Um, yeah, I've gotta go with Pep on this - for someone to go to a MARRIAGE builders website and dismiss marriage as equating to a piece of paper is, oh, how to say this: stupid.

On to the next MARRIED poster. Or unmarried one who realizes that they're on a MARRIAGE BUILDING WEBSITE. Oy vey.

I'm curious: for the sake of OTHER forums, how do you consider your relationship?

Oh my god you guys. Not everyone can just SHOW UP as ENLIGHTENED as you all.

This is still a person in a painful situation asking for help. If you don't have help, what is gained by jumping all over her?

Sheesh.

Redwood, I hope my post didn't get missed. I don't agree with your 'piece of paper' stance but I am trying to help... please read those linked QnA articles.

It will explain why all these people are so upset.

Redwood,

Are you out there? What are you thinking?

JL

Redwood, update please?

Thinking about you...

A few of you have asked if I�m still here.... yes, I am. I fully confess that when the 2x4�s started flying regarding the marriage issue, I ducked my head, cowered and hid. It doesn�t mean, however, that I don�t appreciate the points of view of those of you who took the time to post your feelings and opinions. Yes, I should have recognized the potential to get smacked for the POP comment; but I honestly didn�t mean to offend anyone by that comment, I really didn�t. Marriage has always been a point of contention for my boyfriend and I. Honestly, the lack of marriage is a key ingredient as to why my affair happened. I have so much to work through on the issue of marriage and true commitment, and although I�m scared, I think there are many wonderful people here who have much to offer in helping me work through those issues, not just my affair situation.

Perhaps I need to lay my cards out on the table here regarding my history and viewpoints on marriage? Or maybe it needs to be a separate thread, I�m not sure. Suffice it to say, I DO believe in marriage; I�m sorry for my lack of compassion and making it seem as though I don�t.

To those I offended, I apologize. I accept your choice to turn away from offering me your wisdom, but for those of you willing to continue to listen, thank you. Thank you.

So, I�ve been reading and reading and reading, and thinking and thinking and thinking and I still have so very far to go. I have been reading many wonderful and heartbreaking threads on this site, and have felt myself in so many of your shoes, at least in one way or another. While all of our situations are slightly different (some markedly so), I feel very thankful having found this site.

An update on where I am and what�s been happening: I signed the quit-deed a week ago and it was an indescribable pain. I am suffering through the consequences of my poor choices, and I recognize that losing the house and my boyfriend and my cats and that whole life are the results of those poor choices. I recognize that my boundaries were (ok, I admit, still are) ill-defined. I need to do some serious work here.... Sigh. JL-- I will look into the book you mentioned. Thank you.

I have had a couple of conversations with my boyfriend since I last posted-- some good, some not so good, all of them a learning step in this whole process. I am trying to give him the space and time he is asking of me (I am letting him contact me when he needs/wants to), but at the same time, I am continuing to be honest with him about where I�m at and what I�m feeling. He knows that the affair is over and that NC has been established with the OM; he knows that I am laying myself out on the table for him and willing to do whatever it takes to work through this; he knows I am willing to wait for him until he�s ready; he�s angry and confused as to how I could go from stating that the OM is planning to move here to be with me (no, the OM didn�t live in our town) to wanting nothing more than to salvage my relationship with my boyfriend. I understand this, I really do. I mean, afterall, it�s only been 2 � months since all of this hit the fan. BF has no reason to believe me or trust that my change of heart is sincere. I understand that, too. But my feelings are still where they were when I first posted (as well as where they were when my �fog� lifted about a month ago): I am committed to trying to reconcile with my BF and build a stronger relationship. And other than work on myself in the mean time, I am continuing to reaffirm this with my BF unconditionally (hopefully w/o smothering him......).

This has all been such a wake-up call....such a learning experience....and at such a HUGE expense, I know. No matter what ends up happening, whether he ever forgives me or not, I know I will be a better person because I�ve been forced to learn some things about myself, and what I want from a spouse, and what can happen when boundaries are ill-defined. And I�m encouraged (though admittedly overwhelmed, too....) because I know that there�s so much more to learn. What a long road this is going to be....

Again, my apologies to those I offended. And my gratitude to those who are willing to stick this out with me.

These are words from a remorseful wayward spouse.



I am so happy that you have found this site too, you are doing exactly what you should be doing, just remember that actions speaks louder than words and I believe that your BF will notice and see the difference in you. I think you have a chance on getting him back yes it will take time but if you are willing and patient then god will bless you with the thing you want most (your boyfriend, cats, and house back)

I will post more later, but only got this far because if your initial premise is wrong, then what follows will be wrong too. If you are not married, you did not have an affair. If you are not married, you are free agent and are free to date.

But I said this just this morning to another poster who is shacking up: "They insist that we treat their "relationship" the same as a marriage, after they have just dismissed marriage as nothing more than a piece of paper out of the other side of their mouth."

Marriage is very different from shacking up. Like night and day.

I can�t offer you any advice, not any that you should follow anyway. And I didn�t come here to bash you.
As a former betrayed husband I would just like some insight into what the cause of the waywardness (is that a real word?) is/was.
Why did you feel led to go astray and what caused you to realize that you made a mistake? Did you suddenly realize that you loved your BF a lot more than you originally thought? Was OM abusive towards you? Was it not quite the fantasy you thought it would be? What changed your mind so quickly? Obviously you thought OM could meet some need that BF didn�t.
I�m just looking for some bits and pieces of information to help me with my own experience. I mean no offense towards you.

Redwood,

Let me offer you some advice. Would you do me a favor and read Harleys four rules for a good marriage? Then would you read about love busters? And then read about needs and realize that Harley came to understand that often well meaning people tried to meet their spouses needs, but failed because they either didn't know their needs or tried to meet them as they would like them rather than how the spouse meets them.

I have a reason for this and it is simple...YOU ARE VERY CONFUSED ABOUT MANY THINGS.

We need to sort that out first. You are paying a huge penalty for having a relationship with a man other than your BF and yet other than honor and breaking your word there was/is no reason to pay that penalty. As Mel and others have said you are not married. You are not married for many possible reasons but it will boil down to one or the other or both of you did not want to commit.

My W had this discussion with our daughter who said "**** is single again, she broke up with her boyfriend." My W pointed out there really are only five (maybe six) legal states of being:

1. You are single.
2. You are married
3. You are divorced.
4. Your spouse is deceased.
5. You are deceased.

Some folks would say there is another you are engaged. But, engagment to me is a tryout period where there is commitment to commit IF things work out: ie: we are going to try to see one person. But, if that is too much the engagement is off.

My point is you need to learn why you put yourself in the position you did. Why you made the choices you did. And What it would take to be actually married and commited in a marriage, hence the reading I am suggesting.

We clearly are not trying to save your marriage. We are trying to help you understand relationships and how to make them work, and then grow them into something you can commit to. That something is called marriage.

Does this make sense to you? I hope so.

Does this sound like it will meet your needs to address why you chose to be with another man rather than your BF? Does this sound like it will meet your needs to understanding marriage and what it should be should you get to that point with your BF or any other man?

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

It's going to be a hard road, but thanks for the encouragement, SapphireReturns. Much to learn here....

Cheers~

MelodyLane,
Point well taken. You and JustLearning below hit on some very valid, very similar points. I am certainly confused about marriage, commitment, relationships, etc. I mean, it hit me today like a ton of bricks that not only is this man I love not my spouse, he's not even my boyfriend right now! Pretty hard accepting the simple fact that I need to start calling it like it is: he's my ex-boyfriend. Geez, talk about having trouble accepting things...just typing the word "ex" hurts. Sigh.

Timetofly,

No offense taken. Wow, these are some great questions. While I can't say my answers will provide any insight for you, I'll offer my story, such as it is....


Why I feel I went astray...there are so many things I could list, but what I think it boils down to is that I was ignorant to what it takes to make a relationship work, plain and simple. But everything that that entails is anything but plain and simple. Where to start? I had no idea what boundaries were; I had no clue how to communicate my problems or my emotional needs with my BF; I was afraid to ruin what we DID have, even though I wanted more; he wasn't willing to offer me more; I was insecure; I allowed myself to feel vulnerable.....I could go on and on, but no matter how many reasons I could list on why I felt led astray, none of them are an excuse for what I did. There is no excuse.


I'm not sure exactly. I know that I realized about a week after I moved out that the grief of losing a 10.5 year realationship finally started to hit me. It was overwhelming. But the grief I started feeling never subsided and eventually it just got worse and worse. I began to wonder if it wasn't grief but something more. I guess you could say the fog was starting to lift. Whatever was happening...whatever I was feeling...I just knew that it was drastically different than I was previously thinking and even different than how I thought I would feel once I moved out. I'm so thankful I started a journal when I first started feeling a connection to the OM, because looking back at earlier entries has been sooooo incredibly eye-opening. I don't even recognize myself, but I can certainly see the moments when I started realizing the extent of what I had done.


Anything but. Well, at least not how I think you mean. He was at my feet--flowers, poems, songs, gifts.... Charm out the yingyang. But it wasn't until I read an article HERE on MB about how/why affairs start, did I realize how incredibly foolish I was to believe in it all. Now, was feeding me all those lies and charm abusive? Well....


Entirely not the fantasy I thought it would be. But not because of anything OM was/wasn't doing, but because of me. He was offering me every fantasy I wanted; the problem was that I found myself not wanting to buy into it. I didn't love him, though I certainly felt like I did at the time. What changed my mind so quickly was literally reading that article here on MB that talks about how and why affairs start. I was absolutely floored that everything that I thought was so special, so unique to us, so precious and fateful, so "soulmates", so "no one in the world gets this but us".... was so incredibly text book. Embaressing, really. And it's been hard not to beat myslef up too bad about this ignorance. Again, I have such a long road ahead of me in this journey.....

Please excuse the interuption.

I am reading a lot of "I" statements. R17, do you understand your boyfriends perspective on this?

ONE month ago... no only a few weeks ago - his world changed. You moved out.
You are going to have to look at this situation from his point of view. We have quite a few dude posters here who can fill you in.
And a significant ammount of lady posters, too.

JustLearning,

I'm trying to read all I can and have already read some of the things you mentioned, but I'm still learning and have much left to read.

Here's the super-short background on the marriage issue: as a child, I wanted to grow up, get a job, get married, have kids...everything that I thought I was supossed to want. Then in my early 20's, I learned about all of the affairs my Dad had when he and my Mom were married (I was actually on the phone with my Mom when she discovered it by opening a letter in the mail from one of my Dad's OW), and was so heartbroken I think I swore off men and marriage for about a year. Met my BF shortly after that time and though I was leery, we started dating. Neither of us were interested in marriage and both felt disenheartened by watching the sad state of many marriages around us. So we just decided to enjoy each other and take it day by day.

Then, I'm not sure when it really happened, but about 2 years into our relationship (we had moved in together after the 1st year), my feelings on marriage started to waiver; I told my BF that I thought I really did want to be married someday... that I never really stopped believing in marriage but felt confused by what I thought it meant. His feelings on marriage had not changed and he suddenly felt concerned that it was going to be a breaking point for us since we didn't see eye to eye about it anymore. His compromise? "Let's buy a house!" Yes, I took what he was willing to offer me at that time because I loved him and didn't want to lose him, so we bought a house together. But each year, each holiday, each special occassion...I waited for him to pop open a ring box and offer me marriage. But it never came. I didn't know how to stand up for myself and communicate my needs (I still don't...remember, I'm still a newbie ....), and I didn't want to push because I thought he would leave me. So, while I occasionally mentioned it to him, I let the years pass with us just enjoying the moment. And I DID enjoy them. Incredibly so. Eventually, as I started to lose hope in him ever coming around to the idea of marriage, I also started to really "enjoy the moment". I basically quit thinking about marriage and just let myself love this man and the life we created.

And there's where I think it happened. There's where my guard fell. While I thought I was finally seeing eye to eye with my BF again and cool again with the idea of not needing to get married, I think I let myself down by simply lying to myself. I never got the true commitment I wanted from my BF and so I felt rejected and vulnerable. And it all caught up with me one day when all the other ingredients for an affair were in place. I think I simply gave up. At least, that's it feels like right now.

You said I am confused....yes, you are so very right. You said we aren't trying to save a marriage here... again, you're right. But if I can learn about myself through this process and really hash all of this out, maybe one day I'll understand. I can only hope. Because right now, I am simply hurting. Hurting for the losses my poor choices created, hurting for the pain I caused the man I love more than anything in this world, hurting for recognizing that I don't think I ever really recognized myself. And I just want the hurting to stop. I want to heal and I want grow.... and I want recovery.

Ok. That's all the brain power I have to offer right now. I feel like I've been babbling all night and disoriented, but thanks for letting me share, regardless. Baby steps...

Night~

Redwood, the biggest favor you can do for yourself is to get the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders by Dr Harley. It explains the dynamics of living together versus marriage. It was a big eye opener to me. Living together is always a very tenuous, month to month agreement until something better comes along.

But more than that, this book will explain in clear psychological terms the dynamics of a great marriage. You dismissed marriages based on BAD marriages. It is interesting you didn't look to a GOOD marriage, instead, to see how they did it because if you were worried about infidelity the greatest protection against that would be a GREAT marriage.

If your goal is to have a great relationship that is free of infidelity, the solution is a great marriage. Not living together. Living together situations are fraught with domestic violence and cheating.

Go get that book, please, and flip back to the chapter about "the curse of living together before marriage." It explains what happens when you live together, but is followed with a chapter on how to become a BUYER. It opened my eyes tremendously and I predict it will yours too.

Thanks MelodyLane. Just bought that book, as well as Surviving an Affair, Love Busters, and His Needs/Her Needs. Looks like I'm going to be busy for a while.... When and if my BF determines if he wants to give us another try, maybe I'll be ready....

Cheers~

Redwood,

Let's be clear about something. I am not posting to you in order for you to save your relationship.

You are grieving the loss of this relationship and after 10.5 years you should, but the relationship was not going any further, because...YOUR BF DID NOT WANT IT TO. You state yourself that you wanted something deeper, more meaningful and that is what marriage is.

My goal and I think that of others is to show you ways to start to lead your life that will allow you to develop a relationship in a way that leads to marriage. I think you sense that you want and NEED this deep commitment.

The marriages you have seen fail have all failed because the people could not tell the difference between a relationship and a marriage. I will go so far as to say that you had every right to engage yourself with another man, IF you had simply told your BF that is what you wanted to do.

Buying a house is much easier than being married. I am not saying marriages solve peoples problems on the contrary people bring lots of issues into marriages hence this site and Harley's books as well as many other books on the subject. What I am trying to say and what Mel is suggesting with her recommendation of the books for you to read is that if you learn about yourself, about boundaries, about people and their needs about the concept that each of us has a "giver and a taker" and those need to be balanced, then you will have a chance to have great and rewarding marriage.

You have fallen into a trap of thinking a certain way and you are smart enough to know it, therefore you came here. I mentioned the 5-6 states of legal existence. You are single, therefore technically you cannot commit adultery with your BF, but you can if you did it with a married man. My point is that you need to recognize where you really are so that you can move to where you want to be.

You want your BF back, but your desire for marriage isn't leaving and his desire to not be married isn't changing. Even if it did, both you would really need to learn a few things.

When I read your initial post the old saying kept coming to my mind. I know to lose a friendship of 10 years is something that would bother most people, but it seems to get where you want to be (In a committed marriage) you were going to have to lose this friendship. Breaking up no matter how "gently" it is done, leads to great pain for someone if not both.

So do your reading, ask lots of questions, and let's see if we can get you headed where you really want and need to go.

God Bless,

JL

Glad to see you are still here R17!

I just wanted to say to though that I think your situation really shows a good point.

Mel posted you based your opinion of marriage on BAD MARRIAGES and not good ones.

I will go a step farther and pose that the reason you, me and so many others, stumble upon a site like this and realize there is SO MUCH for us to learn is because

we dont have good marriages to base our knowledge on.

We are not taught as children how to be in a loving relationship. We see partial examples or outright bad examples on television, movies, in our friends and family's marriages.

We never see good ones. We dont learn about POJA or PORH. We learn about justifying, relativism, and selfishness.

Very sad. Glad to see you made it here... Good luck in your personal recovery.