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#2812385 07/29/14 10:49 PM
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Background. Age 60. 2nd marriage. Wife is 50. Married wife 20 years ago when I was divorced and had 4 kids. She invested in me and my kids, heart and soul, financially, emotionally, etc. Those four kids are grown and out of the house now, and we have another child of our own, who is 14. I'm a remedial, recovering husband who believes everything on MarriageBuilders, but have a hard time eliminating LB's and meeting her EN's. She's at the end of her rope. She's been in the guest room the past 2-3 years.
The issue: She knows I listen to MB everyday and am trying to implement it all. But, she does not believe I can do it. She has given me an ulta matum: I commit to a separation or divorce now, or I can stay in the house but I have to sign a "post nupt" meaning, in four years, if I have not turned everything around such that her EN's are being met, I forfeit all of our finances, (house is paid off, etc.) Our son will be out of school by then and that is where the 4 years comes in. I believe I can change and have so stated. She believes I cannot and it is just a "sales pitch", and she'll have no more "sales pitches". She believes that if I don't sign the "post nupt", I don't really believe I can turn this around and therefore, I am a liar. Desperate for some sound advice. What do I do?

Last edited by Remark; 07/29/14 10:50 PM.
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Don't sign any legal document unless you first email Dr. Harley and an attorney directly for advice.
I haven't heard of something like this. Basically she wants you to give her all marital assets if she is unhappy in the marriage in 4 years?
I don't think that would be a wise decision on your part. You are 60 years old and will need these assets as you age.

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Yes, you understand it correctly.

I agree with you, but also want to be successful husband who meets his wife's needs. So, it's a struggle (decision). I e-mailed Dr H earlier today, but have not heard back from him.

Thx

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This is what your wife wrote in 2013 about her main complaints about you:

Originally Posted by remark's wife
Honcho, I agree that we have problems with our communication. I just don't believe it's the biggest one. I think things like lying, not keeping your word, infidelity, disinterest, disrespect, disdain, valuing others over your spouse, double standards, etc. are simply bigger problems. Besides, we have had numerous positive discussions where CRex and I have come to a "compromise both parties [could] enthusiastically embrace," but as soon as the time came to apply what we agreed upon, he threw out everything we discussed and pursued his own interest, to the total exclusion of mine. There was no lack of understanding.

That sort of transition from child's education to sex is not at all uncommon for our conversations. It's difficult for me to maneuver the many rabbit trails and keep us on topic. Of course the conversations go long, because they're all over the place. I haven't been able to come up with a method of redirecting a conversation back on target without it resulting in his verbally attacking me. We've pursued counseling throughout our M, but the advice isn't something that H retains Same thing for books we've read, seminars we've attended, etc. It doesn't work well when only one person is applying it.

If I had to define what I believe is the biggest problem in our M, I would say it's that H has demonstrated pretty regularly and very consistently that he simply doesn't like me very much. And I'm referring to his day-to-day interactions with me, not just his behavior during our conversations. This happens in even in the best of times, and has since the beginning of our M

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In your case, Dr. Harley would probably encourage you to "Plan A" and eliminate all Love Busters.

Your wife also wrote this about a recent affair:

Originally Posted by remark's wife
Rabbit trail #1

Yes, 7 years ago. He says today that he didn't know it was an affair. However, he hid what he was doing, certainly not mentioning it and deleting the string of emails so I wouldn't find them. The point is, he knew he was doing something wrong or he wouldn't have deleted them, whether he acknowledged it as an affair or not. He just didn't do it very well and I did stumble across it, sadly while looking for ideas on what I could get him for his birthday. The emails included declarations that she was the love of his life (and she said he was hers) and he didn't know why they ever broke up. He stopped because I took it to our pastor and our pastor told him to stop. Of course, there's no way for me to know if he really did stop or simply switched to another email address.

Within the last 6 months, he has told me that he didn't have an emotional affair, that there is no such thing as an emotional affair. I simply don't feel like this is resolved, nor am I confident that he won't do something similar again that also "is not an affair." Even amidst his apology and repentance, I feel like he is still minimizing and defending it.

BTW, how's my communication?


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Here's another comment from your wife about some of her main complaints:

Originally Posted by remark's wife
So, looking forward.

I have learned things about my H over the years. Like when I first started dating him, he and his kids explained to me that in no uncertain terms were mushrooms ever allowed in the house. Simply meaning, they didn't like nor want mushrooms. I love mushrooms, but fine if they didn't, I could eat them without expecting anyone else to do so.

Luckily, this message was voiced outloud in a manner that I understood and was never contradicted by anyone's actions (although the kids have since grown up and now love mushrooms, too, though H still does not.) I consider this ideal. I don't "blame" H or "resent" him because he doesn't like mushrooms. It's unfortunate that it's not something we can share, or experiment with different varieties, or try new recipes, etc. but one can hardly blame another for their preferences. At the same time, I'm not willing to give up my interest in them.

There have been many other things I've learned about H over the years, which weren't as simply stated or easily accounted for, but just as clear nonetheless. One of these is that H is simply not content with my company alone. He loves a crowd. The more the merrier. Even our honeymoon cruise was nice but "would have been better if we had another half-dozen other couples with us." His kids and I were always trying to get him to camp just as a family, but he always insisted on a huge production with 40-50 other people. We went to a bed & breakfast, had a great time I thought, then returned to do it again with two other couples. As recently as this summer, I pointed out a couples cooking class/date night that we could do together, and his response was that he would see if the other bible study couples "would be available that night to do it with us." This is just a few of hundreds of examples.

I've also learned that neither is he interested in my activities/hobbies. For years I tried to get him to participate with me (gardening, hiking, biking, float trips, jigsaw puzzles, scary movies, etc.) but he would decline with some snide comment about how it was boring/for girls/too much work/not for him/etc. Or he would give it a token 5 minute effort then walk off in disgust. I somewhat get it, because I feel the same about his hobby of golf, so I'm not criticizing him, just stating facts. The problem though is that now we don't share any interests. And on top of it, I wouldn't know how to address that since I know he's not content with my company.

He's welcome to do his hobbies. He was gone last weekend for a trip to Florida to play golf for 3 days with his uncle/cousins. At the same time, I don't feel inclined to give up my interests. He's doing what he enjoys with other people that enjoy doing it, and I'm doing the same. Why would we ever change that? What could possibly be the benefit to either one of us doing what we don't want to do and imposing that on the other person during their pleasure time? I know the few brief times H did join me in my hobby of gardening or jigsaw puzzles, for example, he created memories for me which confirm that I'd rather do it without him and his negative attitude. There's nothing fun about listening to someone gripe the whole time, or look at their watch, or steer the activity away from the one intended. And worse, now I know clearly how he feels about it so "behaving" better doesn't improve anything for me. Sort of like trying to enjoy sex when you know the other person is repulsed by it, even if they are doing a good job of faking it.

I'm just trying to figure out what we're shooting for. Even if we learned to communicate effectively, we want different things from life. I don't think either of us are right or wrong, I just see it as incompatible.

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In this post, your wife mentioned a negotiation where you involved outside people as "tie breakers" in making a marital decision:

Originally Posted by remark's wife
As for my being unwilling to make any effort...
These things I know: In any disagreement, CRex needs to involve an outside person as a "tie-breaker." This person's decision is golden, regardless of who the person is or whether they agree with him or with me. When asked why this other (whoever) person has more credibility than me, even when I was saying the exact same thing, his responses included: he's a pastor, he's a trained counselor, he was previously D'd, she raised teenagers already, he's objective, he's a man, etc.) The point is, I will never be any of those things, so I will never be able to compete for credibility in his eyes.

3 weeks ago, we had our conflict about our son's education. CRex involved my bro and SIL as the tie-breaker. It ended with him accusing me of being irrational.
What I did: I recognized his intense need to handle it his way. I recognized his need to always involve a third party as a "tie-breaker." I removed myself from the entire scenario and let him handle it his way. This removes me as the middleman, along with all the irrelevant conversation, and lets him go directly to his source. I've adopted this approach in to all decisions and it has addressed quite a few issues, including his compliant that I'm too controlling and that we talk too much/long.

This I know: My H is very conflict-averse.

2.5 weeks ago, H was complaining about the state of our M. I said I felt like my approach was a good one and that it addressed a number of issues. I said if we're going to do something, then we need to devote our time to it and hash it out until it's resolved because I'm tired of going over it and over it and starting over again. He agreed and we gave it some time that night, then a short time the next evening before I left for school. When I got home from school, he was avoiding me. Whereas I would have normally pursued him, I felt relieved. I didn't want to deal with it either. Contrary to what my H claims, I don't like rehashing all this. So I adopted his approach of avoidance. For 10 days we did this. I thought it was working great. We did our own thing, there was no conflict, I thought it was good. The problems this addressed were my criticism, control, "barking,"long discussions, my out-negotiating him, rehashing the past, etc.

A week ago, he came home from a weekend trip to Fla playing golf with family. I picked him up from the airport as he asked. I was still doing the avoidance approach that had seemed to be working before he left. A little later, being clearly agitated, he complained again about the state of our M. He brought up again for the nth time in months the HNHN program, saying it was what we needed to do. I declined yet again, because we've already done it, I still remember it, I even still have the workbook from the first time. He complained that I'm not willing to work on things, that I don't make any suggestions.

So I took into consideration his need for third-party validation as well as his need for limited time, and I suggested this site. I hand-held him through the process of setting up a profile and how to maneuver the site, showed him where the post button is, etc.

In the last couple days, I've read the suggestion about limiting the amount of time. At the first occurrence of a conversation, I took my phone with me and set the timer for 40 minutes. It didn't go well. When the time was up, I put an end to the discussion, then decided I would back up the duration to 20 minutes next time, since apparently 40 minutes was still too long. The next 20-minute session blew up at 9 minutes. The next one was under 2 minutes.

One of the recent posts suggested that we not talk. I'm completely on board with that suggestion, because it seemed to be working so well a couple weeks ago. I tried to approach the topic with CRex, timer in hand, only asking him one question (also a suggestion, to stop asking questions) as to whether he had read the post. That was the conversation that blew up at 9 minutes (really only 6 minutes, because I started the timer as soon as I asked him to talk but we didn't start right away.)


If this is "unwilling to work on things," then he needs to file immediately and put me out of my misery.

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Originally Posted by Remark
Yes, you understand it correctly.

I agree with you, but also want to be successful husband who meets his wife's needs. So, it's a struggle (decision). I e-mailed Dr H earlier today, but have not heard back from him.

Thx

Remark,

I spent a half hour reading through your wife's comments and she is clearly in a state of withdrawl.
At this point you should just Plan A and avoid Love Busters.
Re-read His Needs Her Needs.

Others more experienced can help you here but you need to stay on this forum because it is based on Dr. Harley's advice. The other forum you and your wife were posting on is not based on Dr. Harley's methods for saving marriages and is mostly just peoples opinions.


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Originally Posted by Remark
Yes, you understand it correctly.

I agree with you, but also want to be successful husband who meets his wife's needs. So, it's a struggle (decision). I e-mailed Dr H earlier today, but have not heard back from him.

Thx
Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Yes, that is us.
Yes, I heard from Dr H. He said no to post-nup, wants to talk with wife. She says no. S he's in severe withdrawal.
Yes, I have been working on avoiding LB's for a year now.

I'm very remorseful, and will do whatever it takes to make marriage mutually better, mutually interdependent.


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Originally Posted by Remark
Yes, that is us.
Yes, I heard from Dr H. He said no to post-nup, wants to talk with wife. She says no. S he's in severe withdrawal.
Yes, I have been working on avoiding LB's for a year now.

I'm very remorseful, and will do whatever it takes to make marriage mutually better, mutually interdependent.
Did he read it on the radio show? Did you let Dr. Harley know she doesn't want to talk to him?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Yes, Dr H read on radio. Yes, I informed him and Joyce she is not interested in talking with them.

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Originally Posted by Remark
Yes, Dr H read on radio. Yes, I informed him and Joyce she is not interested in talking with them.
When did he read it on the show?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.




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