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#2811743 07/23/14 07:24 AM
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I'm brand new to this forum, so forgive me for not knowing the acronyms and customary information to provide. I have a friend who has confided in me some shocking information about her personal life. My friend is a 50 year old female, married to the same man for 25 years, elementary school teacher, successful in her career, upper middle class, attends church each week, 2 wonderful kids in college, and had a great upbringing by Godly parents. Her husband is a devoted, good guy, however, he's emotionally challenged and socially very introverted. He has great difficulty expressing or hearing emotional feedback. She married him thinking he would change.

After 10 years of a happy marriage, she felt the need to bring closure with an old boyfriend from her dating days. This old boyfriend was her one true love but because there was never an opportunity for them to truly connect given she was about 5 years older, the relationship never blossomed and never closed properly in her view. She initiated contact with him and he was receptive in an effort to bring closure. For 2 years, they spoke almost daily via the phone or email. They met face to face on several occasions. There was no sexual contact but there was kissing and embracing. Finally, she felt the closure had been accomplished. She also felt shame and regret due to this secret relationship. She revealed the contact with this old flame to her husband without the knowledge of the boyfriend. Her husband was destroyed by the revelation from this great hurt. Nevertheless, they sought counseling which she found helpful but less so for him. For several years, the husband was depressed and withdrawn emotionally from her even more so than before. During those years, she delved into the internet world where she met many men in chat rooms and had sexual conversations. Ultimately she met many of these men .... upwards of 25 different men with whom she had sexual contact. Probably at least 50 different encounters with these men. She had intercourse with about 6 of them on several different occasions, some of which were repeats. She has confided that she feels great shame and regret for her actions. In the past 8 years, she has not had any face to face encounters with these or other men. She has continued to dabble in the internet world but only for "mindless fun" as she calls it. I'm confident she's telling the truth in this respect. She says the reason for all these adulterous relationships was that she needed emotional fulfillment, relational intimacy, and sexual intimacy. None of these things were available from her husband.

The dilema for me is how to encourage her as a friend. After what she went thru with her husband the first time for exposing a relationship that by comparison was quite mild compared to her later affairs, she can't bring herself to reveal her numerous sordid affairs to her husband. She can't bear the pain and hurt it would cause him let alone her family. I expect it would truly be devastating to her husband, kids, parents, and close friends if this was revealed. So what do I say to her? How do I encourage her?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Hi walls4us, welcome to Marriage Builders. It is great that you care enough about your friend to make such inquiries. The most caring and loving thing you can do is help your friend stop her self destructive behavior. What she is doing is more destructive than a heroin or painkiller addiction. In her case, there are obvious victims, ie: her husband, children and the wives and children of her adultery partners.

And how do you stop her? You print your post and take it to her husband and family. LEt them all know. What is hurting them is the secrecy. They cannot protect themselves from her destructive behavior if they don't know what she is doing.

If others know, they can hold her accountable. For example, if her husband decides to stay married to her, he could make it a precaution that she stay off computers since this is a condition that leads to her affairs. Her family and friends can help her stop this self destructive behavior.

I am sure you really care about your friend, and the way to demonstrate that care is to help her stop hurting herself and others. Keeping her secret is harmful to everyone. It helps no one and nothing other than her affairs because affairs thrive on secrecy. As her friend, you can help bring this to an end.

This is vital information about her husband's life that is being cruelly withheld from him. He has a right to know what she is doing to him behind his back so he can protect himself. He may choose to not stay married to a very promisicuous serial cheater and that should be his right, don't you think?

To deny him the right to make informed decisions about his own life is cruel and manipulative. Please don't be a part of that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by walls40us
How do I encourage her?

Another way to encourage her after you have exposed her affairs to her husband and children is to tell her you can't be her friend until she stops having affairs. Her faithless, shameful behavior precludes her as "friend" material.

Does your own husband know what she does?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Think of your friend as a heroin addict. The best thing you can do for her is to not keep her secret for her. Expose her affairs to her husband so that the addiction can be broken.


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Walls,

Your friend is putting her BH, betrayed husband, at a very high risk of getting some horrible STD because she is involving herself in a very promiscuous community.

Condoms are not sure protection against small viruses like HPV or AIDs.

Her BH has to know the truth so he can monitor himself for HPV linked cancers for the rest of his life, and hopefully catch them while they are still curable.

http://www.cdc.gov/hpv/cancer.html

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted by walls4us
She has confided that she feels great shame and regret for her actions.

Obviously, she doesn't since she's continuing to live this life style.

If she feels such shame, why does she continue to live this way?

So her "confession" to you is for you to carry her burden and she feels relieved to continue?

So she obviously needs you to step up and do the right thing?

Are you going to actually be a real friend and do the right thing?

Is this women around your husband?


FWW/BW (me)
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Is your friend bipolar or been diagnosed with anything?


FWW/BW (me)
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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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She hasn't mentioned being bi-polar. She did think that she went thru a period of depression during her adulterous affairs. Perhaps it's a question I should ask. Guessing that she hasn't been diagnosed as such.

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Are you going to tell her husband?


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Affairs are addictions. It can't be solved in secret.

He will be very distraught, but also relieved to have an explanation. It is mysterious and stressful to have a spouse you know blames you for something, but you don't know what.

It's unlikely he can't meet her needs, this is what every addict says. They 'need' the addiction.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by walls40us
She hasn't mentioned being bi-polar. She did think that she went thru a period of depression during her adulterous affairs. Perhaps it's a question I should ask. Guessing that she hasn't been diagnosed as such.

Don't ignore all the advice you've been given while addressing the most irrelevant response.

Think of your friend as an Addict. Are you going to continue to watch her ruin her life or are you going to step up and try and help her. Exposing the truth (at least to her Betrayed Husband - BH) is the the first step. Exposure is like staging an intervention for an Addict.

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Walls4us,

A few thing you wrote popped out at me and may offer one explanation of why she is were she is in her marriage.

You wrote, She married him thinking he would change... For several years, the husband was depressed and withdrawn emotionally from her even more so than before....She says the reason for all these adulterous relationships was that she needed emotional fulfillment, relational intimacy, and sexual intimacy. None of these things were available from her husband.

It sounds like she started off her marriage without unconditional love for her H, and I'm going to guess he sensed he was a 2nd choice. Her cheating on him then confirmed this and he never recovered.

Its not that she cheats because he is depressed, he is depressed because she cheats. She can't get what she wants from her BH because she never allowed him to.

Does her BH consider you a friend of theirs?

God Bless
Gamma

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I'm never quite sure why people believe the spiel about the distant spouse as though that has anything to do with it. Obviously someone arranging random internet hookups isn't quite expiring for lack of hugs from their husband. They've moved into a need for a high level of thrill that will get worse until they lose everything.

I'd put my money on the poor guy trying and failing to either talk to or touch his wife.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Yes I am confused at how her reasoning for seeking multiple affairs is that she needed emotional fulfillment, relational intimacy, and sexual intimacy. Trolling for random sex partners on the internet is clearly looking for the OPPOSITE of anything titled 'intimacy.'

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Originally Posted by walls40us
Her husband is a devoted, good guy, however, he's emotionally challenged and socially very introverted. He has great difficulty expressing or hearing emotional feedback. She married him thinking he would change.

After 10 years of a happy marriage,...

If she was so unhappy with her husband when marrying him, to the point of thinking he needed to 'change', how did they have 10 happy years?

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Originally Posted by walls40us
After 10 years of a happy marriage, she felt the need to bring closure with an old boyfriend from her dating days. This old boyfriend was her one true love but because there was never an opportunity for them to truly connect given she was about 5 years older, the relationship never blossomed and never closed properly in her view. She initiated contact with him and he was receptive in an effort to bring closure.

She initiated contact because she was trolling for someone to fill her unmet needs. This had nothing to do with 'closure.' Closure is called breaking up. He was receptive to having an affair, not closure.

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Originally Posted by walls40us
She also felt shame and regret due to this secret relationship. She revealed the contact with this old flame to her husband without the knowledge of the boyfriend. Her husband was destroyed by the revelation from this great hurt. Nevertheless, they sought counseling which she found helpful but less so for him. For several years, the husband was depressed and withdrawn emotionally from her even more so than before.

So she DIDN'T feel shame and regret. Because if she did she would have revealed THE TRUTH but she didn't, she did a little number we call trickle truth. They went on to counseling, which was apparently helpful to her because, she knew the truth. Not so much for her BH, who was still in the dark about his own life. And shockingly, after that, he became depressed and withdrawn...

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Originally Posted by walls40us
During those years, she delved into the internet world where she met many men in chat rooms and had sexual conversations. Ultimately she met many of these men .... upwards of 25 different men with whom she had sexual contact. Probably at least 50 different encounters with these men. She had intercourse with about 6 of them on several different occasions, some of which were repeats. She has confided that she feels great shame and regret for her actions. In the past 8 years, she has not had any face to face encounters with these or other men. She has continued to dabble in the internet world but only for "mindless fun" as she calls it. I'm confident she's telling the truth in this respect. She says the reason for all these adulterous relationships was that she needed emotional fulfillment, relational intimacy, and sexual intimacy. None of these things were available from her husband.

The REASON she became a serial cheater, is because she is a serial cheater trolling the internet for sex with random men. As I've already pointed out, any rational person would not buy into the reason for someone having 'sexual contact with upwards of 25 men' being that they were seeking *intimacy* good grief.

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Originally Posted by walls40us
The dilema for me is how to encourage her as a friend.

Why would you want to encourage her, that would not be friendly at all! She is living a VERY destructive lifestyle, that is life threatening to her and her poor BH who is completely in the dark about this! There is nothing to 'encourage' about her lifestyle at all!

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Originally Posted by walls40us
After what she went thru with her husband the first time for exposing a relationship that by comparison was quite mild compared to her later affairs, she can't bring herself to reveal her numerous sordid affairs to her husband. She can't bear the pain and hurt it would cause him let alone her family. I expect it would truly be devastating to her husband, kids, parents, and close friends if this was revealed.

What exactly did SHE go through? He was the one betrayed. She is selfishly hiding the truth, because revealing it would end her secret second life, not because she cares in the least about the pain and hurt it would cause. The only answer is telling the truth, and accepting the consequences.

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Walls, I am not commenting to condescend you in any way. You truly are a good and caring friend for coming here to ask for help! It is commendable, and getting involved is exactly what more people should do, instead of turning a blind eye to this kind of tragedy.

I am commenting because it is clear from reading your first entry, that YOU are buying into her story. Her sorrow and guilt. Her 'reasons' for having an affair. Her condescending attitude toward her husband, the man she has been betraying for many years!

I wanted to dissect it, to give you a new perspective, to see this story from her victim's viewpoint. Do you see how selfish her story is? How she is attempting to place the blame of her serial cheating on her husband? How she STILL, despite her claim to be remorseful, is selfishly hiding behind a shield of lies, while her husband continues to live in the misery he is in?

It is like she is beating him in alley, over and over. Will you stand there and watch it happen? Or will you step in and stop it?

Please listen to the advice here and stop this tragedy. Do the right thing and expose.

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Another thing this lady might keep in mind is that it may be discovered by the H that she knew and didn't tell. All us betrayed spouses found out about about the friend who didn't tell.

Then it was bye bye friend. The couples who recovered had to end those friendships because those friends might again help cover up another affair.

Alcoholics can't be friends with anyone who lets them drink in secret.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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As I've talked to her further, I'm discovering some things that are contradictory. She has clarified to me that at the time of her encounters with the 23 men, she would lie awake at night feeling shame and regret but she was always able to push it aside by the light of day and continue her infidelities. Now, 8 years after the last face to face encounter of infidelity, she says she doesn't feel any shame or regret. That these were learning experiences. I can't reconcile that in my head in any way whatsoever. How could a person be unfaithful upwards of 40 times with 23 men over 6 years and not label themselves a serial cheater or any other despicable name?

She has also talked about how much she despises the husband of a close friend who was also cheating and was discovered by his wife (her close friend). She talks about how he's such a despicable character for his 20 years of cheating. I want to say to her that's exactly what you did too.

She has talked about one and perhaps her first adulterous relationship being with a married pastor of a church who she met online. They had up to 10 separate encounters over the years. She shared that the pastor had apparently been having other relationships with other women before her. In fact, a former congregant from his former church one day called the pastor's wife to spill the beans on him years later. The pastor did a good job of keeping it a secret and somehow salvaged his job as pastor of the church and his marriage. Amazingly, she talked about how his other adulterous relationships before and after her didn't bother her. She talked how the pastor helped her walk thru difficulties in her life with his counsel. I just find that incredible that a pastor with who she's unfaithful could help her with anything. Moreover, how is it that she can't attach herself even with the pastor she's being unfaithful with and show any jealousy toward him and his other infidelities.

She has talked about having a very high libido going back many years. This sounds like possible sexual addiction to me. She hasn't had a face to face encounter for 8 years now yet she continues to occasionally chat online. This occurs far less than it did during the time she was having sexual contact with the 23 men. She says she does it out of boredom and for mindless activity. I don't understand why she continues to do this.

She acknowledges the need for counseling, but she believes confessing to her husband will devastate and destroy him. Thus she can't bear to confess. The more I hear of all of this, the more I think she is totally screwed up. I don't see any hope for her unless she is willing to repent and confess to her husband and take substantive steps to change. That means accepting the consequences however harsh they may be and somehow moving on and forsaking her life of deception. Just don't see any other way for her to heal completely.

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Everything you've said sounds pretty normal for a wayward wife. I would hesitate to call her a sex addict without Dr H's input. You can be a serial cheat (and have a high drive) without necessarily being a sex addict.

It is fairly unusual for a woman to go for one night stands, rather than a string of emotional infidelities, but you can be a woman and have sex as a high need. If you then become a cheater, it could take this form.

Originally Posted by walls40us
She would lie awake at night feeling shame and regret but she was always able to push it aside by the light of day and continue her infidelities. Now, 8 years after the last face to face encounter of infidelity, she says she doesn't feel any shame or regret.


That's normal. All affairs become addictions - You can't quit and you can't continue to feel so bad about yourself either. We have a thread around here someplace describing this 'hardening' process over time. It means she is very untrustworthy as a person in general because she has had to switch off her conscience to survive.

Originally Posted by walls40us
She has also talked about how much she despises the husband of a close friend who was also cheating and was discovered by his wife (her close friend). She talks about how he's such a despicable character for his 20 years of cheating. I want to say to her that's exactly what you did too.
.


Again fantastically common. Every wayward considers their own cheating 'different'.



Originally Posted by walls40us
She has talked about one and perhaps her first adulterous relationship being with a married pastor of a church who she met online. They had up to 10 separate encounters over the years. She shared that the pastor had apparently been having other relationships with other women before her. In fact, a former congregant from his former church one day called the pastor's wife to spill the beans on him years later. The pastor did a good job of keeping it a secret and somehow salvaged his job as pastor of the church and his marriage. Amazingly, she talked about how his other adulterous relationships before and after her didn't bother her. She talked how the pastor helped her walk thru difficulties in her life with his counsel. I just find that incredible that a pastor with who she's unfaithful could help her with anything. Moreover, how is it that she can't attach herself even with the pastor she's being unfaithful with and show any jealousy toward him and his other infidelities.


They were each other's drug dealer. They don't care there are other clients.

Originally Posted by walls40us
She acknowledges the need for counseling, but she believes confessing to her husband will devastate and destroy him. Thus she can't bear to confess. The more I hear of all of this, the more I think she is totally screwed up. I don't see any hope for her unless she is willing to repent and confess to her husband and take substantive steps to change. That means accepting the consequences however harsh they may be and somehow moving on and forsaking her life of deception. Just don't see any other way for her to heal completely.


Waywards adore the idea of counselling because it doesn't work. There are counsellors up and down the country full of waywards spilling their guts in complete confidence and planning to change nothing. Just as she has with you. She trusts you to help cover this up and keep it going.

They despise the idea of accountability to their spouse because that DOES work. Bye bye crack pipe. Makes the average wayward come out in withdrawal pains just thinking about it.

She will NEVER come clean on her own. It's impossible. She just needs a nice friend to tell her it's OK to stab her H in the back daily.


Are you going to tell this poor man he is being defrauded out of his right to a life or are you going to help his wife hide the crack pipe?






What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Besides your friend being someone to chat with on obviously a deeply personal level, what moral and ethical qualities does she possess that you embrace her friendship with?

Since i am a Betrayed Husband of a serial cheating wife who has moved out 2 1/2 years ago, i know i am very prejudiced and biased, yet i still feel that even before my personal life shattering discoveries, that i would never have relished a friendship with someone of such despicable character.

Her husband needs to know the whole truth. Anyone who withholds known facts from him will be viewed as an accomplice to the cover up.

LTL

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You need to take action and help her Betrayed Husband. She is commiting the worst crime he has probably ever had committed against him in his life and you have a chance to stop it. Be brave, step up and do the right thing, this poor man doesn't deserve this (nobody does), she clearly sees nothing wrong with her online lifestyle and another Affair (encounter) can start up at any time. Heck, she is probably engaged in multiple Emotional Affairs already.

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All you need is courage to see the way clear here. The moral is not very difficult at all. You wouldn't dream of respecting her counsel if he was being deceived financially by his accountant. Or if his wife was a chemical junkie, ruining herself and ransacking the kid's college funds.

Which will likely happen. Affairs are costly things for the betrayed spouse. Lawyers or marriage counselling, discovering how much the dinners and hotels and travel with their affair partners really cost, all the hidden debts. As a former betrayed spouse myself, I can tell you that the financial cost is the least of it. It took years to put myself back together after discovering EVERYONE else knew.

This man deserves to know his whole life is a trick and he gets to decide what he wants to do about it. Not you. Not her.

If that means he recovers with your friend, well he won't be the first - that is the commonest choice actually. From my own experience here, about 8 out of ten offer the chance to earn forgiveness.

If that means he kicks her out, well that's fine too. At least she won't be cheating on anyone anymore and she will have to find someone else to blame for her behaviour.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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You keep talking about the '8 years' as if she hasn't been unfaithful in 8 years and that makes her in some way reformed. Yet you realize she is still continuing to pursue online sexually based relationship with random men TO THIS DAY. This is NOT 'mindless fun' as she refers to it, it is adultery, regardless of whether she is actually meeting up with them in person or not. She has a long history of serial cheating with random men on the internet, and continues to this day, and will likely continue for many years to come since there is nothing stopping her.

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Originally Posted by walls40us
She acknowledges the need for counseling, but she believes confessing to her husband will devastate and destroy him. Thus she can't bear to confess. The more I hear of all of this, the more I think she is totally screwed up. I don't see any hope for her unless she is willing to repent and confess to her husband and take substantive steps to change. That means accepting the consequences however harsh they may be and somehow moving on and forsaking her life of deception. Just don't see any other way for her to heal completely.

I don't see any hope for her until and unless you man up and be a real friend and tell her husband. That is what a true friend does. She will not feel remorse or confess until this comes out into the open..

Stop discussing it with her and get her some help! Go to her husband and show him this entire thread. Her reasons for this are immaterial. What matters is that a) her husband is informed so he can protect himself and b) she is stopped by exposing her behavior.

Stop wasting time by expecting her to bust herself. Help your friend and her husband by going to her husband.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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"Friends" don't enable "friends." A true friend helps her friend in her time of need. She doesn't become an accessory to the crime by keeping her dirty secrets. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping her secrets from her victims only serves to harm her and others.

Are you a "friend" or an accessory to the crime?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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What about this?

What Dr. Harley said that he used to do is to tell the person that they need to tell their spouse, and if they don't, then he will.

Any thoughts on that?

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Originally Posted by DidntQuit
What about this?

What Dr. Harley said that he used to do is to tell the person that they need to tell their spouse, and if they don't, then he will.

Any thoughts on that?

This WW has already said she won't tell her husband so I don't see the need of engaging a completely needless battle. Dr. Harley has told people to expose affairs themselves a million times. I don't see the point of muddying the waters with more complications when the most direct solution is to contact the husband herself and get it out there.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2008
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S
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S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Good grief. This woman needs to be stopped from giving her husband some terrible disease, and from possibly being attacked by one of these strangers she hooks up with. The kind of man who seeks the zipless encounter with a desperate woman who advertises for sex is very likely to be a violent pervert.

It's possible, from your description of this husband, that he might not want to divorce when you tell him about this (at first, anyway). If their marriage is to stand any chance, your friend must be kept under his supervision and certainly should not be allowed to use the Internet. Her husband can't help her (or protect himself) if he does not know about this.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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