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Originally Posted By: jrnyman

Based on your reasoning, should I also tell my 8 year old about the fact that mom filed for divorce? And explain what that means? Personally I think not, because I imagine it would cause a lot of anxiety in him, wondering what day dad will move out of the house forever.


jrnyman, your wife has not filed for divorce. She is talking smack. Go by her ACTIONS, not her words. Most WS's threaten to "file for divorce" when the BS exposes the affair. It is a diversion tactic to scare you away from interfering with her affair.

Like SC said, the OM has probably lied to his wife about you and spun you as some "jealous nutjob who thinks everyone is chasing his wife." This is why it is so important to snoop and get the goods. Once you get the goods you can blow the affair up.

I would not tell him about her idle threat to divorce. Just tell him mom is having an affair and who it is with. Tell him WHO the OM is so she can't introduce your son to him. Many WS's try to introduce the kids to the OP in an attempt to normalize the affair. Tell him you are doing your best to save the marriage and that you will always be there for him.

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wondering what day dad will move out of the house forever.


Where are you going?? If this goes to divorce, which I doubt, SHE is the one who more likely will have to move since she is having the affair. She needs to be told VERY CLEARLY that you will not be cooperating in any divorce action, will countersue for adultery and WILL NOT BE MOVING.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: jrnyman

"In any case, I do not recommend telling kids about an affair. I think the risk to their relationship with mom is too great. In many cases, it starts a cycle of attacking one another verbally, and leaves the kids wondering what to think."


No one is telling you to "attack" her but to tell your child the truth. Children can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. If you don't tell him the truth, your wife will tell him lies............about YOU. It is EVIL to whitewash bad behavior of parents to kids. It is lies and adultery that harm kids, not the truth.

Keep in mind, Dr. Harley is a licensed clinical psychologist with 35+ years of experience. He is much more educated and experienced than a therapist. As someone who was LIED TO as a child, I can tell you that it only screws kids up when no one will validate their instincts about the problems in their family. Kids need the truth and they need good solid moral guidance. Not telling them the truth just makes them more insecure and full of anxiety because they don't know is really going on so they are not prepared for the fall out.

Secondly, kids usually eventually find out and when they do, they are ill prepared. We have one boy here who was told by the OP's child at school "hey, we are going to be brothers!" crazy

Sugarcane, yes, countersuing for adultery is an excellent tactic. We have members who did this and the OP was called into court to give testimony under oath about the affair. It sure takes all the fun out of adultery!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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So I suppose the short answer to your question "Coasting along...What to do now?" is to stop coasting along. Start fighting a properly planned military operation.


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Sorry everyone, let me take some time to explain the details of my wife's A.

In early July 2009 I wrote an email to my wife telling her I wasn't happy who I had become and that I wanted to be a better husband to her, and a better father. Before you ask, nothing prompted this change from the outside (i.e. her), it came from within me.

The next morning, I asked her if she got the email and she said yes but started tearing up. She said it was the most amazing thing I had ever said to her, but that it was too late. Later that night she wrote me a letter and I read it, and it basically said all the boilerplate stuff waywards say. She's not happy, she never has been, she doesn't love me, she wants freedom, she wants to start a new life, etc. That night, I stayed at my mother-in-law's house, and stayed for 2 weeks. Yes I know, it sounds weird. But her mother is a wonderful person and we get along great (very close-knit family) and I was hurting beyond imagination.

I went and talked to two pastors who asked me the same question - is there anyone else involved, I responded with an emphatic NO each time. But, their questions got me thinking. I went to the house one night to make dinner and when she stepped outside I got on her computer and saw a google search for a name of a guy who was a friend of mine. It didn't set off any red alarms but I thought it was odd. I got her cell phone and saw his number in there multiple times. Then I heard a voicemail from him, it was not sexual but there was no reason for him to be talking to my wife.

The OM is/WAS a friend of mine who I had met through my son's Cub Scout den. I know the affair started in early/mid June, I believe they met at our community's swimming pool as he would take his kid there and so would my wife. The OMW agreed with the timeframe.

I installed spy software on her computer and began capturing passwords and Facebook and email conversations. About a week later I confronted her. I did not yell, shout, or threaten her. I simply told her I knew she was having an affair, and I knew who it was. Stupidly, I never asked her to stop nor did I ask her what she intended to do. I figured she would stop now that she was discovered.

About a week later, she called me at my mother-in-law's house and said to come home right away. She was laying on the couch talking suicidal thoughts. We got her checked into a Christian counseling center where she stayed for 5 days. I am certain she hit bottom because of extreme guilt and shame and conflicting thoughts in her mind. I figured she would come back "fixed", and the A would end and we would rebuild.

Unfortunately, nothing of the sort happened. She came back "cured" of her suicidal thoughts, but the A continued (I could track via her cell phone and computer).

I confronted her a second time, this time I was more forceful, called her a liar, called her pathetic, and asked if this is the person she wants to be, is this the mother she wants to be?

Each time I confronted, she stopped communicating with OM for a few days but it would start again. This time, I exposed to everyone. Including the OMW. I had written her a letter and included proof (phone records, emails) and dropped it in her hand at her house.

But the A continued. I confronted my wife a third time, and still it continued. This time I went to OMW house and talked to her for an hour. She did not know the A was still going on, she thought it had ended a month earlier when I had dropped off the letter. She was devastated and angry. This time I am certain she gave OM an ultimatum.

It is at this time (about 3 weeks ago) that I "believe" the A ended. I see no suspicious activity as I had before (believe me, I watch for it). But as you and others have said, they have probably gone more underground.

We are Christians as is her entire family. Her family has put tremendous pressure on her via phone calls, in-person chats, letters. My wife has isolated herself because she doesn't want to hear from anyone that might sway her mind. It's unbelievable to my that my wife, who is the one that brought me to the church, has decided to ignore her faith and continue living in sin. I believe she knows better, but she reads these ridiculous secular books that basically say "do whatever makes you happy" and "your happiness comes first" - she is using this type of drivel to justify her actions. She even twists the word of God to justify her actions.

So, there's the long story - and that is where we are today.

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That is a painful story, jm. I'm sorry. Thank you for all the information. I think I can see clearly what has happened lately.

You have been using the term "suspicious activity" to mean phone calls and emails. That is an odd term to use. These are not "suspicious activities", they are hard evidence of the affair, and there is a reason why you are seeing no more of them.

You gave OMW proof of their emails and your wife's phone records. OM told your wife after his wife confronted him. Your wife knew immediately how you were getting your info and she disconnected you from access. She got a new phone with a password so that you cannot spy any more (come on, jm, why else did you think she had done this?) and she stopped using the home PC. It is easy to conduct an affair without a home PC - my H did it for 3 years when we did not even have have a PC. He sent emails and made phone calls from work and left the mobile phone there so that I could not see text messages.

If your wife does not have a job outside the home then either she does not send any more emails or, more likely, she uses her phone or goes to cafes, the public library or the Apple shop. She uses her new phone to call and text, even if not for emails.

If the affair continued more than once before, despite your putting proof in the hands of OMW, then it is continuing now. Her anger, and her having issued an ultimatum, means nothing to OM if he thinks he can hide his affair - don't you see that? Don't you see from my account of what my H did? At home, he will be telling his wife that the affair is OVER, that he does not want to leave - never wanted to leave - loves her and his kids and is SO sorry. He might have stopped eating properly and slept badly when his wife told him she wanted him out, as my H did until I changed my mind. Then, once his wife is back on board, OM will have poured love all over her and made it seem as if he had learned from his fright. A few days later your wife will have called him and said "I can't go on without you. Please don't abandon me. I won't ask you to leave, just please see me again". He will have talked to her, and eventually will see her again. If he is not planning to leave his wife then he is a cake-eater, and this is what they do.

I don't think your wife hit bottom because of the shame and conflicting thoughts in her mind when she had her breakdown. I think she entered into the lowest despair because she asked OM to leave with her after you confronted her, and he would not. She saw herself as unloved by him and having nowhere to go, and she could not stand those thoughts.

That is just my opinion, based on what happened in my own marriage and what I have read here about the walk-away wife. Please feel free to reject it.

It seems that wives do not have affairs until they feel that they are in love with OM. They do not often have affairs for sex. Having made the decision that they are in love they follow that through to its logical conclusion. They will say that they do not love the H, because they cannot love both men. The H becomes someone who has not been loved in a long time, or is only loved as a brother. The classic line from a WW is "I love you but I am not in love with you." This is said to justify their walk-away feelings. They tell themselves that it is wrong for anyone to expect them to live in a loveless marriage, and that includes family and pastors. They decide they must leave, even if OM will not leave with them. If OM will not leave they feel wretched but continue with their plans. Perhaps they hope that OM will follow them.

I'll ask you again: what makes you think that this is an EA and not PA? Do you realise that if it is a PA, you might have contracted a sexually transmitted infection? You and OMW need to be tested. You need to know that facts on EA or PA.

My thoughts are probably hard to read, but they are really intended to help you. I think you cannot deal with this until you face up to what you're dealing with.


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Thanks jrnyman. I don't believe it is an accident that you found your way here. [go look at the Marriage Builders LOGO if you want to see what I mean] Your marriage is very recoverable if you follow this plan.

Her affair is on the ropes right now and I think she is in mourning. If you can keep them apart, she will withdraw and as she withdraws, she will draw TO YOU if you continue to be a safe place to land. Don't pay any attention to her talk of divorce. It is almost always just TALK. And even if she does follow through, your marriage is still not over.

The odds are completely on your side. Her affair is doomed.

I will leave you with this powerful verse:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4:13


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

jrnyman, your wife has not filed for divorce. She is talking smack. Go by her ACTIONS, not her words. Most WS's threaten to "file for divorce" when the BS exposes the affair. It is a diversion tactic to scare you away from interfering with her affair.

Ummm, yes I am quite certain I know what a divorce filing looks like. I have it sitting on my desk, with the court filing #, her signature, her attorney's signature, and the judge's name assigned to the case. So she most definitely has filed for divorce! I have since retained my own attorney.

Quote:
Where are you going?? If this goes to divorce, which I doubt, SHE is the one who more likely will have to move since she is having the affair. She needs to be told VERY CLEARLY that you will not be cooperating in any divorce action, will countersue for adultery and WILL NOT BE MOVING.


We live in a no-fault state. The courts do not care the reason for the divorce. In our state, I am told, the primary caretaker of our children has been my wife (she has been a SAHM for 8 years). And as such she will likely remain in the home so as to not disturb the children. That's the way it works in our state. [/quote]

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Originally Posted By: jrnyman
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

jrnyman, your wife has not filed for divorce. She is talking smack. Go by her ACTIONS, not her words. Most WS's threaten to "file for divorce" when the BS exposes the affair. It is a diversion tactic to scare you away from interfering with her affair.

Ummm, yes I am quite certain I know what a divorce filing looks like. I have it sitting on my desk, with the court filing #, her signature, her attorney's signature, and the judge's name assigned to the case. So she most definitely has filed for divorce! I have since retained my own attorney.


sorry, I misunderstood you when you said:
Quote:

I can assure you I am not cooperating with the divorce. I have told her repeatedly I will not discuss any divorce with her. If she files, I will respond accordingly as law dictates. But I will NEVER cooperate.


I will bow out.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Melody, I probably should have clarified what I meant when I said "if she files, I will respond". That is what I said the first time she mentioned divorce, before she had actually filed. And that is what my response was - I will respond as necessary.

Then about 2 weeks ago, she actually filed.

I feel that I have a few things on my side. First, I'm doing the right thing thanks to people offering help such as yourself. Second, time is on my side - this divorce will be a long process (a year or more) and anything can happen in that time. Third, the cost of this divorce, and the effect on her life afterward, once it is realized by my wife, may cause her to rethink her divorce decision.

Does the fact that she actually filed for divorce change any of your opinions or suggestions on what I should do next?

Thanks

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Originally Posted By: jrnyman
Does the fact that she actually filed for divorce change any of your opinions or suggestions on what I should do next?


I think you should get some legal advice, and quickly. You mentioned she's a SAHM. So, guess who's likely going to be paying for her divorce? That's right - YOU.

I also think you need to seriously consider if you want to remain M'd to her. I think too often we men get caught up in the fight and the "need to succeed", only to realise afterwards that our victory was phyrric. Your WW may be handing you an opportunity here to discover what life might be like without an adulteress sharing it.


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Mim-

Thanks for your reply. I've already been advised by my attorney that my wife may file to have me pay her attorney fees. So far, that has not happened - my wife paid her retainer using money she saved and money she used by selling things on Ebay.

Trust me I have already seriously considered whether I want to stay with her or not. Do I want to go through the pain and anguish? What will I end up with in the end? These are questions I asked myself.

And then I look at my children and know my children deserve to have a mother and father in the home, not part-time parents as what would happen if we divorced. And I remember what a wonderful person my wife was (and what a wonderful person she could be once she leaves the fog). And I remember the vows I made to her before God in our wedding. I know that as a Christian husband my job is to love her unconditionally. And finally, I am not the type of person to give up when the going gets tough.

Will she or I ever be the same after this? No of course not. And that is not a bad thing, because if we were the same we would probably eventually end up in the same place.

This is a rollercoaster ride - some days I feel I'm making progress (and she will do little things that tell me she is thinking of me). And some days I feel like I am taking 5 steps backwards.

I realize that through all this, I have become a better person, husband and father. And I realize that through all the work, I still may end up a single dad. That's a tough pill to swallow. But, nothing in life is easy - the best things in life require hard work, dedication and patience. That's what I'm trying my best to do now.

In short, I never want to wake up a single dad and think that I gave up too soon. I want the type of marriage people here talk about all the time; a stronger, more fulfilling, happier marriage after going through all this. And I'm willing to fight for it.

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Originally Posted By: jrnyman


Does the fact that she actually filed for divorce change any of your opinions or suggestions on what I should do next?

Thanks


Thanks for the clarification. No, it doesn't change anything I have said. Most of these never go to divorce.

That being said, most men are under the impression that they will lose their homes and primary custody because the woman has an advantage and because of this they lose everything. Yet, we have many men here who fought the divorce and retained the home and primary custody. All they had to do was find an attorney who was willing to fight for them. When men don't fight, they end up empty handed and put out of their homes.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: jrnyman
In short, I never want to wake up a single dad and think that I gave up too soon. I want the type of marriage people here talk about all the time; a stronger, more fulfilling, happier marriage after going through all this. And I'm willing to fight for it.

Amen
JM, I've been reading your thread with great interest (also Floridapad's); there are some similarities with my situation ("EA story"). I have nothing to offer in the way of advice as I'm just getting familiar with the MB concepts.

I only wanted to weigh in with some encouragement and to thank you for the same. Reading about others going through some of the same types of struggles is helping me keep sane. [I've commented in my thread about how much influence is out there for the WS to "do what makes you happy" and "life is too short for....," books, friends, movies, tv shows. Everything seems to glamorize extramarital activity. It's sad]

Anyway, keep up the battle my friend. I get a good feeling that you are in it for the right reasons (3, to start with) and I wish you the best. I'm finding it's a day to day rollercoaster, sometimes hour to hour. I think consistency is the key; make changes and stay consistent. Habits beget behaviors, behaviors beget character. FWIW to you, keeping that in the back of my mind has helped me to eliminate some pretty severe LB's in the last couple of months; just one small step in an effort to save our M, but I sure feel better about my behavior around my kids (no AO's, DJ's).

I was watching t.v. this evening and a in-trouble lawyer said "my dad used to say, 'If you ever get a chance to do a second show, make sure you don't repeat the first show'."

Optimism


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JM,

You asked if you should send her a letter telling her how you feel and how you want to save and change the marriage for the better. I know that Jennifer Dr. Harley's daughter and a PhD. in her own right, often suggests such a letter.

I think it would be an excellent idea for you to express your feelings to her. Just be careful to not try and educate her.

I would also suggest that she is still in withdrawal, and that she may well be very depressed. Given her suicide episode, I would suggest you encourage her to have a physical and see a mental health specialist. She sounds like she needs your help and your love.

Since you are in plan A, those are good things to give her now.

So communicate your feelings to her via a letter. Tell her of your hopes and your dreams, what prompted you to change your approach to being a husband and father. Your love of your children and her.

I think these things will offer her hope and plant seeds of doubt about divorce being the correct approach to a better life for her.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted By: optimism
I only wanted to weigh in with some encouragement and to thank you for the same. Reading about others going through some of the same types of struggles is helping me keep sane. [I've commented in my thread about how much influence is out there for the WS to "do what makes you happy" and "life is too short for....," books, friends, movies, tv shows. Everything seems to glamorize extramarital activity. It's sad]


I've found that reading other people's stories helps immensely in my own situation as well. We're not alone!

My WS has a knack for finding the types of books and friends who live by the rule "do whatever makes you happy". And I find it sickening...

Quote:
Anyway, keep up the battle my friend. I get a good feeling that you are in it for the right reasons (3, to start with) and I wish you the best. I'm finding it's a day to day rollercoaster, sometimes hour to hour. I think consistency is the key; make changes and stay consistent. Habits beget behaviors, behaviors beget character. FWIW to you, keeping that in the back of my mind has helped me to eliminate some pretty severe LB's in the last couple of months; just one small step in an effort to save our M, but I sure feel better about my behavior around my kids (no AO's, DJ's).


Sounds like we're on the same rollercoaster because I feel those ups and downs daily, and hourly too. I have a good group of friends and family who offer support when I need it (which I will never be able to repay).

Like you, I look at my kids and that helps refocus on what is most important and avoid LB's.

I still do not know where this is headed for me. The divorce is still going forward, but there is still hope. It's not over until the fat lady sings. In the meantime I continue to treat her with respect, be the best husband I can be (filling her EA as much as she will let me), and be the best father I can be. Hopefully, before it's too late she will see staying married and working through the problems will be better than the cut-and-run of a divorce.

Besides, what does it show your children about marriage and commitment, when mom and dad give up and cut and run when things are bad? What a horrible message to send to a child.

Staying optimistic!

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Originally Posted By: Just Learning
I think it would be an excellent idea for you to express your feelings to her. Just be careful to not try and educate her.


I think your suggestion was in response to a question I had about how to handle our anniversary.

In fact, here's what I did. I bought her a bouquet of flowers (not roses - nothing to forward or pushy - just a nice bouquet to let her know I was thinking of her). And I spend 3 hours hand-writing her a letter expressing my feelings. I was very careful not to put any pressure on her in the letter and to not try to educate her on what she is doing. It was just from my heart, talking about why I decided to make the changes I made, how I wanted to be a better husband and father, my hopes, dreams and goals (all of which included her).

I put the flowers and the letter on the dining table and went to bed (I thought it would be awkward to hand it to her personally). She always gets up before me so she would see it first.

Anyway, when I got up there was a note on my desk that said this:

"Thank you for the flowers, they're beautiful. All that you said in your letter I already know because you've told me it before. I can tell you've really changed and I'm happy for you."

When she saw me in the morning she immediately came up to me and thanked me again for the beautiful flowers.

That is all that was said and done on our anniversary day. She was noticeably happier that day, I am certain it was because of what I did.

However, her divorce plans are still moving forward, attorneys are involved, and we have had some pretty heated discussions since then. Mostly involving financial issues related to the divorce.

It's very difficult going through this divorce process, to know the difference between standing up for myself and our children, and being disrespectful to her and ultimately ruining any chance of reconciliation.

We are still cordial toward each other, we do family things together, she does things for me that require consideration and thought, and I to the same for her. So it is quite confusing trying to understand why she thinks our marriage has zero chance when obviously she recognizes my changes and goes out of her way to do thoughtful things for me.

Thanks for your help JL!

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