I was thinking about me and my husbands marital issues and that have been going on for quite some time but as I was thinking he has really changed a lot since a new guy started at his work almost 3 years ago.

This guy is in his 20's, married, kids, but he is the polar opposite of my husband. He's confident, kind of irrogant, take charge, tell you exactly what he thinks. just a real out there guy. Nice and all.

Now my husband is in his mid 30's totally controlled by family, lacks self confidence, was so sensitive, won't stick up for himself at all.

Well thinking about it over time he is always going about him. I think he wants to be more like him. I know he has started sharing all our marital issues with him which I don't like at all because he stopped talking to me but talks to him.

The other thing I was livid about was about a year ago I always have put little love notes in his lunch pail well one day I went to his work and they were spread all over the break room table for all to read. He used to be very private and respectful of our relationship.

I have noticed such a change in him over the years since this guy started. From his not calling as much, to starting with he has to call me, the way he talks different when he is on the phone with me and he enters the room its like I'm talking to a teenager, he has seemed to care less about my feelings and gotten so much more hard, mean, cold and insensitive. I think he does it to impress him. Like now he used to call me on his lunch breaks almost daily for the past 4 years well now he decided he's not calling me anymore.

And I know he is talking to him about our issues because he tells me he does and it worries me because I know this guy doesn't have a good marriage so what advice is he given my husband. And not at all am I saying it's this guys fault for how my husband is being no he is a grown man and should act like one.

I have met and seen this guy many times. We get along fine. But it just bothers me what's going on and if I say anything to him he'll run back and tell him. So I don't know what to do any thoughts??

So sorry to hear that.

You can't change this man in his 20's and you can't change your husband. All you can do is make requests that he does through one of Dr. H's home study programs.

It is obvious you guys are not as in love with each other as you guys were in the past but if you both are willing to work to have a happy marriage, you can.

The first step is both agreeing to start the work. All of the things in the office will resolve itself when you are in love.

Welcome to MB: a wonderful community of help! I am sorry for the reasons you find yourself here though.

Ok, lets get a few facts straight.

How long have you been married?

Do you have any kids?

First marriage for both of you? If not, why did other marriages fail?


I would also suggest that you snoop quietly without asking him to find out if he is having an affair. There are actually a lot of red flags suggesting that.
Please do not ask him or confront him: just go snoop to find out.

This guy might be the only problem or is a distraction to what is really going on. You MUST find out the Truth of what you are really dealing with though so the right "prescription" can be given.

Can you do this?

We've been married about 2.5 years.

No kids.

Second Marriage for me,(he cheated). First for him he was engaged she left him after 7 years for a guy she knew a week.

I have snooped already and there isn't anything and we have already had that talk on both sides and he says No he isn't he's not that guy and he worries he will have to go to his death bed and I still won't actually believe him because of my first husband.

I am going to guess that you guys lived together before marriage if you are talking about problems that arose 3 years ago and you have only been married 2.5 coupled with the fact he was engaged for 7 years?!

Have you seen this? Compatiblity

I would say, have you seen the articles about buyers, renters and free loaders?
It seems like you guys are stuck in a renters agreement and need some help to move over to a buyer.

Is he willing to come read here, look over material? Have you told him you guys have a problem?

have you also read this? Affair
Even though it is reading as if you are living with the person who had an affair on you: the principles still apply. If he would stop doing things that upset you and follow these guidelines he won't feel hopeless or punished by you about this anymore.

Am going to post a long post in a moment that goes over more things.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.
Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.

Some more Willard to chew on:

"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."

also....

"Marriage means that each spouse is committed to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."

really something to think about for all of us ....

... which brings us to POJA

which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness

The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles....

Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility

and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners

this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse

every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship

think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner

Harley says:

" In fact your Giver is willing to see YOU suffer even to the point of deep depression as long as you continue to care about others.

Your Taker is willing to see others suffer if it means you are happy or are prevented from suffering. "

So, we ALL have a Giver and a Taker

and they are both good ... because

they both care (Giver cares for others, Taker cares for you)

AND

they are both bad ... because

they are both thoughtless (Giver cares nothing about your feelings, Taker cares nothing about the feelings for others)

~~ Here's the important point Harley makes~~

"Because each of them ignores someone's feelings, they are both shortsighted. They fail to understand that you and others should be cared for and protected simultaneously, so that no one suffers"

Harley says:

"The Buyer's, Renter's, Freeloader's agreements determine how the Giver and Taker influence each of us."

..... and it's interesting that both the Buyer's and the Freeloader's agreements hold our Giver and Taker in check.

Both Freeloader's and Buyer's agreements disallow us to become self-sacrificing in our romantic relationship.

Freeloader's agreement and Buyer's agreements do not allow us to expect others to self-sacrifice in a romantic relationship.

But for very different reasons .....

Freeloaders feel that the right relationship should be effortless and people should only do what comes naturally.

Buyer's assume a long-term romantic relationship requires mutually enjoyable accommodation and encourages behavioral change to resolve conflict.



SO ..... those of us who are the faithful partner and thereby assume we are automatically THE BUYER in the relationship ... think again ! It is equally possible we are RENTERS .... especially if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves in order to "save the marriage" ....

If you are willing to sacrifice your needs for the relationship, you are not functioning with a Buyer's agreement..

What is so wrong with sacrificing in a marriage anyway?
The Renter's agreement places NO RESTRICTIONS on the Giver and the Taker.

Renters accept the sacrifice of others in a romantic relationship.

Renters accept the sacrifice of the self in a romantic relationship.

When a couple opens the door to expecting sacrifice of each other, arguments and fights and resentments are the result.

.... but it doesn't start off like that .... it starts off looking rather pleasant and feeling rather lovey-dovey ..... because Renters begin their romance with mutual sacrifice.

Givers control the courtship. Both Renters are in Giver-mode sacrificing in order to make the other happy ... and all is great .... as long as both partners stay in Giver mode.

But, no one does. Because Giver mode 24/7 is short-sighted and does not care for the self.

So ... the love and care Renter/Giver to Renter/Giver supply each other is UNpleasant because it ignores our Taker .... who cares for us. And this sacrifice for love takes it's toll.

Harley says it this way:

"A relationship based on sacrifice does not keep partners in a good mood. In fact, over time it tends to create a very BAD mood between partners. And whenever we are in a bad mood, our Takers come to our rescue.~ Are you unhappy? That's because you've been giving too much. Now it's time for you to do some taking~, our Taker whispers to us. "

Harley says:

"Demands are usually the first step in an argument."

"When one partner tells the other what to do, it's because his or her Taker suggests that the demand is reasonable."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~after all~ your partner OWES YOU .... you have sacrificed sooooooo much .... and your partner OUGHT TO sacrifice for YOU now !!!!

~~~~~~boxing gloves on ! My Taker is going to take on your Taker....
When someone feels the unpleasant effects of all their sacrificing .... stress enters .... and their Taker starts demanding a little "me time" .... and they express "If you won't give me what I need when I ask for it, I'll make you give it to me."

manipulation begins .... choose your weapons

The ANGER and cursing and the RESENTMENTS are your Taker's way of coming to the rescue when your Giver has been unchecked.

I suggest, to those of us who are feeling RESENTFUL, that we make a comprehensive study of 'sacrifice' and how we have valued 'sacrifice' as a tool for getting what we need .... no matter who is doing the sacrificing.

Sacrifice is a dishonest way of getting our needs met.
"What I'm saying is that your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. This doesn't rule out short-term sacrifice, though, because your Taker can be enthusiastic about some forms of sacrifice, if they're in your long-term interest."

"But when you agree to something reluctantly, it means you are sacrificing with no personal gain in sight. You are doing it for someone else's gain. That's why your Taker usually tries to sabotage any agreement you have made reluctantly."

Do not forget ....
when you agree to something reluctantly

you are being dishonest in your marriage !

The Buyers approach to problem solving.

Buyers don't try to control each other.

Buyers don't make demands.

Buyers don't show disrespect or lose their temper.

They solve their problems by negotiating solutions that are win/win.

What kind of hours does your husband work?

Do he and this coworker ever participate in any recreation outside of work?

He works alot from like 3am-8pm weekdays
and on the weekends its 3am-6pm.

He has a regular full time job and a family business he basically is full time with, he is taken advantage of there though they depend on him to do to much because they know he will (kind of like a slave).

The only thing these two have done outside of work was put a railing on the porch of our house otherwise nothing.

Is he willing to come read here, look over material? Have you told him you guys have a problem?

What did YOU think about all the information you read?

One thing is for sure: you guys have to start putting your marriage before anything else or soon you will not have a marriage left.

Have you told him that him not calling you during lunch will really hurt your feelings?

Radical changes to your marriage are needed. Can you email Dr. Harley himself? If you click on the link for the radio broadcast, he can answer you by email OR even talk to you on the phone.

Bottom line is you guys need to learn how to follow the POJA. You are not enthusiastic with him not calling you and the way he has been treating you. Time to re negotiate. You are not enthusiastic about this male friend: brainstorm what you are going to do about that.

There might be many many things you guys need to POJA about really at this point.

Oh he knows we have a problem.

I do agree with a lot that is said. He knows his schedule is causing issues with the marriage.

But we both are to the point we feel so frustrated, hurt, disconnected, etc. We know we need something to change.

I did tell him about not calling me and how that just made it worse and feel even more pushed out of his life. He said he is frustrated and felt it was taken for granted and it wasn't making me happy so he's not doing it anymore

Have you seen this?
How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage