I realize that a lot of forum members may not be following our MB book club, so I thought I would start a separate thread here for those who are not reading along but might like to discuss their particular style of POJA - what has worked for them and what has NOT worked for them and why.

Dr. H has a simple formula for POJA. First, he describes it as:
Never doing anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

The simple beauty of POJA, as I see it, accomplishes a number of things...

1) It takes your spouse's feelings into account at the very start because we preface our request by asking "How would you feel about..."

2) It eliminates or discourages independent behavior.

3) It provides an opportunity to deposit love units by showing consideration and respect.

4) It encourages negotiation skills without arguing, by teaching us to 'table' a decision and talk about it again until both parties are enthusiastic.

4) Even if the POJA is one sided at the beginning...it provides a good example to a non MBing spouse.

5) It shows the non MBing spouse how we would like to be treated on a certain level.

6) It reassures us as MBing spouses/individuals that we are treating our spouse properly in this way and with care. There is no guessing and no regret with POJA. By using it, we know we are doing something right and proactive in our marriages. Even if our spouse refuses to POJA ideally, we hold ourselves accountable for our own behavior towards them.

Would anyone like to add to this?

How does following Dr. H's prescription for POJA, his formula and wording, work for you?

Hi Soolee I have questions about this one....can someone please share with me do you write down the things you agree on and all the good stuff with it?

I am asking this as I am thinking if you don't write it down then the other spouse can say "I never agreed to that or I don't remember agreeing to that!"

That's one of my biggest concerns as my H seems to forget things VERY easily or so he tells me....and as we are still somewhat going ahead here I need to know this as Chp 3 kicks this off....I read that but he has yet to....should read it tonight (He dones't agree with POJA either by the way....)

I'm trying to figure out how to POJA reading the Lovebusters book together! I know, starting out with a thoughtful request is the best way to go. But I am thinking that like Soolee, there are a number of home improvement projects that are just languishing around here. I might start there.

But like Gemstone, I'm afraid that he'll willingly agree and then do nothing. The past two weekends, I asked "do you think you can...." and he said "sure".

Perhaps I should try to change my strategy but use the same POJA tactics?

"H, how would you feel about hanging the shelves in S15's room this weekend?" And he'll probably say "sure".

So from there, should I say. "can we agree on a time that you will do it?"

Or does that sound too much like nagging?

I could say "do you need me to run out to the store and purchase anything you need to get them installed?" but that still leaves me without a firm commitment.

I could use some help here.

It's my personal opinion that tweaking POJA to fit the personality of your spouse is very effective.

For instance--the idea of doing "Nothing" until a decision is met has NEVER worked for me. My Husband gets his back up as soon as I suggest that a decision MUST be met. He simply will not accept doing "Nothing". He immediately feels that he is being manipulated into doing something he doesn't want to do. In fact, he has even suggested that by doing "nothing", we're silently conceding to what *I* want to do....which isn't true.

SO, in order to fix this problem, I just give him options that are more palatable to me and generally, he'll give some options until we've come to an agreement that we can both live with.

What I can't stress more is that BOTH PARTIES must be open minded. I think the biggest problem with POJA is when one person implements it, fully expecting that their spouse will be totally agreeable right off the bat. I find that PoJA has taught ME to be more flexible. When my H takes the time to explain WHY he doesn't want to do something, it really makes me realize how annoying some things are to him. I have learned to be flexible by implementing POJA. I don't lay down and let him do whatever he pleases all the time, but I don't dig in my heels, either.

POJA has been one of the most effective tools that I've learned at MB.

THis would work for me--at that point, my H would either say "yes, please do" and then get on with the project OR he'd just admit that he really didn't want to do it.

If your H is agreeing and then not following through, then he's not actively participating in POJA. He's just saying yes to get you off his back OR he simply doesn't understand that you're actually asking him to do something. I find that I have to be very clear with my H or he misses the point.

OH - I don't know if you remember Catperson. Her's was one of the threads I read a lot when I was first here. I remember she had a big problem with her husband not doing things for her. I remember some people recommended she ask for a time frame.

W: How do you feel about doing _____ this weekend.

H: Sure I'll do that.

W: Ok, it is really important to me we get this done this weekend. If you don't get to it by _____ how do feel about me getting/hiring someone else to do it/ do it myself.

If he doesn't like that, then ask him what he suggests to ensure it gets done this weekend, and begin a negotiation - brainstorm, etc.
______________________

I remember first reading about POJA and freaking b/c it didn't seem like we did that at our place. Then I realize we do, just in not so formal a way and not consistently.

Dr. Harley recommends starting POJA by going to the grocery store - nothing goes in the cart unless you BOTH agree. I believe Mel has some pretty funny stories (funny now) about their first attempts at this.

In our house we had something similar. DH loves to watch movies but we would take forever to pick which movie to watch. We'd sit staring at our movies, with him saying "How about _____?" and I'd say "No, how about ____" Then he'd reply... "Nah, I'd rather see_____. Back and forth sometimes for up to half an hour, each of us getting frustrated b/c we didn't want to watch each other's movies. Finally one day I went and pulled out all the movies I would want to watch, he put back the movies he didn't want to watch and we were left with a list of movies we both wanted to watch and so we picked from there. Viola, we were both watching a movie we wanted to watch without the frustration of back and forth no's.

In explaining POJA to DH I used that example and just told him I think we should be doing the same kind of thing for everything else. Our POJAs are pretty informal. Usually the go

W: How do you feel about _______.

H: I feel _______, I want to _______, I don't want to _____, etc.

W: Well I'm willing to __________. How does that sound?

H: I'm ok with that. OR I don't think that will work b/c ________. How about ______? (we'll go back and forth on these last two until we get something we like).

Then, thats what we do. Every so often after a decision is been made I'll still think of alternatives and I'll do a

"We could do ________, _________, or _________ as well. "

Then he'll think and see if we pick another alternative or go with what we decided earlier.

The rule we operate by is only suggest things you are enthusiastic about, that way if the other person agrees - boom, you've got POJA.

We have these kinds of conversations all the time.

The only struggles we've had is that sometimes, he is dishonest about what he thinks/feels and agrees to things just cuz. I've had a big hand in creating this as the first few years of our marriage I was a big baby and pouted when I didn't get my way. Since finding MB though I've made an effort to change and DH has noticed and tells me frequently he appreciates it. He makes an effort to be honest with me b/c he knows thats what I need and I make an effort to be open to his opinions.

I think that, for me, the key to POJA was the realization that I am not always right and my way isn't always the only or best way. I had to learn to respect that my DH is his own person with thoughts, feelings, and opinions that may differ from my own. That doesn't make mine or his bad or wrong, it just makes them different and that's a GOOD thing. If I wanted it always my way I should have just stayed single.

Often times the POJA is pretty short b/c one of us doesn't have a strong opinion either way.

W: How do you feel about going to eat at _______ for date night.

H: I don't care where we eat, I just want to spend time with you.

W: Ok so dinner at ____ and then ________ movie?

H: Sounds great to me.

Wow I wrote a novel- but thats how POJA goes at our house.

Well...I think in some cases we may need to dig deeper to recognize a learned/bad habit and take steps to extricate it from our style of communication. Just because our spouse agrees to something doesn't necessarily mean they're enthusiastic, and that's a bad habit we can get into - agreeing to things we aren't enthusiastic about, and/or accepting what we deep down recognize as an unenthusiastic agreement.That's not a true POJA, from the way I understand it.

We may need to pull back and say "Even though you've agreed to this, I'm still getting the impression that you're not enthusiastic about it. What would make you feel better about it?"

We may need to make more effort to recognize a bad habit in ourselves and be brave enough to table something and continue POJAing the issue, even when the original answer was in our favor.

I'm not saying to disrespect our spouses' answers. I'm saying to be O&H with ourselves and in turn with them about our perception of their answer. Does that make sense?

I think Soolee hit on a key point. And I think it's a big part of why H says "sure" when I ask him how he'd feel about (insert honey-do job here). I'm the big baby here and shy away from the potential conflict of "I'm getting the impression that you aren't enthusiastic" because I'm anticipating an annoyed response along the lines of "I just said I'd do it, don't nag at me."

Then I get all hurt and pouty and he gets mad and we're off to the races.

But holding it in isn't helping me either.

OurHouse....that is exactly the problem I am having right now. My husband agrees to everything and then just doesn't do it. He even does this with projects he was initally enthusiastic about. There are many things needing doing at our house. We don't always agree where the time/money should be spent. Sometimes we discuss it, come to an agreement (or so I think) and he ends up doing what he wants anyway. These are usually projects at which he is skilled so I don't feel like I have a real say in the matter as I am not capable of actually doing the work.

I do believe that he wants to get things done and really does run out of time. (Don't we all?) I just want him to realize that this happens ALL THE TIME so maybe he is committing to too much.

When I respectfully suggest something he makes me feel like a nag (especially since I really can't help.)

Not glad that you are having these issues but sort of glad that I am not alone.

I agree. It's a hard habit to break. Reading the LB book on SDs last night it talked about how one person being a Giver could give in to SDs and thus encourage the other spouse to keep taking which is fine til the Taker slams the breaks and everything flies out the windshield. This can happen in POJA too - one spouse's Giver gets them to agree when they really don't want to do something, encouraging the other spouse to make all the decisions.

Real life example:

Two days ago DH comes home and tells me another couple called and invited us for pizza that night.

I assumed, since he mentioned it that he wanted to go so I said, "That'd be great I won't have to cook. I do have to work a bit but we could go for an hour or so. I've been wanting to hang out with them for a while."

He said "Ok, sure". But there was that tight look in his eye he gets when he doesn't want to do something. I could have ignored it and gone right ahead with going, since he agreed and we've been trying to stick to the policy of doing only things we're enthusiastic about it. If he agreed and he isn't enthusiastic and he knows better then it's his own fault if he's unhappy - that could be my train of thinking.

However, I've been working hard on creating an environment where he feels safe expressing his thoughts. So instead of ignoring his look and doing what I wanted and he agreed to I asked "Do you want to go?".

He breathed a bit and relaxed and said "Not really, I'm tired I just wanna stay home." Since I was ok with that too, thats what we did.

Most men are bad about saying they are going to do something, then not doing it. The reasons are different:

* Procrastinator - he just can't get started on stuff. He is forgetful, and late. He needs to fix this outside of POJA.

* Passive aggressive behavior. Deep down inside, he hopes to get out of it. May even want to not do it, period.

* Punishment. Beyond passive aggressive. He is mad at you and does not want to do anything to make you happy.

Now that I have these bigger personality problems out of the way, there are other reasons which are more legitimate.

* He is unable to set priorities, or you are not communicating priorities to him. You also said you wanted his home office cleaned up, the yard raked, shrubbery trimmed, and the blinds hung. He can't do them all at once.

* Priorities change, and there are real priorities. Be reasonable. If I promised to hang the blinds, I try to go buy them beforehand, so I have them ready to hang. But let's say I agreed to hang them on Saturday. Now it is going to rain on Sunday, and I have outside stuff to do, like replace that broken window before it rains. I can hang the blinds on a rainy day. The problem is communication. I need to discuss changing the schedule with my wife, and she needs to understand my reasoning. If she has another solution, fine.

* If you need ingredients for a dish to take to some party on Thursday, and it's Wednesday, don't get all ansy at 4:00 PM because your husband hasn't gotten the stuff like he said he would when he ran to the Post Office. He is home, on the phone with a client, and will go to the PO and get your stuff in 30 minutes. Don't start fussing about it being late or not done 24 hours in advance.

* Don't stand over him and micromanage the job with criticism. Maybe he has never replaced a toilet before. He wants to do it and learn. You can either say you don't trust him, and insist that he spend $100 on a plumber, or you can accept that it is going to take him two hours and a trip back to the hardware store to get it right the first time.

* Most importantly, if you want to turn reluctant agreement to enthusiasm, REWARD him when he does a good job, and on time, and without reminding. It works for dogs, horses, and children. Works for men, too.

Well, after reading here, I put some thought into action and I have a success story to report. It helped that he opened up the topic in a related way:

HIM: I need to get at that storage area. But the problem is, some stuff needs to go into the attic. And some stuff needs to go into the garage. And the garage is a mess and needs to be straightened. And we need some plastic tubs.

ME: Are you feeling overwhelmed?

HIM: Yes!

ME: I can see how. I agree, it's a huge task. I want to help. Can I help?

HIM: I'd love it.

ME: I have an idea. Would you like to hear it? ( I asked this because he feels I don't listen to him and just charge off into my own idea..so I have been going out of my way to try to acknowledge him. And doing the 'listen and repeat' thing does NOT go over well with him. I found this way works better.)

HIM: Yeah, go ahead.

ME: (I proceed to lay out an idea about breaking it down into smaller pieces, starting with one specific area of the garage...his tool bench ('cause he's going to need his tools to fix stuff around here....), separating stuff into 'attic, storage, stay in garage and goodwill piles, and setting a time limit.)

HIM: That sounds good. Do you want to tackle it this Saturday?

ME: How about Saturday afternoon from 1-3?

HIM: It's a date.

now while we're out there, I will ask him how he feels about pulling aside the tools he's going to need to hang the shelves, etc.

Retread, I have found that in myself and other people I've talked with both male and female, procrastination is a warning sign that I am not eally enthusiastic about whatever the task is.

Now, if it's something ath is my repsonsiblity solely, well, I need to get over it. But if it is something that someone else requested I do or expected me to do and I agreed reluctantly or felt like I was arm-twisted, procrastination is my signal that I need to go back and POJA again.

Conversly, if I notice my spouse (or anyone else for that matter) is procrastinating about something that I requested and they seemed to agree to enthusiastically, instead of going and beating him up about why it isn't done yet, I can suggest that we revisit the POJA and see if there isn't a better solution that he CAN agree to enthusiastically.

Also, the ohter problem with priorities besides what you lay out is that some people (men and women) think whatever is in front of them is the priority. Everything is a priority. The kids' activities are a priority. The clean house is a priority. The UA time is a priority. Work is a priority.

When everything is a priority, then nothing is a priority.

Without priorities, we are just putting out fires while the next crisis hits, which is extremely draining and inefficient.

It is very hard for us to say, "This is more important than that." We hate making those value judgements! But truly, without assigning different values to our "priorities" then we really have no plan at all. And it is hard enough for us to do this as individuals. It is much harder for TWO people to come to agreement about priorities.

Soolee, you have hit on a very CRITICAL point about the POJA. Many spouses are in the bad habit of just agreeing to things in order to avoid conflict. It took me a long time to train my H NOT to agree to something unless he is enthusiastic about it. RELUCTANT agreement leads to more problems, which leads to resentment down the road.

I used to think that just persuading my H to go along with my wishes was sufficient, because I knew that once I got him to commit he would do it whether he felt like it or not. He would then go and be miserable and we would have a terrible time.

So, we had to learn not to go along with something that makes us unhappy. And if we do agree to something and our feelings CHANGE, that the solution is to change the plans.

Being in management consulting for tech and financial firms, I have using some of my lighter workload this last year to catch up on reading. I never get into the books that are the latest fad, that you see every man in a suit reading on airplanes. But some are good, so I have been going through them.

"First Things First", by Steven Covey, is one I really like.
Covey was for years an efficiency consultant, a speaker on time management, co-owner of those Franklin calendars, books, and software for the Palm Pilot. Well, I guess the best description is that he outgrew all that, and is into a simpler, more character-based approach. I agree with this, because the most successful, richest, best organized people I have met over the years did it all out of their head. They knew what to do next because it fit the principles which guided their entire lives, not just their business.

One thing I have learned from consulting and managing people is to not make assumptions about why they are doing things that you don't like, or don't fit the rules of behavior. Procrastination is a learned habit. What looks like procrastination is often someone who is overwhelmed with work, or multiple bosses trying to set his priorities (to their own), or has something going on that is blocking them, like money, or their sick marriage had taken their morale.

The other way this plays out is the spouse who agrees to something they are reluctant to and then just doesn't do it.

Either way, you have to make sure your spouse really is enthusiastic, rather than just getting them to acquiesce!

We had a major, major issue in our household last week due to some of my attempts at requests being perceived as demands, and my wife reluctantly doing just what she thought I was demanding, leading to resentment.

BTW, Love Busters says I am responsible for making sure that my requests really are perceived as requests, not demands.

Another thing about men. In the business world, most meetings and negotiations involve unequal power. Those who hold power use meetings and discussions to get commitment from those below them that they will do things the way the boss wants. A lot of times it is unreasonable, and a lot of it is CYA because everyone expects failure and is looking to assign blame below themselves.

More women today work in those same environments than any time in history. So they are getting a dose of it, and women managers are playing the same games as the men.

You need to leave those attitudes at work. If either spouse thinks that's the kind of negotiations that are going on, they are going to play the same games they have to do at work.

My spouse displays all three of the personality types you mention here and they are a huge problem in our marriage.

He has agreeded to things that I know he doesn't want to do and he is mean while doing them....so I know he was dishonest with me when saying Ok I can do that....I no longer will allow that....I plan on addressing that as soon as it comes up again....I do not want him doing anything w/o being enthused about it peroid and same for myself...I have shared that directly with him....but he is not on board at this point with POJA so I do what I can on my side of the asile.

Part of me agrees with this.

Another part of me believes that if my feelings change, it is not right for me to change plans at the whim of my feelings. Seems kind of opposite of what MB is all about, feelings following actions.

It just seems that could be very easily abused by a stonewalling spouse.