After reading MelodyLane's recent and valuable thread on cutting corners with the MB processes, I learned that my Plan B is actually a "Plan C," and Plan C's lead to divorce according to Dr Harley. I would like to un-modify my plan b and go orthodox Harley with it. But there are challenges in doing that.

My wife left the house last September when she finally admitted to me that she was having an affair. I gave her the choice of ending it or leaving, and she chose to leave. I was in plan A for about a month-and-a-half before that, but once she admitted the truth I couldn't maintain my intense job and her affair at the same time. I went straight to plan B and exposed the affair to her family. I did not expose to anyone related to the AP because I know nothing about him since I could not install a keylogger on her password-protected computer or phone. She keeps him a secret. Only my MIL knows anything about him as far as I know. She plans to move overseas with her AP this summer. I will have the kids.

In order to protect my children and assets (her AP lives overseas and is a Muslim--so is she now)I consulted with an attorney and filed for a legal separation. I made it clear to her that I want to leave open the door to marital reconciliation. However, she immediately responded by filing for divorce.

Getting back to plan b, I didn't really follow it correctly. My wife and I have been in communication the whole time: texting and e-mail mostly, along with an occasional letter and phone call. She also has a key to the house and is here with the kids after I leave for work and before I come home. I have kept this arrangement for the sake of the children and my in-laws. My in-laws, who live within blocks of us, have been incredibly supportive through this ordeal. They don't approve of what my STBX is doing and they care deeply for my DD's. I have known them for 27 years, and my relationship with them hasn't changed since this all started. I am worried that if go into full NC, my in-laws will be put in an awkward position, and I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with them. They are still family to me, and the girls need them. They may regard changing the locks and having no contact with my STBX as punitive and an act of war. Taking away my STBX's access to the house will severely complicate matters. There is no room to be with both girls in my MIL's small apartment and it is a retirement community.

Here is my plan: I am going to share with my MIL and sister-in-law (STBX's sister) what plan b is. I'll send them a few links to help, but I'll also explain it myself in a nut shell. They will know that I'm doing this to save the marriage and I think they will be supportive, even though they probably don't think it can be saved at this point. The only possible IM I think can work is my MIL. I know that Dr. Harley recommends against this, but I think they will all think having a stranger be the IM is nutty. My STBX may not cooperate with an IM she doesn't know. I know of no one locally who could do it. I don't know what to do and would like some help. As far as my MIL being the IM, I believe that she is in favor of saving the marriage and her primary concern right now is the girls. If divorce gets messy (STBX hasn't signed the marriage settlement agreement yet) then I will have to change IM's; if it doesn't, I think it can work. I have been very careful not to put her in the middle of things. But she may think that Plan B is stupid and not understand why I have to have an IM. I'll do my best to explain.

Finally, saving this marriage is a longshot. She fell out of love 4 years ago due to my neglect. She claimed that there is nothing I can do to restore her feelings of love for me, and I didn't know how to properly deal with that. We both stopped meeting each others needs and I had a 2 month online EA last year at this time. I was repentant but also foolishly arrogant in the aftermath. It was only after reading HNHN's this past summer that I recognized the full err of my ways. She says she has no life here anymore. She wants out and it will take a miracle to get her back. I remain steadfastly prayerful. My only hope at this point is for her affair to crumble and for her to get out of the fog. Even if it ends, she wants out of the marriage. Even my DD doesn't think she'll come back if and when the affair ends. And if she does come back, she'll have to agree to NC with AP and to work on the marriage by applying the MB principles.

Don't you think your children and in-laws would prefer that the two of you recover your marriage? Would they not be open to an idea that might accomplish that, as opposed to you allowing her to ease out of your marriage, which is what you are proposing and have been practicing?

Yes, Maritalbliss, I do. And I had a feeling this would be pointed out. Just to be clear, I'm not going to resist the advice of veterans such as yourself. I need concrete advice that will help me to salvage the mess I made out of plan b.

You're going to have to start by taking the man pants off your WW and putting them back on, sir. I read your post and saw you bending over backward to explain why Plan B can't possibly work for you. I'd like you to do this: go back and read your own post. Write down every objection you listed for why Plan B can't work in your case. Then write next to each objection how you can work around it. There is a way for every objection. It took me less than a minute to poke a hole in every objection. Take another look, and you'll find the same holes.

You are operating from a point of fear. Let me ask you this: What do you stand to lose? Your WW is planning to abandon her family and move out of the country! If Plan B totally blew up in your face, what would be worse than what she's already doing???

Just, why do you think you need to be in Plan B? Can you explain your reasoning to me?

Good Socratic question, Melody. Truthfully, I think I gave up after she filed for divorce. I sort of took myself out of any semblance of plan b and focused on the settlement agreement. Mistake.

In short, I need to be in Plan B because I want to eliminate any conversations that will include love busters on my part. I'll let the AP do that once they are together and the fantasy erodes. Unfortunately, I let too much Plan C time come between my Plan A and my Plan B. It could be too late for me, but I'm going to try anyway.

Are you certain that you can't control lovebusters? See, you have a REAL advantage over this guy if you would use it. He is not there and you have opportunities he does not have.

Funny you should mention that. I was thinking this week for the first time in a long time that I didn't Plan A long enough, even though there was no way I could maintain my job with her having her affair under our roof. She was up all night skyping. Still does. Can't live with that.

What are your thoughts?

Her affair is a much, much longer shot. The chances of her affair ever coming to anything are next to none. Only 5% of affairs ever get married and 70% of those get divorced in under 5 years. On the other hand 65% of marriages stay together after affairs.

See, this guy is a loser who is just having a little fun. He will dump her as soon as he tires of her or at the first sign of conflict. And they don't have the benefit of Marriage Builders so when the lovebusters begin, it will go down fast.


But, she is a falling down drunk and has no idea how to restore the love in your marriage. YOU DO.. Not that it is relevant, but almost every WS claims they "fell out of love years ago." That is a hindsight perspective that is written on the basis on a new comparison, the point of comparison being a fantasy. It is like a heroin addict who decides his whole life history has been miserable because he didn't have heroin before. He is rewriting history and comparing his past to the high of heroin.

Fallling out of love is a problem to be solved, not a reason to break up.

First off, I think you did the right thing by protecting yourself legally and getting her out of the house. Her skyping all night was destructive to your health. She was flaunting her affair in front of you and your kids which had to have been intolerable. And my hat is off to you for getting full custody of your kids. That is amazing and I applaud you for doing that for several reasons. You don't know who this scumbag is and there was always a chance that your children would be harmed. You have effectively taken steps to protect your kids from that.

I would forget Plan B and go back to Plan A. You are in a position to do Plan A for a very long time and compete with this loser. AND WIN. With her out of the house, she is not flaunting the affair in your face so it isn't as hard to associate with her.

By giving her the cold shoulder treatment, you just make the OM look good in comparison. But if you went back into Plan A and really did a good job, YOU would look good in comparison.

I would try to cause some havoc in her affair. Ask your MIL to find out who the OM is because you want to quietly contact his family and confront him. OM are typically cowards and lowlifes and this guy will not like any conflict at all. We have had OM run off by exposing the affair to their families. Would your MIL help you get his contact information? Will she help you?

When will she be signing the divorce settlement giving you full custody?

Melody,

Agree 100%, and I have expressed all of these points to her, including the statistics you cited, in a series "love" letters. My constant theme to her is that love CAN be restored, and a NEW relationship can be re-created that is better than ever. And that thousands of doomed marriages have been saved. But she doesn't want to be educated.

Sounds to me like you might be saying, 1) stay in my current mode, 2) let her affair die its own natural death (and I agree with you that it will) and 3) then attempt recovery if and when she returns.

I am willing to do that with MB stipulations in place. In fact, that is the only hope I see.

My daughter told me yesterday that if the affair dies, my wife will have too much pride to come back. Seeing her resentment and contempt right now, I can understand why my daughter feels that way. I have the same fear. She's been so unhappy and has said to me many times, "My life is over here."

By the way, she fell out of love 4 years ago, long before she was in an affair. I'm certain of it because her way of acting was much different once the affair started. I knew the affair was cooking when it started...the behavior and actions changed. Even Jennifer Harley Chalmers (who was excellent by the way when I was in Plan A) was skeptical of an affair when I was pretty sure something was going on. The point is, love has been gone for a long time and I've read that women who fall out of love often don't come back no matter what. That's not to say I'm quitting. I have nothing to gain by giving up. But I know the odds are long right now.

Right. And you can't educate a falling down drunk. That is about as effective as selling AA to a falling down drunk. But you have planted seeds for the future. I would not educate her anymore.


I would abandon Plan C and go into Plan A. Start reaching out to her. Be creative, but don't go overboard. Be as friendly and attractive as possible.

What you are doing is making yourself an attractive place to land when her affair crumbles. Do your best to pull her away. You will see her become suddenly very confused.

Fortunately thats not true in the least! About 99% of people who have affairs have fallen out of love. And 65% of them reconcile. So, never fear about that! We have scads of recovered marriages right here on this forum where the couples had fallen out of love.


I agree. I don't think the odds are as bad as you think. The affair is not logical and won't last in the light of day. The OM will never be able to compensate her for the loss of her children and her entire family, if it EVER gets that far. Which I seriously doubt.

Did you read my comment about raising hell with the OM? How can you find out who this loser is?

Melody,
I did read the comment about the OM. She keeps him under lock and key. No one knows who he is. Her trips are clandestine. I will keep trying to find him.

By saying go to Plan A, you're not suggesting she be allowed back in the house, are you?

I believe her parents may know who OM is. They have surely asked her about him. Keep at it with them. Tell them that you believe you can keep their daughter home in the USA and not lose her to some scumbag from another country - but you need their help. They have to understand that your efforts will keep their daughter here.

I will have that talk right away, Maritalbliss. Thank you.

Oh no, I am NOT suggesting she move back in. She is so flagrant that it would wear you down quick. Better to do Plan A from afar.

And I agree 100% with MaritalBliss. I bet the mother knows who it is. I would have a heart to heart with the MIL and ask her to help you. Tell her there is a strong chance you can run this guy off and save your marriage if you know who he is. Explain to her that this guy is a bum who has no character who is likely to dump her at the first sign of conflict. It is obvious he doesn't care about her or he wouldn't be trying to take her away from her own children. Your wife is getting ready to make the biggest mistake of her life. She will NEVER overcome this. But there is a chance you can stop her if the MIL will help you find this guy.

If you can kill this affair and attract her back, you will be in a position to set the conditions of reconciliation, ie: based on MB concepts.

You aren't giving her any more support than what is court ordered, are you?

I will talk to my MIL tomorrow when she is away from my wife. I will also go back to Plan A. Up until recently, due to the anger, I couldn't do it. I can now.

Many, many thanks for your help!!!

Melody,

You asked about custody. I won't technically have full custody until she signs the agreement. My attorney sent it to her before Christmas. She's sitting on it. She agreed to terms before it was drafted. Waiting for her to sign it.

My kids have been with me full time since she left the home. They see her on weekends and every day before and after school for a short time.

Thanks again for your clarifying insights. I am ready to move forward with a new Plan A.

Good man!! Are you on anti-depressants? Another thing you can do is email Dr Harley and get his perspective. He will probably tell you to stay in Plan A, but he might have some good insights for you. Here is the link to write him: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Family, close friends, in-laws, and my Church community have been my anti-depressants, Melody. They're love, care, and support have kept me from sinking to the bottom during this horrid crucible. It's been very hard, but I'd rather not get on drugs. Back in September I considered getting on anti-depressants. Like everyone else, I experienced physical and tremendous mental anguish along with rapid weight loss. I'm coping much better now that I'm four months out of D-Day.

I'll e-mail Dr. Harley tomorrow.

I think I'm out of thank you tokens. :-)

That's great that you have a good support group..

Go watch "Not without my daughter" with Sally Field (great movie). You can see how she will be treated when she over seas with him. Wait till the inlaws get a hold of her.

At a crossroads.

Went back plan A, but before it got far my wife decided not to sign the settlement agreement. Sounds like she's losing confidence that her affair partner is going to commit. But she's not giving up on him either. She's hedging her bets, that's all.

It is likely that I am about to engage in a fierce custody battle, and things could get ugly. I don't want them to, but I I have to fight for my girls.

I want to continue in plan A, especially given the fact that my wife's affair partner is starting to show signs of pulling away. No better time than now. However, I also need to fight for my girls. These objectives are at odds.

Based on my wife's lack of love over the past few years, it it would be prudent to focus on the custody issue, which will no doubt make more withdraws from an already depleted love bank. She feels I drove her to all this (fogbabble) and she hates me for taking away the girls and the house. Not sure how plan A will work under these circumstances, though that is the stick part of the plan, right?

Been pondering this dilemma all week.

Have you read Mortarman's threads? If not, you should.

Also, Plan A and the custody battle aren't at odds. You Plan A and let your attorney take care of the custody stuff. You can blame your attorney for the custody fight.

Well, trying to do plan A, but finding it really difficult to implement. My wife is very angry and mean spirited. She's insulting and won't look me in the eye or talk to me. She's in major blame-shifting mode, and there's no space to make deposits into her LB it seems.

We're working on the settlement and that too is causing tension.

I can put up with her cold heartedness, but it's impossible to be warm and radiant with her since she's this way.

It feels like my car is stuck in the sand.

But a car can get unstuck. Think of Plan A as digging the car out... you never know how long you have to dig to get traction. You never know if your LB$ deposits are tallying up and gaining interest.

As easy as it is to say, and as hard as it is to implement, you need to have no expectations. Take satisfaction in giving it your best Plan A efforts for YOUR satisfaction, rather then any effect it will have on WW. Yeah, I know, easier said than done.

Well, my wife flew overseas today to be her affair partner. Her fourth rendezvous with that POS. Double edged sword. It hurts like hell, but glad to have a few days with none of her drama.

I talked with a priest yesterday, and he was very helpful. Really helped me get my bearings.

When my wife comes back, I'll continue with plan A, but I'm not very confident anything will come of it. Nonetheless, I give it my best and do it with dignity.

Hugs to you J3. Be proud of your efforts to fight for your marriage. What struck me about your WW's actions... she is sabotaging any custody battle she plans for, flying off to be with POSOM and leaving the kids behind.

Enjoy the calm and absence of her drama. Keep doing nice things for yourself.

Thank you, Caracal, for your kindness. Hoping to make it a good weekend and Valentines Day for my girls.

Wife just returned from her fourth trip overseas with her affair partner. I'm supposed to be back in plan A, but its going to be hard. I'm feeling a lot of anger and I'm feeling like its over. javascript:%20void(0)She's not changing, and my resentment now has many layers.

I don't know how I can muster the fortitude to be sweet and kind. I feel that saying nothing is the best I can do right now. Actually, I wish she would just go overseas and not come back. That is selfish, since we have two girls who love their mom. A part of me--probably my ego--feels they'd be better off with her gone.

She's hateful and mean these days, so its really hard to be kind back, and doing so doesn't make deposits in the love bank because she despises guys who are welcome mats. I do too, actually.

I guess I'll just apply Mama's rule: If I can't say nothing nice to her, I won't say nothing at all. It's more about what I do anyway. I'll avoid strife, do some nice things from a distance when the opportunity presents itself, and stay out of her way for the most part.

The divorce is going to be final in 2 months anyway provided she signs the agreement soon. I guess I can suck it up for that amount of time. Jesus take the wheel.

I do see you were in a kind of plan B and then have tried plan A but you sound really challenged by the plan A.....
perhaps you can prepare for a true and strong boundaried Plan B and turn and walk in the opposite direction without having to deal directly with her?

You can go and heal.

It is tough stuff to turn away but it does allow some love to stay down deep in your love bank to draw from if you ever need it.

Just preparing for a real plan B (writing an amazing plan B letter, thinking up intermediaries, etc) might give you the strength to continue plan Aing. It would be there, ready to go once you really need it.

Reading, thanks for your response. I was in plan b and went back to A for three reasons:

1) I didn't have a long enough plan A. Don't feel nothing took root.
2) My plan B was a failure as I didn't follow the procedure correctly and made a lot of withdrawals from her love bank.
3) Her affair partner is overseas, so I have the advantage of making deposits when time and distance weigh down their relationship.

So I'm starting over with plan A even though I'm wishing I were in B at times.

But she is angry and disrespectful and that erodes my hope and resolve. I'm praying for the grace to plan A with dignity.

If you want to save the marriage you need to plan A.
How is your WW getting the money and time to fly off to OM country.

Yes, I want to save it.

Her POS affair partner is paying for it. The guy is supposedly wealthy. Part of the whole allure. He flies her in and she lives the glamorous life with him.

Wow, hope you don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like this POS has done nothing but turn your WW into a high dollar, international call girl. This POS isn't into it for her but what he can get out of her for as long as it pleases him. I can't believe your WW can't see this.

You've got to do something to find out who this craptard is. Like Mel said, talk to MIL. See what she knows.

Well, he's turned her into a Muslim call girl, which has stunned her strongly Catholic family. They have some kind of spiritual connection. Don't know if its real or not. Her family thinks the same thing as you TigerWes as far as him using her, but my MIL will not tell me who he is. MIL is hoping she'll crash and burn and come home. Problem is, time is ticking with the divorce.

So if what all MIL said is true, then what is her reasoning for not helping you bring this POS down a notch? Seems to me she would be jumping through hoops to help you in any way possible.

Mil is worried her daughter will do harm to herself as has been suggested and she doesn't want to betray her daughters trust. Yes, she's enabling her, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Meanwhile, any ideas of how to plan A? What are things I can do? She's not at home, but I see her a few times a week for a few seconds at a time. We don't really talk, though I am trying to engage more now and be pleasant since changing over to Plan A; however, she keeps it really short and avoids pleasantries. I'll try and think and I'll review the EM needs survey this week.

Ah, your WW is fully aware how tenuous this "relationship" is and is using the threat of harming herself to prevent her mother from doing anything that would shut her down...and from the sound of things it wouldn't take much.

As far as betraying her daughter's trust, this would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. This POS is doing nothing short of using and abusing her daughter, and she refuses to lift a finger to help stop it when she can?? Glad my mother wasn't so loyal and loving to me! I'd be dead now.

Are there any MIL relatives such as parents, aunts, uncles, siblings that can talk sense into MIL to end her enabling ways?

Ways you can plan A her

Send her nice letters in the mail. No divorce talk in them and no marriage talk BUT how beautiful she is. Maybe some romantic poems. Perhaps some memories of the past that you yourself like to recall. Hand write them in your best hand writing.

When you do speak, ask her what she thinks of your new shirt (that you will be wearing) or what she thinks about a news event.

Etc.

Be creative and you can be!

That is going to be hard to do, but I will try. Truthfully, when I see her I feel revulsion and disgust. I feel no love for her, only for the person I knew before this.

That person is worth fighting for, only she doesn't exist anymore.

I will try my best, and applying Master Yoda's words I know that there is no try; there is only do.

Can one be loving to another and throw up in the mouth at the same time?

No. They won't do it. They have shunned my wife, but they won't go that far.

Honestly.......the only way I can see you staying in a plan A is to come to this realization

"I am being the best me and doing plan A for my own self. Anything else would belittle ME. I can do this cause I expect nothing in return ...ever.....and want to send myself into the future with this gift to myself."

That might help.

Understandable

Yes she does. She's just lost in the fog of this fantasy. Don't try and convince yourself it's anything but that; it isn't. Your wife is still in there somewhere.

Very good, and do this with no expectations. Plan A is not just about her, but you as well.

Sure you can, that's pretty much the underlying essence of Plan A. The end result is that you will be better for the experience. Whether or not it can save your marriage remains to be seen. But it will save you. I wish I had known about this board when I went through my sitch in 2003 and had existed for my first one in 1994. Oh well.

I wonder how this airline ticket was paid for. Do you know what airline it was? Anything at all? I seen some threads were people called an airline and were freely given info just for asking.

Just as an aside, I can't believe her family. Almost makes me wonder why you even try to save this.

Your MIL is right about one thing though. WW will one day crash and crash hard. And lose her entire family while she's at it.

I can guarantee he would never marry her. She will be looked upon as a prostitute by them.

You can text and email your WW since you don't think you can do well with the F2F for now. If the best you can do F2F is not LB, that will be a GREAT start.

Getting back in Plan A has been interesting. Not gaining any traction and I'm getting hurt by my wife's anger and insolence, but I'm glad I have a plan. Since she's not in the house, it's easy to suck it up and carry out the plan tactfully.

I can tell she is gone. She checked out a long time ago, but its different now. She won't give eye contact, she won't call me by name, and she doesn't say anything nice. The man she loved for 24 years is nothing to her anymore.

Though things look completely lost, I'm staying with the plan at least until our divorce is final. That should be at the end of April if she signs the settlement agreement. She said she'd sign it this week.

If she signs it and things go on schedule, I think I'll end Plan A when the divorce is final. Until then I'll keep tossing the rocks in the river and pray for a miracle.

I'm in a similar situation.
I didn't read your old thread.
Has this been exposed to your daughters?
Can you afford a Private Detective to determine who her affair partner is? He may be married; if he is Muslim that is against their religion to commit adultery. You could expose to his family.

As for custody, your attorney sent her the paperwork before Christmas and she hasn't signed? She is dragging her feet on that.

Hello HDW,

I hope your situation works out better than mine. My daughters and all the family knows what's going on. I have been very clear with my daughters about the impact of my wife's choices. I don't want them to think this is normal or acceptable, and of course I worry about their happiness and development in light of this horrible situation. I feel tremendous guilt for what they are having to endure and the life-long impact this will have on them.

Update:

Still in Plan A, though I have very little contact with my wife. Before I got back into Plan A we would have arguments, usually through texting. Now when she says something that provokes a fight, I ignore the comment or parry it with finesse. She doesn't like pushovers, so I'm not acting like one. I'm just avoiding LB's and I'm trying to be as kind and thoughtful as I can (even with vomit in my mouth).

She was sick this weekend and I dropped by a care package for her. I asked her each day if there was anything else I could get for her. She gave minimal response. Its hard doing these things in front of the kids, because I don't want to confuse them and normalize or tacitly support their mom's decision. But since plan A won't last forever, I can do it for awhile.

When I see her she says nothing to me. She's really cold most of the time. I think I'm making a sisyphean effort, but, again, I can maintain until the divorce is final.

I have no idea of what is going on with her and her affair partner. She still keeps it a secret.

Justthe3osus,

I like the care package idea and I like that you keep trying to show care for her, even if she is rebuffing or trying to dismiss your attempts. I think this is good plan A stuff. Something I have to keep reminding myself is to do this kind of stuff with no expectations. I don;t know about oyu, but I find that exceedingly difficult often.

have you read GJM's thread?

Thanks, Blackhawk. Yes, I've been following GJM's thread. I've not held up any expectations, but that's been pretty easy since she has given me very little reason for hope. I guess at this point I feel like the last of the Mohicans.

I've been thinking of the book SAA. I think its excellent, but there is one major stumbling block for my situation.

If my wife were to end her affair and ask to try and work things out, I think that she would be like Sue. I don't think she would be remorseful about what she's done. For me, reconciliation requires confession, contrition, penance, and a promise to not repeat the offense. Without her remorse, I don't think my love bank can be filled. I will always hate her and consider her a selfish, unattractive person if she doesn't show she's sorry and she doesn't properly make amends.

I left SAA with a feeling of total contempt for Sue. How could Jon take her back? Yes, they are both happy now, but she is a piece of work, and definitely not a prize. How can Jon be happy with such a self-centered, demented person?

This is a real struggle for me.

Another way to look at this Just, is that maybe she's already starting to see that she's being used and played, and the luster is starting to wear off. I mentioned to you earlier about this OM turning her into one of his little international play toys, and maybe she's starting to sense that. That could easily explain her not being able to look you in the eye. VERY easily. I think it could very possibly be that she is becoming at least partially aware of just how much she's screwed up and what it could cost her. Her inability to look you in the eye could be more of a result of that more than anything you have, or haven't done in the past. It could easily be she's starting to feel ashamed. Only time will tell.

Waywards are stupid, and even more stubborn than that. It's very difficult for them to admit they just may have been wrong. And women especially (no offense ladies). Women take more pride in their decisions of the heart than men do. For them to come to the conclusion that they just may have effed up is pretty damning to them. It is to us all, but I do believe more so to the ladies.

I have a feeling that your WW is going to be having a very difficult time soon. I don't say this to give you false hope, but there is no way this affair can sustain itself. There's just no way.

I do believe the remorse you desire to rebuild your marriage will come. It won't come overnight, but I think it will come in time.

Just keep doing the best Plan A you can under the circumstances. You have nothing to lose by trying and everything to gain.

If you don't get the desired result, then you can lay head to pillow knowing you did everything you could.

I know you can live with that.

Thank you, TigerWes. I appreciate your post, as I do all the other posts you drop in other threads. You make many good points.

Your analysis seems very wise, but being somewhat close to the situation I think at this stage her affair is still going strong. Her aloofness causes me to lose hope. I hope you're right about the shame, but I don't sense any shame from her. She comes across as arrogant and entitled more than anything. Nonetheless, I will stay in plan A until the divorce finalizes.

Regarding: "I do believe the remorse you desire to rebuild your marriage will come. It won't come overnight, but I think it will come in time." That is my prayer. But if she can't be remorseful--if she is like Sue--that will prove to be a major stumbling block. Guess I'm putting the cart before the horse thought, aren't I?

Do your daughters or any of the family put any pressure on her about her affair?

If they do what does she say or do?

Her family shunned her for the first few months of the affair. But they have now brought her back into the fold. Our daughters have accepted it, though they don't like it. They don't talk about the affair with their mom, but they have never shunned her. Exposure did not work.

I'm so sorry Just, I think it takes a very strong man to do what you're doing.

I do understand your pain.

You do know why she wont look at you or talk nice to you, don't you?

I feel for her when her world comes crashing down on her. Trust me, it will. I've been there.
I hope she gets the clarity before it is too late.
How are you doing with your letter writing to her while you're inPlan A?

Thank you, BrainHurts. I have not written any letters lately. I'm afraid they will push her farther away and turn her off based on what I know of her after 28 years. I have written several letters over the past 6 months, but none lately. I will write another one soon. Good idea. Thanks.

It will be hard to write because I'm no longer in love with her. But I'll put myself in time warp. That will help. Thanks.

Do you think you're in the state of withdrawal or the state of conflict?
I was in your WW's shoes once and wished my BH of 17 years fought for me like you're fighting for your WW. I hope your WW comes out of the fog before the karma bus hits her.

Also, why would they turn her off? Does she not like affection or admiration?

Do they not come across as sincere?

She is turned off by guys who dote too much on their wives. All of the letters I've sent I've received no comments from. They are ignored. All she says is that her love for me is dead and its not coming back.

That sounds foggy--they probably irritate her and mess up her idea of your being awful (typical for WWs!).

Definitely foggy IMO. I got this from my WH as well during Plan A. If she did not want to receive them, why not directly tell you so? I think ignoring can at times be the WS being conflicted by the Plan A and WANTING it to continue. It is meeting an EN, so the WS hopes that by not saying anything the EN meeting will continue. It is still cake eating.

I think it likely your letters challenge your WW and meet an EN... Just, stop with the expectations of a reaction from your WW. Remember, every stone cast in the river causes ripples, and enough stones can build the bridge. No reaction from your WW does not mean the ripples from the stones in the water are not reaching her, or that the stones under the water are not building the bridge.

karmarose and caracal,

Thank you. I'll keep at it. My hopes stay where they are, but you are bolstering my resolve.

Here's a good read that might give you some more inspiration. be the lighthouse...a post for those feeling tossed in the waves

Tough day.

My wife agreed three times to the marriage settlement agreement I had my attorney draft. She has promised to sign it several times, and she was the one who asked for it to be drafted. I've invested a lot in its drafting, and along with my attorney I've done all the work. She was supposed to sign it months ago. Today she tells me she will sign it on her own time as she's in no hurry to move overseas. Translation: POS affair partner is in no hurry for her to move overseas.

I can't stay in limbo much longer. It's been 6 months and the uncertainty is weighing heavy on me.

Up to this point I have done nothing to take steps towards the divorce. The MSA was drafted because she filed for divorce. I have avoided love busters and I've tried to be as loving and caring as I can. I get no response. I do things for her; she does nothing for me other than to say "thanks" when I do something for her. I may have to revert back to plan b again. Plan A is getting me nowhere and I feel like a total sucker.

Does your attorney have suggestions?
Can you be divorced and settle things after the actual divorce?

My attorney said I can push for a date, but I'd rather she sign the agreement that we spent so much time and money drafting.

Settlement is part of the divorce process.

Just to be clear, I don't want to divorce, but I do need to get my house in order and protect my children since she has filed. Since she has made it clear she wants the divorce, I don't want to be waiting indefinitely.

It's been a few months since my last update.

My wife left the house nine months ago. Her affair is still going very strong. Last month she finally signed a marriage settlement agreement, and we will be officially divorced in about six weeks. I will have full custody of the children and the house. She plans on living overseas with her wealthy, Muslim affair partner and coming over here one month out of every four. Supposedly he is going to buy her a small house that she can live in comfortably during her one month visits here. We'll see how that goes.

I did not file for divorce; she did. But I took assertive legal action early on, and it has served me well.

The other day I was talking to someone very close to my wife. She doesn't know what's going on with her any more than I do. This whole things is still very clandestine. She did tell me that my wife feels superior when she's around this man. He's a big shot and she enjoys the traveling, the dinners, and all the trappings of wealth. I told this person that I had tried from a distance to meet my wife's needs and keep open the door to reconciliation. She just subtly shook her head and in a nonverbal fashion told me not to go there. Not going to happen. After that conversation I made a conscious decision for the first time that I am giving up on reconciliation. I never had much hope to begin with but I resolved that I am finished with this relationship.

I told my mom about this decision and she wept. She is the only person close to me that has encouraged me to try and save the marriage. She did not try to persuade me for she too knows that there is no hope.

I thank Melody Lane for her very good advice about getting out of plan b and going back to plan a. I did not do an aggressive plan a because I couldn't. My wife has retreated too far for that to be possible. But I did suspend all disrespectful judgments and other love busters, and I did as much I could to meet her emotional needs. I am glad I did.

When the divorce is final, I will cut off communication with my wife as much as possible. I won't go dark completely because I refuse to miss events my daughters have just because she's there. Right now my wife comes to the house in the mornings and afternoon to watch the kids while I'm at work. When the divorce is final, she will not be allowed in the house and I will do everything I can to minimize contact. Seeing her, talking to her triggers hurt and anger. I don't want to live with these emotions forever. I know they will always be there to some extent, but I choose to minimize them by avoiding contact.

I am about to take a sharp turn in life's journey, and I plan on making this the best life possible for my girls and me. Even though this is not the turn I wished to take, I will move forward with a fighting determination to make this a beautiful and fulfilling life.

Through this ordeal I have been blessed by the great support of friends, family, church, my boss, and this online community. I'm unsure what the future holds, and I'm not going to jump into another relationship. At least I'm not looking to do that. I will make the girls my focus. Maybe after a year or so I will date, but I don't want to send the message to my girls this year that my marriage meant nothing and that now that I'm out of it I can just go out and date. I'll let some time go by before I start doing that. And even once I do start dating, I will be very, very hesitant to get into a relationship.

I would suggest that you get an IM to pass on communications, but if you don't want to go completely dark after the D, I will understand. Get as dark as possible though, for your own sanity, and a chance for you to have an even better relationship with someone else in the future.

I hear ya, Scotland. Thank you for the advice.

I'm going to do my best to not be bogged down by the hurt of the betrayal. I don't want to spend any more days angry and preoccupied by thoughts of my wife and her new life. I'm pretty disciplined, and I think I can find ways to divert those thoughts when they pop up. The only problem will be the void of companionship. That might make it hard not think about things.

I know how dumb this sounds, because I HATED it when it was said to me, but it takes TIME. Honestly. And, the darker you are, it will take less time and be less harmful to you emotionally.

Agree.

Also self care along side with time.

What are you doing for you?

Thank you, Scotland and BH. Yes, I am prepared to let time do its healing. When the divorce is final it will be the first time since I was 16 that I am unattached. My wife and I hooked up as bf and gf 28 years ago. Therefore, I know it will take a lot of time to heal. I was talking to a guy the other day whom I respect and admire, and learned that his wife left him in 1998. He said it still hurts at times. He never remarried and so I think the companionship void probably makes him ponder his loss a little more than most.

Brain, as far as doing things for myself, its a little hard to find the time. I have the girls. Plus, the years leading up to my wife's affair, I gave a lot of my spare time to work, church, and hobbies. I regret not giving my family more of my time, and I am determined to not make that mistake again. Nonetheless, to borrow from Covey, I will take a balanced approach and will "sharpen the saw."

J3, yours is a very powerful story of fortitude. Everything in your account tells me you tried your hardest -- even in the days upon which you now look back and decide, retrospectively, that you didn't. It takes courage and humility to fight as you have done, and I (from the depths of an extremely similar situation to yours) wish you and your daughters all the best of life going forward. God bless,
igiiroko

Thank you, igiiroko, for your kind words and reflections. I'm sorry that you, too, have had to embark on this difficult journey. Praying that you will receive the grace to persevere and make something special of your life.

Gassho!

Within a few weeks I will be divorced. At that time I'd like to go dark and get back to plan b.

I will need an IM. Anyone know how I can get one. I don't anyone who can do it.

You may want to ask a Church elder to be an IM.
I'm in a similar situation, soon to be divorced (in about 2 weeks thank God) and full custody (for time being) of my kids.

If you cant find an IM consider going to an Al-Anon meeting. Its for families of alcoholics and although your problem isnt alcohol related, they can teach how to "emotionally detach" from your soon to be ex.

I probably wont have an IM after divorce but will have strong boundaries in place.

Fortunately, it seems like your wife just wants to start a new life anyway so she probably wont be knocking down your door at midnight. My wife also will probably be absent as soon as divorce is final.

Any woman (including our wives) that leaves their family AND THEIR CHILDREN for a man is not worth having.

But i would ask around for an IM through your church. How old are your daughters?

HDW and Justthe3ofus,

Have you both thought about being IM's for each other? You both know MB?

I just noticed brain hurt's suggestion.
I would be very interested in trading IMs.
If that is of interest to you please let me know.
My divorce is final on July 24

Brainhurts and HDW,

Sorry, I didn't see these responses until today. At this point, I am going to move ahead without an IM. I think I can stay dark enough to allow for recovery without the insistence of a go-between. Thank you for the suggestion and offer.

Update:
Yesterday was our 20th Wedding Anniversary. Ironically, it was also the day the judge signed off on our divorce. So off came the ring today. My daughters took the news as well as can be expected. They were not surprised and knew it was coming. They've made their adjustments at this point.

I am angry and sad. I am also relieved that this part of the ordeal is over. Someone said to me, "Let's celebrate." I replied that the death of a marriage is never something to celebrate.

I have learned much, and I take solace in the fact that I have avoided love busters for the last few months. At this point I don't want to reconcile with my ex-wife (Wow, did I really write "ex-wife?"). I don't trust her, and I think her heart is hardened forever. However, I heard Dr. Harley say on his radio program that long distance affairs last longer and so couples often don't reconcile until after a divorce takes place. So there is always hope, I guess. I'm just not investing in it. I'm going to try and move forward from here and find happiness with my daughters.

My wife still comes in the house, and I will be writing her a letter informing her that she can no longer come here because of the emotions it triggers in me. It's time to start getting rid of pictures and packing up anything of hers that's left in the house. I'll leave them in boxes for her to pick up.

I ran the race and lost. But I learned much from failure at least.

Right now, I feel like Tom Hanks standing at the crossroads at the end of the film "Castaway."

Justthe3ofus

I'm new here but wanted to reply to your update because I'm about to go into Plan B and am pretty sure it will end up in divorce. In September it will be our 20th Wedding Anniversary so I can understand how difficult the situation must be for you.

I don't think you are a failure - as I understand it you must have a close relationship with your daughters which is really important for them and you. I'm with you that the end of a marriage is not a cause for celebration.

I think I'm also in that situation like Tom Hanks - I have such mixed feelings because I want to recover my marriage but being at the crossroads is a bit exciting. You don't know where the journey will take you. One thing I will say about my experience so far is that it has made me much more open hearted - I used to find it so difficult to share my feelings with other people.

Best Wishes

An IM is a MUST in Plan B. With continued contact, it is NOT Plan B, it is Plan C. Although I understand that you are not contemplating Plan B to save your marriage, it will help YOU heal much more quickly.

I hope that you won't give your WW the fantasy divorce which seems to be the new "norm" in society.

Jay67,
Thank you for your reflections. It breaks my heart that you are going through this. Such a sad place to be. But I pray that you will land on your feet and find the happiness you deserve.

Scotland,

I may not be getting an IM, but I am following the MB script well otherwise. Though my ex-wife is in Fantasyland, this will be anything but a "fantasy divorce." I am minimizing contact with her, I will be civil, but not friendly. She will not enjoy any of the perques of family around me, and she will have to take care of her own financial needs.

She has lost face with a lot of people, and she is living a secret life. She may wind up married to a wealthy man of high status, but she's given up everything for it: God, country, and family. I wouldn't trade places with her for all the tea in China.

The Judge signed mine on the 24th, after 10 years.
The same day my wife wanted to come over. I wrote a limited contact letter and trespassed her from the house.
I can post it if you like.
If you want to plan B I would IM for you.

Update:

My ex-wife messaged me on Veteran's day that she wants to come back home. She has spent more time with the girls, misses them and the family situation, and wants back.

I took her out on a date on Sunday night (last night) just to hash things out. She is still in her affair. She is still Muslim, and is very strong in her faith. After our talk, she says she doesn't think it will work. But her behavior and the things she has done indicates otherwise. We talked for 8 hours. For the first time in years she showed signs of the old love she had for me. The good memories are coming back to her and she realizes what she lost. She said she woke up in a panic over what she has done.

When we talked on Veterans day she sobbed, expressed profound sorrow for what she has done to the girls. Because she was able to muster some remorse, I forgave her. A weight has been lifted in that regard. I don't hate her anymore, though I will always be scarred by the incomprehensible things that she did to me and the family. So many have suffered in the wake of her decisions.

She is confused. She has said she has loved me more in the past than she can ever love her affair partner. But she doubts she can overcome the hate she has for me based on past transgressions and neglect. I know better because of Dr. Harley's program. The love account can be refilled.

She said that if I converted to Islam she would come back. I am a practicing Catholic and my faith is very strong. I will never leave my Catholic faith. Plus, her conversion (Shahada) came through her affair partner. If we were to reconcile any act of of her Muslim faith would trigger thoughts of him (e.g., praying). She was converted on a trip that took place during our 19th wedding anniversary while we were still married and not separated.

She said she has two people inside her at war: the old her self and the new Muslim. I viewed our talk as a person crying out for help and a petition for me to bring her old self back. She is isolated. Her family and friends have estranged her. Her old self has re-emerged for the first time in over a year, but her new self wants her to move to an Islamic country where she can be free of judgment and practice her faith. I told her that judgment from her family and friends comes mostly because of her affair and the circumstances that led to her conversion. She blocks this out.

I am currently in a relationship with someone who I met after the divorce. I am in deep. But she knows that my ex-wife and I are talking, so she graciously has let me put things on hold until I work things out. She understands and values marriage vows and family.

I think that my ex and I could reconcile, but i have some major concerns:

1) How do I know she won't do this again? She is willing to drop her affair partner the way she dropped me. She has no regard for the feelings of my gf. She just tramples on peoples feelings like its nothing. Very selfish. For 26 years she was faithful and true, but the lies and betrayal she has done make me wonder if she is capable of the doing it again. I've heard so many horror stories about spouses who cheat again, and I don't want to live through this hell again.

2) She is Muslim. I could live with my spouse being of a different religion, but her faith in Islam is a connection to her affair and affair partner. Also, I'm not comfortable with the religion and the rabid zeal that she has for it.

3) I don't want to live in the shadow of her multimillionaire affair partner. He wants to marry her, but she says no because he is overseas and she doesn't want to be apart from the girls. (I am so glad that she is finally putting the girls ahead of him.) In their faith, the man dominates and the wife has very little independence. Anyway, his intellect and social and financial status are superior to mine. I am no slouch. I hold a good job in a leadership position, but not at his level. I am a civil servant; he is wealthy and a CEO of an international company. I don't want to be married for the rest of my life feeling like I don't measure up in my wife's eyes. My ex won't admit it, but she loved the status and wealth.

4) She is doing this for the kids more than for our marriage. I am so glad she is considering the kids, but I'm not convinced she wants to really work on marriage. She has a very cynical view of marriage. I think marriage can be wonderful forever when people invest in it wisely.

My plan is to date her for awhile if she is willing to drop her affair partner, and see where things go. I will not be in contact with my current girlfriend and that hurts. I pray I don't lose her over a fruitless attempt to reconcile.

In conclusion, for the first time in over two years, there are signs of life. I know that the love she had for me is still there. But I am extremely skeptical that reconciliation will work. I will set an appointment with Steve Harley. But I would also appreciate the perspective of those on the board.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

Email Dr Harley

Why would you date her if she's still having an affair?
I think you should run from her.

I will not start dating until she ends the affair. That would be a condition.

She's going back and forth.
It is sad how lost some people can become.
Have you read the articles Dr Harley wrote about remarriage to ex?

You are already dating your Girlfriend. If I were her I would run for the hills. If you can do this to HER what makes her think you won't do it again. MB is all about saving marriages but this is a hot mess you got yourself in. You have only been D for 3 months!

I met my gf after the divorce was finalized. I fought like hell for my wife for 12 hard months leading up to the divorce. Threw every rock and pebble I could into the river. No response. No signs of life. I thought there was no chance of her wanting to come back, and so it was also with her family. So once the divorce came through, I resigned myself to a life without her.

I didn't set out to date, but I met someone with whom I connected and we fell in love pretty fast. This very special lady values marriage and family and has encouraged me to look in to the possibility of reconciliation with my ex. I have been completely open and honest with her about every step in the development, and if my ex and I try to work it out, she will bow out. I feel awful about this, but if there is a chance of reconciliation, I have to consider my vows and my family.

I think your 2x4's are not fitting for this circumstance. Perhaps its better to save them for the people who date before divorce and who haven't completed the race.

I ordered the book Buyers Renter and Freeloaders.
Have you read it?

Just3, I don't think it would be a good idea to even discuss anything with your ex except one thing, her ending her affair. What is most likely happening is that her affair is experiencing a bad time, and she's reaching out to you to meet some ENs to help prop up her adulterous relationship. Until that is over, you wouldn't have a chance with her.

Although you may not agree with JK's 2x4's the fact is that you definitely began dating when you weren't ready. If you were ready to move on, you wouldn't have considered dating your Ex. You owe it to your girlfriend to let her go. It's extremely inconsiderate for you to date your Ex and keep the GF as a back-up.

JT3,

So if she is such a confirmed Moslem is she going to confess and subject herself to stoning? I don't think is she going to renounce Islam, another sin punishable by death, either.

Please review TLA's thread too.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2682699&nt=2&page=1

God Bless
Gamma

Gamma has a good point.
How can she be devout in sin?

Certainly you ought to get input from the Harleys. I bet they will say your ex is not out of her fog yet. Not at all. Other than realizing that what she did was kind of awful.......for her.

My gf has bowed out. I'm sorry that she got hurt and feel terrible. I am heartbroken as I love her very much and had hoped for a long-term future. I understand the 2x4's but I had no reason to believe my ex-wife would ask me back. I tried for so long to get her back and all she would say is I don't love you anymore and I never will.

Though I still love my ex-wife, she has destroyed much of that love.

We had another long date and talk. She again expressed profound remorse and self loathing, and I was able to reiterate to her my forgiveness. I was so happy that she was able to finally acknowledge what she had done. It hurt me that the love of my life for 28 years could do something or horrid and not be sorry about it. I told her again that I forgive her and held her. She needed my forgiveness. The person I had know for 26 before the affair has returned. She is out of the fog.

I invited her over for dinner with the family the next evening. The children were so happy. And so was she.

When she go home she prayed and then contacted her affair partner and broke things off. She also told me she loves for the first time in a few years.

Her affair is over.

I am so happy for our daughters. Their mom is back and will not leave them again.

I am still deciding what to do. The concerns I expressed earlier are still there. I believe we can have a happy marriage, but there are issues that I think will hang over us forever. She said the sex was great with him. That is a put off. I feel like if I take her back, I will be celibate. I have no desire to touch her. We always had great sex up till the last few years of our marriage, but I don't see that coming back. I will live in his shadow in many ways. I fear that she spoiled permanently so many things by having this affair.

I spent Thanksgiving feeling heartbroken over the loss of my girlfriend and feeling awful about my wife's affair. I had entered recovery after the divorce and this renewed relationship with my ex-wife has brought back all the pain of the affair. The anger is gone and I am so glad that I have been able to forgive her. But the pain is back.

I will continue dating and see what happens. I will also pray a lot.

If we reconcile I will follow the marriage builders principles and the conditions that Dr. Harley prescribes will be put in place.

I will not simply take her back.

You sound a little foggy yourself. If she JUST broke up with her affair partner, she has yet to really go through withdrawal. She's been idealizing her return to your family and now the reality is about to set in. What if she gets back into it and decides its not as exciting or fulfilling as she thought it would be?

I would tread very carefully here.

What if her affair partner comes after her and tries to seduce her back? And you're basically saying you're going to move forward with a sexless marriage?

I don't know about this...but I'll be hoping for the best for you and your family.

Sex is really hot when it is top secret or out of boundaries of a marriage.

It doesn't mean he was anything fabulous. It means she was willing to communicate stuff she didn't dare try to communicate with her hubby in case he (you) was taken aback by it.

You two can rebuild a sexy marriage once she is truly committed to following marriage builders guidelines (minimum 15 hours of time together a week, no contact with OM, etc)

SF is an EN. Is it one of your top ENs? If so, what you are talking about doing will not last. A relationship with unmet needs will lead to a spouse sacrificing, and that is bad bad bad for marriage.

In the saa book sue also said sex with Greg was great and sex with Jon sucked

If she has converted to Islam what would you do?
Raise your kids as Muslims?

When you say your wife "is back" and "was gone" I want to remind you that she wasn't under a spell this whole time.
She chose to have an affair, chose to leave her family. She wasn't under the control of a mind control machine

Kids are staying Catholic. She will not proselytize them. My hope is that she will snap out of the fog and find her Catholic faith again. But I'm not banking on it.

Little, my wife left our kids too.
I encourage you to email Dr Harley for advice with a history of your case.
He encouraged me to protect my kids from her uncaring behavior.

Good. Protect your kids and keep them strong in the faith.
Dr Harley says to POJA faith of kids but for me it is not negotiable with an infidel.

So I have prayed over this, and have considered the pros and cons over and over. Very confusing. No clear answer, except that Marriage vows are for a lifetime and the kids interest is paramount to any decision that is made. So with that in mind, I am going to give recovery my best shot, if she will agree with the terms I have set. If she does agree to the terms, then we will work over time to see how we progress. I will not re-marry her or invite her back into the home until measurable progress is made. This is for my protection. Here is the letter I wrote to her this afternoon.

November 25, 2012

My dearest _____,

This week I have enjoyed meeting with you and reconnecting in a way I never thought possible again. Though we have a big mountain to climb, I believe that if we go into our plan with 100% focus, we can restore our remarriage and make it better than ever. Let's be decisive and work towards that goal.
Would you please consider taking the following steps with me?

1) We both end all contact with our other love interests. My girl friend has effectively done that. Your affair partner is still in hot pursuit of you. You said you were changing your phone number and getting rid of your computer. That has not been done. Until these two things are done, you have sent him a no contact letter, and I have had a chance to speak my peace with him, this issue is unresolved and I cannot resume dates with you.

A sample no cover letter is attached. I did not write it; I found it on the Marriage Builders Web site. There is another example of the no contact letter found in Surviving an Affair.
If you agree to send one, let�s discuss in person how to execute the delivery. I will need to be present when this happens.

Because of the delicate nature of our past, I would like to put keylogger software on your computer and phone. You may put them on mine as well.

2) We spend at least 15 hours a week together, and we meet to calendar this time. I would like to spend a week alone with just you during our upcoming Christmas break. The fastest track to recovery begins with couples making time with each other. I have really enjoyed our last 3 dates, and I believe that there were sparks of love on both ends.

3) We read the three books by Dr. Harley together and fill out all the questionnaires. We take all the steps he outlines and incorporate them into our lives.

4) You promise me that your heart is in to try and rebuild romantic love and affection in our marriage, and that you will never stray again.

Once again, I ask that you please take my hand and walk this new path with me. Let�s go all in and try to fix our marriage and put the past behind us. This is the best possible outcome for our family. With God�s grace we can do this.
Sincerely,
_______

Sample No Contact Letter (enclosed with the letter)

Dear ______,

The relationship I had with you was thoughtless and cruel. It hurt many people, particularly my spouse, who did not deserve to be treated that way, my children, and my extended family who also suffered from the scandal we created. I am committed to my marriage and determined to make up for all the hurt I've caused my family. I am going to work hard to be the best wife that he deserves.

Because of the terrible offense to my spouse and the damage I have done to our marriage, I am permanently ending all contact with you. Please respect my wish to regain my integrity, and to heal my family. Please also respect my wish that you not attempt to contact me in any way at any time.

My spouse has all the details of our relationship and he will also be told of any attempts at contact.

Sincerely,
_______ (Please don�t sign with your new Muslim name as this validates your affair. Signing ______ (your birth name) is a rejection of the affair.)

I think you are getting your hopes up and putting way too much into this at this point.

SHE needs to show more initiative for you to work with.

(my two cents, but email the radio show and ask for direction!)

Reading,
I agree actually. We are showing signs of life, but she is not following through on some simple things. When I dropped off the letter she was reading a book, but it wasn't one of Dr. Harley's as she said she would.

She agreed to all but one point, the one about me contacting her affair partner. She has told me nothing about him that will enable me to identify him. As long as she protects him and shows loyalties to him, we cannot move forward.

We are at a stalemate tonight. If she doesn't change on this one point, reconciliation may be dead in the water.

Too bad. We had three nice dates this week, and that gave me hope.

There must be a reason his identity is so secret.

her AP lives overseas and is a Muslim

Find out who he is ASAP..Contact OM�s father,fly over there if you have to.
And talk to him.Sorry to be blunt here but bonking a married women.

OM�s father will skin him alive . Espically if you imply you will let him know.
That you will out OM to friend�s and family.

Breaking up another man�s family with kid�s is perhaps to contrary popular believes is seriously not ground up on in the muslim world...

And even if OM�s father would not do anything..No man in the muslim world
would marry ,a divorced women with kids..They are seen as damaged good�s..
And is considered as a Huge embarrassing for the man that chose to do it...

see my post above

How are you?

My last post was on November 26. Over one month later a lot has happened. My ex wife agreed to all of my conditions (based on MB principles, of course). She sent a no contact letter to her affair partner. I also contacted him, but kept it civil and Christian in tone. His response was less kind and a short and uncivil discussion followed. He threw my ex wife under the bus, which only helped her to get over him faster.

My ex-wife and I continued to date. I was unsure of her feelings, and I was still deeply in love with the girlfriend I had met after the divorce. She knew that my heart was with the other lady. So she called me at work in early December. She was crying and asked me to leave work and meet with her. At our meeting She made a strong and loving appeal for me to give her a chance. For the first time in years I saw in her face the love she had for me when we were younger. (We've known each other for 28 years.) The shine in her eyes that flickered so brightly so many years ago reappeared for the first time in ages. We talked for a couple of hours with many tears. She asked me to give her another chance and professed her love. I did not know where that love was coming from. For so many years she was out of love.

We went out again that night. We talked for a few more hours. We wound up holding hands and we eventually kissed. The kiss was like a movie, the most unbelievable kiss we've ever had. Words can't describe the feeling. She came home with me that night.

Since then we have continued to talk and hash things out. We made a firm decision from that day to begin recovery. We have been spending more than 15 hours of time alone each week. We are both educators so we had the last two weeks off. Last week we went on a cruise and it was like a second honeymoon. We are closer now and happier than ever. It has happened so fast.

We are reading Dr. Harley's books together and filling out the questionnaires. There have been many fights and the anger over the affair flares up now and then, but each day things get better. I have learned just about everything I need to know about the affair. I learn a little more each day, but the big things are known now. She doesn't hide anything from me anymore.

I am glad she is back in the house and so are the kids. We still have a long ways to go, but a love that I thought was lost forever has been recovered, and we both appreciate each other so much more. Thank God for second chances.

I am optimistic, thanks to what I have learned from Dr. Harley and the folks who post here, that my ex-wife and I will have a successful reconciliation. We are both willing to follow the marriage builder's principles. We are both going to make our marriage our top priority. We will learn to meet each others needs and to avoid love busters.

My only concern right now is that she is still a Muslim. She converted in a hotel room with her affair partner, so for me her pathway to the faith is profane. I cannot accept it in her. She has renounced her affair partner, but not the faith. This is something I will pray over.

There is one last piece of business to take care of. I am going to contact her affair partner's wife. Yes, he is married. I only just learned this. My ex-wife didn't know until 9 months into the affair. He was planning on marrying my ex as a second wife and keeping it a secret from the first wife. What a fantasy. My ex never accepted that idea. That's ultimately the reason she ended the affair. The first wife never knew of her husband's relationship with my ex-wife. I am going to call the first wife and let her know. My ex-wife will apologize to her as well. My ex-wife is deeply ashamed of everything. She cries about it and feels low self-worth for being a part of this.

In closing this post, the last month has been miraculous. A love that I thought was lost has been restored. What made this possible was Dr. Harley's teachings. I avoided disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts with my ex during the ordeal. I executed Plan B from a distance. Yesterday, I was in her room at the place she rented and saw in her bookshelf a book I sent her about the pitfalls of divorce and a letter I had written her when she was deep in the affair. That letter was an appeal for her to give our love another chance. I thought she had thrown it away after I gave it to her. But she kept it. I threw many rocks into the river hoping to bridge the gap, and I never thought the stones amounted to anything. But they did. Somehow, someway, my ex-wife missed what we had and she rediscovered the love we shared for so many years. I could have killed that love by giving up, by lashing out, and by not reaching out. Thanks to Dr. Harley and Marriage Builders I did not do that. The path to reconciliation has been long and tortuous, and I would not recommend it to anyone, but I am grateful for God's grace and for reconciliation and forgiveness. I am ecstatic to have the love-of-my-life back and our family in tact.

Yay!!!!!!

I'm happy for you navigate that recovery path! Good work!

Thank you, Reading and TranquilDark. I was happy to post last night and share with those who are struggling that the possibilities for marital recovery are there, even when it seems that all is lost forever. Had I known two months ago what I know now, I would be in shock.

So, is there any plans for your future together with your ExW? Are you guys just going to take it how it comes, or are there plans for remarriage?

Is her religious beliefs something you can deal with? What if she remains a Muslim? Will that be a deal breaker?

Scotland,

The goal we set is to remarry. In both of our views--and that of God--the vows we made are permanent. I am going to give this some time before we tie the knot, but my hope is that we remarry in a few months time. I do think it would be prudent to let our recovery work itself out for a few months just to be safe, but we are both 100% committed to getting remarried.

I am unsure of where I stand with Islam in her due to its origin. Had she been a Muslim when we first met it would not be an issue, but because she was converted by her affair partner in a hotel room, I have strong reservations. She cries when I tell her its a deal breaker. She disavows her POS affair partner, and she asserts that her faith in Islam is completely independent of him.

Over the past few weeks, she has attended Mass with me weekly and has avoided her Muslim practices. She drank with me on our cruise and has relaxed other requirements of her faith. But she does not want to give it up. I am going to speak to a priest about this. I am on the fence on this issue. I would never tear someone apart from their religion. On the other hand, I'm not comfortable taking her back as my wife given the history of her conversion, and there are many aspects of the faith I find offensive, particularly the treatment of women. Also, seeing her practice her faith will always be a trigger for me. Maybe that's a selfish, petty view of the situation.

I'm just afraid that her religion will become a sacrifice to either her or you, and it could cause resentment, which will likely kill your marriage.

The fact that she was converted by her OM is a HUGE trigger, and it isn't at all selfish for you to feel that way.

So, do you have contact info for OM's BW? Are you also contacting other members of his family? I don't remember if you had previously exposed to his side.

This isn't going to be easy, and I really think that you shouldn't jump into anything.

I have contacted no one on his side. Only recently did I learn he is married. I know exposure is the right thing to do, but I worry that all I will be doing is bring a bunch of hurt onto his poor wife. If it were me, I would want to know, but for some ignorance is bliss. Ultimately, the truth should not be concealed. I have information that his wife deserves to know. My wife gave me her name and her place of work. I will contact her this week.

Regarding my wife's religion, yes, it may be a wedge, but I pray it won't be. That is the only stumbling block right now, and it is not interfering with reconciliation yet. We are both very happy to be back together and to have our family reunited. We will see how it goes.

Justthe3ofus

So happy for you that you wife has got herself out of the fog.

The religion issue is a big one because her faith was chosen due to her wanting to please the OM therefore it would naturally be a trigger for you.

I grew up with a catholic father and a Muslim mother, at 18 I was given the choice of wich religion I wanted to follow. This was a conditional choice that I had to research and study both religions then make a choice. I chose Christianity and although have a respect for Muslim faith there are certain aspects I just couldn't believe in or follow.

I would make it a strict condition of recovery that your WW should respect your triggers and stop following a faith she was introduced to by the OM and therefore has been represented by a person who clearly doesent understand not respect the faith. For example You can't be introduced to Buddhism by a butcher.

As far as telling the OM Wife I would really reccomend you find her and tell her ASAP. It's not fair that she is left in the dark when her WS could be bringing her STDs and she doesent stand a chance of fixing anything in her marriage if she doesent know there is a problem.

Why can't you contact OMW today? She needs to know about her WH's affair.

Is she back in the house?
You are on the verge of becoming a renter relationship.
Are you aware of this?

I think she is using you as a place to stay.
She was overseas.
Did she already get her job back?

As for marriage vows, they are designed for life but adultery is a deal breaker.
If in doubt ask your priest

Brain,
I will try contacting her tonight. I only have her work number. I will keep trying till I get through.

Jedi,
Besides this affair, my wife has been with only me for the last 28 years, and she never exhibited a renter's mentality. Now that she is out of the fog, I see again the person I grew to love and admire over the years. I am still a little stunned because I never thought her feelings for me would return. At the same time, I am guarded and will not rest on my heels. We are both working attentively to meet each other needs and will carry out the MB plan.

When she was in the affair she was a freeloader.
You became a renter during divorce.
If she is living with you outside of marriage then you are now both renters

I called the OM's wife yesterday. We spoke briefly at her work (the only way I could contact her). She asked me to call her after work hours (1:30 a.m. here). I did. She did not answer. I sent her a text message giving her my phone number and e-mail. I told her I would call again. I don't think she will take my call. I think she will protect her husband and children and safeguard the reputation of her family who are in the aristocracy of Malaysian society. One hour photo wife is my guess. I feel badly for her, but if she doesn't want to know the truth there is nothing I can do.

Jedi,
re: "When she was in the affair she was a freeloader.
You became a renter during divorce.
If she is living with you outside of marriage then you are now both renters"

You are right. One who is not married is a renter by definition, right? We are very close to getting back to ownership, and I am very pleased with the progress we have made. She is being upfront and radically honest with me now. She has given up all contact, as have I with my ex-girlfriend. We are putting MB principles in our lives and following the program. I believe that we have both learned from our mistakes, and we are taking assertive steps to atone for our past sins. This is good. Yes, what she did was awful. I'll never forget it. She has much to do to atone, and so do I. But welcoming her back with forgiveness and love has been sweet and joyful. If I were a betting man, I would not bet against us! We were good each other for 25 years, and I believe we will take what we have learned and be even better to each other for the next 25. We certainly appreciate each other so much more now.

So when you talked to the OMW for the short bit at her work, did you at least tell her about the affair?

Brain,
I was about to tell her the details of the affair when she asked me to call her later. She cut me off. I will snail mail a letter to her work with a detailed outline. I think that is the safest way to ensure she gets it and reads it. I don't think she wants to talk to me, though I will try one more time tonight.

Sounds good. I'm glad you're telling her, if she wants to be denial then that's on her.

You are can't become buyers if you are living together.
Renters live together unmarried.
You aren't married anymore.

Have you considered the online course?

Have you read this article?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5035b_qa.html

Jedi,
I read the article you sent, and it doesn't apply to our situation. We meet each other's needs when we are together, and we don't push each other apart. We have implemented the MB program into our recovery. The process is playing out as Dr. Harley describes in his books and articles, and we will be remarrying. Of course, I can't say 100% that things will work out, but I am very optimistic. We have 25 years of very good history, and I think with MB Builders principles being applied AND learning hard lessons from our mistakes we have a newly built foundation on which to do our recovery work.

You seem to be doggedly skeptical, and I'm not sure why. Sixty-five percent of marriages recover from affairs, according to Dr. Harley. Why can't ours?

I can see why he is, my question is why aren't you more skeptical?

Some rules apply to you, and your situation, and others don't? If 2 people are unmarried, and they are living together, and then get married, they have about an 80% chance that they will be divorced. Why didn't you treat this like a new relationship? You two could have lived separately, while recreating a relationship, and seeing if you wanted to remarry. You two are renters ATM, due to the fact that you are living together while unmarried.

Scotland,

re: "Some rules apply to you, and your situation, and others don't?"

I don't believe I am exempt from the rules. But I also don't think I'm violating the spirit of the rules. In fact, it is the very rules and the laws of my Church around marriage, divorce and adultery that have helped keep me committed to my marriage. And I have learned through this process that these seemingly restrictive laws are life-giving, not limiting!

I am not reinterpreting the rules to suit my fancy, and neither am I advocating shacking up. I don't believe in it, and I don't intend to do it. My ex-wife and I dated for 8 years before marrying, and we did not live together first. We never considered doing that, and we are both very happy that waited till marriage before building our nest together.

I invited my ex-wife permanently back into the family home only when we committed to recovering our marriage. If I wanted to remarry someone other than my ex-wife, the Church would not allow it unless my first marriage was annulled. It was not annulled. Remarrying someone else would be adultery, because in the Church's eyes I'm still bound to the person I exchanged vows with. I will take care of the formality of "paperwork" soon, and we will follow my priest's directive of RENEWING our vows. Notice its renewing vows, not exchanging them. In the Church's eyes, we are still husband and wife. My priests words, not mine.

Why do you keep referring to her as you EX-w then? And when you "dated" your GF, were you not also committing adultery? Or should I gloss over that fact as well? Which is it? Were you free to date, or weren't you?

It's your life.
But as an outsider reading your posts it seems this is happening way too fast.
She left the country and abandoned her family for this guy, gets dumped and comes home.
You welcome her with open arms and want to just close that chapter and move on.
I understand church marriage.
But she doesn't even care about it. Didn't she profess to be Muslim? Did you tell your priest that she left the country and converted to Islam?

How can you POJA that into your marriage?
Will your kids worship the prophet?

Jedi,

I see where you are coming from. Just to clarify, her affair partner did not dump her. She left him after learning of the other wife and of his controlling ways. He is a selfish and egotistical man.

I do not take anything she did lightly. No one who has been cheated on does. Yet, those who really profess to value marriage will make supernatural efforts to preserve the union and improve it, even in the face of calamity. There is a reason this section of the forum is called "Surviving an Affair," right?

Yes, I did welcome her back with open arms. Isn't that what the father of the prodigal son did? (It is the brother in that parable who misses out on the beauty of reconciliation.) She has taken all the necessary steps for reconciling, including admitting the transgression, asking for forgiveness, showing contrition, and taking concrete steps to atone for her mistake. And as far as my taking her back goes, I set conditions based on MB principles for her return. I did not invite her in the house until she met them and I felt safe. It took a month of work to reach that point. Only then did I feel safe.

She does care about Church marriage, and does feel a deep sense of shame and regret for what she has done. Since she has returned she has not practiced the Muslim faith.

Your point about POJA is on target. She is not practicing the Muslim faith, but I worry that she will resent me or feel a void without it. At the same time, I have told her I can't abide it in our marriage because of its origin (plus the fact I don't believe in it or approve her leaving our Catholic faith for it). This is the only concern I have moving forward.

well then your opinion is a Love Buster and out of line with POJA.

Has she taken a polygraph? I doubt she dumped him because he was married. Her actions show she doesn't care about marriage vows.

I think her Taker is still in control and you are making a mistake.

If you want me to keep my opinion to myself I will but why dont you call Dr Harley on the Radio Show for guidance? You dont have anything to loose

I suppose there is a good reason this post of mine was ignored?

I'll address it now:

I have called her my ex since we divorced in August. So I am being consistent with posts I've made since that time. Honestly since she we have reconciled, she is a wife to me now. That will be solidified when we renew vows, which will happen as soon as possible.

As far as dating goes, once the divorce went through, my plan was to seek an annulment if I met someone since there were zero indications that my wife wanted to reconcile. Things were dead for the past 4 or 5 years. I had finally resigned myself to acceptance that she would not return and would not try and restore the relationship we had for so many years. I did not want to live without a companion. An annulment would have enabled me to marry again. But once my wife came back into the picture, and that seemed a miracle to me and to her, I knew that I was obligated to stand up for our vows. I only accepted that obligation when I saw that she was remorseful and fully invested in making this a marriage of true, romantic love. I am thankful to God that I did.

I will call in to the show. What are the hours to call in?

You email the show at this address an tell them your story and you would like to be caller. mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Thank you, TranquilDark.

So, you don't consider you having dated, while you didn't have an annulment, as adultery?

When I asked about you calling her your ExW, and you answered that that was what you started calling her after your divorce, and you wanted to remain constant, I meant why did you BEGIN calling her that if you didn't believe religiously that you two were actually divorced? Is it possible that you wanted to justify you starting to date by calling her you ExW?

See, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this because you are trying to say that you and your ExW(Since you are divorced, I am completely comfortable calling her that) don't fit into the renter mold, because you are still married, and now living together, and you will be renewing your vows, not getting remarried, but at the same time, you justify your dating, after getting a legal, and not religious divorce, because had you found someone whom you wanted to marry in the future, you could get an annulment. Does that mean that you are okay with anyone "dating" to scope out a new potential spouse for their future, because they can annul their current marriage?

Don't get me wrong. IMHO, I believe that you were well within your right to date, after you were legally divorced, of course that is because I don't hold to the same set of religious standards that you do. I am not trying to argue with you about that, but instead, I am trying to show you that your logic is flawed, and fluid. It seems to change to suit your situation, and that rubs me the wrong way. It's your life though, all I am doing is trying to point out things that may help you improve yourself.

BTW, I believe that the biggest lesson you can teach other BSs through this situation right now is that you shouldn't date until and unless you are completely ready to close the chapter on your previous marriage.

Scotland,

re: "Does that mean that you are okay with anyone "dating" to scope out a new potential spouse for their future, because they can annul their current marriage?"

Yes. It is far from the ideal, but better than living as a perpetual bachelor. My wife left me for someone else and divorced me. There were no signs of her getting out of the fog. I met someone and had I planned to pursue marriage I would have had to get it annulled.

re: "I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this because you are trying to say that you and your ExW(Since you are divorced, I am completely comfortable calling her that) don't fit into the renter mold, because you are still married, and now living together, and you will be renewing your vows..."

My wife and I will remarry very soon. As soon as arrangements can be made. But she has been out of the house and away from the kids for too long. It's time for her to come home now that she's agreed to conditions that will make me safe and strengthen our marriage. Since we are not legally married, you may call me a renter, but I reject that label. I've never had a renter's mentality about my job, my parenthood, or my marriage. If I were a renter, I would not take my wife back after all she has done. I would discard her and move on to the next with no trouble at all. But I do believe in vows, I do believe in forgiveness (especially when there is a contrition and atonement involved), and I do believe in second chances. Dr. Harely has written about many cases where the second time around is much better than the first time around. My ex-wife and I are on that path I believe.

But I am glad that you and Jedi have brought this up, since we have to daughters. To alleviate any confusion with them, we will speed up plans to renew the vows and tie the knot legally.

re: "BTW, I believe that the biggest lesson you can teach other BSs through this situation right now is that you shouldn't date until and unless you are completely ready to close the chapter on your previous marriage."

Really? Wow. I think the biggest lesson that can be learned from this is to fight for your marriage and even when it appears to be dead, there is still hope. I applied MB principles in my fight, and the recovery of my marriage is a tribute to that. THAT is the enduring lesson.

The recovery of a marriage is a beautiful and life-giving event, and the lesson that you glean from this is don't move on until you're ready to close the chapter? Really? I respect your posts on this site, Scotland. I have learned much from them. But if the enduring lesson you see from my situation then I think that is a pharisaical take on my 14 month journey to hell and back.

x 2

Have you taken any steps to protect yourself and your children should your exWW decide to divorce again?

Your situation has lot of

Don't get me wrong, it is always great when a marriage is recovered using MB. It is even spectacular when there is a remarriage, as in the case of Johnstwin. I am NOT baulking at that.

Do you or don't you agree that it may have been too soon for you to begin dating, seeing as you so readily ended that relationship, and began this new one?

And I believe you may have misunderstood my question about people dating to find someone else. But that question isn't important right now anyways.

Is your ExW a buyer or a renter?

What steps have been taken to ensure that she will not leave you and your family again? Does she have strict EPs in place?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want you rushing into a remarriage with your ExW just to show us exactly how much of a buyer you are, you need to take time with this, and ensure that you are doing this for the right reasons, and that you will protect yourself from this type of damage again.

Yes, Scotland, in hindsight I got into dating too fast. I wish I had never dated. But hindsight is 20/20. As I said, my wife had shown no signs of love for years. There was absolutely no evidence to suggest that she would want to come back. She had said repeatedly that she did not love me and never would again. Had I known there was a chance I would not have dated anyone. I suppose it would have been wise to wait till she had married her affair partner, which was their plan, or wait for her relationship with him crumble before I started dating myself.

Regarding is my exwife a renter or a buyer. Well, besides her affair partner, I am the only man she has ever been with. We were high school sweethearts and married for 20 years. She has demonstrated a buyers mentality all the years I've known her until the affair began. She is out of the fog and I pray ready to be a buyer again.

EP's:

She sent her no contact letter to the POSOM and has had no contact with him. I also spoke with him on SKYPE and told him never to contact her again. I used threatening words.

No more passwords on cell phone or computer. No social networking. I can check her phone and computer anytime I wish. And I do it often.

We spend 15 hours a week together just the two of us.

We are reading Harley's books and filling out the questionnaires.

Neither of us will have friends of the opposite sex. This is a change for us.

We are working on learning our needs and meeting them, and avoiding LB's.

POJA and Radical Honesty are also in place. (Her Muslim religion is the only sticking point here, although she has not practiced it since returning to our home.)

You are holding people to your own personal religious standards.

Which is wrong.

Religion is a personal decision. What it right for one is right for that one person. Your standards are right for you because you are making the decision for yourself.

As long as a BS waits to be divorced there is no reason to say he should not date.

As to calling a unfaithful wife the same logic applies. What the BH wants to call his WW is up to him an whatever he wants to call her is the best name.

WW, XW, FWW, EXW, S(*t, Wh**e, etc, etc, are all ok.

In my religion when you get a civil divorce the church says in their eyes you are still married. You can not get remarried to your EX in the church because you still are married according to them. So to be legally married in the courts eyes you have to have stand up before a judge.

No religion is without sin. Read religious history. Last I knew churches are still run by people. When is the last time God said mass?

Have you seen these?

Conflicts of Faith (Part 1) #1
Conflicts of Faith (Part 1) #2
Conflicts of Faith (Part 2)

Thank you, BrainHurts. Those articles are very helpful. I will ponder them. I will also write to Dr. Harley since my situation has a different wrinkle to it.

Fantastic, let us know what he says.

Here are some good clips about remarrying.
Radio Clip
Radio Clip on Remarrying a Spouse
Radio Clip on Remarriage

regarding her Muslim faith, she converted in the fog.
As it has been pointed out, how can she be a practicing muslim while in adultery?
They stone adulterers.

Personally I would NOT POJA religious education concerning my kids.
Why negotiate with the Devil?

Jedi,
I told her when I found out that she converted that her conversion is profane and an offense to God because of the adultery. I have also told this to her POS affair partner, who is lucky he is overseas. She knows I will not accept it, and she knows that it is completely off limits to the children. They are Catholic and will stay Catholic, at least until they are adults. She does not practice her faith in the home, and hasn't been to Mosque since returning home. She has also told me she doesn't want the kids to convert. She will not try, and she has not broached the subject with them in the pat 14 months that she has been a Muslim. They are safe.

Did you ever send a follow-up letter to OM's BW?

I have not sent the letter yet, but plan to draft it and mail it this weekend. Work has usurped my time; however, I am anxious to get the letter off. I wish she would have answered her phone.

I commend you for that.
But that is also why you should remain divorced from her.
She left the Church and your marriage.
You aren't married in Christ (If the unbelieving depart, let them depart) and you aren't married legally. Does your Priest know she has renounced the Churvh and Christ?

How can you have a marriage with MB principles with a Muslim? It isn't possible for a Christian.

The BW might know already but not want to deal with it.

Just the 3,

You are lucky to have found a faith based website geared to restoring marriages in MarriageBuilders.

For insight into the "reversion" your wife underwent in the hotel room, I suggest you buy a copy of Robert Spencer's "The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran" to understand the ease of your ex wife's reversion.

Adulterers have an entitlement mentality, the OM has it in spades, and he is bolstered by canon law in his holy book and the traditions that guide the believers.

I hope you restore your marriage and your family. You've got guts.

Yes, two priests and a bishop know, and all have encouraged me to reconcile with my wife, even if she remains Muslim.

Yes, I believe that is true.

Bellevue,
Yes, "reversion." I didn't use that term because it would be confusing to the forum folks. I might check out that book, but I already know how easy it was for her to revert. Having researched a few things, your post makes sense to me. You seem to have insight into this topic.

I am hoping that as my wife exits the fog her Muslim faith will recede with it. I see signs of it already, though I am not banking on just faith.

There were things that happened in the church and in our marriage that put her off with the Catholic faith. I think she associated the Church, which she loved before, with a lot of problems in our marriage (I spread myself thin with volunteering and a priest in our parish yelled at her just as she was becoming disillusioned).

I am going to work at respectfully trying to bring her out of the Muslim faith and back to her Catholic faith. But I will not use a stick other than to say I can't abide her practicing the faith in our home.

TheRoad, I would like to know where exactly I was holding someone to MY religious beliefs? I did no such thing. I was merely trying to point out the fact that Just is seaking out of both sides of his mouth. In some ways, he says that he was divorced, so he was free to date, and then the next thing he says is that he and his ExW are still married, so living together doesn't make them renters. It was as if Just was using bits and pieces of MB to justify whatever it is he wished to do at that moment. He wanted to date, after he was LEGALLY divorced, but didn't have an annulment, which for HIS beliefs means he was technically still married, so he began calling his ExW his Ex, and started dating. Now that his ExW has decided that she made a mistake, and would like to try to recover the marriage she once had, after OM became to repugnant to her because AGHAST He was already married(because apparently the fact that SHE was married didn't mean much to her, but I digress), they shack up, but it's okay, because NOW, they are still religiously married.

Just, the steps that the two of you have been taking seems, on paper to be the right ones.

How has her attitude towards you and marriage changed? Is she showing remorse? I know it is not typical for a WW to show little remorse.

Legal divorced is divorced.

Divorced in the eyes of the IRS, misc. other entities.

A religious entity that does not recognize the divorce is fine but it doesn't make the other entities incorrect.

Apples and oranges.

You would need to re-legalize that marriage to make it all around and vibrantly true marriage.

HTMS

What do your kids think of getting back with their mom?

Just3,

You are commiting a huge love buster by telling your wife she can't practice her faith in your home !!!

This is NOT MB!

mb is NO love busters. You openly say it will be a way of married life - to disrespect your wife's beliefs and forbid her from practicing them in your home. !!

That is a RENTER attitude

Brain,

Our kids our elated and the house is back to the normal, happy family state it was in before the disaster of the past two years.

Getting legally remarried is the stated goal we are working towards, and we are very close to getting there. She has met my EP's. We are reconciled. Isn't that the whole point of the exercise?

On paper? Really? That's like an asterisk, right? I've followed the steps in real life, not on paper, and they are paying off. Sorry if our "shacking up" spoils the soup for you.

My ex wife's attitude has changed dramatically. So has mine. We are both much more considerate and sensitive each others needs, and we are cognizant of the LB's that we made are committed to avoiding them in the future. Only time will tell the rest of the story, but we are on the MB plan.

As far as remorse goes, she has shown it. There have been occasions where she has wept in shame and self disgust. She says sorry often.

She was not a muslim when he married her. She became a muslim for her OM.

His WW remaining in that religion would be the same as a WW keeping the maritial matress when she brought home the OM to rut, and now wants her BH to use it now.

Or WW keep and wear clothes or jewelry that OM bought her.

Or WW changed the way she kept her hair to make OM happy.

Or listen to music a WW never listened to before the affair but did with her OM and wants to now.

For a WW to continue any changes that were brought about by the affair is a Love Buster, On her part against her BH.




Yes.

No.
A person can change their beliefs.
Dr Harley often mentions this on the show. He was ask in premarital counseling: How will you respond if your spouse converts to Islam?

For just3 to dictate what religion is permitted in the house is a HUGE love buster.

Besides they actually aren't married now.

But it sounds like her BEING Islam is a big LB, not to mention a huge trigger.

This is going to take some careful thinking on both your parts.

Yea I was thinking that too. Maybe the whole religon thing should be set aside for now and they focus on bonding using the 4 policies that are in HNHN and read lovebusters?

That is the approach we are taking, and it is working. At this point the religion question has not been a wedge, but it could happen later.

If in doubt email Dr Harley.
My understanding is that this is a disrespectful judgement and a lovebuster. It's also control telling a spouse what religion is allowed

Its not the religion that's a wedge.
It's the control and disrespect just3 shows her by mandating what religion is allowed in the house.
It causes love bank withdrawals and resentment.

I think his problem is that she converted while in her affair. If he is not Muslim and does not convert then the stage is set for future arguments.

This should be worked out now, before they get comfortable in recovery.

But I agree....email Dr. Harley.

Not true. As I posted earlier, I am advising my wife to follow her faith, whatever it is. However, I cannot abide by her being a Muslim because of the nature of her conversion.

I am not making a disrespectful judgment and there certainly have been no angry outbursts. Neither am I trying to control her. I am simply setting limits for what I can live with. She understands this completely and does not feel as if I'm being disrespectful or controlling.

I will ask Dr. Harley by e-mail if it is possible for us to to reach an enthusiastic agreement on this issue.

So its an EP not a DJ. Understood, I can see that now. POJA isn't used in EPs.

I think you should welcome her to practise and study it yourself and show your complete support. You don't have to covert though.

Yup.

She converted with OM. How sucky but alas.........there IS some very lovely stuff that appealed to her about the faith.

It just made her OM more attractive to be the one to show her cool stuff about it.

I vote be supportive.

I wonder what Dr H would say on this.

To me his WW converting to Islam for her OM then coming back home to recover her marriage with her BH and refusing to give it up is the same as a WW that had sex in the family car with the OM and refuse to sell the Car.

Same goes for the mattress, sofa, dining room table (actually that house needs to be sold), clothes, jewelry, gifts, bought or worn for the OM, music introduced to WW by the OM.

A WW that drank beer with her BH before the affair has to learn to give up wine and going to vinyards because those were things WW did with the OM. That WW has to go back to beer or go dry.

It is not a LB to require a WW to rid herself of everything that is connected to the OM, it is called Consequences.

WW goes boo hoo, tuff, get her a box of tissues.

I am NOT bright enough to answer these questions, but I am just barely competent to ask others...

If WW bringing back a new religion, acquired through association with POSOM, to the marriage is unsupportable, how then is the situation in which a WW brings back to the marriage an OC, also acquired in association with the POSOM, supposedly supportable?

Which of those two acquisitions is more of an affront to the BH? And, to address TR's phraseology, which would require the bigger box of tissues?

I've only got two Master's degrees; I'll leave this one to the fella with the Doctorate. But I will be watching.....

I agree with your first sentence.
Because you are not even comparing a fruit to a vegatable, let alone an apple to an orange.

Things from the OM usually trigger the BH. That is why the BH requires that the mattress, clothes, anything to do with the OM be removed.

An OC is not a material good. An OC is a person. To expect a WW to give up her child is a lot. Women do not normally want to give up their child. As seen in a movie or read a story a mother has no chance of escape, there is no room for her on the last train, boat, plain, car, whatever and she asks a stranger to take her child.

For some BH replacing the mattress on the dining room table and the sofa, and the kitchen floor is not enough to remove the OM's presence from the home so the whole house and contents must be sold. That is the BH's right.

Some BH can accept just buying a new mattress.

Some BH can accept not changing any thing in the home.

Some BH can accept the OC and some can not.

Some WW can give up their OC and some can not.

There are deal breakers to everything and that includes recovery.

The BH that can accept an OC that is the same race and can pass it off as his own to strangers.

Then there is the BH that can not accept an OC because it is esaily apparent that the OC is a mixed race and a public will know what his WW did to him.

There is the WW that already has 3 kids, ages 4, 7, 9, the OM is a dead beat. There have been WW that the gives up the mixed race OC because her BH will not accept the OC and she is putting the need of keeping the marriage intact to protect the COM.


****edit****

An OC is not a material good.

**edit

And a set of religious convictions IS a material good? **edit

**edit

Sometimes you do give ok advice.

Yes indubitably a religion is not a material good. **edit

As I stated before if a WW liked beer with her BH before the affair.

OM showed her how to appreciate and like wine and do tastings at winery's.

Now WW affair is over and WW wants to recover an have BH drink wine and take her to do tastings.

There is no way a WW should expect her BH to accept this change brought about by the OM.

When they married they were of the same faith. The BH expects his WW to maintain the family religion as an example for their children.

Now that there has been an affair and they are recovering the BH is in his right to not have his WW be an example of the OM's religion for his children.

**edit

Never Guessed,

All the WW had to do to convert was to recite the shahada in the OM's hotel room, (eeew)and poof, she was in. No study or learning is demanded beforehand, no testing by a religious court to determine if the conversion is genuine; not coerced. It is even possible to be forcibly converted in the same instant, as in girls who are kidnapped and forcibly "married" in Egypt, Syria and Jordan, where Christians live, and in India and Pakistan, where Hindus live. In this faith the girl's silence is deemed to be consent. Converts do not need to do their own research into doctrine or dogma. Nor are they required to read the holy books. Just submit and accept.

Children born of those unions are de facto presumed to be Muslims based on their father's religion. The mother's desires do not count.

Catholic converts attend classes for years if necessary, so that they understand what they are committing their lives to. They are tested, examined, they participate in the community and do service for the church whenever possible. They usually undergo a public baptism, usually in the Easter season.

I don't know about other Christian conversion practices.

Jewish converts must attend classes until they can answer questions put to them by the Beit Din (a religious court of 3 usually elderly rabbis who are skeptical of the convert's desire to join the tribe). Once the convert arrives at the point of facing the clergy they are pretty certain this is what they want, but it isn't unheard of for the clergy to refuse to convert the person if they don't believe the request is genuine.

The OM practiced deception and conquest by seducing a willing WW and further compounded it by making du'wa (asking her to convert) and bringing her out of Christianity, what is known as a "reversion". When she became too much trouble, she was discarded. And he is pretty much bulletproof. Nobody in his home country gives a rat's patoot if he slept with a married infidel woman and got her to convert. He got her to betray her husband AND her G-d. That gives him status.

At least justthe3's wife is back with him and he has a chance to restore their family. Time could bring her back to her senses as far as the conversion.

I understand WS and OPs can be beyond despicable, but your final statement is patently untrue. Making what most certainly appear to be naive assumptions and falsely denigrating a religion as lauding adultery is detracting from what this site is about and what board members can best help this poster with.

**edit

**edit

This WW has to give up Islam.

Her BH is just to demand so.

There is nothing P or O or J or A.

**edit

I agree with you TR.

She converted in the fog of adultery, and in any case Islam is totally incompatible with any religion that might be in his house at present. It WILL be a recurring fight. They cannot be a united front if they are this different religiously.

Well, my situation has sparked quite a debate among some veteran posters here.

I just sent an e-mail to Dr. Harley regarding the Muslim issue, and I hope that he will provide all of us some clarity on the issue.

Karma,

I am Catholic through and through, yet had I met and fallen in love with my wife when she were already Muslim, her religion would not be a deal breaker for me. The issue is not religious differences but the fact that she did "Shahada" (profession of faith) with her affair partner. He is the source of her conversion.

Parenthetically, had she been Muslim before we married, she would not be allowed to marry me. Muslim woman cannot marry outside of the faith. Muslim men, however, are free to do so.

Huh. so for her, religiously, she wouldn't be married to you? Or is it because you would be "renewing" your vows in a catholic church? I am truly ignorant in all of this, myself not being a member of any religion myself, practicing or otherwise.

I was referring to our first marriage 20 years ago, not our imminent re-marriage. It was a parenthetical comment, which perhaps I should have left out since it only caused confusion. But I made it to be factually accurate so as not be corrected by anyone with knowledge of Muslim beliefs.

Not at all untrue. It's not adultery if the woman is not a believer. Just3's WW is a conquest; their marriage doesn't count. Read Reliance of the Traveller, 09.13. That part deals with sex with married women, whose marriages are ended at the moment of their capture. They are called "Those that your right hands own" and the women are spoils of war.
Their marriages can be "poof" dissolved at the conquest, the women are the rightful property of the conquerer. Demonstrating that men cannot protect their own women is an age old practice of war. Slavery,rape and sale of conquered women and children has canonic approval in the Koran.

Most moderate Muslims don't practice that aspect of the faith, but unlike in Judiasm and Christianity, which evolved toward more tolerance, those early ideas have never been erased or evolved to a pacific ideal. A truly devout believer can find justifications in the holy books as well as from present day clergy. Examples abound on the 'net, easily found with a search.

The shahada says there is no G-d but Allah. ie, the G-d of the Jews and Christ, the Son of G-d, are false G-ds. The OM netted a convert.

What matters now is that this Catholic couple heal their marriage and return Christ into their lives. Which we can pray will happen.

Having grown up in half Muslim ( arabic mothers side) half catholic (Italian fathers side) family I can tell you that neither man or woman in the Muslim faith are permitted to marry outside of their religion. My father had to convert (although it was only for show not real beliefs on his side) to Islam in order for my grandfather to permit him to marry my mother.

Islam beleifs are based on the fact that as each religion developed (first judaism then Christianity then Islam) it improved therefore you can go forwards but not backwards, a Muslim can't convert to anything, a Jewish person can convert to Islam or Christianity and a Christian can convert to Islam but not become Jewish.

Muslim faith is also very against affairs and in extreme Muslim countries is punishable by death. Your wife's sahada will never be accepted by any real Muslim because it took place out of sin.

I know there is wide knowledge that a Muslim man is permitted to marry up to 4 women but very few people are aware that a man cannot take on a second third or 4th wife without the written agreement and knowledge of the first, second or third wife. My aunts husband took on a second wife without her knowledge she reported him to the authorities, he was jailed and his second marriage annulled.

I chose to be Christian but that's not because the Muslim faith is bad, it just wasn't right or me.

Like any other major religion there are misinterpretations and people who will twist the faiths principals to suit their purpose but Islam has a particularly bad wrap.

I am not against Islam I am against anyone who converts to any religion because their affair partner was into it. I don't understand how you can not be triggered negatively by your wife's new faith and why you are not making it a condition of recovery that she cuts any links to her A including this faith.

my post got lost not retyping it

This is the point. As I stated previously, a fundamentally misguided discussion about aspects of the OM's religious practice is nothing but detracting from the stated goals of this poster.

Christ can't be in their lives in the way that it is wished because her new religion does not, to my knowledge, recognize him as the son of god. It's not compatible.

I am simply worried about clashes of this sort being a major source of LB in future.

I am not arguing about what they do or don't do religiously, karma. It is up to the OP and his (F)WW to determine the logistics of religious reconciliation in their marriage. I am merely pointing out that it is completely unnecessary to denigrate and erroneously attribute religious sanction to an OM's (= an adulterer's!) actions in light of the attempted reconciliation between the OP and his (F)WW. Such speculation about the OM's religious inclinations has nothing to do w/ helping the OP or his (F)WW get their marriage back on track.

I've been mulling over this situation for a few days and I think it boils own to these debate nugget(s):

1 - Are there some things that a BH can realistically demand that a returning WW discard from her life, as tainted by its association with WW's life with POSOM?

The answer obviously is YES. Any jewelry POSOM gave to WW must be discarded by WW at BH's demand. Clothing? Yes. Virtually any material item would be subject to BH's demand for elimination.

2 - Are there some things acquired by WW via her association withe POSOM that cannot realistically be ordered discarded by BH, in effect being so tightly linked to WW that accepting her return means accepting those items as well? WW and the item in question would in practical application be a "package deal" - both, or neither.

Again the answer would have to be YES, with the OC being the perfect example. I cannot think of an environment in which a BH could accept the WW back, on the condition she give up her infant, and the WW would chose to accede.

So the question before us (or me anyway) is that of deciding on a method of "sorting what might be encountered. And yes, some of these things are fantastic, but the way to understand reality is to consider extremes, even unto fantasy.

So where do these fit? Would it be feasible that a BH demand, and WW agree to, their elimination, removal, rejection or declining?

- WW returns with a new tattoo, a butterfly on her hip
- WW returns with a new tattoo, POSOM's initials on her breast
- WW returns with a new tattoo, "POSOM has the world's best tool!", on her forearm
- WW returns with a new kidney, paid for by POSOM's money/insurance
- WW returns with a new kidney, donated by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, including a diamond set in her tooth, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with a drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's easy lifestyle
- WW returns cured of a prior drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's ascetic lifestyle
- WW returns, having completed a college degree funded by POSOM
- WW returns, having converted to POSOM's religion
- WW finds belief/comfort in POSOM's religion where she had no faith before
- WW returns, having rejected religion entirely while living with POSOM

As I said before, I don't have the answers to this set of questions, but thinking of these possibilities might lead someone to the overarching paradigm that seems so unclear now.

I had a long discussion with my wife last night. She agrees with NB28's assertion that her "Shahada" was invalid because of the adultery associated with it. She renounced her association with Islam and will no longer follow its prescribed practices, such as praying at the mosque, praying five times a day, and reading the Quaran.

She has trouble with the idea of the Holy Trinity, and says she always has. She believes in one god, the Father, and doesn't accept the divinity of Jesus.

She also rejects much of what she learned about Islam. And she has no desire to study the Quaran.

She will continue to pray, and she will attend Mass with us. I am not pressuring her in any way to do so. She even calls herself Catholic. But Catholics recite the Nicene Creed at Mass, which is an expressed belief in the Holy Trinity. This, of course, conflicts with her personal beliefs.

I can live with her nebulous status, and she can too. I will not pressure her into believing the concept of the Holy Trinity and the teachings of the Church, but I will use gentle persuasion when opportunities present themselves.

In the meantime, we continue to get better and better in our recovery.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

Wonderful news.

By the way, the trinity concept is a difficult one and has to be accepted as a mystery, but as your wife has renounced the conversion out of Catholicism, your recovery is closer. Very happy for your family.

My 2 cents. the bible says if u have an unbelieving spouse, u need not say anything to them. Just live a christian life, the way God commands and it will be easy for her to come around. And they'll know we are christians by our love

There has been no specualtion about the OM, he is a muslim.

"unnecessary to denigrate and erroneously attribute religious sanction to an OM's "

Explain in English.

I've been mulling over this situation for a few days and I think it boils own to these debate nugget(s):

1 - Are there some things that a BH can realistically demand that a returning WW discard from her life, as tainted by its association with WW's life with POSOM?

The answer obviously is YES. Any jewelry POSOM gave to WW must be discarded by WW at BH's demand. Clothing? Yes. Virtually any material item would be subject to BH's demand for elimination.

2 - Are there some things acquired by WW via her association withe POSOM that cannot realistically be ordered discarded by BH, in effect being so tightly linked to WW that accepting her return means accepting those items as well? WW and the item in question would in practical application be a "package deal" - both, or neither.

Again the answer would have to be YES, with the OC being the perfect example. I cannot think of an environment in which a BH could accept the WW back, on the condition she give up her infant, and the WW would chose to accede.


There have been OC�s where the OM was black and the WW and BH were white and the WW gave up the OC for adoption. There was one story where the family already had 3 kids oldest one 12. OM did not want to support or see the OC and left the building. To keep the family intact the WW gave up the mixed OC to adoption because the BH could not accept the public embarrassment.


So the question before us (or me anyway) is that of deciding on a method of "sorting what might be encountered. And yes, some of these things are fantastic, but the way to understand reality is to consider extremes, even unto fantasy.

So where do these fit? Would it be feasible that a BH demand, and WW agree to, their elimination, removal, rejection or declining?

- WW returns with a new tattoo, a butterfly on her hip


Tattoo was never POJA, it must go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new tattoo, POSOM's initials on her breast


Tattoo was never POJA it msut go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new tattoo, "POSOM has the world's best tool!", on her forearm


Tattoo was never POJA, it must go, see a plastic surgeon


- WW returns with a new kidney, paid for by POSOM's money/insurance
- WW returns with a new kidney, donated by POSOM


Being price for a kidney transplant is $269,900 and if the BH does not have the money he can�t have her get rid of it. Though the BH can require his WW get up a job and take all the money she makes and sets it a side until she saves the $269,900 and have a new transplant done. The problem with that is the medical profession will not do such and an operation when WW�s new kidneys are still functioning well.

So though the BH can take that money $269,900 that WW saved since the start of recovery and pay the OM back.




- WW returns with new dental work, paid for by POSOM
- WW returns with new dental work, including a diamond set in her tooth, paid for by POSOM


WW can not have a root canal undone but she can get a job, save the money, give the money to her BH and have him pay the OM Back.


- WW returns with a drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's easy lifestyle


Recovery will not happen unless WW agrees to rehab and IC.


- WW returns cured of a prior drug/alcohol dependency, from living POSOM's ascetic lifestyle


This is nothing that was given. It was a choice for WW to get sober. As in a choice by the WW to have an affair and a choice to end it.


- WW returns, having completed a college degree funded by POSOM


Good for WW improving. She can�t not unlearn her education. But as for everything else that the OM provided that can not physically be returned WW can get a job save he money, OM gets paid back. WW and BH not in debt to OM.


- WW returns, having converted to POSOM's religion


Unacceptable, WW wants to recover she has to renounce conversion for OM.


- WW finds belief/comfort in POSOM's religion where she had no faith before


Does not change anything. WW must renounce for recovery. A WW that can not see herself maintaining the OM religion is to rub and slap the OM religion in her BH�s face will never be remorseful enough for recovery to work. WW made change to make OM happy, she has no leg to stand on to not change back and make her BH happy.


- WW returns, having rejected religion entirely while living with POSOM


WW was the same religion as her BH before marrying and agreeing to marry and raise their children in that religion needs to support her family and encourage her children to follow the faith. WW did this for her OM, she has no leg to stand on that she can't do it for her BH.


As I said before, I don't have the answers to this set of questions, but thinking of these possibilities might lead someone to the overarching paradigm that seems so unclear now.

TR, you do realize that the LARGE sums of money you blithely expect WW to generate to repay POSOM are not going to be instantaneously (if EVER) available in any world but yours, right? So until the entire transplant/dental/college bill is paid off, WW is shunted off to a convent someplace? (Do they really pay that well in a convent?)

And, btw: you also chose to ignore that monies earned by a returned WW would otherwise be marital property, so in effect, you as the BH would be okay with paying your half of her earnings to POSOM? It seems odd to want to reimburse his outlays incurred while banging your WW during her period of infidelity.

But, if that were your path, you should follow it. Do we have any other thoughts?

TR, you do realize that the LARGE sums of money you blithely expect WW to generate to repay POSOM are not going to be instantaneously (if EVER) available in any world but yours, right? So until the entire transplant/dental/college bill is paid off, WW is shunted off to a convent someplace? (Do they really pay that well in a convent?)


I do not treat those large sums of money in an inconsequential manor.

WW will just have to work and set a side half of her income until the amount is paid off. Yes a 269,900 kidney transplant will take 26.99 years to pay off at $10,000 a year.

The point is all gifts must be returned to the OM. The WW can not take the kidney out and hand it back to the OM. Though if the WW could place the kidney back into the OM's hand (which her BH would have to do because the WW and OM must maintain NC) would not cancel the debt because the OM will not be able to go up to a hospital and sell it to the hospital for $1 let alone get the $269,900 back. Without that the debt/gift can never be returned.

As to your remarks about convents. Get real. How delusion are you? I never mentioned convents. Stop grasping at straws to try making a point that is not there.

WW starts recovery which has to include WW getting a job and commits to paying of her debt. Whether it takes 1 year or 30 years.
This is know as having a consequence of having an affair.


And, btw: you also chose to ignore that monies earned by a returned WW would otherwise be marital property, so in effect, you as the BH would be okay with paying your half of her earnings to POSOM? It seems odd to want to reimburse his outlays incurred while banging your WW during her period of infidelity.


I am surprised that you consider reimbursing the OM for his expenses while dating a WW and having the WW return all of the OM's gifts as one in the same.

Same as if WW left the home at bought a new car when she separated from a BH and left to live with the OM. The affair is over WW is in recovery. WW has to sell the car to get rid of the loan or the BH has to accept that $500 a month of WW salary is going to pay that loan for the next 5 years.

Yes the WW and BH family budget will hurt for 5 years. Again a consequence of the affair.

But, if that were your path, you should follow it. Do we have any other thoughts?

My "convent" citation was a form of ironic commentary, TR. I'll reduce my scheme of construction if you can't keep up, okay?

So, simply:

If the WW does not have whatever amount is required to repay POSOM at the time of her possible return, does the TR code allow for her return to the marriage "on spec"? If she falls behind on the payment schedule, does she get expelled? Does your proposal include increasing the payment to be repaid by "the time value of money" aka "interest"?

**edit**

You DO understand that sentences are constructed, don't you? That fact is supposedly learned in high school.

**edit**

Please stop disrupting this thread. Stay on topic and help the poster or kindly refrain from posting.

Thank you, Bellevue! I explained to her that the concept is a mystery of faith even to the doctors of the Church, who explain it so well. Thank you for your insights.

We have a cross in our house that has inscribed on it the verse from John 13: 35. "By this all men will know know they you are my disciples: If you love one another."

I do agree that the example of faith that is set has far more impact than words or efforts to nudge her back. Thank you.

I heard your call today.
I would not follow Harley's advice and I would run from your ex wife. That's my opinion.

The letter I wrote to Dr. Harley regarding my wife's faith was answered on his radio program today.

Here is a link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio/radio.html

This link will only work for 1/22/13. After that, you'll have to find it in the archives.

In my letter to Dr. Harley I shared the history with him, including the affairs, the implementation of marriage builders principles, and our recovery. I ended with a question about her conversion.

He and Joyce both expressed delight in the recovery of the marriage since the EP's, POJA, and Radical Honesty were conditions of reconciliation. He did not mention anything about us living together unmarried (I did mention that we are going to be re-marrying very soon.) His advice was for me to NOT forbid my wife to be a Muslim, but to learn more about the faith and engage her in respectful discussions. Respectful persuasion was the term he used. He felt that her conversion was from the heart and was not a residual property of the affair, and that I should not let it be a trigger. He went so far as to say that in a mixed marriage, the kids should be exposed to both religions and given the choice when they become old enough. He said that there is an 80% chance that she will return to her Catholic faith.

So there you have it. Dr. Harley's "prescriptions" are often counter-intuitive. This one is for sure. I'm going to strongly consider his advice. I will probably accept it, but I want to give myself 24 hours to think it over. My wife has already told me that there are many Muslim beliefs that she doesn't believe, so it may be moot anyway. One thing is certain: I will not allow my two daughters to be reverted to Islam while they are minors. I can't go along with that program. My wife has told me that she doesn't want them to be Muslim anyway.

I am curious to see my wife's response. She hasn't listened to the program yet.

He also encouraged you to attend mosque.
Do you intend to do that?
This is where you should listen to your bishop and ask him if he feel you should attend mosque.
I would NOT expose my kids to Muslim nor have anything to do with **EDIT**

In fact if you attended mosque and prayed with them you may be subject to Church discipline.
They deny the HolyTrinity and as such do not pray to the Christian God but a false one

Well......I agree with Dr. Harley.

Use respectful discussion and learn more about the muslim faith.

Knowledge about other faiths is bridge building. To not only your wife but all of humanity.

You have a choice.
Stay within the faith and not follow MB (refuse to raise children Muslim and refuse to deny the Church and doctrines); this will be a love buster as he explained on the program

OR

Deny the faith and study Islam, attend mosque etc and save your marriage.

I just encourage you to remember the words of our Savior: If you deny me before men on earth I will deny you before my Father in heaven.

I've been thinking about you all day. I'm really sorry this has happened.

A Christian can learn about other faiths and still not 'deny' their own.

Jedi,

Thank you for your concern.

I am in no danger of converting to Islam. I am and will always be true to my Catholic faith.

But I don't hold the belief that those in other faiths are doomed to damnation.

By the way, it was through prayer that my wife claims she was directed away from her affair partner and back to her marriage.

The Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword

Maybe I'm on ignore but I'll ask again...are you requiring any sort of pre-nup to safeguard your finances and custody?

How old are your DDs?

A reminder to posters that the purpose of our board is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts. If you disagree with a part of Dr. Harley's approach, the place to discuss it is not on the thread of another poster seeking help with their marriage.

I will not be doing a prenup. My girls are 10 and 13 years old.

Here's a radio clip about MB working with different cultures.

Radio Clip on MB Working with Different Cultures

Well the challenge is that she is not a different culture.
Her affair partner was.
She just did whatever she could to please him.

Here's another radio clip about converting to Islam during an affair also being a trigger.
Radio Clip

Update:

I gave up the Internet for Lent, so I have been away for the past few weeks. In that time, my ex wife and I remarried. We had a small ceremony in which we renewed our vows. Only our two daughters and my step dad were there. It was intimate and special. We are both so happy and so grateful that we have a second chance at marriage and this opportunity to save our family. Our children are too, of course.

We continue to follow the MB plan, and we have noticed that the most important thing for our relationship is to get in our 15 hours of time together alone. When we put in the time and have dates, the feelings of love and connectedness are empowered.

I still suffer through triggers and the anger is still there, but my wife has done all that she has been asked to atone. For almost two years her affair was a complete mystery to me. I now know everything that happened. Till the very end, he wanted to marry her. He is a millionaire so she walked away from a lot of money...but also a lifetime of grief. He is not a good catch in spite of his means.

The religion issue is big, and I will never happily accept her conversion to Islam. But as Dr. Harley says in the radio program linked by BrainHurts, one cannot control the faith of another. She must be free to follow her beliefs, and I cannot force her to leave Islam. I will not pressure her. Islam will always be a trigger, but I also believe that she is sincere in her new-found faith. It no longer has anything to do with the POSOM. (There has been no contact since she left him in early December.)

BrainHurt,thanks for the link. Dr. Harley and Joyce were referring to me and my wife in that clip. The person who wrote to them had listened to the show where my situation was discussed, and she had a hard time with Dr. Harley's advice.

That's an inspiring update. I'm truly happy for you and your wife. Just don't stop using the concepts in your marriage.

Does anyone have a link to MelodyLane's thread on cutting corners? I've been looking for this and haven't found it!

Much happiness wished for you and your family.

Stay vigilant about following the MB guidelines and about your wife's activities.

Does she attend a mosque or is she practicing her new chosen faith privately and alone?

Is this the one?
Cutting Corners and the Marriage Builders Plan

Justthe3ofus,

I'm so happy for you.

How are you going to handle the trigger of her religion?

Thank you Tranquil, Reading, and Brain.

Both of us are following the program, and we are overjoyed to have found lost love. I have learned that it is sweeter to reclaim something precious that was lost than to discover something new. We both appreciate each other more now that we have been apart for so long, and we don't plan on letting history repeat itself. Avoiding LB's and meeting each other's needs are a lifestyle from now on.

Reading, she prays at Mosque on Fridays, and she also prays privately in the house. She attends Mass with the girls and me. She doesn't take communion, of course, but she comes to be with the family in our time of worship.

Brain, the triggers from her religion are there, but they are less frequent. There are times when they spike, and I have to get better at not lashing out and not saying something about Islam that might be deemed disrespectful. I have always had a respect for the other major faiths (Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism), but at the same time as a Christian, I believe that Jesus is the way and the light, so I will never completely reconcile my wife--a lifelong Catholic--leaving the faith. Truly respecting her beliefs will be a process I have to go through. By the way, she is a very prayerful person. She loves the Muslim precept of praying 5 times a day. She told me when she came back that it was through prayer that God directed back to me and her children.

That's just awesome! Made this old marine tear up a bit hopefully I can use that line and my WW as well soon.
I have learned that it is sweeter to reclaim something precious that was lost than to discover something new.

Tranquil, I hope you and your WW happily reconcile soon. All the best to you.

Is this you?

Radio Clip

I AM SO GLAD I FOUND THIS STORY. I HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH SOMETHING SIMILAR AND I FEEL VERY ENCOURAGE READING THIS. I CAN'T BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW GOOD THIS MAKES ME FEEL TO KNOW THAT YOUR WIFE AND YOU ARE BACK IN LOVE. I HOPE THE SAME CAN BE SAME FOR US.

Sorry for all caps but I am overwhelmed with Joy.

CS,

I'm glad my story was helpful. It's been a year since my wife and I began recovery, and our marriage (We re-married in March of this year) has never been better. We are deeply in love with each other and cannot imagine life apart. Recently she texted me this:

"Last year around this time [before we started speaking to each other again] my sister asked me who I see with me on my deathbed. I said, "Justthe3ofus and the kids." That's when I realized I still loved you. I wanted to get you back before I lost you forever. I'm very sorry for everything."

Our recovery has been great. We experienced the stage of conflict that couples have to get through in order to go from withdrawal to intimacy. The conflict was difficult, but we worked through it. They say it takes two years to fully recover. Though I still have some resentment, it is a sliver of how I felt before she came back. That is because when my wife returned she delivered on just compensation, which I insisted on. She met all of the conditions I required (extraordinary precautions), and she came on board with the Marriage Builders program. She follows the concepts of POJA, radical honesty, and 15 hours of undivided attention. She has recommended Dr. Harley's books to friends, and has sent them copies.

I will never forget the deep emotional toll this took on us, and my heart goes out to you and others who come here for help.

Melody Lane wrote something that I never forgot, and that I shared with my wife when she left me:

"Falling out of love is problem to solve, not an excuse to have an affair and give up on your marriage."

Though I did not spend too much time trying to educate my wife (because that doesn't work for someone in the fog), I did hold her accountable with those words, and they helped build a paradigm in my mind for how couples should persevere to rekindle the flames of love and passion that they once shared at the start.

This program works if couples are willing to get past their feelings and follow it. As we say here, feelings follow action. If you do the things that build love (no love busters, and meet your spouses emotional needs)while in Plan A you will have a chance to recover your marriage because your actions will create a change in you that may also create a change of heart in your wayward wife. In Plan A this means you must discipline your mind to follow the plan and not let your natural reactions and emotions steer you off course. Put on blinders and make the love deposits and avoid the love busters. But don't forget the stick of Plan A. That means expose, don't validate the affair, and don't apologize for keeping firm boundaries that protect your safety. And always remember that the first step to recovery is killing the affair. It must be dead as a doornail before any next steps can be effective.

At first one person has to take the lead. When you are the betrayed spouse, remember that Plan A means you are throwing pebbles and rocks in a rushing river with the hope of building a bridge to cross over the other side. At first the exercise seems futile. But if you keep throwing in the rocks over time the bridge will emerge from the river and you be able to cross and reconnect with your spouse.

As we say, Plan A with no expectation. It doesn't always take the wayward spouse out of the fog. I didn't think it would work for me. I thought my wife was gone forever. I didn't think the aliens would give her back her mind. But you just never know.

Even if it fails, you know you have done your best to save your marriage and to become a better husband in the future. The beautiful thing about those who follow Dr. Harley's principles is that they become better people and better spouses.

Good luck and God bless!

Thats wonderful!
Your last paragraph hits home for me.
I did Plan A and followed the SAA guidelines and advice from the wonderful people on the forum.
In the end I lost my marriage BUT I can honestly tell anyone "I did the best job I could to save my marriage".......and that's a good feeling

Wow, Just - thank you for sharing your story. I'm so happy for you two and your family that your recovery has been so good and so complete.

Best wishes for a lifetime of love together!

As always, thanks for the update.

Love hearing MB success stories.

Was that latest clip I posted, on your thread, yours?

Hi BH,

Sorry I missed your post on 12/4. I just discovered it this evening. I was surprised to see my thread had re-emerged from the heap. Yes, that clip was about my wife and me. I wrote Dr. Harley to ask him a question about an issue that came up in the forums regarding exposure. I wanted to make sure I was giving the right advice so I wrote in. I prefaced my question with an update on our marriage, and did not know that that part of my letter made it on the show. Thanks for dropping the link. You are the master cataloger! What a memory you have!

Jedi and Marcos,
Thank you for your replies. It's been a long road, and now I take very seriously the "paying it forward role." That's why I post here. I'm sure its the same for the rest of us.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Impossible to more then everything that can be done.

Have you legally remarried?

Yes, we legally re-married last March.
In the Church it was a renewal of vows.

Triggers. My wife and are over 1 year into recovery and things are going very well. But there are triggers along the way and some that will never go away. The disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight 370 has re-surfaced the ugly past. My wife flew that airline on her trips to Malaysia where her affair parnter lives. Her affair partner had a connection to the Malaysian Prime Minister, serving in some advisory capacity, and we have seen his face on television frequently this week. My wife met the Prime Minister on one of her trips over there. All of the news coverage brings back a lot of memories. She is reliving her experiences, and I am too.

We are both doing fine, and none of this has been a set back. It's just not fun. My heart does go out to the poor people who were passengers and crew on the plane and their relatives who are in an awful state of suspended grief.

I think you need to turn off the news ...

Yea, turn off the Maylasia news and change to the Russian/ ukraine news.

Ha ha, turn off the tv and go for a walk outside instead.

It'll pass, 3. Glad to hear that you guys are doing well.

Or watch Walking Dead its an awesome show lol.

Haha. Love the zombie genre, but can't connect with the characters in that series. It seems a little like George Romero gone soap opera. Love Romero, but soap operas? Not so much.

But speaking of AMC, Breaking Bad held my attention from start to finish. A profane show, but a guilty pleasure I must admit.

You're not alone...Dr. Harley himself watches Breaking Bad

Love that show as well. "I am the one who knocks"

We all have our triggers that come at us from a blind curve. News. People in elevators, signs on freeways, etc.

Very true, Reading. And as time passes they become less hurtful.

Justthe3ofus,

I just wanted to chime in and say how much your story has encouraged me. My wife is currently engaged in an affair that has been going on for at least six months (eight or nine if you count the EA). She filed for divorce in August, and we're still headed in that direction. I haven't done a very good job in Plan A, so I was feeling bad about that, but it was encouraging to see that you had some missteps, too, and yet your wife still found her way back.

God bless!

I was reading through this thread last night as Justthe3ofus has given me a lot of encouragement and I wanted to see his story, and I thought of your situation nmwb77 since this involved a recovery after the divorce. Great story here.

Yes, axslinger, this story is wonderful! Dare I say it looked almost as hopeless as my situation...or maybe even more hopeless... At least in my situation, my wife can't marry her AP (at least for now).

Well, sad news.

My wife and I recovered our marriage after getting divorced due to her affair in 2011. The past four years have been good up till now.

Recently I took my daughter on a college tour and at the end of the tour she told me that she saw her mom (my wife) on her phone cam with another man. She was all made up. She told my daughter that she was just talking to a friend from England. It was very hard for my daughter to break the news to me. She is very angry at her mother for doing this. Long story short, after further investigation I leaned that my wife has gone back to chat rooms (the same source of her first infidelity) and has been skyping with other men.

And so after gathering enough evidence I confronted her and told her that the marriage is over. I had told her before that if this happened again, I would divorce her.

She said that she is not a relationship with another man, and that is probably true. She said she only did it to fill her mind. She loves sex of the mind. My wife is kinky and she likes BDSM. I am fairly conventional. We have great sex, but there are areas that go unfulfilled for her. She's a teacher and has been off work this summer, so she got bored and turned to chat rooms again.

Still, trolling for mind sex is not okay with me even if she did nothing physical. Further, I know where this leads.

I hate to throw it all away over this, but I'm not willing to go through this again. I'm not willing to enable her for a third time.

Heading to divorce is devastating and runs counter to my values, but I feel I need to do this. She is willing to leave the house but I think she would rather stay married. She still loves me, but not very much. Maybe she'll realize again that I am the love of her life (as she did the last time we divorced), but you only die twice in this life.

I'm sorry to report this news as others here may find it discouraging as they work to recover their own marriages. To them I would say, keep at it. I am still very thankful that Marriage Builders helped me to recover my marriage the first time around.

Very sad news. You have given it your best.

I'm so sorry.

I want to say many other things, but that would involve breaking the rules on profanity.

Sorry.

This is eminently recoverable, though.

If you cannot stomach going through recovery ever again that 's fair enough, but you, like she would rather stay married, then that is what you should work towards. It would take her willingness to implement the extraordinary precautions that you probably already know much about, and the additional stringency that goes with recovery when serial cheating is involved. Most importantly, she would probably have to work in an all-female environment and be monitored for Internet use at work (that might be possible in some teaching jobs), or she would have to give up working outside the home. She would agree never to use electronic communications without your being present.

Would you say that, after the last affair, you fully implemented the list of EPs on Dr Harley's list?

Have you properly exposed this affair? Do you know anything about the "friend from England"? Can you expose on his side? You should expose properly even if you intend to divorce.

Would she be willing for you both to write to Dr Harley? I know that he could help you recover for good, if there is any doubt in your mind about pursuing divorce.

Have ya'll been spending nights apart?

How is it possible for her to be in chatrooms without you immediately knowing?

Have you been spending 15-30 hours a week on dates meeting her emotional needs?

Thank you, everyone, for your replies.

To answer some of the questions:

Yes, I gave my wife the list of EP's and they were agreed upon. I told her in clear terms that if she fooled around again I would not give her another chance.

We did not meet the full 15 hours UA time. We went on dates a lot, took weekends together together alone occasionally, and go on evening walks together, but we didn't meet the allotted minutes. That played a part in her boredom. However, what led her to chat rooms was her idle time alone in the summer. I work in the summers and she's off. She has been on her phone nonstop and she will lock the door to our room when the kids are home with her.

My job doesn't require a lot of travel; however, I do most of the parenting with our teenage daughters. I have been very involved with our youngest daughter's basketball activities, which my wife doesn't get involved with. Coaching her team takes time and so does going to her games and tournaments, which on rare occasions require weekends away from home. So I played a part in this.

Regardless, she has a restless heart and there is a history of this with her mother and father.

SC, I will consider writing Dr. Harley. Thank you for that advice. At this point I don't want to continue the marriage, but a part of me is struggling with filing for a legal separation.

To me, that's just an extremely unfair thing to do to a woman.

It bothers me somewhat that you say this, and also what you said about BDSM, as if they are innate aspects of her that cannot be controlled.

It could be that she has a "restless heart" - or that she needs the thrill of knowing that men find her attractive; that she is addicted to knowing that she can "pull" as we say over here, anytime she wants...but we are all like that, to some extent. We are all wired to have affairs. She may be more so than average, but I'm not sure you've EPd your life so that she does not go seeking opportunities. By that I mean both from the point of view of having a fulfilling marriage, and also of not having the space for a secret second life. if you've been coaching your daughter's team, that probably took up a lot of time that you could have spent with your wife.

And as for her mother and father: when he was young, Dr Harley worked out that every man in his direct line, for a few generations, had had affairs. That didn't mean that he did the same thing; in fact it made him determined to be the opposite.

I'm sorry if this sounds like criticism, but I just don't think you've done recovery the way Dr Harley advises, and I would urge you to reconsider going through with your threat...if there is a small part of you that does not want divorce.

Has your wife given you the BDSM argument as the reason why she does what she does? How did she hope to have that "need" fulfilled over the Internet?

Marcos,

I will be ignoring your posts and your wife's. Just letting you know out of consideration for your time.

That's okay. I will continue to let all of the onlookers know that the program doesn't work when you don't follow the policy of undivided attention and also how unfair it is to any woman to expect her not to be restless when she doesn't get her emotional needs met. Hopefully we will warn some people not to make the same mistakes. This is like expecting a man to remain in a sexless marriage.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. You never recovered your marriage because you still spend nights apart and you are neglecting UA. You never became integrated (if you had, she would not have been able to get into a chat without you knowing). You didn't recover -- you simply pushed the inevitable further down the road.

Your story should be a warning to anyone reading about what happens when you cherry-pick the program.

Yes, I understand SC. All fair points that I will consider. I've seen her tendencies and they are hard for her to run away from, and I don't think she has a desire to. She is open about them. She was clear with me that her internet trists were not physical and that she was just getting her mind fix. For her, its the mind games that get her turned on. So internet works fine for her.

Those EPs include never spending the night apart and having UA time. They were for you to follow as well. If you're not following them, why should she?

You didn't really answer my question. Does she use the argument about her "tendencies" to explain why she was back on chat rooms?

To put it another way: what has she said about why she did this again?

This takes my breath away.

Why are you ignoring them?

After years of reading their replies to others who post here asking for help, I have ignored them a long time now. But I never say anything because its not my thread. This is my thread, so I am saving them time by letting them know. To answer your question, I believe that they take pleasure in giving out the 2x4's. I've always considered there approach to be perverse and I've always been really put off by it. They have a very strong grasp of MB teachings for sure, but I believe they get their jollies hammering those who come here. By the way, I'm not against 2x4's. They are very important. I have bonked many with them myself here, and I have received them when deserved and took it like a man. And please know that I am acutely aware of my own shortcomings in this particular situation I find myself in. I'm not excusing myself.

Finally, I am dealing with something far more important than personality conflicts on the MB Guidance Forum right now so that is my last comment on them.

She said she was bored and she needed to get a fix for her "mind sex" needs.

If that's what she said, why did you tell us it was because of BDSM needs?

Do you realise that you are disrespectfully judging her by describing what you think she really feels?

I said it because she herself has lumped BDSM with the mind games that she enjoys.

My daughter is fuming mad at her mother right now. They are very close, but at this moment DD can't stand being around WW. Before this blew up, we were scheduled to take a family vacation with more college visits. DD doesn't want to go if her mom is going.

Even though I have told my wife that we are separating permanently, I feel that she should go with us on this vacation if she wants to. She works very hard as a teacher and is excellent at it. She deserves a vacation and hasn't had one yet. Even though I am very angry with her and deeply hurt by what she has done, I feel she should go if she wants to. But if she goes, DD will be miserable and we will get nothing out of the visits. This isn't DD being a brat. She just can't abide by her mother right now. I have been clear with her that she has a right to her feelings, and her feelings are not misplaced. But she must still respect her mom even if she doesn't respect her recent actions.

Getting back to this trip, the college visits are what are most important. This is my last block of time to take DD to see colleges that she may attend, and so I don't want her to miss this opportunity. It's a quandary.

And you don't think that your daughter's college is equally important to your wife and not just your problem? The fact that you place it before your marriage says much. Your daughter is quite capable of deciding this without you holding her hand. If she is not capable, then she isn't ready for college, anyway. In ten years, the college trips will be long forgotten, but what you do about your failing marriage will be in full force. Your priorities are wrong.

You are right, Mr. Eureka. But I have already given up on the marriage. Sugar Cane has given me something to think about, but ultimately I believe my wife will do this again. I no longer trust her and she has depleted my love bank. The piggy bank has shattered.

I quit.

I propose the following thought to you:

Have you given up on your marriage specifically or have you given up on marriage globally?

If you have given up on marriage globally, then you have made the right choice. But, if you have given up on this specific marriage and have hopes of establishing a future successful marriage, then you need to face the fact that the best likelihood for you ever experiencing a successful marriage lies in a marriage with your current spouse. There are many reasons why this is so, and you should already know these if you are a diligent student of MB. So, think beyond your current emotions. What is your goal? You don't want to cut off your nose to spite your face.

I get my jollies helping people avoid mistakes that can ruin their marriage and their life.

I don't take any pleasure in people simply not listening. The mistakes catch up to people, each and every time.

I would get my jollies from having a large mass of men in our culture rise up and realize that it's unfair and unrealistic to expect a woman to live in a marriage without sufficient attention from her husband, and for those men to realize that the best thing they can do for their children is to give their children's mother a happy marriage.

What I'm seeing is that you didn't want to follow the policy of undivided attention, so you didn't do it. Regardless of my internal motivations, you wouldn't have done this anyway. You don't want to hear that this could never work like that because according to Dr. Harley a marriage cannot recover from an affair unless it becomes better than it was before the affair. You returned to the status quo for your wife, not better for your wife, and so it didn't work.

You don't want to hear that and so you blame it on me and my wife's feelings and approach.

You may not listen but hopefully at least I can reach the lurkers.

Regardless of what you think of my motivation, the fact remains that you did not follow the program. You yourself did not follow the EPs. You set your wife up to fail.

If you ever intend to remarry, these marriage wrecking behaviors of yours will need to be changed, or any future marriage you have will also fail.

I am SO sorry to hear this, Just.

What she did is not acceptable. EVEN if you weren�t meeting her needs 100%. She crossed your well laid out boundaries. So I can see why you want to divorce.

I am so glad that you had the courage to share the bad news and post for support.

Your wife obviously needs stimulation from the opposite sex. Another name for that stimulation could be romance. Or it could also be that she is an addict and needs excessive stimulation. You know that you were not following the plan 100%, but that doesn�t justify her going outside the marriage.

Having been in a situation similar to yours, with a spouse who needed high levels of stimulation to maintain happiness, I would recommend that you run all of this past Dr. Harley. He might bring some things up with you that you had never considered.

It is so difficult to be hurt like this after ALL you have done to save your marriage after betrayal. Please tell me that you will at least email Dr. Harley your post and ask for his input. I say this not to talk you out of a divorce, but to help you gain peace and understanding as you make decisions for the future.

I'm so sorry to hear this Justthe3ofus. Praying for you and your family!

I'm so sorry to hear of this.

Will you be writing Dr. Harley?

Mr. Eureka,
I'm not sure if you know my story, but MB restored my marriage after my wife and I divorced over her first affair. I was in Plan A for a long time and eventually it paid off.

I am going to e-mail Dr. Harley. I have not left my wife. This week we are visiting colleges. On Wednesday she and I spent the day alone together as we dropped our daughters off at Disneyland for the day and did not pick them up from the park until midnight when it closed. They are teenagers.

I don't want to throw away the marriage, but I don't trust my wife. She hasn't shared with me everything she did, and she kept changing her story as I came up with evidence that countered what she was saying.

She is not in withdrawal. We are intimate and loving. She is not having an affair with any one person. But the fact that she went back to chat rooms and was skyping with different guys getting her thrills and giving them thrills is still infidelity, and I feel its only a matter of time before she does something like this again and it leads to another affair. This has caused a huge withdrawal in my love bank.

I will update you after I hear from Dr. Harley.

Thank you, Axe, Brain, and DQ for your thoughts. They are much appreciated.

I am really a loss for words, I have a great respect for Marcos and everyone else here that take there time to help others.
I really consider your statement disrespectful.

You will never be able to trust her until you follow the MB plan and affair proof your marriage. You will never be able to trust her as long as you do not build an integrated marriage. These two things are essential to recovery, and you have neglected them. What she is doing is not surprising. It's not a new problem -- you have yet to take steps to recover from her previous affair.

This is more than just a situation where the wife is simply not getting her needs met. When a BH issues an ultimatum, then proceeds to change nothing and doesn't follow EPs himself, the marriage almost always fails.

Recovery is more than an ultimatum.

He has been dishonest with all of us these past few years. He passed himself off as having recovered his marriage, when he wasn't even following the program (following EPs is basic stuff -- doesn't take a lot of finesse). When the truth comes out, he brushes us off. I only hope that when he does contact Dr. Harley, he is honest with him.

We have returned from our vacation. On the last night of our trip, my wife and I spent a very fun night out together, and we were in a suite hotel so we had our own room apart for the kids. We are not huge fans of Vegas, but it was nice walking the strip, having a couple of drinks at Magaritaville, watching a live band, dancing, and returning to our suite. We had two solid days alone doing things together in a romantic environments on this trip. This weekend we celebrate our Wedding Anniversary and we will be going out to her favorite restaurant.

So I have not thrown in the towel, and we are going to work through this. Still, I am deeply hurt by my wife's choice, extremely distrustful of her, and once again shattered that she has so little regard for me in making the choice that she did.

I want to be clear about something. After my wife and I divorced, our marriage did fully recover. We followed the plan and it worked. We have been happy in our marriage. The last 6 months our UA time has dipped and that was a mistake on both of our parts, mine especially. But we were still spending time together alone. We are back on track now.

Melody Lane gave sound advice to Raplhy 3 on page one of his thread that applies to my situation, and I will be following it.

I emailed Dr. Harley yesterday.

As far as my ultimatum goes, I believe in boundaries. Some here may not, but I am not afraid to set them, and even though I'm making an exception this time, I will not make one again.

j3, I'm glad to hear things are looking up. I hope you'll seen be enjoying a good marriage that is better than ever for both of you.

As far as boundaries I'm pretty sure most of us here believe in them.

You spent nights apart. You made exceptions to EPs, made ultimatums, and neglected UA to the point that your wife was bored with her life. You are not in an integrated marriage. This is not a recovered marriage. If you want to fully recover, you will need to follow EPs to the letter and not cherry-pick them. Otherwise, this will just happen again.

Dr. Harley does not advocate ultimatums. He says they do not work and that issuing ultimatums is dangerous to a marriage. You are, once again, cherry-picking and not following the program.

Thank you, Marcos. There are miles to go before we sleep but the rudder has moved in a better direction now that my feelings are not so raw.

We don't spend a lot of nights apart, and we are almost never away from each other. The days I was away this month I was with one of my daughters.

As far as the recovery goes, I believe the marriage was recovered. However, I am going to ask my wife for her opinion. She may disagree, and if she does, I will act on that information. I'll talk to her this week.

To the last point, Dr. Harley has always stated that infidelity is grounds for divorce. But he errs on the side of saving the marriage. I agree that's its important to fight for the marriage, and that is why I am giving this another chance. But the barriers must be in place, and out of fairness to my wife I am making them clear to her.

Let us know what Dr. Harley says.

What EPs will be implemented? How are you going to affair proof your marriage?

Will do, Brain. Still working on how to affair proof things. I did mention to her that from on for me to feel safe I will have to keep a close tabs on all that she does. She got rid of her apps on her phone. I asked for the old password on those apps but she would not give them to me. I told her no secrets in a marriage and she is hiding something. She refuses, and this is a big sticking point for me. Could be a deal breaker as far as EP's go.

I think I'd get into that phone come hell or high water.

I agree with markos, get into that phone. Do you have spyware on the phone?

Update:
Today I wrote my wife a letter that included a suggested pathway towards marital recovery. In that letter I included the list of Extraordinary Precautions that Dr. Harley suggests to spouses recovering a marriage in which infidelity took place. The one that gets frequently posted on this "Surviving an Affair" thread. At the end of the letter I wrote: "I asked you in a recent text message if your heart is in the marriage and if you are in need something more than what I can offer. You did not answer. Please let me know if you�re willing to work with me in taking the necessary steps to recover our marriage. I believe our marriage is worth saving."

After giving her the letter I left the home to give her time to read it and think it over. When I returned, she was in her room, and she was crying. She shared with me that she has changed and that she doesn't think she can stop looking for thrills from other men. She said she feels very bad for me, that I'm a good man, and that I don't deserve to be hurt. She called herself a monster. But she made it clear that I am unable to satisfy all of her sexual desires, especially as they relate to BDSM and sex of the mind. She still loves me and doesn't want to break up our family, but she doesn't think she will be able to curb her desires and avoid future infidelities. She doesn't feel the EP's I've put in place as a condition for recovering the marriage will work as she will feel boxed in and will try and find ways around them. However, I know that if she can't meet these EP's then our marriage is doomed.

I feel so bad for my wife. She is the love of my life, and I wish I could help lead her away from this destructive path. This is a tragic development, and I fear for her. I want to help her, but I don't where to turn. My first thoughts are that she should enroll in seven step program for sex addicts.

Just-
I am reposting part of my previous post to you as it applies here.



Even though it seems like a lost cause, you may be closer to recovery than you think. This was your wife being open and honest with you. Please thank her for sharing her feelings with you and take great care to be respectful. I would not suggest addiction groups. I would suggest you write this to Dr. Harley right away to get his advice. I hope you are on ADs because hearing this stings!!

DQ,
Yes, you read the situation correctly early on. Thank you for your suggestions. I was very respectful and tender with her today when she told me. I was very appreciative of her honesty. Even though it hurts a lot, I did not direct any anger or resentment her way. I didn't feel those emotions today. Just sadness and helplessness. Neither of us know what to do.

Justthe3ofus, did you reach out to Dr Harley?

Where is she being exposed to BDSM? Can they be eliminated - computer, Kindle, Tablet?

Just, here is how I see your situation. Your wife is no different from men who become jaundiced and warped in their sexual preferences by watching porn online. In your case, your wife actually has online affairs in addition to watching porn. If she stopped doing that and made your marriage sexually exclusive, she would learn to enjoy sex within her marriage. But she has to stop getting her sexual needs met outside of marriage. It is much like getting high on heroin; the contrast to real life is always suffering because she is high on a sick fantasy.

Your marriage can heal if she gives up her secret sex life and you all start working the program. That means creating a passionate, romantic marriage using these concepts.

p.s. if she won't agree to do this, then you don't have a marriage.

Did this list include absolutely no more nights apart? (It doesn't matter if your daughter is with you when you are apart. Apart is apart.)

j3, Dr. Harley deals with this sort of thing frequently. Why don't you mention that to her, tell her Dr. Harley used to run a chain of mental health clinics that dealt with all sorts of situations, and see if she will talk to him? I'd see what he recommends rather than playing Russian roulette with treatment.

And I'd do this as an expression of care and concern for her. If she feels like a monster, this is something that can help.

I agree with Mel that this is very much like a man addicted to porn. Her desires CAN be changed, if she is restricted to the marriage and can't go finding her thrills elsewhere.

These things must happen if you are to recover:
1. There can be absolutely no more nights apart.
2. You cannot let UA slide. Ever.
3. There must be absolute transparency on all electronic devices. Smart phones should go. She should not be on a computer without you around. You will need to watch this the rest of your lives. There can never be another instance where she has access to a device and you don't know what's going on immediately. If this interferes with her job, she will need to find a new job.

X3

Your marriage should become thrilling. She needs admiration. She needs to be the center of your attention.

Your wife should have been on the trip with you and your daughter. Scratch the way I said that. You and your wife are joined at the hip and should have gone with your daughter.

After eliminating any contast, focus on finding consistent, mutually enjoyable SF.

Your wife tends not to fess up when her needs are unmet. If you follow the program, you will be so integrated and she should be in love with you, not looking for an outside thrill.

If she won't agree to eliminate contrast for the rest of her life then the marriage won't work.

Marcos,
Does Dr. Harley speak with clients still, or would that be through the radio program?

That sounds about right, Melody. Now that she has opened Pandora's Box she is hooked. For a long time she has had alternative fantasies, and they are way out there. She has managed to find men who can ably help her realize them, and she says it's not in me to act them out with her. It would be inauthentic and therefore unfulfilling for her. She also says she respects me and can't do the things to me that she does to these men. We have an active sex life, and she has a very strong libido, but she's bored with "conventional" sex. It wasn't always this way.

The two times that I have discussed EP's with her she responded very foggily. Anything that upsets the fantasy of her other life makes her dig her heels in. She doesn't want to give it up.

I will talk to her about revitalizing our marriage again and suggest that doing so will help to ween her from these desires. I will also e-mail Dr. Harley. I already e-mailed him, but it was before the last update.

Online. Computer for movies--though I've never seen her watching anything pornographic. All of her encounters on skype and chat take place through her phone.

Yes, Prisca. And all of these items were listed in the EP's I made a condition for recovery.

Yes, DQ. This makes sense.

Start by emailing the radio address. Depending on the situation Dr. Harley does sometimes talk to people privately but start by emailing the radio address.

Was the recent email you sent regarding her most recent affairs? If so, what did Dr. Harley say?

I did not receive a reply. I just sent him an update.

After I gave my wife the letter with the EP's she indicated she can't do them, and so in my mind that was it. Separation. However, I have rethought that after reading the responses here on this thread. To all of you, thank you for the helpful feedback.

I was in Plan D by design, unwilling to go through another Plan A. One was enough for me. However, I have decided to Plan A again for a month or so. I am going to put on a full court press. This morning I asked my wife if she would like to date, and she said yes. I will make it a point to schedule plenty of time for both of us and renew the promises of a full MB recovery and lifestyle.

I hope these actions will encourage her to accept the EPs and find ways resist the temptations she's given in to. Ultimately, if she won't accept the EP's then our marriage will end. But I recognize that right now I need to give her 1000 reasons why staying married is the very best option for her, and that starts and finishes with my actions, giving her quality, regularly scheduled UA time. Hopefully, I will get some advice from Dr. Harley on the matter as well, particularly in regard to my Wife's alternative needs (BDSM) for sexual fulfillment from other men.

On a final note, your 2x4's have found my conscience. My apologies to Marcos and Prisca. Thank you for turning the cheek.

j3 I hope it goes well for you and that you are able to win your wife to a marriage that will make both of you fantastically happy. Be sure to communicate with Dr. Harley about your wife's refusal to take extraordinary precautions and the sexual issues - if you don't hear back from him, keep trying, because apparently sometimes he or Joyce get busy or miss an email or something goes into spam, but I think you absolutely need to get his advice on these two things.

Try emailing again and if you still don't get a response notify the MODS so they can let Dr. Harley know.

My wife and I talked again last night. She mentioned to me that she told her sisters about our separation and that she had done something bad. Her sisters said that sometimes people just grow apart, to which I responded, when that happens they can grow back together.

My wife agreed with them that we have grown apart, and she's right. She has changed in a lot of her views, her religion, and her outlook on certain social issues. We have different world views. The problem is, as she explained to me, I have been disrespectful in dealing with the differences. She gave me specific examples that quite frankly made me feel ashamed. Some disrespectful judgments and selfish demands were made on my part that hurt her. Really, there is no excuse. After reading the program I should have known and done better.

Though I expressed a willingness to improve, she feels that this is the second time around and things may improve for a short time and then go back to being bad. My reply was that though things have slid these past few months, things over all were better, and she agreed.

Still, she thinks we're are different people now and she doesn't believe this is a good marriage. The EP's that are a condition for recovery are a sticking point for her. She says she doesn't want to feel like a prisoner. She won't abide by them.

Is she saying, or has she said, that she is not willing to be faithful to you? Is that what she really means about the EPs and the BDSM?

Then this is a non-starter.

Yes, it is a non-starter, and she understands that I am firm with the EP's. I will try and show her through actions that our marriage is worth it, but I will also be filing for a legal separation at the same time.

She has said that she can't guarantee she won't go back to what she was doing.

j3, maybe you can sell her on the idea that Dr. Harley's program would keep you accountable and keep you from being disrespectful. That might interest her enough to consider trying abiding by the constraints of the program that would apply to her.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

No, I have not heard back from him.

Did you email him again and notify the MODS if you don't hear back?

Here is a conversation with my WW today by text.

J3: You were asleep, so I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying this morning. I'm very sorry for those things that I've done.

[An hour later I sent this:] And though I am very sorry for the things that I have done that were disrespectful and insensitive, those should not be deal breakers. When people make mistakes, they can atone for their mistakes. Without forgiveness reconciliation and atonement every relationship is doomed. I'm not excusing what I did, but had we had this conversation earlier those things would have stopped earlier. Instead you kept it all in, and you let your resentment simmer, and then reached a Breaking Point. Why did you do that?. Don't you have a peace chair in your classroom where students who have wronged each other talk out their feelings and work it out? You allow that process for your students but you don't allow that process for your marriage.

WW: I know this is all my mistake. Im sorry.

J3: When we renewed our vows I had hoped that we would stick to them this time. Marriage is hard work, and every couple has their differences. I feel those differences in the same way that you do. But when we married, two became one. We don't let our differences shatter our Union. We keep the love alive. And we can do that if we so choose. I want both of us to be happy and ecstatic in the love that we share. I don't want to just cruise through a marriage clinging to lifeless vows. But we did exchange vows, and those vows define us.

WW: I want that too. But at this moment I�m in a different place.

J3: What place does God want you to be in?

WW: God, I think, would want me to stay with my family.

J3: The reason you are in a different place is because you have allowed other men to meet your intimate needs. That has put your heart in a different place. All this other stuff we could work through with time and care.

WW: I know we can. But what about those needs?

J3: Suppress them. We all have temptations. I do too. But I forsake all others for you.

WW: I will try.

J3: Does that mean you are willing to put in place the extraordinary precautions?

WW: I said I will try.

J3: Thank you, but is that a yes or a no?

She did not answer that question. But later in the afternoon she sent me a picture of her classroom which she is getting ready for the school year. � Look at the back area. All nice and organized.�

I replied: It is looking beautiful, Mrs. J3! Your kids are going to be so happy this year in your classroom. They always are.�

My wife is a GREAT teacher. Anyway, she is at this point unwilling to do the EP�s, which indicates she is either reluctant to have to lose face to the people she's been chatting with, or she doesn't want to give it up, or she is entrenched in an affair. In the final analysis, not giving up the EPs is a deal breaker for me.

Here the EP's that were laid out to ww:

Our marriage has been ravaged by infidelity three times now, but we can recover from it if we are willing to take extraordinary precautions and stick with them. I am willing to give our marriage one more chance if you are, but there are precautions that must be put in place. Here are the steps we would need to take:

�You should reveal all information about your infidelity to me. There can be no secrets, passwords, etc.

�You should make a commitment to never see or talk to any of the men you Skyped with and were on (name of chatroom) with again.

�You should go on SKYPE in my presence and end the relationship with all the men you have skyped with.

�You should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the men you have contacted by Skype and in (name of chatroom). This includes going on (name of chatroom)in my presence and letting them know you will not be returning and that your presence in the room was wrong and hurtful to your husband and your family.

�You should block potential communication with the men you have been in contact with (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers if they have them, and close all social networking accounts; all forms of communication are to be available to me for checking & monitoring).

�Account for time (We both give each other a 24 hour daily schedule w/ locations and telephone #s).

�Account for money (We give each other a complete account of all money spent. Receipts are saved for cash transactions).

�We spend leisure time together.

�Avoid overnight separation.

�Allow technical accountability.

Sexual fidelity is surely the key component of marriage. Many people fail at that, but if they openly state that they are not even willing to put all their effort into achieving fidelity, they are not fit to be married.

Your wife seems to be saying that she will not prioritise fidelity. She seems to be saying that she will stay in the marriage if you will let her, and if you'll be nice to her, but she won't make any effort to be faithful.

Do I understand that correctly?

Yes, that is the message I am getting from her. I would like to know more about the encounters she has had and if she is still in contact with these men.

I have to agree.

I just sent something to the moderators, Brain.

Since my wife won't accept the EP's, I have asked her to move out,and she has agreed. Without EP's in place, this isn't a safe marriage. I can't sleep at night knowing that she might be doing this, and I can't afford for this to affect my job performance.

I am surprised that she is taking this stand. She has said that she loves me and has also indicated that she is making the biggest mistake of her life. But she won't let go. I asked Dr. Harley in my e-mail if he has any suggestions that might help her. She is headed down a destructive path and I worry for her health, safety, and well being. I have asked her to call our health care provider's family therapy department to get help. I don't think she will do it. She doesn't want to have to share this with anyone. Prayers would be appreciated.

It will be interesting to hear what Dr. H has to say. It's possible that your wife feels powerless over her cravings and impulses, thus cannot truthfully promise not to engage. Or she just doesn't care enough.

I would ask Dr. H about exposure here. Having your blessing to keep quiet about the cause of this breakdown is not good for you.

Praying for you, j3.

Thank you for your prayers, Marcos. Please include my wife in them.

Dr. Harley is addressing you on the radio show today. Are you listening?

He doesn't seem to have high hopes for your situation -- you should separate, and even divorce. He says he believes this is "willful" on her part, and "being married to someone like that is a disaster."

I certainly am!

I missed it. I will look for it and listen to on loop.

Thank you for letting me know.

Thank you for the heads-up, Prisca. I did not know that my letter to the Harley's was going to be addressed. I was able to listen to the show just now, and Dr. Harley, as always, added very helpful insight and clarity to my situation. I am grateful to him and Joyce.

I thank all of you who have chimed in and given advice.

Just, I listened to the show and Dr Harley thinks its a good idea she leaves and that you get divorced.

Yes, Melody. I listened to show yesterday as well. The night before the show I had asked WW to move out since she wasn't willing to do the EP's, and Dr. Harley verified for me on the radio program that this was the right thing to do, which was a big relief. His insight on the situation was very helpful and affirming.

My next steps are to file for a legal separation and begin the annulment process with my Church. The latter is no guarantee by any stretch, but I am going to pursue it.

Is there a reason you are filing for separation and not divorce?

I'm Catholic. Down the road I think this will end in divorce.

As a Catholic, you can file for divorce and not just legal separation. It will not affect your annulment.

The Church will not begin the process for a declaration of nullity until the civil divorce is final.

Praying for you, j3, and we won't stop.

Has your wife commented since you asked her to move out?

Thanks everyone for the information about divorce as it pertains to annulment. I will be filing for a divorce, not a legal separation.

Marcos, thank you, again, for the prayers. I have not been talking to my wife since she agreed to move out. I explained to her that I'd be going dark and let her know that it wasn't out of spite or anger (though honestly I do feel a lot of hurt and resentment). I also explained this to my two daughters so they don't feel that they are constantly in the cross hairs of a cold war in the house. They fully understand and are dealing with it well. Still, I think her moving out will remove a lot of tension and stress. I will file for divorce as soon as I get time to do so. I am a school principal, and my plate has been full at work as we are preparing for the opening of school. I was leading an in-service for 150 teachers the day after this blew up. The in-service went well, but I only got 2 hours sleep because of this situation, and I found myself feeling brokenhearted for a moment in the middle of my presentation. That's how it is going to be. This is my second trip to Brokenheartsville, but I am much stronger this time around.

Anyway, though I'm very busy next week with the opening of school, I will hopefully find some time to file. I don't want to delay.

I am so sorry it has come to this. I will pray for your family.

How did you manage the divorce and remarriage last time? Did you get an annulment? Did you remarry in the Church?

Thank you, SC. The last time we divorced, I did not pursue an annulment. My wife and I got remarried 9 months after the divorce had finalized. That was a civil marriage. We also renewed our vows in the Church. The Church didn't recognize the divorce so we simply renewed our vows in church. We had been apart for 2 years.

Though it is a tough having to go through this a second time, I am still very glad that my wife and I tried to recover our marriage. The last 3 years have been happy, and my children were so much happier when we got back together.

On a different note, last night my daughter told me she can also see Mom's side to this. WW told DD that we had grown apart and she has changed. Yes, she has changed. But the reason she is willing to leave the marriage imo is she has let other men meet her emotional needs and she is unwilling to stop letting that happen. She also is unwilling to work together again on the aspects of the marriage where she is unhappy. I am troubled that my wife is giving my daughter this message. I don't want DD thinking that the fact people change is a reason to exit a marriage. Marriage should be a lifelong commitment where couples transcend their differences by doing things to grow together and strengthen their bonds. That is what Dr. Harley's program is based on: filling and keeping the love bank strong, avoiding love busters, and finding ways to "win" together. My daughter is getting the wrong message about marriage from her mom, and that is extremely dangerous as lifelong attitudes about marriage are so often formed through the modeling of parents. I want my daughters to have successful lifelong marriages in the future. I don't want this divorce to be a legacy for my daughters.

I can't be the only person wondering how your wife reconciles her wilful unfaithfulness with her religion. Does she ever talk about that? Does she still consider herself obedient to that religion?

SC, The best way to describe it is this: She is a renter in marriage and in her religion. What she is doing is contrary to the teachings of Islam and she is fully aware of that.

Have you explained to your DD that her Mother's excuse that she has "changed" is not a valid reason to leave a marriage and educated your DD about her Mom allowing OMen to meet her ENs?

How old is your DD? Buyers, renter's and freeloaders is a good book to have children (as Long as they are old enough) to read.

Hi Brain,
Yes, I did talk to my daughter. She listened, understood, and didn't say much. She feels caught in the middle, but she got it.

Glad you were honest with her. She will know her Mom is wrong.

j3, one of the things Dr. Harley often emphasizes is that change is inevitable in life. Everybody will change, whether they intend to, or not. The question is, will you make those changes intentional and will you take charge of them, or just let them happen? And for married people the other question is: will you change together, or change individually and independently?

A married person can just bump along through life and get involved in what interests them and drop what no longer interests them and invest no effort in coordinating their interests with their spouse, and the result is incompatibility and an unhappy marriage. Or a married person can coordinate their interests with their spouse and they can grow and develop together. Along that line I've heard Dr. Harley suggest that couples not investigate their interests much individually but strive to investigate them as couples. For example, if one spouse is interested in a religion, or a nutritional system, or a game, or whatever subject it might be - select the things you invest your time in to be the things both of you are interested in investing time in.

These might be good thoughts for your daughter.

Here is the show with your email Radio Clip of Justthe3ofus's Email

I posted the wrong clips earlier. Here is your email.
Radio Clip of Justthe3ofus's Email
Segment 2

Hi, j3. Thinking of you today, and praying for you.

Thanks for your prayers and thoughtfulness, Marcos! I really appreciate it. I never replied to your post above regarding educating my daughter on the benefits of a fully integrated marriage where couples together pursue areas of common interest. That was a great insight. Thank you.

Update: It took awhile, but my WW has left the house, and I have filed for divorce. I last posted in August, and at that time I was going to ask her to leave. However, we postponed her departure because our youngest daughter is now attending a Catholic high school, and the tuition is very high. If WW moves out the funds used to pay tuition would be wiped out by the rent she will have to pay. So we agreed that she would stay at home until June. However, last Friday, I discovered through an e-mail she received from our cell phone carrier that she was back at it again, chatting with men from other countries. Last straw. That night I asked her to leave the house by the next night. She stayed with her sister for a couple of days and then found an apartment nearby. I filed for divorce a couple of days later.

It hurts, and I still can't comprehend the person she has become, even though this is the second time around. But I've also reached the acceptance stage of this grieving process. Unlike the first time we divorced over her infidelity, I am coping much better, living in the moment with friends, family, and coworkers, and looking ahead for a new life without her. My youngest daughter seems to be doing fine though she is, of course, very sad. My oldest is having a very hard time. She has depression and anxiety and this has definitely triggered that illness. Over the past 3 years she has matured and learned to cope with depression. She's made great strides, but this is a challenge for her. Fortunately, she has learned to seek the counsel of wise adults and mature friends, and that has helped her.

My girls are going to split time with WW and me. That is a fair arrangement, but I have a concern. Because my WW is into BDSM and some really perverse things that I won't go into here, the type of men that she chats with are probably not safe for her or for my daughters. My WW is fiercely protective of the girls, and she would not purposely endanger them. But once she finally does get around to hooking up with men, one of them could come around unexpectedly. I don't want any of these men seeing my daughters. Does anyone know if its possible to put "contingencies" in the custody agreement?

Depending on your jurisdiction, you may be able to have a clause in the custody agreement that specifies that no romantic partners are to be in either of your houses when your daughters are there. Trying to specify that further, ie., to people you would consider to be sexually deviant, will probably be unworkable so you will just have to cast the net broadly. Requiring that no such person can be "around" your daughters, i.e.., at a restaurant or something, will be much tougher. It may depend on their ages.

You will probably have to agree to it for yourself, too.

Do your girls want to even be around her?

I would not say it is 'fiercely protective' of your WW to give up her life to pursue her own selfish and deviant sexual appetite. I think it is great that you remain so positive about your wife despite her actions, but you also need to be realistic. A woman who is wayward and giving up her life for an immoral lifestyle is NOT looking out for the best interest of her young daughters, which means that is YOUR job to do. It is absolutely right for you to want to protect your daughters from the people WW is exposed to right now, it is a recipe for disaster. Do whatever you can to protect them from this.

Sometimes the least likely people turn out to have an interest in minors.

You have a heads up here that your children will be exposed to men interested in acting out unconventional sexual appetites. These men are among the most likely to have a sexual desire for your girls.

If only so many other parents could have been as fortunate to have such advanced notice.

Recap and Update:

For those new to my story, my wife left me for another man back in 2010. She met him online in a chat room. He lived in Malaysia, and she went to visit him for two weeks in July of that year. At the time I didn't know where she was or what was happening. She just said she wanted to get away and said she was visiting her best friend who lives out of state. When she returned from her trip, she shared with me that she had converted to Islam. I knew something was up, and after a month she admitted she was having an affair. I asked to her to end the affair or leave the house, and she chose to continue the affair. Her affair lasted over a year, and we divorced though I maintained Plan A keeping the door open to reconciliation. Shortly after the divorce finalized, her affair crumbled, and we reconciled in 2012. We remarried and had a wonderful recovery. All of us, including our two daughters, were so happy. But things went awry again this summer.

At the end of a trip doing college visits with my daughter, DD shared with me that she saw my wife online again skyping with a man. After she further investigated, it turns out she was trolling for sex online in chat rooms with men, and she had relationships with at least one man who was from Amsterdam. I confronted her and wrote her a letter asking her to put in place extraordinary precautions to safeguard our relationship. She refused so I asked her for a divorce again. Dr. Harley affirmed my decision to do so on his radio program. She continued to live in the home for a month and I held out some hope that she would come around, but I learned that she had developed a new relationship with a man in India. At that point I insisted she leave. She has her own place now, and our divorce should be finalized at the end of February if everything goes according to schedule. This Thanksgiving break (she's a teacher) she will be taking a 9 day trip to India to visit her affair partner. It is deja vu all over again. The patterns are exactly the same as the last time, except this time I am not in Plan A. I will not reconcile another time.

After she left the second time, I thought I would be fine. I told myself I wasn't going to fall apart the way I did the first time. I had been through the wringer alrady once, and I was toughened by the experience. And for awhile that was the case. But it turns out I merely deferred the pain. This upcoming trip to India has shattered me. I still love my wife very much,and even though I know we will never be together again, I still cannot come to terms with the end of our marriage and the breaking of a promise (for the second time). Logically, I know that time will heal the wounds (though there will be big scars), but I have a hard time believing that I'll get over the death of our marriage. When the divorce is finalized, I will pursue an annulment. A priest told me I have a very good chance of getting it annulled. I don't want to live the rest of my life without a partner, but at the same time, I have a hard time imagining living a life with anyone but her since she was the one I promised to live with for life. Acceptance of divorce will come very hard for me, and I don't want to live in despair forever.

I am not in Plan B, and I don't plan to take that option, but I do get triggered every time I see her or hear from her by text or phone. She is a different person now, and she has become much darker. I don't want to interact with her, but I also don't want to miss events where we both need to be because of our daughters. I will simply minimize contact with her. She will cooperate in that.

Since I am no longer trying to save the marriage, I will ask the moderators to move this the Divorced/Divorcing thread. I thank all of you who have provided help in the forum. I'm sorry my story wasn't a MB Success Story.

Why not go into Plan B to protect yourself from the pain?

Because I can deal with it. I want to be at every event involving our children. Also I don't want to deal with a middleman.

I got a D and I consider myself a MB success story. From what I understand Dr Harley didn't recommend staying M to someone like your WW, so you did the right thing.

Understand that you will probably have these feelings as long as you are in contact with your ex WW. I have seen many divorced posters who refuse to cut communication with their spouse and they seem to remain infatuated with their exes for YEARS after the D.

How much do you talk to your ex on a weekly basis? And how old are your kids?

I know that your kids are not little.

What is the nature of these events that you both want to attend?

I can see how others through constant contact would stay infatuated with their exes. I do not want to be in that category. I want to let my feelings fade with time, the faster the better. Of course, right now, those feeling are very strong. I still deeply love her, and also extremely angry with her. But I am going to let the slow work of time do its thing.

I do not talk to my WW unless it's important business. We mostly text, and we keep our communications limited to issues only having to do with the children or the divorce. So, in conclusion, we minimize communication and interactions. I ask the children to talk to her in another room when they call her on the phone.

My children are in high school, a senior and a freshman. activities we would both attend would include School plays, back-to-school night, etc. But we would not be in the same area of the room. We keep our distance.

If you really did not want to see her, you would not go to those things.

Not true. I am not going to miss my kids' functions just because she's there. And she has a right to go to them.

No! It with occasional phone/text contact or seeing their ex during drop off. And as you can see with your own situation, you are still "deeply in love" with her, despite this occasional contact.

Where are you getting these ideas from? I have NEVER heard Dr Harley say that it's somehow ideal to let the "feelings fade with time" or " let the slow work of time do its thing." I have never heard any divorced MB folks say this was the case for them. Conversely, those who have even occasional contact seem to ALWAYS talk about their exes here.

You know, don't you, that Dr Harley advocates Plan B and no contact for those who are married with any former lover because any contact has the potential to add to the love bank, right? There is no clause that so long as you allowed those feelings for the lover to slowly fade out over time, that you are now safe from the lovebank model.

I can tell you for myself that I have NO feelings of love for my ex WH. I don't even have feelings of anger towards him and I attribute that largely to Plan B. Currently, we do have to have some court ordered contact but it is only once in a while - I can tell you that it DOES trigger me - I notice after contact that I am remembering things from a long time ago or I am bringing up his name more often after contact. When there is NO contact, I don't think about him or things from the past. At all. [/quote]

I didn't question her rights.

The point I am making is that, although seeing her makes you feel bad, there is some reward in seeing her at all. It might be that you hold out hope that she will see you again and remember all that you had together - I don't know.

The point is that, if it were all bad, you wouldn't go. You don't have to go to "Back to School night", and plays are usually staged for more than one night; it is a rare school that doesn't want the play to be seen by as many parents as possible. If you don't go to "Back to School night", your daughters will still go back to school, and they will still be your daughters. Life will go on, and you will have a better chance to heal. Missing such an event is only a catastrophe if you want it to be.

What do your daughters think of everything? Have they told their Mom?

Agree.

I have found ways to work around seeing ex H at the school. If it means I miss a parent night at the school, it's not a big deal - you can set up an appointment for teachers conference on a different day. I think the only time I couldn't avoid it in 3 years was my kids' graduations (one from elementary school, one from HS, both on the same day) and I had people with me to buffer me and stayed FAR away.

I think you want to see her and talk to her. It's almost like an addiction. That's what I've noted with some divorced BSs here over the years.

No, I do NOT want to see her. Just yesterday, she had to drop off something to me. I told her by text that I was leaving for an hour and that would be the best time (so that I wouldn't have to see her car pull up to our house). I don't want to see her at all. Seeing her drives up a storm in me. I will be relieved that she is out of the country and out of contact for 9 straight days starting on Friday.

My daughters don't approve of what their mom is doing, but they have not expressed their disapproval to her. There is no talk about her affairs. My WW pretends its not happening around the girls, and they go along with it. Only once did one of my daughters express anger towards my WW over her affairs. I am not sure what transpires between my oldest and my WW when they are together. My oldest is very close to WW, and she seems to "understand" why my WW has left the marriage, even if she doesn't agree with it.

I communicate with them when needed about their mom's affair, and they understand that is wrong. I don't talk about it much as I don't want to put them in middle of it, but I am crystal clear about the issue, and I often check in just to see how they are doing. I also let them know how I am doing without going over the top emotionally.

I think you should write to Dr Harley on the radio show about your marital history with your WW (divorced twice and you don't plan to ever take her back), some of your post-D ideas about staying in contact, her actions such as going to India still "deeply hurting" you, still deeply being in love with her and wanting it to "fade slowy" over time vs using Plan B.

My wife and I met at the court house yesterday to finalize the divorce agreement. We talked afterward, just for closure.

We hashed out all that happened, and she is very sorry for what she has done. But the damage has been done. She says she still loves me, but knows we can't be together again as she may cheat again and that would only make me look the fool. She is in a relationship right now with a man from India. I know nothing about him.

We agreed to no contact other than e-mail, and we will not see each other at kid events. She asked if we could still be friends and I said no. Only in marriage can we be friends. We had a long cry together. I'm going dark.

I am at work right now but I have been shattered into a million pieces. The grief is very strong today. I don't know how I will make it through our faculty Christmas party tonight. I am the principal and I must attend, but I think I will be leaving early. Just can't put on a good face today.

I'm so sorry, Just. It's easy to feel sorry for addicts, and agree to things like email etc. I think that's a huge mistake.

I would Plan B for real with an intermediary. She is not getting her first choice which is cake eating, but she is getting brownies.

In the end, if you are callous or warm in your email communication, a message will be sent that she still is entitled, and a perception is created. When a partner fails to provide safety, they shouldn't have a partner. Email, from you is an act of communication and partnership, just a more limited partnership.

At least she gets something- easier methods of communication. At least she is enabled. Lol.

I'm so very sorry to hear this. I can't believe that your wife would rather purse this new lifestyle than be married to you.

Have you sorted out finances? Are you taking over the house and all the bills and payments? Is she required to support the child still at home? Has all her stuff been moved out?

Once you've dealt with all those details, would you consider doing a proper NC? No email; what is the need? I gather there is some kind of online calendar invented for separated parents, where you book the events that you will be going to, so that the other will stay away.

You really need to not communicate with her. The talk you had today made it clear that there is no going back for her - but you knew that anyway, with the divorce. All it really did was break your heart even more.

I'm so sorry.

So sorry.

I also agree with SC and DQ about not having email contact at all. Every time there will be an email you will suffer again and again. Please reconsider having no contact at all.

Just, I had to submit my post fast due to call coming in...but I didn't get a chance to address the following point.

Your sympathy and caring love for her keeps you engaged and doing her favors. I tend to be the same way. However, at this point, I'm not sure that charity, or even preventing the "bitter" image is necessary.
You have paid the uttermost farthing to save yoir family and your marriage. She, for many assorted reasons, has not reciprocated. Even at this point in the game, you gave her the benefit of a NEGOTIATED AGREEMENT to email in the future. Interdependence is for marriage.

The healthy protection of true no contact is a good idea. I am so sorry for your failed investment. You are a good man.

I agree with complete NC.

Keep in mind that she is leading a very dangerous lifestyle. Anyone she is in contact with is subject to the same unsavory characters that she associates with (creeps and pervs she meets online). This includes your children and yourself.

Someday you will be ready to move on from this. Maybe date or even marry again. You seem to be a good man and you deserve that. I would not be interested in dating a man who maintained contact with a woman who led this lifestyle, for my own safety and because frankly, I would question just WHY he needed to maintain contact. Now is time to protect yourself and anyone else YOU associate with from this craziness, and open up your life for better things.

I know you love her and do not think of her as a bad person. I am not saying she is. But that does not mean you need to keep hanging around in some form of fashion, being a witness to it. That will only hurt you and everyone else around you.

I can't remember what you've told your girls about your ex's lifestyle choice. I remember that one of the girls actually told you about the online trolling, but do they both know that their mother is choosing this lifestyle over marriage? Do they know that she is already with a new man?

And do they know how to protect themselves from all contact with these pervs? Will they be staying at her house ever?

Having email contact does not mean you are going dark. This won't work.

Are you going to email Dr Harley and ask his opinion since you won't listen to us?

I can't tell from what you wrote in August whether your daughters are fully aware of their mother's new lifestyle.

We were trying to pursue this with you in the summer, but you let this drop, and came back with an update that did not address this point.

Do your daughter want to split their time 50/50 with you and their mother, fully knowing about her lifestyle? They are old enough to decide that they do not want to visit her house at all. If they say that, then you wouldn't have to worry about putting stipulation in the divorce decree. However, they can't decide if they don't know about this.

And if a judge has already ruled on the 50/50: was he or she given the full facts about your wife's choices to hook up with men that she meets online?

Your daughter MUST be protected. You can't trust your ex's goodwill and the fact that she cries and says that she still loves you, and was once "fiercely protective" of your kids. She's not protective enough to have spared them from this horror. You need to arm them against these pervert men.

Thank you all for your replies and feedback. I have taken it into serious consideration, and here is where I am at:

1)I will send the following e-mail to my wife today:

WW,

I am still heartbroken over the demise of our marriage, and I will never be able to reconcile how the promises we made to love and protect each other in an exclusive lifelong relationship were twice violated and what was a beautiful 24 year old marriage now lies on the rubbish heap because of it. Seeing you on Thursday was a setback for me, and I had a hard time making it through the day on Friday. I learned from our encounter that any contact I have with you is going to generate an emotional tempest inside me. So in order for me to move forward and heal, I am ending all contact with you. Do not text, call, or e-mail me. If you need to convey a message you can do it through my mom who has agreed to be our go-between if something important needs to be relayed.

Over the Christmas break, I will be setting up two Google docs, the first a calendar with a child visitation schedule and their events and the second a spreadsheet that enables both of us to list expenses.

Justthethreeofus


2) As far as the safety of my two high school daughters goes, I have put the following in the Marriage Settlement Agreement which was signed and submitted on Thursday at the courthouse:

"The parties shall have joint physical custody of the minor children so long as Wife�s primary residence in the United States. So long as the mother�s primary residence is in the United States, and no man is living in Mother�s home, Mother shall have the children on altering weeks, Monday through the following Sunday. If wife moves her primary residence from the United States, visitation shall be by mutual agreement."

I talked to the girls this afternoon, and I reminded them that their mom was keeping company online with sexually shady people, and that those people are not safe for them to be around. I mentioned that they are to immediately let me know if a man is ever in the house. I also let them know that I will not allow them to travel overseas with their mom, and they understood and had no problem with this. I told my wife that if anything happens to the girls because of the men she sees (she is only seeing one at the present time, and he lives in India) that she will be held fully responsible.

3) I was able to get the other man's phone number from Sprint. He lives in India, and I texted him the following message today:

"My wife has chosen to break up our family for a second time due to an affair. This time with you. I blame her mostly for this, but you shoulder the blame as well. Do not come anywhere near my daughters, and if you ever come to the United States stay away from me as well. An encounter with me or my daughters would not be good for you."

That's it for now.

Could you try and answer the questions that I asked? You don't really address them all by posting that update.

If you have not already sent that email to your wife, there is a specific Plan B letter devised by Dr Harley that we always recommend using.

Sugar Cane. Your questions are in green. My answers are in blue.

I remember that one of the girls actually told you about the online trolling, but do they both know that their mother is choosing this lifestyle over marriage?

YES

Do they know that she is already with a new man?

YES

And do they know how to protect themselves from all contact with these pervs?

YES

Will they be staying at her house ever?

YES. Half of the time. She has not had a man at her house, and the only man she is currently spending time with as far as I know lives in India. She was there for 10 days in November, and I told the girls that she was going there to be with a man. My WW did not tell them this. She told them she was going to visit her sister in Chicago. I set them straight.


Have you sorted out finances? Are you taking over the house and all the bills and payments? Is she required to support the child still at home? Has all her stuff been moved out?


She moved out of the house in September after I discovered her relationship with the man in India. We have divided the assets equally. I just refinanced the home and will be giving her half of the equity. All the finances have been sorted out, property divided, and custody established. Joint physical and legal custody.

Once you've dealt with all those details, would you consider doing a proper NC? No email; what is the need? I gather there is some kind of online calendar invented for separated parents, where you book the events that you will be going to, so that the other will stay away.

I have done that as of today. No contact, just as you suggested. I will not be using Dr. Harley's letter format, because I am closing the door to reconciliation. However, I did go back and read the letter that John wrote to Sue in SAA, and decided to change my letter to WW. Thank you for the suggestion. Here is what I will send her:

My dearest WW,

I am heartbroken over the demise of our marriage and the breakup of our family. You have been the love of my life, and I dreamed that it would always be so. I still can't reconcile that our marriage is coming to an end. Alas, you have chosen this path, and so in order for me to heal and move forward, I can no longer see you or have contact with you. Seeing you on Thursday brought about tremendous grief and sadness, and I had a hard time making it through the day on Friday. I learned from our meeting that any contact I have with you is going to generate an emotional tempest inside me. So I am asking you to respect my decision to end all contact. I ask that you please do not text, call, or e-mail. If you need to convey a message please do it through my mother who has agreed to be our go-between if something important needs to be relayed regarding the children.

Over the Christmas break, I will be setting up two Google docs, the first a calendar with a child visitation schedule and our daughters' events and the second a spreadsheet that enables both of us to list expenses.

You will always be my love and 32 years together has deepened our roots and intertwined our souls, but since you have again chosen to leave me for someone else, I can no longer see you or communicate with you.

With love,
Justthe3ofus


Do your daughter want to split their time 50/50 with you and their mother, fully knowing about her lifestyle? They are old enough to decide that they do not want to visit her house at all. If they say that, then you wouldn't have to worry about putting stipulation in the divorce decree. However, they can't decide if they don't know about this.

Yes, my daughters both know of WW's trolling for sex online and her aberrant sexual tendencies (though I have not gone into detail about them). But now that she is in a relationship she is no longer trolling for sex with other men. She's settled down with one guy. And all of her Skyping is done in the privacy of her room when the girls are with her. She has yet to bring anyone to her home as far as they or I know.

And if a judge has already ruled on the 50/50: was he or she given the full facts about your wife's choices to hook up with men that she meets online?

No. We did not meet with a judge. I drafted a marriage settlement agreement that she agreed to, and it stipulated that the girls would not be allowed to be in the home if another man was there.

Will you be blocking her from all of the ways she communicates with you? Phone? Email? Text?

Yes

I'm so sorry, my Friend. But I definitely know you will heal.

Thanks for your encouragement, Brain.

Good for you!

This really will be the best not only for you, but for your kids.

Really proud of you, Just. Hang in there. How was the Christmas party? You obviously lived to tell...

Thank you, DQ. Friday at work was hard. Had to close my office door and be by myself a few times. But the evening party was delightful as the good cheer and warmth of co-workers turned out to be a blessing.

SugarCane,

I see that you are very polite in your word choice. You are doing great this way! Keep up the good work.

Well..talk about damning with faint praise. I'm "doing great this way"...as opposed to what other way that I post?

You've singled out my post, out of all the posts made on this forum that day, to comment on my politeness. My post is no more polite and "good work" than most of the others made by our regular, hard-working posters. Why single me out?

There's a hidden agenda behind your message. I'd be careful not to alienate people, if I were you.

SugarCane produces very healthy sugar, so just keep up your good work and don't be suspicious of other's compliments. It is very important to treat all people on this forum who are asking for help on the equal footing with respect and friendliness as you have done here. I singled you out just because I happened to read this thread and liked your politeness very much, among other good and helpful qualities you have. Do you have any objection of me praising you, SugarCane? Did I came across as condescending? If yes, how so?

I am sure the original thread owner would like us to all be supportive to each other especially on his thread. Sorry for any sidetrack as it was not my intension at all.

You come across as condescending because, either you are implying that I have not always treated "all people on this forum who are asking for help on the equal footing with respect and friendliness", or you are implying that other people don't do this, and that mine is the post that stands out. Either way, I don't care for the implication, and I don't consider it a compliment.

Who made you the judge of what is a polite post, and what isn't? I don't think you are in any position to criticise the posts of others - and criticising them is what you are doing, not complementing them. I am well aware of that.

It simply is not done for a poster to join another person's thread in order to comment on a third person's posting style, especially since it is clearly your intention to criticise the general posts made on this forum. That is an agenda, and it does not belong on this thread.

I have notified the moderators that I find your posts to me on this thread objectionable. You should now let this matter drop. I don't need a reply from you.

Yes, AlwaysSmile, you do come across as condescending. You jumped on her when she tried to help you, and now you're praising her. Maybe that's not considered rude and suspicious in your culture, but it is in ours.

AlwaysSmile: The purpose of this forum is to help others find solutions using Marriage Builders concepts. We ask that you keep this in mind when posting to others.

Please do not jump onto threads with the sole purpose of critiquing/discussing people's posting styles. Any questions, send me an email.

Thank you.

Sugar Cane,
Not sure if you saw my post in response to your questions and comments a few days. Anyway, I changed my no contact letter to reflect more of what the Plan B letter looks like. I referred to the letter drafted by John to Sue in SAA. Mine is completely different in content, but the same in tone.

Sorry, Just: yes I did see your response. Thank you for getting back to me. I was a bit bothered by what you wrote, but I did not want to criticise anything when you are clearly already at a very low ebb. None of this is your fault, and I certainly would not have been able to cope with what you've been through.

However, since you asked, here is what bothered me:

I felt that you didn't answer my question about whether your girls actually want to split their time this way, and whether they want to stay at their mother's house, ever. You did tell me that they know about the trolling, but not whether they had been given the choice about not being in this environment, or even better, whether you had simply said that your wife could see the kids, but not have them to stay.

I also was very bothered about your pointing out that she Skypes in her bedroom, where they can't hear. I'm sorry, but her locking the door is not protecting them. She's having online sex with men - well, okay, one particular man today - and it is not alright for her kids to be in the house while she does this. You should not sanction this behaviour.

I was also a bit bothered about this. Why did you volunteer to let her have the girls half the time, given how she intends to lead her life? Why didn't you offer for her to see them, but no joint physical or legal custody?

If this had had to go before a judge, and you had told him or her what your wife had admitted to wanting to do with other men, don't you think you'd have had a good chance of sole custody? Why, then, didn't you fight for that?

It really worries me that you have given both the girls and your wife the impression that, while you abhor her behaviour, the most civilised course of action is for you to separate that from what you think of her as a parent.

She's lost nothing from her choices. She has the same relationship to her children as you do; you signed this into rights. I don't think that should be so. If you pitched for full custody you might lose, but you would have at least made the moral position clear.

**EDIT**

Moderator's Note: Stop!

AlwaysSmile: Do NOT post on this thread again or any other thread for the purposes of starting a fight with another poster. This will not be tolerated.

Sugar cane,
The girls want to be with their Mom also. They know what she is doing is wrong, but they want to be with her half the time.

I am ten days into a real Plan B, and I am doing much better because of it. Thanks everyone. Wishing you all a Merry Christmas.

Very glad to hear it, Justthe3ofus. Have a good Holiday with your daughters.

Yes!!!

That is wonderful news. I'm so glad you took this step and reap the benefits. Merry Christmas!!

Plan B is going well. I've had no contact. However, my wife took my daughters to the City for a couple of days over their break. My daughter texted me a picture of a landmark they passed on their way home from the trip. This landmark is not located in a place that they would drive past on the way home, so I asked her how was it they passed it. She mentioned that my WW took a two hour excursion to visit the apartment she and I lived in when we first married 25 years ago. Our newlywed years were great, and the apartment elicits many fond memories as it was fun and exciting place to live. Our friends and family always enjoyed visiting us there. Anyway, my WW and DD's got out and walked around the complex, and my wife shared stories with them.

I figure that my wife missed me while she was on this vacation with the girls. While they were gone, I missed her too as knowing they were together in the City reminded me of the fun times we spent together as a family all those years. This particular trip they took is one that we would always take together as a family between Christmas and New Years.

Just to be clear, I don't fish for information about what WW is doing when I talk to the girls. In fact, when they bring her up, I ask them not to unless it pertains to them and is something I need to know.

I have no idea what is really going on with my wife these days, and I make it my business not to know. But I definitely felt sad when my daughter shared with me they had visited that apartment.

On another note, I am pulling away from my in-laws. I have always loved them like my own family, and they have been kind and supportive through all this. But they are also supportive of WW, and I cannot be around those who support what has happened, so I am cutting ties. I will be cordial with them, and I still love them, but I am moving on.

I'm Glad to hear you're starting to heal. Your indirect contact is a valuable lesson for others to know how contact of any kind will start to hurt those that are in Plan B. This is the very reason we recommend a dark Plan B to everyone.

It's been 7 months since D-Day #2 and I'm nearly two full months into an impregnable Plan B. Overall, I'm doing better, but I am still singing the blues. There's a hole in my heart and wounded pride that may never heal.

I'm glad to hear you are feeling better. I'm sure it will get better still, with more time.

I've never had to go through this, so I may not know what I'm talking about, but I imagine that the more you change your lifestyle from the one you had with your wife, the more distant all this will become. For example, living in the same house that you lived in when she was with you can't be easy.

How are the girls adjusting? Are they coping well?

I'm not sure about selling the house though you may be right. I really like the home, and I have gotten rid of all signs of my FWW. I also bought a new bedroom set. At the same time, I have had moments where I feel that once my youngest is in college (3.5 five years from now) I would like to find a job far away and relocate just to get a fresh start.

My youngest daughter is doing well, but my oldest is struggling. Not just because of the divorce but because of relationship issues with her peers. She had a close friend who was being physically and verbally abused at home, and my daughter confided in me about it. Over the course of a few weeks the stories got worse so I called CPS and they paid a visit to the family, which caused a serious rupture in her friendship. Now she is not only out that friend, but the other friends in that group who feel she betrayed her friend's trust. I keep telling her that doing the right thing sometimes is costly, but ultimately it pays off. Still, she is now dealing with the breakup of her parents and the loss of her peer group in her senior year of high school. She has battled depression and anxiety since Junior High, and I've been very proud of her for how she has managed it with resileance and wisdom. But she is really struggling right now. My youngest daughter and I do all that we can to support her. She has a boyfriend who she also leans on for support and he is a good kid.

Finally, the divorce judgment came in this week. All that is left is to wait til early March and the divorce will be official. This has made for a very hard week. I am feeling a [censored] of resentment and anger towards my WW. I want to let go of the baggage but can't.

Food for thought: Maybe a move to a new home, along with a new school and a new peer group that your oldest daughter can join would be good for her. She might could use a fresh start, too.

What is your lifestyle like? What do you do in your free time?

Prisca,
My daughter likes the school where she is at, and she only has one semester left before graduation, so she would not welcome a move at this time. The good news is, with college coming up, she will have a fresh start in the near future. She is excited about college and has already been accepted to most of the schools that she's applied to. We are awaiting news from just two more.

I might sell my home one day, but it won't be until after DD#1 graduates.

SusieQ,
I keep busy with work, coaching basketball, church, and writing a blog for a Bay Area Newspaper covering an NBA team. I didn't start writing the blog until after my wife left the house.

All of these things have been great outlets and have kept me going. It's only when I have downtime (driving to work, the end of evenings when I don't have the girls, etc.) that I get really down.

I'd talk to her about it if you haven't already, if I were you. Let her know you'd do it for her, if that's what she needs, so she isn't secretly feeling trapped in a peer group that has turned against her just because she only has 1 semester left. Four months can be a very long time for a 17/18 year old girl, and a lot of emotional damage can be done during that time.

I will definitely talk to her about it. She and I talk often about how she's dealing with it, and I also talk to her younger sister asking her to keep a close eye on things and to "be there for her."

Valentines day is a hard day for many of us who post here. Today is hard for me; that's for sure. My wife heads to India this week to be with her affair partner again. But I'm not going to let it get me down. I have too many blessings to count. Wishing all of you the best. I know your faith and commitment will help you through today and the days that follow.

And to those in happy, thriving marriages, congratulations! I hope that you enjoy the Valentines Day holiday with your spouse and do something special for them. To borrow from the band Alabama:

Don't ever take it for granted
It's more than sowing some seeds
It takes sun and water
So give it what it needs.

God bless!

My WW took off for India on Thursday to spend time with her affair partner. She is a teacher and has the week off, so she will be gone 10 days. My DD#1 also has the week off from school, and she is angry that her mom will be gone. DD#2 also isn't happy, but she is not affected the same way. After WW took off for India on Thursday, I told the girls that it still stings every time she leaves to see him. They said it stings them too. They said that when they are at her house she mostly stays in the room. She's either sleeping or Skyping with the other man.

My WW's first AP was in Malaysia. Now it's India. She is always the one to fly overseas; they never come here. I'm glad because I don't want these POSOM anywhere near my daughters. I texted this current AP and told him that it would not be good for him to encounter my daughters or me. He didn't reply.

My wife celebrates her birthday this week. A year ago we went to NAPA for a weekend to celebrate. We had a great time and we were both so happy and in love. Within 4 months she would begin looking outside the marriage for action. I showed my daughter a picture of the two of us posing for a picture in our convertible during that Napa get-away, and DD#1 asked me to send her a copy of it.

It's been a solid two months since WW and I have talked. Plan B is holding strong. We are officially divorced on March 9. Acceptance is slow in coming. I still have not come to terms with the idea of being divorced. I guess that is the way it is for owners; whereas renters just move on. As the song goes, "When a heart breaks it don't break even." I will start my annulment paperwork this week. If my marriage is annulled acceptance might come easier, though I feel as though I will always hold onto the baggage of this broken marriage. I want to be able to just move forward and leave the relationship behind, but I can't shake the idea that vows mean something.

Getting an annulment in the Catholic church isn't a slam dunk. I will have to prove that the marriage wasn't valid when we exchanged vows. But there are many things that occurred in the course of our marriage that may point to invalidity, especially her conversion to Islam, her claim that she never believed in the trinity, and her constant speaking of divorce even early on in our 24 year marriage.