I apologize... I just previewed this and it is enormous. I guess that being that it is my first post, it can serve as a starting point for anyone willing to read it through.

First marriage was 11 years, 2 boys currently 14 and 10, divorced 5 years ago due to her repeated infidelity and at her ultimate behest.

Currently married 18 months, met 18 month after divorce. Together 2 years before marriage. She has 2 girls ages 8 and 5. Their father is not in the picture to any significant degree.

I was somewhat pushed into getting married (she just kept wanting to be married, and although I wanted to, I didn't really feel ready. I asked, and we were married after knowing each other about 3 years or so.) During our courtship (yea I just said courtship.. heh) we hit it off immediately, to the point that after dinner and on the walk back to the car, I whirled her around and kissed her. I had dated probably 30 women (one time dates) before her, none before divorce was final.

Our relationship was pretty good. She was very loving, and complimented me, was physically loving both sexually, as well as just publically hugging and kissing me. She is quite intelligent, beautiful, etc etc etc. I fell in love with this person. Immediately upon our marriage.. and I mean IMMEDIATELY... that stopped. It is cliche to say... but since we have been married, we have had sex about 1/20th as often if that, as before. She has initiated probaly 3-4 times consisting of saying, "come get in bed". I spent the first 6-8 months being turned down consistently to the point that at about year one, I think we had had sex about 18 times total. I took her to Italy for 2 weeks on our Honeymoon, renting villas in both Positano and Tuscany. Yea... I thought I was going to "get some"... we didn't consumate our marriage for 5 days! And then it was more begrudgingly on her part, at least that is how I felt.

We haven't had sex in probably 3 months except for a single time in the middle of the night, which she initiated. Unfortunately, I believe it was because she had a 'hot-n-heavy" dream, and she awakened aroused and I was just available. At least that is how it felt. I no longer even try, because the feeling of being turned down or potentially even worse, grudgingly abliged is worse than just the feelings of disconnect and unloved-ness that I feel currently.

We have subsequently had several more difficulties on several fronts. There is so much depth to this, It would require a book. But in essense, she had no father, step-father was 'abusive verbally' and a drunk. Mother was not loving and until just the last year or two, she had a horrible relationship with her. Overall, she just seems like a small, scared, little girl who has put up a huge defensive shield in order to protect herself, and her girls. And until she married me... she had nothing to lose.... but NOW.... she has a marriage to lose. She lost her main luggage bag on the trip over, so she had no clothes. I tried to say, Lets go buy some more, but she just stayed in bed for 2 days. I felt as though she had completely chosen a damn bag of clothes over me. It essentially stayed the same way the since that day... we have never been a team.

I feel as though I have an opponent instead of a wife. For at leas 9-10 months after we were married, she was openly hostile. We went to marriage counseling, but it was like she didn't want to hear anything. I would be open and honest with her about my feelings... with "I feel" statements.... she said "Its always about YOU !!!"... It is like I said... She is like a young girl who has circled the wagons since the day we were married, and won't do anything about it.

We have had a couple breakpoints, where we were essentially 'done' but never broke up. One was in Feb, where I found some things she had written about my youngest boy in an email to her mom, and I about left her on the spot. She begged and pleaded, said she wanted to do things differently, wanted counseling, to read, etc. None of which she would do before, despite my subtle and sometimes not so subtle hints/request. She went to counseling ONCE, and no more. The one thing which did change, is that she was no longer OVERTLY furious with everyone. She became much more passe, but angry behind the scenes, passive aggressive, dismissive, and more inclined to ignore any interaction.

I make good money, and before we were married, was providing money for her to go back to college and to live on. That amount did not change upon our marriage which was one of my mistakes. I should have brought it up and we should have changed it from yours/mine to ours. She spends it as though it is pocket change, and it is anything but. I still pay for everything else, but now she has no bills/mortgage, etc. This is a mildly sore spot, but not my main one at the time. I do wonder if I am just an ATM to her.

Anyway, we have had a worse and worse time as we go along. We went to Chicago the weekend after TGday, and were doing mildly OK. I wanted to buy a pair of shoes, and was wearing white athletic socks, which she was quick to point out to the person helping me in a derisive tone (jokingly disgusted would be a good way to put it.) Then when the man asked me if I wanted to wear them out, she almost fell out of the chair telling him NO !!!. I felt small... like the guys who are dominated by their wives. I am not at all, but I felt that way inside the store. I then went to the counter, and saw that they had socks, and told the guy, I would wear them out and I would just buy some different socks. He picked out 3 pair which he felt would be good. She walked over and immediately, and quite loudly, began telling me how "MY choices" in colors and the socks were very bad, and that I should NOT get those, and why not just get brown socks. He looked at me, I asked him for brown socks, he gave me a couple pair, and I just touched one pair, and she said, loudly again at the counter with 3 people behind it and about 3 people waiting in line, NOT THOSE !!! I don't like those. I felt, smaller and smaller, and finally I picked out what she wanted, put them on and walked out of the store. As we walked up the street, I said, " I love you, but you made me feel more emasculated in there than I have ever felt in my life." She just stopped, looked at me incredulously, and said "I am going..." turned and walked down the street the way we had come. No I am sorry... at the time or since. No I understand, no nothing. She NEVER says I am sorry when she hurts me... she says "I am sorry" if a box of pasta falls off the shelf as I get a can out of the pantry ie... NOTHING TO DO WITH HER OR REASON FOR HER TO SAY I AM SORRY... but she won't even acknoowledge when she hurts my feelings or attacks me directly.

A little over a week ago, I sat down with her, told her I love her and the girls, want to be her husband and the girls daddy. But that we were not acting like we cared about each other. We have become better at being opponents than couple. We find it easier to hurt each other than help. We are more comfortable being apart than together... etc. I told her that I was going to continue counseling (I have been going to our MC all this time, she quite). I simply stated that if she wanted our marriage to continue, there were several things I needed for her to do. If any of them were too much, all she needed to do was tell me and it was fine. I said she needed to 1) get a personal counselor, discuss with him/her our marriage and the possibility of medication to even out her moods. 2) find an intensive weekend for marriage counseling away somewhere, such as the Marriagebuilders workshop (I didn't tell her MB... just something intensive, away, and geared towards getting us reconnected.) and 3) Set up a time once a week, during which we just sit and talk about how we are doing in our marriage. I said, if any of these things are intolerable, or she feels they are too much to do, or she just doesn't want to do them, that it was OK, to just tell me. If that was the case, I said I would like to try to make it through Christmas for the kids sake, and sometime in mid January, to split up and begin divorce proceedings. She sat there, kind of smug, with just a tiny hint of sadness... didn't say anything. Nodded her head curtly, and we were done. It was extremely calm and unemotional. More of a solemn... this is the way it is for me, kind of thing.

Since that time, she has been quasi-loving ie nice without any significant anger. She has been somewhat interactive, and a bit more jovial when the kids are around. She has been 'nice' to me and kisses me goodnight, if she goes before me. She has been a bit nicer, but no direct discussion about my points I made to her. I don't know if it is simply to keep the peace, and she is relieved to be 'over', I don't think this is it. OR whether it is because she is trying to be 'good'. But regardless... I am not biting the hook, because this has been an action several times before, when we have trouble, she pulls it together for 2-3 weeks, but then we are right back to where we were before, with me more and more removed and bitter.

At the moment, I am of 2 minds... thinking she is doing something, but has yet to tell me... and thinking that she is doing nothing more than she has always done and she thinks it will turn out differently THIS time. I guess there is a third thinking... that she is planning on leaving... and trying to keep the peace and get set up in a beneficial way to herself. I don't know. We have a prenup, she would certainly get less in divorce than if we were married, but I don't know if she is mature enough to see her point in life. It is as if she is a stubborn teenager, who wants something her way, and puts on blinders to the world because the world isn't working into her plans.

I don't know... I am trying to stay positive and give back positives when she gives them. But I am NOT setting myself up to be pulled back in again like so many times before. I have finally gotten to the point where if we were to divorce, I would be OK, although not want it. I will not continue the marriage without the aforementioned actions on her part. I don't believe that we can flourish, and I am no longer willing to just survive at a subsistence level. I have less now being married than I had before, simply because before, I had an opportunity to LOOK for someone to enjoy time with. I am 39... not that old. I have alot to offer, and I don't want to live the rest of my life with someone who ignores EVERYTHING about me except the bad. My boys deserve to see something better from life than a dad who is miserable in marriage. I don't want to be her version of her step-dad to her girls. (I have a very good relationship with them both. Both calling me daddy, which I enjoy immensely.)

My first guess would be that, as you say, she is severely traumatized by her childhood. She pushed to marry, thinking it would 'fix' her. But all those feelings are still here, so now she's angry and afraid she made the wrong decision and made things worse.

If so, I would recommend heavy counseling for her. I mean, deep stuff. If it helps her for you to go, do so, but I'd bet she's ashamed of herself and her life or whatever, and fearful that if anyone were to know the 'real' her, they would hate her like she herself does. That's why I recommend personal C, so she can get over all that FOO stuff. It could take years.

The only other possibilities that come to mind are (1) you changed but don't realize it, and are giving LBs and DJs and she wasn't expecting it; (2) she did indeed just marry you for security and now feels she doesn't have to pretend any more; or (3) she really didn't want to marry you because of someone else, or else she met someone else and wishes she were with him.

IgnoredNTired, welcome to MB! Have you read the basic Concepts? What do you think so far?

We usually start with identifying and eliminating our own LBs. And it is a great place to start. But this is really different, someone feeling so threatened by what shoes and socks you are wearing that they would Act out so forcefully. Especially after you were H&O about the consequence her behavior had for you. Have you asked her what is the matter that this bothered her so badly? When we have had posters posting about this kind of behavior, their wives are very early 20s, but your W has an 8 year old daughter, so she is not in that age range, right? So is this a maturity issue or something else?

Anyhow, even if she cannot pinpoint for you why she had such an extreme reaction, this program doesn't rely on figuring out the "why's". It will help you create a totally different environment. You have a real leg up in the process with how you are already honest with her instead of LBing back.

What help are you looking for?

You sounds like an intelligent, thoughtful and very loving person. I wonder though if you have some major issues with communication?

Your wife's behavior in the shoe story is odd. Has she done this kind of thing before? I think the way you initially handled it was great. My concern is that you didn't follow through. Why didn't you continue? Most married people would have not let it rest until they got an apology, some kind of affirmation or a conversation going about why she did such a thing. I would not have done ANY KIND of business with her until we had resolved the issue.

The fact that you didn't follow through with this greatly concerns me.

Now you have given her ultimatums. That is also problematic. You have demanded that she does A, B, and C or you will move toward divorce. That is a threat and threats do not work in marriage. They always backfire. I think that is why you are feeling so anxious. If your wife is in fact being nice so you do not leave her, then I am certain she is building up resentment toward you in the process. She probably feels bullied and threatened, even if she realizes on some level that you are right.

There is no real communication going on here either. Why are you not talking about this? Why are you not saying to your wife, "Gee honey...you have been so sweet to me lately and it feels good. How does acting nice toward me make you feel?

You have only been married for 18 months. You are still working the bugs out. The way to work out the bugs is to talk about the stuff that bothers you in a non-judging and respectful way. For example: "Honey...when I tell you something you do hurts my feelings, it means a lot to me to get an apology, even if it wasn't your intent to hurt me."

Like the article, "Ouch! No, let me explain..."

This was the first thing I wondered about. Is there more to this part of the story? I am wondering if she was sexually abused? Could she have used sex to draw you in like when you were dating, then felt ashamed later on so quit??

I think she was upset because her luggage was lost. He said she stayed in the hotel in bed for two days. He wanted her to go buy new clothes but she was too upset.

Imagine planning that perfect honeymoon...spending months finding that perfect bikini and those sexy yet comfortable strappy shoes to match that sexy little black dinner dress?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And your new (and, so you thought, improved) husband thinks you are being unreasonable when you get THAT upset over luggage? Some men are from Mars. Others are from PLUTO!

Now, I didn't see that as ultimatums as much as Boundaries. Her behavior is so different than before marriage, that he is feeling that something needs to change. If she doesn't want to change, that is what it is and he won't stay in the marriage.

My theory is she has low self esteem and doesn't think she is worthy...worthy of being loved or in a relationship...she is waiting for you to abandon her to show her she is right. That is why she may be unconsciously pushing you away to prove her point. Maybe that is why she looked smug after that talk...See? He is leaving me. I knew he would.

Getting so upset and staying in bed for 2 days on a honeymoon and not consumating a marriage for 5 days is not normal. Simply saying its a Mars/Pluto deal is a disservice.

Ummmmm....The relationship was consummated BEFORE the honeymoon. Personally, I would have been EXTREMELY upset AND IN NO MOOD FOR SEX if that happened to me, ESPECIALLY if my husband invalidated my feelings. Are you saying I am not normal?

What in the name of Christmas is "normal?" That sounds incredibly judgemental to me!

If my H said something like that to me, I would feel incredibly threatened, bullied and even abused. I would most definitely feel I was given an ultimatum. Again, the really weird thing is he anxious and he is not talking to her about it.

NO ONE IS COMMUNICATING IN THIS MARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow...I just replied to all points so far, and lost the post. I had to make another account because the other account would not allow me to open threads which were previously posted.

I won't go into the post in depth again right now.

Pieta - While I understand what you 'think' occurred, you do not understand what actually occurred. I spent several days on a street payphone at 4am trying to get her luggage back. I went back to the airport, over 100 miles away to look through the lost luggage rooms. I called, and called. I gave her massages, etc. I gave her time, I even went out and bought her a new dress.

All to no avail. I really did feel as though she would have been happier in Italy if her bag had made it and I had been lost. That is how she treated me. She had ME... her new husband right beside her... and she could do NOTHING without her bag. I admit, I was dissappointed. I felt completely unappreciated and thrown to the side. I also admit, that what I wanted most of all was for her to simply say...."Arrrrgggghhhhhh.... I hate that I lost all my things.... but I have the most important thing right here with me. My new husband." Had anything approaching that occurred.... I would have turned the world upside down trying to make her happy. As it is... I could only muster turning Italy upside down.

Everytime I try to talk with her... I end up talking to her. She won't talk about anything. She will never bring up an issue. ONLY ONE time in our entire marriage, has she brought up an issue, and it was an attack. She makes no attempt at repairing anything if we go wrong. If we begin speaking again, it is because once again, I have made the initial effort to repair whatever has happened.

Peita... in your marriage... can you imagine being so perfect that you don't need to say "I am sorry" even ONCE in a year and a half? What would you think if you were having a tumultuous marriage... and your husband NEVER said I am sorry.... no matter what was going on at the time.

If she feels threatened, bullied, and abused with how I have been, then there is no hope... because I really cannot try any softer, kinder, gentler or less threateningly. You are very quick to point out my faults in communication Pieta... tell me how YOU would appoach it. I am hoping you have the secret I have been missing.

I often see people on this forum send people over to Al Turtle's Website. http://www.turtlecounseling.com/


I think Turtle has something significant to say about why one person in a relationship usually has nothing to say. Turtle believes that the reason is always the the spouse has made it unsafe for the other to talk.


Click on "what to do when he/she won't talk."

To reply to a few other posts.

Cat/ears - I don't believe she was significantly traumatized, however I don't know that for sure. Her family has said (after marriage of course) that she was a terror and down right mean as a girl. She refuses to go to counseling, although she did go early in our relationship to help deal with her mom. I tried to help her see how it helped her with her mom, and that it could help us as well, but she has yet to go, and I don't see anything headed that way. I might be LBing... I really try not to, but I am sure that I do in some ways. I know that our marriage has not been the Cinderella story that I believe she had envisioned, and that she has had only ONE relationship, as far as I know, which I believe she still feels would have been the 'right' one... and I am NOT the other guy. I don't think she has anyone at the moment, and not within our marriage at any time. Although I was fooled during my first marriage.

Her reaction about the shoes was one which seemed more of embarrassment for herself, than anything else. It was as if she wanted to ensure that the salesman knew that she did not approve of me in athletic socks (I don't understand this, but that is how she acted.... and NO... I wasn't wearing dress shoes etc with them.) It was like I was a kid, making all kinds of mistakes in the buying of the shoes... and she had to correct each and every one of them, in front of everyone. The girl behind the desk said, after she walked away from the register "She's a piece of work." I just ignored it. I really felt like she was embarrassed of me, now that I think about it. People certainly don't look at me as if I am ugly, in fact... most just the opposite. She is often talking about how other women look at me... "Did you just see her eyeing you?" She will say... it is paradoxical in fact, now that I think about it. It would seem as though she would be loving and proud to walk with me, but she is almost exactly opposite now that I think about it.

My fantasy would have been for her to see my socks and say something along the lines of "Oh... you have those on.... well... you just wear anything you want... because you are so handsome regardless... you make anything look good." The salesman would have been envious, the saleswoman would have been jealous, and I would have felt GREAT !!! and not a thing would have changed except EVERYTHING from that second on. Remember that ladies... simple concept and a knife edge.... which way do you want to push?

It isn't that she won't talk to me... she won't talk to me about anything concerning US. She wouldn't talk to her mom about anything concerning THEM. When her brother got into an argument with their mom, her advice was to just lay low and not say anything, and it will blow over. Their whole family structure seems to have been when a storm is in force, lay low, until it blows over, and pretend it never existed. They would fight tooth and nail, then ignore each other for 3 days, then go on like nothing at all happened. Then the NEXT time, they would fight about whatever was going on at that time... AND the time before, rinse and repeat.

I give her time, but I waited 2 weeks before, and she won't budge. We walk around the house with our heads down, trying to avoid each other. If I didn't begin speaking... we probably would not have spoken to each other since week one. Her defense it so ignore it until it blows over, then just deal with the basics at hand and ignore the huge cavern you keep falling into.

So now you tell her that this is your fantasy. Take her and go buy another pair of shoes wearing white athletic socks. have some fun with it!!!! That is what my H would do. Go to different shoe stores until you find the right 'fantasy' sales persons. Then it's her turn...she gets to buy shoes and you get to comment on her stockings.

So she doesn't feel safe talking to her mother either. That doesn't get you off the hook. There are a lot of people I don't feel safe talking to either. Fortunately my husband isn't one of them. He has always made sure our marriage was a safe place for me to fall--me too.

Ignored, have you read What to Do With A Controlling Husband? I think that advice would go a long way with your controlling wife. Notice, it doesn't focus on apologies. Like Al Turle's site, it focuses on being partners and creating an environment where you two get happier and happier instead of ticked off. Imagine, no more eggshells to walk on for either of you or your kids!

INT, I encourage you to tell your wife about this site. If she fits the pattern I think she does, she will be very uncomfortable you posting without her opinion, and she will come post her side, too. Then we can support both of you in the goals that you two identify for your halves of the marriage.

What is your plan?

Hi INT,

One thing that catches my eye is this:


While I make no excuses for poor behaviour, I suspect that your wife has never learnt to "fight fair". Her whole life she has only known how to either ignore conflict or leap right into it. She has never learnt how to calmly discuss a problem without attacking and blaming (or being blamed).

So it sounds to me like your wife may simply be doing what she has always done with conflict, but is becoming frustrated that you don't "do the dance" with her (ie. fight/ignore the way she is used to). She is finding herself out of step and out of her element. Hence escalating her anger/frustration.