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Coping with infidelity part 4 *link* OVERCOMING RESENTMENT

My favorite part:

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What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."


What do you think?

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Personally, I love the "Listen Buster" beginning of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Resentment seems insurmountable when an affair is first discovered, and as it unfolds, with its attending lies and thoughtless acts, it's amazing that anyone can actually overcome resentment. But it's a fact that people usually do, especially when the core problems leading to infidelity are resolved. It's a good illustration of how our instincts lead us astray when trying to resolve our marital problems. Most of us cannot imagine overcoming resentment after a spouse's affair, but those who have gone through it know that it's not only possible, but it's likely that resentment will fade away.

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Gods, I�ms goings to regrets this. But you asked.

�What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple.�

Agree, it is a type of abuse. But is it more or less abuse than the original adultery? Is abuse relative? Of course it is. All things are relative. (Relatively speaking.)

So, the BH still uses the adultery 10 years later to force an occasional argument. Maybe the adulterous wife should not argue in the first place. Maybe it is not all that often he brings it up. The original letter sounds to me like the WW still wishes it would all just go away: H, I demand you pretend it never happened. She definitely sounds like that kind of caught WW to me.

There are a dozen posters here on MB that would say to this BH if he posed this same story from his perspective that the BH is still not getting his ENs met. They would be all over this WW about how she is obviously still not giving the BH something he needs to recover.

And of course there are posters here who would demand this WW issue the same ultimatum recommended by Dr H (and it is indeed an ultimatum, which elsewhere he says never to do � oh well) and then D.

My, MB is a big tent, isn�t it.

�There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.�

Moment of weakness? Really? A moment of weakness???

Ok, well then, we will have to ignore this other quote from DR H (in the same article, too): �After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life.�

A bigger question: Is adultery impossible for some people to get over? MB says to the BS simultaneously it can always be gotten over and go ahead and D if you aren�t going to get over it.

But, it is never made clear how much time the BS has to make this decision. Again, some posters say never D in a rush, take your time, decide what you really want, wait and see, don�t do anything you might possibly regret later. And after a few years have passed and the BS is still not over it the general consensus is either 1) it�s their own damn fault or 2) the WS is not on board with pure unadulterated MB and is not giving the BS what they need to recover completely.

My own unofficial research tells me that it�s the former if the BS is a BH and it�s the latter if the BS is a BW. There is definite gender bias in this regard.

Anyway, if adultery is just a �moment of weakness� then gosh, none of us need to be here at all. Adultery is a bagatelle, and anyone upset by it is a fool, an abuser and a loser.

�I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"�

It would have been nice for the adulteress to have given this same speech to herself at the moment of adultery. Opportunity lost forever.

Perhaps it is just as appropriate he look her in the eye and say listen sweetie, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you did not love me and never did and your adultery is absolute proof of it. After all, what adulterer loves their spouse? What part of adultery is loving one�s spouse? What part of adultery is caring for one�s family at all? What part of adultery and the desire to pretend it didn�t happen 10 years ago is loving?

Oh wait, it�s just A Moment�s Weakness. I forgot for a second.

�What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."�


OK, here we go with the I married you for life speech from an adulterer. Sheesh, I got one too. That speech is just more proof to any BH she is still a liar and a cheat. Applies in spades to the adulteress in the original letter. I am amazed Dr H would appeal to this time worn standard adulteress fog babble.

There is actual evidence in the adulteress�s own handwriting (or typing as the case may be) supporting this. Read carefully her self-justification for her adultery. Ten freaking years later she still blames outside forces for her � wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life.� No wonder this abused BH is not over her adultery!


The main MB point left out of this entire letter is the adulteress is still not meeting his ENs, SF apparently in particular. According to MB that is grounds for D right there. The BH should have been advised to get a D right then and there and to make sure the adulteress gets absolutely nothing in the settlement, including no custody of any children.


But you asked!


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
But you asked!

Thank you.
I'm pleased you still take the time to read any of my posts.

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Random.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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Since my recovery thread is about resentment, I shall chime in here.

I remember reading this article a long time ago, and thinking to myself that it was a little hard on the BS. There isn't a lot of explanation as to what type of recovery work has been done, what type of just compensation has been made. I can understand how, if an A is swept under the rug and no recovery work is made, or if no just compensation is made, you never get beyond it and it continues to resurface.

In my sitch, I did brow beat for awhile. I did this not because I wanted to hurt my WH, but because I wanted him to 'get it' and understand the pain and devastation he had caused. Adultry unfortunately is all around us, we hear about it every day on talk shows, in papers...we are almost desensitized to what it actually MEANS. Until, it strikes our life. Then we know exactly what it means. A loss of great proportion, a devastation to the very ground you stand on. I felt that my WH thought of it as painful, yes, but in a desensitized 'no big deal' kindof way. I could not rest until I made sure he understood this, because if he thought it 'no big deal' then would he do it again?

I really think for me, bringing my very (how shall I say this) egocentrical husband, who thought himself above the law so to speak, who felt he was OWED more in life than the next guy, who felt that he was OWED these indescretions because he was great and deserved more than me, bringing him down to his knees was the only way to bring him back up again, as a humble and remorseful FWS. I suspect this is against many MB principles, but in my case it worked. He does claim now that had I just discussed the A, then never brought it up again, and not continued to express to him the pain it has caused, he would never have been able to make this transformation.

That's just my experience.

That being said, I do have a friend who's H continues to bring up past indescretions, and I use that term loosely. I mean things that happened 20 yrs ago when she was 16 and they were in HS, like she 'went to see a male friend in the hospital.' She is not wayward in ANY sense of the word and hasn't been, he on the other hand is IMO. So I think he uses these past elements in his favor to manipulate conversations, and even to take the spotlight off of his own behavior. In this case it is very abusive. Perhaps in my case it was too, IDK.

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Aphelion,

You know that Dr. Harley openly confesses that he is harder on husbands than on wives, right? And that there are reasons for that?

Yes, there is "gender bias," because men and women are different. I think Dr. Harley has gotten clearer about that in recent years, just judging by comparing some of his older writings to some of his more recent comments.

It's good that he's researching, continuing to learn, and continuing to share the results.

I can tell you for a fact that Dr. H is much harder on me than on my wife, and also tell you for a fact that it is worth it. I have much, much more capacity to be the "pump primer" when we have empty love banks than she does, and I'm grateful for all my coaches who have helped me to do more than I thought was possible so that I can have a better marriage!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by unwritten
There isn't a lot of explanation as to what type of recovery work has been done, what type of just compensation has been made. I can understand how, if an A is swept under the rug and no recovery work is made, or if no just compensation is made, you never get beyond it and it continues to resurface.

Very good observation.

Quote
In my sitch, I did brow beat for awhile.

10 years after the A stopped?
Naw........

Quote
bringing him down to his knees was the only way to bring him back up again, as a humble and remorseful FWS.

OK smile
Thanks for sharing.




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Originally Posted by markos
It's good that he's researching, continuing to learn, and continuing to share the results.

We all continue to learn, thankfully.

I've learned that I get to choose what sort of person/wife I am today.
I can choose to be loving and "forgetful" when it is kind to be so.
I can choose to be happily married.
In fact, I can choose not to feel resentment on a day-to-day basis.
I can also choose to leave/change any situation that does not allow me to be fulfilled, happy, or open to grace of God.

Recently I've been reading many Corrie Ten Boom quotes. Amazingly spiritual woman.

It's a beautiful thing this recovery from a very long illness. I've gained so much perspective about myself and my powers of attitude. pray

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Not 10 years, no. About a year and a half. I would still probably be brow beating if I didn't think he 'got it' or had transformed his attitude. Actually, about the time of the transformation I was at the point where I just wanted to go, so I guess ten years is as much a punishment to the BS as it is to the WS, or more.



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It is too soon for me to comment, I think, on this. I think I have done VERY well on avoiding any love busters and bringing the A. I hope that I will not using it as a weapon with my H 10 years from now

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Incidentally, Aphelion, I can think of THREE former male adulters who benefited from this principle of Dr. Harley's, just in the last year on this site. It does go both ways, to some extent, although I'm not sure Dr. H recommends a husband ever take the "Listen, Buster" approach.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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What I have noticed is that resentment occurs when we get somewhat lazy about scheduling and executing our UA time properly. Then we might lose this intimacy which actually takes care of fond memories and leaves no room for bad ones. Not enough UA time somehow brings back those bad memories, starts to focus on "what you did to me", you feel uncared for and that is not easy to overcome. The key is proper UA time.

That way, forgot to add, resentment itself can be a real burden and punishment for a BS, really.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
I remember reading this article a long time ago, and thinking to myself that it was a little hard on the BS. There isn't a lot of explanation as to what type of recovery work has been done, what type of just compensation has been made. I can understand how, if an A is swept under the rug and no recovery work is made, or if no just compensation is made, you never get beyond it and it continues to resurface.

Agreed. The letter/article is too vague and also I am always leery if the source is the F(?) WS...is he/she really being objective? There's not enough info to tell what the story is. However, if the BH simply can't live with the A (whatever his reasons are) then he should divorce. There are consequences to staying and to leaving...pick your poison. Same goes for a BW.


BW - me
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2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




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We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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I was flame on/flame off for the first year. My last flameout was while we were on a trip to a little resort in the next state over just past the time that OM had moved out of town.

After that, I simply made a promise to myself that I would never again let resentful thoughts drag me into ignition again.

I just push those negative thoughts back... but I have recently questioned it.

2 weeks ago, my best friend told me he is in end-stage renal failure and is beginning dialysis. NGB was more effected by it than I was. I felt... nothing.

I don't know. I'm rambling. It just feels like to contain things I have turned off my capacity to hurt... it feels weird.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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At what point does the PORA come into play?

There are times I get overwhelmed by the entire situation (6 mo�s into R) and my mood can shift at the drop of a dime. Depression, sadness, resentment and anger seem to be right at the surface ready to explode at any time. Keeping them at bay is a challenge at times.

To clairfy, just compensation has been made. She is making great effort to meet my EN and to make me feel safe. Fully incorporated MB principles into our lives.

I am not a good poker player. If I am happy you know it, if I am sad you know it. FWW picks up on this and says �hey are you okay, what is going on?�.

Should we just respond, �hey I am just having a moment, I will be okay�. Or using PORA should we share that �yes, I am in pain right now as a wave of emotions just swept over me reflecting on the entire situation. The reality of your betrayal is very painful at this moment�

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Once again I am reminded at how important UA time is to this issue.

H and I have been working hard on logistical things the last week. We had been working so hard to meet our UA time we blew everything else off for awhile, until things started to pile up to the point where they HAD to get done. Such as booking hotel rooms for an upcoming vacation, projects around the house, etc.

In an effort to commit to getting those things off our plate we instead blew off UA time. Last night, guess what? I started thinking about the A right in the middle of some great SF. (Come on I'm not giving everything up for logistics!) That hasn't happened for a long time. It quite ruined the moment for me. Guess I just felt disconnected due to the lack of UA time and that gave the A and its resentment counterpart the opportunity to sneak up on me.

UA time/need meeting is essential at warding off resentment. When you are happy and connected it is MUCH more difficult to be unhappy and resentful at the same time.


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I was flame on/flame off for the first year. My last flameout was while we were on a trip to a little resort in the next state over just past the time that OM had moved out of town.

After that, I simply made a promise to myself that I would never again let resentful thoughts drag me into ignition again.

I just push those negative thoughts back... but I have recently questioned it.

2 weeks ago, my best friend told me he is in end-stage renal failure and is beginning dialysis. NGB was more effected by it than I was. I felt... nothing.

I don't know. I'm rambling. It just feels like to contain things I have turned off my capacity to hurt... it feels weird.

You know, HHH, I can relate to this. Yesterday I literally had to pull into a parking lot because a wave of grief hit me and I started bawling over something I hadn't let myself feel: something I should have grieved over long ago... It was weird. At that moment I realized how much I have bottled up, just to keep myself from letting negatives take control.

It's good that we don't LB our spouses due to hurt and resentment, but it's important to get that stuff out. It's people that bottle everything up that end up hurting their own health, ya know?

Personally, I never flamed at my FWH - not even once that I can recall. So, if I have, it has been extremely minor.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
At what point does the PORA come into play?

There are times I get overwhelmed by the entire situation (6 mo�s into R) and my mood can shift at the drop of a dime. Depression, sadness, resentment and anger seem to be right at the surface ready to explode at any time. Keeping them at bay is a challenge at times.

To clairfy, just compensation has been made. She is making great effort to meet my EN and to make me feel safe. Fully incorporated MB principles into our lives.

I am not a good poker player. If I am happy you know it, if I am sad you know it. FWW picks up on this and says �hey are you okay, what is going on?�.

Should we just respond, �hey I am just having a moment, I will be okay�. Or using PORA should we share that �yes, I am in pain right now as a wave of emotions just swept over me reflecting on the entire situation. The reality of your betrayal is very painful at this moment�

20 - at 6 months you are still VERY early into recovery. It is normal to have those emotions still under the surface. I remember going through it and being told that it is typical, esp. at the 6 months and year mark, to have bursts of anger pop up.

Early in recovery you are busy working things out; hysterical bonding can occur even - where you are hurt, but just happy to be back together. As we go through the stages of grief and life settles back in, flashes of the betrayal hit us and we're mad that we had to go through such pain, even if we are learning great lessons from it.

POJA is a crucial part of the recovery process! Although, you said PORA twice - so I'm not sure if you're speaking of the same thing. Are you talking about radical honesty or about joint agreement?

Keep in mind that you do need to be honest but you also want to keep the past in the past: that means keeping talk of the A out of your marriage, including triggers. I didn't quite understand this either; had a whole discussion about it on my thread.

Your first example is much closer to what you would want to say...you tell your wife that you are having a rough moment and also, let her know exactly what you need from her to help you through it. That could be anything from a hug, a reassurance of her love and commitment...holding your hand... whatever. You DON'T mention the "betrayal" stuff. That would be a lovebuster and reminder of the A for both you and her. (Yes, I realize when you are triggering you are already reminded of the A, but it doesn't do you any good to dwell on it. Trust me.)


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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