I have recently been crushed by the news that my wife doesn't "love" me in a romantic way and hasn't for 8 years. We have only been married for 7 years. I guess we thought getting married would fix it. Then we thought moving from an apartment to a nice house would fix it. Then we thought a child would fix it (we have a wonderful 2 year old daughter). I'm not completely oblivious. I knew we had problems, and I knew she was missing the "spark". But I just thought that meant it wasn't quite as exciting as it was in the beginning. I thought that's just what couples who survive the long haul deal with. We have had our heads in the sand for far too long. She finally had to tell me how she feels. She doesn't believe it's fixable. I am crushed. I have lost 7 pounds in 4 days, and I only weight ~150.

But in the week or so since I found out, I have found this website, Dr. Hadley's books and this community. It is like he can read my mind, so obviously we're not the first to go through this. We don't fight a ton (more than we'd want, to be sure). We generally enjoy doing things together, without distractions, but that almost never happens anymore, and it has been lacking for as long as I can remember. After reading the concept of the LB, LD, and LW, it makes perfect sense that we have fallen apart. I believe again that I didn't make a mistake marrying her, we have just mismanaged our marriage. There's no one on Earth I could have married and be perfectly happy with right now if we'd followed the same path.

When I first started looking for help, I assumed you couldn't "manufacture" love. I just thought it was something that happens, and you just have to be with the right person for it to last. I am learning that I have been wrong. But my worry is the length of time she has been missing this love. Is 8 years too much to overcome?

Right now she is not optimistic that it can turn around, and I have not had the chance to talk to her about Marriage Builders or his books (I have started reading Her Needs, His Needs). I know she will be skeptical, at least at first. I am also worried about our ability to 15+ hours of UA, but from what I read, that is absolutely critical. I am just scared, because we both work 8-5, she is in the middle of an intense year of school for her MBA that takes at least 9 days a month out of any possibility of being together, not to mention our child. I have read some of the threads regarding how to incorporate 15 hours (and I know Dr. Hadley recommends 20-25 for someone like us, trying to rebuild). I think she will be most skeptical of us committing to 15-20 hours per week of UA, and that scares me.

I wish that we had confronted this a long time ago, but there's no changing that. Sorry, I don't need a response to everything I wrote. But I would be interested in hearing testimonies of love rebuilt after long periods of drought. Thank you for listening to me.

Hi Lou! Welcome to marriage builders. When did she tell you she doesn't love you? Did she tell you she didn't love you when you got married?

Did your wife use the phrase, "I love you, but I am not in love with you?"

I knew we had problems even before we were married. She first told me she was missing the "spark" when we kiss about 4 years ago. She has told me that we are just roommates several times for the last 4-5 years. She finally told me that she "loves me but doesn't love me" last week. She also told me again that we're just roommates. She said she doesn't want to feel this way, and has just to ignore it or will herself to love me for a long time, but can't. After reading about the LB, it's obvious why that didn't work. I'm just worried now that it might be too late. We are meeting with our pastor on Thursday. He had never heard of Dr. Harley before, but he is already looking into his material.

No, we overcame 9 years.
The good news is that if there is no other man in the picture for you to compete with, you have a very good chance of winning her back following this plan. It is very typical for there to be one spouse who is reluctant to follow the plan. I was extremely reluctant.

What would you say your Lovebusters are?
How much time together alone would you say you are getting? Doing what?

Do you have access to all her computers, phones, email addresses, and social networks?

Lou, it very much sounds like she is having an affair. The phrase "I love you but am but am not in love with you" means she has a new point of comparison. People who have affairs rewrite history and often say they have "never been in love" only because they are comparing it to a new love.

Obviously she felt enough about you to marry you so it is unlikely she never loved you.

Don't ask her if she is having an affair, but quietly snoop to rule it in or out. Go do that and come back and we will help you with next steps.

I am very confident she is not having an affair. That is not just my feeling that she would "never do that to me". I have asked questions and investigated. She does not work odd hours. She is always home when she is not at work or in class.

Have you actually investigated? What have you done specifically? She has ample opportunity to have an affair. Most betrayed spouses come here fully believing their spouse "would not do that." Until they investigate, and they are shocked to find out their spouse is having an affair.

We are not confident there is no affair because of the red flags in your post.

That is so encouraging to hear. I do not think there is another man to compete with, only possibly the "idea" of another man.

We haven't went through any worksheets or questionnaires yet, but I think our Love Busters (at least LB's from me to her) are Annoying Habits (I have a terrible habit of sleeping on the couch instead of our bed...I have done this 80% of the time for the last 5 or 6 years. Maybe that is more of an Independent Behavior), possibly Disrespectful Judgments (we have a very hard time talking calmly through problems...it usually ends in a defensive fight), and Independent Behaviors (at night, we go to separate floors and watch separate TV shows).

Regarding UA, we are at an all-time low. Over the first 6 years of our marriage, it may have started at 2-3 hours per week and has dwindled consistently. Now it is hard for me to remember the last time we had alone time, except for a few sexual encounters. Since she started her school (late winter), it is zero. Any time we're together, our daughter is there, too. And usually a TV, a computer and two phones, too. When I write all of this out, it seems miraculous we've remained married this long.

She doesn't try to hide her phone from me, although I don't try to snoop through it. I have always had a very strong trust in her. That has wavered since I heard how she felt. I don't think I know her e-mail password. I don't want to sneak around her back to access those things, so shouldn't I just ask her? I truly don't think she's having an affair, but at least it would not leave any room for question of whether or not something is going on.

No, don't ask her. Just quietly look around. She may not be having an affair. But she might be. The reason you need to check is because your next course of action will greatly depend on whether or not she is. Taking a little time now to verify may save you hours of wasted effort.

That is what you need.

Lou, don't ask her but quietly snoop. You might even put a key logger on her computer to get her password and find out what she is doing. An easy one to install and use is eblaster at spectorsoft.com. It will email you the reports.

Try and get her phone and go through it to read emails and text messages. Check out her phone bill to see if there are a lot of calls to a specific #.

Asking her outright will not be effective. Because if she isn't, she will be offended and if she is having an affair you will have given her the heads up to hide it better.

She is likely having an affair. This reads just like every story I have ready about spouses falling out of love. Get a key logger for the computer and a GPS tracker for the car, and prepare yourself mentally for what you will see. I was once convinced that my wife would never betray me, but took the advice of folks on here and finally got some truth flowing in our marriage.

Lou,

From what you wrote it sounds like she has been in an indirect relationship with someone else possibly for years or the entire duration of your marriage. Does she work and is she close to anyone at work.

Did she have a bad breakup before she met you, or does she still communicate with any ex'es.

Have you checked her messaging on her phone? Is there a number with an unusually high number of calls?

It could also be another female.

As other posters have said it's critical you not let her know what you are doing or it can go deeper underground.

God Bless
Gamma

I have access to her phone. I have access to her e-mail. There is one male acquaintance she's had for 2-3 months from her school, and she has been upfront the whole time. I have seen their texts. I have not seen anything worrisome. She hasn't spoken with her ex's in over a decade (which are pretty much her high school boyfriends).

The only regular people she talks to personally are family and 3 or 4 of her girlfriends, none of whom even live in our area anymore. The only exception is the guy from school, and I have seen their conversations and she has told me about him. She has encouraged me to meet him and his wife and kids so we can actually have friends in a similar situation again. I 100% believe that nothing is going on.

Is it so impossible that she simply tried to hide or run from her feelings for years before finally realizing that it wasn't working? And keep in mind, she didn't come out and say, "I want a divorce". She said we deserve to try to fix it, although right now she does not believe it is fixable.

I also haven't mentioned that I felt the same way she does now about 4 years ago. I confessed this to her a few days ago. I was miserable and wanted a divorce. We were not intimate and I felt trapped. But I figured the best case scenario was to somehow become happy and remain married. It took a long time, but unknowingly, I used some of the Love Deposits and avoided some Love Busters, and now I love her even more than I met her. She used to have angry outbursts at me, but she does not much anymore. That changed when I decided to diffuse conflicts as calmly as possible. We still had problems, but her angry outbursts receded tremendously, and that is one of the biggest turnoffs (Love Withdrawals) for me. I clung to the things she did that made me happy, and here I am. My stomach tingles when I pull into the driveway and see her through the garage door. That never happened the first 4 years of our marriage. I also stopped enjoying kissing her for the longest time, and now I have a desire to have long make-out sessions with her, something we haven't done since we were first dating. I think my experience is why I am so hopeful in this program.

I spoke with her earlier, and she says that she is "not on board". Not in a confrontational way, just being upfront that she does not believe it can be fixed. She sounds willing to try, but this seems like a program that needs commitment and belief from both parties. This begs the question, how do we start this without her believing? How can I start the process of getting her to believe? What are others' experiences with this problem?

So basically the only time you and your wife are alone is time that is spent meeting your emotional needs - there is none spent meeting hers.

This time has got to be massively counterbalanced by some major hours spent in enjoyable conversation with her. Get her out of the house on dates with you fifteen hours a week if she will agree, and talk, talk, talk! If she won't get out with you, spend that time alone with her and talk, talk, talk!

Meanwhile, snoop until you can either prove she is having an affair or prove she is not having one. I was pretty sure my wife was not having an affair, too, but when we were posting here in the early days she was in the process of launching one.

You start by demonstrating what's in it for her. She doesn't have to believe is possible to be fixed in order for it to be fixed. Eliminate all Lovebusters on your part. Start meeting her emotional needs. Demonstrate how the POJA works by following it yourself. Be radically honest.

I suggest you listen real carefully to Markos. He did it.

I worked the whole program without Prisca believing in it, for the most part.

Invite her to go on a date. She may refuse. Invite her anyway. And again tomorrow.

Meanwhile, get into her email. You not having access is very suspicious. Keep in mind that even if she is not having an affair, she is very vulnerable to one. Not only has she been neglected for years, but she is used to privacy. Privacy in marriage is an invitation for an affair. You need access in order to PREVENT an affair just as much as to verify that there isn't one.

I will stay vigilant regarding her external relationships. The first hurdle will be to get her to really honestly focus on the "homework" at the start of this. Even though I've been married to her for 8 years, with all of these problems, I can't honestly say I know all of her Emotional Needs or Love Busters.

If I can learn these things, I will pour everything I have into filling these needs in a way that I also enjoy.

For anyone that came back from not loving your SO, what were your first positive experiences with this program? What was the first sensation of a Love Deposit?

Does she have male friends? Tell us about these.

I would arrange to drop in at school some day by surprise and see how their relationship looks in person. From what you've described here, she is already engaging in intimate conversation with this man. EVERYTHING you are describing here is a red flag. NOTHING you mention makes it any less likely that this is an affair.

Do not take the focus off of the affair and put it onto meeting emotional needs. That doesn't work.

Focus on the 4 intimate emotional needs -- affection, Intimate Conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. These are the emotional needs that make people fall in love.

Why is she texting with this guy?

They mainly text regarding class assignments. This MBA class is almost entirely group oriented. You are in the same group of 4-5 people for the entire 1 year program, taking all of the core classes together (the entire cohort has to take those classes together). He is in her group. And they are the two "leaders" of the group - i.e. when there is a group paper due, they ensure that everyone has equal work and all of the work will cover the assignment.

Like I said, the majority of the texts are class-oriented, and the remainder aren't flirty in any way, just brief updates on other things that are going on (nothing intensely personal, just like "how is Atlanta?" since one knows the other is in Atlanta for business). And the texts are not daily. In fact, they sometimes go a week or more without texts. She never runs off with her phone, and she never tries to hide it from me. I will keep a close eye, and I will ask her again how exactly she feels when she talks to him. I understand that even though nothing physical may be going on, she could be growing closer just through conversation meeting her needs. And I understand that our program will have no hope if that continues.

I'm sure you think I have my head the in sand, but I'm not trying to, anyway. I have checked her phone and her e-mail before without her knowing.

Perhaps I should ask her to limit the personal texts with him?

Don't ask her how she feels when she talks to him. As MelodyLane explained, that kind of thing will never get you an honest answer if she has feelings for him, and will offend her if she doesn't.

Work and class provide plenty of opportunity for pursuing an affair. Don't assume it can't be happening based on the notion that she doesn't have the time.

Why does she communicate with him about non-class related things? Colleagues in business or school ought to stick to business or school.

Lou, it sounds like Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce read your question on the Marriage Builders Radio show today. Take a listen to the rebroadcast and see what they said.

This is very suspicious. "How is Atlanta?" is, indeed, a personal question. She is getting her need for conversation met by this man.

Thanks, I will listen to that later. It looks like it is always streaming, so I'll just need to listen to the whole hour to find it?

So what should I do?

I think you need to get some software on her phone/PC and get more exact information about what is going on. I also think you need to show up unannounced at school one day. I also think you should get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and GPS in her car and find out exactly where all she goes.

You need to know what she's doing with this guy when she thinks you aren't looking.

Or if you have a smart phone you can download the radio app and fast forward / rewind to find it that way.

It's available for iPhone and And Android

Thanks for the support. I feel really iffy snooping on her like that, especially GPS. Like I said, I have access to her texts and emails. I have her password. I have been watching. I am conflicted because I feel strongly if anything, she is just getting a conversational need filled. But I feel like that should stop while we're going through this.

Prisca, if I may ask, how did you feel throughout the process? What were your thoughts when he told you about it (assuming he researched it and started it)? How did it feel early on when he engaged in these conversations with you while you didn't love him? How did your emotions start to change? How long did it take? Right now I am bothering her with my conversations, but they definitely aren't fulfilling her emotional needs, only mine (I am looking for comfort because am absolutely crushed right now).

Lou,

There is also good news if there is an affair or not you should be able to re-establish romantic love in your marriage.

Read up on this website and some of the MB books.

You may have to accept that your W never really loved you and that you have to start from almost zero again in the romance department.

That was one of the things my W after I had blundered into MB, was that she never felt the same about me for the 20+ years of our marriage after her pre-marriage affair with OM2. It's not easy to swallow all the wasted years.

God Bless
Gamma

To bring this around, you are going to have to do some things you don't feel like doing, regardless of how you feel about it, and regardless of how your wife feels about it. Like Prisca said, you need to find out what she's doing with this guy when she thinks you aren't watching.


She hated it and she fought me tooth and nail and she did everything she could possibly do to make me stop.


You are getting way ahead of yourself. Anyway, the "how" is described in Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts and explanation of the Love Bank.


Felt like forever. It certainly didn't start changing before the truth of the affair was revealed.

Now, back to doing what you need to do - get that GPS.


Actually, if those conversations aren't full of demands, disrespect, or anger, they are making love bank deposits. She won't like that while your balance in her love bank is negative, because she doesn't like you. But they are still making deposits, so don't stop.

His Needs Her Needs describes four friends of good conversation and four enemies of good conversation. You should review all eight of these daily, and practice the four friends and avoiding the four enemies daily. Spend fifteen hours a week doing this.

Have you listened to the show yet?

Dr. Harley addressed this letter at the 40 minute 30 second time mark.

What do you think an emotional affair is? Conversation is how people fall in love. There is no"just" here. This is a very dangerous road she is on. If you're lucky, it's just in the blossoming stage and you've caught it early.

You need to know what she is saying to him when she thinks you are not looking.

I hated him for trying and I made his life hell. I thought it was pointless, that I would never love him again. I didn't WANT to love him again. I certainly did NOT want to go on dates with him. I just wanted him to leave me alone and let me do my own thing.

First, the OM had to be removed from the picture. My love bank was closed to Markos until that happened.

Then he diligently, patiently made love bank deposits and avoided Lovebusters until he pushed me over the romantic threshold. It was a slow process for us because he kept slipping up with Lovebusters. Do it well, and you could be in love again within 6 months.

But that will not work if there is another man meeting her emotional needs. You will only be spinning your wheels. It is crucial that you snoop on her and find out just how serious this man is.

Some huge red flags here. Opposite sex friendships are exactly how affairs start. I am particularly suspicious about the one with the wife and kids she wanted you meet. That is a pretty common tactic to throw off suspicion.

"Thanks for the support. I feel really iffy snooping on her like that, especially GPS. Like I said, I have access to her texts and emails. I have her password. I have been watching. I am conflicted because I feel strongly if anything, she is just getting a conversational need filled. But I feel like that should stop while we're going through this."

Getting her needs met by another man is how romances start. It is critical that you put spyware and gps on her phone so you can see what is going on when she thinks you are not looking. If she is having an affair she will routinely delete texts and emails so you can't see them.

You can't go by your feelings here because they will mislead you. You need to go by facts and evidence. The future of your marriage depends on it.

Thank you everyone for your support. I am going to listen to the radio broadcast now.

I just listened to podcast. Thank you so much, Dr. Bill and Joyce Harley, for responding to my post. I didn't dream of getting a direct response. I will say that she is at least willing to spend more time with me. We have a date this Friday, something that sounds really fun. She wants it to work, she wishes it wasn't this way, but she just doesn't see hope. The other misunderstanding from my initial post is that I have been "in love" the whole time. I have not. Honestly, I was in much worse shape than she was until a couple of years ago when I unknowingly applied some MB principles and fell in love with her again.

markos, how did you give affection regularly if she didn't want it? I know I have only just started this process, so maybe things will change a little soon, but she is in no mood for hugs or any other close contact with me.

You might have to redefine what affection is. Affection is simply an expression of care. It conveys the message "I care about you". Think of it on those terms and I'll bet you can come up with all kinds of ideas. For example, my wife considers it affection when I ask her about her day and listen to her problems.

Read Here

I think I have gotten to the bottom of the guy friend. No physical affair, but she is at the beginnings of an emotional one. I read all of their texts for the last month (verified none were deleted by checking phone bill). There is nothing extremely personal, but a lot of stuff that is beyond the scope of their school requirements, even when they're talking about school. Just too friendly. I have talked to her about it, and she has read Basic Concepts now. She says she is not attracted to him but she admits she is getting joy from their conversations. That's all I know right now.

She is seriously considering asking for us to separate for now. I am terrified of this. What is MB's view of separation? I have tried some searches of articles and discussion forums, but I haven't found anything particularly direct. Other marriage crisis services seem to almost encourage separation, to allow both parties to "think it through". This seems to go against the grain of UA and Love Deposits.

It makes it much harder to save your marriage if you are separated. You can't fix a marriage if you are not there. I would continue to keep your eyes peeled and quietly watch her without letting her know.

This man is meeting your wife's need for conversation and that is how affairs start.

Lou, if she asks for a separation, I would not cooperate. Of course, you cannot stop her from moving out, but you don't have to go along with it. And I would certainly not agree to a pretend in house "separation" where one spouse moves into the guest room, pronounces herself "separated" and feels entitled to date others. That is a nightmare.

Separation would be a terrible idea. How can you work on your marriage if you are apart? A separation is likely to just make things worse!



You need to be focused on fixing this thing, not separating.



You need to be in plan A right now. And she needs to give up her guy "friend".

Read What are Plan A and Plan B?

This is how to recover your marriage:
Read Here

Going completely without contact with that guy right now is almost not an option, at least form her perspective. He is in her group, a group which she must be a part of through Decemeber in order to graduate. If she doesn't graduate, she will lose her job, which is a very good one for us (good pay, low & flexible hours). They gave her a promotion with the expectation that she would complete this degree. They are also paying $40,000 for it.

All of that makes it really difficult to have no contact with him, and that is considering the fact that she is not on board with trying to fix things right now. Considering that, there's no way contact will stop completely with him right now.

You can offer affection even when she declines. The point is you are showing willingness.

Dr. Harley defines affection as a symbol of care. When a lady receives flowers and loves them it's not that she loves flowers so much - it's that it's a symbol of the care the man shows for her. The actual care has to be there, though, or the symbol will have no meaning. So if you look through the list of affectionate acts Dr. Harley gives that one lady made for her husband:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html
... you'll see that in addition to more symbolic acts, there are also more concrete acts: helping her clean up after dinner, calling her to let her know when he's coming home, etc.

So:
* include both concrete and symbolic acts of care
* continue to offer affection daily

Eventually she will appreciate it when your balance in your account in her love bank rises.

MEANWHILE, don't let any of this distract you from the all-important task of uncovering the specifics of her relationships with other men!

So she will keep you around to take care of her until she finishes her high paying degree and then she can take off for greener pastures with her MBA contacts. Sweet deal for her.

That's all we need to know to know that she is having an emotional affair. If you continue to tolerate it, your marriage will not survive.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

Well she doesn't have to be a co-leader of the group with him. And they don't have to talk about unrelated things. Your wife is threatening to separate from you if you don't let her have her relationship with this man. Your wife realizes she doesn't love you anymore because she has a new point of comparison with this guy. She is developing feelings for him and now suddenly realizes "Hey, I don't feel that way about Lou". If this goes on till December, she will separate from you to continue her relationship with him because she will be in love if she isn't already.

I have not read the book. What do you mean by "tolerating"? I have found the truth, confronted her in a respectful manner, and she agrees with what I say, that we can't get better while something like that is going on. But what am I supposed to do now? Demand that she cease? I have already said everything I can say without resorting to anger or demands.

You are Tolerating her having an Affair by not taking crucial steps to blow it apart.

If you do not try to break up her affair, then you are in essence condoning and accepting it.

Get the SAA book and learn it..... Now.

It will not do you, your marriage or your family any good if she earns all that extra money, but winds up with another guy to share it with.

Your conversations are meaningless to a Wayward because they are too buried in their self-entitlement stage
LTL

We met with a pastor at our church today, just to talk. I have never felt so empty and hopeless. This is the worst hour of my life

Lou, please tell us everything about the visit and we can tell you if it is hopeless or not. It probably is not.

So sorry to hear this, Lou, but I'm not surprised.
Get the book Surviving An Affair and start reading it. You can download it off of amazon and start reading tonight.
Whatever you do, do not cooperate with any of her schemes to separate. Do not leave your home. Stay and fight for your marriage.

Yes, do tell us what happened. So far, I see a LOT of hope for you.

Not a lot of new information came out. I have been optimistic all week (except for the mornings). But today was the clearest she has indicated that she doesn't think it is fixable. She wants me to respect her decisions. She has agreed to 2 or 3 therapy sessions. I emphasized that she can't judge how this will go based on a few sessions. This will take time, with me, to change. I shared with her again some of the stories I have heard here. I shared again how enlightening this information has been looking back at our relationship - when it was good (which was not for very long) and why it slowly degraded.

I am in complete despair at the moment. I still think building love with MB principles is logical, but it is really hard to believe in logic right now. I am just hoping I can sleep through the night, which I haven't done in a week.

Hi Lou, we can help you but it is really important that you don't despair and that you pay close attention.

I would avoid therapy at all cost because that will likely spelll the end of your marriage. If the "therapist" suggests separation or divorce, your marriage is likely over. And most therapists are so destructive to marriage that there is a strong chance of that happening. [we see this all the time] When that happens it will be 10x harder to save your marriage. Marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. We regularly see the fallout from their horrendous advice on this forum. They are typically little more than divorce facilitators because they do not know how to save a marriage. They don't have the slightest idea how to save your marriage.

We can help you save your marriage, Lou, if you don't cooperate in the destructive plan of your wife. Here is what we need you to do:

1. stop going to "therapy" because it will make the situation worse

2. be as loving and kind as possible to your wife. If she has complaints about you, then take them seriously

3. don't cooperate with any "separation" or divorce schemes. Just say "no thanks."

4. snoop like a blood hound and don't get caught

If you will do those things, I predict you will save your marriage with our help.

I am going to reiterate that there is someone else in her life and you need to diligently dig that out. Once you dig that out, we can dramatically change the dynamics of this situation because we will help oyu run him off. If he is out of her life, she will have no reason to leave and every reason to stay and work on her marriage.

In the words of Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders:

here

Lou519,

I still think it could be someone from her deep past compared to whom you were 2nd choice, but he was unavailable or had problems. This current OM would then be a symptom of the disease caused by the first OM.

God Bless
Gamma

Go to your doctor and ask him to put you on antidepressants short term. They will help you remain calm and keep a level head to do what you need to do to save your marriage. Dr. Harley often recommends this. It's what got Markos through.

Here is your show.
Radio Clip of Lou519's Show

Lou,

It is my understanding that you called OM and spoke with him telling him to back off on texting and calling your wife. I'm telling you it is very likely he will tell your wife you called him and she will be irate. She will act like it was the straw that broke the camel's back. She will be angry.

Your marriage can survive her anger.

What's really important is what you do next. Her anger is partially designed to manipulate you to keep your mouth shut and punish you for interfering with her inappropriate relationship. You must NOT fall for this. You MUST without fanfare or any forewarning call or meet with, if you can, OM's wife and calmly (very important to be calm and rational sounding since they will later call you crazy) tell her...

"I just thought you should be aware, I recently contacted and talked with your husband about the quantity and context of his personal texts and communications with my wife and asked him, man to man, to back off. He chose instead to call my wife and tell her about our conversation and portray me as some crazy jealous possessive husband. Since your husband decided my wife should be aware, I thought it fair that you should be aware of your husband's behavior as well. It is my understanding that they are just friends, however, the level and extent of their friendship makes me uncomfortable and the fact she (and they) won't end it upon my rational and logical calm objections is a pretty strong indication TO ME, that their relationship is to some extent inappropriate. I apologize in advance for involving you. Maybe you won't be as concerned but if you want to discuss, compare or see any of the documents supporting the fact they texted over _____ times in the last 120 days, escalating to _____ texts in the last 30 days along with emails and other social media communications, all you need to do is ask. To be clear, as of now I am not accusing nor have I seen any evidence indicating they kissed, hugged, shared loving feelings or anything more than an inappropriate over the top friendship that making me suspicious of intentions and very uncomfortable"

You may actually need to email that to her instead, if you can, and maybe include a copy of your cell phone bill or something to help support your credibility (since you WILL be called a crazy jealous neglectful possessive abusive husband).


Again...OM telling your wife about you calling him up is completely a sign that he cares way too much about your wife's thoughts, feelings and her marriage. If he truly cared about HIS wife the same way...he'd keep his mouth shut. The fact he thinks calling your wife is OK demonstrates his over involvement in your marriage and if you don't call him on it...you are letting him "win" your wife's feelings over towards him as he is demonstrating an over the top level of care for her to the detriment of his own marriage and family. OM needs something more and better to worry about than your wife...he needs to deal with HIS wife and try to explain this situation to her and he needs to know you aren't to be trifled with...if the guy wants to pursue other women than his wife, getting yours isn't going to be a cakewalk.

Good luck

They did talk about it because they have to meet. Their group (of only 5) meets every Monday, and they're in the middle of a project emergency. He said he was very confused about the call and showed his wife the texts. She also probably thinks I'm crazy. But my wife was not mad long. I explained to her exactly why I did it, and she says she understands. It's only been a couple of days since the call, but the texts have slowed down tremendously.

I learned everything I could learn, and all evidence points to him thinking it was harmless friendship. I am out of snooping power at this point, anyway. She has changed her passwords and is moving into an apartment later this month.

Who cares what he thinks? Who cares what he calls their relationship? All that matters is that it is destroying your marriage.

You need to talk to her yourself. Mr.Wondering provided a wonderful template for you to use.

Have you read SAA yet?

QFT

1. Expose to OM's wife (that does not mean you let someone else tell her)
2. Call POSOM and DEMAND he end contact. DEMAND he never call her again. Nobody cares if he thinks it's harmless.
3. Expose to her parents, school officials, and her employers who are paying for this, friends, clergy, and anyone else in her life. 4. Read SAA
5. Go back and listen to your show daily, and listen to the new shows daily.

People have brought their marriages back from far, FAR worse than this, but you have to act! If you want your little girl to grow up with both a mommy and a daddy, then act!

Listen to this.

Nothing is harmless about this friendship.

Last year, mrsEureka took a plate of cookies to her work. She was working on recipes for a baking contest, and left a notepad with the cookies for people to write comments on. One of the men there though he was being clever, and wrote "Will you marry me" on the notepad. Let me just say that this side of DDay, you don't mess with the Eurekas. That guy now takes a wide circle around my wife.

It doesn't matter what other people think. Strong boundaries are tangible evidence of the extraordinary care that marriage partners have pledged to one another.

So my wife is officially moving out in two weeks. Moving into an apartment 5 miles away. There is no infidelity, so Plan A and B don't seem to be an option. I can't find any information here for what Dr. Harley recommends for a situation like mine - wife thinks it's over, but wants some time to figure it out. I resisted separation but she was adamant. I am learning about my LBs towards her and avoiding them at all costs. She does not want to spend time alone with me right now, but I am taking any chance she gives me to have a positive interaction with her, to listen to what's going on with her. But what do I do once she has moved out? She has agreed to go to church on Sundays with me, so I will do everything I can to make sure we have that time together. I'm also going to suggest that we do something after church every week, but I don't want to pressure too much too soon.

So what are the thoughts on non-infidelity separation at MB?

My thoughts are that this will be the FIRST time in my 13 years on this board that a wife has "separated" when there is not an affair. This is a major anomaly! A board record of sorts.

What is her stance on dating while separated?

Lou, at this point your best bet is to hire a PI and get evidence of their affair.
Dont believe your "trusting feelings" that they arent having one.
Get evidence and then come back here.

In the meantime, Dr. Harley would encourage you to enter Plan A.

Also, if she moves DO NOT HELP HER MOVE.

EDIT: Also, don't tell your wife that you have a thread in the Forum.

here

You are being gaslighted to the extreme and due to your lack of digging hard enough, she WILL spin such a beautiful romantic love story about how her NEW White Knight came to her rescue AFTER your marriage was only a marriage on a piece of paper.

You have 2 weeks!!!

What will you do to defeat this apparent affair?

Sit back and wait and let her romantic fable evolve,

Or,

Put spyware on her cell phone, a gps tracker on her vehicle, VAR's in her car and other areas she goes for "Privacy", put a keylogger on her computer she uses, and hire a PI?

Your choice. It's your marriage dissolving before your very own eyes.

LTL

Here is an article by Dr. Harley himself, posted on this website, where he acknowledges (at the beginning of his article) that not all separations involve infidelity.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Like I said before, I snooped and read through a month and a half of texts and while they are beyond the purely professional level, there was really nothing that surprised me. I confirmed that none had been deleted by checking them against her phone records. Also, I confronted the other man about the excessive texting. The texts (at least on the phone that I know about) have slowed down significantly, but not completely (like I would expect if she had a "cheat" phone). Her attitude towards me has improved somewhat since that time (about 2 weeks ago). She is not quite as distant. She stopped locking me out of the bedroom.

I am not sure what you have read that makes you think you are the exception to this comment:


And maybe you are the first instance in my 13 years on this board. Who knows. But the spy techniques you have employed are not thorough and are not convincing in the least. Even the dumbest wayward knows how to avoid using a phone [that her spouse has full access to] to carry on her affair. This is not surprising. But it doesn't sound like you have tried other methods.

Wouldn't it be terrible if you spun your wheels taking futile steps when there was an affair the entire time?

Lou,

In another thread you wrote, She finally told me that she "loves me but doesn't love me" last week.

And in the same thread you spoke about your W going to classes, given the killer statement above, it seems your W is involved with one of her teachers or a fellow student. I think you will find your answer at her school.

I believe you mentioned that her behavior changed for the worse when she started attending school, because another risk factor is starting to associate with a new group of people.

God Bless
Gamma

Women who consider separation *without* an affair will spend years pleading their husband to change. "Figure it out" means she is deciding on another man.

This is true. We typically have to beg to persuade neglected, abused women to leave their husbands. It is a very difficult feat to get such a woman to move out. Even women who are being beaten up don't want to leave. They believe if they just try a little harder, their husbands will change.

The only ones we have seen volunteer to move out are those in an affair. Because otherwise there is no reason to leave. It makes no sense for her to leave unless she is having an affair. That is the only thing that makes sense.