My wife passed away in may of 2009 from cancer. I am a basket case now because I am 52 yrs old, have 3 adult children, (25-18) and now that my daughter of 25 has a 2 yr old I feel strongly the need to be there for them all. I will get into details soon enough but I want to explain that I am worried about thier emotional health because of what they had to endure especialy the last ten years.
I need to get myself healthy and so I was looking for some information in google to see what was going on with me. My wife had PTSD that she would not recognize or seek treatment for and that denial lead to alcohol abuse many times in her life. I searched for "Psycological effects in a alcoholic relationship" (or something close to that), and that lead me to DR. Harleys post about it. Here is an excerpt from it following the link.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html
________________________________________________________

My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention.

That's what I learned to do after discovering that an alcoholic is so much in love with alcohol, that while in the state of addiction, there is no way for them to consider their spouse's feelings whenever they make decisions, a necessary condition for a great marriage. Alcohol always comes first, even when it is at the spouse's expense.

But even after sobriety is achieved, it's an uphill battle for the couple. The spouses of alcoholics are usually so relieved when treatment is successful that they often think their marital troubles are over. It's true, addiction makes it impossible to resolve marital conflicts. But sobriety itself doesn't solve them -- it simply makes them solvable. Once addiction is overcome, a couple is faced with the legions of other Love Busters that were ignored in the shadow of addiction or were created by addiction.

_________________________________________________________

I knew this made sense and described many truths I held onto for years. I started to visit the forums and realized there was help for me, at least I didn't feel alone anymore.

I realize it will be a long uphill battle for me to get my life back on track. As far as another relationship I am not seeking one and don't feel the need to have anything more than friends. I just want to be OK with myself and be there for the kids. I know this site is dedicated to Marriage recovery and relationships that involve people who are still with us and I respect that. There are a lot of personal issues that I am dealing with internally and I will keep this post relative to my former troubled marriage.

I am racked with guilt and insecurity. Issues that were personal that I never got straighted out are still with me and it will take hard work and time for me to straighten them all out. Maybe I just want to hear from someone that I did the best I could so I can let myself off the hook. Regaurdless I will allways think I should have done something differently and if I did my wife would still be here today. Maybe I just need a safe place to tell my story and I sincerly hope that somehow it will help others by example of both good and bad decisions I/We have made.

I tend to write long explainations but the desire to be crystal clear is the reason. The journey in our marriage had a lot of pitfalls and challanges. The details and prevailing concerns of course drove us to our decisions, good or bad.
I can only hope for good advice if I am transparent and clear and all the info I will present will be aimed at that.
If I am not clear please ask me what you need to know I will respond.

I am posting this and will follow later with questions and the story behind them later on. Thank you for reading this and I welcome any and all comments.
Again this is not just about the grief issue I am facing. The problems in marraige and how I/We faced them are the primary topic I will be addressing

sortingitout, I am so sorry you are here. I went through a similar trauma in my life in 1999. My H of 20 years left me for another woman, my 18 yr old son was killed, and my other child [17 DS] moved in with my H and the OW because I wouldn't be his "friend." I lost my whole family in that year. I went from being a married woman with 2 children to a divorced woman with no children. I was all alone.

But you know what helped me the MOST? It was not nursing my grief and talking about my losses, it was in building up my life again and keeping my focus on a healthy path of recovery. I started dating [way too soon!], working out daily, going out with friends and focusing on my career and friendships. I didn't talk about losses, but focused on my new life. I forced myself to get out of bed every morning and go to work - ALL DAY.

I had been led to believe that I could not HEAL unless I "talked it all out" but I found that my membership in a grief group kept me triggered and full of anxiety. Just one session in a grief support group would cause me so much sadness and grief that I did not want to even get out of bed for 3 days.

I didn't know WHY, but I did know that continually talking about it and being around other SAD people was horrendous to my mental health, not helpful. So I stopped it. I went through the motions of a happy, normal person and surrounded myself with emotionally healthy influences. When my grief became too much, I threw myself into weightlifting and aerobics. My feelings eventually followed my actions. I brought the body and the mind followed.

Little did I know at the time that studies actually show that my method was the fastest path to healing. Studies have shown that victims of trauma actually do much worse when they are in GRIEF counseling because they are constantly triggered by the trauma. They suffer much higher levels of depression and have a harder time adjusting to life again. I read all this LATER in a book titled One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Summers and Salley Satel, MD. It was a huge eye opener for me. Everything they said in there rang true for me.

It also lines up with Dr Harley's philosophy. [Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders] He does not believe in discussing past unpleasant events. He believes in focusing on making the present and future GREAT. I tend to agree with him, because that has been my exact experience.

So that is my suggestion. The problems of the past are gone and can't be resolved. But the present and the future can be great. They can't be great if you are focusing on the past, though. That is my message to you. Leave the past where it belongs, and look forward.

Hello sorting, and welcome to MB.

I hope you will take Melody's advice to heart. Please feel free to tell us your story here so we can get to know you a bit, but even with as much pain that is here we don't just wallow in it and stay there. Folks are always encouraged to do as many positive things as they can, big or small, to rebuild their lives after terrible loss - whether that loss was through death or deliberate abandonment.

Looking forward to reading the rest of your story.
Mulan

Overcoming Resentment



here

All very true, yet if there are unresolved issues surrounding the two-way infidelity, there may be some important lessons gained by revisiting that time, that could go forward into any future relationships.

BRIEFLY revisiting! Then back to the gym, library, or wherever.

Thanx guys you are all awesome and melody that advice is so true. I am sorry to hear of your loss but am glad you are better now. My problem is I used to get up and out the door and onto the next thing all the time. It truly is the way to get over stuff. It is true if i could just act right I would feel right. I just can't seem to get over it and I don't know why. I know whats right and I hate myself for not being better at doing what i need to.
As the last 6 months have past I have slowly started to "get out of my own head" I keep telling my 22 yr old son who is temporally supporting me I am getting better and starting to have hope in the future. Its funny but I really don't see the fog i was in till it leaves me. Like a new thought or attitude comes in and releases me from a negative one. Work and a sense of value in the world would probably help but I have been disabled since 2006.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. It means a lot to me. I will post tommorow a question you all can help me with if you would. I will read up on the links till then
God bless

I'm sorry I just drew a blank today. I realize that living in the past is a waste of time. I had this post all prepared yesterday about my life as a child that maybe could explain how I turned into an enabler. Why I have fallen into extreme poor self image issues and Why I get so locked up in guilt from time to time.
Success in life to me is to be balanced and when I leave this world I want to know I did everything I could to make it a better place than when I came into it. A positive self image and a realistic expectation of myself are the reasons I have allways sought God as the source of strength. I have sucked it up all my life and tried to be the hero so many times. On the outside I have been very successful in many instances. Practical accomplishments have kept me going and I just let painful experiances go and would just chalk it up to being sensitive.
I did not choose wisely in my seriuos relationships/marraiges and for variuos reasons. First one I was to young. Second I was to proud. Both times I rushed in when so many issues needed to be addressed and although I feel I was completly honest, she wasn't able to in both cases.

I Was looking for help in understanding my condition i am being treated for,(Bipolar Disorder or what they used to call Manic-depressive, Extreme highs and lows of mood), which of course can lead to wrong thinking and/or decisions based on wrong thinking. (The emotions are powerful motivators huh?), and came upon these three tests I took last week. They were quizs and if you check them out it wont take long. But if ya don't have time I will summarize the results

http://allpsych.com/tests/diagnostic/anxiety.html I tested high like 9 for anxiety

http://allpsych.com/tests/diagnostic/depression.html 13 for depression

http://allpsych.com/tests/self-help/success.html 13 on success orientation.

All these scores were high. Lol help! Ok, so What does that make me? I think it shows there is some problem with how I am handling my life.

I just need to find some answers and because I tried so hard just to provide for my family and I so wanted my intimacy and trust to grow in both marraiges I am afraid to move foward till I set some boundaries and expectations for myself.

So if you think you want to hear about my life and here my rather long story I would like to start by explaining how I started out as a child. It effects how I percieved myself and also how I treated my spouses emotional and practical needs and also how I understand I responded in my relationships.

In the end its all about the future and avoiding more mistakes. I am just looking for answers that I can stand on to build the future for myself and kids.

This is a great place to open up because of the aynominous nature here and I doubt a counsellor has the time in 30 mins a week to really look at this. Plus I get toungue tied and anxios so easily talking to them ussually ends up with me trying to explain myself so desparetly I just spin in circles and never seem to come to the point or explain the issues. (lol, i bet you guessed that allready..)

Ok let me know.. I will get the saga together and post the beginning of the story tommorow. I have to go do some housework Thx for reading this and seeya laters

I also suffer from bipolar disorder, and though it does affect my life, I know that - when I am consistent with treatment - I can still live well. Are you taking any medications?

yes i am on medication and have been seeing a therapist since 2000. It does help. I was diagnosed with a "mild" case and I know how important it is that severe cases get the help they need. I don't understand exactly where the condition in me stops and where outside influences in my life begin to cause problems but they both can get some blame. I know I need to stay in contact with someone who has their feet on the ground, (therapist). Because when life hands you to much to handle you have to take it one thing at a time.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

My D19 just left for college this fall. Since she left, I've been consumed with what I should have done as a mother, wife, and for her.

But you know what?

I've told this to people for years and years, and it's the truth:

If you do nothing else for your children but make sure they know you love and cherish them, the rest is inconsequential. Love is everything. You could be the most messed-up person on earth, but all they will remember is that you loved and wanted them.

Yes I read a book by Scott Peck called "The road less traveled" back in 1988 whe I was separated from my family and there was a section about emotional security.

He said this and I don't have the exact quote but here is the gist of it.

"I have found that Children who come from familys where they are never given up on or deserted are the most able to endure hardships in life. It is important that a child feel they are loved and that there is no behaviuor or circumstances that could happen that would separate them from there parent/s care. Money, material wealth, social standing or reputation will do very little for a childs self-esteem if they don't feel valued at thier core, loved without condition. It is most important that a child know that the parent will be there for them through anything and will never leave them"

Again I am not sure if the wording is right but it was a great book.

I think many people who have grown up without that kind of parenting must feel lonely. For me I sought God as a father Image and still do. Parenting never stops.

Most definitely! I noticed something about 10 years ago, and I've been keeping score on it ever since. Every time someone who 'makes it big' in whatever field is interviewed, and they ask that age old question - how did you get here - they almost always said something along the lines of:

"My parents supported me in every thing I did. They attended every game, every recital, every graduation, everything. They made me know I was loved. They never told me I couldn't accomplish what I said I wanted to do, even if it was to fly to the moon in a sailboat. I grew up knowing I could accomplish anything, and, if I didn't, they turned it into a lesson on how to succeed the next time."

Funny how they all said the same thing. But it makes so much sense. It's like school. I always thought school was for teaching us how to learn, not what to learn. Because we're lifelong learners - or we should be.

I couldn't agree more

Well I promised a story and a question so here goes. I will try to be as honest as I can but a lot of what I say here will have to do with how I percieved things. I know the main villian in the saga self-image and I admit that both myself and my late wife had fought battles with that demon.

Something to remember about childrens self Image. They will believe they are what they are told they are. A lot like the garden of Eden. After they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they were able to see they were naked. They did not know there was anything wrong with them before. The judgements and critisim of parents and peers are what mold our childrens minds.
Both my wife and I were aware that most of the problems we had encountered were from poor decisions based on bad or poor information. A lot of what was wrong with us was in our heads. Just like the human condition.

A little about my background before we met and then a little about hers.

Me -- I don't take rejection well.. I mean I fall apart if I feel its my fault and I am easily made to think it is. This comes from a Dad who had some real issues with reality and because he had no desire to show his children affection. I became the Son who hadto live with a Dad who didn't seem to care for him. He didn't drink and beat me. In a way it was worse because he didn't even find me important enough to spend time with and all I wanted to do as a kid was be a good son and grow up to be a Man.
Mom and the church taught me that a man cared for his children, as God did. I know that a Real Man loves his children and cares for thier self-esteem. My Dad couldn't. He had issues and if it wasn't for my Mom and God I would have inherited them also. I heard a Pastor say that the definition of hate is really total indifferance. I agree wholeheartedly. I would rather have seen my dads misguided emotions taken out on me and maybe an apology come later than to experiance his constant rejection.
I forgave him when I was 10 yrs old but it was still hard never measuring up to someone I so wanted to make happy. He never had a close friend and distrusted everyone most of his life. I am glad that with his 3rd wife he had some good times before he had a stroke but I never could get close to him even after I grew up because he was unforgiving and cold. Money was his God. He had suffered somehow at the hands of somebody and I can't say who. His Mom and Dad were the salt of the earth and his brother was a totally different human being.
I grew up an insecure kid who did everything to get Dads approval. I studied hard in school and worked after school for my dad but it was never good enough. I didn't have many friends and also didn't stick up for myself, taking abuse from most everyone somehow inside I just thought I deserved it. Everything was my fault and I took on the "hero" complex for both my Mom and my sister, and still I was hoping to reach my Dad because everyone knew he had a problem.

Growing up trying to fix what wasn't my job to fix would be behavior that would haunt me and give me a complex that I still have to be aware of now that I am 52 yrs old.

Now for my late wifes background..

She took rejection worse than me. but she learned how to bury it young in life.
She was born in a rural community to an alcoholic Mom and Dad. Mom was the worse of the two but her and her brother were taken away at age 6 and 4. She being the oldest took on the hero role as they went from one abusive foster home to the next one where the father made a pass at her when she was 12. She was a strikingly beutiful woman as her mother was also but because she was living near her birth parents had to put up with watching her Mom getting drunk and being made fun of. She looked so much like her Mom that people would tell her never to be like her Mom.
She grew up allways being afraid she was not good enough and put on a hard shell to cover up the little girl inside. At 16 in a house she had to live in because her birth father kicked her out of his house a young musician threatened suicide if she wouldn't marry him. She married him and within the next 2 years they became born again Christians just before her husband left her and kidnapped thier child. In the 70's the custody laws were not enforced like today. If the absent father took the child there was no jail term. She and some church members went and got the child but two years later he was kidnapped again from a nursery. She couldn't find him again and she had to deal with this. She allways carried this fear of being like her mother and I am sure she felt that this was her fault too. She had what I can best describe as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, She tried to hide her feelings with a tough exterior but when I met her at age 26 you could see the deeply hurt woman she was.

So here is where we were when we met, both age 26..

Both of us still with issues we hadn't completely worked out and emotions that had control over us. We were both seeking peace in our own ways.

Me =I had been married at a young age and went through some hard times with it but was now getting ready for colledge which I strongly felt I needed for a few reasons. One was I was smart enough to learn because I had a relatively high IQ and probably the most important reason was that I needed the Sheepskin for self-esteem and a future. I felt that because of the type of man I was that i would absolutly need a focused carreer and a strong income before I would have self-respect. I had a Son in another state by my first marraige and it had been two years since I had seen him. I had a job that barely made ends meet so I was just getting along at the time. I had dated girls but made it clear that I was not going to get seriuos untill I could afford to. I was at a crossroads and felt it was now or never if I was gonna go to school. Seriuos romance would be sought after I had a future lined up. I needed the structure of colledge and would seek psycology and sociology classes to help me understand why I still felt so deeply the guilt and responsibility for everything placed in front of me. I wanted to balance out my life and was going to seek being a civil lawyer. My desire to help people understand that the law was designed to protect us even though it wasn't implemented perfectly sometimes was how I wanted to help people. I wanted to fight fear and ignorance. I really had high hopes in this area because I had counseled people who didn't have respect for the rules we all must live by, moral and practical.

My wife= At age 17 on she had involved herself in a christian colledge where she studied the word of God and lived in the promises. She had such an intense relationship with the word that she was even called upon by Pastors to hear her point of view. This is one of the reasons I became so impressed with her but it was not how we started out. She had lived with God as her saving grace untill she was 26 also but she was not attending church when we met and found out later how important that was for her. She also had returned to drinking which at first I didn't see what an effect it had on her
So we met..

When I first met her it was her outgoing personality and ability to communicate that impressed me. She was very attractive and had been asked to model by some agencys but she knew from asking other models that the lifestyle was not what she wanted. She was the most beautiful woman I have ever met and on top of that very interesting to talk to with such an outgoing personality I was totally captivated. I sought time to spend with her to see what she was about and after we shared some personal information it became clear she was a rare person with a high intellect and a very sensitive woman. When she shared the story of her kidnapped Son she cried and you could see the heartbreak in her about that loss.
When I told her I was seeking to be a lawyer to help people change their life she made it clear that God was the answer for people. I did not have the teaching she had and what words she quoted from the bible made so much sense to me. When I said I thought most of the problems people face come from insecurty and fear the quote "Perfect love cast out all fear" rang true from her lips.
Here was this beautiful, intellegent, sensitive woman and I was so attracted to her I couldn't figure it out. It was worth checking into even to just have her as a freind. I felt she was out of my league but I also thought I would never forgive myself if I didn't at least date her long enough to see what happened.
She was one of those people that took control and made things happen. Before I started talking to her she was standing in a hallway with a freind and not saying a word she just looked like a professional social worker. As her friend was having a disscussion with a Landlord she just stood in the background for support. That does not mean she couldn't open her mouth when she had to though. She would apply herself to any situation and give sound argument in the years to follow. Their were very few occasions where she would keep quiet if she really needed to speak up and someone was being wronged. I didn't feel ready to get into a relationship with anybody but I felt that if I wanted one with her, I had to make a choice. She had already said she would not consider marriage with anyone but a christian man. Also that she was not willing to wait too long either. I eventually saw why she wasn't scooped up by another guy yet even though she was engaged 3 times in the last 6 yrs. She was scared somehow deep inside. This is what I thought I saw.
At the time we would go out and have a couple drinks at the bar before a movie and she would want to stay and have another and another when I felt it was time to go. Onenight we were at a bar next to the movie theater and we had brought one of her girlfriends with us. The Bartender was flirting with her and I wanted to go. There were signs that she drank too much and I was getting ready to talk to her about it so this didn't shock me as much as it hurt.. when I asked her to leave with me she turned to me and abruptly said with a scowl,"Go ahead and go, I can get a ride later. I will see you when I get back" I said that it wasn't nessesary but she insisted. I said OK and went home heartbroken.
I was convinced that there were some issues we needed to talk about but maybe it was time to break it off. I waited for about 1/2 hr at home and she came in and sat down like nothing was the matter. I fully wanted to talk to her about what was going on but what I said first was, "maybe we should stop seeing each other". What I expected was "Why? Whats wrong?" but what happened is she got up and left in a huff, not a word.
I tried to see her for the next couple days and when I finnally did she was in bed. She said she was afraid to tell me about her problem with nerves and that she would drink a little more than she should once in a while. It was then she told me about her Mom and how much she never wanted to be like her. She loved her Mom and it was obviously a personal issue that weighed heavy on her heart.
I had seen up to this point a few alcoholics in my life and this woman was not a bleary-eyed totally selfish individual and by her own admission she new she had "nerve" problems. I told her what I still to this day consider the best advice anyone could have given her.
"You need to see a psycologist and get therapy for whatever is causing you this inner nerve problem and maybe they can give you a slight tranquilizer for the times when stress is high untill you find out what you should be trying to handle. You are a sensitive intellegent woman and you can live without all this stress. Don't let the world sit on your shoulders"

This point is where a lot of people say "Oops, I better not get involved with 'that' person", but I didn't have that gene I guess. I said it before , Fools rush in..

That was the point where I should have backed off from the relationship untill the problems were dealt with for her. At least I could have just insisted that we don't drink. I would have been able to be more of a friend if I had not continued to pursue a seriuos relationship.
I can tell you this about what happened to me that night.. After she left me in a huff I chased her. I thought I had done something wrong and cruel. I felt very guilty the next two days and by the time I talked to her I was hooked. I did it to myself There was this absolute fear of desparation that came over me when she left that room.

So here is what I thought was happening, I was with a very sensitive and intellegent woman and I thought for some reason that I would be able to love her enough and for a long enough period of time that she would realize I could be trusted with her heart. The more she started to reject me the more my foolish heart would chase her.
Any counsellor will tell you I was an enabler. I didn't see it that way at first. The story isn' t over yet as a matter of fact that was just setting the stage. Its not all bad news. She and I had some great years when she was in recovery a few years later. I want to share that with you because it showed me the power of Gods love and how it changes lives. I have to take a break for awhile and then I will get to the next stage.
One thing I really want to stress is that we didn't seek counseling like we should have and tried to go it alone. I guess we thought we were different from everyone else and could handle more without help. Its not true, everyone needs help from time to time and certain things need to be dealt with in a relationship before they are able to be truly put to rest. This is why I am writing this out here, to let people know that they truly can have intimacy, truth and love in thier relationships. I will share more in my next post.

Well folk's , I have been trying to find a way to be fair to my late wife and express our story here in a way that maybe could benifet others while baring my soul.
Their really is no way I can tell this story from 26 yrs ago and not miss something important to the whole picture so I will stop the details and just sum it up as fairly as I can.
My late wife and I both were searching for answers when we met and we thought we had found a "formula" to help ourselves as well as someone to count on. We both were not ready to make a commitment and we did not seek counsel as we should have when we met.
Wrong thinking and not giving ourselves time to get our minds right had caused some seriuos issues for our relationship. As time went on and we both wanted to work on things we had come to the realization that putting the past behind us and the ability to forgive and forget was the only way we could survive.
The best times we had were when we trusted God for our future. There were some unrealistic expectations in that trust on both our parts but for 12 years when our children were young it was the belief that we as imperfect people would be OK if we believed we were loved by God.
Although we both have failed in this I can say that if two people can truly appreciate thier marriage and stay honest about what they want it to be they can make it. It can be what they make it and being able to be honest with themselves and thier partner are rules number one and two. If two people have the same values and share thier life in truth they will grow "together". I stress this because life can throw you tons of temptations and curve balls but if you are devoted to making a marraige work and stay honest with each other, you will be able to overcome them "together".

I guess what i wanted to ask for a question was. How long will it take me to get my life back together and am I right in giving myself time? I am reading along with seeking counsel and trying not to look to hard at the past. My personality sometimes wants to go it alone but I am a little afraid to cut myself off from counsel. I have made some dumb decsions in the last ten years that I should just let myself off the hook from but I still have a lot of guilt from them. I just have to remember I am only human and not made of stone.
I could have went to someone and sought help if my pride did not get in the way. In my marriage I was so used to being a hero and trying to absorb negative crap that I stayed alone untill the negativity of some of my wifes actions along with my own deteriorating self image dragged me down to a place where I felt helpless. I blame myself for letting it get that bad. I know I stood as strong as I had the ability too but still... Well the cycle will end as soon as I let it but I need to get my mind on the right track again. And the question is.. Shouldn't I just take my time and take care of myself the best way God will provide while I wait to feel normal again?
I don't know if I ever really felt normal in my life lol but at least I felt I was doing all I could.

To all of you who are working on a relationship get one with truth first, know that God loves you and he is the source for our peace and expectation of our future. Having that security will lead to a balanced life. I miss that security and maybe I just need to accept things for the fears to stop. I thought my wife and I would be able to get it together by now and life was supposed to be so different than this. I can tell you that she didn't plan it this way. OK Guys .. Have a great Thanksgiving. We have much to thank God for.

I'm a big believer in counseling, if for no other reason than to have someone to talk to. Talking things out, you can often find the clarity you're looking for. Plus, they went to college and must have some good knowledge to pass on! At least more than cousin Joe.

As for you, I'd suggest working on a change in attitude, not knowledge. If you read a thread on MB 101 from holdingontoit, you'll see a man who chooses to be negative, to hate himself, to expect nothing from himself and for his children...and achieves it! How sad.

You can work on that. You can choose to see the beautiful colors of the flowers in the weeds and marvel at God's ingenuity, or you can choose to see the weeds growing up in the sidewalk cracks and be bitter at the mess. Such a change is an active choice. Requires work, but CAN be done.

Do that, for your kids.

How right you are about having a positive outlook. I am reminded about the first thanksgiving today and have been talking about it to my kids.
From what I have learned the first thanksgiving came about while there was a real problem with food. There were people starving and not enough food to make it through the winter. The settlers did not have a graciuos bounty the first thanksgiving but when an old farmer brought up that we should be thankful for what God gave them they started the tradition of thanking Him instead of wasting thier time worrying and complaining. I believe in that.

I knew this guy where I grew up who was really a gifted technician. At one time he wss the head of his deptartment in the trade he chose and there were very few people who weren't impressed by his depth of knowledge.
He was also one of the most critical people you could ever meet. This guy could find something wrong with anyone's desicions and performance. He lost his position at his job and started his own side business. Still everyone was a fool to him. When his patient wife tryed to get him to counsel and show mercy for "all of the fools he had to put up with..", he just rejected it. He had a bad temper and knowbody could stand to be around him for very long.


Another aquaitance of mine, of much older age,(I was 25 and he was 64), was married and he was rich in money and property. He was married and hid all his $ from his wife while he made her collect welfare. She was a little older than him and had gotten very sick. I used to carry her to the bathroom and back when it started to get bad and she talked to me about how life was with him. She had given up a career where she was very sucessful to marry him because he promised her the world. She never pryed into his affairs or knew what kind of money he had. One day when a bank statement came she opened it and saw that he had $10,000,(the maximum federal insured amount), in this bank. She started to open the statements from other banks that came to the house and found 10 grand in all of them. 6 months later, when she was to sick to get around, her children came and took her home to take care of her because he wouldn't pay for heathcare for her. I could not bring myself to talk to this guy again after that.

This same aquaintance was who told me about the first guy I mentioned. He said that the first guy was so cruel and critical to his son that his son had fallen into drug abuse and one day just laid down on a train track and committed suicide.

The atitudes and values those two men I just mentioned were very much like what my Dad expressed about life when I was a child. That kid on the railroad track could have been me. I decided as a child that I would value people and relationships higher than temporal wealth, reputation, or the illusion of security power might bring. That didn't mean I wasn't ever subjected to people that didn't have that attitude. Being around people who are out of balance with whats really important is stressful so I need to stay in touch with people who have the same values as I. These people counsel me just by being who they are. The only real grounding and personal force I have though thats constant is God. He is the only source that loves me just the way I am and doesn't need me to perform. He needs nothing from me and still takes the time to care for me. He first gets my heart, then his counsellors he has placed here on the earth get my trust. I hope you can see that about me. I have tryed and according to my freinds laid down my life for my Family. I also have done the best I could to never bring up negative past issues about life. From the time I was 17 and found out I was going to be a father my life has been occupied with providing physical and emotional support for my children. It is what I consider the greatest priveledge anyone can have in life.

I have tried to help severly unbalanced people like i mentioned above to see that the way they treated others was robbing them of what really was important in life. It became obvious to me at 18 that they were afraid. I took pity on them. Then I saw they weren't being helped by pity. They would rather hold onto pride and bitterness as in some selfish posession than to see what they were doing to others. They confused many times kindness with weakness. When circumstances got tough it was a way for them to withdraw into a self-righteous shell instead of seeing that they had a chance to grow. When my Mom went to pastoral counseling for two years my Dad would not. When she finnally filed fo divorce he would not go to court. The judge grabbed him from work and he gave the judge a hard time. he spent a night in jail and still would not admit he had ever done anything wrong. I watched my Mom, who had only been with one man sexually her whole life, my Dad. My Mom taught Sunday school, brought up her brothers and sisters after her moms death when she was 16. My Mom who is one of the sweetest and strongest women I will ever know do the right thing by us and God and deal with someone who was spoiled rotten by his own choice. My Mom made choices andserved people her whole life. She is still around and is the saving grace in my Sister and My life. Thank God for her example of patience and faith.

A Pastor in my church came up to me one day and was complimenting me on the job I was doing. He said, " Wow I wish I could do that stuff". I laughed and thanked him but I said to him that what he did was the more impressive job. He worked with the invisible spirit of God and man. All I did was work with machinery.

We all have to make choices every day. I will choose to thank God for the many blessings I have. Life has been good to me. I think most of peoples problems result from not thanking God for what they allready have. Success in life is 1% apptitude and 99% attitude. I am here to open my eyes again to that. It helps me to hear others with that attitude also and maybe get a kick in the butt now and then. I am continuing to feed my mind with Gods promises and lean on the good advice of friends I find. Thank you all for your comments
I just remembered something I wanted to share with you catperson about the post you had a couple days ago.
You were talking about what successful people said about thier parents.
Their was this guy who home schooled his children and he had said the most important thing he did was to support them in everything. Even if they changed gears midstream he supported them. Its notable that all 5 home schooled children had doctrates and some even taught in colledge before they were 25 years old. Wow! I think its so important kids know that they can make choices for themselves and get positive support.
Well until next time

Sounds to me like you fought back sister. I have so many years yanked myself out of bed and refused to believe any negative thoughts that would cloud my head. I need to get back to that attitude also. This place is encouraging me to get my (&^&( together lol. I guess isolation has taken its toll so I will have to refuse to allow poor thinking and depression to rule my spirit

Thanx

sortingitout,

What meds are you taking currently? In reading your thread, I would be willing to bet that one of two things is going on right now, (1) Either you aren't taking your meds, or (2) the meds need to be adjusted...I pray that you get the help you need, of course for yourself, but also for the sake of your children...

Mrs. W <~~~Daughter of a father that had Bipolar Disorder

Im taking lacmetatol but what are you basing your bet on? Is it because I am talking about past issues? Is it because of the content?
Well this really isn't what the forum is for anyways. To figure out "my" problems. It is to help people mend marriages. I thank you all for listening to me ramble about the past. I enjoy the outlooks in the forum and really believe in the Harleys.

The medication dosage was elevated last year about this time at my request when my psychiatrist, (who I have been seeing since 2004), found out that my wife had developed cancer and that it was terminal.
My late wife reluctantly saw my psychiatrist when the doctor that was seeing her dropped her. My wife needed medication and I had great hopes that the psychiatrist I was seeing would be able to help her get in therapy. My wife was the one in the family who wouldn't seek advice and was running away from reality for a couple years. If she didn't get caught up with drugs I think she would be alive today. The Dr cared for her too. She is a woman Dr. BTW if that makes a differance. I was hoping it would to my wife.

I see a therapist every week, my children every day, all of my freinds think I am doing as well as can be expected considering how close our family was and the length of our marriage (26 yrs). As a matter of fact they still respect me and think I am doing well. My friends from church and the Pastors whom i have been in contact with think I am OK. My Children have known that I was diagnosed with Bi-polar and have been aware of my medication. They feel that I am doing alright.

I have known most of my life that i had mood swings. Trying to operate outside from that fact only makes the circumstances worse. Ussually if my life has no great drama like an abusive father or some other emergency that is threatening like a wife in distress or family losing thier home or other stupid tradgedy that could gave been avoided I function fine. It has allways been when outrageous stress has been present that the mood swings get real painful. I say painful because I like things to go smooth without rollercoaster ups and downs of senseless drama. I have allways tried to think things through before letting stress get the best of me and have counseled the same to others. I assure you that I am seeing the doctor and that am taking responsibility for myself.
If you guys only knew, If it wasn't for my children and Grandaughter I would have fallen into even a worse depression in the last 6 months.

I have a problem with the bi-polar being what everyone points to. Its like everyone thinks that they have no problems that would or could get worse in really bad circumstances should they encounter them. I can tell you that everyone has a breaking point. What is crazy is for people to deny that. I didn't expect that my wife would die. I expected that she was going to hit rock bottom and start to take care of herself I found out this time last year that she had terminal cancer. She died in May, I am sure that anyone with a propensity for depression who had to deal with this would get a little depressed. But things are getting better Unfortunatly though Bi-polar disorder can drive the affected person to believe that they are allright and the world is against them. It can be highly dangerous to not have help for them.
I have found the love and counsel from Family and friends to be the best medicine for me. Thank God I have them.
To be balanced though I have to say that both are nessesary.

You sound remarkably well adjusted to me. I wish more men were as introspective and serious about life and love as you.

Thx Catperson. Flattery will get you everywhere lol

Hi sortingitout...

I am basing my opinion/bet on a few things...Years of reading much of the same type writings from my father...The fact that you are choosing to post on a board called "Surviving An Affair" about topics that thus far aren't germane to the subject matter within...the fact that the stuff you are posting seems to "ramble" quite a bit, without actually making a point - spinning off on tangents that never seem to gel/"wrap up" - I apologize if that sounds incredibly disrespectful, I'm not sure how else to word it...there are a few "phrases" or "ideas" that you've posted that ring a very familiar bell to me - stuff that people that haven't dealt with someone in a Bipolar cycle would recognize - it's kinda like what the Supreme Court said regarding the definition of pornography - I just know it when I see it...and I do not "pigeon hole" people with Bipolar Disorder - I read lurioosi's posts (and others) all the time and I do not detect any of the same things in her (their) posts that I do in yours...

From my understanding of the drug Lamactil, it is not used to treat acute mania, but rather to prolong the time between mood swings/episodes...Isn't there something else you take for manic or hypomanic episodes?

I certainly understand being depressed after a major life blow, and I am sorry for your loss...It is not the depression that I am "hearing" in your posts though - it is mania that I am detecting...Again, I do apologize if my posts are coming off as disrespectful, that is not my intent...What do you think about printing off your posts for your doctor to evaluate?

I do commend you for not only seeing a psychiatrist, but also a therapist on a regular basis...I believe both are critical...

Mrs. W

P.S. It doesn't matter to me one bit if your doctor is male or female...What would matter to ME is how much experience they have had in treating Bipolar Disorder specifically...That is a very cunning illness and I watched my father fool far more than his fair share of "professionals" in that field...To me, Bipolar Disorder commands someone that has more than just "book learning" under their belt...

Ah yes well I originally was going to talk about the affair my wife had and how it hurt me. I was going to ask about what to do to recover. I have been beating around the bush in revealing a lot of my wifes past mistakes because shes gone now and I still feel guilty even though her drug issues were her choice. I saw her hit rock bottom before and pull it together and I guess the shock of her not getting it together this time and passing away really has knocked me for a loop.

For as long as I have known her I have been waiting to get to a place of total honesty and trust. There is no way that can happen now like I dreamed. I have to get over it

So thats why I posted here


Did your father talk about issues for years or cover them up and try to endure? Me? I even let my wife openly blame me for her problems to the children to try to keep peace while I talked to nobody. I have brought this stuff up here because I wanted the opinion of you people who really care about relationship.


Maybe what you see as "my fathers writings" that could have been over a period of time and some of my writing style about past events sound familiar. I am not offended at all I am not saying I don't have some bi-polar disorder. The Dr. said she thought it was a mild case. But lets go into this so once and for all we can all agree that I am being treated correctly for it.
When my wife said she was leaving in 2003 I wanted to do anything to save our marriage. She had recently revealed to me that she had been hiding a herion addiction for the past two years. I was working full time and studing nights to get a better job when I got hurt and couldn't work. We lost that place to live and had just moved into another when she anounced this to me. My daughter (18), had decided to move out the night before when she heard that news about how Mom had found "A new guy".
Well I had been taking the blame for most every problem for years. So I said if I was the problem I would go to a Dr. again. I had allready went before. I allways went to doctors if I thoght there were problems. I was not afraid of the truth so why not?
Well this time she was leaving and after years of lost jobs and self-respect it was the most devestating experiance to me. I never thought that our family would be destroyed. We had been through so much together.
I knew the cycle that Mom had gone around in before and she was entertaining that "rebelious wild thing" that she would jump into once in a while. I knew though that i needed help to deal with this so I went to a very prominant and active facility in the small city we lived. I had hoped she would talk to someone about her problem but .. she wouldn't be honest with "those people" as she called them anyways.
I talked to the doctors and was honest about everything they asked. My childhood and feelings. He said that I had bipolar and that he felt that my intellegence and moral character had helped me to survive and even thrive in most of my life.
The Doctor at that time gave me lithium and well that stuff knocked me out. He then gave me lacmetatol and was satisfied with the results. I continued seeing him until our family went homeless and we all moved to a different city. When my health got better and I got work again I started taking the medication again and got my kids back into a house. I continued to seek counseling and taking medication.
One point to see here is that as time went on I learned to accept the fragmenting of my family, along with the realization that it wasn't all my fault. My symptoms got better and the dosage was lessened. The truth was working to help me. I was going to be OK.
Eventually my wife got the treatment she needed and when the new boyfriend was tired of her she came home. She fought to get her head back on straight and she was doing real well when she got lung cancer. I never stopped going to the Drs and seeking counsel or taking medication.
.


I can gaurantee you I am not trying to fool anybody. I have been honest with every relationship including the Doctors but I am glad to hear that someone who has had experience in this is here.
I have seen more than this one Dr. and they seem to have the proper degrees on the walls that would suggest they knew what they were doing. I sought them out for help because I thoght something I was doing wrong was driving my now late wife to want to dissapear on drinking binges. I got her into many dry-out clinics that when we talked to the drs., they said she had emotional issues and might need medication. She refused to admit that she did. She liked to blame it on everything else.

But you see that wasn't allways the case. She wasn't allways drinking and living in total denial. There were so many stages and times of her sickness and I decided not to try to write about them because it probably can't be accurately expressed.

Believe me I have dealt with "crazy people" my whole life and I know that we all can fall into wrong thinking if we don't keep it real. I believe also that it is because I seek help that I will find it. The Drs. are qualified. I don't look for one that fits my ideas. I do ask them what they are talking about though.

So I am trying now to pick my life up off the ground. I am physically disabled and that time when my wife would be healthy again has gone by. She died at home attended by her family and fellow church-members and we had put past problems behind us.
The point of posting here is that I know I suffered from my wifes affair with alcohol and drugs. I need to separate the truth from the fairytales. I want to take the blame for what I did or didn't do. I really already know. Its just painful to watch someone get so messed up from drugs. When she stayed away from drinking she was insecure but most of the time happy and a blessing to be around. Dr Harley made a comment about how relationships cannot be worked on untill the drug abuse issues are dealt with. I have seen my late wife have an opportunnity to seek mental health when she controlled her drinking. She was sober most of ten years before she relapsed. During that time she refused to admit she was an alcoholic. She was in a state of "dry drunk" as they say. During those ten years she dissapeared to her home state a couple times and fell off the wagon. She came back sorry and we got her well and covered it up and put it behind us. The issues she would not face about herself were still present and it was only a matter of time before she would fall again. Her pain in her life as a child was both the reason and excuse for her drinking problem. She was a far better person than either her parents or siblings but wasn't happy with something. Allways something undefined.

There was a period of two years that I left and it took her 6 months to see why. Then when she realized why she started to work on herself. After we got back together it was 13 years till she fell into substance abuse hard again. In the beginning of that reconciliation I felt that it was a matter of time before we would get it all worked out. I allways saw her as the woman I knew she was. Talented intellegent, Kind and thoughtful and someone who had hope for anyone. I built her up in the truth but never allowed alcohol to be part of our lives. I did that for the Kids and My wife thanked me many times for my convictions. I thought 'Eventually she will seek help for this or her Pastor would step in if she got too bad". I don't want to start in on that angle though.

I know again that the subjects seem to jump around a lot but i want to be sure i am clear about so much. I think I stated that in my first post here.
I also post here because because I have covered up Moms problems for so long thier is nobody to talk to. My Children don't need to hear this stuff. They allready lived some of it. I go to alanon but feel the need to talk more.
I hope that what I said makes sense to you and i thank you for your time in responding

sortingitout,

The very best and kindest advice that I can give you regarding personal recovery is...

1. print out your posts from here

2. take them to your psychiatrist and therapist

3. tell them what the purpose of this board is

4. ask them what they think about you/mania

Good Luck...

Mrs. W

Thanx Mrs wondering.

I am here because I wanted to confirm that I did the best I could to save my wife and my marriage. I realize that this forum is for people who are still actively seeking to build thier marriage and/or help others. I get the feeling that you don't think I am seeking counsel with a therapist or taking my condition seriuosly. Thats Ok. I am confident that I am.
I also want to help people if I am able to not make the same mistakes of isolation that I did.
I would like to hear from others if they think I am not helping in the forum with my posts.
If i am harming anyone or thier efforts to build strong relationships I will stop posting and just browse from now on.

I am also reaching out within a community that has some wisdom in relationships too.

Please comment yay or nay

sortingitout,

I think you've misunderstood me, or perhaps I haven't expressed myself well enough...I'm certainly not telling you that you don't have a place here...I am voicing concern for you and I am urging you to schedule an appointment with your doctor to discuss the possibility of a manic or hypomanic episode and treatment for such...Because I KNOW firsthand what happens if mania is left to run it's own course, and I don't want that for you and your family...Also, you've told me more than once that you have a "mild case"...I wonder if you are aware that Bipolar Disorder is something that worsens with age? Yet another thing to discuss with your doctor, imo...You've been through a lot recently, SIO, things like that can tend to "upset the apple cart"...Please take care of yourself - I KNOW that you think you are, but I'd just like to point out that often the disorder itself can lead you to draw false conclusions where your own care is concerned, ya know? I'm just hoping that you get all the bases covered...that's all...

Mrs. W

Good advice Mrs_Wondering and totally sound . Thank you. I will talk to my doctor again this month and I see my therapist weekly.
I realize I write these long.g.g.g.g. posts and get very detail oriented so my apologys. I have been using this place to unload.
I mean it tho that if for any reason my posting causes others to have problems I will take a back seat.
Don't hesitate to let me know. I trust the people here

Copied this from another thread.

Absolutly agree that all these issues were present in my wife life at at varied times and at different strengths and hurt our marriage.
Hell it hurt her ability to function normally.
Great post.
Just something for the male "hero" type to think about before he tries to save the "damsel in distress".
Or for The "Florance Nightengale" types also before they reach out with too much "comfort and compassion"

To be fair tho some of the issues that were in the past in someones life like Dysfunctioal parents can only really be dealt with by individuals. I see things in this that had happened to me also. I think that this is a list of seruios problems that need/needed to be dealt with for anyone before they take on any relationship that requires commitment.

Good list of things that anyone should look over even for themselves. Examine whether they see themselves there anywhere and review whether they have dealt with everything so it can truly be in the past.

There were two times that she broke up with other men. Her first husband (a Christian) and her lover (2003).

Why did they break up? Does her xH know that she has passed away?

Im sorry imagine,
If you go to the beginning of this thread you might get a better understanding of why I posted here. My Late wife's and my story are scattered around in posts on this site. If you don't understand the story after reading this thread though and running a search on my posts. I would be glad to explain more.

To check my posts left click my name in blue at the left side of the body of my post to get there quick.

TTYL

Things have been made much clearer since I started reading and posting here. My main reason for coming here was to sort out my emotions as they are related to guilt. I have been reassured that I made mistakes and that I reacted for the most part out of my isolation and emotions.
I cannot change the past but I can learn from it. I can share with others what I have learned when it will help, a word in season.
I will continue to read here and post when I believe it will help. Thank you all for being here

I am now a Member instead of a junior member Grats me

Wow, read through some of my posts and see how far I have come in this, um, adjustment to loss shall I call it?

I am glad for this place because I don't have to be alone anymore and most of all, its totally free with people here that hold similar values in relationships and mental/spiritual health. Its like an extended family for me, and picked up where my church left off, but has also solidified my belief that I will be fine alone, with Gods guidance and nature at the helm.


Someday I will not post as much, or spend as much time here, but I will allways check in, and support ppl where I can. Its an obviuos healthy transition, as it would be for anyone, but Thank God for this forums existance and Dr Hs wisdom in creating it. I don't want to think where I would be without it. Its a grounding place for me. We all need that.

So on this Thankgiving weekend, I am giving thanks to all of you, the vets and the troubled members both, and FOR all of you, because knowing you, and learning also I am not so different after all, reminds me we are all part of the family of man.

The process of personal recovery, or shall I call it lifes plan B for me, has forced me to a place I would not have gone willingly by myself, alone with no wife to share life with, or in some ways, to serve.

Its OK, I allways knew it was unbalanced, but I did not fight for myself enough I guess, or I was waiting for God to step in to balance things out. I allways had a hero complex, and sacrificed myself for what I thought was the greater good, but thats crap, if you don't stand up for yourself.

So I got what I asked for, a beautiful woman whom I could love, and doing my half, see past her problems and issues and be a source of reality and strength. Not because she did not bring into my life meaning and definition also, because she did, and at times it was like we were made for each other, when our hearts reached out to help others, protect the weak or fearful, and gave all we had expecting a good end.

Recently the question has been posed to me, "Do you think that maybe with all of her issues, and her complxity, you did love and give her a good life, and as much or more than she would have gotten anywhere?" I really have to say no, and hope it could have been better somewhere, or with someone else who was stronger than I, and would have forced treatment, took the children if nessesary, and she had respected.

I at one time believed that for her, when I originally left, because she had great respect for Christian principles and was well aquianted with a colledge. I encouraged her to seek a man she respected from the bevy of Pastors and belivers who admired her also. I felt they would help her, if she would let them, and I was lost in the jargon that to me she used as an excuse at the time for her behavior.

But no man stepped up and took on her demons with her, and the ones that approached her she rejected, and waited for me to come back. She never understood the pain she dealt me, and i don't think she understood the effects it would have on her children all thier lives.

In my mind, if she had only known, she would never had went that road. In the end, when she was so sick because of her own stubborness and pride/pain, I don't think she would have ever got over the guilt. Guilt now that I struggle with, because there is no escaping the effects on the children, and I will constantly be dealing with the fear her legacy left them, and be here for the rest of my life, prepared to help them understand when times arise when they have questions.

I know her heart, it was never to see her children suffer like she did, and what she feared most came upon her. I will honor the women she was that I loved, and still am in love with. as I work on my plan B.

Being seperated from the drama.

Getting my life back and taking charge of what I can change.

Learning that love starts when we learn to care for ourselves first, so we can care for others the same way, and that takes guts and strength, and the peace that comes from somewhere outside our own experiences and wisdom, and the people that represent God and his nature, many of them here.

God Bless YOU !

Just popping in CConstant to say thank you for all your posts and have a GREAT thanksgiving weeekend

Thanks guys, it really means alot.

Something Mel said gave me strength. It was about triggers, and I remember how much our enviroment effects us.


I am moving soon. When we moved in here, my sons and I, before my daughter came here and my WW came her e also, it was only a place to help my wife recover from her addiction and supposed to be temporary.

Being here 5 years now, and with her passing 1 1/2 years ago. It has been a place for all our recovery really. We rent, there is no attachment to this place, and all it has is sad memories from the start.

I wanted to be strong enough to buy the house, to fight all the emotions attached to it, to honor my wife as the children did with owning the last place she lived. This is foolish emotionalism, and we need a bigger place, with better living options. Its just a house, but staying here makes no sense.


Going out to my car to go to the store it occured to me its OK, this will be better for the children, and the memories of this place can be left behind. Its not like other places we lived, where there were good times.

Thanks for reminding me about triggers Mel, and avoiding the painful past. This place rocks

Been forever since I posted on this my original thread.

Because I knew that although the most painful part of my former relationship with my late wife was Waywardness, her self abuse, and the betrayal and rejection, being here has helped me to realize a lot of what happened, over the 20+ years together.

But healing from this grief has many parts, so I am also besides a therapist I see weekly sought out advice from someone who handles complicated grief issues.

So because this was a grief thread in the title, I posted this here.

Dr H explains adultry betrayl as even more painful than the loss of a child to some people, and that makes sense to me, but I thought I would post these letters this therapist had because it again shows how deep the pain goes in adultry. The names are changed to protect them ..

______________________________

Why Patricia's Daughter Was Furious At Her For Grieving
My client "Patricia" kindly gave me permission to share the following letter exchange publicly. I simply changed the names to preserve everyone's anonymity.

Why did I want to share this letter exchange - along with what happened afterwards? Because it illustrates so clearly several key points I often make when talking to people who are grieving:

�It shows how profoundly DIFFERENT simple grief is from complicated grief.
�It shows how the same person can suffer from simple grief during one loss, and complicated grief during another loss.
�It shows how people suffering from complicated grief can be tragically misunderstood by family and friends.
�It shows how getting CLARITY about simple versus complicated grief lays the groundwork for effective grief recovery, for families as well as for individuals.
As always, if you have any questions, or would like to talk with me about your own situation, please feel free to CONTACT ME.

My best to you,

XXXXXXXX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PATRICIA'S LETTER TO ME
Dear Paul,

As part of my complicated grief counseling and in anticipation of our session on Saturday, I wanted to give you a heads up regarding one of the issues that will need to be address as we go through the complicated grief counseling process. Because the following is extremely important, whatever time you spend on reading and responding to this email should be charged against our next session.

As I mentioned, I have two children: a daughter Jane(28) and a son Peter(26) from a previous relationship.

I lost my mom in August 1998 from breast cancer. I was extremely devastated by her death and still long for her today.

My daughter is extremely troubled by the complicated grief and devastation I am experiencing as a result of my divorce. According to her, I did not experience/exhibit the same grief when my mom died, and that upsets her tremendously.

I believe she thinks that I love my ex-husband more than I loved my mom � which is ludicrous. I�ve tried explaining to her that the two are entirely different emotions and that my mom�s death did not leave me with an overwhelming feeling of rejection and abandonment as my divorce has. She is not buying my explanation.

During a conversation this morning, I shared with my daughter that since all else had failed, I contacted you and have started working with you in the hopes of finding some relief from this overwhelming, devastating grief that has consumed my entire being. She then asked me to pose the following question to you from her in the hopes that you can provide a response that she might be willing to consider.

Her question is, �Why did my mother�s death not have the same devastating impact on me as my divorce has and is still having?� Whatever your response, I will forward it to her.

Paul, I hope you�re able to provide her a better response than I�ve been able to give her. Thank you, and I look forward to your response.

Patricia


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY RESPONSE TO PATRICIA
Hi Patricia -

Your daughter is confused because, like most people (including a lot of professionals), she doesn't understand the difference between simple grief and complicated grief.

In simple grief, a person feels sadness over the current loss. It can be a deep and painful sadness, but it is a SIMPLE sadness - a clean feeling - a feeling that reflects a normal uncluttered sense of missing someone who was loved and cherished.

Complicated grief is VERY different from that.

In complicated grief, in addition to the normal sadness of simple grief, there are other deep and painful feelings that are triggered by the loss, but actually have their source in other parts of the person's psyche.

In particular, we all have parts of ourselves that are childlike or childish - parts that are immature and reflect our inner wounds rather than our inner strength. In complicated grief, these parts of ourselves are triggered by the loss event.

Two people can go through the same type of loss - let's say the loss of a divorce - and have very different reactions to it. One person might experience simple grief - being sad over the loss of the relationship, but able to move on with her life. For the second person, the loss can trigger deep feelings of self-rejection, abandonment or despair - because of her inner wounds from her own childhood.

Those two reactions have NOTHING to do with who loved her husband more - who was a better wife - and so on. They are just subjectively different experience of the loss, based on the fact that the two women have two different kinds of psychic make-up, and thus two different types of reactions.

The same principle applies to you, who experience two different kinds of grief - simple grief when it comes to the loss of your mother through death, and complicated grienf when it comes to the loss of your ex-husband through divorce. Apparently, the experience of being divorced has triggered your wounded sub-personalities in a way that the loss of your mother did not.

That does NOT - I repeat does NOT - imply that you loved your ex-husband more, or your mother less. Your daughter is simply wrong to come to that sort of conclusion�though it's an understandable mistake for someone to make, when they don't know the difference between simple and complicated grief.

I hope that helps, Patricia�and I look forward to our session tomorrow.

Best regards,

Paul


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POSTSCRIPT: WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS
Patricia forwarded her letter, along with my reply, to her daughter Jane.

During our next counseling session, I asked Patricia how Jane had received it.

Patricia told me that what I had explained in my response made a world of difference to her daughter Jane. Jane now realized that her mother Patricia didn't love her ex-husband more than she had loved Jane's grandmother.

That was a great relief to Patricia, and freed her up so that we made excellent progress during our coaching session�.and at the time of this writing, she is seeing daylight in her life for the first time in a long, long time.

____________________

The therapist deals with the many parts of ourselves that come screaming to the surface afraid that the adult in us who made the decisions screwed up. But it is interesting to note, how deeply she mourned for the loss of her Husband in divorce.

He also says that it can be up to a two year process, to recover from these losses, but unless dealt with properly, some people never recover to the point where they have thier life back, and can move forward effectivly. Some never do.

I say Screw that, never say die, and find a way to live well past your pain, mistakes, and loss. Pound on every door and turn over every rock untill you have not just moved past the pain, but have overcome it so well you can chase it away.

Live well friends

And another one..

______________________________
Dear XXXX,

Approximately two years ago, I went through what was for me an incredibly devastating divorce. I felt I had died, and even in that death, I continued to experience devastating, excruciating pain � the kind of pain that no human being should ever have to go through. The pain was so much bigger than me and grief consumed every part of my being. My heart bled constantly.

For almost three years, when I haven't been weeping outside, inside I've wept nonstop. I was alive in the natural, but I've really been dead.

However, I knew I had to function because of certain responsibilities - so I sought the help of a very seasoned therapist, in addition to seeking help from anywhere and everywhere because I was insane with grief. I bought so many books on the subject that I should own stocks in amazon.com.

Last year, during my desperate search for help, I came across your website. While my heart ached for you as a result of what your devastating and heartbreaking experiences, I was nonetheless skeptical in contacting you. While there is lots of great information on the internet, one also has to be extremely careful.

So I accepted my fate to live in hell the remainder of my life, because I knew the kind of help I needed to get through what I now understand to be complicated grief did not exist.

I continued to read the emails you send out to your readers. Finally, after reading the story about the woman whose husband had passed away from a heart attack, I made the decision to contact you. At that point in time I knew I had nothing to lose, because I�d already lost me.

BEST DECISION I�VE EVER MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When we first spoke, you assured me that you would be able to help me in a relatively short period of time and my attitude was, "Sure, ok, you are deluding yourself".

XXXX, I apologize.

You�ve not only given me my life back, but I have now begun dreaming of and looking forward to a new life. I�ve started living again. I CANNOT BELIEVE THE MAJOR TRANSFORMATION between our 2nd and 3rd session.

Paul, I am ecstatic to report that after our 3rd session and for the first time in ages, I feel optimistic about life and I actually feel ALIVE!! I feel like I�ve awoken from the dead. If I hadn�t gone through this experience with you, I never would have believed this was possible.

What you�ve done for me is nothing short of a miracle. I�ve started taking steps towards doing things I had all but given up on. I can�t believe I�m even writing this because of where I was three weeks ago. NOTHING SHORT OF A MIRACLE!!!

Thank you so very much for giving me my life back; for giving me a renewed vision of how wonderful it is to be alive. Yes, I�m alive and it feels great!! I am still in disbelief.

Thank you and may God bless you always because what you do for others like me is priceless!!

XXXXX

Again the deep pain of Divorce. I bet she really loved him also.

It is enough, i took them all and i can't say welcome to my anxiety because my level is normal.

I don't understand your post, mallah. Would you care to start your own thread and tell us how we can help? It is not a good idea to bump a thread that is nearly four years dead and pin your problem to the bottom of it.

Welcome to MB.