This is false. It needs to be exposed regardless.

According to the material on this site, this is what it says to do:


If you are advocating that I skip over the negotiation phase and go straight to exposure, then it is you who are suggesting something different than the Plan (at least as posted on this site).

What am I misunderstanding?

WE are advocating that you follow Plan A and stop skipping it. You are to expose FIRST. Nowhere does Dr Harley tell spouses to send longwinded letters to a wayward and skip exposure. That is a useless endeavor. Would you send such a letter to a falling down drunk? Of course you wouldn't. Well, your wife has the mentality of a falling down drunk. And she will remain that way as long as you keep her secret.

Please read Dr. Harley's quotes:

here

Here, he makes clear that exposure is the FIRST STEP towards recovery:


Here is my thread that links several radio shows where Dr Harley tells betrayed spouses they must expose: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=163853&Number=2518985#Post2518985

This is all false.

You should throw the letter away and follow Marriage Builders. You are making strategic mistakes that are going to make it much harder to help you. We can't help you if you won't follow the plans.

Well, firstly, I posted that letter not as something I intended to give to her, but as something I was hoping you would critique and say, "This section sounds good for the initial negotiation, but scrap this section over here..."

I'm feeling very attacked by you all.

When I find a link on the site - like this one: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html - that says "negotiate BEFORE exposure" and then you all come back with "EXPOSE FIRST! EXPOSE FIRST! We won't help you if you don't immediately throw your whole life into chaos before you're emotionally ready to handle it!"

Honestly, you guys get an F as far as helping someone through this. We went from "buy this book and read it" this morning to "we're not going to help you unless you obey our every whim - oh, and by the way, we're just some people on an internet forum who are advocating the exact opposite of three of your marriage counselors..." in the afternoon.

Chill out!

I'm just coming to terms with all this and you're threatening me and badgering me and it's all a lot to deal with at the moment!

I still think, based on reading Dr. Harley's post about negotiating first (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html) that I need to approach this carefully, considerately and with good planning.

I'm gathering my evidence. I'm preparing the list of people to expose it to. I'm reading the book. I've posted a negotiation treatise to get some feedback and you guys went nuclear on me.

Chill out.

My wife is not going anywhere. My life is already chaotic enough. I don't need to throw a boulder into the swimming pool just because a couple people on the internet badgered me into it. I need to study this, understand it and put my ducks in a row before I take any action.

I will not be badgered into any course of action.

And if you considered yourself helpful, you would *guide* instead of badgering and making threats of withholding advice simply because someone is completely new to this (as you, yourselves have said, *I don't understand it* - and you want me to act on something I don't understand? Isn't that a bit like expecting a chimpanzee to drive a car in rush hour traffic?)

What you describe as 'badgering' is really just urgency. The posters on your thread understand what needs to happen here and the urgency of it all.

This thing has been festering out of control for some time, so the sooner you address it like the sickness it is, the better.

Writing a long, complicated letter to an addict is foolish. She won't read it, she won't 'get' it. She doesn't care because she has everything she wants...you've been pretty wimpy about this. Hours and hours of phone calling and other contact with her affair partner? She has it made and she's not going to give it up without a fight.

Trying to negotiate with her is nuts. She's out of her right mind. You simply can't count on getting through to her. Exposure wakes everyone up. It's the bucket of cold water she needs right now to sober up. You are tiptoeing around this when you need to be suiting up for battle.

We've seen your story hundreds and hundreds of times. It's the same story and you fight it the same way. Follow the plan.

Hosea,

If you dont want to follow Dr. Harley's program then don't.
If you want to follow the three marriage counselors, then feel free to. It's your marriage and life.

However, so there is no confusion: Exposure is not subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement referenced in the letter you posted by Dr. Harley.

Dr. Harley is very clear that he encourages exposure because it kills most affairs.

No one here is withholding advice, what they are doing is giving you the advice as per the marriage builders plan, all the people advising you are Vets on here and have helped hindreds of people save their marriage, they do this because they care and want to help people heal like they have healed, they do this in their own time and no one goes out of their way to bash anyone, they all walked in your shoes and have had to do what they are asking you to do. you want to deflect as you are a conflict avoider and scared of rocking the already sunk boat with your wife. With all due respect how far have you gotten with saving your marriage doing it your way??

I wish someone had kept a record of all the people who bash the vets or the plan and alter it to their ways and then come back grovelling to the forum saying I wish I had listened when it's too late for their marriage. Most common regret is "wish I exposed sooner".

It's plain and simple as stated before, you don't have a marriage until your WW separates from her affair, you could turn into Prince Charming tomorrow and as long as she is in an active affair she won't care. That's why you need to Expose first . Exposure kills the fantasy land a WW creates with the OW and shines a true light on the consequences of the affair.

Plan A is a carrot and stick plan, carrot is not Love busting, meeting her needs etc. stick part is exposing and not permitting this affair to continue.

The way I see it you have lost your wife so it can't get any worse than that but if you want any chance to get her back you need to expose without any further delay.

The time you wasted writing that nice letter could have been spent on exposure and you could be a lot further along in saving your marriage than giving a wayward spouse a nice letter that ultimately will mean nothing to them and might as well be written in Chinese as they already have "loved up" feelings for someone else so they don't need your love right now.

Also, you don't threaten to expose. You don't tell her anything. You just do it. To rally support for your marriage. To toss that affair into the light, where it won't be so appealing.

Don't use exposure as a threat or a bargaining chip.

Marathon runners dont bulk up.
Bodybuilders do but many avid women runners are very skinny

I've read through your thread again and thus far, it is 5 pages of you arguing against exposure.
If you dont believe anyone on this forum, why dont you email Dr. Harley directly? Or go to the main page and schedule a telephone session with Steve Harley?

We are mot telling you our "whims," though. We are telling you how the program works because we have been through the program and recovered our own marriages. We are trying to help you avoid making mistakes that will greatly impair your outcome.

Most of us here are in fully recovered marriages, been through the entire program, have met Dr Harley and have listened to hundreds of hours of his radio shows. We know what Dr Harley advises and we know you are making strategic mistakes.

Did you read the quotes we posted? Did you listen to the radio clips I posted? No one is "badgering" you or forcing you into a course of action. We are attempting to help you do this correctly.

For your sake, I hope you can open your mind and put aside your own biased notions. Your marriage depends on it. And I will warn you that folks will not help you for long if you ignore the advice and are rude to the people who are taking their own personal time to help you. We have already saved our marriages and have careers, families, marriages and don't have to help you. We are all volunteers here.

I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion - Dr. Harley is usually pretty clear that Plan A is exposure and expressing a willingness to meet one's spouses emotional needs. It should usually be a little longer and a little heavier on the meeting emotional needs for men than for women. But it definitely includes exposure and does not say to use exposure as a threat or a bargaining chip in a negotiation.

Hosea, I don't mean to argue, but I have listened to over three hundred hours of Dr. Harley on the radio. I have heard him cover Plan A and Plan B over and over again. I am pretty sure I understand him - he doesn't say to negotiate before exposure, and he doesn't say to negotiate before exposure in the article that you linked to.

Here's what he says:

Negotiate to end the affair - it doesn't say negotiate before exposure. In fact, he goes on to say:


That is pretty unequivocal - while you are doing Plan A, exposure is a part of the plan.

I don't think there's a lot to be gained from arguing this. Nobody's going to make you follow Dr. Harley's methods. They certainly don't agree with what a lot of other counselors might tell you. But what most of us here on this forum will tell you is that following other methods wrecked our marriages and following Dr. Harley's recommendations brought them back to life. Some of us like me have heard Dr. Harley counsel hundreds of couples through these issues. We have heard the results when people followed this recommendation; we have heard the results when people did not follow this recommendation.

I can tell you that if my wife or I had an affair, both of us know that it would be no time at all till the affair was exposed to the entire family, church, friends, pretty much everyone we know. And our marriage is better for it.

Okay. Call me thick-headed. I'm getting to it. I've made some calls tonight to get some support. I'm getting contact information for all the friends and family that I need to reach.

The only way I know to get to the other woman's family is to confront them directly at their church. (It's a small, completely independent church without a formal pastoral staff.) I am bold enough to walk in and say, "I'm a Christian and I have a conflict with one of your members who refuses to correct their action and I wish to make a Matthew 18 appeal to the church body. X is having a physical and emotional affair with my wife. I have proof if you need to see it and I am asking you to pray and to influence her to stop contacting my wife. Thank your prayers." (I can also take "backup" if I need to, just to be sure that I don't get into a physical altercation.)

Bad idea? Good idea?

My wife and the other woman both teach classes at the same place and I am working on getting their boss' contact info.

It will take a few days to get it all together. In that time, I plan to read and digest Surviving an Affair. Maybe I'll understand Plan A better.

How should I behave after I send out all the emails and messages? Should I make myself scares? Should I simply go about my routine as normal? Should I cancel her phone service (that's how she maintains contact with the other woman)?

What should I do after exposure?

Hosea,

Yes for now do not tip off your WW of your intentions. I do like your plan.

Your WW has no need to stop since she is cake eating, that is WW has you as a father and provider and source of respectability: and the OW for romance, excitement and love.

Some betrayed spouses suffer this injustice for years or even decades, I don't think you want that future for yourself and your children. Make no mistake about it the OW is also attacking your children by undermining their family and helping to turn your WW in a poor moral example for your kids.

Speaking of your kids you may want to get a DNA test for your youngest.

God Bless
Gamma

Good man!


Does the OW have a facebook page? I would either do a facebook exposure by sending PMs to friends and family, and/or go to her parents home and tell them in person. I would also tell the OW's pastor and ask him to intervene.


You do understand that your wife will need to leave that job in order for the marriage to recover? You may already know this and have a plan in place to make this happen.

I would also plan on exposing to Human Resources in a formal manner. In this instance, Dr Harley does say that if workplace exposure might result in the WS being charged with sexual harassment, another way is to give the WS 30 days to leave the job. Tell her if she is not gone, you will THEN expose in the workplace.


A huge help in exposure is my exposure thread linked in my signature. It gives best practices, talking points, and watch outs. It will also help you develop exposure lists.


I would prepare for her to be furious with you and to threaten you. She will probably threaten divorce and try to kick you out. Just imagine a crackhead who had his crack pipe taken from and you will understand the reaction you will get. don't let it scare you one bit. It will blow over.

Yes, but Facebook has a new policy that if you are not a friend of the person that the message goes into a hole that doesn't inform you that you have received it - you have to go and look in that hole specifically to see what messages you've received from people you don't know. The only way to send a message to someone that you don't have as a friend is to make a friend request of them and include the message in the friend request.

Which is a feasible thing to do, actually.


The church is a little different. It's made up of about 10 families and the "church leadership" are the men in the families who trade off duties of preaching and teaching. They have no formal pastoring. They also don't have a phone or contact info. The only way I know of to reach them is to literally walk in and interrupt the service - which is what I'm thinking of doing.


The teaching jobs they have are with a small, private school that's just getting off the ground and they teach "adjunct" classes - extra stuff - so they don't do more than one day a week. Honestly, so much time is spent away from my children during the week because of this affair (teaching, shopping, exercising, on the phone constantly) that I don't care if the job ends. We don't need the income from her teaching (in fact, that income has disappeared into a "secret" account that she doesn't know that I know she has, so its never been part of our budget and the gas costs to get there have been sucked out of our budget, as well).


Not really an HR. There are two women who are in charge of things and I know how to reach them. It's a very close-knit community that will probably explode when they discover there's a same-sex affair taking place.


I've been reading it. It's a lot to digest all at once.



When I talked to a lawyer in February he said not to leave the house unless she got a restraining order against me. He said it could appear to be "abandonment" of the children.

Last night we had a tiff because she posted something on facebook and I posted along with it. She said I was "turning it to be about me" and I explained that I was trying to be supportive of what she said and didn't intend to shift focus toward me at all.

We were in bed, lights off, I was trying to connect with her. She was still angry, having spent most of the evening away from me (we had maybe 5 minutes before bedtime).

As I was talking, she kept interrupting saying, "I don't want to talk!" I did say a few things that I hope she heard. I said that her withholding affection was abusive behavior. I said that I have a need to receive her affection.

She threatened to go upstairs and sleep with our daughter if I didn't stop talking. I said, "I'm not going to stop talking, so you might as well go." She paused and said, "I'm comfortable. I don't want to go upstairs."

Then she said she didn't want to hear anything other than specific apologies for specific behavior from me. I responded that I had already given her those apologies and that she had said she didn't want to hear any more apologies (these were previous discussions over the last 4 months).

She was going back and forth in her demands - on the one hand castigating me for posting on her page and on the other telling me I had an "attitude" when I said I would not post on her page anymore. Then I pointed out to her that I've stopped texting her, emailing her, liking her posts, or calling her during the day because she had given me grief about each of those things. She was very quiet then. I ended the conversation by saying, "I love you." She did not respond.

I had asked her if we could touch (snuggle) before all this erupted and she said, "If you want." I had said to her previously (in a letter and verbally) that I would not touch her unless I had a positive response form her - neutral and negative responses and I wouldn't touch her. (I did that because she accused me of "manipulating her with her love language of touch"). So, I asked again, if we could touch and she responded with "I don't care." So we spent the night with me on my side of the bed and her on hers.

This morning, when I went to work, we hugged - but I didn't try to kiss her. I held her for 30 seconds (I counted). She didn't pull away - but she didn't lean into it, either. I looked her in the eyes and said, "I love you." I turned and opened the door, started to exit and she said, "I love you, too." There was enough of a pause that I know she thought about it and it wasn't "by wrote" - especially when she deliberately avoids telling me sometimes.

Our counselors have said she "takes a long time to process what she's heard" - maybe some of what I said the night before got through. I don't know.

I talked to another friend last night (when seeking support) who told me that she was against me getting involved in marathons because I was "just trying to come between me [my wife] and the other woman" - yet she had told me that she didn't get into marathons because of the other woman. My wife claimed that she got into the marathons because of another friend - but I know this is a lie. She has done a lot of things just because the other woman does them recently - books to read, shows to watch, activities to participate in - that are uncharacteristic for her.

She has a "secret" bank account - and doesn't know that I have access to it.

I have some very specific questions:

1) Should I cut off her phone? This is where she makes contact with the other woman through voice, text, email and facebook. At this point, I have access to the call logs and can see how much time and how many texts she is sharing - if I cut it off, she could get another phone and I would no longer have access.

2) When we reach Plan B (because I can't imagine Plan A working, to be honest) should I transfer the money from her secret account into the joint account?

3) When should I separate finances - different credit cards, different bank accounts, etc.?

4) How do I see my kids if we hit Plan B if I'm breaking off contact with her? Our youngest has trouble being away from her for more than a few hours. He is still nursing and she is adamant about him not using a bottle. (The nursing is more of an emotional connection than a food source, but he doesn't handle time away from her without that emotional connection very well.)

5) What should I be asking about that I probably don't know to ask?

Very busy today so I can't read this long post. But I will address this:

"Yes, but Facebook has a new policy that if you are not a friend of the person that the message goes into a hole that doesn't inform you that you have received it - you have to go and look in that hole specifically to see what messages you've received from people you don't know. The only way to send a message to someone that you don't have as a friend is to make a friend request of them and include the message in the friend request."

You don't have to do any of that and I strongly recommend that you go read my exposure thread. All you do is send the PM and pay the $1 fee and they put it into the persons regular mailbox.