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Originally Posted by SugarCane
You didn't answer my question about having read the definitions of the concept of ENs, and the ENs themselves.


I'm sorry, that was an oversight. Yes, we have read the definitions and concepts and completed the worksheets to determine our EN's. We were obviously having trouble applying some of the principles which is why we reached out. Thanks for the links, it's nice to have it here to reference and refer to. That was very helpful. :-)

Last edited by MrsLasVegas; 04/23/14 06:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by MrsLasVegas
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So it seems like you need to figure out how to make your H your favorite RC and get 15-20 hours of UA.


I don't think that UA is a problem for us. We are actually getting to that chapter tonight, so maybe it is, I'll keep you posted. ;-)

We generally spend all weekend doing fun things together. Last weekend, in addition to reading the book together we spent several hours at a local garden getting inspiration for our own yard. Other weekends, we venture to the next town over for lunch, chatting and walking in the park. I feel like our UA time is good and we have added in more UA time each night once he comes home from work. Less TV, more chatting, which I think has helped both of us immensely.

UA time is most effective when spent away from home on dates. UA time spent at home is very ineffective because it is sporadic and too easy to get sidetracked by hobbies and domestic responsibilities. It should be spent on dates focusing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. [of course you would meet that last need at home grin ]

The time should be spread out over the week in 2 to 4 hour blocks. It is suggested that you sit down on Sunday afternoon and actually schedule out your week, writing out the dates, times and agreed upon activities. The worksheet for this is in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. You can download it free on this website, but I would suggest getting the workbook because it has GREAT lessons in it along with all the worksheets. Time For Undivided Attention Worksheet

It takes 15 hoours per week to maintain romantic love and 20+ hours to create, so I would schedule your hours accordingly. It is real important to schedule this time because time that is not scheduled is too easy to blow off. Couples that don't actually schedule their time usually don't meet this goal.

And.........that is tragic because this program does not work without this step. Everything else you do will be a waste of time.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
Originally Posted by graceful2b
Welcome MR/MRS Las vEgas!

I have read thru your thread. I too am at work and would like to respond or give my 2 cents. I have been in a struggle over this exact situation with my husband for 4 years now. In fact the Dr Harley responses already posted on this thread are from my direct questions to him in the private section. It was my husband who would insist he "needed" so much strenuous exercise per week or he was not OK. Anyway, I'd like to write back later when I'm not at work.


Thank you Graceful, I'm glad that you found this thread. I would be very interested to hear any details about your experience that you can share.

For others who we still owe a response, we're taking a little time to process our thoughts but will get back soon for sure.

I used to race in at LEAST 2 half marathon races a month, all over the state (and neighboring states).
When my marriage was hitting rock bottom, it was my outlet to actually accomplish something (which i wasnt accomplishing in my marriage)....

My wife was not a part of this sport, except for being at the finish line...

Looking back, I wish I would have spent the time doing something together that we BOTH enjoyed and concentrated on building romantic love in our marriage instead of my "need" for strenuous exercise.

I still exercise strenuously (just ran a half marathon)....and speak with many others who have a "need" for exercise....and most complain about their spouses to me.


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MrsLasVegas,

We do powerlifting/weightlifting together. We go to comps, we train together in our home gym, we have plenty of rest breaks to chat and do whatever else. We are both at completely different levels of strength and ability yet that has zero impact on our ability to interact during our sport. Cycling is one of those sports that leaves the slower cyclist in the dust, not a great compatible sport.

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One of our married couple friends has a tandem bicycle. The husband loves to cycle hard while his wife is much slower and Using the tandem bicycle means he can peddle as hard as he'd like, she can keep up as she best she can, and they get to be together and chat during the slower moments.


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Mr/Mrs Las Vegas,

As I stated earlier I have experienced the system where one spouse is driven towards vigorous work outs as a means to relieve stress/anxiety etc. 'from something' and the other spouse feels compelled to support the activity or forced to make this an accommodation for some 'good reason' (noble) that is supposed to benefit the relationship in a seemingly wholelistic healthful fashion.

The basic problem to this 'indirect' means of fulfilling RC needs of one spouse is it is independent behavior by the other spouse. This IB opens a whole can of worms for the marriage relationship. One spouse is receiving pleasures while the other spouse is 'hoping' to gain indirectly. In your case, these days your expectation of your investment is quickly repaid over the weekend ---so it seems to work for you for now. This set up is probably like an investment strategy which I'm sure you are used to following as you run a business. Therefore there are both 'good reasons' for Mr Las Vegas misgivings as well as his supportive or encouragement towards Mrs. Las Vegas. I'm just saying. Don't worry I'm going to incorporate MB.

As you can see I have been married many years and have lots of experience investing in this strategy as its been overlaid onto most of the years of our marriage.

So as a spouse of a very focused ambitious successful charming goal oriented guy who enjoys or has often stated he "needs" a vigorous form of exercise but also "needs" to work long hours in the 'helping' career he has chosen, here is the outcome on my emotional/physical/spiritual health and our marriage:

-priority confusion

I have felt 'less then' invisible, that I don't matter--an insidous soul robbing experience

-sacrifice is built into the relationship to keep the 'machine' going:

resentments build for both spouses

-the machine grows into a monster:

The troubles with this strategy is more and more risk is taken on to get the results or meet the IB goals.

It starts to look more and more symptomatic of an addiction lifestyle.

I'd become seriously ill at one point and my husband was lost to support me emotionally.

-Oops, the investment strategy and machine starts to crumble

Repayment for spousal sacrifice is not seen as warranted and postponed. Its a renters or freeloaders mentality at least in one area (RC) but soon the other emotional needs are farmed out.

Affairs, I don't love you, and the like...

A sense of feeling lonely within the relationship. No time for marriage.

defensive about IB and relationships that supported IB

My husbands gave his best to others and projected contempt towards me.

Only kept a small space in his life for me, huge space for IB activities



The combo #1 RC and Independent Behavior and allowing this 'combo' to dominate over a MB strategy is not as healthy as it might seem in that you don't want to let this slip by too readily as Mr Las Vegas is compelled to do. Its a really a poor short term and long term strategy.

I spoke with Steve Harley just two days ago. As he said, we are all wired for IB. He says its like a ski boat. Ski boats are made to drift and turn circles when not being steered. IB will create a habitual drift into your marriage that can be hard to recover from. I'm in a similar position as Mr Las Vegas is in currently.

There is a window opportunity while we are seemingly both on board with MB. My biggest concern right now and something SH and I discussed was constantly being in 'intentional collaboration' to remind ourselves not just to follow POJA but to follow the 4 rules of successful negotiations as POJA is simply the outcome of following the rules.

And joining your wife in a vigorous recreational activity that she developed an EA while involved may not work as it may be a huge trigger for Mr Las Vegas. Why?

I'll explain this in another post on your thread as I need to ready myself for work!






BW 58
WH 61
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2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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Wow, we are overwhelmed with information right now and have had a couple of days of pretty intense discussion so I'm sorry that we have seemed absent.

My cycling (and other previous activities) was a coping mechanism for me to deal with an abundance of time that I had, my H being more involved in work than our marriage and a host of other hurts from over a decade of being married. Both of our IB's lead us to the place that we are now and we see that much change is needed if we are to survive and thrive together.

We keep saying, time and again as we talk about various things, how we wished we knew about the PoJA. That would have been so remarkable in guiding us from the very beginning and avoiding the mess we've gotten into now. We are so grateful to have that now.

So, I've set cycling aside and I feel good about that. We have so many incredible plans that we are going to do together that I don't think it will be a great loss. I love the peace that I finally feel. Finally.

It's been so long since I've felt this calm, relaxed and so excited about our marriage and our life together. I feel like we are finally working for each other and not against each other. I feel like we have been given a second chance.

I can't even begin to tell you how thankful we are for this forum and this program. Your tough love, support, guidance and suggestions have really been helpful to guide our conversations to be constructive.

I know we are not out of the woods yet, but I am so hopeful right now. :-)

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Originally Posted by graceful2b
Mr/Mrs Las Vegas,

<snip>


Thank you for this insight! A lot of that totally makes sense and there was a lot of badgering that went along with us trying to connect on the cycling issue when we were so far apart on it and my "need" was just a form of IB because my EN were not being met, so I tried to meet my own EN the only way I knew how - exercise. Having the PoJA would have made this issue so much better if we had utilized it in the beginning. So glad we have that now and the tools to negotiate will be so helpful.

I agree that getting on board with the MB program does have a very short window of time and I was resistant to parts of it, specifically regarding IB.

I'm so sorry that you are going though a similar experience, although yours seems much deeper on several levels. It is hard to have a husband that is driven in everything but your marriage and I'm grateful that my own has made changes to that end. I truly hope that everything works out well for you and your husband. It is difficult to make the mental decision to give up IB's. I fought it for a while as you feel like you are giving up part of yourself. But in the end, who better to give myself to than my husband? Many hugs to you!

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
I used to race in at LEAST 2 half marathon races a month, all over the state (and neighboring states).
When my marriage was hitting rock bottom, it was my outlet to actually accomplish something (which i wasnt accomplishing in my marriage)....

My wife was not a part of this sport, except for being at the finish line...

Looking back, I wish I would have spent the time doing something together that we BOTH enjoyed and concentrated on building romantic love in our marriage instead of my "need" for strenuous exercise.

I still exercise strenuously (just ran a half marathon)....and speak with many others who have a "need" for exercise....and most complain about their spouses to me.

Yes, exercise was my escape. Congrats on your 1/2's! I miss running sometimes. There is something special about running on a quiet empty trail early in the morning. Such quiet. :-)

Curiously, how do you and your wife deal with the time that it takes you to train for your 1/2's? Is she involved in your training? How do you structure that time so it does not become an IB? Anything you'd like to share would be great. Thanks!



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Originally Posted by MrsLasVegas
It's been so long since I've felt this calm, relaxed and so excited about our marriage and our life together. I feel like we are finally working for each other and not against each other. I feel like we have been given a second chance.

I can't tell you how much it means to me to see you write this, babe. It's been a roller coaster the past couple weeks, but we're going to get off this ride in better shape than ever.

I love you.

Last edited by MrLasVegas; 04/25/14 02:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by MrLasVegas
Originally Posted by MrsLasVegas
It's been so long since I've felt this calm, relaxed and so excited about our marriage and our life together. I feel like we are finally working for each other and not against each other. I feel like we have been given a second chance.

I can't tell you how much it means to me to see you write this, babe. It's been a roller coaster the past couple weeks, but we're going to get off this ride in better shape than ever.

I love you.


It's you and me, babe. Still climbing. Always climbing. I can't wait to see how our marriage looks when we finally summit. I'm so excited!

I love you and am looking forward to our date tonight. :-)

Last edited by MrsLasVegas; 04/25/14 02:41 PM.
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Bravo to you both!! I think you will be amazed at how soon you start seeing significant improvements in your marriage if you use this approach. It would help tremendously If you could pick up the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. It has all of the worksheets and many lessons in it. We used this when we went through the MB course. They sell it cheap, $11, in the MB bookstore.

The most impactful step will be the policy of undivided attention so I would start there.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thrilled for you both!!!

Giving up your cycling is a big step. My husband gave up his dojo karate practice in January. He'd been bullish and uncooperative for a long long time.

We continue to rebuild with lots of activities. Some activities are harder then others. What seems like an activity we can do together while enjoying one anothers' company can become trouble due to the execution.

It starts out fun but my husband has the habit of drilling down to the nitty gritty of activities he likes and becomes an "expert." This leaves me in the dust! Hence the emphasis is on negotiation to help him where he has no instinct.

I was going to say, I tried to get involved with my husband in the practice of karate. I gave it my best shot over a period of three years. I was moving up in the ranks but it was torture all the way. I was trying to like it and be a good sport. Much of my husbands actions and inactions within the dojo environment were triggers for me with good reason. I was not the priority over the sport. One of my lowest point came about a year ago when the female sensei punched me in the chest breaking my sternum.


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"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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I just read this entire thread. Wow. I hope one day to be where you to are.

This story is an inspiration...

Good luck and god bless you both. !


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Originally Posted by MrsLasVegas
My cycling (and other previous activities) was a coping mechanism for me to deal with an abundance of time that I had, my H being more involved in work than our marriage and a host of other hurts from over a decade of being married.

This has been my experience, as a competitive runner and seems to be common among endurance athletes I speak with.

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Keep coming back here, listen to the radio show together, read Dr Harley's books over and over because each time you read seems something new sinks in...

Besides Lovebuster, read his new book He Wins/She wins which is a detailed account of his negotiation method (4 rules)and the PoJA!


BW 58
WH 61
married 35 years
2 adult children
2 grandchildren

"Love anything and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one...It will not be broken, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable...The only place outside of Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from dangers and perturbations of love is Hell" c.s. lewis
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