Most women want more than a "roof over her head, financial support, and a good father to her children," though. They also want a man who meets her intimate emotional needs, such as affection and conversation. They also want a man who doesn't hurt her with anger.

It doesn't matter how dedicated a man is to his family if he has angry outbursts at his wife. AO's are BIG love busters. If a spouse can't communicate respectfully without anger, then plenty of communication isn't going to help much.

Agree. And Dr. Harley states, when there is anger that must first be eliminated and even advises separation until the anger is eliminated.

uhhh no. They are separated because of his angry outbursts. In which case, Dr Harley recommends communicating via email.

And since when is UA time used to discuss problems? That time is to be spent on fun dates, not on working on the marriage.

It's very common for men to not understand what hurts women, so it's not surprising that this is difficult for him and you to grasp. Fortunately Marriage Builders is a program for teaching this information, and teaching how to eliminate the habits that hurt. We do understand here and can help him come to understand.

Hint: it's not because they have trouble communicating, and she doesn't have a "sweet deal." My wife had essentially the same deal from me, and it was anything but sweet.

P.S., AverageGuy, it'll go a long way if you learn to validate people's complaints about their marriage instead of invalidating them like you did to this poster's wife. Her husband needs to learn how to take her complaints seriously, not be encouraged to invalidate his wife when she complains. That would be very disrespectful.

This advice pretty much amounts to saying that she has nothing to complain about, that she should be grateful for sitting pretty in a materially comfortable marriage, and that she's lucky he hasn't kicked her out. It verges on telling him not to put up with her crap and telling her instead to be grateful for what she's got.

This is so far from Dr Harley's advice that it I wonder how it could have been posted on the Marriage Builders forum.

AverageGuy, if you have already admitted you don't understand MtnMan's wife, why would you be the one to give him answers?

First off, you should not admire me. I am an emotional abuser and I have been very angry and disrespectful toward my wife. Like markos said about his past with his wife, my wife has had far from a sweet deal. Her top intimate emotional needs (intimate conversation and affection) have not been met for a decade AND she has been controlled, disrespected and suffered my rath through angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments. I have been completely uncaring. I am also very controlling in all aspects of my life, including how I "appear" on this forum. These are all issues that I'm working to resolve but I'm not there yet.

Not too long ago I thought like you that my wife should put up with my crap because I make money, do some house work and help with the kids. Unfortunately that is far from true. Thinking that way is a sure path to divorce. Trust me, I am separated and on a path toward divorce. It sucks and it's hard to keep fighting, but I know saving my marriage the right thing to do for my wife, me and my kids.

My issues are much bigger than not knowing how to communicate. I am working to remove the severe love busters and learning how to make even the smallest deposits in my wife's love bank. There is a lot of great advice on MB about intimate conversation, affection and the other intimate emotional needs. THIS is where I will next need the most help from this forum and I hope all the experts here will guide me in the right direction like they have done with my anger management issues.

When I save my marriage, then admire me. Until then, I have a hard road ahead and know MB is the right path.

MtnMan,
I'm 34 and have never been married, so maybe I'm not the best person to offer advice. But I have read everything you and your wife have posted and I think your relationship is very similar to one I had in the past with a boyfriend. So I can relate very much to your wife, and what I would want from my husband is to be SHOWN that he loves me. Did you start making love bank deposits such as sending her flowers, buying her little gifts, writing her a love letter, cleaning out her gutters etc? From her posts it seemed to me that that was what she was looking for from you- some gesture to show that you still love her and still want her. You can send her flowers every day and still give her space because that way you can show that you are thinking of her, and you still want to make your marriage work, but you don't need to talk to her and potentially subject her to anything that may trigger her. Just a suggestion.

AG, just so you know, Dr Harley believes that "focusing on communication" is why most counselors FAIL. He himself FAILED when he focused on this. If you read through the article you linked, you would see Dr Harley's comment about "communication":


In other words, "communication" it not the problem, it is a RESULT of the problem. Couples who are in love have no problem "communicating" and neither did this couple. They already know how to communicate.

Problem solving is addressed in the program by resolving love busters and following the POJA and the 4 rules of good conversation.

So, your focus on "communication" is not where we start around here. We start with love busters and then move onto creating romantic love with the Basic Concepts.

One cannot always expect a Mountain Man to understand the inner workings of the female mind and heart....
But one can always ask an Average Guy for an opinion and get an average male perspective.

MelodyLane stated it way better than I could have about the communication and Dr. Harley's articles. W and I have done the "traditional" marriage counseling before, and the counselor taught us techniques for communication, such as facing each other, repeating back, asking follow up questions, etc etc. Obviously, it didn't work for us and that's why W found MB a couple years ago.

Regarding my plan for meeting W intimate emotional needs, I think that is a great question. Right now, I am doing my best to make any love bank deposits that I can. Some have been small, like getting her flowers and buying her coffee. I also took a day and a half off last week because she was very stressed about all the things she had on her plate with the kids. I helped her by running some errands, helping with the kids and doing some things around the house. I concentrated on showing her care and being a nice guy. It was actually a pretty good 3 days since I committed zero AOs and DJs. We had a few good conversations and I made it a point to show her verbal affection. I also made sure to ask for her feedback and ask "how do you feel..." about most things I was did. Overall, she was positive but leary of the progress. I know she still does not feel safe around me and she may not feel safe for a good long time. Coincidentally, on MB radio last week, there was a couple that talked about a W feeling safe around her husband, and it sounded very similar to our situation. He was very disrespectful in the past, and Dr Harley said he had to remove the love busters before she would feel safe around him, and once she started to feel safe, then more progress could be made with love bank deposits. It reaffirmed the advice I have been receiving about resolving my AO and DJ issues first.

I know it was only 3 days and it is not enough of a "plan" to continue meeting her needs, but it was progress and things are looking better. After going through coaching with SH, I know I need to create a plan to spend 15-20 hours of UA each week meeting intimate emotional needs. Can anybody share what they did to create a plan for EN? I could really use help about some specific things that worked for creating and executing your plan.

I want to make sure I change in a way that lasts this time. I can't afford anymore slip ups and I know it!

That is great news, MtnMan! As you have realized, you can't afford one single love buster.


I would first start by using the UA worksheet. You can download it free here. You need to get with your wife and plan out 4 - 4 hour DATES out of the house. Focus on meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

Why not send her the worksheet and ask her out on 4 dates for the week? Tell her you will need her help in deciding what to do and where to go. It might even help if you launched this with a fun weekend away from home to a place she loves. [no children!]

Make suggestions, too. Things you think she would enjoy.

And be prepared to be slapped down with a "No," and very likely disrespectful judgements. Be prepared, and don't respond with lovebusters of your own. Don't demand.

Then calmly try again tomorrow.

Good advice and reminders about the possible "No". I will be prepared so I'm not disrespectful or frustrated by her opinion.

I found the UA worksheet and will use it to plan our week with my W. I didn't see anything specific for initimate conversation or affection "planning". Is there any resource/worksheet to help with that?

Include intimate conversation during the entire UA time, while you are doing whatever you plan.

I screwed up last night. I did not have an angry outburst but I was disrespectful and uncaring toward my W. I didn't "show up" mentally for her to take care of her needs and I regret it.

She had a long day with the kids (especially our 3 yr old toddler) and has also been having bad headaches recently. She also didn't sleep well the night before so she was very tired and worn out from the long day. I came to the house around dinner, which she had cooked for the family, and I had told her that I would help with the kids because I knew how tired she was. In hindsight, I was not very caring or affectionate when I got home and there was an immediate lack of connection between us. I was indifferent and we didn't connect because I didn't make the effort to show care. Not that it's an excuse, but I woke up early to exercise, had a very stressful day at work and I had my anger management group, so I was drained and tired from the day too. I knew my fuse was short.

After dinner, I drove my oldest son to music class and then came home. W asked if I would mind taking the other kids with me when I went to pick him up from music, and I agreed. She said she needed a break from the kids so I did it.

We got home from music and the kids were wild, so I wrangled them upstairs with some of help from W and she said she was going to get ready for bed. I put the kids to bed and then I went in to see her. She was in bed and after a few brief words (don't remember exactly), I told her that I would "clean up the kitchen from dinner and then leave to go back to my apartment". I dropped the ball right there. I regret not asking her more about her day and connecting with her.

After finishing the dishes, I went back upstairs to tell her that I was leaving and she was clearly upset. I asked her why she was upset and she explained that I was being uncaring and she is tired of doing 99% of the work around the house to support the family. I told her that I was sorry for assuming she was going to bed and I saw how it was disrespectful. I also told her I disagreed that she does 99% and I do 1%. She was not disrespectful to me at all, and explained how she feel like she has sacrificed and I do very little, and she feels like it would be better in a divorce because I would have to do 50% of the work. This upset me to hear that she thinks divorce is a better option and her divorced friends are telling her that their lives are better because it is 50/50 and they get a break. Anyway, I knew the conversation was going to go bad, so I told her that I was just going to leave. I stopped before any AO because I could sense that it was escalating and I "left the room". Looking back on it, it was disrespectful that I assumed she was going to bed and didn't want to talk more. I also should have figured out a way to set aside being tired and upset, and instead be there for her. I should have "manned up" and taken care of her. She clearly needed somebody and I regret leaving.

When I got back to my apartment, I texted an apology, but the damage had already been done. I had already been disrespectful and uncaring. She is still upset today and said "No" to my attempts at helping with the kids today so she can take some time off. I asked her how she would feel about going to get a massage today because she is clearly stressed out from doing 99% of the domestic duties. She said "no" because she feels like it's a "bandaid for a bigger problem". I also suggested maybe going out for a drink or dinner together tonight to get away from the kids, but she is too upset to want to go out with me. I clearly did not maintain an environment of care and safety for her so I understand why she is rejecting all these attempts to "make it up to her".

I caused us to step backwards a few steps again. Any advice on how I can repair this?