Yes, that's what I figured. So, it's back to him getting his needs met and you not. Are you having fun during RC? What about the other needs? We know all about SF...but what about intimate conversation and affection?

How much UA time (if there's been adequate UA time) have you spent this last month, "having fun together" or meeting these other intimate needs?

Sad part? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

Seriously. You just listed some beautiful areas that you have in common with him. What percentage of people on this board can say the same thing?

How many people do you know that have that much in common with their spouse?

Here is a suggestion: print up that list you just typed, show it to your H and start using this as a basis for your UA time?

Talk about your hopes. Talk about your dreams. Talk about plans for the future. Enjoy each other�s company every day. Stop obsessing about what is wrong and just get some quality UA time in.

He is showing you he wants to play ball. Are you going to take the ball off the court and go home?

UW, that is what is going to turn the tide here. Make yourself easy to love.

No faries are going to pour pixy dust on you and your H to make this a wonderful thing.

YOU have to make it wonderful thing.

You know what to do: now go do it!

The looming 2 year mark has really taken a toll on you this summer. No wonder you have been so tense and pushy.

I think that based on the progress you have made in the last four months you should ignore the 2 year marker. You are not approaching the end of your marriage.

20, the issue here is that UW HAS been doing this - for a long time - depositing many love units - while Mr. UW has not responded in kind, unfortunately.

I love your optimistic attitude - and I am very much an optimistic person myself. (Which is why I'm "sunny") The problem is, Mr. UW is taking all this for granted. At least, that's the picture that has been painted for me. And that has led to many love unit withdrawals on his end.

It's a matter of looking at the situation in its entirety rather than just the last few pages.

BUT...you do have some great thoughts and suggestions - and are asking some good questions here. I'm not dissuading you from your advice. Just explaining, from my point of view, why UW might seem to be fighting it.

You can only do the same thing so many times without getting good results, before you want to give up doing it - or should.

Having said all that... it IS important to get over the "yeah but..." attitude. I know this because this used to be me. This is a BIG change that I made in the old me vs the new me - in my marriage.

Where the difference will come in, with ALL of this, is if BOTH parties are DOING the program - 100%. For my part, I keep thinking - how can this be made to happen???

Yes, I am familiar with her story and have read her entire thread.

In summary I see since her first post in April that MB has not been followed. I know first-hand how narrow of a road R is and I do not believe I would be in R without following each step one by one.

That is most likely the reason they are where they are.

However, this tide can be turned as many of us know.
I can only guess why she is fighting the advice given to her. R is not easy on anyone. It is the hardest thing I have ever done.

DONE and DOING that is. Not wishing myself into success. I am not saying she is wishing herself into success but MB is about action. The right kind action. Disagree with me all you want but I just don�t see that she has followed the program with the right kind of action.

This can change today.

That is all I am trying to get her to see.
She cannot force him to incorporate the MB program.

One of my conditions that wasn�t negotiable for me to start R was for my W to commit to MB program.

You are right, R is next to impossible if he doesn�t buy in.

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all, 20! In fact, I think I even posted on your thread that it takes being proactive.

You are right that the reason things aren't better now 2 years later is that the plan has not been followed properly.

You are also right that she cannot force him to work the plan. The question then becomes what to do with that?

Some advice here is for her to buck up and be more supportive of him - depositing more and more love units and just taking the crumbs he is offering. Well...if she was in Plan A, sure.

Other advice is for her to be tougher on him - that she's been taking crumbs for too long and it's time for him to step up to the plate.

Sometimes when one spouse enacts all of the MB tenets it brings the other spouse around. Other times, it placates the reluctant spouse. Why should they change? They got it good!
In the case of the latter, it can often be because that person has never really felt remorse. Further, while it may not be a necessary component in recovery with a FWW, it IS, according to Dr. H, necessary for a FWH.

The reason I am advocating more tough love at the moment (rather than for UW to continue cleaning up her side of the street) is that I see her sinking. This marriage cannot be saved if she goes so far south that she becomes wayward herself. To me, that time is nearing. I don't see her being able to continue making all these deposits without her H showing some promise and committing to the plan.

Am I right? I can only go by what's posted here. And, to be fair - I am not the expert - which is why I advised that they seek out SH's help. What I know is, if Mr. UW continues to talk the talk without walking the walk, it will just prove to UW that he is not serious about making her a happy wife. He needs to prove otherwise. But, perhaps others of you are right, that if she focuses on the positive and continues building him up, he will step up too. It just seems TO ME, that this has not proven to be the case.

It's true: neither one has really enacted the MB program fully. But, UW has put most of the effort into recovery here. She's the one posting, getting advice, and until the last few pages - taken the advice...even if she argued about it. For his part, Mr. UW has only educated himself to where he can throw around the terms when it suits him.

NOW: Am I being fair to Mr. UW? Again, I can only go by what I read into the situation of UW's posts. He certainly hasn't come on and refuted any of it.

In my own situation, there have been times when I have felt that H should lead more. When I approached him about what I wanted, he nodded his head and got to work. I actually became quite fine with "leading" recovery because my H proved - with his actions - that he was not only listening, but willing to DO something when I needed him to. And with each time, he got a happy SunnyD that was wanted to meet his every need too. So, I stopped caring about whether I not I was "having to lead" because what mattered was that we were BOTH living it.

I wish I had a better understanding of Mr. UW's "trying" and "making some effort, improving some..." Perhaps I would be singing the tune of "go have fun" a bit more. Perhaps those are just negative to me.

The MB program - from Exposure, Plan A, Plan B, etc... is all designed to work together. When you skip steps, you risk failure. I don't want to see the Unwrittens in False Recovery or living a shell of a life because they both "hung in there," without expecting more.

Does UW need to change some and do some other things here? Sure. But, my focus of the moment is getting Mr. UW on board first. THEN, those things can be addressed. Right now, UW, from my perspective, needs him all in or she's not going to be able to continue.

Once Mr. UW is all in, we can continue work on UW.

SO, UW, I think - for your part - you need to dig deep and take a hard look at how much advice you have really put into action - after making sure it is MB appropriate - and to see how much of it you have dismissed or fought off because you didn't think it fit you or your situation. Consider why you fought it. Because - you KNOW if you both really DO MB, be it SH counseling or online - you will have to face these things.

Once you have this heart to heart with yourself, maybe things will be more clear to you.

I know I had to face some things I didn't really want to change. In fact, I think we can be easier on ourselves if our spouses aren't committed to the program - because we then give ourselves leeway. We expect more from them, we HAVE to expect more from ourselves because they will. Just something I've noticed in my years of marital posting - not pointing fingers.

Yes and I hope that will be fruitful. Like I said, I wish you both the best of luck. I just don't think I can add anything else at this point, because his lack of consequences and your lack of RL support is creating a stalemate IMO.

I meant it is sad that we are BLESSED to have all that, and yet still cannot figure this out. Sorry if that came across wrong.

SunnyD I want to thank you for making me feel like I have done something right here.

Seems to me a lot of people think I am not following MB. I am not saying I am an easy sell on everything, but short from Indie's adament exposure advice, I have taken every ounce of advice I have read on here. Eliminated same sex friends. Built boundaries and EP's around our M. Changed my way of thinking about DS. Tried to meet H's needs, and tried to work on things that would motivate him to invest and meet my needs. Even with regards to the exposure, I have said that I would ask SH himself, or our coach if we get one, to see what their advice is. Because I have not understood Dr H to say the same things Indie says. I personally think that is the right approach, if I want to truly follow the MB plan.

I am not saying I am perfect. I am not saying I am not stubborn. Just that I keep trying. If one thing doesn't work I try the next. If I get a 2x4 and feel bad about it I still come back for the next one.

And I have encouraged H to post here. I have not demanded it. I have encouraged it knowing full well it would allow him to tell HIS side of the story, and that might not be real flattering to me. It might cause a lot more 2x4's to be thrown at ME. And I am fine with that, because at the end I just want us to succeed and if thats what it will take to get us on the right path, then I can handle it.

I want to thank you for seeing that. For holding H accountable for the fact that for everything I am doing he is NOT doing. For every moment I've spent reading, posting, learning, he has spent that moment planning a trip, or researching gear, or doing something else that is more important to him.

How do I respond to that? Just go out and have fun?

No. I need change. It isn't about 2 years. I did not have the pleasure of a good marriage pre DDay, and I certainly have not had one post DDay. Which means I have spent 15 years of my life living on the dream of what kind of marriage I want, rather than facing the reality of the marriage I have. I COULD have it, if I was working with two people who were totally in. I am not. I struggle with staying IN. I work hard and jump in feet first, then get frustrated with the lack of reciprocity and crash. Rinse. Repeat. You are right, I can't do this alone.

Anyway, I just want to personally thank you SunnyD for standing up for me. I appreciate everyone's advice, but I am feeling very disheartened by a lot of it in the last couple of days. I KNOW I have done work. I KNOW I have driven myself to learn MB and implement it. Until this exposure convo I don't know what would make you all think I have not. I also know I am struggling. And that is why I'm here.

Fair enough. Thanks for your support.

Your welcome, UW, because you HAVE done a lot of things right here. Moreover, you've shown the willingness to do even more things right, even if you question the reasoning or logistics of it all.

For me, that's what I look to: when you get passed the venting and frustration, who is DOING what. I also recognize that in life, due to personality types, some are more "doers" than others. That means it might take a little more to motivate H to action if he is not naturally a doer. At this point, it really seems to me that you need to seek out the experts here because so far, nothing has worked in this dept.

Indie makes a good point though about exposure, even if it's not something you want to think about. The very core of why H is not motivated to change could very well be that he has not had any consequences of his A. He has not been to the depths to come to a true, life-changing awakening. Without that - there may be no chance of real recovery. Thus, the stalemate.

You say you did not have a great pre-affair marriage and now, several years after Dday - you still do not. What does your H say about this? Does he even agree? Has he said that he WANTS an exceptional marriage? If he thinks that he has a good marriage now, is he happy that he has it at your expense?

I do not doubt that you have tried many things and stuck to the program as best as you can to this point - with exposure being the exception. I remember commenting to you once on how well you had been doing posting to others. That, to me, meant that you get it. But you can only survive so long going it mostly alone. Heck, even in plan A there's the carrot AND stick.

Not to harp on exposure, but just think for a minute, how it all comes together. I'll give you an example I read previously: if you are baking a cake and you put in the flour, the eggs, the dozen other ingredients and flavorings, but you leave out the sugar - what kind of cake are you going to have? Is it going to be edible? You put it all of the main ingredients but one... why is this darn cake got a bad texture and taste so bad?!!! Because that ingredient is too darn important to leave out.

Is it the case in your situation? I think you are wise to seek out that answer through the online program or phone counseling. Those of us that have been around awhile have given our opinion.

I can tell you this much: I believe it's why I ended up suffering a 2nd A in my marriage. I think I mentioned that early in my marriage my H had an online EA that I discovered after it'd been going on for 3-4 months. I love you's had been exchanged - all of that. I knew it had never been physical because of the content of the emails. (Plus, she lived in another state and there had been no travel.) Well, after going hysterical and threatening to leave, my H ended it. Of course, there was no MB way back then to guide the way, so I did the best I could in recovery efforts. I stashed that affair in the closet quickly and vowed never to let it out.

After ending the A, I kept check on H's computer usage and did my best to make sure it wasn't rekindled. I, like you, didn't want to tell any of our family and I certainly didn't want it to hurt our young kids. So, what lesson did H learn? The only consequence he got out of any of it was that I became a better wife! There was no accountability to a party other than me. SO...years later, when temptation struck again, you can guess how easily he justified his behavior. Not only that, he had it in his mind that others would see the justification too.

I really do believe things would have been different had I not kept that EA a secret. H would have had to face the music and I would have felt a burden lifted off me, trying to live the lie that everything was fine when it wasn't.

After exposing H's recent A, I could tell where his heart was the minute he stopped being defensive about the exposure. He got to a point of feeling that I deserved the right to tell and that it was his own fault if he had repercussions because of it.

This really may be key in your situation, UW: to get your H to THAT point.

There's also the possibility that SH or DR. H may tell you that your case is unique and you don't need to do this in order for real recovery to happen. BUT...I defer that to one of them.

All this isn't said to dishearten you. In fact, it should give you hope! Because, if there is a missing ingredient it refutes the "I've tried everything; nothing's working; it's time to give up" sentiment! You can do something about it.

I see hope in your situation, I really do.

hi UW. i haven't posted to your thread lately, mostly because i've been overwhelmed at the amount of posts & ideas in such a short period.

i just wanted to concur with sunny. when my H had his a, i was just like you (and sunny) - alone. i was shamed. i didn't feel i could tell anyone, and i felt i had no real friends here down under. it was very, very, very hard. and what did H get out of it? the same as sunny's - a terrific wife! only i ended up just like you: pissed off! because i had been doing ALL the work!

exposure, no matter how horrible it seems to us, really is the best medicine. you can't prejudge how people will react. and people really do surprise you (and i'm a cynic!). and you, UW, need their support so very much! and you may be surprised at what you find out about their lives as well. no one has lived a horror-free life. i learnt recently that even my beloved gma & gpa had troubles in what i thought was their very long & happy marriage. and it was long and happy until his early & untimely death. but it was that because they had been through the hard stuff when they had 4 kids at home, just like - surprise! - the rest of us!

UW, you have struggled so hard, and so long, it is time to lay down the burden. let others help you. stop sacrificing yourself on this altar. the religious have a saying: let go and let god. well, i'm not religious, but that saying has truth in it. when you can finally let go, things start to change. please, lay down your burden. let others give you help. there is no shame in needing, nor accepting, their help. it is love.

i'm sorry i don't have any wise words to give you. hang in there, lady.

A few observations;

Until recently, the application of MB principals was uneven. A spurt of "Plan A" type need meeting, followed by resentment-fueled AO/DJ/SD blowouts.

In the past few months, UW has been more consistent in the application of principals - this has been evident in how and what she posts. A lot of information can be gleaned simply by how and what a poster writes about their spouse.

What has happened recently, what has changed?

Likely; UW has shifted from the state of withdrawal to the state of conflict. The same may or may not have occurred in her husband since UW is proactively avoiding LB behaviors, and asking questions as to how she can; a) have her husband meet her needs effectively, and b) do so without resorting to Love Busters.


There is a pertinent piece of definition to Love Busters that says a lot; they are foolish and abusive attempts to get our needs met.

That does not justify falling into them. Instead, it allows us to understand one reason we fall into them.


In a state of conflict, with the taker in the driver's seat, it is easier to fall into Love Busting habits. At the same time, it is a better place to be than withdrawal.

Deposits are more likely to be made in conflict, and enough deposits made without withdrawals will drive the balance into intimacy.

I do not understand the whole exposure conversation in this thread. Hopefully I just missed something. UW and Mr. UW both had affairs. Is it being suggested that UW should just expose Mr. UW? Has UW already been exposed to the family and friends she would expose him?

Mr. UW is a BH. UW is a BW. UW has this forum. Mr. UW only has UW. That is by his choice and it puts a great burden on UW. She is all that he has.

I do not think Mr. UW's desire to not share his personal life with others should be dismissed. My BH feels that way and so do many BH on this board. I certainly do not think that Mr. UW's personal life should be exposed with only half of the story. I think that exposing UW's affairs would help Mr. UW but if Mr. UW is like my BS then he does not think so.

If UW is going to expose, shouldn't the exposure be done together? Should it state that they have both had affairs and they are both committed to recovering their marriage. Their marriage needs the support of family and friends to ensure that neither of them ever stray again.

We should not forget that Mr. UW is a BH and that UW is a FWW.

As has been suggested previously - the exposure would be for both of them, yes. "Liking" the idea is not the question here. It is, "is it the right thing to do?"

I can see what you're saying here, HHH. Sometimes, in the daily business of talking about most important needs, lovebusters, and balances, it's easy to forget about the state of conflict, withdrawal, and the like. At least in the state of conflict one is still in the mindset of doing something about all of it. The question is, what? Well, not only what but who - and how?

I need to go back and refresh myself on this but if I remember correctly, one won't stay in a position of conflict very long - before they revert to withdrawal. (Which is what I was getting at when I said that I feel UW is sinking...)

Mr. UW has not responded to the bursts of Plan A type need meeting in kind... so now what? You've got one partner who's account is filling up, but not the other's.

I think it should be noted that the idea here is not to slam Mr. UW. I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I'm not advocating turning Mr. UW into a bad guy with exposure or with any of this conversation. Just for the record, most of the "good people" in my life have been male. I've noted on several threads that I grew up with a critical, non-nurturing, emotionally abusive mother; my grandmother and aunt were the same. All the people I've looked up to in life - my father, brother, uncle, grandfather, and now my H - have all been male with the exception of my SIL. She's awesome! I note this because my point of view is not from a female-solidarity type position.

In my sitch, I had not had an A to expose of my own when I exposed H's affair, like UW. However, when I exposed, I made sure to educate those close to me on the whole dynamics of what had occurred, esp after we began the process of reconciliation. It was hard as heck for me - but I spilled my dirty secrets too. I can remember the shame I felt telling my family members that I had suffered depression for a few years leading up to H's affair; how I had not managed money well; how I had not been a good housekeeper and how I'd let myself go, in ways. While I knew it was not my fault H was unfaithful, I did have to own my own mistakes. I wanted my family and close friends - including my children - to understand what happens: how you have to keep the love bank full and put in boundaries, to prevent such terrible things from happening.

Having to own up to my own faults was VERY hard, esp since I had the "but he cheated!" card. Did I have to? Well...it's not specifically laid out that the BS needs to do so. However, I can tell you that it was instrumental in all the changes I made. Not only did it bring me to the realization that WE must change, as a couple, but that I HAD to change as a person. Furthermore, while it was difficult, it was also freeing! I could be REAL and genuine...and I have gotten that back in reciprocity. My relationships with those I shared with are closer than ever.

It is said that real change only occurs when 1 of 2 things happen: Either you are faced with so much pain that it forces you to change or the reward for change is so great that you can't help but reach for it. When the latter does not occur, the former becomes the default in a lot of cases.

Total hyperbole, but here it goes;


Mr. UW has likely been in and out of withdrawal just as UW has - and the "Plan A" type spurts draw out of that, and into conflict.

Then the gas gives out, and need meeting stops and/or LB's begin from UW - at the same time, Mr. UW has been eating up the need meeting, and has a voracious taker at the wheel... and UW goes back into withdrawal, with no interest in meeting his needs anymore, and it is difficult for Mr. UW to make any deposits if he tries.

He cleans up for a minute, draws her into conflict again, while he drops back into withdrawal.


It is, more or less, a crazy cycle. As in, a cycle of craziness.


Women just don't have the emotional "gas tank" to be the full lead in this - which is one of the reasons that Dr. Harley is tougher on husbands.

If that cycle cannot be broken... the end result in this situation is to follow a Plan A ----> Plan B setup.

Exactly my thinking as well.

I fully agree with everything you have said. I would have exposed myself to everyone, I think that the BH gets the choice. Since UW choose to betray Mr. UW she has to make decisions within that complexity.