Our 25th anniversary is this July. We have 7 children - the youngest is not quite 2.

I got really busy three years ago with a side job and my wife formed an attachment to another woman in my emotional absence. The other woman is married. Their relationship became physical (kissing and heavy petting - but they both claim it stopped there). My wife had always been honest to a fault before meeting this other woman - and suddenly she became secretive and deceptive.

After 2 1/2 years of dealing with this, I grew emotionally distant from her and did some things I'm not proud of that have hurt her.

It culminated in November 2013 when I refused to show any affection to her for 7 weeks unless she ended her relationship with the other woman. She looked at it as a divorce situation. I confronted her after the 7 weeks and said I was leaving - but by then, she didn't care.

I broke down and told her I didn't want to leave and we reconciled, but with huge issues still hanging over our heads. (That was January 5th.)

On February 7th, I discovered her password to her phone, email and Facebook. I found evidence of her continued inappropriate relationship with the other woman, seeking connection with the woman's husband, comments about continually struggling with a desire for a relationship with them and additional details. I asked her about it and she bold-faced lied to me. That's when I admitted that I had accessed her email and had proof she was doing all of that and lying to me. She blew her stack at me.

We had three days of fighting. I went to a lawyer - with her begging me not to leave, not to give up, to come back to her.

After I saw the lawyer, I realized how horrific divorce would be for our children and I repented of that line of thinking. I came home - but found my wife would not speak with me and had turned off her emotions toward me. (That was February 11th.)

Since then, we've attended marriage counseling - but she now refuses to go back. She said, "Any counselor we see would tell me that I'm wrong and side with you."

She has accused me of being emotionally abusive - and there is some truth to that which I cannot deny. I'm seeing our former marriage counselor alone - and another counselor to help me work through my abusive attitude and behavior. (I would like to think that I can take criticism and improve myself.)

Things seemed to be getting better, but for the last three weeks she has completely turned off all affection. At least for the previous time she would occasionally hold my hand, we had a few times that she kissed me and she even spontaneously told me that she loved me. Now, she won't make contact with me physically, sometimes she pulls away when I touch her, there's no kissing and maybe 1 out of 10 times she'll respond with "I love you, too" when I tell her (though that could be accidentally and by wrote as opposed to actually wanting to say anything).

She still talks to her former lover 15-20 hours a week, sees her nearly daily (shopping and other activities) and is constantly texting her and Facebook messaging her.

She will have sex with me if I ask for it - though she has recently complained about that. And the sex we have is "robot sex" - no emotion at all. Just a physical release.


I'm in hell. I am not the kind of man who appreciates emotionless sex. I'd rather not have it at all. I ache for her love and affection.

We still share the same bed, but we don't touch anymore. We used to be called "the Velcro twins" because we'd touch all the time, hold hands, snuggle, kiss - even after 24 years of marriage, all the time.

Now? Nothing.

My counselors tell me that I need to avoid her, while still showing her affection. She still seeks me out to talk to me and to tell me about her day - but we don't talk about anything more meaningful than mundane life. We don't talk about how we feel at all. Nothing. (I'm also the kind of guy who wants deep, meaningful discussions.)

She complains about my romance - so I've stopped sending cards, writing poetry, leaving messages, bringing her flowers and gifts, making her breakfast, etc.

I gave a vow to God to love her for the rest of my life. I can't turn back from that vow.

Can anyone offer any advice on what to do? I've read a bunch of books. I've read a bunch of sites. I've done everything I can think.

(And, yes, there's lots more to the history - we have 25 years of a life together and I can't cram it all into a single post. Feel free to ask.)

Welcome to Marriage Builders.
I have a few questions ...
Did you expose her affair?
Does the other woman's husband know?

This is a big reason why you haven't made any progress in recovery. The affair is still ongoing -- she is NOT a FORMER lover -- and it will continue as long as they are in contact with each other. Think of your wife as a drug addict. The OW is her drug of choice, and she cannot withdraw from the drug as long as she keeps taking hits (continued contact).

Your counselor's advice is detrimental to you winning your wife back. Wayward wives do not respond to being ignored. It just confirms to her that you are the bad guy who neglects her. If you want to win her back, you are going to have to become irresistible to her. You will need to relentlessly pursue and woo her. She may act annoyed or angry when you do because you will be messing with her belief that you are the bad guy, but ignore her protests and keep at it. Have you read about Plan A?

Dr Harley has stated that lesbian affairs are the EASIEST to break up, btw. They are very fragile so you have a great chance at success if you will expose.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about lesbian affairs:

Hosea1968,

You need to track down ALL of the OW's family, church, work, and other contacts. Then massively expose without warnings, threats or delay. Gather all your evidence, DO NOT TELL YOUR WW ANYTHING!

If I understand you correctly your WW had relations with the OWH then you need to do the same to OWH.

God Bless
Gamma

Thanks for the welcome, Markos' wife.

I'll try to answer your questions and provide more information:


I don't know what you mean by "expose". If that means "tell others", I told a few people and she accused me of "trying to damage her reputation". I threatened to expose everything. when it all came to a head, I was not completely rational and was not respectful. I said and did a lot of things I wish I had not said or done.

Yes, the other woman's husband knows - and he has threatened to kill my wife, our children, me and his wife over the years - apparently he threatened his wife quite recently.

My wife insists that the physical relationship ended a long time ago and now they "are like sisters". She completely refuses to acknowledge that her relationship with this other woman is an emotional affair. They are constantly talking, texting, facebook messaging and shopping together. My wife said she has "committed" to seeing this woman "at least 30 minutes a day" - and they talk on the phone 15-20 hours a week.


I don't disagree. I threatened to leave her if she didn't end the relationship - but she was willing to let me go. And that's the state that we've been in for the last 4 months - she has never returned to being affectionate toward me since I had my appointment with a lawyer. I realized in that appointment how horrible a divorce would be for our children and came back to attempt to reconcile - she hasn't shown me affection since. (I shouldn't say "never" - she occasionally shows me affection, as if it was an after-thought or an accident or she is overwhelmed with emotions and gives in - and then later she is cold and harsh and distant.) She says she doesn't trust me - and I have to admit that I have done things in the past that I have to fix. I am not lily-white and pure.


At this point the only way that Plan A would work would be to win her heart back first - she is already expecting me to leave her and that's why she's refusing to soften her defenses against me. She has already divorced me emotionally. At this stage, I'm trying to win her back WHILE she is in this emotional affair with the other woman.


I'm afraid that her limerance and infatuation have coalesced into a solid bond. They are in solidarity against their husbands (me and the other woman's husband). Because he is abusive, they see me through that same lens and I've been accused of being abusive. (Sadly, because of my recent outbursts and the last few years of fighting over this other woman, I cannot claim to be innocent of the charges.)


If I want my marriage to end, that's exactly what I need to do. The only way this will work is if she cares about me - and she has completely shut off her heart from me and refuses to care.

When you say "expose" - do you mean provide copies of emails, copies of journal entries, copies of facebook messages and so forth?


No, the Other Woman's Husband (I think that's what OWH means) made several passes at my wife, but my wife finds him "gross". He has said things to her that "whatever my wife does with someone else, I should have the right to do with them, too." He held her hand. He hugged her. He came into my house and talked to her for a long time when I wasn't there. That is all that has been done between them.

My counselor did not say to "ignore her" and I realize I said the wrong thing - she said not to "focus on her". I was wrapped up in all these analyses of her body language, her movements, her time frames, when she said X, how she said it, etc. And the counselor said to stop doing that - but to continually show her affection.

We are still in the same bed and we still have sex. My wife told me she wanted to know what my needs were (sexually) so that she could meet them. I've been telling her when I want sex and she has provided for those needs. However, it's "robot sex" - no emotion, no kissing, no "I love you" - just raw, physical release. I ensure she has her release, as well. Occasionally when we're finished, she'll snuggle me and we'll talk like friends.

I've just started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" and I've changed some of my behavior. In the past, I've shown affection to her by touching her non-sexually in erogenous zones. (I would snuggle her at night and slide a hand under her nightgown and hold her breast as we drifted to sleep, for instance - not trying for anything, just an "intimate touch".) I have stopped that. Last night, I snuggled her and I laid my arm across her belly and draped my hand on her hip bone or laid it across her leg. Enough for a "snuggle" - but without any intimate touching.

I expected this morning for her to be distant - because whenever we touch at all, she's distant the next day or two. However, I kissed her cheek, her lips and her neck and said, "Have a good day, I love you." And she responded with "I love you, too." (I have no idea of it was by wrote or accidental - but there are many days when she doesn't say anything in response.)

She claims that she loves me. She claims that she doesn't want to leave me. She has told friends and a counselor this - and my kids have overheard her telling someone and told me later that she said it. She has also said, "He is the best father they could ever have." And she has said some praising words of me in front of them and in front of others when she didn't know I could hear her.

I am - and must be - hopeful. If I can win her love and affection back, then I can implement plan A. That is the only thing I know how to do at this point.

Oh, and a complication: she's in perimenopause. She's been skipping cycles and going through night-sweats and hot-flashes. This is a further complication because she perceived her "worth" as being pregnant and having children - and that's going away. She is trying to strike out independently (something I've encouraged her to do for years, btw) - but coming as it does during this period of time, it's driving insecurities into me.

We are not strong enough for me to implement Plan A at all. If I attempted it, we would immediately be at Plan B - and she would let me go.

First I have to win back her heart. Only then will either Plan A or Plan B have any positive effect.

Questions:

Should I show romance? Cards? Poetry? Post-its on the mirror? Flowers? Making her breakfast? Sending her emails with pictures of flowers? Texts that say, "I'm thinking about you, I miss you." That kind of thing?

I've shut it down because the counselor said I was "too focused on her" -- but I have a reputation as Mr. Romance to uphold! (Her nickname for me throughout our 25 years together.) Not doing those things for her is difficult. However, I'm afraid that right now, it's driving her away more than pulling her close.

Hi, Hosea. Welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the situation that brings you here.

Is there any chance you were on Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders radio show last week? I seem to remember hearing a caller whose situation was similar to yours.

Have you read the Basic Concepts here on this site?

Do you own the book Surviving an Affair?

Before you go too much further - I'm not sure you completely understand Plan A and Plan B. Best to reserve making your decisions until you read up a bit more and get educated.

In order to repair your marriage with your wife, are you willing to create an uncompromisable fifteen hours a week in your schedule for her FOR LIFE? Time that will be spent alone with her, giving her your undivided attention, meeting her intimate emotional needs (conversation and affection)? Time that will not be put aside no matter what happens each week? And probably more than fifteen hours for awhile, while you restore your marriage?

After you read the Basic Concepts, you will see that this other woman met her emotional needs through time spent together, engaging in conversation and meeting other intimate emotional needs. You're going to need to replace that time with time spent with you.

If you think this is at all unrealistic, it is probably not possible to save your marriage.

Exposure is the best way to break up an affair. Read this: Exposure 101
You must first break up her affair before you can win her back. This is an essential first step towards recovery. Affairs thrive on secrecy.

Plan A IS all about winning her heart back!
Instead of "His Needs, Her Needs," please get "Surviving An Affair" and read through it. You can download it on a amazon and start reading today. It contains the plan you need to follow.

Yes, this is all a part of Plan A. If you stop doing these things, it confirms to her that you are the neglectful bad guy who isn't worth her time. She needs to see that you want her.

I will keep reading. I am meeting with our former marriage counselor - we attended for about six weeks before my wife refused to go back saying, "No matter what counselor we visit, they will all tell me I'm wrong and side with you."

Because she accused me of being abusive (emotionally), I'm also seeing another counselor to help me adjust and resolve those issues.


Yes. Absolutely. My wife is and always has been my best friend. She is and always has been the one that God chose for me and I still love her with all my heart. I would rather hear her "prattle" on about the same things over and over than anyone else telling me new and exciting things. I committed myself to her and I realize that it was my neglect that caused her to wander. I take full responsibility - and now that I know what I need to do, I'm more than willing.

She's been trying to distance herself from me, complaining that I'm "hovering" around her - but I've cut back extensively on my second job and pulled back from other hobbies so that I can be available to her. She still pulls away - but she also spends more time with me than when all this started. And I drop everything I'm doing and look her in the eyes and pay attention to her when she talks - even if I'm reading and she interrupts me or watching a movie (when I've gone off to give her the space she's asked for).

Last night, I made a point to try to draw her out about a book that we both read. It also happens to be a book that the other woman read. She has been trying to share experiences with the other woman - and then share them with me (and vice versa). She got the other woman to read a book that I had read a few years ago and then she got me to read this book that she and the other woman read. I don't know what to make of it, but when she asks me to read something and share it with her, I'm doing it.

Anyway, I'm trying to draw her out and meet her needs when she expresses them. She told me that she wants me to spend more time with the family, so we've been having family game nights. She's including me in reading the Bible, though it's been a bit of a struggle at times to get the whole family into a room (and quiet!) for 30 minutes.



I see that now. I also find it interesting that she is spending 15-20 hours a week talking to this other woman - that's *my* time!



Two hours a day and three on Sunday? Not a problem. In fact, I'd like it to be more than that!


I'm going to take this under advisement for the time-being - get my ducks in a row - while working to win back her heart. She says she is "not bisexual" and "not attracted to women" and she claims that her relationship with the other woman is platonic and "sisterly". I'm going to presume that this is true for the time being - while I work to win her back. (They had some kissing sessions years ago and she complained that I was castigating her for sexual liaisons when they didn't do that - still, at least they aren't having sex...)

If I find new evidence that the relationship is more than emotional, then I'll push for exposure.


She complains that I'm "using my natural charm" to win her back and it's a "tactic" - part of the book she read about emotional abuse warned her that an emotional abuser will do that to get her "back under his thumb".

Now that I know what I've done to her, I want never to do it again. I want to be the man that she wants and needs and I want her to be the wife that I want and need.

She asked me to tell her when I had sexual needs - but one of my counselors suggested giving her more space and not telling her my needs. Should I tell her of my sexual needs? Or just wait for her to make those moves?

She still does things to try to please me. She dresses in a way that she knows I like. She is concerned that if she "bulks up" (she's training for a marathon) that I won't find her as attractive (I'm not into muscles on a woman). She does things that she knows I'll like. She even bought me a little treat while out grocery shopping (with the other woman) that she knew I'd really appreciate.

I have to see these as positive things - even if she is otherwise withholding affection and keeping me at arms' length emotionally.

Do you realize that emotional affairs are just as damaging to a marriage (if not more so) than sexual affairs? Especially for women.

This relationship is NOT sisterly. I have 4 sisters. I have NEVER engaged in a kissing session with any of them. This woman is a lover, even if they have never kissed since. Your wife is addicted to her as if she were addicted to a drug.

You cannot win her back as long as the addiction continues.

At this point, exposure is the kindest thing you can do for your wife. She cannot break the addiction on her own. Exposure will be the first step in killing the affair, and thus, it is the first step in breaking your wife's addiction.

She needs your help.

Hosea, can you answer my question about the radio show, and the other questions in that post?

"All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:20-21

You need to expose the affair to the light.

Sorry. I thought I got all of them.

I didn't send anything or post anything before my first post in this thread - I wasn't on the radio show.

I have just been reading the Basic Concepts. I'm just now digesting the details.

I don't own the book Surviving an Affair, but I'm planning to read it as soon as I'm finished with His Needs, Her Needs - I'm 40% done.

Prisca,
I completely understand that the emotional affair is just as damaging. I completely agree that she needs to walk away from this unwholesome relationship ASAP.

I'm getting my ducks in a row (proof) before I expose.