<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I was joking, and it has been used in therapy sessions to relieve stress...you punch a pillow and imagine the person you are angry at to relieve stress....but it was realyl just a joke, but you both are too angry to see that it was just that...and decisions to end a marriage aren't made in an instant, what is with the haste? Arguments happen, bad ones...awful ones...
it happens to everyone!

Carina..
the kids are not here. As far as the ring, I took it off because Im told that L wont change because she's already right...so what else is there?

Have you two ever thought of NOT sharing your posts with each other? It seems like you need separate places to vent, where the venting itself does not become part of the problem.

The thought of "Just who ARE you?" is a very common one in marriage. It doesn't mean she doesn't want to be married anymore.

Hi Tom,

It’s good to meet you. I’m L&F, a rather new member myself. Like my life, I’m sure the truth lies somewhere between. We all say things we regret in moments of stress.

I recommend you put down the gloves first and see, if Laura will meet you in the middle. It sounds like she’s hurting, because right or wrong she feels like she’s not being included in some part of your life. You sound calm and like your thinking straight. Maybe you can get her to calm down and explain what changes she would like to see. She may have some very reasonable requests that would make a world of difference to her. From my experience many conflicts are over little things and pride gets in the way. Maybe you can give a little and she will do the same.

We are here for the both of you. I think it’s great that you’re both working on your marriage and are here. This is a bump in the road and not a good time to make life-changing decisions.

We care for you both and we are here to help.

Take Care,
Derrel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ July 07, 2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Lost & Found ]</small>

Hi Lucks & Tom!

You guys are having a blowup right now and when the dust settles I know you will be back to being best friends.

It's just that for some reason, when the man gets emotional, reaches his boiling point and blurts out insults, it's REALLY bad!!! Cuz I guarantee you when the dust from this blowup settles, Lucks will still be hearing those words "your fat a__" over and over and over...

For some reason, men have a thicker skin and can get over our insults quicker. Not saying it doesn't hurt as much, I KNOW it does. I think that what she really wants is for you, Tom, to please just quit that job!! I have been begging you to do this from Day One before you ever started posting. When you finally posted how come you won't just change jobs, all you said was "it's complicated."

I think that club JOB is what is the root of some major problems in your relationship. For some reason that dang job comes up in ALL of your big blowups!!! Think about it?!?

Tom, if money was no object, what would you do for a living? Could you be a personal body guard? Would that make enough money for you? There must be something else you could do? Something with more normal hours where you could be with your W doing MB work together?

I work nights too so I KNOW how a relationship gets challenged when one person is normally a daytime sleeper. Just trying to plan weekend events causes STRESS to the night owl cuz all the night owl wants to do on days off is TAKE NAPS!!! Believe me, I'm feeling that pressure going on in your marriage!

This is a safe and fair place for both of you to vent. I think it is good that you both come and share your sides of the story. There are always two viewpoints. Just go back and revisit the conflict that got you into this withdrawal state and you have to go back through it to restore intimacy...

I believe the true conflict lies within your career choice, Tom. Are you willing to sacrifice your marriage because of your job? Is your job worth more than your marriage???

Now Lucks, you know what you did wrong. Nobody has to tell you that. You should apologize. You both should. And now, it looks like you are going to have to work out a little bit, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The only reason that comment could have hurt you is if it were somewhat true... (Like, just like a couple of weeks ago when my H said I was being "negative and ugly." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm feelin' ya, woman! *I* think I have a too big butt myself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) So just suck it up and change what you can and whatever else you are willing to allow God to change (insecurities) and be patient with yourself & your H. You'll get there! You HAVE A MB MARRIAGE!

The way I see it, if one person is working the concepts backwards and forwards, that's already HALF the battle!!!! & how many couples do you know who both post on the forum(s)??? NOT MANY! So here you go! Count your blessings and keepa going. You guys are nowhere near emptying your love banks. I just sense that. HUGS and lots of make-up kisses! Yes???

And Tom,
Another thing that came to my mind while thinking about the butt remark, and since you don't seem to want to "show off your wife" at your place of work, can you imagine how that comment could make her wonder exactly WHOSE butt have you been looking at lately that looks so good to you? WHY can't she come the club with you? Is it because you are not proud of how your wife looks? If you are proud of the way your wife looks, would you allow a derrogatory comment about her rear end to even cross your lips? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Now, your comment may not have been related to anything other than the heat of the moment, but now, can you see how a woman would string everything together and it causes one huge, gigantic major love bank withdrawal??? Please apologize and tell your wife she has a fine butt, and a cute butt, and it's the perfect butt for you! and never, never, ever, EVER tell her anything derrogatory about her body ever, ever again in life!!!! EVER!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

REGARDLESS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wow! Tom & Laura,

Stress is running really high right now - I doubt if either of you is thinking very straight about anything right at this moment.

AS for taking sides... Sorry - don't think so - been there done that - and it doesn't look really good on either side.

You both have really high tempers, and when you spout off - it doesn't matter at the time who hurst who.

A lot of both your issues are based around the club/job/life and REALITY gets in the way of using concepts you BOTH know and understand. It's easy to blow and loose control of your own thoughts and words - and it DOES happen. But that doesn't mean you have to allow it to continue.

Tom, your job has been an issue - for both of you. It is high stress and demanding. You have mentioned that you don't really LIKE the job too - that you are only there for the money. Sometimes, peace of mind/marriage/family, require some generous thinking that has nothing to do with money... Maybe you need to rethink your reasons for working there.

It might be helpful if you both wrote down a list of your own personal perspectives and issues - put it here if you want - on individual threads - some of us here are fairly good at sorting things out.

YOU know that we love you as much as Laura. It isn't an issue of who loves who the mostest... that's kind of a staid arguement - so let's not go there - let's find a solution to the problem instead.

Laura calm down - act with the concepts - you know them too well to drop the ball at this point. You are frightened and hurt - so let go and meet your needs for the moment - come back to this discussion later.

Hugs to you both.

Jan

Wow.. some of these replies are so wildly off base Im not even sure how to reply back. "A personal bodygaurd"?? As in to put my body and life on the line for someone else?? I dont think so, I have a family to care for myself. "Not proud of how my wife looks"?? "Just Who's butt have I been looking at"?? Dont fool yourself into thinking that you know anything about my thoughts. I know L has posted about many things and I have said that she posts very one sided, so if your basing your opinion of me and my thoughts on her posts, try again. As far as my job goes, its very easy for others to say to just quit the job. Tell ya what, take up a collection for my bills and I'll find another line of employment. I want to remind everyone that I was working at that club before we were ever married. This was NOT a career change that was forced on my wife. Now, I dont know where most of you live, but this is Kentucky and the pay scale sucks. Ive tried other jobs, even worked for the state. I was making a whopping 1100 dollars a month. I now make more than that in a week. I have 5 people to support in this family, so I will continue to earn the money necessary to do so. Given my choice, and my choice only, I would not stay at the job Im in now, nor would I continue to live in such a depressed area. However, I have joint custody of my son with my ex wife (he lives with us) and there is no chance of us moving out of state with my son. Bottom line is, we're stuck here and I need to make the kind of money that the club provides. Any of you with kids knows how expensive it is to provide for them. My step-daughter's dad sends child support when he feels like sending it, if at all. When his check doesnt come, who do you think makes up the difference?? To answer the question is my job more important than my marriage... I can only answer that my job allows me to provide for my family, and I do. Shoul I tell my family that we should give up our house and lower our standard of living because my job isnt on everyone's top 10 list?

Tom and Laura:

It grieves me much (and I am sure many on this board share this feeling) to see you both suffer. If there was a way to wave a magic wand and make all this pain and suffering disappear for both of you, I would do this in a hearbeat.. But alas, that is fantasyland and reality is harsh.

I will offer no suggestions, except to say that I grieve for you both and shall pray for you both.

Please, please call a time out and put some space in between to reflect. It has been said that: "Absence makes the heart grow fonder..." but the realities of everyday surely come in the way.

Keep posting both of you (Laura and Tom). This community is here to help you both. In the meantime, I shall pray...

More thoughts on my job. I go to work every day and do my job very well. When Im at work, its all business. Ive never had any sort of affair in or out of work. I dont flirt, play,or tease with any of my employees. I do my job, I come home, and I give all of my earnings to care for my family. My W's ex was an insurance claims rep. Nice job. A socially acceptable job. A job that the man was fired from for sexual harassment. A man that took his earnings and spent them on himself, running credit cards so high that bankruptcy was inevitable. Nice job, huh. Is it really the job that matters or the person doing it? I could work in a factory and find plenty of things to do that would be harmful to marriage if I so chose. I know that some people look at my job and automatically figure that there is a sexual element that is so strong that it cant be escaped. I think maybe that just shows their own weakness and has nothing to do with mine personally. Ive read in many stories on this board about infidelity... how many of them are involving strip club managers and how many are involving "normal" jobs? Maybe there arent that many married strip club managers, but the point is you dont have to work in a strip club to have an affair. Any job can be condusive to an affair if the person doing it allows that to happen.
I know Ive been on a rant here and Id like to stop for a moment and thank the people on this board who do post helpful thoughts. L urges me to post more often. I tell her that I do feel that to some, Ive been pre-judged and opinions have already been formed. Jan, I saw where you posted "as for taking sides, I dont think so". I dont think YOU do. However, we have talked some and I think you know me a bit better than most on this board. I thank you for not taking sides. I do feel that you are one of the few that hasnt done that. Im still kind of reeling over the pillow with a pic of my face on it being punched. I have read that punching a pillow can be theraputic, but never read anything about imaganing someones face on it.
I really do hope that L and I can work out our differences. I know we love each other deeply and I know that we are both very intense people. When things are good, they are great. When things get bad, its very ugly. Sometimes we have more than our share of problems, but overall, I do feel we work on things together.

Hi Laura, Hi Tom--

I am very sorry you guys are going thru another one of these big fights.

Over the time I've been at MB, it's been apparent to me that you guys DO care very much about each other. These things just build up over time, until something sets it off and you both "blow"....then the rule of protection flies out the door and you hurt each other, not because love is lacking, but because tempers and hurts are running too high...

Give yourselves some time to cool off. I think you'll find that you do love each other, you just hate the blow-ups. Maybe when all is calmer, you can think togther about what causes them, and figure out a way to let the pressure off before it blows. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hope so. Hugs to you both--

Kathi

<small>[ July 08, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Im still kind of reeling over the pillow with a pic of my face on it being punched. I have read that punching a pillow can be theraputic, but never read anything about imaganing someones face on it.
I really do hope that L and I can work out our differences. I know we love each

Hey, that is what I am here for, to tick people off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

TOM, I was kidding, as in trying to make Laura laugh and relax for a minute, it was a joke, and I even put a big grinny thing next to it to try and show that I was just kidding around. <sigh> In the land of discussion forums, sometimes these things come across too subtle to notice.
But, I AM sorry if this upset you-wasn't intended to be hurtful, ok <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Besides, I bet that your energies would be better channeled into talking over that fight last night and trying to figure out a way to fight fair, not use insults and not threaten divorce. Those are serious, and harmful words that WILL echo in a person's head for some time.

Tom - Laura,

Sometimes the seas get so rocky that you spend all your time bailing and don't have much time to just guide the ship to calmer seas. Take time to guide this ship to calmer seas.

You do love each other, and you care about each other, you are just both so busy grasping for the next breath of air that you aren't taking time to remember why you are there in the first place. Once it is calmer you will be okay. Take a few minutes to just catch a breath and regroup - without thinking about how the 'other person' could have said that to you... Remember if you are 'bailing' you can't be 'sailing' so quit bailing and start sailing for calmer seas...

Hugs,

Jan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TomsThoughts:
<strong>Wow.. some of these replies are so wildly off base Im not even sure how to reply back. "A personal bodygaurd"?? As in to put my body and life on the line for someone else?? I dont think so, I have a family to care for myself.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay! Just an idea? Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was just tossing out ideas.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "Not proud of how my wife looks"?? "Just Who's butt have I been looking at"?? Dont fool yourself into thinking that you know anything about my thoughts. I know L has posted about many things and I have said that she posts very one sided, so if your basing your opinion of me and my thoughts on her posts, try again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, not basing MY THOUGHTS on anything whatsoever that your wife has said. Those were MY thoughts, from a woman's perspective. I was just trying to put myself in her shoes and try to figure out how your comment could have possibly, perhaps, maybe, sorta provoked HER to feel or think just because I'm a WOMAN. That's all! Not presuming your thoughts in the least, but glad you clarified. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>To answer the question is my job more important than my marriage... I can only answer that my job allows me to provide for my family, and I do. Shoul I tell my family that we should give up our house and lower our standard of living because my job isnt on everyone's top 10 list?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, just ask your wife how she feels and what is important to her. Just giving you my impression of the root cause of all the fights.

Musta struck a nerve or something??? Not trying to, just wondering if there is a possibility of negotiating a career change in order to stamp out the main cause of the big blowups. Just from what I see from the outside looking in. You guys have a blowup maybe once every so often and it seems to always have something to do with that job. I don't care what job you do. I don't have a top 10 list. It's all about your wife's feelings and the Policy of Joint Agreement between YOU guys!

Nobody said you are not a good provider or father! Evidently you are! It's just that each other's feelings can't be ignored or else everything that is being shoved under the rug rears its ugly head over time!!! The feelings of everyone need to be out in the open.

Laura - I hope your feeling better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I just wanted you to know that I've thinking about you. Both of you guys are in my thoughts and prayers. Blessing, L&F

star--

Thanks, sweetie, for "being there" for me. I've been really tired, probably just fight aftermath. Also feel a little withdrawn and guarded.

Elizabeth--

I love you too.

Do--

Thanks. I know you have your hands full, I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I guess I'll keep trying to MB. I love him very much but I feel real confused and...disconnected...right now. Could be because I don't feel Tom will respond to my feelings if I voice them...unless he relates to them somehow in a black-and-white way (admittedly difficult since I'm such a gray area thinker) so I'd rather stay quiet than risk emotional rejection. That brick wall is getting cranky; it keeps asking when I'm gonna clang it.

d8--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when you welcomed me to my first new posting you sounded so cool,calm and together</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usually I am. But all us Stepford wives need regular maintenance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In answer to your q's, no, actually, we really don't fight that often. But when we do, they're horrendous. I think we both let unresolved feelings build up into resentment and eventually we both reach a pressure-cooker point at the same time. A counselor explained to me that Tom's temperature gauge is actually trickier than mine (can go from cool to hot rapidly), so he advised plenty of sunscreen when a heat front is developing. I thought that was a neat, and surprisingly accurate, analogy. I forgot my sunscreen so it should be no surprise I got burned.

TheUnwanted--

Thanks for the tension breaker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jan--

Words really aren't necessary, are they? Oh yeah, I guess they are when our primary form of communication is the internet. The check's in the mail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ghnl--

I agree with you...three sides...his feelings, my feelings, and reality. We forget we're supposed to be on the same team and that's when everything goes haywire.

carina--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when us women are angry, there is no point reasoning</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've tried to explain this to Tom...women tend to think emotionally. Help soothe the feeling and then we can move on to the logical stuff WITH them! But what to do when the man reacts emotionally??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

When we launch into our infamous LOVEBUSTORAMAS, we're both waiting for the other to save the situation.

Julie--

Yeah, I don't know whether it's helpful or harmful for us to post on the same threads. Still confused about that, so I'm avoiding responding directly to what Tom posted. Since we were both venting there's not really anything that needs a response. He thinks I got some stuff all wrong and I feel the same in reverse. So I guess vent sessions definitely should be avoided at least until we're able to tackle ISSUES with clearer heads.

I may try to respond to some things he said later, but only if my Giver cooperates. My Giver and Taker are duking it out right now.

Derrel--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">right or wrong she feels like she’s not being included in some part of your life</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have nailed the top head on the totem pole. Bingo.

Thanks for checking on us.

BTDT--

I've been thinking about your reply. You're grasping many of my feelings, if it was just MY decision. But it's not. I may be thinking about this all screwy, but I really do feel I try to compromise. Tom doesn't have to quit his job, all I ask if that he listen to my concerns and take me up there sometimes. Not even often, or regularly! It's just that time will pass, and this feeling will start rising...a feeling of being...too compartmentalized? I'm NOT "okay" with him working there when I feel he wants to keep me totally separated from it. My mind then CREATES problems. It feels...hmm...kind of like...I'm a vested interest partner who oughta take a tour of the facility a few times a year for agreement renewal on that particular venture? I don't know if that makes sense or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only reason that comment could have hurt you is if it were somewhat true...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I'm following you there. I'd like to lose 20, maybe 25 pounds. It was a below-the-belt remark (pun, my humor is returning a little) which triggered memories from my first marriage in a weird way. Ex was a butt man who didn't particularly care for the more bountiful top-types, like me. I always felt my butt was lacking and Tom actually had done wonders for me to feel more accepting of my shape. Then to hear a butt insult, spiced with a curse word that steams me AND the word "fat," referring to ANY part of my anatomy...well, I'm still scraping myself off the sidewalk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well, life goes on.

Tom says "f*cking* a lot. I don't know how long he'll retain this knowledge, but I think in another instance he's realizing my first reaction when he says the "f*cking club" is very different than what he MEANS. I get an instant, very different, word picture that makes me feel uncomfortable.

LI--

Thank you for your caring reply. You have a very nice posting style.

Kathi--

Hang in there with us. You know the drill. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm going to think some more, then post some more later. Thanks again, everybody.

<small>[ July 12, 2002, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Lucks ]</small>

Tom, Laura:

Simply put, your problems stem mainly from not following the Rule of Protection. You're both lovebusting. Stop it. NOW!

Seriously, you both need to define the top two lovebusters that are affecting your marriage, and then you both need to sit down and make a plan to eliminate them. Stick with it. Get rid of the disrespect and the angry outbursts, and you'll both feel much better. And it doesn't matter who's right or who started it---apologize. Don't defend.

There---I just saved you $160 session with Steve.

The only other issue that I see is the amount of time that you spend together---try to schedule more of that (as long as you're both not carrying sharp objects... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). You guys appear to do an excellent job meeting each other's needs, for the most part. It's these frickin' lovebusting episodes that explode every 6 months or so that are killing you. Honestly, you can learn to eliminate these---if I did it, I'm betting that anyone can.

Whew! I musta missed all this somewhere in the Fourth of July fireworks! (Is that where they were coming from?)

Well, it looks like I got some reading up to do, for now I'll just offer you both (HUGS)!

I'll have to put my 2 cents in when I read up into the details better!

Well, I think you guys are doing a good job with all you have on your plate--blended family, odd hours, etc. Hang in there. Maybe you just needed a date and some alone-time for conversation, or even a mini-vacation for just the two of you!? I DO understand that you need to feel more "connected" to his jobplace. We wives do not like to feel shut out of any facet of our H's lives. I know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And yes, I'm totally feelin' ya on the fat butt remark.. OMG! I guess it's okay if he thinks it a million times a day but to actually say it. OUCH! I don't think he meant it the way (we) took it. Just the timing and word choice and everything made it seem worse.

I hope you guys have both apologized to each other by now. With lots of make-up hugs and kisses and everything?!?! Go on now--kiss and make up if you haven't already! Thanks Lucks for the update. Be a good girl! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Forgive and let it drop!