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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
For the past 3 weeks, she has been everything I could ask for in terms of showing regret, apologetic, meeting my EN, answering every single one of my questions,

Uh-huh. My ex did this too. He also sobbed while watching the infidelity video here on MB.


Quote
and even told me that on 5/16, she drove 3 hrs to see him in another city, they talked for 2 hrs, but had ajoining hotel rooms and nothing physical happened other than an awkward kiss, and she went to see him to show off how good she looks now, and didn't think anything was going to happen then maybe a kiss. Also confessed in 2007, she drove an hr to another city when he flew through and they had dinner, went on a tour, hike and shared a kiss.

You know that this is not true, right? People in affairs who meet up at hotel rooms don't just "kiss". I can't tell you how many people show up here and have been told a similar story by the WS. She didn't just kiss him the second time either.

Poly.



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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
He has eliminated all forms of contact.

I am very confused because you just told us this:

Originally Posted by Hopeful79
She has gotten rid of her personal e-mail accounts, we blocked his phone from our numbers, as well as linked-in, he's not on facebook, and I have access to her facebook account. She's willing to get a new number, but we haven't got around to it yet.

If she is on FB and has the same number then you haven't eliminated forms of contact. Blocking is not adequate. It doesn't matter if he isn't on FB - it takes 2 seconds to open a profile. Besides, it isn't safe for her to be on FB. She has already shown you that.

Dr Harley addresses this in his BASIC EP list.

Quote
_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts ; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).




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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
We are in IC for me to work out some of my issues with this affair, and also to deal with her self esteem; strong need for affirmation; inability to set boundaries; to deal with some of her demons. We are committed to the SAA plan as a plan for recover.

IC is not going to help you with your issues with the affair. It will just keep you triggered and counselors have a history of giving advice that conflicts with MB advise.

IC is not going to help your WW with self esteem issues. I spoke to Dr Harley about this EXACT topic regarding my ex and he told me IC would not help him with self esteem. Again, this would be a distraction and most likely she will get advice that conflicts with MB.

All the tools you need are right HERE.

If you two want further help, some things you can do:
~Write to the radio show and get advice from Dr Harley himself.
~Use one of the Harley kids by clicking on "Coaching Center" at the top of the page.



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I agree with SusieQ about the poly.

Schedule a poly today Polygraph Testing


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Dr Harley on IC:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I do not believe that counseling to improve self-esteem, apart from showing people how to be successful, ever really improves self-esteem.

The approach that I use to save marriages looks at the present and future for solutions. I encourage you not to worry about your husband's past, his self-esteem or whether or not he loves himself.
Here


More:

Quote
"Some counselors think it's a good idea to "resolve issues of the past" by talking about them week after week, month after month, year after year. It keeps these counselors in business, but does nothing to resolve the issue. In fact, it usually makes their poor clients chronically depressed.

My experience as a Clinical Psychologist has proven to me that dredging up unpleasant experiences of the past merely brings the unhappiness of the past into the present. The problems of the present are difficult enough to solve without spending time and energy trying to resolve issues of the past, which are essentially unresolvable. You can make your future happy, but you can't do a thing about bad experiences of the past, except think and talk about them -- and that makes the bad experiences of the past, bad experiences of the present." Dr. Willard Harley

here

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An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.
here

Quote
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.


Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.



I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational.
here

[/quote]


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We exposed to friends & family this weekend. All were shocked as we have always seemed like a very strong couple, especially with who the OP was as he was definitely a scumbag in every sense. But all were supportive and wish us the best. Talked about poly and she's willing, I haven't made up my mind yet. Understand the lies & deceit making it tough, but I do believe her right now that there isn't anything else that haven't being told. She also agreed to the STD testing, again, something that we haven't done yet due to the stress of everyday life, and the fact that we are moving this week is making this a little tougher.

I do view the 3 ONS & recent A to be two separate incidences, and don't think those dark time will return. Though the underlying issue is that she lacked boundaries and there was no EP in place, and lived an independent life, but I have to believe that she was/is mostly a good person, someone who loved me & I love.

And I misspelled above saying "He has eliminated all forms of contact", I meant to say "She". I don't think she will as there is no withdrawal, or real thought of being with him. We talked further and believe she was looking for closure due to the emotional abuse she suffered during the 5 years of their relationship, and NEEDED to feel like it wasn't her, and when he called, she wanted to lead him a little, and got addicted to him stating how much he regretted it, and then panicked and was trying to get out at the end. Unfortunately made the really bad decision that sleeping with him once and then trying to gently break things off would placate him and not have him blow everything up in her face. Obviously worst decision of her life, and I see that regret everyday.

It's being up and down, but today was a really bad day for both of us. Anger at her is subsiding, but the pain felt fresh this afternoon, had a long talk, and she vomited from the guilt & disgust at what she did.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, both WW & I are committed to get past this. There are really good times when we are talking, working out, and generally spending time together, SF has been like when we first started dating if not more so, but it seems like this dark cloud is always over us & threatens to downpour at anytime with no warning.



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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
She also agreed to the STD testing, again, something that we haven't done yet due to the stress of everyday life, and the fact that we are moving this week is making this a little tougher.


...........
SF has been like when we first started dating if not more so, but it seems like this dark cloud is always over us & threatens to downpour at anytime with no warning.

Well, hopefully you wont die from the sex (AIDS, etc)

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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
I do view the 3 ONS & recent A to be two separate incidences, and don't think those dark time will return. Though the underlying issue is that she lacked boundaries and there was no EP in place, and lived an independent life, but I have to believe that she was/is mostly a good person, someone who loved me & I love.

And I misspelled above saying "He has eliminated all forms of contact", I meant to say "She". I don't think she will as there is no withdrawal, or real thought of being with him. We talked further and believe she was looking for closure due to the emotional abuse she suffered during the 5 years of their relationship, and NEEDED to feel like it wasn't her, and when he called, she wanted to lead him a little, and got addicted to him stating how much he regretted it, and then panicked and was trying to get out at the end. Unfortunately made the really bad decision that sleeping with him once and then trying to gently break things off would placate him and not have him blow everything up in her face. Obviously worst decision of her life, and I see that regret everyday.


Sir, I'm confused...did she write a letter of no contact as explained in Surviving an Affair?
At this point, you need to focus on following the book and not examining why she needed closure from him. Such tal is a waste of your time and a hinderance to recovery

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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by Hopeful79
For the past 3 weeks, she has been everything I could ask for in terms of showing regret, apologetic, meeting my EN, answering every single one of my questions,

Uh-huh. My ex did this too. He also sobbed while watching the infidelity video here on MB.


Quote
and even told me that on 5/16, she drove 3 hrs to see him in another city, they talked for 2 hrs, but had ajoining hotel rooms and nothing physical happened other than an awkward kiss, and she went to see him to show off how good she looks now, and didn't think anything was going to happen then maybe a kiss. Also confessed in 2007, she drove an hr to another city when he flew through and they had dinner, went on a tour, hike and shared a kiss.

You know that this is not true, right? People in affairs who meet up at hotel rooms don't just "kiss". I can't tell you how many people show up here and have been told a similar story by the WS. She didn't just kiss him the second time either.

Poly.

I agree; it sounds like she is just blowing the "foghorn" at you; a polygraph would give you the honest answers you need.

Is there a reason why you dont want her to take one?

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Has she written a NC letter?
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent
How Affairs Should End


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
Talked about poly and she's willing, I haven't made up my mind yet. Understand the lies & deceit making it tough, but I do believe her right now that there isn't anything else that haven't being told.


If she's willing, then there's no reason to waiver. "Believing" a known liar is not a good reason to skip the test. Many BS's here WANT to believe their WS. That's the normal....BS denial is a huge problem on these forums. It is a great big job many of us have getting people to snoop and/or continue to snoop once they are told the affair is over.

As we tell people often, you are the least objective person on this thread. Why? Because you love your W and want this R. Trust us, there are HUGE red flags in your WW's story and it would be CRAZY to just sweep it under the rug and blindly trust someone who has been untrustworthy for many years of your marriage.


Quote
She also agreed to the STD testing, again, something that we haven't done yet due to the stress of everyday life, and the fact that we are moving this week is making this a little tougher.

Again, I understand that you are going through a lot - most of us are - but this is a priority. This is your health we are talking about, and besides, you need to get these things DONE and OVER with so that you can move on to rebuilding your marriage!



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Originally Posted by Hopeful79
I do view the 3 ONS & recent A to be two separate incidences, and don't think those dark time will return. Though the underlying issue is that she lacked boundaries and there was no EP in place, and lived an independent life, but I have to believe that she was/is mostly a good person, someone who loved me & I love.

With all due respect, Hopeful, this is concerning and shows me that you do not understand Dr Harley's teachings about affairs. Whether she is a "good" person or whether she "loves" you is completely irrelevant to why she had the affair and whether she will do it again. Dr Harley says that anyone can have an affair under certain conditions.

The fact is that your W had four affairs which indicates a need and desire to get her needs met outside of marriage and had a long history of leading a SSL. If she was radically honest none of the affairs would have happened.

I am seeing big red flags that she hasn't completely given up her secret second life and that's why we are encouraging you to do a poly. If she passes, then great. You can put that behind you and move forward. It's not worth the risk to just skip this step.

Quote
And I misspelled above saying "He has eliminated all forms of contact", I meant to say "She". I don't think she will as there is no withdrawal, or real thought of being with him. We talked further and believe she was looking for closure due to the emotional abuse she suffered during the 5 years of their relationship, and NEEDED to feel like it wasn't her, and when he called, she wanted to lead him a little, and got addicted to him stating how much he regretted it, and then panicked and was trying to get out at the end. Unfortunately made the really bad decision that sleeping with him once and then trying to gently break things off would placate him and not have him blow everything up in her face.

None of this negates the need for her to change her phone number and to close her FB account or send a NCL. There is a reason that Dr Harley has a published list of EPs. We don't say to people "Please demonstrate your WS's remorse and seriousness about recovery and then we can tell you which EPs to pick from this list".

Your WS's remorse and seriousness about recovery is, in fact, demonstrated by her willingness to put these precautions into place. These EPs not only protect your M from further affairs, they help to ease the distress of the BS and they provide JUST COMPENSATION.



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Originally Posted by SusieQ
These EPs not only protect your M from further affairs, they help to ease the distress of the BS and they provide JUST COMPENSATION.

Hopeful, I have seen over the years many BS just want to sweep the affair proofing part of MB under the rug and just get to the meeting needs and avoiding lovebusters part. It doesn't work. Resentment lingers and the marriage will not be restored.

Please read HPB's thread on EPs: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2374198

As well as the article on JC, which he addresses in the first few posts:

Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I want to share some thoughts about Just Compensation first, remembering that EP�s ARE a part of this idea of Just Compensation.

I believe "just compensation" was created by Dr. Harley to help us waywards understand that our offense is not a "forgive and forget" type of offense. Actions are required!


Quoting Dr. Harley:

"I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated."

Entire article ---> Here


When an insurance company pays you for a home that was lost from a devastating fire, this would be compensation. It is all they can offer you. They cannot restore your memories, photos, collectibles, treasures, or the security you always felt prior to the fire. You would also feel no obligation to drop on your knees and say thank you to your insurance company for the compensation either. It may even feel cold that they are paying you for something you can never get back again. But, it is what they must do regardless.

I can never offer Just (as in justice) Compensation for my affair, because it can never really be more than just (merely) compensation. But, I must offer it just the same if I am going to be part of the marriage recovery of today and tomorrow.


Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
When discussing EPs, Dr. Harley addresses that the following areas need to change:

A) Blocking all communication with Affair Partners (AP�s)
B) Accounting for all of your time
C) Accounting for all money
D) Spending your leisure time with your wife.

EP�s are put into place to protect your spouse.

Protection = Care

EP�s are also designed to ELIMINATE the opportunity to have a secret second life.
<clip>


I hope that you can see the difference here between Dr Harley's approach and the IC that we were discourage you from (which I didn't fail to notice you didn't address in your post).

What I am seeing in your description of your and your WW's attempts to fix this marriage is to "talk" through these issues and to "believe" in your love and goodness in each other and for her to demonstrate her remorse to you through communication. That's a typical IC approach.

MB is all about demonstrating care and protection for each other through ACTIONS.


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Your post can be summarised as "I'm glad she seems willing and I just want to have back what I thought I had"

Very natural but not good enough. You need to make something much, much better. Something backed up with verification and an end to the bad old days of trust. The bad old days using the fairy tale belief that 'bad' people have affairs, 'good' people do not and love will save the day.

Lots of good people in love betray and are betrayed. Work the plan!


Last edited by indiegirl; 07/23/14 03:11 AM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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