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Originally Posted by CanItGetBetter
Thank you Emily and Melody,

I have been honest with W about my discontent. We exchanged EN questionnaires and I indicated that SF is my #1 EN and that I am profoundly unhappy the way things are. The question is how persistent I need to be in keeping the issue in focus. W certainly avoids giving the topic much attention.

I brought up that I wanted W to join me in counseling. The result of POJA negotiation is that we have two appointments for counseling in person locally. I used MB principles in an email to three candidate counselors and selected the one most supportive of the goals of meeting each others EN and eliminating behaviors that make each other unhappy.

I have spoken to W's doctor (who is also my primary care doctor). Explained that I am concerned W is depressed. Informed him about W's pain during intercourse and that she hasn't made love (successfully) with me in two years and I an unhappy. He took notes.

I am not afraid W will leave me (perhaps emotionally she already has).

W might get angry, but I think I can handle that as long as I believe myself that I have acted ethically, respectfully and with compassion.

I am afraid that pushing too hard will further her alienation and detachment.

I am afraid that complaining too frequently will aggravate her aversion.

I am also afraid that not complaining enough permits denial and avoidance behaviors.

I can put aside my fears. What I can't put aside is this: I don't know that persisting in raising the issue of my needs is compatible with restoring our emotional connection. As you have pointed out more than once Melody, I can't expect W to be willing or enthusiastic about SF until she feels emotionally connected and confidant she will have a pleasurable experience.

When ask about "tabling the issue of SF for now", it is with those two objectives in mind. The (extensive) effort I am making to meet W's EN will hopefully help restore our emotional bond but may need some time to rebuild my love bank balance. And W may need medical help or reassurance in order to be able to expect a pleasurable experience.

I know first hand that having my EN unmet is harmful to my ability to feel an emotional bond. In fact, I feel pretty messed up. It does make me want to behave selfishly in hopes of meeting my needs. That's all the more reason for me to want to choose a course of action that is likely to meet those needs.

I am seeing gradual signs of W coming around. At our first dance class lesson this week, W's face was the happiest I have seen it in months. W still isn't sleeping in our bed, but she is stopping in for a few minutes of cuddle time here and there. She procrastinated making a doctor appointment for a month, but eventually made the appointment for 60 days out. (I got my appointment with the same doctor in 3 days when I called to say I needed help with depression.)

I don't know if I'm seeing W making real adjustments at a very gradual pace, or if I'm seeing very effective passive aggression.

I'm thinking plan A through at least December, since W won't receive medical advice until then anyway. Doesn't plan A call for a temporary willingness to cope with having ones own EN unmet?

CIGB, I'd say it sounds like you are thinking very soundly. I agree with the suggestion to seek help through the coaching center. Get the experts involved in your case!

As far as having your needs unmet, every marriage has the potential to go through situations where needs go unmet. Sickness, disability, etc. Marriage vows are "for better or for worse."

From what you are saying, it sounds like you are making great strides toward filling your account in your wife's love bank. Continuing on this course has the greatest potential for success in getting your needs met, because your wife's willingness is going to change when she feels differently about you. Don't sweep the problem under the rug, but don't apply pressure, either. "Should" is a disrespectful judgment and you need to take great care to keep it out of your vocabulary.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by CanItGetBetter
Thanks for your encouragement Emily and Melody,

After breakfast, W spent 2 hours with me cuddling and SF. (note to Markos. Yes I was appreciative). Good for W. Not quite satisfying for me physically. Very good for me emotionally.

(Woohoo!)

Quote
W is "on board" with the goal of 15-20 hours/week of UA time. We still have some work to do to get there. As "empty-nesters" we currently spend 30-35 hours/week alone together. Our challenge is to upgrade the quality of the "undivided" and the "attention".

We've taken some good steps. Enrolled in dance class. Shared some recreational road trips. Upped the frequency of eating out, dog walks together, going to movies.

On Friday I told W that I'd like to serve the lemon chicken supper I plan to cook for Sunday on the dining table. Yesterday W cleared the pile of her work stuff from the table to make it available. With the dining table clear, we'll be able to make some of our meal times UA (we've been eating in front of TV). That will add 2 or more hours of UA per week. I introduced the idea of eating at the dining table 3 weeks ago. It can take a while to put the pieces together.

My next UA goal is to get some affection time every or most bedtimes. W is still sleeping in guest bed and that removes many opportunities to meet EN for affection and SF. I've brainstormed the following actions I might take.
a) Buy the new mattress W has been wanting. We put this off last month due to financial stress of DD auto accident. I sleep on new mattress every night. W sleeps with me if she wants to be on new mattress.
b) I follow W to whichever bed she goes to. Snuggle in even if the bed is too small (guest bed is a twin).
c) Bring issue up with our joint counselor.
d) Thoughtfully request that W go to our bed with me at bedtime. If she is restless after I go to sleep, or agree to "lights out", she can then move to other bed and I won't complain.

As far as I can tell, you are doing great. She is expressing willingness to follow this plan, you sound like you are following it well. If you keep at this course, you will slowly but surely be making love bank deposits. Please look up the October 25 radio show and listen to Dr. Harley's description of what happens when a wife passes the romantic love threshold in her love bank. It will give you hope and tell you what you can expect.

I echo MelodyLane's concerns about the effectiveness of most marriage counselors, and the fact that you only have ONE SHOT here, so I suggest you go for the best.

I also echo the comments about UA time. That's the key, and it sounds like your wife is increasingly enthusiastic.

At the very least you can talk with Dr. Harley for free on his radio show.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by CanItGetBetter
W has said she is glad I am promoting UA time and she seems less depressed.

This is good news, CIGB. You are doing well.

Quote
I think it is going to take some time for the changes in our habits to catch up with changes in our attitudes.

You are absolutely right. I am going to try to go find two good helpful posts on this for you to read.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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#1:

Originally Posted by Extremely Lost
Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.

This is the original, but it's embedded in a long post about a bunch of other stuff. I include it only because I tend to be a historian:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659425#Post1659425

EL was relating something he had been told by Steve Harley in a phone coaching session.

#2:

Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
the first is one used by the poster DoormatNoMore;

Creating romantic love after infidelity (aka "healing") is like creating a new island by chucking buckets of sand in a lake. It's going to take a lot of sand before it begins to peek above the water. Wind, waves, rain, and storms will wash that peak away, but you have to keep chucking buckets of sand.

...

she has wrapped herself in a protective shell. There are small cracks in that shell where some light can get in. You are tossing grains of rice at this shell, hoping to give her the nourishment she needs. If you throw only a single grains, or only small amounts (not keeping up with UA, not meeting ENs) they are not likely to fall through the small cracks.

However, if you throw HANDFULS (20+ hours of UA time, becoming expert at meeting her EN's, adhering to EP's), then some grains can slip through the cracks and give her the nourishment she needs to go forward.

She is STUCK in that cave, sir. And your actions put her there. She cannot simply decide to come out. Your action is what will free her.

Original:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=164877&Number=2556440#Post2556440


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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CIGB,

How are things going?
Did you get the new bed?
Was your wife's doctor visit helpful?
Has your improved UA time upped you love bank reserves?
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!


50+ yo couple enjoying our empty nest.
Young adult kids out on their own.
"Enthusiastic agreement?" is our catch phrase.
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