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Ending contact with a lover after an affair is absolutely essential to recovery. Recovery will not take place until that happens.
The reason I am starting this thread is that we seem to have many people here who think it is ok to go along with foolishness like "professional" contact or other somesuch nonsense. It is NOT. Calling an affair some new cute name does not change its nature. If I call a baloney sandwich a dog, it is not going to magically become a DOG. I PROMISE YOU IT WILL ALWAYS BE A BALONEY SANDWICH.
If you don't believe that ending all contact is absolutely essential, I would invite you read some of the threads on this forum of on-again, off-again affairs because the BS did not heed this warning. And it usually due to a desire to take the easier, softer way.
As patriot once said, "conflict avoidance always causes MORE conflict." That is the truth in this matter.
One cannot FORCE a WS to quit a job, but one CAN enforce his own boundaries and insist that no contact take place. Without it, recovery is impossible anyway.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2 How Should Affairs End? Never see or communicate with a former lover Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage. The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay. Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity? In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. <snip> We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation. Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material... p. 177 ...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them. I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I am quoting starfish from another post. She hit the nail on the head with : Everyday almost, a BS says no contact is not possible. What they really mean is they think it's too "hard". I'll tell you what's really too hard....divorce.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It really does take a while for a FWS to actually get how important NC really is!
Thanks Mel for posting this.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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bumping because we have several new people here who don't GET how essential NC is to recovery. If a WS will not end contact, even if it means leaving his job, then Plan B is warranted. Dr. Harley recommends that Plan A last 3-4 WEEKS for women, up to 6 months for MEN.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Requirements for Recovery from an Affair The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bcas your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance. Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place. Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr. Harley recommends that Plan A last 3-4 WEEKS for women, up to 6 months for MEN. Why does Dr. Harley make this distinction?
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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MelodyLane:
The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ending contact with a lover after an affair is absolutely essential to recovery. Recovery will not take place until that happens.
The reason I am starting this thread is that we seem to have many people here who think it is ok to go along with foolishness like "professional" contact or other somesuch nonsense. It is NOT. Calling an affair some new cute name does not change its nature. If I call a baloney sandwich a dog, it is not going to magically become a DOG. I PROMISE YOU IT WILL ALWAYS BE A BALONEY SANDWICH.
If you don't believe that ending all contact is absolutely essential, I would invite you read some of the threads on this forum of on-again, off-again affairs because the BS did not heed this warning. And it usually due to a desire to take the easier, softer way.
As patriot once said, "conflict avoidance always causes MORE conflict." That is the truth in this matter.
One cannot FORCE a WS to quit a job, but one CAN enforce his own boundaries and insist that no contact take place. Without it, recovery is impossible anyway. Amen! My FWH dumped OW pronto but there were a few times after D-day and the promise of NC that OW would call him freaking out to find out what I had told her H. My H answered the call knowing it was her and I would have to 2x4 him all over again. Geez you promise and swear never to speak to her again and two days later you're worried about HER more than ME!! :twobyfour: :twobyfour: DH got the message loud and clear after that.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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I agree, agree, agree!!!.
My FWH was totally unable to maintain NC until he left his job and we moved to a different state. At the beginning, "it was well, we just have to talk at work. Talking to her is the same as talking to anyone else." Then in a NY minute, they were out chatting during smoke breaks, still saying "I still love you, but I can't be with you because I want to be with my family, blah, blah, blah; what is your wife telling my husband and vice versa". Where's the vomit icon when you need it?
Three months plus between D Day and when H kicking and screaming wrote his NC letter. Even his last day of work, OW came to him and asked to talk and he said OK. For weeks afterward, he was still so foggy and full of gaslighting. It almost ended it for me. Now, I finally feel as though we are starting to recover.
I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. I think the exposure to everyone who can help and NC are absolute keys to recovering a marriage.
AM
BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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Thank you for posting this ML. I certainly agree that NC means NC and any contact is very harmful. I just want to clarify something with plan A. Dr. Harley recommends that Plan A last 3-4 WEEKS for women, up to 6 months for MEN. And I'm glad you supporting it with this. If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer. The important points here are that Dr. Harley starts at 3-4 weeks and 6 months and if they are doing well he suggests that they continue. He does say that it is "inexact". And that a good support system is can "often keep a person in plan A much longer" I would assume the reverse is true too. If the person is being told to kick the WS to the curb it will hinder their plan and end it prematurely and make recovery less likely. Unfortunately, some people tell newbies to kick their WS to the curb, telling the newbie that they are in denial or without even considering the emotional strength or the perseverance of the BS. So it sounds like helping the BS stay in plan A as long as they are able and strong enough is what Dr. Harley suggests. Just wanted to make sure that was clarified for the new posters. Blessings. S&C
No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. Fear I suppose...fear of the financial impact or the anger/resentment of their spouse or both. There's no way I could have tolerated my H still being in contact with OW in any way shape or form. Not enforcing NC while trying to recover a M is the kiss of death.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Unfortunately, some people tell newbies to kick their WS to the curb, telling the newbie that they are in denial or without even considering the emotional strength or the perseverance of the BS. SC, I think it is important to point out that we, as internet posters, ARE NOT QUALIFIED to judge the emotional strength or perseverance level of anyone. [and the poster is usually LESS objective than we are] You are not qualified and neither am I. That is why I stick to what Dr Harley says, ie: 3-4 weeks for women and 6 months for men. Even Dr Harley points out that if he doesn't know the person he is inclined to stick to those parameters. " If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men."<-----that is what I tell people since I am not qualified to discern anyone's emotional strength. If Dr. Harley "tends to stick to the safe side" by recommending 3-4 weeks for women and 6 months for men, I am inclined to do the SAME. He is a psychologist after all.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. I think the exposure to everyone who can help and NC are absolute keys to recovering a marriage. It's easy to understand. The early days of a newly betrayed BS are a dimension of h*** that cannot be described unless you've been there. You can't decide if you need to go to the kitchen or the bathroom, let alone make life changing decisions. Some of the most effective MB tools are somewhat counter-intuitive, like exposure. Plus, you've got a fog-babbling WS telling you things and you WANT to believe them. It's hard to take the word of strangers on a forum over your beloved spouse, wavering though (s)he might be. If (s)he says there's NC, you want to believe it. If (s)he says he can end the A and still work with the OP, you WANT to believe it. And you are trying to act with a mind and heart that is critically damaged from the A in the first place. So, yes, I understand completely.
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I don't understand all the people here who are suffering so deeply, but are so unwilling or unable to take the very actions that are needed to mend the marriage. I think the exposure to everyone who can help and NC are absolute keys to recovering a marriage.
AM It is because some are not capable of putting their emotions aside and following a strategic plan. Dr Harley mentioned this aspect a few times on his radio show, and said something to the effect that if a person was not able to follow a PLAN and put aside emotions, they probably would have a very rough road. And that is what I see here. Those who tend to be ruled by emotions don't usually fare well because they cannot follow a plan of action. I will add that almost everyone is very emotional when they come here. Some can operate in spite of them, others cannot. The ones who cannot are severely handicapped, IMO.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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p.s. and the leading emotion, IMO, is usually FEAR. When fear rules, the person is paralyzed and all hope goes out the window.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm glad to read this. It explains ALOT.
MBers HELPED me to PUT MY EMOTIONS ASIDE.
I think that's a HUGE PART of the HEALING PROCESS for the BETRAYED SPOUSE...was for me...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I'm glad to read this. It explains ALOT.
MBers HELPED me to PUT MY EMOTIONS ASIDE. I remember that you were able to put your emotions aside and stick to a PLAN very well. Having a PLAN seemed to even CALM you down. You were a MASTER of taking the PLAN and adding to it when you saw opportunities.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Another way of looking at this is that you CANNOT do what comes NATURALLY...cry, scream, beg, holler..all of that STUFF..makes it ALL WORST...
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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