's office Monday however I do believe he is out through the New Year due to recovery from surgery and the holidays. But I will leave a message.

My next concern is that WH has the boys New Years Eve 10 am through New Year's Day 10 am. If he brought the boys to OW's home today, he most certainly will have no qualms about doing this New Years Eve.

So, what to do? Do I contact WH regarding today's violation? I have held back thus far and it has been hard. Also, given his atty's comments to WH (seek counseling for boys to prepare for introduction to OW) I don't think she is aware of DS's exposure to OW by WH.

Also, what should I say to DS12, as well as DS15, DS9, regarding this situation?

Thanks.

Looks like you've no choice but to wait on your attorney. Your boys don't want you to raise a fuss so you're left hoping the judge will smack him down later.

It would be nice if you could get your attorney to file some kind of motion...and requesting "supervised visitation" as your WH seems unable and unwilling to respect the previous clearly written court order.

You really want your attorney to be aggressive here. He MAY want to play nice guy facilitating an amicable divorce (and divorce settlement). Trust me...that's what the typical attorney thinks is in your & your children's best interest. He won't go aggressive unless you really really convince him that is what you truly want. Right now...he may be being a bit parental and taking the nicer route thinking he's really saving you a lot of grief (and maybe money) in the long run. Courts are a frustrating place to take grievances. Typically NO ONE comes out satisfied. Attorney's know that and a "friendly" one will try to take you down the path of appeasement to spare you that frustration. Just remember...he represents YOU and YOU sometimes have to really really really insist and give him explicit direction of what you want. Telephone calls and meetings everyday...will end up costing you a ton. But a motion in this instance is necessary, if only to get the judge to smack down your husband and give him explicit orders to keep the boys away from OW. I'm fairly certain the judge will give him one more chance to obey. I just hope the judge will be more clear about what he expects and THEN, WH can either comply or face MUCH MORE serious consequences on the legal front down the road.

Good luck and do something for yourself this weekend. It's personal recovery weekend...NOT ice cream and tv weekend.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - MAKE YOURSELF SOME PLANS FOR NEW YEARS (friends and family)

I just talked with my boys and it�s worse than what I was told yesterday�. WH took DS�s to OW�s house to open their gifts from WH (and most likely her name was on the tags as well). This was confirmed by DS15 and DS12; DS9 stated they opened their gifts at WH�s apt. DS9 is now lying and covering for his father.

I am so tempted to call WH and let him know that I know about this and see what he has to say, but I truly don't think that he cares. He is doing what he is doing out of his own selfish needs and to keep OW happy. I also want to ask him directly if his atty is aware of what he is doing, how he is violating the visitation order. DS�s are with WH until tomorrow night, if I call now this will give him today and tomorrow to convince DS�s how much fun they had at OW�s house.

Is this advisable to contact WH?

Katey, do you have an IM? A lawyer? I know one of the "veterans" will offer you the best advice, but my senses tell me that YOU contacting WH is NOT the best thing to do!

Can you call his folks and beg them to call him and ask him not to take them to her house? Not for you, but for their grandkids' sakes? Let them know that they are texting you and upset, but are afraid to upset their dad, so it's tearing them up?

Fred- I have an atty. I don't have an IM- I am not in Plan B. I need to be, I want to be... However, in consulting with my atty when I brought this up to him months ago, he stated that I need to appear to be cooperative, esp. in the judge's eyes... Plan B would not be... so here I am. This was prior to the scheduled hearing in October, which was rescheduled to November, which was rescheduled to December, which is now rescheduled to February....

When he returns DSs tomorrow evening I so want to confront him, non-threatening of course, about the blatant violations. But, maybe I shouldn't, keep WH guessing what I'm going to do as he is obviously aware that DSs have told me about being with OW on Christmas.

Catperson- I wish I could do what you suggested, but I can't especially after learning more details tonight from DS12 (who by the way called me twice because he wasn't feeling well due to cold symptoms). DS12 tells me this evening that they also ate Christmas dinner at OW's after opening gifts and then they all, including OW and her kids, went to my in laws for dessert and to open gifts for them. Yes, Grandma and Grandpa bought OW and her kids gifts.

I feel betrayed all over again and am in such despair right now. I can't not stop focusing on this and OW and feeling that she has invaded more of what is (was) mine.....

And then, I have a voicemail from MIL inviting me and boys over for dinner Monday to give me my gift. They were thankful for the gifts from DSs and I and she ended the conversation with "we love you hon". They didn't even call Christmas morning to wish me a Merry Christmas and now this..... WTH??

I will find out tomorrow if my atty is in his office Monday as my friend's mother is his secretary. If my atty is unavailable am I able to do something with Family Court directly?

Help...I tried sleeping on all of this... and am still so distressed...UUGGHHHH.... venting....

Do I need to talk with the boys this evening about this violation of visitation? discuss being truthful vs. lying about situations? If the boys say that "it was Ok, it didn't bother me" what then? Will the judge see it the same way or will he really care that WH is in violation of the order that he agreed with and signed? WH so manipulates the boys....

Should I say something to WH? In talking with a few friends, I'm getting mixed answers... some say yes, let him know how inappropriate he was, etc... some say no, let WH keep guessing about what you are going to do...

I am still undecided about going to in laws for dinner. If I go will they think that I am OK with what transpired on Christmas day and how they helped to facilitate this violation? FIL was very uncomfortable around me yesterday (he comes on Sat to take our garbage to the dump). He usually comes in for a cup of coffee, yesterday he didn't, just said thanks for the gifts and to be careful if I go out on the roads. I just keep thinking about how my MIL ignores me in public at DSs sporting events... esp. DS15's school bowling matches. MIL sits with WH, OW and OW's kids.

And then, DS12 has a couple of basketball games this week during non-visitation in which I now have no doubt that WH will show up with OW. This occurred last week, DS12 not happy, had a horrible attitude for about an hour afterward. When I asked if this is what is bothering him, he said in an "I give up" attitude, angry voice "It just doesn't matter anymore... I don't care" Funny thing is, while basketball was being played, OW's kids are at their own school bowling match that OW didn't go to until after DS12's basketball game was done. DS12 came with me to watch the rest of DS15 bowling match, and he never went over to see his father or his grandparents... pretty strong statement.

I know WH is splitting hairs with the whole visitation/non-visitation time, but OW had no reason to be at DS12's game. Other than to either continue to flaunt their affair in front of DS and me, make it acceptable in public, or OW doesn't want WH to be alone if I'm going to be present (this was a theory just presented to me by a friend- not sure if I buy into this one- what do you think?). WH calls alot of attention to himself when he is around the boys in public. He is very loud and obnoxious cheering on the team, pointing out fouls that the refs missed... come on this is a modified team and if every foul was called it would become a 3-hour game.... Then upon leaving he will say loudly "love you boys, be good" Such a warm fuzzy feeling this creates... YUK.

Hi kateydid-

I know you are very upset about your WH's on-going violations of the visitation and you want to bring it up-maybe in the hope that he will "snap out of it" but he is a wayward, and they can't see anything beyond their own selfishness. You can't "educate" him right now because he is in the fog of justifying his horrible behavior. Basically, it's like the old saying "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of your time and it annoys the pig." (My mom always added: "You will end up covered in mud and pigs like mud.")

I would just keep documenting everything. I think that your boys may be trying to "protect" you from knowing about your WH's on-going disregard of the visitation agreement and them being around the OW. Your boys know that she is a home-wrecker and they won't be giving her much slack. They need to know it's okay for them to tell you the truth about what happens without risking hurting you. I know it's hard, but it's like taking them to the ER to get stitches. You have to be the strong one so they stay calm and can get the help they need. (Yep, been to the ER a few times when my DS's were younger).

I know Queenie had to deal with her FXH bringing the OW to her sons' lacrosse games. I'm not sure where it is in her thread, but she did a great job of always making sure she was chatting with other parents, looking her "goddess" best, and ignoring the waynerds.

Hang in there!

JT- Thanks for your post.... yeah WH is some pig, huh?? Yup been to the ER with DSs for stitches as well. I will continue to document, pray and hope that when the judge hears of all violations he will not ignore them. I still haven't heard from my friend if atty's office is closed this week.

So, I found that OW has a MySpace page. There is a great photo of her, with her kids and WH . I tried accessing her page but it is set to private. Her last login was October... she obviously doesn't check it much. I'm MySpace illiterate. Anything I can do with this? can you post anonymously on this site?

I'm still undecided about dinner with the in-laws... but if they are feeling guilty now about Christmas, then perhaps I should go with a smile on my face.... Take the higher road... I am curious to see if WH and mine pictures are still up on the walls. OW could never have missed them. Maybe I should put my wedding rings back on???

I hate to be Debbie Downer, katey, but Im beginning to be pretty unhopeful about your chances of getting him back, since the entire community is now accepting them as a couple.

Are you ready for Plan B?

Katy,

Had another revelation...

Check with your attorney about persuing a restraining order against OW.

The NY Stalking Laws seem pretty applicable to this situation. Link New York Stalking Law.

I think "Stalking in the Fourth Degree" and "Harassment in the Second Degree" are the most applicable to your situation (I presume she hasn't threatened you physically...yet).

She is "following you (and your children)"; and,
She is "Repeatedly showing up for no legitimate purpose
at places where you (and your children) are.

From the language, you may need to have your attorney send a letter requesting that she CEASE stalking you and your children (you would be filing on behalf of yourself and your kids). You would list out specifically the times she "stalked" you and your children and that such must stop immediately. Then...when she does it again, you file a restraining order AND seek prosecution against her (by filing a police report).

I'm not certain of the exact procedure you'll need to go through to apply these laws in New York otherwise I'd try to save you money by giving you a draft letter to send OW. But I do think this is a good avenue to take.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - If your attorney is unavailable all this week and you'd like to get some kind of letter out to OW in time for New Years eve (do you have her email address?), then I can try to draft a quick Cease Notice for you to send to her. From reading this... safe horizon stalking phamlet it appears such notice can be pretty simple and straight to the point. You just have to give her a clear indication that she needs to stop continually and repeatedely showing up everywhere you and/or your children go. You seemingly don't have to put a bunch of legal language in there or anything. Just ask her to STOP and when she doesn't (which she won't)...you file a restraining order and file a police report.

I am so frustrated with the legal system..... and am really wondering why I shouldn't just go along with what WH is doing. But then I have several sets of pics of DSs looking at me here on my desk at work and tell myself that is why....

I spoke with my atty today and there isn't anything I can do except document these violations to bring up in court in Feb. My atty tells me that this makes our case look that much better....HMMMM, I wonder. Will the judge lay out some consequences for WH for these violations, esp. Christmas, forcing DSs to be part of a blended family their first Christmas away from our family/traditions. Or will the judge just look at it and say "well it has been long enough and DSs should be able to be around OW/kids with WH". IDK anymore... I expressed my concern re: New Years Eve that WH will do the same thing again. I have been encouraging DSs to really speak up for themselves, but.... Why did I raise them to be so polite and respectful of their elders???? So for now I document.

Mr. W- THANKS!!!! I absolutely love your ideas. I read the info you provided. Do you think this could actually work? or is it more of a long shot? The OW also is aware of the visitation order and she is knowingly violating it... she certainly does not have DSs best interests in mind.
Also I'm certain that this Christmas day was planned as WH never put up a tree/decorations and all the boys gifts were from "Dad and OW"

Cat- I never heard the expression "Debbie Downer"... you brought a smile to my face.... I don't know anymore...

I did learn from DSs that when they all arrived at IL's, WH's niece, her DH, and 2 toddlers packed up and left. DS15 said "DS3 wasn't even done playing with his trucks and they were packed up and left" and, WH's older brother, wife, 3 DSs (20,18,18) didn't talk much to WH and OW. I explained to my DSs that is because they do not approve of/like what their dad is doing with OW. They all looked shocked at this.

My atty did recommend that I contact Law Guardian regarding all of this and request she meet with DSs to hear them say how uncomfortable they were, didn't like it, they were never asked but forced to do this, etc.... so I will do that.

I have to leave work now, I'll be back later to post some more... off to dinner with IL's where I will truly be my shining, goddess self with them!!

Copy all myspace pages with her and your husband so you can show them in court. Make them BIG COLOR PICTURES of her and him.

To that end, anyone who is making screen shots of their WS's computer pages, here is an invaluable tool:

http://www.donationcoder.com/Software/Mouser/screenshotcaptor/index.html

It's 100% free, but you have to have a registration code sent to an email address.

I found this invaluable when I was making copies of my WW's telephone activity. There were multiple pages that would not display in their entirety on the screen and required scrolling. This tool will capture the ENTIRE PAGE. It's a great program. I highly recommend it (sorry, Windows only).

Bubbles-

At this point, I'm not sure if I understand why I should do this... WH has already admitted in divorce trial, under oath, that he is having sex (committing adultery) with OW. Will a copy of her MySpace page be of benefit to me in family court? I also have pictures of her and her kids together with WH & DS9 at DS12's soccer games during his visitation time.

OW's MySpace page is set to private, so I can't see any of her other pictures. On her profile under things she likes to do is "spending time with my magnifesant person and kids" and under Books "dont read", she can't spell either- WH has a smart one!! Also she has typed under her profile "the candles go out August 18". WH and I had a scheduled divorce hearing that day, but only was a pre-trial conference where nothing was resolved- NICE on OWs part. Her page was created last June 09 and last logon in Oct.

Update of last night's dinner with IL's... Dinner went well, it was comfortable though not as comfortable as in the past before my MIL's and BIL's (still lives with his parents at 41yrs of age) attitudes towards me shifted 180 degrees. We all made small talk, MIL asking how certain members of my family are doing. Also, a level of joking was present as well that was always present before. I also noticed that mine and WH's wedding and family pictures were still up on the walls. What does this say? Should I take some satisfaction in knowing that OW and her kids, even WH, had to see them on Christmas?

I did put my wedding rings on before going and I really can't describe the feelings with this, but it was incredible, like being reunited with someone you haven't seen in a long time- does that make sense? I still haven't taken them back off... I know I took them off last month because even though they represented a lot of memories, the mutual committment that they also represent isn't there; it is just my committment to my marriage. Any thoughts on this?? I wish the thread on this wasn't lost when this site was down.

Hi Katey, I think your best bet in this situation is to make that appointment with the guardian ad litem (or whatever you call them in New York) for an interview with your boys about their take on being forced to integrate into WH's new life and with OW and her children.

The GAL's sole purpose is to figure out what's in the best interest of the children and to make recommendations accordingly. Judges almost always go with a GAL's recommendation.

But before that, you need to have a discussion with your boys that it's OKAY to express their unhappiness with the whole situation, to be honest on how all of this makes them feel.

Their dad is trying to be a Disney Dad leaving you to deal with the real aspects of child-rearing, disciplining, hand-holding, teaching them values and morals, etc. I would make this your focus-- instead of WH's relationship with OW. Your children are WAY more important than that.

WH needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that life isn't so grand and it's only going to get worse for him. He makes ME angry and I don't even know him.

(((Katey)))

I DO think the stalking thing could work.

Depends on the judge, of course, but if she's aware the judge ordered her to keep away from the children during WH's visitation that PRESUMES some degree of "harm" is associated with such contact.

Do you have her email address...send her a notice and cc your WH asking her to cease and decist following you and your children around town. I think it could be as simple as this:

"OW,

I am asking you respectfully to cease and desist following me and my boys around town. There is a court order specifically precluding you from contact with my children when they have visitation with [WH] (which you and he continually violate but that is beyond my control and will need to be addressed in future court matters between my husband and I), however, during my custodial time with my children I do have authority and you have NO legitimate purpose to continually show up unwelcome in our presence and I am requesting this stop immediately.

Your persistent and repeated presence is threatening, hurtful, and emotionally devastating to all of us. Please stop stalking me and my children.

Katy"


That should do it. If and when it continues...document the date, times, circumstances and places (even email responses which I hope this solicits). Then...file a restraining order AND a police report.

I think NY takes stalking laws a little more serious than most of the states out there. Worse case...the judge denies it, but you are free to file police report after police report. Each instance is a seperate "offense" and CAN BE prosecuted. You'll get your restraining order...eventually. Squeeky wheel WILL get the grease. Be persistant but PLEASANT so as to not be vindictive seeming.

Mr. Wondering

Oh I agree with the stalking thing too! But I think along with that, the GAL could be very beneficial to get something DONE legally (along with the stalkings stuff) about this. In fact, a copy of your demand could be copied to GAL as well.

You should have some more discussions with them about what actually goes on in families. Kids just think all kinds of crazy things about how adults handle things. If they know that other adults wouldn't accept his bad behavior, it will give them courage to be true to themselves, too.

PM-
Thank you and you are ABSOLUTELY right- My children are more IMPORTANT. But, yet I find myself in that rut where my main focus is on WH's adultery with OW and I can't seem to get out and away from it..... It also seems that I just keep hitting brick wall after brick wall and it gets hard to get up. BUT, I know this is WAR and there are going to be tough battles along the way.

Mr. W- Thank you for your advice and the directions you point me in. After reading your post last night I felt like I had something to fight back with having my boys exposed to OW in blatant violation of the court order. I even wrote a letter to send to OW and have it ready to email.

Then came the brick walls this morning.....
I was told by 2 of my friends that I shared this with that it was a stretch and I might do more harm by sending this letter to OW, in essence threatening her (though I don't see where there is a threat stated in the letter- it is what you wrote).

I discussed this with my IC this morning, who is the Family Court psychologist, and he told me that this would not hold up in court. He did state that WH is in contempt of court and he assured me that the judge would address these violations, but maybe just by fining WH- what???. He doesn't think the judge will restrict WHs visitation... but you never know... maybe the cases he hears before ours will pi$$ him off. He's not sure why my atty won't file official violations (unless it will be more effective to bring to court the list of all violations and other infractions at once), or even a motion for WH to show cause why he is violating visitation order. I did tell IC that I had contacted DSs LG and requested she meet with DSs to discuss this. He thinks that she may file a motion with the court depending on outcome of her meeting with the boys.

I am waiting for my atty to call me back re: harassment/stalking by OW.

If my atty is not in favor of this is this something that I can do on my own? Or will this jeopardize his working with me and my case? I don't want that to happen. I did question some of what he told me in the last year re: WH's divorce petition, but in the end it turned out like he said it would- dismissed due to lack of grounds.

Now I just wait and see what WH does with DSs for New Years Eve. It is predicted that we will be getting a snow storm so in my mind, the worst case scenario is.... WH taking DSs to OW's house and they end up getting "stranded" there b/c of snow storm and have to spend the night....... and I will be on the phone with atty Monday morning being that squeeky wheel.

NO, I will not be sitting at home worrying and thinking about this, I am going to friends' home to a party. I went there a couple of weeks ago for a Christmas party and enjoyed myself. I even had a new experience... sat in a hot tub at 2 am in 10 degree weather... it was AWESOME (except the getting out part.. cold and slippery). Though, these parties are hard as I am surrounded by couples... and WH and I used to attend as a couple as well.

Hi Katey!
Happy New Year!
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about your attorney. First he tells you that you can't go plan B, and lets WH and skank rub their A in your face. Then he gets wishy-washy on visitation.
You need a pitbull, not a nice guy here. He needs to be brutal to defend your rights and your kids' rights. How did you find him? Ask around--see if there might be a need to change horses on this race.
Here's hoping your WH and his OW get a raging case of hemmoroids this year! Then they can't sit in the bleachers and make kissy-face.

Happy Belated New Year!!! I can't believe it's been a week since I've posted.... but have been dealing with horrible colds and sinus infections for DS15 and myself and keeping busy with DSs acitivities. I haven't even had time to take down the Christmas tree, which DSs are fine with since they don't want it to come down yet (esp. DS15).

Ok, some updates/questions/venting, so here goes....

All my worries about New Years Eve never came to fruition. DSs were with WH at his parents' home all evening and left there after watching the ball drop on TV. The boys had a wonderful time with WH and their grandparents. they even told me that WH didn't talk on the phone at all that evening. According to text DS15 sent me they got to WH's apt at around half past midnight and he was going to bed b/c he was tired and didn't feel well. Then it get's more interesting. I discovered, through monitoring number of minutes and texts DSs use on their cell phones on our carriers online site, that from DS15's phone there were several calls to OW's home phone from about 12:45 am thru 1:30 am. The first 3 were a minute long and the last one was over 10 minutes long. There was also a call from WH's parents at 1:00 am. I asked DS15 if he used his phone after telling me he was going to bed and he told me that WH did. He needed to call his parents to let them know they got to his apt OK. I asked where WH's phone was and DS didn't know. BUT, WH called me the next morning using his cell phone to see when I was picking up the boys (supposed to pick them up at 10 but I got there at 10:30). The thoughts/??s I had were it is odd that WH and OW were not together on NYE even if it meant violating vis. order especially after Christmas stunt; is all not well in fantasy-affair land?; did WH use son's phone and not his because OW wouldn't answer WH's call, but would answer a call from a number she didn't recognize. IDK... it is all odd.

BTW, I didn't ruin my NYE worrying about what WH was doing with the boys, I did remember why one is not supposed to mix, mixed drinks, esp. those on opposite ends of the spectrum... just sayin. Fortunately this was a lesson learned early in the night, and ummmm... I was able to.... recover nicely and enjoy the champagne toasts with friends at midnight.

I also remembered that I can't worry about what WH is going to do with DSs, if he is going to violate vis. order, b/c I can't control that. I can just be there for the boys and support them through this, and keep documenting.

At Saturday's weekly bowling, WH shows up with OW/kids in tow 45 minutes after it started. At this point, DS15 stayed down on the lanes and stopped going to see his grandparents and never interacted with WH. His team and DS12's teams finished early and DS15 requested I take him home b/c he didn't want to stay. I explained I couldn't as DS9 still had to finish his 2nd game and the whole 3rd game. I have never seen such a negative response from DS15 before. He was upset so I suggested he walk to friend's home, which he and ds12 did without saying goodbye to WH or grandparents. When DS9 is finished and we are getting ready to leave, WH comes over and demands to know where DS15/12 are and then why. I tell him they went to friends home to play video games to which he responded "Yeah, OK, whatever". HMMM.... did he notice DS15 reaction, lack of interaction??? but of course that's my fault. And as IC pointed out I should have thought outside of the box and responded why don't you ask them why they went there. Instead I use a response that once again protects... WH from his actions. Why don't I realize this until it is pointed out to me???? Yes, IC says I need to remove myself from the box (that's funny seeing it written... I think WH needs to do this hehehehehehehehe) and stop thinking in the box, but start thinking outside of the box.

This is evident to IC in my reaction to the following.

Ima- it is very funny... ironic... funny ironic that you posted this There was no kissy-face and I don't know about the hemmoroids- don't wanna go there, who know's what other ailment could be found...

Monday evening DS12 has basketball game which I am at and sitting in bleachers with a couple of friends and our kids our sitting with us too. The bleachers are in 3 sections and we're in the left section. 20 minutes into the game in walk OW, her son, and WH.... and they sit right in front of me (there are two empty rows in front of me and they are in the 3rd empty row) WTF??? was the general question between my friends and I. The air quality/stench got really bad and we all thought that it was the boys' BO. Talk about rubbing my nose (and in essence DS12/9 too) in this affair; Harrassment that Mr. W brought up in earlier posts. I refused to get up and move thinking I didn't want them to think they chased me away. Also, WH had to walk right by DS9 coming into the gym and no interaction. A little while later, OW tells WH she is going to talk with a friend, turns out to be male spectator from opposing team who is by himself, which she did for 10 minutes. When WH/OW leave she waves to him, WH doesn't.

Thinking inside the box was me staying there to not let them "chase me away". Thinking outside of the box would have been having all of us get up and move.

Haven't heard from LG yet, maybe today.... nor my atty. But I do need to contact atty again to ask about filing income taxes this year. Last year we filed together b/c WH lived with us for all of 2008 except the last 13 days of that year. Well, this year he didn't live with us at all, he didn't contribute to the maintenance/upkeep of our home, nor in my eyes contribute to the mortgage/home equity loans- so why should he get the benefit of this?. Though I'm sure WH will argue that part of child support went for this. I think I should be able to file by myself as head of household and claim all 3 DSs. My W9 status is married at single rate, claim 0; WH's status (last I knew) is married at single rate, claims 3. He would really lose out if I file seperately. Perhaps I should suggest if we file together the return gets divided 4/5 to me, 1/5 to him; or I file seperately.

Wow, I can't not post updates for a week at a time again..... way too long... thanks to all who get this far.

katey

(((katey)))
Keep up the good work. Have a stern discussion with your attorney. I'm concerned with his lack of initiative. Mr. W could probably answer this better than me, though.

Yeah, as I was reading this, I was thinking 'why didn't you just say they wanted to leave because they saw you come in with your new replacement family and they refuse to be in your vicinity with them any more. They have no desire to pretend it's ok.'

Don't have much time...

I do know that if you are separated the children's tax ememption goes to the parent where the children spent the night 183 or more nights per year. You'll likely save more money filing jointly but negotiating and getting WH to agree to give you more of the refund is likely an execerise in fruition.

You MAY choose to prepare draft individual returns and a draft joint return (using an estimate of his W2) to simply show him by example the difference and then tell him what it will take to get you to file jointly. Make the choice simple and non-negotiable so as to avoid any argument.

Your attorney likely won't have the answers...your accountant will.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- next time they sit near you...I was thinking you get those swimming nose plugs and put them on for emphasis.

I will put a call into accountant to ask these questions, but to also ensure that he is aware that WH has not lived with us for all of last year, in case WH schedules to have income taxes filed by himself and end up claiming 3DSs as well as mortgage/home equity taxes (though all that ppwk gets mailed to me).

As far as my atty, I have to stick with him as I cannot afford to switch atty's at this point. He is highly recommended and respected in our community which is why I chose him. I have to trust what he says and does. I know during the past year of WH's filing divorce and subsequent court appearances, I did question his actions, but in the end it turned out as he predicted and we even have useful, damaging WH testimony to bring into Family Court.

Well, DS15 and I still suffering with upper respiratory infections. I sent DS15 back to school Thursday after being out Tu and Wed, as he said he was feeling better, no fever, and cough had all but diminished. I'm getting ready to leave for work after posting here and I hear drip, drip, drip... The LR ceiling leaking due to ice build up on roof. So where do I go.... but up on the ladder to chop ice off the roof. An hour and a half later ice is chopped and removed and I go inside to get ready again to go to work... and there was a message from school nurse while I was outside. DS15 coughing increased, and he was sent to the School's Health Clinic where he was dx'd with URI and touch of bronchitis. The nurse tells me that my in-laws were called and they had just picked up DS15. They are not the primary but the secondary emergency contact, but come to find out this is who DS15 said to call. So I call IL's and I hear how sick DS15 is, how he should have gone to the dr. earlier, he can stay at their house, and MIL is going to "fix" him up. I do let them know that I missed the nurse's call because I was on the roof chopping ice build-up off. I speak with DS15 and he does want to stay with them and he was getting ready to take a nap. They even went and had his prescription filled and paid for it. I know I have a chip on my shoulder, but my MIL can make me feel like a neglectful parent... I know I need to say "Do not give them control over me", repeat over and over....

DSs law guardian left me a voice mail on Friday saying she would contact me that afternoon or Monday. She will be reading my email I sent (it is 4 pages long- go figure that long from me )

On the wayward weird front.... it is WH's weekend with DSs. I went to bowling alley to see DS15&9 before going to DS12 basketball game. As I'm leaving bowling alley (which is on a side street off of the main street), OW drives by and loops around again before heading up the road that goes to her house. Hmmmm.... is she checking up on WH... is she, gulp, stalking him now... or even checking to see if I'm there too??? Shake the head, clear the thoughts, shift my focus!

As I've been reading other threads I see it written that most affairs always end and that it is easier for a WH to return than a WW. I am always thinking about this and have a lot of hope that this is true. But, I am always left with the question is this really true for a WH??

It has been just over 18 months that WH started his affair and I, along with many mutual friends, thought that this would have ended by now and it hasn't. I know I need Plan B, but I am not there due to recommendations of my atty and DSs law guardian because of impending family court trial and how this would so be manipulated by WH and his stty in court.

I was in the Dollar Store the other day and they were selling Princess Magic Wands.... I knew I should have bought one... though DSs would have looked at me funny.....

Hope you and DS are feeling better, Katey!

Thanks for the laugh!

Sounds like all is not well in affair-land, which is very predictible. I still wonder about your attorney's advice though. Yes, he was right about how things would go in the DIVORCE, but sometimes what is pro-divorce is anti-MB. KWIM?

It would be so much better for you (emotionally and otherwise) if you could do a dark plan B. It would also force the issue of forcing OW to meet ALL of WH's needs. I suspect this OW would become/is a psycho waiting to happen.

Hope you and the kiddos feel better soon. URI's are no fun!

DS15 and I are feeling MUCH better! Thanks!

Funny thing with the magic wand statement... Last spring when one of the Family Court hearings was adjourned and rescheduled, WH accused my atty and I of planning this ahead of time.... OHHHHKAY WH... I pulled my Magic Wand out and waved it around and YUP! I did this. Gee, if I had a magic wand do you think that is really what I would do with it???

Catching up on other threads... and one has really resonated with me- Pepperband's "I deserve to be loved"....

The other afternoon, after DS15's bowling match I go out and am waiting for him to come out. I am parked one spot, which is empty, away from OW's car. OW and her kids come out and are headed to her car. (slight digression- OW's D14 is screaming in the parking lot to one of her friends "You shut your pie-hole!" several times. I really want DSs exposed to this inappropriate garbage. ) WH comes out and is walking towards OW's car, several steps behind WH is DS15. There was no interaction between WH and DS15, not even a good-bye, see ya later, nothing. WH gets in OW's car with her and her kids and drives away. Perhaps, WH just didn't know what to say to DS15 or just wanted to get out of there due to embarassment?? if that makes sense...

A short while later as we're going home, just DS15 and I in the car, he says to me "Mom, I know you love Dad, but you deserve better." WOW! I'm trying to hold back the tears, and I start to say to him that his dad and I are married, yes I still love his dad, etc... and he interrupts with an exasperated "yeah I know mom" and proceeds to put his headphones back in his ears. And, then I think maybe he really is referring to himself in that he deserves better from his dad.

I am still working through what his statement has evoked in me... or maybe I'm just overanalyzing it???

(((katey)))) you have great kids, because you're a great mom!

Ima- thanks for this, it feels good to hear this every now and again!

I can't believe it's been 3 weeks since last posting. I have been busy with 3DS's and their activities and continued illnesses- colds and stomach "bugs". Why is it that everyone can't have the stomach virus at the same time, but has to have it one at a time? It would be messy for a day or two, but done and over with instead of stretched out for a week.

The situation with WH is the same... SSDD. He and OW and her kids show up at DS12's bball games, then I have to deal with his horrible attitude for an hour or two afterwards; they show up at their weekly bowling on non-visitation Saturdays. There have been no direct violations of visitation in the last few weeks until last night. DS15&12 went winter camping with their Boy Scout troop, so it was just DS9 with WH. WH, DS9 met up with OW/her kids at bowling alley and bowled together. But, I had a gut feeling that there would be some sort of contact, and per my atty there is nothing I can do except document, document, document. If I were to show up and demand DSs than I would be in violation as well and per atty "you need to be squeaky clean when we go to family court trial" (in 9 days).

On WH's last weekend with DSs they had a snow tubing activity with their scout troops at local ski facility. This was the same day as WH's b'day. DS9 stated several days prior to this that "it would be a lot of fun to spend daddy's birthday snow tubing together." When I asked WH if he was taking them he said "No, I can't" no further elaboration. HMMMM... was he spending the day and part of the evening with OW for his bday. His loss, as I took them and we had a lot of fun!

I have since also learned that WH was with OW/kids supporting them through the viewing, funeral & Open House of the Little League coach that DS12 asked WH to take him to. WH told him at the time "no, there will be too many people there." DS12 stated to me it was probably b/c dad was going to be with OW/kids. How right he was! I did tell DS12 that I would take him during the viewing. The viewing(4-7pm)/funeral(7pm) were on WHs visitation day (after school-6:30pm). He calls me and says that he is taking DSs to his parents at 4 so he can attend the funeral. Now, he could have taken DS12 to the viewing, spent his visitation time with DSs, brought them home at 6:30 and still get to the funeral home by 6:45. But no, his priorities are elsewhere.... I told DS12 when I got to IL's home that I would take him to the viewing to which he replied "No, I don't want to go now" I am so frustrated.... what a life experience WH could have shared with our son that he chose not to b/c of OW and her needs.

This past Friday I was informed by our accountant that I can file income taxes seperately as head of household and claim all 3 children. WH has no claim to them since he was out of the house all of last year, but more importantly b/c I have physical custody, and there is no pending legal seperation/divorce and thus nothing ordered by the courts how we are to file. I do have to give him the allowance of claiming half of the mortgage/home equity interest/taxes. If he were to file before me and claim DSs I would be able to go after him with the IRS.

WH will not be happy to hear this, as when he brought DSs home on Thursday he asked what WE were doing about filing income taxes, to which I replied what do you mean WH, we don't have to file together. WH states "yes WE do I was told WE had to". I think he is scrambling b/c he claims 3 exemptions and I doubt that he ever took his mind off of OW long enough to adjust his exemptions last year. I do believe he will need to pay back the IRS. He is also one payment behind in Child Support... OF COURSE IT IS NOT HIS FAULT ... it's his employer's because they switched their pay schedule around to where he gets paid every 2 weeks instead of on the 15th/30th.

I finally seem to have "control" over something, but my anxiety level is extremely high over informing WH about me filing seperately. WHY? Because I know this will hurt him and upset him. WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME??? I know this will certainly throw a huge wrench in Oz Affairland because WH won't be getting back a couple of grand like last year (had to file together last year and split 50/50), and most likely will have to pay back BIG, which means no money for OW.

I can't wait for DSs to come home tonight so we can have our Super Bowl party!

Please be sure to post any follow-up on this matter.
It's entertaining to read how stupid-selfish-short-sighted-angry waynerds are.

Here is a reverse-babble response (just for fun):

"WH, I have no idea what you and OW are going to do about income taxes."

Personally, I am looking forward to filing income taxes separately this year. WH was the reason we had a crazy, complicated tax return. He always relied on me to take care of that because I am an accountant. Guess he will just have to pay someone to do it (and it won't be cheap because H&R Block probably can't handle this one). Hehehehehehehe.....

Katey, your H's explanation about pay period shift is total BS. It's well-known that a once-every-two-weeks pay schedule gives you one EXTRA paycheck over the twice-a-month schedule. He should have MORE money, not less.

What really irks me about the whole paycheck thing is WH knew about this ahead of time, but did he tell me so I could prepare financially? NOOOOOOOO... I find out when I get a $62 support check (He received a paycheck on 1/8 which was just for working one day on 1/1). Oh, and his paychecks are lagged a week, where as before he was getting paid through payday. So for right now he will continue to be a payment behind until the extra (3rd) paycheck in June. Support Collection will not do anything until he is 3 payments behind.

I made a decision and followed through.... I decided to file income taxes seperately as head of household and I get to claim all 3 DS's. Accountant gave me an estimate and it is almost 3x as much as I got last year which WH and I had to split. I just haven't informed WH yet.... maybe I will after taxes are filed... or should I beforehand??

I am nervous, and having a level of fear of having to tell this to WH. IC and I discussed this being because I don't want WH to think "badly" about me or that I don't care about him and I'm not being nice.... Hold the 2X4's.... IC gave me some... IC reminded me that WH wasn't being "nice" when he started his affair, WH wasn't concerned that I would think badly of him. IC said if I wanted to be nice then being nice to WH would be to agree to file jointly so that he doesn't have to owe any $$ to IRS (as far as I know he still claims 3 exemptions and makes two and half times as much income) but I still take the entire return for me and DS's. PERSPECTIVE!!! but I'm still nervous and it goes back to boundaries (my lack of)...

DSs met with LG this week and they did voice their displeasure with WH forcing them to be around OW/kids without asking them and also lying to them about Christmas and where they ended up; WH's lack of communication with them about all of this; and WH not listening to them. LG is still recommending counseling before further interactions with OW as well as agreeing that overnights should not occur at this time, but wait on counselors insight. LG continues to not be happy with WH due to the decisions he is making in regards to DSs best interests. My fingers are crossed that the judge will agree and that there will be consequences to WH's violations.

WH is trying to exert his control.... Next week is school break and he is demanding that he has the boys from Sunday-Sunday because this is in mediation ppwk. This is in mediation, WH has them this school break, I have them for April break. However, neither one of us signed this, I really didn't agree with this, but during mediation I backed down and let it get put in there. However, there is also a statement that states that the boys will decide where they want to be on their breaks. The boys have always stated that they want to split their Feb and April breaks such that they are FR-Wed & Wed-Sun. LG agreed and this was brought up in court last July. WH disagreed (another reason for trial next Tuesday- YIKES!!). DSs told LG the other day this is what they want because they don't want to be away from either of us for a week or from their home for a week. LG thinks this is reasonable because we only live 15 minutes away from each other, not 2 hours.

However, boys asked WH for this schedule Tuesday night and he never answered them. When boys were brought home, I asked about next week and WH stated "It is my week; I have them the whole week" DSs are looking at me with the "Mom, please fix this" look. I let WH know what the boys have requested, that the LG agrees with boys, again with the response "No I have them". I smile at WH and say "OK we'll get to discuss this Tuesday afternoon, Have a nice night". The boys are upset, they now want to come home Wed until Friday when they will go back to WHs for the weekend. I tell them, "well when I tell you to pack your clothes on Sunday, and then you only pack enough to last until Wednesday...."

DS15 says, "I'm old enough to choose aren't I?" Yes you are, to which DS9 says "well am I old enough, too?" I tell them that this will be discussed on Tuesday. They asked that I contact their LG about this.

I LOVE MY BOYS!!! They are showing more maturity than WH.

Having a little fun this afternoon in the office trying to decrease anxiety over Tuesday trial in Family Court.

I'm not sure if everyone is familiar with the Orbit Gum commercials, but they have some great lines that would be great to use in court when questioned by WH's attorney.

"Well, hello WH, you feather-plucking cheater" from the cheerleader commercial.

And from the cheating husband commercial.....

"You son of a biscuit eating bulldog"
"Who are you calling a cootie queen, you lint-licker?"
"Pickle you, Kumquat"
"You Hoboken."

me like
me take

My anxiety is increasing, panic is starting to set in....

Tuesday is the trial in Family Court and I've been trying to think of answers to some of the questions that WH's atty may ask me. I did talk with my atty late Fri afternoon and he told me what to expect. I am so nervous about testifying, but I keep repeating this is for DSs and what is in their best interest.

I did tell my atty about recommendations that LG will make, and also told him that I wanted the current visitation order to stay as is until the boys meet with counselor and they submit a report to the court on what they see is in boys best interest. This will buy more time that the OW cannot be present when DSs are with WH.

The main questions I will most likely be asked by WH's atty is "why do I feel that it is in the boys best interest not to be around OW/kids? and something along the lines of me turning the boys against their father."

I certainly can't answer because she is a skanky, tramp-o-lean Ho, but I also can't answer with words that make me look "morally superior". So I was thinking somewhere along the lines of bringing in her judgement about pursuing a relationship with a married man who has a family as well as being aware of the current visitation order but violating it along with WH.

OH, sidenote..... I talked with someone yesterday who has been out bowling when WH had DSs and OW/kids were bowling together. I happened to mention that WH and OW violated the current visitation order and that these would be addressed on Tuesday in Family Court. This person looked surprised and said that OW (not sure about WH) has been saying that it is OK they are together b/c DSs told the judge (last July at last hearing) they were OK with this b/c their dad was happy. That's right it's all about their dad being happy I know this is all hearsay but WTH??

I know that yes/no questions should be answered as such and only offer more details if asked.

Any other responses I could give? Any other advice?

AND it is obviously not "in the best interest of the children" which is the Judge's guide in decisions concerning the kids.

When the attorney asked my daughter's ex-MIL why she did not call my daughter during the time her son hid my grandchild away with her for three weeks, her response that she thought it would be okay because he was with his dad.

That one little I-don't-have-a-clue admission won her son supervised visitation with his children. She CLEARLY was not looking out for the best interest of my grandchild, just as your WH and OW are CLEARLY not looking out for the best interest of your children.

As for turning your children against their dad, "We (as in WH and you) have always tried to teach our children the correct values, the difference between right and wrong, long before all of this happened. I make ever effort to not disparage their father to them however, I AM honest in answering their questions-- in keeping with what they've been taught all their lives. To change that now would be confusing to them and dishonest."

THANK YOU!!!!

I have written this down on my sheet of responses to possible questions.

I am very nervous, didn't sleep much and pray that it doesn't show in court today. I've read schoolbus's thread on body language and pray that I remember half of it.

I am praying that God guides me today down the path he has chosen for me as I fight for the best interests of my children and in essence my marriage. If only some of the fog could be cleared today....

More WH drama.... I called DSs last night to tell them good night and they had some questions about the court hearing, if I shared with their law guardian their dad's refusal of how they wanted to spend their vacation, etc... Well in talking with DS12 he proceeds to tell me that their dad wasn't there. He went up to OW's house b/c OW called and needed him to bring them apple juice. Apparently, this is because OW's DD14 had her wisdom teeth out yesterday, wanted apple juice, but didn't want her mom to leave her at home or take her with her to the store. So I guess WH is the only person she has available for emergencies.

I'm just shaking my head that WH told them why he had to go and went, esp. before court trial today.... or is this really not a big deal?.... DS15 is capable of babysitting his younger brothers, and I leave them home when I go shopping, run errands. But to me this is different than just shopping... it was to go see OW.

I see this as manipulative OW called with a sob story and got WH to leave his children for her needs during WH's visitation with his children.... and probably some make-out time I should feel grateful that WH didn't force DSs to go with him, but asked DSs if they wanted to go.... DSs told him "NO". I wish I would have taped the way DS12 said "dump truck" when he was a toddler because WH is definitely a "dump truck" right now.

I will check in later.

(((katey))))
Hope all goes well today.
Stand strong, my friend.

Update....

Well it didn't turn out the way I wanted/hoped it would. I was hoping for the current order to stay as is with no contact from OW, have the boys attend counseling and get report from counselor as to boys readiness to be around OW. I'm still processing everything and letting it sink in.

The outcome:
WH has to attend counseling with DSs and initial appt has to be scheduled within 60 days.
The boys will get to decide if they want to spend visitation with WH and if they want to spend the night.

I arrive at courthouse and OW is there with WH. I was hopeful that she would be put on the stand to attest to her "good" judgement. It is ironic that WH who is still married brings his mistress to the courthouse with him. My atty meets with me prior to trial, and announces that WH is moving in with OW on March 1. He basically has moved in already, but is maintaining his apt for now when he has visitation. My atty claims that WH has told everyone, including the boys and they are fine with this. WH never told the boys, nor did he tell me.

So trial starts and my testimony lasts for an hour and a half. During this time I present history of WH announcing his adultery, timeline of all of this, all the violations, atty asked questions about whether or not WH talked with boys about having a girlfriend, their reactions/emotions. During cross examination, WH's atty tries to state that I've turned the boys against WH, that I've made derogatory remarks about him and his OW to the boys. NO, and I use PM's response from previous post (worked well- Thanks PM). His atty states that because the boys have been told that it is wrong for married people to have girlfriends/boyfriends that I'm telling the boys that their dad is wrong, is bad.... WHAT??? Oh also states that WH had been talking about getting a divorce for 2 years prior to d-day in 6/08. I stated that I was blindsided and that he didn't discuss this with me, his wife. Law Guardian also asked me questions. My atty said I did very well against the cross examination of his atty- she didn't shake me.

During my testimony I became so disgusted by WH and his reactions/expressions... he is so wayward... and it still hurts so much and now knowing that he is moving in with OW and her children. It is like another d'day. As my friend stated a few hours ago reality will begin setting in and breaking up the fantasy. IDK... it's still so devastating, but unfortunately a step of progression towards the end of an affair.

I had brought up how a year ago he had come to me stating he was confused, needed to go to counseling, he missed me and our boys and being with us, he loved me, he was still attracted to me. As I'm saying this, WH is shaking his head no, with such a defiant look on his face. Other times as I was giving testimony he had tears in his eyes, and cried a few times. What is that about?? Guilt?? or did something of what I said hit home, cause him to think??

Now, if the boys don't want to go with WH on visitation, or overnight, because he will be living with OW they don't have to. I requested that the LG meet with the boys to explain their role in visitation now, as I didn't want them to be swayed by me or WH. SHe will meet with them on Thursday.

The violations were never addressed, unless the counseling with WH and boys and the boys having the choice of whether they go on visitation with WH is looked at as a result of this

Is this a good outcome?

Sounds like it must have been exhausting.
I don't know how to answer your question except to say that you've done all that you can, and it's impossible to completely insulate your children from the pain since your H is so wayward. It's pretty shameful that he is in such denial, but the history rewrites are to be expected.
((katey))

Yesterday was so exhausting.... I was the only one to testify. The boys' scout master was there as well but never called to testify. I was the only one.

A little more about yesterday... After my testimony WH and I were excused for a recess while the attys, LG, and judge discussed the case. This lasted for half an hour. When this was done WH's atty and WH and OW go to conference room behind closed doors for another half hour to discuss judge's decisions. My atty speaks with me for several minutes, I agree to judge's decisions with request that LG meet with boys to discuss these decisions and how they are to handle their "veto" vote of visitation. WH was not happy with the counseling, and there is the clause that if at any time the counselor wants to see me with them it will be allowed. WH had to agree to this.

So, over the past couple of weeks and esp. after yesterday and WH's reactions to my testimony, I have seriously given thought to at least filing legal seperation agreement and honestly I have thought of filing for divorce. The boys and I need the financial protection NOW b/c of WH moving in with OW. I have to do this sooner than later. As far as Plan B... I requested that WH not come to the boys activities that I'm at when they are with me... judge says this is not warrented and WH has every right to attend, and he encouraged WH to attend with or without OW/kids based on what DSs request. ??? with this and how to proceed??? It would be great to give Plan B letter when serving legal seperation ppwk.

So I am on FB and have the "God wants you to know" application. Today I open this and post to my wall and it is so very true....

"On this day, God wants you to know...
... that it's never too late to get back on track. Never has anyone gone so far on the wrong path that they cannot return to the right one. Never has anyone become so wayward that they cannot benefit from the true light."

The judge doesn't understand "plan B." He just wants to keep WH from becoming an absentee dad. His heart is in the right place (judge) but he isn't aware of the bigger picture. I don't think you'll get any movement on this, so a modified plan B will have to come into play. Others may have similar experience they can help with.

Also, Katy, if you are truly contemplating Plan D...then all the plan B stuff becomes moot and the judges attempt to keep WH from becoming an absentee dad are probably valid. Remember in family court, he is not there to save your marriage..he's there to protect the interest of the kids. Of course we all know it's in the best interest of the kids to have two parents in a happy marriage (with each other) but that's not the court's objective.

We're not center justified anymore?

OH-we're NEVER justified! JK. I noticed the change, too. Someone moved my cheese AGAIN!

What is a modified Plan B? Is there such a thing?

I'm still trying to comprehend that WH is moving in with OW. And, that DSs will be going there (their choice of course), but I'm sure they will go. It will be all fun and new for awhile, then what... As of today, DS15 says he will never spend the night there. OW's home is a doublewide and DSs state that it is real small, it will be real cozy with 5 children. My DS15, DS12, DS9; OW's DD14, DS12 (who is diagnosed with ADHD). I have already had several of DSs friends' parents tell me that they will never allow their children at OW"s house if DSs invite them. Also, my DS12's friend's do not like OW's DS12. What a mess.

Now that they will be living together will this help bring an end to the affair sooner than later, statistically speaking?

Do I just sit back with "my bowl of popcorn" and watch the fallout as reality sets in? Of course always being the safety net for DSs.

I don't want my marriage to end, I do love DH, and I don't want a divorce. But do I still go for the legal seperation (I have the grounds to get this, WH does not) for the financial protection now that he is living with OW? My concern is that after the legal seperation has been in effect for 1 year (after it is filed) then WH could file for a divorce and it would be granted. or do I just tighten up my seatbelt and keep hanging on this ride?

More questions to add to above post....

WH and I have joint legal custody, but I have full physical custody. Friday, WH threatened me with "I will pick up DSs anytime I want wherever they are" This comes on the heels of Friday morning, WH calling DSs and asking them if they wanted to go snow tubing. However, WH never called to ask me first to see if DSs were not busy, they were... DS12 had friend sleep over and DS9 was at a friend's house for a sleep over. DSs 15/12 both said no. WH then talks with me telling me that he will not be able to pick boys up at 6, but at 10:30 after he gets back from snowtubing with OW's children. After hanging up I ask DSs if they were told that OW's children were going. WH never told them this (condition set by judge). I get a call from DS9's friend's mother... WH called and asked DS9 to go snow tubing and he said yes. I speak to DS9 and he didn't realize his brothers weren't going and that OW's children were going to be there. DS9 didn't want to go after hearing that. I call WH and tell him this, to which I and friend's mother get accused of influencing DS9. I remind WH that he didn't give all the facts to DS9 so he could make an informed choice. I encouraged WH to call DS9 and talk to him "I WILL". Then in the afternoon, he left 4 vm's stating that he will be picking up DSs at 6 as he is not going snow tubing and that he wants me to understand that.

WH picks up DSs and tells me to tell DS9's friend's mother that when he calls he expects her to answer her phone so he can talk to DS9 or to call him back if he leaves a message. This is when he made the statement/threat. After he leaves, I look into this further, WH did call and leave a message after already talking to DS9 2x but never left his phone number. I then request on DSs behalf, we were all in the same room, what activities with OW/children he was planning for DSs this weekend. I get "I don't have to tell you where or what I, I mean we, are doing with them" I remind him what the judge clearly stated that we both had the right to ask our DSs if they want to be with OW/children. "No you don't".

Again, WH interpreting how he wants what the judge stated to suit his wayward needs.

If I have full physical custody WH cannot just pick DSs up whenever he wants, right? Can I also state that OW is never to transport DSs to/from school and other activities?

Hi Katey.
Sorry I don't know the answers to your questions. How come your lawyer doesn't know the answer?

I don't know either...

but I do recommend that if and when the day comes that you do file for divorce and temp orders pursuant to the same that you really request the court to be specific about it's instructions as your WH has created a lot of conflict and upset by loosely interpreting and constantly debating the "rules" of separation.

Mr. Wondering

I finally have some time to login and update... recently had 2 huge snowstorms (20 inches last Wednesday and another 24 inches on Friday) that kept us busy shoveling. My DSs were wonderful about shoveling; almost without complaint . They are awesome boys!

As my atty told me after court hearing, even WH's atty had to admit how thick headed WH is being right now and that she realizes now that WH has never talked with our DSs about any of this as he claims. That brought a sense of satisfaction. My atty has stated that we will be back in court sooner than later due to WH being in contempt. He has until April 16 to schedule counseling appt for him and DSs. We, atty and I, do not think he will do this.

A bit of karma..... I know now why WH never went snowtubing a couple of weeks ago with OW and her kids (without DSs per their choice) and his annoyed attitude with me that evening when he picked up DSs. It seems that Support Collection went ahead and had WH's employer take out more $$ ($300 additional) than usual to catch him up on support payments. He obviously didn't have enough $$ to pay for this outing.

Again, this past weekend, WH asks me when we are going to schedule our appt to have our income taxes filed. I again tell him that "we" are not a "we" right now. WH responds with "but we're still married." You're right WH we are still married, but you chose to leave our home over a year ago. You did not live with us in our home for all of last year. "We have to file together." No, WH we don't, I already discussed with my atty and our accountant and I can file seperately as HOH and claim all 3 DS's. "You've already filed" Yes WH I have. "Well I will call my atty to see about this." OK, have a nice night.

And the fantasy world continues..... WH tells DSs 2 weeks ago that next year he and OW are going to be buying either 2 snowmobiles or 2 four-wheelers. HMMMMM..... WH is going to be losing his job in 1 1/2 yrs or less, is 2 mos. behind on his truck payment with the current month also due, he will have to pay IRS back when he files his tax return, his employer's new dental insurance does not cover braces and DS15 still has a balance of $4000.00 that he is responsible for 2/3 payment of (he will pay me $133/month because I front this), and next year DS9 will need orthodontics started, copays for counseling appts will be $100 a session(unless they just collect 1 copay vs. 4 copays) that he will have to front first...... I can't wait to see if OW will contribute to any of this... NOT!!

Oh, it is March 2 and WH has not moved in with OW. I don't know what to make of this?

Get ready for an implosion.

I am praying for that implosion to happen soon, but I know it's not on my timetable. It's on HIS.

Well, my atty's statement of being back in court sooner than later is coming true....

I filed a violation against WH on Wednesday and should be getting paperwork soon in the mail re: court hearing. The reasons for the violation:
1. DS15/12 decided to come home after school last Thursday to get ready for their instrumental concert that evening. They informed WH of this that prev. Tuesday. DS9 still stated that he wanted to go to WH's Thursday. Thursday morning, 5 minutes before bus comes, DS9 states that he wants to come home with his brothers. I encouraged DS9 to still go, as he was stating as of the night before he was OK with going. DS9 tells me that he is nervous thinking that OW/kids will be there or he will have to go to their house. I told him that since his dad didn't say anything about them being there, he has to believe that they won't, but if they are we will be able to follow up with the judge. That afternoon, DS9 gets off of the bus at WH's apt. and so do OW's children. DS9 also told me that WH was sleeping in his bedroom with door closed when they all went inside. Then OW shows up (I assume after work) and they all eat dinner together. DS9 told me later that he was upset because he did not know they were going to be there, his dad did not let him have a choice, and he also doesn't like OW because she is loud.

2. Last Friday was DS12s (now DS13) birthday. It was DSs weekend visitation. Sunday evening after I pick DSs up, DS13 comes over to the car and proceeds to give me a HUGE hug. On Saturday, WH invited his parents, brother, and sister (who encouraged the adultery) to celebrate. OW and her kids also showed up and DS13 was not happy. He did not like that he was not asked by his dad if it was OK. I told him that WH did not ask his brothers to which I got "I don't care that he didn't ask them, it was MY birthday he should have asked me. Dad's card was signed Love, Dad and OW. She doesn't love me why was her name on my card." Then it proceeds to, "all dad does is stick up for OW's son (same age as DS13), he was not playing nicely with me and DS9 and dad didn't do anything. A couple of weeks ago, my friend went bowling with all of us and OW's son was not being nice and we told dad, but he just told my friend if he didn't stop he would be taken home" (first time I heard about this). I have an angry boy on my hands...... and as far as I know WH has not pursued getting any counseling appts scheduled. Also, on this day DS9 was at a friend's house for the afternoon and was picked up by WH, and OW's son was with him.

In court last month after the judge specifically stated that WH has to inform the boys when OW/kids will be present so that they can choose if they want to go (I'm also supposed to be informed so that I can talk with the boys as well), he asked WH "do you understand what I am saying?" Yes your honor.

Now, yesterday, WH asked DS15/9 (DS13 came home to get ready for choir concert last night) if it would be OK to go to OW's house for dinner. DS9 agreed, but DS15 asked to be brought home as he had a headache, which WH did bring him home. DS15 has been getting "sick" often on Tue & Th lately.

This morning I get the following email from WH...

"I just wanted to keep you informed, on April 29 to May 2 we are going to a Nascar race in Virginia. Both DS9 and DS13 said that they want to go and their tickets are bought. We will be leaving on Thursday night, they will not be in school Friday. DS15 said that he did not want to go with us so he will be home that weekend. Their tickets are part of their birthday
presents."

My first reaction is who the he!! is WH to tell me that he is pulling the boys out of school and his weekend visitation does not start until April 30th at 6:00 pm. WH has never discussed these plans with me, just the boys. Yes, the boys can choose if they want to go, but only if it is mutually agreed upon by me and WH first. I'm not sure how to reply yet... going to get advice first... Got any?? I also think I should forward this to the Law Guardian.

Also, I've been thinking about scheduling a phone session with the Harleys. I think I will be able to budget enough $$ by next month. Do you think this will still be beneficial for me at this point?

Grrrrr.....
How about this--you keep the boys home from school, take them somewhere--a relative's or something, and then when WH calls to find out why boys aren't in school you say they will be available at 6pm on Friday night, as per the custody arrangement.

Hi Kateydid,

WOW - I will pray for you and your DSs. I cannot imagine how difficult all this has been for you lately (though I guess I may find out some day). I like IMA's advice about keeping the boys home from school so that WH cannot just take them.

Is there any way to prove to the school that WH does not have visitation until April 30th? They might be able to prevent WH from taking the boys if it is not his legal day to have them.

I hope that the courts take the DSs away from WH completely. He has absolutely no regard for what anyone else says - legally or otherwise. Waywards are so alike in that regard. Maybe the courts taking away his custody would wake him up a bit.

I don't know if counseling from the Harleys helps at this point either, but I have wondered that myself. I have one more session with Steve (I did one of the prepaid packages), but I have not scheduled it because I wasn't sure it would help anything. I was hoping that last one would be with WH and me together, but that's not looking like it's going to happen.

I just wanted you to know that I think about you and pray for you, even when I don't have a chance to be on the MB boards as much.

Katy,

I'm not telling you that you have to suck it up. Play hard if you want to but if the boys really want to go to the race with their dad it may be OK for you to allow them.

You see....IF this ever comes down to a custody dispute your husband's attorney already has a lot of "evidence" upon which he can "claim" you are attempting to alienate WH. It's complete and utter bullcrap but evidence nonetheless. Plus...it's the ONLY defense he's got so I gaurantee it's the angle he'll take. Thus, you'll need things like letting the kids take an extra few hours with WH from time to time to demonstrate that you are actually trying to be cooperative and maintain their relationship with the father. This may not be the time you choose to "allow" it...so be tough if you want...I'm just keeping you aware.

That being said...I went and looked and the actual race in Richmond, VA isn't until saturday night at 7:30. The kids don't HAVE TO miss school. Maybe there are some other races and practice things scheduled for Friday afternoon or Friday night. I'm not sure how those things work but it seems you could email him or communicate that although you are excited for the kids to go you don't want the kids missing school (focusing on their best interests). Indicate that you are perfectly willing to let him take the boys at 3pm Friday, immediately after school and 3 hours before his visitation is supposed to start and that Thursday night just isn't acceptable. Also, you'll understand if he's late returning Sunday evening past the time he's supposed to return them.

You make the appearance of not interferring with his time with the boys AND willingness to give him extra time.

Of course being sure to point out that if the boy(s) change their mind...that is their perogative per the court order.

It also behooves you to put this stuff in writing (and keeping copies) so that you've got proof that you're not "alienating" him. (realize that I KNOW his alienation is completely his own doing)

Mr. W

Thanks Mr. W, Ima and AM.

Warning/disclaimer: I know this will be a long post already, since it's been awhile since I posted, and I'm venting, questioning, and am in a very negative, emotional mood. With that being said.....

I am in such a funk today. DSs are on visitation with WH. Earlier I went to DSs bowling activity, then to DS9's basketball program and driving home I'm thinking of what I'm going to do this afternoon.... sheets/blankets, air out the house (it is in the 60s and sunny here).... Then I walk into my home, quiet and empty, and just start crying and haven't done anything, except decide to post here.

Last night was DS9's annual scout dinner/awards. WH shows up with DS9 along with OW/her kids. I was going to leave, but I felt doing so would give a triumph to WH/OW's affair... they chased me away. As it worked out, thanks to other leaders, WH/OW/her kids ended up sitting at a table all by themselves. DSs sat with me and their groups. OW/her kids ended up leaving before this ended. I was told by several that she appeared uncomfortable. Perhaps a hit to a weak spot in the affair armory.

DS12 is in school play tonight and WH has bought tickets for him, DSs, OW and her kids. I asked DSs this morning if they were aware that they were all going together. WH has not said anything to them. DS15 not happy, and I did tell him that he doesn't have to sit with them. Oh, and it appears that I will be going by myself (friends I asked are all busy). So, they will all be together looking like a big happy family, while I'm by myself. Self-esteem gone.

I got the mail and there is the letter from Family Court acknowledging the violations I filed and subsequent hearing in early May(after WH's planned out of state trip with DSs) along with the formal custody order. In the custody order there is no mention of WH informing DSs when he is exercising his visitation and when he wants OW/kids present he has to inform boys so they can decide if they want to be present. But, this was stated in court by the Judge with my atty clarifying certain points.

I am scared as to how WH will react when he gets his ppwk in the mail. I am back in the mindset that if I "take a stand" like this I'll push WH farther from me. IC tells me sometimes we do the right things for the right reasons and we also do the right things for the wrong reasons.... HUH?? To make a point he then states, "well yeah you better take it easy and be compliant to WH b/c he may just leave you for another woman...."

I've also been reading some of the "bumped" threads esp. about the statistics of the WS/OP affair relationship. What hits me the most is the statement that the majority of all these affairs end within 2 yrs (I know there is give and take with this number), but my WH and OW are a few months shy of the 2 yr mark and their relationship seems to be very strong with no end in sight. I'm sure it doesn't help that I have friends say to me that they thought for sure this would have ended by now given the type of person OW is. She was talking with a former boyfriend at the local gas station just the other day- easy to see this in a small town.

I haven't responded yet to WH's email informing me his plans to take DS13/9 to the car race, out of state, outside of his visitation schedule, pulling them out of school without discussing/requesting any of this with me. My IC is recommending that I respond back via email cc'ing my atty and the law guardian. I need to point out that there was no discussing with me prior to asking DSs, requesting add'l time with them outside of the vis schedule, and deciding to pull them out of school (illegal absence).

IC also states that I have every right to deny WH this due to the school issue, as you stated Mr. W. I like your suggestion of offering the extra time after school on Friday and Sunday. Per IC, I have every right to inquire about the sleeping arrangements b/c if they will all be sleeping in the same hotel room that is inappropriate where DSs are concerned (they will have to see their married father sleeping with his girlfriend). And, they haven't even started counseling yet with WH.

WH still has not moved in with her, nor has he given a 30 day notice to move out (I know the person who collects the rent). If he moves out without notice he will not get his security deposit back. I don't see WH just giving this $$ up. I still think he made this statement in court last month as a manipulation tactic.

Kateydid

((((Kateydid))))

I am so sorry - I know this is awful and I see myself being in your position at some point. I am fearful of being there, as I know what it will do to my new found self-esteem.

Have you asked DS9 and DS12 if they know the full facts of the vacation plans with WH? That may make a huge difference to them, and they may decide they don't want to go. It's not fair for WH to ask them to go to things and not give them complete info about who will be there, etc. Personally, I would make WH stick to the agreement that vacations, etc don't happen without plans being discussed with you first. Waywards never follow rules, but at some point, shouldn't a court force them to?

I am so sorry this is happening to you. I don't understand how a court can allow a married man to carry on the way yours does and allow him to flaunt it before his children. It's just wrong!

Maybe the fact that WH has not yet moved in with OW is a good sign. Don't count on it, but maybe...

I hope your weekend got better. Know that I am sending good thoughts your way. You are a beautiful person, trying to raise your DSs to be good, honest men someday. DSs will always remember that you were the good example in their life. You were there for them when they needed you and you are the strong one. Everyone in your community knows that you are the one in the right - you deserve to be respected and loved. Even if it doesn't always seem like it, people do know the truth, and they know you are a good person who deserves so, so much better. Stand tall and proud!

I agree with AM--sending good thoughts your way.
((((Katey)))
Life will be full of ups and downs. At least your DSs are healthy and doing surprisingly well despite all of the trauma brought on by WH.
Keep up the good fight!

Thinking about you, Katey--it's been a long time since you've updated....

WOW! 7 months since I last posted.

Here is a small, but long update�

WH moved in with OW & her kids end of March. DSx3 go there for scheduled visitation. DSs 10 & 13 share room with OW�s S13; OW�s D15 was moved out of her room which is now DS16�s room (the D15�s room was moved to a converted porch). Visitation was every T/TH 3-6:30 and every other weekend (WH picks up on Fr; I pick them up on Su at 6:30pm) it is now currently just every other Sat-Sun due to WH�s work schedule. The company WH works for is remaining open and WH now works on second shift M-F. In the summer months WH had visitation on T/TH from 10-3. This has diminished the number of times I see WH� once every two weeks. He will sometimes call DSs from work in the evening maybe once a week. He also sends me emails from work about 1 am for me to tell the boys he loves them and misses them and to have a good day at school.

I have gotten a very sour taste re: the court system. The violations I filed in March I officially withdrew at the last court hearing in September. My biggest reason being that they weren�t going anywhere, and the most that I thought could have been achieved through this was. The judge was not going to withhold visitation (WH�s new work schedule is doing that naturally). Out of the several court hearings re: these violations, the judge ordered WH and I to attend �communication� counseling per the Law Guardian�s recommendation prior to the last hearing. I attended with WH and very painful for me to go through this. I did inform WH during one session that I am not his friend and he is definitely not mine, nor do I see us developing a friendship. We are on two separate pages now and the qualities/values/beliefs that he has now conflict with mine. We communicate using email. WH does not like this but it�s nice to have things in black and white so there is no question.

It has gotten interesting� At the hearing in September, my attorney informs the judge that I am withdrawing the petitions. The judge and law guardian are in agreement and just as the judge is getting ready to adjourn WH states �but I still want us to attend counseling�. WHY� court is ending, no more hearings, no more nothing, WH doesn�t have to see me which is what he wanted to begin with� right?? The judge encourages this and WH states that he will schedule the appt. My curiosity kicked in which is why I agreed and ultimately went (last Thursday). I honestly didn�t think WH would schedule an appt. b/c it was over a month later that he actually did.

After the hearing WH requests to meet with LG, and I go along too just to hear what WH is talking about. At this time, I am reassured that I made the right decision. If this hearing continued to trial the LG was going to recommend to the judge that WH and I attend Co-Parenting classes together. I don�t need classes on how to parent my children and make �nice� with a WH. WH proceeds to discuss how he is concerned with DS13 being upset (he is just noticing this now and not a year and a half ago when I had concerns).

WH and I attended �communication� counseling last Th. The counselor voiced her surprise that we had come back to which I agreed to being just as surprised. When WH was asked why, he stated quickly and in a being-put-on-the-spot voice �well to just follow up with our communication with each other.� This turned into a very emotionally draining session for both of us. I still am processing this; there was a lot thrown out there�. Here are some highlights. At one point we were both openly crying. The counselor stated how amazed she was that given our current situation we were showing our vulnerability to each other. She at one point stating how confused she was by this asked WH if he thought he wanted to repair the marriage. WH has thought about this several times because of the boys, the guilt, and �other� reasons but he�s not ready to discuss. He just doesn�t know. He recognized that he betrayed me. He has noticed positive changes in me since he left- some physical, the strength I have shown. He is still attracted to me. He was very happy that I withdrew the violations. The counselor asked him if he was grateful did he thank me. He never has, so she encouraged him to do this. WH stated that now (at the counselor�s office) is not the place to tell me this. There�s more just difficult to go through again� but the counselor did encourage WH to get counseling and then requested to meet with him after I left.

I thought this may have been a turning point for WH�. I thought I would feel better knowing that his relationship with OW isn�t all that great� But the fact of the matter is he still lives with OW and her kids. I know he�s the one that needs to make changes; he is the only one who controls his actions and choices. And since then he has requested to get boys early Halloween weekend b/c he & OW want to take her kids and DS's to Salem, MA to a Haunted House. DS16 is refusing to go, DS13 is unsure, DS10 wants to go. WH's relationships with DS's have deteriorated.

And now that there aren�t any court hearings hanging over my head, being discouraged by my atty, law guardian and judge from having an IM and doing a Plan B, I can shift my thinking.

I know this is a lot, but a lot has gone on in 7 months. Advice, questions always welcome.

Hi Katedid,

Glad you came back. Just curious, why did you stay away for 7 months? I read your story from the begining of this thread, it seems like MB was such a support for you and then in March, nothing...

While reading it I wondered after the custody and divorce proceedings why you didn't go to plan B. The exposure to your WH at all of the sporting events seemed incrediable crual to me and your sons. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it was. I think plan B would also show to your sons that you will not tolerate such poor treatment of yourself and feelings. This would be showing them a good example. Also, the constant stress you must have been or are under has to have affected your relationships with them. Please consider this.

I would seriously be cautious on your interactions with your WH. He has been incrediably cruel and what you say above doesn't even come close to a realization of what pain he has caused. Have you considered going on AD's?

Last question, how did housebreaking the beagle go?

All the best,

ba

katey, I haven't read your whole story, but this last post just sounds like a very weird setup. I realize you are not divorced, per your sig line, but the truth is that WH is living with his girlfriend but still spending lots of time with you and going to counseling sessions and crying over you - ?

Yet he does nothing to change this situation.

After too many years of reading here, and from personal experience, any time a WS says "I don't know what I want" it really means, "I want what I have right now, for just as long as I can manipulate my BS into going along with it."

In other words, the WS wants both the spouse and the OP. Which is exactly what your WH has.

Don't be fooled by his tears. Unless and until he's crying enough to get rid of his girlfriend and come home, his tears don't mean a thing.

MB has been/is a great support! I do wish that I had done a Plan B�. it�s just that IRL my attorney and the boys� law guardian did not understand this and stated that it could end up negatively impacting the child custody/visitation with WH. So, I did what I felt was in the best interest of DSs to not jeopardize my custody with them and to keep OW away from them during their visitation with WH as much as possible for as long as possible (over a year, though there were infractions by WH which is why I filed the violations.)

And� I have not posted in awhile, mostly due to being very busy with DSs schedules and WH not being around to help as much with his newer 2nd shift schedule. I'm still at work now, obviously not working. DSs and I are currently looking at paring down the # of activities that each participates in as I am running all the time and I�m not getting to bed until midnight. I do lurk here, reading various threads, and re-reading the MB material/concepts� which leads me to my current situation. I�m ready for the advice� and the 2x4�s�

WH and I have been talking since early Nov, mostly due to what was expressed in the court-ordered counseling sessions (and, yes all the while WH living with OW). I found myself really listening to WH instead of falling back into my caretaking fixer role and responding with a �no, you can�t think that way; let�s fix this by�� I also found myself expressing myself without letting the fear of rejection by WH inhibit me. Yes, I continue with my IC.

WH moved out of OW�s house the Sunday before Thanksgiving and moved in with his sister and her boyfriend, where he continues to live. WH said to me that he moved out b/c it was unhealthy, this had been coming on for months, they were fighting/arguing, he was accused of having other girlfriends (one of them being me- I�m the WIFE not a gf) and he wasn�t happy�. HMMMM�. yup, the 2 yr affair implosion timeline. I have been told that he loves me, always has, he moved out because of the pain he saw me in caused by him (yeah, OK), he has said good night to me every night. But, per WH he also has some lingering feelings for OW, and are his feelings for me stronger now b/c of his �troubles� with OW, if he moves home it has to be for the right reasons (not just for DSs), and how will he know that he won�t do this to me again.

He has started IC a week ago and has been 2x now. WH called me today and said that he is taking one of the suggestions from his IC to take a break from everyone (specifically me and OW) and focus on him and figuring his issues out. He doesn�t know where this will lead him.

So this is my update in a not-so-small nutshell.

P.S. the housebreaking of our 10 yr old beagle did not go well�. We will bring him inside on the colder nights and crate him to contain the messes.

I really wish you would have Plan B'd. We can't go back on would of/could of 's though.

What is it that you need from us though? All I can see is that your WH continued his affair until it fizzled out. Now, he has moved out of OW's house. He is attending IC who is focused on HIM and NOT your marriage. I would call the Harleys. Find out there take. If you can't afford it, email DrH and get on the radio show.

Well�.. False Recovery- 1; Kateydid- 0

It�s been awhile, the past 7 months have turned out to be nothing more than the beginning of a false recovery. Since I last posted, WH went through some of the motions of indicating a reconciliation. I knew there was contact with him and OW during this time through my �snooping� and intel I had available (which I no longer have a key piece available to me now). It appeared to be the contact that one has when �breaking up� , but regardless it was contact. He did a great job of dropping crumbs, and like a hungry, desperate mouse I ate them right up and put the rose colored glasses back on.

WH never moved back in with me and 3 DS�s, but we would spend time together alone and with DS�s. WH would come over after his shift was done if it wasn�t too late to spend time with me. Yes there was SF and it was great. On Easter, WH came over in early morning to spend with me and boys and then in the afternoon we all went over to his parent�s for dinner. We all enjoyed this time together. As I look back this time was only spent in our home, or in his parents� home. If we were out in public at any of the DS�s functions there wasn�t as much interaction from WH. When there was it was as if he was very nervous/scared� which I accepted.

But, during this time, he called in addition to texting daily, to talk� about our days, the boys days, flirt with each other, etc� up until last Sunday.

I noticed a shift in WH�s responses/reactions to me after last Sunday. I am absolutely sure I know why (it is my gut instinct, first reaction when I found out what is currently going on). Last Sunday I get a text from WH wishing me a Happy Mother�s Day and wondering where we are. I find out later through messages left on home answering machine that he had stopped several times that day to see us. The last message he left started out in normal voice, but by the end it was full of emotion and cracking�. �Please tell the boys I love them and that I miss them.� We went to my mom�s for the day and when I didn�t text back b/c I was driving he calls DS14 to find out where we are. We get home later and the lights are on at home� WH is there waiting for us, but is very distant and cold�.. Gut instinct is screaming at me that something happened that afternoon between his text and our getting home. No contact with me after this until Thursday. There were just messages left at home to tell the boys he loves them, and he will try to call back later to talk �with the boys� That is constantly being stated by him now �with the boys� vs. �with you and the boys�.

Small back track here�. In the last 2 weeks, there have been pictures of OW with a new man on FB on vacation together and FB statuses of both now state �in a relationship�. (Just an odd digression� OW and her new man have been friends for several months on FB� OW and WH never �friended� each other.) My gut is telling me that WH now knows about this� he either went to OW�s house when he knew we weren�t at home and her new bf was there or she just told him. WH no longer has his �choices� of me and OW. And, she is definitely with another man (a single one this time). He was with her yesterday and WH saw them together too (DS16�s prom, we were at school, OW/new man are at school as well to get OW�s daughter from sporting event). Also, I know that WH is removing OW from auto ins policy per a phone call from insurance agent this past Tuesday.

This past Thursday, when I get home I notice some keys on my table. DS11 & 14 give them to me and say they look like Dad�s house keys. I call WH to see if he lost/forgot these keys and he says in a very flat, cold tone �No, I left them there. I have moved on. I moved on a long time ago. I was done long before OW� I ask about the last seven months and what it all means and if it was all just lies�.. �I don�t know, I did it b/c of DS�s it was just for them, I don�t love you, you never loved me, I do love you� Again I ask if these past months were all just a lie �well if that�s what you want to and need to believe� . WTH???

This morning he picks DS�s up for the day, first non-public face to face, and I pushed it with him. Same questions and he can�t even look at me eye to eye when he repeats the �I�ve moved on� crap. I did tell him it was cowardly to just leave the keys on the table (instead of handing them to me the next time he saw me) and that it really affected the boys to see them laying on the table� DS11 broke down saying �Daddy is never coming home now. Will I ever see daddy again?� I feel responsible for their unhappiness and that I�m putting them through this hurt and pain again.

So, here I am again� Devastated and desperate (which per my IC I have issues with� desperation, holding on with huge hooks, self-hatred, shame)�. And a lot of questions�.

WTH has just happened? What have these past 7 months been about? Am I just getting the full force of his anger at OW b/c he knows that I love him and still want to reconcile? Is he mad b/c he thinks I caused OW to finally end their relationship b/c I didn�t make their adulterous affair easy? Is he angry b/c his choice between me and OW has been taken away from him? Is he doing these things now to prove to OW he loves her? Why is he being so cold to me now (he even accused me Fri night that I was keeping the boys away from him)?Which way do I go now? I tell myself to just be still, focus on me and DS�s, but I just can�t seem to do it. Feeing sucker-punched and kicked to the curb yet again. I�m just a mess�

You were sucker punched but be still anyway.
Go dark? Go to the plan B?

Kick him to the curb with a dark plan B?

File something on him since he is in lala land again?

I put question marks after my suggestions because only you know what you should do.

Being still is a state of not being in a rush. Taking calculated moves. Not allowing someone else's actions to define us as people. To define ourselves. Even and especially in sucky junctures. YK?

edited to add....that stuff about it being over long ago. He doesn't this about you that about you.....he is trying to get reactions from you. He is aching for a fight to justify his feelings. He probably IS feeling awful OW is involved with someone else and he is using you to vent his angst of a woman not pining away for him. It was defining him and now it seems it isn't. That threw him off balance of his sense of being a catch. A big fish. Someone at least two women were angling for. He turns the sense of it back on you to build himself up again.

Not a vet here but I vote for a dark plan B. Seems like perfect timing. He's lost her and he's gonna lose you, too, unless he straightens up his act. Otherwise, I'm not sure he'll ever learn to respect you or see what he'll be missing.

The problem, katey, is there was NO recovery. It sounds like there was never any true NC with OW and no real commitment to the M, no EPs, no nothing.

I fear if you don't realize this, you will continue to take the crumbs your H throws at you which, yes, he will continue to do... He has been cake eating for so long, I doubt he will really want to give it up.

You need to move to Plan B and not take your H back until he commits to a real plan of recovery ~ moves back into the home, implements EPs, agrees to be transparent, etc.

This is an ongoing topic of discussion with my IC... I allow myself to be defined by others- their actions and thoughts, or what I think they are thinking of me. I feel very trapped by this.


Reading, what did you mean by this?

YES!! I need Plan B for me. I can't take this drama; it is taking it's toll on me and my 3DS's. I just don't think I can be strong enough and it has a lot to do with what Reading said.

More drama tonight after boys got home from WH.... This morning I brought up to WH, in a moment that I am now not proud of but what's done is done, how much the boys were affected by the keys on the table and even asked DS11 to confirm that to WH, which he did. WH was not happy to hear this, and I told him this would be a great way to talk to DS's about their feelings right now in all of this.

Well, per DS14 & 11, WH did talk to them.... but not about how they are feeling.. it was about how WH is not sleeping/eating well right now because of me and OW, it would be stressful to him if he moved back in with us, but (and get this) not stressful if he were to move back in with OW. That is what he wants. HUH?? he moved out b/c it was an unhealthy environment, they were arguing all the time, even her kids were unhappy with them together. This was not only said to me, but his IC when he went last year.

Now WH told DS's he wants to contact their law guardian to talk with the boys.... ummm.... I don't know if this can be done because we have nothing to do with Family Court at this point, nothing pending. Family court proceedings ended last year. Anyone have any info on this?? I have not kept the boys away from WH, I have opened our lives in our home back up to him. He has been able to come to our home when he wants because of his stated intent months ago. The court ordered visitation schedule has not been followed due to this. On WH's weekends he doesn't have them Friday night b/c he now works on this night, and on Saturday nights they are brought back home b/c his sister does not have room for them to sleep there. The boys have grown accustomed to this.

My friend thinks he is on his way to hitting rock bottom; he is floundering right now b/c OW told him "no" to his cake eating. Either she truly is in a new relationship and will continue with it, or she is manipulating WH to get him back. If WH were to move back with OW, it won't last b/c the last time it didn't due to the reasons stated earlier and now there would be the manipulation factor added in. I don't want to be near him if he is about to hit bottom, but I feel like there is a huge magnet around him and no matter what I'm not strong enough to fight the attraction.

Yes, I need Plan B. I recognize it, but my brain and heart seem to be soooo far apart from each other. How can I do this and not react out of desperation and frustration??? How???

I agree. Dark Plan B.

"Yes, I need Plan B. I recognize it, but my brain and heart seem to be soooo far apart from each other. How can I do this and not react out of desperation and frustration??? How??"

Indeed you don't want to do this (go to plan B). But you do it anyway. You do it with your head and not your 'heart' and as with all other things

action leads to feelings

You go to B and live B and eventually, if you stay truly dark (not peeking at WH) you find that your soul buys into it (plan B).
It takes time. Less time if you don't peek at him.

You might want to file and just go through the D. I say this since he is pulling this doody on you after appearing to be game for recovery. I say this as a BW who actually believes in building marriages and the MB plans BUT only you know whether you need to go in that direction while plan Bing. You know the nuances of your marriage (finacially,etc) and you know what gumption you have left in you.

Is it always necessary to deliver Plan B letter in person?

I did not. I put it in an envelope, with a picture of our family, and put it in the bag with his stuff packed in it, which I left for him at his parents' house, when I kicked him out.

I then texted him and told him, without warning, where he could find his stuff. About two seconds after I called his girlfriend. Blindsided.