I have a thread in the Divorce Busting Forums. Instead of starting from the beginning, here is the link:

**edit**
And the second:

**edit**


I decided to come here for more guidance and understanding. I have come much farther in the past 2 months than most would believe. At this exact juncture this is what I know.

My wife is having an Exit Affair, she believes she is in love with him and that he is her soul mate. She is in the fog.

Billman, please don't post links on our forum. Thank you.

Welcome Billman.

I see in your tagline "repaired" 11/01/2011...what does this mean?

Who have you exposed the affair to?

What is the status now, are you still living together?

This is what the links were for , I did not want to have to type everything all over, but I understand.

The repaired was:

3.5 years ago, we had another divorce situation. I was controlling and angry very often - not abusive. She had an emotional fling with a coworker. I moved out, and only 2 months had passed, the EP had moved several hours away and she asked me to come home - we did not fix our issues, but thought we were happy again.

The underlying issues resurfaced about a year and a half after, and then the second bomb.

The current Exit affair is physical and to the letter of an Exit Affair. I moved out of the house because at the time I was unaware of another person and believed that I was just giving her the space and time she needed.

A court order prevents me from being on the premises as of now. We own the home, and my emotional outbursts about the affair are what triggered the court order. I have since grown and learned what it is I need to do for healing, and do not pursue beg plead or talk about our marriage.

She believes she is in love with him and is currently well into the fog. As far as exposure, most of my family and most of hers knows about it. The one thing I have not done was told her employ. They work together. The reason for this is I cannot afford to survive the financial impact alone if she were to be fired. But I am teetering on the edge of doing so anyway. But we have 3 young children and that could make for a disastrous fallout.

Her affair partner is married, but claims to be separated. He has lied to her at least once, I am sure many more, but she is in the throes.

I have an ultimate faith and belief that she still cares for me, and I have hope that we can survive this - but I am having a hard time knowing how long I can hold on while I know this is happening and with the knowledge that I know it will most likely end - but indeterminate time.

Please ask whatever else you need to know.

You don't need to type everything all over. All you need to do is copy and paste your original post to the other forum, and a few others where you followed up with more details, into this thread.

I think you should do that, because I think people need the information about the other child you conceived and your explanation for how that happened, and about your anxiety condition, your addiction to online games, your general, long-term neglect of your wife and children, your burning the sheets a few months ago, the restraining order and the conditions imposed by the current court order.

well that is a lot to answer, so here goes.

To re-cap and be clear, this "event" with a woman you dated, occurred prior to the marriage?

No it was after, i was mistaken the timeline

Well...drunk or not, did you have sex or not?

I was passed out, i never drink, the OW confirmed that she essentially raped me and I was not conscious the entire time. I had drank an entire 12 pack. At the time my wife was a recovering teenage alcoholic and I never understood the "hype" of getting drunk - so i stupidly tried it. And to clear up it was after the marriage I was not thinking.

How did she find out about it anyhow? Was there other deceit involved?

She knew I was talking to her, During the first 2 years, I was not a very good person to her as I should have been. I loved her and gave her the world, but had anger issues that I was unaware of. The incident with the OW happened during a small breakup and my reason at the time was I was talking to her about how I was treating my wife. I had no intent of affair. At this point, even I did not know the OW and I had sex. almost 5 years later, the OW initiated a court order for a bloodtest and thats when this came out that she had a kid from sex that we obviously had. I tried to assure my wife i did not know, and the OW confirmed what happened - she never believed it.

The emotional cheating that refered to every two years or so: I never really "fixed" my anger, i just diverted it. I was always "in control" and she would talk to other people and would eventually have these friends that were there for her when she did not feel close to me. I was always unaware of these until I found out in some way. And again, I professed love and change without ever really getting the issue resolved.

Did you throw it in her face ever, or hold it over her head, or what?

No once it ended, i left it alone, I forgave her truly - but mainly because I guilted myself to believing it was all my fault.

Why did you think you had healed? And why did you believe SHE had healed? How did that supposedly happen?

Because she appeared happy again, and i would control my anger and anxiety issues (i did not know i had anxiety at this point). And we both fell back to our normal dead rhythm. We did not fix anything.

And did you really truly believe that her "emotional" cheating, whatever that means, is related solely to an event 10 years ago, and which you do not really feel responsible for?

I do feel responsible, and she had claimed forgiveness, I think i took it for granted, and she never really healed. I cannot be sure if that event was the only cause.

Are you certain Nothing else could be bothering her??

If I would just throw these answers out, she is materialistic, worries about money, believed marriage should be a fairy tale. And I was not consistent in any of these respects.

What do you mean by "she was of course" and "seeing another"?? Was she having an affair? Why do you say that and how do you know?

at this point 3.5 years ago, she told me she was talking to another man, she said it was not physical (well not to the point of sex). I never questioned it, so I cannot be sure of that. She has never been alone, i meant "of course" becasue everytime she tried to end us - there was another man involved - every time.

I am confused. 2 months after WHAT situation? Can you give me a thumb nail sketch of timelines here?

2 months after she dropped the 1st bomb, she let me back in. (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011)

What do you mean by "initial break",--(did you separate before?)

This refers to the (Sept 2011 - Nov 2011) break.

and What issues do YOU think caused that? This is VERY important.

That break was caused by my control. She did not have a license, or any freedom. It was not my intent, but i was suffocating her and did not realize it until then.

There is a major lack of trust going both ways. WHY do you think that is?

I did trust her, I thought she was happy, and took advantage that she said she wouldn't leave again. as far as why she didn't trust me. . work wise - i never held a job long. I cannot think of any other trust issues - I was always about her - i don't have a friend in the world (seriously) - let alone another woman to talk to.

1) why would she "again" confide in another man? When she would tell you problems she had, or when her feelings for you or the Marriage foundered, how did you react?
Were you supportive and reflective, but confident, or did you freak out on her? DIG DEEP...

no, that's just it. I would always talk about our issues, and what we could do to fix them, i did not yell or argue ever - since we got back together from the first break. Ever.

2) How did you learn that she was confiding in another man?

She was deleting her text messages, starting about a month before the first bomb. and I did not put 2 and 2 together until about a month After the bomb. She had a girlfriend and she claimed it was always her she was talking to her. I confronted her after that month ish, and she confirmed they were "friends" and they had been for awhile. I knew what that meant. SHe was "involved" in some way, before the bomb.

Do You mean she "threatened" or said she "wanted" a divorce - OR DID YOU Bring it up first?

She told me she was unhappy about 2 months before the 2nd D. she explained that it was about my recent job loss and our finances going to crap. And I was a boring father, i was not attentive to the children, not mean or bad - just lazy parent. - at this point I started to change that, looked for a 2nd job, and was Much more active with the kids. but nothing was getting better. She had also said during this conversation that "I am not going to leave you, I am not doing that again"
One day, i woke up and made the dumb stupid decision to suggest we should get a D. - and she ran for it. Right to his arms.

...keep peace with you, she pretended to concede and said she'd stick around? Is that about how you see it now?

Yup

Sorry to ask, but I need clarity so I can make suggestions, and this ^^ is vague to me. '
What do you mean when you say you "tried to compose but failed"?

I was trying to be civil, and have "peaceful" conversations about getting back together. I kept breaking - crying and groveling.

Did she ask you to move out?

not directly. she said I could stay . but i knew my anxiety would blow the whole thing - i.e the begging and crying - i knew i had to give her space - also this was before I knew of the OM.

I thought for awhile i was getting through.
meaning, what?

we had conversations (before I knew of OM) about her needing space and time to decide what she wanted. those tidbits of hope I read from her replies to my questions.

VERY WEIRD thing to learn from a stranger?!!

Once I found out about the OM, i dug for info on FB. found out he was married and separated. I contacted the OM wife and she had told me she knew and that they had been together . intimately. and I broke down. I confronted her that morning and she denied, then finally caved. I asked when was the last time and she said last night. that meant in our home in our bed, while my children slept. - I did not take that well.

You wanted to "cry in the house"??

After I confronted her and went back to my moms crying like a baby. she went to her fathers house with the kids. I went back to what was my home, and just planned to reminisce. I missed what was my life. I sat on the floor for about 15 minutes playing with my dogs, and was just looking around the house. I noticed my pictures were missing, and there was nothing left of me in the home.

sniffing around for some PAIN...

wasnt the plan...the morning before I was wastching the kids while she worked (trying to be civil) she asked me to bring up a tv from the basement - so she could watch tv at night in be. so i did . when I went into the room i remember the tv and had the thought . she had me bring it up so she could watch TV in be with the OM. The bed was unmade, i knelt by the bed and just dropped my head to cry. Then i smelled the cologne - i was not looking for it. i got up to leave, the cologne was on my shirt. - i took of my shirt and took it and the sheets to the trash outside, and missed the can. That was the moment i decided to burn them, and hated i did it right after.

That was not your original post.

Clippings from my other Forum:

---A---
I have dealt with the anger, I no longer have that issue. Same with the control issues. Those are no more.
I was lazy, I did not help around the house.
I was not an attentive father - i did not always help with homework, i found reasons to not go outside and play with them. I did not take them anywhere (park, store, anywhere when i left the house), and certainly did not take them and give her time without them in the house (alone time).
I worked at home, so I was Always at home, and never went anywhere.
I was always in her face, i did smother her.
I was very sexual, but I did not try to romance her.

---B---
I asked before but don't recall getting an answer, but is the child part of your life at all? Have you met him/her, and or have your kids?

No the child is not a part of my life. and the OW has said she does not want me to b. I do however pay support.

Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.

You were "inert"? You say you were inattentive and inactive with her and the kids, so I think she did not feel safe with you, in terms of what would happen to the kids if she wasn't around AND whether you would really "Show up" for her.

I believe I was always available. I was I think overprotective of the children, to the point that I stunted their ability to have fun in an attempt to keep them safe i.e. could not be barefoot in the yard, afraid they would hurt their feet. I did not cook meals and always made easy food - sandwiches, mac & cheese, lunchables, simple things.

There are a lot of ways women can feel unprotected by their mates.

Like not standing up for her with your family would be a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, just a comment.
Or, bad mouthing her to others, or involving your family in private matters,

I always defended her, I never bad mouthed her to my family.


And not being able to provide for the home and family is another big way for a woman to feel unsafe and unprotected by her mate.

I was not a good provider, i see that now more than ever. My only defense is that the mortgage at least, was always top priority, whilst the other bills suffered.

He Helps her feel safe and provided for, with the children...


I did fail at this in the grand scheme.

I think her fears about money are probably very real and deep.

I see that now.

I would like to hear more of that from you, about your wife. Know what I mean?

Anything I can answer I will.

There is hope!


---C---
I agree that all this is overwhelming, and a tad bit of "wow, i really have neglected myself in an unsettling manner".

The more you focus on you the better you'll feel. The more you focus on her the worse you'll feel.

I had a moment there when I did not actually put that perspective on it. Those words right there hit the spot.

It is hard to not have a moment where I miss her, and wish I could still hug her. But I am a bit angry and saddened by everything and Imagine myself walking away from her without turning back. Then I remember, that is not what I want - if I can take a chance at happiness with her as opposed to without her.

One issue I have been having and working on; If i had to make a list of pro's to making this marriage work, I could write a list all day. But I think my key here is to work on a list of what I would do/want for me on the possibility that I don't stand a chance or reconciliation. At this moment, that list is small. I am working on that list - Finding a goal in life that does not involve her was never a consideration before, but now it must be.

I cannot let my fear of losing this marriage control my day to day. I must have a confidence that if I believe that I am that man that she deserves, then that is who I should be; but because that is the man I want to be and should have been - with or without her. A new perspective. A new beginning.

---D---
I'd like some input on my thoughts:

At one point I told myself that the biggest mistake I could make would be enabling her to spend time with the OM. For instance. If she calls me up and asks me to spend some time with the kids so that she could "go out", I felt I should say no if it meant to spend time with him.

Than I started thinking. The errors of this in my opinion: I am rejecting her decision by trying to keep them apart - my fighting against what she "wants". She will see that as me denying time with the kids and controlling her decisions, the kids as a tool. She's going to find a way anyway, and more fuel on the fire to affirm her decision to leave.

I have considered that the best option, is to spend as much time with the kids - period. Regardless of what she is doing - because they are my children and I want to be the best father I can. And this will come with perks (for added benefit, not for purpose).

Perks: knowing my prior inattentiveness with them, while on her "date" she will spend more time wondering how they are than enjoying the date. She may talk more about the children (and/or) me when with him - which he would not like. The kids will express what a fun time they had with daddy, and she will become jealous - I say this because her "addiction" to the OM has her spending less time with the kids (as I heard from her brother).

Again I am not using the kids, I seriously miss them and want to be better with them - regardless of what she is doing/thinking. I just believe that it has an air of reverse psychology to it. She will see my wanting to spend time with the kids and my seemingly "okay" attitude toward her being with the OM as confusing. She predicts my behavior to "fix us", to "stop" her seeing the OM, and this should confuse her or allow her to believe that I am accepting this situation.

Regardless of the outcome, I am going to spend all the time I can with them. But it is a good motivator to believe it should have a positive impact for us in time. And that it might "stress" their time together.

---E---
The idea of very quickly scares me a bit. I do not want to think that I would "understand" too much to fast and miss the finer points. But I have had the precious Bomb situation opened my eyes a lot, it just did not stick well.

I know in my brain what it is I need to do, and I have a fight going on with my heart. My heart wants to love her unconditionally, and my brain affirms that the unconditional also means without her.

I have a heart of magic i think, and sometimes I feel I owe her my life for having "dealt" with me for so long. But I realize i owe her something a bit different, and that is the respect and admiration that is the woman I loved. I neglected that. I pray that some day she comes to understand that regardless of what happens. But my heart still wants her in my life, albeit a bit selfish to only want her as my wife.

I know what I must do. I need reassurance and guidance to move on the right path. And the road to forgiveness, although a difficult one, must be met both ways and treadled confidently and carefully.

I have confidence in my ability to be the man I know I am. I will be that man, for myself. And I dream that she wants that man and will choose to love me because she wants to, not because she needs to.

I think people here would rather read your own words about what has been happening in the past 3 years. Is it possible for you to copy and paste your words and leave out the words of other people? It doesn't seem ethical to post other people's words here.

Your original post did not contain other people's words.

---F---
I wrote myself a letter.

10/22/2014

Here I find what I have done wrong. Through these years I have made my share of mistakes, over and over. They are a burden on me now that I realize the truest of my bad nature.

I have never been a good father. I would not say that I am a bad father, but I did not live or even strive for a potential of good. I have dreams of playing with my children, and fantasies of seeing them smile and loving them with every breath. But I never provided any action to make this happen. I was always too busy doing something, or nothing, else to spend time with them. I was inattentive and unavailable to their needs. I was a distant father.

For the longest time I admitted to myself that I treated my wife like a queen, serviced her every whim, and did all I could to make her happy. I never took note, that all I did was show love; but in all the wrong ways. I did not live up to the ability that was my wife�s expectations. Yes they were high, but I did not even reach for them. I abandoned my own duties and justified myself in why I did nothing. It is not so much that I was lazy, but when I was needed, or was asked, I denied, after saying yes. I let her down time and time again, with an agreement that I broke. Yes I did indeed forget, but I only forgot because I did not hold what she wanted from me with any importance. To her that meant I did not care about her wants and needs. I did not do everything for her as I originally thought. I abandoned her. I was lazy.

I did not want to work; I always told myself that it was because I wanted to be home with my family, to be with them and around them. Yet all the while I was not working, I watched TV, or slept on the couch. I did not take the kids outside to play, and when I did I sat there bored with nothing to do, instead of playing with them. I neglected making money, so that I could be lazy and bored. Then I complained about being bored and broke, when I am the one that placed me in that situation. I was a bad provider.

When it came to intimacy, I always wanted sex and never understood why she did not. I complained at her sex drive, and devalued the reasons she did not want intimacy. I forced myself on her, and did not take time to enjoy the moments; I did not provide the luxury of feeling love and tenderness that is the word intimacy. I was not romantic.

I followed her like a puppy, lost in my life. I had nothing to do for myself, no hobby or play. My every moment while she was around, I was glued to her hip and would not let her breath. I made it always bout spending time with her and being around her. I lost sight of the fact that she couldn�t breathe without my breathing her air. I did not respect her space.

I did not have confidence in my ability to be a good man. I always said you are an idiot for staying with me. I thought I was saying, thank you to her for staying with me even though I was not worth it. I never believed she�d leave me, and thought she�d love me forever � because she said she would. I did not earn her respect or her admiration. I somehow made it okay to do nothing, and expect everything in return. I took her for granted. I did not love myself. I did not earn her love. I did not deserve her.

I am not feeling pity, or remorse for my behavior. Instead I am recognizing my faults and learning how to correct them. I must do this for the sake of my own well being and health. For if I cannot overcome my faults as a person; I will never be a man, to her or anyone.

---G---
she got a protective order and then violated me. I was in jail 9 days, and the revised order was for No contact direct or indirect . so there was no way to arrange for seeing them. And she never offered or tried either. And she could have gone through several people for me to see them and she hasn't.

---H---
I don't mean to sound passive, if anything I am asking advice on what I should do. A year in jail is scary and I did not want to take that chance. My L is only for the protective order, and 1 of 2 things will happen at court today: it will be dismissed or extended. If it is dismissed I will let her know that I want to see our children and arrange a time. If it is extended then first thing tomorrow I am going to file for visitation. I want to see them, and I want them to see me. I want to shower them with love and all the love I did not show before.

I want to reassure them that I have always loved them, be open with them and play with them. I want them to be happy and know that this is not their fault and they will be loved regardless of what happens, and that I will never leave them.

Also, before I went to jail and this order was in place, I am Sure I would have made the mistake of using them as a tool. I mean that by asking about mommy's day and what she does and pry information out of them.

I feel that this distance from the W and the children, might have been one of the best things that could have happened. But now enough is enough, I am stronger and I have a clear head. My heart needs work, but my knowledge and understanding of what it is I need to do has come a very long way. I will fight for them, tooth and nail if I have to. I do not believe she will try to keep them from me, but I will fight if I have to.

---I---
Had court, the order was changed to allow contact with her (peaceful contact) regarding children only for 1 year, unless she dismisses the order. The best part of this, it "forces" me to follow the rules of this forum and DB'ing. I still hold hope and will be strong.

Since I do not expect that she will contact me, i believe I should file for visitation tomorrow morning.

Oh and I am also not allowed on the property of what used to be our home for any reason during that 1 year.

---J---
I saw my kids at the park yesterday, and I did not say anything to my W nor did I even acknowledge her - I was not rude, the moment was just never there. I played with them in ways that I always wanted to for an hour and a half, and I enjoyed every moment of it.

A bit later she called and we talked for a bit, and I made several mistakes on the call, this is before reading your post 25yearsmlc. I fell into my own trap for suggesting guilt to her for what she was doing, and she clammed right up.

Today she texted me to call her to discuss Halloween. I called her a few hours later and she said she did not want to go with me, either I could take them, or she would, but she did not want to go with me. Her voice was choked, cracking up like - but I did not say anything about it. I said I would take them and I'd be there about 5 to pick them up.

She said she did not want to go with me, because we should not be together - just then she sniffled - voice still cracked.

I said ok, I will pick them up at five, bye. and hung up the phone.

---K---
however be warm and loving when you are around her or interacting....which I'd agree with. Is that what you meant

^^exactly this. Not pursue, but sweet and charming at the appropriate moments.

Good insight ^^^....so how are you going to Behave differently to reflect this awareness?

I have come to a conclusion that my mistake is Facebook. I am constantly putting "my day" up there. I am not throwing it in her face, but after thinking about - that is all I have done. I have logged out of FB, and plan to stay out. I will only talk to her if she calls me for the children, or if I want to see them.

Btw, how was forgiveness modeled in your childhood? IF you saw it, what did it look like?

I am not sure. The man I am does not make sense due to what I remember of my childhood. I come from a broken home, my father was lazy, my mother divorced 4 times. We never lived in the same home for too long. I am not sure where my conceptual model of life comes from.


I think I found my other issue. My fear. I am afraid that she will not see my changes. I am afraid that she does not care, or have any feelings for me at all. I am afraid that she truly wants to be done and rid of me in the capacity I was. As of yet I have no real 'closure. Tomorrow scares me.

I know these are things I do not need to know right now, and some day I may find those answers. But I have to find strength to accept that today is today, and if destiny exists, or we are meant to be - then she will see/find what she wants to, when she wants to.

What I want more than anything is to restore my marriage to who I know the greatest woman in the world. And I have to face my fear. I have to walk this path with blind faith, without knowledge of what it will mean to her. I am terrified.

---L---
SO I had a wonderful 3 hours taking my children trick or treating. I did not mope, prod, spy, or even allow my oldest to talk about mommy. When I say allow, i simply said we don't need to talk about that, and swiftly brought up something else. I also did not say or imply that she should tell mommy anything about the evening. I just went with them and listened and enjoyed the time spent.

But I have one concern. When I asked my daughter (oldest - 9) how she has been. She said mostly happy , but sometimes sad. then she volunteered that mommy was sad the other day. I just asked what do you mean. she said and I quote, "mommy was sad that her boyfriend might not love her". I dismissed it and changed the topic.

---M---
Where do I find the strength to hold on. The will to endure what hurts more than any pain. i sit here with knowledge and understanding that I have never known before. Yet my heart cannot fathom the wrongdoings that both I an my wife have caused each other. While I accept that my ways hardened her heart and gave her a reason to give up, I do not take blame for her actions.

I try to accept a future where we are together, and a future where we are not. The one where we are not is painful to accept, but it is understood. The one where we are is blissful, and terrifying. There will be so much to accept and get over, so much to endure and overcome.

I cannot have an absolute of whether she will find her heart with me again. I have no way to know when the affair will end, or how long it will take her to reason whether we can begin anew. I can accept this chance, but having hope at the same time I know the truth of what is happening with her and that man.

My love for her is unconditional, I made a vow of for better or worse. This is by far the worst it could be. I must be strong enough to stand by her through this time she is struggling to find whatever it is she is looking for. But to stand by while watching her destroy everything She once held dear, is not an easy burden to bear.

There are some truths I understand. I know that there is a very high chance her affair will end. I know that some day, even if years she will have regrets, and I high chance our loss will be one of them. Her irrationality will clear up in time, and she will begin to understand more clearly.

I find myself fighting with how long I can "wait" for these things to happen. I tell myself to let go and live and allow life to continue. Then I become sad again. I pick myself up and try to accept her decision, to accept that she believes she is doing what she must; and yet I posses the knowledge that she is hurting herself - and I cannot save her.

I do not know what she is thinking, I do not understand what she feels. I cannot understand her justifications or how she can rationalize what she is doing. I may never understand why she cannot see her children future as this event unfolds. But I also understand that these are things I do not need to know. My knowledge of them would change nothing, nor would that knowledge help me heal from my own pain.

It is okay to be afraid, and I will not let that fear control me. A small part of me feels like I want to fight with fire, to retaliate by any means. Then I remember that I love her, and try to accept that she is struggling with pain as well. Does she know she is in pain I wonder.

I know to let go, to live life and find a happy place. My heart misses her and wants to protect her, to save her.This internal battle at times feels like it will destroy me. I am broken, but only my heart, not my soul. I do not want to wait, I want it to stop; patience while watching what disgusts me feels wrong. But when I gather everything that is, and was, I remember that I choose to love her. I accept my choice and must live by it, for better .... or worse.

---N---
3 1/2 years ago, I gained some insight, but it was only 2 months before we got back together. Life did not hit me as hard then as I thought it did. I claimed I was better, but at the time i was still wallowing in self pity, nothing really changed.

When she took me back, things were new again-ish. and it made everything feel good. For the first year or so everything was so good we did nothing to fix the original issues that caused the break. However there was one difference. I gave up control, all of it. She was in control, I did not argue with her decision, and always let her have the last word.

Looking at that now - there was a power dynamic at play and her expectations became higher and higher. I was not able to reach them, and I believe I eventually gave up (unconsciously I believe).

I know I am wallowing, but I am doing it on here, and not to her - I am crying out of sight. I have not posted on Facebook in near a week. I have not texted her in any way, and my responses are simple. My emotions were controlling me completely until about a week ago.

I prayed for peace, and the pain in my chest left the next day. I prayed for strength, and my mind was clearer to know what I needed to do.

Frankly, I understand what you say "The wallowing and the neediness and tears of self pity about YOUR loss" - I agree that this needs to stop. But at what point does it matter that I am to lose everything that I held dear. Yes I am losing a lot, but I am gaining knowledge - there is nothing greater. I am not asking for pity, deserved or not. I understand that my own actions, or lack of, put me where I am - but as I have said - it was not a good marriage, but it was by far not bad - but again my perspective only.

She has lost a lot too - when does that become apparent to her. I know I cannot point out what she is losing. I know what she is losing.

"You want to be a man only a fool would leave. What are you DOING to become that man?"

I am a man that would walk the end of the earth for her - this she already knows. I am working my butt off at work, and am in line for a promotion and a pay raise - to a position that I will enjoy at work, so I will be happy to work and provide. I am talking to my children in a way that i have never done before because I missed out on this, I have much to make up for. Their smiles make me happier than I thought they would. When we were out on Halloween, I got to see them in a way I never had before - it may very well have been the first time I was with them without the W outside the home.

I do not live in the home. I have no friends or family that we have mutual contact with. I have no vehicle, so I do not go anywhere often, or very far. The Only changes she will see, will be through our children. I WILL NOT use them as a tool, but feel at a disadvantage that she will be blind to these changes for a long while.

I have always been this man, I was just selfish and lazy. Looking back I had no reason to be selfish or lazy, so I have abandoned both of those qualities. But again, these changes are for me and the future of my children; yet still I do them knowing she may never notice.

My crying and wallowing I do on here because I like to express what I feel. I like to talk and listen. This is what inspires me to learn more. I do not post on here words of eloquence looking for remorse. No different than an author who writes on his own life events. I like words and what they can express, but I enjoy more the replies, and the wisdom they assist me in obtaining.

Looking back I agree, most women might have left me - but this is where I have said before, my perspective is not entirely incorrect. I am and always was charming ans sweet, smart and caring - I was just inconsistent. I did love her, and showed it to her, it just was not enough to overcome the rest. She waited for me to change, I did not.

I am different today than 3 years ago - Then at the first moment she wanted me back I got a plane the next day and went home. I did not fully understand my flaws, nor did I work on the ones I did. She had not realized Any of hers, and had no time to think of anything.

The OM she was seeing emotionally then, had moved 3 hours away and was not able to be with her. The moment she realized that she called me and asked me to come home. She was still on control and I ran back without fixing even 1 issue. We were happy because we were both pretending the past was over - we were Both wrong.

---O---
Either you are misunderstanding me, or you are presuming I am just sitting here typing and hoping for a quick fix.

I am going to be blunt: Several times in this forum I have stated my problems. Our conversations are nothing more than me tearing open all the wounds and explaining why each was there - Mine And my wife's. Every time there is a reply I feel more badgered by my expressions than by the fact that I understand.

I have learned and understood my mistakes, I have owned them, and feel that I am still being punished by all the responses here. I am owning my mistakes. And I promise by myself and God that I will never make these mistakes again - regardless of my chances with my wife.

No I have not actually made a list of "to do's" for my future, but that does not mean I do not know what I want, or Need to do.

When I asked to speak to 25 off the board it was not intended for a hand holding, it was meant for a conversation that is near impossible on this forum. Actual communication. Nothing more.

I am broke I cannot afford a car at the moment. I am working overtime and even got a promotion, that I start on the 9th. In time I will get a vehicle. I have literally a dollar in the bank, and a ton of bills. Making a point, not asking for pity.

Yes I talk the talk - and I am trying my darnedest to walk it. Mistake after mistake i got it. I would love to apologize for not doing it right 3 years ago. I am tired of apologizing, I want to do it now. And I will - for me, and for my children. If she sees that wants to reconcile - all the better.

I never aid I was not going to make these changes if she does not notice, I just have a lot of curiosity. Character flaw? perhaps.

And no I will never blame DB'ing - ever. This forum has done nothing to steer me wrong, and I would not blame it for any reason. My own actions are to blame for the outcome of my life - I get that. My questions are for understanding, not justification. I am not trying to get answers to make what I need to do be easier.

Yes I do still love her, regardless that she is with the OM, just as I would love my child if he/she were an alcoholic - but that does not mean I cannot express disappointment - since I know it to be wrong, unhealthy, and damaging in the long run - especially to our children. Yes I still love her, and if she asked me to do something I would. I don't intend her "blame" to be negative, just that I want some day - regardless of outcome - for her to admit and own her own faults - but that by far will not change whether I love her.

I attempted to show her that I would walk to the end of the earth. Obviously I failed. I did not show enough, regardless of all that I did wrong, I always showed compassion. When she had a bad day I listened and did not judge. I was still sweet and charming and made my life about her. Too much in fact because I was suffocating her - again a mistake.

"When are you going to get serious and actually do something?"
I AM doing it. And if you do not think so, then say specifics.

I am working more and diligently, I am getting a promotion and a raise. I am making plans to see my children more than once per week. I have stopped trying to pursue and get my wife to notice. I have stopped wondering where and what she is doing all day. I do not call my few friends to cry and pout about my feelings. I walk to the store once per day (15 blocks) just to get air and see the sun. I have no car and live in a crappy town with nothing exciting to do. Everything fun is in 30 miles in any direction. When I have a car, I will be happy to do more. You will probably call that an excuse, but I am not walking 30 miles.

I WILL be and STAY a better man. Because I am. I have not learned everything. But I know my mistakes, I understand SO much more than I ever did. I write myself letters and re read them just to hear myself talk, and then rewrite it then put it away.

I will not make these mistakes again - with her or without.
(the response to this was that I was not being berated, rather challenged.)

---P---
"I do sense you want some form of guarantee that you WILL get her back if you do X and Y, and it simply does not work that way."

Yeah, i knew it, it's just something I did not want to accept.

See, I don't get this^^. I see your wife's actions as unfortunate BUT not incomprehensible at all. Nor do I see her actions as "unhealthy", although I must concede, I don't know the OM. But if he is kind to her, and attentive to the kids and would make a good provider, then I could argue that her choice is quite rational.

I think what I really mean by this is he is married, he cheated on his wife 2x. I know it does not matter. But I think a part of me wants to believe that they are doomed to fail. Not that it would result in us together - just Not him being her happiness. Selfish I think.

You didn't know that moms want the dads to spend time alone with the kids?

I did, but it was always in home. I never took them to the park or the store (all 3 at once). And when we were home , I didn't do alot then either. I mean I did play with them, it was just sporadic, and not nearly as much as it could have been. I was not a bad father, just not a very good one.

About her faults. I understand. I know I am not 100% blame. I might need more help with this yet.

When did you attempt that? How did you fail? Can you elaborate on how sweet you were to her?

When it came to things that were immediate I would not hesitate. I.E going to the store to get her something. Moving a piece of furniture. Fixing something that was broken. I would always hold her hand or let her grab my arm when we would walk. i never missed a kiss before one of us left the house. I always said I love you, and called her beautiful. I used to thank her, several times a week - she'd ask why, I'd say "for loving me". I kiss her forehead at least once a day. When we hugged, I'd move her hair and kiss her neck.

I don't think you made your life about her so much as you placed your needs in her lap. Can you see why I'd say that?

I agree.. the things that mattered were helping cleaning the house. the mess in the back yard and the basement. My desk was always a mess. I didnt vaccuumm, dishes, garbage. I mean i did them, but late or delayed, after nagging. I was not dilligent.

And as for the Bills - all our money was in a joint account . .i never bought anything for myself--save for cigarettes or soda. every other penny i made when to whatever needed to be paid. .Seriously . i never had any money. . didnt need it.

And the last post to paste with substance:

Everyone has to look at their individual stitch and see how things need to be applied.

I am not sure what conversation you want to have with her. Does she still have a RO against you?

The RO was lifted now it is a Court Order - My lawyer stated that a RO is like a sword - touch it you get cut. But a Court order is like a shield - It specifically says that "peaceful contact about the welfare of the children" - for 1 year...... but lawyer says if she chooses to talk to me thats ok, but what is said cannot be in any way inferred as hostile or threatening. Which it wouldnt be, no interest in being hurtful toward her.

Are you referring to just being courteous and speaking? Having a civil discussion about plans with the kids or whatever?

No, I think we have that ok - i mean once every 2 days and only about 3 texts, but it's there. My original question after thinking about it was stupid I think. She thinks she's in love with the OM - nothing I could possibly say would matter - regardless of how true or real it was.

The idea behind the "rule" is to guide the LBS in the beginning of all this, and to hopefully help with detaching. But I think the one you may be referring to is this one:

"When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad."

As you'll notice, it is targeting couples who are still living under the same roof.

Yes, we are not living under the same roof. And that is my fault. I was not emotionally strong enough - and I knew it. I decided to leave to give her space and time - at the time I did not know of the OM at all. Moving out was a huge mistake, but at the time, I thought staying would have been due to my emotional roller coaster.

What bugs me is that now we are not under the same roof, there is NO communication at all regarding the sitch. If thats expected than Ill accept it. I think that it makes this much harder. And since she is having an Exit Affair - it is evident that she is conflict avoidant - she will hide behind that court order until she is ready to talk, or the affair dies.

Sir,

The first thing you need to do is stop following the advice on the Divorce Busting forum.
They do not have a plan for recovery from an affair and restoring romantic love.

Dr. Harley DOES have a plan, detailed in his book Surviving an Affair

Your posting is difficult to read through.
Is your wife having an affair at this time?

Yes and I a sorry for the posts, I just started a copy paste brigade. Yes she is in the fog of a PA right now.

Have you exposed her affair to family and friends?
Have you exposed to your children?
Have you exposed to the OM family and friends?

You are joking, right? We are supposed to read through the posts of other people on another forum? No thanks. If you want help here, just type out your situation and let others respond. Make your post short and to the point. We don't need a lot of information to get it.

I give this very little hope because she is a serial cheater, but this is where you should begin. Expose her affair to the workplace, using the instructions in my exposure thread AND expose to the OM's wife and his family.

You need to chose NOW whether you want to protect the job or save your marriage. You cannot have both, so make your choice. Protecting her job so you can have her money comes at the expense of your marriage because recovery is impossible as long as she works there.

Take your pick: marriage or job.

And even if you choose to save the marriage, that is a huge longshot. She is a serial cheater and this is a way of life for her. It will take a radical change on her part to fix this and I seriously doubt she will ever agree to that.

Have you PERSONALLY spoken to his wife?

And why have you not contacted his family?