My husband and I have been married almost 28 years. Things have not been good between us for a long time...I would say at least 5 years although he would say longer. 3 years ago for our 25th anniversary I tried to get him to take a trip with me but he wouldn't. On our anniversary I had a complete emotional breakdown and poured out my heart to him about how unhappy I was with many things in life. We went to a marriage counselor once and both hated it...slowly we slipped back into our routine of unhappiness. That same year I discovered that he was involved in an emotional affair that had been going on for a year or two. He ended it. Things were better between us, but slowly we slipped back into our old ways. Eventually he told me he loves me but is no longer in love with me. About a year ago we went to Florida with 2 of our kids. We walked on the beach every day but there was just no romance between us although I would have liked it. He says he can't help it...this past fall he began talking about divorce so I began snooping again. I found out that he had a strong interest in someone else but I cannot confirm that there was an actual affair. I confronted him (not telling him I know who it is) He denied it. He really has not had any interest in working on our marriage. I have been trying to improve things but I feel really discouraged. We have continued to have a pretty good sexual relationship, but there is definitely a lack of affection--he never kisses me on the lips or hugs me unless I initiate. I know he is still trying to keep this relationship with the latest "interest" alive, although it appears she has stopped responding in the way he wants. I feel like I just don't know where to go from here. I don't want to talk to him about it because I just get my feelings hurt--I don't want to hear him say he's not "in love" with me and doesn't see a future for us. Let me add that he is a very kind, generous man who would do anything for me. I know he cares about me but I want more! Any advice?

Welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry it is under these circumstances. But, you are in the right place.

Please read:
Start Here First
Post your questions on your thread, and many of the members volunteering their time will be along to help.

Then, you probably want to order the book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley. Get the new updated version. You can order it for Kindle or read it on a computer, or you can get the print version.

I guess I feel somewhat responsible for what he did because I was not being the wife he needed. We had 4 children in 6 years and I devoted a lot of my time and energy to them...probably truly neglecting him.
With this last person he was interested in I found a love poem that he wrote about her. Idk if he gave it to her or not. I believe she broke things off with him...we had a few conversations about us where he ended up crying (I now think because he was sad about losing her). Can you believe I felt sorry for him?
Do I need counseling to figure out why I tolerate his behavior? I can't figure out why I feel like I have to protect him when he has done nothing to protect me, our marriage or our family.

Ok...I am feeling like I really have to add this part...I also had an emotional affair. About a year ago I was feeling so unloved that I contacted an old high school boyfriend who had been really in love with me. We had been in touch off and on over the years, but this time it took hold. He began to tell me all of the things I didn't hear from my husband. I tried to keep it at friends but we did meet once when I went on a business trip and we had sex. I kept telling myself that our marriage vows were already broken. I do continue to talk to him...he has helped me through so much.
We are really messed up, huh?

Have you read the Start Here First link? Have you read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts? Have you started reading Surviving an Affair yet?

Articles about opposite-sex friends:
Are "friends" a risk to your marriage?
The risk of opposite-sex friends in your marriage

Both of you do not have good boundaries in place. You can change this by learning what EP's are, and adhering to them. If you are still talking to the OM (other man) that you had an EA with, then you are still having an EA. Does your H know about your EA yet?

Hi ljmom, welcome to Marriage Builders. The most glaring problem in your marriage is a lack of honesty and a long pattern of enabling. For example, it seems you have tolerated his affairs, rather than taking steps to end them. Sweeping the problems under the rug has been a huge mistake.

I would take another approach, starting with radical honesty. You need to tell your husband about your affair and tell him you know about his affair. You should both end contact with your affair partners immediately by sending them a no contact letter.

Please read starting here:

And then pick up the book Surviving an Affair. In the meantime, you can follow these guidelines:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

My husband knows I talk to him but thinks we are just friends. He does not know I met up with the OM. I have actually joked with my H that he would like it if the OM "took me off his (my H's) hands"

Did you read my post? This is not an "EA," it is a physical affair and your husband should be told the truth. All the facts should be put on the table.

Totally missed that part. Um, yeah. You need to go tell your H. All of it. Now.

I have not tolerated his affairs...the first time he ended it immediately. As for the most recent interest I don't know if it actually was an affair.

I have read the things mentioned and have just started "surviving an affair"

You posted this above:

Yes, I don't want him to know I know who it is this time because I am still trying to get proof of what's going on. If he knows I know he will just hide it better.

My suggestion would be to get it all out on the table and put an end to it. There is nothing to wait for. Tell him about your affair and tell him to cut off contact with this woman.

You can change this by learning what EP's are, and adhering to them.




What is an EP?

[quote=MelodyLane] to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____




What is an OP?

An OP is "other person." Abbreviations are here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1984040#Post1984040

I don't see EP in the abbreviatins. What does it stand for?

extraordinary precautions

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affar

Also, here is a good thread on Extraordinary Precautions
Extraordinary Precautions

LJMOM,

Having a revenge affair does not cancel out the pain, two affairs = double the pain.

The sad part is that your WHs horrible behavior caused you to become just like him.

But the good news is that you can come clean to your BH and have a good marriage based on honesty if you both want to work on it.

Do the right thing and tell the OMW, other mans wife, too.

The fact that you kept this OM in your life for so long did not help your marriage through the years.

Did you tell the OWHs of your WHs OW what happened?

God Bless
Gamma

This is all so new to me. When I discovered his first affair 2 1/2 years ago I left it to him to break it off and I was sure he did. I did not get involved as it was someone he works with and his position is appointed by the mayor--I did not want to risk his job or elicit any type of retribution by that woman. She was not married. For the past 4 months since I discovered he was interested in another woman (I have no clue as to the extent of their involvement) I had been following Mort Fertel and Lee Baucom's "save the marriage" plans. So, no, I have not done any of the above.

Mort Fertel and Lee Baucom do not have the same expertise and track record at saving marriages that Dr. Harley has. Dr. Harley knows his stuff and he saves marriages.

Read Surviving an Affair and apply the instruction it in. Drop those other guys because they won't help you save your marriage. Let me go hunt down information for you about Mort Fertel.

That is a huge reason why you have never recovered your marriage. Mort Fertel has absolutely no idea how to save a marriage after an affair. The advice he gives is sure to invite more affairs. As you have learned the hard way.

We can help you save your marriage if you will follow these steps.

A lot of marriage counselors tell you to just "forgive" your spouse and let it go. I really appreciated reading about Just Compensation from Dr. Harley - that affairs are so painful that a spouse who has had an affair must compensate their spouse.

In addition to EP's, you will need to be honest to your H about your affair. When do you plan on telling your H about your affair? And, when are you going to tell the Other Woman's H about your H's affair?

I guess i was drawn to those 2 because they say they can help even if your spouse is not working with you. My H has made it clear to me that he is not "in love" with me, does not believe that anyone married a long time is happy and does not believe that you can rebuild love. When i have asked him to work on our marriage he has not been interested...although now I see that the last time we had that discussion he was sill hoping to continue a relationship with someone else.

Unfortunately, their tactics won't work because they do nothing about the existing affair. It is the affair that is causing the breach and unless that is addressed and killed, nothing else will work.

Anyway, you are here now and hopefully we can help you save your marriage. Have you had that honest discussion with your husband yet?

No...things are good between us right now. I don't want to rock the boat.
And I want to have a little more knowledge of Dr. Harley's ideas before I do anything rash.

No, things are not "good between you." That is a lie and an illusion. You can't lie your way to a great marriage.

I agree you should not do anything rash. What you should do IMMEDIATELY is tell your husband the full truth. We are not moving forward here until you take that step. The lying has to stop. Your affair has to stop.

That is the first step. We don't go to the next steps until the first step is completed.

Let us know when you have completed this step so we can go to the next steps.

Well then, you are also a dishonest foggy wayward who is no better than your husband and your marriage won't recover.

What Mel is saying is exactly what you will hear Dr. Harley say.

You must tell your husband about your affair.

As far as I am concerned, you are a garden variety adulterer who is just protecting her sleazy affair. Nothing will change until that stops.

Rocking a sinking boat will not endanger anything.
And there is nothing rash in being honest.

Excuses.

Have you confessed yet?

.

Omg....this is true...I have never seen it this way before. Thank you. I just told the OM that I cannot talk to him anymore. It will take some courage to tell my H. I am afraid to do it.

So true...it is sinking. I am kidding myself to believe otherwise.

When people say sinking they forget that they still have the gunwales above the water. However all the bilge pumps will not work if you do not use them. You can not find a bilge pump better then a "Harley". Though useless if not used.

Have you confessed yet?

ljmom24,

This really struck me.

I contacted an old high school boyfriend who had been really in love with me. We had been in touch off and on over the years, but this time it took hold.

I wonder if you always on some level had the OM in your backup plan and never been fully invested yourself emotionally in the marriage.

Did your BH ever object to your continued contact with the OM or was it kept a secret. Secrets are never good for a marriage and allow affairs to happen.

God Bless
Gamma

I told him.

I'm glad you were honest with your H about your affair. What did he say?

Not much..asked a lot of questions...he seemed surprised but not angry..I think because of his past affair. We talked a little about Dr Harleys ideas but he doesn't believe it will work...

Ypu really need to get the book Surviving an Affair by Dr Willard Harley.
At this point, you should write a No Contact letter to your affair partner and shown it to your husband. The letter should be mailed certified mail, return receipt.

When your husband asks about the letter, explain that you are following the plan of a clinical psychologist and national marriage expert.

This is what the letter should look like:

I have already ended all contact with him. He lives far away so I did tell him those things and then completely removed him from my contacts and blocked him from the chat we used.

The No Contact letter should be written and shown to your husband.

Have you changed all your contact information? Sent the NC letter?

Honestly, you should not even have this chat account anymore. Disable the account or allow your H to change the passwords so you don't have access. You need to remove all these types of temptations from yourself, you've already proven you lack proper boundaries. Anything less would leave you at extreme risk to continue the A or restart a new one.

Remember A's don't happen because of bad people, they happen because people have poor boundaries. Chat/social media is an invitation to have an affair and they must be removed from your life.

Does he even want to save the marriage?

Since it was a long distance relationship, anything on the computer--chat, skype, etc.--should be permanently removed as they will be a trigger for your and your husband.

Get into Plan A and give it your best efforts. Here you go:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

and from Pepperband:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

This is a good question. He tells me he cares for me more than anyone else in the world but he's not in love with me anymore. He's very cynical about love..doesn't believe in long-term marital happiness. Doesn't want to work on the marriage because it seems "fake"

Did you write the NC letter and shown it to your husband?

No...he is not asking for anything like that...do I still need to do it? I told him it was over and he believed me.

It will show him how serious you are.

Have you read this?
What is Just Compensation?

Also this.
Extraordinary Precautions-Revised SAA

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

When do we start adressing his inappropriate relationships with other women?

Have you written the No Contact letter and shown it to him?

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of ljmom24's question
Segment #2
Segment #3

My H and I have been struggling in our marriage for at least the last 5 years. I found MB a few months back and have been trying to get him to do the online program with me. The problem is, he just doesn't buy it. He doesn't believe the feeling of love can be created--he thinks it will be contrived. And he thinks even if the feelings do come back, they will not last. His main reason for being resistant is that he feels like he has hurt and disappointed me so much that if this doesn't work it will just be one more way that he has disappointed me. He is also concerned that he will resent being forced to do it.

He has been talking about separation recently--I told him that I see separation as negative and destructive and I am fairly sure it will lead to divorce. I also said I see MB as positive and constructive.

I am at whits end as to how to further encourage him to try MB--I can't see that things could be any worse in a year or two and I believe they will be better.

Has anyone been in my shoes with a reluctant spouse? Any advice to offer?

Please stick with your original thread and alias here so that posters are not confused. Our TOS stipulate that you may not create new aliases. Thank you

What EPs have you both put in place?

Have you confirmed that he isn't having an affair?

I have confirmed that he is not having an affair. No specific EPs...as I said I am having trouble getting him to participate.

That's my concern.

Why would he want to move out because he feels like he is letting you down? Why wouldn't he want to work on the marriage?

That's what I keep asking him...it is a vicious circle of a conversation...he is afraid to commit to trying because he is afraid of failure. I say if we fail then we at least know we tried everything. Sometimes I feel like he is more afraid of succeeding for some reason...I just don't get it.

How did you rule out an affair? You checked his phone records? You have access to all his email? All his devices remain open?

Usually when a spouse wants to separate "to think, or find themselves" is a red flag for a SSL (secret second life).

I do understand the red flags and 6 months ago he was thinking of leaving for that reason. But at this very moment I am sure there is no one else. I do have access to his email and I can check his whereabouts using his iphone (he does not know this)

I guess I had implemented a plan A of sorts in November (before I found MB) He commented recently that my kindness has really increased his "caring" for me and has kept him around I guess.

Has he ever listened to the radio show? The Harleys explain it so well.

Have you ever thought about asking him to call into the show with you?

Wow! My WH must have borrowed your WH's playbook. My WH said every one of these things during the A. Surprising, no?

I really don't want to spend my time debating whether he is in an affair right now...I know he is not...but I also know at this point there is nothing to keep it from happening again. That is why I am desperately trying to get him on board to save our marriage.

You had been advised to send a NC letter to OM that your husband could read and agree for you to send. This may be an act on your part that could help persuade your husband to do some marriage investing on his end. You seriously taking EPs to heart for your behavior shows you "put your money where your mouth is." As you are doing your part, ask him if he could do some things for you, and list out EPs you need. If he says he can't do that, then you need to separate/plan B. This, after you've written and sent your no contact letter that is acceptable to your husband.

List what your EPs are, and his.

When did you write the NC Letter?

He honestly doesn't care about NC with the OM. I don't think that would mean anything to him.

Plan B may be what I need but I won't leave my house--I still have a daughter at home. Would I ask him to leave?

This was posted to you 2 months ago...

It may not mean anything to him; however, Dr. Harley's program is not a buffet type program where you pick and choose what you will follow.

If you seriously want to save your marriage, you need to follow the program. It may motivate him to jump on board.

Did you write this and show him?

It almost seems like you want to end your marriage?

Why do you say this? I am asking for help to get him on board.

Because you want to separate so fast.

Dr. Harley agrees that women should only be in Plan A for 2-3 weeks and then enter Plan B, but you said you're confident there is no affair, despite his poor boundaries around women.

You had an affair 4 years ago and he brings it up all the time.

When we ask you about EPs and the NC Letter you won't answer and avoid the work.

Then you talk about separating. Recovering a marriage from an Affair is hard work.

Will your BH post here?
Will you write Dr. Harley?

You have me confused with someone else.

Sorry it wasn't four years ago it was on and off throughout your marriage.


Did you ever write the NC letter to your OM? Was it exposed? Is OM married?

Was the OM married? Who did you expose your affair to?

Have you been tested for STD/I?

Your WH has had many affairs, but you say he isn't having an affair now. How have you confirmed this?

What EPs have you both been in place?

When is the last time you talked to OM? Are you still talking to him?

Have you changed all your contact information?

These are all questions that have been asked and you either won't answer or ignore the questions.

We can't help you if you aren't honest with us.

What have you done since your call with Dr. Harley?

Stopped talking to him but did not write NC. He is married...I apologized to his wife and promised not to talk to him anymore.

Did not expose.

He has not had many affairs. One EA 5 years ago and last year another one--he did admit to kissing her--I know you all think I'm an idiot for believing that he didn't sleep with her, but I do believe him.

What about all my other questions?

In addition to all my other questions.

Did you do what Dr. Harley recommended in your call? How much UA time are you getting?

OM is married. I did apologize to his wife and tell her I would not communicate with him anymore.

Did not expose my affair to anyone except husband.

Have not been tested for STDs.

No EPs for H. For me I blocked him on chat we used. Deleted that email account.

Did I miss any questions?

As for UA time...definitely not 15 hours/week. Have tried to increase it, but haven't been very successful.

LolaLove,


You wroteOM is married. I did apologize to his wife and tell her I would not communicate with him anymore.

But did you tell OMW that OM had sex with you? You should at least do her that kindness.

God Bless
Gamma

A few missed questions.
Your WH has had many affairs, but you say he isn't having an affair now. How have you confirmed this?


When is the last time you talked to OM? Are you still talking to him?

Have you changed all your contact information?

Why won't your husband give a list of EPs?

Did he write a NC Letter to his OW? Were any of his affairs exposed?

Have you told your kids about both of your affairs?

The most recent ea ended several month ago but he just recently finally resigned from a board that he was on with her. Sometimes it's really difficult to explain things to you all--things don't always seem as black and white from my end.

As for me I have not spoken to om for months--I have no desire or interest to do so. Got rid of means used to chat but still have my phone number--he has not tried to call and I would not answer-- I am truly disgusted with myself for what I did.

I believe husband won't do nc or ep's because he thinks his involvement with her had nothing to do with where we stand in our marriage and it is insignifcant in the big picture where he "doesn't have feelings for me". Its ridiculous I know-- I can't even explain to you how he feels but sometimes he tells me he thinks he is "sick" because he is so cynical about long-term relationships. He doesn't believe anyone is happy who has been married a long time.

We have not told our kids.

Oh and there has been no exposure--no affairs were active when I found mb.

Dr. Harley says to expose even if it's been years after the affair was found out. I recommend you to expose both of your(yours and your WH's) affairs.

It is an affair that your WH had. He kissed her.

What about getting your UA time up like Dr. Harley recommends?