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Hello everyone, thank you in advance for your help, this is my first time posting on this board. My wife, MrsLasVegas, has also joined this forum and is following this thread.

My wife and I are reading Surviving an Affair and have gotten a lot of good information from it. We have made it to chapter 12 so far and we are starting to hit some bumps, although we've made progress as well.

The main issue we are having relates to the list my wife made of her top 5 emotional needs. #1 happens to be recreational companionship. She has been cycling rigorously for about 4 months now and can now ride 70 miles in a single session - really impressive to me smile

My wife has a much higher than typical need for very strenuous physical activity. We're talking several hours of intense cardio workout at least a couple times per week. If she doesn't get this amount of activity she starts to feel depressed and withdrawn and this feeling progresses until she gets the exercise she needs. She tells me exercise helps her "get the crazy out." And we have found that it truly does, she comes back from exercise balanced and happy, completely improved on an emotional level.

We have a small business and we work together every day, I work full time M-F and she works part time M-F. She spends some of her free time cycling during the week. She had been riding with a male cycling coach for the past couple months to get her ready for a century (100 mile organized ride).

I feel that her cycling coach was able to meet her #1 emotional need very easily and there soon developed a friendship and emotional attachment which was edging very close to an emotional affair, which she has since broken off 100%, willingly, in accordance with the book.

I am not nearly as physically active as my wife. I have been jogging / walking every day for the past 2-3 months and that is going well. I also ride with her and can do about 25 miles, although at a much slower pace than my wife. I am not in terrible shape and she does find me attractive. My physique in certainly improving rapidly.

The way I read the book I feel like I should (and I am willing to try) to meet this emotional need by becoming her cycling companion. However, the truth is I will never have the internal drive for this strenuous activity that she does, and she knows that. I don't think she really wants me to fill this role because she knows that I'm not 100% into it like she is.

My wife would like to keep riding a couple times during the week and spend the weekends doing recreational activities that we both enjoy. I fully support her cycling and think it is a great outlet for her. I think that she will be able to cycle during the week and get a lot of enjoyment out of it, even if I am not there with her. And I personally have no problem with her riding by herself, I just fear that it could pave the way for another relationship down the road.

My concern, is that while she may enjoy cycling alone, she prefers to ride with someone, and that when she does ride with someone, a huge emotional need is met, which is part of the reason a bond was formed so quickly with her coach. Behind me cycling truly is the thing that makes her happiest right now.

She has expressed interest in riding with groups of people, which means other men / women. There are some women-only groups, but very hard to find and harder to be compatible with.

We're discussed the issue to death and haven't come up with a good solution. The idea that we should find recreational activities that we can do together means she would have to give up the very top most enjoyable activity in her life right now - and I don't want to be the reason for her to give that up.

I am fully willing to change my work schedule and try to become as active as she is on the bike, but I think we both know that I'll never be able to keep up and that my heart won't be fully in it.

Right now her perspective is that the book is to rigid on this issue, that she should not have to give up cycling (or other strenuous physical activity) in favor of something that we can both do. I tend to agree with her on this, but I fear that by ignoring this and doing her most favorite activity in the world alone, that I am not meeting an extremely important emotional need and we'll have a harder time getting back on-track.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, stories, perspective on this.

Rob

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Welcome, Mr. Vegas!

Did your wife write a No Contact Letter to the coach? Did you mail it?

Have all forms of communication been changed (Facebook, cell phone, etc)?

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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
Hello everyone, thank you in advance for your help, this is my first time posting on this board. My wife, MrsLasVegas, has also joined this forum and is following this thread.

My wife and I are reading Surviving an Affair and have gotten a lot of good information from it. We have made it to chapter 12 so far and we are starting to hit some bumps, although we've made progress as well.

The main issue we are having relates to the list my wife made of her top 5 emotional needs. #1 happens to be recreational companionship. She has been cycling rigorously for about 4 months now and can now ride 70 miles in a single session - really impressive to me smile

My wife has a much higher than typical need for very strenuous physical activity. We're talking several hours of intense cardio workout at least a couple times per week. If she doesn't get this amount of activity she starts to feel depressed and withdrawn and this feeling progresses until she gets the exercise she needs. She tells me exercise helps her "get the crazy out." And we have found that it truly does, she comes back from exercise balanced and happy, completely improved on an emotional level.

We have a small business and we work together every day, I work full time M-F and she works part time M-F. She spends some of her free time cycling during the week. She had been riding with a male cycling coach for the past couple months to get her ready for a century (100 mile organized ride).

I feel that her cycling coach was able to meet her #1 emotional need very easily and there soon developed a friendship and emotional attachment which was edging very close to an emotional affair, which she has since broken off 100%, willingly, in accordance with the book.

I am not nearly as physically active as my wife. I have been jogging / walking every day for the past 2-3 months and that is going well. I also ride with her and can do about 25 miles, although at a much slower pace than my wife. I am not in terrible shape and she does find me attractive. My physique in certainly improving rapidly.

The way I read the book I feel like I should (and I am willing to try) to meet this emotional need by becoming her cycling companion. However, the truth is I will never have the internal drive for this strenuous activity that she does, and she knows that. I don't think she really wants me to fill this role because she knows that I'm not 100% into it like she is.

My wife would like to keep riding a couple times during the week and spend the weekends doing recreational activities that we both enjoy. I fully support her cycling and think it is a great outlet for her. I think that she will be able to cycle during the week and get a lot of enjoyment out of it, even if I am not there with her. And I personally have no problem with her riding by herself, I just fear that it could pave the way for another relationship down the road.

My concern, is that while she may enjoy cycling alone, she prefers to ride with someone, and that when she does ride with someone, a huge emotional need is met, which is part of the reason a bond was formed so quickly with her coach. Behind me cycling truly is the thing that makes her happiest right now.

She has expressed interest in riding with groups of people, which means other men / women. There are some women-only groups, but very hard to find and harder to be compatible with.

We're discussed the issue to death and haven't come up with a good solution. The idea that we should find recreational activities that we can do together means she would have to give up the very top most enjoyable activity in her life right now - and I don't want to be the reason for her to give that up.

I am fully willing to change my work schedule and try to become as active as she is on the bike, but I think we both know that I'll never be able to keep up and that my heart won't be fully in it.

Right now her perspective is that the book is to rigid on this issue, that she should not have to give up cycling (or other strenuous physical activity) in favor of something that we can both do. I tend to agree with her on this, but I fear that by ignoring this and doing her most favorite activity in the world alone, that I am not meeting an extremely important emotional need and we'll have a harder time getting back on-track.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, stories, perspective on this.

Rob
Welcome to MB.

Is your wife having an affair with her cycling coach?


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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
Right now her perspective is that the book is to rigid on this issue, that she should not have to give up cycling (or other strenuous physical activity) in favor of something that we can both do.

Dr. Harley is very clear that even the slightest deviation from his Program can result in failure.

You need to find activities you both enjoy because that is where the highest amount of love bank units are deposited. She wants others to be with her during her most enjoyable time (cycling) and they will be making the deposits, not you.

In marriage, we are together and meeting each others needs.

We have seen several affairs on this forum from people jogging, cycling, etc together.

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Since you both are reading SAA together, i presume that one of you had a recent previous affair and it seems like it was your wife that had it.

Tell the board how that occurred and ended and the EP.s that were put in place.

It doesn't seem as if she was adhering to the most obvious glaring one, about not having any OS friendships due to her continued contact with her male cycling partner.

The POJA states that she should not go cycling at all if you are not Enthusiastically in agreement with her doing so, especially with OS riders.

Her resentment for not being able to do so is Type B resentment, which is less volatile and harmful than Type A resentment, which you most likely would have if she partakes in that activity regardless of your feelings.

You need to put her cycling on hold until the two of you POJA an enthusiastic solution or alternative.

LTL

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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
She had been riding with a male cycling coach for the past couple months to get her ready for a century (100 mile organized ride).

I feel that her cycling coach was able to meet her #1 emotional need very easily and there soon developed a friendship and emotional attachment which was edging very close to an emotional affair, which she has since broken off 100%, willingly, in accordance with the book.
Hello and welcome to MB.

Please tell us how did you find out about the affair? Did your wife come to tell you first, or did you notice and bring it up to her?

Good for both of you for approaching this head on. You will find out that by working this program together, the two of you will have a more passionate marriage than ever before. smile

Has your wife sent her coach a NC letter? What precautions have the two of you put into place so that she will never see this person again?



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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Welcome, Mr. Vegas!

Did your wife write a No Contact Letter to the coach? Did you mail it?

Have all forms of communication been changed (Facebook, cell phone, etc)?


Prior to purchasing the book, I had used online resources on this site and others to figure out how to handle it. These resources were not as thorough as the book. A letter was emailed, I did read this letter and was satisfied with it, however, it wasn't as solid as Dr. Harley's letter. My wife wishes she had read Dr. Harley's letter example before sending her letter because she would have used something closer to that.

Facebook is complicated, closing her account is not an option, at least neither one of us can see a completely Facebook free life. Also, she manages our company Facebook profile, which requires her to have a personal account. We did the best we could do, we blocked the coach.

Same thing goes for the phone number, instead of changing the number we blocked his. We don't think him trying to contact her and vice versa is a major concern. Although, I'm sure you all may have a different opinion on this.

We've deleted all texts, contacts, and also she volunteered something that I hadn't fully understood, she uninstalled and stopped using an app on her phone that allows him to track her ride progress. Not live mind you, just to see where and how far/fast the ride was.

I am happy with the break of contact. I feel she is sincere about the no contact and understands it isn't good for our marriage.

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[/quote]
Welcome to MB.

Is your wife having an affair with her cycling coach?[/quote]

No, there is no current affair. A couple weeks ago there was what you might call an emotional affair, or maybe not. But whatever it was has been ended.

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I should mention that she is following this thread and will probably want to respond to questions as well. Please feel free to ask questions of MrsLasVegas.

I hope you all can understand that this is not a me vs. her thing, we are both seeking the advice of this forum for your help and thoughts.

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Originally Posted by LearnedTooLate
Since you both are reading SAA together, i presume that one of you had a recent previous affair and it seems like it was your wife that had it.

Tell the board how that occurred and ended and the EP.s that were put in place.

It doesn't seem as if she was adhering to the most obvious glaring one, about not having any OS friendships due to her continued contact with her male cycling partner.

The POJA states that she should not go cycling at all if you are not Enthusiastically in agreement with her doing so, especially with OS riders.

Her resentment for not being able to do so is Type B resentment, which is less volatile and harmful than Type A resentment, which you most likely would have if she partakes in that activity regardless of your feelings.

You need to put her cycling on hold until the two of you POJA an enthusiastic solution or alternative.

LTL


I may ask my wife to answer your question more thoroughly, but the cycling coach existed prior to us starting on this book. She disclosed the friendship to me, during discussion she revealed an emotional attachment. We then agreed for her to break things off, and finally we started reading the book.

So that's the general order in which things occurred.

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Welcome to MB. My advice is to first, answer the questions that others here have asked about the end of your wife's affair with the coach. If you have no evidence that contact between them by any and all means has ceased completely, then it is likely that the affair is continuing in some way. Contact between them might explain your wife's drive to continue cycling at a high level that leaves you out.

To deal with the issue of your wife's passion for this sport, I looked for an answer from Dr Harley, founder of the Marriage Builders' programme. People like me who have done the online accountability course have access to Dr Harley's private forum here, and we can see questions from other posters on the online course, and the answers from Dr Harley. Here is what he said to a poster in a similar situation. Her H had an affair while participating in his sport, and he was still determined to train in that sport at a high level. The sport was not one in which his wife could gain anything like his prowess, so that left a lot of time in which he trained at his activity alone, to the detriment of their marriage.

Here is Dr H's advice:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
The goal of becoming each other's favorite recreational companions is crucial in restoring your marriage. That would be true even if your husband had not developed an attraction to a woman that was part of his [sport - redacted] life. But since he did develop that attraction, it's even more imperative for him to stop that activity and find another that you can enjoy together. He should never see or talk to the other woman because it risks a rekindling of the relationship, and it is a terrible offense to you.

The goal of becoming each other's favorite recreational companions may require giving up current activities and starting from scratch. It was separate recreational activities that got your husband into trouble, and that's very often the case. When a husband and wife are together recreationally, the risk of infidelity is greatly reduced. I know how hard you are trying to keep up with your husband, and that may be the wrong approach to the problem. It may be more prudent for you both to think of activities that would enjoyable -- and possible -- for both of you.
From this it follows that you should not focus on training yourself up to your wife's level of cycling, which as you said, you are not likely to reach. The answer is that, in the interest of your marriage, she needs to give up cycling.

You said something in your first post to the effect that cycling is an emotional need for her. To describe it as such is to misunderstand the concept of "emotional needs". ENs are not essential needs without which we would wither, but things that a partner does that cause us to fall in love, and stay in love, with them.

Your wife's "need" for cycling is not an emotional need in the marital sense - cycling does not make her fall in love with you. The companionship that she enjoyed with her coach is the important factor; it was the companionship when she was doing this enjoyable activity that made her fall in love with him. Your wife needs to find a different activity that you can enjoy together, and the companionship involved in doing it together will maintain your love for each other - and the corollary of that is that neither of you should ever carry out recreational activities with other people of the opposite sex.

Your wife's "need" for cycling sounds comparable to an addiction, but it is not an emotional need.


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Another post to the same spouse as above, on the same issue:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
The more difficult it is for someone to abandon an activity that causes their spouse to be unhappy, the more likely it is to have been an addiction. In fact, I've sometimes defined an addiction as something that's keeping you from following the POJA. Logically, it makes no sense to continue in an activity that makes one spouse unhappy when alternative that make both spouses happy are available. But the quicker you find those alternatives the better. The resentment that comes from giving up something subsides when something else is found to be just as enjoyable.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
From this it follows that you should not focus on training yourself up to your wife's level of cycling, which as you said, you are not likely to reach. The answer is that, in the interest of your marriage, she needs to give up cycling.


Thank you for your perspective and the quote you provided. I think I want to come back to some of your other questions a little later, but regarding cycling I think I need to clarify something.

Cycling itself isn't the problem.

If it's not cycling it'll be marathons, triathlons, decathlons, you name it. So when you suggest she needs to give up cycling, you're really saying she needs to give up all forms of strenuous physical recreation. This is something that she needs in order to keep herself balanced and centered. Like I mentioned before, this exercise is something she needs, it can't just be switched off in favor of something less physical with me, long walks for example.

I agree with you that the cycling itself isn't an emotional need, it's just that the admiration and encouragement needs are met most effectively during this sort of activity.



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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
Thank you for your perspective and the quote you provided. I think I want to come back to some of your other questions a little later, but regarding cycling I think I need to clarify something.

Cycling itself isn't the problem.

If it's not cycling it'll be marathons, triathlons, decathlons, you name it. So when you suggest she needs to give up cycling, you're really saying she needs to give up all forms of strenuous physical recreation. This is something that she needs in order to keep herself balanced and centered. Like I mentioned before, this exercise is something she needs, it can't just be switched off in favor of something less physical with me, long walks for example.

I agree with you that the cycling itself isn't an emotional need, it's just that the admiration and encouragement needs are met most effectively during this sort of activity.
I want to point out that my answers were not "my perspective", but the answers given to an identical problem by Dr Harley, whose advice we strive to post on this forum. You are posting on the MB forum, which implies that you want advice that is as close as possible to the advice that Dr Harley would give if you wrote to him directly.

Well, there it is. There is no other MB advice available to you. What I quoted above is it.

In answer to the point about marathons, triathlons etc:

You are not seeing the wood for the trees by pointing out that the issue is not cycling. Dr Harley's answer covered any of the activities that you say your wife would substitute for cycling.

Your wife should not do ANY recreational activity that she cannot do with you. She should not replace cycling with anything that has the same detrimental effect on your recreational time and thus on your marriage.

You and your wife need to find a recreational activity that you can do together, that allows you to focus on each other. You should only do recreational activities together and you should never, ever do them with other people of the opposite sex.

It does not matter what activity you substitute for cycling; the advice from Dr H is the same. There really isn't anything to challenge or disagree with, if you want to save your marriage.


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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
If it's not cycling it'll be marathons, triathlons, decathlons, you name it. So when you suggest she needs to give up cycling, you're really saying she needs to give up all forms of strenuous physical recreation. This is something that she needs in order to keep herself balanced and centered. Like I mentioned before, this exercise is something she needs, it can't just be switched off in favor of something less physical with me, long walks for example.
You need to be much more creative about this than you are being at present.

Dr Harley's son Steve, who runs the telephone coaching service here, is a keen triathlete. However, her does not train for the events with other people; he trains with his wife. But while she cannot run long distance, she can and does cycle beside him while he runs. They are determined to protect their marriage and so they have sought out creative ways for them both to keep fit doing things they enjoy while being alone together.

If your wife took up running, you would probably be able to cycle at her running speed and distance.

If you and your wife want to save your marriage and avoid another affair, you need to sit down and brainstorm solutions to her exercise desires and your physical interests and limitations. Until you can come up with a solution that allows you to exercise together, she should not exercise alone out of the house.

She can buy a skipping rope and skip for an hour, and do press-ups etc, at home in your garden or basement, and you can do similar things at your level right alongside her, until you find something that you can do out of the home.

Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
I agree with you that the cycling itself isn't an emotional need, it's just that the admiration and encouragement needs are met most effectively during this sort of activity.
Which is precisely why she should not train with another man, even with a professional coach. A huge number of affairs take place between coaches and their clients. Personal training in all its forms is a breeding ground for affairs.


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I was given four free personal training sessions when I took out gym membership this year. They are worth a lot of money and would have helped my training, but I declined to take them because I could not fit in with the times of the one female personal trainer who was available. There are lots of perfectly nice young men that were available - young enough to be my son, so that should have made the boundaries clear, shouldn't it? - but this is personal training, where these lycra-clad men would be showing me their bodies, and watching and even touching mine as it firmed up and slimmed down (one would hope). I declined the free offer.

There was no chance of my training with a man, after being a member of MB. In fact, I do not go to the gym at all, except for one women-only session per week, when men are banned from the room. I go to girly classes like Zumba, Legs, Bums and Tums and aerobics, where the entire class is female and the trainer is also female. The gym is at my workplace, so I can fit in classes during a slightly long lunch break. I then make sure to get at least 15 hours' per week RC time with my H, walking, going on day trips in the car, and going to theatres, cinema, museums and art galleries and then for a meal or drink where we can talk about the activities. The cinema etc does not count for UA time, but the talking afterwards does.

I tried a Mixed Martial Arts class only once, and the male instructor demonstrated some of the holds using both men and women from the group. I left early and never went back.

After marriage, the only time that lycra and the opposite sex should mix is with your spouse. The mixture is too combustable to be tried with other OS people.


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Hello, everyone, this is the wife, sorry I'm so late. Thanks so much for all the feedback so far!

Okay, let me just jump in to answer some questions a little more in detail.

In terms of my coach:
We did create a very quick bond that formed into a friendship and perhaps given enough time it may have turned into an emotional and/or physical affair. I did enjoy the company cycling but he reminded me more of a brother than lover and there were clear boundaries that I set with him from the get-go. In any event though, I did break all contact, wrote him the letter, deleted texts, and all other steps that were outlined in the book. That was actually done prior to us beginning the program so we already had a good foundation in getting our marriage back on track once we dove into the book.

I fully take responsibility for the male coach. It was supposed to be a girls cycling group, but it just did not work out that way. Continuing with coaching is on me and I own that mistake. But, even without a coach, I would have continued to cycle to meet the physical endurance need that I crave.

In terms of cycling ... it's more than just cycling:
In addition to cycling, I practice Ashtanga which is an incredibly strenuous form of yoga. I generally do a ~2 hour practice 2-3 days a week (at home) as well as try to get in roughly 100 miles a week on the bike. This is the minimum amount of exercise that I need to be happy. Prior to cycling I was trail running 8-10 miles several days a week, prior to that I'd spend 3 hours at the gym 4 days a week, prior to that I was an awful, moody wife.

If I do not have these physical outlets I become withdrawn, moody and generally not a great person to be around. We have discovered over the years, though much trial and error, that the more strenuous exercise that I get, the happier I am, the more patient I am, the more enjoyable I am to be around. Our life is better when I get that massive amount of exercise.

I try to work in this exercise during the week as to maximize the "us" time we have available on the weekends. My H and I own a small company and I only work PT, so I have time during the week to "get the crazy out" so during the weekends we can spend quality time together doing the things we love to do together - sightseeing, day trips, lunches out with shopping, museums, parks, gardens, etc. There is no shortage of quality "us" time. The weekends are ours and we are and have always been committed to that.

I fully understand what the program asks of me and I actually loved the response of someone who mentioned the triathlon training that his wife does with him. I think that is sort of what we are looking for here. I want and need to continue with endurance athletics. I knew when I married my husband he was not into that and it was not a deal breaker for me; he has so many incredible attributes that I value and love that it not was not a big deal for him not to join me in that. But we have also always worked this endurance need of mine into our lives and now we have book telling me I have to stop. I'm not resistant to that, I get it and I agree with that concept, but I'm fearful of how our marriage will look if I don't get all the exercise that I need. It has not worked out well in the past.

Okay, other things I want to address as I re-read some comments:
I am totally on board with the no OS friends. No big deal, I enthusiastically agree and it has never been an issue for us. The coach thing was a one off as it was suppose to be a girls cycling group. In terms of group riding, I'm fine not seeking out another group to ride with. I do hope at some point I'll find a woman as nuts as me who wants to spend 5+ hours on the bike to chat with, but again I'm super happy doing it solo as I have in the past.

Please let me know if you have any more questions for me/us. This has been really helpful so far. Thanks!!


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Welcome to MB, and thank you for posting.

Your husband posted here because he was unhappy with the effect that your exercise pattern is having on your marriage. You have posted here to say why you need to exercise in the form and to the extent that you do. in doing so, you haven't addressed your H's concerns for the marriage at all. Your post was all about your needs.

Do you want your H to be happy in his marriage to you? If so, what do you intend to do about the source of his unhappiness?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 11
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Your wife should not do ANY recreational activity that she cannot do with you. She should not replace cycling with anything that has the same detrimental effect on your recreational time and thus on your marriage.


Question: Does the cycling even count as a recreational activity? If it's done on her own time and doesn't take away from our time together (I'm at work), and she does it alone, then does it simply count as exercise?

Thank you again for helping us understand this issue.

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Originally Posted by MrsLasVegas
But we have also always worked this endurance need of mine into our lives and now we have book telling me I have to stop.
The book didn't just intrude into your lives unasked. Your H was looking for a solution to his unhappiness following your emotional affair. The book has a solution to the problem, one that is focused on encouraging you to find ways to make both of you happy. The book encourages you never to be the source of each other's unhappiness.

You can blame your disquiet on the "book telling me I have to stop", but the problem is not the book. The problem is your exercise choices. Those choices are making your H unhappy.

You can ignore the book, but do you care about making your H happy? Do you have suggestions of your own to make this happen? Do you think your H should learn to quell his unhappiness under the threat that, if you give up the kind of exercise you are doing now, you will make his life miserable?

You probably did not mean it to sound this way, but there is a very unpleasant implied threat embedded in your post; "let me have my way on this and be grateful for the time we do spend together, because if you make me give up endurance exercise I will make your life hell, and you will rue the day".

You need to think in terms of win-win solutions to this problem, not win-lose ones. Your marriage is not a zero-sum game.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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