Oposo, here is the link where Dr Harley describes a sitution like yours: listen here

Thanks Melody, that situation WAS mine. It was my email they discussed. I appreciate the link.

Oposo, I never said A.A. was the "only way" or that it was for everyone. I simply responded to a blanket attack on A.A. which I think is unfounded.

A.A.'s principles have helped millions to recover from "a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body." This does not mean that all members are perfect ("We are not saints." - page 60).

Not every Catholic priest is a child-molester, either. But the Catholic Church has an organizational structure that makes it possible for those priests to be reprimanded. If A.A. had a similar organizational structure, I daresay it would do a better job of it than the Church!

But it does not. If you condemn a large body based on the behavior of a few, you are going down a very slippery slope. Why, you'd have to condemn every man and every woman because some have committed adultery! I don't think you mean to do that, do you?

If A.A. had a similar organizational structure, I daresay it would do a better job of it than the Church!

Fred, I can't answer your question because I don't understand the above statement. AA has a general office and an organizational structure. So I am missing your point.

And Fred, there is a huge difference between condemnation and questioning. I don't believe in one single post I have condemned AA, and I don't hold that belief. I uphold marriages. And I repel from anything that ignores bad behavior. That's all.

I think there are people in AA who instead of working the program, they work the meetings and the people, and think they're working the program because they show up. I agree that some change their addiction to the addiction of the meetings.

I think most of us agree that it depends on the person in AA, whether or not they really recover, or just become dry drunks.

But I do question some of the things in the big book, and always have. One of these days I'll dig them up and possibly share them here.

Oposo,

A.A. is not structured like your typical organization. Most companies have an ordered, top-down structure with officers and a chain of command. A.A.'s General Service Office is answerable to the Fellowship and the Trustees, who get their "marching orders" through Assemblies and Conferences. The way I've found helpful to think about A.A.'s service structure is as an "upside-down" pyramid -- with the bosses (the A.A. groups) at the top and the GSO at the bottom.

As one of our state delegates once said, "the further I get into A.A. service, the more bosses I have!"

GSO's function is primarily to manage the publication, printing and shipping of A.A. literature. It has no policy-making or enforcement powers.

A.A.'s Three Legacies are Recovery, Unity and Service. These are embodied in the Twelve Steps (recovery), Twelve Traditions (unity) and Twelve Concepts for World Service (service). If you're interested in A.A.'s service structure and the Twelve Concepts, you can download a free PDF version of the A.A. Service Manual Combined With the Twelve Concepts.

People who state that "A.A. ought to..." or "why doesn't A.A...?" should acquaint themselves with A.A.'s service structure. They would find out that it's an organization unlike any other. And it's the reason A.A. has managed to retain its integrity for 75 years.

My Journey,
I just know that this hurts. It didn't have to be AA, it could have been any group. But when your husband decides that his wife and his family are not the top priority, it just sacks you right? My heart goes out to you...I have walked in your shoes.
M

Fred, your very first post on this thread said:

"The sad fact is that there are people who misuse A.A. One can read about the "Q" Group, the "Midtown Group" and other such that take the basic A.A. principles and twist them into cults of personality and worse."

I would suggest that perhaps AA needs to rethink it's structure as I do not feel the above stated incidents represent anything that remotely resembles "integrity". Again, this is not a discussion for this board. Let me know if you would like a link for a site that has healthy debates regarding this subject.

I prefer to be a support on this board for ANY person that experiences an entity that interjects itself into a marriage...be that an "other" woman or man, or a group or an addiction to bird watching.

And personally, I cannot participate in a group that denies or looks the other way when such destructive acts occur. To answer your direct question, would I condemn every man and woman because some have committed adultery? Absolutely not! But I certainly would also not belong to a group that knew that adultery was accepted but turn my head because it wasn't happening on "my side of the street."

Right. My heart goes out to you too. It was all just a bunch of crazymaking. Glad to be getting out of it. I am convinced that AA propped him up in a way he could hide out in the meetings and pretend to be recovering, because of this..............

I never said anywhere that any of this was right or the only right choice for anyone.

Obviously your H followed the FELLOWSHIP OF AA. Whatever that group was doing it was not following the PROGRAM of AA.

The Fellowship and the PROGRAM OF AA are entirely seperate.

I can follow the Program of AA from the Book Alcoholics Anonymous and stay sober. AA meetings are not a requirement anywhere in the Program of AA. In fact the only referance to a group is made in one paragraph on page 17. Since there was no Fellowship of AA at that time this referance was nameless.

There is no debate as to the benifits of the Program of AA. I cant tell you how it works I just know my life was transformed when I began working the steps. I will always be grateful.

I personally challenge you to show me anything out of the book Alcoholics Anonymous first 164 pages that goes against repairing marriage, family, or relationships in general.

What grinds me with this thread is that the Fellowship and the Program are being lumped together all as one and they are not.

ITA with what others have said about sick groups and certain behaviors not being a part of AA. THIS IS WHERE THE MISINFORMATION FROM TREATMENT CENTERS-PHYCOLOGY-I THINK-I FEEL- MY SICK BRAIN-HUGE EGOS IS MIXED INTO THE MEETING -PRESENTED AS "THE PROGRAM" AND THEN SOLD TO THE UNSUSPECTING.

The AA Program (from the book Alcoholics Anonymous) has saved countless lives and given new freedom to those of us trapped in alcoholism.
A REAL ALCOHOLIC WILL NOT STAY SOBER FOR LONG ON JUST THE FELLOWSHIP.

I am TRUELY AM SORRY TO ALL WHO HAVE HAD SUCky EXPERIENCES. A few wreck a good thing for the many.

With estimates of at least a 60% infidelity rate what group do you think we should go to for support?

Don't be naive enough to believe even off this board infidelity has not been sparked.

nESRE

The "So Called Entity" does not interject itself into M relationships. A person from the AA Fellowship took it upon himself.

Please back this up with written material stamped AA approved...
Could it be your H was a willing participant?

Please back this up with written material stamped "AA Approved"

You may want to read that article again. .

In that article Dr H changes all his answers to the questions when put in the context of living with an addict. The co-dependancy movement was born out of the treatment centers so spouses wouldn't get sucked down into the hole with their addict. Tough love.


When the strategy of the co-dependency movement is used in healthy marriages the results are devastating

The MB program is way different than Al-Anon. Why do you think DR H refered people to AA or treatrment upon initial first counseling sessions. and the non affected spoouse to Al-Anon?

Where on this board have you ever heard anyone talk about detaching as a common proactice? My life has been learning to detach from my alcoholic wife when she is unreasonable or demanding and knowing when a legitimate need-needs to be met.

Dont sound much like MB does it. Its a whole different ballgame when dealing with a known alcoholic.

SIGNED
Recovered alcoholic-Grateful Al-Anon member
LOw LIfe Bottom Sucker

I agree this is not the purpose of this board. However, it is the topic that this thread was created to address.

And I am familiar with many of the "debate" sites. However, I don't care to debate. I am comfortable with A.A.'s structure as it is.

Besides, if it is to change, it is the Fellowship's to change. There is no "executive committee" or some such to do so. A.A. only relies on a Higher Power.

And to date, He hasn't seen it necessary to intercede.

That is the purpose of this board.

No one is forced to participate. Membership in A.A. is completely voluntary. I have discontinued going to certain meetings because I did not feel they were addressing the core issue: living sober.

I have told my sponsees often, I have the two most important "votes" in A.A.: my wallet and my feet. I don't have to contribute to keep a group going and I don't have to attend for the same reason.

For those who have an interest, the following are the Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous, approved and accepted by the Fellowship in 1951. Please read them slowly and carefully, as their overt simplicity disguises the complex foundation for A.A.'s continued existence:

One�Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

Two�For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority�a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

Three�The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Four�Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

Five�Each group has but one primary purpose�to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

Six�An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

Seven�Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

Eight�Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

Nine�A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

Ten�Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

Eleven�Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

Twelve�Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

I have had grave relationship problems since my husband joined AA. He became obsessed with the group even though it was not helping him. The worst thing was that he refused to talk about AA, except to tell me what a wonderful program it was, and how the world would be better if everyone took part, including non-drinkers. He has not been for more than 2 years but even now refuses to talk about what he did in those years. I feel as though he is behind a thick perspex screen; I can see him, but I can't touch him.

Nonsense! The fellowship is where you go to get the program. Implying that the two are separate is just the cult member's way of wiggling out of responsibility for what really goes on within the cult.

Posting AA's 12 traditions in response to the allegation that AA destroys families is like the Catholic church posting the ten commandments as a response to allegations that some priests have buggered little boys.

I have tried to persuade him to have relationship counselling to talk about this. He will not be persuaded (yet) so I am going to go on my own. I have heard of several other people who have split up when one of them has joined AA. Perhaps it only works when they both join? He seemed to care for a load of other people and not me, and it did not help with alcohol problems; in fact it seemed to make it worse. The drinking has definitely improved since he left, so that is one good thing.