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A discussion about one of my favorite Harley books !!!!!
Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.
Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.
Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful. Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.
Buyers believe We are together for life.
Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.
Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.
Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.
Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.
Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.
Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.
Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.
Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.
Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.
Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary. According to Harley
most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.
He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers. Some more Willard to chew on:
"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."
also....
"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."
really something to think about for all of us .... ... which brings us to POJA
which is adopting the Buyer's strategy
means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests
up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement
which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles.... Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility
and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners
this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse
every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship
think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner So ... what is the "agreement" we make in our romantic relationship? AKA .... MARRIAGEFreeloader
Renter
Buyer
represent our agreement in our romantic relationships
while Giver/Taker are instinctive influences to everyone irregardless of our current agreement
Harley says:
"The Buyer's, Renter's, Freeloader's agreements determine how the Giver and Taker influence each of us."
..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.
Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.
Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.
But for very different reasons .....
Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.
Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accomodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.
SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves in order to "save the marriage" .... If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..
What is so wrong with sacrificing in a marriage anyway?
The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.
Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.
Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.
When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguements and fights and resentments are the result.
.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.
Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.
But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.
So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.
Harley says it this way:
"A relationship based on sacrifice does not keep partners in a good mood. In fact, over time it tends to create a very BAD mood between partners. And whenever we are in a bad mood, our Takers come to our rescue.~ Are you unhappy? That's because you've been giving too much. Now it's time for you to do some taking~, our Taker whispers to us. " How does the RENTER agreement start arguments?
Harley says:
"Demands are usually the first step in an argument."
"When one partner tells the other what to do, it's because his or her Taker suggests that the demand is reasonable."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!
~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker.... When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."
manipulation begins .... choose your weapons The ANGER and cursing and the RESENTMENTS are your Taker's way of coming to the rescue when your Giver has been unchecked. I suggest, to those of us who are feeling RESENTFUL, that we make a comprehensive study of 'sacrifice' and how we have valued 'sacrifice' as a tool for getting what we need .... no matter who is doing the sacrificing. Sacrifice is a dishonest way of getting our needs met. Harley says:"What I'm saying is that your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. This doesn't rule out short-term sacrifice, though, because your Taker can be enthusiastic about some forms of sacrifice, if they're in your long-term interest."
"But when you agree to something reluctantly, it means you are sacrificing with no personal gain in sight. You are doing it for someone else's gain. That's why your Taker usually tries to sabotage any agreement you have made reluctantly." ! 
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The Buyers approach to problem solving. Byers don't try to control each other. Buyers don't make demands. Buyers don't show disrespect or lose their temper. They solve their problems by negotiating solutions that are win/win. Dependency You are dependent when what you recive is not balanced by what you give in return. How can we create a dependent spouse? When we are in the early/Renter romantic stages of a relationship, we tend to give and give and give ~~~> sacrifical giving. And all that giving creates a DEPENDENCY in our spouse. All that giving creates EXPECTATIONS that are unrealistic in a long-term romantic relationship. Giving without wanting anything in return ~~~> the Giver is running wild and unchecked. What does that create in the other spouse? Their Taker is given free reign. "gimme gimme gimme"  This sets up opportunity for abusive relationships where one spouse is giver heavy and the other is Taker heavy. No balance. No give-take. The GIVER is the one who creates this ... by sacrificing and essentially training their spouses' Taker that there are no limits to how much sacrificing their spouse might submit to.Control Once you reach a point where you have your spouse depending on you , you are now in a position to control your spouse. While our Giver sets up dependency by encouraging us to give unconditionally, our Taker has no such generous motives. Our Taker will not be denied ! Now that your spouse is dependant on you, your Taker wants to control what the spouse must do in order to payback for all the sacrificing !!! So if my Giver-gone-wild  has set up my spouse to become dependant on me ... what happends to my Taker side? My Taker begins to feel that this situation is terribly unfair, and starts to grumble  and complain ... and then make demands, start fights  and generally tries to control my spouse... and I might even run off and have an affair "Because I have done so much for this marriage and never get anything in return ... it's MY TURN to do something just for me"  yuk
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Our most angry moments come when we have allowed our
GIVER
to rule the relationship , made sacrifices, and thus created a RENTER relationship where our needs are not met.
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P O J A
The "BUYER's" agreement !!
[quote]POJA requires this question be asked
"How do you feel about what I would like to do?"
Decisions are to be made considering each other's feelings.
POJA forces you to be considerate especially when you don't feel like it
OK .... you've asked THE question "How would you feel about ...."
and this gets negotiation started ... and you realize the goal is enthusiastic agreement ... how do you arrive at that goal? Guidelines for POJA
Guideline 1
Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.
...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.
...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~
Guideline 2
Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
Harley says
Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.
It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.
(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)
Guideline 3
Brainstorm with abandon
This is the creative part.
Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.
The goal is to please both of you.
Harley says
The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.
It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.
VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***
Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.
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POJA
What about addiction?
Guideline 4
Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy Of Joint Agreement --Mutual and enthusiastic agreement
~~~> regarding addiction <~~~
"But what can you do if you have agreed to follow the POJA, tried to negotiate for a mutually enthusiastic solution, and yet you or your partner keep behaving in a way that is objectionable to the other? This kind of thoughtless behavior may turn out to be an addiction "
"If one of you struggles with an addiction, you will find that the POJA simply cannot be followed until you have overcome the addiction."
"So if you have tried to follow my advice but can't seem to negotiate with each other regardless of how hard you try, addiction may be the culprit."
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POJA ... "It's not working"  [quote] Taken from the concepts part of MB site ..... Quote Dr Harley: The Policy of Radical Honesty"Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future. To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts: 1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior. 2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure. 3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse. 4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Know what strikes me right off the bat looking at this list? ...Radical Honesty pretty much knocks conflict avoiders out !!! Which brings me to a question ....
emotional honesty ... I don't think a couple can be successful in POJA negotiations without emotional honesty.
How can one POJA with an emotionally dishonest partner?
.... lest we forget ... a conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest ...
REMEMBER THE QUESTION THAT OPENS POJA
How would you feel about this ..... From this site regarding emotional honesty
Quote Dr Harley:
"And finally, in order to make the best decisions, you must be radically honest with each other about your emotional reactions to the changes in your lives. The best decisions take the emotional reactions of both of you into account simultaneously, but without an honest expression of those reactions, you will be missing the target.
While some couples may fail to make a successful adjustment after feelings are honestly explained, failure is almost guaranteed when the need for adjustment is never communicated. Always take each other's complains seriously. As I mentioned earlier, your emotional reactions are a gauge of whether you are making a good adjustment to each other. If you both feel good, you need no adjustment. If one or both of you feel bad, a change is indicated. "
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This post, by Star*Fish, also discusses the GIVER/TAKER.
The Giver is the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make the other person happy and avoid anything that makes the other person unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It's the part of you that wants to make a difference in the lives of others, and it grows out of a basic instinct that we all share, a deep reservoir of love and concern for those around us.
But the Giver is only half of the story. The other half is the Taker. It's the part of you that follows the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. It's the part of you that wants the most out of life, and it grows out of your basic instinct for self-preservation.
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The giver is all about love and concern and the taker is our selfish side...so how can the giver be bad, or the taker be good?
Everybody recognizes the "good" in the giver and how giving can enhance relationships, but here's how a "bad" giver can ruin your marriage if all your marital choices are made solely selflessly:
*your giver is not honest....he won't tell your spouse what you need because he more concerned about your spouse feels, whether your spouse gets his needs met, than protecting your interests or your feelings. If your spouse asks the giver if it's okay to do something....even something you don't want to do...the giver says okay.
*your giver is the one who creates resentment...all that dishonesty cloaked in care....leads to misunderstandings, mixed signals, missed opportunities. The giver thinks...my spouse should KNOW what I need....just like I know what he needs.
*your giver is your martyr....endless giving creates the ever suffering spouse. Givers are praised for their selflessness, but they become very unhappy until all that's left is to somehow enjoy the pain....and get what secondary gain that offers.
*givers avoid risk and change...no rocking the boat...who knows what could happen? Nope, givers like safety....even when that involves enduring discomfort.
*givers believe in unconditional love...because they don't ask for conditions. They just give.
*givers handle your tender emotions...fear, sadness, care, consideration. They also tend to be weepy and needy.
We all know how "bad" the taker can be....afterall he's the guy who makes selfish demands, angry outbursts and most of our other LBs. But how can the taker be "good"?
*your taker is the guy you need at the negotiation table....because your giver will NOT create harmony, fairness, honesty in the dealings. Without your taker, your giver will create an environment of sacrifice....leading to resentment, anger and loss of love.
*your taker is honest about what you need and gives your spouse the information to CHOOSE to show you he loves you in the way that you would like it. He doesn't require mind reading...he lays it on the table.
*your taker fights for what you need and doesn't let you sit home three weekends in a row...he makes sure you're part of the fun.
*your taker is not an enabler or codependent.
*your taker saves your marriage as often as your giver does by making sure that reciprocity exists.
*your taker is willing to take risks and make changes.
As an example, I'd like to put forward my own marriage and how my giver undermined the happiness in my marriage for years. I NEVER went into negotiations with my taker....so I never even got close to getting what I wanted. I always put my husband first. But I wasn't happy. I didn't like it.....and I BLAMED HIM for not giving me what I wanted even though I wasn't honest and he didn't know how to please me. There is no negotiation without the taker...the giver just says "fine", do what you want. I lived with resentment every time he did what he wanted. I punished him for it too. And I was not someone who he would want to spend time with in the future either because I was pretty much angry all the time.
Letting my taker out saved my marriage. Oh to be sure, I couldn't let my taker rant and rage....but once he wasn't in chains all the time, he was far less volatile. My taker is the one who found out that my husband was actually willing and pretty enthusiastice about negotiation. Instead of the old pattern...H wants to do something...I say yes...then treat him badly. The new pattern goes like this....H wants to do something, I tell him how I might feel enthusiastic about that...we come to an agreement about how we can both get what we need....and I treat him well...and we both have fun! He gets to enjoy his activities without guilt. I know that I won't be neglected because we have also made plans together.
if you are complaining about your spouse getting away with "X Y Z" bad behavior
for a loooooooooong time,
your "GIVER" has set you up for resentments.
(word!) 
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I think my wife is a freeloader right now (just coming out of the affair) and I'm the buyer. Its so frustrating but I hope she gets to my stage soon.
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"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."
I had become lazy in my M.
Yes.
LAZY.
I am ashamed to say ....  My internal dialogue went something like this:
"Now that we are married, you must love me no matter how I treat you."
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Guidelines for POJA
Guideline 1
Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
...Ground Rule 1 Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations.
...Ground Rule 2 Put safety first. Don't make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your partner makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you.
...Ground Rule 3 If you reach an impasse and don't seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.
~~~> In other words, do not succumb to the temptations of your Taker <~~~
Guideline 2
Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework. They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives. In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
Harley says
Respect is the key in this phase of negotiation.
It is extremely important to avoid trying to straighten each other out.
(~~~> OK .... anyone guilty of this raise your hand <~~~ *my hand is up*)
Guideline 3
Brainstorm with abandon
This is the creative part.
Look for mutually agreeable areas that will create compatability.
The goal is to please both of you.
Harley says
The secret to understanding your partner is to think like your partner's Taker thinks.
It's easy to appeal to your partner's Giver ~~~> if she really loves me, she'll let me do this. BUT, lasting peace must be forged with your partner's Taker, so your solutions must appeal to your partner's most selfish instincts. At the same time they must also appeal to your most selfish instincts.
VERY IMPORTANT POINT HERE***
Resist one type of solution that your Giver and Taker may suggest --- the I'll let you do what you want this time if you let me do what I want next time solution <~~~ That's the RENTER'S SOLUTION that encourages you to alternate sacrificing for each other.
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POJA HOMEWORK:
Very important point Harley makes ~~~> Most couples try to resolve a conflict without doing their homework.
They don't fully understand the conflict itself, nor do they understand each other's perspectives.
In many cases, they are not even sure what they really want or what they are enthusiastically willing to give.
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Back to the basics.
When we agree to something reluctantly, we are being dishonest in our marriage !
POJA begins with personal honesty.
This calls upon our integrity.
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We consider something to be a sacrifice when we feel that we are giving up a thing that has value to us in exchange for something of lesser value.
The reason people have such a hard time with the concept of POJA is that we don't feel in love, don't want to give because we haven't gotten in return and can't imagine ever wanting to give any more because we have already given all we have for no ROI (return on investment). The reality is simply that our Taker is in charge at that moment and is telling our Giver that we have already given enough and it is now time for our spouse to give for a change.
If one person can begin to use the process and even better if both begin to agree to using the process of POJA, at first it feels like sacrifice, but very quickly it stops feeling that way because we are getting ROI for anything we give up. The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. POJA stops us from sacrificing and also stops us from taking from each other by allowing our spouse to sacrifice for our benefit.
The MOST important part of marriage is being in love. If we fall out of love with each other nothing else in the marriage works, matters or has any significance in our lives. It was why we got married and will be why we stay married in the long run. It is the whole point of MB and is the goal of the entire program. When we feel in love and we are in a state of Intimacy, we don't even keep score as to who is giving and who is taking because it stops being about giving and taking and starts to be about giving and getting instead.
Our Taker stops expecting anything, even in return for what we are giving when we are already getting what we want and need. When our Love Banks are full what something costs us has very little meaning. It is only when we constantly withdraw love units that we bring our spouse's Taker out and then everything we do becomes an uphill battle.
Seldom is it a great big gigantic huge one shot love buster that does us in, BTW. What happens instead is that we get lazy and start repeating the same "little" things over and over again. The day to day habits we fall into do the damage and not the one shot argument with each other. It is my drooping socks on the floor every night instead of putting them in the hamper or her setting up something with her sister for my weekend off instead of asking me if I would like to do something. These are the things that make us fall out of love and make everything we do feel like sacrifice unless we can see a clear immediate benefit to our own Taker mentality.
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Thank you Pepperband.
I'm struggling with stopping sacrifice and my marriage seems to be getting worse right now not better. I guess this is normal?
Me: 30
Him: 39
Together 5 years
Married the very best man in the world 04/06/2013 after being common law for too long. I'm a lucky woman.
7 Cats - Viscount Ashley of Leftfield, Pawkie Petunia, The Timinator, Leo the Lionheart, Fruit Snack, Cloud, and Barret
And our very lucky pony, Starbucks
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Thank you Pepperband.
I'm struggling with stopping sacrifice and my marriage seems to be getting worse right now not better. I guess this is normal? What good is "normal" when the rare thing is what we want? Don't we want a marriage where both spouses are IN LOVE with each other. What is taking the place of sacrifice? Ultimatums? Hostility? Resentment? Is your TAKER's voice now the ruler? Or, are you in the beginning of learning POJA?
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Click this *link* .... It takes you to the bookstore. 
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Thank you Pepperband.
I'm struggling with stopping sacrifice and my marriage seems to be getting worse right now not better. I guess this is normal? What good is "normal" when the rare thing is what we want? Don't we want a marriage where both spouses are IN LOVE with each other. What is taking the place of sacrifice? Ultimatums? Hostility? Resentment? Is your TAKER's voice now the ruler? Or, are you in the beginning of learning POJA? We're learning the use of POJA, but he's still using lots of AO.
Me: 30
Him: 39
Together 5 years
Married the very best man in the world 04/06/2013 after being common law for too long. I'm a lucky woman.
7 Cats - Viscount Ashley of Leftfield, Pawkie Petunia, The Timinator, Leo the Lionheart, Fruit Snack, Cloud, and Barret
And our very lucky pony, Starbucks
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We're learning the use of POJA, but he's still using lots of AO. Please, reread the guidelines for POJA. (9 posts up) Basically, keeping a safe environment.
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We're learning the use of POJA, but he's still using lots of AO. Please, reread the guidelines for POJA. (9 posts up) Basically, keeping a safe environment. We need to talk about this when he gets home Friday.
Me: 30
Him: 39
Together 5 years
Married the very best man in the world 04/06/2013 after being common law for too long. I'm a lucky woman.
7 Cats - Viscount Ashley of Leftfield, Pawkie Petunia, The Timinator, Leo the Lionheart, Fruit Snack, Cloud, and Barret
And our very lucky pony, Starbucks
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We need to talk about this when he gets home Friday. In the meantime, think about where in the POJA process your H usually becomes angry enough to have an outburst. Is it when he is expressing his feelings/ideas/concerns? Or .... Is it when you are expressing your feelings/ideas/concerns? Think it over.
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Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
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