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John wrote:
I have read several of the MB books, and let me say that if I could have a relationship that encapsulated all of the teachings, I think I could be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately that isn’t the way it is, and that is why I am reaching out. My other half thinks the Policy of Joint Agreement is stupid and unachievable. She has read The Basics per my request as well as starting “His needs her needs for parents” but she feels most of it is unrealistic.

I am in a situation and I am not certain what to do, I am hoping that I can get some advice.

For anonymity reasons I will call myself John and I will call my significant other Jane.

Although it may seem strange, yes I am the male half and I am the one looking for relationship advice. Throughout our relationship I have generally taken the typical female role and she has taken the stereotypical male role.

We met at work, became co-workers, friends and eventually became romantically involved. We were both in bad marriages (mine life-less and love-less where we hardly spoke, and hers angry disrespectful and resentful). We became a sounding board for each other and then became each other’s support system. I had asked for a divorce long before I met Jane, but for a variety of reasons mostly around guilt, I stayed and the rut continued. We eventually had a beautiful child, but as you would suspect, that didn’t fix anything. I asked for a divorce again, but this time I had enough conviction to stop the insanity and salvage the rest of my life.

Jane has 3 girls (14, 13 and 11) and I have 1 girl (5).

Jane’s marriage (as I am told, and what I witnessed at the very end), was full of torment. I believe after their second child, the marriage and the relationship focused away from the couple and 100% of the energy focused on the children. It became a competition on who could attain the most “love” from the children. The competition made them resentful of each other. It was if each tried to out-do each other. The girls were treated like princesses. There was no discipline, there was no disappointment. Every pleasure was fulfilled by one parent or the other. There were no rules. Even at a very young age (8, 7 and 5) each child had a TV, VCR, computer… in their own room. At dinner, each child was allowed to pick what they wanted to eat, so dinner could consist of 3 or 4 different meals, and no one had to eat anything they didn’t want including milk or veggies. Anyway, I think you get the picture.

When Jane’s Ex, finally moved out, Jane and I had many discussions. We talked about what we wanted out of relationship, what we wanted out of a family, and what we wanted out of life. We seemed to have a lot in common, we seemed to have many shared values. As Jane was in the house now with her three young girls, she told me how it was her opportunity to start fresh. She admitted how unhealthy the past had been. She started with small changes, which seemed huge to the girls; drinking milk with dinner, one meal for everyone, pick-up your stuff in family spaces, etc. The girls would complain, complain to her and complain to her ex, which caused her a lot of grief.

The competition was still on, but now more than ever. While Jane was trying to find her bearings in the new world of accountability, her ex was becoming the epitomy of the “Disney Dad”. Lavish gifts, expensive trips, and absolutely no boundaries. At first she was strong and resolute. Although it was difficult I felt like she was supporting us and our shared sense of right. She would call me at night and tell me about that evening battles, the disrespect from them and their hurtful actions and words. I hurt with her, as I couldn’t stand the thought of anyone hurting the person I loved so much.

Eventually I was introduced to the kids and started showing up more. Although we had a lot of fun, played games and did stuff together, it didn’t take long for the girls to start blaming me for the new change in mom. I saw how they treated her (and me). When she was giving them stuff or allowing them to get away with stuff they were happy, but as soon as the giving stopped they had no use for her. It killed me.

Not wanted to bore you too much, fast forward a while. Lots of ups and downs. But a pattern was emerging, although I seemed to be the only one to recognize it. Jane would easily slip back into old habbits. Things we agreed to would go by the wayside, promises broken, support wained; all to support the pleasures of the girls. Jane and I would fight, I would try to describe my hurt but she would be so defensive as to justify why giving into the girls despite our agreements. I tried to describe how I felt so much in second place and how all I yearned for was to be her priority and her mine, and in that we would become the foundation of our new blended family. At some point, Jane would put down her defenses, and see the love I wanted to share with her. She would affirm her love for me and we would mediate to a new set of shared values, just a little less than the previous.

This happened in repetitive cycles. One would guess months, but no, it was every three weeks. One week good, one week where the wheels started to fall off, and one week of me being on the outside of her family looking in. Then back to week one. I got so tired of it, I decided that I couldn’t take it anymore. I told her that this was terrible unhealthy for me, for her, for all of us. I told her we either go to counseling or we are done. So we started going. At first things started to get a little better. We were more like a couple. At home there was more balance, less stress and less fighting. Everyone seemed to know what was expected of each other. The girls were resentful (of both of us), but at least their outward attitude was less hurtful. We did family things together and had fun, but it was with moderation and balance. Accountability was beginning to take hold, and there was peace in the house.

But not for long. The girls started to rebel and use their dad’s as a comparison. The competition was back on, and everything we outlined went by the wayside. We went back to the three week cycles. Each time renegotiating from the last position. Each time moving farther away from our original shared values. Over a several year period, we had hundreds of counseling sessions. When ever the counselor broached why Jane felt compelled to please the girls to such an extent, Jane had angry outbursts. Whenever there was talk about balance and partnership, there was defensiveness. So the counselor started to take a different approach. She started to ask me to change; “why do you care what happens?”, “why do you think it is any of your business what Jane does with her girls?” I felt like since the relationship counselor couldn’t get us to be a couple of equals who shared everything, she then was trying the approach of getting us to be two individuals co-habitating and getting together when it was convenient. Well I wasn’t up for that too much, but I stuck with counseling anyway.

More and more the house became Jane’s house. Her house, her rules, her kids, her way. I admittedly became resentful of feeling like I was in second place, like I was always on the outside. She would tell me that it was my choice to be on the outside, but the only way to be inside was to do it her way. To watch her kids treat her like crap when they weren’t getting their way. To watch her try and try to compete, to please them.

Eventually, going to counseling was dreaded. I would say to the counselor that the reason why Jane hated to go to counseling is that “dictators don’t like mediators, because they have everything too loose.”

Over the years, Jane would tell me “if you would only spend more time here, I might feel more commitment from you and thus would be more committed to us”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only give up your apartment…”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only be done with the divorce proceedings…” (it was a multi-year event), and it ended. But each time, it didn’t change. It would change for a short time, but then it went back to the hurtful ways.

Ok, I hope you haven’t fallen asleep yet.

Finally it came down to “if we were married…”. And I struggled with this one. But I searched my soul and despite everything, I still felt like she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So I started planning, and I devised a very elaborate engagement, one fitting of the princess she was. Towards the end of my secretive planning, a new issue arose. Her oldest child, whom we had dealt with stealing from the kitchen change drawer multiple times in the past (dealing with it the way Jane wanted to), finally riffled through our bedroom and stole a significant amount of money from my bedside table. I let Jane know, but all Jane could do was blame the missing money on me, calling me irresponsible and unleashing her anger on me cutting me to the core.

We separated for a while, but then Jane reached out in a very loving and uncharacteristic way. She apologized, she apologized for not believing in me, not trusting me. She apologized for treating me so hatefully. But the most meaningful thing is she admitted that she had not let me into her life as a partner, that she had put the girls first, that she did not share and allow herself to be vulnerable. This was the most beautiful note, and one that I cherish. Although I had called off the engagement plans, I worked feverishly to reinstate them. I felt with all my being that she was my soulmate. The engagement was awesome.

For the first time, we went several months being in sync. It was give and take. It was a blend of both of us and we were good. Neither one of us got everything we wanted, but that was the beauty of it, neither one of us lost everything either. I thought we had found our partnership because we were just that good together. But now I know that it was because he hadn’t stumbled into the hard stuff yet. It was a lazy summer, but just before school started we were faced with our first big decisions. I lost the first one, I lost the second one, and now my radar was up. I shared my disappointment that the unilateral decisions were back. She made it clear that she didn’t agree with my positions and that she was the one that needed to make the decision. Things escalated to the point where she was telling her kids “forget what he told you, I am telling you that it is ok”.

I was hurt. I decided to go into work for the evening. She decided to give the ring back. I decided to move out. Giving back the ring hurt me deep. I couldn’t stand being hated by everyone in the house.
We had been engaged for two months, but upon moving out, I was gone for two months. We occasionally tried to get together when the girls weren’t around. We stopped going to counseling all together because I was tired of hearing how we should be together living separate lives and Jane was tired of being questioned at all. While I was gone, things in the house became more and more like the way it was years ago. It was a free-for-all. All pleasure. Occassionally Jane would confide in me the hurtful things the girls would do, the disrespect, the callousness, the lack of appreciation, the taking for granted. I stuggled to not blow up, because as those girls sit there getting everything they want and expecting more, as they complained and showed hatefulness, they had no idea how lucky they were to have what I wanted so desperately. They had what seemed to be so out of reach for me, no matter what I sacrificed. For the first time I admitted to myself how much resentment I had for those kids. I felt ashamed of being so jealous, but at the same time I couldn’t help myself. They were Jane’s number one and no matter how much of myself I was willing to give and no matter how hateful they were towards her, I was never going to get what they got.

After two months, Jane and I tried to give it a go again. She said she realized how putting the girls before me was unfair. She admitted that she was desperate for affirmation and the easiest way to get what she desired was to give into the girls wants. She realized that the affirmation only lasted as long as she was being a friend and not a parent. She admitted that she has been anything but consistent and that she has put little value on rules and lessons. And she acknowledged how hurtful all of that must have been to me.

And although those were all wonderful things to say, things didn’t seem quite right. Within a month, things were worse than ever. This time she exclaimed what I had felt all along “this is my house and these are my kids, and I decide what happens, not you. I am in charge.” These words cut the largest part of my heart out. I became numb. I stopped calling it our house, it is now her house. I stopped calling it home. I stopped calling us a family. I feel so lost.

She now flagrantly focuses on the girls, and my only choice is to be around or not. We are not a couple, we don’t have a partnership, we are room-mates in her house. She has affirmed multiple times that she wants to be a couple, but it has to be on our terms which means that her girls are off limits. The rules and guidelines that we agreed to and built so long ago are all but non-existent. Every day we become more distant. Her with her kids and me alone.

I should also mention when it comes to my daughter, Jane and I do share the same values. I find that the approaches she refuses to use with her own daughters, she is quite comfortable with when it comes to mine. The difference is, I don’t have an issue with her actions towards my daughter because I think they are reasonable and appropriate. When looking at other peoples parenting and the results through their children, once again, Jane shares the values we once agreed upon. It is only when it hits close to home that she believes those values are needless and over-bearing.

Oh and I forgot to mention that way back, about 8 months into our relationship, despite all the sentiments of deep love and everlasting commitment, Jane had an affair on me. I found out. I found out about all the lies and sneakiness. And she denied it, and denied it. But when she could not hide it anymore, she told me a partial truth, and then after more probing, another partial truth, until I finally gave up on probing. She told me that she was under stress because her and I were disagreeing on boundaries and how partners should treat and value each other. She told me that she was looking for an escape. She had also been exercising and she liked the feeling of being attractive and wanted. She told me she knew it was wrong, but she couldn’t seem to stop it. It hurt me beyond words. But this is another issue that never gets resolved, because every time I tried to get through some healing some other crisis would suddenly occur, and it was never the right time. And on the few occasions that I got the courage to bring it up, it was met with disdain for me for bringing it up. And ever since, when we fall into trouble and she starts acting secretive and like a single person, my fears and my radar go up. Do I think she is cheating, no (at least I hope not), but my emotions get the best of me. And would I bet my life that she has only cheated on me once, again I pray so, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. So not only am I faced with feeling like I am in second place, I secretly fear that I may be in third. I am a mess.

If I could resolve the hurt of the infidelity in my heart, I think we could put that behind us. But the hurt of being second, to not have a home, to constantly feel unimportant… I can’t get that behind me because it happens every day.

So this is way longer than I ever expected, but at the same time there are so many details missing.

If you have any advise, please don’t hold back.

Best,
John




John,

If you think about it, the above bolded could have been written by your ex-wife or your GF's ex-husband. They too have experienced betrayal by way of adultery.

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John,

I'm not even going to talk about the adultery issue. So please read on.

You are already in a relationship in which your intended wife completely disrespects your needs.

She disrespects your desires.

She undermines your authority.

She makes you second to others in a home which should feel as though it is your own.

All of these are your own statements.


Despite your many and repeated attempts to correct these problems, they have not changed - not only that, they have escalated.

You have even attempted counseling.

So, where in this, do you find YOUR best interests?

Your ability to feel loved?

You do deserve that, John.

While it is noble to try to stick with someone, it is also correct and honorable to leave when the person is abusive or disrespectful to you, and I believe this woman is very disrespectful to you.

Before you go off choosing another woman, ask yourself why you chose her.

And examine yourself - because you brought the problems from your first marriage right along with you into this relationship. And you will carry them along with you into your next relationship as well.

Unless you figure out what role YOU are playing in this.

Take a very hard look at your first marriage, and answer yourself honestly, about what YOU DID WRONG there.

Knowing about the marriage builders concepts, what should you have done?

Is there any hope that you might walk away from this really bad relationship you are in right now, and do things right elsewhere?

Because frankly, this thing your in,

was a mess from day one.

SB

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Like Schoolbus, I am also not focusing on the affair aspect of this relationship. I am only looking at the misery you are dealing with, and I have a very simple question - "why?".

Why do you feel a need to be with someone to whom you have not made a lifelong commitment, but whom you are so desperately hoping to change into what you want her to be?

Why do you not see how wrong you two are for each other?

Why are you arguing with all the replies to you (and wow, I also have never seen a response from Dr. Harley before!), instead of listening and perhaps considering the possibility that when 10 people tell you "A" and you are thinking "B", that perhaps, just perhaps, the answer may in fact be "A"?

I dunno, you do sound like you came here for validation rather than for advice. I can certainly validate that your situation sounds miserable and sad - and if you do want advice, it is what I said earlier - end the miserable relationship and find a woman with whom you can build a healthy and loving relationship.

AGG


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"And examine yourself - because you brought the problems from your first marriage right along with you into this relationship. And you will carry them along with you into your next relationship as well.
Unless you figure out what role YOU are playing in this.
Take a very hard look at your first marriage, and answer yourself honestly, about what YOU DID WRONG there.
Knowing about the marriage builders concepts, what should you have done?"

I think the above suggestions are very relevent 'John'.

You seem to believe ALL the responsibility for the failure of your marriage was your wife's alone. Basically, it sounds as if your marriage got stale... as all marriages tend to do eventually... so you sought excitement elsewhere.

Then you found out about the MB concepts and 'realized' how your 'dead' marriage was ALL your wife's fault because she failed to meet your EN's...

What is missing from your account IMHO is how you were also responsible for your marriage. Do you know what your wife's most important EN's were? Do you know if she felt you were meeting her most important EN's adequately? Did she allow an OM to meet the needs you didn't?

The odds that your marriage could have improved if you had applied MB principles to it were much higher than the odds that a marriage spawned by adultery (an affairage) will succeed. In fact, the odds of successfully reconciling with your BW are even a lot higher than turning an adulterous relationship into a healthy/happy marriage!

WHY are you so determined to work on this doomed adulterous relationship anyway?

Are you aware of the addictive nature of adultery? Do you feel as if you HAVE TO have the OW in your life? Just how much humiliation are you willing to put up with just to try to keep the relationship with this adulterous OW going?

Just like any addiction you will have a tough time giving her up. You will actually go through a withdrawal phase complete with craving and caving. But if you can manage to avoid all contact with the OW for at least 3 weeks, the worst part of the withdrawal can be overcome. Then after 6 months of continued no contact with the OW, you will start to see her through de-fogged eyes and most likely will wonder what you ever saw in her!

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Quote:

The person that said "Dr. Harley says no secrets, blah blah." I was giving her an engagement ring dimwit, I don't think it is that unusual to plan it as a surprise.



This was my mistake. The original post didn't use the word proposal, and I misunderstood the engagement planning to refer to some formal, public ceremony. (Some cultures do this where gifts are exchanged and in-laws on both sides meet; a marriage ceremony happens months later.) I am sorry I created confusion on this.

I doubt Dr. Harley is opposed to romantic proposals.

- WG


BH 40, Married: 2002, Discovered affairs: Fall 2005, Divorced: Spring 2008

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Unfortunately, the odds are that he wont be back. Very few WSs that come on here and are confronted with the truth....man up and stay and find out how they can change their life around.

I might be wrong. But history shows most dont.


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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Oneoftwo,

I read your post and can see so much of my situation in yours.

How? Well, my WW left me, divorced me as quickly as possible, and is now shacked up with another man. Was he an affair partner? No. They met after, or so I think.

I could see him in your words. I'm sure my ex has told her I was a horrible husband. I'm sure he desires to have a say in the kid's lives.

Well, here's the reality. He won't and neither will you. Why? Because I'm a father that is very much involved, loved by his kids, and present in their lives.

My ex wants to move away and start a new life with this man in another state. Guess what? I'm not letting it happen without contesting it. Why? I could care less about her and her life with this guy, but I want to preserve my relationship with my kids.

So, I am posting here about myself in the hopes you may understand.

Forget all the affair stuff others have mentioned. Let's assume "Ok, so the divorces were underway and it simply wasn't official." I'm guessing, as my ex wife stated while I was deployed and she was cheating, "I had already decided the marriage was over."

So let's assume there if value to that way of thinking. Let me give you that and not judge you or call you an adulterer or use words of that type. Let's concede your point that your marriage and her marriage were over for all intents and purposes.

You have a ton of things here stacked against you despite that stuff. You're in a mixed family situation. You will NEVER be first over the kids. Your views on how they should be treated/raised/disciplined are quite frankly, none of your business at all. You have a child with this woman. That's who you need to focus on. What happens and how it's handled with your current W's kids are the business of your W and her ex. The sooner you accept this, the sooner this will stop being an issue.

The kids will never, ever, accept you or your role in any way shape or form. You're not their parent nor will they every see you that way, ever. Right or wrong, they will blame you for how your W behaves or their difficulties.

My father married his mistress (and cheated on her too, years later). Guess what? We, his three childen, never ever accepted her. She could have started floating in air, performing miracles and healing lepers and we would still see her as a demon spawn that contributed to the breakup of my parent's marriage. That will NEVER change. Judgement on you? No. But a perspective on how their girls likely see things, spoken or not.

The next thing you need to see, and I'll I'm asking you is to please step back and listen and ingest what you're hearing, is that you're not in love with the reality of your W so much as the POTENTIAL of your W. You're in love with who you think she is or can be versus who she really is.

Brother, you're suffering from White Night syndrome. I had it as well. You two rushed into each other's arms after bad marriages, if what you say is true. Rather than take a break from dating/relationships to find yourself, heal, and learn from your mistakes, you rushed into each other's arms.

Judgement? No. It's what you did.

Hormones and fantasy about what "you could have" guided you and they still feed you and you're still hoping that things will change.

They won't.

Your W cheated on you. She cheated on her previous husband. Justified or not, there is a pattern here.

Finally, I'm assuming you're Catholic, from what you posted. Reconciliation doesn't undo what has been done. Please stop hiding behind the sacraments. Before reconciliation, there was the sacrament of marriage. You hung in there for as long as you could, but did your ex cheat on you? Outside of that, then you should still be hanging in there and working with your ex to fix that marriage and live up to the promise you made before God that "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse" you would be with her till you died.

Is that a judgement? Perhaps. I'll openly say so.

You're married to the Titanic. You want us to give you opinions on how to arrange the furniture when we're telling you you need to find a lifeboat. You don't want to hear us and insist that the ship isn't sinking and that your really need to get this furniture in the right order.

We're screaming to you to get on a lifeboat. You're angry with us for saying to you that the ship is sinking.

You need to end this relationship, focus on your daughter, and find out why you have White Night syndrome and see how you can stop that.

Accept that you'll never be a father or have a say in your W's kids.

You have even less of a say if you're not married.

The worst lies ahead for you with the fact that they will be teens soon.

Save your daughter. Your W is a mess and you cannot fix her and no amount of talking or pleading will change her. SHE needs to want that change.

I really hope you don't run off after getting these posts. I didn't want to listen either when I first started posting.

The people here speak from experience and because we've seen your exact same story a million times. A relationship develops immediately after a marriage ends whether out of an affair or not and neither person fixes the things which led to the demise of their first marriage.

You're like an amputee trying to run a marathon before the wounds have healed.

It can be done eventually, but you need to let your stump heal and go through the training before you can do it.

So end this relationship and focus on your DD5. No one is telling you it is easy and doesn't hurt.

Come back in a year or two and reread your posts and the advice you're getting and you will see things much more clearly. You're enveloped in a very deep fog of your own. All of us have had that fog too.

What we're saying to you is from experience and knowledge learned over much much pain and suffering.

I do wish you the best of luck.


D-Day 28 Feb 06
Plan D (Not by choice) - 24 March 06

DD6
DS4(Twin1)
DS4(Twin2)

She moved away with the kids April 08. I contested it and got a lot more time with my kids. She's unhappy that I want to stay involved in their lives and don't settle for being an "every other weekend" dad.

Never going to happen.

Ongoing personal recovery through the help of friends, family, and DC United Soccer!
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great post Pompbd3!

I hope he reads it.

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John, some of your writing is less than clear. YOU know to whom you’re referring in any number of places but the pronouns sometimes confuse, rather than explain the issue. In some places, I think you've been referring to your first marriage but the text is being interpreted as speaking about your current marriage. From what I’ve tried to interpret, I believe you are now divorced from your first wife and have been for several years, and you are now in a relationship that may have begun under less than advantageous conditions. It's not clear from your words when the boundaries were overstepped in your separate marriages. In one place I thought I saw a reference to bcoming "romantically involved" AFTER your and Jane's separate marriages had ended, but I'm not sure. You might clear that up if you're still around.

However poorly your marriage began, Dr. Harley will help you fight to keep your marriage together. Please ignore all advice on this thread that is contrary to Dr. Harley's professional advice.

Here are Dr. Harley's words from above:

Quote:

…I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed…




In short, John, Dr. Harley doesn't see much hope for marriages such as yours, BUT he won't stop trying to keep them together either. Keep that idea firmly fixed in the forefront of your mind, John.

Now...Dr. Harley has put his finger on a big, big problem in your marriage (the one you came here for help and advice), and that is the concept of the "blended family." There are things about such families that must be clearly understood and I think Dr. Harley's professional counselors (available through his telephone counseling service) can help you with this concept. Please call them if you can and set up a session as soon as you can.

John, please also understand you have not recovered from Jane's infidelity. You need help getting over that also. The sheer magnitude of your several problems is truly daunting, the stress and emotional impact of everything happening at once is disheartening. John, I really understand why you've been venting in this thread, but...please don't call folks names, okay? It just isn't going to do anything for you and it encourages people who simply do NOT like Dr. Harley posting sympathetically to you at all to be even more vitriolic. If you'll take a more moderate tone and just learn to disregard the advice that is contrary to what Dr. Harley says, you can get a long way down the road to recovery.

Hang in there, John. And come back to talk to us, okay?

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Longhorn,

John is not married to Jane. Never was. They just shack up together. They were 'engaged' for a time. John feels second to Janes kids. Wants to be first.

His GF did not have an affair. They were not married. It is not even clear if they were 'engaged' at the time. It was 8 months into their "relationship".

"For anonymity reasons I will call myself John and I will call my significant other Jane."


Quote:

Please ignore all advice on this thread that is contrary to Dr. Harley's professional advice.




Perhaps (for John's benefit) you could be more specific. He is new to the boards afterall.


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Quote:

Please ignore all advice on this thread that is contrary to Dr. Harley's professional advice.




I think John is getting pretty consistent advice on this thread, probably more so than I have seen on most any other thread.

Quote:

Dr. Harley has put his finger on a big, big problem in your marriage




I don't think John is married.

Quote:

John, please also understand you have not recovered from Jane's infidelity.




I dunno, I don't think that John loses any sleep over Jane's "infidelity" . The big elephant in the room is that John and Jane have totally different values, parenting styles, goals, priorities, etc. I don't see any compatibility between them, and the fact that John came here complaining how badly Jane treats them confirms for me that the relationships is flawed.

Since they are only dating, I keep saying the same thing I say to others in that situation - why not go out and find a better match. Oh, BTW, I don't think that John and Jane share a child, as some have inferred.

AGG


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Quote:

His GF did not have an affair. They were not married. It is not even clear if they were 'engaged' at the time. It was 8 months into their "relationship".




jane did cheat on john


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Quote:

jane did cheat on john




Right. But he wasn't married to Jane. Besides, he did say that he can get past the affair (well, I sure hope so, since that is what he and Jane had to begin with), but that the real issue for him is this:

Quote:

But the hurt of being second, to not have a home, to constantly feel unimportant… I can’t get that behind me because it happens every day.


.

Why he wants to stay with someone who treats him like this is an answer we will probably never get.

AGG


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yeah i know that they weren't married but ba stated that jane didn't have an affair on john but she did. i was just putting in my un-needed two cents...lol

i'm sure he's lurking somewhere but his ego won't let him come back and get the real help he needs. which is quite sad...and you know it's bad when Dr. Harley feels the need to try to reach out to him on the boards.

oh well...can't save everyone i guess


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Allurin,

I didn't say that GF did not cheat...I said GF did not have an AFFAIR.

To me, an AFFAIR is a shortening of Extra Marital Affair. They were not married.


ba109
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I'd like to see the original poster return, and I don't want to TJ, but here goes...

Quote:

oh well...can't save everyone i guess



I don't think many people like 1of2 (aka 'John') are going to get saved around here.

The analogy that comes to mind is someone showing up in an emergency room after an automobile accident and getting peppered with questions instead of being treated. Questions like "Why weren't you wearing a seatbelt? Don't you know they save lives? It is the law. Can't you see what a bad example you set for your children when they don't see you wearing one?" Meanwhile, the victim bleeds to death.

Of course affairs and affair marriages are bad (for everyone, the BS, 'John', the kids). No debate there. But the original poster asked for help and got pummeled here -- and he didn't hurt any of us -- his offense is against another. I don't see what point it served. Can't we be a little kinder?

- WG


BH 40, Married: 2002, Discovered affairs: Fall 2005, Divorced: Spring 2008

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oy vey...this is why i sit back and never say much.


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Ya know what analogy comes to mind for me?

John says "Doc, it hurts when I do this."
Doc says "John, don't do that."

John doesn't want to hear "Don't do that".


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exactly ba!!!


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Quote:

John doesn't want to hear "Don't do that".



I think 'John' might not want to hear "I shouldn't have done that 5 years ago". At least not more than once or twice.

- WG


BH 40, Married: 2002, Discovered affairs: Fall 2005, Divorced: Spring 2008

Advocate grace daily
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