I'll given a listen this weekend, but I think we are getting a lot of UA time in.

I pretty sure its safe to say we are easily hitting the 15 hours a week, but it wouldn't hurt me to take another look to see if we can get more time in.

Just wanted to say congrats on everything so far. So awesome to read stories where things work out.

Dr. Harley recommends to sit down on Sundays and to schedule your UA time for the week. Will you do this with your W?

Thanks it seems to be working out because its something we both want and are both working hard at.

Yes, we kind of already do this, but its more about the upcoming weeks events and things that need to get done. So going forward we will just make sure we add UA time as one of the things that must get done.

I think I get your point now, the more of this time we have the less I will feel the need to check up. Thanks.

Exactly!! The more you build a romantic, interdependent, complete transparent marriage the less you will need to check. We tell BS to keep up the snooping to verify NC. The more recovered your marriage the safer you will begin to feel.

Make that UA time as important as you would a doctor's appointment. Stay the course, friend.

I think we have had a great couple of months, we have been spending lots of time together and really enjoying each other�s company, even during a couple of stressful situations we have had to manage, not marriage or affair related. They were just the kind of things life throws at you, but we attacked them as partners and got the issues handled.

We took a weeklong vacation down to the Keys with a group of friends last month and had one of the best "just us" vacations either of us can recall. It was great because it was with a group of friends that didn't have to be together all the time, so we got a lot of alone time in addition to social time with the people who are the strongest supporters of us rebuilding our marriage.

I think it�s safe to safe we are in better place then we have been in a long time, now she is suggesting dates for us to go on. So that brings me to some questions.

When does Plan A evolve into In Recovery and is there any are real difference once both partners are engaged in the marriage as the two seem to get interchanged here a lot. Does recovery ever end and you find yourself in a new normal for the marriage, i.e. one based on the MB principals.

Also, I would like to hear some thoughts about this:
For the 1st time in a couple of months, I recently had a weird twinge of self-doubt and insecurity but not because of my wife, but because I learned of a few �friends� who not only knew something was going and choose to gossip among themselves about it, but not clue me in. I feel that was a betrayal on par with the affair. Am I wrong in feeling that way. As one tried to defend themselves by saying how to you tell someone you think their wife is cheating. My answer was the same way you talk about it behind their back, but if you are true friend you tell them straight up what you observed or know. So for now they are out of my life and I don�t know if they could ever regain my trust beyond being acquaintances who I might talk to at social events when our paths cross.

They would be dead to me. I would not acknowledge them. Though I would go NC with them. You know they will be there you don't go. You run into them you quietly leave.

Has your wife sent a NC letter to her AP (that you have witnessed and verified) along with agreeing to EPs and a plan of recovery?



These people are ENEMIES of your marriage and you should cut them off entirely.

An affair is the highest possible threat to the survival of your marriage that they could have been in a position to help you with and if they were too cowardly or indifferent to do so, they are like cancer to your recovery and marriage going forward.

This will continue to bother you if you try to maintain a relationship. They have to go. You can replace them with friends who support your marriage and have moral courage.

I think every BS goes through this process of finding out who in their social circle has moral courage and who does not. It's unfortunate because you are correct, it is like a second betrayal and the cumulative effect can be tremendous.

They failed the biggest test you could have given them. Ditch 'em. Don't have to be spiteful about it, but leave them behind. There are too many good and honorable people in the world for you to waste any time on people who you know aren't either of those things.

I've befriended a few awesome pro-marriage couples from my church in the fallout of my situation and it really feels good to have both a fresh start and the type of moral support you need after something like this. I don't miss the people I've left behind and you probably won't either.

I'd also add that you'll notice quite a contrast going from your friends who enabled the affair to people who would never do so.

The enablers will gaslight you in their own way, trying to make excuses for your WW (or themselves), along with trying to convince you that there is some sort of defensible "middle ground" in this sort of thing that they stood on. Basically they're going to try to convince you that you are overzealous and it will make you feel like terrible and conflicted because your conscience will be screaming at you in contradiction to their words.

And then when you find a pro-marriage couple to befriend, you'll usually find that not only do they agree with you, they've got OTHER friends (or experience themselves) who are BSes and can practically finish your sentences because they are so well acquainted with what the BS has to suffer through. They will be a Godsend to you, and you'll know it when you see it.

My $.02.

Thanks TheRoad & axslinger85.
We have been essentially in NC with them since the decision was made to fight for the marriage, intuitively I knew they wouldn�t be a part of the support system I needed to get through this, so I just stopped talking to them. Also, it seems those who are supportive of our marriage have eliminated them from their lives, I guess it was a situation of once true colors are known good people didn�t want to associate with them. So as far social events at friend�s houses and close gatherings I am not worried about running into them. However, our town does have a lot of events and places to go out to that we could cross paths at and I won�t leave because they show up, I will just continue to ignore them. I guess I just really wanted to get validation I wasn�t being vindictive, but protective of the marriage.


When I first exposed I got 2 different reactions from people, some gave a simple ok or the patronizing "sorry to hear that" but they didn't seem at all shocked or surprised. I generally had no further conversations with them and neither has my wife. As I mentioned to her what I discovered her reaction was interesting, first she seemed embarrassed that they were not as discrete as they thought and then I sensed an anger from her that they allowed her to travel a destructive road for their entertainment.

Then there were others that were shocked or reacted angrily. Those who were shocked or angry the follow up statement usually went something like �we love you and XXXX (my wife), what are WE going to do� At that moment I knew I wasn�t in this alone and who would be my support system going forward. These are also the same people who urged me to �man up� and fight for the marriage and the family and not to walk away. Rather than casting fury at my wife for being wayward, they urged her to end the affair and offered her support to save the marriage without judgment about what had been done.


Earlier in the thread I talked about the NC letter that I hand delivered to the OM and after he read it informed him of my intention to save the marriage. We have done the EN's, so this is the piece we might need more information on, EP's and plan of recovery? We have discussed how we will protect our marriage in the future but I suspect that isn't a plan of recovery.

ThePhoenix, this is the most important paragraph on this page, because it is critical for your recovery. Most marriages do not recover from infidelity because they don't follow these steps. After the gloss wears off they end up in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage and are more vulnerable to an affair afterwards. When recovery does not take place, the resentment of the betrayed spouse thrives and grows year after year. You don't have to be like that if you will follow this program.

I would follow the program for recovery outlined in Surviving an Affair and use the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Please do not make the mistake of cherry picking the program, because that will not help you in the least. Trust me, because many of us have tried that. Learn the program in its entirety: eliminate love busters, spend 15+ hours per week of undivided attention time OUT ON DATES, learn how to use the policy of joint agreement.

If you can do this on your own, you will create a romantic, passionate marriage. If you can't do it on your own, then I strongly suggest you sign up for the Marriage Builders program and let a professional guide you and your wife.

Whatever you do, don't stop now. The real work should start now.

I haven't read the latest posts on your thread (I apologise), so I cannot say yet whether your own marriage is ready to move on from Plan A to Recovery. I will try and catch up later today.

However, in principle, Plan A ends when the affair ends and your wife agrees to join you in rebuilding the marriage. If the affair ends because she's been dumped, but she's still moping around and rejecting you, you are not entering Recovery. Recovery is joint effort, while Plan A is not. Plan A is one sided, because you are doing all you can to avoid love busters and meet those needs that your wife will allow you meet (i.e. - possibly none), but you have no expectation that she will reciprocate. Plan A is an extreme form of giving and it is not sustainable indefinitely, nor should there be any attempt to sustain indefinitely.

When your wife agrees to work on the marriage (i.e., enter Recovery), she might do so with very little enthusiasm or hope, because she might still be depressed about the whole affair, or about the state of the marriage that preceded it - but it is not enthusiasm that defines Recovery. It is the fact that it is a joint effort.

In Recovery, both spouses commit to transparency and accountability, to UA time, and to avoiding love busters and meeting ENs. They agree to listen respectfully to each other's complaints, and to tackle those complaints. They learn how to negotiate safely, and, crucially, they learn and practice POJA.

There is a list that is often posted here, that I don't have to hand, that is taken from the SaA book. That is the definition of what couples should do in Recovery.

I think you will agree that there is a great difference between Plan A and Recovery. As to when Recovery ends; the couple maintains a Recovery marriage for life. Since this is the marriage that they should always have practiced, in a sense there is no end to Recovery, but the marriage does not have to be defined as "in recovery" for life. Recovery is identical to an ideal, MB marriage.

I'll pick the books up and read them, hopefully she will to. Since this was a rekindle of a previous affair with the same OM, I know full well not to cherry pick, but stick to what has been proven to work. While I wasn't on this site last time I was trying to end the affair with access to these resources, you can say what I did was a cherry pick of these principals, but more accurately it was a haphazard application of disjointed information I picked up from the various web sites and friendly advice. It resulted in ending the affair, but without true exposure and with me being very resentful and demanding of "compensation". It also became the nuclear bomb I dropped to win arguments. While we had a good few years I was the classic bitter spouse who in hindsight can see she was making efforts early on and I was rejecting her and practicing love busters and then by the time I was trying she had given up and we limped along in the crippled pre-affair version of the marriage that brought us to here. Considering the success I have had this time to this point following these principals, no cherry picking for me.

Not sure why, but I have no resentment this time around, I think part of it is the A has been exposed so I am not living with a secret or its pain and when she decided it was over she came back all in.

To be honest this survey scares me �Sexual Experience Inventory�, when we first married she was only 19 and her experience was normal for a person of that age, I fear I may learn things done with OM that I may not want to know about. However, I guess if we don�t experience the uncomfortable from time to time we are not growing and not doing it would be cherry picking.

Not sure if there is enough detail in prior posts for you to get an accurate sense of where we are at, I will honestly answer any questions you have that could help you decide. In the meantime based on what I read in the rest of your response maybe some this information will help.

There has been complete transparency even when I haven't asked for it as well as me giving it, as for her love busters they are easy for me to avoid. No bringing up the affair or being judgmental because of the past, including her in financial decisions, which I always did but it's the perception of me telling her what I think we should do instead of asking for her opinion, easy change since we almost always are in sync there. Don't try to be controlling and be supportive of her decisions, only if I agree enthusiastically, otherwise we negotiate lovingly until we both agree what is best and as silly as it seems closing the closet door (yes really) after I get dressed, for some reason an open closet door really bothers her. Being a guy my love busters are pretty simple, putting others before me or making me feel like I am not a priority was a big one, well lately she has made me feel like I am the biggest priority in her life, so I couldn�t be happier.

We easily spend the 15+ hours of UA time by having planned and spontaneous dates.

In general our home just feels happier and we get a lot more invites to go out with other people now.

TP, I tell you this from personal experience: don't fly by the seat of your pants here, because half measures will avail you nothing. I say this as a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks. I wasted 6 good years yapping on this forum and cutting corners and never moved my marriage forward. We limped along for years.

So I will share with you what I learned from going through the Marriage Builders program: schedule 15+ hours per week out on dates. Don't wing it. Time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off. Once you fall back in love you will quickly notice a difference. And if you get 8-10 hours, you will notice it has little positive effect on your marriage. Strictly stick to 15+ hours per week b y scheduling your time. If you do this for a few months, it will become the most enjoyable time of your week and you won't allow other, less important things to interfere with your time.

Since the program DOES NOT WORK without this step, you and your wife need to sit down every Sunday and plan out your week using this worksheet. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf


I would tell your friends you are busy and do something more important: go out on 4 - 4 hour dates. I know my H and I rarely have time to go out with friends because we would rather spend our time alone. Please don't squander valuable time with friends that could be spent on dates!

MelodyLane I appreciate all the advice and effort you have put into helping us move forward, so thank you.

We actually plan our upcoming week on Saturday afternoons since that works for us. We always get a huge chunk of time together on Sundays since that is reserved for just us recreational type activities. With riding season here we can be out of the house together for 6 to 8 hours easily but only put 4 hours into our allocation because that includes travel time and our destinations vary. Then we pick 3 nights in the upcoming week that are our nights to get out of the house and do something. Since our kids are past the age of needing babysitters we then have flexibility to do things spontaneously on top of that.


One of her lover busters was not getting out of the house enough socially, so this needs to stay in the mix. We just don�t count this as UA time when we plan our week

Gotcha. That will work as long as it doesn't interfere with your alone time. When she falls in love again, she will be much more stingy about any time with friends/family.

It sounds like you are on the right track! Good job!

People like that are toxic influences. They do no one any good to have around. Cut them loose and don't worry about it for a minute.

***edit***

Non-MB advice. Please familiarize yourself with MB or refrain from posting